Pathfinder

[scenic patio]

Interesting

[limber comet]

Based Luis, as always

It's so awesome to see Pathfinder grow away from the outdated D&D stereotypes

[rapid wagon]

i feel like human is totally fine for an animist too tbh

[carmine egret]

Poppet Animist for Haunted Doll energy

Or even if you're not leaning into spookiness, a child's toy communicating with unseen entities seems appropriate

[turbid dagger]

More or less any race is gonna be totally fine, I think they were just looking for flavorful picks
Races with a particularly spiritual or religious society

[carmine egret]

You could stretch the fluff and do an Android that's connecting to past lives they've lived

[craggy thunder]

ooo, I just had an idea

This is a heritage, not an ancestry

But a duskwalker

that reaches out to the previous duskwalker(s) whose slot they took when the previous one died

[fossil temple]

is he single? Great work!

[clever cobalt]

Random idea for a Starfinder crossover:

The Union (from Lancer) shows up/is found

Granted I'm pretty sure the Union is bigger than the Pact Worlds, Veskarium, and Azlanti Empire combined

[light gyro]

spellwrack sounds pretty cracked

[silver geyser]

Correct

[solar storm]

Kitsune seem good

[light gyro]

fluffy.....

gnolls are big into communing with spirits too

[crude socket]

https://tenor.com/view/fox-beiyi-yae-miko-gif-4068773935841728510

[surreal basin]

Alright

so I think I have the baseline statblocks I wanna base my final boss on planned out

https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=11

First phase is this guy, with some angelic qualities added on, + special attacks from his thermonuclear lance

and then for his true form which he mutates into after he dies

https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1342

I wanna modify the titan to be more of like

an angelic abomination, the true form of an archangel pushed to the brink

Hmmm or maybe I won’t use the pleroma….

Ooo or maybe the new angel dragon for the true form

[rapid wagon]

im guessing pf2e adventure paths dive a bit more into tian xia?

[echo briar]

Session of ghosts is the only one so far that focuses on it

Others briefly go there at best

[solar tendon]

ruby phoenix?

[echo briar]

I forgot about that lol

[rapid wagon]

ruby phoenix was like a big... fighting tournament style adventure? I have only foggy recollection

[turbid dagger]

Yep
Also the big lore book for tian Xia is next up for release

[rustic cape]

The full animist and exemplar still haven’t been released, right?

[solar storm]

Nope

It’ll probably be like fall 2024 or something for them

[scenic patio]

Yeah there in the “War of the immortals” core book which focuses on deities and planes which is out Fall my guess is that there going to replace two gods in the book Asmodues and some one else

[warped orbit]

we don't know who is getting replaced yet

[rapid wagon]

aroden making a comeback lets go

[clever cobalt]

The current big guess (that I've seen) is Saranrae

But we don't know for sure

[limber comet]

Only one big God is dying

[scenic patio]

I’d be personally surprised if it was her

[limber comet]

There are hints at it in APs

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah I forgot the world guide isn’t out yet

For tian xia

I still don’t think they’re gonna kill her just cause that’s a huge downer

[barren cipher]

if i were in charge of marketing and someone suggested killing sarenrae, i would push them down the stairs

[rustic cape]

Kill Nethys

Go wild

Just off the freakin’ god of magic and let all hell break lose

[rapid wagon]

kill asmodeus and see how many ongoing deals/pacts/contracts fall through immediately

[barren cipher]

nethys, while almost certainly powerful enough to prevent any such attempt on his life, says "exciting, let's go along with this!"

[frank crystal]

Spellplague… TWO!

[rapid wagon]

kill pharasma, start an undead apocalypse, again!

also pharasma dying would be the death of the supposedly oldest being there is

[echo briar]

Honestly, I think it will be whoever we suspect least, like Abadar.

Communist revolution, all the bankers are gone

[rapid wagon]

kill rovagug

[barren cipher]

rovagug is dead, which means that all the people who were working together to prevent him from destroying the universe now have a lot of free time and no common cause with one another

[rustic cape]

That … actually sounds plausible

Like for a story called War of Immortals

That sounds pretty much like it’d get a war going

[rapid wagon]

I think in the far future, after the Gap, the gods say that rovagug is still secure

[solar tendon]

that could be rovagug 2 who knows

or secure(ly dead)

[rapid wagon]

incidentally it might not be saraenrae either since she lives into starfinder times

unless time is wibbly wobbly for gods and she dies simultaneously at two points in time

[surreal basin]

They’ve said starfinder canon will not effect WOI

[rapid wagon]

interesting, i understood them to be the same canon seperated by an unknown period of time that passed between

which is why they have all the same gods and more

[surreal basin]

That was mostly people’s understanding

[rapid wagon]

Easy fix, literary masterkey phrase: "Somehow, Saraenrae returned"

[barren cipher]

golarion is just, like, filed off starfinder isn't it?

the legendary lost world of golarion has its own theme park now

[rapid wagon]

Golarion's just gone in starfinder, all thats left is a big ass space station called Absalom

supposedly not destroyed, but just gone

[rustic cape]

Gone fishin’

[solar tendon]

starfinder is the future but it could be like

alternate timeline still

[barren cipher]

obscure god of No Space Travel, Please murdered on golarion by time travellers

[rapid wagon]

a new god shows up in war of the immortals specifically jsut to die

the god of comedic timing

[warped orbit]

no one knows what happened, that's what The Gap is about

even the gods don't know, or if they do they are not telling

[rapid wagon]

the gods who do know what happened aint telling either

yeah

[turbid dagger]

As an aside, this was in response to 'its gonna be zon and/or shelyn because its Zon-Shelyn in Starfinder'
Which makes me sad because my guess genuinely was gonna be Zon Kuthon
Not for any Starfinder reasons its just something which I think would make sense

[surreal basin]

I mean I still think it might happen and they were throwing us off

[warped orbit]

it seems very plausible

[surreal basin]

Zon Kuthon dying and Shelyn becoming goth would be an interesting thing to do the moment alignment was dropped

[warped orbit]

yeah

[limber comet]

The far realm eats him

[clever cobalt]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6siff?Lost-Omens-Special-Recap#:~:text=Pathfinder Lost Omens Divine Mysteries&text=As part of this announcement,is joining the core twenty

Somehow I misses this

Glad to see Tian Xia is moving beyond "Japan/China Orientalism Hybrid"

[sinful gyro]

Arazni hype

I hope they do well with Tian Xia in that department

Afaik they hired a bunch of folks to give imput on cultural sensitivity in the setting

Including our own Winged

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

Also one of Gubat Banwa's writers iirc?

Paizo has done a good job not being racist in 2e

[sinful gyro]

I'm not sure but I think so?

[clever cobalt]

Lets hope they continue the streak

[solar tendon]

makapatag is working on it yeah

[scenic patio]

As a chainsaw man fan I would find it very amusing if they made demons more like the devils in CSM in that they are metaphysical apparitions of concepts

[clever cobalt]

Hmm

I would love a LO Casmaron book personally

But that's probably in the future, if a bit far off

[turbid dagger]

As I understand it Sakhils are the closest to CSM devils
In that they embody various common phobias

Though in the Sakhil's case its more 'feeds on fear' rather than 'is the fear itself'

[limber comet]

Sakhils are cool

[eager mountain]

for some reason I thought it was holding a party streamer and I was like

https://tenor.com/view/celebrate-celebration-gif-11529744

[eager mountain]

birb hype

[light gyro]

psychopomp AP when 👁️

[clever cobalt]

I think some people here may be interested in this, James Case replied to a post I made in the PF2e discoed

[sinful gyro]

Sounds like a positive move

[rustic cape]

Seems reasonable

[clever cobalt]

Also, if I wanted to make a character somewhat based on Meti (in the sense of "medicant, irreverant dirty warrior who's actually really good at fighting"), do you think Fighter would work best for that idea?

Or a Magus

[tough perch]

i think magus feels like a fighter wizard

so if you make meti as a magus it'd be "medicant, irreverent dirty warrior wizard "

[craggy thunder]

THEY CAN WRITE WITH THEIR LIL FEETS!!!

[tough perch]

so what i'd do is pick fighter

[craggy thunder]

I'd go monk fighter tbh

[tough perch]

a good one, specially if it's free archetype

[clever cobalt]

Monk Fighter could work yeah

this is purely conceptual btw

[rustic cape]

I’d do fighter with a side of monk

[clever cobalt]

not doing naything with this character, at least not yet

[rustic cape]

Meti not having legendary sword proficiency would feel wrong

[scenic patio]

Mmmm I have a set up going in which the PC's need to go through some abandoned mines in order to clear out a path to the adjacent valley, but I am drawing a blank on what monsters or foes to place in said mine🤔

[rustic cape]

What’s the mine for?

[sinful gyro]

There's a whole bunch of earth elementals, rock monsters etc you can draw from

I had my players fight a genie in a mine who had turned it into a sorta soul gambling den

[scenic patio]

The mine was once a functional mine, with an additional discovery of magical crystals. However, the ordinal purpose was to connect as part of a tunnel.

[sinful gyro]

Shaitan I think? The earth genie

But if you don't want to go that route, who else might use this tunnel

Smugglers?

Some folks after the crystals?

Maybe a rock floor well away and it's connected to a larger deeper network full of bad stuff now

[scenic patio]

I should mention this campagin is a form software style game in which theirs only one "safe city" in a long dying kingdom i.e. demon souls.

[sinful gyro]

Ah well, maybe people tried to hide in the mine before the collapse

And they got lost in ancient passage ways

And over time they..
Changed

[scenic patio]

ooo murlocks

[sinful gyro]

Ye

[scenic patio]

good idea. low lvl as well.

mostly...

[sinful gyro]

Yeah like, mechanically you can just make them kobold or something but i think there is like a murlock enemy type?

I fought something like that in Abom vaults

[scenic patio]

yes some a a little high for the pc's, but they're going to get a floor, same with earth Elementals.

Its 4 floors basiclly.

[sinful gyro]

Don't forget you can lower the enemy level by 1 to

[scenic patio]

ture easy on foundry as well

[solar storm]

(from /u/slosharts)

[turbid dagger]

'nooooooo you need to suceed at skill actions!!! your just worse fighter!!!!!'
'haha bleeding finisher go brrrrrrr'

Also:
Its finally happened to me 😔

[silver geyser]

RIP

[warped orbit]

F

[turbid dagger]

Fortunately the save only did 14 of my 60
Could have been a lot worse for a solo enemy

[warped orbit]

damn, only 14 on a crit fail?

pretty lucky

[turbid dagger]

Yeah the save did 7, basic fortitude
He is Stunned 2 but Summoner Moment

[warped orbit]

oh oof

[hidden raptor]

hey pathfinder folks, has anyone run March of the Dead from Book of the Dead, and if so, any tips?

[solar storm]

Which one is that?

I’ve read them but not run them myself

[craggy thunder]

So

Divine Magus?

really good at fucking up undead

[rustic cape]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1122 A divine magus would get this spell, which is pretty good for that

[solar tendon]

@unborn rain has, I played in it

[unborn rain]

I've ran half of it, the top side half

[solar tendon]

our characters were like we are in over our head scawy

[unborn rain]

I ran with 3 players instead of 4, and didn't change any of the encounters because it was my first time GMing pathfinder

It went pretty well considering, although they did have to hit the bricks after the like first half boss

[hidden raptor]

it's the adventure that comes with the Book of the Dead

kinda just some standard undead fare

[rapid wagon]

i got a buddy who wants to run the blood lords adventure

been trying to come up with cool characters for that

[carmine egret]

any contenders?

[solar storm]

Ahh, it’s a cool one but I don’t have good advice since I wasn’t never able to run it

[hidden raptor]

ah, well, alas

it is really really cool

I'm a huge fan of it, and I'm hoping to run it for my local board game club pretty soon

[frank crystal]

You can’t use weapons while in dragon form right?

From the dragon form spell?

[solar tendon]

you can only make attacks given by the form yeah

[frank crystal]

Ah alright

[solar tendon]

it's under battle forms in the polymorph trait

[warped orbit]

Battle forms generally only let you use the stuff from the form

[frank crystal]

What’s a good archetype or multiclass for a polearms character?

[barren cipher]

mauler

(if you aren’t a fighter)

[frank crystal]

They are a magus

So yah

[sinful gyro]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/GdVHMblXqA

Sanrae is so fuckin dead

[turbid dagger]

Bro WHAT

I mean like
That does kind of lock it in

[solar tendon]

it could change for a variety of reasons tbf

[turbid dagger]

'oh yeah this pantheon with 3 motherfuckers in it will be changing as a result'
hm
hmmmmmmm

[solar tendon]

not all of these are necessarily related to the core god dying though

like it says an orc god is dying

not saying it's wrong to be suspicious but in the spirit of outlining exactly what is being said

[turbid dagger]

Not necessarily sarenrae but it feels like one of those three is dying at that point

[sinful gyro]

So I mentioned this before but orcs have a death tradition where they go on to fight a god to take their place

And that happened at the end of a recent pathfinder society adventure

[turbid dagger]

TBH I can't actually remember the identity of any of the orc gods

[solar tendon]

interestingly this list doesn't include the bit about a goddess being torn in half

[sinful gyro]

So even if the god that's dying from the core 20 isn't killed by ORC. The orc god might be

[barren cipher]

you can probably get torn in half and still be fine right

[sinful gyro]

I mean one of the gods is just bones in their lower half

And they do fine

[solar tendon]

I mean yeah people do it relatively often

I will repeat my statement that it would be really funny if pharasma went feral and tore urgathoa in half

[sinful gyro]

Lotta folks seem to think it's Phrasma on the chopping block

Personally I disagree

[barren cipher]

i think i’m still on for rovagug though

[turbid dagger]

Pharasma seems extremely core to the setting
Like I get 'its gonna shake things up' but Pharasma essentially underpins the entire outer planes cosmology

[barren cipher]

seems like the best choice for a general all out war where a lot of people get deleted

[solar tendon]

my take on the pr is that like taking it from a fan favourite detail to a significant denomination in the setting would be a change

[turbid dagger]

Unless they say 'sorting souls is now being done directly by psychopomps' or something

[sinful gyro]

Yeah like, I imagine if it is pharamsa, death will still occur

And souls will still mostly go to the right place

But it'll be more open to corruption or influence by other factions

Demons and devils taking souls not belonging to them

[turbid dagger]

Saw this in the thread, I approve now actually

Get Nocticula in there

[rustic cape]

Nocticula needs some time to figure out who she is by herself >_>

[turbid dagger]

She's had time! She's been taking time since wrath of the righteous 1e dropped!!

[warped orbit]

I'm still hoping for the Shelyn goth/emo arc due to Zon Kuthon dying

[turbid dagger]

This is my hope also

And/Or Zon Kuthon redemption arc from Shelyn dying
This would be extremely spicy but I think him shaking off the outer realms funk and taking on her domains would be hype

[limber comet]

Wouldn't it be fucked up if Desna got sniped

[surreal basin]

I don’t want any of the Prismatic Ray to die 🥺

[frank crystal]

Wait do gate Attenuator’s not increase the damage die of blasts?

[turbid dagger]

No
Blasts Heighten their damage dice natively like other impulses

You only need the Attenuator to scale your to-hit

[frank crystal]

ohhhhhhhhhhhh

[turbid dagger]

Truly
My Hobgoblin Fighter managed to sic Amiri on him during the initial feast so that was fun

[surreal basin]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/RiPqcAfUHF

[light gyro]

hypercognition is certainly a spell

(obviously not absurdly busted since it forbids any kind of secondary effects, but it definitely seems like it can slow a session to a crawl)

[unborn rain]

Using Hypercognition with terrible intelligence

[fossil temple]

Has anyone tried making a Merchant character? How it was?

[turbid dagger]

How do you mean? Like just thematically, or the background

[fossil temple]

Both!

[turbid dagger]

Well, the toughest thing is probably figuring out why they are adventuring instead of sitting in town
Class wise a lot could work

[fossil temple]

I was thinking Scoundrel Rogue
And motive wise? "Those magic items aren't gonna find themselves"

Or be stolen

"Nono sir, I am not a thief, I am a treasure hunter"
Class: Thief.

[turbid dagger]

I was thinking Scoundrel Rogue myself yeah
As they get Predictive Purchase and all that

[fossil temple]

and are very open to scam people

[warped orbit]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/197blom/i_designed_a_holy_symbol_for_the_prismatic_ray/
that's a really cool design

[fossil temple]

Like a pantheon of the 3?

[warped orbit]

yes, the Prismatic Ray

it's a pantheon/polycule of Sarenrae, Desna, and Shelyn

[turbid dagger]

The Prismatic Ray is a pantheon showed off in a blog post explaining the design ethos behind pantheons
Semi canon I guess you'd say?
Desna Shelyn and Sarenrae yeah

[fossil temple]

Oh i see, thank ya

[unborn rain]

It's not semi canon it just is canon, It's mentioned in other stuff iirc

[craggy thunder]

Yeah it's a pantheon you can pick for your god stuff for champ or cleric too

[solar tendon]

someone in the pf2e reddit mentioned that the prismatic spells are gone in remaster? so the change could be a rename

[unborn rain]

Phantasmagoric Ray

[solar tendon]

I hope it becomes a like

full archetype of spells at all levels

yeah prismatic spray didn't get reprinted based on pathbuilder. so it's kinda a pun without an origin now

[fossil temple]

Pathbuilder is updated on the new rules

[solar tendon]

yes

[fossil temple]

nice :3c

wanderers guide, I love you, but you gotta keep with the times

[fossil temple]

Honestly, the way Wanderer's Guide did the Kineticist was disappointing

[surreal basin]

Yeah?

[fossil temple]

They kinda just
threw the kineticist stuff on a huge block of text and said "You do the rest"

[turbid dagger]

Yeahhhhhh uhhhh
I'm generally of the opinion that just paying two dollars for pathbuilder premium is better

[fossil temple]

Honestly
Yeah

But I LOVE WG's UI over Pathbuilder's

[clever cobalt]

Yeah Pathbuilder Premium is well worth it imo

[fossil temple]

Since Starfinder 2e will be compatible with Pathfinder 2e, do you think Pathbuilder will integrate SF2e stuff on it?

[surreal basin]

Maybe? I could see them making a second site or second mode

Especially since I think pathbuilder receives special privileges from Paizo

So I wouldn’t be surprised if they were encouraged to support it in some way

[paper inlet]

Starbuilder

[eager mountain]

its not " semi-canon"

[turbid dagger]

What I meant by it is that afaik it hasn't actually shown up in a book, just a blog post thats 'this is what pantheons are like'

[heavy fulcrum]

the pantheon is just an example but the relationship is canonical

[solar tendon]

the prismatic plate appeared in grand bazaar and directly references the pantheon

[heavy fulcrum]

oh huh youre right

With its standard-grade mithral polished to a mirrorlike sheen, this +2 resilient glamered mithral breastplate features the religious symbols of the goddesses of the Prismatic Ray pantheon—Desna, Sarenrae, and Shelyn—surrounded by a rainbow-colored set of gems.

[turbid dagger]

Oh neat!

[echo briar]

If you get deadly and fatal on the same weapon, they stack right?

[warped orbit]

Yep

[eager mountain]

What weapon has that tho?

[warped orbit]

Nothing by default

But there's ways to add deadly to weapons

[fossil temple]

Runes are love

[warped orbit]

I was actually thinking of stuff like Inventor and Assassin mostly

[fossil temple]

sadly, no way to turn an ranged weapon into a repeating one, not even with inventor

[craggy thunder]

Repeating Phalanx Piercer

[fossil temple]

wot

[warped orbit]

the Phalanx Piercer having Reload 1 is just so sad

[fossil temple]

oh, yeah

Gonna have to wait till Starfinder for the kool guns

like
the Barricade Buster buster had such cool potention but is just
Bad ;w;

[warped orbit]

Barricade Buster is actually decent, just not for Gunslingers ironically

but it can work for a gun Fighter potentially

and you just Double/Triple Shot with it

[fossil temple]

.
Gun Fighter, huh

[solar tendon]

hunted shot ranger can be a fun idea too

[fossil temple]

Ranger with a gattling gun does sound fun

[solar tendon]

it's basically an alt composite longbow

but yknow gun flavour

and you can technically dump strength if you wanna deal with tripods n such

[fossil temple]

yeah the tripods is a good way to deal with the str requirement

[frank crystal]

So my druid used summon kaiju last session

Man that spell is sick

[fossil temple]

do tell

[surreal basin]

NPC has summon animals (spiders only) at a level that could be helpful to them
"oh sweet that's coo-"
there are no spiders at the appropriate levels to actually summon

[unborn rain]

you gotta make your own

[surreal basin]

that feels slightly like cheating

[fossil temple]

If I were to beg for money in the street during downtime, would it be Subsist roll?

Even if i technically have the money to live ok and just want pocket change

[unborn rain]

Pathfinders creatures math is solid, so as long as you follow the creature making rule it should be fine

give it one or two abilities that other spiders have, like a venom or something

[surreal basin]

Oh I have a module that can scale enemies to the correct levels

AHAHA

I HAVE FOUND A CREATURE

FROM A RANDOM ADVENTURE

[fossil temple]

And remember, not nescessarely a higher level creature means it will be more useful

[surreal basin]

THAT IS THE APPROPRIATE LEVEL

[fossil temple]

a lv0 animated hand can be massively powerful and useful

[surreal basin]

Eh with the way math works in pathfinder 2e only specific creatures remain good to summon in combat

Since being about 3-4 levels below someone makes you extremely unlikely to effect them with abilities that involve math

[unborn rain]

Depends on what you're fighting but yeah at best it is attacking something on level

[fossil temple]

I mean crawling hand* fuck

[unborn rain]

if you can find something with an extreme attack mod it gets better

[fossil temple]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=589

[unborn rain]

summoning something to go attack a wizard or something which has bad AC.

summoning is situational but not useless

[turbid dagger]

That's a Society Subsist as depicted in the book yeah
You wouldn't be able to earn money tho, just food and shelter

[surreal basin]

IMO it still has pretty major issues but that’s just me

Summoning in this system I mean

[unborn rain]

Summoning definetly has big issues, I just disagree with the often told sentiment that it's always bad

Summoning is like a thing which shouldnt be as situational as it is

[surreal basin]

I mean I don’t think it’s ALWAYS bad just

Usually

And in combat if you aren’t using your highest slot on it uhh

Anything involving math is unlikely to work

[turbid dagger]

I have one funny memory of summoning a Mitflit during a big bossfight solely so my Eidolon could use it for flanking. and critting the big boss as a result
But its odd yeah

[warped orbit]

it's not completely bad, but it is pretty hard to actually make useful

it also has a weird curve of summons getting worse over time

at level 1 is the time summons are at their all time best

which seems odd

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Summoning a level 15 creature with a 10th level slot is

Pretty bad

[turbid dagger]

Yeah like
PL -4 is 'worthless little shits, throw these at your players in swarms'
And also notably the lowest level the encounter balance rules section has on its PL+/- tables
So PL-5 is uhhhhhhh

[frank crystal]

Honestly I would agree because mathematically you’re correct

But I just had a session recently where a level 20 character used dinosaur fort and the t-rexs it summoned survived and helped the entire encounter

So I’m not sure I can disregard it anymore

[surreal basin]

Anecdotal fallacy, opinion disregarded (I’m joking)

Yeah again I mostly mean like

Broad strokes

• the summon spells only summon a single entity

And those trexs aren’t minions

[turbid dagger]

I did not know of this spell until now
That shit is
Ridiculous

[warped orbit]

Dinosaur Fort is very funny

[frank crystal]

Oh true yah

[warped orbit]

it was born entirely of someone making a typo when writing Dinosaur Form lmao

[frank crystal]

It would have been much worse if they had to spend an action every turn to tell the T-rexs to do stuff

[warped orbit]

and then they decided to make it an actual spell later

[surreal basin]

As someone who had a player who like

Played a Conjuration wizard for years up til the remaster

The Summon spells need help

Pretty desperately

It’s a houserule of ours that they just summon elite guys which kinda helps

[young chasm]

paizo nerfed summons in general pretty hard from how powerful they were in 1e

i wouldn't mind if they got some buffs but honestly? i kinda also agree that they don't need a buff at the same time

i feel like a summon should never be around the power level of a party member

[surreal basin]

even a PL-2 wouldn't ever be at the power level of a party member

[young chasm]

yeah this is true, and to be fair the reasons listed above don't prevent it from feeling like shit to play lol

[surreal basin]

tbh NPCs in general never will be

if they don't want summons to be useful in combat they just

should make it clear that they're out of combat spells

[young chasm]

another reason why i wouldn't mind summons getting a buff is how they're handled in combat actually

like they don't have their own initiative

the three action economy system enables summoners (not the class) to have several summons and still only have it be a single turn yknow?

[warped orbit]

I mean yeah
but also animal companions exist already

and are mostly just better than summons

[young chasm]

well i mean

you don't want an animal companion to die

with summons you freely don't have to care if they do or don't

but i do think there are some hidden gem summons

at level 1 conjuration wizards can summon a plague zombie which has 50 hp

granted the zombie only has one action but thats such a massive meatbag of hp you can shield your party with yknow?

[solar tendon]

summons do too many things which means it can't be good at any of them which means its not really good at much of anything

should just get more spiritual weapons and incarnate type things

leave summoning npc profiles to rituals

[warped orbit]

Tbh, picking summons directly from monsters is also a part I don't like

They should be set blocks like forms already are

But also yeah more Incarnate summons would be great

[solar tendon]

heck even protector tree

could be reflavoured to a defensive summon

[frank crystal]

Can you use meta strikes while in battle forms?

[barren cipher]

provided you fulfil all the conditions, why not

[frank crystal]

Alright

[surreal basin]

Yeah you can

They usually have to be ones that allow unarmed attacks but

[frank crystal]

[limber comet]

I am thinking about scimitar exemplar

[frank crystal]

Hmm, my GM is finally letting us choose free archetype for our games

What would be a good archetype for a dragon eidolon summoner?

[barren cipher]

from a strictly power perspective, charisma primary = archetypes with broken firebrands feats

dragon disciple, obviously

[frank crystal]

oh yah firebrand works with cha

[barren cipher]

lots of good single actions for when your eidolon is having a big turn

[frank crystal]

dragon disciple is locked to kobolds, dragon sorcers and dragon bards

[barren cipher]

you can probably talk your gm into that though, it's just an access requirement

[frank crystal]

I mean yah, but like

I’m not super attached to it

I don’t particularly care

[barren cipher]

yeah, i mean it's just OK

resists, AC and scent are quite nice

[frank crystal]

I guess, but I think I’ll be doing something else

[barren cipher]

bard archetype is also pretty strong if you have a lot of 2-3 action activities for your eidolon

[frank crystal]

Honestly, I think Marshal is the play

[turbid dagger]

I'm doing Bard for my Plant Summoner
For heavily Eidolon focused Summoner builds Inspire Courage is kickass
And its doubly true when you get something like Draconic Frenzy
Inspire, Act Together (Boost Eidolon, Draconic Frenzy) is a kickass damage turn

[barren cipher]

trained in martial weapons is probably a bit hard to come by for what you get for it

[frank crystal]

Can I inspire my own eidolon?

[frank crystal]

Oh shit I didn’t notice that prerequisite

[barren cipher]

yes, and all of your other little pals too

[turbid dagger]

Its a seperate character so stuff that affects allies affects it yeah

[frank crystal]

Oh hell yah

[barren cipher]

in a much larger radius than marshal, you really have to be in it

[frank crystal]

Then I’ll probably go bard

How do I get inspire courage exactly lol?

I haven’t looked at bard much

[warped orbit]

Inspirational Performance, at level 8

[frank crystal]

Other then that, what else would be good to grab in the archetype?

Actually

Probably more spells

I don’t have a lot of those

[barren cipher]

yeah, grab composition cantrips whenever you can and fill the rest with low level utility spell slots probably

if you're in revised and have your full spell DC for everything then you'll get more mileage out of it

[frank crystal]

We are

[barren cipher]

inspire competence is available as soon as level 4 i guess, that's likely to be pretty useful forever

[frank crystal]

Yah I’m only level 5

So I’ll probably grab that now and then grab some occult spells

[turbid dagger]

My favorite combo for cha free archetype now that I think about it is probably Marshal AND Bard
Inspiring Marshal for +1 to hit, then Dirge Of Doom for -1 enemy AC
But that only takes off late levels obv

[frank crystal]

makes sense

[worthy stump]

that's a really good combo, yeah

you can pull it off at level 6 if you go main class bard, since they have full martial prof in the remaster

[turbid dagger]

Or you pick warrior bard :3
But yeah come remaster its a lot simpler

And actually lets you pseudo martial appreciably well since your to-hit is now in martial territory

[hidden raptor]

are the remaster classes like the unchained classes in 1e? or are they more mandatory replacements

[worthy stump]

depends on the class. some got pretty big changes like Witch and Wizard, other got mostly minor changes and additions. they'll be mandatory for organized play if you didn't have one made pre-remaster, but otherwise your table is free to do what they want, really

[frank crystal]

Can you move animated assault with each sustain?

[barren cipher]

alas, no

[frank crystal]

Zamn

[young chasm]

wait shining arms is really good with new light

[turbid dagger]

I believe the intention is that they are full replacements, in the sense that they are all built from the perspective of 'fixing what the devs believe to be gameplay issues'

They're not changing Witch to give your Spicy Second Witch, its to fix the first witch

[surreal basin]

yall wanna see a fucked up ability I am thinking about giving my wizard

[frank crystal]

sure

[surreal basin]

Enlightenment:
Sculpt the Weave
Free Action: Burn your soul to twist and bend the threads of creation. Increase your doomed condition by one. If the next spell you cast requires a save, you choose the type of save it requires. If it has an area of effect, you can remove the effect from a number of squares equal to the spell's level.

[frank crystal]

oh thats sick

[surreal basin]

Oh I can share the others too

For the cleric

Heresy of Creation: Free Action. Increase your doomed condition by one. Burn your soul to commit deepest heresy and channel divinity. When you cast a heal or harm spell that causes someone to regain hitpoints, you can also cast a spell with the same number of actions for free, able to target anyone who received HP from the spell.

For the gunslinger

Soul Shot
Free Action: You infuse your bullet with a fraction of your soul's power, burning it away in the process. Increase your doomed condition by one. Deal half your level in d6 spirit damage alongside your normal damage on the next shot you make. If this shot misses, you may make a second attack against the same or different target, as the bullet curves mid-flight at your command.

They got these on meditating on the fact that the soul is just a form of energy

[rapid wagon]

has anyone here been in or run a blood lords campaign? Friend might be running it and im trying to settle on a class/concept that narratively fits nicely into the setting

im keen to play so many different classes lol

[eager mountain]

I have been

[rapid wagon]

i know it doesn't necessitate me playing an undead, which is neat

i was thinking about working for the export guild

or in the past i did

as like a shipment inspector/security specialist

[eager mountain]

i played a vampire psychic .

then I played a fleshwarp thaumaturge XD

thats about most of the thought I put into it

[rapid wagon]

thaumaturge is on my list but im not settled

ive not played pf2e before, so fighter is looking interesting

though the adventure is a bit more politically oriented than pure fighting right?

[eager mountain]

uhhhh as always theres alot of fights

I mean I only ever got to level 9 and there was alot of fights

fighter is fine no matter what adventure

[surreal basin]

Yeah there’s a lot of fighting

[rapid wagon]

waiting a bit to see what other prospective players are looking at, rn theres a tyrant champion potentially

and possible a rogue or thaumaturge

I have a desire to play like almost 60% of the classes so i can't really list em out

the main thing i want to do is properly link into the internal narrative of the adventure

[barren cipher]

just have a bit of ambition and you’ll be fine

[rapid wagon]

question, how does hte kineticist play

are they mostly magic artillery?

[solar storm]

Highly variable depending on your elements

[rapid wagon]

ahh so they're pretty versatile?

[solar storm]

A given character usually isn't but the class as a whole is

[rapid wagon]

mm ok

[warped orbit]

it depends a lot on which elements you have, yeah

and which impulses you take

[rapid wagon]

is their flavor more "Wizard under a different hat"? or more "Monk for elemental magic"? or something inbetween?

[warped orbit]

you are mostly kinda caster-ish IME

though you tend to have only a few tricks, that you use a lot

[rapid wagon]

ala 5e warlock and eldritch blast?

[solar storm]

The Kineticist in my game is a frontline magic tank

(Wood Kineticist)

[barren cipher]

it's sort of the fighter of spellcasters, in that you do a few specific things very effectively and resourcelessly

[rapid wagon]

ohh

ok

[warped orbit]

I've played a Wood/Earth Kinet for a few levels now

mostly focused on protecting allies, and locking down enemy movement

[rapid wagon]

so my build dictates, but generally I have a lot of ways I can choose to go

just that my goal narrows as i pick

and so id nominally be SOME kind of caster, but my party role could go a lot of different ways

i wonder what kind of element a geb based kineticist might be inclined to be oriented towards

as someone who isn't a necromancer

maybe a earth

[warped orbit]

so I for example got

• Armor in Earth to armor up
• Protector Tree to torment my GM soak up damage on allies
• Fresh Produce for healing, mostly out of combat or the occasional emergency
• Ravel of Thorns to punish enemies moving around me
• and now Jagged Berms to further lock down enemies and punish movement

[barren cipher]

can't get edgier than metal

[warped orbit]

we also have another Kineticist in the same party, but they are Fire/Water and play very differently from mine
mostly focused on AoE damage with Flying Flame and Steam Knight, and also healing with Ocean's Balm

[solar tendon]

earth

calcium is a mineral

a metal as well though tbf

[eager mountain]

I play a wind/water kineticist

so I have a bit of healing, and some movement stuff

[warped orbit]

I'd personally say look through the impulses a bit, and look for any that appeal to you
and then build around that

composite impulses especially

[turbid dagger]

Yeah kineticist is weird because it can genuinely like
Fill any role
Like the Water/Wood kineticist I'm playing is a cleric tier full healer

With all their healing impulses and combat medicine

[warped orbit]

Water/Wood could theoretically have up to four different heals, which is pretty funny

though I don't know if you plan on actually taking all of them haha

[turbid dagger]

Oceans balm, torrent in the blood, and Dash Of Herbs are all on the list
Unsure if I want fresh produce
We just learned a future area is gonna be filled with water so I may have to ditch it for return to the sea

Oh, sanguiviolent roots too

[rapid wagon]

oo ok so what would metal/earth be oriented around?

going by the graphs they seem broadly similar, with more trickery in metal than earth

[warped orbit]

Metal is a bit of a grab bag

lot of damaging impulses, some utility and support

[rapid wagon]

i figure earth/metal kineticist might have some interfacing with the undead nation and be of utility to the many blood lords

[clever cobalt]

I'm playing a pure Fire Kineticist and they can do some serious damage

[turbid dagger]

As Alaen said Metal has more Weird Stuff, but Earth is the premier tanky melee element and Metal supplements it nicely
Armor In Earth gives you Heavy Armor and one of the later impulses deadass gives you an extra Apex boost in Strength
So your melee Blasts are going to be kickass and your hard to kill

[rapid wagon]

hmm ok so being metal/earth, mchanically, will incline me to frontlining with some powerful magic

and is there enough narrative assocation there to tie me to using my elemental magics for more mundane tasks like digging, excavating, forging etc?

incidentally is hte healing from the kineticist elements considered positive energy?

cause thats illegal in Geb

[turbid dagger]

They have the vitality tag yes, unfortunately

Now they may not be illegal in the same way as casting Heal is, but it wouldn't work on anyone undead

[turbid dagger]

As for this, look at Base Kinesis (an innate class feature) and Extended Kinesis (a class feat that upgrades it), they're the designated 'do weird creative stuff with your element' options
https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=2126
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4184

[rapid wagon]

ok cool, i figure there might be some grave digging

amongst other things

i guess if im evil also like restraining folk for necromancers

[turbid dagger]

Notably you can only destroy Light bulk worth of your element with each use of Base Kinesis until you Heighten it some, so at first it may be more convenient to just use a shovel

[frank crystal]

I’ve been playing a fire metal Kinecticist with soon to be earth

And I’ve found they’re very good at like

Melee AOE

Or at least I’ve built them for that

Metal carapace, fire fan, soon to be lava leap and the metal AC stance

Giving me a lot of survivability and AOE potential

[warped orbit]

Fire especially tends towards close range

Due to the aura

[frank crystal]

Which is weird because their blast is the 60 feet d6 damage blast

Which makes them feel longer range then they actually are

[rapid wagon]

hmm, what else do i like or want to play.... Fighter, Monk, Magus, maybe even a warrior bard... Monk seems hard to fit into geb, maybe a a carter guild member who studies a manual in their free time and trains?

magus seems like they'd be studying under a necromancer, or might be in geb from somewehre else

i could go really henchman coded with a fighter i think

[warped orbit]

My main review of Kineticist is that Timber Sentinel is 10/10
@frank crystal can attest 😛

[frank crystal]

Turns out that spell is one of the best in the game if you turn it into a cantrip

Also I will burn your trees to the ground

[rustic cape]

Timber Sentinel just allowing you to plant trees en masse is wild

[frank crystal]

I mean I think they die once you use it again or enough time passes

[unborn rain]

Timber sentinel is just a free on level spell? That's insane

[frank crystal]

Yup

It’s an effective 20 temp HP for the entire party to

[unborn rain]

You can only have 1 at a time

[frank crystal]

And it can just be cast

Forever

You break one?

You just use it again!

[turbid dagger]

An idea I had for a Gebbite Monk is a traditional Vudrani Monk who willingly became undead to continue pursuing mastery in the mortal coil
Since Blood Lords starts at level 1 maybe something kept them from their training in life, they were born with a weak heart or something

[frank crystal]

That one feat choice Alaen made has

Single handedly saved the party so much health

It’s wild how good it is when it’s free

[unborn rain]

It's a good spell when it costs something

like 10 hp per level is really good

[frank crystal]

Yah

And it’s auto upcasted too

So that’s only when you first take it

[barren cipher]

it's sorta conditional so it's hard to justify the slot

[frank crystal]

That’s not even counting that they’re level 6 now

[barren cipher]

generally you could just cast heal instead

or some deeply impactful 7th level spell or something

but it's way too good for a cantrip

[frank crystal]

I mean tree sentinel has the benefit that it’s proactive at least

[barren cipher]

that you get for a 1st level feat

[frank crystal]

You’d rather reduce damage then heal it

[barren cipher]

yeah, i mean it folds to aoe, non-strike damage, forced movement, hitting someone who is not next to the tree etc.

but most damage is strikes

and most battlefields are pretty small

and it takes up a space and that's crazy

[rapid wagon]

oo i like that

i did have a mummy monk idea that might mesh with it

[barren cipher]

they broke some of their other rules with kineticist and i'm not desperately impressed with that

[rapid wagon]

initially the idea was a monastary who traditionally mummified promising pupils to ensure they can train forever and eventually possibly become the most senior of the warrior monks. In this case, the idea would be that they got mummified and before their re-awakening, their monastery was deposed, so he has to figure out how to survive in geb without their monastic support structure

[surreal basin]

yeah

?

[barren cipher]

resourceless flight at level 8

like not even normal flight, strictly better flight

[surreal basin]

Air Kineticist gets that I assume

[clever cobalt]

God I really wanna play Strength of Thousands

[barren cipher]

yeah, it costs two actions every ten minutes and you don't even need to use a fly action to maintain it if you use an air impulse

[clever cobalt]

How hard is it to justify a non-Mwangi character in Srrength of Thousands?

[barren cipher]

trivial

[unborn rain]

not very, it's the best magic school

[solar tendon]

it's the oldest magical insitution in the world

[surreal basin]

Yeah not a big deal there are tons of non Mwangi students

Just like, NPCs alone

[frank crystal]

I mean I do feel like kineticist deserve a little leeway?

[surreal basin]

There’s a guy from cheliax

[solar tendon]

the cohort are all native to garund though

[rapid wagon]

i forget, theres still a tradition of Magic Warriors in the Mwangi Expanse right?

[frank crystal]

Mostly just because like, besides choosing the class, you also have to choose the elements

[solar tendon]

or born there I mean

Ignaci is a colonial kid

[frank crystal]

Which means yes technically kineticists get flight at level 8

But only air kineticist

Which are 1/6 of them

[solar tendon]

it's like how investigators basically get resourceless true strike

[surreal basin]

Eh I get what they mean

[clever cobalt]

Also, is playing a magic class required for Strength of Thousands?

[barren cipher]

devise ain't true strike

[clever cobalt]

I recall reading something like that

[solar tendon]

if it's a class feature that's not totally poachable you can fuck with stuff

[surreal basin]

No but you do have to take a magic archetype if not

Wizard or Druid

And it does take your free archetype slot

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[solar tendon]

raw you have to be free archetype wizard or druid and if one of those classes you have to take the other

[unborn rain]

no but there's free archetype for Wizard and Druid only

Although you could probably convince a leniant GM to expand that to Magus I think

[surreal basin]

Technically everyone has to take wizard or - yeah

[clever cobalt]

Was thinking a Gnoll Magus of sorts

Ywah

[surreal basin]

Which is bad and sucks imo

But

It is what it is

[clever cobalt]

Hopefully going Magus by itself is spellcast-y enoughh

But I suppose that's up to the GM

[solar tendon]

you also get free feats from the magaambya archetypes through the academic system

[barren cipher]

i don't mind, they throw stuff at you hand over fist at you in strength of thousands

[solar tendon]

magus is literally a prepared arcane caster lol

[clever cobalt]

In a good or bad way?

[surreal basin]

That’s fair, I guess it’s just really easy to see some builds just

[clever cobalt]

E.g. enemies or loot or

[surreal basin]

Never using the wizard or druid archetype stuff lmao

Oh fears

*feats

[clever cobalt]

Ah

[solar tendon]

I think if you're expecting free archetype i can see how it sucks

[barren cipher]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1467

[clever cobalt]

I mean who doesnt play with FA tbh

[surreal basin]

The school subsystem gives you a fuck load of ‘free’ stuff

[frank crystal]

Also speaking of class archetypes, does taking those classes qualify you for prerequisites related to the classes?

[solar tendon]

but idk I guess just give ppl two free archetypes why not

[surreal basin]

I will say uh

[barren cipher]

this is all player guide stuff, no spoilers or anything

[surreal basin]

Don’t uh

Don’t except a lot of loot

Or money

For the first book

[clever cobalt]

Fair

[surreal basin]

Maybe the first two

[clever cobalt]

I mean this is all theoretical

[surreal basin]

My players were not happy with the amount of loot at all lol

[clever cobalt]

I have yet to join a game

I'm thinking uh

(Nephilim) Gnoll Magus/Psychic

[solar tendon]

significant amount of the money you get in the first two books is stipend which the books don't tell you how to give out because the adventure is very cagey about setting a timeline

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[surreal basin]

(Which IMO is it’s greatest downfall)

[clever cobalt]

I heard it's a great AP overall

[surreal basin]

(Because it desperately relies on there being a set timeline)

[solar tendon]

I guess because they wanted it to work for people who are into going 1-20 in a month idk

[clever cobalt]

But yeah thst does sound like a weakpoint

[surreal basin]

I will be the voice of dissent and say it’s okay

[unborn rain]

how good SoT is highly dependent on your DM I think. The very base of the books could be a lot better

[surreal basin]

It has a lot of stuff that doesn’t work unless the GM throws their back out doing extra stuff

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[surreal basin]

A lot of the people who love it just had GMs who did a lot of extra work

[solar tendon]

like how the rest of the adventures work

[surreal basin]

I mean

Not

Really?

[solar tendon]

I mean in terms of timeframe

[surreal basin]

Oh! Yeah

Sorry

[clever cobalt]

Fighter could be fun but like

[solar tendon]

np it's the risk I take by refusing to finish a thought before hitting enter haha

[clever cobalt]

Druid or Wizard FA don't mesh well with Fighters imo

[surreal basin]

Yeah mostly but here it’s really noticeable because they like

[rapid wagon]

im keen to try out a fighter just because it seems much more interesting to play than in 1e

[surreal basin]

Have a bunch of activities that take a month

[barren cipher]

it is

[clever cobalt]

PF2e Fighters are great

[barren cipher]

martials in general honestly

[surreal basin]

Or you get X GP a month

And then they just go

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Idk how many months

[clever cobalt]

But yeah my idea is a Gnoll from the Impossible Lands

My other idea is a Nexian Fleshforged

Dunno how they would end up in the school though

[solar tendon]

there's a catfolk and an anadi who are presumably from southern garund I think

more sure in the latter's case than the former

which in fantasy land where it's from outside of inner sea region can like seem not that far but it's like the same distance as the crow flies to like most of the way up avistan

culturally there's a difference but yeah

[unborn rain]

I think SoT has a very good thing of like, this is a school that is highly desirable to go to for a variety of people.

Like if you're a spellcaster it's the forefront magic school, it also teaches like lots of leaders and stuff, also the school has like done lots of various stuff around the world for someone to be like "Some one from the
magambyia saved my life and I want that"

[clever cobalt]

True

[solar tendon]

the main thing is to have a character who wants to learn really

cause as an instution it has the professors and the books etc to make that happen if you work for it

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

Also weird question but uh

Dex Magus or Strength Magus

What do you guys prefer

[solar tendon]

but yeah globally magaambya are like. hot shit disaster rescue peeps

[unborn rain]

Depends on the build

I'd probably prefer Dex because I like lightly armoured characters

[barren cipher]

strength probably, unless you desperately need someone with thievery

[warped orbit]

Str generally, unless you need Dex for a specific thing

[solar tendon]

dex for less ludonarrative dissonance about walking around in medium armour xP

[warped orbit]

or you're Starlit Span obviously

[frank crystal]

I think I prefer strength

[clever cobalt]

My other concepts are Inventor/Wizard and Magus types using the ones found in Magus+

[frank crystal]

Eh, I feel like strength characters don’t necessarily imply heavy armor

Like barbarians are

The

Strength class

And they’re stuck to medium at best

[unborn rain]

Barbarians deal is having bad armour but good health

[solar tendon]

I meant str means walking around in medium armour

[barren cipher]

being strong is really useful

[frank crystal]

Ohhhh

[solar tendon]

dex means being able to wear basically clothes

[frank crystal]

Ok Nevermind then

I misunderstood

[clever cobalt]

I could always just take the Sentinel archetype

Mighty Bulwark my beloved

[surreal basin]

Oh! I have advice

This is kinda obvious

But make a character who wants to like…. Step up and do dangerous stuff

Rather than just be a student

[solar tendon]

the magaambya has an expectation of community service and the adventure expects your primary skills in helping a community is beating stuff up

[surreal basin]

Yeah

You are expected to kinda be a cop

[solar tendon]

cause elfgame

[surreal basin]

Which imo feels super fucking dissonant with the early APs tone but

That’s me

[solar tendon]

I disagree but I went out of my way to emphasise that nantambu doesn't do cops and I concede your point about effort beyond what's written in the ap haha

[surreal basin]

The magus in my group had killed… so many people, early on in the AP, cause…. I mean like

They’re a magus

Their nonlethal options are basically nothing

[unborn rain]

It became a meme in our campaign that my character would punch things a lot

because we lacked any other real non lethal options

so when things got low we just started punching them

[solar tendon]

it was either punch or napalm

it was not ideal

[surreal basin]

It became a meme in my group that the magus would crit on a spellstrike and just kill a guy instantly

[solar tendon]

overall I think the group was pretty prepared for non lethal though

[surreal basin]

Once you ||become teachers|| the ap really comes into its own IMO

[warped orbit]

I mean you can always take a -2, but yeah

[surreal basin]

Can’t do that on a spell though

[warped orbit]

inconvenient non lethal options is something that's really starting to irk me though

yeah spells very rarely being non lethal is a big one

[solar tendon]

there was a big roleplaying thing for us in like

the repercussions of your fighting style being getting really mad and eschewing reason

[surreal basin]

Completely genuinely I’ve just started to have some enemies not die and instead surrender or whatever when they hit 0 as appropriate

[solar tendon]

to the point your latent magical ability makes you a cat now

(animal barbarian)

[warped orbit]

because it kinda sucks being in a situation where you don't want to kill people for some reason or other
and could easily win by using a spell
but you don't want to kill everyone, so you can't do that

[solar tendon]

also a lot of tasting things they didn't want to like [super minor book 1 spoilers] ||lots of bites out of bugs like giant centipedes||

[unborn rain]

I'm of the opinion that killing people is almost always wrong, which makes games like Pathfinder weird because I think there's a sort of expectation of you just killing so many people

and like those people have families which might never ever come up, like you've taken a person out of reality and it might not mean anything for the game

[solar tendon]

it's rough

[surreal basin]

In all fairness, once you’re fighting someone, it IS pretty hard to not horribly mail them bare minimum

[solar tendon]

but it's also like. the tactical game being so abstract that ppl go from fully able to dead in a split second which is not really how real fighting works

[surreal basin]

But also yes it’s just a result of the fiction it’s based on

[solar tendon]

at least not exclusively

[surreal basin]

Again, it’s why I’ve just

Let people not die sometimes

[solar tendon]

and it kinda bothers me that elfgames created these settings where like

the lowest healing magic can fix literally anything until you're dead

[surreal basin]

It’s weird! And I have many questions about it lol

[solar tendon]

there's not really spending a week or two recovering after a fight

which in many systems and often in real life is the norm

[surreal basin]

I think that isn’t really a symptom of elf game as much as it is a symptom of game

[solar tendon]

but also I do agree that generally elfgames are seeking to emulate fantasy fighting as conquering adversity and not irl violence

[carmine egret]

World of Darkness has a mostly more realistic healing setup... For mortals at least

[solar tendon]

so I can be like if this was a story where violence is real this is horrifying but it's not so it's ???

[surreal basin]

Mhm

Tbh I do think something that APs are missing

Especially in 2e

Is I feel like they often don’t give the BBEGs any concrete ideology

So there’s nothing to oppose beyond pulp “they’re gonna blow up the world cause they’re mad” or something

Idk

I don’t know how to elaborate on what I mean here

[silver geyser]

Not enough people interested in conquest?

[surreal basin]

Well, I guess just

There’s not much to engage with

Even just “I believe in survival of the fittest and am going to do that” like senator armstrong stuff

It feels like most villains have their goal and PERSONAL reasons why they do things, but they don’t have a worldview? At least not one that’s expressed

Like (BIG STRENGTH OF THOUSANDS SPOILERS DONT READ IT IF YOU CARE) ||what does the king of biting ants believe in BEYOND being an evil sorcerer? What kind of world does he want to make? It’s not as interesting to oppose something that doesn’t have any opinions beyond being evil|||

[solar tendon]

||you're completely right but I can also just kinda dig 'evil ball of ants'||

[surreal basin]

Yeah but only when it’s special :3

Bloodlords gives its BBEG kinda something approaching a worldview

[turbid dagger]

Yeah early game SOT has a weird tone sometimes
Because its got this narrative throughline of like
||'every life is a life, don't kill just because its expedient'||
But also there are a lot of times where you are kind of just expected to kill dudes because they're in your way
The ||gremlins in the library|| is the peak example of this for me
||oh hoh, those meddlesome gremlins, throwing books at us and making the floor slippery||
||THOSE BOOKS DO LETHAL DAMAGE, ROLL INITATIVE, KILL THEM WITH FIRE (LITERALLY, USE PRODUCE FLAME AND BURN THEM TO DEATH CUZ THEY'RE OUT OF RANGE OF MELEE)||

[surreal basin]

YEAH

YEAH ITS WEIRD

[clever cobalt]

what's their deal?

[turbid dagger]

I was the only dude in our group who found this terribly weird
Because it was my first PF2e game and everyone else was kind of used to the Kill Monster vibes

[surreal basin]

||They want to take over Geb and see it as an ideal nation, are tired of undead being relegated to an underclass everywhere but Geb, wanting to destabilize countries with undead terrorist attacks and then take them over to create a worldwide regime||

[solar tendon]

I kinda went with a ||they're fae creatures who don't really understand death, will be fine, and mostly exist to be Annoying|| but idk if that lines up with actual golarion lore at all lol

[surreal basin]

It’s not complex

But it’s something

Oh yeah fey in golarion don’t die

[solar tendon]

but also one of your entry tasks is to not do what the book kinda doesn't care if you do past that point

[turbid dagger]

||IIRC fae are only pseudo-immortal in the first world, they die For Real if killed outside it||

[surreal basin]

Hold on I’ll go check

I think it’s the other way around

[solar tendon]

I thought it might be something like that but ye

[surreal basin]

Yeah no I checked the wiki

They just reform in the first world after a while

Fey creatures can often have customs that are unintentionally murderous to outsiders due to their immortality in the First World. They see death as a nebulous thing that rarely has real consequence.

[solar tendon]

I guess I kinda get the vibe where they didn't want the book to be like. a nag on the supposed 'standard party'

[surreal basin]

Uh I guess it’s unclear if they’re immortal outside of the first world but I think they are

[solar tendon]

ppl sign up for magic school they don't necessarily sign up for an exploration of adventure morality

it's also a result of how the books are physically written as a general ap thing I think

[surreal basin]

Apperantly the lore is contradictory

On whether Fae return to the first world or join the River of souls if they die outside of the first world

[turbid dagger]

The Sprite page on nethys has this to say:

The majority of sprites remain in the First World, where they are essentially immortal, reincarnating to a new form of fey when their life eventually comes to an end.

However, sprites are incredibly curious about all forms of magic, leading a significant number to risk the mortal world to explore the new possibilities offered by the unusually static nature of mortal existence. These creatures mix in with other, smaller groups of Material Plane comrades, including exiles from the First World, those whose family swore pacts to mortals, and even contemplative individuals curious to enter the mortal cycle of souls.

[surreal basin]

Ye

I think it can be up to interpretation but apperantly they’re only supposed to be immortal in the first world

I like them just always popping back though

Especially given how that one feat works

[rapid wagon]

there's probably some evidence to the loss of immortality in the normal world based on how things work for elves and othe fae related creatures who live full time in the main plane

[solar tendon]

elves aren't fae related in golarion I don't htink

just gnomes

[turbid dagger]

Either way (SOT spoilers again) ||the main antagonist of Part 1's Bad Dude Deal is that he slaughtered gremlins in swathes just to get rid of them, which the teachers didn't like||
And then to foil his plans, you.... ||slaughter gremlins in swathes, mostly just to get rid of them||

[surreal basin]

No but it’s okay because you’re the protagonists

[unborn rain]

I'm pretty sure most fey don't die but some fey who have specifically decided to like settle down in the material plane can die for real

[turbid dagger]

I think the most interesting Main Bad Dude of the APs I know of is probably Age Of Ashes?
Like its to an extent kind of generic 'greater good' stuff but also ||Actually For Real Killing a major evil deity is REALLY tempting and I can see why he'd go for it||

[rapid wagon]

im kind of invested in the idea of playing all the subsequent tar baphon related adventures cause im mid carrion crown rn

[rustic cape]

Naw, they just become mundane trees

[frank crystal]

Oh ok

[rustic cape]

It’s a move with real story utility if you’re smart with it

[rapid wagon]

that sounds a lot like a "this breaks game economy over its knee"

"I can generate a small forest of fully mature lumber multiple times ina day"

[frank crystal]

I forget, do Kitsunes get access to a human form and a Fox form or one or the other based off heritage?

[barren cipher]

you get your true form and either a fox form (based on pest form) or a tailless form (local humanoid)

there's a feat to get the other one at 5

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

Ok so then yah my Kitsune doesn’t have that yet

And probably won’t for a while

I’m probably gonna grab the Kitsune spell mysteries for bane

[solar storm]

IMO Timber Sentinel is probably sort of OP

I am also dealing with it in an AV game

[surreal basin]

Hmmm

What’re cool items I could give 13th level Gunslinger, Wizard, and Cleric as gifts from themselves from a previous timeline

[young chasm]

late to the discussion but the more i hosted SoT the more i didn't like the AP

wasn't a big fan of book 3

[surreal basin]

That’s funny, Book 3 is my favorite

What didn’t you like about it?

[light gyro]

I thought the travel segments were kinda bad

[light gyro]

||pretty sure you get punished for killing any of the first band of gremlins who were just messing around, everything after that is gremlins actively trying to kill you and other students.||

[young chasm]

to be honest ||i wasn't a fan of the absolute gauntlet of fights that didn't really serve any purpose beyond gaining enough EXP to allow the party to effectively attempt the prison of the vacant eye. one of my players even died during these combats on their way to the prison, and i genuinely think it wasn't anyone's fault, just a series of REALLY unlucky roles... so it made the aftermath a bit awkward because how do you introduce a new character out in the field like that? they'd just kind of have to show up and the party just goes with it. maybe that's just a me thing though||

||it's cool that the party becomes fully fledged teachers who become mentors of a new cohort of students living in the same dormitory they once did.... but they effectively just introduced these new student NPCs, and then proceeded to do absolutely nothing with them? only one of them really held relevance to the plot and honestly she was more of a macguffin more than anything. the rest were just kinda forgotten about :/||

[surreal basin]

||I mean imo almost none of the NPCs introduced in the first two books have relevance either||

[young chasm]

i wouldn't really call that good

i get what you mean but it just kinda cements my critiques about the AP in general

[silver geyser]

I'm just gonna point out that every single Paizo AP struggles to make relevant NPCs.

And part of that is because relevant NPC is going to depend on the table as well.

[solar tendon]

yeah

cause one group's best friend is gonna be another groups why do we have to keep dealing with this guy we hate

[silver geyser]

Yep.

So writing in the NPCs but not dictating when you have to interact with them is freeing.

It should be on your PCs to choose who they want to interact with and keep up with.

[solar tendon]

to a certain extent I feel like. just like the system can't play a player's character for them neither can an adventure entirely play an npc for you unfortunately

which does suck cause running this type of game is so much work and written modules are meant to ease that burden

[silver geyser]

Agreed. The hard work of encounter design, story design, and map design being done for you does help though.

[solar tendon]

fwiw I found the npc writeups in kindled magic consistently useful and far beyond what I've seen in other written adventures, which is kinda what drove me to run sot in the first place

[silver geyser]

Oh yeah, it goes above and beyond for 'em.

Compared to the other APs.

Some of the APs will go "Hey, you're spending a month around this character. We're going to give you basically nothing about them."

And there is also the ever-infamous Book Six Surprise Villain.

[worthy stump]

Paizo loves dropping the main villain of the AP in Book Six, it's true

[carmine egret]

Abomination Vaults is a pretty impressive example of the opposite approach

I think Outlaws of Alkenstar too, to the point where you've got them showing up for a "no seriously you guys you have to LEAVE" moment

[surreal basin]

Bloodlords is extremely good about not doing the Book Six Villain

And SOT is awful about it lmao

||although I guess he’s a boon 5 villain???||

[silver geyser]

||I will say that SoT does it so much better compared to Carrion Crown or Skull and Shackles||

[solar tendon]

my take is mostly like

not every adventure needs an overarching villain who caused every plot thread tbh

like in sot the plot thread is you are following the lives of ppl at the magaambya not ||the adventurers who defeat the king of biting ants||

like that's not the key thing

[turbid dagger]

I can accept it for a 1 to 20 yeah
Because like
I feel like an actual home made 1 to 20 campaign is usually going from arc to arc and not just 20 levels of Get After That Fucker

[solar tendon]

but ik a lot of ppl feel the opposite which is chill

[silver geyser]

I feel the first two APs do the overarching villain bit quite well.

[trail nova]

War for the Crown is a pet favorite, and while it does drop a book 5-6 surprise, it’s somewhat foreshadowed and also the whole AP is about secret conspiracies.

“The real villain was pulling strings from behind the scenes” is a genre staple for it

[silver geyser]

||Ileosa|| is obviously evil from day one, but there's a fun gimmick there

[eager mountain]

@rapid wagon now that im awake yeah , kineticist is w here you start getting the COOL names in pathfinder actions

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4250 stuff like IGNITE THE SUN

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4234 REBIRTH OF LIVING STONE

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4295 Turn the Wheel of Seasons

and USURP THE LUNAR REIGNSSSSS

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4280

ya know, till you get to shit like exemplar

[rapid wagon]

think a kineticist could be narratively/mechancially themed to be tied into / working with and for a necromantic evil kingdom?

[eager mountain]

mabye

i mean theres no void kineticist unfortunately

only elemental planes.

[rapid wagon]

yeah, my thought was Eart or metal might be a nice fit

or plants

[eager mountain]

but hey your in the impossible lands, you could have just walked out of the mana wastes for all it matters

[rapid wagon]

just go for toiled earth, heavy soil, that kind of thing

[eager mountain]

with a hole to the elemental plane of fire in your back

its terrible for your shirts, so you gotta wear open back clothing all the time \

cause ya know, the fire shoots out your back and into your hand

lol actualy this is a really cool flavor idea

I like this

[solar storm]

Provided they don't channel Wood yeah

[eager mountain]

yeah positive energy is outlawed in geb

....I supose a water healer would be good ?

[solar storm]

Kineticists are rare and also kind of brand new so its sort of unprecedented a lot of places

[eager mountain]

no one knows how they pop up either

just that they do

i mean i supose a earth kineticist could be like focused on Fossils ?

[rapid wagon]

Ohh is not a self discipline and training thing but more a spontaneous thing?

[eager mountain]

I mean I think someone might awaken something in themselves, but that would be like a single instance of it

metal might be fitting

the plane of metal has alot of decay themes

[rapid wagon]

Ooo

Yeah that fits really well

[rapid wagon]

Bone and steel

[eager mountain]

dont bones build up metals in them ?

also blood has metals in it

[solar storm]

You can train it but it's unknown why some people have a Gate and some people don't

[eager mountain]

lol extract the iron from people's blood

[rapid wagon]

Maybe the character would find employ with one of the guilds that does a lot of raising or bone architecture

[eager mountain]

theres supsoedly ALSO Aether and Void , but we dont have any class stuff for that yet

probably gotta wait for the Tian Xai book

later this year in ......

I think may ?

nvm april

the character guide for tian xia is in august

howl of the wild is in may tho

so thats cool

and monster core isnt till like march

https://tenor.com/view/give-up-done-the-voice-christina-aguilera-gif-3893945

player core 2 isnt till july

damn it

I WANT MY SORCERER UPDATE

[surreal basin]

I wouldn’t expect much like that from the world guide tbh

They rarely if ever have big player options like that

[eager mountain]

Character guide

Is coming later

[surreal basin]

Ahhh yeah maybe in that

I could see them doing Void, idk about Aether

[eager mountain]

I mean theres a thing in the rage of elements book about i

but yeah fair

mabye in some book we will get aether

[surreal basin]

It feels like this is definitely leaving void open for sure yeah

[eager mountain]

also planes

[fossil temple]

wait them how Pathbuilder was able to update it to Revision Pf2?

[sinful gyro]

It's updating from player core 1 I'm guessing

The changes aren't that big

[fossil temple]

That's fair

[sinful gyro]

And it's cross compatible

[fossil temple]

Some classes changes are bigger than the others, like the Wizard

[sinful gyro]

True but still

[fossil temple]

And I was very curious about the new witch

[clever cobalt]

is War for the Crown good?

I know you're basically playing secret agents of Taldor (but good guys!)

but that's it