dark tidings (Darktide for people in the searchbar)

[opaque crown]

What does the two toxins on the bone saw do?

[spiral badger]

yellow goop is standard poison

purple goop applies brittleness

[opaque crown]

ohhh

hmm whats better to use against what?

[spiral badger]

generally against things that are armored you do purple once and then yellow until purple wears off or they're dead

against everything else you just yellow

[fierce marten]

I wish the animation was quicker though

Crowbar's switching is smooth

[brave otter]

I've been wondering
Does the time to purple up and get out of purple even justify using it
It seems like you could just focus on building chem toxin and hitting more attacks in that timespan

[fierce marten]

Imo, no. The shivs with hyperviolence kills crushers faster than purple bonsaw ime but I usually don't do melee scum

But like bone shivs can get wild with it and like 1-2 shot a crusher with a heavy stab if you manage hyperviolence right

Which involves not taking hypercritical cause it is an insta kill effect so it doesn't trigger on kill stuff so you get 0 overflow damage from hypercritical when you otherwise would have without it

[spiral badger]

My general conclusion so far is that bonesaw is inferior to just running crit build with tac axe or shiv or knife

Largely because the toxins applying attacks are the slowest, most animation locked ones

By the time the bonesaw has done two ripping heavies or whatever I've crit smacked that crusher 4 times

[flint moss]

purple is so short its kind useless unless you want to soften smth up while teammates shoot it

[silk sundial]

Bonedsw is best for cartel special dependecy shenanigans

Especially with rampage

Since tac axe isn’t guaranteed to poison them before killing but saw will

[ionic tusk]

also afaik bonesaw doesn't get the exceptions to make chem toxin count as normal kills for stuff like needle pistol does

[full mortar]

I think the value for the purple coating is only 2.5% per stack anyway

[silk sundial]

Didn’t know that

It’s if you want to really invest in bottom roght

[silk sundial]

So needless to say pistol won’t refresh cartel special faster?

[silk sundial]

How do cleave and hit mass interact?

[fierce marten]

I think Clem understands hitmass and cleave best

I think he wrote a steam guide for it but I have no idea where its at

[cyan depot]

My very vague understanding is that hit mass is how much cleave a given target consumes and when it runs out the attack stops

[fierce marten]

Yea that is how it is in practice, also each enemy hit after the 1st one progressively deals less damage and weapons with low cleave can either just like deal very little damage at the end of a swing or get caught and stop mid swing.

High cleave is very nice as for weapons with wide swings youre dealing as close as you can to your original damage on the first target

Ignore hit mass blessings also are great for this reason cause lets say you happen to have a ignore hit mass on crit blessing and crit on your first 3 targets then those targets get dealt full damage before drop occurs. Creature Spawner mod letting you spawn dense hordes in psychkarium is very nice for testing cleave

[mortal crystal]

I use both

because both are worth the points

[silk sundial]

I’ve mostly been beelining for the big skills, rethinking how I’ve been doing builds though, been learning a lot with scum

What class do people think ‘cryptic’ will be?

Tech priest is my guess

[fierce marten]

Necron Cryptek /s

[slender shell]

Jakero

[fierce marten]

Imagine though

People would go wild it would be the end times

You want skitarii and beastman? We can do both

[slender shell]

You have one voice line and it's ook

[marsh gyro]

This is the important thing to understand yeah, the only thing that isn't intuitive is knocking around enemies with stagger gives you bonuses to how many you can cleave since stagger states reduce hit mass consumed per enemy

[spiral badger]

https://www.rxddit.com/r/DarkTide/comments/1puazhr/how_it_feels_to_spam_the_dual_stub_pistol_special/

[silk sundial]

Does the inquisition have any home trained troops or are they all recruited?

[shrewd kite]

i'm pretty sure the inquisition recruits out of the schola progenium like the other adeptas

[silk sundial]

Ugh, finished a rolling thunder mission then it crashed and kicks me out

So I didn’t get any rewards

[cyan depot]

The Inquisition maintains its own Tempestus-like formations of storm troopers

[shrewd kite]

oh, if we mean military troops then each ordos has its own homegrown military, right? Deathwatch, grey knights, sisters of battle

but those are generally for bigger deals than atoma is my understanding

[tough compass]

If Inquisitors mostly operate independently, how does the requisition process for the originations storm troopers work?

[fierce marten]

You approach them, tell them to get on the ship, and they will because of the implications

[cyan depot]

Those are also quasi-independent but affiliated

[silk sundial]

I think sisters are technically under the church’s jurisdiction

[waxen patio]

SoB are the military forces of the Ecclesiarchy, yes. "No man shall take up arms, okay then it'll be all women lmao" or some similar loophole

[fierce marten]

Imagine explaining to someone the history of the SoB and Gogh Van Dire

Why is SoB all women? Oh boy take a seat

[spiral badger]

i mean the short version is "there used to be male warriors for the ecclesiarchy but one dumbass tried to do a rebellion and they were probited from having 'men under arms,' thus the sisters"

it's also why the sisters are trained in the scholas, outside of the ecclesiarchy's direct control

[brave otter]

But also the sisters existed in another form before that, and the phrasing might have been specifically to allow them to continue to exist

[sonic elbow]

clearly they should've given the men bayonetta heel guns so they're no longer under arms

[silk sundial]

Scum has a lot of good talents, hard to find space for all of them

Bonus ammo and ogryn damage are both very tempting to grab

[ionic tusk]

I think the node that does that inherently counts chem toxin kills

🤔 maybe it counts all dot kills
there isn't really any ryhme or reason to what works and what doesn't with the needle pistol tho because it's specific exemptions

and I was commenting that bone saw isn't getting any exemptions in patch notes but still does a lot of chem toxin damage so should have similar issues
tho ultimately it's less of an issue because there's less specifically melee kill procs in the talent tree

[cyan depot]

Yeah shooting vandire probably had something to do with it

[drowsy tusk]

<@&1042950387478560878> tidemas eve tiding tide tide??!?

[silk sundial]

Can blessed stims be used to regain a wound or does it o my work on one that’s not filled inyet

[uneven turret]

the stimms heal corruption?
last i checked it clears wounds

[tough compass]

Wait, that's wild. No other corruption healing effect works that way right?

[silk sundial]

It’s a node hive scum gets

[uneven turret]

i may be wrong

although it is capped so you cant remove a full wound in one stimm

[flint moss]

ive used it and it didnt clear wounds for me

[clear ridge]

don't think anything that clears corruption does unless it says otherwise

[tough compass]

Yeah, that's my expectation

It's a bit weird it's the node above the ability that removes corruption

[frank igloo]

https://youtu.be/-yNOgWLJtdU

[silk sundial]

especially since the longer stimms effect that chemist dependency builds like is on the other side, although I don't think that works with stimm supply

[worldly talon]

They also have these guys

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crusader

[flint moss]

<@&1042950387478560878> anyone up for darkyuletide

[drowsy tusk]

Yeag

Making dinner rn don’t wait for me to start doing runs

[opaque crown]

I gotta say the dual auto pistols on desperado feel so good to use

[frank igloo]

Yee

[silk sundial]

Braced auto gun and stub pistols have been what I’ve been using

I was finding issues dealing with ranger wnemies with the dual autos

You know what would be a neat class? A heretek with a mechanic to build your own guns

[flint moss]

heretics are not allowed on the mourningstar

[opaque crown]

I run runngun on the dual autos to help with accuracy

[cyan depot]

I think it's a good perk for em even with sprint shooting also coming from desperado

[ionic tusk]

🤔 does desperado grant sprinting attacks?
afaik it's basekit to the dual autopistols

also if you want even more accuracy/a different blessing I like this node :3

[cyan depot]

Oh maybe, I ran run&gun on them for so long I wasn't sure

And desperado has good uptime

[ionic tusk]

🤔 do you take cooldown stim?

ime it has really long periods of uptime but then the downtime period is also fairly long since it starts afterwards and is 45s base (and other classes tend to have single talent cooldown reductions/shorter base cooldowns)

[mortal crystal]

I recommend sprinting at them full speed with the triggers held down

It tends to work out

[cyan depot]

I do run it a lot yeah

[acoustic wharf]

Desperado doesn't give sprinting shooting by default to my knowledge

[mortal crystal]

Dual Autopistols has it by default tho

It's extremely fun

[frank igloo]

execution stance should get buffs tbh, it feels anemic compared to desperado

[opaque crown]

The biggest advantage is that desperado is unlimited ammo when it's on. Feels like ex stance should at least get that

I wonder what would give the stance some real sauce

[marsh gyro]

Executioner's stance was fun for the hip fire bonus to go brrrt with recon lasguns and that's less sustainable these days

[ionic tusk]

there's still crazy recon lazgun vet builds but taking exe stance doesn't really help your dps as much as shout helps your survivability, ability to push stuff away and keep shooting, and team support

at least it has the toughness regen now
the damage increases are only like, 1-3 nodes worth of stuff, whereas the support/survivability benefits of abilities are usually way better and harder to quantify

[ionic tusk]

the uptime is probably too good for infinite ammo but like 33% ammo efficiency on top of shock trooper/something else (and maybe make shock trooper a cleave node for other guns?) would be nice

the funny thing is: desperado isn't even a damage ability, it gives no damage buffs without the +15% rending node
it's just, toughness to 100%, +20% movespeed, infinite ammo, and immunity to ranged attacks

[ionic tusk]

some other day I'll have to post my 'exe stance isn't real' build which is just an exe stance build that uses shout instead

[clear ridge]

that rending goes crazy though tbf

its uptime isn't incredible, but the stimm's really can be on d5

and pairing em together is an on-demand 30% rending that makes crusher armor fucking paper

[ionic tusk]

yeah I use the 30% rending combo
I don't think it's actually good at killing crushers with dual autos but it raises it to 'mid tier melee weapon' at it which is a huge help if you don't want to melee
esp. since you don't have to be in melee range

[clear ridge]

i mean, it's better than a vast majority of weapons at crusher duty

not a thunder hammer, for sure

but "kills two crushers in a mag" is more than i can ask of basically anything

[ionic tusk]

eh I still find that like, tac axe/combat axe tier speed
whereas other options can delete the crushers (uncanny dueling sword, grenade tinker kraks), control them while dealing decent damage (arbites shock maul, thunder hammer, crowbar), and then other stuff like voidblast/shredders which won't kill quickly but will cc them like crazy

also having to have 2 cooldowns active requires a lot of investment

[frank igloo]

they need to give it the automatic reload it used to have, as well as increased reload speed and ammo efficiency

[drowsy tusk]

Very true, I remember near release emptying revolver into the beast pimple and then activating stance to do it again was pretty cool

[tough compass]

Wait, it doesn't have autoreload anymore? Bizarre

[marsh gyro]

Bolter stocks were too high

[opaque crown]

Yeah bolter double mag dump was great

Honestly I don't see it being a big problem though, compared to some other classes' efficiencies

[marsh gyro]

It was a different era when Crushers had 3k HP and bolters could two tap them

[opaque crown]

I'm sure there's a number of ways to put the sauce back into exec stance, just that rn its a little lackluster I think

[shrewd kite]

i think it still benefits from being probably the highest-uptime ability in the game with a bit of management

it's not difficult to keep it running for a minute+ and chain them when they do run out

i still prefer exec to PBB tbh, even though it's less flashy

[ionic tusk]

even if it has 100% uptime it's just not that impactful

as a mostly damage ability it needs to get it's value from killing more than you can without the ability
and you can still kill really well without the ability, unless your build is set up to not hit a ton of breakpoints without it (which you could probably fix by changing your other talents)

[spiral badger]

honestly the nicest thing about exec stance is the highlighting

[opaque crown]

the biggest thing about exec is that its not an o shit button, its a go hard button, so you have no fallback tools to control space beyond shooting more gooder

compared to the invis which dumps agro and the shout which clears space

i guess it does help you restore toughness

[wraith grove]

Question, what happens if you take dog less arbites and the dog grenade?

[cyan depot]

You can’t

Taking dogless locks dogbomb

[wraith grove]

Ah ok

[full mortar]

Hovering over lone wolf will show you which talents its incompatible with

[tough compass]

Which is good. Because the kennel would really not appreciate the dog exploding randomly while you are out on a mission

[sacred pagoda]

"Why did you D O G E X P L O D E ?"

[fierce marten]

The dog still explodes randomly when you're not there but it's just not on the mission with you

Dog EMP upsets the infinite explosives printer's machine spirits.

[bronze gull]

ngl im wondering if i should get hive scum mainly for the rocket launcher and the akimbo guns
How have y'all been enjoying the class?

[clear ridge]

very strong, extremely fun

has a number of very distinct viable playstyles, but almost all of them are still pure dps

there are like two different types of toxin build, the I Am Untouchable uzis build, a couple melee, and then drugfiend support

dunno how that one is

but the rockets hit like the hammer of god, the uzis are very fun and rip everything without carapace (or bosses lmao, it's not very good at them) apart

[sonic elbow]

I was very pleased to hear that shredder is competitive with uzis

my favourite shitty gun

[worldly talon]

Rockets are fun to just see a Crusher conga line and go "No."

[clear ridge]

piercing bulwarks is very fun

the one downside of rockets (which i emphatically approve of) is that they're slow as all fuck

it takes a year and a half to whip one out and then let it prime and shoot

and I have died so many times trying to navigate that timing

but this is a good thing, because otherwise it's like the ogryn nuke grenade except you have four of them instead of one

and they're impact instead of taking a second or two to land

[opaque crown]

The drugs seem to be the best crowd control

But dual mac 10s is just a good time

[uneven turret]

stub pistols very fun at removing ragers and rockets great for killing crushers and bosses

[shrewd kite]

the blast radius on them is forgiving enough that i don't even properly aim them a lot of the time

just shooting the floor near a crowd/monstrosity is safer than actually going for a hit, which i have whiffed more than once

[ionic tusk]

I've had chaos spawn jump over my rockets a fair few times heheheho

I don't think the boss damage is that great tho, like it takes off a chunk but I find with my build shooting with autopistols deals just as much boss dps without consuming a limited resource 🤔

tho I'm also not great at cheesing uncanny stacks unto it so probably skill issue on my part

still amazing at deleting balls of stuff you don't want to deal with/making space, or a plan B vs bosses that ledge someone you need to both make space for and kill the boss

[mortal crystal]

Drug dispenser support is excellent

You have the buffs from your stim, of course

And because of the node that gives stim CD on kill you can make it a pretty juicy fucking stim

but you also can use the lunch box as a bomb with the explode node

and that explosion hurts

7 stacks of poison is as much as the needle pistol

[clear ridge]

it's not about the aiming, it's about getting mobbed and correctly assessing that you need(/ed) a rocket for the horde instead of just uzis time

[mortal crystal]

AND you also help control the team's corruption both with the immunity and the corruption cleansing

[clear ridge]

before they Fucking Get You

[mortal crystal]

Also you can bring the saw and needle pistol that not only play into the toxin nodes on the tree, they're amazing weapons in their own right

Needle pistol can three shot crushers and can have effectively infinite ammo (take Pickpocket on every build it's that good seriously)

meanwhile the saw is just a solid melee weapon that also makes you stim come back fast and can apply brittleness to big armor hordes that you can't pistol down easily, making them easier for your teammates to pick apart

[shrewd kite]

i can't use any of the scum melees except for the shivs honestly

[mortal crystal]

Take hypercritical and hyper violence.

Tho mostly hypercritical (violence is more for the turbo attack speed stuff like knives or tac axe)

Oh also the attack speed node that gives attack speed based on stamina

Then run two stamina curios

[tough compass]

The crowbar is pretty great

[silk sundial]

Been enjoying it a lot, love the dot and chem dependecy builds

[silk sundial]

If only my team actually stood in it
Especially given how often you drop those things

Rampage saw has also been fun

[flint moss]

tox on crit works great with shred

[ionic tusk]

have you been telling your team what's in it at start of mission? that might increase the rate people use it somewhat

'cause without a mod they can't really tell if it's -4% damage taken or +100% cdr heheho

[silk sundial]

It’s easy to get that thing back every 20-30 seconds

Sample collector + practiced deployment is great

I need to do some math about how many cd reductions are optimal though

[ionic tusk]

all ability cdr nodes should be useless for you personally with practiced deployment

tho your allies will greatly appreciate any on the stim itself

[silk sundial]

Because of how those work they will actually speed up the stimm going off cooldown which then takes deployer of cooldown

Debating between revolver and needler for my stim build

Dual pistols are also a great choice

[tough compass]

Needler is nice as a sidearm as it can kill everything (though it might take longer than desired in some cases)

What's the Advantage of the Mk VI Needler over the Mk II one?

[silk sundial]

none

the area dispersal toxin is the best, the other gets the explosive strain which isn't great

one causes enemies to give a stack to those around them, the other makes them explode upon death
the first is the best and its not even close

[brave otter]

They have an alternate alt fire iirc
Yeah one applies a corpse explosion effect while the other applies chem toxin in an area

[silk sundial]

the main issue I have is that while its great at killing things, it takes time to do that, so it can be a problem in emergencies when dealing with a sniper or trapper and often allies kill the enemy who's poisoned anyways

should try bolt pistol on my builds but the game hasn't given me any to use through drops or the shop

[marsh gyro]

Brunt can will you a Bolt Pistol into existence if you like

[silk sundial]

needs a lot of investement, especially since I'm at the point where I want upper 300 weapons and his are often high 200

[tough compass]

Just have played enough in the past to have excess amounts of resources! Ez

[dawn totem]

Maybe it's me, but I'm seeing way too many Scum players wipe at least several times in a mission.

[warped crown]

it doesn't suprise me
from what i've heard the class is fragile and has a low margin for error

[fierce marten]

Explosive strand also does like 20 damage and can't even kill a poxwalkers

[tough compass]

Does it have decent stagger at least?

[silk sundial]

Yeah it’s laughably bad

[spiral badger]

heard some toxic yuri flirting between femmaul and femloner today
<Maul> you are not entirely incompetent. with some combat training, you could become a truly effective warrior. I... am willing to do so.
<Loner> This is just an excuse to sanction hitting me, isn't it?
<Maul> No. I already have that sanction. This is a legitimate offer.
<Loner> Oh... I am not entirely opposed.

[frank igloo]

fuck yeah

[sharp pine]

It looks like the dirty, evil cousin of the cookie monster

[silk sundial]

Got all the ability achievements for scum, just victories remaining

[fierce marten]

Scum acheivements are like arbites so reasonable to get

I have them all except mission count for scum

[silk sundial]

There’s a lot less jumping through hoops you wouldn’t want to jump anyways

[opaque crown]

I'm probably never going to get all the vet penances tbh, because of the hoop jumping

[wraith grove]

Of the enemy types the dregs and scabs share, are there any where the dreg equivalent is actually more threatening then the scab equivalent?

Because I always feel like the scab version is scarier when I play

[spiral badger]

Pox bombers

The flamers are identical so thats not really a thing

In general the scab version has better armor so it is more annoying

[wraith grove]

The bombers are different?

[spiral badger]

Yeah, the dreg bombers fill a large area with fart gas that lasts forever

[wraith grove]

Oh

I never noticed it’s larger and lasts longer

[spiral badger]

Also it buffs enemies

[wraith grove]

Oh shit

[spiral badger]

20% dr and a speed buff

[wraith grove]

Jesus

[spiral badger]

Its insanely annoying. Scab bombers are more immediately lethal but deny less zone

Oh also pox bombers are quieter and less distinctive

So its harder to pick them off in a crisis

You can't listen for the jingle and home in

[wraith grove]

Yah that’s also true

[slender shell]

Maybe ragers because they're flak armored?

[tough compass]

Dreg bomber cloud also obscures vision. I hate it so much

[silk sundial]

I’ve fled out of the gas into gunner or sniper kill zones before as well

That walkway at the beginning of the moebian steel manufactorum mission for instance

[silk sundial]

Ive honestly had more consistent issues with that short segment that the final set piece

[ionic tusk]

the dreg are supposed to have weaker but more numerous units
and they keep buffing the hp of armored scab units

[ionic tusk]

dreg ragers aren't armored at all visually (but manic armor), scab ragers have a carapace chest and everything else is flak. 🤔 I think dreg ragers might be faster though??

having more of them also proves more devastating when a ball of them runs into you and instantly tears you to pieces (some havoc modifiers make this more potent)

[ionic tusk]

also: me and my friends have noticed this being worse recently (along with smoke nades)

[tough compass]

I thought (dreg?) ragers have maniac armor?

[ionic tusk]

yeah, but afaik that tends to be weaker than flak

[tough compass]

Fair

[ionic tusk]

tho tbf they are of similar tankiness when hitting head exclusively
it's mainly the chest where scab ragers become actually tanky

I do find dreg gunners tankier than scab gunners also because they're unarmored and thus don't get rending bonuses
🤔 and maybe more hp? tho I need to check that

hm, no, they have less hp

idk why but my psyker can brain burst scab gunners easier than dreg gunners

[silk sundial]

https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/a0b414df-7125-4676-867e-3c21d5f69c82/toxic-stimm-spam
what do people think of this build? It's the main one I've been using on the scum. I'm still trying to get the right rolls on weapons those things currently have more random spreads. I'm on difficulty 4 right now but am working up

[ionic tusk]

is difficulty 4 heresy or damnation? (they moved them around so I can't remember heheheho)

[ionic tusk]

afaik long lasting doesn't apply to the ability

[tough compass]

Damnation iirc. They dropped the lowest level and put Auric as a difficulty you can select

[ionic tusk]

I personally would swap the wound curio out for a toughness curio, or if you take this talent, a stamina curio

[silk sundial]

I'm not good enough to go without a wound curio unfortunately

[ionic tusk]

wound curios don't actually help

like, you'll go down less if you take something else
and imo going down is often just as dangerous as dying

[tough compass]

I'm not sure the clip-size increase does much with the Needler? It gets you an extra bullet?

If you can pick up Hive City Brawler, that one is pretty good

[ionic tusk]

another good pick is pickpocket if you still want the clip size

[slender shell]

Pickpocket definitely seems required for scum, thats just infinite ammo

[ionic tusk]

it's heavily team comp dependent but it is probably their best node when it comes up heheho
as time goes on it'll get better as lobbies stop having 2 other pickpockets not taking ammo on average

[silk sundial]

honestly thats a holdover from when I was using the quickdraw and didn't change it

quickdraw gets a lot from that extra sixth round given the high damage and long reload

also because of animation quirks the reload speed for reloading the full mag is always the same

after the gun is finished reloading five rounds the game checks if the weapon is full and if it isn't its given a full clup

[tough compass]

What if you partial reload at 5->6?

[warped crown]

any fellow zealot players here? been having a blast with the class so far

[marsh gyro]

Zealot owns because it embodies DPS and Don't Die (more than once every 90 seconds)

[fierce marten]

I am a zealot main

Once I got all the penaces for hive scum I've went back to zealot

Hive scum is still prevelant and they love chorus

[heavy geyser]

Zealot is the stick propping up the corpse of a dead team. Stay alive and scrape your buddies up off the floor.

[frank igloo]

I love Zealot

[fierce marten]

Zealot tends to be the one good at revives and last one up.

Chorus is great for letting others revive and do objectives and shroudfield for doing objectives or revives

And boss killing

Thammer gets brought up for one shotting monsters but really most zealot builds can chunk a boss's HP easily.

Fury and chain weapon takes out around half without investing in boss killing.

Shroudfield can take out little over half with weak spot backstab.

[frank igloo]

zealot stunstorm nade is also great for keeping stuff locked down for revives

[mortal crystal]

With stuns and chorus a zealot can become basically a giant pause button lol

[mortal crystal]

Tbh everyone loves Chorus

But yes, the space it creates is really handy on the "don't get hit" class

Zealot plus Scum stims is also really fun

Does zealot need 12% attack speed, 20% damage, and 15% rending literally every fight?

No, not really

but will they abuse the shit out of it?

You fucking know it

[acoustic wharf]

Joke's on you I'm hellbent on being Atoma's One-Man Healthcare Delivery Vector and everyone's getting more damage and cooldown reduction

I did not mean for that to be a hard ping

[mortal crystal]

is fine

and that's the beauty of the stim box

It's so customizable

[silk sundial]

Looking at builds and for some reason rampage builds are often using dependecy and supply builds are using adrenaline. Dependecy and stimm supply work great for constant uptime so I wonder why

[ionic tusk]

og dependency did not work with stim supply and even now the first node doesn't help stim supply since it's ability cooldown

🤔 wondering if they'll change over time

[fierce marten]

Only that much?

Always martyr for that mega buff

Just don't die

But unironically as zealot has many get out of jail free cards

[mortal crystal]

This would be in addition to the Martyr buffs

This is what Hive Scum is giving Zealot from their lunch box

[fierce marten]

Oh I see I misread

[mortal crystal]

(now, idk if the buffs are multiplicative or additive)

(I hope multiplicative because number big)

[clear ridge]

strength is additive with strength

rending is additive with rending

[mortal crystal]

Booooo

Well, additive rending is good

But booo to additive strength

[worldly talon]

Just saying

Stim with rending bonus + desperado active with the rending nodes

It's VERY VERY GOOD to be able to kill a Crusher in half a dual autos mag

[ionic tusk]

strength is weird, it's cleave, damage, and impact

some damage only buffs are multiplicative tho 🤔

[clear ridge]

strength affects cleave????????

okay, more obviously a joke: somebody at fatshark needs to be launched into the fucking sun

they have to be screwing with us at this point

[haughty ember]

Strength affects cleave

[marsh gyro]

Several bonus stuff adds up with each other of the same kind then multiplies other types, so cleave bonuses are additive and strength is additive but strength multiplies cleave so you can get like 70 cleave on a Thrust / Wrath Power Sword (11.2 base at 80% roll gets 350% multiplier from Wrath, 160% multiplier from Thrust, gets you 62.72, which is 7 crushers)

[sonic elbow]

strength feels like a holdover from V2's progression system where they went "y'know this is making our descriptions more concise" and never split it up

[frank igloo]

strength used to be power

some descriptions even still use "power"

[silk sundial]

Oh I thought it affected cartel special too since it just says ‘cooldown’ and other places say ‘ability cooldown’

[mortal crystal]

Actually it can help. Stim recharge time can vary widely depending on how much you're killing.

And there are situations where you want to drop the lunch box immediately even if your stim isn't up.

[ionic tusk]

oh, maybe
words have never really mattered for fatshark descriptions though heheho

[fierce marten]

Rule 1 of darktide, never trust Fatshark descriptions

[ionic tusk]

to the kuli guide! (I can't check rn since I'm on mobile)

[ionic tusk]

and it does say ability cooldown

other places do say combat ability sometimes though

[silk sundial]

Dang misread

[silk sundial]

Trying out scriers gaze recon lasgun headshot quelling build, very different

[silk sundial]

Heavy force sword wrecks

[flint moss]

slightly sluggish crowd mulcher

[silk sundial]

Haven’t mastered the moonlight great sword slash yet though

[silk sundial]

I’m guessing you want to aim for head height to kill a wave

[flint moss]

that helps, but not that much on a full charge

beefy enemies will survive it either way

[mortal crystal]

It's more a "I want all chaff to be gone" button than something to break a horde of carapace

[marsh gyro]

Charging it all the way more than doubles the range

[flint moss]

if you really want you can bless it to give soulflame on special, but it will still not kill carapace

[fierce marten]

Pain cause psyker doesnt have like a staff that kills Crushers easy on par with say Plasma Gun

Besides brain burst but thats still slow

Voidstrike my not beloved

[opaque crown]

i figured the lightning staff was

but it wasnt

[ionic tusk]

they have voidblast which, while not super fast, is super safe and doesn't really care how many crushers there are

put on the brittleness blessing, get brain burst's kinetic flayer modifier, and it can do work

[flint moss]

regular force sword with the right build can be devastating but crushers show up in packs

[silk sundial]

Psyker definitely doesn’t have great crusher solutions

[cyan depot]

Lightning staff is ok

If built for it headpop can also be ok

[silk sundial]

Ogryn can wreck them and scum has sone tricks

And I’ve heard plasma and bolsters are both solid into them

[ionic tusk]

they were the original home of the dueling sword and it's still great on them (esp. on a staff build where you can use it for speed, crushers, bosses, and nothing else)

I do think voidblast + dueling sword are probably the two best anti crusher weapons in the game for safety and speed respectively
tho flamer starts scaling like wild in terms of group clear speed if there's a ton of them

[silk sundial]

Dueling sword is anti carapace?

[ionic tusk]

you do need to put uncanny on dueling sword now
before you could get away with not having it

[ionic tusk]

it has access to a +120% rending blessing and takes advantage of it very well

take mark IV (four), uncanny strike, and then spam heavy attacks into heads

[silk sundial]

Jeez, thought it was a to horde/elite

[silk sundial]

Why so?

[ionic tusk]

it was explicitly nerfed for being too good at carapace, but the 120% rending basically erases the nerf

tho it still has slightly less finesse mult than it used to iirc

[ionic tusk]

you don't need to bother with the parry (I don't) but it will probably go faster if you do (?)

[fierce marten]

Still only takes a few heavy stabs to kill a crusher

And if you mistime a dodge the parry works on crusher overheads

[ionic tusk]

if you take melee talents it will probably come about to 1-3 heavy headshots per crusher once warmed up

but if you don't it'll still work well

[clear ridge]

jesus christ

[ionic tusk]

there's a reason it got nerfed even after the community threw a tantrum hearing about it getting nerfed

I haven't really built it for that on psyker tbh since I usually use staves and just pull it out for bosses and mutants

but it should shred with disrupt destiny/scrier's gaze

[sonic elbow]

dueling sword was like the leading stick in spokes of darktide balance

I hope the game will eventually recover from its Throw More Shit syndrome

still very fun mind you but lost the special sauce

[ionic tusk]

I think all classes need to get the zealot treatment of their best stuff getting nerfed to go with the buffs
'cause what we had was mostly everything that wasn't meta getting buffed which has lead to peculiarities like veteran's best builds being the same skeleton but with +5 more meta talents on top

tho zealot then got some of their not-best stuff nerfed also...

[ionic tusk]

tho this isn't just new talents, it's also pathing improvements granting more nodes overall and reducing tax picking the best talents
to go back to the dueling sword, now veteran can take the +3 bleed on hit talent without paying much tax

so the cost of making dueling sword a serviceable hordeclear weapon for them is just 1 talent

[shrewd kite]

i think this is the inevitable path for every live service game honestly

they are fundamentally in an arms race against themselves

[mortal crystal]

tbh part of it is just plain old power creep.

They don't want to nerf stuff because nerf stuff tends to end...poorly

which means they have to buff

which means we're killing formerly very difficult content easier than we should

which means they need to figure out a solution

And the quickest solution is "throw more shit at them"

Like, it took them forever to get plasma gunners out the door to counter gold toughness

and then they immediately had to nerf them

[shrewd kite]

https://youtu.be/LKh1or0UFzM?si=CSz-2gUZcy7HxlL3 i didn't catch that the anarchist is a straight up cannibal btw

that feels a little past the pale even for the rejects lol

[cyan depot]

Lots of people are cannibals in warhams

[clear ridge]

everyone be eating corpse-starch

[cyan depot]

Most space marines, most people who eat corpse starch, plenty of ritual stuff

[clear ridge]

or at least every peasant

[silk sundial]

as someone who just started playing what does this mean?

[flint moss]

crusher waves

[cyan depot]

Basically adding more and more enemies to the high end of the difficulty in order to counterbalance how strong the players are

[silk sundial]

fair, honestly I don't like the sort of 'warframe' feel of some of the higher difficulties where it feels like everyone just has to clear out as much stuff as quickly as possible instead of working as a team

and players are really bad at understanding that their special favorite toys being nerfed can be important for maintaining the difficulty and gameplay style that the devs want

[fierce marten]

Not as bad as warframe but it is a lot of throw the hardest enemies at you
Basically walkers get replaced with those armored dreg bruises, tons of scab berserkers and maulers, crushers, and a lot of modifiers that are buff enemies and nerf PCs

And many monstrosities and specialists

[brave otter]

Yeah for me a lot of these online PvE games are only fun on the middle diffs
Because the Experience Of Playing is just fundamentally different at the hardest levels

[spiral badger]

I think darktide mostly does a pretty good job

The real fuckover levels are higher havoc which is entirely optional and requires you to explicitly sign up for a fucker

Which allows the standard difficulties to maintain a sort of more normal level of fuck you

You're never going to see multiboss ping pong in standard auric

[fierce marten]

Yea that's very much dark tide, cause in terms of your character's capabilities you reach end game real quick as a level 30 character with 400+ power weapons and curios just a couple percentages away from max you've got like the almost the same stat abilities as a end game player. Especially compared to most other PvE games

It is basically entirely the player at that point

Compared to say a super pro Warframe player on a new account with 50 hours just is going to perform much much worse just because they don't got the equipment and character stat stuff to handle it

Darktide veteran could jump on a 40 hour account with 16% toughness curios, 400 power weapons, and level 30 character and make it to end game like havoc 30+ fine

[sonic elbow]

ime deep rock never developed this problem and I wonder what the difference is

my first guess is that deep rock doesn't stick you in a corridor where you either push through or die, and there's a large variety of on-tap CC

[ionic tusk]

there's a lot of cc in darktide also

it's just more optional

[sonic elbow]

yeah, but it competes meaningfully with more damage

[ionic tusk]

imo no, not really

[sonic elbow]

and you gotta clear that elite clown car before the next one arrives

[ionic tusk]

the damage buffs from the alternatives do not significantly compete imo

and some of the cc options also have damage buffs like chorus and break the line
or are damaging abilities themselves like shredders

[sonic elbow]

I should make it clear that my issue is less with difficulty and more with game feel

it just feels increasingly Whatever the more shit gets thrown at you

the tight feeling of combat is replaced with finding the most optimal way to flail your stick wildly to pop elites

because if you can't do it absent mindedly you can't keep up with the spawns

[ionic tusk]

I guess I like doing it absent mindedly, like a flow state?

[sonic elbow]

it's hard to put into words but at some point it turns from "worry not my comrades I will take him on" to chipping away at the crusher biomass

none of them matter individually

there's only their big combined HP bar

they lose all of their presence when they turn into a hyperdense deathball

[ionic tusk]

yeag but the bosses become the new minibosses

[fierce marten]

One shot boss build is a sign theyre not bosses anymore

[ionic tusk]

does that even still work in havoc? I've mostly seen 60% hp getting chunked at once

like, still great, just 2-3 shot instead of 1shot

[fierce marten]

No its not a one shot in havoc to most monsters but its definitely a lot easier to do a follow up compared to pre changed zealot

Its kind of the issue HD2 had, no single enemy became threatening at one point when you could kill a factory strider with 3 grenade then they added worms and a new giant bot tank as true proper bosses that can survive more than a few minutes.

Different game but the lifespan of enemies in darktide is often measured in seconds, rarely does even a boss live longer than a minute

[ionic tusk]

I guess I don't consider that an issue

I do think there are a ton of unhealthy results of the power creep but the only problem I've had with 'more stuff' is performance issues

[fierce marten]

Its not necessarily an issue but its definitely power creep

[spiral badger]

Its still possible to one shot in havoc but you have to be 100% optimized for it

Full stealth backstab martyr zealot with low hp

[fierce marten]

And sort of now recently a balance issue as like havoc 40 pushes the technical limits of what the game can throw at you with the enemy density and they just cant add anymore to existing enemies to challenge the PCs anymore so if you wanted to challenge them more you need to do something else like new enemy, enemy buffs, PC debuffs, etc

[silk sundial]

each special getting a new toy in high difficulties would be neat

like trapper being able to place a shock mineor mutant getting a command grab that holds them down dog style

[shrewd kite]

no significant loot chase? But even darktide's loot chase is pretty shallow (for the better)

[shrewd kite]

the boss oneshot builds do have tradeoffs at least, assuming you mean thunder hammer / knife zealot

[haughty ember]

theres a new giant bot tank?

[fierce marten]

They teased what looked like a hd1 enemy

[haughty ember]

ah

[tough compass]

On one hand, I get not liking ever-more-stuff as the solution to player power creep. On the other hand, I definitely hate enemies becoming bullet sponges as a difficulty increaser. In general more, personally

[shrewd kite]

my problem with more-stuff-forever is that it pushes the players (and, implicitly, the devs) towards bigger AoE abilities as the solution to everything. the chem nade is definitely a victim of this imo

[waxen patio]

from the Rogue Trader game I'm in, feels tangentially relevant

[sonic elbow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/620576156613345310/1455661158676824269/image-20.png?ex=69558999&is=69543819&hm=a74536c22637a825167cc3014b6d58430549a3dc05c2d741b811c5c86ebfef2c&

[cyan depot]

Think you may have missed haha

[fierce marten]

We got to stop the minefield summoner man

[slender shell]

the minefield range really needs to be nerfed

[cyan depot]

I think it’s fine in a game with no friendly fire like Darktide

[fierce marten]

Issue is the twins are not friendly to us

Rejects trigger the mines

And theyre stink mines

[silk sundial]

So what’s with the dialogue that ||one of the twins is alive||

[fierce marten]

Yea sword wife does

We just didn't kill her apparently, they just lived the assassination attempt

[silk sundial]

Do we know what was so important about the ritual in the final level?

[fierce marten]

It was to ressurect Karnak senior

[silk sundial]

Oh so both are back? Do we know what ‘three will meet’ means yet?

[fierce marten]

No rodin is still dead we stopped it

Currently only Rinda was ressurected and we have 0 details on how besides it was a same nurgle ritualist that we haven't seen, only heard

[silk sundial]

Why where the cult so fixated in comparison to wolfer? You’d think getting his seconds back woukd be good for him

[marsh gyro]

Wolfer has a special helmet and that makes you 40k nobility

[ionic tusk]

idk I absolutely loathed drg's progression cycle

[ionic tusk]

imo this already kind of happened for a different reason tho even before the player power creep with infinite cleave weapons (flame staff, flamer, voidblast staff, shredders)
the hitmass enemy increases in havoc made a lot of hordeclear not viable since it would penetrate less enemies and there were also more enemies

this has ironically been somewhat corrected by cleave creep, arbites can get over +100% cleave, zealot has a +50% cleave node, and scum has two +50% cleave nodes
before arbites I think it was just psyker with the +100% cleave node (I don't know the ogyrn tree that well)

[marsh gyro]

And the +100 cleave psyker node is a newer thing overall

[tough compass]

Tis prophecy! But I think Wolfer is a bit more grounded and maybe a bit skeptical of said rituals?

That or maybe he didn't really like them lol

[spiral badger]

the cult is elevating them as like, avatars and prophets

wolfer still just thinks of them as his LTs

[sonic elbow]

perchance

[silk sundial]

Was is killing them part of the plan or something unexpected?

[fierce marten]

They're back as championsof nurgle not as moe 6 captains

Rinda starts shouting stuff in whatever nurgle cultists says after ressurection

[silk sundial]

I haven’t met her at all since resurrection

[sonic elbow]

Rinda surviving makes sense because whenever I run that mission with me gang we just point at Rodin like GET HIS ASS and swamp him like chimps

being annoying with plasma guns and bombs is our schtick, this town's not big enough

if other teams are like us he has been canonically stomped into the ground beyond what nurgle can piece together

[silk sundial]

I think one of the ogryns has dialogue suggesting they did just that

[fierce marten]

Rinda didn't survive per say she was killed by us but ressurected by a nurgle cultist ritualist

And we stopped Rodin's in dark communion (?)

[tough compass]

I like to think they keep trying to resurrect him and the rejects keep stopping it

[fierce marten]

The ritualist that brought back Rinda in trials mentions to Rinda that yes we lost that ritual to bring Rodin back to his body but Rodin isn't lost

Whatever that means? No clue

Rinda was reasonably peeved that the ritual was foiled and she like lost lost her brother was the context

[silk sundial]

Where do we learn this stuff?

[tough compass]

I hope they mean "he's not lost so long as he is in our hearts". Because that would be very funny coming from a chaos cultist

[silk sundial]

Might come back possessing something

[fierce marten]

A lot of it was either event lines you can only now find on YouTube or in Mortis Trials which you can basically only find on YouTube.

Technically Morrow in Psykh replays lines you've unlocked but it's random which plays

[tough compass]

Does no one do Mortis Trails?

[fierce marten]

"and by that I split Rodin's heart in half and gave us each a heart while I brought you back, I cloned more hearts and put one near your spleen too in case you feel sentimental."

[cyan depot]

Never touched em

[tough compass]

lmao

[fierce marten]

Definitely not as much as auric but enough to find a game

You will run into the same players

[cyan depot]

They’re multiplayer?

I thought it was some kind of single player roguelike stuff haha

[fierce marten]

If I play at like 3am cst I might not even find another person in match making

Between like 6am and 1am I can find a full team in Mortis Trials via match making right away

[tough compass]

They sort of kind of like VT2's chaos wastes right?

So multiplayer roguelike lol

[fierce marten]

Sort of

It's 12 waves and you get an archetype to start off with that's sort of like an extra class and get random perks each wave from that archetype and at waves 3, 6, 9 you pick a major perk from 3.

Waves 3, 6, 9 also have side objectives and will not end until you do them

Whereas the others are like just kill until it runs out

I play it often at times but imo it's very half baked

[shrewd kite]

Remind me, did people also dislike chaos wastes? I recall hearing some chatter about it but that was around the same time as beastmen and I know those were pretty controversial for a while

[sonic elbow]

chaos wastes themselves had a very rocky journey too

like actually unbeatable bosses due to some modifiers not being mutually exclusive

[silk sundial]

What modifers were those?

[sonic elbow]

I don't remember, it's been a while

[silk sundial]

Fair enough

[sonic elbow]

I think the splitting one was involved

illusionist or what was it

as of the last time I played wastes were good fun though 👍

[silk sundial]

My personal dark horse for a future dlc character woukd be an Outland beastmaster

[sonic elbow]

I hope we get something chaos wastey as a mortis expansion because it being all confined to a small map gets stale quickly

you could say it's more, cod zombies esque that way?

but the maps don't really have anything interesting going on

usually you just stand around where you spawned in because every position is almost equally bad so why bother

I don't mind the mode but all of its appeal is in seeing how stupid your build can get rather than the gameplay

[silk sundial]

What was chaos wastes?

[sonic elbow]

a "campaign" stringing together levels, with variable layouts, you vote on the path to take with associated modifiers

you pick up extra perks from character trees or chaos wastes exclusive ones, there's events and optional challenges

[silk sundial]

So a rogite modern

[sonic elbow]

ye

[silk sundial]

Rogue like

[sonic elbow]

oh and weapon pickups too

[slender shell]

Chaos wastes is gonna be the second hive city with genestealers, trust

[silk sundial]

Would love a gsc faction to change things up

[sonic elbow]

it was neato because you were trying to outbullshit the modifiers with your own broken combos but it had a lot more meat to that than trials

[silk sundial]

Navigator and Corsair are the two that would be neat to me but make no sense lorewise

[silk sundial]

What dark horse classes woukd you guys like to see, or the ones that would be cool to play but that wouldn’t happen

[fierce marten]

I'd want assassinorum

[slender shell]

Darkhorse candidates are kill teams like navy breachers or like midlevel cold trader thugs for xenos weapons . Kroot and Votaan seem like equally likely as admech honestly

[fierce marten]

Votann was my megacope

[slender shell]

Votaan are human sized in their suits damnit!

[fierce marten]

1 because it would be funny but also it wouldnt be hard to justify as Votann would just need one ship and we could be vat clone kin to justify one ship pumping out Reject numbers of units

[fierce marten]

Yea min height human option is like same height as normal Votann

Being wide isn't an issue as maps are already designed for Ogyrn and they're not wider than Ogyrn

[silk sundial]

I’d say death cult are more likely but I did say darkhorses
Making dc asns mini assasonorum with a melee/sniper/toxin tree could be neat

[slender shell]

Real darkhorse is one single homunculus just with different bodies

[silk sundial]

Votann and kroot are common mercenaries and an inquisitor as skilled as Grendel/rannick could probably make a claim to get away with using them to supplement their forces
‘I’m killing two birds with one stone, we’ll deal with the survivors later’

[fierce marten]

Mutant mercenary class but they're oddly skinny, tall, long ears, and weirdly fast and agile

[silk sundial]

Corsairs could have access to drukhari, craftworlds and harlequins arsenals and cosmetics too which could be neat

[fierce marten]

Cryptic leak so it's probably Tech Marines to match Space Marines 2 or Necron Cryptek /s

[silk sundial]

Af mech or skitarri are the most likely

Probably revealed at festival of skulls in the spring

[ionic tusk]

issues it has:

• enemy variety is reduced (especially on earlier waves), greatly decreasing difficulty (though it was much worse before the update)
• the last few waves are the only real waves when you have a full team, the first 6 or so are just a waste of time- and even then rng determines the mix of captains, twins, monstrosities, and lethal demonhosts (which vary wildly in actual kill power) - this, like the last point, is much better than it used to be if you only played at mortis launch
• enemies scale in health which feels bad if you don't get damage perks (which is entirely possible or even likely with some of the archetypes)
• you have to kill every single enemy after each wave so a lot of time is wasted killing singular lesser stalker shooters outside of the map (the no man's land also has a similar event now but with lenience so maybe that'll get backported)
• you barely get to pick any buffs, and it's way too swingy. a lot of them are repurposed talents, some of which are the un-buffed versions of old talents while others are better than some of the best talents in the game
• included in this are ludicrous grenade regen talents which make ogyrn the best class (though hive scum might be similar), like "map clear without doing anything while you lag everyone out" levels of bad
• a bunch of minor pain points like having to fight through inflated hp values without any buffs if you join late until a wave finishes and you catch up

[spiral badger]

also because it's bad and undercooked nobody plays it, meaning your team is likely understaffed and also shit

i've lost a number when goofing off getting penances/testing stupid ideas because people just did not understand they had to do the objectives or stuff keeps spawning

[ionic tusk]

I think the first impression of it (before the update) probably ruined it's chances for most players
you'd have a wave of a single specialist type that couldn't do anything because it didn't have any other enemies to combo with except like 6 poxwalkers
and then the last wave would be a singular captain (pathetic, legitimately less intensity than a normal captain fight due to less backup and you having buffs) or a demonhost (deadly)

[spiral badger]

it's basically only worth playing right after more lore gets dropped

because people are actually playingi t

[drowsy tusk]

The entire uprising campaign in the tabletop game necrromunda most of the campaign has hunger mechanics where if you can’t feed all your fighters hungry fighters will potentially run that and devour anyone who gets injured Friend or foe

[fierce marten]

Even then unless you record it it's all based by memory

[spiral badger]

no you can go to the psykanium

and there are characters hiding behind the pillarrs who will recite the bits you ahve unlocked

[fierce marten]

But it's random

If you have a specific character or hell a specific line you gotta spam Morrow

[spiral badger]

no each character has their own stand, so you can at least follow each thread

morrow for morrow lines, brahms for brahms lines, etc

[fierce marten]

Does it, I didnt realize

[spiral badger]

but getting to the specific one you want does take a minute

[silk sundial]

I don't think I know about mortis trials

[soft summit]

Psykers

[haughty ember]

oh thats a good comic

[fierce marten]

The context of it is kind of wild for a meme status, lions of baghdad being inspired by a true story of a city being bombed by the US and zoo animals escaping into the city

[frank igloo]

Yeah

[drowsy tusk]

<@&1042950387478560878> 2026 tide

[marsh gyro]

Barktide

[bronze gull]

anyone have a nice build for the combat shotgun?

[sonic elbow]

which class?

[bronze gull]

Veteran, but if you've got reccs for Psyker or Zealot I'll gladly hear 'em

just have a pump shotgun itch atm

[heavy geyser]

If you got a crit build you can try the Blurn gun. Accatran mark, Scattershot + Flechette blessings. The special shell has infinite cleave so it can max Scattershot crit stacks and make followup fire shells also apply bleed stacks on crit.

One crit fire + bleed shell can kill a lot of horde.

[wraith grove]

Man, I am really wondering what’ll be after tech adept

Because I’m really struggling to think of other classes besides like, a sister of battle

[cyan depot]

Navy breacher, sanctioned mutant, Crusader (maybe more weapon pack territory haha), different psyker, etc(?)

[wraith grove]

Admittedly, and this is just me, I’m not big on a navy breacher class because they kinda just function the same as guard lol

[cyan depot]

How so?

[wraith grove]

Just that they’re both the professional soldiers of the imperium, and the unique gear that differentiates the breachers are all stuff we already have access to as veterans

[clear ridge]

i would love another psyker, yeah

[wraith grove]

Shotguns and axes

The only thing veteran is missing is a weapon that comes with a shield

And they can do a good navy breacher cosplay

Although yah a mutant class would be cool

[clear ridge]

that's my take on Sisters of Battle lol

what does an SOB have and do and act like that a female zealot isn't 99% of the way to already?

[cyan depot]

The explosive skulls are also pretty noticeable

[wraith grove]

That’s fair but the sisters have aura

[cyan depot]

Would be a neat ability or blitz

[wraith grove]

Oh yah that would be neat as an ability

[clear ridge]

other than "be like 5x more powerful than every other class"

they have a boltgun

they have heavy chainswords

[wraith grove]

Ehh we’re already eating beasts of Nurgle for breakfast

So long as we don’t get a space marine the power levels are already out of wack

[clear ridge]

they scream about judgment and have an Emprah Majik holy book power

[clear ridge]

that's what i mean, though, like

how is an SOB different from a fem zealot other than "i want them to add a zero to all of the numbers and remove the male option"

(which, i'm gonna be honest, i think like maybe 90% of zealots i see are fem)

(so it's mostly just the numbers)

i'm just not sure what's missing

[slender shell]

kroot or votaan are definitely in the top 5 contenders

[clear ridge]

which might just be a lack of vision, i suppose

[wraith grove]

I guess we could get a proper introduction to melta weapons with them

That and new classes of flamer weapons

[clear ridge]

oh right zealots also have a flamer

forgot about that one

[wraith grove]

Unfortunately I think Fatshark are never adding a short character again

Not after Bardin was such a pain to work with in vermintide 1 and 2

[clear ridge]

kroot would be a hilarious class option

that i uh

[wraith grove]

Xeno mercenaries would be so cool but idk if they can be justified

[clear ridge]

think is comically unrealistic

yeah

but it would be rad!

[wraith grove]

Inquisitors can do what they want but this warband seems to be on the puritan end of inquisitors

[slender shell]

votaan aren't actually short in their armor

[wraith grove]

They aren’t?

[cyan depot]

They’re not super short period yeah

[wraith grove]

Huh

[clear ridge]

nah they got bigass power armor

[wraith grove]

Maybe then

[clear ridge]

think they'd be closer to an ogryn than bardin

[cyan depot]

They’re pretty close to human height and should probably be called broads not squats

Roughly comparable to just minimizing character height in the customizer I think

[clear ridge]

don't they have some really tall models too?

[slender shell]

steeljacks?

[clear ridge]

oh, that might be what i'm thinking of

yeah oops

[cyan depot]

Thunderkyn are also pretty tall

https://www.thegamestore.com/cdn/shop/files/Warhammer-40k-LEAGUES-OF-VOTANN-Brokhyr-Thunderkyn-Painted-4.jpg?v=1723737645&width=1445

[slender shell]

just want the axes then the mortar halberd

[wraith grove]

I just want more polearms in general

[clear ridge]

yeah...

[wraith grove]

glaives and spears are criminally absent in this game

[clear ridge]

there isn't a single polearm in the game, is there?

[wraith grove]

I don’t think so no

Actually

There’s the Ogryn pickaxe

[clear ridge]

and i think the thunder hammer's the only bigass weapon that isn't a sword

[wraith grove]

If you count that

[cyan depot]

Taser knucklesguy would be a neat melee option

[wraith grove]

I want power knuckles for Ogryn so bad

[cyan depot]

The pickaxes are pretty big

[clear ridge]

they're ogryn-scale, so i wasn't thinking about them, but fair enough

in any case, i do want like

more unique melee weapons that aren't just swords again

[wraith grove]

Getting some explosive spears for veterans would be sick

[clear ridge]

all of the good cleave options are swords

and i'd love to see any kind of variety to that

[wraith grove]

Honestly 40K has barely any polearms in general it’s kinda weird

When fantasy has plenty

There’s also hardly anyone who uses a melee weapon that doesn’t also use a pistol

[marsh gyro]

It's tough to get polearms through space doors

[clear ridge]

(and some unique psyker melees that aren't swords, since they've got the force swords/greatswords and their unique dueling sword moves)

[wraith grove]

I would love for psyker to get a force glaive

[clear ridge]

i wish that i'd never noticed and started to get so hung up on this

[cyan depot]

There’s a pretty simple and boring answer for this

Polearms suck to put on models

[wraith grove]

Oh

[cyan depot]

They break easily, and posing is a pain in the ass

But you can’t avoid it for early modern models

[clear ridge]

because it always makes me sad now, and i wish i could just enjoy the fact that 90% of fantasy/sci-fi melees are swords

[wraith grove]

What’s up with fantasy not having that problem then though?

[cyan depot]

And can cover up the problems better with rank and flank posing

[wraith grove]

There’s a lot of spear and halberd models, even in the old ranges

[cyan depot]

See above haha

[wraith grove]

Ohhh, shit I missed that

So it’s just because fantasy models were all connected at the hip in rectangle formation?

[cyan depot]

You can see in AoS which uses skirmish basing that long weapons are also fairly rare outside of the "choked up on the middle of a spear" trick

[wraith grove]

The what trick?

[cyan depot]

Stuff like this - makes the spear really a sword with a long handle in terms of modeling

[clear ridge]

ahh

[wraith grove]

Ah

[cyan depot]

And from a tactile perspective it's way easier to maneuver single models near base to base if they don't have long horizontal protrusions

So you can see how the spear guys are all holding them vertically and choked up on it

[wraith grove]

Shit yah I never noticed

[cyan depot]

And how the spearshafts are hella thick

Since 40k was basically kludged together out of whatever sci-fi ranges GW was making and their own original stuff they just... never had to deal with how shitty polearms are to put on models and now it's part of the design language of the game

Some random examples of the exceptions for spears and the sort of common stuff for em - vertical grips and holding them halfway and such

[cyan depot]

(I'll also note as a sort of counterexample - AoS has a lot more spears and also broadly more "advanced" models since it's GW's modeling team flexing without decades of design language holding them back)

[wraith grove]

That does make sense tbh

A lot of AOS armies really does feel like an excuse for the GW modelers to flex a bit

[cyan depot]

Yeah they're crazy

[wraith grove]

The Idoneth deepkin really feel like this to me

The water effects on those models are

Crazy

[cyan depot]

This is another super flex model imo

(If you're like me and are like "but it's just a guy in armor" look closer)

[wraith grove]

Yah, armor without anyone wearing it

And visibly to

[sonic elbow]

actually rayman is inside

[cyan depot]

I also really like Teclis' model

[wraith grove]

AOS models love doing the “model floating in air by connecting two unrelated parts of different models” thing

[cyan depot]

Yeah it kicks ass

It's the AoS version of tactical rocks

[wraith grove]

Yah lol

The only 40K models I can think of that does that is like, Celestine and Mortarion

Who use the scrolls and cape to fly respectively

[cyan depot]

It's gotten more common with jump pack models but yeah

It's pretty rare

[wraith grove]

This model’s water cape feels like the biggest brag

[cyan depot]

Wait no that was the old model the new one is tacrocking lol

[cyan depot]

Yeah that's nuts

[wraith grove]

Tactical rocks are awesome lol

[cyan depot]

#addastoraththegrimtodarktidefornoreason

[wraith grove]

Lol

Bunch of normal people and then a space marine named character for no reason

[sonic elbow]

if they wanted to really dig for appropriate power level characters that are niche enough GW won't be breathing down their necks

hive world nomad

[wraith grove]

Give us a bike

[cyan depot]

I wouldn't mind more Atoman stuff

Maybe the admech stuff can be Atoma-specific

[wraith grove]

Moebian steel being so weird and special almost certainly means the admech must have some big influence on the planet

[quiet escarp]

Honestly Zealot sops up a lot of possible classes in that it's also a Deathcult Assassin, Crusader, SoB, and Ministorum Fanatic all wrapped into one. It's already gotten explicit Death Cult and Crusader cosmetics.

Honestly the more I think about it the more a Squat (Necromunda Ironhead style rather than Votann) makes the most sense to me after an AdMech class

Though that may run into the issue of not having necessary weapon overlap

Though they could do something closer to the Squat Mercs from Necromunda instead

[cyan depot]

Could use the normal weapon pool and bitch the whole time about using this junk

[quiet escarp]

Now that I am turning it over in my head though I can imagine them specifically avoiding squats if only so they don't have to do Bardin In Space

[quiet escarp]

Also a good point though

[wraith grove]

Man, even if we won’t get ratlings, I still want a sniper rifle weapon

It’s another big niche that’s weirdly absent

At least a long las rifle

[quiet escarp]

I feel like there must be some kind of internal design document that says "No Sniper Rifles" as an article of core game design

[cyan depot]

It kinda makes sense since a lot of the fighting is in close so something like a space AWP might be hard to use a lot of the time

But there's unused but present optics and the heavy headhunter with one is very snipery haha

[quiet escarp]

Like the Handguns in Vermintide work as slow firing single target deleters but that game also doesn't have ranged enemies as a core part of its enemy roster outside of specials

I feel like a sniper would probably just feel bad to use

[wraith grove]

Yah ranged weapon balance is just, super different in vermintide

[quiet escarp]

I feel like the revolvers, the vigilant autoguns (which seem structurally bad besides just poorly balanced) and the plasma gun already kind of eat the sniper rifles design space

[quiet escarp]

The choice to not include optics customization being seemingly purely because it makes selling cosmetics harder is eternally frustrating

[clear ridge]

i thought that it was because GW was stonewalling them for some reason or another?

[marsh gyro]

Vigilant autoguns have it rough because they don't bust armor good and that's a tough sell in the era of crushertide

[quiet escarp]

I think they've never really come out and said it, have they? It just seems to me like less of an issue only because we know they got all the way done making the assets and even partly implementing them mechanically

[quiet escarp]

Incidentally, taking Hive Scum up to damnation for the first time last night and boy howdy those armored hordes feel like even more of a brick wall than usual

Though firing a rocket launcher and seeing a dozen maulers in the kill feed is very cathartic

[clear ridge]

you should try the dual uzis

those rip through maulers

[quiet escarp]

Yeah I have come to the conclusion that they are nuts, it's a shame because I was really excited about the dual stub pistols but they just don't have the juice by comparison

The bone saw though feels amazing to use

Especially when you switch to the brittleness proc and you can see the speed at which a monstrosity's health bar decreases accelerate with each hit

I haven't had the chance to try it (unlocking cosmetics first) but the chemist side of the Scum tree seems kind of cracked in general

[silk sundial]

I’d put voidsmen and breathers together

Sob could maybe get combo weapons as tgeir unique thing and have a ranged focus to zealots melee

[shrewd kite]

that must break SO easily

i know zealot has the stealth tree and a few assassin cosmetics, but i do think you could make a sufficiently differentiated death cult assassin if you wanted imo

[cyan depot]

Yeah I could see them being a more gun-oriented zealot flavored class

[silk sundial]

I was in the zealot=assasin camp then played devils advocate for it and yeah, sniper/poison/melee could be a unique tree set up

Unfortunately the Reddit thread I did that on was deleted

[shrewd kite]

idk how differentiated DCAs are in the lore but you could make trees based on the officion assassinorum schools as a close-enough thing

so, yeah, sniper, pure-stealth, melee shitkicker

[cyan depot]

I do struggle to think of DCA stuff which isn't very Zealoty

This is a deep cut but I think a Miraculist class could be neat

I'm not sure how to mechanize it though

[shrewd kite]

tbf i think the game is hitting that point where there's not a huge amount of design space left for new classes generally unless they come up with some drastically new systems

[silk sundial]

Chirugeon and Outland beastmaster could also be neat

[shrewd kite]

and not just gimmicks on top of the existing class structure like what scum gets

[silk sundial]

You will get more overlap the more you add, but one overlapping tree is t too bad imho

[cyan depot]

In KT they've got sever very strong single use psychic powers and a don't die move

Though I'm not sure how that'd translate

I like the vibe though

[silk sundial]

What is a miraculist?

[cyan depot]

One of the specialists for the Sanctifiers kill team (which is very Zealot flavored)

[slender shell]

Maybe rogue trader retinue member just for a mishmash of different skills/abilities without much connecting throughline? Once they run through human options

just a fuck it kitchen sink option

[cyan depot]

Starstriders is a funny team

[silk sundial]

I’d pair breachersband voidsmen together

[cyan depot]

It's like 4 extremely strong leader models, some normal guys, a credible heavy weapon, and a dog

[slender shell]

100% agree killteam inspirations are probably the place to look

[cyan depot]

A lot of em are already in too

[slender shell]

and then a ship

[silk sundial]

Have them be the rts military force

[cyan depot]

Breachers are basically Navy Voidsmen special forces so that wouldn't be crazy

[quiet escarp]

A Rogue Trader with respawning nameless gun/melee mooks?

Like Necro Sienna

[slender shell]

don't think rogue trader because they're way too rare but retinue is possible

[quiet escarp]

Actually, having just said that I realize that might be a possible part of the AdMech

With spawnable combat servitors

[slender shell]

totally thought summoning mooks would've been the hive ganger class but I guess not

[cyan depot]

I would do that with an Underseer and combat servitors personally yeah

[quiet escarp]

Just the thought of nameless goons being weaker and more disposable than the Arbites dog made me laugh

But yeah it totally makes more sense for them to be actual robots or servitors

[tough compass]

For a DCA, I wonder how viable it is to have weird movement tricks. Also, having used one in Rogue Trader, they should totally get an ability to block ranged attacks

[quiet escarp]

An actual teleport of some kind could be a pretty strong ability

[clear ridge]

psyker whose ablity options are hadouken, teleport, and fuck-up-what-you-were-trying-and-summon-a-daemon

[shrewd kite]

i think that's the first time i've seen a non-sword chainsaw in 40k

anyway given how important aggro is i don't think darktide would work with a straight-up summoner class, but i could see a bait grenade or something working

alternately, a stationary turret

[silk sundial]

beastmaster with a bait grenade was something I thought would be neat

and then maybe an inquisitorial stormtrooper with some high tech stuff like the turret

[quiet escarp]

One of the classic Ministorum priest models had one, and I think they may actually go back farther than that, but I believe it's always priests that have them for some reason

[silk sundial]

I'd love a powersaw for scum and zealot

[tough compass]

Clearly it's that priests aren't allowed to be armed so they have to make due with repurposed civilian gear

[wraith grove]

I’m pretty sure armed ministorum priests get around the “no man shall bare arms” thing by instead just being, unrelated crusaders, just, going in the same direction as the main fighting force

[silk sundial]

What things cause stun? Because I do t know if stub immunity is worth it

[mortal crystal]

Getting your toughness broken stuns

[silk sundial]

Oh I can see how that’s useful

https://darktide.gameslantern.com/builds/a0be0e1a-40e6-4a33-9631-99bae99263ca/chem-toxin-tac-axe
how does this build look?

Trying out swapping dependecy for adrenaline

[fierce marten]

I don't think that will stop FS from dropping a class

Everyone said ganger was just vet but crime it happened anyways

[frank igloo]

We're not getting sisters of battle anyway

Its too much an escalation

[fierce marten]

Arbite's was quite a big escalation over rejects

[frank igloo]

Not really

[fierce marten]

How so

[frank igloo]

They dont have power armor or bolters as regular weapons

[cyan depot]

I think Arbites get a reputation for being more elite than they really are from the association with judge dredd

[fierce marten]

Cause cyber mastiff and people with almost power armor and is real big leap

[frank igloo]

Its not

Cyber mastiff is just a cyborg dog

[cyan depot]

Rules-wise they're basically stormtroopers/ig vets with carapace and weird weapons

[frank igloo]

And arbites dont have power armor

[fierce marten]

I say almost cause it's not powered lime enhancing motors but it can involve electronics

Like sensors suites and such

[cyan depot]

As one point of contact for "eliteness" their kill team is a 12 model KT which is about the same as the imperial guard vets one

[clear ridge]

i mean, so can the cosmetic augmetics the dweebs already have

[frank igloo]

Its still a far cry from sisters power armor

[fierce marten]

I'd say that's a step up from rejects

[frank igloo]

Its not really

[cyan depot]

(Vetguard is 10-14 in a complicated way but most people run it as 12ish)

[frank igloo]

Given ogryns and psykers

[cyan depot]

It's a step up from level 1 rejects

Who are literally whos in like prison garb

[fierce marten]

Yea we don't even get like Carapace armor

We were less fitted than the guard

[cyan depot]

But there's a very long tradition of literally whos with extreme skill in 40k which the rejects grow into

[fierce marten]

But also like we have boltguns

[brave otter]

And relic two handed power swords

[fierce marten]

What separates us from sister's is basically the armor

[marsh gyro]

Rejects can kill a nurgle blessed elite with one good rock, they're pretty on fire

[clear ridge]

right, which is yet another point against adding sisters

[brave otter]

Anyway I'm 100% on the train that Sister doesn't really make sense because female zealot is literally just an SoB in all but name

[fierce marten]

And even then we can survive stuff that would kill an unamed character in power amror

[cyan depot]

Oh that reminds me, gland warrior could be another class

[clear ridge]

if it's just going to be a zealot but with +300 hp or whatever else they'd do to represent better armor

[fierce marten]

Again I don't think uniqueess is a deciding factor

[clear ridge]

i just think like

i'm against literally every aspect of the SoB idea

[fierce marten]

Maybe it's an opinion people have but it's not one that FS cares about

We had vet with criminal background and it was a "gun" class and they added hive scum

[clear ridge]

there's no mechanically unique identity, it's a massive step up in power, and it's a response to "there is a gender-locked class, this is a problem" (which i can sympathize and agree with as a problem)

[frank igloo]

Okay what does sisters of battle have that zealot doesnt

[clear ridge]

but the solution proposed is "make the problem worse"

"while also adding more problems"

[cyan depot]

I think as long as the gameplay texture is different enough and it's something iconic that'd be enough

[frank igloo]

Hive scum they could at least go into "drugs and close range guns"

[marsh gyro]

I was gonna say battle heels but I gotta look into the zealot skins

[fierce marten]

Vet had close range guns

[frank igloo]

Not really

[cyan depot]

melta guns come to mind

[fierce marten]

Aesthetics changes quite a lot for games

[frank igloo]

Thats a weapon, not class tree play style

[clear ridge]

they certainly can make unique guns and skills for everyone including an SOB, but...the zealot could just get a melta

[fierce marten]

Zealot talent for close range guns was given to veteran

[cyan depot]

so is the plasma

[frank igloo]

Which is that again

[fierce marten]

Drugs is just temp buffs

[cyan depot]

I think some of the more extreme weapons are balanced out by only being on some options

[fierce marten]

It's not a mechanically unique really, just different flavor and aesthetics

[cyan depot]

I suspect part of why the long-prophesied melta hasn't made it is because it's real hard to balance

[fierce marten]

If FS wanted SoB they'd make it feel different with visuals

That's just how games are

[clear ridge]

yeah, i just want to push back against it because i think it's a bad idea on every front

[frank igloo]

It is, given it replaces picking up stims

[fierce marten]

That's a small change and they could do a small change for SoB

[cyan depot]

At least in the TT the SoB hat is being "Imperium Eldar" with a lot of fixed dice and statistical control, which could manifest pretty well into darktide's various luck based systems

[frank igloo]

Not really a small change

[fierce marten]

Faith meter now it's different from zealot or something it's not difficult to do

[cyan depot]

Albeit the "fixed gambling class" would be funny presentation wise

[fierce marten]

MOBAs are prime examples of the same mechanics feeling different with just visual changes or slight variations to it

[frank igloo]

Theres already convos about sisters of battle and how theyre not going to atoma anyway

[fierce marten]

I don't think mechanics would be an issue for SoB

[cyan depot]

I think it's less like, just visuals and more that things don't need to be all that unique to feel pretty unique

[frank igloo]

Or how itd be an escalation

[cyan depot]

All the darktide classes are just mixed use dodgey gunsworders anyway

[fierce marten]

There was also 0 dialog about arbites

They just dropped in

[frank igloo]

Yeah which is a point in their favor

Because they didnt need to remove voice lines

[clear ridge]

"no news" is definitely better than "they are explicitly not coming" news, yeah

[cyan depot]

Now for a real escalation they probably won't do - space marine Neophyte would be a hell of a class

[fierce marten]

Ratlings

[quiet escarp]

The Gland Warrior art ended up appearing as some of the cosmetics for the Hive Scum, actually

[frank igloo]

I could understand sisters of battle novitiates

[clear ridge]

i really, really do not want to ever see a space marine in darktide ngl

[quiet escarp]

Shame we didn't get the polearm though

[frank igloo]

Since they already dont have power armor and use autoguns

[cyan depot]

Oh huh, I kinda see it yeah

[fierce marten]

I also don't think power armor is that big of a deal compared to what rejects have done

[clear ridge]

i want that glaive :(

[cyan depot]

I'd love to get that fucked up crossbow lol

[quiet escarp]

The cybernetic skull cap is the most explicitly straight from the model bit

[fierce marten]

Astartes Power armor is paper to chaos spawn depending on writer

[frank igloo]

I dont think "lets make ogryn and arbites but even tougher to kill" is good

[fierce marten]

And Rejects eat those for breakfast

[cyan depot]

Yeah I just don't look at the old Gland Warrior stuff that often

[quiet escarp]

But I think the inquisitorial crotch flag and the shoulder armor also have some influence

[fierce marten]

They don't have to do that though

[cyan depot]

There's not a ton of need to actually make the armor reflect much greater toughness tbf

[fierce marten]

The game balance already has dissonance with 40k lore

[frank igloo]

Yeah so these sisters get the shitty power armor lol

[shrewd kite]

a lot of what arbies seem to do in the fiction is manage the tithes of entire planets, which is a fairly major task that needs some power

[cyan depot]

The players are already obscenely tough

[shrewd kite]

a 40k game where the players weren't obscenely tough would be unplayable honestly

[cyan depot]

Yeah before anything else they're armed tax collectors

[clear ridge]

yeah but they do that as massive death balls of mooks

[quiet escarp]

Gland Warriors are a funny thing in general because originally they were just the background of a single sample character who was broadly just meant to represent a hardened veteran, and the recent mini is just a generic "Deathworld Veteran"

[clear ridge]

they're just like

[fierce marten]

A combat knife should not be able to 2 shot a Daemon but here we are

[clear ridge]

fanatically loyal libertarian mooks

[frank igloo]

Yeah so the sisters have to be tougher, the same way arbites with having actual armor are tougher on average

[fierce marten]

Not really

[cyan depot]

Arbitrators are also pretty infamously tough outside of the armor too tbf, it's a long running identity back to Inquisitor

[fierce marten]

Should and what Fatshark would do is distinct

[cyan depot]

(Which is more or less their mechanical origin)

[frank igloo]

Yeah and fatshark is still ultimately beholden to GW

Who have done shit like micromanage allowed cosmetics

[fierce marten]

I think GW cares much less about game mechanics

Otherwise relic blades and power swords and chainswords would just be better than like a combat knife

[frank igloo]

They care more about how things perceive the brand and if people perceive the sisters of battle as less tough than a hive scum theyll definitely care about that

[cyan depot]

Hmm, actually the most accurate list we've got is the old dark heresy career list, which means they're probably adding... Adept next

[fierce marten]

I don't think so really

[cyan depot]

(This would be so funny)

[clear ridge]

what were adepts in DH?

[fierce marten]

There were times when zealot was tankier than Ogyrn

[shrewd kite]

adept here being 'inquisitorial adept' right

[clear ridge]

oh my god

[cyan depot]

Adepts were the uhhhh

Sole noncombat (mostly) class

You were the team nerd

[clear ridge]

incredible

[fierce marten]

They did not care about Ogyrn the mutant canonically physically tougher than humans so be less tanky

[frank igloo]

Ogryns dont sell, sisters do (even if theyre way less popular than marines)

[cyan depot]

You knew things, maybe too much, and largely just sprayed suppressing fire in combat since it cost a billion XP to learn to aim

[frank igloo]

Pure support class lmao

[cyan depot]

UNLESS you took their doctor branch then you got inexplicably really good at chain weapons and were sort of a glass cannon

[frank igloo]

You play top down RTS

Youre mission control

[cyan depot]

But a support/melee adept class which buffs allies could actually be neat

[fierce marten]

Space Marines 2 says lol lmao balance is when whatever we want

[clear ridge]

i assume zealot is a mashup of assassin and cleric?

[cyan depot]

I'm most joking since Adept was the red headed stepchild of the DH class list

[frank igloo]

4 adepts just makes the mission office social deduction game

[shrewd kite]

they could just rip off the dark heresy party member and make them a specialist chirurgeon or something

[fierce marten]

Rogue Trader balance says you can be kill and 1v1 a chaos marine easily as a human

[clear ridge]

messy office romance with the karnak twins

[cyan depot]

Yeah, cleric was actually mostly about social skills and being rich but was a generalist, and assassin was like, snipers and knives and stealth

[frank igloo]

Yeah thats happened in the lore

[shrewd kite]

rogue trader balance is pretty hilarious, you can map multiple CSMs in a round without too much trouble

[fierce marten]

Argenta as a sister of battle would not have more firepower potential with a light bolter than a more popular selling space marine with their astartes bolters by this logic

GW does not micro game balance luckily despite everything else they do micro

[cyan depot]

Shes's kinda funny since she's clearly very inspired by the Rejuvenat Adept

(which is cool)

[silk sundial]

I’d love dueling spear as a weapon

[cyan depot]

Also the strongest medic in KT with 2 legs

[silk sundial]

Sob are likely solely due to how popular they are

[fierce marten]

FS so far does seem to be on like a, we go with the less popular option approach to darktide

Arbite's was definitely not a popular army

[cyan depot]

Yeah there's been a lot of obscure stuff

They've never really been an army

[clear ridge]

i would love for them to just keep putting out hipster bullshit, yeah

[cyan depot]

But they're probably one of the most popular unplayable people?

[cyan depot]

Same

Ooh, if we're doing really obscure stuff there's uhhh

[fierce marten]

They intentionally made a statement against space marines the most popular faction and even in lore they stated all loyalist chapters ignore Atoma because the death guard found on Atoma were report dead

[shrewd kite]

that's kinda my reasoning for no SoB more than anything honestly

[cyan depot]

Afriel Strain!

[silk sundial]

What would you do for adept though?
They’re historically non combat or pure support