there's a firm difference between holding stuff and wielding it though
#Pathfinder
barren cipher
thorny berry
'wielding' is only relevant to weapons and things isn't it
I don't think you have to wield a scroll or potion unless I'm misunderstanding
turbid dagger
I.... really don't see any reason you could not cast a scroll while raising a tome
barren cipher
it's the 'wielding a shield tome' requirement of raise a shield
if you're doing other things with that hand you aren't wielding your shield any more
you might be able to hold it but raise a shield is naturally going to fall off
turbid dagger
Either way, you could just hold the scroll in the weapon hand and cast it from there
(Though for the record I don't really buy that rules interpretation)
barren cipher
i guess if you're weapon implement yeah
turbid dagger
Yeah the idea is tome + weapon
With free archetype, start with weapon and Scroll Esoterica, magus ded at 2, raise tome at 4, tome implement at 5, spell striker at 6 along with scroll thaum
The main issue is getting int +2 at level 1 on a notriously MAD class
barren cipher
yeah it's not like you can dump much of anything else
turbid dagger
The idea I have right now is Catfolk and going full finesse
Dex, Cha, Int, then I throw a free boost on it
barren cipher
constitution is a stat for cowards anyway
or you can drop a point of charisma i guess, +3 is supposed to be ok on thaum
clever cobalt
tfw you see a game you wanna join, but you can't make it work with your schedule 
turbid dagger
Oh my God my abomvaults gang is C O O K I N G
Our beastkin bard just decided they wanted to ||be the daughter of Jaul Mezmin, the werewolf serial killer that terrorized otari 30 years ago, and who now is hiding out on the lower levels||
turbid dagger
Is there any better feeling as a GM than when a player rolls up with something that just perfectly fits into the existing adventure, like a jigsaw puzzle
sinful gyro
The player guides help
clever cobalt
Do you think we'll get more Beastkin stuff in Howl
or will it stay a weird heritage
worthy stump
i wouldn't be surprised if we did
sinful gyro
I think we know all the ancestries in it
clever cobalt
and Awakened Animals (furry)
among other things yeah
Aside from Ancestries and Heritages, what's in it?
and archetypes
sinful gyro
Ah lots of monsters to
carmine egret
excited to see how they wind up
eager mountain
turbid dagger
Unless we elect to get a fifth player, it seems like our lineup for Abomination Vaults is gonna be:
Half Elf Cleric of Desna who is besties with Wrin Sivinxi
Half Elf Thief Rogue whose narrative details are yet undecided
Beastkin (Dunno Ancestry) Bard who is the son of a werewolf that terrorized Otari decades ago
Duskwalker Human Monk who had been killed by cultists of Nhimbaloth in their first life, an event that shattered their lifeview so utterly that Narakaas deemed their soul unfit to present to Pharasma, reincarnating them 500 years later to complete their personal transformation
limber comet
Unless we elect to get a fifth player, it seems like our lineup for Abomination ...
This is a banger party comp ngl
Just, vibes wise
Immaculate
turbid dagger
Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the Bard ||running into their dad||
turbid dagger
Worried that the lack of int skills will hurt them with all the environmental deets, but I'm sure they'll be fine
clever cobalt
Are we getting another "Dead God" today?
solar tendon
kinda weird how rapier is the only d6 finesse weapon without agile
(and one handed, and not advanced)
I mean there are technically others
eager mountain
Are we getting another "Dead God" today?
idk
solar tendon
but its like probing cane is a shortsword that loses agile for sweep and...bludgeoning damage I guess
triggerbrand is interesting actually. rather than being a lower damage dice it loses deadly basically
a couple monk weapons, nunchaku and monkey's fist, dont seem worth losing deadly either. especially the latter
probing cane should just be simple tbh. its trading agile for worse agile and losing versatile (bad versatile but still)
visually impaired ruffians and inventors and clerics :)
rapid wagon
Has anyone ever run a ki focused monk? What's the usual stat spread there? Dex/wis primary?
unborn rain
Depends on what Focus spells your going for I think
Only 4 of the 14 Ki spells actually use your class DC
surreal basin
Are we getting another "Dead God" today?
Nah we’ll be getting it tomorrow
Blog updates on wednesdays
surreal basin
hmmm
trying to decide if I can reasonably make a non-shield champion and not suck
like not use a shield
warped orbit
still works fine yeah
warped orbit
yeah
barren cipher
freehand champ is probably a little rough
warped orbit
they lack good feats for freehand, but you can probably make it up with archetypes
barren cipher
dual wield probably has the best support
worthy stump
free-hand does have the benefit of letting you grapple and use other maneuvers like that, which can be good for managing enemies as a champion
but not much specific feat support in the class proper, yeah
barren cipher
yeah actually thinking about it getting fighter metastrikes for freehand is going to be expensive
but wrestler is right there
worthy stump
wrestler is a good call for free hand champion, yeah
surreal basin
Yeah I’d probably be doing glaive
Glaive Redeemer maybe
But I could also easily go shield cause I’m gonna be a champ of the prismatic ray
warped orbit
unless you do glaive for Shelyn reasons, I would suggest considering a fauchard or guisarme instead
barren cipher
guisarme is the classic
surreal basin
Might not grab a specific holy weapon either
It’ll be for kingmaker
So I might just grab whatever magic weapons get thrown at us
worthy stump
unless it's a specific magic weapon, it wouldn't be hard to transfer runes around anyways
surreal basin
Ye
rustic cape
I strongly endorse fishhook paladin
This thing in the hands of a Paladin is wonderful
turbid dagger
Gill Hook is what I'm taking for my Spirit Barbarian for Abomination Vaults
Run up to a ghost and put em in the Thingamajig
warped orbit
getting hit with the doohickey
turbid dagger
Belcorra Haruvex when I enter the room:
I'm so excited because incorporeal creatures inevitably have dogshit fortitude saves
So I foresee many dudes getting Restrained
warped orbit
yeah ghosts are really weak to grapples generally
turbid dagger
This is usually made up for by str based checks not working on them but,
frank crystal
They never expect the big fucking hook
turbid dagger
But yeah in general making a dude have to Escape, and then Step, to get you is just
Fucked
God forbid you get a reach bigger than ten feet with that thing
.....Gill Hook Giant Barb would probably whip....
frank crystal
The ultimate fuck fishes build
turbid dagger
At that point you really are just kind of swinging an anchor around
If I ever get into some pirate campaign...........
surreal basin
Ghosts being immune to precision damage even from. Ghost touch weapons makes me so I’ll
silver geyser
Hey, at least they're not immune to crits anymore
turbid dagger
Ghosts being immune to precision damage even from. Ghost touch weapons makes me ...
TBH I can kind of get that
They are a mass of ectoplasm, its not like they're a functioning human on the Ghost Plane
Their ghost heart doesn't do anything
But in general precision immunity is Gross
surreal basin
Yeah
barren cipher
yeah honestly precision immunity should probably be retired
crit immunity is plenty
turbid dagger
Dungeon Meshi won a special place in my heart in like the very first pages when Senshi was like 'I killed this slime by stabbing it in the brain'
'it has organs you just can't see them easily cuz they're made of slime'
silver geyser
I would rather have precision immunity than crit immunity
turbid dagger
I'm the opposite
Crits are little bonus thingies
Precision damage is some martial classes Entire Deal
Even fighters don't bank on getting crits
They just get them on 17s or 18s instead of only 20s
But swashbuckler rolls up on a slime and just goes
solar tendon
crit immunity pretty much affects everyone equally
espeically since it only applies to damage
but tbf I'd still rather slimes just had like twice as much health
so they're just crit pinatas
instead of lying crit pinatas
frank crystal
crit immunity pretty much affects everyone equally
I mean I’d say it effects casters much less then martial
solar tendon
true
frank crystal
They do occasionally crit but most casters prefer save spells to attack roll spells
frank crystal
but tbf I'd still rather slimes just had like twice as much health
Same
It’d be a very fun experience
If basically every hit was a crit
surreal basin
Precision immunity does just turn off certain classes yeah
There’s no way around it you just
Don’t get to interact with the encounter
solar storm
I think that’s overstating things, especially when there are situations where someone actually can’t interact with an encounter
That said I don’t think there’s a problem with different classes having different amounts of difficulty with different things
solar tendon
I think the thing with precision is that its kinda arbitrary
like just turning off a class feature isn't engaging difficulty
surreal basin
Especially when it’s the class feature that most classes are built around
solar tendon
like I get overall there is a logic to precision damage and precision immunity
surreal basin
Classes don’t really deal precision damage on the side
It’s the thing you build around dealing
Whenever I’ve played a precision damage based class I’ve avoided fighting things immune to it full stop lol
solar tendon
I think it's also like when you roll high on damage is that not also a representation of hitting a weak spot?
so shouldn't stuff with precision immunity just have resistance to damage instead
at least golems were still interactive
even if arguably insufficiently so
true delta
GatewalkersSession2.png
solar tendon
rip
solar storm
Oof
solar storm
Whenever I’ve played a precision damage based class I’ve avoided fighting things...
I’m guessing you mean like fights with oozes and other enemies and I think encouraging that kind of party wide target selection is kind of the benefit of rules like this
solar tendon
definitely an argument for diverse encounters
which are unfortunately uncommon in aps fwiw
party comp discussions going well
thorny berry
just go life oracle and blow yourself up, bing bong so simple
barren cipher
the difference between 'we can top up to full between fights' and 'healing is for cowards' is that i can see you getting a full time healer pretty soon with the latter
solar tendon
yeah
we'll see!
we're all pretty experienced so it's not like we'll be confused if it does go wrong haha
as it is I'm playing a ranged character so hopefully won't be my problem ;)
I can retrain into searing restoration too if necessary
and construct companion is healable hp
barren cipher
oh yeah if you're sending in the minion to get its little clockwork face pushed in every fight then that's a big buffer
thorny berry
now I'm trying to think what the most 'you died? sounds like a skill issue' build is
bow monk or something
barren cipher
'why are you using a longbow, they have volley, what if someone closes in on you'
lol, lmao
thorny berry
wholeness of body and ki rush
nyoooom
barren cipher
i played sword and board orc paladin/cavalier, it's actually fairly dangerous a lot of the time
you naturally put yourself in harm's way and when the going gets tough there's a lot of competition for your reaction
turbid dagger
What irks me about volley is that the majority of fights I've been in have been in rooms that are smaller than the volley radius
So you literally can't get into your good range
barren cipher
yeah it's weird
warped orbit
it really depends on what kind of maps your GM runs
barren cipher
i get that it's to give shortbow a niche but being in volley range is really damaging
warped orbit
but Volley can be pretty tricky to manage yeah
barren cipher
and the upgrade is so minor
warped orbit
but then again, Point Blank Stance
turbid dagger
i get that it's to give shortbow a niche but being in volley range is really dam...
I've got a silly take
The shortbow/longbow dichotomy should be that the shortbow type weapons have a smaller dice but are Agile
Give those Flurry Rangers some Juice for Hunted Shot
warped orbit
agile shortbow might just be the best ranged weapon in the game tbh
turbid dagger
To be clear, I don't mean like
As they exist now
In this hypothetical world both the shortbow and longbow would have fairly different stats
I'm not saying 'slap agile on the shortbow'
Because then it would just be a shortsword with Deadly
And range
trail nova
agile shortbow might just be the best ranged weapon in the game tbh
Agile Shortbow would uhh... 1e arrow-spam builds would look about right.
(Not that arrow spam was amazing unless you wanted to dump 7-9 feats into it.
frank crystal
Is there any actual ranged agile weapons?
warped orbit
Is there any actual ranged agile weapons?
air repeater
trail nova
I think they're too afraid of turret-builds.
warped orbit
but I think it's the only one
trail nova
But those already exist, they just do something other than shoot for their 3rd action.
warped orbit
But those already exist, they just do something other than shoot for their 3rd a...
unless its Flurry Ranger :p
or Triple Shot Fighter
frank crystal
air repeater
Oh yah
warped orbit
or Starlit Span Magus
turbid dagger
I think they're too afraid of turret-builds.
Look
Anyone can just roll up with a Starlit Span-
Yeah
Spellstrike and Force Fang till you run out of focus points
warped orbit
and then you just Spellstrike and Recharge
though tbf, uninterrupted uptime is really the main benefit of ranged
because your damage is a good bit lower than melee
turbid dagger
Mhm, burning actions is always nice
trail nova
I always get weirded out by 30 feet being a safe buffer, mostly because the 3pp I toy with when I'm having fun with 1e means that 30 feet is often well within "single melee attack as a standard action" range
warped orbit
for some monsters, that's also still the case
but it varies
though really for maximum turret gameplay you probably wanna get yourself a mount, so you can move around for free
though I am in general feeling recently that a mount is just pretty good for a lot of builds
once you hit mature it's basically a free Stride every turn
trail nova
Stacks with Quickened too!
frank crystal
Are creatures immune to mental effects immune to illusions?
turbid dagger
Beastmaster monk would be cool huh
I just realized
Like, the whole thing with them is 'what do I spend all these actions on'
silver geyser
Ooooo, that is nice!
thorny berry
that and a lot of animal companion support abilities activate 'per-hit' iirc and, y'know, flurry
like bear gets 1-2d8 free damage per strike
frank crystal
It depends on the spell.
Ah ok
eager mountain
true delta
Cursed
surreal basin
My only character with volley I eventually let them upgrade their weapon to get rid of it
But the answer is to find a way to get point blank stance
unborn rain
Magic item which gives the volley weapon a sort of "close range" mode?
true delta
New players for my shaky campaign have been found. 😌
solar tendon
magic item that reverses volleys effect
permanently
for the entire setting
made by firearm merchants
fossil temple
A yes, Nephys
His devotees wear that image of him as Chris-chan wear Sonichu's medallion
As the great god gave them the unspoken, unstoppable ability of "UHN ACTUALLY"
frank crystal
There’s no PF2E equivalent to the inevitables right?
The like, cosmic robots that enforce universal truths
By punching the offenders in the face really hard
worthy stump
what do you mean? inevitables are around in 2e, although they count as aeons now too
frank crystal
Oh
worthy stump
frank crystal
I thought they were a WOTC original, so not in the game
light gyro
||satan is safe 
||
turbid dagger
Damn it
That was the one I was hoping for
clever cobalt
||So is the wound canon, even if his death from it isn't?||
||Also Ihys releasing Rovugug? Sounds like a bad idea||
update, the Wound is canon
unborn rain
||Ihys setting up a cold war to stop anyone fucking with him is sorta funny||
||Also implication of the possibility of all the prophecies being true is interesting||
clever cobalt
||Alternate timelines baby!||
unborn rain
||I was thinking of a single mega fucked timeline but that's probably what they actually meant||
turbid dagger
As noted by the scribe, Pharasma is alive in this so they are necessarily mutually exclusive
clever cobalt
yeah I read that as wel
doens't preclude alt timelines though
Also I figured it out
||Cayden dies, prohibition reigns across Golarion. The God War starts because even the gods want booze.||
unborn rain
||Cayden dies, and the god of crime takes over his domaine||
light gyro
i tried to frame my party with drugs and they responded by near-demolishing a building
echo briar
||Cayden dies, prohibition reigns across Golarion. The God War starts because ev...
||I mean, brewers would be hurt, but unless there was widespread prohibition movements only kept in check by Cayden, it should still be legal||
The gods do not control the laws in most places, nor does their death destroy their domain
true delta
So no God of War scenarios?
unborn rain
When the god of animals got killeded all the animals started being mean because Lamashtu took over
Maybe something like that could happen to alcohol
light gyro
lamashtu would make the beer evil?
surreal basin
Lmao
I expect lamashtu to be one of the prophecy ones
Still betting on iomadae or Zon Kuthon
ember bay
Just have that slot in the Major 20 be a revolving door
trail nova
Just have Rovavug die and have everybody going "uhhh, what?"
light gyro
ember bay
Still betting on iomadae or Zon Kuthon
Apparently there's also going to be some change happening to the Prismatic Ray so I can see something like Zon dies and Shelyn enters her goth phase because of it.
surreal basin
Yeah
And as I’ve mentioned bbefore
I don’t believe them when they say starfinder has no impact
So that drop of “Zon-Shelyn” that they refused to elaborate on is
Mighty suspicion
rustic cape
Rovagug dying would functionally end the cold war going on so
This is why I keep saying it would be great
Rovagug dies, everybody starts throwing hands
War of Immortals
barren cipher
frank crystal
Is Rovagug even on the chart?
limber comet
Yesss
frank crystal
Ohhh
limber comet
I wonder how badly the world would suffer if Erastil died
Like, idk if it's God War levels but it seems pretty important
ember bay
Saw someone throw in a case for Irori to be the one. Apparently the death of the god is going to be reason why the new class Exemplar exists. And that does sound like a very Irori class.
limber comet
Like, Nahoa is specifically described as accidentally getting hit with a splash of god juice
frank crystal
Yah Exemplar’s divinity can come from anyone
surreal basin
I do think people are forgetting that they’ve said non-core gods are also gonna die
clever cobalt
Oh they did?
surreal basin
Yeah I’m pretty sure it was in Luis’s Reddit post
clever cobalt
Groteus dies
limber comet
PFFTHWHAJA
clever cobalt
Ghlaunder, Alseta, Nivi Rhombodazzle, Kurgess
At least one of these 4 is gonna die
ember bay
Think I've only ever heard of Kurgess of that bunch.
clever cobalt
Exactly
turbid dagger
Balumbdar dies
Every monster of size large or higher goes down a size bracket, gargantuan creatures don't exist anymore
turbid dagger
Mounted builds the world over weep
clever cobalt
But yeah I'm expecting some of the less relevant gods to die
Like the ones I listed
All the gods I listed are from the Gods and Magic book btw
With their own pages and everything
ember bay
Man, I'm still kind of chuckling over Asmodeus' hypothetical death. Just unceremoniously kneels over from a wound he got at the like beginning of time.
light gyro
not read it yet, you're telling me he got androids-timeline goku'd??
turbid dagger
not read it yet, you're telling me he got androids-timeline goku'd??
Ihys hit em in the heart during their fight and he's been slowly bleeding out ever since, according to the prophecy
ember bay
Not even his heart, his leg.
clever cobalt
Tbf it was a wound thst always hurt him
Though that hurt ranged from "occasional mild aches" to "infected medical nightmare'
Also
Have we gotten any Taldor lore, aside from the new queen (due to War for the Throne)?
light gyro
rules check: would cascade bearer's flexibility let you use silent spell even if you dont meet the pre-requisite? https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1105
barren cipher
it often says explicitly that you have to meet prerequisites, but i'm not totally sure that the absence of that text is the same as the presence of its opposite
solar storm
How has Abomination Vaults been for people? I've been running it and its been... a little disappointing and I'm wondering if I'm missing something or not running it right or if it's just not really my style
There's been an awful lot of "filler" fights which feel sort of like pointless speedbumps and the dungeon itself has felt weird to explore
light gyro
vaults has a reputation as a party-killer, so surprised to hear encounters described as speed-bumps. but that's all i know
solar storm
There has been a couple of notably hard ones but there's been a lot of speed bump encounters between them
light gyro
https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sii4?The-Godsrain-Prophecies-Part-Two
also must confess that this prophecy has piqued my interest in learning more of the fallen god Ihys
you and me both little buddy
solar storm
> also must confess that this prophecy has piqued my interest in learning more ...
Yeah the Ihys stuff seems interesting
turbid dagger
Well it's a mix
Some encounters are 'one fairy, it surrenders if it takes damage' and some are pl +3 hell beasts that can break your armor as part of its Strike
solar tendon
rules check: would cascade bearer's flexibility let you use silent spell even if...
fwiw silent spell and conceal spell are combined in remaster anyway
solar storm
I think some of it is that my party comp has a lot of resourceless power and some really strong feats for a dungeon crawl
light gyro
fwiw silent spell and conceal spell are combined in remaster anyway
oh that settles it lol. thanks!
solar storm
Timber Sentinel might be balanced normally but in really cramped interior areas with almost entirely melee enemies it doesn't feel like it haha
turbid dagger
I'm gonna be running and playing in abomvaults soon but cannot yet give input
barren cipher
there's only purifying spell that has a prerequisite that isn't directly used by the metamagic itself i think
light gyro
Timber Sentinel might be balanced normally but in really cramped interior areas ...
funny tree feat is apparently controversial
at least, its the only feat i've seen people stress over
barren cipher
i'm not a great fan of permaflight at 8 either
but timber sentinel has a lot of things that get people's hackles up yeah
turbid dagger
Yeah tree sentinel is somewhat maligned
It do be a spell slot spell for free
clever cobalt
My GM got upset over Flyinf Flame
barren cipher
the spell is not really that good, honestly
solar storm
Yeah that's kind of the tricky spot for it - its kind of weak as a spell but very strong as a resourceless option which gives you thp
(well, a tiny amount of thp in fairness)
clever cobalt
ah yeah flying flame isn't like a regular line is it
Yep, basically it's a 30 foot line you draw
solar storm
I think I need to fuck around with AV more to get what I want out of it, the dungeon is just not really my style as a GM and its chafing for sure
turbid dagger
My thoughts on the wood impulse thp is like
You get it every round more or less
How much HP saved is that over a campaign
barren cipher
i know it's conditional and all but timber sentinel and a ranged blast is a turn with almost no brain and quite a lot of power
it works in most fights with zero adaptation required
solar storm
Yeah, and its fairly action intensive to defeat
barren cipher
it's ok if you can snag it in an aoe or something but not everyone has that
solar storm
Admittedly, I am about to run a fight with slanted enough action economy that I can probably mess with it
light gyro
the level scaling is NUTS
barren cipher
yeah like i'm just going to cast the worst 10th level spell in the game every round
is still an insane proposition
solar storm
I'm not so worried about it for the "bigger" fights like it was pretty bad vs ||Mr. Break|| but it makes the minor combats go from "only a little attritional" to "0-2 damage expected to the party"
barren cipher
also some player or another is going to go 'haha i'm going to put trees everywhere and at the least appropriate possible times'
related: 'this negotiation seems too tense, the head of the necromancer's guild is now holding a fruit'
solar storm
I haven't had that sort of issue, though the wood kinetist has been Earning Income by magically planting saplings for the local sawmill
I do think any kind of unlimited use magical effect like that does invite using it as much as possible
light gyro
yeah Make Forest is silly but ultimately harmless, and no game is immune to bad-faith play
turbid dagger
My wood water kineticist just feeds our entire party for free with base kinesis
solar storm
I think the "filler" encounters are just sort of demoralizing because there's not that much to do with 1 monster in a small room
I'm looking forward to the next session because ||The players just followed the glowing ghost trail into the library and are probably gonna pull aggro from most of the cult of the canker||
turbid dagger
Honestly depending on the encounter you could have trivial encounters like that try and talk it out, or run off and find help
There's surprisingly few truly mindless creatures in the abomination vaults uirc
turbid dagger
Thats something I really like, by-the-by- it feels less like a hack and slash kill cave and more like
A big fortress
There's like, a society of sorts down there
warped orbit
AV definitely has a lot of encounters that are kinda filler, but I don't mind it too much personally
but then it also has a bunch of actually really hard encounters mixed between
lot of PL+2 or +3 encounters
solar storm
I am really looking for some player perspective so this is helpful thanks
The ||GIant skeleton|| fight in particular was a kind of "why is this here" one for me ||Since the players beat it mostly to death while it was still putting itself together||
surreal basin
It’s really crazy that AV is pitched as a good first adventure imo
warped orbit
The ||GIant skeleton|| fight in particular was a kind of "why is this here" one ...
there are a few like that, yeah
though if the fight doesn't end quickly it can get tough
solar storm
Yeah I can see that one being more interesting if its a split party or a few people following the trail or something
scenic patio
https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sii4?The-Godsrain-Prophecies-Part-Two
I am surprised by this
sinful gyro
About him not dying?
turbid dagger
It’s really crazy that AV is pitched as a good first adventure imo
What do you not like about it in that context? Its got the Good Module and there's not much downtime between rooms, which seem appealing for 'lets dig into this system'
surreal basin
just the pretty crazy difficulty spikes
it seems like it's a really difficult place to start
silver geyser
You know, the crazy difficulty spikes are pretty on brand for PF2e as a system.
turbid dagger
I ask because uhhhhhhhhh
I am prepping to run it as my first longform game as a GM in the system, and one of the players is new
(I did a little homebrew beginners box esque level 1 dungeon FIRST first but)
surreal basin
oh that's fair just
I would look into some of the early encounters
and decide if you wanna run them as written
warped orbit
it has some hard fights, but until later most of them are at least kind of telegraphed
surreal basin
i know it has some pl+4 stuff which paizo almost never does
turbid dagger
Yeah, reading the module I do see some Spooks but most come with 'how to run' text to the effect of 'this thing kicks mean ass but does not leave the room its in'
warped orbit
though my experience is perhaps not entirely as standard, since our group was up a level for most of the AP which did definitely help a lot
warped orbit
i know it has some pl+4 stuff which paizo almost never does
||the Void Glutton is at least completely optional, and also fairly well hidden||
turbid dagger
Thats the one I keep hearing about lol
surreal basin
yeah
turbid dagger
I should actually find where it is and read its room text
warped orbit
yeah
turbid dagger
I've been keeping my research to the floor the players are on and the one just below it, and then just getting the Vibes of the plot/dungeon after that
Because my brain can only hold so much
surreal basin
a precision heavy party can get really fucked up
warped orbit
though how much that impacts people depends a lot on class
turbid dagger
We have a uhhhhhhhhh
Cleric of Desna
Bard
Thief Rogue
Temple Sword Monk
warped orbit
I should actually find where it is and read its room text
||it's on floor 4 I believe, in a secret room||
warped orbit
We have a uhhhhhhhhh
Cleric of Desna
Bard
Thief Rogue
Temple Sword Monk
it's a slight issue for the Rogue, but nothing too major I feel
turbid dagger
Yeah
And the rogue is going martial artist so they are hitting a little harder than most thiefs without precision
warped orbit
yeah especially as a Thief they should be fine
there is also another +4, but it's on a much later floor
||there's a Froghemoth on floor 8 I believe||
turbid dagger
The later monster that spooks me the most is the ||adamantine mole rat what breaks your armor||
Oh the armor breaking isn't as bad as I thought
I forgot what actually scared me about that thing
The ||Boss grade fortitude saves to avoid slowed and eventually MULTI HOUR PARALYZE||
warped orbit
hmm, I don't actually remember that one
turbid dagger
It's called a ||shuln||
And okay yeah I found the ||Voidglutton|| room and it does indeed say that it does not chase people outside of the room its in
It also offers a (grim) way to let your group off lightly if it beats them
turbid dagger
Doing Dinner At Lionlodge via play by post
Would you say seeing ||a mounted humanoid head|| in a hunting lodge you've been invited too would be sufficient reason to jump instantly to 'lets kill this dude'
eager mountain
out of context abomination vault's session 11 notes
surreal basin
Doing Dinner At Lionlodge via play by post
Would you say seeing ||a mounted huma...
Uhhhh……. Potentially if the party is prone to jumping the gun
light gyro
||now im wondering if a gnoll would keep their taxidermied relatives around as a sign of respect||
unborn rain
||Isnt that more a diss, like "We won't eat you, in fact we will keep your corpse around to show we didnt eat you."||
light gyro
||Isnt that more a diss, like "We won't eat you, in fact we will keep your corps...
||as far as I know taxidermy pieces don't tend to have the meat still inside them. Or the bones? I don't know. I guess they could probably eat the bones but they at least keep those around for religious/magic reasons||
sinful gyro
Yeah that's a dnd thing
limber comet
Ahhh that tracks
sinful gyro
They do "Keep a bone from a favorite relative to ask for advice."
Or at least there's
"Equally misunderstood is the gnoll practice of ancestor worship and endocannibalism. Gnolls consume their dead as a sign of reverence, holding a grand feast and transforming the bones of the fallen into art or weapons. Gnolls extend this honor to respected foes, hoping to bring their enemy's cunning or strength into the clan. While it's a sign of admiration, not everyone sees it that way."
limber comet
Ah okay right
I haven't read the whole entry in a while
Meant to say Kholo entry but whole entry works too
sinful gyro
My main point being, it's more a misunderstood cultural thing than like rabid savage cannibal thing
limber comet
Nah I gotcha
light gyro
Wonder what a kholo would think of Walkena's soldiers (I believe willingly usually) becoming undead to serve him further.
unborn rain
They wouldnt care, Kholo believe in like practicality above most things
And I don't think any of the gods they generally worship have any big hullaboo against undeath
solar tendon
kholo like pharasma don't they
eager mountain
uhhh like all things depends on the group
just like depending on region, the kholo are seen different
fossil temple
Reload 1 = 1 Action to reload?
worthy stump
Correct
clever cobalt
What ancestry do you think is best for "got cursed by the woods, and becoming an animalistic monster"?
Fleshwarp?
light gyro
beastwarp (slightly taller dog) and fleshkin (literally just a guy)
fossil temple
or go Gnoll and grab Fey Influence (lv5) and say you got cursed into be a gnoll
Did we get more lore on Apsu?
surreal basin
thinking about using wights as the primary enemy in like
a ptumerian tomb kinda situation
where they're all the remains of a civilization
but idk if I should change drain life
if I want to use a bunch of them
it feels like that could quickly rip players apart? but also it could just be a dungeon/set of dungeons that they're encouraged to long rest in
fossil temple
I never knew Tombstone Troll was so cute
fossil temple
it feels like that could quickly rip players apart? but also it could just be a ...
Well why wights, first of all?
like, is thematic, is their look/drip, etc.
surreal basin
mostly their vibe but also that they're an intelligent undead that can be varied
fossil temple
To vary what you think about using other humanoid enemies but making them ghostly undead?
Still 'wights' lore wise
surreal basin
I think applying the wight block to some fellas would be useful cause it’s an existing statblock
unborn rain
You could maybe have the wights be controlling unintelligent dead? To reduce the amount of Drained coming out?
surreal basin
You could maybe have the wights be controlling unintelligent dead? To reduce the...
Oh yeah that could work
unborn rain
You could also maybe reduce the DC on the fortitude a little bit in areas with lots of them
Recommend players take good con and stuff
surreal basin
yeah true
turbid dagger
My abomvaults group is doing so good integrating their characters into the plot
There's the duskwalker who ||was killed by Belcorra Haruvex in a previous life||
The beastkin whose dad was ||Jaul Mezmin the werewolf||
And now our half elf Cleric of Desna has decided that ||one of the Osprey Thieves that have gone missing|| is her half sister on her human dad's side
turbid dagger
I'm thinking so that final plot thread lasts a little longer I'll have them pull an Otari and ||escape capture only to head deeper into the vaults||
Where's a good place to have them wind up you think?
My first thought is ||captive of the voidglutton|| but thats probably way too mean
Some place they can be captured/trapped and need the PCs help to get out
And it should probably be before the ||Barrier you need the roseguard stuff to open|| because uhhhh
||The barrier||
turbid dagger
I have decided that they will be with ||vaulgrist the velstrac||
They are very excited to have a new subject after so many centuries
limber comet
Yep!
eager mountain
I never knew Tombstone Troll was so cute
They are also smal sized
turbid dagger
Hrmg
Double slice Rogue yes/no?
I really like Flensing Slice so I'm thinking about dual weapon warrior builds
Double slice barbarian might also be good but something in me recoils at doing half rage damage with an agile weapon
Could eat the -2 but
barren cipher
it’s ok, not amazing
for giant barb you just eat the -2, not sure about other instincts
turbid dagger
Can you get two Big Sticks as a giant
barren cipher
i think i’d rather do like ranger dedication or something on rogue
yeah, i did dual flickmace
it’s horrifying honestly
warped orbit
Can you get two Big Sticks as a giant
yeah, you can just get another big weapon
Giant Barb is pretty good for it honestly, thanks to all the reach you get
frank crystal
Honestly had an idea for an archetype about being entombed in a suit of armor
So you can’t take it off anymore
Inspired by warcaskets from the rimworld pirates mod
rapid wagon
question, thought on how to build a traditional samurai?
well 2 options, the traditional movie samurai and then the more historical samurai
turbid dagger
well 2 options, the traditional movie samurai and then the more historical samur...
Former, maybe a dueling/dual handed assault katana fighter
Can parry, do maneuvers and still hit like your swinging two handed, just flavor all your maneuvers as being done with your sword
Latter, uh...... probably also a Fighter but with Cavalier dedication, taking shots from horseback with a daikyu
rapid wagon
can the fighter be built to function in clothing or very light armor?
i was figuring a movie samurai might be done well with a swashbuckler
turbid dagger
It could, you could always go dex fighter or swash, but the issue is Katanas aren't finesse
Could pull a zatoichi with a cane sword tho
turbid dagger
There are rules on playing one I believe
eager mountain
Think it's viable to play a blind character?
yes
also a beastkin can get like . echolocation at higher levels
plus like, ya know, cane sword
also
fossil temple
They are also smal sized
They look like kobolds a lil
trail nova
Was reading a PF adventure path, and was struck by one part where it almost expects one of the PCs to fake being the leader of a spy-ring to his underlings? TBF, the guy is a shapeshifter, but still. Seems very, very high risk.
light gyro
"I'm totally your boss" is a pretty common gambit in my experience
unborn rain
What's the point of disguise self if not "I'm totally your boss"
rustic cape
Paizo's AP writers are generally good but they are not immune to Writer Syndrome
light gyro
and i love it when aps pre-empt weird shit the author can see the party trying
trail nova
I guess I always shy away from trying to impersonate people that the target knows. Too high a chance that they ask about something I have no knowledge of.
light gyro
That's why you pretend to be their boss. "I'm the one asking questions here!"
true delta
Paizo's AP writers are generally good but they are not immune to Writer Syndrome
Pls explain what Writer Syndrome is.
I just know my Starfinder-affine friend complained about an AP ||where you're space Amazon, you constantly lose money (and HP) and when your boss fires you from this unprofitable and terrible job, the AP expects the players to seek revenge on their former boss.||
rustic cape
Pls explain what Writer Syndrome is.
I'm referring in this case to when a GM or adventure writer has a specific vision of how the story proceeds that is based on the characters making extremely specific and character-dependent choices
More broadly I use Writer Syndrome to refer to when the GM/adventure writer doesn't quite realize that they're not writing a novel
true delta
Ah, I see.
eager mountain
Was reading a PF adventure path, and was struck by one part where it almost expe...
What one is that? What?
trail nova
War for the Crown
eager mountain
Wierd
trail nova
TBF, it's probably the AP where I'd most expect someone to be able to pull off that sort of disguise.
And it's not required for plot advancement, just makes stuff easier.
(Apparently some people made the horrible decision to try and play War for the Crown without anyone having Sense Motive. Which is... certainly a choice.)
silver geyser
(Apparently some people made the horrible decision to try and play War for the C...
I have a new challenge run
trail nova
"I'm playing War for the Crown with my 6 Int Barbarian who doesn't know how to read and only has climb as a trained skill."
silver geyser
"I am here to ruin plans. Ours, the enemies, anyones."
turbid dagger
Beef Slabchest vs House Targaryen
thorny berry
I'm still a little sad that you definitionally Cannot be untrained in the sense motive equivalent in 2e
I'm still tempted to say give that function to society (outside of stuff like Feint) just because that skill also seems kinda undercooked but admittedly that would similarly not work with a lot of character concepts
silver geyser
I'm still a little sad that you definitionally Cannot be untrained in the sense ...
I am in the same boat
Some people should be gullible
Perception itself is a thing everyone should have though
trail nova
I get the perception change (enough people going "always max perception"). Folding Sense Motive in was a bit weird.
trail nova
I also feel like 2e "high proficiency" skill counts are a bit sparse. Maybe not to the "all named skills at max-rank" that I've hit in 1e or Starfinder, but uhhh.... the current number of proficiency bumps feels a bit low.
Particularly how important hitting max-bonus is for a lot of stuff.
solar tendon
I think it's like
too vertical
you have a bunch of trained and then abt two at max
thorny berry
you have a bunch of trained and then abt two at max
yeah this
int giving trainings but not advancements still feels weird
and also not great for int as a stat
solar tendon
as opposed to like a bunch trained 30% expert 10% master or something
thorny berry
though on the flip side the training paradigm is also weird in the, like
astronomical jump from untrained to trained vs trained to expert
(I know untrained improviser exists don't @ me)
trail nova
It feels like they expected Trained skills (and lower profficiencies in general, see the weapon proficiency feats) to be more relevant than they are.
Which is weird given how much the rest of the game goes "a +2 is a massive swing"
thorny berry
yeah I was sort of hoping they'd do more with those in the remaster they feel like 1e-style trap feats
solar tendon
I mean trained is relevant
that's why untrained improvisation is one of the most valued feats if you wanna have optimisation brain
silver geyser
Training at least makes help reliable
fossil temple
Pathbuilder let sme make my dragon a half orc
DRAGON ORC IT IS
rustic cape
Beef Slabchest vs House Targaryen
Conan Destroys Westeros, an 800 chapter fanfic that ends with Conan Destroying Westeros
true delta
Have y'all seen that Paizo's pawns and minis are heavily discounted at the moment? Useful to those within cheap shipping range: https://paizo.com/store/sale/marvelousMinisAndProdigiousPawnsPromotion/pawns
fossil temple
Poppet is currently the only way to play as a quadruped right?
light gyro
You were designed to serve as a scout or assassin and have a body resembling a pack hunter like a large cat or wolf. Though you typically move like a quadruped, you can still stand and fight like a biped, allowing you to use all equipment normally
yea
frank crystal
They even get bonuses for not holding anything
turbid dagger
Hunter automaton monk seems hype
Speedy as fuck robot wolf with wolf stance
frank crystal
There’s stuff like the ancestry that gives you an animal form
That’s still useable to be like, using weapons and stuff
I don’t remember the name though
fossil temple
> You were designed to serve as a scout or assassin and have a body resembling a...
Thank
frank crystal
I wish there was a way to use a weapon without using a hand
Just to properly make that build
fossil temple
Chainsaw tail
Chainsaw tail
Chainsaw tail
frank crystal
Exactly
turbid dagger
fanged rune clockwork macuahuitl in the mouth of a hunter automaton
Do you think the speed boost would still kick in in an animal form
fossil temple
Would Magus work with this? mmh
rapid wagon
oh follow up quesiton, Pf1e had a samurai archetype called the ironbound sword which heavily focuses on nonlethal damage and preserving their foe's lives
barren cipher
do you still need to be able to speak to cast spells in remaster?
rapid wagon
oh follow up quesiton, Pf1e had a samurai archetype called the ironbound sword w...
Is this something i could do in pf2e
turbid dagger
Is this something i could do in pf2e
There are multiple feats that let you add the nonlethal trait to all weapons
Bounty Hunter and Gladiator have them iirc
rapid wagon
warped orbit
You can make any attack non lethal, it just takes a penalty if the weapon doesn't have the trait
turbid dagger
But there's not much with an actual FOCUS on it
silver geyser
Merciful is still a thing, right?
rapid wagon
yeah its a bit less just doing nonlethal damage i think, which i understand you can just do
fossil temple
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1433
That made me think of a Poppet wolf plushy bites it's swords to have a magical girl transformation into Sif
rapid wagon
but yeah i just like the flavor, incidentally i really liked the various samurai archetypes they released
The ironbound sword’s fighting style, focused on incapacitating opponents rather than killing them, is founded on a philosophy that cares both for the samurai and for her attacker. This style became prevalent during the peaceful and stable periods of Lung Wa, and reflected those values. Using these techniques, an ironbound sword can subdue a foe without causing permanent harm, leaving the soul of the samurai unstained by deaths of her enemies.
the brawling blademaster was also cool
silver geyser
That is a good vibe.
barren cipher
there's a rune for it now yeah
turbid dagger
yeah its a bit less just doing nonlethal damage i think, which i understand you ...
There's nothing with a special focus on it, no
Bounty Hunter and Gladiator have the nonlethal stuff for pragmatic reasons (want to collect the bounty/its just a performance)
But yeah that archetype does look really interesting
The focus on mixing strikes and combat maneuveurs is neat
barren cipher
grappler, obviously
turbid dagger
I think what Stormtalus wants is a character option with a fantasy that is specifically about preserving people's lives from a moral standpoint, not just mechanically capable of making attacks nonlethal
barren cipher
redeemer champ is kinda there i guess?
pf2 is generally pretty reluctant to give out bonuses in exchange for restrictions
rapid wagon
could do a champ/bounty hunter or champ/gladiator with a samurai theme
or go a swashbuckler and heavily feat into nonlethal perhaps
silver geyser
It woud be neat to make stuff for this I feel.
turbid dagger
This archetype does make me wish you could use wrestler stuff with weapons tho
Grab a dude with one hand and Elbow Breaker them with your sword
Gill Hook Suplex
echo briar
https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sii7?Dragons-Worth-a-Fortune#discuss With fangs like that, how the hell can they eat?
barren cipher
i feel like if you're in a place where you're implanting magical weapons in your face mostly just for the vibes, eating is probably not really that big a problem
turbid dagger
Smilodons managed it, I trust this guy
unborn rain
pick up the food, drop it in your gullet
turbid dagger
My question is how this guy is melting stuff onto its face
I assume its using its breath
The three shields over its eyes seem hard to reach with that
Unless its premelting them and slapping them on its forehead with its hand like a sticker
carmine egret
They melt as a result of the arcane energy being drawn through them
warped orbit
speaking of dragons, my party encountered one in our game yesterday
fortunately I've been keeping a few consumables on hand for just such an occasion, thanks to having casting dedications on my Investigator
two scrolls of Heroism 6 on our frontliners (Barb and Fighter) and two scrolls of Synesthesia (they crit succeeded against the first one) later, and we got a dead dragon on our hands in only two rounds
Scrolls of Heroism 6 are only 300 gold a pop
a good thing to keep in mind 😛
surreal basin
what should a big amalgam of diseased animals be weak to
silver geyser
Perfection
craggy thunder
Finally continuing our homebrew testing beginner box game tonight
surreal basin
Secondary question: I want to leave this off with a like
Horror note
That this disease that doesn’t effect humans was starting to evolve to infect them
the only thing I can think of is like
Them coming across a humanoid corpse nearby the source with signs of infection
turbid dagger
Maybe throughout the scenario your encountering various infected animals, but the capstone amalgamation boss has a human in it
surreal basin
surreal basin
Started book 3 of gatewalkers
This first chapter is genuinely like
On par with some of the best stuff from 1e
turbid dagger
Does it feel Too High Level like I've heard
surreal basin
Oh absolutely
It should have been a full 1-20 imo
Buuuuut barring that
Which is honestly a very mild issue
It’s pretty good
clever cobalt
Mechanically or narratively?
surreal basin
The second book is kinda weak but has some cool moments to even it out
clever cobalt
Fair fsir
turbid dagger
It should have been a full 1-20 imo
Ive usually heard the opinion it should have been an 11-20
But good to hear, gate walkers seems neat
limber comet
I think it should've been 1-20 too actually tbh
I think that there's some post adventure stuff that could be substituted for early game stuff instead
Like, gatewalkers spoiler ||The post adventure ideas mention a cult in the desert which would make an infinitely better starting point than...straight up going to another planet lmao||
turbid dagger
To be fair
It's not like ||Castrovel|| has a reason to be a High Level Zone
If you have a portal there why not
It's weird rainbow bears and slime tigers aren't any more dangerous than Golarions wildlife
surreal basin
It’s more the
Stuff that the plot is related to
Feels like high level issues
It’s not a weirdness thing it’s a scale thing
solar tendon
yeah no I get that
surreal basin
Like
Spoilers but
||You fight a dark Fae lord in the first book, in the second book you create the first godcaller in centuries, it’s some wild shit||
solar tendon
in a way my point I guess is that gatewalker's uh. elevator pitch I guess can work perfectly well for a low power party
solar tendon
but the actual story does not
solar tendon
and it's that dissonance that causes that feeling
surreal basin
Also
Book 3 has the smartest idea ever
After binding an outsider
Use the inveigle ritual on it
Which is long lasting charm and suggestion
heavy fulcrum
eager mountain
On par with some of the best stuff from 1e
i feel bad that my group stopped doing it becuase our gm figured we werent into it enough
we were about to get to kanepo
rustic cape
I think the first big clue that it was originally an 11-20 is Kanepo
Because according to my GM, Kanepo's description discusses how even the Bogeymen fear him
Bogeymen are level 10 enemies
You fight Kanepo at level 2
clever cobalt
Yeah, lol
rustic cape
It's a good AP but the level weirdness definitely shows
unborn rain
What're some good Alkenstar names for a gnoll
solar tendon
filling out a physical character sheet while exhausted has started my penny hates pathfinder arc
hopefully it's over soon :P
rapid wagon
I've been using pathbuilder
stuck bane
Okay barring any last minute complications today is the day my group wraps up Abomination Vaults
There’s only one encounter left
Nothing else to do but prep for it
sinful gyro
Nice
stuck bane
The party is a Strix fate witch, a Fetchling art thief bomber alchemist, battle Oracle kobold, and an eldritch bloodline sorcerer kitsune
They’ve done really well so far, managed to hit level 11, endeared themselves to the town despite being chaos gremlins, made various underground allies
But somebody may die today
turbid dagger
Which is long lasting charm and suggestion
For that mammoth lords campaign I've been workshopping, the bad guys modus operandi is Dominating people and then Inveigling them while they're defenseless
Inveigle is such a nasty piece of magic
stuck bane
Okay one spoiler for AV 10th floor: ||the irlgaunt hidden boss feels a lot like a big bag of big numbers||
As a warning for other gms
limber comet
So
Is it just me, or do the new dragons personify mythological, folkloric aspects of dragons?
solar storm
Yeah I think that’s a fair assessment
worthy stump
that seems to be a direction Paizo is heading in for creatures in general now, yeah
stuck bane
Oh no the witch critically failed against phantasmal killer
This is the first time I’ve killed a player
warped orbit
they failed both saves?
surreal basin
Also check to see if incap would apply
stuck bane
Do death effects count as incapacitation effects? I’m not finding any text in the tag descriptions on aon
And yeah they failed the follow up save
worthy stump
i think generally not, but iirc the second save on phantasmal killer is explicitly incap?
warped orbit
it does, yeah
Critical Failure The target is so afraid it might die. It must attempt a Fortitude save; if the target fails, it dies. On a successful Fortitude save, the target takes 12d6 mental damage, is fleeing until the end of its next turn, and is frightened 4. This effect has the incapacitation trait.
limber comet
Looking at Magus+
The unarmed hybrid study has time jump, and immediately I'm thinking
Imagine hitting the dragon with "This is a test...wouldn't you agree, Jean Pierre Polnareff?"
frank crystal
So for my PCs abusive dad, I wanna play him like ||the deserter|| from disco Elysium (endgame spoilers)
He’s gonna be a bitter, angry old man who’s otherwise resigned himself to completely leave the world he hates
Finding solace only in being correct in his ideology
limber comet
Cool ass Wardens of Wildwood cover
clever cobalt
When does that come out, next month?
limber comet
When does that come out, next month?
April
Next month is...Sandpoint?
Yeah
Seven Dooms for Sandpoint
limber comet
Wildwood is April to June iirc
clever cobalt
That's weird
limber comet
Huh
You're right
That is weird
I mean I guess it doesn't matter too much
There's already quite a few primal options to make it still viable
Also most people don't play the APs as soon as they come out so it's proooobably fine
Season of Ghosts came out well before Tian Xia, after all
clever cobalt
True
limber comet
There's already quite a few primal options to make it still viable
Barbarian, Druid, Kineticist, and Witch, just off the top of my head
Playtest Animist maybe
Cleric of Gozreh or something
Or Erastil
I think you can do a nature themed spin on every class except maybe Inventor
But if you have Inventors+ you can take the "Organic" alt class feature that replaces explode and overdrive, then you're golden
solar tendon
oh does inventors+ have suggested errata for unstable?
oh shit and impossible lands+,,,
turbid dagger
oh does inventors+ have suggested errata for unstable?
What kind of errata is needed?
solar tendon
uh mostly that like
it's a focus point adjacent system
from before a fairly significant change to how focus spells work
turbid dagger
How would you say unstable should be changed?
limber comet
oh does inventors+ have suggested errata for unstable?
Yes afaik
solar tendon
no idea, that's why I'm interested in a potential errata suggestion lmao
limber comet
turbid dagger
I guess I just don't really see Unstable as needing a change
Though that's neat
Inventor is a class I like a lot but its kind of fiddly
Maybe Inventor+ is worth a look
I liked Barbarians+ mostly
solar tendon
I mean I was fully comfortable playing without any change
limber comet
Both Inventors+ and Witches++ are kino
silver geyser
Invntor was plenty fine on its own.
limber comet
The alternate options for explode and overdrive slap
Also they give you two new innovations
A healing device and a magitek device
solar tendon
I'm also very interested in impossible lands+ because we defnitely felt like there was a lack of content for fleshwarps and the wastes mutant vibe in general making my partner's character
limber comet
Generally, the team+ stuff is really good
solar tendon
it's like. You're a craaaazyyy guy! your options to represent this are darkvision or an unarmed attack, both fairly normal things to get,,,
silver geyser
Low level fleshwarps don't get much, yeah.
limber comet
I don't know much about IL+
I don't have either of the Lost Omens+ books
I only have Archetypes+
solar tendon
that's fair!
definitely intrigued enough to support the devs and find out myself haha
limber comet
I'm just waiting for Oracles++
Which won't be for a while but...y'know
I'm curious how Summoners+ will go down
turbid dagger
it's like. You're a craaaazyyy guy! your options to represent this are darkvisio...
To be fair, a fleshwarp can get like
Darkvision
Tremorsense
Reach unarmed attacks (bad ones but we are talking vibes)
Swim and climb speed
Phatom steed that is its own body mutating
All at the same time
Which is somewhere above a 4 on the weird little dude scale
limber comet
Okay so
solar tendon
but that's just really hard to see at level 1 when you're picking one of them
solar tendon
to represent the body of that person they've had their entire life
turbid dagger
Inventor+ and Barbarian+ both have weird mutant options tho right
(I know barb does)
solar tendon
(potentially)
yeah IL didn't mention fleshwarp stuff on it's page! its okay! was more interested in it's cool archetype thing
limber comet
Inventor+ doesn't necessarily make you a mutant but you can definitely flavor it that way
turbid dagger
Oh I heard mentioned earlier that there was like a biopunk subclass in that
solar tendon
to maybe double down on mutanty stuff
limber comet
If you take the Organics Unconvention, yeah
solar tendon
over time
limber comet
yeah IL didn't mention fleshwarp stuff on it's page! its okay! was more interest...
The mana mutant archetype seems neat yea!
solar tendon
cause there also wasn't an archetype that super stood out to them either they just took duelist because one handed weapons
unborn rain
Oh I heard mentioned earlier that there was like a biopunk subclass in that
I misread this as Boypunk subclass
And imagined a weird like, Guy-themed inventor class.
you add a beer holder for you construct, get a little TV in your construct to watch the footie
limber comet
HELL YEA
warm shadow
I am incredibly into biopunk, so I am certainly looking forward to this!
limber comet
Tl;dr your innovative is made out of organic materials
And the explode/overdrive replacements deal acid damage
There's a replacement that corresponds to every elemental damage type
There's one that's literally based on smog lmao
Your smog clouds deal poison damage
solar tendon
making a diesel/steampunk mech is really cool yeah
feels like my character's nemesis from the clockfighting world should be a steam engineer ngl
dropping hot coals and blasting people with steam
turbid dagger
There's one that's literally based on smog lmao
I'm suddenly reminded of this shitty gas station candy they have on offer at my nearest convenience store
Its called Smog Balls, and on the label in big text underneath the name it says 'FROM THE CREATORS OF TOXIC WASTE'
And every time I see it I just think
'this should be an ad in Cyberpunk 2077'
limber comet
I'm suddenly reminded of this shitty gas station candy they have on offer at my ...
Lmao, real
limber comet
dropping hot coals and blasting people with steam
I mean, Inventor does deal fire damage
It tracks
solar tendon
filling the ring with smoke and making all the spectators cough their guts out like the heel he is
limber comet
I'm a fan of the visual of a gnome/elf inventor literally growing their gadgets like plants
I ALMOST FORGOT MAGUS+ EXISTED
That one's good too
A little less so than the others but still
surreal basin
The only thing about the + set is that it’s
Very very powerful
It tends towards making stuff much stronger than the base game imo
At least for clerics + is what I remember
solar tendon
it's also for better or for worse made by ppl with a lot of pf1e experience
I imagine
in that they're quite into old style archetype design philosophy
which is cool, nothing inherently wrong with that, but it is potentially a taste thing
like giving devise to a cleric subclass for example
warped orbit
that seems fine to me tbh
turbid dagger
Barbarians+ has a lot of like
Bizarre options
There's some solid stuff like 'fists become d8 two handed d10 while raging' or 'stride+shield strike+raise shield' for two actions
And then there's like
this
warped orbit
it's not like Devise is really that much of an upside
solar tendon
oh that's cool
surreal basin
That’s…. Fair but it does feel kinda bad for investigator imo
I guess as long as they don’t also get strategic strike
solar tendon
this is exactly what I mean by it being a taste thing lmao
barren cipher
devise is great if you can expend resources on strikes
warped orbit
I dunno
I personally see Devise more as a hoop that Investigator has to jump through than a big upside
solar tendon
I like that feat a lot
barren cipher
if you have a fat channel smite or something you save a lot in the long run
warped orbit
yes it does have its benefits, but its also a big drain on action econ unless your GM is very lenient with Leads
turbid dagger
Now mind I do like the idea of bow barbarian but
Gweh
I don't like it as a metastrike
That can break your bow on critfail
solar tendon
I think its like
warped orbit
that feat seems weird compared to just... Raging Thrower
solar tendon
idk I think the level 6 nature discourages it being your only attack option
warped orbit
like yeah Bows have a lot more range
barren cipher
that is a terrible feat yeah, raging thrower is right there
turbid dagger
I do get that its meant as like
'well damn how do I get that flying varmint'
But like- yeah raging thrower
warped orbit
but the upsides are pretty minor
solar tendon
raging throw doesn't let me have a big bow and be really strong so I shoot good and the guy is knocked back
this is why the feat is cool
warped orbit
pushing a guy 5 feet is pretty eh for investing a whole other action
thorny berry
I do feel kinda iffy on just getting devise as a class thing just because like
solar tendon
I do think its weird it doesn't have them both at the same MAP though
thorny berry
that's what the archetype system is there for
solar tendon
I think that's a problem with Shove and not with this action tbh
thorny berry
and the 1e thing of every class having a custom archetype to make it like every other class feels a little tiresome
turbid dagger
I like the idea of it for sure
Bowbarian is rad
But the mechanics make me sad
And 'cool concept but the mechanics make me sad' is like terrible poison to me
warped orbit
I do think its weird it doesn't have them both at the same MAP though
I think them saying to use the same modifier as the Strike is implied to also ignore MAP
barren cipher
i mean if it auto shoved with the same degree of success it would still be pretty mid
warped orbit
but unclear
solar tendon
oh
yeah just weird templating kinda
idk the thing is 2 actions to do a strike and a maneuver is pretty Standard
having that include bonus damage and the maneuver is normally impossible to do that way is pretty cool
shove is just kinda. bad
but the feat is specifically worded kinda that if you made shove good the feat doesn't need to change haha
turbid dagger
I've got a bowbarian in my Solasta Crown Of The Magister playthrough thanks to a mod, its pretty cool
It being an instinct rather than a feat would be kind of sexy
Being the Flat Damage Ranged Guy
solar tendon
like if this was a trip instead of a shove I think it would be good no???
warped orbit
and also the general issue is kinda that using a bow on a Barb is rough, because your Dex will be lower
clever cobalt
Hercules Barbarian
solar tendon
ranged knockdown with extra damage?? that's cool as heck
barren cipher
yeah that would almost be worth risking constantly breaking your weapon
solar tendon
like I don't think shove being bad should be fixed by making the metastrikes that include it better. it should simply be worth the action and map in the first place
turbid dagger
Ranged trip tied to a bowshot would absolutely be strong
You could cripple some dudes bigtime at the start of fights
warped orbit
also yeah that crit fail just makes it a real dealbreaker IMO
it's really unneccesary
solar tendon
I would simply Deal with it haha
if you fail or crit fail on a raging throw your thing is gone unless it's returning
turbid dagger
I am a fan of 'str bowman' as an archetype in general
I'm playing a ranged reprisal champion in a game right now, runs around with a Hornbow
limber comet
I would also simply just deal with it
barren cipher
i mean if you hit it’s gone unless you have returning
solar tendon
yeah str bowman is really cool, and I'm a big fan of giant barbarian for golarion barbs
just because amiri is so iconic
and dragonhunter bow style bowman should be a barb option
turbid dagger
I love the fantasy of just some ripped dude with a 500 pound draw bow
When he looses there's a sonic boom and the arrow explodes when it hits
barren cipher
yeah, i think it’s just a massive struggle to implement without breaking everything but still feeling satisfying
turbid dagger
I will say there is something in PF2e already that has the MECHANICS of that, just not the flavor
And its Megaton Strike Weapon Inventor
solar tendon
like. find quick draw and pretty much all the mechanical downsides of that crit fail are gone, but you get to go I am Too Strong for even the Strongest Bows available and that is actually really cool
and cause it's your choice to build into it and not like, a universal rule crit fumble deck teehee
barren cipher
i think he’s more specifically renowned as a clubber and wrestler but he was probably good at everything
limber comet
Hercules was a lot of things
clever cobalt
Fair
turbid dagger
like. find quick draw and pretty much all the mechanical downsides of that crit ...
Well, I mean
By level 6 you'll be runed
So quick draw won't solve ALL your issues
limber comet
He literally choked the Nemean lion to death
solar tendon
suppose that's true
surreal basin
I would probably go wrestler yeah
Probably unarmed expemplar westler but barring that, a fury Barb works
A divine rage would be cool actually
clever cobalt
I know we're getting an unarmed exemplar
surreal basin
Oh yeah for sure
By barring that I just meant
If you don’t wanna count exemplar as a class yet
turbid dagger
.....Bow Exemplar? I seem to recall that being possible
Because that will get you ranged flat damage
Still sad ammo thaumaturgy doesn't allow bowthaum
Eldritch archer thaum.......
solar tendon
I'm kinda cool with how it makes pistol thaum pretty relatively good without bows outclassing it
but that shouldn't be on thaum to fix
turbid dagger
All this is to say-
If thief rogue gets to do dex to damage there should be a class that uses Str for ranged attacks 
solar tendon
if thief gets to do dex to damage there should be a class that gets str to ac
warped orbit
Still sad ammo thaumaturgy doesn't allow bowthaum
Eldritch archer thaum.......
I would allow it personally
turbid dagger
What would you call a bow based barbarian instinct 🤔
I'm thinking Hunter Instinct, or something in that vein
solar tendon
I'd give it flavour about like
taking out flying things
so like Grounder?
but that sounds bad,,,
Hunter is pretty good haha
turbid dagger
The barbarian path in that Solasta mod is called path of the yeoman but that doesn't really Work for an instinct
I kind of want to sketch this up
For my own satisfaction more than anything else lol
limber comet
I don't really find pathfinder barbarian interesting for whatever reason
turbid dagger
I love it mechanically
I find the early feats wicked boring but that lets me archetype
solar tendon
I like giant barbarian
because after so many years of titan mauler being not great and kinda a mess
it's just neat : )
limber comet
I'm a flavor kinda guy
solar tendon
tbf my point here is that big weapon is cool
limber comet
Flavor is super important to me
solar tendon
I just also find big weapon not making you terrible also cool haha
turbid dagger
I love animal barbarian so much
Animal Skin and Predator's Pounce ❤️
I usually take Ape and remove the shapeshifting aspect though
So your just Angry Brawler
Doing heat actions on dudes
solar tendon
animal barbarian is really cool
I play it straight usually (and one of my players did) and the idea of like having a magical power as your main thing without being a spellcaster is really neat
just good at doing a little shift
turbid dagger
That's fair! Shifter vibes are cool
turbid dagger
Hunter is pretty good haha
Also: I'm thinking Hunter Instinct yeah
Make its Anathema centered around like
Aiming to humanely kill creatures you fight, not prolonging their suffering?
I dunno, the anathema may be hard
solar tendon
I like dragon instinct just cause I kinda like the throughline of draconic power sources
sorcer, dragon disciple, etc
I like that as an anathema yeah!
limber comet
Praying that Shifter will come back
turbid dagger
I'm now thinking about it in the context of like
Mammoth Lords
Because I've got them on the brain
With my bow Champion of Skode in that game
solar tendon
which obviously doesn't have to mean "you MUST eat people" but rather as a philosophy
literally and metaphorically
don't waste a life you've taken
turbid dagger
Something to the tune of: Eat what you kill (this does not force you to eat creature that are unhealthy or viewed as untouchable by your culture, such as undead or intelligent beings)
Might be cool indeed
solar tendon
tbf the main thing with using the whole animal is finding a use for even bits you find too icky to eat
in practice a lot of the time
which to some extent is often finding ways to prepare those parts tasty but it's also practices that involve processing material
so you're not greedily taking the one thing you're after and then wasting a bunch of other stuff
surreal basin
Pistol thaum and pistol investigator are both scenarios is which guns have like
A niche that can’t be filled by just using a bow
solar tendon
mm
turbid dagger
While that is true
I feel like undead may not be salvagable