Pathfinder

[solar tendon]

kind obvious in retrospect

[frank crystal]

Yah with a name like that

[sinful gyro]

Yeah like, max int, dump dex, wis and char, take some strength and con. You even get int healing so no need for wisdom

[solar tendon]

yeah but also I mean it's the thing that champ doesn't go hard on

[warped orbit]

getting to RK about any creature with Warfare is also pretty good

[light gyro]

executioner's volley is pretty fun. "Resistance??? fuck it boys, just keep shooting til something happens"

[frank crystal]

Oh for sure yah

[warped orbit]

with Int KAS

[limber comet]

It is cool we are getting more..."bog standard" martials if that makes sense

[solar tendon]

lore: fighting things good

[frank crystal]

I’m just saying they both seem to fill a similar tactical niche

[clever cobalt]

Also, Iconics

[frank crystal]

They punish enemies for attacking anyone but them

[clever cobalt]

Gonna guess that's a Dwarf Guardian

[limber comet]

Nope

[sinful gyro]

It's not inscrutible, i'm blocking the arrows

[clever cobalt]

Not sure who the Commander Iconic is

[limber comet]

That's art from highhelm

[clever cobalt]

Or what

Oh is it?

Interesting

[limber comet]

At least the one on the right

Yeah

No iconics yet

Tragically

[sinful gyro]

Your banner can heal to? Jeez

[frank crystal]

There’s the orc lady in guardian

[crystal walrus]

Thunk

[light gyro]

lmao both the legendary tactics are fun

[barren cipher]

power attack that uh

[light gyro]

tpk? nah

[barren cipher]

breaks your armour

[clever cobalt]

So

It's Warlord but even cooler

(Commander I mean)

[barren cipher]

slightly questioning the usefulness of that one

[warped orbit]

weird that they don't let it work out of combat

[limber comet]

She's from somewhere else too

[clever cobalt]

Balance reasons

[sinful gyro]

I don't need no necromancy

[clever cobalt]

Most likely

[frank crystal]

Damn

[warped orbit]

it just seems pointless when we already have so many trivial out of combat heals

[limber comet]

The iconic art for playtests is always just a sketch

[warped orbit]

just let Commander do it too
I don't see why they specifically need to be blocked

[sinful gyro]

Out of combat you can just like, healing kit them

Treat them wounds

[frank crystal]

Why do clerics spend years learning to raise the dead when you can just do it with a cool flag

Are they stupid?

[warped orbit]

I guess they did it for flavor reasons?
but that also just seems odd to me

[frank crystal]

Also yah that seems

Bad

Like actively so

I get guardian doesn’t seem to have many other damage feats but at that point just like

Use a weapon

[limber comet]

Oh cool

Guardian makes every 2h weapon into a parry weapon

[barren cipher]

yeah i think i'll just strike twice and not get -2 ac -1 reflex and have to make a bunch of checks to repair it

[limber comet]

Or has a feat that does so, rather

[frank crystal]

Also it does seem like dex guardian isn’t really a thing

[barren cipher]

it's absolutely not yeah

[frank crystal]

They only have str for a key score and everything they use needs medium and heavy armor

[fossil temple]

oh, Commander is a class not an archetype
huh

[limber comet]

LOL

[warped orbit]

hmm, looking at the offensive tactics, I kinda question the use of Double Team when Strike Hard is already there

[limber comet]

I mean, it was announced as a class playtest

[fossil temple]

Counterpoint:
I don't follow the announcement :V

[echo briar]

We already had marshal for the architype

[warped orbit]

how often do you really need to move someone a little first before giving the extra Strike

[limber comet]

I literally have a twitter only to follow ttrpg announcements

[fossil temple]

I mean yes, but Marshal didn't had the banner thingy

[warped orbit]

oh Piranha Assault is pretty sick

[barren cipher]

you can just coordinating maneuvers + strike hard for basically the same money

[warped orbit]

yeah I don't really get Double Team

if it was a Trip, that would make more sense

[barren cipher]

if they could both strike i might roll the dice on it

[sinful gyro]

A grapple Guardian sounds so fuckin rad

[barren cipher]

yeah i think shield only guardian might be pretty good

[sinful gyro]

Tower shield?

[frank crystal]

Get everstand stance

[river flicker]

Someone in another Discord I'm in has already complained about these two classes but for a very stupid reason: "they're unrealistic". Asked if they were just being a goofball, nope

[warped orbit]

huge boon for single enemy fights
you can just more or less ignore a lot of resistances

[fossil temple]

think the Commander will be MAD in stats?

[sinful gyro]

Everstand lets you punch people with sheilds when you block iirc

[warped orbit]

nah

you need Int, some Str if you want heavy armor and decent Strikes, and Con

[sinful gyro]

You've seen what a good everstand stance can do 😛

[barren cipher]

remove all unrealistic classes imo

the books will be a lot shorter

[sinful gyro]

People often think Taunt abilities are too videogamey ime

[echo briar]

Whats their thoughts on wizards?

[sinful gyro]

Commander is also sorta like that

[limber comet]

Taunt abilities are so fun though

[sinful gyro]

But, who cares, it's a class fantasy

[fossil temple]

Pirate Commander...

[warped orbit]

every time martials are allowed to do cool stuff, these people come out of the woodwork

[barren cipher]

nobody complains about small unit tactics in shadowrun

[fossil temple]

A class being unrealistic is the most lazy and barebones complaint someone can do in a ttprpg V:

[river flicker]

"Magic is already established as being a consistent force that mages can do. These classes imply that anyone can just scream at someone to heal them"

[barren cipher]

(possibly because there's so much more to complain about)

[warped orbit]

correct

[echo briar]

I mean, they need to be 8th level to do that. You have already left the realm of realism at that point

[sinful gyro]

REF, illegal tackle, you're off the pitch

[light gyro]

"Tactics aren't real" I assure myself as I close my eyes and ram the phalanx with my shitty dragon

[solar tendon]

a legendary thief can disarm a black hole

[frank crystal]

Your GM gives you a yellow card and a warning

[river flicker]

a Barbarian can scream someone to death

[solar tendon]

but also hp has never been good at doing injury haha

[warped orbit]

and Rogues can also phase through solid walls by being really acrobatic

[frank crystal]

You can’t?

[sinful gyro]

lamo, just some insane level 20 stuff

[barren cipher]

this is a good feat.

[light gyro]

RETURN OF TUNNEL FIGHTER

[warped orbit]

Boundless Reprisals making a return, nice

[solar tendon]

boundless reprisals is stonks

[warped orbit]

it's already amazing on Fighters

[frank crystal]

You can just waste enemies AOOs on you

That’s so cool

[clever cobalt]

Can't wait to use Commander in Kingmaker :v

[barren cipher]

hekatonkheires btfo by level 4 feat

[warped orbit]

okay this is good
now please also give this to Investigator

[frank crystal]

Commander archetype bby

[clever cobalt]

Both classes are great

Even if neither really fits my playstyle

[fossil temple]

I am way more excited for the commander than the exemplar, holyfuck

[clever cobalt]

You like?

[warped orbit]

oh damn, Medic Commander is looking good tbh

[clever cobalt]

Frontline healer let's go

[fossil temple]

I love it

[clever cobalt]

How does it compare to the 4e Warlord?

Is it similar?

[warped orbit]

ish

it does also focus on granting allies extra movement and actions mostly

I also foresee just slapping Strike Hard onto your melee buddy being the bread and butter of this class

[fossil temple]

We have the Action Economy
And The Commander is the CEO of big banks Economy /j

[light gyro]

I get it's a cludge to fix action hand economy but this visual is so silly.
"Hang on clang let me just clang apply pressure to your clang arm, uh, I'll fix your face later sorry"

[warped orbit]

give your other melee martial a free full bonus attack

[clever cobalt]

I do find the scaling Warfare Lore interesting

[frank crystal]

Also it is neat that we’re getting 2 more supportive martials in the martials book

[clever cobalt]

It'll be useful in the inevitable War AP we get :v

[fossil temple]

Swashbuckler crying in the corner

[warped orbit]

Commander also gets the fast animal companion progression for their mount feat line for some reason

though they only get the independent action at 10

[fossil temple]

So guardian the class will be "Bastion, turbo mode"

[clever cobalt]

Finally my Spymaster Character Idea has a proper class :v

Yeah

[fossil temple]

Champion just lost ALL respect /n

[barren cipher]

it's the slow one no?

[clever cobalt]

Guardian/Commander dual class

[barren cipher]

1, 6, 10 vs beastmaster's 2, 4, 8

[warped orbit]

oh you're right, I misremembered

still faster than Champion though

[barren cipher]

poor champion

i just took cav and blade ally lol

[warped orbit]

the correct choice tbh

Steed ally just sucks unfortunately

[barren cipher]

what else are you gonna do with your level 2 feat, declare unending war against dragons? that seems hard

the only thing it has going for it is that you can get a flying mount

[clever cobalt]

The Oaths vary wildly in use depending on the campaign

[barren cipher]

at 20

[clever cobalt]

When you probably already have flight

Or something to that amount

Hmm, do you think a Dex Commander would be better than a Str Commander?

[warped orbit]

okay I know this is level 20
but lmaoooo

[clever cobalt]

Given you're less likely a frontliner

[fossil temple]

champion feats sometimes have the same 'problem' ranger has for me
they aren't that exciting (for me)

[clever cobalt]

Only one turn though

Sadly

[warped orbit]

they have a few ranged focused things, if you'd want to focus on those

[fossil temple]

While Guardian and Commander
GOD
I want them so bad
in 2 years maybe they will be released cries

[warped orbit]

at +4, one turn can be all you need

[clever cobalt]

GENCON 2025

Is what the doc says they're release around

[frank crystal]

That’s only

1 year

[fossil temple]

neat :3c

[clever cobalt]

Less than one year technically

But yeah

[warped orbit]

alright, let me look at Guardian

[thorny berry]

Gut check after reading: commander looks sick, wouldn't be surprised if some of its stuff is considered a bit much.

Guardian just... doesn't really excite me with its mechanics tbh

[warped orbit]

okay you just get armor spec from level 1, that's pretty good

[sinful gyro]

Cholomunga can do this at ll0

[clever cobalt]

I can't wait to make my Mana Waste Fleshwarp a Commander

Destined to create a city in the Mana Wastes

[warped orbit]

finally a martial can also do it after Kineticist could already do it

[sinful gyro]

Having played similar stuff, I think it's actually very fun to play

You just sorta control combat

[barren cipher]

i think guardian is probably solid if everyone else insists on playing spellcasters and archers or something

[fossil temple]

Guardian Tldr; /j

[clever cobalt]

You also get Mighty Bulwark at 8

Which is super useful when you don't use Dex

Hmm

Do you think a Guardian/Fighter Dual Class could work well?

Or do they intersect too much

[sinful gyro]

I don't see why not

But I'd probably save it for lastwall archtype

[clever cobalt]

Fair

[sinful gyro]

Cos of everstand stance etc

[limber comet]

Overall satisfied with my initial look at these classes

They fit the fantasy

[clever cobalt]

Commander/Fighter could also work well

I honestly think a Gnoll Commander/Fighter would work well

[surreal basin]

Commander’s Steed is such a good feat

[fossil temple]

Commander Kobold yipping commands...

[surreal basin]

Considering that non-animal companion mounts get erased from the timeline if they get touched past level like 4

[limber comet]

It's cool that cavalier gets integrated into a class without being it's own class

[clever cobalt]

Damn now I wanna play a Fighter/Commander

I wonder how well it would work

[surreal basin]

I also love that commander doesn’t require charisma so you can make a guy who is an excellent leader and completely social incompetent outside of that which is

Kinda a classic archetype imo

[warped orbit]

okay Shielding Taunt makes me look on Taunt a lot more favorably

[fossil temple]

I like when Int is not exclusive for magic

[frank crystal]

Admittedly I do kinda wish it was a choice

Because I like the idea of a charismatic leader more then a genius tactician

But that’s just the character I wanna play

[fossil temple]

yeah, it would be very unique for a class to let you choose between Int and Cha.

[clever cobalt]

Yeah I can see a Fighter/Commander class working

[clever cobalt]

Psychic exists

[frank crystal]

I can’t tell if you’re joking- because yah psychic is just that

[barren cipher]

i think charismatic leader is kinda just bard

[fossil temple]

Psychic is just brain magic >:V

[clever cobalt]

Wrong

[echo briar]

I feel like the commander can't be cha based, because they don't want it to be too similar the the envoy

[clever cobalt]

Biden Blast

[barren cipher]

i am going to inspire you to victory vs. go here, do this and we will therefore win

[clever cobalt]

also INT makes sense from the perspective of "master tactician"

[fossil temple]

https://tenor.com/view/yugioh-anime-omg-wtf-cant-unsee-gif-5159766

[sinful gyro]

While there is stuff to do with inspiring in commander, it is mostly about tactics

[solar tendon]

just need to be smart and charismatic to be a charismatic tactician

[warped orbit]

yo what
Guardian just gets to ignore Clumsy AC penalty?

[frank crystal]

Also it is kinda neat we’re getting another 2 classes without subclasses

[solar tendon]

new giant barb capstone feat pog ;P

[warped orbit]

the only thing it affects you care about at that point is Reflex

[surreal basin]

Ye

Or skill checks

[fossil temple]

The name of the feats for the Guardian makes him such a bully XD

[solar tendon]

clumsn't

[warped orbit]

and your Reflex is probably also through the roof between Reflexive Shield and Mighty Bulwark

[fossil temple]

UNKIND SHOVE

:)

[clever cobalt]

Now I'm thinking a Barb/Guardian Dual Class

Which would rock actually

[fossil temple]

Use the tower shield as a club

[clever cobalt]

Bonk

[echo briar]

The Paizo sure is something.

I'm trying to look at the playtest forums to see if they say anything there, and it just keeps disappearing.

[clever cobalt]

Damn now I wanna play a Fighter/Commander dual class :v

[tough perch]

i think peak dualclass for commander might be investigator

[solar tendon]

even got erased from your message ;P

dual class party but it's only classes that released in the same book

[barren cipher]

i was thinking magus

[echo briar]

When it finally showed back up, I did see this

[warped orbit]

Didactic Strike into Demoralizing Charge
the dream

[echo briar]

so nothing we've seen is an iconic yet

[frank crystal]

No

[barren cipher]

strong offturns

[tough perch]

magus might be strong too, some tactics also let the commander reposition, right?

strong offturns that also help set up your spellstrike

[clever cobalt]

Nope

I think Gnolls will make great Commanders, mechanically

Their Stat stuff fits it well

[fossil temple]

Gnolls doing Biden Shout

[clever cobalt]

Same with Androids actually

I find Gnolls being good commanders kinda funny in an odd way but yeah

[solar tendon]

pack tactics

[limber comet]

I will say the obvious

Hobgoblins

[clever cobalt]

Yeah totally

I wouldn't be surprised if the Iconic was a Hobgoblin

[limber comet]

Please be from Rakh Lo

Praying

On my hands and knees

[solar tendon]

a lot of the kholo societies have a big mercenary industry too

[clever cobalt]

True

It's just interesting cause a popular depiction (in other media at least) seems to he "mindless killers"

For Kholo/Gnolls

[surreal basin]

yeaaaaah another class getting armor spec thank fuck

gods least used mechanic

[echo briar]

I think one of them will be an orc or a leshy, the two new common ancestries

leshy guardian would fuck

[clever cobalt]

Leshy is confirmed at least yeah

[unborn rain]

but which kind of Leshy

[clever cobalt]

The Inventor is an Orc iirc?

Not sure if that matters but

[limber comet]

Half orc

[fossil temple]

Guardian Leshy...

[clever cobalt]

Ah

Also yeah Guardian Leshy is my hope

[fossil temple]

The little leaf that could

Take a meteor to the face and protecc allies

[surreal basin]

I really really like taunt

I still wish it was like

literally hard aggro draw

but paizo doesn't ever seem like they wanna make that real

[fossil temple]

Taunt in TTPRPGs are finnicky
Is hard to make a "Now they can't attack ANYONE ELSE but you"
is better to give them a reason why they want to attack you and not your allies

[barren cipher]

to be fair, -2 to hit and also if you do hit then i'm just going to take it myself at a massive discount is a pretty hard taunt

[fossil temple]

you can upgrade your taunt to taunt 120feet away and raise your shield at the same time
Ranged Guardian may be a thing and becoem more of a hard disabler/debuffer

[warped orbit]

my main gripe with Taunt is I'm not sure why it also had to penalize you after they already need to make a save

yes with your faster AC prof you still kinda come out even, but still

[surreal basin]

i mean imo it's like

[fossil temple]

"But the guardian is a STR class!"
Easy
Use this

[surreal basin]

more of an incentive for the enemy

that really a penalty for you

*then

[fossil temple]

Yeah, is less a 'you did bad player' and more 'ANOTHER reason why they should go after you'

[surreal basin]

without hard aggro, the only way to do soft aggro is to carrot and stick enemies to attack you lol

[barren cipher]

it's nice that it works on fireball as well

[warped orbit]

I find the Intercept a much bigger draw than the Taunt

though Taunt becomes better with the Shielded feat, so you Taunt for free when you Raise a Shield

[fossil temple]

god guardian is So cool

[surreal basin]

intercept is good

very knave from icon

[clever cobalt]

I feel like these classes are gonna be seen more often in play than Exemplar tbh

[surreal basin]

actually guardian is v knave

[fossil temple]

now to make the tower shield good with it

[clever cobalt]

They mesh with the concept better

[surreal basin]

i mean yeah just by nature

[clever cobalt]

And Exemplar is also rare so

Ywah

[limber comet]

Oh absolutely but that doesn't mean Exemplar isn't gonna get attention

It's such a cool class so like

I'm definitely gonna make an orc exemplar

[surreal basin]

oh larger than life is

[warped orbit]

I still think making Exemplar rare is kinda dumb, but ehh

[surreal basin]

super fucking funny

[warped orbit]

it's just for people complaining about the theme I guess

[fossil temple]

Probably

[limber comet]

I mean, not every campaign can have Maui running around

Ykwim?

[clever cobalt]

Yeag

[surreal basin]

long distant taunt is fucking hilarious

[surreal basin]

also so gm can veto it because it kinda demands a little bit of narrative attention

[fossil temple]

He professionally shows you the finger

[clever cobalt]

"Hey, I fucked your mom" screams the Commander over a football field away

[surreal basin]

yelling across the entire battlefield "hey"

[warped orbit]

ehh
I still don't really think Exemplar is that much stranger than say Champion or Oracle

[surreal basin]

"bitch"

[clever cobalt]

and it isn;t

the main issue I've seen people have is the vibe/theme of the class

[surreal basin]

also might be like

[clever cobalt]

as opposed to anything mechanical

[surreal basin]

since if youre a real lore stickler

you can't run them in anything before war of immortals

because they don't exist

on golarion

[solar tendon]

yeah exactly

[warped orbit]

yes that is what I meant

[clever cobalt]

oh stranger

I thought you said stronger lol

my bad

[solar tendon]

like they don't exist as of the canon start date of the current aps

[warped orbit]

"empowered by a spark of divinity" is really not that much of an outlier in terms of class flavor IMO

[surreal basin]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[fossil temple]

It can be a lot of things

[surreal basin]

eh either way

doesn't really matter

[fossil temple]

It can just be a special flavour of champion

[surreal basin]

uncommon/rare classes are still kinda like

basically just nothing mechanics mostly

[solar tendon]

like rarity reflects what stuff is on golarion

and while alternative narratives for the exemplar are certainly possible

that's not their narrative on golarion specifically

[sinful gyro]

I wonder if what we're seeing in guardian hints at the future champion changes

[clever cobalt]

Potentially

[sinful gyro]

Like, will Bastion till be a thing? Will it change a lot?

[warped orbit]

I just generally think the handling of rarity tags is a bit muddled
using it for both "this is rare for mechanical and/or game reasons" and "this is rare because its just rare in setting" make them less clear

[surreal basin]

that's fair

[sinful gyro]

I always took rare to mean "this won't fit in every campaign easily"

[surreal basin]

I will as always uhhh

blame society play

since iirc

society stuff interacts very heavily
with uncommon/rare and access requirements

[solar tendon]

I think rarity is a cool tool for spellcasters that don't do spells known

like clerics

[clever cobalt]

Outside of Ancestries, Rarity always felt weird personaloly

though that may just be me

[surreal basin]

i appreciate the rarity rules for certain magic items/spells that can wildly change a campaign

[solar tendon]

so you can have new spells as rewards or potentially have spells have different rarities in different locations

[surreal basin]

like yeah no sometimes i don't want people to take plane shift lmao

[limber comet]

Fuck you, go to Abbadon

Planeshift

[surreal basin]

it also let me mechanically enforce my
"you have to find wish out in the world to take it" setting rule

[clever cobalt]

Wish is a ritual now right?

[warped orbit]

yes

[surreal basin]

yeah

[fossil temple]

some people would argue Monk should be uncommon or even Rare them

[surreal basin]

and those people are allowed to be wrong :3

[echo briar]

I think fighters should be rare

[barren cipher]

i mean for some campaigns i'm sure you can make the case for anything

[echo briar]

less than 1% of the population are soldiers

[barren cipher]

even in golarion

[clever cobalt]

I think GMs are Rare

[barren cipher]

'we're in rahadoum, clerics are like at least uncommon probably rare'

[echo briar]

all current classes should be rare.

[light gyro]

harnmaster-pilled chat

[echo briar]

The only common class should be "farmer" and "laborer"

[barren cipher]

you can set all your own rarities anyway

[fossil temple]

My Gm main argument is "ok, now i need to somehow make a Shaolin temple fit here..."
Maybe if the monks deviated from the asian look would help?

[barren cipher]

they're just there for the default euro fantasy

[solar tendon]

inner sea monks are mostly something to do with how irori works iirc

like having a widely known god of physical perfection means going for it is fairly easy

[fossil temple]

Get in the truck kids, we are saving galoreon

[barren cipher]

if you don't want 'em, don't have 'em - you can also just have your PCs walk from somewhere where they do have 'em if that fits but you still don't want to integrate it

that said i can't imagine dwarves without martial arts any more

[surreal basin]

I appreciate that uhhh

[fossil temple]

the punching dwarfs?

[surreal basin]

Guardian gets their extra reaction feat at level 8

[fossil temple]

same

[surreal basin]

makes me hopeful it won't be level 20 for champs anymore lol

[clever cobalt]

this also works for an Isekai fantasy

[surreal basin]

also vaguely amused by a party who has both a guardian and a champ

[barren cipher]

i thought champs got a pretty good range of extra reaction feats

[surreal basin]

oh i thought they only got their extra reaction for their champ reaction at level 20

idk

[surreal basin]

like, just, every enemy attack getting fucked with is hilarious to imagine

[echo briar]

I'm glad the sub got its shit together before the playtest was released. I can finally go there to talk about pathfinder

[surreal basin]

it's about as realistic as battle medicine

fitting 10 minutes of medical treatments into 2 seconds lmao

[solar storm]

I’m just referencing how we have this exact discourse over 10 years ago with the 4e Warlord

[surreal basin]

oh i know

my actual response it is "shut up" but that's seen as

not polite discourse

[echo briar]

I didn't know they made 14 warlords. I though they just made the one

[surreal basin]

:3

yurkey

[warped orbit]

So true

[turbid dagger]

Hmmmm
Tactician is neat but it seems like one of those classes where its KAS like, barely matters
You only need +1 int to cover a 4-person party and the warfore lore stuff is nice but does not feel class defining
Though stuff like Combat Medic also factors in and might nudge it back into being something you want +4 in

(Also combat medic lmao, forensics investigator seething?)

[echo briar]

The thing with commander is that no stat really matters

[warped orbit]

I'm just hoping Forensics will get something similar
After Chirurgeon and Commander now both did

[echo briar]

It doesn't need to make attacks at all

[barren cipher]

i wonder how hard you need to go into the archetype to get two tactics

[surreal basin]

YEAH EVERSHIELD STANCE

YEAAAAAAH

[turbid dagger]

It doesn't need too but sneaking strikes into its turns after having used a tactic seems neat

[solar storm]

I lowkey think the point of the int KAS is to make you not start at +4 in an attack stat to make the class a lil more supporty

[surreal basin]

yeah

[turbid dagger]

lmao, true probably

[surreal basin]

but also like

they get a lot of recall knowledge stuff

and several things based on their int mod

[turbid dagger]

Also the war steed feats seem pretty slick
Considering you can affect animal companions with your tactics

[solar storm]

Yeah their version of it is really nice

“You can use your auto scaling warfare lore for anything provided the questions are about how to defeat it in battle” basically

[surreal basin]

that is very cool

although I am

increasingly

[warped orbit]

Which is most of the primary uses of RK tbh

[surreal basin]

of the belief that

maybe warfare should just be a skill

[fossil temple]

Literally Guilliman Warhammer Class

[surreal basin]

it's referenced SO much more than like

any other lore skill

in feats, in classes, in adventures

[warped orbit]

It's too niche to be a main skill IMO

[surreal basin]

it's basically an unofficial skill imo

it's all over the place

[warped orbit]

It's only so relevant because a bunch of archetypes make it matter

[surreal basin]

that's fair

i still think it comes up more often than any other lore even without archetpyes personally

[solar storm]

There’s a few “super lores” but I think warfare might be the most used among them

Undead lore is another one which comes up a lot ime

[surreal basin]

Is it??

I thought that was specifically used as an example for a lore type that’s too broad lmao

[warped orbit]

Nah you can have Undead lore

A bunch of the backgrounds already do

[fossil temple]

"Oh boy i am teh bestest against undeads! What are fighting GM?"
"Elementals"

That's why we don't see much Undead Lore being used XP

[clever cobalt]

Sepeak for yourself

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, one of my abomvaults players got undead lore off their background
I think the lore thats used as the 'too broad' example is like
'Outsiders' as opposed to 'Devils'

[clever cobalt]

Undead Lore is great in Season of Ghosts and Abomination Vaults

[fossil temple]

I mean
yes
But in a free form adventure, it becomes too niche

[clever cobalt]

Depends on the campaign I suppose

[warped orbit]

I feel like Fiend lore would also still be justifiable IMO

[surreal basin]

I guess it’s like

Because it’s not a specific lore you don’t get the best DC

[solar storm]

It's pretty reliable that undead will feature at least some in a campaign

[warped orbit]

Well you still get a better DC than normal

[surreal basin]

It’s still so broad I’m not a fan tbh

[solar storm]

Yeah IMO its not usually worth going for very-specific lores

[surreal basin]

It’s like having animals lore where I’m like

That’s

Just nature

[solar storm]

Outside of certain known situations

[clever cobalt]

Warfare lore is super useful in Kingmaker

at least to m,y knowledge

[fossil temple]

Warfare lore is more broard because you can say it encompass a bit of war history and tactics

And war tactics is very tied to history

[surreal basin]

Fair enough I guess

[solar storm]

Yeah a lot of this is pretty clear in a campaign

My last homebrew campaign made "Rovagug Lore" extremely good

[trail nova]

If people got more lores, or skills in general, I'd be more restrictive, but I think Pathfinder 2e needs 3 - 6 skill increases more by default.

[fossil temple]

Maybe lore related? Because sometimes I just end with Battle medicine because there is nothing else 'to take'

[surreal basin]

Yeah I also think that it generally needs a few extra skill increases for everyone but investigators and rogues

Those two don’t need them

[solar storm]

I think skill increases are in an ok place but IMO there should be lore-increases

Since you're kind of screwing yourself usually if you take a lore not a skill

[surreal basin]

Yeah

But also like

[fossil temple]

CardGame lore so you can play not yugioh against the big bad to make him stop teh evil plan

[surreal basin]

Idk, usually you can use a lore once or twice over the course of a campaign

[solar storm]

I'm a fan of lore stuff so my inclination is just "every skill increase also gives you a new lore" but maybe that's too much

[surreal basin]

If you don’t pick some insane shit

Like yeah “goka lore” isn’t gonna work in extinction curse

[trail nova]

IDK. I'm just building PF 1e characters with a skills focus and going "Okay, where don't I have max ranks?"

[surreal basin]

But “sailing lore” is

Honestly gonna come up

In most campaigns

[fossil temple]

yeah, or driving lore

[surreal basin]

Like, at least once

[trail nova]

And then 2e Rogues it's still 6 skills.

[solar tendon]

engineering lore has been kinda wild

[surreal basin]

IF NOT for sailing

[solar storm]

Cookng Lore will come up though not necessarily in an important way

[turbid dagger]

Okay, finished tactician moving on to guardian
I like it a lot
I realize that practically speaking this is not going to come up a lot but I still find it Sexy

[surreal basin]

Then for being like

“Hey this monster seems like sailors would commonly encounter it”

[solar tendon]

cause its weirdly just like crafting but lore

[clever cobalt]

This is something the ICON Knave can do

Sucker Punch iirc

[fossil temple]

Guardian can be such a bully I love it

[surreal basin]

Engineering lore is good because it encompasses math

But not like

Alchemy

[solar storm]

This still stacks MAP right? since it doesn't have the attack tag itself

[solar tendon]

yeah

[surreal basin]

It’s a crafting subset

[fossil temple]

Now I want to make a Commander 😦

[solar tendon]

it has a strike

[clever cobalt]

Good question!

[turbid dagger]

The strike is a subordinate action that would still have MAP yeah

[solar tendon]

and the strike action is always gonna be an Attack

[solar storm]

I assume the "do a strike" makes it yeah

[surreal basin]

Considering that like

Guardian is a weird marital support

I think it’s fine

They’re not a striker

So that’s a valid use of map

Is opening a bitch up for someone else

[solar storm]

look at those chaps doing it with sticks

[fossil temple]

I think Guardian is the most 'mmo rpg tank' pathfinder can give and I love it

[turbid dagger]

ITs the rest of YOUR turn though

Does not last beyond it

[surreal basin]

…. Oh

[solar tendon]

oh weird

[fossil temple]

Bully, gatekeep, gaslight, grapple, shield

[surreal basin]

Yeah that kinda sucks

[turbid dagger]

I find myself envisioning some insane offensive free archetype guardian that like
Take Dual Weapon Warrior and does shoulder check into double slice or something
Which might be a little funny? But I dunno

As I said I cannot imagine, practically, it doing much very often

[fossil temple]

Buckler punch those fucks

Buckler in one hand
Tower shield in another
let's gooooo

[surreal basin]

Guardian is

Actually

A good use case for shield pistol

Finally

[solar storm]

huh yeah

[fossil temple]

Tower shield will shine when ;w;

[solar storm]

I really like the Guardian thematically i've been looking for this sort of martial and its been hard to make with what exists

[trail nova]

Like, one character would have in 2e terms: Acrobatics, Athletics, Nature, Stealth, and some Diplomacy, Thievery, and Society, without particularly needing more skills as a Spheres of Might using Ranger//Fighter

[solar storm]

Champion is close but doesn't have the same kinetic armored juggernaut feeling

[surreal basin]

I mean it’s also good with tower shield

[fossil temple]

😄

Buckler/Tower shield dream team let's goooo

[trail nova]

My Rogue types just go "okay, let's start spending ranks for fun" at a certain point. And IDK. I think that's somewhat healthy.

[surreal basin]

Guardian is the ultimate Fort Plate + Tower Shield user

[fossil temple]

actually "You can Raise a Shield with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light object that's not a weapon in that hand." with a buckler you can raise the flag without an issue

[trail nova]

I much prefer well rounded characters being the default.

[fossil temple]

You are making me want the guardian to be released at this exact moment so much.

[turbid dagger]

This is fucking dumb tbh
Dumb (good?)
Just absurd

[surreal basin]

Or bastion plate, but probably whichever one uhhhh

Fucks your initiative

Since your move speed is already gonna suck

You don’t need it to be worse lmao

[turbid dagger]

The description of whats happening makes 0 sense

[fossil temple]

don't need movement if you are the martial for a fire squad

[surreal basin]

…. Actually commander is a REALLY good option

For the movement speed armor

Since you can get a free mount from feats

And your aoe for your effects is kinda gigantic lmao

[solar storm]

https://tenor.com/view/silver-chariot-jojo-bizarre-adventure-stardust-crusaders-gif-24051301

[barren cipher]

yeah, this is absolutely terrible honestly

[fossil temple]

dude commander can elevate damage per turn so much with a good ranged weapon group

[barren cipher]

i am really not seeing any of this

[turbid dagger]

This meanwhile 😳

[solar storm]

Yeah I agree it seems like a 4fun finishing move more than any sort of staple

[surreal basin]

Nah you shatter parts of your armor against someone’s attack to damage

It’s a desperation play

[solar storm]

Ought to do more damage given how hard it is to unlock and how much it can mess you up

[surreal basin]

Yeah fair

[barren cipher]

like... damage sucks, action cost sucks, consequences suck, availability sucks

[fossil temple]

S

[turbid dagger]

Its YOUR strike
You break your armor as you swing your sword so the armor shrapnel helps you cut better
Its ridiculous

[barren cipher]

just strike twice, it's probably better

[surreal basin]

.:….

Wait

Wait yeah what

Yeah I guess youre supposed to use it to finish a guy off before his turn

[turbid dagger]

Its something that would sound dumb in a battle shonen

[surreal basin]

Like end a fight

[barren cipher]

yeah it's Power Attack, Only Really Bad This Time

[fossil temple]

Taunt him instead

[solar tendon]

wait

[surreal basin]

NODACHIIIII

[fossil temple]

bully him
Shove him
Stomp on his face

[solar storm]

If it was idk 6d6 base it'd be better good(?)

[surreal basin]

ITS TIIIIIIME

[solar storm]

Since your gambling on ending the fight before yout 50% HP broken armor ass drops

[solar tendon]

I think this is actually like

[turbid dagger]

would this stack with defensive armaments to give all guns +2 circ parry

[solar tendon]

get rid of your heavy armour speed penalty in a pinch

that happens to also come with an attack for some reason

[surreal basin]

yeah actually that makes sense

this is the yuhhhhh

[solar storm]

That is a factor yeah

[surreal basin]

classic "loses armor for speed" think

[solar tendon]

and there's lamillar armour so you only go to -1 ac compared to regular armour

(-2 from heavy)

[surreal basin]

I do think that it's really interesting that this is pretty much the only class that's like

functionally banned from using light armor lmao

like even champ supports light armor

[barren cipher]

you can sleep in your full plate as a class feature at least

[solar storm]

That is nice QoL

[echo briar]

the most surprising part of the commander is that it has heavy armor.

I would have bet money it was a medium armor class

[surreal basin]

nah, classic heavy armor commander

fire emblem stuff

[barren cipher]

i assume the archetype is going to be heavy armour too

[surreal basin]

although the black knight and ashnard (my real reference points there) are closer to being evil champs lmao

[solar tendon]

especially cause like

[barren cipher]

plate wizards experiencing a sudden drop in personal magnetism

[turbid dagger]

WHAAAAATTT
OMG
Okay I love guardian actually

[solar tendon]

that's wild

[solar storm]

Oh that fucks

I missed that one

[turbid dagger]

Since it does damage always I can flavor it as them doing a flying headbutt 😌

[solar tendon]

guardian rogue

[fossil temple]

So flying Kick but trip

BECOME THE ROCKET OF YOUR DREAMS

[turbid dagger]

And it always crits (if you succeed)

[solar storm]

Ultra-Ruffian

[limber comet]

The bouncer of your dreams

[solar tendon]

ruffiest

[limber comet]

Or nightmares

[fossil temple]

God yes

Call him
Spit

[echo briar]

i mean, trip crit is literally 1d6 damage

[surreal basin]

LMAOOOO

[echo briar]

compared to the other maneuvers, its basically nothing.

they should be super prone, AKA buried in the ground

[clever cobalt]

I'm just thinking if multiclass

Dual Class I mean

[limber comet]

Smash Bros ass type move

[clever cobalt]

Barbarian/Guardian Dual Class would fuck

Especially on a giant barbarian, thanks to this

[barren cipher]

they're way ahead of you

You can't remove this clumsy condition or ignore its penalties by any means while wielding the weapon.

[solar tendon]

tragic

but also sensible

[limber comet]

LMAO

Darn

[surreal basin]

ah the classic "by any means"

[limber comet]

Big Paizo got ya

[barren cipher]

still it puts you ahead

[surreal basin]

love to see it

[clever cobalt]

Damn

[barren cipher]

heavy armour, armour spec etc.

[clever cobalt]

Yeah it would still be great

Just not as blatantly so

[barren cipher]

barb champ is a pretty horrifying dual class too

[solar tendon]

bamp

[fossil temple]

I am way to invested in the guardian, been a while since a class made me so pumped

[surreal basin]

unrelated to the playtest

[solar storm]

Barb Guardian seems like a real fun dual class

[barren cipher]

i feel like this is a bit of a return to form

[clever cobalt]

Guardian is pure defense and Barbarian is pure offense

Combine the two

[surreal basin]

did you guys catch that they name dropped bloodrager

in that last stream

[clever cobalt]

And you get John Martialclass

Yeah

[surreal basin]

i hope they do my love good

[turbid dagger]

Its in the store page for WoI too
They ain't keeping it a secret lol
But yeah I hope its cool!

[surreal basin]

oh i mean yeah

[clever cobalt]

Holding out the vain hope of a Shifter Class Archetype for Druid

I want a proper shapeshifter

[limber comet]

Bloodrager getting relegated to Class Archetype makes sense tbh

[echo briar]

Blood rager, but its literal. You can't cast spells, but you can make weapons out of your blood

[clever cobalt]

What does the Bloodrager do again?

What was their niche in 1e

[solar storm]

Barbarian partial caster

Can only cast spells while raging

Sort of Sorcerer like thematically iirc

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[turbid dagger]

So you know how 1e had a bunch of hybrid classes
Magus was Wizard/Fighter, Slayer was Ranger/Rogue, so on
Bloodrager was Barbarian/Sorceror

[clever cobalt]

It's a Barbarian Class Archetype right?

In 2e

[solar tendon]

they used the sorcerer bloodlines

[turbid dagger]

Yep

[clever cobalt]

And good to know

[solar tendon]

so in a way it was kinda just like what if sorcerers but the magic made them buff and also real mad

[turbid dagger]

If a foundry module comes for these playtests I may make my Hobgoblin Fighter into a Guardian
The one I play in Kingmaker
I was hoping to make him into a tactician but while Tactician is REALLY COOL I don't think it fits him

I def want to play one but will have to devise another character concept for it

[limber comet]

Make another hobgoblin

Simple

[solar storm]

Regular goblin

Tactics are annoying songs

[turbid dagger]

Very possible, it certainly seems like one of the best races for it

[limber comet]

YES

YES YES YES

Annoying goblin commander

[clever cobalt]

Its already updated

[solar storm]

Oh does it already cover them?

[clever cobalt]

The Pazio Playtest one yeah

[turbid dagger]

Oh, so the PF2e module right now have tactician and guardian in it?

[clever cobalt]

I believe so

[turbid dagger]

Neat! Will talk to my GM then

[clever cobalt]

If what I heard on another server is correct

[solar storm]

https://gitlab.com/TMun/pf2e-playtest-data/

This has it

[limber comet]

I mean if I'm not mistaken I thought I saw it on the playtest thing itself

[turbid dagger]

Tactician is very neat but seems kind of wimpy as an individual
Which makes sense- they are all about empowering their team, their tactics mean they don't really need to do a whole lot themselves
But my dude is a leader more in the sense that he is a huge rock that the team braces itself around
Leading from the front and all that

And guardian is a good fit for that, especially with marshal

[solar storm]

Yeah Guardian will do that better for sure

[fossil temple]

Actually since it's Int and gives heavy armor
Would Commander/Wizard be good?

[surreal basin]

Itd be alright sure, but tbh Commander seems like they’d be pretty full on action economy

[barren cipher]

^

[surreal basin]

Tactic every turn and all

[turbid dagger]

Yeah
Most tactics are two actions it seems like

[solar storm]

I could see Witch-Commander working well

[barren cipher]

archetype might be a good investment

[solar storm]

Sustaining a spell and tacticsing

[turbid dagger]

Return of the 'sorta caster'
(Kineticist is the other 'sorta caster')

[solar storm]

Also cool name

[turbid dagger]

....Martial Artist Guardian
Return of the Brawler

[barren cipher]

there are also some really decent 1-action tactics

[clever cobalt]

Fighter/Commander would probably be pretty extended when it comes to Action Economy

Though Fighter/Commander makes a lot of sense vibewise

[barren cipher]

piranha assault can be absolutely horrifying damage per round, christ

[warped orbit]

it's very good if you're up against something with resistance yeah

[clever cobalt]

Like a Golem (or whatever they're called now)

(Bastion?)

[light gyro]

Rolling a bard commander with the sailor background call that Maestro and Commander

[warped orbit]

you can just nearly nullify a lot of the usual physical resistance

[barren cipher]

the mighty tarrasque now has resist... 5?

[warped orbit]

ghosts also btfo

[fossil temple]

Make this their theme song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WvVIeswirc

[turbid dagger]

Wait a minute...........................................................................................
Bo Staff Guardian?????
Trip-Flying Tackle
Parry-Raise Haft
Reach-Good
d8-You Were Going To Be Using A One Hander Otherwise Anyway

[clever cobalt]

Hmm, could a Fighter/Guardian be good?

[barren cipher]

it's just a fighter with even more AC

so yeah, absolutely

[turbid dagger]

Only thing that makes me sad is that you can't use Shielding Taunt with Parry

[barren cipher]

i expect champ is probably better for general use though

[turbid dagger]

there should really be some tag for 'give yourself circ to AC' actions so feats can just say 'you do an action with X trait'

[rustic cape]

https://downloads.paizo.com/042924_Pathfinder_Battlecry_Playtest.pdf Hello

Oh people are already talking t

[turbid dagger]

We are talking abou-
Yeah

[warped orbit]

funnily O-Yoroi might be very slightly better for Guardian than Full Plate
since their armor spec actually matters kind of, and piercing is more common than slashing

also has the Laminar trait, if you actually want to use Armor Break for some reason

[clever cobalt]

I use O-Yoroi over Full Plate anyways

I really don't see a downside to using it personally

[warped orbit]

it's 1 more Bulk

also slightly more expensive I guess

[solar storm]

Those are pretty handle-able downsides

[surreal basin]

how is it better out of curiosity

than plate

[warped orbit]

it's a bit of a weird thing with armor spec
because almost all the heavy armor iss Plate group
except for Splint and O-Yoroi that are Composite

[surreal basin]

other than the armor spec

[clever cobalt]

It breaks better

[warped orbit]

it's Composite instead of Plate
so it resists piercing instead of slashing
otherwise the only difference is that it has Laminar

[surreal basin]

ah

makes sense

goes to look up what laminar does

[warped orbit]

reduces broken penalty

[clever cobalt]

It means when it breaks you don't lose as much AC

Hence it breaks better

[surreal basin]

oh that's not a huge deal but it also like

can come up

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

Its a bit better with fewer downsides

[solar tendon]

the medium armour version loses a lot more for it iirc

[warped orbit]

the Lamellar Breastplate has Hindering

which is pretty bad

[solar tendon]

mm

[surreal basin]

Still really funny to me that heavy armor is just

Basically unusable by level 1 characters

So I kinda hope whatever book the Guardian comes out in includes a cheap heavy armor set

[warped orbit]

you can get yourself Chain Mail with an armor skirt until you can afford proper heavy

[surreal basin]

Ceremonial Plate also does the job iirc

Or uh

Ceramic?

There’s a medium armor set of plate

Ceramic yeah

[fossil temple]

must be good against bullets

[clever cobalt]

What does Chain Skirt do again?

[barren cipher]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=514

it depends

[fossil temple]

makes you look fabulous

[warped orbit]

it basically turns medium into heavy, and vice versa

[surreal basin]

Oh this is a good item to know about

[solar tendon]

makes heavy armour a tiny bit less strength dependent while keeping the +6 total

[warped orbit]

well it's still only +5

[solar tendon]

useful for characters who can only get 16 strength until level 5

[surreal basin]

I can add this to my ceramic plate on my big champ to make it into slightly worse plate essentially

Also useful for starting money

[barren cipher]

i think the world could use an affordable +5 / 0 dex / bulwark option

[warped orbit]

oh wait you meant heavy with a skirt, okay

[solar tendon]

yeah

[warped orbit]

you can also do it the other way to make Chain Mail into AC 5 Dex 0 heavy armor

[barren cipher]

the level 1 experience with 10 dex can be pretty fraught

[surreal basin]

Okay ceramic plate isn’t listed as one of the things it can be attached to but like
It should be

[solar storm]

Yeah that seems reasonable

[surreal basin]

I am stuck on plate specifically because I have a character for kingmaker that is hiding their appearance behind plate armor

Which is

Rough at level 1!

[barren cipher]

i am level 2 and have total +4 to reflex saves. a level 3 hellhound does 4d6 fire damage with a 19 dc. guess i'll die then

[surreal basin]

There’s not really a balance reason to it either afaik it’s just cause plate is expensive to make

[solar tendon]

didn't there used to be a way around this in 1e

[novel merlin]

Granted this issue is only really relevant for like 1-2 levels

[barren cipher]

you can buy uh shoddy full plate and nothing else i guess?

[solar storm]

It's a sort of weird holdover D&Dism to have full plate be really expensive

Golarion is early modern enough to have munitions plate so it ought to just be "expensive" IMO

[solar tendon]

like you could be a noble to have a reason for having expensive gear

[barren cipher]

get yourself a club and some other 0gp items and you're off to the races

[clever cobalt]

I think it's a weird balance thing for low levels

[solar tendon]

but I feel like level 1 characters have kinda been

[solar storm]

It might also be to normalize low levels yeah

[solar tendon]

creeped up in power level since then

[clever cobalt]

Then again Monks can get 19 ac at level 1 but yeah

[surreal basin]

There’s a trait

In 1e

To get extra starting money

Born Rich I think

[solar tendon]

yeah monks get legendary at level 1 specifically to have the same ac as heavy armour to begin with right

Traits thats what they were

[solar storm]

Though I guess a lot of munitions plate would be half plate really

[solar tendon]

https://aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Rich Parents

[clever cobalt]

That's 1e

[solar tendon]

...I'm aware

[clever cobalt]

Fair :v

[clever cobalt]

What tech level even is Golarion

[solar tendon]

although full on full plate in 1e was 1500

[clever cobalt]

Or at least most of Golarion

looks at Numeria

[solar tendon]

so even then you didn't get the good stuff

[surreal basin]

My guy is a skeleton/ancient corpse reanimated by plants

So

[solar tendon]

but also there was a lot more disparity in ac from the heavy armours

[surreal basin]

Needs to be PRETTY FULLY BODY

[solar storm]

It varies ofc but the general norm is a kind of late middle ages early modern period

[clever cobalt]

Alkenstar just invented Dynamite

Fair

[solar storm]

Somewhere in the 1500-1650 range?

[barren cipher]

yeah just do shoddy full plate

what's the worst that could happen

[solar tendon]

but yeah I think that type of stuff is half plate

[surreal basin]

Oh that would actually make sense

[solar tendon]

which is only just out of price range

[clever cobalt]

Golarion definitely has some exceptions and anachronism but sounds about right

Like Printing Presses exist

[barren cipher]

everyone else can cover the rations and chalk

[fossil temple]

Golarion sure is a very fantasy technology level

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[solar tendon]

a lot of stuff is relatively undeveloped because magic

[barren cipher]

club, sling, you're off to the races

[clever cobalt]

IIRC I think that's the reason guns were (relatively) just invented

[solar tendon]

and goes pretty quick once there's a reason to do it

[fossil temple]

yeah, but even in starfinder people still goes into melee, even with auto-weapons

[clever cobalt]

Because Guns were made in the Mana Wastes, where magic doesn't exist

[solar tendon]

like until you retreat into an anti magic cave or outlaw divine magic you don't make guns or develop medicine

[clever cobalt]

Or at least exists in a much less reliable circumstance

Also Vaccines were also recently invented

[surreal basin]

I…. Did not know about shoddy items

Is this a new rule?

[fossil temple]

and hey this fucks

[barren cipher]

nope, old as the hills

[surreal basin]

Huh

[fossil temple]

i think is one of those things were you should not really think TOO much about it...

[solar storm]

I only knew about it as a way to make shitty stuff enemies were using which didn't go in the loot pool

[clever cobalt]

I like Golarion and discussing it, what can I say :v

[barren cipher]

it's a really bad start but at least you can start

[fossil temple]

Well you can say that Golarion metal is build different

[clever cobalt]

PF definitely seems tied to Golarion more than say, DnD 5e is tied to Forgotten Realms

[fossil temple]

And since the fighters that can do super-human stuff , bullets don't completely destroy them

[clever cobalt]

It's magic

Ain't gotta explain shit

[solar tendon]

golarion is much more a part of pf2e's USP

[fossil temple]

Yes you do mister >:V

[surreal basin]

Would it be worse than ceramic plate + armored skirt

[barren cipher]

yes

[solar tendon]

especially emphasising selling because lore is one of the main things that gets people to actually buy pathfinder books

[clever cobalt]

True

[surreal basin]

Oh Christ okay

[barren cipher]

+4 AC, +0 dex, +1 to reflex saves for 15gp

[clever cobalt]

I'm one of them :v

[surreal basin]

I can’t affor that even with shoddy

That’s literally all the starting money

[barren cipher]

that is literally all the starting money

clubs and slings are free

what else do you need in life?

[solar tendon]

oh dear I've forgotten my weapon at home

[barren cipher]

was it kingmaker?

[clever cobalt]

If it's Kingmaker don't even worry about it tbh

[surreal basin]

It is kingmaker

[clever cobalt]

You get Half Plate really early

For free

[barren cipher]

the first thing that happens is you get access to an armoury and then are given lots of money iirc

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[surreal basin]

Lol, lmao

[barren cipher]

we need to conceal that we're a rotting skeleton, is the problem

[clever cobalt]

Robes

Lots of robes

[surreal basin]

Man it’s insane how pricey plate is mechanically

[turbid dagger]

Yeah Kingmaker has a suit of half plate in like the third room

My Intensely Honorable Hobgoblin did not take it until after the starting stuff was over and he could ask the owner for it but realistically Its Loot

[echo briar]

hu, guardian gets expert in attacks at 7th level.

and master at 17th.

Why them and not the commander (or ideally none of them)

[solar storm]

They are martials

And of the two is the more martial

[echo briar]

The guy that doesn't need to attack is more martial than the guy who gets hit all the time?

Both should get standard martial progression, but the guardian not having it is weird

What makes op at 6 levels and only those 6 levels?

[surreal basin]

Yeah I remember the intro of the video game

I’ll probably just be like “I’ll give it back if you want but we were using it to defend the house so like /shrug”

[turbid dagger]

Tell them that
Its a playtest

[rustic cape]

They may feel they want the guardian to be specifically defensive

Is that actually a good call? Probably not

Lacking offensive presence entirely generally doesn’t work in this type of game

[turbid dagger]

I guess the comparison point is champion
Its defensive ability is a lot more.... I don't wanna say potent, but fight defining
You don't just reduce the damage, you change the target entirely

[surreal basin]

Tbh they have so few abilities based around actually attacking I think it’s fine

Like alchemist having lower prof sucks because like

All of their kit relies on them being able to use attacks to deliver their actual stuff, IE, bombs or poison (not counting the other two)

[solar storm]

Oh I see I misread

[solar tendon]

combat mutagens are also just about making attacks better

[solar storm]

Thought it was legendary at 17 haha

[tough perch]

guardian's lower weapon proficiency feels to me that it's trying to teach you how to play the class, basically incentivizing you to be a nuisance with athletics and your class feats

[echo briar]

So why does it only start teaching you at level 5?

[tough perch]

because thats how proficiency works

[solar storm]

Because that's how proficiency scaling works?

[tough perch]

can't start with untrained in weapons y'knw

[echo briar]

yea you can

[warped orbit]

I just don't really see a reason for Guardian to have slower attack prof

[echo briar]

monk

[warped orbit]

Champion doesn't either

[solar storm]

I do think its likely to emphasize athletics based stuff more

IDK if its necessary yet either

[echo briar]

you need to be trained in unarmed (and simple I guess), but if they didn't want it to be using weapons, they don't need to give it weapons

[solar storm]

Who said they aren't supposed to use weapons?

(This is rhetorical, no one did)

[tough perch]

it's like it's trying to take you out of the "gotta attack at least once every turn" mindset

[echo briar]

I was responding to this cyan

where its teaching you to not use weapons starting at level 5

[solar storm]

Yes and I am saying that you're either being ubtuse or misunderstanding that post if your takeaway was "Guardian isn't supposed to use weapons"

[tough perch]

doesn't mean you shouldn't ever attack, rather that it isn't your main go to

i mean, otherwise casters also wouldn't have any weapon proficiency

[echo briar]

I agree that its supposed to use weapons. I'm saying that its not teaching you anything

because if they wanted to teach that, there were better ways

maybe I'm just explaining myself poorly

[tough perch]

i think it's trying to, if it succeeds is another story

[solar storm]

I think the idea with the Guardian is for them to really focus on that martial disruptive playstyle

So my feeling is that they want attacking to be less of a strong option vs shoves and such

But honestly they might already be like that because of the good feats for that playstyle and don't need to lose out on like 5 levels of Master proficiency

[warped orbit]

I think focusing on maneuvers is fair, but still not really a big reason to delay attack progression IMO

[echo briar]

Focusing on maneuvers is also kinda narrow in my opinion

[surreal basin]

Yknow my groups normal playtest are all of us playing the new class

[tough perch]

which is why i think it's an attempt to teach a behaviour, rather than a balancing lever

[echo briar]

Like the 2 handed heavily armored guy is pretty iconic, and they can do like one maneuver at most

[surreal basin]

But I think this time one of us needs to be an existing martial

Since these are BOTH supports

[frank crystal]

Guardian party

[solar storm]

Broadly speaking I think this sort of thing should just be a balance lever

[surreal basin]

Well

[frank crystal]

Make everyone harder to hit

Taunt everyone

[surreal basin]

A defender and a support

[solar storm]

If someone wants to play a class "wrong" but in a balanced way that should be allowed

[surreal basin]

I genuinely think this fine as a balance lever

[solar storm]

Yeah the semi-hard control with the Taunt and the attack redirect and such do eat a good chunk of power budget

[surreal basin]

Like

[solar storm]

Esp since there's a lot of single target defense buffs you can stack on someone

[surreal basin]

They have almost no offensive abilities

[solar storm]

Albeit not all at once

[frank crystal]

Also wait do guardians not have normal martial prof progression?

[solar storm]

It's slower

[frank crystal]

Oh

[solar storm]

Expert at 7 (meh) and master at 17 (whoa)

While the "normal" is iirc expert at 5 and master at 13?

[frank crystal]

Yah that seems, super slow

[surreal basin]

Yeah

They should move master down to 15

When everyone else gets legend imo

Just push stuff up 2

Well

Not everyone else

But when classes that get legend

Get it

[solar storm]

the way attack and save proficiency goes up is just weird in PF2

It's really not very consistent

IDK if Paizo has some behind the scenes norms or if they just make classes different to make them feel more unique or what