Pathfinder

[frank crystal]

And he’s a dick

But he was also a very skilled fighter in his prime but is now very old

And I’m wondering if I should go with

A. Keep him at a very skilled level, maybe make him a fight later down the line

B. Just have him be an old man, originally skilled but now with age and rust he’s just not strong anymore

[barren cipher]

how wealthy is he?

[frank crystal]

Not very

[barren cipher]

is he like some runed-up regional power or just kinda handy with a sword

[frank crystal]

He basically lives alone on a ranch in the country

[silver geyser]

The new edicts/anathema also aren't really better

[frank crystal]

Handy with sword+gun

[solar tendon]

that is besides the point and not something I really am at all interested in discussing.

[fast hill]

Do you want him to be cool despite being a dick or just a dick

[barren cipher]

if he isn’t capable of really influencing things, what’s the point of him showing up

[frank crystal]

Mostly a dick

[frank crystal]

Because my player is a vigilante and he was the one who held the title before him

[fast hill]

My favourite "dude reunites with dick dad" is from wolfenstein

[frank crystal]

And also the player thought he was dead when he mysteriously got the vigilante suit in the mail

[barren cipher]

like if he doesn’t have any juice there’s no reason for the party to not just go “sod off you smelly peasant, you were a bad parent and if we see you again we’ll kick your teeth in”

[frank crystal]

Hmm true true

[barren cipher]

if he’s retired batman he should at least have the appearance of being very capable

[frank crystal]

Admittedly that is an inspiration for his character

Him and the deserter from disco Elysium

(Dude was the son of the former former vigilante who was a hero of a revolution)

[barren cipher]

what kind of bad parenting is he here to do

[frank crystal]

Forcing his son to follow in his footsteps from the tender age of 7

And resenting him for the rest of his life

[barren cipher]

i mean what bad parenting is he about to do right now

[frank crystal]

Oh

I mean just kinda be an asshole

The PC is 30 now he can’t really be a bad parent anymore

That ship has sailed

[barren cipher]

uh

you can be a bad parent for decades, there’s no time limit!

[frank crystal]

True

As for what he’s specifically here for

Essentially the PCs were recently in the news

Including that one in full vigilante gear

And this guy is here to question him why because he never actually gave him his mask

And it can’t just be a replica because suddenly he doesn’t have it

(Which plays into the whole conspiracy that this campaign is built around)

[barren cipher]

yeah i would totally give this guy juice

[frank crystal]

Fair enough

[barren cipher]

pl+4-5 or something

[frank crystal]

I’ll probably focus in on the idea that he’s skilled even if he’s physically weaker then the PC

[barren cipher]

he can be a jobber later

[frank crystal]

Like physically he’s like, +2 +3 in stats

But he’s master in all his skills and weapon proficiencies

[barren cipher]

someone beats him up or kills him to show off how crazy powerful the evil conspiracy is

[frank crystal]

In PF2E terms

[trim grotto]

i have learned that i am actually quite bad at combat

[frank crystal]

like mechanically or strategically?

[trim grotto]

yes

mostly stategically

but i have gone down in like.... every fight i've been in?

having fun but man i suuuck lmfaoooooo

[turbid dagger]

Huh
What would you say your like
Weak spots are?
Is there any particular misplays you see yourself doing or are you just
Getting Crit Dead

[warped orbit]

What's your party comp like

And what fights have you been facing

[trim grotto]

getting crit dead, not spacing very well

not complaining mind you just noting that i got crit twice by the ogre lady

[turbid dagger]

PL+ crits will do that

Here's hoping you get your time to shine!
(I assume PL+ cuz giants are typically deployed as chunky elite types)

[warped orbit]

PL+ enemies can down you quickly yeah, especially on a crit

[turbid dagger]

...It would be funny to do a high level game where your fighting tons of PL-2 giant mooks or something

[echo briar]

Campaign where mirror universe versions of the bad guys have teamed up with this universes bad guys, so every boss battle is against 2 of the same guy

[surreal basin]

Lamashtu got changed in PC right? What was the change?

[turbid dagger]

I think its mostly this last line of the summary here but I'm not sure- I'll post the whole thing so you can compare and contrast if you want

[warped orbit]

The anathema got changed slightly IIRC

But it's just slight wording changes

[surreal basin]

ahhh okay that;s not accurately reflected in AON

[turbid dagger]

Ah yes

Oh wow remaster lamashtu's page is just.... wrong, yeah
Rare Nethys L

[warped orbit]

Yeah....

[surreal basin]

they're unfortunately really common rn

the site still needs a loooot of work rn

hmmm im trying to decide if this is enough work on her to reasonably mark her safe

i don't think it really is

[turbid dagger]

Topic change, but
Has anyone collated what like, percentage of enemies are immune to precision or bleed
Is there some 'immunities for fuckasses' reddit post of deeplore I can find
I'm still working on that level 10 char and I'm Scared
Of playing my Braggart Swash that goes all in on Bleeding Finisher

[surreal basin]

oh um

it's a large but not crazy chunk

[turbid dagger]

Cuz thats like all 3 common 'fuck you' immunities in one (mindless+precision+bleed)

[surreal basin]

any undead or constructs are immune to bleed

and that's about it outside of special cases

[turbid dagger]

Even zombies and such?

[surreal basin]

yes, but theres a liiiiiittle wiggle room

[turbid dagger]

I guess they don't need their blood but

[surreal basin]

if the gm thinks they should

but on foundry all undead are immune except like

vamps

[turbid dagger]

Hmmmmmmmmmm
Maybe I should take at least one more finisher
So its not just confident/exemplary/bleeding

[surreal basin]

precision damage is oozes (rare) and incorporeal (lightly less rare)

it'll suck when it happens but it's not a huge deal

braggart is fine

you still have tumble

and almost nothing beyond golems has mindless AND AoO

[turbid dagger]

Golems............................
They really are just designed to fuck with players

[trim grotto]

i was in a game once with a fully magic party except me and i was piloting an inventor constuct so i was basically in a mech fight 1 on 1 with a golem

[turbid dagger]

That sounds hype narratively but also a complete nightmare from an actual at the table perspective lol

[light gyro]

godsrain plot twist; ||lamasthu wasn't mentioned in any of the prophecies cus at the time of their supposed happening she's off on sabbatical - working on herself as a person, mellowing out a little. she'll be back when the god war ends like that one gif of donald glover with the pizzas||

[limber comet]

I just wish she were...less troublesome and more

Active

[surreal basin]

those two are definitely tied together

they don't want to use her in stories cause she lends herself to really difficult stuff

[limber comet]

Also uh

They should bring back Charybdis from 1e, since mythical/folklore monsters are becoming far more prominent

Also I think Seugathi should be in the next monster core/maybe aberration book

[rustic cape]

They may also see it as an opportunity to rid themselves of a god who is really extensively tied to the Bad Old Edgy stuff

Like I can try to make Lamashtu sound cool and interesting but

[eager mountain]

oh the 16th we will know

[rustic cape]

Yeah, won't be long

[clever cobalt]

It's also possible they don't pay attention to her because she's, uh, her

But that's just my thought process

[clever cobalt]

Also wondering how Lamashtu dying would lead to the War of Immortals

[light gyro]

if lamashtu's divinity juice gets everywhere you might become an exemplar or you might become a bloodborne monster i suppose

[clever cobalt]

Or both

[solar tendon]

lamashtu divinity being taken by a demon lord who isnt content to maintain the status quo

who doesnt themselves become a core god because of that

kinda thing

like urgathoa doesnt want an undead endgame like tar-baphon, cause she wants there to be people to eat

asomedeus is perfectly tolerated as long as he holds the key to rovagug

[trail nova]

I'm personally kind of weirded out by trying to make Lamashtu's faith a supportive thing for some people. I kind of see her as preying upon outcasts, kind of like "who else do you have to turn to" stuff

[solar tendon]

and lamashtu kinda loses all her power, such as it is, if people stop being assholes (either cause theyre subjugated/dead and thus lose the power to be or because they stop being assholes)

rovagug themselves' presence in the core gods is kinda symbolic

but then another big demon plot not that long after the worldwound concluding might be kinda weird

maybe treerazer?

[scenic patio]

I never really like Lamashtu as THE demon lord and felt that the title or godhood could've gone to someone else, plus due to the chaotic nature of demons none should really be on top per say due again to consatnt and infanite infighting.

[unborn rain]

I think Lamashtu is cool personally, I like her themes and I don't think it's neccicerally bad that she's gross

[echo briar]

2e really needs more options for the existing classes.

Like, if I'm having trouble finding cool feats for a rouge, one of the most supported classes, then we have a problem

[barren cipher]

that has been a roaringly successful model for wizards

[fast hill]

Yeah I wont lie some of the feats in 2e are kind offfffffff

Boring as sin

[trail nova]

Yeah. One of my big complaints is that 2e doesn't know how to write flashy non-magic stuff.

[fast hill]

Lots of class feats in 2e are just like, either no brainers or something no one would ever pick

[trail nova]

Sometimes there's a mechanical reason, like "We have made it so that forced movement is so strong that you can't punt someone across the room"

Sometimes it's "We haven't really given ways to diversify combat routines, besides sometimes moving and sometimes doing something else with the 3rd action"

And sometimes it's just "We don't know what high level characters should look like"

[barren cipher]

it's an order of magnitude better than its predecessors in the genre

but that can still be a very small number

[echo briar]

Like, there are no interesting rouge feats that are actually useful until lvl 4, and that’s pushing the definition of “interesting”

[fast hill]

I really like the nimble dodge or whatever it is

the reaction for +2 AC?

thats neat

but only because I think reactions are awesome

[worthy stump]

i wouldn't say there's nothing interesting in the level 1 and 2 rogue feats, but that's a matter of opinion i guess

tumble behind is cool, twin feint is useful

[barren cipher]

it's better than champion

that's a pretty low bar though

[upbeat ridge]

in an FA game, if someone is going like ancient elf or eldritch trickster, is allowing them to take a level 1 feat from thier main class in the otherwise dead level 2 FA feat slot a good solution? or would that be too strong. Since theoretically FA slots are half the power/level of class feat slots cos of the “pick a feat that’s half your level” feats in every multi-class archetype but I’m not sure how well that holds up.

[scenic patio]

Free archetype? Maybe 🤔

[unborn rain]

The Ancient Elf free archetype would be mesured seperatly I think

[barren cipher]

yeah i'd just run it separately

that's the advice from strength of thousands iirc

just make them pay proper class feats for the ancient elf archetype

[upbeat ridge]

Hm? Could you show me the text of that if you have it?

[worthy stump]

that's how we've done it the campaigns i've played with FA too

[barren cipher]

from SoT player's guide

[upbeat ridge]

Ok

[solar tendon]

FA slots are the same power as class feats

cause they are class feats haha

the restrictions that multiclass archetypes have is for niche protection

[upbeat ridge]

Ok

[echo briar]

why does the fire warden background give you plane of fire lore? Like its just a fire fighter, no connection to the planes at all

also, it gives a non skill general feat, why is it common?

[surreal basin]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[solar tendon]

tbf in a fantasy land significantly more fires are started by random planar nonsense than in the real world

[surreal basin]

Probably a mistake on the general fear thing but also not a huge deal probably

[solar tendon]

the feat is breath control so like

eh

[surreal basin]

Yeah breath control is real situational so they probably figured it was fine

[solar tendon]

and it makes a lot of sense for the background

[surreal basin]

SMH can’t believe they didn’t nerf breath control in the remaster

:p

[barren cipher]

by rage of elements they're well off their established path

[surreal basin]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

The feat you get from your background has always been super ancillary to me I guess lol

[turbid dagger]

Except for the one that gives battle medicine
Thats pretty hype

[solar tendon]

yeah

[turbid dagger]

That reminds me
Someone out there has probably killed a party member by rolling critfail on a treat wounds or battle medicine at dying 3
Can you imagine how awful that would feel

[warped orbit]

that's what you save hero points for

[surreal basin]

Yeah that’s a hero pointable moment

[carmine egret]

either this is an Overwatch reference or it's referencing a third thing that Overwatch is also referencing

[warped orbit]

the latter

the Death Blossom comes from Last Starfighter originally I believe

[ember bay]

https://youtu.be/MLNvUsTBGyE?si=DrEYeQO8kF-gxpKf

It's been so long since I've seen the movie I forgot the maneuver was called Death Blossom.

[eager mountain]

I enjoy the names

[scenic patio]

these names are great LOL

[echo briar]

Has anyone found that they can't make clerics/champions until they find out which gods are dying?

Like I have an idea for a cleric of abadar, but I can't bring myself to actually make it because it could be for nothing

[limber comet]

Not necessarily

Not every cleric of Aroden just

Turned into dust

Writing a crisis of faith can be interesting if it shakes out that way

Also like, a gm may rule that the event hasn't or won't happen(ed)

[warped orbit]

No, but they did lose their magic

[eager mountain]

dead faiths still exist

[warped orbit]

they do, yes
but AFAIK any Aroden Clerics do not receive any spells anymore

[eager mountain]

nah but his relics still contain power

also still guessing iomedae

but abadar would be cool

mabye

[barren cipher]

i think you can convert pretty easily

[limber comet]

Correct, but still, roleplaying that crisis would be extremely interesting

[fossil temple]

Starfinder 2e released?

[light gyro]

thats from a playtest iirc

[fossil temple]

noice

[true delta]

Okay, so I'm looking at the pre-remastered community pregen for Amiri. It says her "Large bastard Sword" makes her Clumsy 1. But in both version of the core rulebook, I only find a "Bastard Sword" which does not do that and is otherwise identical. What's correct?

[stuck bane]

Part of giant instinct, it’s specifically a large and unwieldy bastard sword

Giant instinct can have a large version of any proficient weapon and it always adds clumsy 1

[true delta]

Ah, thank you

[true delta]

But how come it appears to deal the same damage? Like, where's the benegit in using such a large sword?

[solar tendon]

giant instinct gets the biggest rage damage bonus

[stuck bane]

The giant instinct’s increased rage bonus damage is tied to using large weapons. Clumsy is the trade off for the larger boost

[true delta]

Ah

[stuck bane]

So it does do more damage, but not just anyone can pick up your sword and do more damage

[true delta]

Thank ye

[solar tendon]

like fury is the 'standard' barb with no limitations on their rage damage and goes 2/6/12

giant goes 6/10/18

[warped orbit]

Oversized weapons by default have no benefit, its only through Giant Instinct that it does anything

[solar tendon]

realistically most barbs are somewhere in between though

I think?

[worthy stump]

for the most part, yeah

superstition and animal instincts are a bit weirder though

animal goes 2/5/12, but you get all the unarmed attack stuff it has access to

superstition is 4/8/12 against spellcasters, and 2/4/8 otherwise

[rustic cape]

I do think it’s too bad there’s not much for TWF barbs

[worthy stump]

yeah... especially since agile nukes your rage damage

[rustic cape]

“Two big swords/axes/hammers/etc” is a very barbarian fantasy I feel deserves support

[warped orbit]

you can always go into Dual Weapon Warrior, but yeah

[warped orbit]

poor Superstition, I hope it gets some buffs/changes in the Remaster

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1c25f7t/spoilers_from_badluckgamers_interview_with_james/

some interesting stuff here about the upcoming books

it seems there will be two new Hybrid Studies for Magus in Tian Xia

"Aloof Firmament" and "Unfurling Brocade"

[turbid dagger]

[unborn rain]

Superstition getting the same damage as Dragon but only against one enemy is so weird

[turbid dagger]

And dual weapon warrior is indeed super free
Literally gives you double slice out the gate!

[thorny berry]

o shit, I thought there was only gonna be the one

stop the fucking presses

very cute

sounds like they're gonna be pretty serious class DC users

'nother option for kineticist, I guess.

or just casters I forget how that works, do you use spell dc if you don't have a class dc?

[warped orbit]

Rend is gonna be pretty sick for unarmed classes, unless it's tied to a specific attack

[thorny berry]

though it'll likely just be written as either/or

[warped orbit]

previously you did
but casters actually have class DC now in the Remaster IIRC

[turbid dagger]

Yeah rend is just
Woah

[thorny berry]

so legendary class DC remains a kineticist-only niche, basically?

though fireworks technician at least is written as 'higher of class or spell dc' so it's not unprecedented

...honestly they could have saved a lot of hassle in the first place and just said 'everyone has a class DC, which you also use for spells'

[turbid dagger]

real talk spells should just key off your class dc

[thorny berry]

especially given that spell DCs are tradition agnostic now

like I don't think giving martials archetyping into casters access to their non-legendary dc to cast their spells that are like two ranks behind would have broken anything

(though martials certainly don't need the help or anything)

[warped orbit]

Wild Mimic is gonna come down a lot to implementation I think

[thorny berry]

really it's just annoying that 'using your class dc at all' feels like one of the few trap options

especially with how appealing 'well, it would be cool if my fighter could throw a fireball sometimes' often is to new players and how the design of archetypes sort of subtly suggests it as a viable option

[warped orbit]

yeah archetype casting is a bit awkward

[thorny berry]

like it's good IF you follow the secret rules that the game doesn't state directly (don't cast anything with an attack or save)

[warped orbit]

some save stuff is also still okay

casting a Slow or Synesthesia still works pretty good even with worse DC

though I guess that's also colored by me doing it on an Investigator, so I still have Int KAS at least

[turbid dagger]

Thaum can just buy being a full caster with money also

[thorny berry]

thaum my beloved

still looking forward to hopefully playing my sixth pillar thaum

[echo briar]

Ok, I remember there being some regional architype for a search and rescuer, but I can't find it. did I make it up?

[barren cipher]

there's uh bellflower tiller which is sort of related

more escape and evasion than search and rescue though

[clever cobalt]

Gonna be playing in a firebrand games with friends, tempted to give my character an outfit like this

[worthy stump]

Firebrands are contractually obligated* to dress in the dopest fashion possible

*Citation needed

[limber comet]

Howl is gonna be so fucking crazy, apparently Athmaru are getting a large heritage

Beeg fish

[thorny berry]

definitely some real spicy options from what they've shown so far, I'm excited

[limber comet]

The flavor

Ooogh

Not even mentioning Magus getting love

[frank crystal]

Wait where does that art of Addison come from?

I don’t remember that from K6BD at all

[limber comet]

It probably was from a sketch page or concept art

[turbid dagger]

Yeah Tom just puts stuff on twitter every so often

[surreal basin]

Or the old comic lol

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[frank crystal]

I don’t think Allison was ever this cool in the old comic lol

She was unfortunately never this dripped out I think

[clever cobalt]

I'm pretty sure its just concept art yeah

[limber comet]

💀

Reddit moment I guess

[clever cobalt]

Wonder what they're vagueposting about

[warped orbit]

I mean I kinda get it

but getting disappointed in advance doesn't do anything either

[limber comet]

Well, it was under the Tian Xia/Howl Spoilers thing so

[warped orbit]

presumably that the new stuff might not turn out as cool as people are imagining it now

[limber comet]

I don't get it. Let people be excited

Don't be a party pooper

[warped orbit]

yeah

I do also think Paizo has been experimenting a bit more in the recent books, so we'll see

[limber comet]

Then again you'll see grognards like this on the official Paizo website too

[clever cobalt]

Yeah I'm glad Paizo is taking risks

things not turning out as planned is just a consequence of risk taking

[warped orbit]

I mean again, I kinda get it
there definitely has been some stuff that has a cool concept but was just a bit too conservatively balanced

but I do feel they've been taking some more risks in terms of balance in the more recent books

[clever cobalt]

yeah

[echo briar]

The only thing worse than a party pooper is impossible expectations.

[limber comet]

I have no expectations

[echo briar]

I read that comment as about that, not that everything they make is bad

[limber comet]

I'm just happy magus is getting love

[warped orbit]

new Hybrid Studies is gonna be interesting yeah

wonder what their gimmick will be

[limber comet]

Well, Brocade is a type of silk garment so

Maybe something focused on unarmored/light armor

Idfk lol

[clever cobalt]

Unarmed maybe?

[warped orbit]

a more dedicated unarmed Study could be something yeah

IIRC they previously hinted that one of the Studies might be jumping and/or mobility focused
that might be Aloof Firmament

[turbid dagger]

cough triggerbrand
Takes a lot of effort to make me not want to play the gunblade class guys, congrats

[thorny berry]

to be fair: even if it were good triggerbrand is also wack for using thievery for some reason

on a fighting style textually called out as being used by nobles, no less

[solar tendon]

I think the rest of the book text emphasises the criminal aspect a lot more than the noble thing

like said nobles are just copying the emerging fighting style from the deprived streets of alkenstar

iirc

[solar storm]

That’s also my recollection yeah

[turbid dagger]

From the book the triggerbrand fighting style is actually a gangland thing
Smogside illegal gunsmiths bolt knives and pistols together and hand it off to gangsters, and thats where the tradition developed
The actual fancy 'triggerbrand' sword is just a noble recreation

[echo briar]

I believe combination weapons are getting a buff via errata at some point, as swap kinda made one of its key strengths (one action to switch between range and melee) obsolete

[warped orbit]

they did mention something like that, yeah

[turbid dagger]

If I am being honest
I still have 0 hope
A fairly recent talk on the PF2e discord made it seem very much like combo weapons are still gonna be kind of bad because the devs are very afraid of the fact that each half shares runes

[warped orbit]

glances at Blazons

[limber comet]

I mean unfortunately that's what happens when you focus on balance in a crunchy system

Cool ideas get neutered

[clever cobalt]

I kinda disagree. Cool things can still be implemented, it's just harder

[echo briar]

I think they should introduce flintlocks. Guns that can’t be reloaded in combat, but pack a punch. Martial focus spells you can buy essentially

[turbid dagger]

Balancing around econ just feels so
Bad
Though
What do I have over this stab and blast vanguard slinger with reinforced stock?
Uh
I saved 700 gold for a second impactful rune
All my damage dies are two steps lower though

[solar tendon]

itemisation is just straight up not interesting enough in pf2e for it to feel good

[turbid dagger]

Yeah like
Its not the draw at all really
You spend gold cuz you have too, not cuz shopping is fun

[clever cobalt]

I like how Lancer does gear

But it's also very different

[turbid dagger]

All the guns in PF2e are flintlocks 😛
Never forget that when you are playing your cowboy in outlaws of alkenstar you are slinging this MFer around

Revolvers are ILLEGAL

[clever cobalt]

(Buff guns Paizo)

(Give us cowboy weapons)

[warped orbit]

I headcanon that all guns are cartridge based and breech loaded
don't question why magazines don't exist

[solar tendon]

cartridges exist

magazines are really complicated

[warped orbit]

yeah but more than just paper cartridges I mean

[frank crystal]

Springs were never invented in Golarion

[solar tendon]

there's a reason that revolvers uh. exist

[echo briar]

That’s literally canon

[echo briar]

I don’t think flintlocks use cartridges, but I may be wrong.

[turbid dagger]

Its funny because the Slide Pistol is like
Just a revolver mechanically
If you wanted to stat out a colt peacemaker I imagine it would have all the same traits
I mean maybe increase capacity by 1 for the classic six-shooter but

[solar tendon]

irl they didn't

asterisk

it was mainly a case of like, gun technology got better before mass production of paper cartridges became widespread

because on golarion firearm technology was delayed until magic become non-viable for a population

industrial processes were already kinda at the point where they could go pretty much straight to catridges

[turbid dagger]

I mean
I'm uncertain what exactly the internals are but 'flintlock musket' and 'flintlock pistol' are both existing weapons that function exactly the same as most other guns
Reload 1 and all that
And afaik the fancier guns are all assumed to be muzzle-loaders as well

(Meant in response to Polish not Penny's stuff)

[solar tendon]

paizo's argument for no revolvers is basically that they're only a decade or so out

aiui

gun tech is developing rapidly

[clever cobalt]

When was Alkenstar first written? :v

[solar tendon]

honestly the real problem with guns is that pathfinder law means bows have to be the best

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

I just find it kinda funny how they say stuff like that and then move the metaplot forward

[solar tendon]

anything not a bow has some realism based argument from which bows are suspiciously exempt

taking a hand off a big sword? that's an action

reaching into a quiver, nocking an arrow, drawing your bow, finding your anchor points, loosing an arrow? 2 secs max

[turbid dagger]

This is only barely tangentially related because its 'weapon balancing talk' but you know what would be fun
If PF2e did the 4e 'weapon dice' thing and some weapons' base damage was like
2d4 or some shit
And a striking rune makes that 4d4, power strike striking hit makes it 6d4, so on

[surreal basin]

On one hand I do get what you mean
On the other hand, taking your hand OFF a sword is the worst example because it’s a free action :3

[solar tendon]

oh right yeah

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Also as a note

I have said it before but

Guns and Gears was Paizo’s Coward Design era in my eyes

Which they have firmly stepped away from

But they were extremely safe and cautious to a fault with their design choices, to the point that a lot of stuff from that time period doesn’t feel great

See: a dual wield pistol build just has no support despite being the most common gunslinger fantasy imo

[turbid dagger]

Triggerbrand is from LO:IL so I'm still allowed to be mad :3

[surreal basin]

Oh I mean for sure

But it’s related to guns and gears so they had to keep it on par with all that stuff

But also yes it is weird that dnd and it’s related properties are like

Eternally obsessed even unconsciously with making bows the best

[solar tendon]

and I have no problems with like bows as a heroic fantasy

I just think everything else should also be treated as it's heroic fantasy version

[turbid dagger]

Admittedly I think the reload stuff is as much an attempt at appealing to the fantasy of using an early modern firearm as it is a balancing lever
I think reload is actually pretty neat as a mechanic, especially with all the metareloads floating around
And far less of a downside that most games due to MAP/3 Action Turn

[surreal basin]

Oh for sure

Tbh my problem doesn’t rest with guns as much as it does gunslinger design wise

[turbid dagger]

If I'm comparing a bow and a gun in Fantasy Heroland, I think swift elven archer for bow and a dwarf with a big exploding hog leg for guns
But yeah its a thorny issue
By and large I think like
Rifle Shooting Slinger is fine but also the least common fantasy?
People want to dual wield pistols, they wanna be a bloodborne hunter

[surreal basin]

Well

For me it’s more like

I think the gunslinger fantasy a lot of people want is high mobility, hitting hard, doing trick shots
Which…. Gunslinger is okay at those things, but they went way more charisma focused with it then I expected

Like there’s a LOT of deception, intimidation, etc

I think gunslinger could also use like

A core mechanic?

Like rogue or Barb have

[warped orbit]

presumably its meant to be their Fighter tier accuracy

[surreal basin]

Well, fair, but I mean like

[solar tendon]

fighters also get reactive strike at level 1

[surreal basin]

I think fighter can get away with that being it’s thing because it’s so versatile

But gunslinger needs a little something else imo

[warped orbit]

I do think Fighters have overall better feat selection than Slinger though

[solar tendon]

yeah fighters are like

[surreal basin]

I actually think Grit would be cool as a comeback

[solar tendon]

so good at feats there's an entire genre of archetype that's just fighter feats

[surreal basin]

Maybe I’ll make a redesigned gunslinger at some point

[warped orbit]

Fighters have all the good metastrikes and tricks

like I genuinely do kinda feel that Fake Out might be one of the best feats Gunslingers have
and that feels kinda wrong haha

[solar tendon]

its kinda class warpingly good

[novel merlin]

Spellguns are what you want

[young chasm]

man

what i would do for a gunslinger class that focuses on trickshots and grit

[turbid dagger]

There ARE slinger feats that I feel are utterly heinous
Like stab and blast
Imagine flurry of blows, but no map and if the first hit lands the second gets +4 circ to hit

[warped orbit]

Stab and Blast is pretty good, yeah

[solar tendon]

bayonets

[turbid dagger]

It's kinda y'know
Womp wimp
If that first hit doesn't land but that's Pf2e baybee

[solar tendon]

gaaah

[turbid dagger]

Yes
As we all know rifle strokes hurt way more than bayonets

....A 'sword bayonet' attached weapon would be cool
Give me my Martini Henry Riposte in pf2e

[young chasm]

at the same time it ends up being no different if a regular strike misses

so you might as well Every Single Turn

[solar tendon]

I just picked up risky reload

playing on sunday

I think risky reload is really funny cause the risk is that you just have to 'reload' that turn

[echo briar]

I mean, not really

those are consumables, which are very different from once a combat

and are inherently magical instead of just being a cool thing for gun users

[warped orbit]

I'm gonna go one step further tbh, and say I wish focus points had just been a more universal thing instead of being so tied to casting

focus abilities for any class would have been cool

[turbid dagger]

PF2e fighter with the Maneuver Dice
What sins will they commit 😳

[solar tendon]

I remember before pf2ecame out and focus points were revealed

with the detail that that was how ki was gonna work for monk in the new edition

and I remember so many people were mad about it haha

[surreal basin]

I think that’s part of the problem is gunslinger has like

Two classes of feat

Pretty bad or game warping powerful

[solar tendon]

hit the dirt! is kinda cool, and leaping fire is potentially awesome

and then you play the cowboy ap and no one shoots at you and paizo starts talking about starfinder and how its balanced differently because in starfinder, people will shoot at you and it's like oh

[turbid dagger]

Yeah
There's a bunch of shit thats like
'yeehaw pardner: when someone crit misses you, you can unload your gun to make them flat footed until the start of your next turn'

And lmao
Yeah I guess I haven't seen many ranged-heavy comps in PF2e

[turbid dagger]

Also oh my god
I never realized hit the dirt was ranged attack only until now 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀
Oh noooooooooooooooo

[solar tendon]

omgg

[warped orbit]

not sure why it is tbh

it's not like it's that much better than Nimble Dodge or Flip or something

[solar tendon]

mmm

prone is a big downside until kip up comes online

[turbid dagger]

Well, I suppose the leap would consistently burn actions against melee attackers

[warped orbit]

you do get a free Leap at least
which is the only reason I'm not saying it's strictly worse lmao

[solar tendon]

the leap is great

but prone and ranged only

especially since in pf2e prone only lets you take cover

rather than inherently increasing your ac against ranged

[thorny berry]

it really is, I'm kind of eternally annoyed by people hanging arguments off it around the class's overall balance

if it's supposed to be core, it probably shouldn't be a feat!

[solar tendon]

yeah for sure

like

[warped orbit]

but my issue with Leap and Fire is also that, while cool, you also still need to have a loaded gun

[solar tendon]

how reactive strike isn't a feat for fighter haha

[warped orbit]

Reload just makes a lot of stuff so much more complicated

[thorny berry]

but also I am the noted Aid Hater anyway

[young chasm]

wwait you hate aid? i gotta know why

[solar tendon]

I made a double pistol thaumaturge who had one pistol (weapon implement) that was just for reactions

[warped orbit]

I think once you approach the mid levels, Aid is a little too strong maybe

[young chasm]

oh thats true

[warped orbit]

especially if you have something like Fake Out

[young chasm]

i can get behind that

[thorny berry]

goofy static DCs, high degree of 'mother may I' around what you're allowed to roll for what

[turbid dagger]

fakeout would be weird as core because like
Its not really well
Core
To the slinger fantasy
I suppose you could say thats true of fighter and AoO but like
Fighters in RPGs hit people who run away from them
Slingers do not necessarily go 'bang' and spook people who their pals are trying to shoot
But yes its certainly quite powerful and polarizing as a result

[young chasm]

man human gunslinger with cooperative nature & fake out is nuts

but no yeah i get what you mean

aid's really strong i just didnt think anyone would dislike it for that reason but i get it now lol

[limber comet]

Yeah, gunslinger isn't great

Which sucks

[warped orbit]

I think 'Slinger is okay

[limber comet]

Because it's such a cool concept

[warped orbit]

but it also often ends up feeling worse because of how spikey gun output is

you go from dealing no damage on a normal hit, to a lot on a crit

[solar tendon]

I've found that if you get a flat bonus to damage guns are pretty fun

[thorny berry]

yeah that's the other thing is that at certain levels it's so strong (for classes that don't otherwise fight for their third action/reaction) that it just kinda obviates other options if you're playing ~optimally~

[solar tendon]

just that's a whole bunch of classes that aren't the gunslinger haha

[thorny berry]

and stuff like cooperative nature is just nuts if it's as universally applicable as some people treat it

[warped orbit]

once you're around like level 10 or so, Aid is super strong
you can Aid with master skills for a +3 very likely

[limber comet]

At least Inventor is baller

[solar tendon]

I'm really enjoying inventor

[warped orbit]

I mean, it doesn't get much more universal than an unconditional +4 on any Aid check

[thorny berry]

if the aid action is as universal as some people treat it

[warped orbit]

oh that

[limber comet]

I'm hoping that Gunslingers+ gives Gunslingers more juice

[solar tendon]

construct inventor is like if a barbarian was also a precision companion ranger and it's really fun

[worthy stump]

there is a lot of table variance on what does and doesn't work for aiding, yeah. do wish it was a bit more explicitly laid out in the rules

[warped orbit]

Aid definitely could stand to be a bit more codified

as is it's just very left up to the GM

[turbid dagger]

Season Of Ghosts with my catboy magus is going well

[frank crystal]

Rip to Buso

[worthy stump]

#maguslife

[turbid dagger]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1887
Just learned about this
Fucked up...............

Am I blind or is the ability that just Gives You Grab an at-will with no recharge period

It does keep you from using it to strike until the grapple breaks admittedly
(From the 'as grab' text)
But
Lord

[warped orbit]

it's good for grappling, yeah

too bad the second ability sucks, they could have at least let it deal the full dice in damage

I always wonder a bit if those "equal to the number of damage dice" entries are intentional or just a wording mistake

because if it's intentional, dealing 1-4 damage with that second ability is just so sad

also weird that the scizore doesn't have a striking rune despite being level 5

[turbid dagger]

Good thing you can slap fundamentals on specific items
I've been thinking about a scizore-flyssa dual weapon fighter recently
Parry check, agile check, same weapon group check
Seems real good for double slice

[warped orbit]

yeah you can just slap a striking on there thankfully

which just makes it even weirder though

[warped orbit]

hmm, that is pretty good yeah

[turbid dagger]

......Can those dual wielding runeshare items let you put property runes on specific weapons
I imagine the answer is almost certainly no but

[warped orbit]

probably not

[turbid dagger]

Okay that settles that

[warped orbit]

They really don't want property runes on specific weapons

[turbid dagger]

But tbh I'm still vibing with crab scizore double slice
Lead with Flyssa, then Scizzore, do the grab
Thats 3 effective attack actions with no MAP baybee
(required- someone adjacent to you)

[true delta]

I'm looking at Automatic Bonus Progression. Players get +1 to attack rolls at level 2. Does this mean they would otherwise be supposed to be decked out with magic items which do that? Like, the whome party – at level 2 already?

I'm asking because the whole treasure thing is hard and I'm tempted.

[unborn rain]

Some where in the GM's advice theres a chart which says when PCs are supposed to have stuff

but trying to find it is a bit annoying because of how AoN is formatted

[true delta]

Oughtta read that, then. Thankies!

[unborn rain]

That chart might be bordeline identical to the auto bonus progression though

[surreal basin]

They should getting +1 weapons by the end of level 2 or during level 3 yes

[tough perch]

everybody who attacks with weapon and unarmed attacks, basically

you don't really need to give your casters +1 weapons

unless they're like a warpriest or something

you also can award some of those items a level early

[tough perch]

do you mean the treasure by level? it doesn't really spell out which permanent magic items are essential, but i also don't know which other chart it could be

for fundamental runes it's also the item level. for exemple the the +1 striking rune, which the party should have around level 4, is a level 4 item

though the ABP chart is the best reference for all this, since it has all the fundamental runes in one place

it just doesn't have kineticist gates or staves for casters (which are like, basically as important)

[fast hill]

my party is playing blood lords

do you think a character who gets brought back as a zombie should have to spend their class feat taking the husk zombie dedication

[turbid dagger]

To get the basic undead benefits probably yeh

[solar tendon]

iirc book of the dead basically suggests it being a free (instant) retrain

[surreal basin]

YeH

[turbid dagger]

Oh yeah retrain I more meant
You should not force your level 9 wizard to spend their level 10 feat on zombie dedication or something lmao

[kind oracle]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6srsz?Educate-Entertain-Inspire

path/starfinder infinite game jam until May 1st!

it's a one page limit (double sided so technically two)

[frank crystal]

So I’ve got a neat idea for an encounter

Where the players are being shot at by a custom zombie monster who has a bunch of rifles grafted to its body that it shoots

While they’re being surrounded by super weak skeletons

Who are not really threats (they’re CR 1)

But do body block and have a death effect to explode because they have pipe bombs in their chest

[scenic patio]

Strong the suffering vibe

[frank crystal]

Literally where I got the art from lol

Its such a cool monster design I gotta use it

[scenic patio]

So they’re releasing minis of the gods in pathfinder and they’re the gods left on the bingo kill list

[clever cobalt]

Desna isnt

[scenic patio]

Is imodae going to die that be crazy LOL

[limber comet]

Sarenrae preserved in plastic

[surreal basin]

I’m still hoping

Still chanting around my ritual circle

[young chasm]

i hope its shelyn

[surreal basin]

Por que

[young chasm]

i think it’d an interesting plot hook for the war of immortals; zon kuthon’s sibling gets murdered and he starts a war over it? sounds like the most poetic stuff ever

[turbid dagger]

Yeah
With all the stuff about Shelyn trying to get Zon back it would kind of whip if she died and he was like 'oh fuck I actually care still'
But I dunno
Not likely at this point I think

[scenic patio]

My irl friend is malding over the thought lol 😂

[craggy thunder]

There are various gods I would love to see bite it solely for the comedy

Irori’s off the table now, but Calistria and Iomedae are still here

[crystal walrus]

so i'm reading pf2e core

did they cut Alchemist for Witch?

[worthy stump]

Alchemist is gonna be in Player Core 2

the premaster version is still usable though

[true delta]

I have returned from runnign a session of Gatewalkers...
And I honestly don't know how to parse AP text and AoN stats quickly enough to facilitate a fluent game. I get stuck in not finding the right spots.

[crystal walrus]

yeah, i'm just wondering if it was core to pre-master.

and they've switched it for witch cuz of how they felt Alchemist playeds.

[solar tendon]

the order has no implications no

[crystal walrus]

no real implications, i was just reading and went "ah- wait wasn't the alchemist core?"

[solar tendon]

apg has been like

incorporated into the new core I guess you could say

[crystal walrus]

do you wanna vent or do you want suggestions, having been in this spot?

[true delta]

Both!

[solar tendon]

like it's not like champion and barb are no longer core or anything

[crystal walrus]

Okie doakily - first off there's no shame in asking for a second opinion when you're needing to read new things. But how are you prepping your AP?

[turbid dagger]

I'm hoping against it, I won't lie
She's in the same boat as Sarenrae to me where she's pretty much a purely positive deity with no interesting narrative angles they could push so her dying is just 'everything gets mildly worse'
Sarenrae is also a lesbian though so I'm more invested in her safety
Sarenrae dying is genuinely the worst outcome

[true delta]

Honestly, I don't prep it too much...? Which I guess is why I need to find stuff again in the text. Uhm... I suppose I should process it into a form I can actually run... ?
Most of what I've been doing in terms of prep has been musings about how to improve the overall story, but that hasn't factored into actual sessions so far.

[surreal basin]

Yeah you should definitely like

[worthy stump]

are you running it in person, or on a VTT?

[surreal basin]

read the statblocks of upcoming enemies in detail

[true delta]

In person, with a laptop

[surreal basin]

to have an idea of how they work and what their battleplan is

[worthy stump]

hmm hmmm

yeah, reading over statblocks is a good idea

[true delta]

I've been thinking: it would be easier for me to use printouts of monster manual pages but those do not link to spells and stuff

[crystal walrus]

You need to prep modules, to some it can be a bit more work- but it can be less too

[worthy stump]

when i was running an AP, it helped to have the PDF open but also just have the most critical and immediately necessary info available ASAP. over a VTT, that meant just having journal notes and such easily organized. in person, you could maybe make a Google Docs or print out index cards or something with what you need to know right away for the next session

[crystal walrus]

IMO - read the chapter, try and prep the monsters for each encounter like you're doing it yourself

that might mean just knowing the important spells and having them written down somewhere, or it might mean writing bits of info as shorthand

If you're using a laptop - what do you do for your notes?

Word Docs, One Note, Evernote?

[true delta]

Just a Google Docs

I do have an unused installation of Obsisian on my device :P

huh

My Google Docs could stand to grow more well-ordered, I suppose. And have links.

[crystal walrus]

I wasn't going to push for that, it's just important you have something you can quick reference

that is true

[true delta]

Yeah...

[crystal walrus]

hey man - first thing to do when solving a problem is to find it

[true delta]

true, true

Hey, this has been great advice. Thank y'all. I appreciate it.

[crystal walrus]

There's a lot of styles of prep online

i know people like Sly flourish's method

[turbid dagger]

Abomvaults update:

MY GROUP ESCAPED

No losses

We love to see it

They backpedaled from the throne room through the thin tunnel, picked up the downed bard, and went into a side room
And as the ||morlocks attempted to follow||, ||the river drake in the water room attacked them||

[turbid dagger]

Question:
Can you pre-poison the ammo in a Capacity or Repeating weapon?

[worthy stump]

Iirc, there’s no explicit duration for how long a poison lasts when applied. It seems reasonable to me, but up to the GM

[solar jacinth]

I'm going to sound like a dolt probably, but where can I get a copy of the new 2.5e ruleset? Or is it even out?

[solar tendon]

player core, gm core, monster core are out as books

the former two are also incorporated into Archives of Nethys the official SRD

2.5 is strong though

it's mostly just an extensive errata and reprinting of Core Rulebook/Gm Guide/Advanced Players Guide

becoming Player Core 1/Player Core 2 (unreleased)/Gm Core

[clever cobalt]

Monster Core

Don't forget that

[solar jacinth]

I'm just wondering which of the new books I should pick up for the new rules.

[solar tendon]

anything with core in the name is part of the remaster

all of which have rules that have changed

[unborn rain]

2.2e

[craggy thunder]

v2.2

[clever cobalt]

2 days until God Deathday

[thorny berry]

me just waiting for them to post mechanics spoilers

[turbid dagger]

[echo briar]

AoN hasn't implemented any APs sense October (for a very good reason lol). Has there been any cool AP architypes sense then?

[limber comet]

October was the start of Seasonbof Ghosts right

[solar tendon]

oh I didn't realise the sandpoint ap was one book

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah its one book but its also double size (200 pages for the 200th volume of APs)

[echo briar]

yes

[clever cobalt]

Wasn't it november?

It's a 4 part AP and Feburary was the last part

October I think was Sky Kings Tomb

[limber comet]

No it started in October

They skipped a month or two to prepare for Seven Dooms

[limber comet]

No archetypes unfortunately, though there are more...ap specific feats

Sorta

Can't get into it bc spoilers

[clever cobalt]

Oh dud they? Huh

Fair enough though

Also do we know whatll be in the stream tomorrow, aside from which God is dying?

[turbid dagger]

As I understand it it'll be a broad overview of What's In WoI
Like the tian xia stream a bit ago

[warped orbit]

hope we'll get some info on what the mythic system is gonna look like

[thorny berry]

yeah I think that's the big question mark

I assume the animist/exemplar stuff will just be mentioning they exist rather than going in on the changes

[turbid dagger]

Maybe they'll showcase some new Ikons!

[warped orbit]

would be cool

Animist also seems to have gotten some semi substantial changes, so that could also be good to show

[limber comet]

I mean we'll probably get more info on the novel (im buying) the ap (maybe buying) and what will be in War of Immortals itself

[thorny berry]

yeah I think I'm moderating my expectations that it's mostly going to be flavor stuff

[limber comet]

They're definitely gonna tease some mechanics

Paizo is generally pretty good about teasing stuff

[limber comet]

Almost time.

[sinful gyro]

Namoleon: Shelyn
Emily: Iomadae
Gabriel: Abadar
Alaizia: Iomedae/Torag
Starduster: Sarenrae
Alaen: Iomedae (side bet, by Arazni)
Gkathellar:
Halo: Sarenrae
Cyan: Lamashtu (but if it is Zon-Kuthon, Cyan gets all the biscuits)
Mourge 40k: Lamashtu
Pennywen: Torag

Final bets

[unborn rain]

is this the final prophecy?

[sinful gyro]

No more prophecy

We find out tomorrow

[true delta]

Dun-Dun-Duuuuuhhhh

[solar storm]

I might change mine to Lamashtu honestly

I’m torn

Lamashtu feels more plausible but I’m kind of expecting a screwball result

[sinful gyro]

Updated it

[light gyro]

streams at midnight where i am so im not gonna find out til thursday

[eager mountain]

Iomedae

[sinful gyro]

Already on there

[eager mountain]

Oh ok

[sinful gyro]

You're above Starduster

[eager mountain]

What do I get if I win?

Sadness

[sinful gyro]

Bragging rights

[unborn rain]

you win the bet

[clever cobalt]

Today is the first potential shipping day for my Tian Xia order 👀

[solar tendon]

excitiiing

[turbid dagger]

So when is the stream?

[sinful gyro]

tune in next week on Tuesday April 16th at 4pm Pacific for the result, plus information on how the War of immortals will impact Golarion moving forward!

[turbid dagger]

Oh quite a while then

[clever cobalt]

I mean it's tomorrow at... 6pm est?

[turbid dagger]

Oh I thought it was today at 6pm est, so even later than I thought lol
I meant in the context of one day

[clever cobalt]

Fair

[sinful gyro]

Time is relative

[surreal basin]

Time is convoluted in Lordran

[barren cipher]

We say Drangleic now

[young chasm]

oh that's funny

gnome flickmace got nerfed again

[warped orbit]

again?

oh I see they forgot to give it sweep

[young chasm]

you think they actually forgot?

[barren cipher]

yeah, they really did it dirty

surely

[warped orbit]

I mean it just got errata'd to have sweep a bit earlier

also is this in the PC book too, or just on AoN?

[barren cipher]

mace spec isn't what it used to be either

[young chasm]

flail nerf was 100% needed

i dont have PC1 so i cant confirm

[barren cipher]

pathbuilder doesn't have it either iirc

[young chasm]

i still think it's good because 1h reach will always be a big offender imo

but man advanced weapons continuously catch flak lol

[warped orbit]

I would have kinda preferred some of the other crit specs being brought up a bit, but yeah it did kinda need it I guess

[young chasm]

i think sword spec fills the niche better of unavoidable off guard

it being an action tax that triggered reactions with no save was killer

[warped orbit]

flail spec is really the only big upside the flickmace has anymore now

but otherwise you might as well use a breaching pike and not need to bother with advanced

asp coil as well, though Versatile P is also kinda nothing

[barren cipher]

in a world where you can get a d6 finesse sweep reach weapon, d6 reach for the same cost seems a little...

[warped orbit]

I do feel like Paizo really needs to reevaluate what they even want advanced weapons to be

[turbid dagger]

Well, breaching is also advanced

[warped orbit]

no?
it's martial

[turbid dagger]

Oh whoof
Brain fart

Sorry bout that
Huh, neat

Maybe I got mixed up since it released with the phalanx piercer

[young chasm]

i agree

[warped orbit]

because rn advanced weapons are almost unusable without a corresponding ancestry feat

[barren cipher]

treasure vault was a bit of a bridge too far in my view

[young chasm]

they're just too inaccessible and not worth the investment

[warped orbit]

and you usually get like, one extra trait for the trouble

[silver geyser]

Most of them are not worth the investment.

There are some standout advanced weapons.

Fire Poi, my beloved

[turbid dagger]

Honestly my thought is like
Unconventional Weaponry should be a general feat, and also apply to any advanced weapons instead of its weirdass restrictions now

[warped orbit]

agreed

[young chasm]

i also think more martial classes need better ways to access advanced weapons cause as it stands it's pretty much only fighter who considers it

[turbid dagger]

Taw Launcher 🥺

[silver geyser]

Barrier Breaker ❤️

[turbid dagger]

Honestly not even Fighter
Like they get that class feat to bump prof with advanced weapons at level 6 or some shit but who is taking that
Its pretty much solely humans or races that have good racial prof pools

[young chasm]

yeah

[silver geyser]

Another advanced weapon I'm getting tempted by is the Bladed Hoop

If only for 0+ hands

[barren cipher]

one more reason why gnome is the best ancestry

[silver geyser]

God, why did the circus book give us some of the best Advanced weapons?

[warped orbit]

hoop is weird IMO

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/hitchhiker-guide-hitchhikers-to-the-gif-20172713

[young chasm]

yeah im willing to believe they forgot to give flickmace sweep in remaster

i didnt even think about that and now i'm just perplexed by it

[silver geyser]

Hoop is a very weird weapon.

But being able to freehand it is pretty nice.

[eager mountain]

Why can’t we just have the gnomes death yo-yo in peace

[warped orbit]

but yeah a lot of advanced weapons are just kinda a comparable martial weapon plus one extra trait

with a few outliers like the falcata

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/arcsystemworks-arcsys-evolution-evo-bridget-gif-26419722

The flickmace

[silver geyser]

Huh. You know, Kobolds get some rad ancestry weapons.

[eager mountain]

Tail weapons?

[solar tendon]

oh handn't seen that

the bladed hoop

[warped orbit]

tricky pick is pretty decent yeah

[silver geyser]

In this case, I'm looking at the Tricky Pick

[eager mountain]

Is it a hoola hoop?

The bladed hoop I mean

[solar tendon]

I like kobold's fangwire but I liked the version in my head

[silver geyser]

The bladed hoop is basically a hoola hoop, yeah.

[solar tendon]

cause I thought it was two handed for some reason

[eager mountain]

Gonna spin my hoop and walk toward you, if you get hit, it’s on you

[warped orbit]

I'm also kind of interested in the Dwarven Scattergun for having both scatter and kickback

which means it does an extra 3 flat damage effectively

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/hulahoop-hoop-spazz-cute-adorable-gif-5491553

Bladed hoop fighter

[solar tendon]

oh shit what

that's so cool

interesting middle ground between the harmona gun and the blunderbuss

OH SCATTER SCALES WITH DICE??

[silver geyser]

Yep!

[solar tendon]

that's actually kinda a gamechanger damn

[silver geyser]

Sawtooth Sabers still make me happy with their statline. Could definitely make a fun TWF build with 'em still.

[warped orbit]

Sawtooth and fun yeah

Just hard to access

There is also dandpatta now though

Which are basically sawtooth without finesse

[silver geyser]

Yes, but red mantis cool

[warped orbit]

For sure

[unborn rain]

Scatter being AoE isnt something I knew

[warped orbit]

It adds a bit of splash to your attacks

Useful in some circumstances

[solar tendon]

the fact it scales with striking is actually wild

just in terms of the fact that means it's much more worth the damage die step

[unborn rain]

Decent secondary option for if you're fighting swarms

[turbid dagger]

What I really want is a gun with kickback and parry
As Vanguard wants both but they're mutually exclusive
(Defensive Armaments sure but I feel like you really want to get a gun that already has parry to make it into a scuffed shield)

[echo briar]

PC gives it sweep. This is a AoN issue

[warped orbit]

okay I figured that was the case

[frank crystal]

Give us a shield gun

[warped orbit]

MH heavy bowgun with the shield 😛

[surreal basin]

there is one

AoN is super fucked up rn

[frank crystal]

Wait there is?

Huh

[warped orbit]

you mean the shield bow?

[surreal basin]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=354

nope

shield pistol

[frank crystal]

Ohhh

[warped orbit]

ironically still doesn't work for Vanguard though, because that needs a weapon with the parry trait and not a shield

[surreal basin]

lmao

[frank crystal]

Give us a kickback, scatter, parry gun

I beg

[warped orbit]

god, that would actually be amazing

for Vanguard

[surreal basin]

wait

does vanguard not work with a sield

????

what guns have parry?

[warped orbit]

not a lot

mithral tree does, I don't remember if there's any others

[surreal basin]

.....

huh yeah

it's about wielding a two handed parry gun

for some reason

man guns and gears is a mess lmao

build a subclass for a weapon category that doesn't exist

[frank crystal]

I mean it definitely felt more like a future proofing mechanic for future crossbows and guns

Because like, the parry trait isn’t required to get a benefit

[turbid dagger]

Well nah, its more about wielding a two handed kickback gun
Its top level Way just has a bonus for Parry
Which you can get through defensive armamanets

[frank crystal]

It’s just additional if you already having something that would give you a +1

[surreal basin]

that's fair

just weird to me

[frank crystal]

Yah vanguard is based around kickback weapons which there’s still plenty of

[surreal basin]

would be like if rogue had a subclass gave you a bonus for using a reach dagger

like that mostly doesn't exist lol

ahhh okay

[frank crystal]

Yah but like, if that feature gave a knife reach

Then yah you would want to specify reach knives get extra

[solar tendon]

oh wait

[frank crystal]

Even if there’s none in the game right now

It just feels like future proofing

[solar tendon]

living fortification and defensive armaments synergise

[surreal basin]

Defensive Armaments does exist, I didn't know about that

okay, slightly less egregious

[solar tendon]

idk why that didn't occur to me till now

[frank crystal]

Oh

Yah that’s actually very obvious then

[surreal basin]

yeah alright, my b

[solar tendon]

it's kinda wierd cause it's like for vanguard mythril tree saves you a feat? I guess?

because mythril tree and defensive armaments doesn't stack for the vanguard stuff

but does stack for Actually Parrying

[surreal basin]

yeah that's wild

okay yeah so like.... the shield pistol is still bad for it tho lmao

it's a one handed weapon

[solar tendon]

shield pistol seems more fun for some kinda weird sword and board drifter

[surreal basin]

yeah that's funny

I like that

very bloodborne

[solar storm]

Oh that sounds fun

[frank crystal]

Combination weapon+dual wielding build using a triggerbrand and shield pistol

Have a normal sword and board build that switched to a dual gun build

[turbid dagger]

I spent last night fantasizing about my pref'd vanguard weapons
d8 kickback parry Fatal d10
And a d6 piercing finesse sword bayonet (two handed guns only, maybe with a cute little bit of text that says it can be used as a shortsword when not attached)

[warped orbit]

That would be neat

[turbid dagger]

I wonder if a Fatal die step is actually worth Parry but tbh I'd take like Deadly d8 or something

[warped orbit]

I think it's fine

[echo briar]

Idea: when Paizo said some minor gods were dying, they actually said miner. Torag and his family all die in a mine collapse

Abadar claims the mine wasn't to code, but Gozreh says that they shouldn't have been mining at all, causing a war

[solar tendon]

abadar did the mine collapse

[echo briar]

alternatively, are there any gods who are minors? How does childhood work with divinity?

[solar storm]

I think all the gods are real old

[thorny berry]

no no it's definitely this

[turbid dagger]

Walkena both has the body of a child and is referred too as such but that's about it

[solar tendon]

walkena is a child

like he's unable to mature

there are some fairly recent apotheoses but afaik most of them were by entities who were like superhumanly old in their own power

[echo briar]

I feel like a child god of childhood exists somewhere

[craggy thunder]

Is that

[craggy thunder]

A fighting game character with a kendama?

[thorny berry]

nah tales of symphonia

[clever cobalt]

Wonder if we'll get any new gods

[surreal basin]

Almost certainly

[craggy thunder]

I gotta say I feel like a flickmace works more like a yo-yo

Like it’s in the name

You flick it

And the force and way it’s constructed makes the flick extend and reel back in the head

Like a yo-yo

I wonder if it’s a new Starstone ascendee killing the god who’s gonna die

[solar tendon]

idk all the startsone gods are core

but

it would also be pretty funny to have a new god who also dies

[surreal basin]

That’s some war of the spark ass shit

[limber comet]

The cube

[craggy thunder]

Every time I hear war of the spark

I have to remind myself that’s mtg

Cuz my mind instantly hears Optimus Prime

[rustic cape]

Having been wrong about Rovagug I am joining the Lamashtu train

[clever cobalt]

Choo choo

[sinful gyro]

Namoleon: Shelyn
Emily: Iomadae
Gabriel: Abadar
Alaizia: Iomedae/Torag
Starduster: Sarenrae
Alaen: Iomedae (side bet, by Arazni)
Gkathellar: Lamashtu
Halo: Sarenrae
Cyan: Lamashtu (but if it is Zon-Kuthon, Cyan gets all the biscuits)
Mourge 40k: Lamashtu
Pennywen: Torag
Rhi: Calistria
Polish Vampire: Lamashtu (Gozreh)
Matt: Sarenrae
Positiveaura: Iomedae

[craggy thunder]

Put me down for Calistria

Hell ye

I am here for the comedy

[echo briar]

put me down as Lamashtu or Gozreh

[limber comet]

SAME

[limber comet]

Can I get uhhh Sarenrae?

[clever cobalt]

Apperently there's an Immortality Ritual in Tian Xia

Spell LEvel 10 Ritual

[heavy fulcrum]

not too surprising, given that they upgraded Wish to Ritual 10 and made it stronger as well

a ritual that just makes you immortal is reasonable at that power level

[scenic patio]

Can I get an Imodea (I can’t spell her name)

[sinful gyro]

Can do

[limber comet]

So,

If the next "big" Lost Omens book is an inner sea region, which one would y'all want

[solar storm]

golden road or cheliax

[limber comet]

I kinda want the Saga Lands or the Golden Road myself yeah

I think the Golden Road could definitely use an update away from all the "gnoll slaver" stuff of 1e

Plus, desert adventures are cool and underrated

[turbid dagger]

Saga Lands for me deffo
More Realm Of The Mammoth Lords 🥺
I wanna learn about Icestair and Tolguth and Kaer Maga
But also I uh
Maybe don't, cuz then I'm Confined By Canon
Running back all the weird stuff from 1e Kaer Maga's book would be good tho
Yearly reminder that the 1e Kaer Maga book has 3 separate slang terms related to halfling-human sex

There's a page of 'kaer maga slang!' and thats a third of it

[limber comet]

Whhhj

1e was so...weird

[turbid dagger]

Truly
But there's so much stuff there that I can see being Awesome when uh
2e-ified

[limber comet]

Oh absolutely

I want the Saga Lands for Irrisen

I've heard it described as a Russian horror folktale which is really good

[turbid dagger]

I don't think the Sarkoris Scar is included in the saga lands but more detail into post-Worldwound Sarkoris would be nice

Demonic High Fantasy S.T.A.L.K.E.R

[limber comet]

I think it's technically in the Broken Lands

So you'd also probably get Numeria

[worthy stump]

numeria book... one day...

[solar tendon]

golden road would be pretty cool yeah

[turbid dagger]

Hmmm
Thinking about that Scizore/Flyssa double slice fighter more
Lightning Swap and he also rocks a Kusarigama 👀
ABP required but

Funny that Knife is like the most varied weapon group aside from maybe swords lol

More seriously, suggestions for archetypes for Double Slice fighter? Dual Weapon Warrior is mostly good but one or two things turn me off
Maybe gladiator with the weapon choice

[solar tendon]

dww is fairly redundant if you're already a fighter yeah

[frank crystal]

play a gnoll and take wrestler

[solar tendon]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=87

speaking of gladiator though I saw this high level archetype and it's got some wild stuff

[frank crystal]

Stepping 10 feet every time you succeed a reflex save is pretty crazy

[solar tendon]

it's also got combat grab but it's two actions but it's not press and it's restrained

[turbid dagger]

Thats..... genuinely pretty canny, but probably not what I'll go for
I am a sad man who does not like just spending a whole action doing nothing but setting up a grapple

[thorny berry]

love how they have that and then went 'but we can't give them scaling proficiency in their advanced weapon that would be too much'

[frank crystal]

goddamn

[turbid dagger]

Honest to goodness I may set this fighter idea aside for 'I get into a non-free archetype game'
Because there genuinely just
Doesn't seem to be much it really needs
Its basically fully online by level 4
You just Double Slice, Twin Parry, and vibe

[solar tendon]

mood

[turbid dagger]

Dual Weapon Warrior has some sleek unique stuff thats fun but I have to contend with the fact that I'll have dead free archetype slots somewhere in the level 4 to 6 range
Because uh
Uh

Definitely what I'm getting into this archetype for yes

[solar tendon]

dead slots suuuck

the other thing that bothers me is that pathbuilder doesn't let you take skill feats with archetype slots

which is probably raw n all but like

[turbid dagger]

Yeah I don't mind that because like
Yeah you sure can't take a skill feat with a class feat slot
Thats correct

[frank crystal]

Those are dual weapon feats

Just

Not the ones you want

[solar tendon]

class feats are like pretty strictly worth more than a skill feat though

it's just

idk free archetype is weird a little

[turbid dagger]

I may wind up taking Gladiator for the double whammy of 'no nonlethal penalty' and 'performance to demoralize'
(Performance to demoralize does not matter but its fun, lets me invest in less skills for more value, and opens up new archetypes sooner since its a skill feat)

[solar tendon]

like on one hand it's an optional rule but on the other hand it's like it really does feel weird when an archetype doesn't have 2 sequential feats from its dedication

[warped orbit]

Ah so that's where Pin To The Spot is from

[limber comet]

Waiting for Howl of the Wild to get a "how to cook monsters" follow up on PF Infinite

[clever cobalt]

https://tenor.com/view/finding-nemo-today-todays-the-day-excited-gif-13929260

[fossil temple]

We always play with it.
But my DM is very straightforward about it.
"If you use it and abuse it, I will up the anty as well."

[clever cobalt]

I've never played a game without FA tbh

It feels like a core rule to me

[rustic cape]

I can imagine playing without it but I think it does like ... introduce build versatility of a sort that is pretty fun

[solar tendon]

yeah no it's just weird cause paizo didnt really predict how popular a rule it would be and some archetypes play weird in it as a result

[fossil temple]

yeah.
And some archetypes are mostly for flavour and a small plus in extremely specific scenarios
But add great flavour

[tough perch]

GMing i do kind of feel the need to make players either all pick flavour options or combat efficiency ones

so if it's for flavour i'd vetto combat styles and certain multiclass combinations

if they want dual weapon warrior or something like that they'd need to use their class feats

[rustic cape]

The trouble with doing that is that by default free archetype locks out other multiclassing until you have the requisite three feats

Obviously you can adjust that rule

But

As always it’s important your table has a centered notion of what level of optimization they’re going for

[tough perch]

yea i do that

i think doing it this way kind of centers everybody on more or less on the same optimization level

[rustic cape]

Yeah it’s just the kind of thing you gotta talk about

[tough perch]

people tend to optimize with their class feats when i do that, even when they're not big optimizers

plus the game is actually pretty tolerant of different levels of optimization, in my experience the biggest factor that throws this off is unrestricted FA

[light gyro]

I thought free archetype ignored the feat tax rule

Oh it's recommended.

If the group all has the same archetype or draws from a limited list, you might want to ignore the free archetype's normal restriction of selecting a certain number of feats before taking a new archetype. That way a character can still pursue another archetype that also fits their character.

[solar tendon]

I think one thing that's fun about restricted free archetype is you can add freedom within it

like if you restrict it to a few archetypes but add new feats to them

[frozen hatch]

So after buying my starting weapon and armor I am left with 30 gold pieces (didn't roll too well for starting cash) and I was wondering what you guys would suggest as good gear/supplies to get with what's leftover as a martial class in 1e?

[eager mountain]

Ima sleep through the god death

[silver geyser]

There's the standard adventurer kits. https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMisc.aspx?Category=Kit

[frozen hatch]

Any class' kit better than the others? I was thinking either the fighter, ranger, or pathfinder kit.

[craggy thunder]

God I can't wait to see who it is

I don't think I guessed right

But I am still carrying a torch for Big Calistria Biting It

[frozen hatch]

Who would be missed the least out of those still in the running for dying?

[clever cobalt]

Lamashtu

Probably

I'm wondering what Lamashtu dying would do

[craggy thunder]

Lamashtu probs ye

[frozen hatch]

That's the goddess of monsters right?

[clever cobalt]

Would the godsparks that drop from her body create Fleshwarped Exemplars

Yeah

basically

[frozen hatch]

Maybe less monstrous mutations in the world?

[light gyro]

or maybe more, sporadically. like with urgotha's death

[frozen hatch]

Urgotha died?

[clever cobalt]

I hope we also learn more about the Exemplar and/or Animist

[light gyro]

sorry, i mean her death prophecy

[clever cobalt]

She was one of the Godsrain prophecies

[frozen hatch]

Ah

So a folding chair is only 2 gold and I'm incredibly tempted to take one...so why shouldn't i?

[silver geyser]

Do it

[worthy stump]

do it. if only for the vergil memes

[echo briar]

I can only assume this is an official hint

So, what god still has a skeleton?

[clever cobalt]

Not me

[solar storm]

Most of them I imagine

Urgathoa is prolly the most prominent skeleton haver

[echo briar]

I mean, do the gods even have anatomy or are they just divine energy in the shape of a person

[clever cobalt]

Who knows

We'll find out soon I guess

[surreal basin]

Probably divine energy

I would guess the mortal-born ones have internals because they think they should

[clever cobalt]

Schrodinger's Skeleton

[echo briar]

Also, if this is an official hint, we know the god can have a grave, so no explosion or fade into nothing

[solar storm]

<t:1713308400:f> is the stream time for the war of immortals which god dies stream