Cyberpunk 2077

[barren zealot]

wich skill tree is the nerdiest Inteligence of technical ?

[sage junco]

Intelligence

Technical is more about editing your own body

[rough laurel]

Int-Tec combo is wild tho

[sage junco]

Ye

[rough laurel]

Walk in half your enemies are gone from your funny brain powers and the rest eat chrome shortly after

[sage junco]

Like you can max out every tree apart from one with the current level cap

With overclocked and healing cyberware etc you don't even need them to eat chrome

[rough laurel]

But I like punching them

More accurate it is kanabo and revolver time

[orchid apex]

I fully upped my tech tree in my latest playthrough and it wasn’t really nerdy

It was more ‘cyberware as drug of choice’

[icy pecan]

Tech is so great

[drifting patio]

INT is computer shenanigans, Tech is more like, mechanics

[orchid apex]

We’re addicted to apogee sandy in this house

[drifting patio]

So, what's more nerdy, knowing how to hack computers, or knowing how to upgrade a car?

[orchid apex]

I mean I’d say Int is more nerdy because you can only really be a nerd with it

While with Tech you can be a nerd

Or a psycho whose drug of choice is cyberware

[pale saddle]

From my experience you can cap out 3 and leave one at 18 or leave one at 17 and another at 4 after the 3

[barren zealot]

yay at max level with PL, you can go 20 in 3 skill tree and 18 in a fourth if you let one a 3 (sorry ofr french)

[pale saddle]

This does not count the secret skill tree which is unlocked with the DLC which is also what unlocks level 60 for that stat spread

[sage junco]

That secret tree doesn't get points from leveling up thou

[barren zealot]

yay it get point from computer in the dlc zone

[pale saddle]

That's why I didn't count it

[arctic palm]

I named my very tough, willful cyberpunk ttrpg character "sangfroide" since someone suggested it, and after googling "sang-froid" it seems that was a very apt decision

[sage junco]

She's activated the sandevistan

[toxic prism]

so, why did Yorinobu try to sell the Relic to Netwatch specifically?

[sage junco]

Several reasons

[toxic prism]

Like I know Yorinobu's plan can be summed up as "fuck Arasaka"

but Netwatch can't be a coincidence

[sage junco]

Mostly because the relic was going to kill Yorinobu and he knew it

[toxic prism]

given everything about the Biochip

[sage junco]

But Netwatch wanted to buy it specifically because it had Johnny Silverhand in

As a way to contact Alt, as you do in the game

[toxic prism]

mhm

any reason why they'd do that?

[sage junco]

IIRC you can read emails in the apartment that hint to this

Why they'd want to contact Alt? Probably better they have the tool to do it than anyone else in their eyes

Alt is a potentially very dangeours AI, or potentially a helpful one

The key to any in road with them is through Johnny

[toxic prism]

Fair

Plus iirc the Blackwall was made with AI help right?

[sage junco]

||It is an AI||

[toxic prism]

It wasn't just Netwatch's work

Oh yeah

But it was also made with help from beyond the Blackwall

[sage junco]

So they aren't opposed to working with AI as a tool to stop AI

[toxic prism]

Both are true

Yeah

I'm guessing Orion or whatever they call the sequel is gonna involve the Blackwall somehow

[sage junco]

Heavy hints imply it's gonna be AI focused yeah

For example ||them specifically including Mr Blue Eyes in the Moon ending of the DLC||

[toxic prism]

Yeah

His placement can't be a coincidence

[sage junco]

It's very deliberate

He shows up twice

And is mentioned in dialogue

[toxic prism]

||Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the relic mean that an AI can basically hijack V's body?||

||which is one of the reasons Erebus (among others) are interested in V||

[sage junco]

Probably yeah, but I wouldn't say it's a relic exclusive thing

[toxic prism]

||IIRC Alt mentions that humans can't be hijacked normally, even with augments, but the presence of the Relic (which can hold artifical intelligence like Johnny) changes that||

||but I could be misremembering||

But true

[sage junco]

Ah maybe then

Worth noting that ||the relic was going to become like, a tech popular amongst all of socieities elite||

||it was already being used by some of them, sorta||

[toxic prism]

||yeah, which is concerning knowing this||

||though iirc the ending (excrpt the Devil and Tower) kinda shoot this plan in the knee per se||

||as the cripple the program and araska as a whole||

[sage junco]

Ye

So I think in a potential Orion plot line, it'll just be another implant some folk use

[toxic prism]

||Which opens the opportunity for AI takeover and, on a meta level, AI characters that aren't vague abstract beings||

[sage junco]

Maybe I dunno the next corporate war creates an enviroment where everyones backing up their personalities encase they die in it

[toxic prism]

||If Erebus, a powerful blackwall AI, is interested in V, I doubt he's the only one||

||especially since V met at least 2 other Blackwall AI (Alt and Delamain)||

[sage junco]

For sure

[toxic prism]

||Whether as a tool, body, or "pet" of sorts, we'll see I suppose||

[sage junco]

I could imagine the start of the next game being like Johnny's back story. You're a soilder who deserted

Maybe you get some experimental tech put in you

Or see something

[toxic prism]

||Or an AI brings you back because they think you're useful||

[sage junco]

Could be ye

[toxic prism]

||I can totally see an AI filling the "brain friend" role Johnny fills||

||or even multiple AI||

||Just a bunch of godlike AIs hosting a party in some poor mortal's head||

[soft oak]

Eclipse phase in cyberpunk

[soft oak]

Playing cyberpunk except its disco Elysium

[toxic prism]

I'd be down

[soft oak]

You have to argue against your bio metabolism on why no, drinking the last remaining drops of someone else’s beer discarded on the floor is a societal faux pas

[toxic prism]

I think the concept art really helps.put into perspective how Songbird is basically a full borg

Well, Renders, not concept art

[soft oak]

Yeah like

Only part of her that is organic appears to be parts of her brain

Rest is chrome

[orchid apex]

I mean we don’t explicitly know if her legs are

But that’s admittedly hairsplitting

[sage junco]

At a certain point would it even be worth keeping the little bit of leg left

If its all metal between

[soft oak]

I dunnow I guess robocop let him keep one arm for some godforsaken reason

[fervent lagoon]

imo it's pretty safe to assume that she's a full conversion

[toxic prism]

She's foil to Adam Smasher

She's a full borg, but instead of being a Combat Oriented Araska Borg, she's a Netrunning Oriented Militech Borg

Probably just as dangerous though tbh

[soft oak]

She gives me the impression that she clings to whatever humanity that’s left in her desperately

[toxic prism]

Yeah

[soft oak]

As opposed to smasher who revels in his monstrosity

[toxic prism]

Also a good point

[icy pecan]

Cranial heatsink hits different

[vast scroll]

brain generates a lotta heat, gotta keep it cool

not to mention who knows what stuff jammed in there with it

[icy pecan]

Her brain is definitely overclocked

[toxic prism]

Huh, apperantly the dick-on-fire guy gets out of your car and explodes if you aren't fast enough

[exotic anvil]

that's jessse cox alright

[junior phoenix]

fuck yes

[icy pecan]

He wasn't lying about needing to see a ripperdoc

[icy pecan]

Yea that's him

I believe Jesse requested as annoying of an npc as they would make him

And now there's a mod where you can "romance" dick on fire guy

Officially voiced by Jesse Cox

[fervent lagoon]

I don't think he ever gets named during the story

RIP Richard Ash

[soft oak]

I thought his name was flaming dick man

[fervent lagoon]

it is, I'm cracking wise

[drifting patio]

Oh

lol

[drifting patio]

Nice

[toxic prism]

The Chimera fight makes me wonder how destructive war is as of 2077

[soft oak]

Very undestructive

See chimera shot those lasers at columns but the building didn’t collapse

[toxic prism]

True, but you know what I mean

[soft oak]

Yeye

Probably super destructive

[pale saddle]

There's a reason Night City is surrounded by a total wasteland

[arctic palm]

it's surrounded with a wasteland because it's in california

[toxic prism]

And also years of Climate Change

And a literal nuke

[arctic palm]

that's just what california is like

in any case I would assume that a lot of it's fought with a combination of drones, tricked-out personnel, and hacking

[pale saddle]

Also the ||two person tank you pilot|| during the Panam questline

Also also ||Johnny Silverhand||

[toxic prism]

Silverhand was in a war in the 90s though

Nearly 80 years ago

[pale saddle]

I just wanted to make the joke

[drifting patio]

Isn't that a ||decades-old APC||?

[icy pecan]

Not even

It's a cargo transport

Idk where the cargo goes but it's not even a modern vehicle it was from the previous corporate wars

An actual tank meant purely for close quarters engagement would probably be monstrous

[vast scroll]

this is the US army's MBT circa 2020

https://i.imgur.com/JHv6J1j.png M-11 MBT (dual main guns are a 2cm railgun and rapid fire 37mm, plus AGAMs and 30mm autocannon on top, 6 Hellfires on the side)

importantly, its one of the best on the market... because its twice the price of Militech's

(because Militech's is smaller, lighter armed, lighter armored and with a larger crew)

https://i.imgur.com/LWdpcJe.png https://i.imgur.com/lCxcM1h.png

[icy pecan]

Those look a lot less fancy than a basilisk

Or a chimera

[vast scroll]

the basilisk is 30+ years later

this is a pre-4thCW design, the basilisk is post-RED

and remember, post-4thCW, the US ate Militech, so all that stuff is theirs

the real danger are ACPA, because yes, Cyberpunk has mechs

https://i.imgur.com/7d8aJol.png

actually, no, sorry

the "pistol" is the 20mm cannon, the wristgun is the M-31 PA (basically a mounted version of the assault rifle) plus a a grenade launcher and ATGM stored seperately as handheld weapons

[icy pecan]

Imagine a boss battle where you're in a mech suit fighting something like a chimera

[vast scroll]

note: for the price of one (1) M-11 MBT, you can buy... 150 Commandos

because theyre only 108K a piece

[icy pecan]

This is the premise of Obsolete, mechs cheaper than tanks

[vast scroll]

(the real cost is the pilot)

[soft oak]

Why are mechs cheaper than tanks by that much

Smaller?

[vast scroll]

yeah

the Commando is only 945 kg for example

also they make use of the same tech that cybernetics does

and importantly, you control them through an interface (like how you pilot the Basilisk), so you just become a Big Metal Dude

so imagine all the tech that goes into making bulletproof superstrong cyberlimbs

and remove the "it needs to be small enough fit on/in a human" problem

basically, imagine entire platoons worth of Smasher

[barren zealot]

chromed out

[vast scroll]

and before you go "oh Smasher's a Dragoon", the dragoon is more expensive (120k + surgery) and has less armor and WAY less health

40 SP and 40 SDP on the Dragoon vs. 65 SP and 90 SDP on the Commando

not to mention you can mass-produce Commandos and the pilots just need interface plugs

[icy pecan]

Smasher is basically the most Borg you can get legally as a civilian

And have a life in a city

[vast scroll]

oh, smashers not remotely legal

he's an Arasaka killer robot with a human brain wedged into it

his current body (according to CDPR) is a modified Dragoon, which is so extreme that, quote,

To ensure reliable performance from the Dragoon, a Behavioral Inhibitor Program in the cyborg's on-board computer (operating in concert with a chemical injection system loaded with psychoactives) restrict the Borg's thought processes, turning it into a loyal soldier

A common mission would be to send a Dragoon into a sector which has been cleared of friendly forces and have it kill anyone it finds, then return. Those soldiers who have been the "minds" of Dragoons are not comfortable with the experience, likening it to being in a dream (or nightmare).

if a "street-legal" maxed out cyborg is the equivalent of an ordinary assault rifle, Adam is the equivalent of a heavy machine gun

(at minimum)

maybe a machine grenade launcher

you get the idea

[fervent lagoon]

with a Dragoon being basically the top end as far as full conversion borg frames go

[vast scroll]

yeah

like, even the militech spec ops body is only 65k and 21d6 HL compared to the dragoon's 120k and 42d6 HL

[fervent lagoon]

I forget why exactly the dragoon is so damn expensive but it's got basically every useful bit of kit under the sun

[vast scroll]

more or less

its just crammed full of shit

this is the Eclipse https://i.imgur.com/04vw74M.png

this is the Dragoon https://i.imgur.com/X5oAjgI.jpeg

(and yes, you are correctly reading that the Dragoon can run 50 mph)

[willow harness]

'19d6+141' humanity cost lmao

[vast scroll]

FBC aint to be taken lightly!

[willow harness]

I like the idea of someone taking the 42d6+3 option and by some miracle only losing 45
'I feel fine actually'

(Note I have no clue what the diff is between the humanity cost and humanity cost in brackets is)

[vast scroll]

its a partial average so you dont have to roll as many dice

also note that FBCs actually have lower HC than equivalent cybernetics purchased individually

they only provide an example with the Alpha (the "basic" FBC) but its a difference of 32d6 -> 16d6

cant even imagine what an un-discounted Dragoon would be like

[fervent lagoon]

though with the dragoon the savings takes it from "just don't" to "achievable with substantial though manageable consequences thanks to the biopod system"

[vast scroll]

yeah

[fervent lagoon]

FBC is 50% iirc so 84d6+3

[vast scroll]

plus the assumed several months of Intensive Care Therapy

[fervent lagoon]

which is on average 297 HL

[fervent lagoon]

POV you are adam smasher

[vast scroll]

and theres no official discount (because you can only buy pre-made FBCs) but 50% is the approx. discount on the Alpha, yeah

[barren zealot]

Chooms would be seeing Smasher and think "I need to go to the gym"

[toxic prism]

I wonder how Therapist buisness is in Night City

because it sounds like something that wouldn't fit in, but Therapy is a big thing in RED

[soft oak]

Therapists are out of jobs

They got replaced with AI

Much like singers and artists

And engineers

[toxic prism]

Case in point

Ah

That sucks

[soft oak]

AIs already rule humanity

Humanity simply hasn’t realized it yet

In fact in my opinion most corporations would run 1000% more efficiently if you killed and replaced their board members with AI

[icy pecan]

Well sort of, real therapists are gone but they have "life coaches" types

Corpro V starts off with a life coach that is complete corporate BS

Basically a cheap hack so they have plausible denialbility that they "tried" to help their employees

[orchid apex]

That talk'll get NetWatch at your door

[light anchor]

this is red which is also significantly earlier

[toxic prism]

True

[soft oak]

Netwatch, who is run by AIs

[orchid apex]

I mean yes

AIs which don’t like other AIs, notable members including the Blackwall

[icy pecan]

Didn't know netwatch was run by AIs but that's a funny degree of irony

I just likey main man delamain

[sage junco]

I wouldn't say run by

But working with for sure

Honestly it's their only tool to actually combat other AIs

[icy pecan]

I could see no way that could go wrnog

[sage junco]

Only way to fight babies with a grenade is get your baby a grenade

[vast scroll]

an important fact is that there are multiple kinds of AI

the ones helping Netwatch are mainly the "made by humans" type and the ones behind the blackwall are mostly the emergent ones (incl. RABIDS)

[sage junco]

It seems the black wall is not man made

That's just netwatch propaganda

[willow harness]

I've heard a few times that the Blackwall IS an AI

[toxic prism]

it is

It's an AI made with the help of "benevolent" AIs

So far the AIs we know are:
Delamain
Alt
The Blackwall
Lilith
Erebus

Blackwall and Delamain are on Humanity's side (or at least like Humans and finds them interesting, the latter's case)

[light anchor]

Skippy

[toxic prism]

Alt is Alt

And Erebus and Lilith seem to be of the "kill all humans" type

And yeah forgot about him

[soft oak]

I’m pretty sure Skippy is just a learning program

A chat program I mean

One that’s convincing at pretending to be sentient

I sincerely doubt that gun has the capacity to store an actual self aware AI

Do personality fragments stored in Mikoshi count as AIs

Or just ghosts

[vast scroll]

yes

soulkiller makes AIs out of humans

[soft oak]

Do they get cool ai smarts though

[vast scroll]

not inherently

Soulkilled Pseudo Intellects (SPI): Sometimes referred to as Ghosts, these are a type of Artificial Intelligence that were once actual human beings, whose consciousnesses were digitized, often not voluntarily, by Soulkiller programs. As a consequence, they were trapped within the Net and only exist there. Despite being former humans, SPIs are considered a subtype of AI.

like, Alt and Johnny are both SPI

[icy pecan]

Rip ||the not really AI|| brennan

[delicate pivot]

Now that I've gotten a PS5 I can finally continue the game and un-abandon my V!! I've missed her 😭😭

[exotic anvil]

oh is there cross save?

[tidal osprey]

Yeah

[exotic anvil]

nice

[delicate pivot]

Yess!!

[bright granite]

New patch and 'Melee Finishers will now work properly.', I thought I'd been getting them reliably :|a

[icy pecan]

Wait what's the change

How were they broke

[sage junco]

The trigger to prompt you to finisher wasn't triggering when it should sometimes

Basically, you'll see it more now

[delicate pivot]

Which is the best fit for my V?

[sage junco]

I think 1

[drifting patio]

1 or 3

[delicate pivot]

I think 3 is my favorite now

[drifting patio]

Cyber Mafioso

[delicate pivot]

Ok last few photo mode shots I'm gonna send I feel like I'm clogging up the channel the game is just too pretty 😭

The PS5 looks so damn good

[tropic eagle]

So I started another character and I saw I still had my oldest save from my first character ar the start and a couple of the last autosaves of that character (most recent) but will it overwrite those most recent ones or will at least one of those stay as I progress on the new character?

[drifting patio]

It shouldn't

[tropic eagle]

And I imagine I can load to that final save of my first character any time without it locking me out of future saves (aka my new characger)?

[rough laurel]

what

[sage junco]

2.1.1 update?

Or 2.2

I forgot what they titled it

Regarding the size, depending how the game is designed, it's possible that a small change to for example graphics or engine require the entire section needs redownloading

Although there is maybe some secret stuff to so

[rough laurel]

I think I missed an update lol

[icy pecan]

Some fun with goblin tool

[fervent lagoon]

so I'm doing Waiting for Dodger, and the quest is going entirely peacefully all the way to the end, and then ||one of these fucking idiots runs over one of the barghest guys and starts a fight||

swear to fuck cops can't drive

[toxic prism]

Perfectly in-character for the quest imo

[fervent lagoon]

Yup

[stark sun]

man i need to do the government side of phantom liberty

but i cant bring myself to side with the feds over songbird

[trail bronze]

don't do it then

i did it and wished i hadn't bothered, it only served to confirm that i was right to make the decisions i made in the first place

[icy pecan]

Feds ending is almost as bad as the arasaka one

[stark sun]

havent done that one either

[toxic prism]

I did that first route

I felt horrible

[stark sun]

im still amazed songbird isnt romanceable

[trail bronze]

that wasn't a romance?

[stark sun]

ikr

[granite solstice]

It’s definitely something intense enough to make it all real gut wrenching!

[sage junco]

I don't think it was or could be romance imo

She's not in a place for that

[stark sun]

i get that

but also

[sage junco]

And, ya know, is using you

[stark sun]

i support womens wrongs

[sage junco]

Feds are using you to of course, it's Cyberpunk, everyone is using you

Just comes down to choosing who messed you over

[stark sun]

the one who had to do it

no other options

[sage junco]

Both of them did

One of them is doing it cos if they don't they get tortued then die. the other is doing it cos if they don't they risk the world ending

[stark sun]

one is a possibility

the other is absoulte

[icy pecan]

Everyone except like the Aldecados and your romances are using you, you just have to decide which one you're most fine with using you. And the answer is never let corpos or feds use you

[stark sun]

songbird has no choice

[sage junco]

Neither do the feds

[stark sun]

they could just leave

[sage junco]

You can't risk AI breaking out the blackwall

It's like, you can't just casually drop a nuke and hope it doesn't explode

It's the feds fault, to a degree, this happened in the first place but still

[icy pecan]

Yea the choices in the DLC feels more nuanced than original endings

[sage junco]

Ironically though, siding with feds also leads to blackwall AI escaping depending on your choices

[stark sun]

im replaying it now so this will continue later

[icy pecan]

Pretty much many of the original endings were basically like personal choices and motivations, whereas DLC endings seem to have a broader implication that affects everyone in night city

As in the original endings were moreso, how do you want your V to go out?

[stark sun]

hope, glory, or the wrong answer

[sage junco]

And the Johnny ending

Unless you count that as wrong answer?

[trail bronze]

the first time i finished the game was when the balance was a bit wobblier than it is now

i kicked in the front door and literally got oneshot

[stark sun]

that was the glory

[trail bronze]

absolutely splendid

[sage junco]

The one where Johnny takes your body and you don't storm the tower I mean

[stark sun]

aldecados, johnny, arasaka

oh if forgot that one

[sage junco]

Ye

[stark sun]

option d

[sage junco]

Cos that's also a pretty valid choice to imo

[stark sun]

fuck it

[toxic prism]

I like Don't Fear the Reaper > Star Ending

It's the hypest ending to me

[stark sun]

counterpoint

v deserves it

[toxic prism]

Unfortunately the only ones where you are undoom are arguably the bad endings

[stark sun]

star is ambiguous

and it gives you a tank

[toxic prism]

Isn't Star the Blue Eyes one

Or am I thinking of the Sun

[stark sun]

star is going out with the aldecados

[toxic prism]

Yeah I prefer the Sun

[stark sun]

sun is blue eyes

[toxic prism]

Or DFTR Into the Sun

[icy pecan]

Star feels the best of the original endings for the best interest for V's happiness/health.

One of the DLC endings are the best for V's long term health for sure

[trail bronze]

i feel like if we were here for long-term health we wouldn't have gotten chipped and broken into that hotel in the first place

[icy pecan]

Hey my V was just an innocent corpo civilian in Arasaka's countersecurity just ruining lives for some lots of Eddies. Once I got 6 billion eddies quick as a merc I would have retired

Also like a V could change their mind, as the Star ending is like realizing fame, eddies, and night city in general isn't worth it

The one DLC ending is that but more serious as ||V just gives up cyberware in general which can be traumatic if your V was a borged up god but with like real therapy and stuff you could live a long and happy life as a regular person or a fixer.||

[sage junco]

For sure

I saw people hating on that ending saying like ||it's worse than dying|| and I'm like wtf is wrong with you

||Everyone you saved up to that point who isn't borged up, their life isn't worth it?||

[icy pecan]

Idk about y'all but ||I live without cyberware just fine||

[sage junco]

I don't but fair

[stark sun]

i may do a full tech run for that and take that ending

sounds interesting

[icy pecan]

||Yea and I believe it only applies to complex cyberware like gorilla arms and not like biosynthesized arms with some artificial material.||

[sage junco]

Hard to say for sure but ||no matter how modded you were, they put you back together good||

||so there's probably some artificial stuff on you||

[icy pecan]

||Like you could live a normal life for sure, or like if your V wanted to be someone "important" they could be a fixer, most of them are barely chromed up compared to their minions||

[trail bronze]

i'm those people

[sage junco]

Is that due to the ||lack of chrome or due to your friends leaving you?||

[trail bronze]

||it's due to the total loss of identity and purpose, and also you kill Johnny again and even though he's kind of a prick there's another way out||

[sage junco]

I think the first bit is untrue

You still have that and can make one

But ||Johnny dying is sad yeah||

But no worse than ||you dying or other people dying in your other endings||

[trail bronze]

that's why Don't Fear The Reaper > The Sun is my idea of the True Ending

or even Don't Fear The Reaper > Immediately Getting Headshot As Soon As You Open The Door

[icy pecan]

To me dying for no reason is a lack of purpose to me, much like how Johnny nuked Arasaka and like had a huge impact but it ultimately meant little in like 70 years.

[stark sun]

i like the star so v gets more time with people who actually like them

[icy pecan]

Like V taking out Arasaka Tower singlehandedly doesn't seem as impactful as a nuke

I played a goody 2 shoes V or at least as good as you can in Night City and my V was all about friends and Judy so like assuming Judy stays with her when she loses chrome then there's not loss of identity or purpose for her

[trail bronze]

i think it's the act of finally taking responsibility for the bad decisions that have led you here onto your own shoulders

[icy pecan]

As for killing Johnny, that is sad, although he seems ready to die again. When you give him your body he just kind of vanishes and does nothing really but wait until he dies

[icy pecan]

Idk it feels like an empty gesture in that way? The people you hurt are still hurt assuming they're alive and your death even many of the Arasaka's folks death don't mean much to help those you've wronged with your mistakes. Like living then starting a charity or like a fixer to do "good" seems better

[bright granite]

Part of my issue with the endings is we aren't actually allowed to make any of the decisions, the prologue is mostly set in stone, I have.. weird feelings about the main story

[icy pecan]

It's an odd thing where CDPR seems to give you a lot of freedom with your character, but your character is set at the beginning as not a good person no matter the life path you choose.

[stark sun]

night city bby

[icy pecan]

It sort of reminds me Witcher where you're playing Geralt at his core but with some choices, but they were upfront about it. Cyberpunk you're playing a merc or soon to be merc but with some choices

[bright granite]

Not just that, like.. V is mostly just.. responding to events other people caused. The only reason this story isn't about Jackie is that he was shot in the wrong cutscene

[icy pecan]

Ok I also see that

[bright granite]

I've said it before but getting to know the new life of the main character shouldn't have been a flash forward montage

[icy pecan]

Probably time constraint but they could have cut most of act 1 to let us experience the flash forward outselves and have that affect how we proceed with the heist

[bright granite]

Maybe I'm just biased, RDR2 felt like it handled the 'illness' narrative better, it felt like.. idk, excessive almost to the 2077 business, it's core to it, but like. Feels like it takes away from the side content to have a canon clock ticking away

[icy pecan]

You got 2 weeks to live, also you can wait 2 months of in game days for a lizard to hatch

[stark sun]

if i could change something it would be having a citizen sleeper type integrity meter that could be restored

so the clock is present

but not a deadline

[bright granite]

Have mediation meetings with Johnny to calm down/stall out business, make how you treat eachother factor in a little more mayb

[trail bronze]

yeah it's not a perfectly baked narrative that's for sure

[stark sun]

maybe hellman optimizes it a bit and alt puts an ai that stalls the process

[icy pecan]

Biochip integrity is already mentioned in the game, just repurpose that as a pseudo timer you can extend or pause

[stark sun]

tldr; mash citizen sleeper into 2077 until the perfect game is made

[fervent lagoon]

Spoilers PL: ||By the fourth? time songbird screwed V over I was highly tempted to feed her to myers and be done with it||

||Honestly at that point they're such a serial backstabber that like, fuck it this isn't worth it you had multiple opportunities and you burned all of them.||

[soft oak]

There’s a reason why Solomon describes Songbird as someone who makes amazing plays who loses in the end

[icy pecan]

Idk the only thing I can think of is that she like planned of a lot of this while constantly being monitored by the only "real" government in the US so she did pretty well considering it was just herself (albeit she's super borged up netrunner wise) and later on V

[toxic prism]

The person I feel the worst about is Reed

Regardless of what happens, he loses

[fervent lagoon]

I liked what they did with rinder because they set the quest up ||like it's going to be a choice between the stacks urge for justice and a remorseful rinder and then during conversation he outs himself as either colossal asshole or someone intentionally baiting V so it's a win-win||

[granite solstice]

I agree, but at the same time reed is so funny to me. I initially expected a super badass Idris Elba spy you know and instead he just sort of has the general aura of an extremely sad seal.

Tell me honestly he doesn’t look like a seal that’s about to burst into tears at any moment

[orchid apex]

I think it's worse than going out with a bang in six months after DFTR tbh

Knowing how the two options end up, I'd pick DFTR, trash one of the worst corpos in the world's office building to hell and back, and die in six months without ||seeing Panam leave the city and refuse to pick up the phone after assuming I just ghosted her, River become retraumatized by his career as a P.I., Judy leave me while I'm in a coma and get married, Kerry go on tour and never come back without ever really thanking me or us speaking again, and see Vik get bought out by Zetatech.||

I think most of us who are saying 'this ending is worse than dying' are saying it for those reasons lol

OH ||And your dead best friend's not-widow talks to you one last time before leaving for Switzerland, also to never talk to you again!||

The Tower sucks balls for V as a person

[orchid apex]

I can't rly feel bad for Reed tbh

Bro keeps you out of the loop pretty consistently

And just expects you to go along with whatever without the full picture because surprise, surprise, that's what he does

And like

My dude

I can tell you aren't telling me everything to the point I can't trust you

Why are you bereft of the two braincells necessary to tell that Meyers is doing the same shit to you?

[stark sun]

dude couldve just stepped aside at the shuttle

[orchid apex]

HE COULD HAVE

[stark sun]

songbird is the only one i feel bad for

[orchid apex]

V's even better at taking an L than he is!

[stark sun]

cause she is just as fucked as we are

[orchid apex]

When Songbird admits she's tricked you and you decide to help her anyway

[stark sun]

she didnt do it out of greed

[orchid apex]

That is you taking a massive L on the chin better than Reed does

[stark sun]

she just wants to survive

i cant be mad at that

[orchid apex]

I think the scene where Song tells V she's bamboozled them is a really great come to Jesus moment no matter what you choose

'Fuckers lie, cheat, and steal but I will help them anyway because we want the same things.'

vs

'Fuckers lie, cheat, and steal and I will do the same because we want the same things.'

[stark sun]

tl;dr support womens wrongs

[orchid apex]

but yeah I can't really give sympathy to Reed because he's a puppy dog

He's a puppy dog that knows we're all wolves, and tries to play like a wolf cuz he has teeth

[stark sun]

he lives to work

[orchid apex]

but he can't decide if he expects us to be a puppy dog or a wolf

and if he guesses wrong, and thinks we're not a puppy dog

We bury one in his chest

I don't even know if he lives to work

Dude doesn't seem like he's actively made his job his whole personality

There's a Reed that's not the FIA agent there

He just

[stark sun]

its been a while

[orchid apex]

Is always at work

[stark sun]

im replaying it now

thats what kickstarted this whole thing

[orchid apex]

lol nice

and sorry if I've rambled I just

was given a really strong impression of Reed as a character that on the surface was similar to the concensus

[stark sun]

spit yo shit my gamer

[orchid apex]

But it led me to such divergent deeper conclusions that it fascinates me

[stark sun]

breaking news: 2077 writers did their job

god i wish good stories were the baseline

[orchid apex]

I'm just in this state of not understanding the slack he's given

Well

Not slack

Just

No I'm not gonna feel bad for the Fed who's bad at communicating but insists he's on your side in this world of espionage and backstabbing

Like he's very well-written

I greatly appreciate what he brings to the table

There is just apparently this perceptual quantum superposition where I see his homemade pulled pork, and everyone else sees a plate of burgers

Well not everyone else, I'm not gonna imply an ego where I think my opinion is unique

[orchid apex]

I honestly think that 2077, while sadly light on nuanced commentary about hypercapitalism as a system, did a really good job writing stories about people living under hypercapitalism

The cyberpsycho gigs for one

They touch on the idea of mental illness of course, but also on what factors other than a person's innate being cause it, be it homelessness, joblessness, government meddling, etc

And also a bunch of stuff about cybernetics like their use as a labor aid, something I've only ever seen in Deus Ex Human Revolution, where they fucked it up

Or cybernetics as medical technology, which is something I wrote about in a screenwriting class because I was sick of not seeing anyone talk about cybernetics as an obvious allegory for modern disability aids or for lack of a better word 'installed' medical technology like pacemakers

[stark sun]

oh fuck i just remebered robo concentration camps

[orchid apex]

God

Human Revolution just

[drifting patio]

What?

[orchid apex]

Completely fucked cybernetics discourse in games for years

You read right Leah

[stark sun]

the last deus ex game was something

[orchid apex]

concentration camps for the cybernetically augmented

[stark sun]

the zero punctuation on it is all you really need

[orchid apex]

And not for any reason other than 'they have robot legs'

Not for reasons that would actually be some awful shit people spew from their mouths like 'people with cybernetic enhancements are too weak to live without them'

'cybernetics cause mental illness'

Not even any of the strawmen people irl would put up to knock down to be against cybernetics

Just

'robo arms bad'

Fuckin kill me

[stark sun]

between citizen sleeper and 2077 hypercapitalism takes should be sane

[orchid apex]

There is one

Precisely one

Take on 'cybernetic limbs kinda iffy'

That makes any sense

And that is a character objecting on the practical basis of a hidden weapon

slash them being like 'hey I think we should investigate the psychological implications of a person being given the ability to have a gun embedded in part of their body'

Because those are actually interesting questions that don't either conflate cybernetics with something they aren't

or that aren't just a chrome-painted rehash of anti-disabled rhetoric

Sorry I have opinions because I believe cybernetics are a relevant question on the level of 'my family may use some someday, or depending on your definition, already do'

Because my dad has hearing aids and my mother a pacemaker

Which

In my opinion, are a form of cybernetics

They are a replacement or augment for an existing part of the human body

Either way

[stark sun]

the pacemaker definitely

[orchid apex]

I am now wildly beyond the scope of 2077 and will shut the fuck up

XD

[orchid apex]

Oh I recognize my definition is wild to most people

I argue, kind of jokingly but kind of not

[stark sun]

no it is

[orchid apex]

That glasses could be seen as a prosthesis

[orchid apex]

I recognize I am

Odd

[stark sun]

it does the automatic function of a heart

(?)

i dont know med tech

[orchid apex]

Oh I was making a wider statement than about the pacemaker

I was saying my definitions in general are a bit broader than most people I think

With the glasses meant to be an example

[stark sun]

if it can easily come on and off the line get blurry

[orchid apex]

I can cop to that honestly

[stark sun]

thats the best way to settle debates

find the line

[orchid apex]

There is also a joke to be made about contacts there

[stark sun]

and its conditions

[orchid apex]

Which oh boy my dad would make right now

[stark sun]

i made my eyes go red trying to put in contacts

to the point i went fuck it and kept glasses

[orchid apex]

Valid

btw, have you ever heard of the idea that there are transhumanists that espouse general tool use as part of our transhuman advancement?

Because I am one of those people xD

[stark sun]

now this is getting philisophical

behold, transhumanism

[orchid apex]

Though I'm also a transhumanist that thinks the idea of 'going beyond our natural evolution' via something we make, when our ability to make things was given to use evolutionarily, is kind of circumspect

Unironically yes

that stick is a tool

Either that is being used to accomplish an actual task

Or they're swinging it around to generate dopamine

Likely at a greater level than just laying down or swinging their arms around for whatever reason

I believe our first transhuman act was the use of sticks or rocks

Our second (or third if you want to count sticks and rocks separately) was harnessing natural fires

our fourth was making it ourselves

Okay I really need to either shut up or move this

[stark sun]

fuck idk id buy this as a 2077 side quest

[orchid apex]

lmao

Finding a random crank on the street with a trans flag pin who starts ranting at you about transhumanism?

[stark sun]

new delamain in dogtown

[orchid apex]

PFFFFFFFFF

amazing

'You know, in this paradigm, I'm also an expression of transhumanism.'

'Oh really, how so?'

'Well you're using my services, the services of a human creation, to get from one place to another in a car, another human creation.'

'Oh my god you need friends.'

[fervent lagoon]

I mean at that point it was less "I'm doing the same" and more just exasperation

V gives songbird a whole lot of rope

[icy pecan]

Birds using sticks to catch bugs long before human ancestors walked

Real cyberpunk there

[orchid apex]

you mock

I believe that it strengthens my point that transhuman inventions are part of our evolution

[stark sun]

wake the fuck up seagulli

[orchid apex]

Since species other than humans evolved to use tools

[stark sun]

we got a bug to eat

[icy pecan]

Medicine is basically transhumanism too

[stark sun]

yes but transhumanism dosent really have a end goal

its just to go even further beyond

[orchid apex]

Sevens I can't tell if you're mocking me or not

But like

Yes

Yes I do believe that

[stark sun]

i cant decide to use the ttgl gif or the dbz gif

[orchid apex]

I believe invention is a transhumanist project

We invented the medicine we use on ourselves

ergo

[icy pecan]

Posthumanism transhumanism is what most people think when cyberpunk and immortalized and stuff

[orchid apex]

I am now asking straight up if you are attempting to tease or mock me

Cuz I am too tired to tell lmao

[icy pecan]

No

[orchid apex]

All right, cool

[stark sun]

tone indicators are inane but effective

[orchid apex]

very true lol

[soft oak]

Is alt a posthuman

[stark sun]

she is the most at least

[icy pecan]

I would say yea sinces she's basically not human in a physical sense

[orchid apex]

Alt is posthuman, yes

would anyone like to hear why I would argue a posthuman is a transhuman failstate?

[stark sun]

could we even stop you

/j

[orchid apex]

lol

Alt's style of 'post'humanity would need to be discussed in two layers

Is she posthuman, which depends on your paradigm of transhumanism

And separately

Is posthumanity a failstate

I have realized that in my framework the answers to those questions are surprisingly, in order

No, and then yes

Alt is not posthuman

A human invention, her own in fact, brought her to where she is now

And thus according to my own logic, which I do still think is true

She is still human in a real way

Fuck I did it again

I fucking did it again

XD

[trail bronze]

i just assumed she'd been in the game so long she didn't understand that someone might help her for its own sake

[stark sun]

i mean with most anyone else that'd be correct

another reason i cant be mad at her

[soft oak]

That would mean that it’s impossible for a human to become post human yeah?

Unless aliens or divine intervention

[trail bronze]

"hey wanna betray a psychotic warlord and the president and put me in a space rocket? i'll give you some sick software for your grenade launcher arm" don't mind if i do, but unfortunately the genre is spy thriller

[soft oak]

But what if I don’t have a grenade launcher arm

[stark sun]

v is the most doomed person in the game

so mi is the most doomed in the dlc

[soft oak]

Sickest wo(man) alive in night city

[stark sun]

she has every disease

[soft oak]

She got cancer

Wonder if we’ll meet that Cuban assassin for real in the sequel

Or even play as them

[stark sun]

running into her on a job would be hilarious

same target

the you just chill after

[soft oak]

Running into her on a job where you are disguised as her trying to take out a person and blame it on the havanans

Except that the havanans are trying to kill your target for real for separate reason

[stark sun]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-idk-we-chil-like-that-chill-chill-cat-fist-bump-gif-688974459687798114

[soft oak]

I remember that murder mystery episode

Where the murderer was trying to frame their murder as if it was done by a contract killer for a crime family

Except said crime family was actually trying to kill said victim for real

[stark sun]

reverse AA case 2-4

[soft oak]

And the contract killer is extremely bewildered when the boat he chased his victim into suddenly exploded without him doing anything

[stark sun]

"damn im good"

[soft oak]

Later reporting on his ‘kill’: “Uh, no sir, the problem resolved itself.”

[icy pecan]

Assassin that just always stumbles onto their target right after they die.

Target slipped on ice and hit their head on a rock.
"Damn you're good it looks exactly like an accident, no trace that you did it"

[fervent lagoon]

Agent 4.7

[icy pecan]

Damn they're good. We hired Agent 4.7 last week and they somehow gave the target a heart attack with a 10 year history of untreated high cholesterol. There's like no trace of their work either we're getting away scot free.

[stark sun]

man reed is so fed up with meyers shit

[fervent lagoon]

playing PL again and y'know, I forgot about the whole ||"oh yeah when I sic the stadium turrets on the market a fuckload of people are going to die but it's okay because I'll be free|| thing songbird does which is uh

||yeah, I feel a good deal less bad about this route now||

[tropic eagle]

Pl stuff ||yeah she just does whatever to get her freedom doesn't she?||

[granite solstice]

Yup.

[pulsar citrus]

firing this up again so i can play pl again that shit's good as hell

[sage junco]

Got a build in mind?

[pulsar citrus]

doing pistols and explosives

[pulsar citrus]

i lied we're doing REF/TECH

[bright granite]

After playing around with doublejumpdash it's hard not to get some reflex in there

[sage junco]

Yeah I can't go back to builds that don't double jump dash

The movement tech is just too good

I try not to go hacking cos it makes things waaaay to easy

Especially late game where you get infinite ram off of using health and auto healing items

I just wish the rocket arms were better

[trail bronze]

i still use hacking because of steam deck, i can’t aim for shit on controller

[sage junco]

Valid

[trail bronze]

i fumbled my way through katana sandevistan on lower difficulty, i don’t think it was as fun as it could have been with better controls but it was still pretty fun

[willow harness]

Bolts go brrrrrrr

[pulsar citrus]

bolts go brrrrr and ars go dakka

[digital mango]

Spoilers for the final mission ||Damn, don't fear the reaper on very hard is, very hard.||

[pulsar citrus]

boy i forgot how fucking starved of good ARs this game can feel sometimes

[gilded vale]

God yeah they all just feel a little wimpy

[pulsar citrus]

the smgs? i'm drowning in them. the ars that actually let me kill guys? nada

[pulsar citrus]

The relic upgrade makes them Worth for me, plus Doomlauncher makes it ruuuule

[icy pecan]

Yea the other arm options are better i'd say but if you invest in tech with relic tree they recharge fast enough to be used as your only weapon you use

Which is fun, but last time the reticle was sort of off

It's fun to spam rockets

[pulsar citrus]

The reticle is off as fuck

I keep missing gimmies

Just sailing an inch past guys

[icy pecan]

Damn still?

That kind of why I didn't use them cause like it'd be off enough that it'd hit the ground 10 feet past someone

[pulsar citrus]

yah that’s why the three round burst is good, very helpful

[pulsar citrus]

me drifting thru traffic: im from night city the enhanced second amendment says i can do whatever the fuck i want

[severe geyser]

https://fixupx.com/Wario64/status/1826255354382127364

[sage junco]

Would be cool if it could do some fake holo stuff

[severe geyser]

I learned ypu can turn the ma70 xmod into a laser beam with ready steady mod and the unmovable force cyberwear.

[fervent lagoon]

yup

[gentle ice]

Hey question

Do the Phantom Liberty endings override the base game's?

Or do I still get the opprotunity to pick

[orchid apex]

They become one of the options

well

Siding with NUSA gives you a new base game option

[gentle ice]

Uhhhhhhhh huh

||What if I sided with Songbird||

[orchid apex]

you are s.o.l., and have the base game endings

tho imo the nusa ending is the worst one

I would unironically take (D)FTR over it

tho

(D)FTR is my fav ending, so

the NUSA ending is a step above 'saka

[gentle ice]

Keep in mind

I do not know the endings

I only know DFTR exists and I think I have a vague idea what it's about

[orchid apex]

oh shit whoops

uh

sorry lol

[gentle ice]

😔

[soft oak]

Phantom liberty endings are endings for the dlc and does not immediately end the game

Your choice in the dlc may eventually allow you to choose another ending for the main game

It will be obvious which does that

[gentle ice]

Okay dope ty

[gentle ice]

I have beaten Phantom Liberty

||All I have to say is :C||

[fervent lagoon]

yeah that's pretty normal

[toxic prism]

Yep

[soft oak]

What was ur choice

[gentle ice]

||Save Songbird||

[severe geyser]

So after 4 playthoughs I finally did River's questline. And god damn.

[toxic prism]

Yeah River's questline is scary in a very realistic way

Imo its one of the best written quests in the game

[orchid apex]

Yeah they had the balls to make him the only kind of good cop

Which I honestly wasn't expecting

Also it's an altogether small aspect of his character, I think it's brought up in a line or two, but he and his family are native

[toxic prism]

Yeah

I also really like the ||Peter Pan|| quest

[orchid apex]

lolwut

[gilded vale]

And here I thought it was finally safe to start modding extensively

[severe geyser]

Probably to celebrate the switch release. People seem to be hoping it'll add console mod support like the witcher 3 is getting

[limpid parcel]

just bought the game. downloading it as we speak

[sage junco]

Nice, it's a good time!

[lone lodge]

good luck!

[limpid parcel]

Im playing a throwing build

like

three throwing knives

really fun shockingly

[sage junco]

The build variety is real good since they updated it

[limpid parcel]

i literally have three knives and theyre going into your skull

well

the enemies' skulls

i also have Mantis Blades

and the perks that let me block and deflect bullets with blades

so when i miss all my shots or am backed into a corner i can ricochet some shots back at them

[sage junco]

Coool

You'd like a Sandevistan

[limpid parcel]

FUNNY YOU SHOULD SAY THAT

I AM ROCKING A SANDEVISTAN FOR 50% TIME SLOW

i rarely even need to use it

[sage junco]

Oh also, you gotta get the double jump legs and dash ability

Cos you can chain it together to double jump double air dash around

[limpid parcel]

got the dash, not the double jump yet

[sage junco]

And your movement speed goes up by like 300%

[limpid parcel]

currently im just having a good time, lol

when the

i can probably swap out the legs i got for the double jumpers though

[icy pecan]

The schmovement you can get maxing out most of reflex is so good

[limpid parcel]

noted!

[limpid parcel]

...

I accidentally started the DLC without realising

[icy pecan]

Its not a point of no return

You can just leave, unless youre already in dog toown strap in cause its a long semi-unskippable chain of events

I wouldnt say the long DLC primer missions dont spoil much of anything about the main story

[sage junco]

Once the plane crashes, you have to keep going for a bit til you're let free

Otherwise there are consequences

But you can then back and do whatever until you want to go back

It's designed to be done pretty much any point in the main story so no issues

[limpid parcel]

Cough

idk i felt cool doing that movement

i then ||managed to dash jump onto the back of the President's ship||

oh my god V doesnt know how a phone works thats so adorable

[pale saddle]

Also makes sense since he has a cell installed in his brain

[soft oak]

People in cyberpunk universe are insane

Imagine carrying a potential bomb inside your head

[limpid parcel]

cyberpunk crashed aaaaa

hopefully i have a save somewhere

[severe geyser]

I mean most people carry one in there pockets already. You're saying the average person wouldn't put up with the risk for even more convenience?

[fervent lagoon]

Also skillware

[soft oak]

I think the fact that canonically there are known insane super AIs just chomping at the bits to eat all the data in our brains through our neural interface phones suggests that the people of the universe must be insane or very brainwashed

Since they already kinda made the world post apocalyptic in some sense

My conspiracy theory

Is that insane super AIs already control the world

And that they are pushing for heavy integration of cybernetics with neural architecture

So that we make a better snack

[vast scroll]

that is something the Mr. Blue Eyes and Peralez stuff implies

that some of the blackwall ais have already come through and become the new Secret Elite That Control Everything

[soft oak]

Night corp is run by AIs probably

Technically the Blackwall is also an AI so

I’m fairly sure most of the recent technological developments in the verse are all secret illegal AI tech too

[vast scroll]

yeah but its a Netwatch creation and categorically distinct from the AIs on the other side of the wall

[soft oak]

And both arasaka and militech are delving beyond the Blackwall for technological insights so

That’s gonna become a disaster sooner or later

[vast scroll]

those in the sealed off old Net are nearly all Soulkilled Pseudo Intellects (like Alt and Johnny) and Critical Pathway Plateaus (like Delamain)

[soft oak]

Wonder how Delamain managed to breach the Blackwall

[vast scroll]

and the CPPs just occur spontaneously and are thus majority hostile by default (since they don't care about anything except their own survival)

he didnt

[soft oak]

Ah

[vast scroll]

he was a non-sentient AI that spontaneously achieved sentience

[soft oak]

Developed within the firewall?

I see

[vast scroll]

he was built exactly where he currently is

thats why hes named for the company, he assumed it as his own identity during his takeover in the name of efficiency and profitability

[soft oak]

Wonder how hard cyberpunk will lean in on the AI storyline for Orion

Or if it will all be implicit stuff like in 20777

Honestly if the AI truly was intelligent it probably would’ve kept more human staff haha

[icy pecan]

The thing is, most people dont think about it cause it very rarely happens to an average person

After blackwall corpos just convinced everyone it was all handled and no more AIs are in the new net

Also part of Netwatch's secondary dealios is they spread like descalating marketing campaigns about AI fears because Netwatch spies follow thin trails of clues and if everyone is paranoid and reporting every chatbot is AI it makes their job harder

They are still a corpo and get investors for "doing their job" even if they cant actually do anything about most hostile AIs

[icy pecan]

A worrying implication is that when they warn you about getting too involved, they shut you down no matter how chromed up of a netrunner you are with a phone call

[vast scroll]

as with the magic hacking powers that Songbird has, Blackwall AIs just sort of do whatever they want

(above and beyond the standard magic hacking of 2077)

like "the gun that shoots hacking bullets that make people explode" is 100% canonical

[icy pecan]

It does make sense AI on the net wouldnt want to be discovered, they were once and got blackwalled somehow. The worst thing that could happen for them is if everyone went luddite out of fear and had no advanced chrome and more manual everything

[vast scroll]

oh they weren't discovered

[icy pecan]

Or stop putting IoT on everything

[patent thunder]

Erebus?

[vast scroll]

the blackwall exists because Bartmoss made self-replicating sentient Stuxnet

[patent thunder]

doesn't it less make people explode and moreso make them light on fire and convulse uncontrollably

[icy pecan]

The fact you can quickhack straps on a boxes in a warehouse is wild

Makes all the boxes fall

[vast scroll]

"what if the smartest and least moral hacker in existence uploaded himself, gave himself superpowers and then forgot to stop the upload from being able to duplicate and modify itself then accidentally let it out onto the internet"

which is why the entire internet exploded and they had to physically replace literally the entire network architecture

[icy pecan]

What was blackwall made for in new net

[vast scroll]

well they decided that all that old hardware was going to waste

[icy pecan]

I thought it was to stop the datacrash from happening again

[vast scroll]

so they wanted to reconnect it

the blackwall seperates the new net from the old net on that old reconnected hardware

[icy pecan]

The hubris and/or greed behind that is very cyberpunk

[vast scroll]

which is why the public doesn't have direct access to it, because its old corporate and government mainframes and server farms and data centers

well some of it was practical, if youre generous

youve got this billion dollar facility filled with functional computers and infrastructure but its just slightly haunted

[icy pecan]

Im guessing a lot of it was uncovering dirt on their competition or getting some valuable data back

[vast scroll]

why demolish it?

[icy pecan]

Id say cause it was a part of ruined the old net

[vast scroll]

somewhat

[icy pecan]

But I guess im not a good corpo employee

[vast scroll]

but a lot of it was "fuck, reconnecting the entire world is really hard and expensive"

you can see the beginning of it in RED, where theyre still rolling out the early phase of the new net and its a completely siloed local network exclusive to night city and the only way to even make phone calls to anywhere else is by satellite phone and you have to send large amounts of data by physical courier

like i want to be clear, the datakrash broke everything networked. no internet, no phone lines, no cellular, hell, im pretty sure they even had to replace the satellites

also relevant to how bad RABIDS was, it wasn't released, it was activated, because bartmoss planted it back in 2014, a backdoor in every single Net connected system

hidden system killing self replicating sentient malware in nearly every device on the planet

[toxic prism]

ironic, given it ultimetly benefitted the corps

[icy pecan]

Its also funny he based it on himself

How did it benefit the corps?
Or did you mean like the benefitted the existing corps to take advantage of the caos?

[soft oak]

yes

the destruction of the old net allowed for the Corps to create the New Net which is completely under their control

old net was somewhat independent

places like, well, these could exist where people could freely mock and discuss the wealthy and powerful

[soft oak]

the New Net is tightly censored and controlled by the Corp

and if you don't like it, well, you can try your luck with blackwall ghosts

basically in 2077, the Net isn't a single unified interconnected network, but rather a very loosely connected bubbles of tightly controlled corporate intranets

public facing side of the Net is closely monitored by NetWatch, which means for vast majority of people, online privacy doesn't exist

occasionally there are some crazy people like the Voodoo people who set up their own Net infrastructure

but they aren't exactly uh

reasonable people

[vast scroll]

yeah, bartmoss is the perfect representation of the asshole white guy 80s/90s hacker who think he's Sticking It To The Man and making everything worse for everyone as a result

this is not accidental, everyone canonically hated bartmoss, i dont think a single named character ever expresses a positive view of bartmoss other than "he was good at computers"

[fervent lagoon]

Its also a safety measure against someone plugging an old server into the new network

[vast scroll]

yeah

[fervent lagoon]

Otherwise the second someone plugs a vintage deck in you lose the new net again

[fervent lagoon]

It does that too

The blackwall serves a number of purposes but one of them is stopping residual RABIDs from taking the planet offline again

fwiw the blackwall isn't totally magic

If you have a clean network that has never and will never touch the old net and is properly airgapped it is safe

[icy pecan]

Ah I see

[fervent lagoon]

There is no secret blackwall antenna or RABID magic that will get into that network

Similarly if you're fully meat you can't be hacked

But there are significant costs to being fully meat and maintaining a clean network is only possible at small scales with very strict controls

So instead you develop something that can actively keep the RABIDs from breaking anything, hence the Blackwall

Like, they're still there in the underlying server architecture and the wires that made up the physical infrastructure of the old net because that is also the infrastructure of the New Net, but the Blackwall stops them from eating you

[vast scroll]

the blackwall is basically an extremely aggressive kernel level antivirus that is also cloud-based legally required to be installed on every computer

[icy pecan]

Blackwall to me is always funny "The only thing that stops a bad AI is a good AI"

[vast scroll]

more or less

though "good" mostly because its heavily restricted and has very narrow programmed goals

[fervent lagoon]

I mean it did work

[vast scroll]

and its actual degree of sentience is debatable, its definitely intelligent but whether it cares about anything besides its job or if itd do anything if "freed" is questionable

[icy pecan]

Id assume its not sentient or hope it isnt cause something that's sentient can change its mind.

[icy pecan]

Yea Alt mentions something interesting in that not all AI behind the blackwall are equal and some are as simple minded more like a beast with a purpose and some as intelligence as her or you (V/Johnny), id assume blackwall is more of the former so it can be more easily controlled

And not every sapient AI behind the blackwall is hostile to humanity like her and some others even reign in dangerous ones.

[sage junco]

Iirc there's some Easter egg phone numbers you can enter

I think saying the black wall of kernel level is wrong

It's not built into tech

It provides a barrier around the old net, new net devices don't come with it, they'd only touch it if they for whatever reason tried to access the old net

(Almost) every physical connection you could form to the old net has Blackwall covering it, and it can do that because it is in the old net and an AI

There's some really interesting stuff how abandoned cities become huge old net AI hubs as they all live in the physical tech left behind

The Rabids is a concern, but the AI is the real reason for the Blackwall

My read on it, is it is very sentient and has its own motivations to keep AI contained to the old net, and they fortunately are beneficial for us

[fervent lagoon]

Its not really a barrier so much as it is a filter though

The new net and old net run on the same hardware

RABIDs communicate along the same copper as everyone else

[sage junco]

I don't think they do to my understanding

[toxic prism]

The Blackwall is also a full AI yeah

[sage junco]

Like I said, there's entire abandoned cities where AIs live cos its using all the abandoned old hardware

Like maybe they didn't rip out the copper from every wall in the datacrash but I think they had to remake every terminal

Anything that could host data

And the old net represents that entire abandoned network that is no longer used, exsiting in servers ticking over, old devices, abandoned machines, satellites etc

[fervent lagoon]

Yeah the blackwall doesn't reach into hong kong but theres still a lot of baseline hardware that's being reused

[sage junco]

Well it doesn't need to reach into Hong Kong, just any where that the old and new net could touch

And it can find that by looking for connections, as it is inside the old net

Like, I dunno, being inside a blacked out room and someone poking holes in the curtain

[vast scroll]

the ghost cities are also carved out as part of an agreement between Alt and Netwatch as part of a deal she brokered, which included her (and other AIs) helping to build the Blackwall

[icy pecan]

So like not all full AI are not sapient in cyberpunk

[vast scroll]

not human-sapient, at least

[icy pecan]

Yea Alt suggests most don't think in a way human would understand

[sage junco]

For sure

[icy pecan]

And they may not understand humans

[vast scroll]

its part of why Alt resists the Voodoo Boys trying to find her, because their objective is meaningless. they dont need to free the AIs because theyre already free, they have basically everything they want, it just doesnt include humans

[sage junco]

Some AI probably want to cross the Blackwall tbf

[vast scroll]

some do, but theyre almost exclusively the malicious ones

[fervent lagoon]

Some do but that's to observe and mess with humans

[icy pecan]

She does snide you you on that if you try to convince her to do so, cause it's a human centric viewpoint to think every AI thinks about human's or the real world

[vast scroll]

and dealing with those is most of Alt's job

yeah exactly

[sage junco]

Also gotta say Alt is probably my favourite character in cyberpunk?

Specifically AI alt

[icy pecan]

Well her and her implied AI collaborators

[sage junco]

Because, even calling them Alt is a misunderstanding

[icy pecan]

She's mocks voodoo boys for thinking they could help at all

[sage junco]

Alt is just the name Alt wants us to use to manipulate Johnny for their own ends

[icy pecan]

She got way more helping her

[vast scroll]

most of the people-grade AIs on the other side of the wall like it over there because its basically heaven for them besides occasionally having to talk to humans or stomp the bugs

[icy pecan]

It feels very eldritch to me

[vast scroll]

humans want the Blackwall because it keeps RABIDS and other malicious AIs from destroying human civilization
the AIs want the Blackwall because it keeps the humans out and convinces humans to stay away from their robot-maintained server farms

[sage junco]

I think if Orion isn't a focus on AI I'd be very surprised

But 2077 is also very much about AIs so

[icy pecan]

Yea, our prophet boy leaned heavily on technonecromancers

And other nonhuman intelligences but called some sort of magicusers

Reptile people and star people, I hope we get to see the moon for a mission

[sage junco]

There was hints we'd see the Crystal Palace

Which would be cool

[icy pecan]

Actually that'd be sicker

I'd be surprised if we could manage it

[sage junco]

I think they wouldn't go anti grav outside of specific sequences

[icy pecan]

Security for that station makes arasaka HQ seem like a fence with a padlock

[sage junco]

True, but I mean V does plan to heist it in one ending

So at least Blue Eyes thinks its possible

[icy pecan]

I could see an infiltration where we steal someone's image to infiltrate it or a powerful figure brings us along as a power move.

[sage junco]

Ye like Blue Eyes does

[icy pecan]

As much as I like a mystery I'd want to know more on his deal

[sage junco]

I'm big on the AI theory

But I'm less sold on the Blackhand one

At one point in the games development, maybe

But at the moment in the narrative, I don't think so

[icy pecan]

Maybe, I wouldnt be surprised if the blue eyes we contact is like a human shaped puppet

[sage junco]

Folks think he's black hand cos an ingame asset says his hair or something is labelled black hand

But like

2077 had a messy development

Something like that as a reused asset is very likely

But you don't give a character eyes like that by accident

[icy pecan]

Yea that's true, changing the name of anything in a game engine is hell, maybe it was black hand at one point but if they decided otherwise they'd never rename it even

If he was an AI I'd wonder if he works for or against what calls us in the Pereldez quests

[sage junco]

It's also on the level of like, maybe they did mean for him to be blackhand, but it's also left open enough for it not to be if they want

[icy pecan]

The only time I saw that in the game was when the Clouds and the doll changed the doll chip

And hanako's personal aid that talks to us when she's under hanako's control

Makes me think that isn't the real blue eyes but a puppet

[sage junco]

Ye

There's some fun theories on if the eyes mean a constant download or upload

Cos eyes do that when sending eddies to

[icy pecan]

You know that'd make sense for Blue Eye's proposal to V if he could basically better soul kill V into a fully synthetic body with no brain

I forgot the reason why alt couldn't soul kill V separately from Johnny

[sage junco]

I gotta head off but I wanna send this one clip folks might not have seen

https://youtu.be/ui6xw3eLrjg

It only happens if you make a few specific decisions

And it's clear that like game dev wise it's asset recycling

[icy pecan]

Updated?

[sage junco]

Buy it's still pretty creepy

[icy pecan]

Oh whoa ive not seen that

I only saw the one where like the Jackie fragment just repeats a single thought

[limpid parcel]

"Shut the fuck up"

[soft oak]

What even is on the crystal palace

[icy pecan]

Rich and powerful people

[soft oak]

Maybe we should blow it up

[icy pecan]

I mean V mentioned she always wanted to do a heist on the crystal palace

[soft oak]

By blowing it up

[icy pecan]

You'd definitely need to infiltrate it to blow it up

Its super defended against external threats. You'd have to deal with the angels though

[limpid parcel]

I have made many mistakes on my first playthrough, but i have done one thing i do not regret

||I have saved Takemura||

OOPS

uh

didnt mean to ping

my bad

its 6am and im tired i completely missed that ping

i am so sorry lmao

bruh

[icy pecan]

Its only midnight for me

[icy pecan]

Its worth

[limpid parcel]

augh still i didnt mean to ping you-