Pathfinder

[frank crystal]

I mean, of the two classes that came out gunslinger and inventor, both are extremely strong

[dull egret]

Spot the Expert-type class player lmao

[rapid wagon]

i wanna try out gunslinger sometime

[frank crystal]

They’re very fun

[rapid wagon]

but i think im currently lining up to play a skeleton kineticist

[surreal basin]

I would not personally describe gunslinger as extremely strong

Neither inventor, really? Like they’re pretty okay

[warped orbit]

Gunslinger is so feast or famine, as guns in general kinda are

[clever cobalt]

They're certainly not the Thaumaturge

[dull egret]

Gunslinger is good unless you have multi-round chamber guns

[surreal basin]

But it feels like they have a lot of concessions that are very noticeable

[warped orbit]

did you crit? you're balling
no crit? can often feel like you barely did anything at all

[dull egret]

without the constant reloads it does get beat by Rogue with a Gun dps wise I've found

[surreal basin]

And yeah, guns in general have that issue

[clever cobalt]

Are they gonna remaster the Gunslinger and Inventor?

[surreal basin]

No

[frank crystal]

I don’t think so

[clever cobalt]

Damn

[surreal basin]

Not unless they change their plans

Because rn they are only doing the 4 remaster books and then moving on

[frank crystal]

Wait I thought it was 2?

[surreal basin]

Or at least haven’t mentioned remastering anything else

[clever cobalt]

Also

[rapid wagon]

oh right so if im playing a skeleton metal kineticist solo metal element; I'd probably be looking at a role of being Front/Midline and ranged/melee DPS?

[clever cobalt]

When are they uhhhhhhh

[surreal basin]

Player core 1 and 2, GM core, Monster Core

[clever cobalt]

Releasing HotW?

[surreal basin]

4 books

[frank crystal]

Ohhhhhh

[clever cobalt]

March right?

[echo briar]

they will do errata if needed, but I'm not sure its needed

[fossil temple]

Starfinder when? After that?

[frank crystal]

I need my Minotaurs

[clever cobalt]

Fall 2024 I believe

[surreal basin]

Starfinder is around a year from now maybe

[frank crystal]

They’re so important for my world

[fossil temple]

yay :3c

[frank crystal]

I need them to be playable

[echo briar]

playtest is this summer

[turbid dagger]

Yeah there's some Conservative Design with like, the combo weapons for sure
I'm a fan of Gunslinger but also I don't think it is The Best at anything
Even in Guns Shooting Fighter is on equal footing
The only thing that really makes me fall out of my chair is stab and blast

[surreal basin]

Howl is coming out in either march or may

[clever cobalt]

I need awakened animals

I need

To be the furry

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Basically like

Guns and Gears was very safe

[fossil temple]

Finally
shotgun that works like a shotgun
In my game
that is not Cyberpunk RED

[warped orbit]

the strongest thing Gunslinger has is IMO Fake Out

[frank crystal]

Ehh, I feel like the action economy gunslinger gives to load 1 weapons pits it far ahead of gun fighter

[fossil temple]

You and me

[surreal basin]

In a way that other stuff isn’t

[fossil temple]

I NEED

[clever cobalt]

Tiefling Awakened Animal

Be the Hellhound

[frank crystal]

All the best ranged fighter feats are generally the ones that let you attack more

[surreal basin]

Specifically

[frank crystal]

Guns, can’t really use those

[surreal basin]

Rage of Elements and….. uh

[dull egret]

Ya

[surreal basin]

The occult one

Fuck

Dark Archive

[dull egret]

if you want another class to do Guns as good as Gunslinger

they need to be multi-capacity guns

[warped orbit]

I do like that Kineticist and now Exemplar and Animist seem to be taking more risks

[clever cobalt]

I enjoyed Dark Archive

Yeah

[dull egret]

Single shots only? gunsling

[fossil temple]

TO GIVE THIS BOY A GOOD ENDING

[warped orbit]

oh yeah and Thaum was also great

[rapid wagon]

what's exemplar all about?

big flashy fighting?

[frank crystal]

Mythical hero shit

[clever cobalt]

Tiefling Awakened Wolf Gunslinger

[surreal basin]

Gunslinger has a gameplay problem that is difficult to describe in that like

[clever cobalt]

Demigod/Mythic Hero stuff

[surreal basin]

It’s probably the most swingy class in the game

[fossil temple]

Wait, Awakened is full furry? I though it would be like
4 legged creature that talks

[surreal basin]

And has very little to protect against that or help with it

[clever cobalt]

It can be either or iirc

[fossil temple]

oooooooh

[rapid wagon]

but they're like... ultimately in line balance wise with other PCs right?

[dull egret]

ya

[rapid wagon]

would be weird to have an actual demigod just like dogwalking the rest of the party

[surreal basin]

Yes they are

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[frank crystal]

Yah

[clever cobalt]

They're Rare but more for thematic reasons than mechanical

They're perfectly balanced

[dull egret]

I was originally going to go full Gunslinger for a campaign but eventually I decided with my GM to just allow me to have gun proficiency given the setting details

[fossil temple]

noice

[frank crystal]

They’re also not demigods

[rapid wagon]

that scool

[frank crystal]

They basically found the fallout of a gods death

[dull egret]

(Further-Forward Each Golarian and he was a Hellknight of a new order that used revolvers)

[frank crystal]

We don’t know which one yet though

[dull egret]

(So I started with a 1895 Nagant that I was pretty willing to spend a few actions to reload after 5 rounds)

[rapid wagon]

when i first saw it, i wanted to play a maori themed spear wielding hero (which in the past would have been a barbarian or a fighter)

the exemplar i mean

[dull egret]

or at least the Chelish equivilent of a 1895 Nagant

[frank crystal]

Fun fact, that’s the class art!

[surreal basin]

I think that the decision to not really make gunslinger like

A DPS class

[clever cobalt]

TBH

My biggest Pathfinder desire is uh

[surreal basin]

Or a damage focused class like rogue I should say

[fossil temple]

That's gonna be Starfinder 2e Soldier

[clever cobalt]

A modern version of Golarion, set between Pathfinder and Starfinder

[frank crystal]

This is the exemplar iconic

[surreal basin]

Is the main disconnect with how gunslingers are imagined

[frank crystal]

I’d kill for that

[rapid wagon]

hell yeah

[frank crystal]

Actually

[clever cobalt]

He's also from the Polynesian expy

[warped orbit]

I mean, tbh I always feel the community assertion that Gunslinger is not a damage class is cope
they are pretty clearly meant to be that, it just kinda didn't work out as well I feel

[dull egret]

having played in a similar premise, it's very fun

[clever cobalt]

Just to make the Maui comparisons even more

[dull egret]

gunned down a loan shark outside a Sandwich Shop in Egorian

[surreal basin]

Oh I mean generally same

[fossil temple]

I really din't get the class idea
Martial suport?

[frank crystal]

Star I want roadfinder so bad

[surreal basin]

No

[dull egret]

the vibes are on point

[surreal basin]

Well

Kinda

[clever cobalt]

Though he got yeeted into northern Avistan after fighting a demon

[clever cobalt]

God same

[surreal basin]

There’s a playtest if you want to go read that

[rapid wagon]

starfinder soldier actually has to sit out of a lot of party activities, because they got their posting and have 2nd watch

[warped orbit]

they can be, it's a bit complicated

[rapid wagon]

their class feature is being made to sit and wait and not do anything for long periods of time

[surreal basin]

They’re kinda like fighter in that they fill several niches depending on build

[rapid wagon]

they're very good at long distance walking

[frank crystal]

I’ve been making a modern fantasy settings for the past like, 6 years

[dull egret]

Ok the last thing I will say before I gotta dip is

Drifter Gunslinger does fuck

[frank crystal]

I need a game for them besides the ones I’m making

[dull egret]

even if it is a weak archetype

[clever cobalt]

I want New Absalom

Absalom but New York

[rapid wagon]

drifter is the one i liked, but i thought it was a "weave in and out with ranged and melee" rather than just "shoot em in melee"

[dull egret]

it absolutely is and I love it

[frank crystal]

Unsleeping City core

[dull egret]

I'm like, I guess a Rogue/Ranger main

[rapid wagon]

cause i love the vibe of axe and pistol time

[dull egret]

that's my jam

that's what I be doing, frequently

[surreal basin]

Honestly combination weapons is my big point to for the evidence of my previously mentioned Coward Design

[clever cobalt]

But yeah Modern Golarion is my ideal setting

I wanna play it so bad

[surreal basin]

Where they were very cautious and gave them a bunch of caveats to prevent from being too good

And now they’re

Uh

Bad

[barren cipher]

i prefer coward design, honestly

[clever cobalt]

Asmodeous is now capitalist

[barren cipher]

it's a lot easier to buff things up

[warped orbit]

I wonder if just eliminating the swap action cost would make combo weapons attractive enough

[surreal basin]

That is fair if you like

But I really don’t

[clever cobalt]

Asmodeous is probably the patron god of GolarionMart

[dull egret]

Overbuff and nerf in testing, if it releases weaker rather than stronger it's easier to tweak IMO

[warped orbit]

since they're already generally worse than their non combo equivalents

[unborn rain]

Asmodeous wouldnt be a capitalist because Capitalism is too chaotic

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Like combo weapons might as well not exist imo

They’re just

[dull egret]

My GM had an intepretation of like, advanced Cheliax as essentially being

[surreal basin]

Significantly worse than the alternatives

[rapid wagon]

isnt that one vault dude the commerce guy?

[warped orbit]

Abadar

[surreal basin]

Like having a gun and a sword and switching between them

[clever cobalt]

Oh yeah

AbadarCorp is a thing in Starfinder

[dull egret]

Allegedly liberalised and more open to capital/freedom in Egorian due to setting changes, but all under the auspices of even greater and more eldritch State Control

[clever cobalt]

They're both a church and megacorp

[dull egret]

which is honestly a good route to go for Egorian at least

[clever cobalt]

I'd imagine Cheliax have splintered by that time period honestly

[dull egret]

Likely yes

[clever cobalt]

They're an empire on the decline

[dull egret]

my GM was running off of essentially a Miracle happening

[rapid wagon]

whats the beef with combination weapons? Too much action economy or something?

[surreal basin]

Anyway to be clear I don’t have any particular opinions on what form of design is objectively better

[dull egret]

a Miracle that made things worse for all involved lmao

[surreal basin]

I just am noting trends in paizos design and how it’s evolved

Cause they’re being much bolder now

[warped orbit]

so each mode of a combo weapon is generally a worse version of a comparable weapon
but it also takes an interact action to swap between the two modes

[surreal basin]

And you still have to reload the gun

Honestly the best way to use combination weapons is the extra crit spec

And just keep it in melee form

[rapid wagon]

mmm, i know nothing about em, but they sounded cool

[warped orbit]

well it basically gives you pick crit spec, at the cost of having to reload

[rapid wagon]

ar there any community "fixes" to make em interesting to use?

[frank crystal]

There’s the gunslinger subclass about them

[warped orbit]

like I said, I kinda wanna try eliminating the swap cost
I think that at least gives them a niche

[frank crystal]

Kinda fixes the action economy by giving you a 1 action step, reload swap action

[dull egret]

The Bloodborne Other melee class right?

[rapid wagon]

i keep thinking about like the old axe and sword pistols of yore

[barren cipher]

you can get like a ranged option without having to pay for runes

[dull egret]

I have played too much total war

[surreal basin]

Personally I think the balance sweet spot is like

[barren cipher]

i think that's the general benefit

[rapid wagon]

combo weapons irl in history were definitely effectively the worst of both worlds as weapons; but generally a gimmick only needs to work once

[surreal basin]

Right around Rage of Elements

[dull egret]

I read Axe-Gun and hear "STRELTSI"

[warped orbit]

axe gun is very much a thing

[surreal basin]

Firebrands is definitely a little too crazy for me

[barren cipher]

oh yeah they are extremely sad and useless

[warped orbit]

it's actually one of the better ones too IIRC

[warped orbit]

Firebrands was definitely too busted

[rapid wagon]

this is historical example

[unborn rain]

Combination weapons were incredibly succesful the spear/rifle (bayonet) is still sometimes used today

[surreal basin]

However I do think that we are past of the era of needing to make stuff suck to use on purpose!

[turbid dagger]

Its tough because the axe isn't finesse

[surreal basin]

Yeah any of the ones where the melee isn’t finesse just ends up being

Uh

Weird

[clever cobalt]

What did Firebrands do

[surreal basin]

Combo weapons just also don’t really fit into anyone’s builds

[warped orbit]

more reason for Gradual Ability Boosts

[clever cobalt]

Did they free the rules

[barren cipher]

firebrands is knackered

[surreal basin]

Oh just added a bunch of unfortunately strong options

[warped orbit]

there's just some really broken feats in there

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[rapid wagon]

here's another historical one lol, from an article about how they were generally awful weapons lol

[barren cipher]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4150

[warped orbit]

1a Stun for example

yep that one

[surreal basin]

Nothing that’s so crazy it like…. Shatters the game or anything imo
Just too generally strong

[warped orbit]

also the double speed Tumble

[frank crystal]

Honestly when I was building my trigger brand gunslinger

[turbid dagger]

Like the non incap stun you can spam yeah
That also makes every enemy in the game you use it on look like a total dickhead

[frank crystal]

I really enjoyed the trigger brand weapon

[surreal basin]

Except that one he’s

*yes

[turbid dagger]

Getting fucking Treerazer to go 'uh um gawrsh can I have your autograph????? 😳 '

[frank crystal]

Being one handed so I get a shield, a finesse melee weapon so I can max dex and get full accuracy, and the stat line isn’t that much worse then the dueling pistol/short sword

[surreal basin]

Thankfully uncommon so you can just

Say no

To a player taking it

[warped orbit]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4151

[surreal basin]

Not that it excuses it

But Yknow

[barren cipher]

yeah i mean

there are lots of uncommon options that are perfectly sensible and balanced

[surreal basin]

At least they aren’t common lol

[warped orbit]

because this basically reads as "you have double speed most of the time"

[surreal basin]

No for sure

I agree

[barren cipher]

and people like to play the things that get published, and with the rest of the system being as it is you generally anticipate things being, you know

[surreal basin]

I’m just saying it’s at least some consolation for GMs that don’t like going above board to ban stuff

[barren cipher]

not like this

[surreal basin]

Yes I am aware

Good lord

I am not saying it’s okay

Sorry, just, yes I agree, I’m just noting that it could be worst at least

Tbh I would be surprised if Firebrands didn’t get its review and balancing process hyper rushed

Cause I think it’s development was right in the middle of the OGL stuff

[rapid wagon]

firebrands are meant to be a revolutionary class?

[surreal basin]

Faction

Not a class

[rapid wagon]

ah ok

[surreal basin]

But yes

[frank crystal]

When did firebrands come out?

[warped orbit]

couple months ago

[frank crystal]

Oh

[turbid dagger]

I'm looking forward to whats next
It feels like Paizo's gonna start doing some cool wild shit

Cultivator Magus, Large Ancestries, NPC abilities in Wild Mimic

[warped orbit]

it does definitely feel like they're more comfortable just doing shit now

[unborn rain]

Cultivator Magus?

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[clever cobalt]

I've said it before but I expect WoI to be a big shakeup in Golarion

Like how Drift Crisis was for Starfinder

[rustic cape]

I think the unionization has honestly portended a lot of positive change

[rapid wagon]

i feel like starfinder is a lot more goofy and zany than pathfinder

[turbid dagger]

Field Guide To Tian Xia is gonna have a new hybrid study for Magus
And the little teaser mentions 'cultivated magic'
If you aren't in the know Cultivation is a particular concept in chinese Xianxia stories

[surreal basin]

It was announced about a year ago

[clever cobalt]

While true that seems besides the point

[surreal basin]

Probably

I kinda hope it’s not like

TOO crazy?

[clever cobalt]

I hope they go full shakeup tbh

Make things interesting

At least for a time; it doesn't need to be permanent shake-ups all around

[surreal basin]

Yeah, I would like the story to move forward but I’m NOT as excited for like

Global Anarchy lmao

[clever cobalt]

Yeah totally

I'm talking more like uhhh

Worldwound 2

[rustic cape]

Frankly I’m not a big fan of the higher-ups at Paizo, and I think a lot of the positive change has the smell of the writing team having more control of the game and setting

[surreal basin]

Also man I just really don’t want them to kill a member of the prismatic Ray

[turbid dagger]

TBH all I really want out of the upcoming Divine Madness is an actual Devil Eidolon for my SOT character

[surreal basin]

It’s cool to have poly rep in a game setting

[clever cobalt]

Unfortunately we won't know

Until it happens

[surreal basin]

Oh I mean for sure

[unborn rain]

Protestant Church split but for Pathfinder I think would happen if they killed one of hte prismatic ray

[turbid dagger]

Or for Demon to not suck, even

[surreal basin]

Yeah I’d

Uh

Hm

It would just suck

[warped orbit]

the divine Eidolons are all a bit sad I feel

[frank crystal]

I have to keep reminding myself you’re talking about the pantheon not the spell

[clever cobalt]

Regardless of who dies, it's gonna be one hell of a shakeup Regardless

They made that clear

[warped orbit]

the prismatic spells are gone now actually

[surreal basin]

I’m still kinda expecting an evil god just cause like

[clever cobalt]

Urgothoa

[surreal basin]

Idk, killing most of the good gods wouldnt

Really do much to the setting imo

The evil gods are typically more active

[clever cobalt]

As always

I'm hoping for some Dark Tapestry stuff

[frank crystal]

Oh they are?

[rustic cape]

Rovagug, Pharasma, and Nethys are my top three picks

[warped orbit]

Rovagug would be pretty funny

[rapid wagon]

so, question, for beginners testing the water on a lot of pf2e stuff, i see yall mentioning some stuff is sad or not very good; how true is that for a largely unoptimized team just feeling shit out?

[surreal basin]

Tbh to some degree I also don’t believe them when they say that nothing they’ve said about starfinder 2e impacts pathfinder

Like, they wouldn’t make the lore between the two that disconnected lmao

Oh the system is like

[clever cobalt]

A rock fell on his head and he died

[warped orbit]

I am still on the Zon Kuthon theory

[surreal basin]

90% very very good

[warped orbit]

Shelyn entering her goth arc would be great

[frank crystal]

I wouldn’t worry to much

[surreal basin]

Yeah just go for it

Don’t worry about it

[frank crystal]

PF2E has very few real unviable stuff

[warped orbit]

it still works fine mostly

[clever cobalt]

We complain but PF2e in general is very well made

[frank crystal]

Like combination weapons are still mostly fine

[surreal basin]

All my bitching is from a veteran of Paizo lmao

[rustic cape]

To be clear, not for plausibility, but for cool story stuff

[surreal basin]

Yeah same

Well

[warped orbit]

but it is in some cases still a noticeable difference to stronger options

[barren cipher]

yeah, you'll manage as long as you, like, try to make good characters

[clever cobalt]

Consider: Asmodeous

All his contracts break

[surreal basin]

My picks for who it’ll be are Lamashtu, Zon-Kuthon, or Iomadae

[warped orbit]

like what I last mentioned there for example, the Divine Eidolons

[clever cobalt]

In a single moment

[barren cipher]

if you go 'haha i'll have 14 strength on this polearm fighter' you're going to have a terrible time obviously

[frank crystal]

The only thing I’d say to watch out for is that when doing the starting stat spread, make sure they put at least a 16 in their main attacking stat

[rapid wagon]

ok neat, im more veteran than a number of hte upcoming group, but also have never done 2e before, and ofc a lot of them will choose on broad strokes rather than initmate mechanical knowledge

[surreal basin]

If it’s a good god iomadae makes sense to me

[warped orbit]

you can still make a decent character with say a Demon Eidolon

[frank crystal]

It’s the only thing that they may do that will genuinely gimp them

[rapid wagon]

like vibes, loose roles, etc

[barren cipher]

notable exception: alchemist

[warped orbit]

but picking Plant instead for example will often be stronger

[surreal basin]

It would be a huge shake up for the setting, but since the crusades are over and tar baphon is just out, her dying wouldn’t end the world

[rustic cape]

Rovagug: All of the divine alliances that revolve around keeping Rovagug contained suddenly break down, leading to a War of Immortals

[clever cobalt]

Or to a lesser extent Thaumaturge

[surreal basin]

Seems like the perfect target if you wanna shock people

[frank crystal]

I had a player get 14 strength for their magus because they wanted a 14 wisdom for an archetype that they exclusively wanted to teleport a weapon in their hands

[barren cipher]

i feel like i should bold that, unoptimised alchemist can be a bit of a drag

[rapid wagon]

for example, I'm going metal kineticist for thematic reasons moreso than mechanical ones, but im reasonably confident ill still pull my weight at the table

[surreal basin]

But don’t wanna just be a dickhead

[frank crystal]

Needless to say they missed nearly every attack that game

[warped orbit]

as long as you max out your key attribute and/or attack stat, it works fine mostly

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah Kineticist is just good

Like all around

Alchemist is the class that was overall in biggest need of the remaster

And dear lord I hope they get it right this time

[warped orbit]

I really wanna see how PC2 Alchi looks

[rapid wagon]

we got no alchemists lined up i think

[warped orbit]

and hope they get some more substantial changes

[surreal basin]

I have had the thought of opening player core 2 and the alchemist page is just blank

[rustic cape]

Nethys: allows himself to be killed for shits and giggles, a Dunkelzahn’s Will situation is set off, leading to a War of Immortals

[surreal basin]

Yeah the more I think about it

Iomadae or Rovugug

Would be the most likely deaths to lead to war

[rapid wagon]

So far its
Rogue (probably, they want to play an assassin)
Kineticist
Champion
Most likely Thaumaturge
?????

[clever cobalt]

How would Rovugog die though

[surreal basin]

I have no idea

[rustic cape]

Plot magic

[surreal basin]

That’s the part that makes him kinda unlikely lol

[frank crystal]

Honestly I don’t think alchemist needs buffs per say, just higher impact

[rapid wagon]

so rn no one knows how rovagug would or could die, which is why it makes it interesting if the did

[surreal basin]

Buyuuut

[rapid wagon]

but yeah

[barren cipher]

stabbed

[clever cobalt]

Did they just open the portal to the Rovugug dimension and he's just dead inexplicably

[frank crystal]

Like it’s strong just in a very passive way

[rapid wagon]

none of hte gods could kill rovagug in the past

not even all together

[surreal basin]

They said that part of the WOI will be played in an AP

[frank crystal]

You look at barbarian and they’re strong for a very obvious reason

They hit hard

[warped orbit]

that's a fine party
Champ gives you some healing, and if the Rogue or someone else picks up some Medicine you should be golden

[surreal basin]

That’s upcoming

[frank crystal]

Alchemist strength comes from a lot more passive means

[rapid wagon]

i think the last one is LIKELY to be a martial, like a fighter

he likes simple classes

[surreal basin]

They haven’t said to what extent but I imagine it’ll involve ya boi exploding

[frank crystal]

Passive increases, passive items, downtime options

[rustic cape]

Pharasma: Scramble for the throne and control of the afterlife, leading to a War of Immortals

[warped orbit]

my experience so far is that martials are much easier to do well with without experience

[clever cobalt]

Putting the mortal in immortal

[rapid wagon]

pharasma dying would be huge for the setting tbh, shes the oldest god iirc

[warped orbit]

casters and Alchemist you really need to know what you're doing IMO

[surreal basin]

Pharasma would maybe be too much of a shakeup for Paizo lmao

[clever cobalt]

(Alternatively, several immortals are born who can't die because Pharasma got ganked)

[surreal basin]

So much of the cosmos would like

Need to be changed

So much of it relies on her doing her job lmao

[clever cobalt]

Yeah Pharasma would be a huge deal

[rustic cape]

Yissss

[clever cobalt]

Like

[rapid wagon]

Oh right, and potentially a sorcerer, thats the player im most concerne about tbh, because they don't know what htey're doing

sry about ping

[clever cobalt]

Arguably the biggest imo

[surreal basin]

Also like

I will admit

[barren cipher]

sorcerer is a pretty broad class unfortunately

[warped orbit]

do you know what Bloodline they're looking at?

[surreal basin]

Iomadae is partially a pick for me because I do not like her

[rapid wagon]

the player who might be a sorc is the kind who just wants to play complex looking classes but doesn't actually learn to play them much

nah not yet

we're still finalizing picks for the most part

[warped orbit]

because that also changes things a lot

[barren cipher]

a bard would absolutely crush in that party though

[surreal basin]

Are you starting at level one?

[rapid wagon]

i suspect something evil? since we're an evil party

yeah

[rustic cape]

I like Iomedae entirely because of the video game

[rapid wagon]

its gonna be a blood lords campaign

[barren cipher]

(or in any party really)

[warped orbit]

with that many buff targets, yeah definitely

[surreal basin]

A sorcerer at level one would be pretty easy to get to grips with

Oh Jesus

[rapid wagon]

ok cool

dats why i am skeleton

the champ is gonna be a tyrant

[surreal basin]

Bloodlords will be an interesting intro lol

[rapid wagon]

xD

[surreal basin]

Oh, so

[rapid wagon]

hopefully a good time will be had

[surreal basin]

Thing your tyrant should know

And maybe should be brought up the GM as a change

Their reaction has the mental trait

Which means it doesn’t work on like

Zombies

[rapid wagon]

ooo

tyty

ill bring that up

[surreal basin]

It’s also the only champion reaction that is like that

And will probably get changed in the remaster IMO but that’s speculation

[turbid dagger]

Had to step away but Asmodeus dying would be wild
Hell gets mad pissed and invades Elysium or something, succession crisis

[warped orbit]

you do at least deal with not that many mindless undead after the start from what I've heard

so it's probably okay

[surreal basin]

I’ve played the whole thing and it’s a toss up

[rapid wagon]

i wonder if asmodeus dying would like default on his twisted web of deals and contracts

[surreal basin]

It wouldn’t be a huge deal but it might be annoying

Tbh I’m interested in who they remove cause like

There’s no way they’re just gonna leave a gaping hole in the domains the core dieties cover

But they’ve SAID arazni isn’t taking up the same domains

Also

Extremely happy Arazni is gonna be core

Fucking sick ass god

[warped orbit]

yeah I love that she's getting recognition

[clever cobalt]

She deserves it

[warped orbit]

her PF2 design is also so good

[rapid wagon]

shes had a long ass journey

[surreal basin]

Tbh

If iomadae survives

That’ll be interesting

Since she’s Aroden’s direct replacement

And Arazni has to have feelings about that

[rapid wagon]

im actually currently mid carrion crown with a iomedaen paladin (its going on hold for blood lords)

[turbid dagger]

Isn't she just 'lady in hood who looks a lil pissed and/or sad'

[warped orbit]

yes, but I still think she looks great personally

[surreal basin]

I like the flower theming

[turbid dagger]

Oh the art I saw was lamer

[surreal basin]

Were it not a campaign where you kinda had to be loyal to geb

I would’ve played a deep cover Arazni worshipper in bloodlords

[warped orbit]

her style is very colorful now, and especially together with the flower theming I think that's really cool

[rapid wagon]

theoretically i could play a pharasman undercover that didn't get caught, in the carter's guild; but also i think part of hte fun might be playing into the baseline of the adventure

though i think atm my character is a thematically listless/apathetic skeleton with powers who has debts

[surreal basin]

Unfortunately my first exposure to her was the actual WOTR ap

[turbid dagger]

This is what I was thinking of

[surreal basin]

Which I know is non-canon but uh

[rapid wagon]

and my gm is gonna reveal elements of who i was

[surreal basin]

First impressions are everything lmao

[turbid dagger]

Game iomedae is cool yeah
It's why I'm an iomedae enjoyer
(Also weapon surge)

[rapid wagon]

effectively my skeleton kineticist worked as a carter as just someway to stay useful while he figured stuff out. I think maybe he has the very buds of ambition being stoked

[rustic cape]

The thing is that in the vidya she’s a bit overcautious, but ultimately trusts your decisions even if they don’t mirror her own way of doing things, and comes across as wise and caring

Which is what she should be

A warrior goddess of order and righteousness

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Fair

Just a real combo of things

[rapid wagon]

my iomedaen paladin is resoundingly not played as some sort of iomedaen extremist

[surreal basin]

I’m sure in another world I’d like her more lol

I don’t hate her either I’m just like

😐

[rustic cape]

1E honestly just suffered a lot from its treating alignment mostly as a group of metaphysically defined factions

[surreal basin]

Clearly Cayden is gonna die so that two core gods don’t have the same favored weapon

[rustic cape]

You didn’t have to be good if you were Good

[rapid wagon]

cayden dying would be the easy way i think

which dooooes make it less interesting

cayden dies but he actually fakes it like metroman

so he can stop being a god

[surreal basin]

I love that

They had to clarify

That they aren’t gonna bring aroden back just to kill him again

[rapid wagon]

hahaha

[warped orbit]

clearly this means Aroden comes back to be the BBEG

so we can properly punch him in the face

[charred patrol]

simply bring him back just to kill him again, but not have that one count for the one that's dying

[surreal basin]

Tbh I don’t think they’re ever ever gonna reveal what the fuck happened to him

[warped orbit]

probably not no

[rapid wagon]

a lot of my interest in against the aeon throne was literally its connection to aroden and thus the connection to iomedae and my first paladin in 1e lol

the connection isn't like "oh he's there" but just like

the cultural connection n stuff

but i want to play it more than run it

[surreal basin]

My first played AP being fucking Exctinction Curse did not

Give me a good opinion

Of aroden

[frank crystal]

I’m not gonna lie to you Emily

I don’t believe you lol

[rapid wagon]

oh did aroden show up in extinction curse

[surreal basin]

Fair enough

[rapid wagon]

or was it more like

a legacy thing

[surreal basin]

Uhhh

Legacy thing

[warped orbit]

he's kinda the reason for the whole plot more or less

by fucking things up, as usual

[surreal basin]

||the entire thing is kicked off by him carelessly condemning a civilization to death, and then later in the AP you go to his holy valley and there’s just… a bunch of stuff there that’s fucked up, like basically slavery||

[rapid wagon]

ahh i see i see

yeah i just think its funny that the azlanti empire is just in space in the future

instead of gone

and they're kinda dicks

[warped orbit]

Aroden caused a lot of problems

[frank crystal]

Also they’re atlantis

[surreal basin]

Doesn’t help that he’s also the god of imperialism

[rapid wagon]

yeah him being the imperialism god is REALLY in line with the azlanti star empire

being the way it is

[warped orbit]

I love the memes about Aroden though

[frank crystal]

Aroden just being a petty asshole would be extremely funny

Like all that greater good shit?

None of it was true

He just think it’s funny

[rapid wagon]

aroden really does vibe with like silver age comic books

[silver geyser]

Oh, just one you say? :p

[rapid wagon]

but you see, aroden fought tar baphon and saved everything; what don't look over there at his holy places

honestly my Paladin is probably indoctrinated a bit in favor of aroden as iomedae's predecessor

probably buys into the myth

[frank crystal]

Aroden and Iomedae

[warped orbit]

also definitely do not look over at the Gravelands

[surreal basin]

Or at the xulgaths

[warped orbit]

or at the tree he blew up in Arcadia when he died

[rapid wagon]

im pretty sure they just didn't teach that in iomedaen temple boarding school

"what tree?"

[surreal basin]

Or at Arazni being a Lich queen happening on his watch

[warped orbit]

yeaaaah

[surreal basin]

WHILE SHE WAS HIS HERALD

[rapid wagon]

that one iirc, get told as if its all tar baphon's villainy and not aroden's fault at all blah blah blah;

[trail nova]

4e was light armor, but it was also leaning a lot harder into the spirit-chaneller stuff

[rapid wagon]

and the knights of ozem treat it as such

[warped orbit]

the Knights of Ozem fucked up so bad

[rapid wagon]

knights of ozem also prolly think trying to kill arazni is doin her a favor

[surreal basin]

I won’t lie arazni’s fate is like

Also part of my beef with iomadae

Like girl clean up after your boss a little

Fuck

[rapid wagon]

yeah the knights of ozem absolutely fucked themselves over; like sticking a stick into their bicycle spokes

and then going "FUCKING TAR BAPHON"

as they flip over

[warped orbit]

Arazni is still incredibly mad at them

for good reason

[rapid wagon]

with good reason tbf

yeah

lol

[surreal basin]

I’d love a short story

Of her showing up at their base

“HEY GUYS”

“WHATCHA UP TO”

[rapid wagon]

has there been a meet up between arazni and iomedae in modern stories?

Arazni is both resentful of her successor Iomedae for having reached divinity so successfully and easily, and proud of her for having won the Shining Crusade, and recognises that none should be subjected to her ordeals.

I like how her opinion of Iomedae is a bit nuanced

would be neat for even a brief crossing of paths

[warped orbit]

she has mellowed out a good bit, yeah
though she is still quite unforgiving of the people who have personally wronged her

especially with alignment gone now, she's a pretty great god thematically I think

[rapid wagon]

the vibe i get is that imoedae would be more aggro towards arazni on account of her nature, and arazni still holds on to some resentment but also, in some ways, still favors iomedae as a like... a kindred spirit; even if a gulf of experience and events stand between them

[turbid dagger]

I don't think Iomedae would particular mind Arazni
Undead stuff isn't even in her edicts or anathema
Also depending on how we interpret this there's something in her Anathema that seems key:

[warped orbit]

in a way Iomedae and Arazni are already cooperating via the Knights of Lastwall

[rapid wagon]

i imagine her opposition to undead and undeath is adjacent to her domains; but also ties strongly into her historical association as directly opposing tar baphon and leading the shining crusade

[turbid dagger]

Going 'ew stinky' to Arazni cuz she's an undead goddess does not seem like Her Way

[warped orbit]

since Arazni is the one giving power to the Crimson Reclaimers

[solar tendon]

kinda like

two people who both dated the same toxic person

[rapid wagon]

ha

yeah

[solar tendon]

a lot of emotions there

[thorny berry]

wait did I miss my chance to complain about barbarian designs

because my searing hot take is that 'rage' becoming their baked-in Thing mechanically and thematically across d20 systems sucked

I feel like if your barbarian class design doesn't particularly enable recreating Conan The Barbarian there has been a significant failing somewhere along the way

[rapid wagon]

what was their thing before?

[thorny berry]

idk I think that's always been their thing

in d20 systems anyway

[rustic cape]

I mean, I gotta ask, what should be their mechanical niche, if not rage?

Bonus challenge: it can’t be something Fighter already does

[thorny berry]

dungeon world's thing was pretty intriguing, if obviously designed around a more roleplay-forward system and not particularly suited to pf2 and suchlike

[turbid dagger]

Yeah that's why my take is that Barbarian ought to get taken out of the 'rage class' with a rename, not the other way around

[thorny berry]

honestly probably much of what rage does but without saying 'and then I go into rage' first

and kinda pointlessly locking out a bunch of concentration options or w/e

[solar tendon]

barbarian is the like

altered state class

[rapid wagon]

i feel like barbarian can map pretty easily onto a conan stan though

conan the barbarian pretty much never wore armor

[solar tendon]

it's why inventor is mechanically seen as a barbarian spin

[rapid wagon]

or if he did, never protecting most of his body

[rustic cape]

No, he wore plate when he could in the books

[rapid wagon]

ahh ok

im thinking about move conan

[turbid dagger]

We had this same convo like an hour ago

[rustic cape]

I mean really if I wanted to do Conan I’d do a fighter with Free Archetype Rogue

[thorny berry]

oop

[rapid wagon]

i think conan lorewise maps pretty strongly onto fighter right?

i think movie conan can probably go barb easily enough

[rustic cape]

For sure

[rapid wagon]

you know honestly

lore conan could also map ranger

a bit

[dull egret]

Oh god the Barbarian talk is still happening

what have I done

[rapid wagon]

oh nah it stopped then came back

we talke about aroden, arazni, and iomedae a bunch in between

[turbid dagger]

See here

[dull egret]

it is the Revenant Design Topic

[barren cipher]

conan doesn't map well onto fighter because of, like

he's a protagonist ultimately

[dull egret]

It all comes back to that damn hyperborean....

[rapid wagon]

fighters can be protagonists

imo

fighters don't have to be goon coded

[dull egret]

Fighters only arent protagonists in RPGs because other classes have more world-shattering abilities

[barren cipher]

fighters in d&d games don't get the universal protagonist powers that conan does

[dull egret]

Ya

[barren cipher]

he has stats by the bucket

[dull egret]

a Greek Hero wins off of being cunning or Bullshit but fighters, by and large, are the only class that's really considered

"Just A Guy With Sword"

[barren cipher]

conan is not a character that makes sacrifices

[rustic cape]

Conan’s definitely free archetype if not outright dual class

[warped orbit]

Conan is a Fighter/Rogue dual

[rapid wagon]

conan fighter monk lessgo

[rustic cape]

Aye

[dull egret]

As someone who tends to play in the "Martials that are mostly Some Guy" space a lot (Fighters/Rangers/Rogues and classes that branch off of their particular styles) it's a matter of stories/module design forgetting that being good at fighting/tactics can be a heroic factor unto itself

rather than having some kind of magic or special talent

[warped orbit]

tbh, I would generally say Fighters are actually incredibly protagonist coded

[dull egret]

Very much so

[barren cipher]

narratively sure

[rapid wagon]

same

[barren cipher]

but the mechanical support is not all that great

[turbid dagger]

TBH I think Barbarian is fine as a class, mechanically and thematically
Who has actually like
Read the Conan books
I sure haven't and don't plan too
I bet he broods a lot, swings his sword once or twice, then possibly bangs a lady
Snakes, at some point
I'm not particularly interested in any inspo he may have had at one point for the barb archetype as it exists now

[dull egret]

A lot of the weird "Primal Cunning" stuff in Barb is from him

I feel anyway

[rapid wagon]

my usual takes for him are that he is a superlative physical specimen, who has trained for years with the blade; and has exceptional traversal skills. Usually used to sneak from weird angles to leap in and beat/cut the shit out of someone

[dull egret]

which the phrase "primal cunning" already gives me an irksome energy

[barren cipher]

i mean it's incredibly racist from the start to the finish

i don't recommend them as a read

[rapid wagon]

im not familiar with conan having magical powers beyond being real good at fighting good

[barren cipher]

fafhrd and the grey mouser is much better

[dull egret]

honestly as much as I'll rag on the pure martials being rough mechanically I still love playing them solely because my GMs have been very kind in giving me ways to make them Cool

[rapid wagon]

i think the idea that they don't have cool shit is kind ofa personal taste thing

[dull egret]

my favourite 5e campaign was Rime of the Frostmaiden because my Fighter/Ranger by the end was the most dangerous party member by virtue of just The Face of the Gang

[turbid dagger]

Eh? Oh man is this gonna become some martial caster thing

[dull egret]

Nope

he barely used spells

[rapid wagon]

thats not what namoleon meant i think

[barren cipher]

i mean pathfinder 2e is the least about that i'd say

[dull egret]

He had basic Ranger spells (level 1s only), and Rune Knight

[turbid dagger]

No I mean
The thing about martials being bad

[rapid wagon]

yeah

[warped orbit]

this one is always funny to me
because it's one of those book series that almost no one knows about nowadays, but it's one of the most singularly most influential ones through D&D

[dull egret]

My "martials bad" take is "martials not versatile."

You could stand and unfold the enemy or Create Pit them

[rapid wagon]

i think the thing about "martials have nothing special for them" is a taste thing and no at all objective

[dull egret]

They've got special shit it's just outclassed by what other classes can do plus more versatility

[rapid wagon]

I don't know that i agree there, ultimately, but i don't care to make it a thing

[dull egret]

Nah that's fair

[barren cipher]

fighters aren't that versatile except in the area of dismantling people, where they are extremely versatile - outside that they get one thing of their choice pretty much

[dull egret]

I can see the argument from either end I just lean more to the negative side

[barren cipher]

other martials are more versatile but generally speaking worse in the broad category of ripping people's arms off

[dull egret]

I still play almost purely martials or half-martials lol

[turbid dagger]

Alright its not effecting me tons but for the sake of this channel's health I'm X carding this
We can stop talking about how Barbarians are bad and we NEED to not start talking about how martials suck
For the love of god do any other topic

[dull egret]

I will talk about how martials good

Ranged Builds in PF do fuck

[clever cobalt]

I will talk about uh

Gnolls

[dull egret]

significantly harder than 5e

[clever cobalt]

Gnolls are cool

[warped orbit]

tbh, especially in PF2 martials are really not bad

[barren cipher]

yeah i thought we were talking about how they were good actually

[rapid wagon]

whats the sorcerers defining shtick in pf2e?

[dull egret]

Genuinely our Hell's Rebels GM lives in fear of the party ranger

[warped orbit]

getting to choose their spell list through bloodline, and also having lots of slots

[barren cipher]

yeah, really the individual bloodlines are extremely defining

[warped orbit]

and some focus spells of varying quality

[rapid wagon]

so they are hashtag "many spells, but no spellbook?"

[barren cipher]

no more spells than a wizard really

wizards are ahead pre-remaster, not sure what they look like now

[dull egret]

ya the More Spells thing was 1e

which tbh is a niche I really like actually

I miss it

[warped orbit]

Wizards have 1 highest level slot more, if they are specialists

[rapid wagon]

i guess teh other way to ask is, if I'm picking, why am I picking sorc over a wizard, or vive virsa

this can include flavor stuff

[barren cipher]

do you want to be popular or a nerd?

[rapid wagon]

lol

[dull egret]

Wizards use the Arcane list exclusively

[turbid dagger]

Do you like Spontaneous or Prep more

[dull egret]

Sorcerers can be any list

[warped orbit]

Sorcerers are really strong
spontaneous prep is not that much of a downside really

[barren cipher]

yeah it's fine really, you're a bit less able to prepare ahead

[warped orbit]

and their feats are overall a bit better than Wizards IMO

[barren cipher]

or should i say preparing ahead costs money

[warped orbit]

you want to get scrolls for niche case spells anyway

so it's fine

it does mean there is a larger focus on choosing the right spells though

[dull egret]

scrolls have now reminded me of a great sadness

one of my GMs was going to run a FFXIV themed game

[warped orbit]

also the focus spells on some bloodlines are really good

[barren cipher]

retraining is pretty readily available anyway

[turbid dagger]

I'm not a huge caster expert but I figure like
Spont probably wants to focus on 'general purpose' spells they can spam out that are broadly applicable to most situations
While prep can be like 'hm yes, seems we will be fighting Cheese Beasts, I will be sure to prepare 3 castings of Cheese To Ashes'

[dull egret]

it didn't get off the ground due to the lorebooks Sucking but I realised Thaumaturge Scroll Esoteric could absolutely just make a Blue Mage

[rapid wagon]

so you're getting broadly similar packages, but with some differing themes and different customization options?

i honestly like thaumaturge as a bag of tricks class that doesn't actually need you to bring a whole bag of tricks

[warped orbit]

overall yes mostly, but that's just a general consequence of casters being primarily defined by their casting tradition

[rapid wagon]

cause im the player who would, in the past, stock up on a whole bag of tricks

and effectively get punished for it lol

because most are "just in case" tricks

[warped orbit]

an Arcane Sorcerer and a Wizard will be different in some ways, but they won't be that different

[turbid dagger]

Thaum is great for playing a character whose ultra prepared without actually having to go through the agony of buying a bunch of Anti-Cheese Beast Oils yeah

[rapid wagon]

is thaum/ranger a thing at all

or what would that be beneficial for

[barren cipher]

the dual class would be quite good for doing buckets of single target damage i guess

[rapid wagon]

"wilderness guy with a lot of preparation" is the vibe im thinking of

[dull egret]

it would be more like

"Wilderness guy into a lot of Occult Shit too"

[turbid dagger]

Sorta? Ranger has some good support feats, some of which proc off RK which you'll be doing oodles of

[dull egret]

living in the kinda woods Lovecraft be writing

[rapid wagon]

"I'm a woodsman, the woods just happen to be inflicted with eldritch entropy"

[barren cipher]

the normal multiclass i don't think has so much synergy

[dull egret]

synergy wise ya it's ass

but the flavour

is downright umami if done right

[barren cipher]

yeah, you'd just play a thaum with nature proficiency

[rapid wagon]

"hold on i got something for this"

[barren cipher]

you don't need the ranger mechanics really, your action economy sucks anyway iirc

[turbid dagger]

Better keep an eye out for tracks fucko

[warped orbit]

Exploit/Intensify already takes up a lot of actions yeah

tossing Prey into that mix makes it even harder

[rapid wagon]

oh i suppose yeah

i could just shape my wilderness stuff

by being skilled in nature and survival

[dull egret]

How is 2e ranger honestly

[rapid wagon]

and outfitting myself with a bow and some warm clothes/furs

[dull egret]

I've yet to play it, but it removes spells, thus making me intrigued in it

[rapid wagon]

maybe a hand axe

[warped orbit]

Ranger is pretty good

[dull egret]

TERROR

THEY MADE IT A FEAT

[turbid dagger]

Its the martial I have the least Knowhow about but its pretty good
My first time GMing PF2e we had a str flurry ranger who did awful shit with a pair of axes

Its a focus spell

[rapid wagon]

im guessing i can furtehr make that wildrenss thaumaturgy dude/narrative prepared ranger with the feats that come with survival and nature?

[turbid dagger]

2 status to damage per damage die, 1/round

[barren cipher]

it's also not very scary

it's good, but not that good

[warped orbit]

it's basically Lead Blades/whatever the bow one was called as a focus spell

[dull egret]

Gravity Bow lol

I know of it because of the Hell's Rebels game

our ranger player has informed me of how haunted those spells are

[warped orbit]

it's good, because it's just free damage basically

[dull egret]

mostly by one-shotting bosses

[warped orbit]

but nothing crazy

[barren cipher]

yeah skill and proficiency and such are great ways to express theme outside class

[dull egret]

I still really like Gravity Weapon's flavour

[turbid dagger]

Isn't the Big Bow Spell in 1e Hurricane Bow

[dull egret]

that's

wait what the fuck

[turbid dagger]

Oh thats game only how weird

As in CRPG only

[dull egret]

did they have to change the name of Gravity bow for the game?

what the fuck?

[warped orbit]

your choice of Hunter's Edge is basically do you want to make one attack with extra damage, or do you want to make a bazillion attacks with less MAP

[turbid dagger]

Why in gods nae did they make gravity bow into hurricane bow for the crpg lmao

[warped orbit]

and Outwit is also there I guess

[dull egret]

Oh wait

I know why

the CRPG doesn't have oversized weapons

[warped orbit]

it does actually

[dull egret]

Gravity Bow was explicitly a siz-

ok nvm then lmao

[turbid dagger]

The effect is the same yeah

Did they think gravity wasn't fantasy enough

[warped orbit]

just not normally available that much

[dull egret]

Gravity Bow does my my GM cry in 1e

[warped orbit]

there's a few magical oversized weapons scattered through the CRPGs
and it also still works with Enlarge and the weapon spells

[turbid dagger]

But yeah the Edges are good
Flurry is Troublesome
Precision is cool, especially if you do companion
Outwit has some fans but I feel like they're coping a very small amount

[warped orbit]

Outwit has its uses, but it's just... difficult to make use of

[turbid dagger]

I guess if you take Sentinel you can be a weird tank

[dull egret]

Precision is my usual sort of jam

I'm a 5e Ranger enjoyer it's a similar sandwich

[turbid dagger]

The big thing with precision is that companions also benefit from your Edge
So you can double up on procs

[warped orbit]

Precision is more flexible

Flurry kinda dominates your build

[barren cipher]

if you like 5e ranger, starlit span magus is pretty good

[warped orbit]

because you really want to build around it

if you're not making 3+ attacks per turn, Flurry isn't doing that much for you

[dull egret]

Oh hey that's where they moved Eldritch Archer

[barren cipher]

or eldritch archer archetype i guess is not bad too

[warped orbit]

that actually still exists too 😛

[dull egret]

speaking of FUCKED UP RANGED BUILDS

oh god

not again-

[warped orbit]

it's an archetype

[barren cipher]

starlit span leans more wizard though

[dull egret]

alright Story Time: I nearly made a 1e Eldirtch Archer out of a character when I was handed a revolver in a game

[warped orbit]

I'm using it on my Investigator currently (homebrewed slightly to allow me to use it with a gun)

[dull egret]

because I had realised that with Scorching Ray you'd make like

5 attacks at level 7?

All touch

ah Eldritch Archer is now properly Bow Only

a sadness but understandable

[surreal basin]

Outwit is just????

“So we have two offensively focused subclasses that define the play style of the character and then uhhh some random shit!”

I guess it’s for the recall knowledge monster Hunter ranger?

[dull egret]

I get the method but the execution is lackluster

it's meant for the Guile Hero kind of ranger

[turbid dagger]

Eldritch archer dedication is, starlit span magus is not

[dull egret]

"I win by knowing how you Suck and hitting that button repeatedly"

[warped orbit]

I did get an Eldritch Shot crit a while ago that was like 112 damage or something
which was kinda hilarious overkill because the target was a goober

[dull egret]

recall knowledge, better skills, and AC only really matters to that if the monster can be demoralized, deceived, or kills by hitting you lol

[surreal basin]

Outwit is at least viable I guess with how recall knowledge works

[dull egret]

I dunno how you'd improve it though

[turbid dagger]

You can Gun strike as you please with starlit span

[dull egret]

noted

[warped orbit]

you definitely can do gun Magus, but it's rough

Magus action econ is already really strained

putting reloads in there gets tough

though Magus+ has a gun Hybrid Study I think

[turbid dagger]

That's why you take barricade buster

[dull egret]

I really should do a more default martial in 2e

the only character I've played was a gun rogue in a slightly more modern setting so

reloading was more of a reasonable balance factor

[turbid dagger]

2e fighter kicks ass
The hobgoblin bastard sword fighter I'm playing in Kingmaker is possibly my fave TTRPG character ever

Sword Swingman is, astonishingly, really cool for once

[warped orbit]

Fighter does slap yeah
I played a Halfling Fighter in a Gravelands game, using a meteor hammer

[rapid wagon]

oh, how similar is magus in 2e to 1e? I imagine its still all around being a spellsword right?

[dull egret]

fighters make me very happy in 2e

[warped orbit]

Knoackdown, Trip, and having reach give you so much bullying potential

[dull egret]

It was my first pick until I was given the promise of a 1895 Nagant

(I am very easy to bribe as a player)

[warped orbit]

because being Prone sucks, but if they stand up or try to get away I will slap them

[dull egret]

good

in 5e I always end up playing Bully Builds if I'm a strength character

people sleep on the value of grabbing someone by the face and shoving them over before actually doing damage

[warped orbit]

2h or freehand Fighter has lots of stuff for that

[dull egret]

ok

important question

natively, does PF2e support doing "hand requiring moves" with your 2h offhand

[warped orbit]

well, sort of but not really no

you can release your second hand, and just hold the weapon in the other

[turbid dagger]

I think it's kind of an inverse now
In 1e you spammed out sword strikes with spell combat but now magus is all about The One Hit
You either hit Spellstrike and kill, or miss and cry

[warped orbit]

so you have a free hand

but putting that hand back to your 2h grip requires an Interact action

[dull egret]

ah

[warped orbit]

the closest for that is probably using a onehanded weapon and using Dual Handed Assault

[dull egret]

Longsword gaming, perhaps...

[turbid dagger]

For free hand stuff with two hand damage, look up Dual Handed Assault yeah

[dull egret]

tbh I don't mind a dps loss in exchange for action economy / tactics

[turbid dagger]

Let's you snap to a two-handed grip for one strike then go back to one

[warped orbit]

Bastard Sword is a common pick for that

[dull egret]

I'm the bozo who uses longswords/battle axes shieldless

[turbid dagger]

I think free hand fighter is probably the coolest way to do it

[warped orbit]

gives you the flexibility of free hand maneuvers, but also lets you go in for a big swing when you need to

[turbid dagger]

You get snagging strike, trips with AoO, dueling parry, so on

[dull egret]

oh I fucking love this

this fucks

[warped orbit]

free hand got a small buff in the Remaster too
since any free hand maneuvers have agile now

[solar thorn]

Free hand fighter with dual hand assault seems so fucking sick flavorwise

[dull egret]

personally my favourite Fighter fantasy is the one-handed full weapon

[solar thorn]

Going for a feint or grab and just snapping your hand on the grip for an insane downward swing is some samurai shit

[dull egret]

I don't like dual wielding, two-handed weapons tend to be a little impractical half the time

One hander that's got two handed options is perfect

[rapid wagon]

historically people agreed, with the hand-and-a-half style sword being popular for a fair bit

[warped orbit]

appropriately enough, the Katana is also a good option for it 😛

trades a bit of raw damage for deadly

[turbid dagger]

💯
And it even does more damage than swinging it two handed normally

[dull egret]

it's honestly why it got stuck in my head lol

I really like the half dual half wrestling match that a lot of medieval swordfighting was

if I ever pick up GMing Pathfinder 2e I'll probably use that on emenies too tbh

my 5e encounter design was defined by players learning that the danger of Random Goons isn't damage but shoves

[barren cipher]

my 5e encounter design was defined by "the calculator says that the party can take on six of these 'thugs' without too much trouble, let's go with that"

[warped orbit]

ah, Thugs
a classic

[dull egret]

genuinely one encounter I had made

a player probably would've solo'd the four guys who ran at them

if the first guy hadn't shoved them over and the second guy hadn't held them down

[warped orbit]

really don't know what they were thinking with those
they are kinda overtuned for their CR

[dull egret]

Advice to GMs: make human-scale encounters funny, Shove your players today

getting action economy'd need not just be a DPS check

[silver geyser]

And is more fun when it's not.

[turbid dagger]

Still riding the high off Disarming a boss with my bastard sword fighter, AoOing them when they tried to fix, and disrupting the fix since my AoO crit

[warped orbit]

nice

so glad Disarm is actually useful sometimes now

[turbid dagger]

That convinced me to put disarming twist into my build plan
If I wasn't doing Marshal id do Disarming Stance too

[dull egret]

they were cooking with combat manuvres

it just needed time to become truely a banger

[warped orbit]

Trip is honestly kinda nuts in PF2

as is anything else that Prones

[dull egret]

Trip is nuts in PF, Period

Stomp existed

I gotta steal those for what I'm working on

[solar thorn]

Everyone's a hero until the dorks start sweeping the legs

[turbid dagger]

You can Trip someone then Disarming Twist them 😈
Then finish with a dueling parry

[warped orbit]

Lmao

Duelist maxxing

[dull egret]

YOU CAN WHAT

brb learning how to run pf2e to deploy that upon people

[turbid dagger]

Its PC side I think
Not sure any NPCs have trip, disarming twist, and dueling parry

Well everyone has trip, save the NPCs with no Athletics, but

[solar thorn]

Be the nightmare gm you want to see in the world and make an npc with that combo

[clever cobalt]

For a Mono-Kineticist of Electricty, would Metal or Air work better?

[frank crystal]

I feel like metal

They have a lot of electrical stuff

And they start with the thing that makes enemies take electrical damage if they hit you

[turbid dagger]

Is there any way to get Nonlethal on an animal barbs fists

[rustic cape]

Built a Stumbling Stance Thief out to level 20, determined the best ancestry for the build is halfling aiuvarin with Cultural Adaptability (Human), ending up taking feats from all 3 ancestries

[solar storm]

I mean no disrespect to the wider PF2 community but if something gets called “bad” for this game it’s generally not like… bad bad just meaningfully worse than baseline

[turbid dagger]

Yeah
Stuff usually is very competitive so things that fall behind get ragged on more than they should
There are a few GENUINE stinkers like Superstition but they're very rare

Its like
Most things are A grade
So things that are B grade get ragged on
And there's like one or two actual Ds

[silver geyser]

I wouldn't even call Superstition a stinker.

Just work with your allies, and it's generally going to work.

[warped orbit]

it's very party warping in how it just doesn't work with a lot of other classes

and requires specific support

and the payoff is still very mediocre for all the hoops you jump through

[turbid dagger]

Yeah what I'd say is that its benefits are more niche and not much more powerful than a basic instinct, and also fucks over a lot of parties

[solar thorn]

My mistake was reading rpgbot for pf2e guides/choice tiers
Everything's pretty decent don't let someone else really kill your vibe about a pick generally

[turbid dagger]

Huh, I only just now learned that Edgewatch has baked in options for not playing cops if you want
Intersting
Real talk an urban adventure campaign is very appealing and I'm quite sad that the primary one is uh
Edgewatch
(Tho early game SOT has been one too and its fun!)

[turbid dagger]

Do you think an Undead Created Fleshwarp would have to abide by its undead hunger
Can I do Zombie and be a frankenstein Stitched Together Thing thats undead but doesn't need to eat brains

[surreal basin]

I think I’m gonna leave SoT on book 3. It’s been so frustrating an experience for me which is wild

Such a disconnect between the general consensus and my experiences with it

[turbid dagger]

That's a shame
If you ain't vibing you ain't vibing

[eager mountain]

Outlaws of alkenstar

[young chasm]

nowhere near as powerful as 1e magus

still has some of the highest dps in the game

[eager mountain]

Yeah but that’s just magic in 1e

1e is super swingy rocket tag imo

From me playing it since I was 14

[fossil temple]

Any noteworthy change for Cleric in the revamp?
Except the holy/unholy thing

[solar tendon]

a bunch of warpriest focused feats

like shield working for saves

if it's also your holy icon

reactive attack that's triggered by an adjacent enemy using magic on an ally which if you succeed gives the ally a bonus

I think some of the domain spells got changes too

native feat for scaling heavy armour prof

[fossil temple]

Oh neat so warpriest is good now?

[solar tendon]

two action metastrike to use a font and attack with your favored weapon, if you hit then you also get to heal an ally

yup!

or at least much much more interesting

[fossil temple]

That sounds awesome! Nice

I have an upcoming lv8 oneshot and I was thinking in making a cleric, thanks!

Any god you recommend for warpriest?

[solar tendon]

one with a weapon you like mainly

a lot of the offensive feats require you to use it

[fossil temple]

Flickmace god when

[restive turtle]

How has it been going for you, out of curiosity? Are you GMing or playing? I hear a lot about SoT and I have been hearing more mixed opinions as of late

[clever cobalt]

I love urban campaigns, tbough I think the only ones that fit that are Edgewatch and Outlaws of Alkenstar

In terms of AP

[carmine egret]

there are definitely a few more from earlier

[rustic cape]

Edgewatch is so funny

[carmine egret]

unless I'm missing something

[rustic cape]

It's not trying to say ACAB, but does anyway by accident

[turbid dagger]

It's not exactly trying to be pro police either per some blog posts leading up to it
https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sh9r?Agents-of-Edgewatch-Update
More a very ill conceived detective adventure

[silver geyser]

Once again, the real problem with Edgewatch is PF's need to have loot.

[rustic cape]

Yeah it just has a bunch of particular elements that pretty much oblige the PCs to be bastards in very familiar ways, like the ticketing thing

[silver geyser]

Player's guide explicitly writes out "All damage can be nonlethal damage"

As soon as you start adding things like ABP, Edgewatch's bastard necessity thing calms down.

[turbid dagger]

I've also heard stuff like 'collect all perp loot as evidence, you get a GP bonus equivalent to the items for doing so'

[silver geyser]

That would also help.

[light gyro]

Does edgewatch have a discworld vibe? Could it? Just get a little silly with it

[rustic cape]

I mean really give the PCs a salary with a uniform allowance

Actually that’d be kinda funny

“You get a uniform allowance based on your level”

Would be the most amusingly straightforward way of doing WBL

Tie Level to actual ranks

“Oh yeah I’m a 15th grade detective”

[turbid dagger]

I think the trouble with GP oriented stuff like that and, tbh, what I suggested as well, is that it runs to like 20
So why are you getting raises hundreds of times greater than your initial salary

[unborn rain]

Because cops in a pathfinder universe would eventually need that much money to deal with increasingly dangerous threats

[rustic cape]

I think it’d be funny for a high-level officer’s uniform allowance to massively dwarf their actual salary

[unborn rain]

like if it's suddenly a cops job to go kill a dragon, you need to supply them with a dragon killing spear or whatever

[sinful gyro]

Or a smaller dragon

[turbid dagger]

Some kind of Relic Vault full of +4 weapons for the guard IS funny

[rustic cape]

Make a running joke out of it, everyone wants to level up for that sweet sweet allowance