Pathfinder

[solar storm]

Spoil-able AP?

[surreal basin]

Like don’t even read the AON stuff about it

Yeah

[solar storm]

Good to know thanks

[surreal basin]

It’s an EXTREMELY spoilable AP

and Nethys does a bad job with it imo

[solar storm]

God now I wanna knoowww

[surreal basin]

One of the basic enemies from the AP has like

A huge plot twist in their description

On AON

[turbid dagger]

I know what you mean
Unfortunately
And yes, very spoilable
Caution: Highly fragile plot inside

[surreal basin]

It’s like

Not a spoiler to the point that you can’t roleplay past it
But it’s one of those things where it’s super meant to be a surprise

[turbid dagger]

Yeah
You can play the AP in the know but you'll be sad about it

[frank crystal]

Emily can you DM me the enemy?

I don’t plan to play the AP and I wanna see how egregious it is

[clever cobalt]

What's a good Dual Class for a Magus?

[frank crystal]

Could go Fighter to have more consistent like

Super duper crits

Or thaum for the maximum possible per hit damage

[turbid dagger]

Witch, wizard, and psychic are nice on the 'more spells' end
And yeah fighter is good for just letting you land Spellstrike

[clever cobalt]

fair fair

[solar tendon]

investigator

[turbid dagger]

(psychic has less spells but good focus spells and cantrips)

[solar tendon]

you get full spellstrike and full devise a stratagem

[turbid dagger]

That is pretty neat yeah

[solar tendon]

int based attacks and choosing spells based on your roll

[barren cipher]

there used to be a staff nexus trick where you would massively overcharge your staff of the magi, run up to someone, cast indestructibility and then snap it over your knee

then, when the dust settled, cast remake

[warped orbit]

Psychic is nasty for Magus

[surreal basin]

That’s raw as fuck actually

Anime moment

[warped orbit]

Imaginary Weapon is an amazing Spellstrike spell

[surreal basin]

Of learning to abuse your power

[frank crystal]

Rexsplode

[barren cipher]

i’m gonna sacrifice myself and my staff to kill you! only, i’m a wizard so not really, but it has the same effect

[solar tendon]

I guess staff nexus is the best at spamming true strike

[craggy thunder]

god part of me wants my gm to have us dual class so bad xD

[trail nova]

Do it. Do it. (My mind has been broken by lv. 30 3.5 tristalts. I have a Dual Class style rule for Lancer. I am beyond redemption)

[thorny berry]

whomst among us has not contemplated dual class optimization, really

(you can simply Put Champion On Anything. It's easy, legal, and free.)

[clever cobalt]

Same thing with Fighter

[craggy thunder]

No dual-classing, f

Expected, but also f

[turbid dagger]

I was thinking about that during that convo
Champion/Summoner
Devotion Phantom Eidolon
Tandem Stride to stick together
If they hit you, Devotion Phantom attacks
If they hit them, you do your champ reaction
Tandem Strike as you please

[thorny berry]

oh yeah tandem strike, like

not sucking

is certainly a potential benefit of dual class lol

[turbid dagger]

Its so flavorful too
MF is a hollow Automaton and the phantom is just his own soul Lingering Will style

[frank crystal]

That’s fucking sick

[turbid dagger]

The only sad part is that if you tandem stride into tandem strike, you can't act together that turn

[eager mountain]

https://vxtwitter.com/MichaelJSayre1/status/1730285776926339333

https://tenor.com/view/the-rock-gif-23501265

[frank crystal]

What does this mean?

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/shrug-gif-25269231

[turbid dagger]

More class archetypes, mostly

[frank crystal]

That’s stuff like the wild magic archetype right?

[turbid dagger]

Possibly ones that aren't weird and/or suck

[eager mountain]

yeah like wildmagic

or elementalist

[turbid dagger]

Yeah
Or Spellshot

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[eager mountain]

what if

BLOODRAGER!?

also HE

[thorny berry]

I love class archetypes conceptually, though I'd have a hard time thinking of any existing ones in particular that I'm too hot on

Eldrtich trickster seems the big obvious one with it disappearing as a racket but idk what they'd do with it really

[turbid dagger]

I'm not really sure why most of em like
Need to be Archetypes
Like yeah flexible casting is a weird ass way to modify a druid but like
Why is the buy in a class feat you have to pre lock in like your exchanging promise rings

[thorny berry]

as in, why aren't they just subclasses?

I suppose that's a fair argument

Probably just because it makes sense for them to have an associated set of exclusive class feats

spitballing a bit, I'd be down for a summoner class archetype that dropped casting for a slightly more martial chassis

[turbid dagger]

Or like
They a bit more complicated than subclasses but they could be like an 'optional rule' or something
Something you just decide to do for a char rather than something you 'buy' with a feat

[turbid dagger]

Yes
Synthesist,

[thorny berry]

at a certain point I assume it's just because they didn't want to go 'we have archetypes, and archetypes but slightly different'

I just hope they're a bit less cautious with them

because the existing ones are all...... kinda bad

wellspring's decent but that's about it

elementalist has a potentially interesting spell list (and I'm still mad at losing spell schools robbing us of more tag-based ways of making spellcasting lists) but its actual feats are pretty anemic and then spellshot is just bad

[turbid dagger]

A lot of spellshots stuff seems fine
RK reload is Decent
The draw and little teeny bit of damage is like

Okay, maybe a weakness will happen

The reaction is actually pretty dang cool

Dispelling bullet also seems like the same sort of thing as the draw
It may be useful a few times

[thorny berry]

Is it, though? Your class DC is only going to go to master

[turbid dagger]

Clear off some buffs that are low level but annoying, like unmodified haste?
But yeah its definetely a 6/10 Way, which, yknow
Costs A Class Feat

That reminds me uhhh
Does Flexible Caster even have followup feats
Is there some little rules text I missed that says 'hey you can take another archetype after this even if you don't take 2 feats after'

[thorny berry]

I think it just doesn't have the clause about needing to take another two feats

which is technically specific per archetype and not a universal rule iirc

even though it's

really not in practice

[turbid dagger]

Ohhh I see
Yeah thats odd

Anyway, now I'm making a thief rogue in pathbuilder, since the remaster dropped on there

Reminded how Catfolk just get a climbing speed at 5
A bad climbing speed but
Goodness

[craggy thunder]

DUUUUAAAAAAL CLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSS

HARD MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOODE

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[eager mountain]

Wat?

[craggy thunder]

our gm is letting us dual class in exchange for making the game hard mode

[barren cipher]

better make it good then, you’ll get no mercy

[craggy thunder]

monk/swash all in on duelist-tanking

[thorny berry]

Sounds cute. Peafowl stance?

[craggy thunder]

hmmm

perhaaaaaaaps

[thorny berry]

from a raw optimization stance that could be a pretty terrifying grappler

[craggy thunder]

I am not grappling

[thorny berry]

ye I figured

duelist and all

[craggy thunder]

Ye

[thorny berry]

looks like swash's base stuff still works with agile/finesse unarmed, though a lot of its actual feats might not

stumbling stance's free feint could trigger fencer panache

[craggy thunder]

the gm is letting me use dueling sword with monastic weaponry

[thorny berry]

swanky

[frank crystal]

You can technically use free archetype, dual class and ancestral paragon all at the same time right?

[thorny berry]

you can do whatever you want in life

[craggy thunder]

we are doing dual class in exchange for not doing FA

which honestly is a fair trade

[turbid dagger]

You can just pick up and throw things at the miniatures on the table if you really want too

[frank crystal]

Just kick the players in the face

Not their characters

The players themselves

[thorny berry]

'what's your touch AC?'
'that's not in this editio-'
KAPOW

[frank crystal]

If you wish to kill the boss you must fist fight me

The GM

Kill me and the BBEG dies

It’s the only way

I should write a shitty creepypasta where the spirit of the BBEG possesses the DM and the players need to actually beat them to death to stop the BBEG

[wary yoke]

My love of funky, complex character builds will be the death of me. I'm statting up a friendly NPC, one character's father; he's a centaur rancher that has been the subject of a running gag that any time his son is retraining for HP, he's going to the family ranch and wrestling

I'm statting him up as a combat maneuver cavalier

Charger archetype for centaurs, Order of the Hammer (free grapple on a charge)

[craggy thunder]

our party is a monk/swashbuckler, a fighter/kineticist, a druid/alchemist, a bard/rogue, and a psychic and alchemist that haven't decided their dual class yet

[thorny berry]

are-

are they half centaur

which half

[wary yoke]

Decataur, from Bloodforged

[thorny berry]

lmao

[wary yoke]

Elf and centaur parent

[thorny berry]

that owns

[wary yoke]

It's actually one of my favorites in that book, which had a lot of hits and misses

His half-brother is also there, I'm going to stat him up as a switch hitter

Firearms ranger

[turbid dagger]

I just realized
Weapon Infusion let's you shape a weapon out of the usual elements you control
And assumedly that covers both aspects, so you could do a wind sword or lightning spear
So aside from a wood sword, wood kineticist can make a Vitality lightsaber

[frank crystal]

[worthy delta]

That makes me wanna do a wood Kineticist even more omg

Vitality lightsaber…

I know what I’m rolling up in my free time today

[frozen hatch]

If I wanted to have my players run across a "mysterious egg" merchant where he will sell them 1 or more unspecified eggs what might I have as options? I know for example if they fork over 200 gold they'll get a hippogriff egg and 25 gold will get them a composaurus egg but what other eggs might they get for certain prices?

[sinful gyro]

Owlbear egg?

Chocolate egg

[turbid dagger]

Mad expensive dragon egg
Alternatively, mad cheap dragon egg which someone (a dragon, I imagine) is looking for

[frank crystal]

Is monk in the remaster?

[solar tendon]

player core 2

[sinful gyro]

All classes are in the remaster

Just some of them aren't being remastered

For example gunslinger still works as is

[worthy stump]

yeah, all the classes from Secrets of Magic onwards aren't getting the remaster treatment yet, just some errata to keep them up to date with the changes

[solar tendon]

the new core books just only cover crb + apg

(player sided)

[paper inlet]

So foundry treats champions as nephilim? or at least it has nephilim trait

My character that is

[frank crystal]

I don’t they should

That seems like a mistake

You should only have the nephilim trait if you are a nephilim

I guess just delete it from your character?

[thorny berry]

Maybe it's supposed to be sanctified? I didn't look at the champion errata

they'll be getting the full remaster treatment in a couple months anyway

I feel like most of the spicy class remasters got moved to the apg

other than like witch and warpriest

[paper inlet]

I also have unholy trait so yeah

Maaaaybe?

[frank crystal]

It could legitimately just be a mistake

The remaster did just come out

There’s probably some typos with the PF2E module

[turbid dagger]

I wonder what enemy that is

[heavy fulcrum]

its a skulltaker!

https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=377

real nasty lads

[turbid dagger]

MFer is 18, sweet lord

[heavy fulcrum]

level 18, all the unsual undead immuinities, a 10 ft aura that counteracts death wards and deals slashing/negative, energy drain on both melee attacks, innate finger of death, horrid wilting and punishing wind at 8th twice each, a 60 ft effect that raises anyone who dies near it into a skeletal champion and it has a 100 ft emenation that makes the area painful to move through

splintered ground is mean

Splintered Ground [one-action] The skulltaker causes splintered bones to erupt from all solid surfaces in a 100-foot emanation, except for surfaces of worked stone. A creature moving through the bones takes 10 piercing damage and 10 negative damage for every 5 feet of movement. The first time each round a creature takes piercing damage from these splintered bones, it must succeed at a Reflex save or take a –10-foot circumstance penalty to all Speeds for 10 minutes, or a –15-foot circumstance penalty for 24 hours on a critical failure. The bones remain in place until the skulltaker uses this action again or the bones are manually removed, which takes 10 minutes for each 5-foot square.

[turbid dagger]

Oh man I actually like the flavor a lot
The final act of that campaign concept I ramble about a lot is set on the Path Of Aganhei so these guys would fit in well

[frank crystal]

Holy shit and that’s only 1 action too

[silver geyser]

I'd say grind up the leftover bones for fertilizer after the fight

[frank crystal]

That feels like a 3 action action

[silver geyser]

But the fact that they deal negative energy damage is

[heavy fulcrum]

and yeah, theyre what happens when lots of people die (usually on/near mountains) and all their negative energy fuses together into one really angry entity

[silver geyser]

Probably a sign that'd be a bad idea

[heavy fulcrum]

including having access to all of their memories and knowledge

(it has every recall knowledge at +30 and can cast Legend Lore by itself)

so if it acquires a grudge against someone or something, it can be a nasty long term threat

[turbid dagger]

Its the collective ghost of dudes like Green Boots

[silver geyser]

See, this leads me to a fun specialty job idea

Send parties to investigate dangerous to travel through areas

And have them recover bodies and give proper burials

Also an Ustalavian burial tradition that someone homebrewed

Which was "For gods sake, don't burn the bodies, we'd rather have any undead that happen be physical"

[frank crystal]

I kinda like the idea of someone who died by being abandoned or betrayed on a mountain and their hatred kinda overtakes the rest of the souls

So it’s just fully committed to revenge for that person in particular

[turbid dagger]

I find the focus on lore and RKs kind of funny
Because I'm wondering what practical effect it has on the monster
I guess the idea is that you bargain with it for info

[frank crystal]

They have approximative knowledge on many things

[turbid dagger]

Now if one of its innate spells was, you know
Organsight
Then maybe that big omnilore would be spooky

[frank crystal]

Organsight does seem evocative for this thing

[turbid dagger]

For max flavor it'd be more like Bonesight really but I imagine that's probably still scary to deal with
MFer slashes you straight in your spine

Sneaks right by your ribs to get your heart
etc

[frank crystal]

It goes specifically for the joints on your arm

Tears the cartilage

[craggy thunder]

okay so hold on

Does dual-classing give you two class ability boosts?

[frank crystal]

I don’t think so?

[warped orbit]

ability boosts don't stack from both classes

I assume that also applies to the initial one

[craggy thunder]

okay cool

[frank crystal]

I think I wanna play a dual class character just to get a character who can actually use tandem strike on summoner

[barren cipher]

they don’t stack if they’re the same but you do get two if they’re different yeah

[frank crystal]

Oh damn really?

[craggy thunder]

What's a fun dual class frontliner in case my current character bites it?

Champ/Magus could be fun...

[turbid dagger]

I was talking up Champion/Summoner a while back

Devotion Phantom to give your enemy a no win situation when trying to attack you
Occult spells to buff yourself with
Actually functional Tandem Strike

[craggy thunder]

Champ/Summoner sounds baller as fuck

[frank crystal]

Ranger thaumaturge

Just look at one person

And kill them

[craggy thunder]

[turbid dagger]

Barbarian Inventor is also a fave
Numeria is right next door as well

[craggy thunder]

This is just Sol Badguy

[frank crystal]

Elemental fire barbarian weapon inventor

[turbid dagger]

Overdrive+Rage+Offensive Boost+Weapon Innovation = 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳 😳

[frank crystal]

Also known as:

https://tenor.com/view/sol-install-sol-badguy-sol-dragon-install-sol-badguy-dragon-install-gif-23728904

[craggy thunder]

Inventor/Alchemist actually sounds super fun

[solar tendon]

overdrive/rage/stance first turn

[turbid dagger]

Now would fire elemental barb be better
Or red dragon barb

[frank crystal]

I feel like fire elemental

Oh actually

Red dragon barb does literally get fire damage rage

And wings

[craggy thunder]

Oh also Champ/Thaum

[frank crystal]

Yah absolutely red dragon then

[craggy thunder]

Fucking

obviously

[frank crystal]

Also what about witch thaumaturge?

[craggy thunder]

witch/thaum feels more midliner?

[frank crystal]

Yah fair

I kinda forgot you were asking for a frontliner

Not just another cool dual class

[craggy thunder]

lolol

Champ/Oracle could be fun...

[frank crystal]

Oh actually: vanguard gunslinger barbarian

Go dwarf to get the dwarf scattergun

[craggy thunder]

I'm weird and was thinking drifter/champ

with blade ally

[clever cobalt]

Monk/Barbarian

[frank crystal]

With ranged smite as a paladin that would go hard

[clever cobalt]

become the ultimate grappler

[frank crystal]

Just shoot someone for hurting your friends

[clever cobalt]

Hmm

I'm wondering how you would do like, the fantays equivalant of a close quarter shotgunner

but I guess a fighter or vanguard gunslinger works just fine

[frank crystal]

I feel like vanguard gunslinger kinda does fulfill that roll

[clever cobalt]

hmm

[craggy thunder]

I think what I'm gonna do is narrow down my focus to having Champ as a base

[frank crystal]

Unfortunately somewhat hampered by scatter weapons generally not being super good

[clever cobalt]

do you think Fighter/Gunslinger would be a good multiclass, or would it be redundant?

[craggy thunder]

And then sound out character concepts that help with that

[clever cobalt]

and yeah, unfortunetly

[frank crystal]

And it being generally just better to grab the arquebus

[clever cobalt]

I'm in a game with uh

[craggy thunder]

I mean fighter gives you heavy armor?

So not strictly?

[clever cobalt]

Ancestry Paragon, Dual Class, and Gradual Ability boost

[craggy thunder]

Holy shit

[frank crystal]

Goddamn

[clever cobalt]

currently an Earth Kineticist/Earth Elemental Barbarian Lizardfolk

[craggy thunder]

muh optional rules

[clever cobalt]

It's fun

it's also Kingmaker

[frank crystal]

But also my thing with that is just that, I don’t know exactly like, what it would do for each other

[turbid dagger]

Depends on how you wanna run it I think
Like, Stab And Blast gunslinger fighter is going to cause many deaths

[clever cobalt]

yeah, that's my concern

[craggy thunder]

actually

[frank crystal]

Like, most of the ranged focused fighter feats don’t work super well with reload 1 weapons

[craggy thunder]

This is a bit powergamey

[frank crystal]

Which is what gunslingers work with

[craggy thunder]

blade ally triggerbrand lmao

[clever cobalt]

👀 ❓

[frank crystal]

GUNBREAKER

[clever cobalt]

oh nice

[craggy thunder]

with paladin cause and ranged retribution

[clever cobalt]

would that make the Triggerbrand actually feasible?

and not bad?

[frank crystal]

I mean I think triggerbrand is fine mostly

Oh

You mean the triggerbrand weapon

Not subclass

[clever cobalt]

I mean the subclass yeah

[frank crystal]

Oh

Well damn

I think they’re good

[craggy thunder]

Honestly may go Champ/Magus

And just be a basic-ass Mage Knight

For my backup character

You know what I'm surprised hasn't been made yet

A bomb sling

not the bomb launcher

a bomb sling

[frank crystal]

Goliath’s worst fear

[craggy thunder]

I can't decide what'd be cooler conceptually

A champ oracle or a champ summoner

[turbid dagger]

I'm still obsessed with lingering will champsummoner

[craggy thunder]

But have you considered

A Paladin with the fucking Avatar State

[frank crystal]

Summoner champion with the ghost archetype

Just two spirits

[thorny berry]

my spicy dual class pitch:

battle oracle/barbarian

halfway through the fight you just go 'motherfucker it is ON'

probably not actually very good but hey

[carmine egret]

https://mmoculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Gigantic-Season-of-Souls-screenshot-1.jpg can't for the life of me remember the character's actual name so I can't find good pics but

[thorny berry]

aisling!!!

[carmine egret]

yeaaaahh

[thorny berry]

god I miss gigantic

[carmine egret]

that's champ/summoner for you

[craggy thunder]

YEEEEAAAAAAHHHH AISLING GIGANTIC GOES HAAAAARD

[thorny berry]

I mained tyto...

[craggy thunder]

Tyto also fucks

And same

[thorny berry]

there was some weird one-off revival event gearbox ran recently, there were rumors that it might point to a relaunch

[craggy thunder]

god I miss Gigantic

[carmine egret]

oh shit tyto's a swashbuckler huh

[thorny berry]

for sure

he out here tumbling through

[carmine egret]

...you can do a lot of Gigantic characters in PF2

[thorny berry]

...now I want a swashbuckler feat to imitate his finisher (panache) reset on kill talent lol

[craggy thunder]

I mean

There is

Finishing Follow-Through

[thorny berry]

.....I am showing the exact amount of swashbuckler I've played (none)

[craggy thunder]

lmao

As a person who has played at this point three characters

two of whom are swashes

l o l

[frank crystal]

Oh actually

Here’s an idea

Ancestor oracle rogue

So no matter what ancestor you get

You can always do it

[craggy thunder]

Weird, probably stupid idea

Ranger/Magus

Precision Edge

You are only every attacking once on your turn

Be the weird nature swordmage dickweed

l m a o

[frank crystal]

Hunter’s Mark

Spellstrike

Hope to the gods above for a crit

Get a crit: delete someone from Golarion

[thorny berry]

the venerable magus-investigator

[craggy thunder]

actually

ranger/magus twisting tree

[frank crystal]

I forget are magus’s stat bonus to int or strength/dex?

[craggy thunder]

sounds fucking baller

strength or dex

[frank crystal]

Thanks

[turbid dagger]

Yeah Magus in theory can do -1 int now
Since mod to spell damage no longer exists and you Will Not Cast Spells Normally

[warped orbit]

the main thing I see there is that managing both your Prey and recharging Spellstrike is pretty rough on your action econ

[turbid dagger]

As I understand it Magus is usually fated to have a 'conflux turn' anyhow

[barren cipher]

champ magus strikes me as pretty good

magus has enough punch anyway

monk too, just ignore martial arts and take the defences

[craggy thunder]

well if you take arcane fists you can spellstrike with a monk stance strike

[barren cipher]

yeah, cascade benefits are quite good for a lot of people though

you could just take weapon feats so you can flurry on your off turn, or just totally ignore it and take ki spells, some of them are quite good

[turbid dagger]

Hm......
Laughing Shadow Magus/Thief Rogue.....
Lots of flat damage.... much flat footed....

[solar storm]

I saw someone play that as a multiclass in a actual play show it whipped

(Occasionally literally)

[barren cipher]

you can definitely afford a d4 weapon

[true delta]

What's the best way of having your character on your phone?

[sinful gyro]

Pathbuilder?

[unborn rain]

What parts of the character do you want most accessable

[true delta]

hmm

I want it to be beginner-friendly

It should include dice-rolling

Yeah, Pathbuilder is good. :)

[craggy thunder]

So I had a fun idea this morning

an extension of the dual-class system where you have class combination feats

[craggy thunder]

Fun fact Champ/Oracle dual class starts play with three Focus Points lmao

[rustic cape]

Dual class optimization is amusing, yeah

[clever cobalt]

Fighter/Barbarian my beloved

[rustic cape]

Barbarian/Champion

Barbarian/Ranger 😄

[clever cobalt]

Fighter/Monk

[rustic cape]

Fighter/Anything that hits stuff

[craggy thunder]

Fighter/Monk or Fighter/Champ are both disgusting

Cuz they get expert in any weapon or strike they could conceivably want to use, and expert in their main defense

You know

Monk/Champ could be super fun

tbh

[frank crystal]

Simply refuse to die

Just say no

[clever cobalt]

As I've said before

[trail nova]

Fighter/Champ feels like you'd be a little squeezed on reactions. Up until lv. 10 or so when the free reaction feats come out.

[clever cobalt]

I'm playing a Draconic Scion (thanks Battlezoo) Earth Kineticist/Earth Elemental Barbarian Dual Class in a game with Ancestry Paragon and Gradual Ability Boost as well

It's fun

[craggy thunder]

our gm is kinda going fully balls to the wall

[clever cobalt]

Same

This is my ||isekai|| Kingmaker game

It's quite fun

[trail nova]

Dual Class Free Archetype Ancestry Paragon.

[craggy thunder]

For us this is like

Also a kingmaker game

but like

it's weird

we're trying to prevent the colonization of the Stolen Lands

and create a mutual aid network instead

[clever cobalt]

Not FA but otherwise yeah

[clever cobalt]

Oh nice

[trail nova]

Just joking about "way too much stuff."

[frank crystal]

Man

Now I feel like a fool

I just realized I should have taken burning jets on my fire metal earth automaton kineticist

So I could describe thrusters appearing on his back and legs

[turbid dagger]

Our group is still trying to figure out what kind of government we want
Funnily none of us particularly want to be like
The Ruler
Like the actual role in the kingdom sheet
We're all like 'but I don't want to overshadow the others by getting to be King'
So we're thinking about using that one feat that lets civil servants fill one role for you to slot into Ruler
Which I suppose would basically be a parliament

(Why we would then go on to be the permanent occupants of roles like General and so on while the policymakers are elected officials is 🤫 )

[craggy thunder]

So one of the other players is an Alchemist/Witch

How does them having Alchemical Familiar while being a Witch like

work?

[barren cipher]

i don’t think there’s any mechanism for having two familiars, i guess you could roll them together

[craggy thunder]

I think I figured it out

they're rolled together

but it's basically just a Witch amount of familiar abilities with the other alch familiar benefits

man

gentleman aldori duelist investigator sounds really fun

[craggy thunder]

lmao

[craggy thunder]

https://pathbuilder2e.com/app.html?v=77a

I love making stupid precision damage builds

[craggy thunder]

man I'm sad Phalanx Piercer sucks

[trail nova]

Hey. Stare at a terrible feat for long enough and you might stumble upon an infinite damage build! That’s what I ended up doing!

[craggy thunder]

I mean the Phalanx Piercer is a weapon lol

[trail nova]

Ah, still.

[craggy thunder]

I think it sadly isn't salvageable

It's a Reload 1 bow

and not a crossbow so ranger or gunslinger stuff wouldn't work with it

[turbid dagger]

It also does not really do appreciably more damage than like, a composite longbow

And now that I think about it, compared to other advanced weapons the Taw Launcher is near universally better in its niche
Reload 1, d10, but deadly d10 also, no volley, modular BPS
No razing or propulsive but that is a small amount of damage with some niche reqs

[warped orbit]

Taw is good, yeah

[craggy thunder]

You know

Speaking of the taw launcher

Conrasu Sniper

XD

I was thinking about the taw launcher independently and lo and behold I look in here

[turbid dagger]

Yeah Conrasu kicks ass for a slinger

If you crit with a taw launcher the dude on the other end just dies

I really want to do reinforced stock taw stab and blast slinger
But unfortunately none of the melee Ways really want that
Vanguard wants str, Triggerbrand wants combo weps, drifter wants dual wielding
So I guess I'd just do Sniper Who Does Not Snipe

Or rather, Sniper Who Flexibly Transfers From Ranged To Melee

[craggy thunder]

I wish Verdant Weapon was a ranger feat so bad

[turbid dagger]

Look Rangers only get the weird nature spells
Like 'harness gravity itself to give you a small status bonus to damage'
Or, uh
Snare Hopping

[frank crystal]

Snare hopping is nature magic because the earth eats your snare before popping them out elsewhere

[eager mountain]

only on android

[turbid dagger]

So, I've had a character in the tank for a while, Automaton Twisting Tree Magus
And I've finally found good art for them
(Art by NN_EE_ZZ on twitter)

[thorny berry]

Snare hopping is

One of the spells of all time

[frozen hatch]

So I did the random egg lottery with my players and gave them the option to be privately told what they received or to keep it a surprise. Everyone seemed to enjoy the opportunity though I am waiting a few sessions before the eggs start to hatch.

The cavalier only bet 5 gold in the single gold box and ended up with 2 chicken eggs, a lizard, a trio of House centipedes (in a single egg), and an unusually large shrike egg which his possibly man-eating murderous horse has taken an liking to.

The oracle spent 200, 50, and 2 single told and got a hippogriff egg, an egg containing a ram, one with a donkey rat, and a rat (blue) egg.

The Rogue (eventually ninja due to playing Jade Regent) got a Deinonychus, a squirrel egg, and a donkey rat egg after buying a 500 and 2 single gold eggs

Our witch only bought a pair of 50 gold eggs which will be a crocodile and a bison when hatched.

All in all it seems like they enjoyed it and I will be interested in seeing what they'll do with the animals once they hatch. They also all expressed interest in the possibility of meeting the merchant again in the future.

[turbid dagger]

Wait a minute
I just looked this up
PF calls capybaras 'donkey rats'?
wh
why

[carmine egret]

I mean look at em

[solar tendon]

ogl compatibility

[paper juniper]

So chat
I have made a very melee heavy unchained monk
I wish for feedback on my ki power choices

From anyone who knows abt them

[frozen hatch]

Wait tjats what a capybara is also known as?

[carmine egret]

But to be more serious I believe this goes back to the earliest material where they were more inclined to use names like that for creatures that weren't familiar to European peoples

Like in Kingmaker it also refers to a thylacine as a "bush tiger" I believe

[frozen hatch]

I didn't know that tbh

The Witch wanted to know what she got and agreed to keep it secret from the other players. She has already decided her crocodile is going to be named chompy and the bison Floof.

It's also ironic in her case because she is a winter witch and crocs hate the cold

[paper juniper]

judge my choices and give me reccomendations please

[paper juniper]

Im mostly worried whirlwind attack will like
Never come up

[craggy thunder]

I am out here trying to conceptualize a sword my character's master originally used that combined aspects of the different sword styles he'd learned

[frank crystal]

What are the styles?

[craggy thunder]

So far I have the aldori dueling sword (statistically what the weapon is), the temple sword, and the katana

and the dao actually

add the dao in there

[frank crystal]

Hmm, admittedly it is kinda weird to combine them because like, the way the temple sword is describe is that it’s kinda curved forward

It’s directly compared to a sickle

[craggy thunder]

I think with the katana it's gonna be those little trinkets put under the handle wrap for both decoration and better grip

[frank crystal]

Oh yah that works

[craggy thunder]

This image of Sajan has him using a temple sword

[frank crystal]

Ohhhh

I never realized that’s what it’s supposed to be

[craggy thunder]

eyup lmao

[frank crystal]

Could steal from that kinda, large hand stop at the end of the grip

Idk what to call it

But something like it to make the sword more secure when being held as long as possible

[craggy thunder]

It's some kind of pommel

[frank crystal]

Right pommel

That’s the word

[craggy thunder]

I think I might just go aldori sword, katana, dao, temple sword, scimitar, and figure out a sixth curved blade

It's mainly little bits of the original weapons on top of an aldori sword

[rustic cape]

The dao is like eighty different kinds of sword, maybe look into different daos?

[craggy thunder]

I'm specifically drawn to the liuyedao

specifically for the katana similarities it doesn't help that in some cases

a person's aldori sword is kind of just a katana lmao

[paper juniper]

which reminds me

why is a jian not statted out

like
its not hard

make it a monk version of a shortsword with like a feint based property and slightly better crit range

[craggy thunder]

idk if it explicitly needs to be a monk weapon

It probably would be p similar to a shortsword tho

hmmm

deadly d6 instead of agile?

That feels wrong tho

This might be fucked but d4 damage dice in exhange for it being agile, finesse, parry?

[frank crystal]

Honestly, that feels fine

Because personally?

I’d never use that

That feels kinda weak imo

[craggy thunder]

yeah...

but if it's a d6 it's just a better shortsword

[frank crystal]

True

And that is kinda it’s, closest comparison

[craggy thunder]

Hold on

[frank crystal]

Both being kinda short straight one handed swords

[craggy thunder]

Two-Hand D8

[frank crystal]

[craggy thunder]

flurry rangers and duelist fighters everywhere frothing at the mouth

Fuck it

[frank crystal]

We do need more two handed finesse weapons

Like not even specifically that trait

Just more finesse weapons that use two hands

But also that trait

[craggy thunder]

I mean we have the two elven weapons, the dueling spear, bladed scarf, spiked chain, explosive dogslicer, dancer's spear, rope dart, and whipstaff

[frank crystal]

I mean yah but that isn’t to many compared to the like

Hundreds of weapons total

[craggy thunder]

That's fair

making it agile with a two hand profile does actually sound super fun for fighter builds

or monks

It'd be fucked up on Monk

[frank crystal]

Yah two handed agile finesse is like

A genuine niche

And fits the sword

[craggy thunder]

Should it just be two-handed?

So as to not directly compete with the shortsword?

[frank crystal]

I feel like just two handed D8 works fine

[craggy thunder]

Fair

[frank crystal]

So long as the one handed profile is weaker then the short sword

Because it turns into one of those things where if you actually use the two handed profile, it’s better then the short sword

But if you just care about it one handed it’s worse

Which is really the niche two handed weapons should fall into

[craggy thunder]

well how would the one handed profile be weaker

the shortsword is also d6 agile finesse versatile s

[frank crystal]

Hmm

🤔

[craggy thunder]

The bastard sword loses out on the versatile damage type

for a comparative of 'version of a weapon that gains the two-hand DX trait'

[frank crystal]

Yah that’s probably fine then

[craggy thunder]

I would be sad to have the jian lose the versatile s trait tbh

since I like it specifically as a cut-and-thrust sword

[thorny berry]

If I may float a possible alternative, what if they used THOUSAND BLADE THESIS or something like it

[rustic cape]

So re: jian not being statted up, PF has increasingly veered away from Exotic Asian Armaments in favor of the (true) position that a straight, double edged one handed sword is a a straight, double edged one handed sword

[warped orbit]

that's just a rapier

[craggy thunder]

Fair

In that case I propose a new archetype of such swords exists to emulate a faster more duelist-oriented construction of said sword be they lighter jian, estocs, or the like

Cuz I just generally like that archetype be it a European sword or from somewhere else

[rustic cape]

Sure, sounds reasonable

[craggy thunder]

What?

[warped orbit]

it's a scroll that can store weapons

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1081

[thorny berry]

Yup. Gives you free action draws between a bunch of different weapons for a bit

[craggy thunder]

Not the vibe tbh

[thorny berry]

Understandable

[turbid dagger]

D8 agile doesn't exist outside monk stances, by the by

If I understand the convo properly

[frank crystal]

Oh right

I kinda forgot that’s a whole thing

Agile weapons aren’t really allowed to go over a d6

[turbid dagger]

It's funny because finesse agile d8 is bug eyes crazy by pf2es traditional weapon balancing curve but is the baseline for monk stances

[clever cobalt]

Yeah, Wolf Stance for example is that and much more

[rustic cape]

Or Stumbling >_<

Love Stumbling

[thorny berry]

digging into class feats, druids get some cute stuff: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nPYD9bZ7t-WIX3b1yTgwfM94RQm5WCqLIq4PGD27mNE/edit#gid=41963025

unique druid animal companion feats, neat

nice subclass feats in general

[craggy thunder]

I think since the d8 requires two hands it’d be fine?

Especially since the Two-Hand trait usually gives d10 or d12

[clever cobalt]

True

[rustic cape]

D8 agile two-handed weapon sounds fun, yeah

[turbid dagger]

D8 is the cap for 2hand finesse weps anyway
Unless you just mean d8 agile no finesse
Which may be within the curve but feels like a design taboo anyway lmao

[craggy thunder]

fugg ur right

I so badly wanna make it agile lmao

Actually

Whipstaff is 2-handed agile finesse d6

But also has Parry and Sweep

So honestly

I think it’d be fine

[turbid dagger]

If you want too
But typically I think by PF2e's balancing considerations you can only 'gain' so much budget by cutting ancillary traits
A d14 weapon with no traits at all might hypothetically be 'balanced' with the greatsword (versatile p) or greataxe (sweep) but its not Polite, yknow?
But this is not paizo's design floor so do what your heart tells you

[craggy thunder]

I do genuinely think it’d be fine not even just for the numbers reasons

The three character classes I’d see as most likely to use this would be Fighter, Ranger, and Monk

Fighter just gets to straightforwardly have this be a great weapon, though we have to ask if the two-handed feats would work that well

Flurry Ranger would love this, but has no direct feats for two-handed weapons

Monk gets a new toy for Peacock Stance

I suppose Rogue gets this too

Rogue would like this thing too actually

This honestly might be best on Rogue

I don’t think it’d be one of those weapons that’s hypothetically balanced but clearly the best in class

I think it’d be good for specific builds, ideally like any weapon is

[turbid dagger]

Ehhhh
d8 agile finesse does crowd out a lot of options for the dex classes, in my honest opinion
Getting that now requires two class feats

Of the 10-11 you get

[craggy thunder]

What feats?

[turbid dagger]

A dedication unless you are monk, such as Monk or Martial Artist
Then the stance feat

[craggy thunder]

I will point out that stances leave your hands free for stuff like grappling

While this requires both hands be occupied

[turbid dagger]

It being two handed does shake things up but not by a massive amount
As a dex char you are not particularly taken with maneveurs anyway most of the time

[craggy thunder]

mm, that’s true

[turbid dagger]

The main twist up I think is that a dude with a stance can rock a shield

Annoyingly

[craggy thunder]

God that’s so weird but true

[turbid dagger]

Because shield plus punch is mad lame

[craggy thunder]

I do have an idea

one hand 1d4

two hand 1d6

Add parry

[turbid dagger]

That's fun, yeah
Though, do you even two hand jians that much
Thats where this started right

[craggy thunder]

There are varieties that you are able to two-hand

And this has evolved from a jian to a more generally nimble straight sword

[turbid dagger]

Id honestly lean more towards finesse d6 two hand d8, with a funny trait like parry or sweep
Back swing or sweep would let you selectively replicate agile while staying in budget also

[craggy thunder]

I can see that being another conception of the weapon

This one pleases my brain more tho;

1d4 Piercing

Uncommon, Finesse, Agile, Parry, Monk, Two-Hand 1d6, Versatile S

[rustic cape]

… yes, that works nicely imo

[craggy thunder]

Jalmeri Dueling Sword

[barren cipher]

shortsword and call it a day imo

get yourself duelling parry if you want to be defensive with style

[craggy thunder]

I mean

A valid perspective

I just disagree

[barren cipher]

it's just also kinda worse than punching someone in the face if you're a monk

stances aside

[craggy thunder]

I mean

Most monk weapons are worse

[barren cipher]

you can just headbutt someone for d6 agile finesse and have two free hands

[craggy thunder]

like

[warped orbit]

yeah and that's a problem IMO

[craggy thunder]

I mean fair

I’m just working within the balance which currently exists

[warped orbit]

Monk weapons just feel kinda underbaked currently

because most of them don't really have a reason to be used

[craggy thunder]

Y’all

[barren cipher]

yeah, they are pretty bad

i think the wuxia jian fantasy probably needs a little more specific support, like a mixed armed/unarmed stance that does something about the runes, although monk isn't the worst chassis if you have abp and do duelist or fighter dedication or something

actually is disarming stance good now?

[warped orbit]

Disarm is actually usable now

I would still consider Trip better overall, but Disarm is at least not a dead trait anymore

[barren cipher]

it's not amazing but i guess +1 to disarm and +2 to not be disarmed is nothing to sniff at

[turbid dagger]

Disarming Stance also gives disarming twist +1 circ to hit
Which is actually nuts given both those are fighter feats
Like
Bro What

[warped orbit]

my remaining gripe with Disarm now is that it still only works against armed enemies

[turbid dagger]

Flank a dude and your hitting like a no map any other martial with that press

[warped orbit]

which isn't that few, but it still feels a bit weird to me that it doesn't work on a lot of them

[turbid dagger]

I guess the offset is like
If you do crit a guy, and crits do happen
You kind of just win

[warped orbit]

yeah its fair

[turbid dagger]

Assuming someone can snatch the weapon up before they do

[warped orbit]

the crit success is definitely more debilitating for Disarm

[barren cipher]

disarm being good is a strong motivator to implement ABP or some fundamental rune alternative

[turbid dagger]

I'm still all fucked up from last km session where I disarmed a boss, they tried to fix grip, and my AoO crit disrupted it

[warped orbit]

nice

[barren cipher]

'i got disarmed and can't access my blessed greased flaming freezing ghost-tickling hambane longsword, guess i'll hit him with this rock' is a different feeling from 'i got disarmed and can no longer play the game'

[warped orbit]

yeah I'm growing a lot more partial to ABP over time

or I guess I should say, ABP for fundamental runes only

skill items can stay as they are

[barren cipher]

fundamental runes on magic tattoos

you don't even have to change the treasure system

[warped orbit]

yeah making fundamentals imbue into the character also works

[barren cipher]

and magic tattoos becoming useful and powerful is a big plus

[craggy thunder]

ABP?

[warped orbit]

Automatic Bonus Progression

[barren cipher]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1357

[craggy thunder]

Ahhhh

Our group is using that

[turbid dagger]

All this talk of jians has also got me thinking about that cultivator hybrid study again
So excited for the Tian Xia book 🥺
Wondering what its niche is gonna be- most of the hybrid studies cover a particular fighting style

Laughing shadow is already the 'weapon+free hand' one

[solar tendon]

ooh

nimble strike

rogue feat to get an attack when you nimble dodge

[warped orbit]

oh that's a nice alternative to Backstab

[solar tendon]

makes me want to play a preperation rogue even more

[warped orbit]

Prep is already super good tbh

[solar tendon]

it isss

[warped orbit]

Opportunistic Backstab does work

[turbid dagger]

Wait huh?
Is that a thing in player core
God so much cool stuff falls through the cracks whenever I look at new books

[solar tendon]

head stomp got buffed to do stupefied which is fun. also buffed by the thief buff

[turbid dagger]

Okay yeah a punching thief seems very cool

[warped orbit]

lmao, kicking the shit out a caster

Gang Up also got buffed, which is pretty significant

your allies now also benefit from it, as long as you are adjacent to the enemy

[frank crystal]

Does head stomp do damage actually?

[turbid dagger]

It does
I had the same confusion at first but its a metastrike that bolts effects onto an existing unarmed attack

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[turbid dagger]

Its got some weird wording, probably an edit pass failure
Near every other metastrike uses, well
Strike in its rules text
It uses 'melee attack'

[frank crystal]

Yah that’s

Weird

[solar tendon]

horsechopper is so disappointing compared to dogslicer

[turbid dagger]

It do be a Guisarme that trades a damage die for
For
For
Versatile P 🤢

[solar tendon]

and dogslicer is just there like trading versatile s for backstabber

[frank crystal]

I’ll never understand how Paizo thinks versatile is a good enough trait for how much certain weapons trade for it

[solar tendon]

horses don't even care what damage type you do

maybe if there was like

a series of damage type feats where being able to use two lines with the same weapon is useful

[turbid dagger]

Versatile S or B can be occasionally useful, I am told
But Piercing is more often resisted than it is specifically not resisted or a weakness
(That is, there are more monsters that are resistant to piercing but not some other physical damage type than there are monsters resistant to S/B but not P, or monsters weak to P)

Notably zombies and skeletons are like
Some of the most stock RPG enemies ever
And skeletons are resistant to S/P but not B, and Zombies are weak to S
While all P gets is uhhhh
Do more damage to this one jellyfish

[frank crystal]

Fuck those jellyfish I guess

[turbid dagger]

There are seven monsters weak to piercing that I can see
Two are jellyfish
One is level 21

[frank crystal]

Yah the halberd is like

Kinda useless

[solar tendon]

tbh halberd should have trip

cause that's the closest pf2e comes to a dismount attack

or grapple I suppose

or a new trait for reposition

[frank crystal]

Anything to let it compete with the guisarme

[solar tendon]

especially cause like

guisarme's traits synergise so they're more than the sum of their parts

[frank crystal]

Yah trip is already amazing as a trait

But reach just makes it so much better

[solar tendon]

yeah I meant to say 'even more' for more emphasis haha

[warped orbit]

Blunt and Slashing are the significant types, yes

Blunt because its less resisted, slashing because it has some weaknesses

[turbid dagger]

To be clear, I meant two jellyfish, and a third, seperate, level 21 enemy
I distinguish the jellies from the rest because they are only going to appear in the Mythical Underwater Game

[frank crystal]

Ahhhh

[solar tendon]

mythical underwater game already incentivises piercing I think

[frank crystal]

also yah wait they’re not even special jellyfish that can appear on land?

[solar tendon]

at least for ranged combat?

[frank crystal]

They’re underwater only jellyfish?

[turbid dagger]

A level 21 jelly would be cool tho

Okay wait the Skrik Nettle, one of the two jellyfish, is in fact a flying jellyfish, my bad

[solar tendon]

yeah there's a penalty to making bludgeoning and slahsing attacks underwater unless you take a level 1 skill feat

[turbid dagger]

The giant jelly is water only tho

[frank crystal]

Oh you can at least fight them on land then

[turbid dagger]

And they're both weak to slashing also 😂

[solar tendon]

clearly you just play a desert campaign

convince everyone piercing damage is useless

[turbid dagger]

But yes this is all to say
Versatile P is not often desirable, and it is NOT worth a die step

[solar tendon]

then bam. final boss is underwater and it's a jellyfish with no warning

[frank crystal]

Honestly I kinda hate the greatsword in this game just because it’s kinda boring

When like, I like making characters with greatswords

I just wish it had a trait other then versatile P

[warped orbit]

Or if you have a swim speed

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, the Bastard Sword kind of winds up being Cooler Greatsword
Cuz it gets the hand interplay and is functionally identical even if you always two hand it

[frank crystal]

Yah

Though imo, I just kinda prefer the maul for my d12 weapon characters

[warped orbit]

Maul is good

[frank crystal]

Having shove is actually nice

[solar tendon]

butcher's axe is cool

for orks

[thorny berry]

oh yeah I saw that, seems wild. Makes me wonder if swash riposte is getting some more juice with the remaster.

[frank crystal]

I think for two handed swords though, I think I just kinda prefer the falchion

[warped orbit]

Not a fan of the falchion personally

Or most forceful weapons for that matter

[frank crystal]

I mean I mostly like it for trip

[turbid dagger]

two handed axes are already my 'two handed fighter' weapon of choice in all media so I appreciate that there's some kickass ones in PF2e
I still need to do dwarf war axe duelist fighter.........
But I'm doing hobgob bastard sword fighter now so it may be too similar

[frank crystal]

Especially since like, trip and forceful actually have some synergy

You trip and suddenly you get a little extra damage on the effective only -3 attack

[frank crystal]

Also man the hook swords really feel like they could be d8 weapons

[turbid dagger]

Monk Weapon balancing is genuinely an enigma to me
Most of the time I can vaguely see the angle being pushed but with them they just do not have any through line of logic I can spot

[frank crystal]

Yah like, they’re just worse then the basic fists monk get baseline

[turbid dagger]

Why are they all like d4 twin parry sweep trip disarm or something

[frank crystal]

Let’s not even account for the stance unarmed attacks

Imo monk should at least

Make it so all monk weapons are d6s

Like how they make their unarmed attacks

[solar tendon]

It's not really super clear to me why monks even need to be restricted in weapons

I mean with ancestral weaponry they effectively aren't right

like in terms of available dice or whatever

other than usual for agile/finesse

ik the 1e history

[frank crystal]

What’s the 1e history?

[solar tendon]

flurry of blows was a more elaborate mechanic that basically worked as alternate two weapon fighting

[frank crystal]

Ohh, so it was a long stronger for weapon monks

[solar tendon]

yeah there was an archetype for archer monks which was basically one of the strongest martials in the game iirc

[turbid dagger]

Monk weapons also got the damage due upgrade their fists got if that was higher than their base die iirc?

[frank crystal]

Oh yah mystic archer?

I do remember that from Wrath of the righteous

I remember the archer monk being very strong

[solar tendon]

oh yeah that was another thing was like rather than getting super good unarmed attacks from level 1 stance feats

your damage dice slowly upgraded over time

yeah he's that build

[frank crystal]

Yah he was a work horse in my playthrough

He was basically always in my party

[turbid dagger]

Lann of neatholm, machine running demons and approximately 50% of him looking good doing it

[solar tendon]

its the lizard part

[frank crystal]

True

His spider friend/rival honestly had the better deal

She was just all spider

Significantly less disturbing then half lizard half elf

[solar tendon]

she was like a spider cat

still a great deal

[frank crystal]

Does she really have much cat?

I mostly see spider

[solar tendon]

the eyes I think

and general fluff?

[frank crystal]

Oh true actually

[solar tendon]

could be wrong

[frank crystal]

The eyes are kinda cat like

They’re at least not spider and not human eyes

[trail nova]

Yeah, Zen Archer was a blender. Ascetic Style builds also sometimes did silly stuff

[turbid dagger]

I've been told that Wenduag looks way grosser in the original WOTR book, but every time I search 'wenduag art' I get deviantart hurt/comfort stuff that threatens to strike me blind

[trail nova]

Though some of the issue was 1e making unarmed strikes annoying to build.

[frank crystal]

I always forget wrath of the righteous was an AP before it was a game

So all the companions are just originally NPCs

[turbid dagger]

She's like
A spider monster in the AP
Not sure what the ratio of NPCs/Original is tho

I know Ember is an original

[frank crystal]

I think it’s this

Because yah

Goddamn her game design is toned down

[turbid dagger]

Funnily enough a named body in the first dungeon, the one you find Camelia next too, is actually a fairly significant NPC in the AP

[frank crystal]

She’s mostly just blue and has spider legs

[frank crystal]

Oh neat

[frank crystal]

Oh really?

[trail nova]

Handwraps came really late in the publishing cycle - the other unarmed strike enhancer took up a key slot for defense and cost double compared to weapon enhancements. And handwraps also had weirdness that made them undesirable for some builds.

[turbid dagger]

I think he basically fills the role Seelah does
As your 'woah that was crazy, we gotta get to the surface' pal
Since Seelah is an Iconic she doesn't actually appear in WOTR the AP

[frank crystal]

Makes sense

Is Carmella actually in the AP?

[turbid dagger]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/swjhee/adventure_pathgame_character_differences/

Whole thread on it

[turbid dagger]

As for this in specific: no

[frank crystal]

Oh cool

Is kinda funny that one of the few non original companions, Sosiel

Is also considered one of the most boring companions in the game though

Also Nenio

She’s great though

[turbid dagger]

Nenio is not mentioned once in this one way or the other, so I assume they just forgot
Frankly I'd be quite surprised to learn she was in the AP lmao

[sinful gyro]

I like her but no one else does

[turbid dagger]

I mostly like her
Especially come the last leg of her quest when you find out her Deal

[sinful gyro]

Ye

[frank crystal]

I think she’s fun

[sinful gyro]

Like I guess people get annoyed she's very dismissive but she's fun

[turbid dagger]

She's not just a weirdo, she's ||a hole that's trying to fill itself, with literally anything it can find||

[frank crystal]

She’s a little one note but it’s a funny note

[sinful gyro]

Yeah it's a good counter point to like

Everyone else's serious shit

We need one goofball

[frank crystal]

I mean there’s also Daeran

Who isn’t necessarily goofy but like

He’s funny in a “he’s not joking” kinda way

[turbid dagger]

Daeran/Ember/Nenio
The Chaos Comp
Then put Greybor in for contrast

[frank crystal]

He means everything he says

[sinful gyro]

Greybor is so dull

[turbid dagger]

Or Regill

[sinful gyro]

And like, his conflict is so unexplored

[turbid dagger]

Greybor has some cool bits
His central conflict is just resolved by picking one of three dialogue options in your last dialogue with him though, yes

[sinful gyro]

Tbf I don't mind that for Regill

Because he knows exactly what he wants

[turbid dagger]

Meant greybor not regill
Regill is all cool bits
And has no conflict

[sinful gyro]

And is consistent to that always

Ye

[turbid dagger]

Straight up deadass the best evil party member ever written

[sinful gyro]

Like he shouldn't have any, he thinks he's right and has 0 doubts

[frank crystal]

Regill is a bastard and should not be lawful neutral dude loves hurting people but he knows what he’s about

[turbid dagger]

His deepest fantasy is 'fuck off demon mind trick'

[turbid dagger]

He's lawful evil

[frank crystal]

Oh

I thought he was neutral

[sinful gyro]

Also the cannomically best / worst ending for him is if you play trickster which is great

[turbid dagger]

I think we may still be having greybor/regill confusion

Greybor is dwarf assassin, LN
Regill is gnome hellknight, LE

[frank crystal]

I knew regill was the hellknights

[turbid dagger]

Yeah lol
You literally save his life (negative)

[frank crystal]

I just had it in my mind he was marked as LN instead of LE

[sinful gyro]

He'd almost prefer the wound staying open then trickster ending

But now he's forced to live longer to see it :p

[turbid dagger]

But yeah I like greybor as like, a straight man
He has no weirdness too him really, he is occasionally snarky thats about it

[frank crystal]

I mean fair but also like

[thorny berry]

Regill annoyed the shit out of me because he has a passive aura where everybody around him gets 10% dumber so he can be the writer's pet smart boy

[frank crystal]

Idk he’s cool in a very

Watching a competent person work well is cool

Also I like straight men idk why

Wait

[sinful gyro]

CAUGHT

[frank crystal]

I think that may be why I thought he was LN. he’s often presented as like, kinda right

Way more then you’d expect for a hellknight who actively enjoys cruelty

[turbid dagger]

This is fair
He's very much the galaxy brain hellknight whose always right
'bleeding heart dumb NG wussies, we need to kill the wounded troops, I've run the numbers 😎 '
Me and Daeran, with like 15 channel positive energies between the party,

[thorny berry]

it sucks!!!

[rustic cape]

I don't think the game really presents Regill as always right?

[thorny berry]

but then anything to do with alignment in that game was kinda the worst

[frank crystal]

I think it’s especially bad in WOTR because like, the lawful options are so often “be an asshole for no reason”

[thorny berry]

I went azata and sucks air in through teeth

[frank crystal]

I didn’t even intend to make a CG character, I wanted to make a NG one

But I became CG because all the lawful options are so mean

[sinful gyro]

Regill is wrong outside of Regill plot scenes I think yeah

Like he'll be like 'kill them they're a demon' when it's just some guy

Or say don't trust folks who genuinely help you etc

[turbid dagger]

TRUE
I remember doing my dedicated CN run and having to just randomly insult people in dialogue whenever I got the chance
Because all the other evil dialogues are 'ARGGGGH (kill NPC, break local zones quest chain)'
And I was constantly having to keep my Good Score in check

[rustic cape]

It presents Regill as situationally right and a useful perspective but ultimately willing to defer to the Commander's judgment because he even knows he's not always right.

[turbid dagger]

Because many good dialogues are just like
Smart

[frank crystal]

Playing an evil character in WOTR means either becoming an actual legitimate FUCKING LICH

Or just being an asshole murder hobo

[rustic cape]

Regill's characterized more than anything else by will, for better and for worse.

[thorny berry]

like I was kinda hoping to sign up for 'yeah you know what, beauty and the aesthetic experience of love and living IS important and we need to remember what we're fighting for if we don't want to-'

and everything was just 'hohoho, the lollipop guild renders its aid! we shall flip a coin to decide when to attack! also sosiel is there'

though on the flip side because I feel like I'm ragging on the game a good bit here, I will say-

Areelu was a GREAT villain

[frank crystal]

Sosiel is trying his best

[thorny berry]

one of the most egregious examples of getting hit by the regill aura imo

[frank crystal]

Like what?

[thorny berry]

I'm trying to remember, there were one or two particular exchanges I have that I can probably find-

[turbid dagger]

Huh, I honestly thought part of the Azata mythic path was like
Getting folks to actually take things a little more seriously and use their heads
Like if you go full balls to the wall 'chaos!!!! XD' during the act 2 final mission doesn't like
Half your group die

[thorny berry]

It was more the fact that the azata specific group was a bunch of incredibly goofy unserious weirdos in the first place

[turbid dagger]

Yeahhhh
A bunch of Desna priests that break the rules to follow portents from their dreams: Reasonable
Gnomish Cavalry Sculptors:

[turbid dagger]

Also, I find it kind of funny that Iomedae and Galfrey kind of had their personalities swapped
With game Iomedae being a fairly like, reasonably cautious figure that comes down to ask you about your intentions and more or less accepts you continuing to use your mythic powers so long as you pick a good mythic path
And Galfrey trying to have you killed by stranding you in the abyss because she's jealous of your mythic powers
Whereas book galfrey is desperately tired of fighting Demon Hell War after a thousand years and is cautiously optimistic that you can clinch things for her
While book iomedae blasts divine trumpets into your skull hard enough to nearly kill you if you don't answer her questions when she asks them

[thorny berry]

I was kinda hyped for the legend path conceptually until it was the one that iomedae wanted lol

anyway I went gold dragon and the questline bugged out before I could finish it. Also I think a good portion of its abilities didn't actually work lmao

[craggy thunder]

Regill sounds like kind of a dick lmao

[frank crystal]

Yah ngl, I really don’t like that tbh.

Presenting Sosiel as like, naive for not wanting the order of torture knights on the crusades side is

Very dumb

Like I get it’s literal demons

But like, the hellknights aren’t just zealous against demons

In game at least, they’re all just cruel assholes

Demanding a little better of them isn’t much

[turbid dagger]

I went gold dragon too and I recall ionedaes reaction being fairly reasonable
She just kind of goes 'huh, I don't think you'll actually be a problem' and leaves

Also all I really wanted out of GD was the stat boosts, dodge AC from wings, and free no restriction feats so 😈

[thorny berry]

I was drinking that good sword saint juice by then anyway so it not working was kinda whatever (though I'm still annoyed at metamagic spells being ineligible for spellstrike in wotr??? such a weird house rule compared to tabletop)

[frank crystal]

I just wish WOTR was 2e based tbh. I just, don’t like 1e’s combat

I never finished WOTR because of it

[thorny berry]

yeah strong same

still on the edge of my seat waiting to see if they do pf2 stuff after rogue trader

[sinful gyro]

Ye it's a shame owlcat don't like 2e

I doubt it

[frank crystal]

I really hope so

Aww they don’t?

Damn

That sucks

[sinful gyro]

Iirc the devs have specifically said they dislike 2e

[thorny berry]

eh I mean it's been years since they made that original comment and I don't think it was, like, that strongly negative. The system's matured a bit since then

and more cynically 2e's grown substantially in popularity post-OGL debacle if they're looking to move copies

[craggy thunder]

I hope someone makes a 2e crpg

[thorny berry]

well, paizo is uh

[craggy thunder]

But I honestly dunno if I want Owlcat to do it

[frank crystal]

Also I do really hope Owlcat doesn’t just, try and do Baldur’s Gate 3(2). I like their style a lot

[thorny berry]

presumably quite aware of the demand for it after how the last announcements were received lol

[turbid dagger]

On that note, Dawnsbury Days, one man 2e levels 1-4 semi moddable CRPG is now available to wishlist on steam 😌

[craggy thunder]

I want Obsidian to be given a crack at it

[clever cobalt]

I.agine

[frank crystal]

The announcements for WOTR?

[clever cobalt]

Strength of Thousands Owlcat game

[thorny berry]

nah for that abomination vaults thing

[clever cobalt]

It could work

[craggy thunder]

Just let Obsidian New Vegas the Pathfinder setting

[thorny berry]

please

[frank crystal]

What was that?

[clever cobalt]

Listen I just want an excuse to play a Gnoll in an owlcat games

[craggy thunder]

I would be utterly fascinated by Obsidian making a game in the Oprak, Molthune etc area

[thorny berry]

a hack and slash kinda game I forget when it's actually releasing

[clever cobalt]

I think the Eye of Terror could make a neat Obsidian game yeah

[thorny berry]

s a m e

[frank crystal]

Ohh

[clever cobalt]

Alternatively

The Shackles

[turbid dagger]

What a fucking mess those announcements were
Pathfinder games!
they are a top down ARPG and A FUCKING VAMP SURVIVOR RIPOFFFFFFGF

[clever cobalt]

As silly as it may sound

I do kinda wish we got more lore on the Inner Sea

[frank crystal]

Huh?

[thorny berry]

I am pretty strongly on the same page yeah

though I suppose to give them some credit

[clever cobalt]

Cause a lot of the Lost Omens stuff has been more... distant I guess?

[thorny berry]

I am.... not sure who you actually find to do a competent crpg if you know owlcat's not interested it's a pretty niche genre

[craggy thunder]

Honestly I’m Obsidian pirate game’d out

[clever cobalt]

But a lot of the APs also take place in the Inner Sea or Aviatan

Which in 2e have changed but we don't know how much

For the most part at least

[frank crystal]

There’s so few CRPG companies yah

[craggy thunder]

Obsidian

[frank crystal]

Like, Larian, Owlcat, and uhh…uhhhhh

[clever cobalt]

Larian PF2e game

[frank crystal]

They make 1st person RPGs

[turbid dagger]

Obsidian

[craggy thunder]

Any companies made by former BioWare peeps?

[sinful gyro]

The people who did wasteland

[craggy thunder]

They haven’t made one since NV

[turbid dagger]

Obsidian made pillars of eternity

[thorny berry]

or you can just pick whoever and give the fuckin Dear Esther guys some gears of war veterans for your Vampire The Masquerade adaptation I'm still mad about it

[craggy thunder]

And have made five games since

[frank crystal]

They made outer worlds

[craggy thunder]

All of which are crpgs

Six games

Five of which are crpgs

XD

[clever cobalt]

https://tenor.com/view/outer-wilds-outer-worlds-beloved-outer-wilds-gif-22398682

[frank crystal]

Also yah I always forget pillars is obsidian

[craggy thunder]

Pillars and Tyranny

[turbid dagger]

tyranny also

[frank crystal]

Yah

[sinful gyro]

Dead fire

[turbid dagger]

As outright unfinished as tyranny is

[craggy thunder]

I am so sad no one talks about Tyranny

[frank crystal]

I’m glad it’s not just me who confuses them all the time

[craggy thunder]

I wish Tyranny had turn based

[turbid dagger]

Yeah this straight killed it for me
RTwP is just
Just
SOUP
to my brain

[frank crystal]

Obsidian is one of the best game companies when they finish their games

[thorny berry]

in my pettiest heart of hearts I am hoping that BG3 serves to finally put a fork in rtwp compared to turn based

[clever cobalt]

Consider: