Like maybe a solar crest nerf, or maybe make Juggernaut a real hero again, maybe tune lesh a bit
#DOTA 2
gritty sparrow
viscid tapir
I didn't realize that the damage on jugg's spin got reduced so much
if it was just the attack speed scaling I think it'd be a fine way to change the ability up, but as it is it does very little damage
gritty sparrow
It's pretty bad
It's not even a net bonus late game
Before your shard applied your attack in the area
Now that's gone
Dunno if they'll buff things like PA or Jugg but there is like, 100% solar crest nerf
That thing needs like, a longer cool down or mana cost or something
olive moon
i dont get why crest gives 6 armor as passive stats, it's built out of ring of protection
i think u can add 50 mana cost, +2 seconds of cd and change the armor from 6 to 4 and the item is still overtuned
idk why ur allowed to self cast it either, old crest would have been cracked too if you were allowed to self cast that. just make it a buff ur friends item rather than having a core razor with an 8 min crest run you down at 450 speed with 200 attack speed and 1700hp
gritty sparrow
The game after you left us we were run down by a Viper/Death Prophet who both just rushed Solar Crest into Boots of Travel
Functionally immortal
There were other issues that game but it sure is funny to watch your carry try to kill someone through solar crest and as soon as they get through it someone else has placed another solar crest on them
gritty sparrow
SOLAR CREST
Armor bonus decreased from +6 to +4
All Attributes bonus decreased from +6 to +4
Shine Mana Cost increased from 0 to 100
No longer grants bonus movement speed nor attack speed when cast on self (same as armor)
Good start
WAIT
MORE IMPORTANTLY
RUBICK
SPELL STEAL
Cooldown decreased from 20/12/4s to 16/10/4s
frozen birchBOT
glossy stratus
Bloodpact no longer restores mana
I'm not surprised to see Bloodstone being nerfed, but this seems like a really weird way to do it
A Bloodstone that doesn't give mana regen doesn't feel like a Bloodstone
Vlad's being disassembleable is interesting, wonder which characters can use that
Basilius and Buckler both go into Guardian Greaves, but I can't think of anyone who wants those and Morbid Mask-based items
It could just be a decent value pick up on some cores though, Mask and Blades of Attack are good on any right clicker, Basilius and Buckler are nice laning pickups that are cheap enough you're only losing like 500g if you sell them later
viscid tapir
dk can go armlet, ac, arcanes, crit out of it
reef parcel
<@&877973728997294120> till and I are thinking of some dota. looking for 3 more players
stark linden
stark linden
could poke on fab?
reef parcel
yup yup on my way
gritty sparrow
Sure
frozen birchBOT
happy to help!
glossy stratus
<@&877973728997294120> till and I are thinking of some dota. looking for 3 more ...
I can maybe join game 2 if there is one
paper shell
Planning any more games?
viscid tapir
on tonight's guess the hero: the happiest I've ever been to see my teammate build 2 divine rapiers (not pictured includes an aghanim's blessing) I remembered wrong, no aghs:
Answer: ||Sniper||
glossy stratus
2 divines but couldn't afford to upgrade to Maelstrom, apparently
Assuming they had aghs blessing must've been a terrifying ulti though
viscid tapir
oh right, should have included that
olive moon
i think u can add 50 mana cost, +2 seconds of cd and change the armor from 6 to ...
i was right
gritty sparrow
on tonight's guess the hero: the happiest I've ever been to see my teammate buil...
olive moon
its gotta be sb for the khanda 1shot build
gritty sparrow
They nerfed that a bit this patch, just making his Khanda proc only activate when he actually hits the charge
reef parcel
<@&877973728997294120> dota?
stark linden
gritty sparrow
I could in a moment
glossy stratus
I might be able to join for game 2, but literally in an AD draft rn lol
reef parcel
okay that's 4, that's solid
viscid tapir
apologies if my spectator curse kicks in
glossy stratus
I won't have time for a game 2 btw
Side note, this is one of the more disgusting builds I've had recently in AD
manic nimbus
thats pretty good
pearl chasm
Idk if I’m just getting lucky but Veno feels super strong this patch to me
He has an incredible lane presence and feels good against a lot of the current carries
glossy stratus
I feel like the vision and split push are really nice on the new big map
Er, new-ish
gritty sparrow
pearl chasm
I feel like the vision and split push are really nice on the new big map
This is also a factor. With the bigger map, poison ward vision and being able to temporarily watch areas without committing a ward there feels much better. Especially with tower pushes and defense.
reef parcel
<@&877973728997294120> anyone up for a game
stark linden
just got done eating!
olive moon
im down
cursive wing
hi
cursive wing
im about to warm up a bowl of chili
reef parcel
I'll wait to see if more people are up for playing
cursive wing
but that takes like 4 minutes of prep etc
reef parcel
but that's already 5 which is good
cursive wing
what voice channel
viscid tapir
ah heck
reef parcel
we can use activity 2
paper shell
Dang that filled up fast
reef parcel
tom do you wanna play
viscid tapir
slightly distracted
viscid tapir
fine by me
paper shell
Actually I didn't realize the time
vapid ledge
tbf 3 more and we can get an in-house
manic nimbus
oof
stark linden
i dont think an inhouse will be any kind of balanced lol
reef parcel
I can spectate and drink apple juice
paper shell
probably not
paper shell
A "coach" if you will
vapid ledge
how many new players do we even have (if i count as new)
viscid tapir
reef parcel
@devout juniper
paper shell
They have started their game
violet talon
heck
reef parcel
@violet talon you still wanna join
gritty sparrow
I spectated the end of that last game
Seeing the puck just merc people was brutal.
gritty sparrow
Oh god
violet talon
Whooo might be another person to give a go if Dark Willow gets banned?
manic nimbus
lion is pretty strong atm
viscid tapir
lion's pretty strong and simple
witch doctor is also in that vein
though both are kind of squishy spellcasters early on
violet talon
I do have a bit of experience with what's their face... Warlock. Not much though.
manic nimbus
warlock is cool but does require you to use a summon
violet talon
I've been... alright with that. Played the Lost Vikings on HotS before. Not WELL but... played.
manic nimbus
okay yeah then you should be good
light urchin
lion is pretty easy and also really funny
violet talon
If I wanted to give a try at learning a more CC/tanky character who would be a good idea?
Probably not the best while I'm learning but got to try em out
glossy stratus
A lot of offlaners fit that niche - Centaur is fairly well-rounded
Earthshaker is a bit tricky with fissure blocks but can be run core or support as needed
gritty sparrow
If I wanted to give a try at learning a more CC/tanky character who would be a g...
Do you know if you'd want to play core or support
violet talon
I do enjoy playing support usually, in League I've played stuff like Braum and Zilean the most.
glossy stratus
Clockwerk is a lot of fun if you like initiating
light urchin
Abbadon perhaps
gritty sparrow
Treant Protector, Orge Magi and Clockwerk are good supports for that.
glossy stratus
Abbadon fits the tanky side, but not great CC
Elder Titan is great CC but definitely on the trickier side
violet talon
From what I've seen of ogre magi might be an idea to try then out because I can just luck into doing amazing stuff as well
violet talon
I have been doing a bit of the baby mode, and some against bots to get a feel.
Honestly Muerta is a real fun character
but much more carry
glossy stratus
Support Muerta can be good, but they did nerf it recently
Also her bouncy shot is real tricky to use well
violet talon
I do enjoy her ultimate as well. Just pop into another plane but keep shooting folk.
gritty sparrow
I was bored yet again at work and made a Rubick 7.35 tier list
This time, less nuance! Just straight what I feel when I see a certain hero in my game and if I think I can use them as a valid target for spell steal to get something useful
People are mostly ordered within their tiers as well for this
Didn't bother with F tier I am realizing but oh well they all suck to go against
manic nimbus
"rubick likes games where the other team does not have a pos1" hmm this makes sense to me
gritty sparrow
Yeah basically. Too many attack damage modifying things
Morph is only up that high because you can essence shift to strength and occasionally get the dream moment of, morph turns into your earthshaker and casts fissure
Now your team gets two fissure
glossy stratus
Kind of surprised Sven is so high, his stun is nice but it seems like he would afll under the same category as a lot of the D/F-tiers where he'll just blink on you and kill you
I suppose at least you can precast your lift on him
I guess that's why he's below CK
manic nimbus
his stun is a really really good steal and warcry is nice I guess
glossy stratus
And if you do end up getting God's Strength at least it slightly helps with last hitting and objectives I guess
gritty sparrow
His stun is very good is the reason, and at least with clever blink usage you can reliably not get caught by him
Very good, obvious when he presses it and honestly he's probably going to go in on someone else first if you just have a blink to position yourself well
Plus yeah the one other button really is Warcry which is something at least, if you get shard
manic nimbus
warcry is imo super underrated
I have played a lot of support sven and I think its really good
maybe I should do more of it actually again, with solar crest
gritty sparrow
warcry is imo super underrated
See, my hesitancy on warcry is just that it doesn't get buffed in any way on Rubick. If they wanted to open up a whole new genre of spells that are good to steal they'd add the Debuff duration buff Rubick gets to also be Buff duration
That'd be lit
Tbh when I read the patch notes and read the Bloodstone aoe thing at first my literal first thought was "New spell buff stat??????? Do Rubick get?????????" And no Rubick do not get, yet at least. Just give me like, +25 spell aoe on Rubick
Please Icefrog
manic nimbus
That would be nice but it's still just fine to get
reef parcel
<@&877973728997294120> chrimbus doter?
stark linden
gabemas dota lets go
reef parcel
let's wait for 2 more
gritty sparrow
Sure
glossy stratus
I could dot an A
cursive wing
<@&877973728997294120> chrimbus doter?
soon
gritty sparrow
gritty sparrow
Before that last fight
I had the thought of
"Should I buy out for replacing my boots with aeon disk?"
"....nah, I can wait for him to get hit first"
And then I didn't.
manic nimbus
yeah I just kinda messed up a lot of fights tbh
the new trees really throw me
even my farming was weird
reef parcel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaiDngFlMwM @cursive wing @stark linden @manic nimbus @gritty sparrow
stark linden
that was fast
reef parcel
i'm getting better
cursive wing
Dota2 bug ruins xmas
gritty sparrow
I am reminded that I should get a new mic
vapid ledge
i'm tempted to say "my uncle works at valve, do you want me to submit a ticket, queen"
gritty sparrow
Also, minor thought
I think my build on Medusa could have worked
But I built it kinda irrespective of our team comp
It was Phylactry into aghs
God, actually that'd be a good Medusa mid build
manic nimbus
yeah I just think we had an awkard comp
honest meteor
<@&877973728997294120> Anyone wanna make some grievous but fun mistakes in like an hour? 👀
reef parcel
I could maybe hang in an hour
cursive wing
ok
reef parcel
<@&877973728997294120> till and I are free and looking to dota
honest meteor
Logging in but also just saying good night to a friend!
cursive wing
yes
stark linden
its not too late for one game for me if you dont have a fifth
cursive wing
calling my buddy o the phone to invite him to a stack
reef parcel
jennyyyy
stark linden
i was brushing my hair!
stark linden
calling my buddy o the phone to invite him to a stack
oh with your friend that looks like 5?
reef parcel
theyflower said their friend isn't available
so we're missing 1
but you should also sleeep
lark? 👀
glossy stratus
I can mmmmaybe join a game 2
reef parcel
okay jenny's locked in then
glossy stratus
But sadly cannot help pressure Jenny into going to sleep
stark linden
stark linden
steeeeeeeve @honest meteor
stark linden
My internet went down right as we started queueing lol
Internet is back
But I'm in bed
Gl with the game
viscid tapir
rollercoaster of a chat to come back and check on
pearl chasm
Wyvern being good again makes me happy, I love her kit
glossy stratus
Khanda is really nice with Acorn Shot
Probably not good enough to make core Hoodwink a good idea
gritty sparrow
Can you proc Khanda with a point target while still creating a tree?
glossy stratus
Sadly no
gritty sparrow
Well
gritty sparrow
Better hope they're near trees then
glossy stratus
Just gotta have an initiator friend with an iron branch
gritty sparrow
I always keep the alt cast on
glossy stratus
I never used it this game because, y'know, Ability Draft
gritty sparrow
I only briefly turn it off if I am by myself and just farming a wave
gritty sparrow
I never used it this game because, y'know, Ability Draft
Ah.
glossy stratus
But I'd be surprised if it procs both tree and Khanda
glossy stratus
Alas
Cursed suggestion: They should unify all "counts as a tree" things, and also make NP treants and Treant Protector count as trees
Bushwack someone to Nature's Guise
Let Treant be invisible on top of a NP treant
...admittedly, Timber Chaining to Treant would be a really fun interaction
manic nimbus
I played an interesting game with an aghs khanda sniper
reef parcel
I played an interesting game with an aghs khanda sniper
I clicked into this channel and for a fraction of a second I thought this was some sort of afghan war thing
pearl chasm
I’ve seen a lot of Snipers going it with mixed levels of success
manic nimbus
It seemed to work OK but we had a very aggressive front line making space
I have seen omni using it a few times too and that seems strong
Like phylactery harpoon khanda
viscid tapir
I wanted to try that build, unfortunately got a bit stomped so could barely finish the harpoon
but it seems fun on omni
manic nimbus
Aussie pubs are super chaotic at times though
So it's hard to evaluate how some things work
It seems to do tons of damage and be tough
I saw it as a mid and I think it makes sense there
glossy stratus
Wait, does Khanda count as an instant attack? If so, does that mean you get two Hammers of Purity plus the Khanda attack each time you cast it?
Nvm, I don't think it is
Still very good of course
gritty sparrow
I hatevthe khanda sniper build
In part because it's been on my team too often
And the dark hand that guides them inevitably steers them towards rapier
Also one of those things where it's countered by: any disjoint, linkens, blademail, lotus, honestly just any magic resist lowers the khanda damage significantly
glossy stratus
Yeah, I don't hate the idea of getting aghs Khanda as part of a build - especially if you get an aghs blessing from Rosh - but building specifically around it seems dubious
pearl chasm
I have seen omni using it a few times too and that seems strong
Aggro Omni in general feels strong this patch, we’ve been running him as a 3 and its brutal how much damage gets done.
manic nimbus
Yeah the sniper build is kinda a meme
Can you crit the khanda hit or is it just magic damage added?
reef parcel
<@&877973728997294120> wanna dota guys
stark linden
cursive wing
<@&877973728997294120> wanna dota guys
yes
manic nimbus
yea
glossy stratus
I can probably join in a minute or so
reef parcel
hell yeah
viscid tapir
aah late to see ping
gritty sparrow
Can you crit the khanda hit or is it just magic damage added?
The magic damage added cannot crit, no. With sniper you can crit the auto attack applied by your aghs shot but the khanda part is just going to be flat. It double dips in value from Rapier since it gets both the attack damage bonus and is still counted as a spell for the spell amp though
stark linden
https://youtu.be/s8jq_H9RsOI @viscid tapir @reef parcel
manic nimbus
right yeah makes sense sly
gritty sparrow
https://youtu.be/s8jq_H9RsOI <@203733729577926656> <@140921736588689408>
@viscid tapir YOU FUCKING LEGEND
stark linden
im a bit loud, adjusted it so it clips it with two audio tracks
viscid tapir
https://youtu.be/s8jq_H9RsOI <@203733729577926656> <@140921736588689408>
was a fun one
gritty sparrow
I didn't even understand what you were doing until I saw the rapier in there
viscid tapir
didn't realize fountain dispels smokes now
violet talon
Insult to injury is not a strong enough word for doing that
gritty sparrow
Wait sorry Tom I rewatched it and have to flame you for not microing your courier and getting it killed by tower
viscid tapir
was a little bit busy with some other micro, but you're right, i'm bad and got my courier killed
glossy stratus
Oh that's beautiful
noble tusk
absolute legend
gritty sparrow
One of my favorite things on rubick
Seeing someone afraid to cast a spell
Usually after I have stolen it earlier that game and terrorized them with it
See: the poor shadow shaman who gave me Shackle
pearl chasm
Shaman is a treat for Rubick, so many good spells
manic nimbus
honestly sometimes its just the play to not let rubick get some spell
I remember when beastmaster axes were busted facing a rubick and like
I'd start the throw and stop it into birds and stuff like that
pearl chasm
You know its going to be a fun Rubick game when the Pudge doesn’t properly spam rot to keep you from stealing hook
reef parcel
<@&877973728997294120> anyone up for games
olive moon
I'll join for game 2 if there is one
glossy stratus
I'm good to Dota now btw
paper shell
🤔 yall have space for another?
viscid tapir
I think so
reef parcel
yes yes yes
olive moon
I'll join for game 2 if there is one
i lied im v sleepy enjoy ur dota friends
manic nimbus
sleep well!
manic nimbus
hmm
sky agh now makes 3 arcane bolts
how long has it been like that? I remember just 2
glossy stratus
Sure, give me a couple minutes
gritty sparrow
I have been dota'd out unfortunately
reef parcel
super valid ser sly
gritty sparrow
I lost a game last night because the enemy team wouldn't pause
And the two people not in our stack wouldn't spend their pause
reef parcel
take as long a break as you'd like o/
reef parcel
well we have a 4 stack at least, so that's lovely
stark linden
Sure, give me a couple minutes
dota is downloading so you do have a minute
cursive wing
hi
reef parcel
well that's 5
reef parcel
oh we're just getting together for our first game
do you wanna spectate and or play?
idle pendant
i'm down to play!
reef parcel
Sure, give me a couple minutes
lark you busy? 👀
reef parcel
hell yeah that works out o/
gritty sparrow
As an aside I had the thought just now about crystal maiden and I did confirm that the individual ice explosions in her ult are also increased by Bloodstone radius
gritty sparrow
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/18usztm/void_in_my_team_insane_chrono_te...
||INSTANTLY REFRESHERED AND CHRONO'D HIS TWO TEAMMATES THAT LIVED AGAIN||
reef parcel
LOL
cursive wing
stark linden
👀
glossy stratus
👀
reef parcel
lmao
olive moon
👀
glossy stratus
(I'll be on in like 2 mins)
cursive wing
yhi
viscid tapir
heck, missed the ping
delicate jungle
whats a good hero for people new to the game in fourth position
paper shell
I like Undying a lot 🙂
violet talon
The hero I've played in that position (as someone new and mostly placing myself in fourth) is Dark Willow
I've also heard Lion is good for it
paper shell
Honestly the answer is heros you like 🙂 (Who also fit the role)
Dazzle can be good and easy to understand
I have a friend who loves hoodwink 4
A lot of "traditional 4s" are fairly complex because they're roamers and that can be a complicated thing to do right
Also, let me know if there's another game though looking at the activity channel there almost looks like theres enough people for 2 games lol
reef parcel
@paper shell you wanna play? 👀
paper shell
Uh gimme like a min I just started a yugioh duel
reef parcel
Uh gimme like a min I just started a yugioh duel
the trans experience
paper shell
I'll win fast >:)
weary flax
Hey, I'm watching the stream because I've been a little curious about trying this
weary flax
(Knowing nothing about mobas but hearing so many horror stories about moba communities lol)
viscid tapir
paper shell
😍
gritty sparrow
<@&877973728997294120>
light urchin
gotta figure out getting a hard drive so I can actually fit ridonkulos gigagames like dota on this laptop
delicate jungle
how do i get the dota 2 rank
reef parcel
how do i get the dota 2 rank
done
delicate jungle
ok thanks
gritty sparrow
whats a good hero for people new to the game in fourth position
That does remind me, if you want to learn how I learned in a very difficult way
Play rubick!
He kinda
Forces you to learn what the spells do. Or you suffer.
A lot. You will suffer a lot. But he's very fun. Easier ones would definitely be ones already recommended, but I will throw in Techies is a fun one to play
glossy stratus
Jump in the deep end, start with Ability Draft
(Or, more sensibly, Single Draft is good for getting a wide variety)
weary flax
Is there a general beginner guide somewhere for the game?
gritty sparrow
Do you have any prior moba experience
reef parcel
Is there a general beginner guide somewhere for the game?
there are tutorials in game, that I do recommend, and I'll also point at bot games as a great place to get your feet wet. I'll look for newbie resources online
barren summit
Oh this'll be nice
I've been wanting to hop on but I don't want to drag folks down
viscid tapir
it should be said that the tutorials are out of date and broken sometimes. one of them wants you to disassemble something for an item that has since been removed.
vapid ledge
Reminds me of fighting game combo trials
lucid sluice
it should be said that the tutorials are out of date and broken sometimes. one ...
small indie company valve
also Hi guy (eeehhhhhh) who hasnt played in a bit, whats out there to see whats good right now?
weary flax
Do you have any prior moba experience
Have none, actually. I thought maybe a decent space like this would make trying things out easier.
I know League is a thing too, but that fandom sounds incredibly toxic.
light urchin
It's... not technically better on DOTA but DOTA is better about shadow-realming especially nasty people
queuing up here and whatnot gives you a better shot though
lucid sluice
yeah ive never had an experience with any of the people in here being toxic
the risk you run is the enemy being toxic, but you can just... kill them about it
kill them with kindness? wrong. Culling Blade.
light urchin
yeah ive never had an experience with any of the people in here being toxic
(if you do let us know, that shit doesn't fly)
reef parcel
it should be said that the tutorials are out of date and broken sometimes. one ...
oof thanks for the heads up, won't point people at the tutorials
viscid tapir
I think there's some that still work, and kind of explain how to use stuff
but one wants you to disassemble mask of madness into a quarterstaff
manic nimbus
I'm a little miffed that like
sticky napalm no longer works with mage slayer
and it was mentioned in none of the patches or anything
delicate jungle
Uhhhh I’ll be there in 20 mins or so if yall will have me?
reef parcel
if you're joining in 20 minutes, maybe game 2. depends on if we can find other people
delicate jungle
Yeah
manic nimbus
gl
glossy stratus
I can actually join for one Dota, before I vanish into the void forever!
reef parcel
oh that's 4 then 👀
theyflower is 20 minutes into a game that may take a while
we can 4 stack
delicate jungle
i want to play more dota...
viscid tapir
the curse sets in...
I recommend going through a bot game to make sure all your controls are what you want
I don't think "neutral item" is bound by default?
and that's a pretty important thing to set
light urchin
dudes rock
viscid tapir
rock dudes
delicate jungle
is there any way to make an ability always target the ground instead of a hero if it can do both?
ie hoodwink's q
OH it just has a special function to alt cast it
reef parcel
OH it just has a special function to alt cast it
yeah was gonna mention
alt casting it is strictly ground targeting. you can set per char keybinds too
delicate jungle
ok thanks
So how do yall manage the courier? When is it safe to have it deliver you items?
reef parcel
So how do yall manage the courier? When is it safe to have it deliver you items?
Generally speaking it's always safe to deliver items, they beeline to you from the base and that line is generally safe. Situations where it's not safe are often kinda transient
If you suddenly end up in a fight you may need to micro your courier away if it's near
Sending your courier to the secret shop can be done with a single hotkey (w) but if the enemy controls that area it's dangerous
You'll want to fly manually near the edge of the map
delicate jungle
Does the courier respawn or does it stay permanently dead
delicate jungle
Ok
reef parcel
It's like your stand, it's a second hero with a lot of perks
It has tons of hotkeys, and also "courier deliver items" is also a hotkey
Which just combines grabbing everything you own, bringing it to you, then returning to base
Oh, also as a general rule, you can hold alt to gain more information
Alt over any ability, alt over your gold, alt alt alt
Alt even shows camp spawn boxes
delicate jungle
is attack move ever actually useful
cursive wing
If I think my courier will be in danger I will shift queue a move command so that it comes from a safe angle
Most often when I don't want it to path through lane jungle
cursive wing
is attack move ever actually useful
Yes
If you are chasing someone through trees you can attack move and your hero will immediately start to attack if you see them for a brief moment
This means you don't have to click
delicate jungle
I see
gritty sparrow
is attack move ever actually useful
It's also useful if you are controlling something that isn't your hero and just need it to hit anything it sees, like an illusion or pet you control
Just send it down the lane and have it kill things
delicate jungle
Yeah like an rts unit
when the only rts you’ve ever played any significant amount is zero k and you suck at actually microing things
manic nimbus
also worth noting the courier dying gives the whole enemy team money
its not a huge deal but it is worth avoiding where possible
though often you gotta risk it in losing games
gritty sparrow
The courier respawn time is also roughly 2 minutes
Shorter early and longer later on
If it's carrying your items then you cannot get those items until the courier respawns
It's kinda why the secret shop exists tbh. When a team controls the map they can just block off the secret shop and snipe couriers that try to go there
cursive wing
Also you don't get the items which can be a big deal
Delaying the wards you bought by 4 minutes can mean multiple successful ganks
Or a farming item is delayed
gritty sparrow
Also you don't get the items which can be a big deal
Very specifically what I just mentioned with "until the courier respawns".
reef parcel
is attack move ever actually useful
extremely, it's just easier than clicking on a unit
if I'm trying to last hit a single unit near me I'll generally just attack move instead
I'll often attack move when dealing with like, a phantom lancer illusion swarm and stuff too
glossy stratus
It's also nice for if you need to shop or check enemy items, you can a-move to finish farming a camp while you do so
gritty sparrow
While testing for something completely unrelated I learned that if on Lion, you can get multiple finger stacks from someone if you finger them multiple times and they die in the stack window
The more you know, I guess
reef parcel
if someone fingers me multiple times I'm definitely dying in the stack window
light urchin
hmm.
serene arrow
yeah i wasn't gonna say anything but uh
reef parcel
if it's too much I'll delete it lol
light urchin
I was trying to avoid making that joke
violet talon
Why?
light urchin
because it was too easy
delicate jungle
hey @manic nimbus didnt you say that hoodwink's accent sounds like a new zealander thats been in britian for 10 years
vapid ledge
oh does hoodwink english also have an accent?
she has a sichuan accent in mandarin
which is super adorable
reef parcel
hey <@175103370120527872> didnt you say that hoodwink's accent sounds like a new...
in australia for 10 years
delicate jungle
ah fair
delicate jungle
dota later tonight perhaps?
lucid sluice
delicate jungle
<@&877973728997294120> oh boy time to play more dota 2!
idle pendant
oh ho? dota?
olive moon
dotoa?
delicate jungle
i am a bit new so
reef parcel
<@&877973728997294120> oh boy time to play more dota 2!
I laughed, you got me
till will be home in like 20 minutes and we may be around for dota then, not sure, I'm gonna wait for him
gritty sparrow
Make sure to spectate his game to curse him
Whenever Tom spectates my games we start losing
paper shell
He's good at that
manic nimbus
I think I'll pass for today
olive moon
curse successful
viscid tapir
betrayed
delicate jungle
anyone for painbox i mean dota 2?
reef parcel
if you guys need me to fill a fifth slot I could do that
otherwise I'll probably take today slow
gritty sparrow
I am still salty about losing a game last week cause the enemy wouldn't let us pause for literally any time
delicate jungle
should i ping again
viscid tapir
seems unlikely tonight, sorry punch
delicate jungle
thats fine
delicate jungle
<@&877973728997294120> perhaps?
stark linden
👀
delicate jungle
hop in then
olive moon
👀
reef parcel
oh that's 4
paper shell
Henlo
viscid tapir
i can come spectate/coach if you'd like
paper shell
reef parcel
@delicate jungle
reef parcel
viscid tapir
paper shell
weary flax
Just installed. A little overwhelmed but I guess I'll go through the ingame tutorials first.
viscid tapir
if you get stuck, there's a chance the tutorial is broken and out of date
cursive wing
i have seen many reddit posts about how the part of the tutorial where you disassemble manaboots is broken because you can't do that anymore
lucid sluice
i have seen many reddit posts about how the part of the tutorial where you disas...
YOU CAN'T?!
stark linden
its a really recent change
glossy stratus
(Or perhaps the past)
karmic grove
getting back into dota2 after ages of not playing it, seems like I still have some idea of what to do
Dawnbreaker's really fun, kinda character that's made for me
reef parcel
arcane boots not requiring the secret shop is still fucking with me
gritty sparrow
Dawn has the fun effect of also just
Being able to power farm constantly then just use your ult to join the fight when it happens
And it pierces bkb now! So people are forced to respect you
karmic grove
yeah, that's great
the aghs on it is rad too, got some huge value out of it last game I played
I don't think any of the 3 physical damage dealers build mkb to deal with the dodge it grants
gritty sparrow
It isn't too uncommon for dawns to rush that nowadays
The heal it provides is a bit absurd
karmic grove
it is a bit, yeah
delicate jungle
what differentiates a 4 hero vs a 5 hero like, kit wise?
also is there any online reosurce that can tell you what heroes work well in what positions
glossy stratus
Generally it's a matter of how much they get value from/require items and levels - 4s tend to really want certain items (Blink is a big one) or have multiple abilities that they want to level up quickly
5s are the heroes that are the most relatively effective with minimal farm - a level 6 CM with 2000 net worth can cast Frostbite just as well as a level 30 one
(Not strictly accurate any more with talents, but the gist is the same)
Some 4s scale well enough they can even transition into a more core role - Enchantress is a good example
Not familiar with any online guides, unfortunately
gritty sparrow
While I don't know a good list of the roles since things change around a good bit
I think a good way to think about it is remembering that the roles, at their base form, are just about your gold priority
Someone like, say, Lich or Treant Protector or Witch Doctor or Oracle largely do the same things with 500 gold or 4000 gold
Plenty have items they'd like but, in a more meta sense, a position 5 can buy support items that help their p1 carry
You can buy all support items and it won't be a detriment to a p5, as opposed to a p4, who is like a support but greedier. P4s are like Bounty Hunter, Earth Shaker, Hoodwink or Rubick
People who can build those support items, but also everything they do is purely offense based and they all have items they want to build for themselves
This is older but Jenkins has a lot of videos that are evergreen regardless of the patch
And the start of the video talks about the roles p4s and p5s do
reef parcel
as usual I can't get more than 20 seconds into any of this guy's videos
the angry videogame guy is a gimmick that was old in 2010
glossy stratus
While less of a hard-and-fast rule, P4s tend to be a bit more geared towards rotating as well
vapid ledge
wait is blue orb no longer secret shop/never been secret shop?
vapid ledge
arcane boots not requiring the secret shop is still fucking with me
or is this due to a change in recepie?
vapid ledge
https://youtu.be/jVN6kc12pbU?si=i7fv6lWPgdGIcYTy
ah... i've been playing 3 too safe
cursive wing
(Or perhaps the past)
ring of aquilla
cursive wing
wait is blue orb no longer secret shop/never been secret shop?
energy booster is still scret shop. lifetube and mana lifetube are now in base
vapid ledge
i see
manic nimbus
3s are more farmy these days but imo either the 2 or the 3 needs to make plays in the early to mid
And make fights with the supports and such
pearl chasm
Its one of the bigger issues I see in 3’s in a lot of my games, sometimes they just farm nonstop while the game happens elsewhere.
manic nimbus
Yeah 3s imo mostly should be somewhat active unless they are like really taking over a good chunk of map
glossy stratus
That's one of the nice things about blink dagger 3s, they have a very clear timing of when you should go make plays
manic nimbus
I think if you get their tower early and pressure their 1 out of their jungle on safe you can def farm a bunch
Or like the nearby jungle
(and preserve your tower)
What to do with 3s that need specific items when you lose lane is something I have not quite figured out
cursive wing
good news everyone
glossy stratus
Congrats!
viscid tapir
🎉
glossy stratus
What to do with 3s that need specific items when you lose lane is something I ha...
A lot of them traditionally either have the ability to catch up in the jungle (Centaur, Axe) or can fall back in farm and still make moves (Earthshaker, Clock)
For some of the more recent farm-reliant ones I'm less sure - e.g. Dawnbreaker without farm isn't going to be doing very well
cursive wing
Dawn still does a lot of damage early with hammer throw
manic nimbus
yeah I mean the thing is how much should you be catching up vs making shit happen
cursive wing
She can safely farm waves to push out and then farm camp if scary
Ideally you catch up in a way that makes shit happen
reef parcel
<@&877973728997294120> wanan dotaa
cursive wing
Hello I
steel forge
I will just need to update my game first
paper shell
Already a 5?
stark linden
yep
paper shell
gl hf 😄
stark linden
@manic nimbus cant hear you/maybe you cant hear us
delicate jungle
<@&877973728997294120> would anyone else wanna play if we got 5?
snapfire is... cool but i think i like disruptor better. and i wanna try out venomancer and i think 3 heroes is fine for now
although im mostly focusing on hoodwink rn, but looking at 2 others bcos of bans
can disruptor be played as a 4 well or is he more of a 5
glossy stratus
I would like to, but sadly am still out of town (and thus no computer that can handle Dota)
delicate jungle
ok
gritty sparrow
Disrupter is more a 4
glossy stratus
Disruptor can be either really
gritty sparrow
The reason being that Disrupter is a hero that is really really good when he is ahead and has people that can kill someone
And then he sucks if you are behind.
glossy stratus
He's a bit weak of a laner, so he needs a position 1 that's strong in lane to run as a 5
But isn't very item-dependent
delicate jungle
And then he sucks if you are behind.
ah
gritty sparrow
Ursa or Juggernaut would be good examples of position 1s that go well with him
But as a support you are usually sentenced to first pick, so that's a bit hard to predict
glossy stratus
(Ursa and Jugg in particular are nice as heroes who can really ruin someone's day if they get on top of them, but have very limited built-in catch)
glossy stratus
I don't know about best spell in the game - if nothing else, X Marks is a lot more flexible and is much more dangerous with the BKB changes - but it's one of those abilities that warps the entire game
idle pendant
<@&877973728997294120> would anyone else wanna play if we got 5?
oh i'm like an hour late on this but i'd be down if you're still playing
if not that's all good
delicate jungle
i dont think we'd get enough
idle pendant
unforc
delicate jungle
@viscid tapir doter?
viscid tapir
in neb right now
delicate jungle
oh fair
lucid sluice
man solo queueing in this game gives me the sad
viscid tapir
I've never felt too bad
occasionally get a bad game but for the most part they're kind of relaxing
manic nimbus
I feel like I get a lot more good games than not
some are a mess if people fight over lanes or something but thats relatively rare
viscid tapir
do you usually queue ranked or unranked? I usually play ranked solo so there's not much arguing over lanes
lucid sluice
Playing ranked when your rank is undecided and you are put through herald hell is a uniquely painful experience
It's not even the skill level of players, I can deal with bad play and I'm no pro myself but man the toxicity and lack of a real language filter is just awful. I hate it so much can't wait to do it tomorrow
manic nimbus
I play unranked and usually its fine but occasionally some shit happens
esp if people pick a weird 3 and someone thinks its a 4 or something
manic nimbus
@viscid tapir why the fuck did I say it
serene arrow
uh oh
cursive wing
i get really bad match quality after around 1am
i don't queue ranked usually past like 11pm
i find that around 7pm est i get really good games on useast
usually the people who play dota after work have already warmed up and are in a good headspace and
glossy stratus
I basically only play Ability Draft when I'm solo, the pool of players is small enough that I've got a fair chunk of the toxic people pre-muted
It's quite convenient
reef parcel
I had the weirdest dream last night, I dreamt that I joined like game 2 or 3 in a game series where people were playing dota and I just learned that techies had an aghanim's scepter that would like... deploy a little emplacement that slowly generates moving bombs that detonate and create these temporary fields
and in those warped areas, all spells that healed would do damage instead and all spells that dealt damage would heal instead. abilities that target enemies would target allies instead, abilities that target allies would target enemies instead.
so @stark linden and @manic nimbus had a strategy where they'd like, set up an inversion field as they sieged the dire base high ground and use lich's ult as a constantly bouncing healing bomb between teammates sticking close together
stark linden
reef parcel
anyway I woke up and thought damn. I wonder if chain frost is the best way to exploit that
should ask the dota channel
stark linden
quick, message icefrog
weary flax
I'm unsure on what sort of role I'd want to prioritise, or at least which would be easiest to deal with. Feels like there's a lot to juggle.
stark linden
you cant walk up into dire base and go "cheesed to meet you"
and then they just die
reef parcel
I'm unsure on what sort of role I'd want to prioritise, or at least which would ...
watch footage online and see if you find a hero you'd like? dota is a pretty high juggle quotient kinda game in general yeah haha
viscid tapir
sounds like you could just living armor the enemy towers to death
stark linden
LOL
reef parcel
sounds like you could just living armor the enemy towers to death
aw shit you're a genius
wait... wouldn't backdoor protection trigger?
stark linden
probably
reef parcel
but you can do it to enemy heroes
global range
that must be fun for sniping
oh!
dawnbreaker ult!
wait no that'll heal them
hmm
it'll still stun them though
viscid tapir
but Ashley, it already heals and damages :P
stark linden
i mean you said damage would heal and heal would damage
reef parcel
yeah
stark linden
and you can target it opposite
viscid tapir
ench was gonna be my thought
reef parcel
OH
viscid tapir
though you'd have to be very close
viscid tapir
and you lose your own sustain
viscid tapir
Lion casting Finger of Life
reef parcel
yeah lots of healing nukes
weary flax
watch footage online and see if you find a hero you'd like? dota is a pretty hig...
There's already a few that caught my eye, just nervous about running to the issue of not playing someome properly lol
reef parcel
bristleback becomes an ambulance
viscid tapir
question: would it make CM's aura into a mana drain
stark linden
theres only one way to learn
lucid sluice
Lion casting Finger of Life
"this time im bringing heaven with me!"
stark linden
reef parcel
There's already a few that caught my eye, just nervous about running to the issu...
dota is a game that's like, about the challenge and ridiculous number of layers to manage 
that's what it's all about
if you're excited for a challenging loop you're gonna fail a lot, you'll have a great time
we all lose all the time
weary flax
I can see that, and I can give it my best try
reef parcel
I strongly recommend AI games!
also, @delicate jungle is also new - you guys can definitely duo together if you'd like a more relaxing experience than the swat team level stuff the rest of us do
weary flax
It just came to my head because I heard from others about how newbs in LoLwould get eviscerated for trying to figure things out in their first few matches
stark linden
we do try to have a pretty good enviorment for learning
lots of vets that can guide you somewhat
reef parcel
mobas have famously terrible communities
but we're pilot net
so don't worry about it
steel forge
yeah as someone who knows basically nothing the swat team enviroment is still fun to learn in :)
unrelated dota question though: why at the start of the game do we kinda stand around in the jungle and wait to see if the enemy team comes to fight us?
glossy stratus
In a stack we usually look at each team and try to decide who wins a fight at level 1
If we think we win we go to their jungle and try to kill them
If not we try to posture defensively so we can run away if they come to kill us
lucid sluice
all for those sweet sweet bounty runes
glossy stratus
anyway I woke up and thought damn. I wonder if chain frost is the best way to ex...
Oracle Ulti, aka Loaned Time
(The interest rate is brutal)
steel forge
In a stack we usually look at each team and try to decide who wins a fight at le...
I really hate to repeat the question but like, why do we want to win that fight?
what does it get us?
stark linden
momentum!
glossy stratus
First Blood gives a lot of bonus gold and xp
lucid sluice
puts us at a gold/exp advantage and them at a disadvantage we can hopefully snowball off from really early in the game
glossy stratus
And starting just a little bit ahead in lane is a big deal, since it tends to snowball
stark linden
plus getting extra bounties over 2 means the enemy doesnt get them
stark linden
the lil golden orange runes
lucid sluice
rune that gives gold to a team
stark linden
taht give everyone on the team money
glossy stratus
Hitting level 2 a wave earlier can easily mean you get a few more denies/last hits on that wave, which means you're even further ahead when you hit level 3...
steel forge
I see
steel forge
what's bottling a rune then? I heard till mention that
lucid sluice
secondary reason: a dota team is ideally made up of 5 bloodthirsty maniacs and the blood calls to us
stark linden
bottle is an item that gives you hp/mana regen
it has charges
storing and activating a rune in the bottle
refills the charges
glossy stratus
It also means that for "power runes" (non-bounty/wisdom runes) you can hold onto them until a more opportune moment
E.g. holding a Double Damage rune until you go fight Roshan
Or a Regen until you need the hp/mana
stark linden
timing is consistent, the rune that spawns is random afaik?
at least for the river runes
the bounty and wisdom runes are consistent
glossy stratus
The power runes won't repeat until you've had one of each now I think?
delicate jungle
https://www.tumblr.com/feybeasts/737976480110379008 phantom lancer
cursive wing
wait... wouldn't backdoor protection trigger?
i dont think it would work for negative hp regen
but that sounds really good. does it also reduce their armor?
reef parcel
no, RAW from my dream was strictly an inversion of damage and healing, an inversion of ally vs enemy targeting, and only for hero abilities
nothing else was affected
but lord knows how damage amplification etc interact with it all
vapid ledge
actually for decision making purpose
if a team's (bloodseeker, skywrath, lina, furion, slardar) fought next to enemy ancient tower, won with towers down, enemy team wipe, skywrath with no mana left and lina with 7 stacks of passive and counting surviving with 2 enemy team members (well fed rikki and competent vengeful spirit) at around 5 seconds of respawn timer left, were they better off retreating or just close their eyes and push til they get eliminated?
my logic: if they die there, the team'll spawn at roughly the same time and can defend with a united front instead of repeatedly need to fight 3v5s
own base situation is only one t3 tower down, enemy team not having the capability to deal damage to ancient tower before team respawns
i was the dead slardar and begged the skywrath to right click on the ancient, got met with "i have no mana" and soon as they get persuaded they got offed by the rikki
wanted to assess if i fucked up by killing his chance of getting back in time (he had no mana for even tp)
i THINK all minions with us on that fight are gone too
viscid tapir
I think backing up is the right call?
depends how late game and how much damage you can do to the ancient
dying late in the game is really risky, potentially it's a long death time, or you have to spend buyback
vapid ledge
30 sec ish respawn timer
delicate jungle
@viscid tapir what did you say? i could not hear you, there was some loud stuff going on on my computer
glossy stratus
Depends on the Lina's items, whether the enemy team has Fortify, and whether the Sky and Lina have buyback, IMO
vapid ledge
asking cause now i feel bad that the sky felt bad for not executing my plea sooner
and seems like ppl try to listen to me if i'm on the voice comms during company dota
so like... kinda don't want to/now afraid of make bad calls...
glossy stratus
If Lina has good attack damage (and ideally a deso) and preferably bkb, they have no fort, and Sky and Lina have buyback, going for the win is reasonable
But change any of that and it becomes a lot riskier
glossy stratus
so like... kinda don't want to/now afraid of make bad calls...
FWIW, making a bad call is usually better than making no call
Since the alternative is often "half your team goes for each option and they take you down piecemeal"
vapid ledge
lol technically that ended up happening but yeah that makes sense
man
i need to play more... when the one player in the company who actually knows what he's doing when he plays carry shows up, it takes so much coordination and decision making to shut him out from being well fed for like a good 10 minutes
glossy stratus
That's always tricky
vapid ledge
i can't tell if i should rather play support and be shotcaller or be a 3 and just dedicate myself to anti-carrying
and shotcall when i die
glossy stratus
3s can be a good position to shot call from as well, since you'll often be the one rotating/initiating
vapid ledge
cause i know for a fact that i can't carry harder than he does, after trying it once
oh that's what ended up costing me a lot of exp/gold: i more or less need to be everywhere to make sure there are fights that get initiated from our end (i ended up being the only one willing to initiate on our team)
and company dota is always unfixed teams so no pre-designated drilling on ppl's position
(most of the players are currently in the hero specific phase at best, learning how mechanics work phase at worst)
glossy stratus
2 or 3 seems to be a good choice for that case, either one can be a temposetter/playmaker position
vapid ledge
i'll keep that in mind
i'll need to learn to effectively roam if that's the case
cause quite often i'll be seeing the carry player be out of position, go to gank him, and lose 3v1 due to being like 4 levels or so behind or something
glossy stratus
Theorycraft time: if you run a 3 in the safe lane, you could rotate through the portal every time the waves push out
vapid ledge
that's a really good point, i need to portal more often for sure
glossy stratus
i'll need to learn to effectively roam if that's the case
A lot of good gankers can farm the jungle on their way
glossy stratus
that's a really good point, i need to portal more often for sure
Same, I always forget to use 'em in lane
vapid ledge
tbf i also embarrased myself today by talking to the skywrath player after the game, hearing that he faces mana problem
and suggest "just turn your ult off when you're not using it'
i wonder how many patches ago that suggestion applies
glossy stratus
Has Sky ever had a toggle ult? Might be thinking of Lesh?
vapid ledge
coulda sworn his ult was a toggle at one point...
vapid ledge
checked wiki, nope, i'm clowning myself, never been a channel
glossy stratus
There was the time when it lasted 12 seconds with aghs
Still sometimes miss the 0cd aghs though
Not good, very funny
delicate jungle
<@&877973728997294120> I Wish to Defend Some Ancients
cursive wing
hi
viscid tapir
i can be around if there's a couple more, but otherwise I've been afflicted with achey-tiredness disease
olive moon
ill join in like 5 mins
delicate jungle
ok
olive moon
sry long 5 mins logging on now
viscid tapir
@cursive wing you still around for dota?
honest meteor
I’m just about to get home. And I’ll be ready to ancients some defence.
gritty sparrow
Hey, a feature that I didn't think of until it happened to me just recently
Gondar going full attack speed meme with the level 25 no cooldown on Jinada: Haha, funny, but never actually useful in time right?
..............
Wait where'd my buyback money go
glossy stratus
Oh that's mean
I saw something of a conceptual inverse not too long ago, someone didn't have buyback, died, immediately bought back
(They lost enough net worth by dropping rapier that they could afford to buyback)
gritty sparrow
(They lost enough net worth by dropping rapier that they could afford to buyback...
Bigger brain would be if you have an item in your stash, putting it on your courier, dropping the item near an enemy and watch them deny it
As soon as its gone your buyback is cheaper
paper shell
Theres a clip from a pro game a year back or so where someone does that, or maybe a pro player in a pub 
I can't remember anymore
manic nimbus
tbh that khanda uses jinada but doesn't put it on cd is wild
cursive wing
Theres a clip from a pro game a year back or so where someone does that, or mayb...
It was in a Jenkins herald video
delicate jungle
how do yall use hero guides if at all?
glossy stratus
I don't know how to change the guide so mine are still on the default items that mostly haven't been updated for a decade or so
steel forge
how do yall use hero guides if at all?
I just choose the top one that's not the default one and hit select
and then hope it's good
manic nimbus
immortalfaith is usually not bad
delicate jungle
i like them better than the torte de lini guides
oddly this doesnt have gliepnir, which is real good on hoodwink apparently
cursive wing
On my super comfort heroes I often deviate from the skill build guides
manic nimbus
gleip is good yeah but its more of a transitional build
delicate jungle
gleip is good yeah but its more of a transitional build
transitional?
glossy stratus
Something you get for moving to more of a core role
manic nimbus
for a 4 that transitions into a more core/carry role
glossy stratus
(Or if you already are a core)
delicate jungle
ah i see
glossy stratus
(Sometimes called a 3.5, for reference)
steel forge
aw dang I just loaded into a nebulous game
delicate jungle
oh fair
reef parcel
till is currently doing pathfinder stuff, I'm gonna watch anime and go to bed soon probably
sorry punch
@light urchin were you interested in playing?
delicate jungle
oh fair
reef parcel
your enthusiasm is lovely
light urchin
I don't know if I can right now 😔 but I appreciate the shout!
delicate jungle
its ok
delicate jungle
still in awe of the batshit off the wall character/mechanic concepts in dota 2
like, league or any other game i can think of for that matter doesnt even get close to the wild stuff in this game
manic nimbus
interestingly dota was like this before league or any of the other ones outside wc3 mods
and is why I never clicked with league, I started on the hard stuff and it just felt a bit watered down
its kinda two approaches to balance really
balance down and balance up
and dota really balances up
the strong stuff keeps the other strong stuff in check
reef parcel
yeah dota is to this date my best example of a ridiculously high powered game where everyone has ridiculous tools and the ability to enforce nutso gameplans and yet the game has remained balanced
and it's such an anomaly in this regard I'm not sure I can expect other developers to do the same
icefrog is mad
and good
delicate jungle
Icefrog?
gritty sparrow
The lead dev, sort of
manic nimbus
the current dev
in its early days dota had 2 previous maintainers and they each passed it along, eventually icefrog got it and kinda it got big under him
gritty sparrow
how do yall use hero guides if at all?
Also on guides this is really true of any game but, the sooner you ween yourself off them the better. If you are a position 1/2 carry your builds often just stay the same for at least a few items but for supports it can get bad if you are being rigid to a build, since it gets so situational.
You seem to like p4 which does mean you can build greedier and thus get your heroes specific comfort items for your build often, but your carry might be getting ban ulted and needs a lotus/linkens put on them, or people are getting memed on by a magic damage core like Zeus or Lina and need a glimmer cape, or there are heroes that are directly countered by a Force Staff(Slark/Clockwerk/Nature's Prophet) and using that on your carry to save them is game winning
manic nimbus
I'm not sure force is the best vs slark but yeah otherwise agree
gritty sparrow
Largely it breaks Pounce leash
Which I thought it wouldn't. Since it's a leash. But apparently it does
manic nimbus
yeah it does do that
but usually carries don't tend to get messed up that much by leash
I think glimmer is often better, or really ideally things like eblade
gritty sparrow
True, and since he is a slark there is a zero chance their greedy little fish hands purchased a dust
manic nimbus
hey slark players are upstanding and moral players
full of virtue and good things
yeah but probably not dust tbh
gritty sparrow
Slark is one of those carries that I get a weird amount of that are toxic, like Shadow Fiend. Nothing should correlate between those characters and being toxic but it ends up being true in my games
manic nimbus
hahaha both are characters I play
karmic grove
Oh yeah, shadow fiend is the classic for that
manic nimbus
yeah though honestly you don't see him much anymore
karmic grove
~~yeah but probably not dust tbh~~
Also this is something (along with everything else) I need to get better at :v