Wait what’s the newest god death/not going to die?
#Pathfinder
frank crystal
turbid dagger
Cayden Cailean
frank crystal
Ah sweet
rapid wagon
where would i find the modifications that an inventor is allowed to make to their weapon?
for context i was trying to find them in pathbuilder
rapid wagon
tyty
was tryng to see if i could make a gnomish inventor with an unstable laser cannon
dang there are not a lot of range modifications
though gunslinger/inventor seems like it might be fun
with a modular rifle
turbid dagger
Gunventor is legit
Megaton strike is like power attack but you can amp it for more damage and it works on ranged attacks
So you can really get the most out of guns
solar tendon
Imma play an unexpectedgunventor
surreal basin
Gigaton Crits must be crazy
solar tendon
not even weapon innovation tho. part of what makes it unexpected
that and the fact it's a clan pistol and I feel like the majority of those are just seen as decoration despite being functional
solar tendon
just walking around with a piece but people's eyes just glaze right over it cause like, that's just a standard dwarf
charred patrol
i've always wanted to use Devastating Weaponry with a Glaive to get the most out of deadly and forceful, but uh
level 18
warped orbit
I always wish Forceful was a little better
outside of whirlwind style stuff I guess
rapid wagon
weird question, but is it a thing to wield a long and short weapon
as a dual wielder
like a dagger and sword
or wakizashi+katana
solar tendon
pretty standard actually yeah
warped orbit
because for that you want your offhand to be agile
rapid wagon
ahhh nice
ok
so i could potentially make a totally not musashi
though i imagine a fighter in clothing is a bit weird
but i can become an expert in unarmored defense yeah?
rapid wagon
yeah no i gotcha
surreal basin
So you need Str and Dex
surreal basin
Mhm
warped orbit
Swash isn't super suited for dual wielding
warped orbit
they tend more towards 1h and free hand
though there is some stuff like Dual Finisher I suppose
surreal basin
Also can’t use a katana
rapid wagon
rogue ruffian might be an interesting angle on historical musashi,
oh is there no way to gain the proficiency for specific weapons?
surreal basin
No I mean they CAN but
warped orbit
Also can’t use a katana
oh right I always forget Swash is pretty much hardlocked into finesse
surreal basin
You can’t use finishers without the weapon being agile or finesse
rapid wagon
ohhh
surreal basin
I think you get locked out of all damage boosts from panache with a str weapon
rapid wagon
so fighter, maybe rogue
surreal basin
Ranger
warped orbit
Fighter would work
surreal basin
Obv
warped orbit
Ranger too yeah
surreal basin
Ranger LOOOOVES dual wield
rapid wagon
also good for dueling being a single guy messer upper
warped orbit
there's also Dual Weapon Warrior to slap it on pretty much anyone
eager mountain
Hate these fuckers
rapid wagon
the platonic ideal is a plain clothes swordsman who uses both of their swords
to frightening effect
charred patrol
...huh, is rapier still the only non-agile finesse weapon that isn't Weird in some way?
warped orbit
depends on what you count as weird I guess
charred patrol
...oh, wait, no, I was filtering by swords
eager mountain
The psychic vampires near wiped my party
charred patrol
whips exist
eager mountain
2 of them
charred patrol
by Weird I was referring to critical fusion weapons or that umbrella thing
warped orbit
ah
I'm a big fan of Bladed Scarf personally
Elven Branched Spear as well
though those are both 2h
surreal basin
There’s also the uhh
Walking stick
The blind stick thing
It’s like the best finesse bludgeoning option lmao
warped orbit
The blind stick thing
probing cane?
solar tendon
probing cane is kinda weird
cause it basically aknowledges that bludgeoning is basically just the better damage type overall
since it's a shortsword that loses versatile and downgrades agile to sweep just to get bludgeoning damage
surreal basin
Tbh it might be less that and more they didn’t want like
Everyone running around with a probing cane
Idk tho
Like it might just be to not make it super optimal
solar tendon
I mean
the corollary of that is you're making the weapon that's especially appropriate for a blind character worse
like I get the argument but the flipside also bothers me
surreal basin
it’s not the only weapon a blind person can use is my thought ¯_(ツ)_/¯
And it’s like a sword cane where you can reasonably take it everywhere
So that’s something
silver geyser
If you are making a blind adventurer, I don't think optimization is your highest priority
solar tendon
feels like making it simple would be a more effective way of doing it if that was the intention anyway
designing it as a simple weapon that is
solar tendon
it's a martial weapon
barren cipher
i'm not sure i want people running around with d8 finesse clubs
or getting tooled up for a bit of mayhem at the accessibility tools store in the bad part of town
solar storm
I might need to find an additional player for Blood Lords...
When does the game happen?
solar tendon
I just don't really see the point of making them their own weapon in the first place in that case tho
cause that's always gonna be an issue
solar storm
Oh heck that kinda works for my schedule…
solar tendon
one way or the other
strange nest
Are there any reliable ways to get a chain sword (I want it cause I think it’s badass (And I’m thinking of making a Belmont thaumaturge lol))
surreal basin
Asp Coil is just a weapon
rapid wagon
chainsword like warhammer chain sword or a sword made up of links
barren cipher
be human, take that one advanced weapon feat, buy an asp coil or chain sword
solar tendon
don't think chain sword has any specfic mechanical access options but like, it's only uncommon
surreal basin
Yknow
Someone brought something up to me recently
Swash and investigator are in player core 2
surreal basin
I wonder if they’re gonna retool them to have to work a little less for their damage
strange nest
chainsword like warhammer chain sword or a sword made up of links
Links, added in treasure vault
surreal basin
Oh it’s advanced that’s what you meant
Yeah be a human or a fighter
And take the requisite feats
fast hill
I love this piece of pathfinder art because a monk kicking a zombie cow in the head goes hard
surreal basin
For a nonhuman nonfighter, without taking adopted ancestry advanced weapons are basically off limits imo
solar tendon
human can't do a chain sword
solar tendon
unless there's a culture that uses chain swords idk
barren cipher
there is
fossil temple
I love this piece of pathfinder art because a monk kicking a zombie cow in the h...
This is hilarious
surreal basin
Man these should not be so hard to get
barren cipher
it's in the chain sword description
fast hill
This is hilarious
IT IS
barren cipher
(sort of)
solar tendon
oh yeah duh
surreal basin
They just need to make the general feat make one advanced weapon martial for your purposes
Imo
barren cipher
A highly technical weapon, the chain sword is valued by duelists and experienced soldiers alike in the nations of Nirmathas and Molthune.
it doesn't say it's common but we can infer that it's readily available i guess?
turbid dagger
I love this piece of pathfinder art because a monk kicking a zombie cow in the h...
My favorite part of this tbh is the idea that the monk iconic would be caught dead anywhere near the plot of blood lords
solar storm
It's completely up to you
I will have to decide augh
solar tendon
I don't think it necessarily means common as in Common
surreal basin
A wholeass general feat is a steep price for access to one singular weapon and locks it to level 3+ for most people
barren cipher
ironically if you're from Nirmathas or Molthune then you can't actually get proficiency using unconventional weaponry
ocean cobalt
chain sword favored weapon deity when
fossil temple
> A highly technical weapon, the chain sword is valued by duelists and experienc...
this one?
solar tendon
it's just mean to account for cultural weapons that aren't Ancestry Cultures
strange nest
it doesn't say it's *common* but we can infer that it's readily available i gues...
I mean, I can’t imagine most gnomes are walkin around with flickmaces
barren cipher
that's the clockwork macuahuitl
fossil temple
oh!
surreal basin
Sorry I’m just venting about the state of advanced weapons, they’re one of the e parts of this game that like
barren cipher
which is terrible for some reason
ocean cobalt
solar tendon
literally nothing interesting is done with weapon proficiency anymore
solar storm
The other chainsword
surreal basin
Yeah it’s just a balancing thing
turbid dagger
which is *terrible* for some reason
Its basically just a 5000 dollar greatclub with versatile S right
fossil temple
https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=227 WHY IS THIS LV8
barren cipher
i think there's a rune for it that is actually ok though, i forget
surreal basin
I get them not wanting like…. Casters running around with the best weapons I guess
turbid dagger
Serrated rune
surreal basin
But yeah it’s kinda an ancillary concept
fossil temple
It's Advanced even
solar tendon
you could just give them proficiency in nothing arguably
solar storm
https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=227 WHY IS THIS LV8
Hard to make
turbid dagger
Serrated rune
d4 slashing damage, action to rev it up and turn the runes damage dice into a d12
surreal basin
Oh wow that club sucks ass
fossil temple
I think is genuinely poorly designed
agreed
solar tendon
like we're so past the point of crossbow wizards being the deal yknow
turbid dagger
Its wild to me that it doesn't even have runes or something
solar tendon
we're in the era of the Cantrip
strange nest
Advance weapons are a silly lol
surreal basin
As written advanced weapons are basically impossible to access without ancestry traits
fossil temple
Its wild to me that it doesn't even have runes or something
YEAH!
Like
It's just expensive for no reason
ocean cobalt
anyway ive thought abt it and i think the best way to do a chainsword would be spellstrike gouging claw
turbid dagger
Yeah wizards have been saved from prof hell
They can just shoot magic at dudes like wizards ought too
solar tendon
I guess realistically speaking no weapon would be made without a culture of using it
unless that culture has like died out
surreal basin
Or it’s a unique weapon or new invention
solar tendon
in which wherever you found it probably has a bound ghost or something to teach oyu
ocean cobalt
i think the way deities work might actually be worse than adv weapons
solar tendon
yeah that's true
fossil temple
Then starfinder comes and it just becomes a day-to-day weapon
ocean cobalt
if only because you see an advanced weapon and go "oh thats cool i guess i can never use it though" and move on with your life
surreal basin
I haven’t seen any problems with gods
fast hill
I will have to decide augh
If you think you'd be constantly blocked from playing (as in like, more than once a month) then that probably wont work, and obviously if you think it'd stop you from doing things you need to do then I'd say focus on that first.
ocean cobalt
if theres a specific deity you want your cleric/champ to be in service to then they have to pass muster or else you're just kind of ruining your own class feature
fast hill
but on the other hand, I'd love to have you
solar storm
If you think you'd be constantly blocked from playing (as in like, more than onc...
On paper I’m free Sundays I just usually catch up on schoolwork then
surreal basin
Other than some of them having restrictive edicts
fast hill
the 2nd is saturday
surreal basin
Which is whatever it’s usually for weirder gods
solar storm
How long do you expect sessions to be… fuck
ocean cobalt
or you just end up picking a god based on what class features you want even if its like diametrically opposite to what you want to play
strange nest
feels like you should be able to like, spend downtime and gold on training with advanced weapon you own (assuming you already have martial weapon training)
turbid dagger
I'm glad that some of my fave advanced weapons do have pretty good ways to access them (taw launcher my beloved), but yeah its a problem for stuff like the Falcata
solar storm
Nvm I can’t read good my Saturdays are much less available
strange nest
feels like you should be able to like, spend downtime and gold on training with ...
so the gm can actually give them as rewards
surreal basin
Yeah I would probably just let someone train for advanced weapons
turbid dagger
Also on the god note I will say that splinter faith and so on exists for people who REALLLLY want to worship Desna but REALLLLLLY want Zeal domain
(Talk to your GM first tho)
surreal basin
I mean I don’t want gods and mechanics to be totally seperate
fast hill
I mean alternatively I just pick a god and then base my character on the god
surreal basin
In a perfect world all domains would be equally balanced but that’s not really realistic
fast hill
yeah some domains suck
surreal basin
Idk how else it could really work other than unlinking domains and gods which
fast hill
but like oh well
ocean cobalt
i think that would be good honestly
surreal basin
Yeah
I do think it’s fucked up that some gods get more spells than others, that part I don’t like
Nethys should only have 3 spells
fast hill
ye
surreal basin
Fuck you
ocean cobalt
i think the ideal thing for me would be spell list alterations based on domain instead of deity
fast hill
I dunno I think that's like, very on brand
ocean cobalt
and favored weapon is something listed for each deity but its not like mandatory, you get simple weapons + 1 martial or advanced weapon of your choice
surreal basin
He’s not a stronger god than everyone else
fast hill
I never felt like I was losing anything from not taking it
and imo that's the important balance
surreal basin
Yeah idk, I get where you’re coming from but I don’t find it to be a huge issue
solar storm
Yeah it doesn’t really seem like a problem
surreal basin
This seems like something to houserule rather than want Paizo to change, personally
fast hill
like the worst kinds of balance are like, spellcasters in 1e or dnd
ocean cobalt
it just bugs me conceptually
fast hill
they feel so strong that you feel like you're losing out not being one
surreal basin
Also it would lead to some domains instantly getting you to lose your cleric powers
See a pharasmin cleric of undeath domain
ocean cobalt
ok then don't play an undeath domain pharasmin
surreal basin
Right but conceptually there shouldn’t be mechanical traps like that
ocean cobalt
if it goes against you edicts or anathema You Can't Do That
surreal basin
Idk
solar storm
I don’t really like making it more open ended
ocean cobalt
Right but conceptually there shouldn’t be mechanical traps like that
i'm saying that literally wouldn't be allowed
solar storm
Open ended clerics are like the worst thing thematically and it’s already a class I only fw in premade settings
surreal basin
Yeah I feel like domains and spells granted are the big mechanical shine through of the god you worship
turbid dagger
Yeah I don't think it really like
Works
Why would a Desnan cleric ever get the War Domain
And if we're specifically banning it because it 'doesn't make sense' for desna we're just getting associated domains again, just in reverse
fast hill
yeah that's kinda my point
have reverse associated domains
restricted domains or whatever
I think it's perfectly fine as is though
solar storm
My albeit sort of strong take is that if you’re not interested in the baggage of closely following a deity you should pick another class
solar storm
And if anything deities should become more bespoke and less standardized
clever cobalt
or another diety
turbid dagger
Hey! That reminds me
An archetype to gank devotion spells is coming in War Of The Immortals
So that will be nice
clever cobalt
wdym gank?
surreal basin
steal for nonclerics I assume
clever cobalt
ah
turbid dagger
Its an archetype that just lets you take any domain
Because you are embodying that concept yourself instead of getting it from a god
clever cobalt
Nice
turbid dagger
It was originally a thing in the exemplar playtest but its getting spun off into an archetype
turbid dagger
In the after-action for the playtest iirc
surreal basin
They said they were- yeah
ocean cobalt
My albeit sort of strong take is that if you’re not interested in the baggage of...
not really what i'm saying
clever cobalt
Fair enough
ocean cobalt
there is already a mechanic for following deity which is edicts/anathema. that is a good thing and i like it
clever cobalt
I do wonder how Exemplar is gonna change from the Playtest to Final Version
like the Kineticist changed a lot, for example
ocean cobalt
not really what i'm saying
oh my bad on the @
clever cobalt
there is already a mechanic for following deity which is edicts/anathema. that i...
I mean sure, but I don't see domains as a bad thing
being able to pick nearly any domain as a cleric seems weird (and a bit powergamey)
ocean cobalt
that is already a thing that exists by virtue of You Can Have Your Character Follow Whatever God You Want
clever cobalt
Yeah, but it's different when you're a cleric
Cause you're literally devoting yourself to a god and their aspects
solar tendon
domains are a diagetic thing
fast hill
there is a difference between being a worshipper and someone who is granted superpowers for embodying their god on Golarion
clever cobalt
yeah, that
solar tendon
like in golarion domains are real
outside golarion you have no obligation to make gods work the way they do on golarion
ocean cobalt
if you want access to off-list spells restricted (agree with this) than the easiest thing to do seems to just be tying spells directly to domain
clever cobalt
seems needlessly complicated if you ask me
ocean cobalt
it is less complicated in fact
fast hill
anyway on the "Desna cleric of war" I feel like you can get the same themes with being a champion who follows Desna
clever cobalt
why not just limit certain spells from certain gods? Like X God Cleric can't have Spell Y
solar tendon
that would also mean you'd have to take the fire domain to get fire spells as a sarenrae cleric
ocean cobalt
that would also mean you'd have to take the fire domain to get fire spells as a ...
it would also mean you would be able to get any fire spells from asmodeus at all if the thing you've decided for your cleric is that they are a Fire Caster Devoted To Asmodeus
clever cobalt
I mean, can't you do that already?
fast hill
considering his domains do include fire
clever cobalt
Adding in a "chose domain" thing seems more complicated and kinda reduces gods to mechanical benefit
silver geyser
Not really
clever cobalt
Regardless, being able to chose your domain while worshipping a god seems kinda... having your cake and eating it too
ocean cobalt
they are less of a mechanical benefit if the game prioritizes domain
surreal basin
This is going in circles
clever cobalt
like Cyan said, gods should be more bespoke, not simplified
surreal basin
We disagree
clever cobalt
and yeah we are
surreal basin
That’s that beginning and end of it lol
What I was gonna say earlier
Is that investigator and swashbuckler are getting remastered
And I’m hoping they maybe have to work a little less hard for their damage :3 or at least get a few touch ups
solar storm
Oh man this is super not a conversation I want to deal with
clever cobalt
I'm confused as well, admittedly
fast hill
I like the way swashbuckler works imo
clever cobalt
but uih
surreal basin
It’s just the meme of swashbuckler doing a bunch of gymnastics for 4 damage lol
surreal basin
I’ve played a swash and had a great time
fast hill
I prefer working hard for that 4 damage than just getting 4 damage for free because atleast I'm doing something cool
and roleplaying
solar storm
This is just gonna be another circular “x class is bad” “no it’s not” thing for 20-40 minutes and I don’t care
rapid wagon
I keep wanting to turn the swash into a samurai flick duelist, but I'd have to flavor something else as the katana I think
I also like the idea of a monk turned samurai movie character, but have the same issue
ocean cobalt
dueling sword works alright
rapid wagon
Maybe temple sword-as-katana for monk
And yeah dueling series could easy be a katana in flavor
Sword*
barren cipher
doing it completely within RAW is a little difficult but i don't think it should be all that hard to import dueling sword to monk as a solution
and monk is probably where it's at
ocean cobalt
wait elven curve blade as well
barren cipher
seems like a class archetype kind of thing
rapid wagon
I wonder if a monk with the Cleric devotion could pull off the traditional itinerant Buddhist style monk, with the shakujo and maybe worshiping irori
barren cipher
yeah elven curve blade and the associated feat lines could work ok raw
there could be something of a delay i guess
silver geyser
Delays are fine.
solar storm
That is nice
ocean cobalt
uhh but for monk specifically i guess that does mean monastic weaponry + whatever the other thing is that lets you monastic weaponry with ancestry weapons
so that's level 2 instead of 1
warped orbit
do hope Monk gets more support for Monk weapons in PC2 as well
more feats for it and/or more weapon stances would be nice
turbid dagger
Man more weapon stances would whip
whirlwind stance as a base monk feat please
warped orbit
the unarmed stances are just rn so strong and have way more support
so I feel more payoff for using weapons as Monk would also be nice
turbid dagger
I'm still firmly of the opinion that temple sword and bo staff monk are at least on par with unarmed stances though
strange nest
A full scroll and talisman Thaumaturge seems like fun
Heal scrolls are a lot cheaper than potions
turbid dagger
Its something I've thought about myself
I've had trouble finding any crazy useful talismans beyond the basic potency crystal early on but having them wont HURT
And scrolls are VERY nice
Especially as they can be from any tradition
warped orbit
I'm still firmly of the opinion that temple sword and bo staff monk are at least...
Bo Staff is pretty good, yeah
warped orbit
Scroll Thaum is nuts good IMO
strange nest
and you can also mess with retrieval prism or gloves of storing (if you can get them) to fix action econ for an in-combat scroll of your choice
warped orbit
even just taking the basic feat is super powerful, the free scroll ones afterwards are just a nice bonus
turbid dagger
Retrieval prism is cool yeah
Though you can already double fist scrolls with scroll thaumaturgy and are you really gonna be using three scrolls in one fight
warped orbit
being able to use any scroll opens up so many options
silver geyser
Being able to be a good support magic faker is one of the nice things about Thaum.
warped orbit
there's a ton of strong buffs that are pretty cheap to buy after a while
silver geyser
You can be a striker quite easily, but also you got a bevy of support options built in.
turbid dagger
And since thaum feats are, imo, not really catering to the striker side anyway, you just do both
silver geyser
TBF, I don't know how much more encouragement Thaum needs for striking.
strange nest
Retrieval prism is cool yeah
Though you can already double fist scrolls with scr...
Wouldn’t holding scrolls shut down implements empowerment?
turbid dagger
The feat chain makes scrolls count as esoterica iirc
warped orbit
effectively yeah
turbid dagger
TBF, I don't know how much more encouragement Thaum needs for striking.
Yeah, its already pretty nuts
The only purely 'do damage gooder' feat I can recall for them is Twin Weakness
strange nest
raw it lets you hold them in the same hand as an implement, but it doesn’t seem to make them esoterica
unless there was an errata or clarification or something
warped orbit
letting you hold and draw them like they were esoterica seems enough to make them not turn off Empowerment IMO
strange nest
makes sense to me
turbid dagger
Its very weirdly phrased
Basically all the rules text there
But how I see it is that the scrolls basically become free hand
Your hands are holding only implements, the scrolls are like
Stapled on
But I'm sure this is a topic that receives much heated discussion in the RAW Pits of some PF2e communities so your mileage may vary depending on GM
And thus retrieval prism may be more or less useful
strange nest
i mean, having your implement against the unnatural be covered in scrolls and scriptures is pretty neat
turbid dagger
Roll up with the
warped orbit
it's still funny to me he never even unwrapped the cleaver
turbid dagger
I assume the wrap is the important part tbh
Its sealed with sacred seals? No. Its a sacred seal delivery system
Also RE:Are the temp scrolls esoterica
The feat does say they are assembled from your esoterica
And Esoterica is in the name
And it has the Esoterica trait
So
I feel you must be good
barren cipher
ah, that doesn't mean it is esoterica, it means it needs esoterica
i think the design intent is probably that you can hold a scroll without penalty
they have not done a good job of explaining it though
turbid dagger
Yeah that's where the Bloodwar Of The Great RAW Pits comes in
barren cipher
i think there's a reasonable argument to be made that you aren't supposed to be running around with a scroll 24/7 and it's just so it doesn't absolutely ruin your hand economy when you draw and use one
charred patrol
Twitter
echo briar
I wonder if they’re gonna retool them to have to work a little less for their da...
Substantial changes to both have already been confirmed. We don't know what those are, but they are changing
Honestly, I just think the investigator needs feat support.
Like, its main mechanic really benefits from having special attacks and cool non attack things, but it lacks both of those in its own feats, forcing it to steal from architypes. If it just had those in kit, it would raise the floor substantially
The swashbuckler needs substantially more help
warped orbit
more skill actions and other non Strike things would be useful for Investigator, yeah
and I do also think that having easier ways to access the no action DaS would be good
having played one for a while now
barren cipher
pf2e being what it is, i think they're both fine, but with some more time to cook i think they could be made to sing
warped orbit
Leads are pretty finnicky if your GM isn't very lenient rn
barren cipher
it isn't like you're sandbagging by playing investigator over rogue or swash over fighter
warped orbit
it's less that the classes are non functional, and more that I think they could use some QoL
echo briar
Yea, I've played one for 12 levels. You are not useless by any means, but theres just a lot of little things that could be made better
surreal basin
I was told not to discuss this so I will leave my original comment to stand on its own
warped orbit
Like, its main mechanic really benefits from having special attacks and cool non...
mostly this is something I agree with a lot
Investigator hugely benefits from casting dedications, or skill focused archetypes like Medic to fill its turns when you get a bad DaS roll
echo briar
I legitimately think that Investigators having a version of this feat could singlehandedly improve a lot https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1889
Because this feat, which isn't even an investigator feat, shows most of the benefits of DaS
warped orbit
having ways to gain attack bonuses can help push your roll over a threshold yeah
though especially if you are ranged, which I personally feel a lot of Investigators will be, you're mostly relying on Hide/Create a Diversion
echo briar
Melee builds get the shifting rune, which can be very good
If you hit, use a high base die weapon. If you crit, use fatal
turbid dagger
.... Can you transform a melee weapon into a combo weapon with shifting
Like axe to gunsword
warped orbit
I think yes
turbid dagger
Lmao
barren cipher
You can put a property rune on a combination weapon as long as it's appropriate for either of the two usages, but if only one of the usages meets the property rune's requirements, the effects of the property rune only apply for that usage.
warped orbit
the shifting rune will just be only active when wielding the melee profile
which also gets a bit weird
turbid dagger
So really youd put it on a gunsword sword, and transform it into a greataxe or what have you when not shooting gun
surreal basin
Sometimes I think about if I could get away with just
Reworking a bunch of stuff from Guns and Gears
As a homebrew/third party project
trail nova
What would be the goal?
turbid dagger
I've already made a homebrew barb instinct in part to have a class that actually loves gynsword
surreal basin
What would be the goal?
To make the power level and juice of the content more in line with later releases such as secrets of magic or rage of elements
Which I feel it isn’t really
Personally
warped orbit
I've already made a homebrew barb instinct in part to have a class that actually...
oh yeah, your Hunter actually works with combination weapons
didn't think about that
surreal basin
Not bad could just be juicier
trail nova
Ah. Yeah, that makes sense. I haven't been much impressed with PF 2e's juice in general.
surreal basin
I think honestly I could get away with just making combo weapons reload and switch with the same action
warped orbit
I'm still partial to trying out just letting combination weapons use both profiles without needing to switch
trail nova
But then again I really like stupid movement tricks, so...
surreal basin
Or - yeah that
warped orbit
they already pay for versatility by being worse than comparable weapons generally
surreal basin
Yeah that’s true
turbid dagger
oh yeah, your Hunter actually works with combination weapons
didn't think about ...
Yep!
For my playtests I'm planning on
Hornbow hunter
Harmona hunter
Gunsword hunter
For the builds to try
surreal basin
That’s a later project tho
I gotta finish my Dragonborn
Which I’m thinking of maybe putting on pathfinder infinite?
Weird construct dragon people
trail nova
But in general I feel like PF2e is a good project that stumbled in the last 10% or built great stuff on a shitty foundation. (Outside of a few areas. I think Casting is a "balanced in the worst way" situation rn.)
trail nova
Nah, just... idk. It's vibes of not quite hitting my "good vibes"
Weird jank like old focus points, or reaction attacks being so good.
surreal basin
I don’t think the latter is jank per say
They’re kinda hard to get and reactions in general are very good
Also it’s… I won’t say easy to avoid them, but generally not oppressive
trail nova
Yeah, true. I guess the high cost on forced movement since it serves as action denial would be another one.
barren cipher
it's so awkward when almost everything works
trail nova
Or Advanced Weapons and proficiencies more broadly.
surreal basin
Yeah that one is still kinda rough
barren cipher
like shadowrun 5e does not work, so when it doesn't work and you have to sort it out yourself it's fine
rustic cape
Or 3.5 which runs entirely on gentleman’s agreements
barren cipher
pf2e works, so when you want to craft an arrow and the outcome is highly unexpected it's very jarring
surreal basin
Or 3.5 which runs entirely on gentleman’s agreements
Which extends to PF1E
“Okay we all agree pit spells don’t exist, okay”
trail nova
Which extends to PF1E
It's... a lot less of a thing.
rapid wagon
at least in my experience its pretty common
surreal basin
Still definitely there
rapid wagon
with 1e
rapid wagon
imo 1e has got a lot of bloat, a lot of dead options, and a lot of broken options
the latter making the former worse
surreal basin
An optimized control wizard is just pokemon stalling tactics but it takes up 6 hours of my time :3
rapid wagon
im also not a huge fan in general of optimization leading to "I have done 14 things, taking up about 17 minutes for my turn alone, all to achieve this deterministic effect"
creates the sense, much like mtg, of like... "Oh snap, I don't need to be here for you to play the game"
though also in my experience a lot of character options are a distraction from: I have created my ultimate math sword. I swill swing it and subtract your health from your health
a major thing, honetly, that i hope for out of pf2e is a little less "I stand here and full attack" vibes
bit more dynamic movement in a battle
trail nova
... I got reminded of an item that was "take damage each round." I saw from 3pp in 1e. It made sense for the book it was in, since the class got buffs from being attacked by magic.
thorny berry
and I do also think that having easier ways to access the no action DaS would be...
yeah this is the thing I'm hoping for in the remaster, and frankly I say just give it to em or make pursuing a lead one action or something
having a full-ass action per turn locked behind negotiating with your dm is
not great!
warped orbit
They have some ways in class already
It's just that other than Leads, your earliest option is I think Suspect of Opportunity at level 10
thorny berry
investigator isn't exactly burning up the charts compared to rogue anyway
solar tendon
I think rewarding out of combat play is good tbh
thorny berry
They have some ways in class already
It's just that other than Leads, your earli...
Agreed, I think the current design is very feat tax-y
solar tendon
like idk sure it would be convenient
clever cobalt
What's a good shifting weapon for a Falcata 
warped orbit
What are you shifting for?
clever cobalt
Uhhhhhh
Idk I'm just being purely theoretical I guess
I didn't put much thought in admittedly
warped orbit
Generally Shifting is used to circumvent or exploit specific resistances/weaknesses
warped orbit
I think rewarding out of combat play is good tbh
the thing is that you need to find a clue first, that points to a specific creature
and then when you find that creature you also need to clearly identify them based on the clue
RAW anyway
so it only really works great for clearly identifiable single targets, mostly boss monsters or major antags
if you actually found a clue pointing to them in advance
thorny berry
I think rewarding out of combat play is good tbh
I agree with this holistically, but not with how it's implemented w/r/t devise a stratagem specifically.
My take is that the class should reward out of combat play by just... being better at out of combat play (which it does, to be clear, though there's plenty of areas where feat offerings and so on could be pushed farther). Being advantaged in that way gives the class a more narrative-forward ability to influence the time and place of engagement or to prepare for it in advance; nailing a knowledge check on some tracking and using your alchemical sciences stuff to whip up some elemental resistance or whatever is, to me, a great way of rewarding out of combat play.
On the flip side, not getting free devise feels like a punishment; you don't have a new additional thing you're better at, you just don't get to play with one of your toys this encounter.
solar tendon
No I do mean specifically rewarding out of combat play within combat
It means combat is not a white room divorced from the context of the world it is happening in
trail nova
I think DaS action cost is too big a swing for that though.
solar tendon
I would kinda agree ye
it should be more like hunt prey
but not completely like hunt prey to the extent I feel like ppl forget or don't realise it's even a thing
trail nova
Particularly since sometimes it's "this entire adventure it's a free action" and sometimes it's "ohh, sorry. You might get it for the boss. If you get lucky."
solar tendon
I think that should be fixed by being less wishy washy on what a lead even is
but idk in my experience free devise did seem to feel like a reward; but that's something that should be tuned to be a more consistent experience, yes
rapid wagon
I kinda also feel like dependency on GM engagement with the story isn't a bad thing; and that generally speaking clues should exist for major entities in the campaign
trail nova
It feels like a lot of more recent classes have been really tight on action economy.
solar tendon
my player was like "I think interpreting it this way means I don't have to work for it, and that feels bad" and not "I feel bad spending an action"
solar tendon
and yeah there are other games for combat systems that don't have any narrative layer interaction
I don't particularly feel the need to advocate for pathfinder to become something else
obv that's a slippery slope argument but yeah
the idea of an investigator that doesn't care that they're fighting the thing they've been tracking for a week mechanically seems boring to me
and like idk. maybe the class could communicate it better, but I think you could make the same argument and be like "it feels bad as an alchemist when there's no weakness to proc"
which is. maybe a valid argument to be fair
warped orbit
tbh, the weakness argument does always irk me a little
because weaknesses aren't really that common
rapid wagon
its a bit funny in my mind that fire resistance is the most common, yet in general fire is the source of the most fear for most creatures living in a fantasy quasi medieval environment specifically because most things are "weak" to fire
warped orbit
but people always argue stuff like "oh but if you got like four monsters with a weakness all in splash radius, bombs do insane damage"
but how often does that actually happen
solar tendon
it's feast or famine
rapid wagon
weakness is a flat number in 2e right?
solar tendon
especially with like the homogeneity of AP encounter design
warped orbit
yes
warped orbit
I mean they aren't like, super uncommon either
I think of all the monsters in the game, it's like 20-ish percent that have a weakness?
rapid wagon
"You've discovered my one weakness, getting stabbed in the face! Noooooo"
solar tendon
but on a campaign basis that can be like 0% or 100%
warped orbit
it really varies I feel
solar tendon
like every single undead has I think even multiple weaknesses
rapid wagon
one that i see a lot of commentary on are the basic damage types, in that most things that are resistant to 1 are resistant to the others
warped orbit
even with something like, an undead focused campaign
rapid wagon
which really begs the question, why have 3 seperate basic damage types then
warped orbit
there's a lot of undead that aren't particularly weak to positive either
surreal basin
Tbh I don’t think alchemist actually needs weakness that much
solar tendon
this isn't the really the big point of the conversation tbf
surreal basin
Fair
warped orbit
Tbh I don’t think alchemist actually needs weakness that much
I'm not sure
but people always bring it up as a big point in favor of bombs IMO
surreal basin
Yeah my big thing with investigator is that leads could stand to be more clear
rapid wagon
my thought comes from commentary i saw about the two damage types available to metal kineticist being slashing and piercing. the opinions i saw were like "it doesn't really solve and resistance issues because if the enemy is resistant to slashing, they are probably also resistant to piercing
surreal basin
Like it’s really unclear how they intend them to work imo
warped orbit
my thought comes from commentary i saw about the two damage types available to m...
that's commonly the case, yes
surreal basin
In terms of scale
rapid wagon
which makes me go "why do i have 2 options then"
solar tendon
Like I don't blame anyone for coming in with the assumption that 1a devise will be the exception and not the rule
surreal basin
There are uncommon scenarios in which it would be uh
solar tendon
cause it's not like the writing has much at all to say on the matter
surreal basin
In which something is weak to slashing OR piercing
Or resistant to one or the other
It’s a sometimes food
rapid wagon
hmm i guess thats fair
surreal basin
But also metal kinetic gets to grab the feat that lets them do special metals
warped orbit
zombies are fairly universally weak to slashing
surreal basin
So they get to proc a massive amount of weaknesses anyhow
rapid wagon
yeah that also came up later
solar tendon
pathfinder but everyone has like a low weak - neutral - resist to the 3 damage types
surreal basin
Or at least bypass resistance
solar tendon
just like 2 or something
warped orbit
just for resistances, piercing and slashing are often bundled together
or its blanket phys resistance
rapid wagon
its just one of those things that like irks me is that if you have basic damage types, they should interact a bit
or just have 1 basic damage type
solar tendon
I mean you'd still have ppl doing statistical analysis on it but eh
surreal basin
Tbh I think the number of monsters that have weaknesses and bypassable resistances is very acceptable
solar tendon
altho I think Gubat Banwa tried 'everyone has weakness and vulns' and it was a lot of bookkeeping
surreal basin
Unless your GM is purposefully avoiding it I think you will run into several monsters with exploitable weaknesses
In a given campaign
warped orbit
for elemental weaknesses the most common one by far is also fire
followed by positive and good
rapid wagon
that makes sense to me
surreal basin
But fire is also one of the most resisted energy types!
warped orbit
and cold second after fire
warped orbit
But fire is also one of the most resisted energy types!
it is, yes
rapid wagon
i always see people malign fire damage as being the most common resist so not worth; but i feel like diagetically, fire is often terrifying
surreal basin
At least in my head, bypassing resistance works out to be like
Really similar to proccing weaknesses
warped orbit
it kind of is, yes
solar tendon
if the enemy is built correctly it almost literally is the same
warped orbit
it is very hilarious vs zombies though
if you can deal slashing and positive, you absolutely demolish them
surreal basin
At least it’s not the immortal 5e zombies that you have to nat20 or hit with a rare damage type
I think about that a lot
warped orbit
a lot of fiends also have pretty high good weakness
solar tendon
cause they tried to be genre savvy and made a fire dragon sorcerer but got it wrong
in March of the Dead
warped orbit
yeah
solar tendon
mm
rapid wagon
apparently fire kineticist pans out to still be the most damagey of the kineticists despite fire being a common resist
surreal basin
I imagine they failed like 90% of that characters saves lmao
warped orbit
apparently fire kineticist pans out to still be the most damagey of the kinetici...
Kinet also has less issue with resist, thanks to Extract Element
also Fire aura counteracts it with the weakness
Fire Kinet mostly is high damage thanks to good flexible impulses like Flying Flame, and good interactions between the aura junction and its available auras
surreal basin
Also despite being commonly resisted
turbid dagger
fewer piercing ones that I know of
There's like two jellyfish and a level 22 superboss that are weak to piercing, according to my last search on the topic
surreal basin
Tbh I feel like I don’t run into heavy fire resist THAT often
surreal basin
Piercing is definitely the weakest of the physical damage types but also like
I don’t super care?
It really doesn’t matter that much
warped orbit
it doesn't, no
still feels a little bad though that for the most part B is just the "good" physical type
turbid dagger
It definitely doesn't yeah
90% of the time you will stab a thing and it will go ow
solar tendon
I think B has the least vibes and that's what balances it
rapid wagon
just meant i had fewer ways to circumvent resistances to my damage earlier on
warped orbit
generally you're most likely to see blanket phys resist anyway
well okay except skeletons I guess
turbid dagger
I am thinking of getting mindsmith on my Spirit Barbarian for modular bps
warped orbit
which is probably somewhat relevant in Blood Lords
solar tendon
like paizo are like if you're gonna play man with club here's a little somethin somethin
tbf I do wonder if it's kinda to do with like
I feel like a classic covering your bases thing is you have your sword that is your main weapon and then a mace for bludgeoning
so because bludgeoning was the assumed secondary measure for the main martial types
(cause like cleric had to use bludgeoning)
warped orbit
the most likely thing is just that they go off vibes primarily
turbid dagger
I have noticed that generally blunt weapons kind of lack Juice
I think the sexiest one is the Gada which is kind of just a bastard sword with B and backswing
And, by technicality, the Holy Taw Launcher since its modular
solar tendon
it created this tradition of interpreting bludgeoning being the thing to go with
warped orbit
which is also what they said of why ancestry boost are kinda biased towards a few stats
solar tendon
I think I'm mainly thinking of slime
like
I don't think vibe wise there's an argument you can't make for a particular damage type against oozes right
warped orbit
I have noticed that generally blunt weapons kind of lack Juice
I think the sexie...
laughs in flails and hammers
warped orbit
I don't think vibe wise there's an argument you can't make for a particular dama...
oh yeah the ooze thing is a legacy thing mostly
surreal basin
Still think it’s horseshit that piercing splits slimes
solar tendon
yeah and that's kinda my whole musing
solar tendon
is if there's a legacy thing going back to a backup mace just being the thing you did
rapid wagon
i do love mechanical incentive to carry alternatives tbh
warped orbit
I guess instead of vibes I should have said, I think theres a few things they had concerns other than balance primarily
rapid wagon
i still maintain that a boot sheath for a knife is always warranted
never know when you'll need a backup knife
surreal basin
I do find it really that concussive for firearms mostly amounts to “this secretly does bludgeoning damage”
solar tendon
I mean I was completely joking by suggesting paizo inentionally buffed bludgeoning cause no one wants to use a club to be clear
rapid wagon
though i suppose as a skeleton in my upcoming game, i can just hide stuff inside myself
surreal basin
Since bludgeoning is
Uh
Good
I can’t imagine a scenario in which I’d rather do piercing lol
warped orbit
I do find it really that concussive for firearms mostly amounts to “this secretl...
it does help occasionally yeah
turbid dagger
If you are shooting jellyfish!
And Ouroboros
surreal basin
lol tru
solar tendon
which armour specialty gives bludgeoning resist
turbid dagger
I still want leather dex heavy armor
I don't care how little sense it makes, I don't want to keep putting armored skirts on splint mail for dex champ 
warped orbit
I guess Hide Armor exists
rapid wagon
uh, id do piercing damage in a moment where the gm accepts my argument that piercing should help me in a specific narrative scenario
i guess
solar tendon
makes an enemy family of hide wearing armour specialists
warped orbit
yeah Hide is the only medium+ leather armor
turbid dagger
With their 2 blunt resist
Gasp
The terror
warped orbit
With their 2 blunt resist
Gasp
The terror
1+potency to be precise 😛
solar tendon
maybe it's +3 hide
warped orbit
Barricade Buster
solar tendon
cause the extra 2 resist is definitely better than how much better weapons would be at that point
clever cobalt
understandable have a nice day
solar tendon
ammo chain weapon modification that gives you a load of ammo but requires someone to feed it to you
turbid dagger
I've been doing most of this convo while walking my dog
Now that I am back home I should start thinking about how to do a homebrew playtest on foundry 🤔
I wonder if I can edit copies of like
Barbarian class features in the foundry compendium
To do that
solar tendon
tbf the barricade buster is basically just a revolver
turbid dagger
I think getting the damage bonus this class gets to automate on ranged weapons will be A Nightmare
solar tendon
a really big revolver with multiple barrels
turbid dagger
tbf the barricade buster is basically just a revolver
Its this doohickey
solar tendon
yeah but with an automatic firing mechanism
which is probably just a big crank I would assume
that cocks the hammer, advances a barrel and drops the hammer
or wait
do golarion cartridges have primers
doesn't seem like it
gosh paper cartridges just really isn't the vibe for alkenstar I feel
solar tendon
more my problem is I feel like alkenstar should have brass
rapid wagon
yeah thats a vibe
solar tendon
brass everywhere
warped orbit
I personally headcanon most firearms to be breech loading and using cartridges
Because that actually makes the loading times reasonable
Though why everything is still single-shot anyway is the bigger mystery
surreal basin
I still want leather dex heavy armor
I don't care how little sense it makes, I d...
Dex….. heavy armor?
trail nova
I guess heavy armor bonus level, but allowing high dexterity.
clever cobalt
Isn't one of the goals of 2e to avoid dex tanks?
I could be wrong but iirc they try to avoid it
warped orbit
You could probably make some 3 AC +3 Dex maybe
solar tendon
I mean
warped orbit
Though the question would probably still be who it's for
solar tendon
2e has monk haha
warped orbit
Also yeah Monk is definitely Dex tank
solar tendon
It doesn't have dex tanks but in the sense that there isn't a stat you can scale infinitely in contrast to armour stopping at full plate
frank crystal
Isn’t the way to get +6 for dex just to wear explorers clothes?
clever cobalt
Monk is the exception, not the rule
warped orbit
Though you can technically do that in ABP
solar tendon
monks start at +6
warped orbit
But it's probably not intended
solar tendon
because they get expert armor prof at level 1
but eventually do fall behind champion
frank crystal
But only for unarmored?
solar tendon
ye
frank crystal
IC
solar tendon
well except mountain stance but then that's not dex anymore
but yeah I don't think a +3 dex cap heavy armour would really be enabling dex tanking at all
you still need heavy armour prof
surreal basin
Tbh armor still feels strange as a system to me
Like any of the good armors result in p much the same AC
I think this is me conflicting with like
Modern dnd armor in general tho
clever cobalt
I'm pretty sure that's intentional
solar tendon
I think that's kinda what armour spec is meant to add more nuance for
frank crystal
Tbh armor still feels strange as a system to me
Like any of the good armors resu...
I mean there’s the super heavy stuff
That’s a +6
surreal basin
Yeah but like
Almost everyone ends up at +5 or +6 if they have any physical stat investment
Be that strength or dex
frank crystal
Everything else caps at +5 though
frank crystal
And I assume unless they’re a champ their runes and profs are the same
surreal basin
Idk I’m just thinkin
Feels like various means to achieve the same result
Although it mostly effects what kinds of magic armor you wear
solar tendon
there's also flexible/noisy vs standard
strange nest
I've already made a homebrew barb instinct in part to have a class that actually...
Where could I find this btw?
solar tendon
there are options beyond an algorithm that takes your strength and dexterity and spits out a name and a gold cost
but you're not wrong
turbid dagger
Dex….. heavy armor?
Yeah, heavy armor innately has the +1 over light and medium armor but they all have high str reqs and low dex caps
But there are classes that want high AC but have a dex focus, either optionally or by necessity
Dex champion (it is a choice of KAS after all), Swashbuckler, dex fighter (also a KAS option), so on
solar tendon
some characters do in fact not have enough abilities to spare to have either strength or dexterity haha
solar tendon
fair
solar tendon
I mean not all armour has a speed penalty
turbid dagger
Yeah but that still leaves you at less than heavy armor AC, minus Being A Monk
frank crystal
And so long as you hit the str no armor has the check penalty
Also armor runes are too good to give up anyway
solar tendon
and taking check penalty on stealth in exchange for not taking it on everything else is sometimes good
frank crystal
By the time you have a +6 for wearing nothing to be better
You’ll be rocking a +2 rune anyway
turbid dagger
Where could I find this btw?
And here you are, comrade https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xTQuoJLGaqK-xRj4ZFXTegQ78MjsxcZhwV6vWqd0EAw/edit?usp=sharing
frank crystal
And you’ll be giving up protection runes and other runes
rapid wagon
oh right
so for metal carapace, i don't have to take off my armor right? it just forms atop it
and inherits any rune effects that would work
from the armor i am currently wearing?
solar tendon
or to put it differently not having +5 ac also Sucks Bad
surreal basin
Oh I meant
solar tendon
but yknow it happens
frank crystal
so for metal carapace, i don't have to take off my armor right? it just forms at...
Yes
frank crystal
Metal carapace inherents all your runes
turbid dagger
And here you are, comrade https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xTQuoJLGaqK-xRj4ZF...
Oh note: I'm almost certainly removing Hot Load from this
I've given it some overnight thoughts and I want to do a metareload that's Less Fucked
Still trying to think of what would be suitably barbarian-y though
turbid dagger
Change that name
Its an in-joke in the ammo reloading community
Bullets with way too much propellant in them are referred too as 'Bubba's Pissin' Hot Loads/Reloads'
heavy fulcrum
thats an exageration but yes, the term is "hot load"
rapid wagon
Yeah that's actually an industry term iirc
turbid dagger
The 'bubba' part is mostly a firearms reddit thing yeah
Its making fun of some imaginary overeager ammo reloader who wants ALL THE FIREPOWER
But yes maybe combining a metareload and power strike is a little Much
Especially since not even regular barbs get power strike by default
My objective is for it to have a strong niche as a 'flat damage ranged dude' while still doing appreciably less damage than, yknow
Melee barbarians
Like, competing with Starlit Span magus or something
Ah fuck it I'm just giving this MF Running Reload
strange nest
I was about to put forth an idea for a feat but then I remembered it already exists (Penetrating Projectile)
turbid dagger
I was about to put forth an idea for a feat but then I remembered it already exi...
Also, nice
I did not actually know of this feat
Very glad that there's some stuff that will actually synergize in-class
I was expecting a lot of reliance on archetypes
Not that a lot of barbarian feats actually modify strikes directly anyway
strange nest
IVE GOT IT
would this work with the quick jump feat?
turbid dagger
would this work with the quick jump feat?
Uhhhh
Perhaps it should but not RAW atm no
strange nest
Any consideration for a way to get around volley akin to point blank shot, or would you rather focus on the combination weapon aspect?
Cause I like the idea of a hunter barbarian with a phalanx piercer as a huge Monster Hunter type bow
turbid dagger
I was thinking that for that kind of thing you can get Archer
Don't want too many bespoke feats or its probably better off as a class archetype
strange nest
Yeah, makes sense
you could have “ignore volley while raging” as part of the instinct ability to avoid the feat clutter, but that might be a bit much
I guess I’m just biased towards barb with a LONGBIGHUGEBOW over a shortbow lol
turbid dagger
I am too lol
But admittedly I am the kind of guy who always finds a way to snag a Hornbow or something anyway
thorny berry
sudden and vivid concept: using the exemplar two-weapon fighting stuff with the exquisite sword cane
the divine gentleman....
turbid dagger
The phantom thief arsene lupin
thorny berry
yes!!
turbid dagger
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
Would you say a fight at level 1, 12, and 18 would be a good like
Benchmark for a playtest
Or whole hog 20 but it might be hard to make fights for level 20 honestly
silver geyser
Is 5 still a common spike in effectiveness?
turbid dagger
I'd usually say 6 cuz thats where you start getting the Spicy Spicy Class Feats
turbid dagger
I have got Ideas for the playtests loose plot
Complete with a reason why the players suddenly change builds and levels between fights
turbid dagger
I have changed Zsslzss's title to 'the lesser whole'
And the capstone boss will be Zsslzss, the Ascendant Divison, two Izfiltars
Embodying chaotic miracle, they sunder themselves in two, with each half becoming greater, not lesser
eager mountain
I have got Ideas for the playtests loose plot
Can’t wait till zsslzss’s rap career takes off
They have madflow
limber comet
Proteans are so cool
I like that they're unusual, but not fucked up enough to be aberrations
It's what bugs me about 5e Slaads
They aren't really
Chaotic
They're just dudes who happen to live in Chaos
Which? Boooooo
Lame
turbid dagger
Its cool yeah
Keketars get smaller when they turn into Izfiltars
Naunets evolve into Azeretsis, which are weaker than Naunets
They all look like snakes and no one knows why
It may just be because you would expect chaos beings to all look different, so they look similar to defy expectation
eager mountain
Proteans are so cool
Snek arms
limber comet
They all look like snakes and no one knows why
It may just be because you would ...
It's probably because invertebrates are usually associated with aberrations
Otherwise they'd probably be like
Mollusks
fast hill
honestly? I'm gonna miss allignments
limber comet
It is an easy way to kind of get a general idea of a creature's values
But edicts and anathema are just much more precise
But the nostalgia is gonna make me go bwomp
fast hill
also all the cool metaphysics that come with it
I also think the big problem with no allignment is you cant say "No evil PCs" for a campaign
like how do you actually quantify that now
warped orbit
Tbh, it's not like that really stopped people before
"Oh I'm totally just chaotic neutral "
unborn rain
I mean, like "Play characters who would actually do the plot"
Which generally just means "Is nice to other people and wants to help them when possible"
warped orbit
Also yeah, just establish expectations
limber comet
I don't think that alignment troubles are as huge of a problem in the pf2e community as they are in 5e
Though I could be wrong
I will occasionally see grognards on official paizo stuff who bitch and moan about minor stuff
fossil temple
Yeah I feel like alignment already was mostly ignored in pf2e unless you are a cleric or champion.
light gyro
The ap I'm playing chucked a weapon with an axiomatic rune on it, which was a surprise. Swapped it out for Hopeful in the end
warped orbit
I am a little sad they didn't keep axiomatic and anarchic, but I guess they were just ultimately too minor overall
fast hill
so I've been hearing that Blood Lords has a lot of enemies that deal negative energy damage
the problem with that of course is that you are pushed towards being immune to negative energy
warped orbit
it's kinda unavoidable by being undead focused
heavy fulcrum
its actually an accepted design decision
my group is about to start and our GM shared this tidbit
quoting her: its extremely funny checking the Paizo Subforum for Blood Lords and people asking "hey this encounter with Shadows who can only deal necrotic damage is literally no threat whatsoever for my all-undead party. Is this an oversight?" and seeing the Paizo Writers being like "nope, working exactly as intended; we felt pretty confidant that while the Undead options would be appealing to some, the majority of groups are going to play 100% normal living people in this Adventure Path
warped orbit
huh
heavy fulcrum
being undead is explicitly the optimal move in Geb
and this is mechanically supported!
warped orbit
I feel like you are pushed very heavily to being undead in Blood Lords
heavy fulcrum
trust me, a lot of groups have weird hangups about...
warped orbit
since positive healing is illegal, so you really want to have negative healing
warped orbit
doesn't Blood Lords also mention you should probably give free archetype for undead archetypes to people?
heavy fulcrum
not exactly
more that you should allow people to choose the Level 2 undead archetypes and have them at level 1
but you still have to spend the feat on it later
(and that players who die should get the option to retrain their most recent class feat into an undead archetype feat if they want to)
but yes, the players guide very heavily suggests playing undead (or dhampir)
fast hill
lets say "not playing the Default Choices"
I think it's that they have very specific vibes
heavy fulcrum
but also paizo assumed that most groups arent going to have more than one or two undead for most of the campaign, because theyll do what they always do and play Human Human Elf Elf Dwarf Half-Orc
fast hill
(a lot of the uncommon+ races)
heavy fulcrum
that too yeah
fossil temple
but also paizo assumed that most groups arent going to have more than one or two...
The boons of playing with furries, you will never see a human -runs
fast hill
see so far I have Ghoran+Fleshwarp+Skeleton
heavy fulcrum
my group is going to be......
heavy fulcrum
dwarf, maybe gnoll, skeleton, dhampir
(possibly a fifth and/or sixth)
im the dorf because i had an excellent idea
Anvil Dwarf (Crafting, Specialty Crafting) + Propaganda Promoter (Acrobatics, Steady Balance) + Maestro Bard (Performance, etc)
fossil temple
Golomas needs more love tho
heavy fulcrum
bard who is absolutely obsessed with the beauty of death and representing it in every form of art he can
guy who sees a murder happening and instead of going to help, watches from a safe distance and tries to remember the details so he can paint it later
eager mountain
quoting her: `its extremely funny checking the Paizo Subforum for Blood Lords an...
i wasnt an undead for that fight im pretty sure
twas a fleshwarp
fossil temple
Fleshwarp aren't undead
But they are heavily mutated
limber comet
Chronoskimmer....
turbid dagger
My abomvaults group is a human, a duskwalker human, and two half elf humans
On that note: There's another abomvaults game I'm going to be playing in and I had to ditch taking zombie archetype for my char because whoops, thats totally a thing in abomvaults too
The uhh
'damn this guy only does negative'
fossil temple
Chronoskimmer....
So that's how we are calling people that arrive late to the table
craggy thunder
On that note: There's another abomvaults game I'm going to be *playing* in and I...
I got to play a skeleton in abomination vaults as my first PF game, it was amazing lmao
turbid dagger
Hmmmmmm
Level 12 fight
Interlocutor, Clockwork Puppeteer, and two Sacristans, Severe for 4 level 12s
The Clockwork Puppeteer turns people into Raw Nerves instead of zombies with its on death reaction
The Puppeteer WILL use this on Sacristans with low health
As I understand it -4 is the bottom line of 'will potentially do something in a fight' so I'm not worried that it will push the margins of Severe TOO much
Just a bunch of Freaks having a good time with their Nerve Flayer
turbid dagger
Onto another encounter, a dragon spellcaster is probably better for a single fight, due to the variety of Stuff they can do right?
They only lose Draconic Frenzy and Momentum, which, while I really love Frenzy, are pretty dry
unborn rain
Dragons are fucking scary
turbid dagger
Yep! This will be a solo PL+2 boss, which is Moderate according to the encounter balancer but I think with all the PL+ spells and aoe saves being thrown around it will still be engaging
More specifically its a level 18 Ancient Spellcasting Magma Dragon against a level 16 party of 4
I can make it Elite to make it Severe but uhhhhhhhhhhh
We'll see
solar tendon
adding a complex trap feels like a good way to spice up a solo encounter without like
just making it a critfest
unborn rain
Breath weapon and spells on something with an actual health pool is already pretty scary
It really depends on spell choices but like dragons are so scary
solar tendon
we fought a robot that was mechanically a dragon and it was very scary
turbid dagger
Maybe some magma bomb hazards yeah
turbid dagger
Problem: there are no hazards or complex traps that are level 18 to 16 that would make sense
Lava seems to be actually too low level
solar tendon
could take something that is mechanically cool and then adjust the numbers to cr
rapid wagon
Traps in volume still work on higher level characters right? They just save more often and have more hp right?
turbid dagger
Well, to an extent I guess
After a point they just reliably crit and nothing happens
rapid wagon
Oof
warped orbit
especially as players get more of the "turn success into crit success" traits for saves
turbid dagger
Okay yeah most of the hazards I've looked at don't really appeal at all
They're all 'big aoe of damage until you turn them off with four skill checks'
I will just leave the dragon by itself at PL+2, if its a little easy who cares, its a playtest
I've got several Severe encounters lined up before and after it
surreal basin
yeah at higher levels you should combine encounters with hazards
which is the approach aps take
frank crystal
Leaf is the primary healing druid order right?
warped orbit
not especially
it does have Goodberry, but it's not necessarily more healing focused
frank crystal
Oh
limber comet
I dont think there is a "healing" order
frank crystal
What kinda feats does leaf get?
solar tendon
familiar stuff
frank crystal
Ahh
rapid wagon
are druids very much about familiars?
frank crystal
I mean, as much as any caster is
They can get one and get some support for it
But unless you’re a witch they’re still just a familiar
They’re not the best still it seems
frank crystal
Oh yah you only get a familiar if you choose leaf order
So it’s one subclass of like
8 I think
Druids have a lot of subclasses
Ok they have 7
warped orbit
i was curious as to how to play druid
mostly they are just the primary prepared caster for Primal
frank crystal
Yah
Also they do get focus spells baseline
Which not all casters do
They don’t have to focus on them if you don’t want to but you’ll always have at least 1
solar tendon
you basically have animal companion/wild shape/leshy familiar
and then four elemental ones
but you're not locked down they're like uh. bard where you can cross-order