would be really funny
#Undertale and Deltarune
rain lotus
themoss is green because kris is The One
unrelated to gaster being green (which is true) but thematically important
minor merlin
low surge
Real
lusty cypress
White ribbon
Pink ribbon
Blue ribbon
All of these can be found in the game
timber widget
Susie's apparently the one supposed to wear ribbons, which is interesting then
lusty cypress
Sheapparently wore ribbons as a kid, but not anymore
Meanwhile, ralsei really likes the ribbons
rain lotus
themoss is green because kris is The One
i think if the fun gang were rescued by Zion we'd have a problem because i think they'd all say fuck this let me eat all the fake steakslop i want
steakroute
still somehow beats the shit out of agent smith
agent smith's bullet patterns would suck
velvet olive
y'know
there IS a legitimate point here that it's weird the game keeps showing ralsei with the hat on in the UI in the minigames etc
timber widget
True
ripe harbor
Sheapparently wore ribbons as a kid, but not anymore
(I read it partially as her still kinda enjoying part of the ribbon-wearing, but being embarrassed about it)
its cringe to wear ribbons. those are for babies, shes TOUGH she's HARD. She BREAKS SHIT.
but maybe she doesn't like it at all and just thinks its embarrassing. Something about not wanting to be seen wearing them at least.
either way I'm making Mantle Susie pick up the ribbon when I can, whenever I can. Its funny.
ripe harbor
there IS a legitimate point here that it's weird the game keeps showing ralsei w...
this is layers & layers deep into speculation, but I have seen people tie this to Susie specifically asking him to lower his hat, and using it as a point for her 'breaking the prophecy' or w/e
though imo if she's breaking the flow of things, it'd be the way a spanner in the works would. I think I buy this hat-read more if its packaged with the assumption she's not the 2nd hero, and doesn't belong with the party.
could also just be that Ralsei's opinion on his face is #irrelevant to fate & so it shadows his face because His Personhood Does Not Matter
more of an thematic motif than something with a specific cause. Like how Spamton's past selves never have their eyes showing.
ripe harbor
though imo *if* she's breaking the flow of things, it'd be the way a spanner in ...
(sort of interested in her pink-ish & yellow-ish color scheme, and pretty consistent talk about trash / garbage / lost&founds if Susie is a sort of aberration to the prophecy. Nothing concrete enough that I'd make any claims, but I'd read all those bits differently if she's in the same space as the other unwanted-junk-data)
velvet olive
tricky tony when he makes a game where literally everything or literally nothing could mean something:
velvet olive
there are so many threads you could or could not follow
ripe harbor
its easy to be cryptic. probably a lot harder to be suspiciously cryptic but also make sense without that
velvet olive
yeah that's true
ripe harbor
its like uhhhhhh
Chapter 1
having Lancer post all those signs about children getting lost in the forest
100% makes sense on its own. Doesn't need anything else to work in its context
but you get the latter info and its like
.....
so yeah Susie talking a lot about being thrown away, or not belonging, or being 'King of the Trash Pile', or only ever playing Dragon Blazers when she took a copy from the lost and found (which wasn't hers š¤Æ),
and being 'the_n3w3st_g1rl_g1rl', or making a mixed up 2nd sanctuary (filled with rings & ringing)- both with this strange repetition going on,
and then also tangentially having a bit of yellow-magenta, in places like her room? Its a little
nothing I think needs to be anything. But shes sorta-kinda-maybe in the same space as the other pink & yellow stuff which is sorta-kinda-maybe about junk & repetition & things-that-don't-belong
definitely could say this in a better or more convincing way, but I got migrainer ( š )
ripe harbor
tricky tony when he makes a game where literally everything or literally nothing...
one that got me this weekend was watching a remix of one of the tenna board songs, and seeing the way the tsundere cactus is described
of course. Because Rose-Thorns are real well known for having 'love'
I didn't even think twice about this line while playing, if I ever saw it. Yeah, it does describe the cactus. But also...
devious
& when any line can just start making Vague Mystery References, you gotta be watching for every line. & then you end up like me (crazy)
got me saying things like "Of course, lover's peak is a place where the 'connection' between two people summons a rainbow bridge- they cross the 'Ocean' because their bond creates 'color' through the waves! š¤ āļø"
velvet olive
got me saying things like "Of course, lover's peak is a place where the 'connect...
gonna be so fr we have no idea what you're implying that just sounds like what happens
ripe harbor
Something about color created through bonds guiding through darkness or the roaring, probably
Lover's Peak making a rainbow bridge here rhyming with the later time in the story that you bring color to the dark through close connections in some classic JRPG moment
not a strong claim, just something that made me .
velvet olive
inchresting
timber widget
Quantum Toby who both has and hasn't thought of that until he talks about it in the Deltarune 10th anniversary livestream:
ripe harbor
implying he won't be swallowed by his creation before the 10th
strange cloud
Toby Suicide Theory:
low surge
One of my favorite shitpost theories
low surge
He end of chapter 5 will be a black screen with the annoying dog suddenly turning green and then it cuts to a picture of Toby Foxās grave
timber widget
Poisoned ā¤“ļø
low surge
This has definitely been posted and discussed here Iām guessing, but I just finished it myself. Iām kind of 50/50 on it, it makes some compelling points but I donāt think I can fully jump on board with this
strange cloud
Iām not super big on any theory that makes it so the knight isnāt actually Dess but just Dess controlled by someone else
I think itās kinda important for her and Krisās character that sheās doing this herself
Not just a penumbra Gaster puppet
manic parrot
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8B300CS2AcQ
PoDessed
low surge
Iām not super big on any theory that makes it so the knight isnāt actually Dess ...
Agreed agreed
Thereās some parts I find interesting to it and hadnāt considered before, but Iām not sold on it as a whole
I do question anything that proposes people know about Gaster and his involvement in the story, and stuff like Kris being soulless by default
ripe harbor
I think itās kinda important for her and Krisās character that sheās doing this ...
yeah its the pathos of it
& something that more broadly makes the Darkner antags (like King or Tenna) more sympathetic too. They're all reacting to a sorta-similar fear.
ripe harbor
I do question anything that proposes people know about Gaster and his involvemen...
its tough because its not entirely clear what Gaster's involvement actually is, it seems sorta related to the Soul, and it definitely appears like Kris or Carol or whoever know much more about the Soul then you'd expect
like, did they know in advance it would be this week the soul would show up? Did they call it here, and would either case actually mean they'd have to know about Gaster at all?
seems the knight starting to make fountains & the soul showing up are directly tied in some way. Kind of impossible to tell which one is the cause and which ones the response though.
('Soul' in this case at least being you / your connection / whatever is making Kris act different, if you think they had the literal soul already)
ripe harbor
tricky tony when he makes a game where literally everything or literally nothing...
still gets me
its not even the sprite data from Jingle Cats. The cats are edited, so the white cats are instead yellow, with pink highlights.
posted about five months before the release of Deltarune Chapter 2
rain lotus
This post will be a nightmare for one jingle cats fan ever
And that fan's name? Noelle, probably
Fifteen post screed about how this is terrible for archival
ripe harbor
call that a Trouble Jingle
Trouble for the Jingle. cat community. hold on I can make it work.
low surge
Back when the ost leaked and people were speculating based on names alone 
ripe harbor
Back when the ost leaked and people were speculating based on names alone <:cryl...
pushing buddies as a secret boss theme got me though
that'd be the track if these guys got a shadow crystal
low surge
How they came to that conclusion is beyond me
Some of these they were cooking with Iāll admit
ripe harbor
some are like diagonally cooking
this one might be a 'task failed successfully'
I think at least part of the climbing bits in Chapter 4 are sort of thematically about ascending 'towards the heavens'. The pillars that you climb are literally the thing that connects the (unseen, mentioned) waves 'deep below' and the windows that let the light in above.
stack chairs they become godly... idk. There might be something to it?
make enough copies, lay them on top of each other -> they climb Ever Higher -> they breach 'upwards'
low surge
I can see it
Vaguely reminds me of a song someone made for their idea of a boss fight against the vessel, where it was like thousands of discarded vessels all falling over each other
A bunch of copies trying to escape and be real
ripe harbor
you also get a sort of sideways copying right before the ripple fight
iirc the backstage area where you normally do the Hammer of Justice fight is just repeated 4-5 times, until it fades into darkness
yeah noticeably much, much larger
and all the dark zone sound mazes were also quite a bit larger in the dark than when the lights came on. Wouldn't be surprised if the stacking was sort of the same idea, vertically.
rooms become worlds, and then rooms in those worlds get bigger still as the light runs out. It all expands.
things stack on top of each other, but there isn't a bottom, they stack without limit. They just keep piling Ever Higherā¢.
Also maybe something about data stacks / stack overflow as a computer term? Opening a Dark Fountain in a Dark World as a recursion that creates a cascading failure in 'Memory' which bricks the whole place?
rain lotus
Back when the ost leaked and people were speculating based on names alone <:cryl...
i'd be so fucked because i read "paradise, paradise" in jevil's voice
jevilbaited again
lusty cypress
restive comet
I just imagine Jevil laying out in a beach chair while everything goes to hell in the backround
strange cloud
Back when the ost leaked and people were speculating based on names alone <:cryl...
I love how people were so attache to evil Tenna and good Mike that the first assumption when itās shown theyāre working together is that Mike is Tennaās slave
low surge
Samtongs said Tenna bad tho
ripe harbor
starwalker has been more relevant
I can offer you Jevil relevance at the cost of 'you gotta take the copy-pill & accept that the Chaos, Chaos thing is related to that and also Chaos in the cosmological sense'
2nd Sanc. rooms repeat, Jevil repeats words. Its basically relevance 
(<- coping)
ripe harbor
I love how people were so attache to evil Tenna and good Mike that the first ass...
South of the Border -> woody was also pretty good
strange cloud
Itās so funny
People were genuinely
So fucking confident about woody theory
And like, I kinda get it
The way people laid it all out it really did seem possible
Likely, even
low surge
Anything starts to make sense if you elaborate on it enough tbh
Go down the rabbit hole enough
lusty cypress
Human logic is very bendable
lusty cypress
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8WHKVwAw00
Anyway, couldn't do a very attentive watch
But the idea here is the Roots are a future area echoing in the game, inhabited by Friend
ripe harbor
So fucking confident about woody theory
I was always a hater for it but I recognize that you can't be smug when a theory like that is wrong
there but for the grace of god go I
"Ralsei is Makima times Dahmer" stuff you could absolutely clown on though
ripe harbor
Anyway, couldn't do a very attentive watch
But the idea here is the Roots are a ...
watched it a while back, didn't agree with some of the angles in it, but this part seems likely
its the way that Jevil & Spamton both involve going into basements to get the ominous secret foreshadowing, in a town with a big suspicious underground (plot relevant) shelter
and then chapter 3 even hits you you with ominous roots basement into spooky shelter. In minecraft.
lusty cypress
Yeah
Also roots/underhround are important thematically
The roiling darkness beneath
The basements where reality is thin
ripe harbor
or things buried
lost to time, not thought about
I think the backstage / 'Dump' area in 3 is similar, even if its not literally underground
its behind the scenes
places where junk goes, or places that you could never see & it would be like nothing even changed at all
though 'Roots' is sorta an odd name for that
could be a recycling element, or maybe just leaning into this as the root of the plot / some major thing in setting (like the bunker as the source of the Dark?)
lusty cypress
Or the roots of what dwells above
The foundation
The unconscious influencing the counscious
ripe harbor
tricky tony when he makes a game where literally everything or literally nothing...
and I guess it should also be said that the stealth sections, and the Lost Girl / Mike(?) related sneaking track that (would've) played during them kind of have a root symbol?
ripe harbor
Or the roots of what dwells above
The foundation
foundation is a good word for it, yeah.
Its the word I was using before roots got a couple more mentions & became A Thing
ripe harbor
and I guess it should also be said that the stealth sections, and the Lost Girl ...
I dont even believe this one, tbh, its just an angle to keep a light pin on
strange cloud
Anything starts to make sense if you elaborate on it enough tbh
You put enough vaguely related screenshots together and anything seems probable
ripe harbor
The unconscious influencing the counscious
when talking about foundations, could also be a root superuser
strange cloud
I was always a hater for it but I recognize that you can't be smug when a theory...
also nah I will always be smug when a theory I donāt like is proven wrong
ripe harbor
real. I mean I definitely had enough late night post Elden Ring told-you-so's so I might just be a hypocrite.
strange cloud
Lol
ripe harbor
maybe its because I feel like a lot of the people really into Woody theory were probably a bit younger
I cant be beefing with high schoolers bruh
strange cloud
But really there is like, the slightest satisfaction in being right and other people being wrong
strange cloud
I cant be beefing with high schoolers bruh
Shit thatās true
strange cloud
But really there is like, the slightest satisfaction in being right and other pe...
Also I wonāt lie, Iām particularly excited for chapter 5 just so people stop arguing who the knight is
ripe harbor
I slip in the very performative 'If its Dess' most times I end up talking about them. ||but it definitely is Dess||.
strange cloud
Yah thatās probably the way to handle it
sour mesa
I cant be beefing with high schoolers bruh
occupational hazard of deltarune fandom
ripe harbor
honestly I mind people being convinced in their (weird, very lost in the sauce) headcanons waaaay less than someone being rude about relatively grounded takes to me.
You say "Its definitely true that Susie is half human" I go "well I don't really agree but w/e"
you say "Uh, how you could you ever believe [X consistent character trait]? its clearly more like [complete misread]. Are you dumb?"
its beatdown time
strange cloud
Yah thatāa real as fuck
ripe harbor
thats the stuff I'll be smug about
strange cloud
People get so angry about their completely wrong headcanons
I occasionally look at Deltarune tumblr, I donāt use it often but I wanna see what theyāre doing over there, and I still remember a post saying everyone is else in the fandom is stupid and wasting their time with Kris characterization because they they think weāre possessing them
Like they denied not only diegetic player but Kris being possessed at all
And said that when itās finally revealed Kris isnāt possessed the rest of the fandom will realize how dumb and irony poisoned they were being
Because they completely misread Krisās character
inland hare
how do they explain what kris gets up to after literally ripping us out of their chest
ripe harbor
people just say things so definitively!
strange cloud
how do they explain what kris gets up to after literally ripping us out of their...
Kris has DID
ripe harbor
how do they explain what kris gets up to after literally ripping us out of their...
if this is Krisociation then- ya
inland hare
what
strange cloud
The soul is just a physical manifestation of one of their alters
strange cloud
if this is Krisociation then- ya
Dude every krissociation poster is like this itās crazy
ripe harbor
I got a complicated opinion on that as a read
strange cloud
Theyāre so fucking rude
inland hare
methinks that's more convoluted than the alternative
ripe harbor
I don't agree with it, but they do commit to the angle, and ask questions that more people should be asking about...
ripe harbor
Theyāre so fucking rude
this part sucks though yeah
strange cloud
I don't agree with it, but they *do* commit to the angle, and ask questions that...
Yah the only positive is that they are digging deep into Krisās character, unfortunately they do this at the cost of every other character, the metanarrative, the normal narrative and often Kris themself
ripe harbor
I just find poking at Kris and the Soul beyond 'the player is evil & the game is a game (end of meta analysis)' refreshing
strange cloud
Yah Krisās relation to us is more complicated then that, unfortunately abandoning Kris being possessed leads to so much backfill issues besides just the abandonment of the metanarrative
Krissociation butchers Noelleās character too imo
ripe harbor
honestly, the part about the metanarrative theories that get me is that they usually don't go deep enough to integrate the meta and the main plot. I want to hear someones takes on why Gaster set up Save Files, if they think that, or how Deltarune is talking about mirror-worlds in multiple contexts.
strange cloud
Completing changing the dynamic she has with Kris as one of the few people to notice something is off, to her being in denial Kris has changed since the were kids
Morphing into a read of Noelle as internally transphobic
Not able to recognize that Kris changed because they transitioned
strange cloud
honestly, the part about the metanarrative theories that get me is that they usu...
Trueā¦.
We gotta get more meta
ripe harbor
Not able to recognize that Kris changed because they transitioned
wew
strange cloud
Also Iāve said this with other friends, a lot of Gaster denialism comes from thinking because the fun gang arenāt emotionally invested in him he wonāt be relevant
Rather then doing the obvious analysis, thinking how heāll be emotionally relevant because heās obviously narratively relevant
ripe harbor
We gotta get more meta
I mean even things like "Gaster coded the game". Its like ok, lets talk about that š. Are we putting the Dark forward as a sort of 'code level' to reality? If you are saying Gaster literally, in universe can use Twitter, does the deepest Dark link together alternate worlds?
I want to see the expansions on it!
strange cloud
Gaster has access to Twitter and he can hurt you through it
ripe harbor
Rather then doing the obvious analysis, thinking how heāll be emotionally releva...
and even then, signs point to the 'connection' thing imo
strange cloud
Honestly I think people forget about the chapter 4 end dialogue a lot
Because like, to me itās intention is as a reveal
ripe harbor
Gaster desires connection like everyone and their mother (literally!) in this game lmao
strange cloud
All of chapter 4 we learn about Deltarune
The prophecy itself
And then, finally at the end
We have Gaster claiming ownership of it
Deltarune is his, his creation
strange cloud
Yah, heās both possessive of it and wants to see it come to fruition
Two really important traits for the idea of prophecy
And like, now that the fun gang are coming into conflict with that prophecy
I think they would be invested in the creator of it
Gaster is, maybe not intentionally cruel but is still cruel
The prophecy is a cruel thing
ripe harbor
though I wouldn't put it past the story to put focus on 'his' instead of Deltarune, there
strange cloud
An inevitable tragedy that must come to fruition for the world to be saved
ripe harbor
especially with Gerson's deal about rewriting stories
strange cloud
though I wouldn't put it past the story to put focus on '*his*' instead of Delta...
Yah
ripe harbor
did Gaster create a rewrite? maybe!
ripe harbor
An inevitable tragedy that must come to fruition for the world to be saved
I've wondered if it would've been crueler to Ralsei if he went blindly towards fate, instead of knowing
both ways kinda suck
strange cloud
Thatās true, but honestly Iām doubtful the world even needed saving before Deltarune existed
His first cruelty mightāve been the creation of it in the first place
After all the knight was foretold in it as well
ripe harbor
its why I'm really interested in the story putting forward a specific cause (or at least action a character took) for the threat
strange cloud
Thereās no reason for it to exist if not for Deltarune
strange cloud
its why I'm *really* interested in the story putting forward a specific cause (o...
Same
I need to know what came first
The threat or the prophecy
ripe harbor
I don't think its Gaster's ideal outcome- an experiment 'went wrong'
strange cloud
Thatās really like, the crossroads for Gasterās characterization
ripe harbor
but it is hard to tell if he's running damage control, or lost the part of himself that would care
strange cloud
Honestly I think it might be the latter
The main emotion we see from Gaster is excitement
Heās excited to show us his work
For us to reach the end
To meet these characters and this world
I think whatever is happening, gaster is pleased with it
ripe harbor
The main emotion we see from Gaster is *excitement*
true, even during the Knight fight
strange cloud
Yah
Heās excited to connect with us and witness our power
heās trying to seduce us
ripe harbor
is there ANY skeleton in this game not trying to pull?!?
rain lotus
actually he said "dirty brother, killer." killer is the fourth s keleton
ripe harbor
Heās excited to show us his work
& maybe you could do an emotional core to this where Gaster is putting people into roles versus them self-defining
in a way similar to, idk, Carol Holiday? maybe?
being the author of other people to have control over your little world, versus them the type of person they want to be
strange cloud
actually he said "dirty brother, killer." killer is the fourth s keleton
Aaahh fuuuuuuck
strange cloud
in a way similar to, idk, Carol Holiday? maybe?
Carol is the secret third Gaster parallel itās true
ripe harbor
non-DR friend of mine likes to ragebait me by just going "Well I think the spooky cat is Gaster. What now? Prove me wrong."
strange cloud
That fuck ass cat is actual coal discussions
People are including them in everything
Why is friend the bus driver?
ripe harbor
lol
inland hare
Maybe the Shining is actually the Shining movie
ripe harbor
biggest relief when it gets a clear core point is that it'' brush away all the maybe-perhaps-could-be stuff its involved in
inland hare
And we will be getting chased by an axe murderer
ripe harbor
Maybe the Shining is actually the Shining movie
Diagetic Kubrick theory?!?
inspired
he's the one speaking when you get the * ME prompt
ripe harbor
Carol is the secret third Gaster parallel itās true
I do like the idea that one of the reasons the Roaring Knight is like that is because Dess' mom didn't 'really' know her, just this idea of who her daughter was.
that she couldn't be brought back because they don't have the right idea about who she was, literally chasing shadows instead.
maybe Noelle could do it
but I think if thats the way the plot goes you could make that a gaster parallel pretty easy
Gaster seeing everyone, but not having a connection to any of them. Not caring about them as people, just roles.
The player doing the inverse (hopefully! Not on the weird route!) and so actually being able to banish the dark with their bonds
strange cloud
Yaaah
Also speaking of
I do think itās very telling Gaster just, doesnāt seem to care if we do the weird route
Like thatās not the thoughts of someone who like, cares about the characters as people
inland hare
what if weird route is the true end though
lusty cypress
The mechanics of the prophecy are fascinating
How does it exist? Is it dr who rule of seeing the future locked it?
Is it rails on history?
The way breaking the stained glass just creates it again somewhere else
minor merlin
velvet olive
non-DR friend of mine likes to ragebait me by just going "Well I think the spook...
but what if though
sour mesa
They're both green...
ripe harbor
I do think itās very telling Gaster just, doesnāt seem to care if we do the weir...
I'm not sure he can see it, tbh
I think part of the keyfabe about the Weird Route is that DR's devs act like they don't know about it, like its something they got no clue is in the game.
I could see the same thing applying to Gaster
but some of this is just vibes
like the game window in the program survey, during the intro being CONTACT until the voice changes, when it becomes ā ā ā ā ā ā ā ā ā ā ā , or the Shadow Mantle as just gone, with Seam only having a confused "Did someone... take it..?". A (maybe) consistent gap in details, that idk if even Gaster is immune to.
ripe harbor
** **
but what if though
thats why its good ragebait. It could be true-ish. >:(
ripe harbor
How does it exist? Is it dr who rule of seeing the future locked it?
Is it rails...
I think at least part of the way Deltarune is approaching causality is sort of like.... perception shapes reality? Obviously true for the dark worlds, but I think it expands the idea into all types of history, and the light world.
Playing off the idea that if nobody remembers something happening, it basically didn't, and then making that basically literal.
The perceptions end up superseding whatever was there before, reality bends its shape to match. The TV gets broken because you saw Tenna get sliced, or the TV is fixed because you played doctor.
so maybe the Prophecy is sort of like that?
The world bends to match it's shape?
or maybe just a really deeply embedded perception in a setting where everything can be a little malleable
maybe its dug in at the roots, ha
so maybe the Doctor Who thing (idk how that one works) if you look at the prophecy as a huge overriding perception
lusty cypress
In doctor who, crossing your own timeline and remembering it means it is locked as something that happens/happened, and opposing it causes paradox. (This rule and others may be broken a lot)
So if you see the moment of your death, this is how you will die
manic parrot
so doctor who is the anti-ffxiv
rain lotus
"deltarune is the ffxiv of doctor who" i utter, before being crushed with a huge rock
sour mesa
that's right
lusty cypress
Does ffxiv have its time mechanics be much different?
rain barn
we only have three examples to go off of, two of which are time loops that cause themselves, and the other of which has a guy come from an alternate future to successfully change the past to prevent it from ever happening ||and this is known because we're well past the point of divergence||
they, perhaps wisely, do not explain too much what the difference between these is or how it really works other than a character very confidently telling you you can't change the past, and then you change the past
and you have always changed the past
but also ||that alternate timeline somehow still exists, to the surprise of the people who sent the guy into the past and were expecting to just sort of stop existing||
it is possibly because ||said alternate timeline would have prevented one of the other above mentioned loops from being closed||
ripe harbor
In doctor who, crossing your own timeline and remembering it means it is locked ...
I do think in some way the prophecy 'already happened'
or had already never-happened. Or will have never happened, but not yet.
ripe harbor
In doctor who, crossing your own timeline and remembering it means it is locked ...
I think it might almost be a sort of deliberate branch off this style of time travel
in maybe a broader conversation with Homestuck?
Homestuck was very much into its hardline timeloops and rigid time determinism
Deltarune almost pokes at the same ideas from the opposite angle. Messing with a timeline through intentional, sometimes cosmic, ambiguity.
like crossing your own timeline and remembering it might lock it those events. But memory isn't absolute.
What if the world remembered things slightly differently? What if it was more than slightly?
What if it forgot?
If nothing is certain, how do you determine what is true?
rain barn
š¤
character on the right ||comes from the future, so he knows how events play out and plans on sacrificing himself for the Hero to have a happy ending instead of dying||
||also they're fluffy boys hiding their faces||
you could even describe him as a prince from the dark
when deltarune's finished it'll be fun to do a comparative analysis between it and ffxiv since they hit a surprising number of similar notes and chapters 1 and 2 came out on a similar timeframe to shadowbringers and endwalker
what was in the water
darkness, probably
ripe harbor
half of its basically "Light defines things" and half of its probably JRPG the power of friendship
its in the details and presentation that the texture comes out
strange cloud
Iāve said it before but itās crazy how much Kris makes people online talk like evil JRPG parents
āThat ungrateful brat should be thanking me for possessing them! Iām the only reason they even have friends to begin with!ā
sour mesa
hmmmm
low surge
Itās a good thing Deltarune fans will never reproduce
rain lotus
half of its basically "Light defines things" and half of its probably JRPG the p...
i misread as friendslop
wake up from your comfy dark world where you have an active social life kris live in the cottage and eat lightslop
ripe harbor
Kris you only like Susie because sheās cool and fun itās just friendslop kris
fucked up that Noelle says this out loud about herself but replacing Susie with Kris
I get it though. She was just trying to rizz, she doesn't mean it.
low surge
Noelle would use slop, sheās terminally online
lusty cypress
Youtube arranged videos such that it seemed like a video on trans ralsei had "You can't join the enclave" written on it
from fallout
low surge
Youtube arranged videos such that it seemed like a video on trans ralsei had "Yo...
lmao
low surge
Noelle would use slop, sheās terminally online
Kris is also terminally online but they think using internet lingo is cringe
Susie just plays the skateboard game and googles random shit
lusty cypress
A fallout or dark souls dark world could be fun
A gaming focused dark world
ripe harbor
lootbox world...
ripe harbor
And not very modern gaming
oh yeah? then why did it have gacha pulls?
lusty cypress
What happens if you create a drak world while a computer is playing an mmo, hm
rain barn
this is how miqo'tem becomes canon to deltarune
ripe harbor
What happens if you create a drak world while a computer is playing an mmo, hm
imo you would end up here:
||(this is a famous unused dungeon for WoW)||
type of shit Noelle would be doing
ripe harbor
sharp lodge
divine intervention
lusty cypress
Ralsei during chapter 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxduFWbbndE
sour mesa
ripe harbor
https://bsky.app/profile/tsunamicat108.bsky.social/post/3medq73ey422s
they ATE him ā¼ļø
cartoon shark bite
timber widget
she ATE him ā¼ļø
regular Susie bite
low surge
Someone pointed out
Monochrome doesnāt just mean grey, it can be any singular color
And the Sound of Justice, a memory of Susieās memory of the Old Man
Some might say
A copy
@ripe harbor are we cooking?
ripe harbor
<@198496790670999552> are we cooking?
maybe- I'm split because I can't tell if Monochrome in the context of UTDR is supposed to mean just black and white or not lol
ripe harbor
A copy
this part for sure though, the Sound of Justice is def a copy ||actually the Old Man is too, I think. Theres a fun bit where his silhouette is specifically greyscale when you walk past some glass||
ripe harbor
I mean the vessel isnāt even monochrome either, itās got brown in it
yeah, I think it might be monochrome in like the Yume Nikki way
where it mostly means without color
low surge
this part for sure though, the Sound of Justice is def a copy ||actually the Old...
Maybe thatās the colored with care part? Darkners based off of dead people require the maker of the fountain to really know them, right? Whoever created it knew Gerson, and his copy was colored with care. Susie had a deep connection with him, but she didnāt really know him
ripe harbor
I mean I think it is a copy, and the fact you can't see it in the dark makes it monochrome. I'd buy that washed out brown as being without color.
ripe harbor
Maybe thatās the colored with care part? Darkners based off of dead people requi...
I think the song title for when you fight it, 'Ripple', might be pointing in the direction of reading it as a copy tbh
its because you can only see the waves cast by footsteps in the dark, the ripples,
but I think it might also be calling the Sound of Justice a ripple - signal oscillation from a sudden change in input.
Its also known as 'ringing'
So its like Susie's dark world itself was like a big strike that reverberated, and the Sound of Justice was some sort of ripple of that
ripe harbor
Maybe thatās the colored with care part? Darkners based off of dead people requi...
& maybe because like this, yeah, she never knew the original one
she's trying to make a copy, of a copy
(but to Susie, Gerson is a corpse. So she brings back a zombie.)
timber widget
Monochrome doesnāt just mean grey, it can be any singular color
Ugh, what was the line again? Something something "green with freedom"?
ripe harbor
The bells of justice are ringing.... its for you.
The air crackles green with freedom
timber widget
That's the one
ripe harbor
its pretty interesting that the sound of justice also doesnt seem to be based 1-1 on any light world object
unless you want to get morbid and say 'Gerson's literal ashes' lmao
It getting shattered didn't seem to meaningfully break the hammer, or affect OldMan Gerson at all. So like was it just not an item?
ripe harbor
A copy
It also has you play Simon says, where it tells you where it'll attack and you copy the inputs.
Tasque manager does as well, and deals element 6 damage... and it is what Pluey's switch minigame is based around.
Copying the cats, doing call & response?
I dont know
I think you are cooking
low surge
š 
ripe harbor
but I am also copy-crazy so take it with a grain of salt lol. You ask me its all copies
other day in DMs with a friend I was doing a read of ''They'll hear the ring of heaven's call" with the titan(?) image as the titan being a recursion error in the computing sense, like a program that calls itself too many times until you get an 'overflow'
I can make anything about element 6 šāāļø
my right as espangton fan
timber widget
low surge
my right as espangton fan
Ham Prongs ā¤ļø š„¹
https://tenor.com/view/spamton-deltarune-undertale-deltarune-chapter-2-jevil-gif-8171580625664207935
ripe harbor
If you want to really lean into monochrome copies getting colored in, it could honestly apply to the entire dark world, if the darkners are all shadows.
like a shadow of something is a monochrome image of it, a sort of copy without substance
and when darkners turn to stone & stop moving, its that they lose their color
the Sound of Justice was literally a statue in the first dark world!
maybe it got just enough color to become the Sound of Justice, and 'being monochromatic' is like a scale
not enough to be able to talk or anything? š¤
ripe harbor
like a shadow of something *is* a monochrome image of it, a sort of copy without...
(which makes it odd ||that the most notable trait of 
is that its heterochromatic. Its blatantly not-monochrome. I straight up got no idea how to take that in the context of copies and chromacity||.)
ripe harbor
||lowkey I've considered it lmao||
the 'New'. Something... novel?
Not originally present, not a copy so much as something abnormal?
but I just accept it'll be clearer later. I'm not supposed to understand yet, I'll let 'em cook.
mf is literally a chromatic aberration
velvet olive
its not even the sprite data from *Jingle Cats*. The cats are edited, so the whi...
the original cats are white ... monochromatic perhaps....
lusty cypress
low surge
Random thought: Queen as a parallel to Carol. Queen asks Kris to help her find Noelle. Coincidence? I think not
low surge
I like the trend that started like yesterday of āif you finish Deltarune you can go and torture sans with dialogue choices in the geno routeā
Good stuff please make Sans suffer more
rain lotus
you made me invent a guy in my head
guy that's pissed about the toriel sans thing but only because he wants sans to hurt
lusty cypress
By temmie
low surge
guy that's pissed about the toriel sans thing but only because he wants sans to...
Thatās me hi hello
timber widget
Wow, you retroactively created Robin
rain lotus
cyclical nature of the universe
low surge
Wow, you retroactively created Robin
ripe harbor
Random thought: Queen as a parallel to Carol. Queen asks Kris to help her find N...
no but like
but like actually 100% absolutely
^ girl with a good homelife
and no issues
its like when you are mid session and you start getting a little too into the character RP
Idk if shes really talking to Queen there lmao
if she knows it or not
lusty cypress
People online seem to often assume outright breaking the prophecy is a given
Like how the k6bd rejected jadis
People really reject dark prophecies
ripe harbor
(I did like the posts that were like 'why is everything in UTDR a 'theory' thats just character analysis š' too though)
ripe harbor
People online seem to often assume outright breaking the prophecy is a given
Lik...
its a hard pill to swallow & clashes with some other popular narratives
people want to be able to break the prophecy with the power of Determination & Hopes & Dreams
lusty cypress
Even when a prophecy is just an objective prediction of events and choices instead of an imposed "fate" through some sort of mechanism, people still feel like it infringes on free will somehow
lusty cypress
~~Anyone familiar with Universal Mother theory~~
Barely
It's the theory queen represents moms right?
ripe harbor
Even when a prophecy is just an objective prediction of events and choices inste...
Because the idea that there are things you don't control - that you cant control? - about yourself can be a rough one!
lusty cypress
^ girl with a good homelife
Yeah. Carol probably retreated in control upon losing dess and getting involved with the prophecy conspiracy
ripe harbor
People want to be able to choose who they are in this world
I like Spamton. I get it.
Its what its all about
ripe harbor
Even when a prophecy is just an objective prediction of events and choices inste...
I think Deltarune's fate is also being based on people being who they are creating fate
sometimes its not that they have no choice, but that they were never going to choose anything else
thats the fate that really gets you
Kris could leave through the window at the end of Chapter 4. But the phone rings, and then reminds them they promised.
Whatever they do next, its because Kris is the type of person to choose to do that, in that moment, everytime.
Kris always opens a dark fountain in Chapter 3. They are fated to because of who they are (what they care about, what they feel they have to do)
at least thats how I read it
ripe harbor
I think Deltarune's fate is also being based on people being who they are creati...
(Which to me is also why Spamton's quest is about fighting against fate by trying to fundamentally change who he is, or Susie has that bit in chapter 4 about not being able to think she could ever be a hero (and still has doubts))
She took it for granted that that was the only way she could be, so it became her fate. Or something.
That's also why I like chapter 4 making the promise a negative thing, a burden. Making promises is a sort of constraint, even if it was your choice!
low surge
Kris really be out here finding lost girls
low surge
True
Also crazy how actually every dark world (except maybe the sanctuary) is just constantly flash banging Kris with as much trauma as possible
The forest Lancer gets lost in, all the Noelle/Dess parallels, the entirety of TV world
ripe harbor
Dess literally haunting them like a ghost lmao
ripe harbor
Also crazy how actually every dark world (except maybe the sanctuary) is just co...
I'd count sanctuary too because of the prophecy
Kris seems to know the end, thinks its going to happen, and is worried about it
and the sanctuary is just constantly like 'hey remember how you're Doomed?'
lusty cypress
Dark worlds are dreams
So of course they keep repeating significant things from the knight
Plus the prophecy itself might haunt them and cause repeating motifs
restive comet
no but like
Universal Mother Theory?
ripe harbor
Universal Mother Theory?
I mean I don't even know how diagetic its intended to be, idk if its full into that theory where its like "The dreamers in the dark world all add to Queen's personality"
but its definitely a narrative parallel at least
and Queen & Toriel do both end up Juiced
it also adds a fun angle to Berdly & Queen's relationship
but I think she's mostly Carol
I think Carol probably likes it when Kris doesn't do crazy things like: Have Opinions
timber widget
Agreed on all counts
Fun parallels, maybe even intentional, but probably nothing deeper
The chapter is mostly about Noelle anyway
ripe harbor
I still can't believe Kris Triple Trucies was foreshadowing
ripe harbor
exactly!
its so obvious but only in retrospect
and it still just works as a good bit without the foreshadowing!
low surge
I still can't believe Kris Triple Trucies was foreshadowing
Thing is, does that mean the truce between Kris and Carol and Kris and the Knight are one and the same, or are they triple trucies here too?
inland hare
tripe trucies might make sense
rain lotus
Universal Mother Theory?
universale arthbound theory
NO NOO
earthbound mother theory
ripe harbor
Thing is, does that mean the truce between Kris and Carol and Kris and the Knigh...
idk lol
if you draw a hardline 1-1 it makes Berdly = Susie though
which is funny
astral quiver
i didnt know we had one of these
sage needle
lusty cypress
Kirby x deltarune music, spoilers for kirby star allies and deltarune chapter 4
||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmtdWfLQxWw||
ripe harbor
hmm, eyes snagged on the line about Kris' dials and recent contacts getting deleted in their phone.
Pretty commonly assumed Kris did that, but if you assume the caller was one of the more supernatural elements (Knight or otherwise), could be a byproduct of that
like the special egg Noelle got that she couldn't remember the name of, or how the Forgotten Man says that you/Kris have met him many times before, but don't remember.
self-censoring information. Not really evidence, but if the phone's caller does turn out to be something weird that's set-up.
crimson badger
There Is No Shelter Division
my initial tug from that is opening the possibility of Dess being on the other end of the calls, but at the same time it feels like whoever's on the other end needs access to the light world in some capacity
ripe harbor
if you think Dess is the Knight, they do have access in some capacity, even if its not clear
crimson badger
yeah that's the part that's unclear because I feel the way things slot with PhoneDess, is that DessKnight feels closer to her shadow, at least within my brain
ripe harbor
Something about the knight being able to talk feels off, though the phone speaker does speak oddly.
& plays the giygas sfx thats also in ''Another Him''
so I could believe theres some Dark Nonsense going on
crimson badger
the textboxes being all weird isn't us being far away, its all Kris can make out with 100% certainty "oh yeah something about susie and guitar and being there sure sure"
ripe harbor
(Kris Deaf theory....)
crimson badger
speaking of gyigas, this is me counting my eggs before they hatch but the esoteric part of my brain is riding on this until the end
but I semi recently had a dream that deltarune ends on The Roaring being solved through a Gyigas moment, but instead of prayer its music
and like the OG ending was in a dream so even if I know its my brain making a sick remix while flushing toxins out of it, my ape brain sees "tony dremt i dremt must be connection"
ripe harbor
is a lot of sound & melody motifs for the Roaring (<- like the name) and The Legend
pulling a coherent track out of static would fit the aesthetics
crimson badger
yeah, it not being just dream nonsense but making sense within the ideas being presented is what got me hooked
ripe harbor
Who'd be the Giygas, though? Gaster?
crimson badger
Gaster... or Dess
but I am aware that at this point I am putting desscoin in so many different places that I'll be right by volume
rain lotus
giygas in this instance ends up still being giygas
crimson badger
why did chara make porky make gyigas do that
rain lotus
w.d. giyster
ripe harbor
I gotta admit I am biased towards the spooky phone caller for Kris also being the spooky phone caller for Spamton, whoever that is. Its very neat (don't have to juggle multiple mysteries) & adds some symmetry.
what are the odds there are two people who could make dramatically timed phone calls? its unthinkable
or even if its not that, whatever was speaking in the Mantle game. Gives them a more direct connection to Kris.
minor merlin
so GLACEIR is associated with the weird route right
I'm watching someone play it on piano rn and it's kind of interesting that you can play it with just one hand
low surge
Fuuuuuuck
minor merlin
ohhhhh right "Kris loses a hand"
isn't there also something about the uhhh
...
hrm. concerning.
low surge
Oh boy I sure hope Iām not doomed by the narrative today
the doomed by the narrative factory
velvet olive
I like Spamton. I get it.
To make your own deals... to call your own shots...
lusty cypress
Who'd be the Giygas, though? Gaster?
Friend?
lusty cypress
self-censoring information. Not really evidence, but if the phone's caller does ...
Friend
lusty cypress
Ah, finding a theory with a cool name, but the tone of the theorist is too overdramatic
lusty cypress
There are good ideas here but it's exaggerated
Author also made a wacky theory ralsei is a shapeshifter that takes whatever form needed for the prophecy, and looks like asriel because that's a fitting form for the prince of the dark
timber widget
Wait huh, just noticed you can equip the holiday pencil in the light world, freeing up whatever other Kris weapon you had equipped to INFO
lusty cypress
I dreamed susie had a flail and went spinny
ripe harbor
I dreamed Tenna's head was a realistic set of human teeth. Which is probably Digital Circus' fault, in some way.
and I mean realistic. was gross.
ripe harbor
Been looking for theories
uhhhhhhh, hmm
what about like "Darkness as serpentine intended to evoke ancient near-east myths of Great Sea Monsters consigned beneath the sea, which is one of the reasons the power of the Heavens/Light is also closely tied to electricity"
like some Marduk Tiamat stuff
clear frost
uhhhhhhh, hmm
what about like "Darkness as serpentine intended to evoke ancient ...
Wait youāre kinda onto something
ripe harbor
some versions of Yahweh & Leviathan, that whole deal
ripe harbor
Wait youāre kinda onto something
I am tormented by the terrible clarity of my vision.
clear frost
Something worth noting is that the brightest dark world by far is the one with the most electricity (cyber world)
ripe harbor
and Chapter 4's get worse and more unstable as the rain starts
and it gets later in the evening
the light through the windows in Dark Sanctuary fade
I actually sometimes might forget how commonly "Dark-Water motifs = Abyssal pre-creation waters" is as a lens
most people I talk to take it for granted, but idk if the broader fandom does
probably could use a doc
it leads very easily into things like 'Noah's Ark / the Flood', or anything related to the book of revelations that Deltarune could be pulling from. If there's one biblical tie that someone theorizing should know about, imo, its that.
Even more than like "Satan = 666"
clear frost
Something worth noting is that the brightest dark world by far is the one with t...
One could say that TV World is brighter, but thatās also an instance of electricity, as tenna was plugged in again recently
ripe harbor
one of the Shuttah's draws this attention to this directly
"You should thank Tenna for brightening things up around here"
even says things would be all like the couch area (or ??? from chapter 1), dusty & empty, without the light
rain lotus
Something worth noting is that the brightest dark world by far is the one with t...
yeah all my friends are in ther computer
rain lotus
gadster puter
ripe harbor
gadster puter
this is unironically a 'theory' I've been digging at
mostly just slapping computer terms and concepts against the game like a wet fish against a wall
and going
it unfortunately works almost-well enough that I gotta take it seriously, except I don't know computer data structure terminology very well š
rain lotus
i meao n a meta level there's something there because you had to pry undertale apart to find gaster content
ripe harbor
n Unix and related systems based on the C language, a stream is a source or sink of data, usually individual bytes or characters. Streams are an abstraction used when reading or writing files, or communicating over network sockets.```
```In computer science, coinduction is a technique for defining and proving properties of systems of concurrent interacting objects. Coinductively defined data types are known as codata and are typically infinite data structures, such as streams.
As a definition or specification, coinduction describes how an object may be "observed", "broken down" or "destructed" into simpler objects. As a proof technique, it may be used to show that an equation is satisfied by all possible implementations of such a specification. ```
Most recently, like "I dont even know if this is anything, put it in the check later box because idk computing", I put a pin in this in relation to Fountains.yeah, he also speaks like and has visuals very reminiscent of computer software
which is what got me trying to seriously consider this angle
he's labelling things like IMAGE_VESSEL instead of spr_normalguy, guess I gotta look into old computer syntax
womp womp
ripe harbor
```In computer science, a stream is a sequence of potentially unlimited data ele...
is the 'definition of properties of systems of concurrently interacting objects / source of data of individual characters' that got me to put a pin here
that's sort of what a Dark Fountain is, I guess?
a 'pipe' (pin: Tenna's weird crashout referencing Dark Blob Spawn coming from 'pipes'?) of potentially infinite data. Is this anything?
š š
Its a lens that almost works, almost anywhere, but I can't tell if its actually onto something, or if the computing terms & whatever Deltarune is doing with them just choose the same Proper Nouns for the same reason, and its coincidence
like Noelle causing Fatal exceptions with a freeze
Root nodes / root directory would be a deep-level foundation for a data structure or a computer booting up.... but thats because roots are the foundation of a tree, lol
if chapter 5 gets any more computery I might lock it in more definitively. Right now I'm just #noticing
warping reality by bringing the inanimate to life call that object-oriented programming. Ending my call stack with a tail pointer, except its null. It doesn't lead anywhere, it leads Nowhere. Don't reference it.
ripe harbor
https://www.tumblr.com/thesnoringknight/807884828353642496/good-grief-somehow-de...
this is a good one, btw. I like its formatting.
lusty cypress
restive comet
Huh
timber widget
low surge
https://www.tumblr.com/manglestar/806456688213409792/piano-lessons
Loved this, I like stuff where Carol and Dess have at least something of a positive relationship
ripe harbor
https://www.tumblr.com/manglestar/806456688213409792/piano-lessons
š
low surge
I still kind of headcanon that for as much as a rebel as she is, Dess is also a massive mamas girl
ripe harbor
Loved this, I like stuff where Carol and Dess have at least something of a posit...
I like stuff where Carol has a bit of a rebel past too
or really just any mirroring with Dess
makes it nice and more fucked up šāāļø
lusty cypress
I love the idea of carol thinking dess got hurt due to something they shared
And rejecting her past hard from it
low surge
Feels Kris coded
serene loom
low surge
Why wasnāt this in game I need it
low surge
@ripe harbor sudden realization WHY THE FUCK IS SEAM OUTLINED IN GREEN?
serene loom
i think its just a lighting choice, Sweet Cap'n Cakes have a red outline in their shop
manic parrot
contrast
lusty cypress
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzb5TpJFBRU
In this theory, pure darkness becomes titans and titanspawn, or demons
With Friend, Eram and Ralsei being demons
astral quiver
<@198496790670999552> sudden realization WHY THE FUCK IS SEAM OUTLINED IN GREEN?
almost every darkner basically alters the art style for themselves
lusty cypress
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzb5TpJFBRU
In this theory, pure darkness become...
Also proposes that Friend was the only one who led the children to the underground
ripe harbor
<@198496790670999552> sudden realization WHY THE FUCK IS SEAM OUTLINED IN GREEN?
my question is why their shop sorry seap gets two-color pink and yellow outside decor Chapter 2 onwards
them thangs (and the buttons)
low surge
Clue I wish I had the clue emote
ripe harbor
Also proposes that Friend was the only one who led the children to the undergrou...
to the underground, like UT's Underground?
hmm
I'm kinda gut against that but I like the fresh angle, I'll hear them out
lusty cypress
Also, chapter 5 dialogue from toby
https://bsky.app/profile/tobyfox.undertale.com/post/3m6xhbz2olc2i
Confirms that shadow crystals are related to will
amber jolt
Confirms that shadow crystals are related to will
THEY COULD BE MADE OF DETERMINATION
ripe harbor
I'm still kinda š on the idea that its a play on 'will' like 'desire' & 'what is going to happen / fate'
ripe harbor
for this
a 'certain' power, as in 'a power related to What is Certain'
a power that takes uncertainty and makes it definite
it determines
which plays into how Dark Worlds are shaped from formless Dark by 'Determination', too. It's the power of the shape of things.
ripe harbor
https://www.tumblr.com/yldboth/790050214324158464/deltarune-on-the-elements-part...
Having never seen a Star-element enemy, we have no way to know.
Imo, the Knight is probably Star-type
because it doesn't seem to be Dark (takes no increased damage from the Black Knife), but does Dark/Star attacks
and also a lot of those attacks are literal stars
Regular Spamton's attacks aren't Puppet/Cat, for some reason, even tho you can get the mannequin before that fight.
this could be because some characters don't deal damage of the type they are (Most Electric don't deal Holy/Electric) or it could be that Spamton isn't actually Element 6 enough yet.
He does seem to be as much of a 'Puppet', but if Puppet isn't one of the halves, you could look at what he gains in the second fight he doesn't have in the first
(||If it is 'Copy' and not Puppet, he's inhabiting a vessel-body drawn in the image of a specific Lightner. He's copying Mettaton Neo in a way his first fight isn't.||)
So even though the Titan's bullets aren't Dark/Star, lore-wise they're still Dark/Star. Hopefully this isn't controversial. Can it even be controversial? Does anyone other than me care about this stuff?
I cares...
I think thats probably true but keep an open mind for 'The Titan is some weird mixed type like Holy / Dark so the defense isn't as effective'.
I think rain being Dark/Star element is also because of the Dark = Water theme
so 'Dark' attacks get to look and appear like water
the shadow mantle's description plays into that as well
"Shadows slip off like water. Greatly protects against Dark and Star attacks."
so it makes sense to me that the attacks it protects against would also be water-like. Sometimes?
good post though
the best part of the Element system is the Lore Implications šāāļø
maybe the only thing I'd add is that the protection the Dealmakers add against Element 6 is a 40% reduction, aka it only deals 60% as much as it normally does
and the protection of the shadow mantle cuts Dark/Star to a third, it reduces the damage by 66%
which both seem to play into the number 6 stuff
low surge
ripe harbor
this could be big
ripe harbor
uhhhhhhh, hmm
what about like "Darkness as serpentine intended to evoke ancient ...
actually, doubling down on the biblical imagery & dipping into Kris-Hand stuff for the first time,
Kris hand imagery relating to the Revelations mark of the beast? š¤
[The second beast] also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
This will require wisdom to understand: Let be interpreted the number of the wild beast, for it is the number of the sons of Adam ā 666.```I don't really know where to go with that. I don't really have takes on the Kris-Hand stuff except when its smeared with grey
which could be the 'mark of the beast' in DR's set up, with the whole Gaster-666-Element6-Monochrome stuff. But thats very speculative.
crimson badger
there's also the alien soul/thornring
ripe harbor
```Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a l...
while getting this though @low surge I might've found something else
The Dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and **seven heads**, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.
The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.```
'seven heads' specifically here. Though it being a catlike beast of the endtimes rising from the sea helps.
ripe harbor
there's also the alien soul/thornring
alien soul?
crimson badger
us, technically
ripe harbor
oh yeah just being the crown of thorns reference?
Noelle actually does get crucified in chapter 2, which is on a Friday, lol
if she does anything funky / angel related on Monday, I'll count that one retroactively
Sunday actually
Which is the day of the Festival. Whoops.
maybe another half notch to 'Noelle causes the Roaring'
crimson badger
she crashes out and just start opening fountains like crazy after the first one brings "Rudy" back
ripe harbor
```Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a l...
interestingly here, if the 1st beast was at all inspiration for , the 2nd beast being kind of similar to Ralsei is notable. Obviously not gonna be 1-1, but if their origins end up sorta similar, could be something?
ripe harbor
she crashes out and just start opening fountains like crazy after the first one ...
if shes bringing back the dead on sunday after being crucified on friday its a super jesus reference, lmao
crimson badger
she's so doomed
ripe harbor
hmm
I'd heard about this for Mormons, didn't know the older Christians had it too
putting a pin in it for "weeping and gnashing of teeth"
both of which do seem to be aesthetic elements of the Dark. You see both a bunch in the Titan Tower segment.
might even be why the Knight's bullets have that filename 'tooth'
ripe harbor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_darkness
"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth"
^ this the type of shit they were doing to Spamton
low surge
Found an old chapter 3&4 bingo card
sour mesa
far right column bingo
low surge
TRVKE
serene loom
and yes, im counting The Beard, you cant stop me
actually pretty impressive how much they got, though most of them arent too far out there
sour mesa
how did they get the jockington yeah
serene loom
it is specifically mentioned in chapter 1 that Jockington memorabilia is a thing
one of the lockers you can examine in the hall is covered in it
sour mesa
Fascinating
serene loom
(The locker is covered in Jockington memorabilia.)
also in ch2 if you go in the diner susie says
* Catti's working there today.
* She hates me.
* So WHAT if I took Jockboy's hat once?
* I looked cool!
* Jockington fans...
* They're crazy, man.
* Kris, go in by yourself.```and you can find a Jockington zine
restive comet
https://i.imgur.com/5XbJvXi.png
Ralsei also had a breakdown in Ch4
clear frost
https://i.imgur.com/5XbJvXi.png
WE SURE GOT MORE INFO ABOUT TITANS
holy shit man we were not ready
low surge
how did they get the jockington yeah
Also wasnāt Jockington Grows the Beard one of the teaser images from the newsletters before the chapters came out?
timber widget
It was one of the screenshots on the steam page
rain lotus
Found an old chapter 3&4 bingo card
This is a toby fox deep cover agent
What the hell
How'd they get dealmaker being usefulish
lusty cypress
https://www.tumblr.com/57papercranes/807793747312148480/theyd-be-insufferable-im-imagining-this-at-a
low surge
CANON CANON CANON CANON
minor merlin
sour mesa
It was one of the screenshots on the steam page
ohhhh okay
timber widget
https://youtube.com/shorts/YoJ0PHkYnWA
Caption makes me feel like "The cool channel" isn't the original artist
ripe harbor
How'd they get dealmaker being usefulish
probably the Jevil-stuff having some lines in Chapter 2 & Spamton referencing gameshows quite a bit
ripe harbor
Found an old chapter 3&4 bingo card
I think 'Gaster Appearance' is actually one of the crazier things that happened
counting the spoooooooky voice
timber widget
Two, even
timber widget
Both of which were bangers in their own right
ripe harbor
I wasn't expecting the one in the Knight fight
timber widget
The voice appears twice in ch1, then... Is he in chapter 2? I don't recall
ripe harbor
I don't think so, and the UI swaps after chapter 1 to remove all the Gaster-y bits.
timber widget
Yeah...
ripe harbor
Same with the loss-screen
so him just kinda coming back in a "Hmm damn you're getting your ass kicked huh" way?
:o
Its kind of the first direct confirmation that the voice is watching the game, too
Its interrupted / changes speaking style in the intro, and then you only see it in places around the actual game itself (UI and other elements)
& then ofc you get the banger Neverending Nights bit
ripe harbor
and thats just the direct
Hometown's church quoting Entry 17?
also a big reference
lusty cypress
I wonder when we'll see more about light and heaven
Stuff has focused a lot on darkness
ripe harbor
Seam might be an optional magic wizard cat- this is the primary faith of hometown in a mandatory cutscene.
It centers Gaster's stuff in a big way
ripe harbor
I wonder when we'll see more about light and heaven
Stuff has focused a lot on d...
I think there might be a sort of twist relating to it
or rugpull or weird snag?
more along the lines of True Lab expanding on Determination in UT than something completely theoryrotted
probably will be obvious in hindsight how it fits together neatly, no idea right now lol
Even now I don't think there's an agreement on what Spamton meant by 'reaching Heaven'
I've seen 'The Real World, Our World' & 'The Light World' both presented confidently
It'd be kinda sick if it linked together with the Glass-Star elements though, playing into Christian conceptions of a physical crystalline firmament. I'd like it.
If you want to get meta, 'The firmament that separates the heavens as a (Liquid-Crystal?) display screen', maybe
turning the screen you're watching the game through into a literal element in-universe
timber widget
Hometown's church quoting Entry 17?
Pardon
minor merlin
Caption makes me feel like "The cool channel" isn't the original artist
I can go search for the original if you'd like
Nevermind someone else already found it
ripe harbor
Pardon
"Heaven knows
the story that we've born
from our hearts,
Of the shadows cutting deep,
and the heroes that save us."
Heres Seam and Ralsei doing some ambiguous Gaster-y phrases too, just for completeness
but imo, it strikes different to have the Light World's long-established church service do it.
Gives Gaster a bigger shadow over the story. Its not just limited to things that are buried or secret.
astral quiver
(the prophecy is like a real thing, its part of their religious text)
ripe harbor
ya which is wild
if you think its Gaster who was echoing that through time, its reached far back.
It makes his influence on the world more inescapable
(and if you don't think the prophecy originates with Gaster, it raises other interesting questions)
I think its almost academic. The heroes of the prophecy played Dragon Blazers. The guy whispering the prophecy has a wacky relationship with time. It might not have a causal origin anymore.
its just a story echoing from the deep
astral quiver
I think its almost academic. The heroes of the prophecy played Dragon Blazers. T...
not the fucking Song of Storms timeloop
though id love if that was the case
because i love a good time paradox
minor merlin
I love fucked causality tbh
ripe harbor
I think its a big reason for all the derivatives of the prophecy being in-universe media, tbh
Like Gerson wrote Lord of the Hammer, but did he create the story from nothing, or rewrite something that already existed?
Same for Dragon Blazers, and probably same for the Prophecy itself imo.
astral quiver
Like Gerson wrote Lord of the Hammer, but did he create the story from nothing, ...
he based it off the Propechy, and then Dragon Blazers was based on his book
and then Gaster played Dragon Blazers and really wanted to talk about it to someone
ripe harbor
he based it off the Propechy, and then Dragon Blazers was based on his book
yeah exactly. Each one is its own story, but they are also repeating a story they heard from somewhere else.
Is Gaster just 'repeating' what he's seeing / hearing, with the prophecy?
Did the story grow beyond him, in the way that it's almost telling itself?
Is anything really original?
or is it all just a trace that keeps getting repeated?
idk lol. Chapter 5 save me
timber widget
"Heaven knows
the story that we've born
from our hearts,
Of **the shadows cutti...
Huh, for some reason I've just blanked out the "The shadows cutting deeper" line in my brain
serene loom
low surge
Looking into this
crystal shale
Concerning
ripe harbor
Huh, for some reason I've just blanked out the "The shadows cutting deeper" line...
another irl Gaster feat
is there no stopping Him?
oh, huh
For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. ```
(Revelation 9:17-9:19)is the cats-tail snake thing actually onto something? tbh I thought that one was brainrot
lusty cypress
sour mesa
It has the heart but the silhouette doesn't match, is that an obstacle at all?
lusty cypress
Could be a hooded cloak
timber widget
Who's the lonely prince then? Lancer?
ripe harbor
It has the heart but the silhouette doesn't match, is that an obstacle at all?
ralsei takes off the Scarf & its like the scene in adventure time
ripe harbor
https://www.tumblr.com/secret-deltarune-theory-log/808183278609825793/noticing-3...
'what about dessā her song is āfind herā so i fear she doesnt count
ripe harbor
Who's the lonely prince then? Lancer?
I think even if Ralsei transitions she could've still been the prince, tbh.
"I was always a girl" vs. "I was a boy and now I'm a girl". Neither are wrong, just different.
that said I'm still on the best match for that girl silhouette being tattered angel wings
timber widget
I could see it
lusty cypress
Who's the lonely prince then? Lancer?
Left in a classroom of abandoned toys. Yup, a lonely prince
ripe harbor
https://www.tumblr.com/secret-deltarune-theory-log/808183278609825793/noticing-3...
Hmm, Of course, that's not the only version of that song. Lots and lots of things happen. I just hope you can friends with everyone someday. is mildly ticking some Riddle Nonsense flags for me.
versions of a song where lots & lots of things happen sorta describes the prophecy as a whole
and any mention of 'friend' needs a squint juuuuust in case.
ripe harbor
https://www.tumblr.com/secret-deltarune-theory-log/808183278609825793/noticing-3...
its kind of interesting actually how this version of "Lost Girl" starts with the end first
and then fades out on the Raise Up Your Bat / 'Freedom Motif' bit
probably going to be emotionally devastating when all that comes together
motif that plays when you Find Her
velvet olive
I think even if Ralsei transitions she could've still been the prince, tbh.
you can also be a prince and a girl
lusty cypress
manic parrot
ripe harbor
you can also be a prince and a girl
I was thinking that lol but was just speaking in the "Prince = Boy" read you tend to see around transfem ralsei
would that the world was more full of prince-girls..... š
ripe harbor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBEE93gPcpg
10/10. The Fake Roots into Don't Forget made me wince.
strange cloud
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBEE93gPcpg
The fucking lost girl fake outs are crazy good
timber widget
Banger tbh
rain lotus
the fake lost girl and fake tv time are the only ones i recognize
but i'm kinda tone deaf
and it already messes with tone a lot !!
plus lost girl i learned i can play
minor merlin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBEE93gPcpg
this truly was our penumbra phantasm big shot world revolving lost darkness W.D Gaster vessel soul Freedom shadow crystal
ripe harbor
Every lost girl's <DELTARUNE> Connection shatters the twilight reverie across time and space (as if it was never there at all)
and dont forget it
lusty cypress
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TEeC0JU9LE
I love the author's breakdown at queerphobia in the fandom
sour mesa
i can make more controversial theories easily, like- wait no cancel this bit
strange cloud
Hereās my controversial theory: Deltarune will be well written
sour mesa
gasp
low surge
Ralsei just like me frfr
Honestly it makes me uncomfortable how much of myself I saw in him in chapter 4, one of the many things that made me cry
timber widget
Just like Ralsei frfr gang š¤
strange cloud
Honestly it makes me uncomfortable how much of myself I saw in him in chapter 4...
When he apologized for his own misery I almost broke down crying tbh
low surge
Yeah that was not great
low surge
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
Fuck
How it feels every time I try to do anything even remotely positive for myself 
strange cloud
Itās awesome
low surge
Toby Fox developing nanometer precise daggers to plunge directly into the hearts of queer people who have spent their lives towing the lines and being people pleasers
strange cloud
I think Ralsei should be legally allowed to MURDER whoever told him the prophecy
timber widget
Just like Ralsei frfr gang š¤
...Hm.
low surge
He is not only in possession of the spirit of a lesbian teenager but also a burnt out queer person that has spent all their lives saying yes to everyone that asked them anything ever
strange cloud
It was awesome having thousands of complicated emotions and feelings about the people around me and just having to say how sorry I was every time I expressed any of them
And then be reprimanded for saying sorry so often
timber widget
You guys get emotions?
low surge
real
strange cloud
Anyway, Ralsei wonāt become a girl because
timber widget
The Susie-shaped Susie just offscreen:
strange cloud
See thatās why Susie will transition
low surge
Real????
strange cloud
Deltarune theory: no woman will be relevant
low surge
Susie is the kind of person who would learn āoh shit you can choose your pronounsā and just pick whatever for fun. Like yeah my She/Him Queen
timber widget
"Did I say 'sister'? Oh, sorry, Dess is my brother."
low surge
My brother Chester and his boyfriend Togore
strange cloud
Dess transitioned in the void theory:
timber widget
...Hm.
||Why is my gender-masculinity suddenly important to me when that of a character I relate to is brought into question||
||(or is it already, and I just take it for granted)||
Anyway sorry
Deltarune
low surge
See at first I wasnāt big on the transfemme Ralsei train and then I shot estrogen into my thigh and I get it now
strange cloud
Lol
timber widget
myeah
lusty cypress
Ralsei in the cooking show just gives me gender envy
Also, hadn't realized/remembered you can merge the pink and white ribbons
strange cloud
Twin ribbon strongest
lusty cypress
Tri ribbon next chapter
timber widget
Weren't they nerfed?
lusty cypress
Tri ribbon next chapter
Tr ribbon pun
timber widget
||Why is my gender-masculinity suddenly important to me when that of a character...
||Upon reflection, I think my worry about tralsei becoming canon is about everything I've related to about Ralsei has just been in my head, that it's not intentional, not an important part of his arc. That he isn't for me, I guess.||
minor merlin
He is not only in possession of the spirit of a lesbian teenager but also a burn...
ok maybe I am not emotionally ready to play Deltarune
timber widget
Unrelated to that, this has me thinking of the ā¤ļø as a metaphor for social convention, forcing Kris to go out and be active and talk to everyone and make friends, against their will. Even though their life is, like, "objectively" better after us, and they do care about the friends we made them make, we still forced them
lusty cypress
Granted, kris gets how to act out what they're supposed to do
And remove the soul as needed
I think the idea the soul is imposed on them isn't quite right
Well, that the soul imposes on them
They are the cage, which can be a role imposed on them
But they don't show outright rebellion except with the guitar and the weird route
timber widget
Do you show outright rebellion to a parent telling you to go outside? To all your friends urging you to join them for something? The fact that Kris doesn't have it in them to go right back to bed after school every day doesn't mean they necessarily want to be here
manic parrot
But they don't show outright rebellion except with the guitar and the weird rout...
there's also the lead-up and aftermath for the Spamton NEO fight
Susies and Ralsei repeatedly note that Kris seems, to put it lightly, pretty freaked out by the whole experience
lusty cypress
Kris is outright scared of spamton in spute of being sympathetic to him
Yeah
The option to leave spamton shop is "flee"
manic parrot
the obvious implication being that, given the choice, they wouldn't have gotten involved at all and it's the Soul's influence that pushes them along
rain lotus
Honestly it makes me uncomfortable how much of myself I saw in him in chapter 4...
he gave me Specific Person In My Life I Don't Speak To Anymore vibes until chapter 3
then he was just Me
and i dunno how to feel abt that
maybe it's just the Extremely Online Queer Person Angle i've seen
Mutual Friend Of Person 1 kinda got what i was seeing but it might've just been the cloying tbh
ripe harbor
Toby Fox developing nanometer precise daggers to plunge directly into the hearts...
the most devious trick. One second its funny absurd japes & bits and then suddenly you are hit with the Saddest Shit You've Ever Heard.
ripe harbor
the obvious implication being that, given the choice, they wouldn't have gotten ...
Theres some more complicated stuff going around there, imo- Kris actually goes further than the Soul's prodding at actually trying to get Spamton Neo up and running. Kicking and shaking the machine, etc.
I think at first the soul pushed them into it, but during the questline they projected themselves / Dess(?) onto Spamton hard enough to care themselves.
which is also why they're asking questions about "The Knight" and "Friends" and "Fear" in his shop
There's also a minor implication they're saying something during the boss fight, but you just can't hear them. ("[Friends]!? KRIS!? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?")
Or its just Spamton being a lil' crazy and saying shit. But I think Kris wants to believe Spamton can get a happy ending (so they can believe they can, too) even if they are also freaked out.
ripe harbor
I think at first the soul pushed them into it, but during the questline they pro...
Honestly, it might've been when they saw the Spooky Phone
ripe harbor
the most devious trick. One second its funny absurd japes & bits and then sudden...
They fell for the Devious Trick 
ripe harbor
The āsorry for making everything about meā line did
the way Deltarune plays with its medium to make moments more impactful is genuinely masterful & the way Ralsei trips over and progresses his own dialogue boxes, here? Crazy work.
It really feels like a breakdown! Horrible!
I think the part that really let me 'get' Ralsei though was a minute later when even after talking about how much it hurts to keep secrets and worry, Ralsei is still saying he'll share what he can. Torment Nexus. They gave a perfectly normal Dark World Being anxiety is what they did.
What if you were afraid saying anything would make things worse & also saying nothing would make things worse & also you can't get anyone's opinions because nobody else knows so you have to make the decision yourself.
and you can't even look stressed during it and also would like to be able to believe you don't matter because it would make it all easier
timber widget
There's also a minor implication they're saying something during the boss fight,...
Deltarune: [thick book]
Deltarune if you could hear what Kris said: [pamphlet]
sour mesa
their "dess is the knight but in a symbolic doppelganger way" monologue was unexpected in chapter 1 but it helped clear a lot up
timber widget
ā¤ļø Say What's On Your Mind
Kris: This lake is just a penumbra phantasm freedom for big shmmmmhf mmmmh mhh
Susie: Kris...? You started to say something then covered your mouth?
ripe harbor
Deltarune: [thick book]
Deltarune if you could hear what Kris said: [pamphlet]
it is really funny to imagine Kris trying to talk about the but Spamton only-ever refers to it with [Friend(s)] or [Friends]
"Yo dude I see the glasses, did you ever run into any sort of cat that-" and then Spamton interrupts to make it clear he doesn't need anybody, especially not Swatch and especially not his old partner who he doesn't reference, and-
Though textually its sort of hard to tell if Spamton actually knows about the directly, or if he just accidentally dressed like it. Synchronicity style.
rain lotus
i thought the implication was he's jacking swatch's style
i've not seen anyone say swatch is plot relevant but i'm a believer
astral quiver
ye, he tried dressing up as Swatch to get into the castle
or maybe Swatch was just like, so drippy he had to copy it to try rub off some fame
low surge
Bit of both imo
ripe harbor
i thought the implication was he's jacking swatch's style
ya
but thats the Watsonian explanation - the writing reason is probably to connect him to in some way.
So it doesn't actually end up mattering if Spamton knows he looks like The Spooky Cat or not.
I'd believe Spamton's disguise is so bad it looks exactly like The Devil, from The Bible
rain lotus
me being kicked and dragged out of the swatchling cafe after trying to rip swatch's face off
they were an agent of satan i had to
ripe harbor
So it doesn't actually end up mattering if Spamton *knows* he looks like The Spo...
applies to a lot of Spamton's dialogue tbh. Theres the Weird Foreshadowing he's doing and then theres the Weird Foreshadowing Toby is doing, and sometimes it doesn't even matter which it is.
lusty cypress
I forgot spamton robs you
rain lotus
i think if you wanna get technical it's larceny
ripe harbor
robbery
larceny
Ehrm- actually any price you pay to meet with #thebest is a #steal
rain lotus
yeah that's larceny !!!
if we took spamton to court over t his would he be the kind of person to represent himself or would he hire a lawyer
i think he would represent himself and not tell anyone he got his law from gemini
but i could also see him hiring saul goodman
i couldn't see h im actually hiring anyone reputable
wait saul goodman spamton courtroom fic
ripe harbor
if we took spamton to court over t his would he be the kind of person to repres...
hire
he's broke š
luckily, at the last moment, a stroke of luck lands his case in front of Cyber City's newest upcoming public defendant: Nubert, Esq.
rain lotus
yeah that's the twist though
hire with money he doesn't have
(i don't know anything about law im just making shit up)
ripe harbor
well the lucky thing is no matter how the trial goes, nothing in Cyber City is too hard to jailbreak.
