Pathfinder

[turbid dagger]

Because the Grimple can throw two rocks, command, the thylacine can bite twice, and wow suddenly a dude is on the ground

[frank crystal]

Ok so for my summoner character, I’ve got room to get 3 consumable items and one permanent item

For my permanent item I’m thinking of grabbing that tattoo that gives a +1 to intimidation

Because I will make everything piss their pants

But for consumables I’m still kinda thinking

[turbid dagger]

Healing potions are always good, if plain
Your summoner can hold them in hand without much trouble and knock them back with Act Together to give your Eidolon a boost

[frank crystal]

True

[barren cipher]

map sharing though

[turbid dagger]

Oh, right
I always forget mounts share MAP

[limber comet]

Teaser for Witches+ Remastered

[upbeat ridge]

oh, good to see the pre existing classes+ are getting a remaster

[limber comet]

Well, just Witches atm

[upbeat ridge]

ah ok

yeah thats the one thats needed the most

[limber comet]

Not much changed for the other classes soooo

Witches needs the touch up

[upbeat ridge]

although i guess they could redo clerics+ eventually too

[rustic cape]

They kinda have to, just given the (rather extensive) changes to witches in the remaster

Speaking of witch, they're holding a vote for the next + release on their discord, here's the skinny https://docs.google.com/document/d/13nrudRyoeI6ZaAUK5GY-EHokdFBhpyWHRullkQftC5w/edit

[limber comet]

All of these are cool

I'm leaning towards Thaum or Monk

[warped orbit]

Feats+ would be cool
more skill and general feats would be very good

[limber comet]

I'm excited to see Witches+ Bog and Street patrons

[turbid dagger]

What are some cool loot items for a level 1 oneshot
Right now I've got a Wand that can cast either Runic Weapon or Runic Body, a few bottles of Alchemist's Fire (the final boss is a plant type enemy), and some special primal berries that function as Health Potions in a grove just before the final boss (the plants themselves are incredibly ominous, growing out of pools of blood with red leaves, so to determine that the berries actually have positive effects will take a nature check)

[frank crystal]

You can still oversized throw as an animal instinct barb right?

[barren cipher]

The object is a simple ranged weapon

well, you can do it once i guess

[heavy fulcrum]

hmm

well

technically everything you can attack with is a "weapon"

yes, even unarmed attacks

id assume the anathema is supposed to mean "manufactured weapons"

(which is a yes to oversized throw)

[turbid dagger]

Unless you mean like, the metaphysical concept of a weapon, this isn't true
PF2 makes a distinction between unarmed attacks and weapons in loads of rules (rogue stuff, magic weapon vs magic fang, iruxi's ancestry feats, etc)

Personally I would say RAW and prrrrrrrrrrrrrrobably RAI oversized throw does not work, BUT I'd allow it

(Or rather, yes oversized throw would be anathema)

[barren cipher]

automaton barbs with eye lasers are in great shape, though

[carmine egret]

https://gyazo.com/acfa763a7f8e96eef053f2e1db906f47 this is very funny to me

I just thought of a fun Earthling origin: was abducted by aliens and returned to the wrong planet

[turbid dagger]

Last check for ideas before I call this map done and start getting my players together

[limber comet]

Which 2e spellcaster is the most likely to use a skull with candles on it as a spellcasting focus

Asking for vibes

[turbid dagger]

Witch

[paper inlet]

Wizard or Witch

[turbid dagger]

Maybe Sorceror depending on bloodline
Use your moms skull to focus that Hag Power

[limber comet]

Mm, witch works

[echo briar]

How is Antarctica and the Arabian Desert more relevant to Golarion than the entirety of Asia?

[limber comet]

It has something to do with Baba Yaga

[turbid dagger]

Yeah those places are just the places that are mentioned at all, whatsoever, in any PF content

[silver geyser]

The Arabian desert because of the writer of the necronomicon

[eager mountain]

https://vxtwitter.com/Aroden10/status/1723858574470689083

[frank crystal]

You know, I don’t Aroden that much

But he’s kinda spittin

That would be extremely funny

[light gyro]

pharasma watching groteus rock up to be judged ten billion years early

[unborn rain]

I mean like, how many 'ends of the world's has Golarian been through

Groet Dying cause a god war would probably be a kind of end of the world

[clever cobalt]

They always end up being averted, if by the skin of their teeth

[solar tendon]

I mean

I guess technically earthfall was averted

still apocalyptic

[frank crystal]

If I have a staff in one hand, and a potion in the other, can I cast spells normally then?

[turbid dagger]

I wonder
What does actually happen when a god dies
Several have, not just Super Secret Aroden
They're judged by Pharasma and then.... do they break up into a bunch of little outsiders

[rustic cape]

I take it their corpses don’t float around in the Astral as in Planescape?

[solar tendon]

rain atoms of god juice on the landscape, apparently

[turbid dagger]

This seems like the first time an Exemplar phenomenon has happened
My conspiracy theories about Aroden being an exemplar from those two Azlanti gods aside

[silver geyser]

The list of divines that have died is short

There's the two Azlanti gods, the former god of travel and beasts,, and Aroden

The Azlanti gods powered the Starstone, which is very much Exemplar+

Lamashtu used her god murder to jump to full divinity

And Desna got travel out of it too

[unborn rain]

There's thousands of gods in Jalmeray and many of those have died iirc

[silver geyser]

Except they haven't had massive far reaching effects

Remember, just because they can empower divine spellcasters doesn't mean they're a full on god

When proper gods die, the effects are immediate and ibvious

[true delta]

Greetings!
I am soon to run Gatewalkers. I'm a little concerned that tje first session might be a bit boring, what with all the exposition and fetch quests, whereas the whole-ass dungeon crawl in the second session could be a bit much in a different way. Who's run or played it here?

[rustic cape]

I’m in a Gatewalkers game

Almost done with the second dungeon

Our GM got us into the woods and up to the early fights pretty quickly

[frank crystal]

So I’m kinda thinking for my summoner, my primary damage spell should probably be magic missile

Just because the flexibility of actions and non reliance on MAP kinda means it’s one of the few damage spells that I can do while still giving my eidolon most of the actions for attacks

[unborn rain]

I guess it means that you're small amount of spells are always going to do something

[frank crystal]

Yah I don’t really have the space for non useful spells

I only have the four slots

[barren cipher]

i dunno, magic missile is a good spell and all but it's going to be mediocre in half your slots

[frank crystal]

I mean yah but my main damage source will be my eidolon

Magic missile is more there for the niche of a one action ranged damage option

[barren cipher]

ouch

that's not a good use of your spell slots at all honestly

you are likely to do a lot better with more magic missile actions and less eidolon actions

cast idk lightning bolt and have your eidolon attack once

you're gonna be ahead

[frank crystal]

Yah that’s fair

Hmm, I guess yah if I do need a ranged attack for whatever reason

It’s probably because my eidolon can’t attack the enemy for whatever reason

[barren cipher]

i usually think of summoners as cantrip factories anyway

[frank crystal]

With their focus cantrips for sure

[barren cipher]

you both move with that one feat, act together with 2-action save based cantrip + strike

seems like a good round

or you buff cantrip and use your eidolon's 2-action feature

[frank crystal]

I mean yah but also I’m using dragon eidolon so eventually the majority of my damage will come from the 2 action make 3 attacks action they get

[barren cipher]

yeah i would think your third action is probably best used for, like

movement

maybe demoralise or something

[frank crystal]

I have specced a bit into intimidation

[barren cipher]

i generally expect to move once a turn

[frank crystal]

And by a bit as in most of my skill stuff is towards intimidation

So yah I may rework my spells, maybe keep magic missile just as a way to get guaranteed damage, just focusing more on the multi action versions, and then maybe grab sudden bolt for one of my 2nd level slots?

[barren cipher]

i mean if your eidolon can do a good job of single target striking, why would you double down on that

get some aoe or control or utility or something

[unborn rain]

I think for summoner the spell slots are better being put into buffs

for either you or your eidalon

like magic Fang on your eidalon will probably deal more damage than a magic missile

[worthy stump]

depends on your tradition, but i also prefer buffs/debuffs and battlefield control for my summoner spell slots

[frank crystal]

Hmm, what are some good AOE spells for level 1 and 2?

[frank crystal]

I’m in arcane

[worthy stump]

i will always be a fan of grease

[warped orbit]

Good aoe is a bit sparse at the early levels

[frank crystal]

I mean I’ve already got my handwraps of mighty blows

Magic fang is kinda useless to me rn

Rn for utility I’ve got mud pit, enlarge (until I get access to the focus spell for it) and a staff to cast gravitational pull

[unborn rain]

are they striking? Because you've been talking about level 1 and 2 spells

It doesnt matter anyway because you're on Arcane spell list

[barren cipher]

web and flaming sphere spring to mind

grease, animated assault, uh

[turbid dagger]

For a Draconic Frenzy centric summoner I'd probably do Boost Eidolon over Magic Missile just to save slots

[worthy stump]

glitterdust isn't as good as it was in previous editions, but it's still pretty solid

[barren cipher]

there's uh even a spell that lets your eidolon shield block now, what the hell

[frank crystal]

Protect companion?

[barren cipher]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1378

[frank crystal]

Oh

Oh huh

[worthy stump]

oh, that's cool

[turbid dagger]

Oh, another fun option for a summoner that never does anything themselves is beastmaster
Act Together Eidolon Turn/Command Companion is very funny

[frank crystal]

I forget when does the summoner focus spell get access to enlarge?

[turbid dagger]

Heightened 3rd

[frank crystal]

Ok so enlarge is still worth having then

Oh yah I got what I took for my second level 2 spell

Fear the sun

[thorny berry]

okay I was trying to look up which ancestry it was that had some sort of benefit to covering behind allies but

what on earth https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2429

[sinful gyro]

Rat and roll

[thorny berry]

(as far as what I was actually thinking: some small ancestry sniper gunslinger that can Take Cover on top of a wolf animal companion that can get those knockdown attacks)

[true delta]

Do you remember how far you got in the first session? Did you already reach the dungeon?
P.S: pretty cool that you're in a Gatewalkers game, 🦦 .

[warped orbit]

Halfling has Concealing Shadows, if that was the one you were thinking of

lets you hide behind allies

[rustic cape]

I think we either got up to the unicorn and called it there or freed it

[thorny berry]

that was probably it

...I'd probably still go kobold for the vibes tbh

[rustic cape]

This was like a 3 hour Foundry session, fyi

[true delta]

Thanks! Yeah, that's going to be the pacing I'll aim for, I guess. 👍

[surreal basin]

I think that’s also where I got session one

Although be warned the very first encounter of that ap can be a huge bitch

[rustic cape]

Gatewalkers is a little weird because at least so far it feels like it could be an 11-20 AP

The stakes are pretty high to start with

[surreal basin]

It’s my groups belief that it was one

And then they scaled it down

[rustic cape]

It would explain some things

[surreal basin]

Because they wanted to pivot to doing more low level APs

Because they’ve said they sell better

[rustic cape]

Yeah, I get that, it just feels a bit odd in places

[surreal basin]

And stolen fate came out right after so it’d be bad to have two high levels back to back

[rustic cape]

I like it!

[surreal basin]

Oh I finished the first book last night and yeah

[rustic cape]

But a bit odd

[surreal basin]

It’s got some moments where your level and the narrative feel like they don’t match

[rustic cape]

My group is about to fight Kaneebo

[clever cobalt]

Trying to think of cool character concepts for a Fleshwarp from the Mana Wastes

Like a Thaumaturge who learned, in the absence of magic, how to fight magical beasts without magic

[carmine egret]

Forensic Medicine Investigator who hides their body under a plague doctor getup

[solar tendon]

hmm

probably gonna be in a Outlaws of Alkenstar game at some point

and I have a character concept I adore, a Donguni Clockfighter Inventor / Folklorist whose Spin Tale is commentating

using the Construct innovation as the hero of the story

but idk if I wanna play the build for ten levels? The character I think definitely but it's not got a whole lot of options in combat until pretty late

I'm also concerned that relying on the companion to that extent and only taking clan pistol pot shots otherwise is a liability

[barren cipher]

yeah, although clockwork companions are a bit better than animal companions it's important to remember that they are a class feature and you are the whole class

[solar tendon]

I think really the solution's probably gonna just be to try it out. build is pretty much online from level 2

[barren cipher]

clan pistol seems like it's going to be a rough time

do you have access to reload action economy from anywhere?

also if you can't get status bonuses from elsewhere, putting them on your companion rather than a fellow martial isn't quite throwing but it's a bit sad

[warped orbit]

you could do Strike, Reload, Command
as long as you don't have to move

[frank crystal]

Man I really wish kinetic ram did anything on a successful save

[barren cipher]

they do but that leaves no actions for either movement or spin tale

[eager mountain]

Lol we got k’od in our first dungeon fight and taken prisoner

A grimple braided my hair

And gave me lice

Then we escaped and fucked up the bad guys

[trail nova]

... oops, found an infinite damage build in 1e.

(Depending on how you read a terribly written feat, it's just 5 feats? All 1pp?

[frank crystal]

What is burning hands being renamed too?

[trail nova]

Found a better build. Infinite attacks at level 7.

[thorny berry]

thaaaaat's 1e

[frank crystal]

Oh huh

Lightning bolt actually seems quite a bit better then fireball looking at it more

A better damage type, higher average damage

Just I’m not sure I like line AOEs too much

[barren cipher]

lightning bolt is fab

[frank crystal]

It does seem very good

Also goddamn

I didn’t realize how long the AOE is

120 feet

That’s kinda insane lol

[turbid dagger]

I think lines probably work better in PF2 than like, Lancer or Icon
Because ime fights are in really tiny rooms and everyone gets into adjacency and Does Not Move After That

[frank crystal]

True but also bursts are just easier to place really

Because you just declare an area and do the thing

While lines are like, based on your position more then anything

[turbid dagger]

Hey, casters get one action asides from casting their spell for a reason

[frank crystal]

Fair

[trail nova]

I’m not sure PF 2e has the forced movement to reliably set up 3+ in a line.

2 isn’t hard, it’s that third guy who’s tricky

[frank crystal]

Yah

[trail nova]

Like, 5 feet of forced movement isn’t too hard, but there’s not a ton of reliable stuff beyond that IIRC. You don’t have Ferrous Lash or Puppet Systems for setup

[frank crystal]

There’s gravitational pull, but that’s only towards you

So that has its own issues

[trail nova]

(Also I think a lot of the easily accessible stuff is push/pull, not arbitrary. Which means positioning is still very important.)

[frank crystal]

Yah

There’s not much that’s just, “move an enemy in whatever direction you want”

Oddly enough the best stuff for that is probably just the mind control stuff

Because then you can just tell them to use their actions to move wherever you want

[turbid dagger]

PF2e seems to be afraid of that D&D-o-sphere 'shunted bad guy out of his tower' horror story

[frank crystal]

Which is fair tbh

I do wish some stuff was easier to use though

Like not requiring failed saves for even minor forced movement

Also huh

I think I’ll actually keep enlarge instead of replacing it once I get the enlarge evolution surge

Because that doesn’t actually give the +2 to damage

[turbid dagger]

Indeed it does not
You gain access to Eidolon's Opportunity at the same level so it does help with that tho

[frank crystal]

What’s that?

[turbid dagger]

Level 6 feat, AoO but for your eidolon

[frank crystal]

Ohhhhh

[turbid dagger]

(Also Boost Eidolon can cover the status-to-damage)

[frank crystal]

Oh is boost eidolon a status bonus?

I thought it was circumstance

If that’s the case I’ll probably replace it

It’s really easy to use boost eidolon with something like dragon’s fury

[turbid dagger]

Hm
may have to recruit here for the oneshot
Only three people responded on my Usual Channels, and two likely won't make the days

[surreal basin]

Why does enlarge not give the damage bonus

[rustic cape]

Enlarge the spell does, enlarge the evolution surge option does not. "Your eidolon becomes Large, instead of its previous size. This increases your eidolon's reach to 10 feet but doesn't change any other statistics for your eidolon. Because of the special link you share, you can ride your eidolon without getting in each other's way. If another creature tries to ride your eidolon, both you and the riding creature each regain only 2 actions at the start of your turns each round, as normal."

[surreal basin]

Ohhh okay

Wait if you ride an animal companion do you only get two actions

Or is that for riding non-animal companions

[solar tendon]

I think that's just for riding intelligent creatures

oh actually it's for riding bipeds

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=852

riding a non companion means you have to roll nature to Command and it's 1:1 in actions rather than the general minion rule

[light gyro]

new thaumaturge fit just dropped (its a thread but tumblr embed suck ass) https://www.tumblr.com/vexwerewolf/733974551723212800

[frank crystal]

I just see a friends Gif

[carmine egret]

Unless we're seeing different gifs that's Seinfeld

[solar tendon]

are the seinfelds not also friends

[frank crystal]

Oh

Yah ngl I didn’t realize

Most of those show are kinda just blended together in my mind

[frozen hatch]

Guys I think I have a new idea for a campaign. Has anyone ever heard of the story of the Czech Legion?

[frank crystal]

I have not

[frozen hatch]

brief history lesson time:

1. Czech troops originally fought for Austro-Hungarian empire in WW1 but most surrendered to Imperial Russia instead of fighting before forming the Czech Legion to fight against Germany with Russian support as to help form czechoslovakia.
2. War ends but can't go west due to having to go through Germany and Austria where they'd be executed for treason so east they go during height of Russian Civil War with the communists betraying them.
3. Reds hunt them down across Siberia due to supporting whites (anti-communist forces) and taking over the trans-siberian railway which is the largest railroad in the world with armored trains.
4. Win only naval battle in Czech history on a siberian lake using captured boats+multiple howitzer.
5. Help Siberians more than whites and reds did and forming a temporary republic of Siberia.
6. Flee across the pacific after stealing all of the Tsar's gold before the communists could get it and reach Vladivostok after spending 3 years fighting and racing along the railways..

The story here is starting to give me some ideas for a campaign.

[worthy stump]

oh, i recently heard about that because there's a game about them coming out in a couple weeks

could be very interesting for a campaign, for sure

[frozen hatch]

Party might be part of a group having to travel across a country during a Civil war and get their people to somewhere safe. Could have part of it being that they need to seize a train to better travel with opportunities to rise in responsibilities among their people and maybe the War wary local civilians.

[trail nova]

And a build that requires no convoluted readings and can make infinite attacks at level 13. Lovely!

[frozen hatch]

Decision must be made to whether to support one side or the other in the Civil War or neither side and just help civilians instead which they might leave in villages or take along on the odyssey across the country.

[heavy fulcrum]

Last Train Home, comes out on the 28th (and theres a demo now)

[frozen hatch]

Honestly I haven't heard of that game until now

I just like history

[surreal basin]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/17v3u68/new_wizard_school_spelllists_vs_old_wizard_school/?share_id=QAyWYrXOyAdwwJZD-bu54&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1

interesting post

and before someone says it - yes this has less variety than schools and is a huge nerf to wizards

lets skip that dead horse

[wary yoke]

But can the horse be animated as a zombie?

[surreal basin]

probably

[wary yoke]

I don't know enough about how wizards work to say how much of a downgrade this is, besides the fact that I'm waiting to see how it pans out with older stuff like the Magus

Since I do have a PF2E game on the slate at some point and I'm retooling my character to a Magus, unless paladins bend sufficiently enough

[warped orbit]

the change is that basically before you could prepare any spell from your specialized school in your special slot
now you have a specific list of spells that can go in there

[turbid dagger]

That is technically a downgrade but as long as there are still useful spells to put in it does not seem worth worrying about much

[frank crystal]

So for my summoner I’m swapping the flavor of his spells to be a bunch of different creatures he summons that emulate the effects

And I’m kinda thinking of making a sorta list of all the creatures he uses for various kinds of spells

Like X and Y spells are something, while Z and A are another

[surreal basin]

Mhm

[frank crystal]

Rn I’ve got a bunch of blue feathered falcons for electric arc, a swam of fireflies for fireball, a giant beetle for telekinetic hand, a big ass turtle for protect companion, a giant spectral bull for kinetic ram but that’s about it

[surreal basin]

Boy gee I’m really excited for my players to do the rest of book 3 of strength of thousands

Books 1 and parts of 2 did not really do it for them

But I think the knights of abendego are really solid and tbh I wish the entire AP was about them lol

[limber comet]

The ruins around the eye of Abendego are really cool

Idk I like the idea of exploring an area wracked by a constant storm

[unborn rain]

So after playing the kingmaker video game, I noticed Gnomes have a weird like Anti-Lizards and Goblins thing

Is that a old lore thing that was lost? or something else because other things in the game have similar features but I feel like they're all things which have carried through

[carmine egret]

That was in 1e I believe

[frank crystal]

Ok so my friend has finally made a character where the armored coat is optimal

An air kineticist with a +2 to dex who doesn’t care about thievery or stealth but does care about acrobatics

[barren cipher]

isn't a chain shirt better?

[frank crystal]

His character has a +2 to dex so there’s no difference

[barren cipher]

yeah chain shirt is better for your walking around armour, you only really want an armoured coat if you don't want to look like you're wearing armour

armoured coat is +2 ac, chain shirt is +3

oh no wait

[turbid dagger]

The Sodden Lands are pretty high on the list for settings I want to play in
People eking out a living in the top of flooded towers, somber boatmen winding through the wastes, so on

[frank crystal]

No they’re- yah both +2

Just the chain shirt has an AC cap of 3 instead of 2

[barren cipher]

yeah a chain shirt is still 15gp better though

[frank crystal]

So the ability to sleep in your armor is actually more useful

[frank crystal]

Moneys not an issue atm

[barren cipher]

i dunno, you can buy a lot of pies for 15gp

[turbid dagger]

I for one approve of the armored coat being useful for once
Even if a lot of kineticists can just use their instant armor impulses to get pass the 'no armor allowed' issue anyway

[frank crystal]

Yah, though she’s a pure air so she can’t get those

At least not yet

Though I don’t think he’s planning to grab any of the armor elements

[turbid dagger]

.....I should do a wood fire kineticist some time.....
Flying Flame.... cool......

[frank crystal]

Wood fire does sound sick just

Thematically

The idea of an ashen kineticist who’s elements exist as like

Apart of a forest fire

That’s so cool

[turbid dagger]

Yeahhhh
The idea in my head right now is like
A conrasu that survived a terrible fire
And their wooden exoskeleton is all charred and ashy

[frank crystal]

I was imagining like, the exact same thing lol

A charred burned conrasu

Honestly, a wildfire Conrasu is a sick idea for a villain

[turbid dagger]

I always have trouble coming up for motivations when making conrasu chars
Like, Why Adventure

[unborn rain]

Adventure to learn more about the world

Adventure to further the goals of those Lawful guys that made them

[barren cipher]

sitting at home being a rock in a shrub does not sound all that exciting honestly

[carmine egret]

Conrasu Champion would whip ass

[unborn rain]

I really wonder what they're gonna do with champion

in the remaster

[barren cipher]

i think you could do worse than just sprucing up the feats a little bit and calling it a day

[solar tendon]

champion is renamed the chump-ion

[barren cipher]

file off alignment, replace 'good' with 'spirit', you're off to the races

[carmine egret]

Yeah, just curious if they'll use the excuse to get a little wilder

It would be cool to make different Champs very different depending on their god

[unborn rain]

As champions are, there's only really 6 options for like who you play.

Like on a character base each champion subclass covers like a personality. When most classes and subclasses cover a whole bunch of them yknow

[solar tendon]

I wanna play paladin mechanically but I'm never gonna wanna play a narc

[frank crystal]

Just play a cool paladin

[solar tendon]

play a paladin who doesn't agree with the edicts at all but knows if they break them they lose their powers and they care about the things they do with their powers

[unborn rain]

Paladin is great mechanically, I love it mechanically it's just attached to the biggest set of nerd principles

[frank crystal]

You must act with honor, never taking advantage of others, lying, or cheating.
You must respect the lawful authority of legitimate leadership wherever you go, and follow its laws.

I mean with the stipulations of “good” you could always disrespect evil laws

So just punch cops in the face

[solar tendon]

tenets come above edicts in priority

I guess

[unborn rain]

I don't respect the concept of legitimate rulership on a personal level so it's hard to get into the head of a character who does

[solar tendon]

yeah tbh it's the hypocrisy that gets me I guess

[frank crystal]

How so?

[solar tendon]

but in general as a power it feels very much like a non sequitur

like the redeemer and liberator are much more thematic

and have coherent ideals

but paladin its just like what even is a 'legitimate' leadership other than one that meets your own bias

[frank crystal]

I guess that’s fair

[solar tendon]

and how does that make you better at attacking people to intercede

[frank crystal]

Paladins vibes absolutely do bank on like

The name paladin

You say paladin in a fantasy TTRPG and you kinda already got an idea of what you’re working with

[unborn rain]

I think one of the issues with paladin is that it's pretty tied into like Knightly chivalry which is tied into Nobility

Which isn't what most people would consider legitimate rulership, especially if they're supposed to be a good person

[frank crystal]

I do think a paladin which is like, going into folk hero kinda stuff could be good

Where something not chosen by the people is not considered legitimate

But also like, that’s very much liberators domain

Paladins are made with the idea that the “legitimate” ruling body is whatever body is already in power

[unborn rain]

Yeah that's the issue. Almost every Paladin concept I've had turned into a Liberator character and fizzled out because
Liberators not as cool mechanically as Paladin

[solar tendon]

it's also like. if it's a just law why would you break it anyway. if it's an unjust law then the tenets of good override

so it feels like you have this big important edict that whenever it actually affects your character you just weasel out of it

[frank crystal]

Yah true

Honestly I’ve never liked how, easily avoidable champion edicts are in PF2E

[solar tendon]

and it's very much based on the idea of like natural laws and an order of things that doesn't vibe super well with what golarion has become haha

[frank crystal]

The fact there’s clauses for alignment and clauses for common sense makes them feel

Kinda limp

Especially when champion as a class is about fully embodying your cause

[solar tendon]

cause its based on like 80s political climate and protestant christian beliefs

[frank crystal]

You are the exemplar (ignoring the other class named exemplar) of whatever group you’re apart of and whatever you’ve sworn yourself to

[unborn rain]

exemplar is kind of cooler champion in a way

[frank crystal]

I mean I think they’re fundamentally different ideas

Other then being divine focused martials

Champions are about your swearing to another and the world around you

While exemplars focus on your personal journey of what you do with your powers

[unborn rain]

I think it's more a personal thing of like, most of the things I'd want to do with a champion character I could probably do better with an exemplar.

You're right

[frank crystal]

I mean you’re also not wrong

Exemplar is radical and I have so many ideas for them already

I just disagree that they are like, super similar to champion

[turbid dagger]

This is true but
Feeling obliged to send your level 3 ass up against the level 17 red dragon that burns your village down at the start because of anathema is not gonna feel great
And 'paladin does something dumb because they are sworn too' is a common D&D horror story

[thorny berry]

fantasy fiction in a nutshell, eh

[frank crystal]

That’s fair, it’s a very common horror story

[thorny berry]

paladins definitely get hit with that one worse than most

[frank crystal]

But also I like playing paladins who do not compromise on their morality

Or oaths

[thorny berry]

horses and shining swords: badass

hereditary nobility, perhaps more mixed,

[heavy fulcrum]

is there any actual (ie not intentionally manufactured to be an asshole to the paladin) situation where a PF2 paladin would actually be required to do combat against an impossible foe?

[thorny berry]

like you either deconstruct it all so much you're playing on discworld- which I would say is golarion's general lean- or you just kinda go 'look some of this is just a genre convention accept it and move on'

[heavy fulcrum]

because the closest is the whole "dont hurt innocents or let innocents come to harm" part of the Good rules except its immediately followed by "you dont need to commit suicide to obey this one"

You must never knowingly harm an innocent, or allow immediate harm to one through inaction when you know you could reasonably prevent it. This tenet doesn't force you to take action against possible harm to innocents at an indefinite time in the future, or to sacrifice your life to protect them.

[thorny berry]

I mean I think in a situation where the stakes are particularly dire a paladin might judge such sacrifice to be demanded by the spirit if not the letter

but then you get into very silly utilitarian style thought experiments of 'well what if sacrificing your life saved the entire world or damned it if you didn't'

or, to take another approach: A paladin isn't required to throw the train switch to divert the train onto themselves, but they probably aren't allowed to throw the train switch to divert the train off themself onto somebody else

and of course even if you don't literally fall, other paladins and clerics aren't required to approve of your actions

[frank crystal]

Yah, but also I do like to play a character who in that example

Would jump in front of the train

[thorny berry]

Naturally

I think that's sort of the fantasy of playing a paladin, really

I still wanna play my gnoll grapple-champion some day....

[frank crystal]

At least for me yah

[barren cipher]

yeah even if you have like the anti-dragon oath you don’t have to start shit you reasonably expect you can’t finish just because there’s a dragon there

you are required to risk your life, not pointlessly sacrifice it

although of course sacrificing your life for your principles is eternally popular

you just don’t have to

[solar tendon]

I mean the problem is not that like the paladin rules don't have exceptions its that the exceptions are a lot more common I guess?

[thorny berry]

and there's probably a bit of ambiguity there- how badly do you have to be outmatched for a fight to be a 'sacrifice' and not a 'risk'?

[turbid dagger]

My point was that the 'you don't need to commit suicide' bit is good, because prior games in the D&D/Path-O-Sphere did not necessarily clarify that

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah

its a specific addition by paizo to address "lawful stupid"

notably, the second part of paladin is "obey the law", NOT "enforce the law"

[unborn rain]

Very annoying that only paladin gets vengeance oath, as it's the perfect oath for a Outlaws of Alkenstar game

But paladin is a class which just doesn't work for that adventure path

[barren cipher]

you use your best judgement and trust the gm not to screw you, because honestly if they’re going to screw you with this then they were going to screw you anyway

[rustic cape]

If your Paladin isn’t a socialist what are you even doing

[barren cipher]

capitaladin

[frank crystal]

any items level 4 or lower that are good for grappling?

or honestly any of the athletics actions

[barren cipher]

lifting belt

[frank crystal]

oh nice

[frank crystal]

Oh

I didn’t realize the actual rewards for that quest was only 10 gold

I can’t afford much of anything rn

[turbid dagger]

I've yet to reach a point in any D&D o sphere game where I can actually just like
Buy a bespoke special magic item that does special stuff
The closest I've gotten is buying a +1 handwrap for my summoner in SOT

[frank crystal]

Ok so I’ve been thinking of more cool thematic kineticist combinations

And one I’m kinda liking is a like, air metal kineticist who just uses all the electricity and magnetic impulses

[turbid dagger]

Air/Metal was the combo I was workshopping when I first learned kineticist was coming to 2e
Of course the metal plane wound up being very different from what I figured to it kind of didn't fit (metal/air for a 'wind knight' kind of dude)

[frank crystal]

What were you expected originally?

[turbid dagger]

The plane of metal wound up being very dirty and chaotic and disordely, which is not knight vibes

[frank crystal]

Ah yah

Admittedly my original for my metal kineticist was a very like

Pristine knight as well

Though I didn’t really abandon the idea of using metal kinesis to become less rusted though

Just like, as an automaton and not a knight

[rotund geode]

I do really like how metal ended up turning out, I feel like you could use it for some "Spooky War Incarnate Guy" vibes

[frank crystal]

I mean I do kinda still flavor my metal kineticists as like, more pristine steels and silvers

Not the rusted irons that it really is shown as

[rotund geode]

very valid

and I can even see that being a "its all in the technique" thing

[frank crystal]

Yah true

At the end of the day the plane of all metal would have like

All metals

Including some of the nicer ones

Just a case of cleaning them as you bring them out

[rotund geode]

like, I am sure the fire the fire guy summons would prefer to just fuck everything up and be a super mega inferno

and I am sure the metal the metal guy summons would prefer to be a plane crash

but like... there is a sapient creature directing this

[turbid dagger]

I've kind of shifted over to wood and did 'make all these very orderly plates and swords out of wood' because hey! That's what the plane of wood actually does

[paper inlet]

All metal you say-
U R A N I U M K I N E T I C I S T

[worthy stump]

you wouldn't be immune to your own radiation, though, so i hope you're a lead kineticist too

[paper inlet]

*Thinkery,

[frank crystal]

Lead automaton

[worthy stump]

[paper inlet]

Radiation is a poison effect iirc or categorized as such

So it doesn't even have to be a lead automaton, any automaton will do

[worthy stump]

it is categorized as poison, yeah

not that automatons are immune to that in 2e

[paper inlet]

Don't they have construct traiy

[frank crystal]

They do but they don’t have any of the immunities

[paper inlet]

Oh, interesting

Oh, rigjt

The core

Poppets do not specify that they do not have the immunities tho
They have saving throws bonuses but-

[warped orbit]

Automatons the ancestry do not have regular construct immunities

[surreal basin]

I still think it’s semi-reasonable to say they’re immune to bleed specifically

Bleed’s rules says that creatures without blood are immune to it

As a note

I know that’s not what we’re talking about

But it’s common

[unborn rain]

Coolant

[surreal basin]

Yeah no you can definitely justify them still taking it if you want

But there’s a real argument they should be immune regardless

In that they, + undead PCs, don’t have blood

[unborn rain]

I think zombies and ghouls might still have blood

[paper inlet]

They have elemental energy that courses through them that acts as blood

That's the justification

[rotund geode]

Abysium Kineticist

[silver geyser]

I am on the side of Poppets, Automatons, and undead PCs except for vampires being immune to Bleed.

And Conrasu.

[frank crystal]

Same

It’s not like bleed is that common of a status for enemies to do anyway

[barren cipher]

bleed’s not that rare no?

[frank crystal]

Yah but not common either

It’s not like it’s grapple or trip or something all enemies could potentially do

They can only do bleed if their statblock has that ability

[barren cipher]

sonic damage ain’t that common either, can i be immune to that because of my fluff

[frank crystal]

[unborn rain]

Everyone has stuff inside them that if it got out it would be bad

[silver geyser]

Not everyone.

What's gonna leak out of a wooden poppet?

Or a skeleton?

[solar jacinth]

Wow I let the remaster release just fly right past me.

[fast hill]

it's today right?

[barren cipher]

i know there isn’t a feature for it right but my poppet is made of and stuffed with asbestos, so i’m immune to fire, poison, cold and acid damage

[silver geyser]

You're being really sour here Pil

Bleed literally says that things without blood are immune.

[fast hill]

bone marrow

and uhhh

sap?

raw magical energy

[frank crystal]

Ok but actually asbestos stuffed poppet as a super soldier would go pretty hard

[barren cipher]

yeah pretty much, when i was younger i got walked over by problem players

[silver geyser]

We're not problem players.

Also, if my poppet and skeleton still have to eat, drink, and fuckin' breathe, I can live with the minor boon of not breathing.

*bleeding

bluh

Flopsies doesn't even have any lungs, and had to be treated for smoke inhalation session 1 of a game.

[solar tendon]

the only solution to a problem player is to not play with them

[worthy stump]

i find it intriguing that in a system that's usually very explicit with the rules that they were so vague with bleed immunity. as is, i can see GMs ruling either way for quite a few of the more unusual ancestries

[carmine egret]

Doesn't that imply a precedent for them being susceptible to bleed?

[silver geyser]

It really doesn't.

[carmine egret]

Do monsters normally list bleed immunity?

[warped orbit]

Not always

[unborn rain]

Skeletons don't eat also, it's a part of basic undeath benefits

they just need to collect bones

[carmine egret]

At the risk of being rude doesn't that just mean there are monsters that you think should be bleed immune but RAW aren't?

[silver geyser]

I don't understand why this is the thing that people are getting all ping-y on.

[fast hill]

do we know when the remaster rules will be on AoN?

[silver geyser]

Not yet.

[fast hill]

gah

cant wait for it to drop like 5 minutes before session on friday

[warped orbit]

It's possible, but that's kinda the issue

[fast hill]

and all the AoN-searches for rules clarifications

will be absolutely awful

[worthy stump]

AoN twitter said that they plan to update closer to the end of the month rather than steet date. no concrete date yet, though

[silver geyser]

Good news, Bleed very explicitly will not work on skeletons.

[carmine egret]

I think the core is that PF2 has a design philosophy where the RAW are expected to be very explicit, and there's a specific opposition to a looser approach where you get more "hm, sounds right" rulings.

[silver geyser]

Or any undead.

As such, it has no effect on nonliving creatures or living creatures that don't need blood to live.

[warped orbit]

I just think leaving bleed immunity only implicit through the undead tag is bad, because the bleed trait is the only place the above is mentioned

They should give undead statblocks bleed immunity explicitly IMO, for clarity

[silver geyser]

I'd rather they not waste the wordcount on undead, constructs, etc

[carmine egret]

At the risk of sounding kinda mean in both directions I feel like there's a least a hint of "that's for 5E homebrewers, we're better than this"

[silver geyser]

This is people arguing about a rule that's already written and pretty clear.

If you don't need blood to live, you don't bleed.

[carmine egret]

So some folks push back especially hard because they see that line of thought as something they play PF to avoid

It's just that "needs blood to live" isn't a mechanically codified thing

Or as firmly codified as other things

[silver geyser]

It's generally something you can tell by just looking at a creature type.

[worthy stump]

yeah, that's something that can be up to interpretation for certain creatures. like, would a leshy be immune to bleed? some people say yes, some people say no

[warped orbit]

The bigger issue here is ancestries not getting the normal immunities they would have
Which just makes stuff like skeleton really awkward

[carmine egret]

Yeah, it establishes dueling precedents

[silver geyser]

See my earlier point of my poppet who has no internal organs at all nearly dying from smoke inhalation.

[unborn rain]

I think if some ancestries were supposed to be immune, the writers of pf2e would put it down explicitly and the fact they havent

means all PC's are effected by bleed

[worthy stump]

the eternal seesaw between balance and coolness... 😔

[silver geyser]

No, not all PC's are going to bleed.

Automatons sure as shit don't have blood.

Undead are very explicitly immune.

I really hope your poppet doesn't have blood in it.

[carmine egret]

How do dhampirs work

[warped orbit]

They should have either not printed them, or just slapped a super rare tag on it or something

[silver geyser]

Dhampir are not Undead.

[carmine egret]

Okay that's what I wasn't sure about

[worthy stump]

dhampir are still living people, yeah. just with void healing instead of vitality

[silver geyser]

Also, for everything but a handful of Rare ancestries and Leshies, the question of "does it need blood to live?" is super easily answered.

On the GM side, all Undead and Constructs are blanket immune period, which only leaves you weird corner case monters, and only if your PCs have access to bleed in the first place.

Actually, good news, Automatons are very directly called out as Constructs, so they definitely don't bleed.

So that leaves Poppets, Conrasu, Androids, and maybe some Fleshwarps to figure out.

Conrasu are plants, so whatever answer you landed on for Leshies also works for them.

Also Ghoran, forgot them for a sec.

Androids have this: Their bodies contain microscopic nanites, transported by fluid too watery to be blood, that manage their organic processes

Fleshwarps are a case by case basis for existing anyways, so 🤷

And it's going to be really weird to have a poppet with blood in it.

[carmine egret]

As someone else said a lot of them have something in em

[silver geyser]

But it's not blood, and bleed damage specifically calls out "Needs Blood to Live"

It also helps that Poppets have the Construct tag too.

[carmine egret]

I'm gonna be honest the fleshwarp take kinda rankles me, that's going directly into asbestos poppet territory

[silver geyser]

Fleshwarps are weird.

They're a Rare for a reason.

But yeah, Poppets are not traditionally living creatures.

[carmine egret]

To be frank it hurts the whole rest of your argument to say "well some fleshwarps might be bleed immune if the player just says they don't have blood"

[silver geyser]

It doesn't. Fleshwarp itself has weird corner cases.

You were created through occult or alchemical processes, such as being grown in a vat or stitched together from the body parts of other creatures by a scientist in Ustalav.

You could literally be a bunch of body parts stitched together, or have been modified by technology.

[carmine egret]

It's not undead and flesh is in the name

Flesh traditionally contains blood

[silver geyser]

But you're not a traditional creature.

You're a weird Fleshwarp thing.

[carmine egret]

I don't respect your argument

[silver geyser]

All I said that it's a case by case that every GM will have to rule on.

And that's fine.

[carmine egret]

I'm tapping out of this

[silver geyser]

OK

[trail nova]

I do find it hillarious that Pazio thought Poppets needing to eat and drink was something they needed.

How often does that become relevant.

(Breathing is somewhat more of a factor. But still quite situational.)

[silver geyser]

I've found some fun in eating as a poppet.

Flopsies doesn't have a mouth, because why would he have been built with one?

So food and water just sorta disappears in the general mouth area.

Nobody really knows where it goes.

[trail nova]

(Can eat/drink... actually does have relevance. Needs to eat/drink... usually only comes up in very low level survival stuff.)

[silver geyser]

Everyone comments that it's disturbing to watch until you get used to it.

[light gyro]

remember to regularly soak your stuffed poppet with milk

[trail nova]

Free Stench ability!

[silver geyser]

Flopsies has also commented on how he hates swimming too!

His insides get all wet and he hates it.

But it also helps him figure out how other people must feel all the time since their insides are always wet.

[turbid dagger]

Hm
If as a psychic, I use Thoughtform Summoning to call up a Mindless Undead
Is it still immune to mental damage despite Thoughtform giving it weakness 5 to mental?

Because I'm seeing a way to ethically summon undead and make the tanky as fuck

[unborn rain]

Maybe like, every time it'd take mental it takes 5?

It's a weird edge case

[turbid dagger]

Its weird, because technically speaking a mindless creature is immune to effects with the Mental trait, not necessarily mental damage
But afaik all effects that do mental damage have the Mental trait

So RAW I'd be inclined to say they are immune

As odd as that is

[barren cipher]

yeah it's 0

[warped orbit]

yeah

[turbid dagger]

So that leaves it just with the physical resistance and weakness 5 to force
So dollar signs unless a caster with magic missile rolls up I suppose

[warped orbit]

mental immunity is both

both mental damage and things with the mental tag

[barren cipher]

if a caster is using spell slots on your summon you are winning

[heavy fulcrum]

they get the weakness and immunity, so 5 mental damage becomes 10 and is then ignored

[barren cipher]

yeah whichever order of operations you prefer it's immune

[turbid dagger]

This is all Mindless says on Nethys, it doesn't mention mental (the damage type) explicitly
But I'm not sure if it matters either way

[unborn rain]

anything that deals mental damage will be a mental effect

[turbid dagger]

Yeah

I'll have to wait till level 4 if I want to push the 'ethical imaginary necromancer' idea but that sounds like a fun time

[fast hill]

to be fair we dont feel our insides

[craggy thunder]

I'm very sad nothing rly like a firbolg exists in PF

[surreal basin]

Mindless creatures are immune to both mental damage and the mental tag because they’re tied together

[surreal basin]

same same

Waiting patiently for a giant ancestry

[frank crystal]

Same, I really wanna homebrew in a Goliath race just because I have a Goliath character in dnd that I really liked

And I wanna port them over

[solar tendon]

toll gnome

[frank crystal]

Even bigger orc

[solar tendon]

super toll sprite

oh. I thought firbolg were fey related

wassa difference between a goliath and a firbolg then

actually I'm just gonna accept I won't undersand FR lore lol

[unborn rain]

Goliaths are really tiny giants made of rocks

I do not know what a firbolg is

[surreal basin]

They are like giantish fey yes

[solar tendon]

really tiny giants made of skin apparently

[craggy thunder]

They're weird fey giantkin, yes

[frank crystal]

Yah firbolgs are now Fey giantkin

But they were also reworked in 5e

I think originally they were just, more standard giant people

[solar tendon]

I'd be tempted to make goliaths a human ancestry feat or somethin that gave you stone skin

in pathfinder

in the vein of dragon spit etc

[turbid dagger]

Wood Giants kind of look like Firbolg and fit that same general realm of 'friendly wilderness giants'

Alas, you cannot play them

[unborn rain]

with large PC rules coming next year, they should be more easily homebrewable

[frank crystal]

Also I mean, Goliaths and Firbolgs in 5e at least are still medium creatures

So if someone were to homebrew them, it would probably be fine to just keep them that size

Just with some feats to represent their general build and size

[unborn rain]

I meant wood giants although I also assumed one of the two Giant folk races in D&D would be large

[frank crystal]

Oh yah

Yah they’d probably be large

[frank crystal]

Also nah, 5e doesn’t have like, any large playable races I think

But it has been a while since I checked

So I could very well be wrong

[warped orbit]

It doesn't

[frank crystal]

Ah alright

[carmine egret]

I think in 4E firbolgs were like, kinda trickster-y fey giants

They were a later monster manual addition

Whereas Goliaths were always kind of just a New Type of Dude (positive)

I had a longstanding fondness for them because i'm pretty sure I owned the book that invented them

[surreal basin]

Same for shardminds

For me

Which I’ve thought would be fun to make a PF2E ancestry for actually

[carmine egret]

(brain blast) geniekin minotaur could fill either d&d Big Guy roles

Oh Shardminds could be pretty dope in Golarion lore

[surreal basin]

Not sure what they’d be shards of

[carmine egret]

Yeah but you've got options

Even "ancient extraplanar psychic gate" could probably be squeezed in

[surreal basin]

Yeah fair

[carmine egret]

Or! Make 'em from space

Or something to do with the Starstone

[surreal basin]

It’d have to be something important that broke in order to be the same vibes

[restive turtle]

https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/17w25fq/remaster_errata_breaking_news_wounded_no_longer/

[warped orbit]

very weird

[sinful gyro]

Seemed like a big change for them to not highlight, so good it was a typo I guess

[restive turtle]

Turns out the Dying/Wounded rules "clarification" was... actually just a mistake the whole time

[warped orbit]

wonder if it was a mistake, or they backpedaled after everyone hated it

[surreal basin]

Not really considering that most people seemed to hate it

[sinful gyro]

Sucks for anyone whsoe got the printed book though

[warped orbit]

no I meant that it had happened in the first place

[surreal basin]

Oh!

Yeah

Fair

[restive turtle]

I can believe it was a mistake easily - they kinda rushed this whole thing out

[warped orbit]

just kinda strange both ways

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[sinful gyro]

I bet it was part of the design at some point

[surreal basin]

Tbh I think people’s reaction to the errata stuff is a little unreasonable

[sinful gyro]

But was supposed to be changed before print

[surreal basin]

All books have errors and mistakes

For some reason people expected to see these books that were put together in a way shorter timespan than usual to be perfect

[sinful gyro]

People will never be happy unless it's literally perfect. And even then folks will disagree on interpretation so some will see it as having errors

[restive turtle]

The main pain point for errata for me isn't really that it has to happen, just that until recently they were overly committed to only pushing out errata with reprints (and the change away from that got derailed by the Remaster being rushed into production, further delaying errata). Just a few too many clear mistakes that have only survived this long because of that policy (like Arcane Cascade not working as intended RAW) - hopefully the big errata dump upcoming will address those nicely

[barren cipher]

there's a whole bunch of 'remaster compatibility' errata (including arcane cascade fix)

https://paizo.com/pathfinder/faq

Requirements You used your most recent action this turn to Cast a Spell or make a Spellstrike. You need to meet this requirement only to enter the stance, not to remain in it.

immediately followed by:

Prerequisites Arcade Cascade, Spellstrike

when your errata need errata

oh it has temporary fixes for stuff like champ as well

these are quite comprehensive

[warped orbit]

hm, the changes for Oscillating Wave are a bit eh

[barren cipher]

isn't plain ignition 2d4 now?

[warped orbit]

yes

it's still an improvement

when you amp it, you go from 2d4 to 1d10+1 splash

so the amp still doesn't do that much until you actually heighten a few times for the increased scaling to kick in

[barren cipher]

they didn't do a very good job on that at all

[surreal basin]

Bwuh?

[barren cipher]

not only does it make no sense it also still refers to produce flame

[warped orbit]

Frostbite when amped goes from 2d4 to 3d4

and you still get temp HP

Frostbite will still be the go to for Wave probably

much better range, and its a save now

[surreal basin]

Do y’all wanna hear a secret

About how I prep encounters

[restive turtle]

I'm surprised they bothered with these when they have clear replacements like Ignition

[warped orbit]

it's because you can still use legacy content

anything that wasn't reprinted with the same name is still usable

[surreal basin]

Sometimes when my players fight PL+3 encounters I go in before hand and lower some of the numbers like ac and saves when they’re like….. so high as to be frustrating

[surreal basin]

When a guys save modifier is literally the spell dc of the wizard I do a lil tweaking

[solar storm]

Vindicated haha

[worthy stump]

i do the same sometimes too, haha

[warped orbit]

Pages 304, 307, and 309: On all three pages, the daze spell description should read "Cloud a creature's mind and possibly stun it."
RIP Daze 😔

Pages 317 and 318: Both the bane and bless spells should have the aura trait.
oh finally

[barren cipher]

yeah they just copy pasted the rules that they copied from an earlier draft and pasted into release

[warped orbit]

Page 382: The tempest surge druid focus spell does a bit too much when a target critically fails their Reflex save. Remove all references to persistent electricity damage from the spell description and its heightened entry.
...

[barren cipher]

i genuinely don't know what their editors are doing, if they're missing stuff like this they must be in absolute hell

[surreal basin]

Yeah they finally put that shit to rest

I mean yeah they must be

This is essentially the core rulebook again but with weird changes and you have to do it in less than a year

[solar storm]

Given the impetus of these books coming out much faster than normal while also working on normal release schedules I imagine they're just overworked atm

[surreal basin]

And they can’t release anything else until they do this

[solar storm]

Since this is kind of brought about by legal necessity

[barren cipher]

i can say with absolute certainty that there's a 0% chance i would have missed this provided there was a sane version control and working environment

and i doubt i'm appreciably better an editor than any of their staff

[warped orbit]

oh also on a somewhat similar note
apparently a bunch of alchemical poisons got nerfed in the remaster

[surreal basin]

Yeah I saw that

Idk what the fuck the deal is with that

Alchemist better be getting insane buffs

Almost all damaging poisons saw two or more damage die reductions

[solar storm]

Yeah I'm curious where that's going

[trail nova]

... why the hell. It's not like I've ever seen poisons as a recomended build

[sinful gyro]

Yeah the theory seems to be, it'll be much easier to apply once we see alchemist remaster

[restive turtle]

I'm seeing a lot of people assume Toxicologist will get big enough buffs to compensate and... honestly, I'm expecting that won't be the case. At the very least, I don't think it's a safe bet like people seem to be hoping. There's not much in the way of big huge buffs in Remaster so far

[surreal basin]

I mean witch got big improvements

[trail nova]

I'm from 1e, but there Imunities alone made it a terrible idea

[sinful gyro]

I mean alchemist is also the class that gets the most push for an improvement /change, it's not a stretch

[warped orbit]

the thing is that even if Toxi gets buffs, it still kinda makes poisons worse for everyone else

[trail nova]

Was Toxi at all good before? Even by Alchemist standards?

[surreal basin]

Yeah idk what’s up

No

No it’s pretty bad

[sinful gyro]

Well there was the cheese but yeah

[trail nova]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[surreal basin]

You don’t really have the hit prod to consistently hit

And it’s save or suck

[warped orbit]

Fort is a notoriously good save on monsters

[surreal basin]

And with the- yeah that

[trail nova]

And Poisons aren't exactly great for anyone else.

[warped orbit]

and you need a failed save for poison to do anything

[sinful gyro]

I'm gonna assume the way it's gonna work will change

[trail nova]

Also a bunch of stuff is just immune.

[surreal basin]

It’s actually a huge problem of mine in 2e that they just

Gave everyone great fort saves

and called it a day

[warped orbit]

you mostly use Perpetual Poison to poison up everyone's weapons

[sinful gyro]

Like it's hard to judge when we effectively have half the picture

[warped orbit]

especially if you have an archer or something

[trail nova]

It's the same way in 1e.

[barren cipher]

i suspect they'll probably just bin it

[sinful gyro]

Bin what?

[barren cipher]

toxicologist

[sinful gyro]

I doubt it

[surreal basin]

At that point they might as well just get rid of player facing poisons

[sinful gyro]

Like, there's no logic to removing it

Especially after taking the time to change poisons

[surreal basin]

Maybe toxicologist will get to boost the damage dice of poison back up to normal lmao

[barren cipher]

i mean i just can't imagine a design space for toxicologist where you actually, you know

do anything with poisons aside from make and distribute them

alchemist-as-vending-machine is extremely strong and broadly unpopular

[surreal basin]

Yeah

I mean if they were good at attacking they could probably also deliver them…..

[thorny berry]

if they're willing to delete arcane trickster it seems distinctly possible

I think the only alternative is just a bunch of self-only 'when you use poisons...' bonuses

[surreal basin]

Maybe they’ll just delete alchemist :3

[thorny berry]

that would be extremely funny

[surreal basin]

We open up player core 2 and the alchemist section just says “nope”

I kinda hope they go back to the drawing board for alch tbh

And like

Try again entirely

[thorny berry]

I'm wary just because they're so locked into existing alchemical item design

mutagens were probably a mistake, using consumables is a huge pain in the ass

and that's before just the tedium of 1e-style prebuffing

[surreal basin]

Mutagens def have the possibility to be cool

It’s just that at least in my experience they’re heavily held back by

Being item bonuses

So you already have item bonuses to anything important usually

[thorny berry]

'mutagens in their current design paradigm' to be clear not like

as a concept

I think 1e's mutagens were usually self only?

Ironically I play an alchemist but his archetype removes mutagens

[solar storm]

That was not clear haha

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah 1e mutagens we’re very different

They weren’t “real” items so they could be strong

Because you couldn’t have them unless you were an alchemist

[thorny berry]

1e alchemist let you be much more of a nasty boy lol

[surreal basin]

Which I think is a big problem with alchemist actually is that like

[thorny berry]

yea man grow a third arm. give birth to a clone. its all groovy

[surreal basin]

Theoretically you’re just a money saving device + another warm body

You’re just making items people could buy

[thorny berry]

yeah that's kinda at their heart imo

[barren cipher]

anyone being able to do drugs is a real negative

[thorny berry]

item vending machine is too strong and also no fun

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Too Strong, and also a very niche fantasy that most people find disappointing

Because ime people want to use their items they make themselves

[thorny berry]

so I dunno how they pivot away from that at this point really

[surreal basin]

But alchemist isn’t really suited for that

With like

Caster level physical attacks

[thorny berry]

I mean I suppose it's possible they could go 'nope you can't give out items at all any more and then we're gonna buff the chassis' but that seems like a wild change this late in the game

[frank crystal]

Yah especially since like, alchemist isn’t the only class that can make the stuff

Any class can with the right skill feats

[barren cipher]

now would certainly be the time to do it

[frank crystal]

And some classes get whole subclasses for the stuff

[thorny berry]

yeah I'm in favor of the more drastic change the better frankly

but idk what they're going to be unwilling to throw out

[surreal basin]

This is what I mean is that they need to try again

[thorny berry]

agree

[surreal basin]

Just throw it all out and figure something out

Preferably that can’t be replicated by a big pile of gold

[thorny berry]

'surprise, alchemist is now an invoker-style caster that generates random chemicals each turn and combines them into spells :)'

[surreal basin]

That’d be cool

Alchemist being more of a Kineticist style thing would fuck

[thorny berry]

really they just need to like

decide on what 'the alchemist fantasy' actually is

since consensus seems to be that item dispenser ain't it

[frank crystal]

For me at least it’s blowing shit up at least

I like having a grenade class

[thorny berry]

well I mean that's another question right

how much do the subclasses diverge

[frank crystal]

It’s the one thing I’ve ever played as an alchemist

[barren cipher]

having mad bomber and hulking mutant on the same chassis is a hard sell yeah

[thorny berry]

I think the pitch I've been making for how to balance them with minimal sacred cow sacrifice is to limit each subclass to ONLY making their item subtype (or others at some significant penalty) and then buffing the shit out of them

[surreal basin]

Yeah that might be good

But that makes feats hard

[thorny berry]

true

[surreal basin]

Cause now you might be locked into a specific fear choice every level

*feat

[thorny berry]

gunslinger problem of 'and then you take your subclass feats'

who keeps yelling 'take fake out' at my house

I will never take fake out

[warped orbit]

tbf Eldritch Trickster has very few upsides over just taking a different Racket and just taking a dedication

[thorny berry]

sneak attacks on spell attacks, but rogue was always gonna be garbo with them so eh

I wouldn't be surprised to see it return as a class archetype in some fashion

[frank crystal]

That’s what I’m assuming they’re doing

[warped orbit]

IIRC archetypes in general are mostly Core 2, so we'll see

it's just a bit tough to speculate when its still half a year away

[trail nova]

Alchemist should have been archetypes, is my take.

Have an archetype for bombs, an archetype for poisons, an archetype for mutagens, one for alchemical crafting and handing out. Slap them on various classes, so you can have a fighter with scary mutagens or a bomb rogue.

[turbid dagger]

Alchemist is so weird
A whole class that's Super Prescient Consumable

[rustic cape]

Okay so the big counter argument to all of the “alchemists are fiddly and annoying to play” rhetoric is that there’s a type of player who specifically wants to be a fiddly, annoying consumable master

[warped orbit]

Alchi is a victim of being rewritten a couple times close to before the playtest was done

[rustic cape]

I have met these players! One of my close friends is one!

[warped orbit]

and Resonance being cut

[surreal basin]

Right but an entire core class dedicated to a very specific play set is

Maybe not amazing

Since niche player interests are mostly archetypes

[solar storm]

It’s core 2 :p

[surreal basin]

Core 2 is still core

Not that it really matters

[rustic cape]

Different classes appealing to different types of player seems entirely reasonable to me, tbh

[surreal basin]

I just think they should be good at using their own items

[solar storm]

Yeah

[surreal basin]

Is all

[solar storm]

I agree with that

[thorny berry]

honestly a subclass that's better at giving stuff out but maintains the weak chassis seems fine

[clever cobalt]

Wait what happened with the Alchemist

[surreal basin]

Them having to give it to others to be optimal is where the class loses me

[solar storm]

That’s actually all I’d change

[surreal basin]

Poisons got massively debugged

[warped orbit]

nothing yet

[surreal basin]

*buffed

So we’re speculating on toxicologist

[solar storm]

Better attack proficientcors

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[warped orbit]

though yeah, poisons got nerfed

[surreal basin]

Which led to “god I hope they make alchemist better”

[frank crystal]

Also yah if I can say anything definitive

[surreal basin]

As it always does because like

[frank crystal]

Give them normal martial scaling with bombs

[surreal basin]

points

[warped orbit]

we don't know the rest, because alchemical stuff is Core 2

[frank crystal]

Legitimately they should be the best bomb class in the game

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[frank crystal]

Bombs aren’t even that strong they should just have the same accuracy as a champion

[rustic cape]

I agree they could stand to be stronger

[warped orbit]

Bombs get good if you have the feats for it and can get value out of splash
but the circumstances for that to happen are pretty specific IME

[surreal basin]

Bombs are only strong if you assume every throw procs a weakness which is a wild assumption imo

[warped orbit]

even for Alchi bombs are mainly for splash and doing debuffs

[surreal basin]

And they need to hit for the debuffs :3

Which they struggle with

[warped orbit]

Skunk Bomb actually applies on the splash IIRC

[surreal basin]

It’s like the spellcaster attack spell thing people go on about but worse

[warped orbit]

though they get a better result on the splash i think

[surreal basin]

The way I think about alchemist is like

[rustic cape]

But Alch’s core fantasy is — and this admittedly isn’t super well-telegraphed — interacting heavily with the game’s crafting subsystems and developing an intimate and detailed grasp of a shitload of weird little options, and I think that’s fine.

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah that part is fine

[warped orbit]

they don't even really get that much benefit for crafting though

[surreal basin]

I just think it’s bad that they’re not very good at it

And they can be replicated with a pile of gold

Which isn’t

great

[warped orbit]

Infused Reagents aren't really like crafting

[solar storm]

Also saving a bunch of money is good

[warped orbit]

it is

[surreal basin]

Oh I mean yes

[rustic cape]

WBLmancy

Is strong

[surreal basin]

I’m not saying it’s not

But it feels a little bad

[solar storm]

Yeah you did?

[warped orbit]

it just IME feels bad both ways when your class feature is just "you have a lot of free consumables"

[surreal basin]

Sorry okay so when I said that it’s not great that they’re just money savers
You read that as “saving money is bad”

[trail nova]

I think Alch's consumables shouldn't be stuff you can just buy.

[surreal basin]

Yeah it’s just that it can be a struggle for them to feel special

Is what I mean

[solar storm]

They super should be imo

[carmine egret]

It's kinda interesting

[trail nova]

But this is me coming from Spheres of Might Alchemy users, who get... a lot of fun tricks.

That mostly aren't purchasable.

[solar storm]

It’s pretty core to the class fantasy for me

[warped orbit]

and a big problem for Alchi is also IMO that using items in combat is just kinda ass

[solar storm]

Otherwise you get the 5e “you’re a bespoke spellcaster with crafting flavor” problem

[carmine egret]

I really liked the 1e approach where alchemist stuff was all spells and class abilities, and I thought 2e was a big step back

[surreal basin]

That’s valid

[warped orbit]

so anything with a duration lower than 10 minutes already has it rought

[warped orbit]

I would prefer that to current Alchi personally

[carmine egret]

But 2e's approach has warmed on me

[surreal basin]

I definitely prefer them not just being a caster yeah

[trail nova]

Yeah, it really suffers from Pazio seeming to think it's broken to let people draw stuff easily.

[carmine egret]

Personally I would probably have fun with something closer to 1E but it would feel like a shame to go back instead of try to fix the new idea

[surreal basin]

Juggler alchemist is probably really good huh

In terms of alchemist builds

[warped orbit]

ehh, Juggling still takes a lot of actions

[trail nova]

(3.5 Quick Draw let you draw anything easily accessible as a free action. 1e made it just weapons. 2e made it a metastrike.)

[solar storm]

It’s fun at least haha

[frank crystal]

Honestly alchemists getting a like, bespoke item QuickDraw would be very nice

Something exclusive to them

[surreal basin]

That would be nice

[carmine egret]

Isn't Remaster already more liberal with draw economy?

[surreal basin]

Only vaguely

[warped orbit]

you have Swap now, but that's mostly it

[carmine egret]

I can see them going further with Alchi

[warped orbit]

which does help a bit

[rustic cape]

So this is a fun story: my friend was getting to know PF2e, and she comes in saying, “I want a class that does a ton of weird item stuff.” So me and a more experienced player immediately say, “thaum!” But she looks at thaum, and she doesn’t like it, because while it’s all about being decked out in weird junk thematically, it’s too clean, too streamlined. She says she wants to actually interact heavily with the normal item system, not have abilities that look like items. So we say alch. And she looks at it, and is immediately in love.

[trail nova]

It's not like the "TWF and rapidshot alchemists fires with sneak attack" rogue exists anymore.

[carmine egret]

Yeah that's very much what alch is lol

[surreal basin]

Yeah I’m happy for her

Basically I’m still of the opinion that I’d be mostly happy with alch if they had master in attacks

[solar storm]

The way I’d change alchemist is just better proficiencies and a subclass related “great work” analogue to the inventor innovation

[surreal basin]

They’d maybe still be a little underpowered but like

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[solar storm]

Something unique you’re learning how to make

[surreal basin]

Oooo yeah that’d be cool

[rustic cape]

But yeah, make ‘em stronger sounds good.

[surreal basin]

Our alchemist in extinction curse got master in bombs at like 19th level because

[warped orbit]

I think they need more structural changes than just proficiency

[turbid dagger]

So 'thief gets dex to damage on unarmed attacks' is officially actual rules text now right

[warped orbit]

yes

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[turbid dagger]

😌

[rustic cape]

It’s great

[turbid dagger]

Time to make that orc martial artist rogue

[rustic cape]

Wolf Style Thief agogo

[warped orbit]

Stumbling Stance Rogue is gonna be great I think

[turbid dagger]

Indeed, not sure if your the one who brought it up but Wolf Drag Head Stomp has got me feeling Things

[surreal basin]

I think it’d be nice for sure but I’m saying the prof thing would at least be an acceptable compromise

[thorny berry]

something like 'you can take ten minutes to dose each ally with a consumable, they can activate its effects as a single action without drawing it'

[warped orbit]

better action economy is a big one

also just more feats that let them improve their items in unique ways would be good I think

[solar storm]

There’s an item for that iirc

[thorny berry]

Is there?

[warped orbit]

there is that collar for mutagens

[surreal basin]

Yeah like bomber is the only one that can really do weird shit

With their item type

By changing the aoe shape

Or making the splash into persistent

[warped orbit]

there are a few mutagen upgrades, but I would like more of those yeah

[surreal basin]

Idek how toxic would work tho lol

[rustic cape]

Honestly because of how long it takes to get Stumbling Stance’s full schtick going on a non-monk, I think Wolf Stance via martial artist is gonna be the better pick, especially since Wolf Drag -> Head Stomp is uh amazing

[surreal basin]

Like

Poisons are so specific

There’s not a lot you can do with them that’s not number changes or making them virulent

[trail nova]

"Bypass immunity"

[solar storm]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1975

This

[surreal basin]

That would be nice

[trail nova]

"It's somehow a reflex save"

[warped orbit]

Wolf is also good, it just dings your AC for a bit, since you need to be unarmored for Wolf IIRC

[surreal basin]

Tbh a lot of rogues are already unarmored or close to it

Fellas lemme tell you

Not being able to wear any armor is

Sure an experience

[warped orbit]

yes, but it's still effectively -1 AC until you hit level 10 and get 20 Dex

[trail nova]

Weird-ass debuffs you can mix into the poison.

[surreal basin]

That would make sense yeah

Or a debuff you apply on a success

[warped orbit]

unless you mass chug Drakeheart mutagens