Pathfinder

[surreal basin]

Intent is def not

I’m just saying I’d allow someone to specifically spawn bombs that do fire damage with it cause themeing

[solar tendon]

hmm

isn't only 'bomb' a like

weapon type though

while bombs themselves are like specific magic items but alchemical

and like you obviously can't use this to summon any common magic weapon either

im not sure what exactly stops you raw, but its like how creation doesn't specify either

[solar storm]

Bombs are strictly speaking thrown martial weapons

But I do think that the intent would be that the spell doesn't override Consumable so you only get 1

[craggy thunder]

Gonna make some Witch Patrons

Ghosts and 'the familiar class gets an animal companion instead'

The latter may actually make a better class archetype

actually yeah

[craggy thunder]

Uncommon, Cantrip, Curse, Necromancy, Hex, Witch
Source Ianthe the Kobold’s Homebrew Emporium
Cast 1 Action, verbal
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
Saving Throw Will Duration Sustained up to 1 minute

You fix your gaze on the target, calling wondrous, chilling, or inexplicable spirits to harry your foe. The target becomes stupefied based on the results of its Will save. This condition value can't be reduced below 1 while the spell is active and you can see the target. Regardless of the outcome, the target is then temporarily immune for 1 minute.

Success The target is unaffected.
Failure The target is stupefied 1.
Critical Failure The target is stupefied 2.```Ghost Patron Hex Cantrip

Go Bother That Motherfucker

[craggy thunder]

I'm not the only one it kind of really bothers that the storm order for druid doesn't have a 4th level feat right?

[turbid dagger]

they get clumsy on their starting focus spell instead

[frank crystal]

Yah storm does that have that going it for it at least lol

I’ve got a druid player in an upcoming game actually

I think they’re going animal order

They at least want a companion

But it’s free archetype so maybe they’ll take another order and go animal trainer archetype instead

[craggy thunder]

It's fucking with my druid magus plan lol

So I am making a 4th level storm druid feat

[frank crystal]

What do you want it to be?

[craggy thunder]

druid magus or the feat?

for the feat I liked the idea of the storm order gaining the ability to sustain the spell?

and have the area gradually expand?

Druid
Source Ianthe the Kobold’s Homebrew Emporium
Prerequisites tempest surge
On your next turn after you cast tempest surge, you may Sustain a Spell to keep the storm active for up to 1 minute. The area of the spell becomes a 5-foot-radius emanation around the original target, and expands each round, up to a maximum of 30 feet. Each time you Sustain this spell, the original target must make the basic Reflex save again, as does every target in the area. If a target who has already failed the save fails the save again, they do not gain the Clumsy condition.```

[frank crystal]

Druid yah

[frank crystal]

Also that is cool

[craggy thunder]

Thank you!

[craggy thunder]

druid magus I just want to make the archetype cuz fun lol

also making a spellsword that doesn't have to rely on Int or having to archetype into another class

instead it has its own bespoke class archetype I guess <XD

someone in another server said it may be less work to just make a new class and like

idk I kiiinda agree?

I guess?

But also like

eh?

[frank crystal]

Ohhh

Wait I was asking for the druid feat lol

[craggy thunder]

OH

[frank crystal]

I didn’t even realize you were making a druid magus archetype

[craggy thunder]

XDDDD

I am indeedy

[frank crystal]

I assumed you were making a druid magus build

[craggy thunder]

That is the whole thing I'm getting annoyed about

Cuz the 6th level archetype feat is you get your order's associated 4th level feat

and storm doesn't

you know

have one

So I had to make it

[frank crystal]

Yah it’s

Pretty important it has one then lol

[craggy thunder]

The 4th level feat for the archetype still eludes me

Cuz I want it to be cooler than 'gain wild empathy'

But that's all I can come up with

[frank crystal]

Especially since that’s already a thing Druids get I believe

[craggy thunder]

Oh they do but again

this is a class archetype

So it's more shoving some base magus features out of the way and shoving druid ones in

[frank crystal]

Ohhh

[craggy thunder]

like this druid magus class archetype uses primal casting instead of arcane

same slots, prepares em differently

[frank crystal]

Ahh I see

[craggy thunder]

the funny thing is is that

there's not really anything a druid gets for itself between levels 1-4 that I think it super gives a shit about that hasn't already been used for this? XD

Unlike witch, where I can give the witch magus Cackle as a level 4 feat

As a Funky Lil Treat ™️

4th level I think can afford to be a bit lame

since most people are gonna take their hybrid study feat anyways

So I'll just keep it as-is

[frank crystal]

Yah that is kinda an issue with druid as a whole imo

Unless it’s an order feat, the feats are kinda boring

[craggy thunder]

now I must figure out like

two more feats

man

the leaf order feats

are kind of intensely lame

okay

I think this is a lost cause without giving the orders like

consistent levels for feats

This is the one class I've seen not do that and holy shit it's bothering me lmao

[craggy thunder]

Think I'mma do the Cleric one

[solar storm]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/694332611555753996/1191059945639125022/q0ogfu7w1l9c1.webp?ex=65a41003&is=65919b03&hm=127b9b641d5e59646da70cc3b10cd3e33f639395d0d37452233537baa1c884d1&

[frank crystal]

Chara would be a bad DM tbh

Way to confrontational

[craggy thunder]

Okay I think I p much figured it out

[frank crystal]

What are you gonna do?

[craggy thunder]

I squash and stretched some feat timings to diff levels lol

And gave it order explorer and order magic

[turbid dagger]

Does anyone have recs for cool magic items if you are in a game with ABP
So like, magic items that are cool for the activations and not stat boosts
Our GM is letting us all request a magic item as future loot for christmas and I'm late on my pick
I'm a kineticist so all my loot is fucken weird

[sinful gyro]

There's some fun boots that let you climb walls

You could also try getting a shield

[turbid dagger]

I'm doin wood/water healer kineticist, and have been relying on Hardwood Armor for my shield 😔
That said, it seems like my problem has been solved- my GM just informed me he's doing Automatic Rune Progression, not skill items
So I'll just do Healer's Gloves lmao

[turbid dagger]

Hmmm
Zeal Champion who takes oracle dedication
Weapon Surge into Bespell Weapon on a martial 👀

[clever cobalt]

Do you think I could justify a "trench raider" esque aesthetic for a Fighter or Gunslinger by having them be from Alkenstar?

[craggy thunder]

hhhh still not happy with my druidic magus class archetype

[craggy thunder]

what does this mean specifically?

Like gas mask coat etc?

[clever cobalt]

Sorta yeah

Lemme get an example

[craggy thunder]

A gas mask would be like

eeeeehhh?

See nothing inherently wrong with everything else tho

[clever cobalt]

this sorta stuff

WW1 Fantasy sorta stuff

[craggy thunder]

Ohhhhh

That fucks um

Link?

I wanna see the gallery lmao

[turbid dagger]

Could be like
A mana waste outrider type
I seem to recall them having some unit that patrols out there

[craggy thunder]

I don't think that'd be a problem personally

The guard on that sword bothers me

Cuz it's clearly supposed to be a trench knife

and thus a trench weapon

And bro

Just take like

a club

They issued clubs

[turbid dagger]

I imagine its just meant to be evocative of a trench knife while being a sword yeah

[craggy thunder]

it is, which

fair play

It just bugs me lmao

hhhhh druid has nothing rly interesting to hook into outside its orders and I haaaaate it

[clever cobalt]

https://www.artstation.com/matjosh

[craggy thunder]

Cuz then those orders' feats are inconsistent levels

[clever cobalt]

this may also vibe with y'all

or this

[craggy thunder]

That would

were it not for the shield

and that sabre trying its hardest to be a katana

[clever cobalt]

Fair

[craggy thunder]

oh that's fun tho

[clever cobalt]

Trench Wizard

[craggy thunder]

this boy scout ass motherfucker brains your squadmate wyd

[clever cobalt]

Die probably

[craggy thunder]

giant sword that is also a staff is a vibe

[clever cobalt]

But yeah I'm thinking a Trench Raider like the one you posted or my original image but like

[frank crystal]

Yes

YEEEEEEES

[clever cobalt]

A Gnoll :v

[frank crystal]

Inject this shit into my veins

[clever cobalt]

you might like this then

or this

[frank crystal]

[craggy thunder]

God look at this

Fucking chad Scotsman

[clever cobalt]

villain maxxing

he even has goons

[frank crystal]

They say “what’s the situation boss?”

[clever cobalt]

But yeah I love this guy's WW0 project

Tons of cool art

It's right up my alley aesthetically

[craggy thunder]

One of my nascent ttrpg ideas was actually a dieselpunk ww2 fantasy

[clever cobalt]

It's basically "what if WW1 had Knights and some fantasy stuff" and I'm all for it

[craggy thunder]

The 'fighter' was basically a Steiner looking motherfucker in my head

[clever cobalt]

Steiner?

Also I did actually find a WW1 homebrew stuff for Pathfinder 2e

[craggy thunder]

This

Fucking wet noodle of a man

God I hate him

[clever cobalt]

Not sure how good it is though; I found it in my early days of PF2e and haven't read it since

Lemme see if I can find it

https://scribe.pf2.tools/v/flwJX5SJ-items-wwt found it

@craggy thunder @frank crystal figured it might interest you two

[frank crystal]

I am extremely interested yes

I adore modern to close to modern or not far into the future fantasy settings

It’s my lifeblood

[craggy thunder]

What spellcasting class should I make a magus class archetype for?

Witch I already did and Wizard

Is kind of just magus already

[clever cobalt]

Kineticist :v

[craggy thunder]

Hmmmm

I

Don't inherently hate the idea

But also like

eeeeeeehhhhh?

wouldn't rly work

druid is

kind of a non-starter I've discovered

Unless I make a whole ass nature swordsperson archetype that isn't druid

Which does sound like a good direction

[craggy thunder]

I have had

Possibly

A very fuckin stupid idea

actually wait no that's too stupid

(it was class archetypes for other classes that would give them spellstrike)

This is dumb because 1. magus archetype exists and the reason its spellstrike is limited is 2. because

um

Theoretically full casters can take it

[turbid dagger]

Man I wish poison was less wack
Immunities aside I wish we could just have a metastrike thats like
'extra action for X amount of persistent poison'
Instead of having to mess around with bottles and such
I want more poison builds in TTRPGs 😔

[craggy thunder]

You know what I just realized

I bet a psychic class archetype for magus would fuck

[solar storm]

That is a club

[turbid dagger]

It does look blunt on the edges now that I look at it
More like a sharpened metal stake than a proper edge

[frank crystal]

Honestly looks more like a spike to me

[turbid dagger]

Like a baton you can stab with

[frank crystal]

Yah that would make sense tbh

Trenches are tight places

Having some stabbing ability is nice

[frank crystal]

Yah this link just isnt working

idk why

it wont load when I click on it

[carmine egret]

these are also all Albatross pilots

[craggy thunder]

tru

[clever cobalt]

it jsut takes a while to load

[turbid dagger]

May be playing Sundered Waves soon! Not usually a big fan of pregens but Jadren's really cool

[frank crystal]

What’s his deal?

[frank crystal]

Also good to know

[turbid dagger]

The game's conceit is that after finally getting captured, the crew of a famous pirate captain broke up and went their seperate ways after serving their respective sentences, and the four PCs are members of the crew coming back together after their captain's clockwork parrot arrives to each of them and tells them their captain died in prison, and has left their treasure to them
Everyone did something different after getting out of prison- Jadren, first mate to the captain, found god
Iomedae, to be exact
He's now a paladin in training
Each pregen has a paragraph about their relationships with the rest of the pregens and their overall personality and Jadren was uh
Kind of a dick
And now feels really bad about it

He is incapable of remembering the Elf Sorceror's name, and called the Tengu Rogue annoying bird related nicknames constantly

[clever cobalt]

Is he a redeemer champion?

[frank crystal]

Oh that’s really cool

[turbid dagger]

Iomedae, so Paladin
As you need to match them exactly (this is a pre remaster book)
But, it does mention that he feels drawn to former criminals like himself

[turbid dagger]

Also I think I've decided my next GMing project is gonna be a mid-high level PF2e short adventure
As followup to the level 1 oneshot I'm going into the last session of next Saturday
I'm thinking a siege on Kaer Maga by a mercenary army led by a Troll King
The players being adventurers brought on for the defense by a coalition of the anarchic city's biggest players
So they have to scout out the army's composition, recruit factions within the city that they think can most effectively counter said army, and do some Big Ass Fights as they race between key points in the city

[craggy thunder]

So my gm is taking a break til February and is restarting our game with the same premise but with a new, more experienced group

I have hope for it this time

[turbid dagger]

That's good
Sounds like it stumbled a bit at the start, with your char premise turning out to not be a great fit

[craggy thunder]

Ye it was part of the problem

Alongside just

Taking on too many variant and optional rules at once

With a new group

Also he said I can test my homebrew so I of course am gonna

[turbid dagger]

Oh yeah, I can see the dual class madness being Trouble

[craggy thunder]

Witch magus time

With the spellbook hybrid study

[barren cipher]

vanilla is a great flavour, honestly the best ice cream flavour

[turbid dagger]

I am on team 'free archetype is better than core' but yeah if you go too Wild Crazy things can get troublesome
I'm on like
Team Vanilla Chocoloate Swirl

[solar storm]

My pet variant rule is progressive ASIs

[warped orbit]

Gradual Ability Boosts is pretty good

[turbid dagger]

Oh yeah our Kingmaker game is doing Free Archetpye + Gradual and its pretty dang nice
My hogboblin fighter has 18 cha and Expert intimidation (from Marshal) at level 2 😌

[solar storm]

Oh thanks, I forgot the right name haha

[turbid dagger]

Basically, I'm a fan of rules that like
Let you customize your character more often and more distinctly
I want my Weird Blorbo
Which both FA and Gradual Boosts does in a way that does not heavily distort power levels

[solar storm]

But I like the way it feels much more than the large power jumps at 5th level and so on

[turbid dagger]

It also lets the weird martials like thaum and inventor feel normal for a larger part of their level spread

[craggy thunder]

We’re doing free archetype and uh

The rule where you don’t need fundamental runes

The plan is human changeling whose patron is their mom

I’m honestly very excited

Because, if I’m being honest, some of the people being as new as it being their first game was a bit grating at times

No fault of their own, new players are new players and I was once new to pf

[turbid dagger]

Thinking about modifying a Jotund Troll to be a normal, single headed troll thats Hard As Fuck as the final boss of the level 10 oneshot I'm now designing
And using the music function on Foundry to play Wolf Totem by The Hu for the fight

[clever cobalt]

How is Age of Ashes?

[silver geyser]

It suffers from Travel to Many Far-Off Places AP syndrome

Which is that it glances over a lot of bigger stuff and moves on

[clever cobalt]

Fair

Man I really want a custom campaign in Golarion still

But idk where I'm supposed to find one

[clever cobalt]

Random idea that just came to me: Alkenstar-y Gnoll Gunslinger Revolutionary

Not sure how to emphasize the "Revolutionary" part mechanically though

[craggy thunder]

vigilante archetype?

reflavored to be the character's double life?

[turbid dagger]

Is there any good way to throw together a custom NPC statblock for like, Foundry or somesuch

[young chasm]

age of ashes is also really notorious for being lethal

and has creatures that just don't make sense anymore

mostly because the AP was written before the system was fully developed

[turbid dagger]

But now, this chaotic system is under dire threat. Velghenn, an exiled Troll Augur of centuries past, returns wizened and scarred at the head of a great horde- allies made in far off lands and mercenaries bought with plundered coin. Calling himself the prophet of Urxhel, the Trollish god of wildfires and thunderstorms, Velghenn grinds across Varisia from the north with his eye set on the great Augur Temple near the city’s heart. 

If nothing else, Kaer Maga knows how to band together when its freedom is under threat. The news of so terrible a foe coming their way has united the disparate factions of the city as one, and they have pulled out all stops to see their home safe through Urxhel’s storm. The Augurs set down their gutting-knives and hone their claws in welcome of their lost son, the Duskrangers of the deep roads count their arrows, the necromancers pull zombies off their wagon-yokes and ready them for more stereotypical tasks, and the countless merchants of the city with no contraband pool their funds- to hire you. 

But even with all thoughts of factional squabbles put aside, one mystery remains tightly sealed behind great, stone doors-

What is it, that Velghenn seeks in the Augur Temple’s heart?```
I am cooking 🧠

[craggy thunder]

I am also cooking

but more a character concept

a somewhat young human changeling (like 30 tops)

who looks like a world-weary old woman

And acts as the advisor for the group, of the sage advice variety

old Impa magus basically

[turbid dagger]

Wondering if I should steal Magus mechanics for Velghenn or one of the Evil champion causes
Boss Stat Spellstrike likely instakills people too much so probably one of the champion causes

Also, fun side note while I was researching this:
PF1e writing sucks bad
Badder than I thought it sucked
There is so much Weird Sex Stuff in the book about Kaer Maga
Which I will artfully excise for mine I think
Also slavery, which will also be excised because why in gods name is it a place for outcasts to start anew if it has a thriving slave trade

[barren cipher]

it has a rather unfortunate name, doesn't it

[turbid dagger]

I have had that thought multiple times as I considered running a game there yes
Kaer Maga 😐
K
Kaer Maga 😰
Kaer MAGA

[barren cipher]

i would expect a few questions about which side the players are supposed to be on

[turbid dagger]

That is handily solved by 'kaer maga is paying you out the wazoo for help' as the starting conceit
The PCs thoughts on anarchy aside the primary motivator for this thing is Currency Acquisition
And also Velghenn isn't really looking for new dudes

Since its gonna be a level 11 mini adventure/oneshot its fine if its just 'go do your job'

[eager mountain]

vlook im a master in kaer maga

I practice every day at the local dojo

[clever cobalt]

Do you think the framing of a Thaumaturge as a Charles Darwin-esque Adventuring Biologist makes sense? As opposed to the more typical "van helsing monster hunter" type deal

[light gyro]

at the end of the day you're using your lore to perform unimaginable violence against monsters, which might be hard to reconcile with that. unless there's a way to build a support thaumaturge i suppose?

[solar tendon]

there's support options but you're still primarily a fighty martial

and mainly use the knowledge to do better violence

but yknow the darwin expedition was pretty dire ecologically afaik

eating giant tortoises and introducing rats

[light gyro]

charles darwin if he really wanted to eat the mo- im writing dungeon meshi again

[limber comet]

1800s explorers destroying the environment

[rustic cape]

There’s a reason Senshi and Darwin have the same beard

[craggy thunder]

divine lance being changed is making me think of picking up adapted cantrip of all fucking things

Fucking

Gun Hag?

Gun Hag???

gun hag

There's a gun hag

XDDDDDDDD

[sinful gyro]

What book's this from?

[craggy thunder]

Blood Lords AP?

[sinful gyro]

Ah nice

[frank crystal]

perhaps the coolest enemy of all time

[clever cobalt]

She needs a witches hat and we're gucci

[craggy thunder]

I'm tempted to make my changeling a Rust May

not an actual lineage feat for the heritage

but cuz if I do that and take Hag Magic I get a cast of 4th level summon construct

[echo briar]

https://twitter.com/OnCallGm/status/1742229471460229317 Field test 3 seems to be coming soon

[turbid dagger]

Hmmmmm
Still thinking about that Troll Champion boss
Tyrant's Reaction is actually really interesting as an enemy ability I think
Forces the players to make Cruel Choices

[eager mountain]

This will be my birthday present

[craggy thunder]

So

question

should I make a 4th level feat for this witch-magus archetype

That lets you or a familiar if you have one

Do that thing where witch familiars can munch on a spell scroll to learn a spell?

[warped orbit]

that's fine

[heavy fulcrum]

isnt that already part of witch spellcasting?

[warped orbit]

it basically just loses you the scroll in exchange for not needing to make a check

[craggy thunder]

It is, but this is a magus class archetype where you become something of a witch spellsword

[heavy fulcrum]

ah

[craggy thunder]

And part of not inheriting everything from witch is that your pact involves your patron sending you dreams and shit to write down in your spellbook as opposed to a familiar

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah then that makes sense as an option

[craggy thunder]

The reason I kind of want to make it a feat is that like

admittedly this is for a character I'm making

[heavy fulcrum]

its a minor convenience but some people will enjoy it

[craggy thunder]

a feral child with a sword balling up and eating a fucking scroll

Is hilarious

[heavy fulcrum]

(remember that by default, you can just use Learn A Spell on a scroll without using up the scroll)

[craggy thunder]

I mean sure

but again

[heavy fulcrum]

ye

[craggy thunder]

F u n n y

XD

[heavy fulcrum]

consume da magic

[craggy thunder]

Also the tradeoff of no check

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah

[craggy thunder]

Which tbh is fine with me

[heavy fulcrum]

(the DCs are really low tbh)

[craggy thunder]

I hate checks to learn spells anyways

fair

[heavy fulcrum]

https://i.imgur.com/LXdeNoh.png

and given youre almost alway using your best ability score and your best proficiency, failure isnt likely

the real reason to avoid the check is to save money

[warped orbit]

yeah but you also use up the scroll 😛

[surreal basin]

Ngl

I have wizards eat the scroll in my games anyway lol

[young chasm]

wait so is the feat just

consume scroll = no check

[barren cipher]

i'm not sure i'm spending real money for that

[surreal basin]

?

[barren cipher]

like if i could have a dedication feat or something

i think that would be better off rolled into the class archetype, i wouldn’t want to spend a class feat on avoiding occasional, easy and low-stakes checks

[young chasm]

also you can already kind of avoid it already through Magical Shorthand

[solar storm]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sih6?Field-Test-3-That-Cantina-Feel

Didn't realize this was coming so fast

[clever cobalt]

For a second I thought that was an SRO and got excited

Though Ancient Android seems to be a reference to Automaton?

Also VESK ARE NOW (technically) PLAYABLE IN PF2E

[clever cobalt]

Got into another game with Dual Class

Gonna go Red Dragon (thanks Battlezoo) Barbarian Monk

[craggy thunder]

I've given this some thought and I think I have an idea

hmmm

maybe not, it goes outside the bounds of both a magus and a witch

also god bless wood breastplates not being uncommon

[echo briar]

While the new starfinder felid test was great, I really wish something other than vesk was chosen.

The vesk could be a pathfinder ancestry mechanically. This would have been a great opportunity to see what makes SF2 ancestries' different, like 3+ arms or lvl 1 flight.

Then again, vesk have +physical +physical for the first time, so thats definitely something.

[thorny berry]

Idle thought: not counting thaumaturge, bomber alchemist might be the best class at identifying and hitting damage weaknesses?

int casters are all prepared (or are psychic with v low slots) but they can be pretty flexible with bomb selection if they're making on the spot.

[frank crystal]

Yah, I’m really interested in how they’d mechanize an ancestry with 4 arms

[thorny berry]

unless there's a good way for outwit ranger or investigator to get a bunch of damage types idk

[frank crystal]

Because if you just got an extra 2 arms, that would probably be one of the strongest ancestries immediately

Even if their feats were bad

And paizo seems really committed to balancing with 2 arms in mind

[echo briar]

Currently, you have a pair of "active" arms that you can actually use, and can switch which pair is active with an action, with feats that improve this.

But how feats improve this is huge

[thorny berry]

lack of decent alchemical ammunition probably takes alchemical ammo spellshot out of the running

[frank crystal]

Oh neat

[thorny berry]

oh wait missed elemental ammunition

[craggy thunder]

Would a spellstrike feat for a witch magus that gives the struck enemy a -1 on their save against the next hex said witch magus casts be a level 4 feat or thereabouts?

[thorny berry]

There's not much direct precedent for feats that enhance spellstrike, it's already pretty juiced

though it is only a -1 on a class that's probably iffy on casting save spells anyway so eh, probably fine

[craggy thunder]

Don't several hybrid studies have spellstrike juice feats?

[thorny berry]

Do they? I might be misremembering

ah yep you're right

[craggy thunder]

lol

sorry just

I literally looked at them, got an idea, then asked about said idea in this chat lmao

[thorny berry]

I'm smart

[craggy thunder]

XD

[thorny berry]

yeah compared to tagging a free feint on there with distracting spellstrike that seems fine

[frank crystal]

Also damn, the vesk are a 20 speed ancestry

[warped orbit]

it's very good, and easy to make/cheap

doesn't have all damage types, but most of the important ones

[thorny berry]

shame about the action to activate, but still. Could be a cute build with a taw launcher.

(assuming taw launcher works with gunslinger stuff I can't be bothered to figure out what counts as a crossbow this week)

[warped orbit]

yeah but you still get weakness procs and also persistent damage

[frank crystal]

Also kinda neat vesk get blood sense

[warped orbit]

it does

most Gunslinger stuff does work with crossbows

[craggy thunder]

the taw launcher counts as a crossbow, aye

[thorny berry]

shame spellshot can't take sniper's aim, since you'd probably prefer stuff like that that just doubles down on one shot

[craggy thunder]

which makes me very sad it's not one handed cuz part of me wants to make a conrasu drifter with one of its saber things

part of me wants to beeeeeend the rules a bit

around spellstrike

and let a witch-magus spellstrike with their hexes even without expanded?

[frank crystal]

That feels fine tbh

Hexes aren’t like

So insane that they’d mess up balance being able to spellstrike baseline with them

And it’s thematic

[craggy thunder]

It also lets this magus feel a lot more free to grab them

Though

hmm

letting these hexes count as conflux spells might be too much then

not the cantrips, the ones that cost focus points

is force fang a conflux spell?

oh it is

honestly then I'm okay with it

[turbid dagger]

I really wanna play a taw gunslinger one of these days
High level, tho
Early game gunslinger seems uh
Boring, frankly

[craggy thunder]

You know

I was wondering why the Gray Maidens were stuck in my mind

Figured it out lmao

[silver geyser]

Heh

[frank crystal]

Holy shit

It’s the same picture

Also, what would be the best way to represent a vampire hunter?

Like classic, leather coat, light armor, various tools and weapons

Not just a belmont lol

And of course some specifically anti undead abilities

[young chasm]

the other obvious vampire hunter answer is hellsing

[craggy thunder]

armored coat thaumaturge prolly tbh

maybe alch dedication?

[young chasm]

oh i see lmfao i'm way off with my answer

[frank crystal]

See that could mean VanHelsing the character from Dracula, arguably the prototypical vampire hunter

But I know you mean Hellsing the anime series where Dracula dual wields magnum pistols

[frank crystal]

Also that would make sense yah

[craggy thunder]

I hate that armored coat

is kind of bad

for martials

It maketh me sad

[frank crystal]

Yah

It can be slept in at least though

So it has that

And like, it looks like a coat normally

So it can be worn in situations where armor is considered in bad taste

[craggy thunder]

fair and true

I wish it was cheaper too

cuz I feel like my current character would wear it

But it's 20 gold for some reason even tho even with comfort it's comparable to other stuff

[frank crystal]

Yah it is weirdly expensive for the mathematically worst armor in the game

[thorny berry]

thaumaturge for sure imo

they're even pretty good whip users, at that

we love a little one-handed reach

[frank crystal]

I mean yah, but this is specifically not meant to be a Belmont build lol

This is more meant to be a classic vampire hunter

[thorny berry]

still, the 'knowing your enemy's weakness' thing

having lots of odds and ends

your van helsing hand crossbows if that's your jam

[frank crystal]

Yah I do agree thaum is probably best

[thorny berry]

amulet as a repelling holy symbol

[frank crystal]

I just wanted to specify I’m not planning to use a whip

[thorny berry]

sure, sure

[craggy thunder]

I'm gonna ask if my gm can reduce the price for the armored coat

on the logic of 'I am literally doing it for style on a character it will somewhat actively hamper'

since I'm a magus

[solar tendon]

the armored coat price is dumb yeah

especially since it's basically only viable pre level 5

[warped orbit]

yeah the comfort armor is just kinda...

I don't really like it

[turbid dagger]

I'm fairly certain the reason it's so expensive is more narrative
On that it is fancy tailored clothing+armor

It's 'we need to infiltrate the dukes gala' armor

[light gyro]

strength of thousands book 4 spoilers
||oh my god why are there so many npcs why do they keep adding more TEACHERS WE ALREADY HAVE LIKE EIGHT WHY DO WE NEED MORE STUDENTS WE HAVE TWENTY||

[ionic pier]

Thaumaturge is a great class to use as a base for this, I think

I'm not sure how well this would work with Thaumaturge, but

https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=174

You might be able to pair it with this feat, but it'd probably get clunky: https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3699

[eager mountain]

becuase

[solar jacinth]

Read through this and I would be so eager to play this kind of archetype. But man, it would have to be so specific to a campaign.

[ionic pier]

Yeah

[solar jacinth]

I've had a friend go all in on playing a Cavalier and the GM proceeding to make them fight in places where they can't use their mount. Which is just mean.

[light gyro]

re-reading the starfinder 2e test packs whilst listening to tron legacy oh shit im FEELIN IT

[ionic pier]

That's pretty lame

[light gyro]

was this a case of the gm not warning against unhelpful archetypes or a bait and switch? either way bleh

[solar jacinth]

Sadly, I know and have known people who think that being a dick is "part of the fun," of being a GM.

[solar jacinth]

Just them being mean, I think. The play was all for a Cavalier and really put their time and effort into the character. The GM said okay to everything and then thought it would be the height of comedy to find any excuse to take away their mount.

To me it's that poisonous mentality of thinking the relationship between the GM and players has to be adversarial.

[ionic pier]

GM card should be revoked shrug

[fast hill]

I think it's cool to have cavaliers fight in places where they cant use their mount

BUT

not all the time

it's especially cool when they have to do it and doing it is life or death

[craggy thunder]

my gm is amenable to reducing the price of the armored coat

and is designing a clothier npc that sells them lmao

[turbid dagger]

I just spent so long tweaking a Weak Jotund Troll to replicate a really strong level 14 Troll King only to learn that kingmaker has a variant Troll King statblock that's level 15 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭

[frank crystal]

Hmm, how viable is a gunslinger champion btw?

Like, gunslinger main class champion archetype

Because ranged smite seems really nice for it

[turbid dagger]

I'm told that champion is a Generally Pretty Nice Archetype
Since you get the reaction eventually, as well as heavy armor
I can see it really popping off on Vanguard or some other str heavy slinger, but its probably Nice on any slinger

[warped orbit]

Champ is good to archetype into

it doesn't even take that long to get the reaction, it's at 6 IIRC

[turbid dagger]

If you can make sure you end each turn loaded and still do your shot during your own turn Ranged Reprisal Paladin Slinger probably fucks insanely hard

Which is kind of a tall ask mind
Your kind of stuck in uh
'metareload'->'strike'->'metareload' loops if all goes to plan

[warped orbit]

the main part to keep in mind with Champ reaction is that you need to be within 15 feet of both the enemy and the attacked ally

[turbid dagger]

That's why you go Vanguard 😌

[frank crystal]

Yah vanguard definitely seems like the play then

[frank crystal]

Also that is kinda annoying

[turbid dagger]

So, how does this look for a PL+4 heavy duty boss for a level 10 party
Potentially with an NPC ally if they do some prep beforehand or look like they'd need it

(He is not supposed to be immune to mental whoops)

(Nor does he have a burrow speed ack)
(Using an automated sheet and it has a placeholder enemy in it that I apparently missed some stuff from)

[craggy thunder]

I have been inspired

to make a weird forge-witch patron

or a more generally crafting oriented patron

[solar storm]

I feel like he could use another little combat thing besides the giant charge

Actually Iron Command and AoO might be enough

[turbid dagger]

Iron Command and the focus spells are what I'm hoping will give it suitable Juice to make fighting it interesting
As well as the general troll weakness stuff

For context, I'm pulling the base stats from a level 14 Weak Jotund Troll (and what this monster builder suggests for a monster of this level), the evil champion stuff from a level 14 NPC in Stolen Fate, and the non magical abilities from the Troll King statblock, but with their DCs beefed up to match the spells

[solar storm]

the spells are neat yeah

[turbid dagger]

Flame Barrier I expect to be a fun surprise especially

[solar storm]

yeah for sure

[turbid dagger]

Almost want to give him Desperate Prayer but 3 focus points may be enough

[solar storm]

Desperate Prayer is a cool moment generator though

[turbid dagger]

Aw fuck it, I'll throw it in

[craggy thunder]

Source Ianthe the Kobold’s Homebrew Emporium
Your patron shows you the magic in dedicated practice of a craft.

Spell List arcane
Patron Skill arcana
Hex Cantrip exacting craftsman
Granted Spell your choice of conductive weapon or echoing weapon

Exacting Craftsman - Cantrip 1
Uncommon, Cantrip, Enchantment, Hex, Witch
Source Ianthe the Kobold’s Homebrew Emporium
Patron Theme The Toil of the Workshop
Cast 1 Action, verbal
Range 30 feet; Targets 1 creature
Duration Sustained up to 1 minute

You call upon your patron's power to better grease the wheels of social spaces. When you Cast the Spell, the target can Craft, Repair, Identify Magic within an item, or Identify Alchemy. The target gains a +1 status bonus to the skill used for the roll, and this bonus remains as long as you Sustain the Spell. The target is temporarily immune to exacting craftsman for 1 minute.```I think this might be my favorite patron

Real 'remember, Crafting is an Int skill!' vibes

[craggy thunder]

Okay so I think I have a full character now; Pactblade (witchy class archetype) Magus with the above patron, rust hag may changeling

[clever cobalt]

How much lore do we have on the Okaiyan?

Sorry, the Olehana

The Polynesian-esque wanderers of the Okaiyan ocean (basically Golarion's equivalent of the Pacific ocean)

All I know is Nahoa (the Exemplar Iconic) and Tehialai from Monsters of Myth

I hope we learn more about them in Tian Xia

[turbid dagger]

Given that, yeah, an Iconic is one, and the Tian Xia book is upcoming, I think us learning more is a very safe bet

[rapid wagon]

man ive been mesing around with hte pathbuilder 2e app to try and learn a bit about the game; monks seem pretty cool

though it seems regretful that I can't learn stumbling stance and also use a bo staff

[clever cobalt]

True!

Apperantly they've been around since Earthfall as well

At least going by Tehialai's lore

[turbid dagger]

In theory you can stance dance with stuff like Prevailing Positon but in effect you either do a stance or do weapons yeah

[rapid wagon]

its a big departure from the 1e and dnd5e monk but i think in a good way

a lot more flexibility in what kind of monk i wanna be

i know there are some style stances I can use weapons with with the monastic weapons feat

but not any stance that specifies you have to do a specific strike type

[young chasm]

on principle you shouldn't ever throw a +4 single enemy boss at your party

pf2e's numbers are so tightly balanced that they skew heavily in favour of a PL+4 encounter

players miss too often, the +4 boss crits too often etc

[turbid dagger]

The official nethys page on monster roles says this tho
Its intended to be an extreme solo encounter
I suppose I can make it a level 11 game to make it Severe instead though
Something to poll the group on I guess

[young chasm]

the official nethys page also cites the same book that makes it abundantly clear that you should basically never throw extreme encounters at your party unless you want it to be a big climatic combat at the end of a campaign or an arc within a campaign, and that you understand people are likely to die in an extreme encounter

[turbid dagger]

Its basically meant to be that yes
Its a one off adventure, with him intended as the final encounter

[young chasm]

another part of it 's the fact that single-enemy encounters are just kind of.. unfun? from a player perspective. the amount of actions a boss gets vs. the amount of actions a party gets usually means it ends up becoming a bit of a slapstick brawl where whoever drops first loses

you can make it an extreme encounter without necessarily having an extreme level boss fwiw

[turbid dagger]

Yeahhhh, I know
But like
I want to do a big scary solo boss
'bosses' that are one slightly stronger dude and however many mooks makes me a little sad
I fully intend on telling people that the final encounter is gonna be big and scary tho

[young chasm]

and again by sheer numbers this boss WILL crit more often and avoid incoming damage more often

yeah i totally get the appeal

like trust me i do

i've run these kinds of encounters in pf2e before

but i honestly think pf2e just isn't built for that kind of encounter

ultimately at the end of the day this is just my advice and experience from playing

so do with it as u will

it's your game after all

[turbid dagger]

I will try and keep it in mind, keep players informed and bump player level up if I think its too much
I've been thinking about the usual issues with solo bosses, as someone who has griped about them before
He's got very low AC for a level 14 creature, more in line with a level 12 creature- he has beef but also a very clear weakness, being a troll (he can damper that to an extent with Flame Barrier but only a few times)
He has a flavorful reaction that involves player choice so he's doing stuff even when it isn't his turn
The raw damage may be an issue, might knock his dice down to d8s or something
Give him a battleaxe instead of a greatclub, I dunno

[young chasm]

whats the party composition look like?

[turbid dagger]

None lol
I am designing it first recruiting second
I've never been great at designing on a schedule which is why I restrict myself to scenario style play instead

[young chasm]

ooh okay

[turbid dagger]

The conceit of the game is 'yo big troll warlord, get ready' so I hope they'll realize that targeting troll weaknesses may be useful

[young chasm]

one thing that does concern me about the balance of this character is the 15 reach +27 to hit

[turbid dagger]

I could make the to-hit lower, yeah
This is PL+4 we're already in Will Hit territory

[young chasm]

for a level 10 party, assuming you have a champion or a dex monk that has 31~ AC, they hit on a 4 or higher. and that's against the tankiest people in the game at that point

imagine what they would do to a caster lol

[turbid dagger]

Yeah I'll set it to recommended low to-hit for its level, see how that fares

[young chasm]

sounds good! i'm not sure how you plan on hosting or your method of recruiting but if it's for an online one shot and you need players i'd be happy to fill in

otherwise im interested in hearing out this fight pans out if not

[turbid dagger]

I run on Foundry
I have a Usual Circle for peeps I recruit from but not a lot are PF2e minded so there may be notices put up here or on the PF2e discord eventually

[young chasm]

👍

[turbid dagger]

It occurs to me that the best play may actually be to make this level 12, and un Weaken the Jotund stats back to level 15, or Elite them if I want to keep PL+4
Since then they'll be working with a new set of class feats as well as Greater Striking Runes

Because hopping the Greater Striking barrier is what makes this REALLY scary I think

(That is, the boss working with 3 dice while the players have 2)

[clever cobalt]

Random idea: Elemental Barbarian Automaton who cracks and sparks with electricity while raging

[turbid dagger]

Last thing about that boss:
Would you say this works for a Nephilim Troll
(Art is by trollfeetwalker)

I'm worried its not Snouty enough

To compare with a normal troll
Saying the nephilim juice gave him red skin and black hair

[rapid wagon]

Subjective question for yall, but if you were trying to emulate the pf1e shaman in 2e, as a healer, what would be your approach?

[turbid dagger]

Animist
The whole 'healer what hangs around with spirits' is kind of just Animist

[solar storm]

Yeah Animist is really ideal

[rapid wagon]

Oh sweet ok

We might be converting our carrion crown campaign

Into 2e in the future

And we have a healer shaman

I'm a paladin and it's easy enough to convert to champion

We also have a samurai, but I understand they can effectively just be a fighter?

Or also a champion?

[solar storm]

I don't know much about the PF1 samurai

What's its deal?

[rapid wagon]

It's a cavalier alt class effectively

Base version comes with a mount and a banner

And an order

[solar storm]

Ok so you'll want the Cavalier dedication for PF2

More than a specific class

https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=53

[rapid wagon]

Thinking probably a fighter, cavalier dedication, then weapon specialization into katana?

[solar storm]

Weapon specs are broader in PF2 but that would work

Ranger could also be a good option

[rapid wagon]

Sweet ty

It's not imminent I don't think, but we're table discussing it

[solar storm]

nice

Animis is in playtest atm but the edges aren't that rough

[turbid dagger]

For classes that aren't in playtest a clericy druid or druidy cleric might work with some light reflavoring
AIUI that's what Shaman started as in concept, a hybrid like how magus is fightwizard

Oh oracle/witch hybrid, how weird
Well, those things exist too

Man the more I thin about that the more surprised I am
I feel like Shaman is less weird than those two, not more

[silver geyser]

Indeed

[surreal basin]

Samurai would translate well into Fighter yes

Unless youre super into all the challenge and banner stuff

In which case you’re kinda. Shit outta luck

[clever cobalt]

What's a better resistance: Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing?

[light gyro]

for a player? slashing i think

monster claws, swords

[warped orbit]

Piercing is actually more common overall IIRC

[rapid wagon]

You'd probably get good returns on any of them I'd imagine, since I figure the margins between aren't massive

[light gyro]

speaking of BePiS damage, should i be convincing my bard to pick up a weapon? since they get critspec. currently their go-to damage dealer is telekinetic projectile.

[silver geyser]

They could stand to have a melee weapon, but it's not as necessary anymore since you can always threaten with Unarmed.

[warped orbit]

Having a shortbow or something can be okay for throwing in the occasional Strike

[silver geyser]

And it's just nice to have a knife for all the utility.

[warped orbit]

But it's not really needed IMO, you'll generally be much more effective using your spells

[turbid dagger]

They're probably fine with cantrips
Considering they have Compositions for Save Spell Turns anyway

[light gyro]

ty

[barren cipher]

yeah shortbow is a great idea

[light gyro]

strength of thousands spoilers ||maybe i'll shuffle that oathbow to be an oathshortbow to give them the option||

[warped orbit]

Bards actually have full martial prof now IIRC

[frank crystal]

Oh shit

Also has AOO not updated for the remaster yet?

Because it hasn’t mentioned that on the bard page yet

[solar tendon]

aon hasn't

[warped orbit]

Not yet

[frank crystal]

Oh huh

[river flicker]

Has anyone figured out how to use Investigator's Persue a Lead as a GM without it being migraine-inducing?

[solar tendon]

huh

howso

[river flicker]

It just feels a bit uncertain on how flexible I should be when the Investigator tries using it on something. I don't usually run "detective" style stories but I feel like there has to be a middle ground between "running a plot entirely devoted to let the Investigator shine" and "banning the class"

[young chasm]

honestly i just ban some of the class feats

investigator just does a lot of the solving of the mystery for you

things like That’s Odd are just so lame

[turbid dagger]

Investigators can always just pursue leads like 'what left these tracks' or 'who hung up the skulls outside the cave'
And get their free action devise against the bear that left the tracks or the orcs inside

So from the GM end, add lots of environmental deets like that
Or point them out when they ask/search/use That's Odd

[river flicker]

hmm, I suppose not everything needs to be an overarching mystery

how does That's Odd not drive Trapfinder into irrelevancy?

[turbid dagger]

Well trapfinder has benefits other than the auto check for traps

Let's you disarm harder traps for one

Also that's odd only points out one odd thing per room iirc

So if you go into a hall with an arrow trap and secret door, guess what

[light gyro]

GM: "Investigator would you rather know about the arrow trap or the secret door?"
Investigator:

[solar tendon]

traps are very rarely odd tbh

even if the presence of a trap was odd I'd only use it for that's odd if the investigator already spotted it another way

like you spot a trap and you notice that its odd for a trap to be here

[turbid dagger]

I dunno
A pressure plate or trip wire or arrow slot is like
Unusual
It's definitely 'out of the ordinary', which is what the feat calls for

[solar tendon]

yeah but like

a tiled floor isn't

pursue a lead is just a bonus to investigating things really

one you can share with clue in and gives a combat bonus if you fight something you've investigated at all

it's basically the same as hunt prey

which you can use out of combat

all the really 'problematic' feats are already uncommon for that reason so

[surreal basin]

Investigator only takes a minute to start an investigation too

Which, if your gm is appropriately generous, can lead to Funnies

“Adventurers, bandits have been spotted in-“
“IM INVESTIGATING THEM NOW”

[solar tendon]

yeah definitely

lego city

[surreal basin]

And investigator… uh… honestly really needs that free devise

[clever cobalt]

How hard would it be to use thr SF2e archetypes in a PF2e game

Or rather

[surreal basin]

To feel like they’re working

[clever cobalt]

The newly released species

Androids and Vesk

(The SF Androids I mean)

(From the Playtest)

[surreal basin]

Very compatible, but not worth doing if your GM isn’t introducing any OTHER sci-fi shit

Since a lot of the feats are based around being in a sci-fi setting lol

Like installing armor upgrades or using the computers skill

[clever cobalt]

Fair

It may be best to go Automaton and fluff it as like, either a weird time traveller or "they fell from the sky"

Fluff them as an SRO, I mean

[river flicker]

I go feral everytime Im reminded that Starfinder 2e still isn't out

[rapid wagon]

im currently running a sf pbp

dunno if we'll convert over

[clever cobalt]

I really want to play SF but I'm keeping my hands off of it until 2e comes out

[light gyro]

Brainstorming a campaign idea for a system that won't come out for ages!!!! Yippee!!!!!!!

[solar storm]

my stance as well

[turbid dagger]

I'm not sure about SF honestly
It seems kind of silly compared to PF
Very much 'PF IN SPACE' instead of its own thing?
But IDK, I have not given it a Proper Look yet because I ain't touching anything with 1st edition PF/3.5 DNA, so thats prob not a fair assesment
Looking forward to 2e to give me a chance to give it a closer look tho

[rapid wagon]

In my experience with it, it's a bit more loosey goisey

Goosey *

Very much "everything and the kitchen sink" scifi

I think it's fun enough in 1e

[thorny berry]

yeah, like, imo it's a real problem that 'optimal' investigator play is annoying the shit out of your gm constantly

I think one possible compromise is to just have them ease off and then, when you roll initiative, let them ask 'could I have investigated xyz'? and grant them the lead for that combat

which is certainly a buff but like who cares it's a dumb mechanic

also, funny thought: backpack catapult investigator

'as soon as I Devise a 20 it's over for your motherfuckers'

though I suppose a fatal d12 gun is still better

[turbid dagger]

Our Investigator hasn't been hugely disruptive in our games
He just goes 'thats odd?' and GM goes 'yeah, x' or 'no'

[thorny berry]

yeah don't get me wrong I think in practice most people get the kind of implicit social contract around that sort of ability

I just think it's silly that the mechanics incentivize being a pest

[solar tendon]

Idk I see it more as incentivising engaging with the world lol

investigator just gets bonuses to things they mostly should be doing anyway

like as a gm I am not in any way annoyed by player literally just playing the game

[rapid wagon]

i mean, if it gets obnoxious, i think thats a talk with the player issue perhaps less than a class issue

because players can be obnoxious with anything

don't need a class to do that

[light gyro]

No amount of safeguarding can make a game immune to bad faith and so on

[rapid wagon]

question, where can one find the playtest docs/info regarding the pf2e Animist?

is this the correct one? https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/classes/animist-playtest?

[solar storm]

yeah

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sie7

Also as a pdf here

[clever cobalt]

One thing I likein fiction is uh

Culture shock

And I'm reminded of this because the Exemplar Iconic somehow went from the Pacific Ocean Equivalent (being part of what is essentially Golarion's Polynesian equivalent) to Northern Avistan

While fighting a demon

It's a bit silly but idk, I like when people from other cultures meet and have culture shock. It's both interesting and entertaining to me

Also the Exemplar Iconic reminds me of Maui a bit

Which is probably intentional

[craggy thunder]

So I’m gonna be in a two player dual class beginner box sesh today lmao

Now to think about combos

[silver geyser]

Alright, i come with a challenge I'm having.

How would one describe the positive points of Zon Kuthon?

[turbid dagger]

He takes people and makes them into something he and his followers, genuinely, believe is better
And if that person comes to see things the way Zon and his followers do, they will be grateful for the change
By accepting Zon Kuthon's worldview, the pain inherent to existence is transformed into pleasure and joy

[silver geyser]

Alright, fair!

I ask because I get to have a Shelyn Worshipper and a Kuthite in the same party.

And I am going to enable the hell out of that opportunity.

[craggy thunder]

oh man

Sounds fun

So far the druid and divine witch magus duo is fun

[eager mountain]

moving here from tabletop

sooooo the 2 nagas that ive heard about for monster core is like

that black one I posted in tabletop

and the evolution of the guardian naga

appearently one of them can do " Coils of Knowledge "

which requires you to make a will save or else it grapples you in it coils

and theres another one that can like , forgo the damage on it poison bite ..... BUT cast a spell on you from any distance as long as your effected by its poison

[kind oracle]

sick

[true delta]

Gatewalkers opinion question: Does the fact Kaneepo uses they/them pronouns make them a queer-coded villain? Is this bad?

[unborn rain]

That makes them a queer villain

[solar tendon]

they're non binary because they're fey which is kinda in the realm of queer coding

in that diagetically they're just what they are

but like queer ppl can be villains it becomes problematic when they're only villains haha

or comic relief etc

[unborn rain]

I think it's cool that there are queer villains. As like, only ever having queer heroes is kind of boring and adds to like the idea of Queer people have to be perfect to be acceptable.

Whilst just having queer people of all kinds is better for queer people just being people

[solar tendon]

coding isn't inherently bad either. in a lot of settings its the only way to have representation at all in a certain area

there's kinda a Thing with enby-coding inhuman creatures that can get dicey but again it's like if you just have non binary characters in your setting too it's fine (probably)

[light gyro]

ran an AP where a goon was incidentally agender I thought that was neat

(iirc they were human)

[rustic cape]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1901kx3/golems_are_going_away/?share_id=L9OSJrtkAjMp0WweF2CnG&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1

Good riddance, I say

[unborn rain]

Golems are going away, to be replaced by things which use a similar rule which is just better written

Although replacing them being called golems is a good choice imo

especially when you get to like "Flesh Golems" which are kind of gross from a stand point of where Golems come from

[carmine egret]

yeah I've seen some folks express discomfort at an element of Jewish folklore getting turned into a Generic Monster Type

[rustic cape]

Specifically portraying a mythical protector of Jewish communities from anti-semitic violence as a mindless servitor made from random stuff was maybe not great

[craggy thunder]

I wonder what name one would replace ‘golem’ with

Not automaton that’s an ancestry

I think it could be fun if it was just ‘animated X’

Animated Stone, Animated Iron

[warped orbit]

Extrapolating from the one in Rage, its gonna be Bastion

[rustic cape]

Servitor would be good

[barren cipher]

i would probably lean towards avoiding any terminology used by games workshop, if only in order to avoid player misunderstandings

bastion seems a bit generic, i would be pretty sad if they went with that

flesh thaumautomaton animated by neurotransmitters

[light gyro]

Armored Cores......

[turbid dagger]

I'm fine with bastion, fits what they are
Inanimate lumps that exist only to beat intruders to death

[surreal basin]

To leverage some insider knowledge I MAY have

They aren’t even going to be a proper family anymore afaik

Just a set of constructs with similar spell resistance mechanics

They do share a naming scheme tho, material noun

[light gyro]

ROCK LOBSTER 🎸

[warped orbit]

yeah I saw they mentioned a Stone Bulwark in the post
so it seems that will be the scheme now

[turbid dagger]

FLESH HEAP

[echo briar]

STONE STONE

[barren cipher]

doesn’t do much offensively but will outlast any level-appropriate party foolish enough not to disengage

on the rare occasion it does take damage it often fragments into two or more copies of itself

[light gyro]

friend jusxt told me about the spellstriker staff. NEAT

[stoic dawn]

I wanna let you all know

I just ran two pathfinder sessions back to back

both like 5-6 hours

it's the next day and I am still so fucking cooked

my players are doing so well. but oh god. oh god.

they briefly met my favorite npc

the wizard got some huge W's out of scorching ray

Deja Vu is still the most important spell the party has

[limber comet]

I'm so excited to see the hag changes

[craggy thunder]

how are hags changing?

[scenic patio]

Anything associated to wizards of the coast is getting the boot, such as owlbears. So in hags case much like dragons they won’t be associated with color or some regions. I suspect that they will more than likely have hags be related to more they’re mythological backgrounds as well as regional. It’s sad to see, but I feel its a over all necessary change all things considered 😪.

[limber comet]

They're going more folklore with the direction they're taking them

[craggy thunder]

hell yeah

[clever cobalt]

What do we know of Aucturn?

Aside from it being potentially a baby Great Old One in the form of a planet

[turbid dagger]

Huh
Is there any spell that does Persistent Mental Damage?
I just realized that Agonizing Rebuke is a Seperate Phenomenon from Persistent Damage so you could have both running at once
And Psychic's Amped Daze gives weakness to mental...

[unborn rain]

There's many to my knowledge

[solar tendon]

savor the sting for one

[unborn rain]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=220

[warped orbit]

Phantom Pain

[unborn rain]

Another example

[solar tendon]

metal gear solid

[turbid dagger]

Hobgoblin psychic with the Daze subclass and Phantom Pain seems pretty slick then ngl

[turbid dagger]

Ohhhh, its Silent Whisper
So Forbidden Thought is also on the table, that's a real good spell

[craggy thunder]

https://tenor.com/view/ahab-mgs5-mgsv-phantom-pain-big-boss-gif-8358946813282220207

[turbid dagger]

Any recs for cool level 10-14 NPCs
Preferably like, sapient mortal creatures over animals and outsiders
Tho war beasts and summoned outsiders would also be fine I guess
Trying to figure out dudes for a Big Scary Army

I've got uhhhh
Elite Hryngar Brecia's and an Elite Hryngar Battlepriest
And probably want a dragon? Either a young one or one of the weaker adults

But for a level 12 game all those guys together probably only constitutes one fight lol, and that's using multiple Breccias

[rapid wagon]

Question, is the aldori duelist archetype good/ fun?

[turbid dagger]

Its got two things that are Aldori Dueling Sword only versions of regular Duelist archetype feats, and way less feats total, but Duelist's Edge and Saving Slash is pretty neat
If your getting it over regular Duelist its for those two things, so look at them and see if they interest you

[rapid wagon]

Mmm ok

Definitely an initial interest due to the flavor/lore

Ty

[turbid dagger]

Aldori Dueling Swords are cool indeed
Tho for general purposes I mostly rec just taking regular Duelist

[echo briar]

Do you think theres going to be PF2 feats for SF2 classes and vis versa? Because it could kinda suck if we never got a PF2 version of the envoy because we have a "compatible" version in SF2, but the SF2 version is so sci-fy based that reflavoring is near impossible.

and it would equally suck if the SF2 envoy was so generic that it could fit in either system

Same with the inventor, just reversed.

[surreal basin]

I think Vis versa, yes

However, I don’t think there will be PF2E feats for Starfinder Content

Starfinder 2e is kinda an expansion pack for PF2E

[clever cobalt]

Yeah, that's how it feels at least

[echo briar]

I mean, that seems like setting SF2 up to fail

[rapid wagon]

i enjoy sf1 well enough

[turbid dagger]

I don't really see how
SF is using Pathfinder's base system but its its own game with its own APs and releases and such
So even if it can't be supplemented with PF stuff as easily as PF can be supplmented with SF stuff its still gonna be doing its own thing
See: Starfinder 1e being wholly incomptabile with PF2e but still having its own releases running in tandem with PF

[rapid wagon]

Does teh thaumaturges exploit weakness, mechanically, just creat a weakness on the creature to let you do more damage to them?

[turbid dagger]

Yep

Unless you choose the option that lets you exploit an existing one

You give them Weakness: You

[echo briar]

Well I was more referring to the one way conversions that the people before me though was going to happen. That PF2 stuff can will have SF2 options, but not the other way around.

I would expect nothing or something both ways, not a weird one way conversion.

[turbid dagger]

Well, I'm not sure how true that'll pan out to be
The main like, fundamental differences between SF and PF mechanically, that we've seen so far, is area attack weapons and the seperate upgrade tracks
But the upgrade track thing mainly matters when trying to use PF weapons in starfinder, and only at very low pre Rune levels
While area attacks (and by extension the Soldier) have no rep in PF yet but its possible that they're coming
I would buy some dwarven hand mortar or something coming to PF at some point

[echo briar]

Yea, but I'm talking classes, and in particular if classes from one game will have feats/conversions to make them work better in the other game.

It would kinda suck if we never got any envoy like class in pathfinder because we got one in starfinder, and it only sorta kinda works if you squint

From what we've seen, mystic is a bad conversion, but thats almost entirely because 60% of its feats are sci-fi.

[turbid dagger]

Yeah I don't think there's gonna be a 'low tech' version of Soldier or Mystic
But I also don't think there's gonna be a high tech Thaumaturge or Barbarian

If your playing a Soldier in PF you probably arrived on Golarion in a flying saucer and you know what
That's alright

[surreal basin]

Starfinder is confirmed gonna have like

fighter and rogue and such

Which is why they’re branching classes like soldier and operative to be their own things

But if you aren’t including starfinder content, how do you make a guy whose bit is heavy weapons WORK in PF1E

[turbid dagger]

I guess my thinking is that like
Yeah the PF2e classes are going to be in Starfinder
But classes like thaum and cleric are still going to be weird all magic no tech things, thaum will have talismans and scrolls and esoterica and so on
So if your going to put the classes who are more tied up in Starfinder's core conceit in to a Pathfinder game, you should probably make allowances for them using Starfinder items

[young chasm]

i don't think they're going to be "in" sf2e, they're just compatible with the system since they'll use the same action economy and large majority of the same conditions and traits

at most you'll have to do some adjustments to make stuff fit in the other system

[surreal basin]

I mean they've all but said they will be, since again, that's why they're designing the SF2E classes to be like

very specific mechanical concepts

[sinful gyro]

I assume they will be in cos it'll be cross compatible

But they're probably not like, putting rogue in the SF2e core rule book

[turbid dagger]

Yeah Soldier is like
Strange
It plays weird
It's not just Generic Gunshoot because there are PF classes that can and will cover that

[rapid wagon]

I suspect SF2 is intended to be its own thing and not just a stapled on pf2 scifi extravaganza

[sinful gyro]

Ye

It's just nice they can work together

And saves Paizo making two different rule systems

[rapid wagon]

I don't think they're gonna like design every sf2 class to bend over and around all pf2e classes

so there will likely be some thematic overlap

and possibly even flavor overlap

and mechanical lack of necessity

[young chasm]

ya

paizo struck a winning formula with pf2e

no need to make major changes to whats working

[turbid dagger]

I mean, they explicitly said they designed Soldier this way WRT Fighter

[rapid wagon]

its be weird as hell to play sf2 with a massive Fighter shaped hole in its playstate imo, I suspect they'd also acknowledge this.

"In order to play Starfinder and have a balanced party, you must use a different game's class" is not a fun vibe

[solar storm]

I doubt they'll leave mechanical holes for PF2 classes

yeah

You might wind up with a lot of overlap if you combine some classes across the games but that's part of the fun

you can be like this

[rapid wagon]

also "Thanks for picking up starfinder, did you know that as a hidden cost, you also have to buy pathfinder to play starfinder?" is also a wack vibe

[turbid dagger]

That doesn't feel like as much of an issue when all mechanics exist for free online with Paizos approval

[rapid wagon]

eh, its still an issue in regards to purchase expectations and what you get out of a single game book. Especially if you start a game or buy a game and it tells you or expects you to have another game to play it; which is why i find that interaction highly doubtful

[echo briar]

They have explicitly said otherwise. They are designing the classes to not step on the PF classes toes

[rapid wagon]

freely available =/= natively part of the game state

There are like more than 10 pf classes, some toes are going to get stepped on

[echo briar]

The soldier is designed so that it is not too similar to the fighter or gunslinger mechanically

The operative is designed to not be too similar to the rouge

[rapid wagon]

do we know what that looks like yet on paper? I can understand saying and seeing somewhat unique mechanical identities, but ultimately theres a strong chance they fall into similar overlapping party roles or character themes

[echo briar]

If this continues post CRB, there needs to be conversions, or both systems will just have weird holes that are left kinda sorta filled

[rapid wagon]

Well no, Pf2 has access to all the roles it needs to be played without sf2. I'd fully and completely expect sf2 to be the same

and not need pf2 to be played

[echo briar]

There is a difference between what is needed to be played, and what fills all the rolls.

Like the envoy roll is unfilled in PF2

[rapid wagon]

is it?

[echo briar]

will there be redundancy between systems? will there be conversions? Will they leave it as is? that is the question.

[echo briar]

Yes. A non magical support class has been asked for sense the beginning. And we only kinda have it, but not in the way that most fans of the idea want.

Also, they can just reprint the classes they think will work best.

[surreal basin]

Envoy feels like the easiest class concept to just allow wholesale

In PF

[echo briar]

Add new feats, change up a few abilities, it takes up page space, but so would a new class that did the same thing

[echo briar]

depends on the feats. Mystic works perfectly well except for the feats

[rapid wagon]

end of the day, I'd probably engage with sf2 on its own, and not under the purview of how it staples onto pf2, and would be immensely dissappointed if the cross compatibility wasn't just a bonus feature and luxury

[echo briar]

I agree, its just that they seem to be on a weird middle path that could cause problems a few years after the games launch if not addressed. And now is the time to address them.

[surreal basin]

I would just read over what the devs have posted then to make sure you’re like, fully on board with it all

[thorny berry]

they definitely seem designed to work standalone

I think the only real reservation I have is things like them going 'well soldier can't just be fighter again so it's kind of a tank instead I guess', I'm wondering if sf is going to fall into some weird design space to avoid stepping on pf2's toes

[turbid dagger]

Envoy? No magic support?
Was it
Was it Warlord 👀

[frank crystal]

I mean there is also the fact that a specific team comp isn’t really necessary in PF2E already

You never need a fighter

Any martial class will do

And there still will be martial classes in SF2E

[rapid wagon]

I'm curious to see just how distant the mechanical identities really are in the end, or if they will be meaningfully distinct but closer than is implied

because martials often have different approaches to achieve the same goals

[turbid dagger]

Looking up Envoy
Christ I Want This
Bwease
Lazylord in PF2 🥺

[rapid wagon]

envoy is fun in 1e too, i like it cause i like to play a snarky space scoundrel

and it fits better for that than operative

im sad my pbp has no envoys

[frank crystal]

What do you think warlord would do?

Like the special action it gets

[sinful gyro]

Whenever you war, lord

[turbid dagger]

There's already some similar stuff in the Marshal Archetype and Warrior Bard
I'm no game designer tho
I just like pointing at a bad dude and going 'fighter, twist his nuts'

[frank crystal]

Fair enough

[echo briar]

Unrelated, but if they can't use the name "flurry of blows" in the remaster, what should it be called?

[sinful gyro]

Endless blows

Countless

[echo briar]

I mean, 2 is pretty easy to count.

[sinful gyro]

Not while being punched in the face

[turbid dagger]

Flowing Combo
Flurry of Maneuvers being Flowing Maneuver

Or just Combination Blow if you want to be more generic
As that's the origin of 'combo' I think, fits whats happening, and lets people shorten it as Combo 😌

[scenic patio]

Does anyone have a stat block for a high lvl CR wizard NPC?

[echo briar]

define high level. lvl 10? 15? 20?

[scenic patio]

15-20 basically

[echo briar]

https://2e.aonprd.com/NPCs.aspx?ID=1597

https://2e.aonprd.com/NPCs.aspx?ID=1595

[scenic patio]

Thank you perfect

[rapid wagon]

The drifter gunslinger seems really cool

Do they have the mobility their fluff implies?

[turbid dagger]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=909
https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=907
These both help mobility a lot yeah
And with Running Reload your usual Gunslinger Loop has strides baked in
Though, notably, Drifter is encouraged to stick to its native metareload as it is A Whole Extra Strike

[rapid wagon]

So they'd be a bit of a mix up play style? Weave in and out of melee?

[turbid dagger]

More like melee and ranged at the same time
Its for dudes who want to do cutlass and pistol pirates or uh
Bloodborne

A lot of the time you'll just be shooting dudes point blank then stabbing them with your reload

[rapid wagon]

ah yeah ok

i figured itd encourage a shoot -> go in melee -> get out shoot -> go in melee style

Is there anything that encourages what I'm imagining above? A sort of engage/ disengage/ re-engage play style?

[turbid dagger]

Hm, its difficult, because movement is typically tied to Actions, so there isn't a lot of superfluous movement in the game
You may want to look at Triggerbrand though, it has a Step built into its native metareload and is all about combination weapons

[rapid wagon]

Ok cool ty

[young chasm]

this isn't the case at all?

everything starfinder related is freely available and accessible

[rapid wagon]

I said later in that same conversation, freely available =/= part of the same game.

That and people do still buy things like the crb and adventure paths

[young chasm]

i might be misunderstanding but

starfinder has it's own core rulebooks as well

[unborn rain]

SF2e is a different game using the same base system, you don't need any PF2e stuff for it?

[rapid wagon]

Yes, to give a bit of background, there were some thoughts thrown out that SF2 was just plotting out to be an expansion that hinges / moulds around pf2e, a lot of my sentiment was in opposition or rejection to that notion

My expectation is that SF2 is its own thing that has the means to interface with Pf2 across a number of vectors

[barren cipher]

yeah, i don't think that's been the case from anything paizo has said

[rapid wagon]

rather than hinging on pf2

[warped orbit]

yeah

[turbid dagger]

Yeah I do think you'll be able to get all the starfinder books and none of the pathfinder books and play everything fine
My take was more that there are going to be mechanical niches left unfilled because a PF2e class could be imported to do it pretty much fine
We're unlikely to get Space Fighter printed in a Starfinder book for no reason other than 'starfinder should have a class that plays like fighter'
Because you can just play Fighter for that
But the broad archetypes of 'beefy martial' 'stabby martial' 'lightning mage' 'bandaid mage' are going to have full rep in SF, you won't need pathfinder to have a full spread of class roles

[surreal basin]

so at the end of the current dungeon

I'm going to let my players become Enlightened

Which will give them incredibly powerful at will abilities

which come at the cost of increasing their doomed value, which cannot be counteracted, and only goes away on a long rest

stuff like changing what save a spell targets as a free action metamagic, or combining an equivalent rank two-action spell with a heal

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-blink-cat-blink-cute-heyyitsaj-gif-3451531398210095357

were people talkin about sf2e

[eager mountain]

theyve said multiple times in sf2e talks that like, SURE the 2 games are comaptable all the way , but like .... the meta around the play spaces dont exactly match up

sure you can play a Soldier in pf2e, but like where are you gonna get all the guns and shit that soldier needs?

or the aoe firearms and suchs

Or like sure you can play a rogue in SF2e , but there isnt much for rogue if they need to hack terminals or stuff like that

or how firearms in general are just gonna be way more common in sf2e, so is taking cover and what not

[eager mountain]

yeah the problem was that soldier in starfinder 1e was basically a fighter, and became very about melee

infact melee as a whole in sf1e outclassed most things

and thier trying to move away from that

there might be some melee stuff for soldier, but its gonna be more about wielding all kinds of guns and stuff

big guns and battlefield manipulation I think

idk , ive not looked at the playtest stuff s ofar

[eager mountain]

yeah I think thats bascially what thier going for

like for example, recently , they released Android andddddd its got the pf2e android hertiages as a part of it , simply as " Ancient android "

[fossil temple]

Is the Player's Guide 2.0 book released?

[rustic cape]

The remaster Player Core is out, yes

[fossil temple]

Oh nice, thank you!
Been a while since I touched pathfinder 2e!
What where the biggest changes?

And does Archive of Nephys updated on the changes of the remaster?

[paper inlet]

Remaster isn't on Nethys yet

[fossil temple]

okidoki, thank you!

[paper inlet]

And for big changes...aligment is gone

[fossil temple]

so i heard, now is holy and unholy damage

And Witch got a huge rework, right?

[sinful gyro]

A decent sized one yeah

[eager mountain]

gotta wait till player core 2 for alchemist, barbarian, champion, investigator, monk, oracle, sorcerer, and swashbuckler

[fossil temple]

Nice, that's fair yeah.
Thank ya

[clever cobalt]

Kinda wanna make an Exemplar named Weydan

[crude socket]

hmm, make my lvl 4 rogue better at tripping or at intimidation

decisions decisions

[silver geyser]

Scary is fun.

[crude socket]

scary is indeed fun

better at intimidation than athletics atm too

[clever cobalt]

What ancestries do you think fluffwise make the best Animists?

Like purely conceptually, ignoring the mechanics and whatnot

I feel like Lizardfolk/Iruxi, Gnolls/Kholo, and Dwarves are good picks personally

[sinful gyro]

Conrasu?

[clever cobalt]

Aren't Conrasu quasi-outsiders

[silver geyser]

Elves feel right

[warped orbit]

ish
they are sort of Aeons

[sinful gyro]

Yeah like, aeon adjacent

But focused on nature

[clever cobalt]

Fair

[frank crystal]

Also I feel like orcs are another thematic choice

[clever cobalt]

I had a concept for a character that could work as an Animist instead of a Druid

Basically a Fleshwarp from Numeria who fled into the Stolen Lands and learned how to survive there, mostly by learning magic and the ways of nature

It wouldn't be hard to fluff them as like, learning to call spirits and whatnot

[warped orbit]

I will also note, Animist is not even that focused on nature necessarily

[clever cobalt]

And by concept I mean I briefly played them in a Kingmaker campaign

It was fun

[silver geyser]

They are focused on spirits, iirc

[warped orbit]

several of the spirits are focused more on human things

[clever cobalt]

This lad, who I've posted before

[warped orbit]

it really depends on what spirits you choose

[turbid dagger]

Yeah you hand out with weird ghosts of all kinds
Predator ghosts, war ghosts, spooky ghosts

[clever cobalt]

Also they're adding more spirits in the Monster Core

[silver geyser]

And if WtF has taught me anything, there's a spirit for any given thing

[clever cobalt]

So Animists' spirit detection and interaction stuff will be more relevant

Also to quote someone else

"I mean I watched Luis say In this discord that he wanted a divine caster that wasn't Christian coded, because fictional representations of non-christian/roman coded religions tend to get 'primalized'"

From the PF2e Discord

Feels relevant to this convo