Pathfinder

[clever cobalt]

Starfinder Owlcat Game

[sinful gyro]

That was a big rumor before they said rogue trader

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[sinful gyro]

I don't think they ever said no to the idea

But why would they say no

[clever cobalt]

I am very eager for Starfinder 2e

[frank crystal]

I’m still really interested in rogue trader

An owlcat game not with 1e combat sounds

Amazing

[sinful gyro]

Yeah I hope its good

[thorny berry]

I'm wary of warhammer as a setting but I'll probably check it out eventually

[sinful gyro]

I might not play it till a few months after release

[thorny berry]

given a month or twenty for bug fixing

[sinful gyro]

Ye

[frank crystal]

also ngl I’ve been avoiding playing Baldur’s Gate 3 because they keep updating the game with new story stuff and I don’t wanna play it until they’re done

[craggy thunder]

Honestly same

[sinful gyro]

I'd say you're probably safe now unless they do dlc Magma

[craggy thunder]

Tyranny had such incredible vibes

[frank crystal]

I’m not sure tbh

With how ||Karlach’s quest being unfinished means she’s still stuck in her bad ending||

Endgame BG3 spoiler

[sinful gyro]

I don't think they'll change it more than they did with the new epilogue

Like that was the chance to do it

[frank crystal]

I guess yah

I’ll hold out hope though

[sinful gyro]

Also I'd say it is finished but that's just me

[frank crystal]

I know it’s finished

And people still find it amazing

But I hate the feeling of like, playing a game

[sinful gyro]

Cos with the same logic ||astirion is stuck in the bad ending||

[frank crystal]

It being updated

And finding out I missed stuff because I already passed it in my current playthrough

[sinful gyro]

Fairs

[turbid dagger]

But yeah a PF2E actual rules adaptation would be sick
And SOT would be a great fit
It comes already set up with classmates who could be party members
Unfortunately the magic school conceit somewhat spoils it

[sinful gyro]

The mythic levels one coming up would probably be good

Whatever its called

[turbid dagger]

I doubt a crpg would do free archetype even if everyone else does 😛

[frank crystal]

It would seem like a good follow up to WOTR

[sinful gyro]

Where a gods gonna die

[frank crystal]

With how much that game dealt with the divine

[turbid dagger]

War of the immortals is a content book not an AP iirc

[frank crystal]

You’ll pry free archetype from my cold dead hands

If it’s not a base mechanic

I will get a mod

[sinful gyro]

But there is an AP to go along with the book right?

[turbid dagger]

Like secrets of magic
There likely will be an AP that employs stuff introduced there
But it has yet to be announced

[sinful gyro]

Secrets of magic, guns and gears, dark archive

Etc

[turbid dagger]

We are still on Season of Ghosts and Sky Kings Tomb AP wise

[sinful gyro]

There's the Tian Xi one to

And that 200 edition one

[turbid dagger]

Yeah that's a Lost Omen book
Mwangi Expanse is kind of bundled with SOT but idk if Tian Xia will get that also
I think a core flaw with expecting an upcoming AP to be CRPG material is that they've stated that theyre leaning away from 1 to 20s
Cuz they don't sell well

[sinful gyro]

I thought Tian Xi got two books confirmed

One lost omens, one AP

[turbid dagger]

Season Of Ghosts may be the AP

It's set in Shenmen

[sinful gyro]

Oh it is the AP then

For the Tian Xi book

Like as a pair

The same way they pair a lot of books with an AP

[turbid dagger]

Ye
Get Obsidian to channel Tyranny and do Blood Lords

[thorny berry]

au contraire, it's a great place for owlcat to include the signature half-baked and dubiously functional subsystem

[sinful gyro]

Exactly

It's tradition

[thorny berry]

like I assume they dump the free archetype aspect for

[sinful gyro]

Auto resolve school please

[thorny berry]

some shit to that effect

[turbid dagger]

Ohhhhhh my god
Fucking ACADEMIA
STUDYING PROJECTS
'would you like to disable the school system?'
(This locks out the best ending)

[thorny berry]

see, now you're getting it

owlcat attempt at persona school/life sim stuff lmao

[sinful gyro]

You had to research the dinkle juice so you could feed it to Snarf to get the Snarfloxid ending where he sacrifices himself so you can live

[frank crystal]

I just wanna play my cool orc barbarian

Why must I wizard?

[frank crystal]

PERSONA PATHFINDER

[sinful gyro]

Maybe you got in on a sports scholarship

[thorny berry]

shooting myself in the head but it doesn't crit so it's caster-level damage

(I know I know evokers weren't guns)

[turbid dagger]

But yeah
Every classmate could make a good party member
Haibram monk
Chezire alchemist
etc

[frank crystal]

Let me play a kineticist

Please

Please oh god

[thorny berry]

0% chance

for a first 2e game absolutely not

summoner equally 0%, probably non-core/apg classes generally

probably not alchemist

[turbid dagger]

The 1e crpgs had like 49 classes or some shit no

[thorny berry]

eventually!

I forget what kingmaker launched with

though even they still didn't have summoner funnily enough

but that's what I'm saying they'd probably follow the same progression and have more classes in future dlc/games

while they build out the engine

[turbid dagger]

Summoner seems hard to implement like, mechanically
It's something that kind of wants a human brain

[frank crystal]

Perhaps yah

[thorny berry]

also probably no gunslinger/inventor anyway just because owlcat isn't big on that sort of thing tonally, they never did 1e gunslinger

[frank crystal]

Baldur’s gate has summonable stuff

But it also like

Immediately used to break things

So like, ehhhhhhhh

[frank crystal]

That’d be actually unfortunate imo

[turbid dagger]

It's more like
Linked HP
The weirdness with AOE effects
Act Together

[thorny berry]

please god let summoner someday receive a remaster that just gives them four actions

act together is such gross design

[turbid dagger]

You take that back damn you

Act together is neat

[thorny berry]

I will do no such thing, it's wildly convoluted all for the sake of... what, preventing you from using dragon breath and a spell on the same turn

for a class that's firmly mid-tier

[turbid dagger]

It would also let you cast two spells for no particular reason

Like class concept wise

[thorny berry]

at master proficiency with an almighty four daily spell slots

I say let em

even 'four actions and each body must take at least one action' would be pretty similar and wildly less complicated

hell, body and eidolon each casting spells would at least give fey eidolon an actual niche

[turbid dagger]

I've never really had issues with it really
It's a fun little gimmick
And I do feel there is value in like
Stopping you from doubling down on aoes

[thorny berry]

I mean, I think double aoes sounds like a cool niche mechanically- off the top of my head, I don't think you can exactly spam them in any case.

Like to distill my take as a whole: it's a weird amount of mechanical complexity whose only function seems to be a nerf to specific corner cases for a class that... doesn't really need one.

I say this mostly having seen newer players struggle with it

[turbid dagger]

I think the main reason for it is like
Outside of quickened, the pf2e devs wanna stick tightly to the 3 action paradigm
And this lets you like, stick to that while still letting both summoner and eidolon do stuff each turn

[silver geyser]

I'd rather they not break the 3 action thing, yeah.

[turbid dagger]

(And I know I'm an outlier but I started with summoner and had no issues 😛)

(Mario my precious baby boy)

[craggy thunder]

I think if my character dies in this game I’m gonna play my Azlanti Skeleton Magus

But since it’s a dual-class game dual-classed with Wizard

True Azlanti Swordmage time

Also I'm trying to figure out what to name this archetypal nimble straight sword

[silver geyser]

Throngler

[craggy thunder]

lol

[frank crystal]

You want a name for a weapon type or a specific weapon?

[craggy thunder]

More archetypal

Trying to fluff it as a dueling sword becoming more popular in the Inner Sea region like in Taldor and Jalmeray for dueling etc

having its roots in Tian Xia to call back to the inspiration being a jian sword

[frank crystal]

Ah alright

Maybe something like “Arming Saber” or something?

[craggy thunder]

eeeehhh

It's not a saber

[frank crystal]

Fair

[craggy thunder]

I have had a fun idea for the name

something associated with traveling

since this is meant to be a sort of 'archetype' of sword spreading about the Inner Sea

[frank crystal]

Oh what’s that?

[craggy thunder]

Wayfaring Blade

[frank crystal]

Oh that’s cool

[solar jacinth]

In regards to using Foundry VT, isn't the majority of PF modules out there free?

[barren cipher]

system modules? absolutely

[solar jacinth]

Oh awesome!

[turbid dagger]

I think the ones for APs come with the AP they represent

[paper juniper]

They have archetypes tho you have to do em manually

[craggy thunder]

How does the capacity trait like

work?

[solar tendon]

reload one handed but only so many times

effectively

[craggy thunder]

But it doesn't count as a reload action

[solar tendon]

it does

[craggy thunder]

So it doesn't synergize with

Oh

[solar tendon]

it's been clarified

[craggy thunder]

Well shit

[solar tendon]

it's basically like

single action revolver

[frank crystal]

Effectively it’s a way to get 2 guns in your hand

And still be able to reload

[turbid dagger]

This also means capacity on two handed guns basically does nothing, which is funny
Bolt action rifle with the same statblock as an arquebus

[frank crystal]

I already run my games like that tbh

I don’t flavor them as flintlocks

[craggy thunder]

I think that's reasonable given repeater technology exists for both firearms and crossbows

Tho I would suggest making it more like those weird external magazine devices

[solar tendon]

there's a specific magic item, the Liar's Gun which does something interesting with capacity though. it has the ability to do an aoe metastrike by using multiple ammo

which means you can do stuff like combine running reload and gunslinger reloads

[frank crystal]

That’s neat

[solar tendon]

without shooting between each reload and still get value

unfortunately the damage die is baddd

[frank crystal]

What is it?

[solar tendon]

d4 I think. it's a pepperbox

[frank crystal]

Oh damn

[solar storm]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/18benjk/controlling_verticality_uncompetitive_feats_and/

New crossover episode just dropped

[clever cobalt]

It's a good essay as well

[barren cipher]

i don't think 'double slice is good actually' is quite the slam dunk they think it is

[surreal basin]

As a sidenote

Recently made a character who the cleric archetype who actively disliked gods

Which is funny

[solar storm]

Yeah I'm not sure how much I agree but its 2 things I like crossing over

[barren cipher]

"gorum sucks, I'm gonna beat up these gorum worshippers and his clerics"

"GORUM APPROVES, YOU ARE THE NEW CHOSEN OF GORUM!"

"well fuck."

yeah i get the problem and i think lancer deals with it in a better way, it's a good fundamental idea

[trail nova]

I think there’s maybe an interesting catagory of “build enabling” - those things that either flat out let you do something, or are enough of a buff to make it competitive

[barren cipher]

they should have just picked one of the other feats they mentioned, like opportune backstab or something

opportune backstab doesn't enable anything, doesn't have much in the way of competition in its space

it's just massive quantities of damage for you to either take or leave on the table like a chump

[trail nova]

Yeah, double slice is almost more “build enabling” for dual-weilders.

[clever cobalt]

Regardless about specific examples I agree with the core points the post makes

[trail nova]

The choice isn’t 2 weapons with or without double slice, it’s 2 weapons or a 2 hander or sword and board, ect.

[thorny berry]

tbh the thing that's more of a bugbear for me that I've generally seen pretty poorly received when I bring it up on the reddit is that pf2 doesn't really attempt at all to balance out of combat utility

[trail nova]

Yeah, that’s definitely a thing

[thorny berry]

like I think barb and champ are cool but uh on that front they have kinda Nothing

compared to, y'know, any caster

the skill monkey classes

a swash that at least has a sidecar of CHA

thaum

etcetera

[barren cipher]

i don't think barb utility is all that bad actually

you're one up on the fighter usually

(i don't wanna talk about thaum)

[thorny berry]

I was going to mention fighter but I find people are even more hostile to the idea that fighter underperforms in any fashion whatsoever lol

[clever cobalt]

Fighter is often seen as OP if anything yeah

[unborn rain]

It's more saying "Double slice is noticably more powerful than the other feats of its level"

[barren cipher]

but double slice fighter isn't necessarily more powerful than, like, sword and shield fighter, free hand fighter, whatever

all of those are useful and good fighters

[clever cobalt]

Regardless I think you guys are getting caught up in the details

Even if double slice isn't the best example

The core point stands

[solar tendon]

but that isn't at all why they brought up double slice?

it's just that vertical progression exists. at all

[thorny berry]

I also want to get ahead of a common point I see in response to this which is that 'well it's fine for fighter to be better at combat and investigator to be better at out of combat'

with the fact that different campaigns vary wildly in how they value out-of-combat utility and it therefore either places the onus on the dm to run their adventure in an exact specific way or rebalance on the fly

(see also: how often your group gets to rest vs daily resource classes)

[surreal basin]

tbh it was more like
"gods suck and abuse their power"
crazy bitch tries to eat the heart of a god and become a tyrant deity
"okay she sucks more, we can team up a little"

also also

not to interrupt but I wanna prod yall for some ideas on an upcoming thing for my game

[frank crystal]

War gods be like that

You can’t really fight them with war because they want that too

[frank crystal]

I love talking give ‘em to me

[thorny berry]

prod away at this point I've just reverted to playing the hits

if the adventuring day has one million haters I am one of them, if the adventuring day has one hater it's me etcetera

[surreal basin]

so my players just won a tournament hosted by a demi-god

and as a reward he brought them to his heaven villa

now, they want something he has in his vault

[thorny berry]

they go into the bathroom and he has four seashells

[surreal basin]

but until then, I kinda wanna do a little bit of stuff in heaven

[craggy thunder]

wait there's a new general feat that just

gives you an animal

XD

That's amazing

[frank crystal]

What’s your heaven like?

[warped orbit]

yeah it lets anyone get a weak familiar

if you just want a little pet

[surreal basin]

big divine mountain range, the seat of all creation - basically the capital city of all creation

they're basically on a tiny mountain on the outskirts

given to the favored child of the god of war

[craggy thunder]

very good

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[surreal basin]

oooo
maybe

so the villains are a faction of rogue angels - maybe they try to assassinate the demigod and the players get caught up in the attempt?

yeah okay i figured it out myself lol

[frank crystal]

What’re doing?

[surreal basin]

So the enemy angel faction is going to try to assassinate this guy to take him out of the equation, since he’s worryingly strong and they think he might try to stop them

With the players help, he’ll only be wounded

[frank crystal]

Oooo, are they just gonna send assassins or something else?

[surreal basin]

I’m thinking assassin angels/fallen angels

Not sure what else, I’m open to suggestions

[frank crystal]

Hmm, could maybe do something like a small incursion into heaven

From what it sounds like heaven is accessible besides just dying

[surreal basin]

For context, this faction is basically the ultimate Utilitarians

Who have realized there’s no way within the “rules” to fix this awful interplanar sigil esque city of suffering

So they’ve resolved to just wipe it off the map

[frank crystal]

Oh damn

[surreal basin]

They’re also some of the first angels to break the bonds of alignment

Their reasoning is that even though what they’re about to do is awful and abhorrent, ultimately it will cause less suffering than allowing the city to exist

[craggy thunder]

You can use twin takedown with a sword and a shield boss, right?

[surreal basin]

….

Huh yeah

I guess you can

[frank crystal]

Yup

[craggy thunder]

Fucking pogging

sword & board flurry ranger be like

[frank crystal]

Also I see. So then they wanna take out this demigod because he may take issue with an entire city being wiped out

[surreal basin]

Yeah

They’re trying to weaken the cities defenses

Because they’re about to hit it with a thermonuclear anti-god spear

[frank crystal]

But I then have a question: if he’s strong enough that he’s a genuine threat to their plans, what assassins could reasonably kill him?

[surreal basin]

A bunch of angels launching a surprise attack where he thinks he’s safest

[frank crystal]

Ah ok so it’s an ambush kinda deal

[surreal basin]

Yeah

They’re at his Villa in heaven

And can get in undetected because they’re

Still ostensibly allowed to be there

No one knows they’re fucked up yet

[unborn rain]

how does he treat his staff? If they're sentient and not like magic unseen servants or whatever?

[surreal basin]

Very well actually

Despite being the son of the god of war and hedonism, and the leader of a guild house, he’s a pretty cool dude

He’s just also a bloodthirsty warlord

[unborn rain]

A classic, Fun loving likable warlord

[surreal basin]

Yeah

He’s of a race built by said god who were intended to basically like

[frank crystal]

Also like, his villa is just one peak of many right? Maybe they could do something like lock it down

[surreal basin]

Live good and fight well

[frank crystal]

If they’re angels it’d be reasonably they’d also be the ones to tell him he needs to stay put for some reason

[surreal basin]

Fair yeah

[frank crystal]

Doesn’t even need to be something worrying

Just something that means he can’t leave for a bit

[surreal basin]

I’m thinking the angels might also have a weapon from the old war to kill him with

Same as the thing they’re gonna use to annihilate the city

Even with the players help he’s still gonna get wounded pretty bad

[frank crystal]

Makes sense

[surreal basin]

They’re also planning on pinning it on the Devils I think

Although obviously that won’t work

Because people survive

[frank crystal]

Yah unless the party TPKs it’d probably be hard for them not to know it’s devils

[surreal basin]

Although heaven’s investigation won’t be able to figure out the truth in time since it’s both like

A massive, unearthly slow bureaucracy

And also celestials have never fallen on this scale before

[frank crystal]

So if this is how they find out it’d be a massive shock then

Like

Ripples through heaven kinda shock

[surreal basin]

Yeah for sure

But again they won’t believe it until it actually happens

[frank crystal]

Makes sense

[surreal basin]

Which will lead to the in setting abolishment of alignment

[unborn rain]

Old man who still defines himself as LG and his grand kids are like "You just have anethema and edicts which support the common good and ethics code based morality"

[surreal basin]

This will also lead to the divine court case where devils will be reassigned from fiends

Or rather

They’ll be considered tentatively allies of heaven

With this corrupted arch-angel being used as proof of more existential threats that Heaven are blind to in their idealism and Hell can’t deal with or detect while fucked up and sealed away

[surreal basin]

So

Do y’all think there’s a way to have summons not suck?

Like a mechanical change that can be made?

My group has started having just, all summons have the elite template

Which has made them USABLE if you spend your highest slots on it

[unborn rain]

I think summons might have to be like, changed to not being you summon an actual npc

but you summon a like, Wildshape style basic creature block balanced specifically for being a summon

[surreal basin]

Yeah that’s what I was thinking

I saw people say they’re worried good summons would overshadow martials but like

Imo as long as they aren’t a HIGHER level than a player stats wise

That is very rare

It could happen in 1e but that’s because

Well

Look at 1e

[unborn rain]

Everything overshadows everything in 1e

if you bring up any given build someone will appear from behind and be like "Actually this builds stronger"

[solar tendon]

summons are too many things at once so they're bad at all of them

so make them do less things

[unborn rain]

Summons are currently still useful though, like as HP blocker or thing to summon with spells in them

[solar tendon]

or something like distant grasps' dancing blade where it can't do multiple things at the same time

[surreal basin]

Imo like

[surreal basin]

HP blocker doesn’t work if they can’t threaten the enemy in my view

Like if a guy needs to roll an 18 to hit me I’m not gonna waste my time attacking him

[solar tendon]

stuff like ostentatious arrival or the new wizard feat that mean they have a bit more immediate value kinda helps

but also if you can just slap on a minor aoe for basically no cost and it's balanced then summons clearly aren't balanced

[surreal basin]

I’m like

[solar tendon]

even in paizo's opinion I mean

[surreal basin]

Definitely of the opinion that summons should be better

Just statistically

Easiest fix, you can summoner higher level creatures, probably by 1 or 2 depending on level

The elite fix works

I also think some Conjuration spells that use the flavor of summoning stuff to do effects, like incarnates, would be nice

[trail nova]

Summons probably shouldn’t be pulling from the bestiary yeah. It’s really weird that they do

[unborn rain]

How does the elite fix change their average damage?

Like compared to a damaging spell of the level?

[surreal basin]

Oh I haven’t like

Done the math

But imo they probably shouldn’t do more average damage than a spell of equiavlent level, at least per turn

Because they provide other benefits

But they need to be able to hit lmao

Which even the highest level summons struggle with when you get them

[solar tendon]

a summon which works like an animal companion support benefit would be neat

like

[silver geyser]

Summons are still quite usable.

[warped orbit]

I do think this is a needed change

[solar tendon]

a buff to things that hit stuff next to them

[silver geyser]

Like, even in 1e, the biggest use of them was as a mine sweeper.

[warped orbit]

summons being actual NPCs is just really awkward

making them templates would help adjust the power too

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[surreal basin]

That’s fair but I mean purely in combat

[silver geyser]

Like, you send them into flanking, to eat AoO's, to trigger traps

[surreal basin]

They have utility for sure

But like, unless they can be even remotely a threat

Any intelligent foe is gonna ignore them

“Hey that guy is struggling to hit me, this Paladin is very much not”

[silver geyser]

The flanking thing is actually really big at times.

[warped orbit]

ehh, if flanking is the biggest contribution, then you are basically sustaining a spell that makes an enemy flat footed to one ally potentially

[silver geyser]

There's also the body-blocking they're capable of.

[warped orbit]

its also just weird that summons are at their best at level 1, and then get worse over time

[unborn rain]

tbf, AC does have a like difference of 6 between the lowest and highest. And if you've got an Extreme Attack Bonus creature vs a medium AC creature only a couple level highers it should be able to hit decently well

[surreal basin]

The scaling is strange yeah

[warped orbit]

yeah but at most levels, summons will be -4 PL from the caster

[frank crystal]

Just thought of a rogue build I really wanna run. Ruffian rogue dual wielding a club+brass knuckles

Keep the ability to grapple and push while using dual weapon fighting feats

[warped orbit]

so for them to have even decent odds to actually hit, the enemy they are attacking would need to be PL+0 as well

[silver geyser]

To be perfectly frank, this was a problem most 1e summons had too.

Unless you tapped into the likes of Lantern Archon Beam Spam

Untyped damage on four different touch attacks just meant You Hit, and You Damage no matter what.

[surreal basin]

Touch attacks my beloved

(I mailed gunslinger)

(Touch attacks are bad game design )

[unborn rain]

Touch attacks are bad but they're fun

like sugary drinks

[frank crystal]

Sneak attack isn’t once per turn right?

I’m not reading this wrong?

[clever cobalt]

I don't believe so

[warped orbit]

it's not limited, yeah

just need to hit while they're Off Guard

[clever cobalt]

I can't wait until they add SROs in Starfinder 2e so I can truly play a robot in PF2e

[frank crystal]

Ok sick

[clever cobalt]

(Yes I'm aware Automatons exist bear with me)

[frank crystal]

Then yah probably grabbing the tekko cagi+some good one handed weapon

Even if I flavor it as brass knuckles

[thorny berry]

incarnate spells at every rank, imo

the ones that do exist are cool as hell

https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=388

[thorny berry]

my touch attack (bombs) alchemist's whole thing is basically making people flat footed and attacking None AC

let's not go back to 1e, 'tis a silly place

[frank crystal]

I’m gonna use a hatchet for my other weapon

It seems like the best agile weapon I can grab

The thrown might be actually useful

Also huh I never really realized, the brawling weapon’s actually do have a niche about a dual weapon build that wants to use all the free hand actions

[turbid dagger]

Yeah Gauntlet+Axe that uses dueling parry/maneuveurs/double slice is def a thing

[frank crystal]

I mean yah but I’ve never really connected to the dots until now

Rogue doenst really have much stuff for dual weapons though right?

I’d need to pick that up from archetypes?

[barren cipher]

there's a little

but the dual weapon warrior feats aren't great on rogue generally

[frank crystal]

Why not?

[barren cipher]

you only apply precision damage once

[frank crystal]

Oh you can’t do multiple sneak attacks with double slice?

[barren cipher]

twin takedown is ok i guess

yeah

otherwise it'd be the only game in town

[frank crystal]

Ah damn

That kinda sucks

[solar tendon]

twin takedown rogue is neat :)

[frank crystal]

I mean fair

[barren cipher]

yeah ranger multiclass is pretty good i'd say

[frank crystal]

Yah twin takedown does have the benefit of only needing 1 action still

[barren cipher]

and you can often hunt prey in advance or when you can't otherwise do much

[solar tendon]

there are some though like rebounding toss or swipe

if you can make two people off guard

[trail nova]

Holy shit double slice is good.

[barren cipher]

double slice is great

[frank crystal]

It’s amazing

[solar tendon]

double shot too

on single target

but again ranged off guard

knockdown technically with harder they fall if you manage to crit the trip hehe

[craggy thunder]

Is there a benefit to a character being off-guard if you aren't a Rogue?

[solar tendon]

I mean

-2 to ac

[craggy thunder]

Tru

[solar tendon]

uh but also there's the backstabber trait on some weapons

notably the new martial crossbow

which gives +1 damage against off guard enemies

+2 when you get to 3 damage dice off the top of my head

ah not greater striking, +3 potency

there's also laughing shadow magus

[craggy thunder]

tru

I ask cuz I'm buildcrafting

nature's edge from Ranger which makes enemies off-guard to you if they're in difficult terrain

plus rupture stomp from Stalwart Defender creating difficult terrain around you

[solar tendon]

assassin archetype gives access to d6 sneak attack and a buff to backstabber

but in general the ac penalty is the main thing and pretty potent

[turbid dagger]

Oh, neat, ranger gets that
Lizardfolk get it as an ancestry feat also, always funny with Champion or Inventor
Who both get variations of 'every space around you is diff terrain for your enemies'

[craggy thunder]

wait they do

When?

Cuz this is for a dual class character in case my first one bites it

[turbid dagger]

Lizardfolk get Terrain Advantage at 9
Champion gets Divine Wall as a feat at 12
Inventors get Automated Impediments as a revolutionary modification at 15
Inventor is a bit whatever if you aren't a weirdo like me but Lizardfolk Champion with terrain advantage and divine wall actually seems hype for an 11-20

[craggy thunder]

oh god damn

okay so I think that's how I'm going to build this character lmao

'everything around me is difficult terrain'

'everyone is easier for me to hit if they're in difficult terrain'

'I am a Flurry Ranger as well as a Champion'

'Fucking Die'

Traveling half-dwarf in stoneplate goes fuckin brrrrrrt

In all seriousness Champ/Ranger also seems really good even if you just do stuff like agile shield grip and quick draw

and you can do twin takedown with shield grip

[turbid dagger]

Oh man, agile shield grip flurry ranger champion
Thats actually genius

[craggy thunder]

The most aggressive tank you have ever seen

[turbid dagger]

Warden Spells and Devotion Spells means you can cap out your focus pool pretty easily also

[craggy thunder]

also naturally at least half-dwarf

"Is a shield a piece of armor?"

"NO, IT'S A DEFENSIVE WEAPON."

"PUNCH SOMEONE IN THE FUCKING FACE WITH IT."

[trail nova]

Could also do Lizardfolk Champion/Rogue

[craggy thunder]

You could but this build in specific is also taking stalwart defender

which requires you to be a Dwarf or 'Dwarf trained'

And also Rogue is taken for this group lol

[trail nova]

Fair

[silver geyser]

I like Inventor. It's got some juice.

[craggy thunder]

Ruffian Rogue Stalwart Defender actually sounds fucking incredible though

Just take Dwarven Weapon Familiarity for the Long Hammer to be Simple

[solar tendon]

that only make it simple for proficiency

doesn't work for ruffian and the like

[craggy thunder]

F

[rustic cape]

Ruffian is weirdly limited

Too much so, imo

[solar storm]

It's a shame I really like Ruffian conceptually

[turbid dagger]

I kind of get it because like
Its perilously close to just being 'vanilla martial what gets sneak attack'
And the simple weapon thing is trying to make it more of a 'thug that uses dirty fighting to come out on top' but all it really results in is people running around with longspears which does not exactly fit the flavor either

[solar storm]

Yeah its real hard to balance

Honestly

I like it

I used it for a nasty soldier PC

[solar tendon]

I think longspears probably fit the vibe more than you'd think

I guess?

uh historically I mean

or in more grungy fantasy

but yeah I think rogue and ruffian was kinda the last interesting thing that pathfinder did with simple/martial/advanced and the remaster has given up on it

to an extent

which is fine but it makes the lingering elements of it kinda annoying

[warped orbit]

Ruffian can sneak with martial now, but only d6 or lower

[trail nova]

I want my 1e Greatsword sneak attack builds.

God, I can't believe 2e spellstrike doesn't have some sort of AoO protection. Just because not everyone gets it doesn't mean that it's not horrible to deal with when your class's core melee range mechanic provokes.

[thorny berry]

it's incredibly silly

[turbid dagger]

Thaum also feels this
VERY fun fact: Amulet's Abeyance has manipulate
Get hit by the dude you specifically selected to have great defenses against? No worries, you have a bespoke reaction you can use too
Uh
Get hit again

[thorny berry]

oh my god I never caught that

is 🔔 also manipulate

update: yep

as is chalice

brutal

...now I'm kinda scrambling for what the most accessible 'turn off reactions' button is for them

[turbid dagger]

Me neither
It lost me the big tournament the PF2e discord was doing 😭
(I was gonna lose that anyway most of the folks were way better at charop but god it really felt I could have gone further without that)
(It SUUUUUCKED)

I think I had an answer to the reaction thing (which I was not able to implement due to my char being fixed) once I realized that but I cannot recall what

[frank crystal]

I’m gonna be honest, I home rule it as not triggering AOO

I have a magus in a game I run and while she uses a reach weapon

It would still feel extremely shitty to her if all my AOO monsters triggered when she used her core class action

[turbid dagger]

I guess it encourages sparkling targe a bit I guess
Get that shield up before you take the shot
But yeah it always feels a bit Spooky when you know theres a chance that an enemy can get a whole extra no map hit just for you existing

[frank crystal]

Yah, it especially feels weird because like, magus isn’t just normally casting

The spell is imbued into their weapon

I always say it flavor wise as you attacking normally, just with the spell happening as you strike

So then it just feels like they get AOOs for no reason

[trail nova]

Really encourages the bow hybrid study

[turbid dagger]

Per the class rules text itself there are visible components to your spells as a magus
IIRC it says you trace patterns with your weapon?
So instead of just 'swing, sword is now on fire', its 'raise your sword to the sky, do a little flourish that beckons forth sparks, then swing with the flames you conjure up'
And the fancy bit is the chance for the fighter to punch you in the mouth

[silver geyser]

What gets in my craw is Inventor being so weak to AoO

[craggy thunder]

Man my character's fashion is gonna be so cursed

[true delta]

When I ran a first session of Gatewalkers last Saturday, I had a PC have a nightmare about their youth where everything went up in flames. They enjoyed it and pushed their parents into the flames. I was not expecting that, but probably should have.

[surreal basin]

Man I’d love for there to be more uhhh

Celestial enemies

I guess War might offer that

[turbid dagger]

Lost Omens Divine Mysteries has also been discussed

[surreal basin]

O?

I’ve not heard of this

Or is this the book where they’re just reprinting the gods

[turbid dagger]

Its the one with the god remaster and Arazni becoming a core god yeah

[silver geyser]

Here's to hoping they ditch Lamashtu

Also rabble rabble hate the edict change rabble rabble

[surreal basin]

…. Lamashtu’s educt change or something about edicts in general

[silver geyser]

Lamashtu's specifically.

It's inherently more positive, which is awful for someone as vile as Lamashtu, and hysterically more limiting.

[clever cobalt]

Do you think an Inventor/Gunslinger Dual Class would be good at all?

[craggy thunder]

I would imagine so

If you did the obvious thing and made your innovation your, well

gun

[clever cobalt]

yep

[craggy thunder]

Then yeah it's just

more effects on top of your main weapon

the scope would be nice on a sniper I bet

[turbid dagger]

You'd be set up for some completely insane Megaton Strike crits, if nothin else

[thorny berry]

yeah any martial/martial that can benefit from both bonuses on the same attack is gonna be at baseline Very Good

[craggy thunder]

Like flurry ranger with Monk

or fighter with

any other martial

[warped orbit]

yeah lol

getting Fighter accuracy and feats on anyone else is huge

[craggy thunder]

Seriously I was this close to doing monk/ranger for my monk duelist

[warped orbit]

Fighter/Ranger can do some pretty gross stuff with Flurry

[craggy thunder]

The only thing that dissuaded me was Ranger having no weapon and free hand feats

[frank crystal]

So I think I’ve finished Tyrfing

My swordsman boss for my level 20 one shot

He has, including his reactions, 11 actions, 3 strikes, and 2 passives

Heres his sheet

Also, the separation of endless blue strike requires 2 actions

There’s just no way to show that in foundry

[clever cobalt]

How so?

[turbid dagger]

Megaton Strike is an inventor feat which is basically Power Attack, but you can use it with ranged weapons, not just melee
It gives you additional damage dice
Slingers have fighter accuracy with guns, and guns get fatal
Which upgrade your damage dice on crit to the fatal value
So, if you gun crit with megaton strike
All your extra dice get upraded to the fatal value

[clever cobalt]

O h

[silver geyser]

THUNK

You can also give Inventor Weapons Deadly as well eventually.

[turbid dagger]

Yes, weapon inventor can get like, a fatal d12 deadly d10 arquebus or something
Which is just ridiculous

[silver geyser]

I think you mean fun

Unfortunately it is limited to Simple or Martial weapons

So you can't improve upon the Barricade Buster.

[frank crystal]

Also, how does this look for a level 20 one shot?

With 4-5 players?

As this immediately follows a phase 1 of a weaker monster

[turbid dagger]

This has always been the most ridiculously wack thing about the class for me
Like
Bro what
What do you mean the weird bizarro weapon class can't fuck up the fucked up advanced weapons

[solar tendon]

honestly its like

[turbid dagger]

Clarify whether Break Mortal And Divine works on both misses and hits or just hits, and I think you are good

[solar tendon]

feels like if they wanted just one baseline before the inventor stuff is added then deadly simplicity should be automatically applied

not take up your initial

[frank crystal]

Its meant to be only hits

[turbid dagger]

Figured as much! I know nethys statblocks usually bolt on hit things like that onto the strike itself as reminders (the format is usually like 'Cut, 6d8+15 slashing plus Break Mortal And Divine', or Ball Python's 'Jaws, 1d8+3 piercing plus Grab), but not sure if Foundry does that formatting

But yeah that seems fine

[frank crystal]

thanks

[silver geyser]

Oooooh, found another fun thing for a weapon Inventor.

Scatter scales off of weapon damage dice

[solar tendon]

anything that scales of damage dice is only affected by striking runes unfortunately

[silver geyser]

Ah, shoot.

[turbid dagger]

https://www.humblebundle.com/books/pathfinder-second-edition-legacy-bundle-paizo-books

GIANT HUMBLEBUNDLE BUNDLE ALERT

464$ value of books for 30$

Including the entirety of Age Of Ashes

And the beginner box!
And Fall Of Plaguestone!
As well as a few other oneshots and some pre-remaster rulebooks

[silver geyser]

Excellent

[turbid dagger]

If I'm being honest
Selling the OG Player book, APG, and GMG in a bundle now is like
A scam
But! The rest of the stuff is cool and good and worth it

[surreal basin]

Yknow

I think I’m finally happy with Warpriest

The master prof comes real late, but at least at level 20 they have something that cloistered doesn’t

[solar tendon]

the new feats are really neat

divine rebuttal feels like it really gives warpriest a niche

[surreal basin]

Sidenote

I thiiiink that

Season of Ghosts, at least the first book

Is like, what people told me strength of thousands would be

IE a great campaign with a lot of roleplay opportunities and a sense of community

And they do a good job of now falling into the same pitfall as SoT UE making you feel like just a weird fantasy cop

[clever cobalt]

Yay?

[rustic cape]

I’m guessing “now” is a typo and you meant to say “not”?

[surreal basin]

oh

yeah

didn't even notice i fucked that up

[rustic cape]

Just wanted to clarify

[surreal basin]

sorry yeah they DON'T make you feel like weird cops

which was an issue in SOT

[unborn rain]

When I played SoT I never felt like a cop, I felt more like the mystery gang.

And I assume I played the 'copiest' part of it. As I think after book 2 we would've gone out of Nantabu

Not that I'll ever get to know, rip my SoT game

[rustic cape]

Ruh roh

[turbid dagger]

We've been solving problems but not really as part of any organized effort
Much to our chagrin at times
It's become a running joke in our game that the tempest sun mages are only dubiously real

[surreal basin]

BOOK 2 is the coppiest part yeah

i just don't really feel like it delivers on the student part of the campaign v well

imo

[solar tendon]

I think uh

the magaambya is not based on modern schooling haha

as an established fact from before sot n stuff

and I think reading that before I really read sot. and just having a background in criticising norms in education

means I got a very different read than a lot of people

and why I get a bit pressed when people describe it as like. hogwarts

but its also an issue with the nature of ap writing in general

[silver geyser]

The Magaambya focuses on the actually important part of magic

Which is in fact not learning magic.

It's learning when to not use magic and how to use magic right

And it's very, very much more caring about it students than most magical schools on Golarion.

Korvosa's Academae, for example.

Which has a standing policy of "If you fail graduation, we turn you over to the necromancers"

[solar tendon]

yeah there's like a billion authoritarian school environments

sot is cool cause you get to go to the school where you just do shit

where one of your professors takes a sabbatical to go fight in a tournament

[unborn rain]

Most magic schools in Pathfinder are just vague places Wizards get diplomas out of rather than actual places

[silver geyser]

Except for the ones we get details on, like the Academae and Magaambya

And the two approaches are fascinating to take a look at side by side.

[unborn rain]

There's also the one in Alkenstar which is essentially Wizard Prison

[silver geyser]

The Academae works incredibly hard to foster a sense of elitism in its students. You're not supposed to socialize with common folk anymore, you get all your supplies from preselected stores, you have basically no reason to leave campus ever.

[turbid dagger]

That's all well and good but I do kind of agree with Emily's point that the story has yet to really make clear what learning at the magaambya IS like
The closest we've gotten to an in plot lesson is the Perquisite challenges
We kind of abstract study rolls as 'mario wrote a treatise on infernal military tactics, +1 school rank'

[silver geyser]

This also ties into that Pathfinder is not a game that wants you to go in depth for classes.

[solar tendon]

yeah

[silver geyser]

Expecting it to do that is... Unrealistic.

Like, even Harry Potter just stops being about classes after a certain point.

They only come up if they're plot relevant.

Otherwise, they take a backseat to the story.

[turbid dagger]

I don't expect it to be all sitting in lecture halls listening to professors monologue but I see how Emily can feel like not a lot of school stuff actually happens

And how that might be sad if you started running or playing SOT because you were like yooo wizard school

[silver geyser]

Making classes that matter while also fitting in what the game is actually for would be too much work (and importantly, pagecount) for an AP.

That's just going to have to rely on the individual table.

[turbid dagger]

Addendum: we also had a debate on the metaphysical concept of fate with the anandi students, that was pretty magic school

My summoner asserted that fate doesn't exist since Aroden is dead, while his eidolon asserted that the inevitable consequences of the circumstances one is born into is it's own kind of predestination

[unborn rain]

Does the pathfinder setting have an understanding of Chaos theory?

[barren cipher]

they either have a profound understanding of it to the extent that it's baked into fundamental magical theory, or they don't care about it at all because you have gods and functioning divination magic so modelling chaotic systems is probably not really worth the effort

[clever cobalt]

They had a functioning divination magic system

Things kinda went pear shaped since Aroden died

[turbid dagger]

Well it's still semi functioning

[barren cipher]

yeah you can still do divination, just not prophecy

[clever cobalt]

I'm mostly regarding prophecy magic but yeah, fair

I do like Alkenstar for this reason

cause it also stands as an example of like, what happens when magic isn't present in a magic heavy setting

[solar tendon]

im looking forward to playing ooa

alkenstar and dongun hold are just neat

[clever cobalt]

ye

I also love Gnolls >_>

who are prevelant in the Mana Wastes

though iirc Alkenstar doesn't like them?

[turbid dagger]

They don't like just about anything that comes out of the wastes because mutants live there and, iirc, prejudiced hysteria has led folks to just assume over generations that its contagious
Been a while since I read that bit of Impossible Lands

[clever cobalt]

yeah\

I mean I sorta get it

but Alkenstar also reminds me of like, british/american racism and careless capitalism

which is probably intentional, admittedly

especially cause they outright bring up stuff like "a lot of the seemingly eglitarian stuff exists just to give the rich a veneer of respectability and make sure the poor populace stays distracted" and whatnot

[warped orbit]

today on my Investigator
roll Stratagem, 19 against a big enemy we're fighting, but 3 off from a crit
use Gloves of Storing to retrieve a scroll of Synesthesia and use it
they succeed, still get Clumsy 3 for a round
fire my pistol now that its a crit
72 damage off a regular attack 😌

[turbid dagger]

Investigator Gaming
The pre-dice knowledge actually coming in useful, very cool

[unborn rain]

Alkenstar is the only place in the entire setting with weird levels of fantasy racism, where they really hate mutants but view anything from Assimar to Orcs are mutants.

Which is really weird because everywhere else in the game is like "everyone knows what an Assimar is and they think they're lit"

[eager mountain]

funny thing about that

mutant guides into t he manawastes have become a commadity lately ( after the results of outlaws ) , to the point a micronation of mutants in the manawastes is forming

[craggy thunder]

One of our players wants to change his ancestry when the game's technically already started

and it'll have to involve changes to two other characters' backstories

well at least one

And I just

bro you made the character already

[barren cipher]

stab them to death

cast reincarnate ritual

repeat until desired ancestry is achieved

[craggy thunder]

man this guy is just giving me bad vibes

[frank crystal]

Oh no

[craggy thunder]

Dude is trying to justify another player changing their backstory so he can switch to another ancestry

For context he was an azarketi whose community saved the other character and gave them the ability to breathe underwater

Cuz that character was in a shipwreck my character's family was also on

So if he switches to not an Azarketi

Who tf saved the other character?

Like to be clear this was all already agreed upon

So this is just real bad vibes

[frank crystal]

yah thats, weird

especially since Im assuming this is like, session 1?

Or at least after session 0?

[craggy thunder]

There was like

session 0.5

We have started roleplaying as our characters

[frank crystal]

oh yah thats super weird then

[turbid dagger]

Just to try the simplest options first- have you already talked to them about why it would be an issue to allow this?

[craggy thunder]

The gm and the player whose backstory would be affected sort of have

[turbid dagger]

Probably would not hurt to make your own feelings on the matter clear too
So they understand that no one in the group's really on board with this
Sometimes players are bad but more often I feel they're usually just thick headed and don't realize they're harshing the vibe
Now obv I haven't seen this group in person but

[true delta]

I have an odd question: Are these AP covers on Amazon correct? Because they don't look like the PDF covers at all, and quite a bit less pretty.

These are the Gatewalkers books, FYI.

And supposedly the covers of the print versions.

The PDF covers for comparison.

[clever cobalt]

That does not look right

Who's selling them?

[true delta]

Yeah, it doesn't. Very odd.

[clever cobalt]

Is Amazon selling them or a third party?

[true delta]

Oh, it's third parties

Thanks

[clever cobalt]

There you go

[true delta]

Yeah, I hadn't caught that.

[clever cobalt]

Probably meant to scam you tbh

Wouldn't be surprised if they were made before the actual books came out and they never bothered to change the images

[true delta]

Ah, lol

[frank crystal]

hey what do yall think are good NPCs to represent a rogue, ranger and magus?

They can be high or low level, I can always bump up their stats

[turbid dagger]

There are quite a few bestiary entries with hunt prey or sneak attack, but none with Spellstrike I can see
You can take a page out of the storm and fire giants' books and give them metastrikes with extra elemental damage but

[frank crystal]

Hmm alright. And yah I could probably just make a new strike that includes elemental damage for the magus

[turbid dagger]

The actual level 7 Hunter NPC has hunt prey with precision edge, for example

[frank crystal]

And call it spellstrike

[frank crystal]

Ah sick

What about sneak attack NPCs?

[warped orbit]

There is one NPC from an AP that I think had something Spellstrike like

But honestly just take a different base NPC and give it Spellstrike

[turbid dagger]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Creatures.aspx?q="sneak+attack"&type=eqs&sort=name-asc&display=table&columns=creature_family+source+rarity+size+alignment+trait+level+hp+ac+fortitude+reflex+will+perception+sense+speed

To search another class feature, put something other than sneak attack in the quotes in the search bar

[frank crystal]

Oh I didn’t know I could do that

[turbid dagger]

Just went through with "sneak attack", "hunt prey", and "spellstrike" and all came up with multiple hits, so have fun

[frank crystal]

Thanks dude

[turbid dagger]

🫡

[unborn rain]

lots of enemies get sneak attack

[turbid dagger]

There were more magus-alikes than I was expecting

[surreal basin]

Yeah there’s some fellas with spellstrike

Including a literal magus from Ruby Phoenix

[turbid dagger]

I was surprised to see two NPCs who are explicitly Twisting Tree Maguses
In two seperate APs even

[unborn rain]

There's also a undead magus who gets 3 spell slots of a level higher than they'd usually be able to cast

which looks terrifying to fight

[turbid dagger]

The bloodshroud dude, right
They looked terrifying to fight on level yeah
Fucking
Polar Ray and heightened Disintegrate on a level 13 dude

[frank crystal]

That’s fucked up

I know vampires can also cast spells at a higher level then normal

But normally it’s like, mind manipulation spells

Not disintegrate

[unborn rain]

Disintegrate is at least on level

They get 3 slots for Polar Ray

[frank crystal]

THATS 8TH LEVEL?

HOLY SHIT

[unborn rain]

yep 10d8 and Drain

And that's used in conjection with a spellstrike

[frank crystal]

[barren cipher]

polar ray is pretty mean

[unborn rain]

It's also got fly speed, it's only low thing is Fort save as far as I can tell?

[warped orbit]

the Drain is what makes Polar Ray really dangerous

[upbeat ridge]

No. Don’t do this random person on the internet DONT DO IT https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/NXsbDKFhhM

[barren cipher]

rage trait

[craggy thunder]

didn't even notice that

art

[thorny berry]

oh god

[frank crystal]

So I just realized

The tarrasque had regeneration and no means to stop it

Can it die?

[solar tendon]

play to find out

but likely involves coming up with a relic designed for the purpose

[frank crystal]

I mean I’m the GM in this scenario lol

I’m putting a tarrasque in my game

And I wanted to know if it can die to not or if I need to include something else

[solar tendon]

play to find out is a gm principle ;P

[frank crystal]

[turbid dagger]

Yeah no each spawn of rovagug has a special way to disable its regen and kill it, like destroying an artifact
Tarrasques has yet to be discovered

[frank crystal]

Ah IC

[solar tendon]

the tarrasque is unsolved problem yeah

it's imprisoned for now

[turbid dagger]

But yes, as the GM you have the ability to decide what that method is
Maybe it's actually real simple and no one's tried orichalcym yet

[solar tendon]

on golarion anyway

[frank crystal]

Yah I think if that’s the case, the entire point of this one shot is to stop it from being unsealed

Where the players fight it if they fail at that

So I guess then the fight is just about resealing it

[solar tendon]

yeah for a one shot that makes sense :)

steppy

[turbid dagger]

That's a very small castle given tarrasques mechanical size

[craggy thunder]

god I forgot our gm does narrator voice

it's like

simultaneously cringe and cool

[silver geyser]

As someone who has natural narrator voice

It's the latter.

[craggy thunder]

lol

[craggy thunder]

We out here being the only character not taking damage yet

19 AC 21 with Dueling Parry and Expert in all saves Be Like That ™️

[turbid dagger]

I'm really looking forward to my chars own heavy armor (monk AC for you probably)+duelin parry AC upgrade

I love dodge tanking 😌

[craggy thunder]

Heavy armor with parry sounds rly fun lol

Also sidenote I think have the most HP

Cuz my ancestry is Orc

and everyone else has an 8 or 6 hp ancestry

[paper juniper]

Upgraded one of my gm's magic items to do the following
how can i word it better so it fits with how rules are in vanilla and is understandable

Casting Ability Mod times per day

Spirit animal / familiar locks onto a living being within 50ft, swapping positions with it as a swift action or reaction once per turn.If the target is unwilling they must succeed on a Will Saving Throw with a DC = (10 + 1/2 class level rounded up + Casting Ability score) , on a failed save they switch positions with the spirit animal/familiar and become flat-footed for 1 round as they are disoriented by the sudden positional switch.

[upbeat ridge]

Is this for 1e? Also does 1e actually use the term “spirit animal”

[silver geyser]

Yes, for Shaman. Specifically because they're different than a familiar

[paper juniper]

Ye

[paper juniper]

It is indeed 1e sorry i forgot to specify

[worthy delta]

Do ancestry unarmed attacks work well for monks, or do the monk stance unarmed attacks make them redundant?

[rustic cape]

Stance attacks are way stronger

[worthy delta]

Nods

[rustic cape]

Like the reason you’re spending a whole class feat on your unarmed stance is because it’s generally better spec than weapons or ancestry unarmed

[worthy delta]

Are ancestry unarmed attacks useful for any other classes, then?

[turbid dagger]

And if you for whatever reason are not inclined to take a stance feat, just the base Powerful Fist is roughly equivalent to the best ancestry unarmed attacks (agile d6 bludgeoning)

[turbid dagger]

Yeah!
Monk punches are just cracked
A two hander fighter or barbarian would greatly appreciate Gnolls Crunch for free hand grappling, and Lizardfolk Razor Claws can get crit spec and free ghost touch for Wrestlers or brawlers of all flavors

[worthy delta]

Oooooooh

[turbid dagger]

I consider Razor Claws one of the best ancestry feats in the game honestly
Because you get built in free hand Shortswords you can use for all the unarmed stuff like Elbow Breaker or Head Stomp

[worthy delta]

I do like lizardfolk so that's very tempting now

I also adore gnolls but sadly they're not an option in my GM's homebrew setting

[turbid dagger]

I've hyped up Lizardfolk claw inventor on here before, its a neat build option

[worthy delta]

I think I remember seeing that a while back!

[surreal basin]

Oh what’s the innovation?

[turbid dagger]

Armor
Overdrive and Offensive Boost applies to one weapon of choice and all you unarmed attacks, so you get a d8 onehander and alternate between it and Agile claw strikes to apply the overdrive damage
Or just take the bite feat also if you want to only be runing one item
Take the athletics booster to be better at grappling and Wrestler Archetype because tbh Inventor has a lot of dead class feat levels imo

[barren cipher]

the other notable ancestry attacks are the ranged ones, which mostly suck unless you’re already using handwraps at which point they can be quite good

on animal barb especially since you essentially have no other ranged options while raging

[turbid dagger]

The kitsune rogue in a game I'm gonna run soon is using foxfire for 'opportunistic sneak attack if I can't otherwise reach a dude who winds up on their ass'

[barren cipher]

wolf stance has a definite advantage over stumbling there

[light gyro]

speaking of finessing flat-footed, one of my favourite feats is one from the weapon improviser dedication where you can surprise a creature by whipping a brick at it
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2101

[craggy thunder]

Foxfire just sounds so fun to build around

[light gyro]

Potentially silly question: does Foxfire require you to not be in a tailless form?

[turbid dagger]

Yes, one of this feats benefits is to allow you to use tail related abilities in tailless form https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2623

[paper juniper]

so the magic item for 1e i mentioned

SpiritSlide Ring

Aura: moderate necromancy; CL 9th; Slot : ring; Price ??? + 18,000 gp; Weight —

Description:

This mystical ring, meticulously modified by Drake while in Nicholas' snow globe resonates with the arcane essence of spirit manipulation.Once per round, as a free action, the wearer can seamlessly exchange the positions of their familiar (or spirit animal) and a living being within 50 feet.

This ring's ability may only be used a number of times per day equal to the wearer's spellcasting ability modifier.

If the targeted individual resists this otherworldly swap, they must successfully resist the enchantment through a Will Saving Throw.The DC of this saving throw is 10 + half the wearer's class level (rounded up), + the wearer's relevant spellcasting Ability modifier. Failing the save results in an instantaneous positional switch, leaving the unwilling target flat-footed for 1 round. This effect is classified as a teleportation effect.

The SpiritSlide Ring has the additional feature of imparting to the wearer the names of those involved in the most recent positional exchange.

i think i made the description better

[craggy thunder]

Oh god wait you could make a switch hitter build and not have to spend actions switching as a foxfire kitsune

Oh no

Oh so many build ideas

[thorny berry]

Oh yeah I have foxfire on my martial arts thaum

Makes hand economy of passive implements way simpler

[turbid dagger]

Just completed my first game of PF2e (as a GM)
The team defeated the Dragon Tooth Kings and their wrathful pet dragon (two tooth fairies and a Weak Deinonychus that they have goaded into chasing them by pulling some of its teeth)
They also discovered a massive herd of Vegetable Lambs tending to a flower garden and discovered the grave of a T-Rex, with a mated pair of velociraptors living in the ribcage
A magic wand was acquired from the nest, as well as Too Much Alchemist's Fire
All in all, a good time was had, though a player unfortunately was not able to attend the game due to an issue with one of their eyes 😔

[silver geyser]

Yay for fun, boo for eye problems.

[surreal basin]

Mmmmm

I feel like the early part of SoT gets talked up way too much personally

My group had an awful time with it lol

[solar storm]

Had a very funny issue with Abomination Vaults last session

My players finally fought ||mr. Beak and because foundry had shifted over to the remaster he didn’t have Vampiric Touch|| which I had completely missed because of not realizing that he was a bestiary enemy

||I gave him some extra spells anyway but it was really funny to realize afterwards||

[warped orbit]

||he's supposed to have Phantom Pain l2 instead of Vamp Touch||

[solar storm]

Wait really?

Is that errata or something

[warped orbit]

It was an errata at one point IIRC yeah

[solar storm]

Hmm ok I think the module got it right cause he did have that

||and it made a great opener where it almost one shot the Kineticist who crit failed||

[carmine egret]

Oh shit this might actually answer a question I've had for a while, Foundry automatically updates AP material to the remaster?

[heavy fulcrum]

only if you update the server itself

[carmine egret]

gotcha

well that's pretty damn convenient for me still

[solar storm]

It did in this case because the no alignment change was system wide

I’ve run into issues on the player side of things though where feats did not update because the system still had the old one tucked away and kept it

And I assume something similar could happen on the AP side

[turbid dagger]

I did notice that the Esipil Sakhil's Evil damage has already been changed to Spirit, so thats neat

[craggy thunder]

Our gm has fully clocked all his players as having terminal designer brain

So there is now an official pipeline for talking about homebrew feats and shiz lol

[barren cipher]

you’re already dual class, it’s not like you can do much more than that

[craggy thunder]

lol yeah

[paper juniper]

Session 1 of level 16 game
Riding on the back of our form of the Dragon'd party mate to go fight a Kaiju

[turbid dagger]

Is there a list of like, actual, straight up NEW new stuff from the remaster
Our SOT GM is offering rebuilds for ORC and I'm trying to figure out if there are any non class specific things my summoner might want, since obv summoner isn't getting a remaster version anytime soon
Like, general/skill feats, spells (my summoner is primal), so on

[barren cipher]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nPYD9bZ7t-WIX3b1yTgwfM94RQm5WCqLIq4PGD27mNE/edit#gid=426096990

anyone's guess how complete it is

[turbid dagger]

Maybe I'm blind but this does not seem to have spells?

Oh its work in progress

[thorny berry]

hopefully aonprd has a tag or something when it updates

[light gyro]

I know aon already has the ability to link new newer versions of items/stat blocks at least.

[turbid dagger]

Huhhh
I just realized Healing Plaster is
Much Less Good than I thought it was
You can't use it for battle medicine RAW, and it takes an extra action to summon unless you are just continuously refreshing it every 10 minutes

[barren cipher]

it's more or less just worse healer's tools yeah

[warped orbit]

It is free Expanded after a few levels

But yeah it's not amazing

[turbid dagger]

I was happy with it as 'healers tools I don't need to buy' but its a downgrade from that now that I look closer, alas

[barren cipher]

it's not a cantrip for everyday use

cantrip slots are a lot scarcer than gold in my experience

[turbid dagger]

Yes, unfortunately it seems like my healer kineticist will have to buy healers tools and see about retraining their ancestry cantrip

[clever cobalt]

Do you think a Magus/Wizard dual class would work well?

[unborn rain]

it gives you more spell which you can afford to use on spell strikes

[rustic cape]

Also better spell proficiency, that ain’t bad either

[trail nova]

And Wizard’s pretty light on action economy other than “cast spells” IIRC

[thorny berry]

Magus/any four slot caster is gonna be pretty juiced

having 12 top rank or rank-1 slots to spellstrike with is pretty spicy

[rustic cape]

Witch would be nice because you can have your pick of traditions

[craggy thunder]

one of my dual-class builds is a Magus/Divine Witch

[thorny berry]

'best' choice might be sorceror if you're spellstriking only so you can get dangerous sorcery in? But obviously wizard would be better if you plan to actually use your spell dcs

[rustic cape]

Magus doesn’t actually have very many spells it can use with normal spellstrike, so grabbing another tradition might make Expanded Spellstrike less mandatory

[frank crystal]

What would be the best tradition for normal spellstrike?

[rustic cape]

Huh, in Player Core 1 there’s actually only one spell that has a spell attack roll and isn’t arcane

[solar tendon]

arcane is the best tradition already

yeah

but getting the ones arcane misses could help

[rustic cape]

Spiritual Armament is the only one in core

But that could interact with Spellstrike in very strange ways, as a sustain spell

[solar tendon]

idk if that's a spell that requires an attack roll

[rustic cape]

It does

[solar tendon]

as much as a spell that allows you to make a new type of Strike

it's the remaster version of spiritual weapon right

[rustic cape]

RAW it definitely meets spellstrike’s requirements

[warped orbit]

Most of the time you're fine just Spellstriking with cantrips or focus spells

[solar tendon]

like it's kinda the same as draconic barrage

though the wording is slightly different pre remaster at least

[rustic cape]

Sure, I’m just contemplating synergies

Going through AoN, Arcane has overwhelmingly got you covered though

Divine or Primal can get you Purifying Icicle XD

[solar tendon]

ah no they changed the wording on spiritual armament a lot

sorry

you're right

[rustic cape]

It’s a weird one

Divine nets you Deity’s Strike? That could be amusing

Although that one still has alignment-based rules text, so, hard to use

[craggy thunder]

I'd mainly go divine witch with magus for the support spells tbh

Become a weird Not A Paladin

[surreal basin]

Personally I’d do a similar thing but go primal for more offensive shit + some buffs

[turbid dagger]

I wish you could filter by spell attack roll on nethys or something
There's probably some way to set it up using complex queries but

[unborn rain]

You can get rid of save spells

which cuts down on the search a little

[rustic cape]

I was doing something along those lines, although the search turns up a lot of false positives

But most of what I was seeing was Arcane

[barren cipher]

i assume you can just look for stuff with the attack trait right?

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?include-traits=attack&sort=level-asc+name-asc&display=table&columns=pfs+source+tradition+rarity+trait+type+school+level+heighten+summary+actions+component+trigger+target+range+area+duration+saving_throw

it gets you some random curses from adventure paths as well

oh you can just filter those out hoho

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?include-traits=attack&exclude-traits=curse&sort=level-asc+name-asc&display=table&columns=pfs+source+tradition+rarity+trait+type+school+level+heighten+summary+actions+component+trigger+target+range+area+duration+saving_throw

primal's a contender as well

[thorny berry]

Still looking forward to hopefully playing my thaum with the straight up 'has strike as a subordinate action' spells

iirc the best list I saw for those was arcane when I dug into it

[rustic cape]

There were definitely things I saw on my search that I don’t see on that one

I think because there are spell attack roll spells that don’t have the attack tag

[limber comet]

I saw Magus+Witch talk here and...that's actually a really neat combo

I've never thought of that before

I always thought Magus+Wizard but Witch works well

[unborn rain]

God damn there are bearly any attack roll spells

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Tbh

I suggesting taking other things and grabbing expansive spellstrike

There’s something to be said for spellstriking with Slow and getting an attack alongside the spell

Or spellstriking an AOE

[unborn rain]

There's like 30 attack spells and 1/3 are cantrips

And only 2 of those cantrips arent Arcade

[turbid dagger]

But then you have to level int

[rustic cape]

Aye, frankly for Magus without dual class, Expansive Spellstrike is almost mandatory

[barren cipher]

i'm not sure it is

[rustic cape]

Just remember that some spells qualify for Spellstrike but don’t have the Attack tag

[barren cipher]

it's great on starlit span

[rustic cape]

So there are more than it appears

[warped orbit]

Expansive Spellstrike does give up one if the main advantages of Spellstrike, so it's a bit awkward

But generally you're just fine using just cantrips for Spellstrike

Or dipping for a good focus spell

Psychic is good for that

[light gyro]

it doesnt seem too bad - you trade higher average damage for more flexible action compression

although i'll admit its a lot to remember in-combat

[solar tendon]

I think the thing is you're not necessarily spending spell slots on spellstrike

and even then you have signature spells

or wait no not signature spells thats summoner

just heightening in general

[craggy thunder]

man I want Animist to be out already

lemme make my witch-warrior damn it!

[clever cobalt]

I can't wait for Exemplar 🥺

[thorny berry]

For both I'm gonna be quite curious to see how they change from playtest versions

[clever cobalt]

Same

[warped orbit]

I hope Exemplar gets medium armor but otherwise doesn't change too much

[frank crystal]

I really wanna see what the unarmed/brawling exemplar looks like

It’s kinda my ideal aesthetic for the class

[surreal basin]

We already know the only exemplar news I needed and that’s that it’s getting the unarmed one

[frank crystal]

I need to make a Beowulf character Emily

I need to be able to rip off a Troll’s arm and beat them with it

[thorny berry]

I just want animist to have a bit more than just the focus spells resting on the choice of active spirit

[frank crystal]

Idk if that’s gonna be included but I wanna do that

[thorny berry]

I miss 1e spirit dancer.....

(I was never actually insane enough to play a medium in 1e it just sounded cool)

[clever cobalt]

I wanna play Lizardfolk Hercules

Via Exemplar

[thorny berry]

neurons fire and I seize violently Kobold bard doing the Muses bit from the disney movie

[frank crystal]

I have like several exemplar ideas rn.

An elf swordsman looking to kill the greatest swordsman in the world

A pistolero who’s attempting to start an global workers revolt

A Beowulf type Minotaur who after obtaining their divine spark is trying to bring down the monsters carving out their own little nations (think dragons, vampires and other monsters who’s goals are larger then just eating people)

[thorny berry]

pistolero exemplar sounds like it has some pretty hot thematic room generally tbh

...Though I suppose it's one of those things where I'd feel incredibly awkward if there was an actual pistolero around lol

exemplar.txt I guess

[frank crystal]

I mean I guess yah but like, it’s a very evocative word for the build I want

Which is the dual air pistol build in the playtest

[thorny berry]

right, right

[frank crystal]

Which will probably stick around by the full release

[warped orbit]

Air repeater Exemplar is neat yeah

[frank crystal]

Assuming that the dual weapons feat is still generally the same

[craggy thunder]

what build is the elf swordsman exemplar?

I will admit I mostly paid attention to Animist

[frank crystal]

The swords weapon ikon. I don’t remember the name but I want to use that+the various ways to get flat damage to make a dex based swordsman with a finesse weapon

Not agile

I mistyped

I don’t really care about agile for this build

[craggy thunder]

so using the curved blade I would surmise

Is the idea they're Calistrian?

[frank crystal]

With how the ikon swapping works on exemplar, they’re kinda strapped for actions already

[frank crystal]

Not sure tbh

These are more rough ideas I’m think I’d just adapt to the setting my GM chooses

[craggy thunder]

fair

[frank crystal]

The actual details I’d decide more when I know the games premise

[craggy thunder]

speaking of adapting to the game's setting, or the setting adapting to the group

our party is having a fun time being thematic in an unexpected way

all of us have Death Problems ™️

One got revived after drowning, two are undead (also both of the undead are gnomes, which was coincidence), and my character's parents and teacher are dead

And the latter is possibly possessing her sword

[frank crystal]

Love a group that’s always close to death