Pathfinder

[solar tendon]

but you should still like carry through that philosophy of respect for life

[turbid dagger]

Pistol thaum is neat
But i dunno
Eldritch Archer thaum feels like
Right There
Martial archetype that gives you cha casting and all
I can see it in my minds eye
Some weirdo elf who talks in riddles hanging silver bells (and his esoterica scrolls) from his arrow as he shoots them

[solar tendon]

have you considered

Hand crossbow thaum

crossbows are bows

[turbid dagger]

Not Anymore

Remaster sniped that

[solar tendon]

that's fucked up

but I would argue until eldritch archer gets a remaster otherwise or something that it should affect crossbows

simply by that being the rule at the time

[turbid dagger]

It was cool for clearing up the confusion with crossbow centric rules but yeah

[solar tendon]

mm

the feats even mention bolts explicitly

[turbid dagger]

Like Taw Launcher is hard confirmed to Be A Crossbow for all the fun stuff now
When before the discussions were all like
'crossbow-like weapon??'
'that mfer don't shoot bolts'
'launcher'
'LAUNCHER'

[warped orbit]

Eldritch Archer could also just be ranged weapons in general tbh

[solar tendon]

I think the like

yeah tbh you're not wrong

like sure the magical arrows aspect is big but like

[warped orbit]

the bow limitation is really just flavor, I don't think it's really mechanically a big deal to let you use any weapon

[turbid dagger]

Well you see
For guns you just take Beast Gunner 🙃

[solar tendon]

what is no eldritch archer gonna pick up these newfangled guns and think hey what if I advanced my craft with the changing times

[warped orbit]

I was waiting for someone to bring that up

[turbid dagger]

I aim to please

[solar tendon]

you activated alaen's trap card

[warped orbit]

Beast Gunner should IMO more fully go in on "use beast guns"

[solar tendon]

like uhh

[warped orbit]

and not also have "EA but with guns" on the side

[solar tendon]

eldritch archers in the mwangi

[turbid dagger]

That also reminds me: Should I make Hunter Instinct like 45% more complex by allowing other ranged weapons
I feel like someone in the hypothetical universe where its played ever would want to use a gun with it

[solar tendon]

picking up guns from their neighbours to fight demons

potentially! guns are used to hunt!

[warped orbit]

this btw would also let you do it with thrown weapons, which IMO is also another upside actually

[solar tendon]

this is even a quote from a sidebar for eldritch archer

[warped orbit]

because throwing a magic infused knife at someone is sick actually

[turbid dagger]

I've got a few ideas so far-
No rage damage increase, similar to animal instinct, but you can use str for ranged attacks when raging
Later upgrade gives it a small bump, again like animal instinct, and upgrades the 'str ranged' traits (propulsive adds full str instead of half, kickback does more damage, possibly worded as double damage to let large bore stack with it)
Class feat with it as a prereq that lets you use bows, crossbows, and guns as melee weapons in the club group for switch hitting

And so you can do the hawkeye bow whacking thing

[warped orbit]

Large Bore is basically just upping the bonus to 18 Str propulsive, since it also needs 18 Str

so doubling it should be fine

[surreal basin]

My GM is letting me take a weird spellshot dedication

Which is basically just the gunslinger dedication but I can take spellshot feats and features

[turbid dagger]

Unlike most Barbarians, your rage does not come as a blinding red cloud that sends you, screaming, into battle, but as a honed killing instinct- an icy sharpness that brings the world into stark relief. The beat of your prey’s heart, muscles tensing under the weight of a bow-string, the shift in the wind as you line up the perfect shot - you see it all. In battle, you use both a keen eye and a powerful body to full effect, taking aim with weapons lesser warriors could never hope to wield- massive, dragon-felling longbows and firearms more akin to small cannons.```

[turbid dagger]

Prolonging a creature’s suffering is anathema to your instinct, as is disrespecting a fallen foe’s life, such as by leaving a slain animal’s body to rot instead of using it, or desecrating a humanoid’s body. This does not require you to sacrifice your life or pursue a course of action beyond practicality, such as stopping to butcher an animal’s carcass while attempting to escape a cave-in.```
Having some trouble wording this

Hm, this lets me do yet another version of Crossbow Ace too 😌

[solar thorn]

Alas, the first death in my Abomination Vaults game
The players are 100 gold short of a resurrection rather than just... rolling a new character. Oh well, whatever goes for them.

[warped orbit]

nothing to sell?

[solar thorn]

They do have that, but man they're going through a lot of their resources.

Ok they scrounged up the cash

It was the ||Shanrigol Heaps|| that killed the Thamaturge. She fell to the ground and the players did nothing to get her up in a turn cycle. The issue was she was bleeding, dying, and grappled. I think the cleric just brainfarted tbh

[warped orbit]

ah, yeah that's a really bad spot to be in

[novel merlin]

Any thoughts on how to have a way of the sniper gunslinger work well in fists of the ruby Phoenix? The lack of chances to roll stealth for initiative seems rough.

[turbid dagger]

Very nearly done with the bow barb
Having trouble with subclass feats, I want at least 3
I've got two so far:

(Thinking of juicing elkhorn some, but I am comparing it to Improved Knockdown which is a crit success but melee only)

(Maybe knock the level down instead? 8th?)

Oh Ive got an idea that's kind of sexy
The basic idea of meta reloads is that they make gun use action neutral
That is, you get the same value out of 'shoot, reload' as you do two actions, or a two action activity
So what if
It got a Power Strike metareload
Where it made the next gunshot do an extra die of damage?

Other than that, I can find a less likely to be controversial metareload that still fits

[turbid dagger]

First draft, I may add a crossbow ace/crackshot equivalent but: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xTQuoJLGaqK-xRj4ZFXTegQ78MjsxcZhwV6vWqd0EAw/edit?usp=sharing

Oh uh @solar tendon since you are a str archer enjoyer and got me on this line of thought

[warped orbit]

I mean you should still be able to Avoid Notice, regardless of the fight conditions

[warped orbit]

looks pretty good

Precision resistance on the Rage resistance is interesting and actually has some good applications

[turbid dagger]

I'm proud of that touch
Hot Load is the thing I'm least sure about, it's basically marrying the metareload action econ philosophy with Power Strike

[novel merlin]

Can you avoid notice while just standing in front of someone?

[warped orbit]

it doesn't say you can't technically

[novel merlin]

Hmm fair

[warped orbit]

you might just become immediately Revealed anyway if there really is no cover at all

but it should still let you roll Stealth for initiative at least

[solar tendon]

like it a lot!

[light gyro]

strength of thousands book 4 spoilers ||loving the cameo from the bloodborne aliens in the eclipse shrine. ghosts, ghosts, gh - ALIENS???? - ghosts...||

[eager mountain]

outlaws of alkenstar spoilers: ||I||

oh and ||Hound of Tendalos ||

[solar tendon]

im upset I cant click these

[eager mountain]

I mean literally the first one is just 1 letter

good luck guessing

[solar tendon]

hehe

[eager mountain]

thats some EXTREMELY out of context references to like a single fuckin monster that is like unique

[light gyro]

coincidentally ||i did a little dive on the time dimension and aeons last night. some wacky shit but no clue how to make a campaign out of it. compels me though.||

[limber comet]

Thinking about Tian Xia

https://tenor.com/view/ghost-of-tsushima-ghost-ready-to-fight-gif-22070870

A duel with a graveknight samurai on a misty battlefield, with broken battle standards blowing in the cool breeze

[clever cobalt]

Graveknight?

Oh, undead warriors

[light gyro]

a kind of undead bound to its cursed armour. generally powerful martials. if left unchecked, they'll reform inside their armour after destruction. and things get worse if someone was wearing the armour at the time.

[clever cobalt]

So they're Martial Liches

[light gyro]

not really, they tend to be created on accident from what i've seen

[fossil temple]

Does that happen in game? I never touched game 2

[clever cobalt]

Yeah, it's part of the Crusader's/Reynauld's backstory

[fossil temple]

oh nice, so now they have more story focused things on it?

[clever cobalt]

Yeah, they're called shrines

[robust heron]

DD2 is very good

[clever cobalt]

Basically mini-missions that're backstories for the characters

[fossil temple]

Because ,let me tell you
Darkest Dungeon 1 is the game that made me rage quit so hard because it was making me psychologically ill

[clever cobalt]

(And also crucial to defeat the final boss)

[fossil temple]

That's awesome!

[clever cobalt]

Ye DD2 is good

It's also "brighter" then DD1, despite being post-eldritch-apocalypse

As a big theme of the game is making peace with yourself and your past

[fossil temple]

.
Oh
The Eldritchi-sation spread after DD1?

[clever cobalt]

Yep

[fossil temple]

ooooohnooooooooo

ok, crap
Now I will have to look at it

[clever cobalt]

||You also fight the personification of the Iron Crown (the stress symbol) as the final boss. You fight him by making peace with yourself, giving you a massive damage buff for each character that's made peace||

||Unlike DD1's final boss where you chose who dies, in DD2 you embrace life to win the fight||

[fossil temple]

that's very surprising

Is 2 more unforgiving than 1?

[clever cobalt]

They feel roughly the same

Though it's more roguelike than 1

[fossil temple]

Alright I will give it a shot

I know how 1 ends n all so hey i am ready for the lore of 2
I remember even seeing a video of a guy defeating the last boss of 1 using leaper in turn 1

oh shit wait so that means ||canonically the starting crusader and highwayman of 1 survives DD1 entirely and go to 2?||

[surreal basin]

Kinda

It’s unclear and complicated

[sinful gyro]

It's more of a classic rogue like

So there's some maybe time loop?

But it'sleft vague

[fossil temple]

Ah
So is like how Solaire puts it: "The flow of time itself is convoluted"

[sinful gyro]

Like is time literally resetting or is it just separate stories of people or is it purgatory etc

[surreal basin]

Yeah

It’s maybe purgatory yeah

It’s also ||your own mind bleeding into the universe||

||so they might just be memories of reynauld and dismas, nothing more||

[fossil temple]

me "Oh boy i think i gonna play that game now"
adhd brain: "Ok but don't forget to click on the spoilers, they are clickable"

but makes sense

Eldritch lovecraft things n all

[surreal basin]

Oh fair

[fossil temple]

And kinda like ||How technically Johnny Joester from Jojo kills himself so his memory can defeat a stand user and move on||

Jesus told him to do it so hey
it worked

[fossil temple]

It I blow up a blood vessel because of DD2 is gonna be your fault /j

[robust heron]

that's a mistranslatiiooooon

[fossil temple]

.
Oh shit, what it would be the correct translation ?

[robust heron]

a better translation would be more that time is/has stagnated, and there are some other references in the game(s) about how the flow of time kind of just doesn't work the way we're used to outside of the cycles

it doesn't progress in a linear fashion, and the Dark distorts its flow further

ties to the dark are how you get the kind of nonlinear chronology of the assorted DLCs

[solar tendon]

outlaws? heh, yeah, they're in alkenstar

[robust heron]

Manus and Oolacile are deeply suffused with the Dark, the Daughters of Manus in DS2 are why you can interact with the kingdoms there, the Dreg Heap in ds3 is fundamentally a lack of light to support the continuity of time

because time as a function is a product of Light, and so the less prominent it is the more it "stagnates" - rather than flowing, time simply pools together all in one place, like the muck in a still pond

iirc the "light is time/time is light" thing is referenced implicitly throughout the games, but only explicitly in ds3

but I'm also not aware of all the places the English translation's lost content or context

just some of em

[fossil temple]

T-
That makes sense but makes things more confusing at hte same time

[robust heron]

yeah

but it's the explanation for all the timefuckery

[solar tendon]

that's uh

[fossil temple]

So it kinda makes every playtrought canon but at the same time not

[solar tendon]

sounds pretty convoluted to me???

[robust heron]

yeah, but the meme in DS just

solaire going "time is convoluted" and then giving no other explanation

[fossil temple]

oh god it's "Every Diavolo death is canon" all over again

[solar tendon]

as in like the literal meaning of convoluted and not the like, idiom

[robust heron]

rather than there being a (convoluted) explanation

[fossil temple]

But I admit I kinda love the 'time is a Light thing, so Dark fucks it up when it starts to corrupt a place" thing

Wait so that's also tie in with Dark Souls 2 new ending of "Going beyond Light and Dark"?
Like "Yeah boy time to go full legend and esoteric"

oh god he can become a concept , is Madoka all over again

[light gyro]

maybe its because i licked up every crumb of dark souls but its hard not to see a metatextual reading for ds2's new ending - "what if... we made something other than dark souls"
and then ds3 - "no seriously, we can't keep making dark souls"

[fossil temple]

makes sense.
Because yeah ds3 endings are literally "LET'S US DIE" or "STEP ON HER AND LET IT DIE" "HAVE WAIFU, ARE YOU HAPPY?! I AM NOT"

[clever cobalt]

I remember reading somewhere of fans not caring about the thematic and narrative meanings of Dark Souls, and wanting a Dark Souls 4 anyways

[light gyro]

i mean, i too want to wander around a miserable dead world and kill giant fucked up guys, i just dont want ornstein to be there again

[clever cobalt]

Who's that, Aroden?

[eager mountain]

yeah possibly

[fossil temple]

That's why they made Elden Ring

[clever cobalt]

Yeah but Elden Ring is too woke or something, idk

But I'm dunkposting so I'll stop

[fossil temple]

WHAT
WHO
HOW-

Anyway Pathfinder!

https://www.reddit.com/r/CurseofStrahd/comments/u0rluv/pathfinder_2e_curse_of_strahd_full_conversion/ is this a good conversion for Curse of Strahd to run in Pathfinder 2e?

[carmine egret]

hella

[fossil temple]

https://youtu.be/GgpXeBoQHCI?t=127 next time the alchemist throws a bomb remember to scream Aurora Borealis

[surreal basin]

Man

I gotta figure out what kinda loot to give low level players in a forest fighting animals

[solar thorn]

Equipment or consumables from a previous adventurer caught off guard?

[light gyro]

dead adventurers, nasty fey creatures, big bird that like shiny

[solar thorn]

A lost trinket hidden in a tree hollow, left long ago by a hopefull acolyte

[fossil temple]

food

[light gyro]

you open the wolf's wallet and find fifteen wolf dollars and a folded up crayon drawing of the wolf made by their wolf children

[solar thorn]

Feel like a hero yet?

[frank crystal]

Barbarians don’t get a rage damage bonus for agile weapons right?

[turbid dagger]

They do but it's halved

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[rapid wagon]

so in pf2e, str is always tied to damage, finesse just lets you use dex to the attack roll, but not damage?

[warped orbit]

correct

the only one that gets Dex to damage is Thief Rogue

[solar thorn]

The era of Dex supremacy* is over
Need strength for that damagio, even for composite bows

*not that there ever was one in pathfinder but man is it tough in 5e

[solar tendon]

hmm

[surreal basin]

Yeah pathfinder has the uhhh

Benefit in 1e of

POWER ATTACK

[solar tendon]

yeah power attack is a big deal

[surreal basin]

which benefits from big chonker str weapons

Strength builds were honestly king in 1e

[solar tendon]

dex stacking was definitely a thing though

especially when dex to damage got a lot cheaper over time

[surreal basin]

Because AC kinda only matters til it doesn’t lol

That is true

[fossil temple]

https://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/paizo-shares-expansive-tian-xia-content-in-celebratory-lunar-new-year-stream/ finally
I can become He-man with magical girl archetype

[rapid wagon]

turns out i jumped over the learning process of pf1 to pf2 by going kineticist, where Con is King

its going to be a process to get used to the 3 action economy, but im excited

[surreal basin]

Alright so

[rapid wagon]

already got my basic turn plotted out

Gotta Channel elements + Elemental Blast -> Metal Carapace -> Move/Raise Shield/Make the Elemental Blast a 2 action pick

[surreal basin]

Current treasure: a wolf is mysteriously wearing a broach of shielding, if the players pacify a pair of boards and heal their friend they’ll lead them to a half buried flask of fellowship

Sidenote

Strength of Thousands has a Paladin NPC who uses a longbow and I’m like

God I would kill to see Paizo do gymnastics to make that statblock work lmao

[light gyro]

wait does it?

oh i thought he was a cleric

[turbid dagger]

Huh? Bow paladin is pretty neat
Unless you are talking longbow specifically
Which would take some levels spent on Archer for point blank shot but

[light gyro]

he has a composite longbow

[solar tendon]

I think the main point is the nonbo between volley and ranged reprisal yeah

[turbid dagger]

Yeah that'd be the pain point
Probably wouldn't be a bad play to get Archer dedication and PBS though

[rapid wagon]

i apparently also have picked a class with very little resource management and a focus on con; so my kineticist might be very beginner friendly

which i suppose is good

[barren cipher]

'how are you managing to play longbow champion?'
'well, i own a castle, so...'

[warped orbit]

Kineticist is pretty much entirely resource free yeah

[light gyro]

- average ad&d fighter

[warped orbit]

you have your bag of tricks, and you can just spam them forever

[warped orbit]

one thing I will also say about the armor impulses

they last 10 minutes, and require no upkeep

so potentially ask your GM if you can just be assumed to maintain it when in an area you'd expect to need armor in

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, my GM is letting me sustain hardwood armor as well as Defend during exploration

[rapid wagon]

im honestly not too troubled by recasting it since it just eats up an action

and as far as the metal armor, it shatters when i get crit anyway

[fossil temple]

wood kinectic is broken with the protection tree

don't over-use it or your gm gonna ban it

[rapid wagon]

im a pure metal dude atm

liked the theming better for the campaign

I'm a skeleton metal kineticist

[warped orbit]

I think Timber Sentinel is very strong, though not fully sure it's really broken yet

[turbid dagger]

Personally I've avoided taking it on my wood/water kineticist because it just
Doesn't seem like an interesting thing to do with my turns

[rapid wagon]

i feel like timber sentinel more breaks the out of combat economy

[turbid dagger]

I could be doing Hail Of Splinters or two action weapon blasts instead

[rapid wagon]

as you can effectively instantly flood a market with fresh lumber

instantly being over the course of a few days

[barren cipher]

i mean a medium tree is just a stick

you can plant a forest anywhere but then three druids and six bears come to have a word with you about drainage

[warped orbit]

I mean tbh, any wood kineticist can do that

[turbid dagger]

And following them are three clerics of abadar and their twelve hunting dogs

[surreal basin]

oh i didn't know you could make a ranged champ at all

[solar tendon]

hell. any kineticist is capable of selling their labour

[warped orbit]

you can just create more of your element with Base Kinesis

[barren cipher]

you can, they kind of suck though

[turbid dagger]

Yep! Ranged Reprisal lets you play Tortuga with a bow as Paladin Champ

[warped orbit]

it sort of works with Paladin, but still a bit clunky

[solar tendon]

it's skilled labour sure but in a way it's like

[warped orbit]

but shortbow Paladin mostly works at least

[surreal basin]

incredible

[solar tendon]

if you get a fire kine you don't have to buy coal or firewood!! economy in shambles!!!

[barren cipher]

it's ok with thrown too

d8 spears and clubs are actually quite good overall

free returning at 3rd

[turbid dagger]

Personally I really like it because it means not matter what you can stick with your team and keep them in reaction range while still picking your targets
I'm playing a Paladin of Skode with a Hornbow right now

[warped orbit]

oh hornbow as favored weapon is interesting

[solar tendon]

to be fair if you have an outlier game with a lot of shooting the other two champions would also want a ranged weapon

while paladin would be kinda just rekt

oh wait both

both are in 15 ft

for all of them. rip

[warped orbit]

yep

target and attacker both need to be within 15 feet of you

[solar tendon]

but yeah still

[turbid dagger]

Oh I'm not taking a favored weapon
Skode's is a longbow
I'm just like, using it
With Unconventional Weaponry
You aren't required to use a favored weapon afaik

[solar tendon]

champion is an anti enemy melee class but not particularly strongly a melee class itself

[warped orbit]

ah okay, makes sense

[solar tendon]

Idk if champions even get any benefit to using favored weapon at all

[warped orbit]

I just for a moment thought a god had an advanced weapon as favored, because that would have been cool

[warped orbit]

they get Deadly Simplicity if its simple, but that's it I believe

[turbid dagger]

They get this

[solar tendon]

oh neat

never noticed they get that

[frank crystal]

Wait unarmed could be a deity’s favored weapon?

[warped orbit]

yes

[turbid dagger]

Irori has fist

[warped orbit]

Irori

[frank crystal]

Holy shit

[rapid wagon]

I think the thing about the more material ones, like Metal, Wood, and Earth, don't need the kine to stay present after production. The fire Kine i think needs to stick around to continue selling their labor, Water is just a life saver to any community.

Metal could also theoretically get a massive pile of cheap, fragile tools or weapons made on demand

i haven't looked at what earth creates

[turbid dagger]

I've already talked about how funny it is to play a wood/water kineticist in a desert world setting

That said I'm pretty sure Kineticist has a whole chunk of rules text about 'hey we don't want you breaking the economy with this'
Preventing you from making precious materials or the like
So trying to game around it by like
Making a bunch of bad rakes or something just seems like munchkinry

[warped orbit]

It says the materials you make with Base Kinesis and impulses is generally low quality

[turbid dagger]

Yeah
My point is that it seem like the intent is that paizo would prefer you not hassle your GM into letting you have infinite money
Its just kind of hard to tamp down on all sources of revenue you could get from 'produce most basic forms of matter ad infinitum'

[rapid wagon]

"I thought I'd be an adventurer, but instead I spend all day burning things for the city. Get paid well for it too"

[light gyro]

wonder if something from the plane of fire would show up if it thought you were taking the piss

[rapid wagon]

wood elemental entity just pops out and goes "hey, stop"

[barren cipher]

wood elemental entity just pops out and goes "hey, please continue, nothing could possibly go wrong if you continue, more of this sort of thing please"

[warped orbit]

Haha
That would be kinda funny

You create too much element, and cause some kind of elemental incursion

[solar tendon]

yeah but the results of the work they've done do

like, if you use a fire kine to power your train all day

[rapid wagon]

ah yeah

[solar tendon]

you had a train running all day that day

and the profits of doing so

[rapid wagon]

i guess tis also kinda hard to industrialize kines because their gate opening is kinda not predictable or repeatable

[light gyro]

'oh you want to make money with your kineticism? right, pick a dc of the Earn Income table and roll [arcana or whatever it was they use]'

[solar tendon]

it's kinda like how eragon magic works

in terms of making doing stuff with magic cost the effort it would take to do normally all at once or whatever

or like, that's an option for thinking about it anyway

[warped orbit]

I mean that would most likely be how it works yeah

[solar tendon]

although that frustrates me cause its like

literally the only idea pf2e has really contributed to downtime is that frickin chart

I guess retraining also

[light gyro]

i dont begrudge it really. every time ive heard what people want to do with downtime i always think 'you could adventure for that.'

[solar tendon]

I wouldn't have a problem with that if not for the fact one of the first things pf2e tells you about itself is that it has three modes of play

encounter, exploration and downtime

[barren cipher]

yeah downtime really only seems to do much with ap-specific subsystems

[solar tendon]

like if anything having options for downtime so you can feel satisfied with a glimpse into the party's lives outside of the day to day fighting and then get back to the action in a swift manner is what would support that goal

as opposed to busywork of uh idk I guess describe how you decide to make your income this week

[fossil temple]

oh god is the 'ore wall' all over again?

[light gyro]

ore wall, ore problems

[solar tendon]

like crafting can be fairly interesting but the fact it's effectively one of only two things to do and nothing exists to contrast it is part of why people have a problem with it I think

[barren cipher]

crafting is just earn income with the serial numbers filed off

[solar tendon]

yeah

but like I think what exaggerates that problem is like

earn income is literally the only other thing you can do

[barren cipher]

yeah, i think it's a bit of a double-edged sword really

[solar tendon]

it's like there was a decision made that downtime should be more supported than pf1e but then no work on how they actually wanted to fit it into the system

[barren cipher]

i think there's a lot to be said for having earn income as 'this is the downtime action you take to gain personal power'

[surreal basin]

Yeah there needs to be more downtime stuff imo

Earn Income and Retrain are the only two real ones

Crafting kinda

[solar tendon]

there's an honorable mention to uh. learning spells

[surreal basin]

But it’s kinda just

Earn income

By another name

[solar tendon]

or transferring runes I guess

[surreal basin]

Ah that only takes a day tho

[solar tendon]

mhM

[surreal basin]

You aren’t actually spending proper downtime just transferring runes and like

Tbh I think even the AP writers forget you need a day to transfer runes

[solar tendon]

its like oh cool this semester I can do some cool stuff...for the first two days of my downtime, the rest is money again

[surreal basin]

Cause they will be giving you tunes in the middle of the final dungeon

Like

What am I supposed to do with this dude

[barren cipher]

i think that a lot of other stuff that you might traditionally associate with downtime for a bog-standard adventurer is better dealt with in exploration mode

[solar tendon]

I think partially the problem is they want downtime to be a completely optional system

[surreal basin]

I’m not gonna blacksmith for a day outside of the boss room

[barren cipher]

like gathering information, hobnobbing, etc.

[solar tendon]

which then just has the effect of it can't really be much of a benefit nor something you're assumed to have

[barren cipher]

i mean some of it as well is 'nigel has mummy rot so bill is going to be treating disease on him for a week, what are the rest of us going to do'

[solar tendon]

but I'd rather have actual downtime options and then a like abp style variant where like you just montage things

if you want crafting to be possible just through mornings and want a story paced for zero downtime

[rapid wagon]

does the game support mixed downtimes like someone staying at camp to do things while someone else goes scouting, etc?

[solar tendon]

like you can have downtime options without necessarily having days worth of narrative downtime

uh yeah and exploration

[warped orbit]

well that wouldn't necessarily be downtime, but generally yes

[rapid wagon]

ah ok yeha

[warped orbit]

downtime is generally when you have a couple days of doing stuff

[rapid wagon]

was curious if it was expecting the party to consistently always move as a singular unit through things

[solar tendon]

like in exploration (dungeon searchin basically) one guy can be scouting ahead while another searches the room and another is meditating on their focus spells

it's not super zoomed in on, just like zero to a couple rolls

but it quickly gives a lot of flavour to exploration imo

still would like it to get more content

[rapid wagon]

presumably you could, as a table, choose to zoom in after the rolls are made, to get into particulars, lancer style?

[solar tendon]

yeah potentially!

like someone is searching the room if they find something you could then be doing play by play roleplay reacting to that situation

and because you've all chosen exploration actions for that 10 minutes you even know like roughly what everyone was doing when whoever goes "huh, look at this"

it's a really cool system that is one of my fav things about pf2e

and it makes me sad how little it's been explored (heh) further

[frank crystal]

Man, I kinda wanna make a faun/satyr blade dancer barbarian kinda based off Zelda from Fantasy High

I guess Elf Beastkin is a pretty good way to make a satyr too

[unborn rain]

I love faun/satyrs, it's a shame there isnt that great of a folk for them yet

[frank crystal]

Yah, I do hope we get an official ancestry for them eventually

[rapid wagon]

i still want to make vanara monk built around the drunken stance

and build in the laughing theft stuff

[frank crystal]

Also, does the hybrid form from Beastkin stop you from casting spells/shape changing again without doing the counteract check?

[barren cipher]

it's not a battle form so it wouldn't stop you from casting spells at all

[frank crystal]

Ah cool

I can stay a goat person just fine then

[barren cipher]

uh for polymorph let me see if there's a loophole for helpful effects

there isn't an explicit one i think, we're in 'voluntarily failing saving throws' territory

[frank crystal]

Is that RAW?

[barren cipher]

there's no rules support for it no

[frank crystal]

Fuck

I mean it shouldnt matter to much for this character

They are a barbarian anyway

[barren cipher]

well if you're a goat you're in good shape

your natural shape is your hybrid form

[frank crystal]

Wait why?

[barren cipher]

says so

You gain the Change Shape ability. A beastkin's hybrid form is their natural shape.

[frank crystal]

Ah

Well then

I’m completely fine

[turbid dagger]

You are half goat half person
To become all person or all goat you are changing your nature

[frank crystal]

I don’t need to become a full goat

I just want the goat legs

[barren cipher]

i think animal barb stuff is mostly morph rather than polymorph anyway

[frank crystal]

IC IC

[barren cipher]

the actual animal shape stuff aside

morph stacks fine with polymorph

[frank crystal]

Ok great

[thorny berry]

I played one once, though I just reflavored half-elf rather than specifically getting mechanical hooves

though on that front old tiefling at least also has them as an explicit option

[frank crystal]

Wait was hooves removed when Nephilim replaced them?

[barren cipher]

nimble hooves is still there i think

yeah it's still there

[solar storm]

yea-

[barren cipher]

i don't think you need the feat to have them either

[thorny berry]

oh yeah I was just saying that's the one I'm certain of since I wasn't sure about nephilim offhand

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[frank crystal]

Is there a classic like, weapon poison to paralyze someone?

Just something to coat a knife in to poison them

[clever cobalt]

There's probably some poison that can do that, nothing comes to mind though

[warped orbit]

Look through alchemical poisons I guess

[barren cipher]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1999

[rapid wagon]

wait does that mean an alchemist could start with the formula for this

and just make it

[barren cipher]

it's 8th level so

[rapid wagon]

ahhh ok

whew

still, might be a good thing to acquire to make easily

[barren cipher]

and incap

[rapid wagon]

throwing out fort save or paralyzes still seems good

oh wait i don't understand why incap is bad

[barren cipher]

because if you're level 9 then you make all your saves with one degree of success higher

[rapid wagon]

im still lost a bit sorry, does that mean no one will get paralyzed?

[barren cipher]

there's also lethargy poison https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=120 and stupor poison https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2016

basically if you are level 9 or above it will almost certainly do nothing

[rapid wagon]

ah dang

seemed like there was a lot of possible stacking negatives so its seemed cool

[barren cipher]

it's to stop you absolutely wrecking the level 17 boss with a bad roll on a low-level paralysis spell

[rapid wagon]

yeah no that makes total sense

im guessing there ARE poisons and potions that work at higher levels or have some kind of effects

[turbid dagger]

Potions yeah
Poisons uhhhh
There are higher level poisons that you can use to keep up the scaling but in general poison is fairly maligned in this system, from what ive seen

Lots of dudes are flat immune to it and those who aren't can often just shrug it off

[barren cipher]

yeah poison is one of those unfortunate things that tends to be a player-facing hazard rather than a player resource

[rapid wagon]

drats, i guess thats the domain then of narrative circumstance and gm fiat often times?

as far as poisons that'll work on villains

macguffin poisons rather than specific kinds you can make

[barren cipher]

yeah, i mean the poison system in general doesn't lend itself to stuff like intrigue for the most part

[rapid wagon]

better off going "here's the recipe it will put so and so to sleep all night" rather than crafting something off the list and so on, perhaps

or "Coat your blade with this plot device, it will make the normally invulnerable bad guy vulnerable to your weaponry for the fight"

[silver geyser]

As ever, there are campaigns where poison is viable and the like, but by and large, a lot of things are immune.

[warped orbit]

poisons are just pretty hard to make stick

[turbid dagger]

I kind of wish there was more like
Just
Persistent Poison Damage
Instead of tying it all to an affliction

[echo briar]

GMs, would you rule that you need to be able to read a scroll to use it?

I need to settle a debate

[solar tendon]

uh

read what

[heavy fulcrum]

define "read"

[solar tendon]

yknow

[echo briar]

Can you use them while blind

[heavy fulcrum]

yes

[solar tendon]

ohhh

[heavy fulcrum]

using a scroll is exactly the same as the normal Cast A Spell action for the relevant spell

[solar tendon]

I think magical writing is just funky

[heavy fulcrum]

pf2 actually barely defines what a "scroll" even is

besides "its a spell in item form"

[solar tendon]

I think to an extent this is not something the rules seek to like

address

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah

its very intentional

[solar tendon]

and it's more of a spell setting lore question

[heavy fulcrum]

scrolls are

1. consumable
2. magic items
3. that allow you to cast specific spells
4. end of list

[solar tendon]

mhm

[heavy fulcrum]

literally anything else about them is beyond the scope of the text

[solar tendon]

as far as golarion is concerned I think the best clue is that the Reading Ring doesn't really mention like spellbooks etc

but actually reading written language

so I think the assumption is that spellbooks and scrolls, the magical writing used in that is beyond simply the medium of sight alone

(we do actually know scrolls are magical writing thanks to Learn A Spell)

[barren cipher]

you do not, apparently:

Casting a Spell from a scroll requires holding the scroll in one hand and activating it with a Cast a Spell activity using the normal number of actions for that spell.

even if it’s written then you’re in good shape RAW

[rapid wagon]

#don't gotta know magic to do magic

[heavy fulcrum]

you do need to know magic

its the next sentence

To Cast a Spell from a scroll, the spell must appear on your spell list.

you just dont need to be able to read

[limber comet]

Thinking about Wanshou

All the coolest areas in Tian Xia are the spooky ones

Chu Ye, Shenmen, Wanshou

[light gyro]

okay i figured out what a campaign about aeons and the time dimension would be about and all it took was listening to persona 3 ops on repeat for an hour

[eager mountain]

lol

[rapid wagon]

Looks like our current final party for blood lords is gonna be
Tyrant champion
Metal kineticist
Undead Sorcerer
Bard
Fighter
Rogue

[limber comet]

Undead bloodline or are they just straight up undead

[fossil temple]

I am always surprised because I keep forgetting that, yes, you can make a killing Wheelchair user

[light gyro]

does this stack with froggy chair frog chair? can you pilot a combine harvester that can pounce?

[fossil temple]

oh my god

[fossil temple]

YES
Because Frog chair is a traveler's chair, and the traveler's chair IS a wheelchair

[solar tendon]

printed heroforge minis for Outlaws of Alkenstar : )

[fossil temple]

looks awesome :3c

[solar tendon]

thank you! I'm very happy with them

[fossil temple]

Has anyone tried a Magus Starlit Span with the Barricade Buster?

[strange nest]

Man i gotta play 2e again

[fossil temple]

Same

Boyfriend has bipolar disorder and -
He's out of meds
So we are currently in a pause
And I want to play so bad, so many chars to try

[strange nest]

I like to read through aon and just ponder random builds or scenarios

like, has anyone ever tried houseruling stuff for martial multi-target moves like swipe to have interaction with troops

[warped orbit]

Probably works pretty decent
You're at least not gonna run out of bullets mid fight on a Magus probably

[strange nest]

Since I imagine it would feel a bit crummy to take a feat focused on cleaving multiple dudes at once and not being able to use it on an npc representing like 20 dudes in a square formation

[solar tendon]

uhh

I think troops can be targetted more than once by multi-target abilities anyway

like if you were using scorching ray

since troop defences specifically mentions attacks that have multiple target can blow through thresholds

so like swipe hits two Foes and a troop is like... a collection of Foes

so swipe would basically be a double damage attack for two actions, but doubling weakness and resistances

[strange nest]

RaW troops are a single character, they just have area and splash weakness, and special interaction with non-damaging effects based on area/number of targets

[solar tendon]

uh I guess

[strange nest]

I’m running numbers to compare swipe and aoe spells

[solar tendon]

I think actually there's

a lack of clarity on multi target effects against troops in general

both metastrikes and spells

[rapid wagon]

I fell asleep, but undead bloodline, unsure what race

[solar tendon]

cause it frankly doesn't make...much sense

[strange nest]

An unfortunate side effect of keeping them simple

[solar tendon]

like there's no reason three scorching rays targetting three troops can blow through thresholds on all of them

[warped orbit]

A troop is a single creature

They just can't be affected by most things that can only affect single creatures

[solar tendon]

so it feels like there's a missing clause for "multi target abilities can target just the troop to count as area damage" essentially

They're affected by Strikes

they can't be affected by single target non damaging effects

[warped orbit]

Yes that's what I meant

[strange nest]

so you can’t grapple or shove a troop unless you’re covering all/most of em

[warped orbit]

Obviously you can still Strike them

[strange nest]

I should test damage of swipe targeting a city guard squad in various ways compared to fireball

[solar tendon]

no but that's my point swipe is analagous to scorching ray and not fireball

[strange nest]

damage twice, damage twice with weakness twice, damage twice with weakness once, and damage once with weakness

oh right

[solar tendon]

but then it's like

idk it's confusing

hurting my brain to think abt

my new opinion is that single target damage effects are actually like. overpowered against troops

and that's why there isn't a good slot to put multi-target effects between strikes and area damage

cause the only weakness strikes have is like. you can "only" kill 4 guys with one blow

I guess it depends on how strong the troop is relative to the party to be fair

if the gap is big enough that that's a big limiter on single target damage, multi target effects like swipe are already handled by being able to blow through thresholds

so I feel like that's the dynamic that troops are balanced around, and raw does work completely fine

[strange nest]

after crunching some numbers, a level 5 fighter with a +1 striking greatsword has an average damage with swipe on par with the electric arc cantrip on a wizard of the same level (this is with swipe dealing damage twice with no area weakness, and arc dealing damage once with area weakness)

scorching ray actually underperforms cast at level 2 and 3, and fireball has the highest average out of everthing mentioned so far

[solar tendon]

scorching ray, electric arc, and swipe are all multi-target effects which should be resolved the same

however you decide to do that

[strange nest]

electric arc and fireball have higher averages by virtue of being saves

[solar tendon]

I mean in terms of how you apply the damage

[strange nest]

meaning half damage on a miss

[solar tendon]

wrt/ number of times and whether it triggers area damage

[strange nest]

oh yeah if you apply area weakness and double damage to swipe it blows everything out of the water lol

[solar tendon]

basically my opinion is all three should have neither

you just need to only use troops in situations where the tresholds for single target damage will come up

[strange nest]

I mean yeah thats kinda the intended balance

[solar tendon]

in which case; you don't need to homebrew anything

that's just how swipe works raw

it's a multitarget effect and therefore is not affected by thresholds

[strange nest]

Yeah, it’s just that considering the damage you need to do for the thresholds to come up, it seems like you’d rarely have a reason to use swipe against a troop as opposed to something like power attack if there isn’t another enemy to also target

[solar tendon]

mhm

the tresholds are trying to do two things at once - resist single target damage, and lower the size of the troop

[warped orbit]

or just Striking twice

[solar tendon]

but then you hit map

[warped orbit]

yeah
but your overall damage potential is still much higher

[solar tendon]

that depends on the thresholds

like

if the troop is near the first threshold swipe could potentially blow through both of them

while two strikes can only reduce it to the last threshold exactly

[strange nest]

Unless the first strike passes the first threshhold

is the thing

[solar tendon]

no

in this case the first strike is bringing it to the first threshold exactly

more threshold for troops would help - paizo would just have to accept that fighter striking can't solve every problem lol

[warped orbit]

it only matters if a single Strike would reduce them by more than one threshold at once

[solar tendon]

yes

which is the only way for multi target effects to have a niche against troops

and therefore should be the case

thresholds are damage gates

[warped orbit]

yeah but the chance that a single attack that ignores thresholds can actually do more overall than two individual attacks isn't that high

unless the Troop is really weak compared to you

[solar tendon]

yes; thresholds are a bad way of implementing single target resistance as they currently stand

[strange nest]

that or like, have single target damage abruptly stop after reaching a single threshhold? For instance, if a troop had 60 Hit Points, with thresholds at 40 and 20, a Strike for 50 damage would leave the troop at 40 hp

idk

[solar tendon]

...

that's how

troops work

[warped orbit]

no, it would leave them at 21

that's in fact exactly the example given on Troop Defense

[solar tendon]

wtf

that's so dumb

sorry guys

[strange nest]

no worries

[solar tendon]

I just made the rule make sense in my head when I read it

[warped orbit]

you can go over the threshold with a Strike, it just can't go over more than one threshold

[solar tendon]

instead of this nonsense

they only even have two thresholds in the first place!!!

this makes me mad!!!

[warped orbit]

well you could give a Troop more theoretically

they don't have a fixed number of thresholds

[solar tendon]

true but by example

[warped orbit]

but yes Troop Defense is a bit janky

[solar tendon]

I mean tbqh thresholds should be equal to the health of one guy

[warped orbit]

because ultimately single target damage still just wins out

[solar tendon]

and if that means only having single target damage fucks you over so be it

these things take up 16 squares

[fierce gulch]

So pathfinder cleric domain for a monk thinking of taking a cleric archetype

Campaign hunting it will fight mostly ghostly undead

Death, Pain, or Sorrow domain?

[sinful gyro]

Probably Death?

Too many mindless undead for the other two

Althought ghostly so they normally have minds

Still though, Eradicate Undeath is nutty

Fort save isn't ideal but against ghosts you have better odds than other undead I think?

[warped orbit]

ghosts tend to have pretty crappy Fort generally

[sinful gyro]

Also worth thinking about how often you use your reaction

[warped orbit]

but are also just not affected by a lot of Fort effects

[sinful gyro]

Well they'd be effected by this one

[fierce gulch]

Also already have duskwalkers heritage and ghost hunter feat

So was concerned that may be too many eggs in one basket because surely we’ll fight more than just ghostly undead

[light gyro]

refreshingly simple spell that

'fuck everything (undead) in that direction'

[fierce gulch]

I guess getting extra temp health on killing undead is really good

Which does push me towards death domain

[warped orbit]

Pain and Death both have some pretty decent focus spells

Death's Call has the benefit of being a reaction, which is good especially if you don't use your reaction much otherwise

but yeah if the campaign is gonna be pretty undead centered, Death will definitely come in handy

[fierce gulch]

This is my first pathfinder/dnd game so I’m pretty unsure as to how much reaction I’ll be using

Do monks use a lot of reactions

[barren cipher]

they have some ok reactions available to them

[warped orbit]

if you don't pick up Stand Still, not necessarily

[barren cipher]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=447

[warped orbit]

they do have a few as feats, but you don't necessarily need to take those

[fierce gulch]

I guess champions are the reaction class

[barren cipher]

it's a good option but it's not mandatory and you won't be using it every turn anyway

[fossil temple]

What is the Tldr of Magus' Arcana Cascate and Spellstrike?

[fierce gulch]

I guess death domain it is then

[fossil temple]

Pharasma is a cool lady, yes :3

[barren cipher]

arcane cascade is usually like... a bit of a bonus, you wanna be in it but if it's not practical to get in it it's usually OK

[warped orbit]

Arcane Cascade is just a stance that adds a little bit of elemental damage to your attacks, plus potential other benefits from certain Hybrid Study feats

[fierce gulch]

Death domain monk of Sarenrae

Why does a monk of Sarenrae have death domain?

[warped orbit]

you can only enter it if you cast a spell just before

[fierce gulch]

No comment

Stop asking questions

[warped orbit]

it's not too incongruous tbh
Death deals with destroying undead a lot too, and that's also a big thing for Sarenrae IIRC

[barren cipher]

spellstrike is your bread and butter and your game plan is to spellstrike, usually with just a cantrip, at 0 map as often as possible - most of the time this is every other round, if you're in starlit span you can usually do it every round

[fierce gulch]

Maybe I ought to take Pain instead then

[warped orbit]

Starlit has the easiest time just spamming Spellstrike yeah

[thorny berry]

may I introduce you to our lord and savior Athletic Rush

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=402

actually hm

oh the monk speed bonus is status that's lame

[barren cipher]

recharging spellstrike costs either an action or the use of a conflux focus spell - the conflux stuff tends to attract attack penalties though, force fang being a notable outlier

[fierce gulch]

I don’t think the god I worship can grant me might anyways

[warped orbit]

I think the only untyped speed bonuses are the ancestry feats

and those also don't stack

[fierce gulch]

Monks are speed

[fossil temple]

thank

[barren cipher]

perfection domain is quite good

[fierce gulch]

I plan on just hitting people with a temple sword while shouting murim moves or smth

[fossil temple]

what cantrip you usally use for spellstrike?

[fierce gulch]

What’s perfection domain grant

[warped orbit]

Gouging Claw is the usual one

big damage, extra bleed

[barren cipher]

whatever you've got yeah

it's good to have a variety of cantrips

[warped orbit]

though packing Ignition can be good to exploit fire weakness

[barren cipher]

hitting elemental weaknesses is good

[fierce gulch]

Also does divine or occult for ki spell matter

[barren cipher]

focus spells that let you take saving throws again

[warped orbit]

not that much
especially since separate casting proficiencies don't really exist anymore

[fierce gulch]

Don’t monks already have one of the best saving throws

[barren cipher]

yeah

[fierce gulch]

I guess it doesn’t hurt to make them even more invulnerable

[thorny berry]

'the' best, isn't it?

[barren cipher]

you should always double down on your strengths if you can

[warped orbit]

Monks have pretty much the best save progression

[thorny berry]

and then it's mountain stance monk specifically that can eventually match champion AC at 14

[warped orbit]

start Expert in all saves, and they get two master profs by 11
and you get to choose which ones

[fierce gulch]

Role playing wise the char is a monk of Sarenrae ||from five hundred years ago who saved the big bad evil dude (because she believed that everyone is deserving of a chance at redemption) when he was wounded and got her entire temple massacred as thanks. Her faith shattered at the last moment of her life so the psychopomps decided to defer judgment of her fate until she receives a second chance at life as a duskwalker. She gets her divine powers from the psychopomp ushers who has given her a task to put to rest the restless dead rather than Sarenrae.

She’s more than a bit bitter about the whole thing,|| which is why I thought pain and sorrow domain might be appropriate

[fossil temple]

Thank you kind sir

[barren cipher]

oracle and maybe witch or something might fit too

oracle is great for people inflicted with power

[warped orbit]

Oracle dedication is kinda rough

[fierce gulch]

There’s a witch dedication?

Oh the witch archetype

Yeah the witch is what I gravitated to at first but the party needs a frontliner

Is there a synergy reason for taking on a witch archetype as monk?

We are using free archetype rules

[barren cipher]

um, not that i can think of off the top of my head really

it just gets you out of the tyranny of deity-specific domains, anathema and such

[fierce gulch]

I see

[thorny berry]

one of many routes towards sipping True Strike juice

[turbid dagger]

Ghostly undead are not the majority of what you'll be fighting, its more significant minority
You will be fighting some kind of undead somewhere on almost every level though
If you get anti-undead focus spells I can't imagine you'll go many sessions without casting one
(For context for everyone else here, LW is a player in my upcoming Abomination Vaults game)

[fierce gulch]

Accursed undead

[turbid dagger]

As for this: Familiars are pretty generically useful for scouting purposes, and uhhhh
Hexes might actually be a pretty interesting angle to push on Monk
Witch's primary gimmick is that they get one action cantrips called hexes
And you can get them even when archetyping by picking certain feats
And Monks often have a spare action to throw around

So like
Lesson Of Protection would let you hand out status to AC to your pals (or yourself), and also snags you Mage Armor to cast on yourself for more AC

[fierce gulch]

Huh

[turbid dagger]

The hardest part would likely be getting 14 intelligence on a str monk
But I also plan on doing gradual ability boost

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1300

[frank crystal]

Do champions start with reactive strike?

[barren cipher]

no

available as a 6th level feat

[frank crystal]

That feels wrong

Fundamentally that feels wrong

[barren cipher]

champ reaction is better honestly

[turbid dagger]

I mean, your reaction is covered for yeah

[barren cipher]

they are the best reactions in the game more or less

[turbid dagger]

For movement control tank martial thats fighter

[frank crystal]

I mean yah but like

Champion is the reaction class

[turbid dagger]

I know people say that a lot but its not like Paizo markets it as such

[frank crystal]

I guess

[turbid dagger]

Its a class about keeping your pals alive
With reactions

[worthy stump]

Reactive Strike for free at level 1 is Fighter’s niche anyways

[turbid dagger]

Ye

[light gyro]

antipaladin reaction looks kinda ass

[barren cipher]

it ain't great

[frank crystal]

It’s not the best

[worthy stump]

And can always go Paladin if you wanna get some free damage on top of your reaction

[barren cipher]

unless you're an antipaladin in which case it probably seems excellent

[turbid dagger]

The evil causes are funky
Tyrant is kind of neat but uhhh

[frank crystal]

Tyrant reaction is nice

But like, otherwise kinda eh

[turbid dagger]

Tyrant is solidly average effect wise but has very cool flavor

Its something I wanna slap on an enemy NPC at some point

[worthy stump]

Yeah, the evil champion causes are kinda questionable, in terms of effectiveness. A shame, especially since most campaigns aren’t suitable for them so they don’t get played much

I ran a Tyrant NPC in a fight once, it was pretty cool

[turbid dagger]

Evil options being kind of scuffed because they're like 3% of adventures seems like a constant, hobby wide thing honestly

[barren cipher]

if i wanted to be a heavy armour melee class, a devotee of an evil god and have the potential of a long lifespan, i'd pick fighter

[worthy stump]

Yeahhh

[turbid dagger]

Demoralize fighter is deffo evil coded
(I say, hiding the demoralize fighter I'm playing in kingmaker)

[light gyro]

bard archetype to play your own villanous theme music (dirge of doom)

[turbid dagger]

Dirge Of Doom Inspiring Marshal Fighter is something I have heavily considered yes
Constant effective +4 to hit

Then hit those mfers with snagging strike

[thorny berry]

dirge spamming on a monk seems like it'd be interesting since they've got the action compression of flurry 🤔

could also leverage that dragon stance demoralize maneuver

hm

[frank crystal]

Simply make every enemy piss themselves during each fight

It’s not that hard

[turbid dagger]

I do love remoreseless lash
I probably should get shatter defenses in at some point
But my later feats are taken by dueling and maneuveur stuff

Its funny though
We're doing gradual ability boost and free archetype so my hob fighter has 18 cha, expert intimidation off Marshal, and Intimidating Prowess at level 2
So he's got a +11 to Spooks

[frank crystal]

Jesus lol

Dude should just go into acting

Could make bank doing that

[turbid dagger]

He's likely going to be the general of the country once we actually get to that point
He has Presence

[light gyro]

All hobgoblins have conqueror's haki it's in the rules

[turbid dagger]

During our first session some noble got on our Ranger (who is an illegitimate sibling of them)
The exchange basically went
Noble: 'so your calling yourself a noble now huh, X'
Hob: 'Lady X.'
Noble: 'LADY X???'
Hob: 'Yes, Lady X.'
Noble:
Hob:
Noble: 'O-oh'
Noble: 'Okay'

Linzi also has a crush on him
Because by pure accident he wound up killing like 3 separate giants during the intro sequence
All of them were heavily wounded but 'killed 3 giants' isn't a factoid thats going to disappear from a bard's brain easily
He's a little frustrated about it because he doesn't consider it all that noteworthy

[clever cobalt]

Is tomorrow god death day?

[frank crystal]

What’s the feature to represent your character being raised in a culture that’s not their normal ancestry?

[turbid dagger]

Adopted Ancestry
Annoyingly a general feat and thus something you have to wait to get (unless you are..... human )

[frank crystal]

Ahh ok

[turbid dagger]

There's custom mixed ancestry tips in player core 1 tho, so you might be able to do that for 'dwarf raised by orcs' instead of just 'half orc dwarf'
GM approval pending and all that

[frank crystal]

ah ok

[turbid dagger]

This reminds me: Half dwarfs should be more of a thing in fiction
I want someone as tall as a human and as DENSE as a dwarf

[solar thorn]

350 lbs average and capable of wrestling bears

[thorny berry]

half dwarf half elf that looks mostly like a human but just kinda uncannily off

[frank crystal]

He gets a title called “The Tall” because he was still raised with dwarves

[turbid dagger]

His dad's family calls him the Tall and his mom's call him the Wide

[carmine egret]

like Paulie Walnuts's actor

[frank crystal]

So like

I’m a little confused how Dive and Breach works

It mentions it requires an attack and basic reflex save

But I don’t know what parts of the spell require what

[barren cipher]

probably shouldn’t have the attack trait

there’s no reason for it so i assume it’s just an error

[frank crystal]

oh ok '

so it is just a basic reflex save then

[heavy fulcrum]

it has the attack trait so any attacks after it in the same turn suffer a multi-attack penalty, thats it

[frank crystal]

theres an archetype for being cursed right?

[heavy fulcrum]

hmmm, this one? https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=190

[frank crystal]

thats it

[turbid dagger]

Would you say
That a hybrid study that gives you an animal companion would be significant enough a change to be a Class Archetype

Also: Do Studious Spells ever leave the Arcane school like other 'granted by subclass' spells do

[turbid dagger]

(My thought with this is that the Class Archetype feats can be the animal companion scaling feats and Companion's Cry and such, so I'm not modifying the vanilla magus featlist any)

[ocean cobalt]

all the current studious spells are on the arcane list but if you have something in mind i say go for it. if you're gonna make it a class archetype (probably the correct decision?) you can even swap what list it uses entirely and/or make it spontaneous or bookless druid style

full disclosure i have been trying to homebrew this exact thing in my mind for a while now lol so that's where i'm coming from. my other think is that the best conflux spell would command minion++ so you still get to recharge strike, start cascade etc

[turbid dagger]

Yeah I was thinking the conflux would be Strike+Command
And making it a Primal caster might be neat

[barren cipher]

i think that would turn out decent but like

bm/cav dedication and force fang is also pretty decent especially once you have independent

and you would have the basic benefits of another study

so i think there’s room to flex a bit

[turbid dagger]

Yeah! The main thing here is that this one could spellstrike through its companion, and have some arcane cascade stuff also

[barren cipher]

i doubt companion spellstrike would be worth it honestly

[turbid dagger]

Probably not anything crazy because cascade isn't crazy but like
'when you are flanking with your companion (but not other allies), both you and your companion's attacks gain the Backstabber trait' or something

[barren cipher]

you’d have to give some fat bonuses to make up for the lower base accuracy and i think that might draw suspicion

[turbid dagger]

You mean 'I'd get yelled at by people on the PF2e discord'
Real talk I do imagine the primary advantage would be flanking with your dog to set it up, which obv beastmaster inexorable could do just as well
Which does incline me towards the 'make it primal' angle
For runic body and envenom companion and so on to sweeten the deal

[ocean cobalt]

beastmaster dedication is probably serviceable if you don't feel like homebrewing but if you do i think another thing worth mentioning is that hybrid studies also have a 4th+10th level exclusive feat

uh as i say that i guess the 4th level is pretty locked in

but the 10th level is another opportunity to get some subclass identity in

[turbid dagger]

Speaking of homebrew: thinking about running playtests of that ranged barb soon
......how would I get it into foundry

[fossil temple]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4382 Technically this literally let's you be immortal

[clever cobalt]

There's a monk feature that makes you ageless

Level 14

[barren cipher]

yeah that one is not as well-written as it ought to be

that needs some traits or much deeper explanation

[clever cobalt]

Its neat regardless

[fossil temple]

Mr.Kami be like

[barren cipher]

(statue, that is)

[clever cobalt]

Ah

[fossil temple]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=210 yeah, is part of this archetype

[fossil temple]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4384 lv 12 :3

You literally become GOLEM

[clever cobalt]

Yeah but that's a specific archetype

[barren cipher]

i think it would be neat if statue at least put you on pause while you're waiting

[clever cobalt]

Any monk can get immortality at level 14

[fossil temple]

Yeah some archetypes are very specific, specially the undead slaying ones

I am seeing which archetype to grab for my Inexorable Iron Magus and I saw that one
is neat

Like
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4371
Stone brawler

Literally this guy + stone
With a stance for custom Brawling weapon

[turbid dagger]

Stone Brawler is really cool yeah
I appreciate that it has a dueling parry/raise shield equivalent

[fierce gulch]

How much of a heresy would it be to take perfect body as a duskwalker

[barren cipher]

i think it's fine right

[echo briar]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sii9?The-Godsrain-Prophecies-Part-Three#discuss

[sinful gyro]

No big surprise

Absolutely no benefit in killing them

[light gyro]

https://tenor.com/view/tekken-tekken-8-fight-fighting-king-gif-1519221722170469759

THATS MY BOYYYYY

[unborn rain]

holy shit

[turbid dagger]

There's a Psychopomp Usher dedicated to preparing for the sudden influx of immortal souls that will occur at the end of the universe so you are good
Tho also the game we'll be playing will end before level 14, if you mean Timeless Body?

[fierce gulch]

Yeah lmao

[unborn rain]

Pharasma doesnt care about what you do in life as long as you don't do undeath stuff

Perfect body doesnt put anymore negative energy in the world and you will eventually die

[solar tendon]

don't fully understand this godsrain tbh

[turbid dagger]

Yeah not surprised Cayden made it
Like he's a Good Boy but I don't think a lot of people actually like
CARE care about him

He's not a 'this changes everything' kind of god to have die

[solar tendon]

did he get into the starstone by convincing everyone he already had??

[warped orbit]

Cayden is both too iconic and not really high impact enough to die IMO

[solar tendon]

like it's not trying to keep out gods

[unborn rain]

Cayden did a bit about the Starstone so hard he became a god (maybe also a special alcohol?), the starstone fills his dreams with the fact he's a fake

So he steps down, everyone hates him and he dies Goldless in a gutter

[solar tendon]

yeah but he got the drink from the starstone cathedral

implying he must have gotten there somehow

[turbid dagger]

I guess the idea is that he didn't quite pass the starstone test, he only stole some of its power?
And then the little spark of divinity he had in his flask got people to hype him up as a god??
But uhhhh
Yeah

[solar tendon]

starstone is just like "you may be only one of three/four people to survive even attempting this but uhhh you did it wrong so I'mma give you imposter syndrome"

[unborn rain]

it is a little confusing but Assumedly it is right and he isnt a "proper" god

Also the little thing at the end says that the psychopomps not heard of belief turning people into a god but doesnt that happen to some of the many many gods in Jalmeray?

[solar tendon]

ofc I guess the idea could be that just as he lied himself to divinity he also doubted himself to mortality

[turbid dagger]

Like I think the basic idea is that he did attempt the test, but failed
But since he was blackout drunk, he did not realize this fact
And no one else did either
I'm not sure where the weird alcohol came from

[solar tendon]

oh some people do survive failure

fair

idk it just seems like if it was the starstone giving him doubts the starstone is an asshole

[turbid dagger]

I do also think its a little lame than all his Noted CG Followers dumped his ass when its revealed he
gasp
Became a god in a weird way
(Ignore all the heroic stuff he did before or since)
But I guess that ties into the whole 'the person writing these prophecies in universe is kind of an idiot' theme

[clever cobalt]

Interesting that it's an in-universe document though

I wonder who the author is

[unborn rain]

The starstone might just be an asshole, it was sent by mega shit heads

[solar tendon]

sjust like

so arbritrary

[clever cobalt]

And by no means are the gods that ascended via it inherently good guys

[echo briar]

It also could just be lies. Perhaps it was murder

[clever cobalt]

(Aroden and Nogorober are both assholes)

[solar tendon]

but that's not necesarily surprising yeah

[echo briar]

Make a divinity give it up willingly. The perfect crime

[clever cobalt]

Regardless, it's a small lore dump that's not really relevant to the Canon, I'm not too disappointed with it

[unborn rain]

I think even CG followers have limits like Lying about ever having achieved godhood, is a big enough lie that he might be lying about other things

then as that doubt increases, his miracles decrease so it looks like he's worse than he is

self feeding loop of negativity towards him

[solar tendon]

yeah

I do kinda like that as a downfall

[unborn rain]

holy shit what if you get a large enough Hatedom and that turns you into a god

[clever cobalt]

I feel like we have any example of this but nothing comes to mind

[echo briar]

Turns out thats Rovagug. If people just stopped caring, he wouldn't be a threat.

But the fear of him makes him something to be afraid off

[clever cobalt]

So he's a tulpa?

[light gyro]

he's pharasma's sleep paralysis demon

[thorny berry]

more like the failstone, imo

[unborn rain]

FUCKING GOTEM

[clever cobalt]

You will be annihilated

Prepare yourself

[warped orbit]

since these prophecies are effectively AUs anyway, it's hard to say whether anything in this is actually true in the "regular" canon

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[thorny berry]

I suppose it's sort of up for grabs

like arguably for asmodeus to die like that the wound that he received in the past would have had to, in the past, be serious enough to be fatal

which it apparently was not

[unborn rain]

True but also I think that him accidentally tricking the world into godhooding him is so funny that I will take it as fact now

[thorny berry]

but then there's also nothing saying that the parts ancillary to the god dying aren't true, so

[warped orbit]

it definitely could be, we just can't really confirm it either way

[fossil temple]

yeah
tho but with free archetype
Which class you would pick?

Fighter?

[echo briar]

I'm just going to leave this here

[turbid dagger]

I thought about it on Barbarian, if I want to do an instinct other than animal
Magus has more magic martial flavor
Thaumaturge would actually REALLY love it now that I think about it
Because they appreciate unarmed attacks and can't take shields
Honestly Thaum is number one yeah holy shit

[fossil temple]

huh, Thaum because he sucks with weapons
I have yet to try Thaum because i fele he is one of the classes that, just by reading it, you don't 'get it' much.

[turbid dagger]

Thaum is very simple
1d8+8 damage at level 1

[warped orbit]

Thaum is actually a lot simpler than it seems, yeah

[turbid dagger]

And you also get some weird RK I guess
There you go thats thaum

[warped orbit]

use Exploit on your target, get either free weakness or exploit their weakness

hit them a lot

[fossil temple]

huh, nice

now i might actually do a thaum rock puncher

Werewolf boxer

[turbid dagger]

Implements Empowerment is Fucked Up

[warped orbit]

Implements Empowerment basically says in exchange for being basically locked into only 1h weapons, you just turn everything into a 2h weapon

[barren cipher]

yeah, thaumaturge is kind of a lot

[solar tendon]

thaum is just like. ranger but with a flat damage bonus

[turbid dagger]

I think its the Stankiest with monks agile stances because lol d10 agile but its still just Fucked even with a battleaxe or something

[fossil temple]

define stankiest

[barren cipher]

i mean it's barb damage isn't it

not even the low damage barbs, the high damage barbs

[turbid dagger]

Just
Crazy and off the usual curve
Because its usually Gods Law that Agile Shall Not Go Over D6
And Finesse Shall Not Go Over D8
Monks get to break that first rule and thaum gets to break both

Dragon Stance str Thaum also amuses me for effective d12 thaum punches but that would involve AC weirdness

Unless you do some truly odd shit with like
Dragon Disciple or something

[barren cipher]

thaum breaks a lot of conventions

gives me conniptions

[turbid dagger]

It gets to have its fun toys because its KAS isn't its to-hit
Which is a minor problem but one that gives me hives

[fossil temple]

why it pisses you off?

[clever cobalt]

Thaum is very good at single target damage, naturally

[barren cipher]

because it breaks a lot of conventions

[clever cobalt]

Yep

[fossil temple]

Then tomorrow I shall try to build a lv8 one

[fierce gulch]

What stance works with monk stabby sword

[clever cobalt]

Iron Body

[fierce gulch]

Aside from peafowl

I see

[turbid dagger]

Typically monk stances focus on unarmed strikes, peafowl is the only one that really interacts with swords specifically
Ironblood Stance, which I think Starduster may have meant, has some potent passive effects that can co-exist with sword swinging though

Parry and some small Resist All

[fossil temple]

Wrestler archetype is also dope as all hell

like
Holy

fuck

it is fun

[turbid dagger]

Wrestler is very neat

Wrestler Lizardfolk Inventor my beloved

[clever cobalt]

Yeah, Ironblood

[fossil temple]

Elaborate

[turbid dagger]

Armor Innovation, Athletic Boosters for circumstance to Athletics
Overdrive damage functions like Barb Rage but isn't halved on agile attacks, and they also get offensive boost
So you do Lizardfolk, take Razorclaws for unarmed shortswords, and spam grapple, suplex, elbow breaker, etc with your agile d6es
Applying loads of nasty statuses and damage as you do

[clever cobalt]

Cyborg Lizardfolk hell yeah

[turbid dagger]

My concept was an Alkenstar Clockfighter who was a prodigy with clockwork but too poor to afford the materials for a clockwork logic core
So he piloted his machine's shell himself and pretended to be a gladiator bot while his gnome con man friend pretended to be the engineer behind it

[carmine egret]

Mecha Godzilla origin story

[rustic cape]

Holy shit that’s rad

[fossil temple]

I know EXACTLY what to do for my Tham. Rock puncher
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPwWsXZ3His

[surreal basin]

Yay! Finally finished the paaridar dungeon and it went well

Their paaridar companion got purified and became a monk/Paladin

[limber comet]

I'm definitely late to the party but man

Cayden's death would REALLY suck

[fast hill]

thinking of running blood lords

because my hell's rebels campaign died

one player is considering being a Ghoran and I wonder: how would a Ghoran be treated in Geb?

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/eh-meh-jim-jim-halpert-the-office-gif-25317293

food i guess, just like anywhere lese?

else*

they tasty

[fast hill]

But most of Geb doesn't eat food

[eager mountain]

human flesh is food

[fast hill]

so their value would be mostly in like, labour

that is truuue

[carmine egret]

"how would the plant-people invented as livestock for the wizard kingdom be treated by the wizard-kingdom's rival that (mostly) doesn't eat plants but also invests heavily in export farming" seems like a question that's really begged by the setting to the point that I'm honestly surprised if it's not mentioned in the Impossible Lands book

[fast hill]

like they honestly might pay/enslave Ghorans not to just eat them but to export their husks

as that is still perfectly edible

it's not immediate pay, but Geb doesn't seem like they're too invested in short-term profits

I'm looking at zon-kuthon worship

and like

they dont seem very suitable for a functioning society

[eager mountain]

nidal begs to differ

plus theres plenty of worshipers of zon-kuthon around there I think

[fast hill]

geb? yeah

thats why I was looking into him

and idk "regularly turning people into limbless torture slaves" doesn't seem very productive

[eager mountain]

thats why you have thralls

[fast hill]

sure but it's something that well established people aspire to be

(limbless torture slaves)

[eager mountain]

doesnt really mean you have too

[fast hill]

one of my players wants to be a skeleton gunslinger

[surreal basin]

Well, it’s like people who take a vow of silence or do crazy shit for the Catholic Church

Those people are seen as awesome saints but the everyday worshipper has other shit they’re invested in

Only the guys who are really going apeshit all in for the religion do that

[silver geyser]

ZK worship has resulted in a stable society. One that' been around since the age of darkness even.

[eager mountain]

if only there was a pale stranger option

[rustic cape]

tfw the monster is cool enough that you want to play one

[fast hill]

do skeletons eat anything?

I just realised this

like zombies eat people

but do skeletons eat people?

[rustic cape]

What is a skeleton's favorite snack

[fast hill]

oh no

[eager mountain]

they collect bones

[warped orbit]

Their undead hunger is bones, to repair themselves with

[rustic cape]

Spare rib

[fast hill]

ic

[eager mountain]

literally skeleton's thing is that they take more bones

theseis's skeleton

[fast hill]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-dxIq8KxaL8

I love this video

[silver geyser]

https://youtube.com/shorts/ZVxuIRKGJKE?si=_vMeT-bxCzLDjA0y

[fast hill]

this is also a question: where do ghouls get the flesh they eat?

mortal slaves?

(geb)

[fierce gulch]

Can they ship of Theseus themselves

The skeletons

[surreal basin]

Yep!

[fast hill]

awesome

[surreal basin]

Vampires get the same source

[turbid dagger]

Zombies and such too
The smart ones anyway, I think the mindless ones just deal

[surreal basin]

Also

[clever cobalt]

Are "regular" Ghouls related to Leng Ghouls at all

Beyond Naming and undeath

[surreal basin]

Am making a villain in my - no not at all iirc

[warped orbit]

Not really I believe

[surreal basin]

Am making a villain in my eldritch game a vetelarana vampire and I have made an executive decision

No big head mode

It’s too silly

To clarify

They normally look like

This

[turbid dagger]

No big head mode seems wise

[clever cobalt]

Blood Lords ||the antagonist of BL is one of those vampires, and he does look a bit silly at times||

[surreal basin]

Oh that is a massive meme in my group that played it

We have a number of images

[clever cobalt]

Spoilers

[surreal basin]

I mean not unless you click your thing

But yes I am not doing this to them

I know my group and it will prevent them from taking this guy seriously if I gotta edit his head to be bigger lmao