Pathfinder

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah it’s a mount isn’t it

Uhhhh

Idk if there are rules saying you CAN’T

[warped orbit]

it's using this specifically
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=52

and mounts already apply cover against attacks in some cases

[barren cipher]

i'm not super convinced honestly

[surreal basin]

Hmmmm

Well….. I’d maybe let you if you were like

MGSV style off to once side

[barren cipher]

i mean you could just stand behind the damn thing, not even use the feat and still be able to hide

and it could be a bear if you like

i don't think legchairs make any difference at all

[warped orbit]

legchair is chosen purely because it has a useful maneuver

you could do it with any mount

[surreal basin]

Because I hate myself

I

Gave my players an upgraded golem stylus

That works on up to level 15 fellas

[silver geyser]

Because you want fun situations you mean! 😄

[paper juniper]

chat how do i set up pathfinder 1 flurry of blows in foundry

[eager mountain]

Uhhhh

Just attack twice

4head

[worthy stump]

haven't messed with the PF1e system in foundry, but depends whether chained or unchained

chained should just be however TWF is set up, since it's basically the same thing

[eager mountain]

If your asking for a macro I don’t know how to code those

[worthy stump]

unchained, no clue. probably just roll a few full bonus attacks based on level

[eager mountain]

Really all you gotta do is attack twice

Oh wait

No I’ve only used 2e foundry

Soooo idk

[frank crystal]

is there anyway to like

time stop a time stop?

Pull a jojo

[silver geyser]

So I know in 1e, you can cast Time Stop while in time stop to get more stopped time

[turbid dagger]

Counterspell Timestop effects everyone but IMO it has The Vibes

[frank crystal]

That’s fair

[frank crystal]

Also that’s sick

[rustic cape]

It’s just not a very efficient use of spell slots

But you can do it

[turbid dagger]

We've gotten to level 5 in SOT
Just finished ||Zoo Karen's Exotic Animal Shoppe||
My summoner gets Envenom Companion 😌

[clever cobalt]

Strength of Thousands?

[turbid dagger]

Yes

[turbid dagger]

I just realized that my Eidolon can't benefit from Envenom Companion due to Energy Heart 😭
Time for anothe retrain I guess................................

[frank crystal]

How would y’all have the party fight a tank?

[rapid wagon]

coupla ways, you want RAW, published supplements, or 3rd party

raw id upsize an assault, give it 1 extra armor, take away their knife, pop a vehicle and veteran template, and take the high impact rounds optional at minimum.

published, the Winter Scar playtest has a new MBT spotlight npc

and for 3rd party, Liminal Space has a Landship NPC you can pop a few templates on

[frank crystal]

Uhhh

This is the pathfinder chat

[rapid wagon]

oh my god

im so dumb

im sorry

[frank crystal]

Don’t worry

I’ve made the same mistake

Many times

[rapid wagon]

xD

[thorny berry]

in my experience: quite badly

[frank crystal]

Naaaah that fight went great

One of the easiest in the game

[thorny berry]

full disclosure: I was trying to find the DD2 bandit cannon but couldn't find any on google

which repeatedly fucked over my DoT parties

[frank crystal]

Ah

Yah I’ve never played DD2

Idk how that fight is

[thorny berry]

mostly not very challenging but it's immune to a bunch of stuff which sucks if that's your thing

[turbid dagger]

Clockwork Cannoneer, rename the Bore attack Ram or something and give it Trample with said Ram and the DC stripped off a creature of a similar level with Trample

[turbid dagger]

In response to this, just realized I did not ping ya

[frank crystal]

Hmm, that could work really well yah

And if anything I could add a neat thing where when it dies I roll a dice

And that’s how many crew survive and continue fighting

And for them just any regular soldier statblock

[silver geyser]

From 1e: https://aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Animated Tank

By fighting a tank. 😄

[limber comet]

Nah

The ideal pf2e tank is like

A steam powered crab tank

[turbid dagger]

Oughh
Thinking about designing a campaign again
Skelm v Hag shadow war...

[craggy thunder]

I have a perfet character for that concept lol

[turbid dagger]

It's a bit hard to bring pre existing concepts in I think because uhhh
Important detail: its set in the realm of the mammoth lords
Particularly Tolguth, for dinosaurs

[craggy thunder]

I mean the concept is ‘changeling magus that serves their hag mother’

[turbid dagger]

I see I see
Yeah I recall you talking shop about that

I just say it's hard cuz it's caveman land

But I do like the idea of a changeling magus, especially a witchy one

[eager mountain]

someone built rek-sai

[turbid dagger]

Hm
Workshopping the big beats of that game I eventually wanna run
I kind of want the endgame to be ||deciding whether to return the Oinodaemon to life, thus destroying the Four Horsemen and leaving Abaddon under the rule of a single god, or dealing a fatal wound to the captive Oinodaemon while it is weakened, cementing the Four Horsemen as the permanent rulers of Abaddon||
Trying to think of compelling differences between those two
Basically RN I'm thinking ||the Oinodaemon is FAR more powerful than the Horsemen, being a proper god, but is also generally more chill and temperate, content to let the world naturally decay and sip souls off the river every so often||
||While the Horsemen are all hot and bothered by the apocalypse but way weaker||

[clever cobalt]

👀

Sounds interesting

[unborn rain]

||idk, it just seems objectively worse to me that Abaddon would have unified leadership. Even if that leadership is like less actively going to try to kill you, the mere act of Abaddons unification would spell bad news for normal people. Compared to the status quo of the Horsemen.||

[clever cobalt]

||On the flip side, the Oinodaemon seems passive and not world-consomuing. The Horsemen, on the other hand, are very active and have destroyed worlds already.||

[turbid dagger]

I do want to have the choice be something they think about
The fact that ||free the oinodaemon|| does not seem the natural choice right away to someone here is a comfort, I was worried about that
But rggghh
I don't want the costs/benefits to be too vague

[clever cobalt]

Fair

when are you gonna run this game 👀

[turbid dagger]

A long time from now

[clever cobalt]

Fair :v

Was just curious

[turbid dagger]

One thing I'm having a real hard time with workshopping this is weaving 'small' plots together with large overarching ones like APs do
Like in SOT ||the Stone Ghost Arc is pretty disconnected from the Uh Oh Bugs plot, but they naturally complement eachother regardless||

[turbid dagger]

Back from walking my dog
The big Overarching Antag I have in my head right now is ||a massively powerful 'rogue' daemon that has manifested after the countless unpleasant deaths on the Path Of Aganhei over the centuries||
||It represents death by freezing, a cause of death somewhat divorced from the Horsemen, so it has some degree of autonomy compared to other powerful daemons||
||Its collecting the preserved heart, brain, and lungs of the Oinodaemon, which were removed to keep it from breaking free of its prison, with the hopes of implanting itself inside the Oinodaemon then reviving it, becoming the most powerful Daemon in the universe||
||I think I'm gonna represent it with an Elite Umbraex, with the undead traits replaced with Daemonic ones||

At campaign start, they are working through ||the Urdefhan empire of Doga-Delloth, who still worship the Oinodaemon,|| who are themselves working through ||A powerful Skelm that has stolen the identity of Po La, the Tien mayor of Icestair, one of the few static settlements in the Realm Of The Mammoth Lords||

[clever cobalt]

||This campaign take place in Tian Xia?||

[turbid dagger]

This isn't as much spoilers as the stuff before it, so I'm not worried- It takes place in the Realm Of The Mammoth Lords! Starting in Tolguth, the other big static settlement, and eventually expanding to a big adventure through most of the Saga Lands, as I currently envision it
I'm planning on having a lot of Tien influence tho, because Icestair is canonically led by a Tien dude, and the Path Of Aganhei is the primary overland trade route between Avistan and Tian Xia

I'm envisioning the broad strokes plot right now to be:
||Figure out why this hunting party went missing-> figure out why one of the missing hunters is a skelm now->take down the Boss Skelm at Icestair-> Figure out who the Glass Men who were backing Boss Skelm are->defend against an Urdefhan reprisal attack-> track down the Urdefhan Boss-> Hunt down the relics he's looking for->rush to stop Daemon Boss to stop him from going through with the incomplete ritual anyway, which will probably cause Cosmic Scale Problems if allowed to occur||
With some sub plots in between and maybe some more Main Plot Steps in the ||relic hunting|| section

[stuck bane]

Y’all next session my group is gonna finish abomination vaults

It’s taken us like a year and a half or so but they’re almost at the end

[turbid dagger]

How was it? I'm trying to read through myself ATM but The ADHD is getting at me with all the Village Info at the start

[stuck bane]

Not without some rough edges here and there but overall very enjoyable

[turbid dagger]

What rough edges stick out to you?

[stuck bane]

Off the top of my head, ||one encounter with giant mole rat was a little rough since it had a paralyzing venom with a really long duration, and it happened to hit the one party member who could deal with paralysis with that venom||

Nothing game ending but just little things that could be a bit frustrating for one person like that

[turbid dagger]

I've heard there's a ||Voidglutton|| at one point thats kind of a Player Killer

[stuck bane]

My advice is to be mindful of upcoming encounters and how they migh interact with the party

Oh that, they ran from that

Also good to emphasize that it's okay to bail sometimes

[turbid dagger]

Yeah that sounds wise
I myself am a 'fight until dead' sort of player so I might not take that hint unless a GM explicitly says so

[stuck bane]

It's been awhile so my memory of it is a little fuzzy

but I think as long as you're not focusing one player and they're picking up on how tough it is, they should be able to figure out an escape plan pretty easily

||I think mine kept shutting doors on it until they got far enough for it to stop chasing||

But yeah unless something has specifically locked the players in an area or they're up against something faster than them, running is always an option

[eager mountain]

so one of my party members in skulls and shackles keeps asking the gm for domain expansions

hes also playing basically an espy of Gold Roger from one piece

anyway

so I reached level 18 in exemplar

and I took sunwrecker

so when I activate it im just gonna tell him its a domain expansion

[solar thorn]

They're level 5
Damn

[warped orbit]

it do be like that, yeah

[solar thorn]

They did manage to get out before anyone got mulched but whoof

[warped orbit]

||they're lucky to be 5 already tbh, you can easily meet that thing at level 4||

[solar thorn]

They've been very reliably getting all available XP and this was about the last thing they found on this floor

I did tell them "You get a terrible, horrible sinking feeling you need to leave" when they entered but players gonna stick their noses everywhere

[barren cipher]

if you're level 5 and have 18 ac you better make damn sure you aren't anywhere near anything

[solar thorn]

It was the ranger's pet snake, barely survived the massive damage

[barren cipher]

or is flatfooted baked in there

[solar thorn]

Removing some of the accidental namedrops in the images there.

And the healing afterwards isn't making people feel much better lol

Life is tough in Belcorra's house of fun

[warped orbit]

Better get on that Expert Treat Wounds game 😛

[stuck bane]

Oh is this the previously discussed thing to run from?

That exact roll on my sibling’s character was a big factor in them deciding to book it

[warped orbit]

we got pretty lucky in that fight

got some good hits in early
and it rolled kinda bad, so we didn't get crit too much

[clever cobalt]

Random charactr thought time:

Oread or Talos Lizardfolk from the Mana Wastes

aka a Deathclaw character

Numeria could also work, thinking about it

[frank crystal]

are there any good polearm using NPC statblocks?

Any level works, I wanna upscale it for a NPC

[sinful gyro]

Palace Guard has a halberd

[frank crystal]

ah great

Thanks

[sinful gyro]

No worries

[turbid dagger]

There's a really cool shield and spear NPC in SOT also, but can't recall the name

[solar tendon]

https://2e.aonprd.com/NPCs.aspx?ID=1695 :)

[frank crystal]

hmm, what would be a cool effect for a magic halberd for a legendary monster hunter?

Like, killing gigantic drakes kinda monster hunting

[sinful gyro]

Could go dark souls and have it shoot lighting

[solar tendon]

probably some kind of grounding effect

is a classic dragon hunting thing

[frank crystal]

yah, those both work really well

[sinful gyro]

Is there some kinda energy cage spell?

[frank crystal]

+when they fight this guy they'll almost certainly have access to some flight

and keeping them down will be useful

[frank crystal]

not sure tbh

[sinful gyro]

What level we working with?

There's force cage at 7th level

[frank crystal]

18

This guy is a late game villain

Well I’m making his statblock now because I wanna introduce him early

But he’s gonna start as an ally

[sinful gyro]

Ah you can, if you wanted to lean into it, give them a ton of lighting spells

There's a lot of them

[frank crystal]

Admittedly I do wanna keep him mostly martial

But I can always give him some magic items to cast it

Like his halberd actually

There’s magic weapons that let you cast spells right?

[sinful gyro]

Ye

And draw the lighting is a spell to effect weapons

[frank crystal]

Ah sick

Then yah I’ll probably give a grounding effect, some lighting damage on hit

And the ability to cast some lighting spells with it

Also I’ve got another question, for a much earlier game villain I’m giving him a magic rapier that has the cunning Rune

But I also wanna include some other divination style abilities

Rn I’m thinking of giving it an action to predict what someone is gonna do and give him a bonus to AC

But I’m kinda struggling to think of what else

[sinful gyro]

I think there's some abilities like that in the game

[frank crystal]

I’ll steal some yah

[sinful gyro]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=191

Is the main thing I'm thinking of

[frank crystal]

Also it’s probably just best to write these down in their statblock as their abilities right?

Even if narratively these are from their weapons

[solar tendon]

yeah usually

[sinful gyro]

Yeah, I'd keep the weapon as just "Weapon Type + Runes"

And write abilities seperate

[frank crystal]

Alright

[turbid dagger]

Final Fantasy Jump 👀

[frank crystal]

honestly maybe

but I already have a dragoon analogue

[clever cobalt]

Thinking about it, I think War for Immortals may be to PF2e what the Drift Crisis was for Starfinder

[sinful gyro]

A big setting shake up?

[clever cobalt]

Which is to say, a massive in-universe event with oneshots, a campaign book, and an AP or two

And yeah that. Nathrally

[sinful gyro]

Ye, especially with the remaster tie in

[clever cobalt]

Yep

That was on my mind as well

And while I'm unsure how much of the changes were permanent, the Drift Crisis at the very least caused chaos on a galactic scale

I can totally see WfI causing massive chaos across Golarion

[sinful gyro]

Well a big god is gonna die

You'd think that'd change thingsd

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

Last time that happened

A lot happened

But yeah I'm hoping for some major long-term shakeups

Though what kind obviously depends on which God dies, to an extent

[young chasm]

i think it'd be really interesting if pharasma died

[clever cobalt]

That's true but the setting implications would be uh

Not small

Even by God Death standards

[young chasm]

exactly.

that's what makes it cool

[clever cobalt]

I'm actually hoping the undead God, however you spell it

Ugoratha?

[young chasm]

urgathoa

[clever cobalt]

Her yes

[young chasm]

i think my money personally is on nethys

in the age of lost omens a god all about omniscience? we can't have that

[sinful gyro]

I'm still thinking Sanerae

The sun one

[solar thorn]

paladins would be fuming

[sinful gyro]

Let em fume

[turbid dagger]

Personally the iconic cleric being a Sarenite makes me doubt that
Because they're meant to be sort of static

And she's still the iconic in player core 1

[silver geyser]

I also don't think killing the goddess whose major portfolio bit is "Anyone can be a good person" is a good move.

Because the other times that gods die, it has massive reprecussions on what they govern.

Like animals getting way more aggressive once Lamashtu kills the former god of travel and animals

[solar thorn]

Actually that's a good point - and they just got rid of alignment too so people/beings are no longer cosmologically bastards

[silver geyser]

Or the entire Age of Lost Omens kicking off with Aroden's death.

[turbid dagger]

I mean I don't think it would cause redemption to not be possible or anything
It's more one of her personal beliefs than a metaphysical concept she governs

She's primarily the sun god, and also thinks second chances are rad

[sinful gyro]

Having an iconics backstory be shaken up would make the event seem more impactful to the setting

Plus, her realm is soorta vague

So it can change the world without actually needing much mechanically changes to how things work

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

Plus yknow, the whole sun thing

[sinful gyro]

Sun would still be there

But maybe like the world is plunged into darkness for, I dunno, a few months

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[turbid dagger]

Would you say someone with Einherjar lineage would be a Nephelim, or a Ganzi

[frank crystal]

Probably nephelim

Einherjar seem more divine then pure chaos to me

with how they're a divine army of the dead in PF2E I think

oh wait they're actually not

nevermind they'd probably be ganzi

[turbid dagger]

They're CN Monitors yeah
Proteans slightly less wacky friends

Tho Nephelim does say this

I think I will read both and see which one I like the feats of better

[frank crystal]

Oh shit

I guess it makes sense to include them now that nephilim is more generic

instead of just the heavens or the hells

[turbid dagger]

Oh wait

Well there we go
(still gonna read both tho)

[frank crystal]

welp

also goddamn that is a strong feat

[turbid dagger]

I have only now realized that animal skins ac boost is at every point BEFORE the actual ac boost at 13
Because it gives expert unarmored early
I feel dumb as an animal Barb enjoyer

[frank crystal]

Wait what do you mean?

[turbid dagger]

So, animal skin does 2 things:
It boosts your unarmored defense Prof to expert
It makes your unarmored ac 2 with a dex cap of 3
At 13, it becomes ac 3 dex 3
But 13 is when you get expert armor prof natively as a barbarian
So for levels 6 to 13 your AC is 2 higher than other barbarians cuz you get expert early, and 1 higher than other medium armor martials, assuming their Prof progression isn't different
But at 13, all barbarians get expert prof in armor, so your AC boost is only 1 compared to other barbs, and equivalent to medium armor on other martials
It's complicated

[clever cobalt]

Like, the Norse divine former-mortal warriors?

Vibe wise it feels Nephilim fits

[turbid dagger]

Einherjar and Valkyries are there own thing in PF
They're the chaotic Monitors, alongside Proteans

And as above it seems they are under Ganzi, at least pre remaster

[frank crystal]

Ohhh, yah I noticed that when I was making my own animal barbarian, it seemed kinda weird but it’s still good at least

It’s not like it’s equivalent after 13

[turbid dagger]

Nephilim may be meant to replace Ganzi and Aphroite too

[frank crystal]

I kinda hope not tbh

They don’t have a lot of the Ganzi and Aphroite stuff

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, maybe not
It just mentions monitors too
And the monitors are covered by the Ganzi/duskwalker/aphorite spectrum

[turbid dagger]

And yeah, it's still real nice
It's like eating a cake and then learning after the fact wait no, the point isn't that it's a cake, it was a magic cake that fixes your ADHD also

[frank crystal]

I’m not sure I understand the analogy but I get it

[turbid dagger]

All this time I was focused on the level 13 heavy armor equivalent and not the bigger boost from expert prof, I mean

[frank crystal]

Ahhh ok

That makes sense

[clever cobalt]

Just realized something

Starfinder 2e and Mythic rules come out roughly around the same time

Mythic Starfinder time baby

[eager mountain]

Maybe

[limber comet]

I dunno if Mythic stuff would mesh well with SF2e

Anyways who's running the Space Dandy sf2e campaign

[fossil temple]

oh god yes

[clever cobalt]

Yeah probably not

The idea just popped in my head

[rustic cape]

Conversely, mythic stuff might mesh perfectly with SF’s scale

[solar tendon]

tbf we don't really know much of anything about what mythic is even gonna look like

[fossil temple]

I, for one, likes it a lot that the Soldier will use CON as it's main stat

Just like the founding fathers envisioned the Soldier would be

[trim grotto]

What are some good APs to get some friends who have never played Pathfinder into Pathfinder

(2e)

[turbid dagger]

Beginner box into abom vaults, perhaps?

[eager mountain]

ye

[surreal basin]

Exctintion Curse is a good 1-20 if that’s more your speed

[trim grotto]

Oooh all good choices

[surreal basin]

Although that one comes with the warning that the final boss needs some tuning lol

||30 foot extreme dc confusion aura is pretty harsh||

[young chasm]

extinction curse has some issues imo

abomination vaults is just a solid, shorter campaign megadungeon

[surreal basin]

yeah but some people are more into full campaigns which is why i recc'd it

and it has it's issues too lol

[rustic cape]

Abomination Vaults is a lot of fun

Actually captures some of the feel of a classic like Durlag’s Tower

[fossil temple]

What's Durlag's Tower?

[rustic cape]

The megadungeon in BG1

An abandoned tower with a vast complex underneath it

[fossil temple]

oh! Nice

do you know if the adventures ever go on sale?

[sinful gyro]

Sometimes

Best bet is a humble bundle

They normally do a few each year

[fossil temple]

dang

[limber comet]

Megadungeons are so cool

Dungeons are cool in general

[turbid dagger]

I wonder if stolen fate would be a good post abom vaults campaign
Since it starts in Absalom and your pal at the start of abom vaults is big into fortune telling

[clever cobalt]

Hmm, any good examples of what Mwangi Gnoll armor might look like?

[clever cobalt]

And I think SF outright says AV is a good 1-10 campaign prior to SF

[limber comet]

Yeah definitely, I've seen that thought float around a few times

[young chasm]

does anyone know if the nethys team has said something about their remaster progress?

[surreal basin]

Basically just it’s done when it’s done
Last update they were barely even done with feats

You can check their patreon

I’m pretty frustrated since they’ve apperantly had player core since June

I know it’s a lot but it sucks that the website basically isn’t usable

[solar thorn]

Abomination vaults is solid and has a fantastic foundry module available too. My only two bits of advice are these:

1. it's remarkably deadly. Warn your players.
2. As written it is a lot of monster closets without extra spice. Spend some time coming up with ways to make encounters more interesting whenever you see the line "they attack immediately and fight until death"

[warped orbit]

we've been playing AV, and being up a level from where the adventure expects you to be has been pretty helpful for us

[solar thorn]

I think for a team that aren't tactical or just want a laidback experience should start at level 2. A through team will start to reach floor level +1 about halfway through the floor but that still leaves floor 1 and the random severe encounters on later floors as murder machines

The ||blood of belcora|| and ||giant scorpion|| on floor 1 will straight up kill someone with persistant damage

[carmine egret]

I've been considering using the Beginner Box as a tutorial adventure to get them there

[solar thorn]

Good idea!

[frank crystal]

How do the rules work for oversized weapons?

I remember there’s something about them but I don’t really remember

And I can’t find them on nethys

[warped orbit]

Doing Beginner Box and then carrying on at level 2 works pretty well IMO, that's basically what we did

[warped orbit]

There aren't any really

You can use oversized equipment, but it's just way heavier

[frank crystal]

Ohh

I thought there was

[warped orbit]

A large weapon would be twice the bulk of an equivalent medium one, bug otherwise the same

Giant Barb is the only thing that really interacts with them

[frank crystal]

Huh

[unborn rain]

tiny ancestries interact with things being smaller but that's it for size things really

[frank crystal]

I kinda assumed there would be some penalty for wielding one because I know giant barb has extra penalties

Also I just realized, the way giant barb is worded you don’t get the extra rage damage while wielding a weapon you picked up from a medium creature

Like a magic weapon someone dropped

[warped orbit]

It needs to be a large weapon yeah

[frank crystal]

That’s kinda annoying tbh

[surreal basin]

Tbh I just assume magical equipment is The Size Players Want It To Be

[warped orbit]

That's generally how I'd handle it yeah

[wary yoke]

Frozen take, given that it's for an obscure 3PP subsystem continuation from another 3PP for 1E, but I got Codex of Blood for completionism and I'm satisfied with it

Compared to the base Path of War classes, the Parasite feels a bit like a hybrid class (initiating and recovering exactly like a Mystic) but has the same sort of appeal of "making my own monster" as the alchemist does

The three new disciplines seem interesting, always fun to see them

But much better than the other PoW product in the line

[barren cipher]

you can use an oversized weapon but you're clumsy 1 while wielding it

same for everyone as giant barbs

giant barbs just get benefits as well as the drawback

[surreal basin]

I am thinking of

Creating rules for eating meals and such during long rests

As well as a bunch of foods that give you benefits for the next day

[clever cobalt]

Kingmaker 2e has rules for that

[surreal basin]

And also downtime stuff that provides longer lasting benefits for actually living expensive lifestyles

Really?

I couldn’t find it in the players guide

Or on nethys

[clever cobalt]

It's in the campaign book or side book, I forget which

Companion Guide I think?

[surreal basin]

Right he’s

Yes

Forgot about that

.... maybe I'll just add a bunch more

It just kills me that there’s no difference between Poor meals and Fine Dining beyond flavor

In this heavily mechanics based game

Same for lifestyles

[clever cobalt]

Not everything needs mechanical impact imo

[surreal basin]

For sure

I just

Hm

Actually I think I’m of a different kind

Because tracking lifestyle expense is not noted as optional

[turbid dagger]

I can see it being fun AS a mechanic tho
Pull some dunmeshi shit

[surreal basin]

And gold is pretty valuable in PF2E

[solar tendon]

that would be pretty dope yeah

[rapid wagon]

seeing as you can make your background a cook, it would be nice to be able to bring noncombat value to the party with your cooking

[turbid dagger]

Dash Of Herbs as a wood kineticist also gives me an urge to be a Good Cook
Though there's also alchemical food on that front

[rapid wagon]

i did entertain playing a skeleton with a cook background, just enjoys making food for others

[turbid dagger]

I am reminded of DoS2
Where if you are undead someone asks you to be their cook and you go 'well I can but I can't really check whether it tastes good or not'

[surreal basin]

oh the cooking is good and the rules work although I kinda want to make some Special Ingriedient ones that require specifc monster parts

[young chasm]

honestly yeah. i only asked because it just occured to me that foundry, demiplane and pathbuilder have all updated to pc1

so i was just wondering what the nethys team was doing lol

[surreal basin]

they're uh

working on it

[frank crystal]

Hmm

I wonder if I should make a satyr ancestry

Because I really like satyr as a fantasy race

But they’re not becoming an ancestry in the upcoming book

And that’d be the time to add them if they were ever gonna

[frank crystal]

Is there any good like

Vine tentacle spells?

The classic like vines or roots come out of the ground and attack someone kinda spells

[surreal basin]

There’s entangle, obv

[frank crystal]

Yah but that’s kinda low impact for what I want this to do

[surreal basin]

What do you want it to do then lol

[frank crystal]

I’m kinda imagining a spell like black tentacles in 5e

Designating an area as a damage zone because the vines are attacking anything that gets near them

[surreal basin]

Murderous Vine? Black Tentacles exists but isn’t primal

[frank crystal]

Oh murderous vine isn’t exactly what I’m looking for but I’m definitely adding it to the list

[frank crystal]

Also good to know black tentacles is still a spell

I might just steal it for this NPC

Narratively they’re a druid so I wanna stick to primal

[surreal basin]

Yeah there isn’t a spell that does the same thing with plants, you should just reflavor Black Tentacles

[frank crystal]

But they’re also a weird druid

So getting spells from other traditions isn’t that weird

[surreal basin]

The closest is tangling creepers which is a big aoe but doesn’t do damage

[frank crystal]

Honestly I feel like tangling creepers+murderous vine kinda gives the vibes I want for this NPCs statblock

Even if it’s comboing two spells instead of doing it with one

[rustic cape]

Animist has a 16th level feat that lets them do this with impunity, fwiw

[frank crystal]

Oh shit

That’s sick

Though this is for a NPC

So can’t quite use that

[surreal basin]

You could if you scale it down

[frank crystal]

Guess so

[turbid dagger]

PF isn't as allergic to importing PC stuff as some systems
Lots of dudes with word-for-word features or feats

And of course PCs and NPCs share spells

[trim grotto]

I think I've talked about it before but I sincerely hope I get to play in a Fist of the Ruby Phoenix campaign as a monk before I die

[paper juniper]

is elephant in the room worth it or is it too much?

suggested it after my unmonk kept getting her ass beat due to sheer bad luck and me noticing that martial feats have way too many requirements and restrictions for their own good

with a wholeass feature being made to circumvent said requirements
and even then most are extremely situational or just not worth it

[unborn rain]

What is Elephant in the room

[paper juniper]

a fanmade "revision" to pf1 to try and alleviate some of its issues (mainly the martial/caster imbalance)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fvTi6TSfKTnpc5dE9xIUfXmV1t0x2kGbn3S5a8L5Y0A/edit?pli=1

here is a condensed version of the pdf that just lists what it changes about the game

[clever cobalt]

Fist of the Ruby Phoenix is definitely one of the campaigns I wanna play as well

Especially since I haven't really gotten a chance for high-level PF2e yet >_>

[worthy stump]

every time i've played PF1e, i've used some version of Elpehant in the Room. it makes martial's lives much less of a pain in the butt, imo it's a very welcome change to the system

[eager mountain]

ive gotten to play high level as an exemplar for a little bit

only like a hand full of games tho

[frank crystal]

I ran a level 20 one shot twice but I’ve yet to play a high level character

[turbid dagger]

I am also big into Ruby Phoenix
Would bring either an animal Barb or my weird stumbling feint thaumaturge

[frank crystal]

How does that work?

[surreal basin]

I played a witch for Ruby Phoenix

It sure was an experience

[turbid dagger]

Thaumaturge with Monk Dedication
Take Stumbling Stance and run with that till level 10, when you can get Flurry Of Blows, then take Stumbling Feint at 12
So you can use you bigass Cha to Feint and have it apply to two strikes instead of one
It only triggers Weakness once but Implement's Empowerment's flat damage will occur multiple times
Take Tome to further increase your chances to hit, by the time you have Feint you can put Heroism on yourself with Scroll Esoterica also

[clever cobalt]

I thought you can only use the Stumbling Stance strikes if both hands are free?

[turbid dagger]

Nah
None of the monk stances assume you need free hands
Because you can kick and stuff too

This is also why Monks are very weirdly encouraged to take shields

[clever cobalt]

Huh, got it

[rustic cape]

I like Stumbling Feint Thief

With Medic stuff

Being an acupressure assassin

[thorny berry]

wait, why does it only trigger weakness once

I was basically planning to use this exact same build for an upcoming game

but eventually dipping sorcerer/sixth pillar

[turbid dagger]

Flurry Of Blows combines the damage of both strikes for weakness and resistances

[thorny berry]

Ohh, right

[trim grotto]

I've only had super limited experience on a character i hated

[turbid dagger]

I want to do high level stuff too
The highest I've gotten is 5, in our SOT game

[rustic cape]

I’d love to do a high level game

I hear good things about Stolen Fate

[trim grotto]

same

if i was slightly more ambitious i'd take advantage of all these people in chat talking about wanting to do a high level game and run something but there's no fuckin way i can run 3 campaigns at once lol

[rustic cape]

Well, if you chance to get something together, I have a rogue I’m looking to play :D

[turbid dagger]

I've been thinking of doing a minimum prep combat room style thing at high levels
Interdimensional arena ran by Proteans or something

Because I mostly want to see High Level Builds
Because the SOT and Kingmaker give me my dose of Pathfinder Story Content

[trim grotto]

that sounds awesome

[turbid dagger]

There's so many cool high level statblocks
I've recently started obsessing over the Umbraex https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=2361

AKA the Reverse Phoenix

[clever cobalt]

Hmm, what are some positive aspects of "dark" gods? Like Zom-Kuthon or Lashamatu

I've always had the idea of a good guy who also worships Yog Sothoth, but I dunno how I'd make it work

Maybe just focus kn the "Yog Sothoth knows everything" part

[turbid dagger]

This was my answer for Zon last time this was asked

[solar tendon]

lamashtu helps you have babies. protects people that the other gods don't

[turbid dagger]

TLDR is that suffering is inherent to existence, so the happiest person in the world is the one who has learned to enjoy suffering

[rustic cape]

Lamashtu is a patron of mothers, outcasts, and those willing to embrace ugliness (literal and figurative) for strength

[trim grotto]

lamashtu is worshipped by a big part of the gnoll population as a sorta earth mother/fertility goddess

a protector of the young and stuff

[solar tendon]

shed the idea that beauty is a virtue

[trim grotto]

ALSO THATS COOL AS FUCK

[clever cobalt]

Interesting

[barren cipher]

i think with this sort of thing you have to accept the risks of advancing the agenda of whatever awful being you are working for in exchange for the good you can do with the power you thereby obtain

[turbid dagger]

I will note the Mwangi Gnolls call her Old Grandmother and only pray to her if they have no other choice
Which I have always found a fascinating detail
A 'break glass in case of emergency' god

[clever cobalt]

Man I wish we knew more about Nidal

It's an interesting nation

[surreal basin]

there's also a water pheonix

[barren cipher]

i don't think it matters especially who you are talking to

[surreal basin]

that's more mid level

[rustic cape]

But yeah, like … Lamashtu is posolutely absitively a cruel and dangerous goddess, but she stands astride concepts every culture does value

[clever cobalt]

I feel like a Fleshwarp who worships Yog Sothoth, Zon-Kuthon, or Pharasma may work best for the ideas I have

[solar tendon]

one aspect of lamashtu is like. People are gonna think you're evil because you don't fit beauty standards or you have the wrong ancestry or you're disabled anyway so why not fuck shit up

what does the society you would take from truly owe you if this is how they treat their most vulnerable

[barren cipher]

it's hard to think of a reasonably well adjusted person with positive goals associating with zon-kuthon

[trim grotto]

ah you're right

[barren cipher]

yog-sothoth i can see because you can just accept its terrible knowledge and not go insane, going insane is for losers

[rustic cape]

Skill issue

[clever cobalt]

True

[barren cipher]

it won't happen to me

[clever cobalt]

I feel.like a Thaumaturge makes sense for Yog Sothoth

[barren cipher]

whereas with zon-kuthon you gotta kick those puppies and permanently scar those orphans

[clever cobalt]

Using their boundless knowledge to hunt monsters (literal and metaphorical)

[rustic cape]

For Yog, I think the way you’d do it is to emphasize the aspect of Truth that it embodies

[clever cobalt]

Plus Thaumaturges also seem like the "Lore Class"

[barren cipher]

i think it's probably good as an origin story rather than as like a lifestyle

[clever cobalt]

Yog, you mean?

[barren cipher]

yeah

[rustic cape]

“That which can be destroyed by the truth should be” kind of beat

[clever cobalt]

Cause yeah I'm not gonna go around mutating babies

[barren cipher]

because you don't want to keep rolling those dice

[clever cobalt]

Or whatever Yog wants

Given the Outer Gods are, well, what they are

I think a more transactional relationship works, as opposed to how someone may worship a "regular" god

So yeah

[clever cobalt]

True, I think it also fits in the "if they accept the hard truth they'll be better off for it in the long run" sorta deal

Admittedly the idea of Absurdism in the Lovecraft Mythos entertains me

Because I feel Absurdism is not invalidated by the Mythos

[rustic cape]

It’s not

Camus describes the Absurd in terms of becoming aware of the hostility and meaninglessness of the natural world

[clever cobalt]

Thaumaturge, Wizard, Oracle and other "knowledge" classes fit YS well

[rustic cape]

Among other things

[clever cobalt]

And yeah, exactly

It aligns decently wirh the core traits of cosmic horror

In a weird way

I also had the idea of a Dark Tapestry-themed Exemplar

[rustic cape]

You don’t even have to be an asshole about it, you could have a whole praxis of preparing through a regimen of study and meditation to receive the terrible knowledge Yog has to impart

[clever cobalt]

Who is slowly becoming an elder being

And losing their humanity as they level up

[rustic cape]

“Why are you drinking out of a human skull?”
“To help contemplate death and better prepare my mind for knowledge that is tantamount to it, that I may help others.”

[rustic cape]

Hm, question: can Follow-Up Strike (https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2019) follow a strike missed as part of Flurry of Blows, or must it follow a single strike?

I’m inclined to think the latter

But I’d appreciate a second opinion

… oh wait Flourish

Can’t use them both anyway

Never miiiiind

[barren cipher]

you're right anyway

your last action was flurry of blows

[turbid dagger]

Doesn't that preclude like every metastrike though
And is therefore useless for most martials

Well not useless I suppose but like
Bad

In general I assumed subordinate action nonsense only worked one way
Like not being able to do, say, Predator's Pounce into Furious Grab feels Bad

[barren cipher]

why?

everyone's action economy compression works like this

it's the price of breaking the three action economy

[surreal basin]

I think you can do this after a missed metastrike? you still missed a strike, just as part of another action? that's just my read, idk

I really think the Strike part of PF2E’s language isn’t particularly intuitive

there should probably be different words for The Action That Lets You Hit Someone and the concept of hitting someone if they're gonna differentiate between the two

[warped orbit]

Generally if something refers to the action you take, it does need to be the Strike action specifically

So "when you Strike" does work as a subordinate action, but "when you take the Strike action" or "your last action was a Strike" does not

[turbid dagger]

Wow Furious Grab like
Is not good, then

Or at the very least its not level 12 good

[surreal basin]

I mean are you making like

No basic strikes ever?

It’s basically an auto-success on a grapple if you hit someone with a basic strike

although yeah level 12 is quite high

[trail nova]

By level 12? Yeah, hopefully my fighter generally has a better metastrike.

[surreal basin]

okay yeah I did look it up

and it;s a barb feat, who normally doesn't have a better all-situations metastrike imo

[turbid dagger]

Its just underwhelming when stuff like combat grab exists

Which you can get off dedications

[surreal basin]

it is definitely weirdly worse than combat grab yes

yeah idk whats up with it being just worse combat grab

barb has a bunch of feats that just kinda suck tbh

hopefully it'll be getting some fixes in core 2

[clever cobalt]

Combat Grab is also.like

Level 2 iirc?

[turbid dagger]

Fortunately it also benefits a lot from archetypes so not a big loss imo

[warped orbit]

Combat Grab has Press, that's pretty different

[clever cobalt]

Combat grab you also automatically grab the target on a hit iirc

[warped orbit]

Hitting a no MAP Strike vs one with -5 MAP is a pretty different proposition

[silver geyser]

Ah, Press does change things on that, yeah.

[surreal basin]

Ohhh yeah

That’s true

[warped orbit]

Combat Grab also requires a free hand, Furious Grab works with Grab weapons

[turbid dagger]

I mean, the use case is the same
'I just hit a dude and now want him in a headlock'
Combat Grab gives you an extra attack while your at it
If you miss with the map you fail to grab but
At worse it's a side grade you get 8 levels earlier

[surreal basin]

I mean you have a -5 worse chance at executing the grab

[clever cobalt]

Theoretically-4, if you're doing it with a fist

Since Fists are agile

[turbid dagger]

But your also doing another attack
As a barbarian

[surreal basin]

but it's more likely to miss by a wide margin

if you really want the grab

then furious grab is better

[warped orbit]

I would compare Furious Grab more to something like Improved Knockdown, but it's more flexible because you only spend the second action if you succeed

[surreal basin]

furious grab is about the grab

it sucks that you can't do it with a meta strike for sure but

it's not just flat worse than CG, since the press tag pretty majorly sucks

also from a barb perspective you do have to take two feats to get CG I believe

archetype and then the feat itself

[turbid dagger]

Stride
Regular strike
FG
Just seems like such a depressing turn at level 12

[surreal basin]

I guess

[solar storm]

I don't really see the issue

[surreal basin]

not every turn has to be some crazy shit, giant barb is over there striding and power attacking still

[barren cipher]

stride strike and run away to hide behind the champ is a great giant barb turn

[surreal basin]

nah you gotta take those hits

simply attack again

more damage

;3

[solar storm]

look I paid for the whole HP bar

[barren cipher]

i was playing dual wield so, you know, the opportunity cost of running away was pretty damn high

standing and fighting was not always an option, your hp bar is only good for like two or three crits before you feel like you're in trouble

and you get crit a lot

[surreal basin]

do..... you?

[barren cipher]

yeah

-2 ac is a lot

2hp/level is not a lot

[surreal basin]

oh are you clumsy 2? I thought it was just 1

[barren cipher]

no, you're clumsy 1 but rage ac penalty is untyped

[surreal basin]

Ohhh yeah I forgor

That’s fair

Yeah I do hope Barb gets hyped up a lil more in the remaster

[barren cipher]

i like barb well enough, but it certainly couldn't hurt to jazz it up a little

fury instinct is a bit sad

when i think of barbarian my mind usually goes to animal or dragon as the kind of baseline

[surreal basin]

Just in general I don’t feel like they really earn all the hoops they have to jump through

In terms of like

Cost benefit

[barren cipher]

yeah, barb feats and instinct benefits are cool and all but how about +2 to hit and heavy armour proficiency

the feats in particular, like they can be amazing in the right place at the right time, fabulous utility

but improved knockdown you use every fight, probably every turn

[warped orbit]

Fury does need a boost definitely

It's just both very bland and not that great

[turbid dagger]

So many early barb feats are funny
Yeah I'd like imprecise scent while raging
I'd like sudden charge but I can Force Open during it

[surreal basin]

fair: I guess I mean it feels like the barb specific downsides (- AC, no concentrate ) don't outweigh the benefits (damage bonus, some extra niche feats)

[warped orbit]

That one you could pick up via Mauler admittedly, but I get your point

[surreal basin]

it's not in DESPERATE need of anything

[barren cipher]

yeah, honestly like precision ranger or something is very comparable to most instincts for most purposes

[surreal basin]

I'd just like to see it

personally I wouldn't really ever go barb over ranger or fighter for any reason other than flavor

or rather

I don't think it has much benefit to going it over them

other than deer barb which is broken anyway lmao

[barren cipher]

even deer barb ain't that broken

[turbid dagger]

I'd take animal Barb on its own merits but I'm less big on the others
And I'm not even talking deer

[surreal basin]

actually pretty excited to see if they make some changes

[warped orbit]

Animal and Dragon are great IMO

[surreal basin]

haven't checked out dragon much

[warped orbit]

Fury is pretty bad
Superstition is far too niche and warps the game around itself or sucks

[surreal basin]

superstition just doesn't make any kind of sense lol

[warped orbit]

Element is fine to good
Giant is good IMO, but fragile

[surreal basin]

for me to ever consider supersition it would need to make me immune to magic or something game breaking

since the entire game is pretty much balanced and designed around it

oh boy a +2 and resistance to half the spells
that sure is worth never getting buffed ever again

:p

just truly baffling design

would be funny for a oneshot tho

[silver geyser]

Superstition Barb is a 1e-ism

[surreal basin]

Your extremely restrictive anathema grants you powers beyond those of other instincts.

I never read this subclass in full

this is

incredible

[barren cipher]

like sure, if the other guy is a wizard he's going to have a dreadful time

[surreal basin]

hilariously, a better time than against a giant barb tho

[warped orbit]

Oh also forgot one
Spirits is great, iff you deal with undead a lot
Otherwise it's a bit meh

[surreal basin]

elemental is good!

especially in a free archetype game where you can grab kinet

[turbid dagger]

Spirit is one I'm interested in too yeah
I've thought about a Zombie Spirit Barb for Blood Lords before
Since Animal's rage damage boost only applies to its own attack not all unarmed attacks
And I want to do Ravenous Charge stuff

[silver geyser]

Behold, 1e Superstition!

The barbarian gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws made to resist spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 for every 4 levels the barbarian has attained. While raging, the barbarian cannot be a willing target of any spell and must make saving throws to resist all spells, even those cast by allies.

[rustic cape]

Just never rage /s

[silver geyser]

It was a major contribution to SBDS

[surreal basin]

SBDS?

[dull egret]

goofy ass barbarian archetype

not a definition I'm just commenting

[silver geyser]

Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome

[dull egret]

Ya

god I hate how that works so much lol

[silver geyser]

Thanks to your Max HP dropping when you left rage, you could just die if you went unconscious

Because the total damage is still there

[dull egret]

it's honestly one of the things I just

hate without a qualifier with Pathfinder

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah

[dull egret]

"Barbarian" type classes in D&D-styled RPGs already suffer

for all the reasons Fighters do with the added issue of gimping yourself via mechanics

[rustic cape]

I mean fwiw in 3.5 barbarian was broadly better/more important than fighter

[dull egret]

Miles better yes

but that's more an issue of 3.5 fighter being even less real than Pathfinder

This is a Bad Take of mine and I know it but I feel like a Mutagen Fighter is a better Barbarian than Barbarians

putting aside rage-power-cycling

with rage power cycling, ya there's a niche, it's fine

[warped orbit]

wasn't PF1 Fighter actually pretty okay thanks to Advanced Weapon Training later?

[rustic cape]

Barbarian actually brought some really good stuff with ACFs (whirling frenzy, spirit lion totem, etc)

[rustic cape]

Yes

[dull egret]

Significantly

[silver geyser]

Insanely so

[dull egret]

I like PF1 fighter and my main game place's home rule of giving them six skill ranks rather than 2 makes them

so much more fluff-able

[rustic cape]

Weirdly, it can be a better rogue than rogues, and unchained rogue can be a better fighter than fighter

[dull egret]

Slayers are like

the top-tier "standard" melee class

in the sense of "Guy in Armor, with Weapon" rather than a specialized mechanic

but Fighters have a lot of fun things in them and the bonus feats leaves a lot of wacky builds possible

they're still the best Polearm Defender class right?

[rustic cape]

Anyway in 1e the correct barbarian was bloodrager

[dull egret]

ya

[rustic cape]

Just a straightforwardly superior version

[dull egret]

even if you remove the Obvious Game-Breaker Archetype

genuinely (and this is more a game-design channel topic so I won't harp on it) Rage-Style classes in games always fascinate me

I know they're trying to do the Conan the Barbarian archetype of dude but, Conan only makes sense in the universe of Conan

it feels hard to justify Conan when armor actually Does Something in universe

[rustic cape]

Also Conan wears armor

[dull egret]

This is news

hang on

[fossil temple]

yeah

[dull egret]

Has the movie memory hole'd that fact?

in popular cultue?

[rustic cape]

On at least some occasions, in the books

He wears it when he can

[dull egret]

Ok so well case-in-point then lmao

[rustic cape]

Because he’s not an idiot

[dull egret]

VERY EXPLICITLY TOO

LIKE-

That also gets lost in trying to translate Conan's Vibe

he's fucking Cunning

[fossil temple]

I think who started with "Barbarians wear no armor" was D&D 5e or 4e
I think

[dull egret]

a very straightforward "how to Kill People Best" sort of cunning but STILL

[frank crystal]

I mean, if I’m being honest I don’t think the pop culture idea of getting angry to get stronger comes from Conan

[dull egret]

it's been a thing at least in the art since earlier

[frank crystal]

I feel like it comes more from the Hulk

Even if it’s not a fantasy example

[dull egret]

Also no you're right Magma I mean more the archetype of "Barbarian" as a like

Cohesive Whole

[frank crystal]

Ah

So the kinda, aesthetic of Conan

[dull egret]

which I feel draws from Conan and myths of viking Berserkers

[frank crystal]

At least the movie version

[rustic cape]

Yeah Conan is a brilliant tactician, an intuitive and cunning survivor, and a jungle cat of a warrior

[turbid dagger]

Yeah I don't think its PURELY riffing on Conan tbh
Like obviously they have the loincloth Beef Manchest aesthetic but like
He wasn't really known for insane battle rages even in the well known stuff
That's drawn more from like, berzerkers

[warped orbit]

Conan isn't really much of a Barbarian tbh

[turbid dagger]

Barbarian is only drawing on Conan's aesthetic
The other stuff comes from different places

[dull egret]

Which I feel is where the clash arises is the thing

[rustic cape]

Conan’s battle-fury does come up, but he’s not losing it or anything

[dull egret]

I should note where I'm coming from on this: I'm thinking on Class Fantasy here

each class as less a Game Mechanics Role and more an overall package of crunch and fluff

Barbarian feels confused in a lot of ways on that

[fossil temple]

yeah, but mechanically I think it was another whole thing.
At least leather armor they used if I am not mistaken

[dull egret]

sometimes

[rustic cape]

They could wear up to splint mail in AD&D 2e, iirc

[dull egret]

I should probably clarify, this may be a group-specific brainbug

[rustic cape]

In 3.5 armor turned off their fast movement but whatever

[dull egret]

but a lot of the people I play with are in the "You are an HP tank not an AC tank, why wear armor it's Cooler Not To"

[fossil temple]

oh god yeah that's a huge falacy

[frank crystal]

Is that good in 2e?

[rustic cape]

But armor is rad

[dull egret]

which while I get the impulse if that's the Goal of the class

[warped orbit]

pretty good

[dull egret]

the class does not do it lol

[solar storm]

pretty good iirc

[fossil temple]

like
NO , you havegood hp but by god don't tank with it

[warped orbit]

it's just below plate mail IIRC

[rustic cape]

A step below plate

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[dull egret]

2e Barb is Great

I have negative issues with 2e Barb

[turbid dagger]

Animal Barb gets Animal Skin so it can do both :33333

[dull egret]

because 2e's overall mechanics make playing Beef Hardchew easier

[frank crystal]

Wait dnd or PF?

[dull egret]

PF

PF

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[fossil temple]

PF2e Barba is so fun

[dull egret]

not 2e D&D god

[frank crystal]

We just brought up dnd 2e so I wanted to make sure

[dull egret]

I do not venture there lol

it scares me

[rustic cape]

Uh, D&D 1E barbarian was

Weird

[dull egret]

I've overthought this topic mostly because I've been doing my own system design

and want to integrate a Rage-Frontliner class in a more interesting way

[rustic cape]

No magic items, but various scaling bonuses

[turbid dagger]

I like PF2e barb a lot

[dull egret]

specifically the idea of the Bulldozer Tank

[fossil temple]

Didn't D&D1e barb was unable to read?

[rustic cape]

Oh the illiteracy thing goes up through 3.5

[turbid dagger]

Yeah I recall 3.5 having illiterate barb

[frank crystal]

Was it possible to learn?

[warped orbit]

AD&D Barb was very strange yeah

yes

[dull egret]

one of the many Idiosyncratic things of earlier D&D ya

[dull egret]

IIRC ya you were Grug Porkblast, you just Couldn't

[fossil temple]

Porkblast

[rustic cape]

Barb has always been burdened by being a Barbarian class rather than a berserker class

[warped orbit]

the AD&D Barb also did not have Rage or anything like that notably
it was more of a superstitious outdoors-y survivalist type

[fossil temple]

This

[warped orbit]

and then later it was introduced via the Berserker kit

which was actually for Fighter I believe

[echo briar]

exactly. the barbarian should be defined by its inability to speak Greek.

[dull egret]

LMAO

[fossil temple]

PPFFF Good one

[echo briar]

it should have exiting class features like pants or butter

[rustic cape]

Fun fact: the Persian stereotypes that the word “barbarian” related to were at various times defined by effeminacy and weakness

[dull egret]

Femboy Barbarians when

[fossil temple]

I think the Barbarian we most imagine is the stereotype of the Celtic in the Roman's vision

[turbid dagger]

Yeah I do think a more generic name like Rager or something would be appropriate by now
Because like
You don't need to be from The Tiger Clan to get mad and punch drywall, and no one is pretending that you do at this point

[frank crystal]

Twunk barbarians

[dull egret]

I

I'm going to refrain from further comment

anyway

[dull egret]

Also ya the energy I was working with in my own weird-system-that's-in-limbo is doing a like

"Trance Fighter" or "Bulldozer" class

[rustic cape]

Anyway yeah barbarian’s mechanics could benefit from a rebranding

[dull egret]

more defined by being a vanguard that runs people down with sheer force and then the "subclass" being How

[fossil temple]

Berserker I think is the most fitting name

[echo briar]

I would go more generic: does the class need to be defined by rage in particular?

[dull egret]

ranging from Rage to a battle trance or magic

[fossil temple]

The Rage is definitely a important factor for it's Glass Cannon-ness

[dull egret]

for the League Knowers in here, I feel like both Malphite and Sion would be that category

[rustic cape]

I would say rage is what defines a Barb/berserker class at this point, yeah

[echo briar]

I think the class should focus less on blind rage, but the clear magic they are channeling. Invoker would be a great name

[barren cipher]

invoker sounds like some kind of wizard or priest, unfortunately

[rustic cape]

Eh, that name just isn’t … warrior-y enough

[turbid dagger]

I suppose you could have it be any kind of like
Fighting State
But in GENERAL I think 'I'm wicked pissed' is the most natural route to Harder Punching, from a purely like
narrative/not realistic standpoint

[dull egret]

Actually also

[turbid dagger]

Nahhhh I don't want it to be a magic thing

[dull egret]

I have a proposal that will Cause Discussion

[echo briar]

then we need to get rid of most subclasses

[dull egret]

Monks and Barbarians, at least the "rage as a form of physical perfection" kind of the latter, can be mixed together vibes wise

[frank crystal]

Also for PF2E in particular, rage is a damage buff at the cost of AC nerf

[surreal basin]

I mean a lot of Barbarians are magic
It’s pretty hard to make multiple entirely different ways to get angry

[turbid dagger]

I mean, not NECESSARILY

[frank crystal]

Which is very evocative of losing yourself in rage

[turbid dagger]

magic

Not 'you must be doing magic' as a default

[frank crystal]

You swing wildly and with all your strength

[echo briar]

then why are the magic ones magic?

[barren cipher]

i think you're always going to have to compromise on naming if you're trying to fit, like, 'generic berserker' and 'cu chulainn' and 'my dad boffed a dragon' into one class

[surreal basin]

Ahhh okay

[frank crystal]

Even if you give up some defense

[fossil temple]

DON'T BRING MONK INTO THIS
Some people already say Monk should not even be a thing and it breaks the entire vibe

[echo briar]

like, how is rage connected to dragon fire?

[dull egret]

I'm in the latter camp lmao

I understand the fun of monk but the more I think on it the more my head hurts

[clever cobalt]

What are we talking about?

[fossil temple]

Look
Just go with inner strength and ki shit and you will be gucci, don't overthink on temples

[dull egret]

Class Fantasy/Power Fantasy of Barbarian being weird

[turbid dagger]

That's not what I'm saying, things are getting confused
I'm saying I wouldn't like it if the default assumption of all barbarian instincts is 'magic is empowering you'

[surreal basin]

Yeah I feel like we’ve drifted off of pathfinder a little

[dull egret]

and ways to make it more coherant

[echo briar]

yea, but the name needs to cover all of it

[surreal basin]

Like, monk and Barbarian both have distinct mechanical niches in pathfinder and that’s all it needs

And monk fits into golarion extremely well

[dull egret]

I had warned this could devolve

and ya tbh I think

Golarion is the one D&D setting I've seen make Monk work?

Irori, at the very least, gives a good permanent justification for them to be Anywhere

[echo briar]

unless we want to split the class in two, which is an option

[fossil temple]

Golorion
D&D setting
Wut

[dull egret]

twas 3.5 originally

[fossil temple]

huh

[dull egret]

it's its own thing now but the Remnants remain

Ya

[fossil temple]

the more you know

[turbid dagger]

You know what he means anyway
Its the D&D-O-Sphere

[surreal basin]

I think that all the “blank can just be a fighter subclass” fellas forget that mechanics seperate things as well as thematics

[dull egret]

pathfinder was a 3.5 module set originally

[fossil temple]

but well, how Golorian justify Monks nicely?

[dull egret]

it Became Better

[dull egret]

Irori

there is a god of physical perfection/enlightenment that is trans-continental and not entirely Orientalism

[clever cobalt]

Plenty of ways to justify monks in Golarion imo

[turbid dagger]

Only mostly orientalism

[surreal basin]

Yeah also just having multiple different groups of monks with different aesthetics

[dull egret]

True, Irori isn't the only one

[surreal basin]

Tbh I don’t think you can really call it orientalism anymore

Unless any Asian theming at all is orientalism

[fossil temple]

I would love to hear the others because god i need it

[rapid wagon]

monks in 2e are also a lot less hardcore orientalist i think; as class features they don't come standard with ki or like running on water n stuff

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[fossil temple]

you can say Brad from Lisa the Painful is a monk but he was trained in Karate...

[dull egret]

2e monk sands off the elements I find uncomfortable a lot but the general thing is just the

[rustic cape]

Also, class demarcations help players sort through options and find a set of mechanics/archetypes that appeals to how they want to play

[dull egret]

Overall Assumption that "Monk" means "Unarmed guy who uses Ki"

it's sort of a Martial-Arts tradition slurry

which is the awkward bit, 2e makes it more coherantly its Own Thing rather than trying to ape something

[frank crystal]

Brad is honestly a really good monk

[turbid dagger]

But yeah I do think they're doing better, I'm just kind of poking fun for The Various 1e Sins
Let Them Never Be Forgotten

[frank crystal]

Like the dude just throws fireballs

[dull egret]

indeed

1e is full of Sin, but it's also fun

[clever cobalt]

Yeah Monk in 2e is more "martial artist", minus (most) of the orientalism

[fossil temple]

Love him
Just
Would never like to actually be in a room with him

[rapid wagon]

in 2e i think monks are more just "a guy who likes to fist fight and is good at it" now, and then you can take them in the direction of a more fantastical orientalist take or into a more brawler vibe, or somewhere inbetween

[rustic cape]

People like games with classes in part because classes help process information and create clear mechanical boundaries

[clever cobalt]

Yeah, agreed

[frank crystal]

Just never be in the way of his goals

In any capacity

Maybe just where he’s walking

[fossil temple]

true

[clever cobalt]

Anyways, speaking of orientalism, what are some fun builds for a FotRP?

:v

[surreal basin]

For a

[rapid wagon]

monk in 2e just be "guy who is willing to throw hands at any time"

[surreal basin]

Fucking what

[unborn rain]

Literally so close to being good

I really hope the remaster 'fixes' monk

[clever cobalt]

Fist of the Ruby Phoenix

[surreal basin]

Ohhhh

[turbid dagger]

I like Animal Barb with Ape for the 'brute force street brawler' but I also love Monk for sure

[fossil temple]

Ok but the stances are basically saying "YO YOU LIKE KUNG FU?!"

[clever cobalt]

Not sure how "a" got in there

[rapid wagon]

does the monk need to be fixed? I like the stances myself, as a mechanic

[dull egret]

Stances are goofy IMO

they work

still goofy

[surreal basin]

I know it was for the joke but tbh Ruby Phoenix is fine

[fossil temple]

Not saying he needs to be fixed, but monk stances makes him slam on orientalism a lot

[unborn rain]

I mean the social implications of its name and it use of "Monk Weapons"

[dull egret]

ya "monk weapons" are a...curious tradition

[echo briar]

the fact that FoB can be taken wholesale via multiclass is weird

[frank crystal]

The fact they’re all named after animals found east of Europe…

[surreal basin]

Ah yes

Wolves

[dull egret]

Also I will say ya Monk stances aren't The Uncomfortable (TM)

[frank crystal]

I mean not exclusively found east of Europe

[dull egret]

they're more Goofy

[fossil temple]

We have mongolian wolves...

[frank crystal]

You can find wolves everywhere

[clever cobalt]

Yeah, I just was making a joke (as you said)

[fossil temple]

Where can I find dragons?

[dull egret]

Wales

[clever cobalt]

The Battle Zoo

[unborn rain]

This Chat

[fossil temple]

Fucking WALES

[surreal basin]

Tbh I think “are monks orientalist in concept” is kinda a beaten horse

As a discussion

[dull egret]

Ye

[turbid dagger]

[rapid wagon]

i gues what's the proposed "fix"? Rename the monk "fighter" and fold all the features into optionals for it?

[dull egret]

my beef with 2e stances is that I don't like Stance mechanics

[surreal basin]

Why

[fossil temple]

Oh yeah, it was mostly about "Does monk fit in an mostly european medieval setting?"

[surreal basin]

Which Golarion isn’t anymore!

[clever cobalt]

I find stance mechanics fine, personally

[dull egret]

I understand their design intent but they misunderstand why Stances IRL exist

[fossil temple]

exactly
I like monk

[barren cipher]

yeah, but it's fantasy

[rapid wagon]

stances seem cool to me, i havent played with em yet, but i enjoy the idea of stance weaving and or specializing into a stance as a specific fighting style

[dull egret]

I have fixed this myself by just calling them Installs lol

[turbid dagger]

Monk and Fighter play vastly different
Like mechanically
This is something thats already been discussed in like, the last 10 minutes
Classes ain't just their flavor

[clever cobalt]

Yeah Golarion 2e is like

[surreal basin]

I don’t think they do misunderstand it
I think they just don’t care lmao

[clever cobalt]

Vastly superior to Golarion 1e

[rapid wagon]

and they're done a lot better than 1e fighting styles imo, with feat chaines

[dull egret]

I don't have full Design Beef it's a personal one

[clever cobalt]

Imo

[frank crystal]

You joke but also I have seen articles saying the only classes should be fighter and wizard lol

[fossil temple]

WHAT

[frank crystal]

One martial and one spellcaster

These people are real

[dull egret]

True, I am being a pedant about it

[barren cipher]

they don't even want an expert?

bold

[fossil temple]

Do they even play the fucking game

[surreal basin]

By the same margin we can have the discussion that Paizo misunderstood guns

And swords

And spears

[frank crystal]

I found the article while searching for rogue art because it was about how much they hated what the making of rogue did for the game

In like

[fossil temple]

They fucking misunderstood the blunderbuss that's for sure

[frank crystal]

Advanced dnd

[unborn rain]

Guns in real life are for cowards but in PF people who use guns are mechanically forced to be cool

[echo briar]

They also misunderstood magic. IRL, it does not work

[dull egret]

idk why it's different for me, but Guns being like that is more acceptable to my brain

for the sole reason of Real Guns would be less fun

[barren cipher]

i got in trouble on the pathfinder 2e server for saying this

[rapid wagon]

I understand this, which is why I asked the question. A lot of classes come coded greater or lesser degrees of cultural baggage ultimately. Not to say monks not got orientalism issues

[warped orbit]

oh yeah, people originally really did not like Rogues (then Thieves) and how they codified interacting with certain things

[fossil temple]

I just want
Cone Shotgun
But Scattergun works more like a mortal
Is all I ask
I need to wait for Starfinder 2e to fix that

[dull egret]

Ok actually

I'm going to drop a nuke into the chat

[fossil temple]

Gunslinger Vanguards wants you to use a scattergun but it makes no sense to use a scattergun use a sniper instead

[clever cobalt]

I can't wait for SF2e and go full Dakka

[dull egret]

Trapfinding being required for magical traps: Go

[clever cobalt]

Gun time

[rustic cape]

No

[unborn rain]

Either Monk needs to start getting feats to do with the making copies of the bible and speaking latin

or it needs to have a French Boxing feat /j

[fossil temple]

YES

[turbid dagger]

Also uhhh
Doesn't have to do with this complex chaotic discussion at all, but
This just came out of our game:

[clever cobalt]

At least 1

[dull egret]

Several

[warped orbit]

absolutely not

[frank crystal]

It’s not really helped by there just not being enough good scatter weapons

[surreal basin]

Guns and Gears was during what I like to call Paizos era of Coward Design where they were terrified of both creep and repeating 1e’s mistakes so everything within it is a little limp

[fossil temple]

How big is rat?

[surreal basin]

And do you mean trapfinding the feature?

Like in 2e?

[clever cobalt]

I like the Automaton ancestry

[unborn rain]

It's a lot of rat I think, rats generally small people generally pretty big

[surreal basin]

Yeah that’s pretty good

[clever cobalt]

Though I wish it was a heritage sorta

[warped orbit]

I do think that's a generally fair assessment

[dull egret]

1e

[clever cobalt]

A versatile heritage vs an ancestry

[turbid dagger]

Our Fleshwarp, Goblin, and my Lizardfolk are all hankering after the rat a talking cat that's been following us has brought
And the fleshwarp is offering to share the one rat between the three people

[rapid wagon]

Start including monastic traditions from the world round. Be a scribe friar. Brew gin as a class feature, or make czech beer!

[dull egret]

I don't actually know if it's the same thing in 2e but in 1e it was mandatory to be able to disarm a magic trap

of any variety

[fossil temple]

https://www.wargamer.com/wp-content/sites/wargamer/2023/08/warhammer-40k-skaven-screaming.jpg this one?
1
realistic? 0
You are dead

[echo briar]

anyways, the only thing I think the remaster needs to "fix" with the monk is that I think a level 11 or so class feature would be appreciated. doesn't need to be big, but when I play one they feel slightly lacking at that point

[warped orbit]

in PF2 Trapfinding just gives you passive checks to find traps, even if you aren't Searching as your exploration activity
and you get a small bonus for interacting with them

[dull egret]

SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT