Against the poison
#Pathfinder
surreal basin
Huh
Hey can people with natural armor like that one type of conrasu use unarmored stances
Or are they permanently armored
warped orbit
hmm, let me double check the wording on that
thorny berry
still- doing that for everything and not just mutagens without eating a level 5 item per character. If they did go in on a 'dispenser' archetype it'd be neat to overcome the, like, 'no man I am not going to holster, draw, drink, and draw just to get 1d6 healing'
turbid dagger
Oh huh, that's right
Now mind, with martial artist the earliest you can get wolf is level 4
So its one level where that may be an issue
surreal basin
Scales of the dragon works tho
From dragon disciple
So there’s a niche case I guess
turbid dagger
I love scales of the dragon 😌
barren cipher
yeah conrasu and co wear armour
solar storm
The latter I think
warped orbit
hmm, let me double check the wording on that
so Conrasu and Kashrishi are counted as being armored
barren cipher
scales of the dragon remains the winner
warped orbit
so yeah I guess they would be unable to use unarmored stances with those
frank crystal
That’s kinda annoying tbh
barren cipher
comparing wolf and stumbling, stumbling is absolutely stacked
forget the upgrade feats
rustic cape
Yeah if you’re just comparing without the upgrades Stumbling is clearly better
turbid dagger
But wolf drag is a very potent tool for a rogue, knocking people prone with no athletics check or save involved
Or extra MAP!
rustic cape
And Wolf Drag into Head Stomp is sick
turbid dagger
Actual yakuza heat action
rustic cape
And helps warm up Precise Debilitations when that comes online
barren cipher
yeah, none of those are free though
rogue feats are all great
i think i'd just do stance and done
rustic cape
For sure, if you just want to grab a strong weapon, Stumbling is king
warped orbit
Wolf gets a kit together faster, but I think once you hit like 12, Monk archetype for Stumbling is pretty good
rustic cape
The trouble is that Monk archetype requires Strength 14
barren cipher
strong weapon, free offguard, rare circumstance bonus to a decent skill action
turbid dagger
Feel free I suppose
Personally I think pursuing wolf drag is worth, even if your just talking Style Points for Head Stomp
rustic cape
And half the point of going Thief is dumping Strength XD
turbid dagger
Every so often you'll crit from flanking and 💀
warped orbit
hmmm
you could also Retrain maybe...
rustic cape
Or do human aiuvarin with multitalented
warped orbit
start out with Wolf, Retrain into Stumbling later
rustic cape
That still lets you skip ability prereqs
barren cipher
i think you would have to have had the stats at the time, no?
rustic cape
What you could do is take Martial Artist for Stumbling, Multitalented into Monk at 9, and grab Flurry at 10
turbid dagger
I can also see like
Frilled Lizardfolk Thief Rogue that goes all in on dex/cha and shreds things with its claws as being fun
Get crit spec and free ghost touch with ancestry feats
rustic cape
That gets you Stumbling Feint online at 10
turbid dagger
Oh, rogue gets crit spec by default
I always forget which martials dont, there are a few and they're weird
barren cipher
champ needs blade ally
turbid dagger
Its like
Magus and Thaum, or something?
surreal basin
A while ago I had the dumbassed idea for a druid wild order guy who turns into a bear and then uses a stance as a bear
Which turned out to only work with the black powder fist stance cause you still need to use your bear strikes
warped orbit
Champion only gets it with Blade ally IIRC
turbid dagger
Magus needs a twisting tree exclusive feat for it iirc
warped orbit
yeah they get it only for staves
barren cipher
there's uh fist magus as well
rustic cape
A while ago I had the dumbassed idea for a druid wild order guy who turns into a...
Exploding Bear Claw? XD
warped orbit
Investigator doesn't get crit spec at all
surreal basin
Although tbh now when awakened animal comes out
I’m just gonna make an awakened bear monk
Considering now I just wanna play as those random ff6 enemies
turbid dagger
So that's like four martials now who either don't get it or need a very specific subclass for it
So I feel vindicated in saying 'some martials dont get it and they're weird'
warped orbit
it is kinda weird, yes
it's mostly the later classes that don't get them
Champ is just a bit of an outlier
oh wait Monk also needs a feat actually IIRC
surreal basin
It’s still really weird though yeah
turbid dagger
Yeah, brawling focus
Its not restriced to any subclass tho, though it being an early game feat tax hurts a little given monks need to take a feat to get their weapons
warped orbit
tbh, Brawling crit spec is kinda...
turbid dagger
Its a save for slowed 1, right?
turbid dagger
Oh, that reminds me
Monk question
If I get ki spells, can I use my ki spell prof to activate wands and scrolls that match the tradition
Like, if I get ki strike and decide my tradition will be occult
Can I use a wand of heroism
frank crystal
Yes
warped orbit
Looks lovingly at flail
well flail and hammer also got nerfed now
solar storm
PATH LOST
thorny berry
another devastating blow to gnomish orphanages
warped orbit
Flail is a Ref save, Hammer a Fort save
surreal basin
Okay so flails officially better than hammers
frank crystal
another devastating blow to gnomish orphanages
After the rules to the world were changed, suddenly gnomish communities were extremely vulnerable to goblin invasions
Without their strongest tool to defend themselves
solar storm
That’s ok goblin culture has been moving away from “malicious raiding” to “silly little guys” in recent years
paper inlet
Oh, the automaton discussion ended
frank crystal
That’s ok goblin culture has been moving away from “malicious raiding” to “silly...
But you haven’t accounted for the hobgoblin holdouts
thorny berry
That’s ok goblin culture has been moving away from “malicious raiding” to “silly...
can goblins hold still to allow themselves to get critted for Roll With It 🤔
solar storm
Let me check
thorny berry
oh wait it doesn't require a crit nevermind
just a regular hit
just ask your backline sorcerer to slap your shit
tactical deployment
solar storm
Yes but in a weird way
eager mountain
another devastating blow to gnomish orphanages
frank crystal
Hmm, I think I’m going to run a
Very high level one shot soon
Like, level 16 I’m thinking
The highest level game I’ve run is level 9
So I feel like I wanna run something actually high level
eager mountain
mostly posting for the info on the foundry info
and why it didnt come out today
kind oracle
why is reddit like this
surreal basin
https://vxtwitter.com/DanTalksGames/status/1724983826844418521?s=20
EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE IT WOULDNT BE GASLIGHTING
IT WOULD JUST BE LYING
GAH
barren cipher
pf2 reddit is pretty cursed
surreal basin
Unrelated, 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through the tournament arc of my game
They just beat the enemy party and smashed an ifrit noble
barren cipher
the discord is also pretty cursed but reddit seems like an unending wellspring of bad takes
surreal basin
They’re about to fight two ice Yai twins, and then a reflavored crucidaemon and then the champion, a modified vildvarvn
surreal basin
the discord is also pretty cursed but reddit seems like an unending wellspring o...
Is it?
It seemed okay to me
The discord I mean
barren cipher
it isn't nearly as well moderated and people have no discipline
turbid dagger
The server culture is like
Vaguely something I don't like
It feels mean to say 'annoying'
There aren't Nazis or anything
Yeah that's what I'd say, no discipline
People just Post Whatever
Sometimes incessantly
eager mountain
pf2 reddit is pretty cursed
i mean theres a reason they moved
barren cipher
so discussions get derailed by people posting their political manifestos
eager mountain
https://f.starstone.gg/ now they do starstone
turbid dagger
I just went on the PF2e discord and saw a 'bard horny haha!!' post that made me want to claw my eyes out so I'm glad I wasn't judging them unfairly
surreal basin
I think I wanna change up the vildarvn
Probably remove bloodbird cause good lord
Make them more mobility focused
eager mountain
I just went on the PF2e discord and saw a 'bard horny haha!!' post that made me ...
ive not had a bad experience with the p2e reddit discord
that bad atleast
im banned from the starfinder discord tho ..... but that was years ago
barren cipher
if there's one thing i appreciate about pf2 bards it's that they have a niche outside of being horny
turbid dagger
Yeahhh, it feels mean to like, talk bad on them
They're vibing over there
But its not a place I feel at home talking in like here
barren cipher
pf2 bards are a bit scary
eager mountain
whys that ?
turbid dagger
if there's one thing i appreciate about pf2 bards it's that they have a niche ou...
And yes, I love PF2e bard
Marshal Warrior Muse letting me inch ever so closer to playing Warlord
barren cipher
they don't have a toolkit to seduce the dragon or whatever, they do have the toolkit to channel horrifying occult power to make the dragon feel as weak as a kitten while the heavily buffed martials beat the stuffing out of it
turbid dagger
Probably remove bloodbird cause good lord
Also wow Vilderavns seem like Tough Fucking Customers
Very sad that they're 1 level short of being summonable with 10th level summon fey
surreal basin
Mhm
I’m trying to make this one slightly less tough but more like
Bloodborne aggressive
turbid dagger
Maybe makes its AoO include a No Escape-style stride?
surreal basin
Mmm that’d be cool
turbid dagger
My only other thought is that Catfolk's Elude Trouble made me feel very cool and bloodborne-y during a PVP tournament I was in a while ago
Which for reference is 'if a target misses you, Stride as a reaction, ignoring reactions from whoever missed you'
barren cipher
riposte is a good punish for people who try to keep striking when it's no longer their turn
turbid dagger
Combine them 👁️
Reaction that procs of failed or crit failed strike
On a fail, the fasteravn strides
On a crit fail, fasteravn strides then strikes
surreal basin
Ooo I like this
eager mountain
so I was reading in the travel guide
and appearently , all magic in pathfinder forms runes around your hands or stuff like that
even sorcerers
and druids
and thats appearently how you identify magic
solar storm
Yeah
solar tendon
alchemical items being buyable seperately is basically just scrolls that anyone can use
surreal basin
Me, letting anybody use scrolls: hahah yeah
No that’s not true
I let anybody use wands
solar tendon
lmao fair
solar tendon
alchemist is kinda like ranger in being a hard class to design because 1e alchemist was basically just 'you can play witcher now'
(like how ranger was just 'you can play Aragorn now' )
paper juniper
class identity being hard to find never made sense to me
more, it only made sense if
you were being pressed for time
true delta
I take it this is official errata (or 1 error?) about the Pathfinder 2e remaster?
eager mountain
yeah
true delta
Oh god, I forgpt where I am again
Like when I recommended Lancer
Thanks for the info!
echo briar
I can't believe they got rid of arcane cascade in the latest errata.
Arcade cascade sounds cool, but seems too high tech for pathfinder
should be great for starfinder though.
wary yoke
I can't believe they got rid of arcane cascade in the latest errata.
... The Magus ability?
echo briar
Yea. This is the new version
wary yoke
That's... Bizarre
warped orbit
Magus confirmed Gamer
wary yoke
Oh, I misunderstood you, I thought it was just removed
And I was thinking "but isn't that how the Magus is supposed to work?"
warped orbit
Yeah Cascade is basically unchanged, except they fixed the wording
wary yoke
Have they confirmed that it's not just a typo?
warped orbit
It is just a typo
turbid dagger
Its just a typo yeah
barren cipher
either they did not qa this errata release or the initial state was so disastrous that their editor died of despair halfway through
turbid dagger
I admit I didn't notice it until just now
charred patrol
really, the arcade spell list has the same problem as the elemental spell list, in that they're just going to keep printing new spells that feel like they should fit, but aren't going to give guidance on whether or not to add them to a spell list that's already in print
...actually, I'm not sure if that sounded intentionally wrong enough, joke canceled.
worthy stump
the arcade spell list is only good for taking people's money, it's a real shame 😔
thorny berry
How about 'I liked arcade better back in the nineties'
solar storm
really, the arcade spell list has the same problem as the elemental spell list, ...
I'm confused - wouldn't they just be new arcane spells?
turbid dagger
I'm confused - wouldn't they just be new arcane spells?
They're making a joke about arcane cascade having a typo that makes it read 'arcade cascade'
And thus talking about a facetious Arcade school of magic
solar storm
ah
surreal basin
Yay I got the remaster!
Man cleric got a real stealth buff huh
Not the skill as in the devs didn’t highlight how much stuff they got
worthy stump
yeah, cleric has a whole lotta good stuff now
turbid dagger
Any highlights?
warped orbit
Warpriest gets scaling heavy similar to Sentinel
Channel Smite is better now I believe?
Turn Undead is much better
rustic cape
And of course no more Cha required for healing font
turbid dagger
Harming Hands is a thing now
There's a monk joke here somewhere but I am too tired to word it properly
unborn rain
Harming Hands is a thing now
I thought there was a whole class and an archetype about that already
turbid dagger
More seriously, nethys lists it as being from the original CRB
turbid dagger
Its fine no one plays harm font cleric anyway
rustic cape
4
worthy stump
4 and it scales with level too
goes up to 5 slots at level 5, and 6 slots at level 15
but yeah, there's some real cool cleric feats now. like one that lets you add your sanctification type to your heal/harm spells to damage creatures with the opposing holy/unholy trait. raise symbol combined with emblazon armaments on a shield lets you get a +2 to all saving throws when you raise a shield on top of the other benefits. and channeling block lets you expend a harm or heal spell when you shield block, and increase the shield's hardness by 1d8 per spell rank
warped orbit
what's the number on fonts now btw?
it's as if you had maxed Cha before
but for free now
light gyro
jeez that's a lot
and this comes next to shield runes so tank clerics are gonna be DISGUSTING
barren cipher
it's a bit less hp efficient than healing spells
but that's like
on reaction, isn't it
light gyro
it'd have to be a free action on shield block i think?
worthy stump
yeah. it's on par with a 1 action heal of that level, but it's part of a reaction
so it's not resource efficient, but it is action efficient. and it'll save you and your shield in a pinch
barren cipher
sparkling targe magi, shield ally champions resigning in disgust
worthy stump
warpriest cleric with that feat, archetyped into champion to pick up shield ally. your shield is now impenetrable
light gyro
convince your gm to let you take free archetype bastion 
clever cobalt
Huh, didn't know the Pathfinder Society had a lodge in Razmir
Much less that the Venture Captain is a Razmiran Priest
turbid dagger
Thank heavens........................
surreal basin
Yeah as someone who has had an entire party fail to recall knowledge on a hydra before
Good change
turbid dagger
Now I'm semi tempted to not just completely ignore the mechanic
unborn rain
Did they make into a real mechanic instead of just a 'the DM gives you an amount of information' with zero clarification on how much or how little
worthy stump
it's much better codified now, yeah
turbid dagger
Do we know when remaster stuff is hitting Nethys and Foundry?
(And is the answer 'its already happened, I'm just blind')
unborn rain
Huh, didn't know the Pathfinder Society had a lodge in Razmir
Didn't know about Razmir but read his wiki. Weird dude
surreal basin
At the end of the month and the week respectively
turbid dagger
Nice
For that level 1 oneshot one of my players is considering remaster witch, an ice patron apparently
worthy stump
the foundy update's already out, actually
turbid dagger
Oh sweet
light gyro
iirc new recall knowledge also mentions 'lowest save' as a valid question which is just Always Good™️
unborn rain
Pathbuilder people are saying they should have the remaster up and running at some point next month
rustic cape
Nice
For that level 1 oneshot one of my players is considering remaster witch, a...
NuWitch is extremely cool
vocal wave
Is pf2e good for an epic 6 campaign? My group is about to finish with a 3 year old 5e campaign, PCs are lvl 16 and the marvel superheroes power levels are burning me out lmao
I want to play something lower fantasy, lower stakes kind of thing
And I don't want to play Warhammer fantasy
turbid dagger
I'm not sure what exactly epic entails, especially in combination with 'lower fantasy lower stakes'
I know that PF2e is gonna have mythic rules in the next big book
vocal wave
Epic 6 as in PCs won't level past lvl 6
Instead you give them boons and cooler items
Maybe the sweet spot for pf is another lvl
worthy stump
My instinct is to say 2e isn’t a good fit for that by default, but I’m not sure. Maybe someone’s cooked up something that works
turbid dagger
Hhhhhhhuhhh
I Suppose You Could Do That In PF2e
I've never given it any thought
vocal wave
Haven't played it tbh
In dnd lvl 6 stops PCs from getting access to the world warping spells
You keep a nice level of fantasy without having to deal with constant teleportation and magical planes
turbid dagger
There are 1-11 APs that scratch the whole 'small time heroics' angle pretty well
I will say that PF2e doesn't get quite as crazy as D&D afaik
A level 20 wizard isn't going to be laying waste to countries, they can just do a big explosion
echo briar
You keep a nice level of fantasy without having to deal with constant teleportat...
Almost all of those are uncommon or rare
vocal wave
Which you can still do, but not by simply spending spell slots and then going back to sleep
turbid dagger
And most of the spells that heavily distort the fiction like plane shift are, yeah, rare
Which is explicitly 'your GM can choose to ban this, you can't be mad'
echo briar
so you the GM must allow them for the players to learn them
heavy fulcrum
youd probably be better served in finding a game which conforms to that concept better than trying to find a game to fudge it into
vocal wave
youd probably be better served in finding a game which conforms to that concept ...
I mean I don't want to change the system, just limit the power lvl
I can do it in dnd no problem, I just want to change systems for a bit
turbid dagger
a 1-11 game fits that pretty well imo
wary yoke
I've always balked at epic 6 with Pathfinder 1E because I love playing the Gish classes, and level 7 is where the fun stuff starts
turbid dagger
It depends on the class but imo most classes reach the peak of their Juice at the 8-12 range
wary yoke
Like, for Magus, level 7 is when they get 3rd level spells and medium armor
My favorite time playing a Magus was the time I played a retirement scenario with my PFS magus
barren cipher
Pathbuilder people are saying they should have the remaster up and running at so...
isn’t pathbuilder remaster live now?
wary yoke
Flying around in plate armor, polymorphing into the fun monsters, and just casually having teleport
carmine egret
So like, playing a PF2 game that's capped at a specific level isn't an issue, it's the boon part that might take some finagling if anything
however you might wanna just review the system because it's possible the problems that avoids in 5E are lessened or absent here
surreal basin
YEAH BABY
YOU STILL NEED TO MAKE A DC5 ATHLETICS CHECK TO CLIMB A LADDER
Oh also I named my custom campaign’s ‘books’ so far
Book 1: Chains Forged of Gold
Book 2: The New Pact
Book 3: Memories Lost in Sand
Book 4: Defiers of Fate <
Book 5: Shatter the Hourglass
Book 6: Doom Upon All The World
I’m a very dramatic bitch
turbid dagger
A comparatively minor issue but
Your saying climbing a tree is as easy as climbing a ladder
surreal basin
Worth low branches
*with
A typical tree is as easy as climbing a rope
Which like
Idk if that’s true
turbid dagger
I'd take A Fucking Ladder over almost any tree I can think of
clever cobalt
Is it as easy to chuck wood if you were a woodchuck and could chuck wood,
solar tendon
the type of trees it's talking about are just naturally occuring ladders/stepstools
echo briar
I think all of you are missing that a steep slope is as hard as a low branched tree
solar tendon
if anything it's underestimating the difficulty of climbing a ladder tbh
or rather it's assuming best case scenario ladder?
warped orbit
this is also assuming climbing a ladder in some kind of stressful situation presumably
solar tendon
thought abt it and killed my darlings a lil bit
so now thinking construct inventor/unexpected sharpshooter
for my Donguni Clockfighter for Outlaws of Alkenstar
carmine egret
oh that sounds fun
solar tendon
everyone expects the giant ogress automaton to be the big threat not the skittish dwarf who probably doesn't even know how to use their clan pistol
risky reload at level 4 for action economy which also just kinda feels inventor-y
carmine egret
it'd be cool if you could have a construct as your spotter heh
solar tendon
it wouuuld
clever cobalt
How big of a rework is the cleric?
craggy thunder
Man I wanna play my peacock beastkin swashbuckler so bad
frank crystal
I just realized something
With Minotaur and Centaur coming soon
The Mammoth bow will actually be usable by PCs
Without enlarge shenanigans
solar storm
So I'm in an interesting situation now
I'm running Abomination Vaults and have a wood kineticist
So how could a wood kineticist work with the local lumber based economy?
It's not something I want to deny, I just think its neat
turbid dagger
So how could a wood kineticist work with the local lumber based economy?
Maybe let them use it for Earn Income? With some kind of circumstance bonus/letting them use something tied to their class rather than a skill
solar storm
That'd probably make sense
I'm more interested in like, specific things they could do since I'm not entirely certain of the limits of base kinesis and such
Can they just make whole trees to log?
Are they a one-automaton logging supply person?
(I don't think so but that's the high end)
turbid dagger
I think they'd need extended kinesis to make whole trees or shape trees into logs
heavy fulcrum
base kinesis can only affect Light or Negligible Bulk at a time (per 2 actions)
turbid dagger
Proliferate to make a small amount of wood into a tree, was my thinking
heavy fulcrum
which is like, a branch
yeah some of the stronger abilities can definitely make more stuff
turbid dagger
Nevermind that one impulse thats protector tree but its just a normal tree when it expires
.......using suppress to destroy thin slices of a tree to effortlessly render it down into logs?
heavy fulcrum
and its level 1 as well!
(and protecter tree has the same "it leaves a normal tree behind" effect)
though a medium tree is actually fairly small
not really suitable for lumber
(because its not a 5 foot wide tree, its a tree that somewhat fills a five foot square)
turbid dagger
But yeah if you are inclined to rule that suppress lets you chop up trees timber sentinel could give you an infinite amount of like, firewood effortlessly
Lumber for building is more complex yeah
heavy fulcrum
yeah
the funniest thing a Level 1 Wood Kineticist can do is solve world hunger
1 action, produce a magical fruit for one creature close to you
though, this probably doesnt actually count as "a meal" for most purposes
turbid dagger
Whats the thing that keeps you from making infinite gold as a metal kineticist again
I know base kinesis keeps you from replicating 'durable crafted goods' like coins but if you found a gold vein there must be a safeguard to keep you from just Proliferating it
Or just Generate
heavy fulcrum
in which case you ahve to wait until 6th for https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4287
silver geyser
Whats the thing that keeps you from making infinite gold as a metal kineticist a...
Abadar gets angy.
heavy fulcrum
Precious Materials: Elements you create (using Base Kinesis to generate an element, for example) must typically be ordinary materials of negligible value. You can't create precious or valuable materials like silver, gemstones, or duskwood unless otherwise noted.
turbid dagger
Abadar Can Blow It Up His Ass
Ah there it is
Knew I recalled something like that
heavy fulcrum
you explicitly can't make gold unless an ability says otherwise
no Godbound Word of Wealth here
because Paizo is cowards
turbid dagger
I feel like just letting them Earn Income by generating stuff would be fine
Fun, even
silver geyser
Abadar even frowns on people going to the Elemental Plane of Earth to get gems and stuff.
heavy fulcrum
(btw, the Word of Wealth is hilarious because its default ability, in PF2 terms, is "you start every scene with 1000 GP")
solar storm
I think they'd need extended kinesis to make whole trees or shape trees into log...
Luckily, they do haha
I was thinking about Timber Sentinel but I think it'd only be useful for rapid replanting
Since the tree it makes is size medium and small enough to not take up a space on the map
turbid dagger
Good for them! Though as noted in the convo since, Suppressions ability to destroy matter seems like it could be used to cut logs too, and either way they'll have some trouble making trees larger than Medium
silver geyser
Hey, rapid replanting is worth money still.
solar storm
Yeah for sure
turbid dagger
They could make a bussiness selling kindling, I suppose!
solar storm
.......using suppress to destroy thin slices of a tree to effortlessly render it...
Oh this is an interesting thought
silver geyser
Medium trees are still probably good for chairs and smaller woodworking.
turbid dagger
Blitz down a tenth of the forest just tapping each tree to make it fall over, plant a bunch of little trees to replace them
Bankrupt lumberjacks for the next several years
solar storm
That's gonna make you VERY unpopular in Otari haha
silver geyser
See
Now I have an idea for a Hobgoblin Kineticist.
Because that'd get the Ironfangs to go "Cool, love it, keep it up."
solar storm
I actually find wood kineticist really interesting because it gives an extremely nature-oriented character who isn't necessarily Druid-y
So that kind of "I can generate trees forever and have no regard for natural balance" is easier to pull off
turbid dagger
Yeah
Its weird because the plane of wood like
Is practically an antithesis to druidic thought
Its nature compressed into pretty little logical shapes
Everything is neat and orderly and clean
solar storm
The elemental planes are all pretty alien to universal balance or morality like that I think
silver geyser
You ever want to make a druid mad, tell them that they worship a perversion of true nature created by Lamashtu.
solar storm
But yeah its an interesting thing because they're not "natural" they just look like it
silver geyser
Because animals explicitly started acting differently after Lamashtu killed the previous god of wild animals.
thorny berry
`Precious Materials: Elements you create (using Base Kinesis to generate an elem...
but does this fluctuate with local market conditions
does it imply capitalism is a core, measurable part of the universe...
silver geyser
Abadar is a God.
thorny berry
got me there
turbid dagger
The elemental planes are all pretty alien to universal balance or morality like ...
I dunno, earth and fire and water in their natural state aren't really alive, they don't grow
I mean uh
Fire does after a fashion
But wood is the only one where the nature of the material in question is really being defied, I'd say
craggy thunder
The Mammoth bow will actually be usable by PCs
I wish there was a more normal greatbow type weapon
I wanna build a knight character with a giant bow
barren cipher
on the one hand earn income isn't exactly earthshaking and mucking around with it won't break anything, on the other hand i would be reluctant to let people earn income off class features or obtain bonuses on behalf of the people who have invested in appropriate skills
turbid dagger
I wish there was a more normal greatbow type weapon
In pre-release I was really hoping the Phalanx Piercer would be this, but unfortunately uh
ITS LOADING 1
warped orbit
Yeah it's really sad
turbid dagger
The Mammoth bow will actually be usable by PCs
Also this is a neat weapon, thank you for notifying me of it
Too bad unique magic weapons can't take property runes, because iirc you can just slap Thundering Forceful on a normal +2 bow to get more or less this things effect
frank crystal
In pre-release I was really hoping the Phalanx Piercer would be this, but unfort...
It’s wild how the Phalanx Piercer
An advanced weapon
Is arguably worse then the composite Longbow
A martial weapon
unborn rain
Concussive's pretty good, but like reload 0 is just so useful
frank crystal
If a weapon has reload 1 and isn’t a firearm or crossbow it better do a whole lot to make up for it
turbid dagger
Is arguably worse then the composite Longbow
Yeah its like a sidegrade at best
Razing basically isnt a trait
frank crystal
It’s only useful for enemies shields
solar tendon
I mean with the crossbow ace trait changes especially the phalanx piercer is a decent amount better than a crossbow
unborn rain
Looking at weapons with reload zero, wowwy is the Daikyu bad
solar tendon
propulsive and d10 damage
frank crystal
I mean that feats is already different
And I’m not sure even works for it
Because crossbow is a specific weapon type now
And not just bows with reload 1
solar tendon
like the problem is the balance between bows and every other option
turbid dagger
And yeah if it actually plugged into reload feats it may be cool but i believe they nearly all specify crossbows or guns
solar tendon
that's my point. the phalanx piecer not benefitting from crossbow ace is even less relevant now that it's less of the crossbow damage source
reload 0 and hands 1+ is just. silly in terms of giving a reason to use anything else unfortunately
trail nova
I do think that Reload 1 is somewhat undervalued, even with reload feats.
There's a lot of stuff that it locks you out of.
turbid dagger
reload 0 and hands 1+ is just. silly in terms of giving a reason to use anything...
I hear that a lot and dont REALKY agree
I think guns and martial+ crossbows like the sukgung are fine, esp. on classed that have reload synergy
Im not wanting to throw out a lot of -5 map bow shots anyhow so less attacks per round us fine by me
I do feel guns would not go remiss with hands 1+ tho
turbid dagger
You only need a hand to stabilize the gun while firing really
frank crystal
I’m gonna be entirely honest, I don’t understand the benefit of hands 1+
solar tendon
like idk a lot of pathfinder is like "oh it's this way for balance"
frank crystal
Because don’t you still need 2 of them to shoot the bow?
turbid dagger
I’m gonna be entirely honest, I don’t understand the benefit of hands 1+
Lets you do stuff like drink potions, use healers tools, bucklers, maybe spells
trail nova
I’m gonna be entirely honest, I don’t understand the benefit of hands 1+
Doors. Athletics. Casting.
solar tendon
or fuckin bayonets
frank crystal
Yah but I thought you still need a free hand to use the thing
solar tendon
only when you want to shoot it
and dropping is free
whereas a normal two handed weapon requires an action to let go before using potions etc
and then an action to grip again
trail nova
whereas a normal two handed weapon requires an action to let go before using pot...
Uhh, you don't need an action to let go. But you do to grip it again, which bows don't need
turbid dagger
You only need two hands for the duration ofbthe strike action, and you automatically use the free hand for the strike
frank crystal
Ah IC
turbid dagger
Im planning on doing multiclass swash for my monastic archer monk, so i get essentially a full shield i can raise at the end of my turn after naking my bow shots
(Using the buckler expertise feat i mean)
worthy stump
paizo has always loved bows, ever since 1e. they get all the good stuff...
turbid dagger
There's an entire gun class
solar storm
bowslinger w h e n paizo??
echo briar
I just can't belive the class with sling in its name can't use slings
barren cipher
shortbow and battle medicine/doctor’s visitation is a classic
unborn rain
1e pathfinder definetly loves bows, I think they're pretty normal in 2e
solar tendon
I think really everything is pretty normal in 2e
so we have to get worked up about smaller shit 😔
barren cipher
homebrew +1 to hit? busted forever, how dare you
turbid dagger
Indeed
People are out here getting in knife fights over like
Swashbuckler needing skill actions to do their bonus damage or some shit
frank crystal
homebrew +1 to hit? busted forever, how dare you
It is honestly funny though with how strong just a +1 to hit really is though
solar storm
so we have to get worked up about smaller shit 😔
Honestly its so funny
D&D 3.5 balance discussion is like "the cleric class can actually invalidate the fighter class just out of the phb"
frank crystal
Wait it did?
turbid dagger
AFAIK 5e does that too
Lots of casters can just swing sword as good as a martial
solar storm
And then PF2 is like, with the same intensity "the Jalmeri Heavenseeker archetype gives you 5-10 more damage than equivalent options, this is the most egregious balance deviation"
(Ok it might be 6th pillar giving an extra +2 to the unarmed attacks of full casters compared with normal progression instead)
barren cipher
i think sixth pillar was just heresy rather than being actually all that good
solar storm
yeah I think that's true
barren cipher
although i didn’t look too much into the abuse cases
frank crystal
What’s sixth pillar?
barren cipher
dragon disciple was knackered for a bit too
barren cipher
it was a hybrid punch/caster archetype that gave casters access to expert unarmed (and martials access to expert casting, which they already had)
solar storm
Unarmed magic user kind of thing
frank crystal
Oh huh
solar storm
Wait it did?
But also yes, Cleric had such strong buff spells that they could more than make up for their fewer bonus feats and worse bab and just do fighter as well as fighter while also having all the utility of the cleric spell list on top of that
solar storm
CoDzilla was a sort of meta because Cleric and Druid were just that strong
solar tendon
fighters eventually ended up pretty neat in pf 1e
turbid dagger
Just a little bit ago we got into a talk about how medium armor prof would be unbalanced as an ancestry feat
frank crystal
Oh yah huh
worthy stump
pf 1e fighter did eventually end up in a decent spot with advanced weapon training and stuff, yeah
frank crystal
Also like, if that’s the case then a piece of homebrew I found has gotta be kinda wild
An ancestry that just
Gives you plate armor
Like I don’t even think it’s a feat it’s just a thing they have
My friend was playing one
solar tendon
on a few levels yeah. heavy armour but also dex 0 heavy armour is gated behind item level 2
(like 30 gold)
turbid dagger
Or 'ask your monk and armor inventor friends to pretty please donate their 10 gp left over'
thorny berry
i think sixth pillar was just heresy rather than being actually all that good
I'm inclined to agree
people forget that martials aren't just 'master proficiency' they're 'legendary armor/attack proficiency or master proficiency AND a central damage gimmick'
......except for, like, outwit ranger
though I've never been quite sure what to make of that one
turbid dagger
though I've never been quite sure what to make of that one
Outwit confuses me also
Permanent bonus to ac is nice but its circ so it doesnt stack with shield
So if your doing like
'Disrupt prey dueling tank' ranger it doesnt even seem good for that
You can feint and intimidate good i suppose
solar tendon
monster hunter to recall when you hunt prey
thorny berry
yeah like I guess you're 'supposed' (ugh) to use it with the monster hunter line
turbid dagger
With rge RK changes goung all in on tgat seems more appealing for sure
thorny berry
but even then that doesn't quite seem like much to hang a class off of
solar tendon
I mean it's not that different to twin takedown/hunted shot for flurry in being a mandatory feat
don't really think monster warden justifies requires another feat though
barren cipher
the shared bonuses can be quite nice but i could never see the appeal when you can just, you know
kill them
solar tendon
it also allows you to face! hunt prey is not just in combat haha
thorny berry
the shared bonuses can be quite nice but i could never see the appeal when you c...
or at that point if you wanna go that hard in on support just Be A Caster or something
solar tendon
you can hunt prey from tracks n all
turbid dagger
Vocally designate the mayor as 'your prey', asked to leave the charity dinner
solar tendon
if you can see him you can
thorny berry
wonder if that one gets fucked with in the remaster
solar tendon
don't think it did
thorny berry
oh right I thought it was in apg for some reason
....I feel like I almost never see ranger mentioned at all
warped orbit
social Outwit is pretty funny, but also not that broadly applicable
solar tendon
how so
thorny berry
well I mean it's a mostly non-cha class
so it's probably more playing catchup with others than excelling at it
could probably do dex -> cha -> con
turbid dagger
Its an odd little class for sure, ranger
One of its subclasses just deadass being More Damage is funny
solar tendon
I mean if you're playing outwit that's the choice you have to make yknow
feel like it shines late game a lot more
cause you eventually get rk anything with nature and the +4 from the 17th level upgrade which is crazy
turbid dagger
Yeah, stuff like the nature rk and double prey is cool
And animal companion precision is A Lot Of Fucking Damage at early levels and remains notable pretty much forever
carmine egret
Face Ranger is a concept I liked ever since I was introduced to it
Fits a Gentleman Hunter type
turbid dagger
Woth Natural Medicine, Nature RK, share prey, you can be a really kickass support martial
silver geyser
As an ardent Warlord fan, Support Martial fills a hole in my heart
fast hill
I need two third level spells...
solar jacinth
Does Paizo call their new book Pathfinder 2 remaster or is it still Pathfinder 2?
fast hill
I just got to level 5 and wow I have no idea what to take
solar tendon
whatchu playin
solar jacinth
Oh wow. Okay, thanks for clearing that up. I've got a copy of the original, so is it a good idea to get a new copy with the refinements?
solar tendon
up to you really. as ever it'll be on archives of nethys
my understanding is it doesn't have an awful lot of new content, and in fact that gm core doesn't reprint everything from crb+gmg
solar jacinth
Oh nice!
solar tendon
but it kinda depends how much you appreciate physical copies I guess ^^
game is still certainly playable from the orginal crb
rustic cape
Haste is a really good supportive pickup
eager mountain
just a new version of crb, apg, gmg and bestiary basically
monster core isnt out till next year sadly
paper inlet
I got my tiefling from the campaign I am currently playing in :>
(dunno if this is good channel for it or I should fuck off to somewhere else
limber comet
worthy stump
the giantdad drip...
paper inlet
the giantdad drip...
Only like 2/5 of the people seeing this correctly guessed which pose I sent to the artist.
And you're correct <3
worthy stump
well? what is it?
turbid dagger
That does sound fun
Regalia/Weapon hours
I like warrior bard marshal for that too
craggy thunder
That does sound fun
Regalia/Weapon hours
I like warrior bard marshal for that to...
Exactly the implements lmao
scenic patio
As someone who only played small one shots for Pathfinder 2ed, is the remaster worth it are the changes significant enough to get the official PDFs?
clever cobalt
What's the easiest oneshot to run that isn't the Beginner's Box?
scenic patio
The fall of plauge stone
worthy stump
i hear that Troubles in Otari is a good one (although not technically a one-shot, it seems)
eager mountain
The fall of plauge stone
barren cipher
fistful of flowers looked pretty straightforward to my recollection
all of the free rpg day adventures really
barren cipher
As someone who only played small one shots for Pathfinder 2ed, is the remaster w...
to me it depends on how and how much you use your books, i don’t really feel the need for anything more than archives of nethys
worthy stump
oh yeah, the free rpg day adventures do look really nifty. they seemed short and fun, if a bit out there
craggy thunder
So is Kineticist p much a bender?
I can recognize this is a dumb question I just need to know if that's like
The right mental framework from which to create a character with the class
frank crystal
You mean like, flavor wise?
Because flavor wise yes but with one major difference
They less manipulate the elements around them and instead they create the elements they’re manipulating
craggy thunder
I mean is a fire kineticist's main thing slinging fire blasts at people
frank crystal
Like an earth kineticist has a literal portal to the elemental plane of earth
That they pull earth out of to do their stuff
frank crystal
Oh they always can to a certain amount
But I’m saying they don’t need it to do their blasts and impulses
If you’re playing an earth kineticist and you’re on a ship
You can still do kineticist stuff
Even if the ship is made of wood
barren cipher
i don’t think you get a boost for being in a burning building or anything
craggy thunder
I mean you don't numbers-wise
barren cipher
unless there’s some niche feat
craggy thunder
But now your enemies are in a burning building
This is also a dumb question
Has anyone made a kineticist/monk?
Or would one be better served just skipping the middleman and going kineticist/sixth pillar
warped orbit
unarmed works decently for Kinet
not sure if Sixth Pillar actually works
since impulses aren't spells
frank crystal
Yah, though they aren’t strikes either
So you can actually use them while in most stances
craggy thunder
Oh that's
Fuckin hilarious
lmao
And of course because I'm a weapon monk nerd I'm immediately thinking of a peacock stance fire kineticist
warped orbit
impulses are in a bit of a strange spot where they don't really interact with most things
craggy thunder
"I stab people, shoot fire, simple as"
barren cipher
i don’t know if the value is particularly there
sinful gyro
Like they can be counter spelled I think
craggy thunder
It's probably not there for peacock stance
barren cipher
i think a lot of kineticist stuff is stance
warped orbit
they count as spells only for stuff that prevents spellcasting
so you can't use impulses in an antimagic field
craggy thunder
Man
barren cipher
all the kinetic aura stuff you’d be locked out of and my recollection is that it’s pretty good
craggy thunder
peafowl stance makes me sad
thorny berry
Has anyone made a kineticist/monk?
limited to no synergy, unfortunately. Kineticists essentially play like casters that use their class dc instead of spell dc, regular attack proficiency for them is p bad
craggy thunder
Fs in the chat
craggy thunder
YEEEEEEE FUCKIN SEISMIC SENSE
thorny berry
like you could maybe do the gish kinda thing of sneaking in the occasional cheeky third action strike IF you build around it but kineticists generally have Stuff To Do with their actions
also for unarmed in particular you conflict with kineticist having some baller stances
craggy thunder
So do Kineticists straight up roll Con to hit with their blasts?
thorny berry
yup
barren cipher
yeah
craggy thunder
Fuckin holy shit lmao
silver geyser
You are Made of HP.
thorny berry
If you're willing to reflavor melee blasts as martial arts then you've got potential there
warped orbit
melee 2a blast hits pretty well, and the 1a too
craggy thunder
If you're willing to reflavor melee blasts as martial arts then you've got poten...
Well I am rotating a fun concept in my head of a hobgoblin kineticist
As a premade for this all-hobgoblin module I'm going to write set in the Plane of Earth
And the idea was she has the like
Dai-Li fists
This is a shitty gif of them hold on
thorny berry
yeah that seems like a reasonable way to flavor earth blasts
and then there's this later https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4227
warped orbit
yeah you can do that with blasts pretty easy, especially if you got Weapon Infusion
Earth has some pretty solid impulses
also gets you access to heavy armor
craggy thunder
If I have what?
warped orbit
oh it's a class feat for Kinet
basically it lets you tag on weapon traits onto your blasts
craggy thunder
Great googily fuckin moogily
warped orbit
especially useful for the ranged version, because you can make them thrown 20ft
silver geyser
One of many fun things you can do as a Kineticist.
craggy thunder
I haven't looked at this class at all in case y'all couldn't tell uh
Whaaaaat the fuck
silver geyser
And yeah, you can hit hard as a Kineticist.
warped orbit
blasts are decent as filler
craggy thunder
Could one make a more agile Earth Kineticist?
silver geyser
I'm personally a big fan of Metal
warped orbit
if you just don't pick up Armor in Earth, sure
thorny berry
Could one make a more agile Earth Kineticist?
I mean nothing stopping you but it doesn't have anything benefiting it and passing up on armor in earth is probably not ~optimal~
warped orbit
its not inherently slow or anything
barren cipher
the armour impulses aren’t mandatory, i think you get light armour prof
thorny berry
I suppose you could call lava leap 'agile'
silver geyser
You do indeed.
warped orbit
Lava Leap is pretty good
thorny berry
craggy thunder
weapon/regalia thaum and a heavy armor sword & board fighter
thorny berry
I would say that mechanically wind is probably the 'agile' element
warped orbit
Air has a lot of mobility
thorny berry
could also do wind-earth
warped orbit
both for itself and allies
warped orbit
also yeah, you can easily do dual element
the main upside of single element is just that you start with your impulse junction
which varies by element in how useful it is
thorny berry
actually if you go air-earth specifically you can pick up this https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4302
silver geyser
Metal is neat in that it can proc weaknesses super easily.
thorny berry
the whole element system is a bit complicated but the tl;dr is that you can have access to more elements or more passive bonuses
craggy thunder
or you could be gaara and do metal/earth
thorny berry
so really most builds are like 'okay I want the one or two really good passive bonuses and then more elements'
or at least I haven't generally seen people getting super hype for skill junctions
and then there's a handful of unique feats available for going mono-element
warped orbit
skill junction are honestly pretty decent
thorny berry
ye I'd just say impulse/aura tend to be the big marquee features people go for
warped orbit
it's training in a skill, one skill feat, and an effectively free skill item
the impulse and aura junctions tend to be pretty good, yeah
craggy thunder
I think Air/Earth are a good idea
Can you later gain impulse feats from other elements?
warped orbit
yes
basically at 5 and every 4 levels after, you can choose to either gain a new element or an extra junction and impulse in the ones you have already
thorny berry
and you can start with one or two elements
silver geyser
Quite
warped orbit
imprecise senses mean they can only be Hidden at worst
so you will always know where creatures are at least
thorny berry
it does take up your stance slot
and kineticist has good stances
but then, it's not the sort of stance you'd need all the time
warped orbit
it does turn to precise tremor eventually IIRC, which is pretty good
craggy thunder
At 13th ye
warped orbit
but yeah somewhat specific in application
craggy thunder
seismic sense time
thorny berry
especially if you're starting with one element though you get a lot of low level feats
warped orbit
it's still good to have around at least if you do encounter invisible shit probably
warped orbit
main thing is you probably wanna grab a good offensive impulse
for Air/Earth that's probably Air Boomerang
thorny berry
think of them like your cantrips
warped orbit
for Air/Earth that's probably Air Boomerang
Tremor is also an option, but that's Overflow IIRC
craggy thunder
It is ye
warped orbit
Overflow is tricky to manage, because they basically cost an extra action from having to Channel again after
craggy thunder
Man I am having a rly hard time trying to suss out what elements this character'd use based on their vibes lol
warped orbit
in general I'd say for Kinet you want a good impulse to use almost every turn if you can at all
and ideally also a good stance to chill in
note for that first one, it doesn't have to be a damaging one
but it does help to have some good damage when necessary
blasts only go so far
turbid dagger
Man I am having a rly hard time trying to suss out what elements this character'...
If its for a oprak hobgoblin adventure earth seems a must
After that wood seems neat due to their focus on discipline, and fire because its straightforwardly useful for combat
craggy thunder
If its for a oprak hobgoblin adventure earth seems a must
After that wood seems ...
They would be an opraki hobgoblin yes
So Earth is the base element
I was actually thinking water for the opposite reason
If the party decides to play the full group of premades, there's already gonna be three very discipline-oriented characters
turbid dagger
That is true
And realistically, a kineticist would be kind of an odd duck in a society tightly focused around everyone having predetermined places in the societal order
Because Kinetic abilities are necessarily rare and unable to be planned for and built around
(Side note, an Earth/Water/Wood kineticist would be a kickass healer in a low magic group)
craggy thunder
The basic idea of the module is that something is fucking with the Stone Roads, and Opraki Geomancers (that totally aren't just Elementalist Wizards, Azaersi's inner council swears) have detected the source of the disruption is the Plane of Earth
So an investigative squadron has been formed, the Opal Waywatcher Squad
This is composed either of characters the players fully make, or of premades that I am creating
craggy thunder
(Side note, an Earth/Water/Wood kineticist would be a kickass healer in a low ma...
And in fact magic casters are highly discouraged, which is why I'm considering party balance so delicately lmao
And why I'm considering water as the kineticist's second element
The party as it is so far is a fighter, a thaum, a kineticist, and a ranger
And in all honesty probably an Alchemist cuz like
c'mon
low magic hobgoblin party
much bomba & potion
Oh my god
I am so unreasonably salty that stone brawler archetype is antisynergistic with kineticist
turbid dagger
stone brawler?
I ain't heard of that one
But yeah kineticist is in a very weird place archetype wise
Because a kineticist does not want to be doing any normal shit, and other classes do not want to be Blasting or using save Impulses
BUT
A lot of classes very much enjoy their non save impulses as self buffs
There are a lot of folks who would greatly enjoy Armor In Earth for example
craggy thunder
stone brawler?
built entirely around rock punches
But
It's a stance
Which
Pain
turbid dagger
Ohhh its a sky kings tomb thing, thats why it flew under my radar
Holy fuck stone brawler kicks ass
turbid dagger
It'd be fun with an Elemental Barbarian or something
A little sad that Stonestrike Stance has the same Kind Of Dumb prereq as mountain stance though
craggy thunder
I think it's flavorful personally
Tho definitely isn't warranted as a weakness here
Since Mountain is Stacked As Fuck
Also I have figured out my Kineticist's 'weapon'
instead of dai-li fists
It's a stalagtite they've snapped off and shaped into a staff
turbid dagger
Its cool in concept but the thing is that stance prereqs need to continue to be fulfilled or the stance ends, unless specifically noted (As is the case with arcane cascade post remaster)
So in late game where access to flying is a fairly important consideration it can be a bit painful
Less painful for stone brawler admittedly since mountain stance is also All Your Fucking AC
craggy thunder
tru
This Kineticist can be trusted as a Waywatcher Special Agent (they are going to brain you with their stone stick)
craggy thunder
Is the sukgung a common weapon???
Like it's just straight up a better hand crossbow or regular crossbow at the cost of being Martial instead of simple
But on aon it's not uncommon
thorny berry
huh I somehow missed that the sukgung was one handed
frank crystal
At most it’s paizo saying that this stuff might not fit in some campaigns
Because the stuff is canonically rare in Golarion
Or doesn’t fit the vibe
thorny berry
huh I somehow missed that the sukgung was one handed
and I genuinely thought it was fine at 2 hands with the gimmick just being the range lol
wacky
frank crystal
But Sukgung mechanically is better then the other crossbows because it’s martial and they’re not
craggy thunder
God damn
frank crystal
And martial weapons are just, better then simple weapons pretty much every time
craggy thunder
Crescent Cross is hilarious lol
Also is the Phalanx Piercer like
Fully screwed by it being Reload?
frank crystal
Yup
thorny berry
crossbows still basically just have crossbow ace and 'can use some gunslinger and some bow stuff I guess' going for them right
frank crystal
It’s very bad
craggy thunder
F
frank crystal
Crossbows are gonna be pretty changed by the remaster though
A new martial one is also coming out with it
The arbalest
thorny berry
player core or apg?
frank crystal
Idk what the stats on it are though
frank crystal
player core or apg?
Player core I think
thorny berry
oh huh
frank crystal
Because that’s where the new weapons are
warped orbit
huh I somehow missed that the sukgung was one handed
It has Fatal Aim, its one-handed like a jezail
That is to say, kind of not really
turbid dagger
It is player core
Kind of milquetoast but Solid I Suppose
d8 damage dice, backstabber
turbid dagger
Oh, so it is
That actually puts it in 'I quite like it' territory honestly
Precision Ranger can probably have a fun time with that
turbid dagger
I wish there was a 'command animal + reload' metareload on ranger but dreams will be dreams
warped orbit
That would be dope as hell
thorny berry
I wish there was a 'command animal + reload' metareload on ranger but dreams wil...
I was kinda thinking that an animal companion sniper would be pretty cool the other day
but yeah the action economy gets ehhh
surreal basin
One of my players is running companion sniper
worthy delta
I wanna play a kineticist so bad it makes me look stupid, but alas, 1.) I don’t have any more concept character-wise than just “wood/water kineticist” and 2.) the first character I’m playing in my upcoming sandbox Pathfinder game is a witch, and it’s a character concept I love mechanically even if the character themself I’m less hyped for relative to some other characters I have, so idk if I even want to swap them out
Maybe I’ll work on building a kineticist character concept today just to have in my back pocket
craggy thunder
Conrasu could be fun for that element combo
Coincidentally also working on a kineticist lmao
Hobgoblin with an Earth Gate
worthy delta
Ideally yeah, but we’re not playing in Golarion, we’re playing in what used to be my GM’s homebrew D&D setting, so idk if Conrasu will even exist
Oh nice! That sounds like a lot of fun
Accidentally a word there lol
warped orbit
Wood/Water is a great combo for support
They both have heals, and Water has some good AoE too
worthy delta
Yeah, the current party loadout post-switch to Pathfinder has like no healing so I think it’d be a good idea to have a healer in my roster
craggy thunder
I wanna make a Golden Sun type party with Kineticist tbh
Well if porting over from D&D is the game
Could always do the elemental heritages
worthy delta
Oh?
craggy thunder
In case you don't know, don't wanna assume your level of knowledge
worthy delta
Which ones are those again, im a PF noob 😅
craggy thunder
Genasi type stuff is tied to heritages, not a race
worthy delta
Oh yeah I remember seeing that in AoN!
craggy thunder
So this hobgoblin I'm making is also an Oread, the equivalent of an Earth Genasi
worthy delta
Cool
I’ll take a look at the elemental heritages then! Could be some fun synergy there
craggy thunder
The catchall term for them in PF is geniekin
And, since your character is dual-gate
There is a geniekin heritage for that, called the Suli
worthy delta
Oooooh
craggy thunder
You are still gonna have to pick a base race, I would recommend something with a Con bonus if you wanna be Optimal ™️
worthy delta
Yeah
turbid dagger
The wood planar scion, Ardande, has some rock solid stuff
Like there's a level 1 feat that makes it so if someone hits you, you inflict -1 circ to hit on them with that weapon as your sap like blood sticks to it for the duration of that turn
So it makes follow up strikes even less likely to connect
worthy delta
We’re still trying to work out which PF races do and don’t exist in the GM’s setting, but anything that exists in D&D does exist in it so there’s a baseline to start from
Orc could be fun 👀 I do like me some Orcs
craggy thunder
Big Angry Forest Spirit Energy
Meanwhile I'm trying to figure out how to round out this party of premades I'm creating for this all-Hobgoblin campaign idea
turbid dagger
What do you have so far, and what roles do you expect them to fill?
worthy delta
Let me double check
craggy thunder
Right now I have the squad leader, a Runtboss Thaum who's kind of general melee/party face, an Oread tank Fighter, and an Oread ranged Earth Kineticist
And ideally keeping the party low magic
Since y'know
That's an interesting restriction and is the opposite of another AP
Alchemist is obvious, so add that to the list
I need one or two more
Maybe Inventor???
turbid dagger
He's trying to reverse engineer guns
craggy thunder
That's literally exactly where I was going with that
ngl
"This plane is composed of minerals not mere earth, simpleton."
"Here, one could find a most wonderful base for a propellant."
turbid dagger
Megaton Strike Jezail inventor is a rock solid base chassis so I approve
And they have plenty of support stuff, though not as straightforward as alchemist
craggy thunder
Man I wish melee alchemist was more viable
There's this really cool 5e homebrew for a mundane alchemist that has just
the perfect melee alchemist
And the guy making it got so close to jumping ship to PF during the OGL stuff
But he went with making his own system instead lmao
turbid dagger
Drat....
Are you doing 'no magic' as like, a locked in thing, or just a theme
Because a Sorceror that literally Cannot Help but do magic might be fun
The only other idea I've got is an Investigator
Old dude from the Ironfang days who fights with his brain not his brawn
frank crystal
What would be the best bloodline for a sorcerer like that?
turbid dagger
There are a few options
Elemental from the Onyx Key and the Stone Roads seems the most straightforward option, but also Hobgoblins were created by a devil as an anti elf weapon so Infernal might also work
solar tendon
melee alchemist is alright as mutagenist
cheap bombs for a weapon siphon or alchemical gauntlet
self heal with revivifying mutagen
frank crystal
Also for another low magic option could go a more low to the ground champion?
Still has spells but extremely limited
solar tendon
some kind of skill monkey
craggy thunder
Are you doing 'no magic' as like, a locked in thing, or just a theme
Because a S...
Just a theme, though something like that I think runs afoul of it
Like a Kineticist in my mind is already p controversial to general Hobgoblin society
warped orbit
Investigator is an option
frank crystal
So it’s gonna be, Thaum, Fighter, Earth Kineticist, Alchemist and Investigator then?
carmine egret
I really like the mental image of a wood kineticist doing a melee blast of vital energy and it manifesting as like
punching a zombie and flowers bloom out the other side of it
like the guns in Grim Fandango
frank crystal
I’m imagining vital damage melee as like, basically a Kikosho from Chun Li
Just a ball of energy forming in your hands that you push into a target
carmine egret
you can get real artsy with it
craggy thunder
man idk why but I am not vibing with Investigator being in this premade party even tho the premise of the campaign is literally an investigation
unborn rain
Investigators a kinda weird class
2 action attacks where misses cost 1 action means their economies real weird
craggy thunder
I don't even mean mechanically I mean like
conceptually
even though for so many reasons one being present makes perfect sense
silver geyser
Real quick question because it came up for the person who was running the game. Is there stuff to investigate in Age of Ashes?
craggy thunder
I think maybe it's cuz I think the party isn't beefy enough?
Which doesn't really make sense either, there's a tank fighter, a thaum, and an earth kineticist with armor in earth
warped orbit
Flavor wise you can consider them more of a medic pretty easily
warped orbit
Forensics Investigator with Medic dedication, boom
craggy thunder
What's even funnier is the earth kineticist is meant to be a ranged character
weapon infusion be like
craggy thunder
That party is tanky as hell haha
lmao fair
craggy thunder
Forensics Investigator with Medic dedication, boom
I think I've discovered my sticking point
The campaign is an investigation
silver geyser
Forensic Investigator or Alchemist would work pretty well I think, especially with all Hobgoblins.
craggy thunder
But it's a very magically focused one, i.e. "yo, why have the Stone Roads become super erratic"
So something focused on ultimately more mundane investigations like Investigator feels... odd?
Which now makes me wish there was a like
weird mage investigator like those mage or shaman cops in shadowrun
unborn rain
That party sounds like it lacks healing and dealing with traps
craggy thunder
it does lack healing, though there will be an alchemist
what's the second thing lmao
Ah
silver geyser
I will say that Investigator is perfectly capable of being a weird magic investigator as well.
unborn rain
I think for like 'magic investigator' Thaum works fine
like you've already gotten someone who's deal is weird magic stuff and learning about them
craggy thunder
You know
Fair
Thaum here was more like
Person who totally uses magic but cuz it doesn't look like elf magic vociferously denies it
and is offended by the mere suggestion XD
But yeah the more investigatory tone fits into that character concept anyways
cuz it's in part figuring out what's going on on the plane and the Thaum is the face
unborn rain
As long as it's not Arcane, iirc Hobgoblins are pretty chill with it.
craggy thunder
They're like, begrudgingly chill with it I believe
With Occult on the thinnest ice and Divine on the thickest, relatively
unborn rain
What's the assumption on Keneticists? As they do use Nature Magic, just not to cast spells
silver geyser
I wouldn't even call what they do nature magic.
As what they do to open that gate can vary a lot.
carmine egret
could be open to debate
unborn rain
I wouldn't even call what they do nature magic.
craggy thunder
I mean it's magical, but even though it's magic it is very obviously not elf magic
silver geyser
I'm not calling it not magical.
craggy thunder
I don't think it rly falls into a tradition
silver geyser
I'm calling it not nature magic exclusively.
turbid dagger
I believe in the kineticists case the skinny is that they have that magic involuntarily and Oprak isn't just gonna waste manpower?
craggy thunder
It feels more primordial than primal
Which yes
Is a bit pedantic
But it feels more... base level
Than even Primal does
unborn rain
All of the Kenticist stuff has the primal trait
unborn rain
But they're new and not well understood
craggy thunder
Honestly
unborn rain
and if they've got Weapon Infusion, then they might go "Ah a weapon I respect this conceptually now"
craggy thunder
I think a cool idea to continue Hobgoblins' aversion to traditional magic is in future lore them becoming some of the best kineticists
Since they have the perfect bonuses for it
silver geyser
That was the case in 1e too, where they had the best bonuses for being a kineticist.
craggy thunder
I just rly like hobgoblins
If me making a whole campaign that is entirely hobgoblin based wasn't clue enough
unborn rain
hobgoblins are fun
craggy thunder
It helps they're also one of the best Magi ancestries
Int Con and the Cantorian feats my beloveds
unborn rain
Hobgoblins don't do Magi often as Elf Magic stuff
craggy thunder
Ye
I'm just a caster main
I am happy to create an exile or outcast or something
turbid dagger
I just rly like hobgoblins
I like them a lot also
In our Kingmaker game I'm basically playing Opraki James Bond
Super charismatic Hobgoblin Fighter whose been tasked with making sure the charter for a new kingdom offered by Brevoy develops into something Oprak can count on as an ally
craggy thunder
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
That's super interesting!!!!
btw, since Ddraig pointed this out earlier
how good is Ranger at dealing with traps?
silver geyser
Depends on skills and the traps really.
craggy thunder
fairs
turbid dagger
We've not gotten to play the last few weeks cuz our GM is feeling kind of down, but I've been loving it so far
As for the ranger thing: Uhhhhhhh they can do dex and thievery
I'm not sure if they have much other synergy, they have good perception for spotting things too but you can't really Hunt Prey All Traps
craggy thunder
Cuz I've had an idea that instead of an Investigator I've got a Ranger
A falconer who's been given a special new pet for the perpetually underground plane of Earth
turbid dagger
If they have an animal companion they can also afaik have them Search too to get two rolls at it?
craggy thunder
a cave pterosaur
silver geyser
Traps aren't one of those things I've really got a feel for in 2e, because the only experience I have is Age of Ashes.
And our strategy for the one-off traps was usually, y'know.
Face-tank and move on.
unborn rain
Traps are dependant on the campaign
like are they facing natural stuff like rockslides, normal traps like holes in the ground, magic traps or haunts
it also depends on if you're even going to put that many traps in the game
solar tendon
I like complex traps
silver geyser
I dislike the way most APs use traps.
solar tendon
I like using encounter mode for stuff that isn't just traditional combat in general
turbid dagger
Oh yeah, Survival helps with all the natural hazards that function like traps but aren't ones
Which will probably be more common than traps in the plane of earth
craggy thunder
like are they facing natural stuff like rockslides, normal traps like holes in t...
It's the Plane of Earth so all that shit lol
travelling the caverns, traversing hostile genie outposts/castles, etc
Likely more natural hazards tho
unborn rain
if arcane trickster was real and not the greatest lie the Paizo ever told, I'd suggest that
Like conceptually what Arcane Trickster theoretically is
craggy thunder
I think Ranger is the best fit here
Also this is the like one party member who's going to have great perception
craggy thunder
The Kineticist and their twin the fighter are already the planar migrants 
echo briar
Did phantasmal killer get a new name?
I vaguely remember something about that, but I can't find it in foundry.
solar storm
yeah its called Vision Of Death now
frank crystal
***ORC CANNON***
I’ve already made a build specifically to use this weapon
sinful gyro
Adventure Ideas Rance Couldn't Find Space to Put in:
-Ace Attorney Style Court Room Drama against Axis to determine the Gravelands Right to Live
-Skeleton Pirate Adventure on a Ship being built in Vellimus which a huge glass bottom that shine light on the sea floor - Featuring Bone Ship
-The Negative Energy Plane expands out of Tar Baphon's tower to engulphed the graveland and beyond all the way to Absolom, allowing Tar Baphon to just walk to the Star Stone on Foot
-Meet the Orc of Belzeken and their Gatling Guns
-Learn of Avalorex's Psychopomp Origins
-A trip to the hidden Earth Plane city of Oprak
-The Rememberence Week celebration that lead to the wall of Vellimus being blown up and the city over run.
-The Hidden Tomb beneath All's Well.
Here's what I couldn't get in
I did want to do a nice trip to the orcs
craggy thunder
If you ever make a game that's a trip to Oprak