Undertale and Deltarune

[ripe harbor]

maybe its "Issue" like the above thread posits: The game engine runs into a literal issue trying to find the data for gaster_piece and just defaults to egg. Maybe its because the Forgotten Man 'issues' you eggs.

Maybe Gaster does actually have problems with weird pseudo-fragments of himself falling into his experiment, if thats even what they are.

[restive comet]

Honestly, I don't even know if that's supposed to be Gaster

I kinda see Gaster as being like The Author from OneShot

[ripe harbor]

I was just re-reading the alice Humpty Dumpty bit. Its not that much like the Forgotten Man, but they talk about the same sorts of ideas?

[ripe harbor]

yeah it could be something entirely different

[restive comet]

I feel like at most it's going to be an associate

[ripe harbor]

Piece of him could work, I think?

[restive comet]

Yea

Could be kinda like a Liquid Ocelot deal

[rose swallow]

one of the only things we know about the Forgotten Man is that gaster does not like him

[restive comet]

Really?

[rose swallow]

at the end of chapter 4 dialogue, gaster says something about how it's proceeding "without incident"

but that line is ommitted if you ever talked to the forgotten man

[restive comet]

Huh

[rose swallow]

unless someone on reddit lied to me

[restive comet]

Source?

[ripe harbor]

These are probably the most interesting lines if its an intentional reference- probably some similarities you can draw between how Dark Worlds work, or how you find the hidden egg rooms & meet the man.

[ripe harbor]

so its in the playstation stuff, afaik

[rose swallow]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1lbsg37/its_not_gaster/

[restive comet]

Yeah, that's what I thought

[ripe harbor]

https://youtu.be/ori7ZkQNCr4?si=tVts3TSf4aJ7Bdca&t=153

unique dialogue if you dodge every achievement

and the achievement for not gathering an egg in a chapter is to complete it 'without issue'

the Man definitely shows up in the Light World too though, whatever he is

either Kris is supressing memories related to a normal Lightner that much that they need the eggs to even acknowledge him to the narrator, or theres some weirdness going on

[rose swallow]

oh, i didn't know he says "YOU WON'T WIN LIKE THIS" when you beat knight without mantle

indicating the mantle will be required for further shadow crystal stuff

[ripe harbor]

thats when you die to the knight when you can trigger the checkpoint (have reached chapter 3 credits at least once)

but are missing the shadow mantle

probably just a hint for people who actually did miss it

[rose swallow]

aah ok

[ripe harbor]

helping reset during the knight fight is imo one of the biggest indicators of Gaster's motives

especially with the 'Incredible' when you get close

[rose swallow]

(also i didn't know that seeing the credits lets you reset the fight and just sat through the cutscene 100 times 😔)

[low surge]

I always forget the Forgotten Man being in the light world

Whatever the fuck that indicates

[ripe harbor]

he seems geniunely interested in the 'power' the Soul has to affect fate

[ripe harbor]

oof

[rose swallow]

i don't think we're supposed to be able to tell what the forgotten man's deal is yet, but him being the representation of repressed trauma makes the most sense to me

[ripe harbor]

the eggs also act weird between the Dark and Light worlds, staying the same

[low surge]

Shit he got Uni

[rose swallow]

him only showing up in places that don't exist, his eggs being the same in both worlds, and the chapter 4 one straight-up being art therapy where kris is trying to remember something but the forgotten man covers the memory

all indicate it's not really real

[low surge]

I do kind of like the fannon that Gaster was the towns therapist and when UT Gaster shattered himself across time it affected DR Gaster. Even if that’s not it at all it’s just a fun idea and explains why everyone has so much trauma that could be fixed by talking to a therapist lmao

[ripe harbor]

since we were talking about the True Lab earlier today the Memoryhead text is still fresh for me, and seems kinda related.

[low surge]

I agree in a way, I think the Tree is the repression mechanism and the Man is what’s being repressed. Kris still knows he’s there, they still know there’s something behind the tree that frightens them. That’s how I interpret and reconcile the ideas

[ripe harbor]

They get no data or a specific name, almost like their 'memory' has been erased from the world

[low surge]

The therapy room after all is Kris trying to draw the thing behind the tree (which doing so stains their hand) but ultimately blocks it out

[ripe harbor]

and they put a 'Bad Memory' into your inventory - if the eggs are traumatic memories for Kris, its the same thing, maybe?

Its interesting that you only get the Eggs if the man is 'happy' to see you or you do the art therapy / talk to him in a kind way

and his apperances in the light world are also both pretty nice?

waving happily or tapping a takeout box

[low surge]

It’s interesting though that you can “get rid” of the eggs by placing them in the light world. Wonder if that means anything. IIRC the only way to get rid of Bad Memory is to sell it to Temmie right?

[ripe harbor]

(HBC in the video I took these from just now made a note that the empty space name would fit a name thats 6 letters in Undertale typefont )

[rose swallow]

broke: papyrus knight
woke: papyrus forgotten man

[ripe harbor]

bespoke: Toby combines this with the Papyrus is a piece of Gaster theory from UT. All your theories are right good bye.

wheres the really wild theory image I saw the other day-

https://tenor.com/view/deltarune-friend-deltarune-friend-bro-just-typing-shit-typing-shit-gif-3810127543088928232

[low surge]

Oh I saw this

[ripe harbor]

tbh Its got some legs to it - is very weirdly Gaster-connected in aggregate.

from being a Device, to a similar connection to 'Garbage Noise' / mus_smile, to (if it is the 'strange someone') picking up the gaster-y associations through Seam and the musical motifs of the secret bosses quoting Gaster's Theme. Ties to the number 6 (through Element 6) & the Shelter (through Mantle's quest).

Mentioned unskippably during Ralsei's 'Darker than dark' speech, weirdly connected to hands with all the cat-petting and puppetry?

I dont have any idea what it means

if they didn't (seem to) have different personalities and ways of interaction, and if The Voice / Gaster had any pinkish yellowish things going on, I'd honestly give some thought to them as the same entity.

instead they just share a strange and inexplicable connection

[sharp lodge]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1mb4alc/something_annoying_has_happened/

[low surge]

“That fucking dog that I hate”

[analog burrow]

Sans’s Deltarune house having a normal kitchen, when in Undertale the tall sink is specifically a Papyrus renovation 🤨

even if he ain’t the man, which is what I’m leaning towards, I’m 90% sure there is no Papyrus Deltarune at this point

[low surge]

It hasn’t even been 2 months and we’re crack shipping the hallucinations, we’re not making it another year (by @f3rrim4n)

[strange cloud]

I just realized

Pope Francis will never be able to play the finished Deltarune

[wheat adder]

Mat Pat just has to gift the current pope a copy of Deltarune so he can take it with him when he goes

[ripe harbor]

in Heaven they play full release Silksong

If he's in hell they got League of Legends instead

I'm really interested to see if this ends up being one of the UT / DR parallels

because thats Darkners thats what they are

[inland hare]

Soulless husk

With the will to survive

And fear of death

[ripe harbor]

and its the things without a will to surive or fear of death, the Titans, that are scarier

[inland hare]

The titan spawn dives into the light knowing it will destroy them

They are most certainly alive though

Since you get execution points from slaying them

[ripe harbor]

mhm

Darkness is generative, it's like unshaped raw life

[inland hare]

The moth can’t help itself

It longs for the light

[ripe harbor]

like the wording Ralsei uses for the danger the Titan brings even fits into that framing

its "Spawning" already

[ripe harbor]

I'm curious if the in-universe nature of the Soul is going to directly relate to the Titans in a sort of

[inland hare]

Where is the batter when you need him

[ripe harbor]

'stolen from them' way

the visual identity of them as having a massive missing chunk, and the way they laser focus on it while the darkspawn dive towards the light is... interesting

[inland hare]

Titans also do seem to long for the light

Even though it destroys them

[ripe harbor]

They want to be together, I wonder if its them wanting to be together again. The intro of the game does involve the same Depths_Image associated with deeper darkness

The soul came from the dark?

[ripe harbor]

even more interesting is it purifies them / turns them into TP

[inland hare]

There is a light in the darkness

[ripe harbor]

like the little things you pick up are the remains of the titan spawn after exposure to light

So this raw magical power is what happens when you combine scary darkness + soul light

which kind of mirrors the Shadow Crystals in general, or the idea that its things on the border between light and dark that hold a special power?

I don't know where its leading but something's cookin

[ripe harbor]

technically Asriel's already got a depiction in the game btw

there he is!

[loud fulcrum]

That's not Rasi?

[ripe harbor]

it could be, but if its an in-universe reel made by Tenna he wouldn't have met Ralsei before. Ofc, it could also be a meta shitpost from Toby because look at it.

[sour mesa]

ralsei would never use the computer

[ripe harbor]

and this goat

doesnt have pink horns
is using a computer

[sour mesa]

mouse is on the wrong side smh

tenna's a fake fan

[ripe harbor]

he had two mice but lost the second

why do you think the Mike Room (under Kris' bed) had one

sorry its actually under Asriel's bed

[sour mesa]

is there like, a tunnel from the school

[ripe harbor]

maybe you just yoinked it when moving other stuff to Castle Town

I mean you're already taking a TV, dice, remotes, and windowsill figurines

the Green Room itself is based on Kris & Asriel's bedroom

probably says something about Kris that TV world is based around earning 'points' and getting good ranks, given the trophy situation in their room

[ripe harbor]

it probably means nothing that Catti's game cartridge in the dark world is filled to the brim with references to an actual demon

[restive comet]

I just realized something with the easter egg with Kris playing the piano in the Holidays' house

In the game files, the song that plays is called "kris_piano_sevenfour" which I feel has a double and possibly a triple meaning

So, the time signature for that song is 7/4 obviously, but also-

And as for the potential third meaning

https://youtu.be/poKI_MY0Bkw?si=bDOxIBGU7GPsc6R_

"My heart is pounding breathless"
"To know a hero is on the way"

"My knight in shining armor"
"Whose courage pushes the dark away"

"My hero, save me won't you?"

[sour mesa]

i think if toby wanted to reference that song through another track he would have used the melody, not just the title

[restive comet]

Fair

Still fun to think about

[merry arrow]

You think Toby Fox would do that? Reference motifs of other songs?

[inland hare]

No I think he has integrity

[ripe harbor]

How crazy would I sound with the idea that - if its even a single word in particular! - [Hyperlink Blocked] = Deltarune

No sentences in particular where it sounds off grammatically, fits the context of every instance (I guess? Its a weird noun.)

its even bracketed

I'm not convinced there is a specific word that [[Hyperlink Blocked]] is even swapped for

but "You've been [Making], haven't you? You've been making <DELTARUNE>" goes pretty hard

"Don't be greedy. Hand Over. The Disk. Then we will transfer. My <DELTARUNE>"
"We know what we want, don't we? W1ld prizes, Hotsingle, 100 Customer, and most of all.... <DELTARUNE>"

like it even fits how Gaster talks about it - he does want it, its a noun, it can belong to someone.

"Don't Forget...! To [Like and subscribe!] for more <DELTARUNE>"

[rose swallow]

how does "my deltarune" work?

"LOVE" is by far the one that makes the most sense to me

since it has the built-in double meaning of love and level of violence

[ripe harbor]

Ask Gaster

its cause conceptually 'fate' or something similar to agency or choices works best

Deltarune as a noun is already a little wobbly in the game

The symbol is the DELTA RUNE, but the legend of the world, its fate, is DELTARUNE

It can be possessed by someone, or at least the voice refers to it as 'my' Deltarune

[rose swallow]

spamton did not make deltarune

[ripe harbor]

but wheres the term come from?

well, exactly

[rose swallow]

gaster did

which is why he refers to it as "my"

[ripe harbor]

Did gaster choose the name arbitrarily? Or is it 'Gaster's Deltarune'

in the same way the Weird Route might be your Deltarune?

In the same way, maybe, Spamton was trying to gain control of his own fate - make it his Deltarune?

[rose swallow]

then how did he already have deltarune at that point

[ripe harbor]

Because when you say Gaster made Deltarune, what does that mean? Its a symbol and a prophecy and a game-program, and a thing in universe

I think it might refer to fate in general

Its two nouns stuck together, Delta and Rune. Gaster wants his Deltarune, and he wants to make a 'new future'

Deltarune might be a noun that means 'The future you want to create' or something. Your fate in aggregate.

Spamton transfers his ability to do anything into your hands - Love certainly doesn't fit

[rose swallow]

if you redefine "deltarune" to mean something different than how it's always referred to in the game, it mostly works

Love works basically perfectly for every reference

he's uploading his identity and putting his trust in kris, so giving his love to kris

[ripe harbor]

Deltarune as a title doesn't seem to come from anywhere, though

[rose swallow]

it's a proper noun

[ripe harbor]

the most textual definition for it is 'The prophecy and the events that happen within'

but why is it called Deltarune?

[rose swallow]

why is kris called kris

[ripe harbor]

idk from Frisk or Christ or Krismas probably

theres a whole ton of non-arbitrary names

Undertale is a tale about the Under. The title of Deltarune might be related to delta as change.

a change in fate or something. The magic that allows change

especially because it seems Undertale was named after Deltarune - what meaning did Toby Fox have to name two seperate games around an anagram, why call it 'Deltarune' at all?

[ripe harbor]

it gets really grammatically wonky

though "Making Love" is probably the strongest argument for it

[rose swallow]

mentioning "A little love in the morning" in his ideal life also works perfectly, but doesn't fit any other possibility i've seen

and like

"really grammatically wonky" describes every single line of dialogue spamton has

[ripe harbor]

true! but at least the 'usual' swaps still keep the flow

"an [valuable item]" where the swapped word is "armor"

also part of it is that he doesn't have trouble referring to love in any suplementary material

personally I operated under it not being a specific word, but the unobtainable in general or an unreachable state

[restive comet]

If they're songs he composed himself, yeah

[rose swallow]

what do you mean?

[merry arrow]

the joke is Toby Fox fucking loves referencing motifs of other songs

[ripe harbor]

he uses the word 'love' in sweepstakes and valentines things

[merry arrow]

for UT/DR mostly his own songs, but in the homestuck days he'd reference other songs pretty frequently

megalovania was originally a remix of megalomania from live a live

[ripe harbor]

if you assume hyperlinked blocked is a single word that never changes, and its always the same word, usually it implies its also always blocked

[rose swallow]

i think charity giveaways that use a character's image are about as non-canon as it gets

[merry arrow]

a lot of his homestuck songs are remixes of other homestuck songs. I used to joke that homestuck only has four songs

[ripe harbor]

maybe, but it follows the speech pattern and matches things in the game

especially for a bit of a speech quirk that was so debated by the most insane theorists in the fandom, I'd expect it to be consistent

I dont even think he says Hyperlinked Blocked in the sweepstakes stuff

especially because some of it was

100% canon

[ripe harbor]

nope, not once

he does mention love a few times, but always in longer [___] bits

[low surge]

I support this theory just so my goat can beat the creep allegations

[rose swallow]

if you really want to view the charity event as canon and spamton was transferred from kris's pocket to the real world, it's pretty plausible that the force blocking him from referring to love isn't present there

[ripe harbor]

I just don't think Love can be taken for granted as what he means by it in the first place

"I'll shoot for the sky, and get on the path to [The Big One]! I'll get so- I'll get so- I'll get so-
Love."

maybe jerma had the right idea by just grunting in pain every time he voiced it. Conceptual version of touching a hot stove.

[ripe harbor]

100% he's still a creep

& he would say the sentence if it meant love to 2 teenagers & he's still my goat. Thats right 🙂‍↕️.

Love-as-power & fate/choices end up near synonyms in spamton's worldview anyway, thats one of his big character flaws

so you end up around the same place

and the Organikks are no help

no help at all

[low surge]

You know what you right gotta stand on my square

[low surge]

The Organikks were hand crafted by Toby to say the most cryptic least useful bullshit of all time

[analog burrow]

I mean a good place to look for unraveling some of this stuff would probably be the Definitions and usage of “Delta”

[ripe harbor]

its probably multiple uses - 'triangle', 'amount of change' and 'endpoint of a river, estuary' could all fit by the midpoint of the game

Three Heroes following the flow of fate against a rising tide of darkness, to try and make a different future

some king of DELTA RUNE....

[analog burrow]

Yeah honestly as goofy as it sounds, the thing that jumped out to me is that if a panel were to be added to/changed in the prophecy, it could be considered a literal “Delta rune” lol

And got me considering the wildly far-fetched possibility of the Prophecy accounting for its own invalidation

Cause even if the prophecy is broken free from, on a meta-narrative level Kris and friends are still on a predetermined path by the very nature of existing as fictional characters in a video game

https://tenor.com/view/pippins-deltarune-delta-rune-chapter-3-freaking-out-gif-13044638781507916394

[ripe harbor]

true

I think sometimes getting too meta with the explanations for things can prevent interesting speculation

as the chapters have progressed its all gotten even more grounded in the fiction

like the entire Light World faith also being based around the prophecy

I've been thinking about how Gaster will end up fitting in the contained narrative of Deltarune, I can't imagine the CORE and royal scientist stuff would ever be particularly relevant

and you can easily beat Undertale with no idea who Gaster is in that game

Was there a Gaster who feel into his creation in Hometown, as well? Was there funky Gaster experiments going on in the Shelter? Maybe!

When he calls it his Deltarune, the meta explanation is that he's talking about the game. But what would it mean in-universe for it to be his prophecy? Is he forcing it to happen, or just recording it - to what end?

thats the stuff I'm interested in, more than the meta elements tbh

[foggy python]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuZGNUlxY1s

[restive comet]

https://tenor.com/view/v1-ultrakill-ballin-meme-gif-27605211

[low surge]

They make me SICK

Dreemurs try not to fall in love with Holidays challenge (impossible)

[lusty cypress]

In the event, there are multiple spamtons

[lusty cypress]

Carol x toriel

[clear frost]

And of course, one third of the agenda

Oh and dess x asriel

[low surge]

they share a bond over shipping asgore and rudy

rival fujoshis

[amber jolt]

🤔

[low surge]

robert "toby" fox invents an entirely new sexuality in which a male and female individual are mutually attracted to each other, scientists have yet to develop a term for this unheard of behavior

still gay tho

[clear frost]

They’re straight but in a gay way

Also let’s be honest here dess is probably bisexual

[low surge]

she did have that (poorly drawn) sexy dragon picture after all

[lusty cypress]

Asriel gonna come back as a woman with outfit inspired by sword magician girl

Toriel: Asriel, dearie. Aren't you cold?

[low surge]

trust the plan

[dense cargo]

All of the Dreemur and Holliday children are attracted to purple dragons apparently.

[low surge]

i still headcanon azzy coming back built like a brick shithouse and having formed his own punk ska (nightmare nightmare nightmare) band but ill buy that as well

[low surge]

doomed family lines fr

[clear frost]

That would be so based

[amber jolt]

I wonder if Asriel is gonna bring back any of his college friends 🤔

[low surge]

I’d absolutely lose my shit if the chara and frisk college friends thing was real

[timber widget]

Which they built with their Brother Money

[amber jolt]

SAME HERE

unlikely that chara will be brought along

but Frisk? 🤔

there's a small chance they might come to hometown

hmm

[ripe harbor]

Its probably about as canon as the alarm clock

at least the text parts. The video was all WayneRadioTv, but I'm pretty sure Toby wrote the QnA segments himself

it didn't happen, but its true to character

[ripe harbor]

like Sans knowing what Fortnite is

[lusty cypress]

Spamton self copying out of loneliness then they all ditch each other would be hilarious

[ripe harbor]

he loves laying eggs(?) that explode into his face already its one of his favorite hobbies

[lusty cypress]

Tenna having one of his eggs is treated as a controversy

[ripe harbor]

He's a freak for that for sure

do you think the pipis he kept has GNC swag. Because he calls it a girl but it doesn't have the Ms. Pipis bow?

[lusty cypress]

Ms pipis exist?

[ripe harbor]

top 5 Unexplained Deltarune Mysteries...

very rarely, yeah

oh my goodness

two of them Tuesday

#lovewins

[timber widget]

https://www.tumblr.com/themosscycle/790167322797228032/i-want-this-to-be-true-just-because-it-would-be-so

💚💜🩵 The Fun Gang 🩵💜💚

🔁 janknabobfdi

this legit made me stop believing in knight papyrus

themosscycle

I want this to be true just because it would be so funny.

I love how when it comes to Papyrus and Sans theories some of them just… make sense. Like, if this is true it would be totally well done because yes!! It all makes sense. I don’t see flaws.

Also… we already met Burger pants from an ICE-E costume, and this guy is the only one that has never removed it. Totally possible.

-# #deltarune #undertale #utdr #ut papyrus #papyrus ut #papyrus deltarune #deltarune papyrus #papyrus #deltarune theory

Tumblr · Jul 26, 2025, 8:38 PM

[inland hare]

I hate how probable this is

[wheat adder]

https://youtu.be/iL4EeSCQDFk?si=mbvB-wosw6Faca28

[lusty cypress]

Makes complete sense

[sage needle]

I really like this

Because seriously I think it would be kinda lame if an Undertale character was that important to the plot or completely absent

[ripe harbor]

two sans theory is really funny though

https://old.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1mc7uz5/sanss_brother_theory_definitely_serious/

[ripe harbor]

Hit me that its also an explicitly religious term in universe - Spamton would absolutely know about it given the way he already pulls from Hometown's faith in other ways

[restive comet]

https://tenor.com/view/this-is-getting-out-of-hand-now-there-are-two-star-wars-viceroy-jedi-gif-11488909

[ripe harbor]

DO I belive this theory. Idk. Will I consider it. I guess

He already makes a shout to Heaven watching over or 'knowing' things, and I think he and Ralsei are the only Darkners to mention the soul outright(?)

Ralsei's also the first character to mention 'Delta Rune' in reference to the prophecy / legend / fate nonsense

It would follow that Spamton also knows about <DELTARUNE> - but he never talks about it

unless....

[analog burrow]

Maybe the real hyperlink blocked was the friends we made along the way

[ripe harbor]

F-friends?

[sharp lodge]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/576409279935021066/1399817197500498112/image.png?ex=688a60db&is=68890f5b&hm=854a2068e36ca26d12bf40daec5a38c5eb6f2da0ec78464d1854e66b73f12f91&

[inland hare]

damn

deep cut

[ripe harbor]

its very nature is shrouded in darkness....

[timber widget]

In this land, only eyes blinded by darkness can see the way...

[sharp lodge]

https://www.rxddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1mchxzp/tenna_plush_just_got_revealed/

Tenna plush!

[clear frost]

It’s! Plushie! Yaoi! Time!!!!

[sharp lodge]

https://www.rxddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1mcgezw/kris_and_carol_argue_at_the_end_of_the_game/

https://www.rxddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1mc8blw/noelles_sister_rory_nite_heiriz/

Love when people make dess look like a cryptid

[ripe harbor]

Ki||ss|| Your Tv

[ripe harbor]

I love the Mx. Dreemurr bit I did the same thing

[low surge]

Bad news scout

[ripe harbor]

though I said "the right them in the wrong place" instead

[low surge]

Official word from Toby

[clear frost]

Took me a moment to realize that this wasn’t Half Life

[ripe harbor]

I'm a deltarune fan, this post can't stop me because I cant read

😌

[low surge]

Real

[sharp lodge]

It's hlvrai
Also nice icon

[clear frost]

Thanks!

A friend commissioned it for me

[lusty cypress]

"You want to ||????|| the tv, don't you?"

[strange cloud]

Chatroom I’m formulating some thoughts rn and I wanna ask: is there any reference to Kris’s voice being like a speaker besides Noelle in chapter 4? I remember there being but I’m not sure and I can’t remember any other examples

[ripe harbor]

Weird Route Noelle mentions voice weirdness as well

[ripe harbor]

these are all from Chapter 2

[strange cloud]

Ah ok, so yah it was still Noelle but Kris’s voice is absolutely different

[ripe harbor]

idk if noticing it is just a her thing, or if shes the only one with the context whos spent enough time to actually tell

[strange cloud]

Yah, admittedly it doesn’t super help my idea because like, I was sorta hoping for someone other then Noelle to comment on their voice being weird

[ripe harbor]

the most speaker like thing is when Kris is downed during the berdly fight

[strange cloud]

But it being a thing that’s been repeatedly mentioned does help

[ripe harbor]

where Noelle can hear you talking still

[strange cloud]

Yah

[ripe harbor]

mhm

[strange cloud]

I’m trying to kinda put together a break down of “soulless” kris just, being Kris

And not a third entity, or a fundamentally different kind of kris

But just kinda kris

And the whole distinction between how kris used to sound and how they sound with the soul is kinda the best direct evidence of that

[ripe harbor]

Rudy comments on a lot of odd-soul-actions, I'll check his dialogue too

[strange cloud]

Oh yah

I remember him mentioning checking all the stuff in his room, and even visiting him so often is weird for Kris

Though Rudy unfortunately hasn’t interacted with soulless Kris yet

[ripe harbor]

doesn't seem to be a thing he comments on

[strange cloud]

Ah unfortunate

[low surge]

Kris’ voice stuff is so weird

Like I think they still sound different than they do without the soul, but in the weird route it seems that the voice isn’t the same as a normal route

So there’s like 3 voices?

Kris Actual, Kris with the Soul, and Kris with the Weird Soul if that makes sense

It’s also strange how people notice Kris is acting strange but not their voice being different? Like Noelle says she hasn’t heard Kris’ real voice for a while, while also only noticing their different behavior at game start. Like the voice stuff is separate from us almost. So I wonder if that’s just more evidence that Kris has been possessed or something before?

[ripe harbor]

I get the vibe the weird route making 'you' stronger also makes the voice difference clearer

even in normal route Susie and Noelle comment on Kris' voice

Its still not clear what Souls are or their 'True Purpose' in DR

so idk what it would mean that the soul is 'getting stronger', except for the meta element of you gaining more control as the player

[ripe harbor]

It might be because the Soul normally doesn't really choose what Kris says

while the Weird route is very literal in the answers you give

"Yeah sure agree with Susie somehow" vs. "Proceed"

when Noelle says it sounded "on speaker" it might be less that it sounded different and more that it was said louder and more confidently. Its been a consistent Kris trait that they were kind of reclusive and quiet before the Soul showed up.

[low surge]

That’s how I’ve interpreted it yeah

We can tell Kris what to do but they put it into their own words or actions

Like how Kris makes siren noises to warn K Round about Susie in chapter 1

[strange cloud]

I think the distinction is primarily just the nature of the commands

The weird route dialogue has a different feel to it then the normal route dialogue

All being simple one word commands that Kris seemingly can’t interpret differently

That sounds different then just, kris talking normally but on speaker

[low surge]

Could be, just the way the voice is described as sounding terrifying and unlike Kris makes me feel like it tonally sounds different as well. Which isn’t a huge deal since the end result is the same

[strange cloud]

Noelle does actually mention that the different voice is how kris has been sounding recently, before Susie got to know them

So it probably has coincided with our arrival

[low surge]

I thought she said she hasn’t heard their real voice in a while?

[strange cloud]

Susie has been around for like, maybe a few months, and maybe interacted with Kris once briefly, so out of everyone in hometown she’d know Kris’s actual voice the least

[low surge]

Granted I’m not super familiar with weird route dialogue

[strange cloud]

Let me check

Here’s the line

That reads less to me like, she’s literally saying it’s been a long time

And more just the events of the weird route made her feel like so much time had passed so quickly due to the horrible nature of it all

[low surge]

Something else that comes to mind, actually regarding Susie, is the one Noelle blogpost where she witnesses Susie bullying Kris. How they said something inaudible that spooked her so bad she ran out. Might be more what they said than how they said it, just something that sprang to mind

[low surge]

Hmm, I can see it

I really hope we get some more information in chapter 5 about the soul and how long Kris has been possessed because god damn

[strange cloud]

I really do think it’s just that, like they’re possessed by us at the start of the game

However they did rip out their soul before

Not because of another entity possessing them, but just because ripping out your soul seems like a good way to dissociate for kris

Being the source of their will and all

[ripe harbor]

the relationship between us and the soul is the thing that will really lock a lot of it into place

The Soul is us and its a thing in universe with weird abilities we don't know about (see Weird Route), so. I'm not sure Kris had the Red Soul before we showed up.

Its the the thing that enters at the very start, right as our connection does

[strange cloud]

They’ve definitely ripped something out of them before though, with the narration about the bird cage being used before

And the weird prank they used to play on Noelle of ripping out their heart

[ripe harbor]

and the heart-pillows are called Human-Soul shaped

idk

its weeeeeiiiird weird things are happening

[ripe harbor]

If they possessed a soul before we showed up they could've ripped out their old one and swapped it for 'us'

would beg the question of what happened to their old soul,

[strange cloud]

Yah

[ripe harbor]

but any explanation for the gonermaker interruption that involves in universe actors raises questions

I think its easier to believe they stole the physical soul than stealing the metaphysical connection- if there was even a theft at all

[strange cloud]

They don’t seem to have one without us (Noelle describes their voice as weak and they struggle to move outside of our fight with us) so like, if we aren’t their original soul, where is their original soul?

[ripe harbor]

Friend walking away with a suspiciously Human-Soul shaped lump in its throat:

[strange cloud]

Catti did summon a demon

The first demon

A snake

[ripe harbor]

the police sacrifice is actually to reinforce Jockington's decaying homunculus body

[strange cloud]

From @chapter4__

[ripe harbor]

its why his voice quirk has decayed

[strange cloud]

THATS TRUE

[low surge]

FRIENDington grows

[vocal elbow]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1381119681578008629/1399126477534003290/SPOILER_IMG_6824.jpg?ex=688a8092&is=68892f12&hm=4c403df7766c1ae50a9eae4a001282a4c78c7491eb94462751a6e70852b7e0af&

[strange cloud]

Jockington growing a beard refers to his body being strengthened enough to fight at full strength once again

[low surge]

Everyone always blaming tricky tony meanwhile temmantha is out here saying this shit

[ripe harbor]

They'll hear the ring of heavens call -> Jockington Grows the beard -> they'll see the tail of hell take crawl....

all in the same room

[strange cloud]

Temmie just saying important shit is maybe my favorite of her bits

“Im scarier then Gaster”

[low surge]

She’s irl Ralsei when you think about it

She’s known the plot for YEARS

Before the game even started development

[strange cloud]

[low surge]

Cursed with perfect knowledge she can never share

[strange cloud]

Temmie is burdened with knowledge

[ripe harbor]

for every cryptic tweet she made Toby added another dozen sprites to the Kris Piano

[strange cloud]

Temmie is chained to her drawing tablet pumping out Deltarune sprites

Only let out once every month to draw her FFXIV WOL

For enrichment

[low surge]

Temmie when Toby gets on the ground and starts crawling like a horrible spider creature as reference for how the 60fps Friend animation has to look

[strange cloud]

Finding out Toby will act out animations for references may be my favorite thing they’ve revealed about this game’s development

[low surge]

Makes me wonder what other animations that includes

[strange cloud]

Spamton being covered in foam

[low surge]

Toby setting up an elaborate cable system so he can swing around wildly for the Spamton neo animations

[low surge]

real

It’s all connected

[strange cloud]

I legitimately do think Toby was jumping around for Jevil’s

[ripe harbor]

they don't know

[strange cloud]

https://tenor.com/view/does-he-know-gif-17552966235424643644

[ripe harbor]

the foam lore reveal was crazy

[ripe harbor]

Ralsei splat had to be one of them

gut feeling

oh yeah about darkness and snakes

not enough mention of this line

constricts is an interesting word there

[strange cloud]

Hmm

I didn’t think about it much

But yah

It is weird

[low surge]

Literally how does he do it

Just sneaks in little things everywhere

[strange cloud]

Tweet is 10 minutes old

Alright

Cammy I know you’re here show yourself

[low surge]

Cammy lurking in the Pilot NET video games deltarune sub thread taking notes on Scouts ever deepening decline into FRIEND insanity

[strange cloud]

We’re the hidden source for all UTDR theories

[low surge]

Andrew Cunningham where’s my royalty check?

[analog burrow]

IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE MYSTERIES NOWADAYS

Because of nosy people like you :)

-# No one will be impressed

[analog burrow]

Procedurally animated friend

[low surge]

On god if I had come across that shit I would have kept my mouth shut I’m not fucking with the mystery man

[analog burrow]

He knows we crave that deep lore

a truly machiavellian display of social manipulation

[low surge]

That’s why I really fuck with Deltarune, Toby decided “fuck it you wanna dig in the files? Start digging.”

Deltarune is really perfectly structured for theorizing and data diving

[analog burrow]

for real

And going back the original post: With the talk of Jockington and others becoming goners, one could potentially make the argument that The Roaring is already happening 🤔

Titan spawn were already appearing in the church dark world before the knight opened another fountain

Oh, and Kris’s new stat implying we’ll fight more soon

[low surge]

The weird looking fuzzy things?

[analog burrow]

the Purified and Slain stat you get after the spawn fight depending on how you defeat them I mean

[analog burrow]

oh are you talking about those weird things in that one dark room?

[low surge]

The fuzzy eyeball guys

[analog burrow]

Oh I didn’t even think about them! they aren’t even in the dark or anything, which is concerning

I was thinking of these monstrosities

[low surge]

Yea those guys

I mean the spawn do show up in the dark room

It makes me wonder if like that’s intentional or just used as a placeholder for mysterious dark bullshit you’re never meant to see

But if that was the case why not use literally anything else?

Just seems stranger there’d be spawn with no Titan itself around

[ripe harbor]

theres straight up troll moves in the files

my favorite is 10 spaces cleared for chapters

[ripe harbor]

you can totally tell its the spawn even in normal gameplay once you see it, so I think its intentional

& you actually start seeing the tower-spawn even in Susie's Dark World

so I think its just something that happens with overlapping or repeat fountains? Maybe something caused by (light world) darkness, tying into what that Shuttah said about 'worlds tempered by light' and Seam advising you to stay out of Dark Worlds at night?

in both cases, darkness = dark spawning

[clear frost]

What is this thing?

[river moss]

there's a dark room behind a waterfall in ch4 and they're hanging out in the dark. can't interact with them at all, they just wiggle a little bit creepily and you can only see them from walking/making noise

[clear frost]

I’m just gonna headcanon that it’s some sort of “protospawn”

[low surge]

I mean in that case wouldn’t you expect some similar fuckery in TV world? Or why Ralsei would make beds for the gang unless there was like a reason to stay in the Dark Worlds a while without danger? I could see multiple Dark Worlds in the same place maybe being the cause though. The “don’t get caught when the sun goes down” line from Seam is a weird one and I don’t know what to make of it.

[ripe harbor]

I think you do get some of that fuckery in TV world tbh

once the show ends / Tenna starts dipping, everything starts freezing

all the Darkners that were part of his show start turning to stone outright, static/snow falls everywhere

[low surge]

Who else turns to stone besides the Zapper and Ramb?

[amber jolt]

TENNA PLUSH?

[amber jolt]

IIIII think roulx and Lancer did

[ripe harbor]

tbf its the zapper thats hugely suspicious there, thats the first 'native' + fitting Darkner who turns to stone with a fountain up

I dont think the fact its from Catti's house matters at all

As soon as the show stops, the TV remotes don't belong anymore

Ramb turns to stone faster if you don't do Sword route - he only lasts as long there because he's found purpose in helping Kirs 'have fun' (imo)

if you don't even give him that he petrifies much faster

[low surge]

green and blue

[ripe harbor]

Image_Opp

[timber widget]

Wasn't that made by Smallbu?

[ripe harbor]

oh dang it was

uhhhhhhh they pay for her sins?

[low surge]

Do you think purpose might then be important for keeping Darkners animate?

[amber jolt]

TENNA PLUSH

REALLLLLL

[low surge]

Soak them both in liquid!!!!

[restive comet]

https://youtu.be/n2ikgY1R-IY?si=jFJxM_JKB41h_7Gr

Ngl, I find this fan hack pretty damn impressive

[sharp lodge]

https://www.rxddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1mcs30o/eram_gal/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[low surge]

I lowkey hope ERAM is like their own thing but it’s probably friend or some shit

[sharp lodge]

http://youtube.com/post/UgkxLKXgxwhpVE6tIL8cMZHBz1djPTYNG88N?si=sVUIWpk2eGsdkX12

[lusty cypress]

Eeeh
A bit too sexy

[strange cloud]

Chatroom, someone pointed this out to me

Unlike the titans, the knight when mercied has the generic “its name wasn’t yellow” line

So it probably is sentient to some degree

[clear frost]

Final Month

[dense cargo]

Its behaviour in Chapter 4 had already made that pretty clear imo.

[low surge]

For sure they are

If it’s Dess I’m still unsure they’re really all there mentally, but the knight isn’t as feral as I had assumed initially

[lusty cypress]

In chapter 3 kris signals to the knight to finish the fight

[dense cargo]

And they spend a lot of time taunting Susie

[strange cloud]

I mean yah but I still did see a lot of opinions the knight is mindless like the titans are

[clear frost]

If it really was mindless it wouldn’t need to aurafarm

[low surge]

True

I thought the knight was mindless at first because I hadn’t seen the scene for if you beat them, but yeah clearly they’re a massive showboat doing jojo poses and flying around

[inland hare]

It’s not mindless yeah

It’s almost constantly showboating

[river moss]

from @hollyrogerbay on twitter

[south flume]

Thought much is lost, much abides

[amber jolt]

FINGERS IN HIS ASS

[ripe harbor]

ya

actually, I've been wondering if its important for keeping Lightners animate too, depending on what the deal with Goners is

they aren't that different

turning to stone fades color to monochrome

not having a purpose means you aren't connected to the world, you don't 'belong' - it could function perfectly fine without you

🤔

I mean obv the mechanism seems a little different, darkners turned to stone are literal statues and don't talk. But its that theres two 'lose color and leave the world' transformations going on.

[timber widget]

I have scarcely seen a darkner so driven as Rouxls Kaard, yet at the precipice of his triumph, he too turns to stone

[ripe harbor]

this is written exactly like how an environmental storytelling letter from a doomed centuries-old expedition would read

[ripe harbor]

Truthwaves + Truthswing + It's TRUTH Time!

[rose swallow]

but jockington is already confirmed to be the knight

since when you tell kris to think about the knight's face, they concentrate very hard on thinking about jockington

[ripe harbor]

yeah exactly - clearly the knights been giving out the shadow crystals, and so jockington was the guy who gave it to spamton to make him go craaaaaaazy. He's what pulls the strings and makes them ring! It all adds up.
||/s||

= catti's dark world form shes just there to support Jockington

doesnt want to steal the spotlight though, plus is busy with her job. So she mostly sticks to the sidelines

btw

what the hell is this a reference too

(in Gerson's fight)

???
I don't even remember seeing it in game, I wonder if theres a weird trigger for it? If its unused?

[restive comet]

https://youtu.be/as6pUjlWuTs?si=0xLrmmk_Yp8jWeKq

[clear frost]

Old niche jrpg

[analog burrow]

My bet is 90% on exceedingly something exceedingly niche and 10% a Froggit quote or something

[ripe harbor]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaeru_no_Tame_ni_Kane_wa_Naru

Kaeru no Tame ni Kane wa Naru (カエルの為に鐘は鳴る), officially translated as The Frog For Whom the Bell Tolls, is an action role-playing video game developed by Nintendo and Intelligent Systems

hmm

perhaps

[analog burrow]

Yeah that checks out lol

[ripe harbor]

Several characters and elements from Kaeru no Tame ni Kane wa Naru, including Prince Richard, make cameo appearances in the Game Boy title The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening.

and

it fits esp if its related to Link's Awakening

which was already being referenced in chapter 3 and the ARG stuff lol

might've been fresh on the teams minds

[analog burrow]

Meanwhile I was looking at Frog dialogue in Chrono Trigger

[ripe harbor]

I checked there first tbh I just found this while looking

[analog burrow]

Ahh

[ripe harbor]

its not just referenced in Link's Awakening either

seems like the engine used in LA was first used here. They share a lot of design bones

I'd never heard of this game

[analog burrow]

Definitely seems like the kinda thing Toby would reference

I was too honed in on Chrono Trigger to notice, probably due in part to experiencing a niche reference firsthand (In another game) to the final boss’s “true form” being the orbital on the right and not the body in the middle lol

[ripe harbor]

I wonder if the Nightmare fight in Link's Awakening being a boss rush can be used for the shapeshifter agenda

maybe tangentially

[low surge]

Toby Fox meticulously crafting one off dialogue that may not even appear specifically to drive Scout insane

https://tenor.com/view/breaking-bad-chemistry-experiment-scientific-walter-white-gif-17820266

[clear frost]

One of us here is Toby fox, determining exactly how to drive the others mad

[ripe harbor]

I gotta stick to themes and vibes! its the most surefire way to theorize!

and idk 'narrative import'

unfortunately vibes aren't actually good for convincing other people

[ripe harbor]

😭

even Gaster gets in on it

[analog burrow]

Where does Papyrus Knight fall on the scale of literal reading vs vibes based theorycrafting

[ripe harbor]

its funny

🙂‍↕️

[low surge]

I feel bad for Papyrus fans

Y’all out there starving

[strange cloud]

Knight papyrus, dead

Forgotten man papyrus, never even alive

Warrior papyrus, ridiculous

All that’s left:

Papyrus chapter 5 secret boss

[low surge]

Two Sans Theory

[lusty cypress]

Papyrus dust theory

[low surge]

Really no idea what Papyrus could even do/be at this point

He’s been so absent from the story it would be a real reach for him to be a major player

Like sure Asgore didn’t show up till the literal end in Undertale, but like people still frequently talked about him

Papyrus isn’t even referenced really

[restive comet]

I do like the idea of Sans and Papyrus being fragments of Gaster potentially

[ripe harbor]

both of them in Undertale had an ambigious connection to Gaster, and Deltarune is way more upfront about Gaster as an active participant in the story

so they still got space in the upcoming chapters

I hope we get a duo fight against both of them at once

[ripe harbor]

like I think he could have a Berdly-sized space in the plot

easy

[low surge]

For sure

Berdly didn’t really have a lot in chapter 1 so I could see it working

But I just don’t expect him to be of some greater significance

[sharp lodge]

I don't either i just want him to show up

[ripe harbor]

Total Yaoi Victory!!!

#lovewins!

[low surge]

United once again

Spamtenna nation how we feeling

[low surge]

This is why she is a disaster lesbian for the funny dinosaur

The only thing keeping her sane

[low surge]

How do you think Father Alvin is gonna take it when he comes into work tomorrow to see the nave trashed, half of the shit inside stolen, and a letter from his dad telling him to stop being a priest and believe in himself written in the worst handwriting he’s ever seen

[gilded canopy]

I don't recall the letter telling him to stop being a priest, just to not let the weight of legacy prevent him from writing his own sermons

[low surge]

Hyperbole but yeah true

[ripe harbor]

kind of a cool idea

[sour mesa]

where's the will injector art from?

[ripe harbor]

would fit the general aesthetic thing the Dark Worlds have going on with smiles, if these things-

were related

[ripe harbor]

I'm not sure where this one is

but its supposed to be the 'Gaster Blaster' sprite I think

[ripe harbor]

This is actually another "Half Bread Chaos was cooking years before anyone else and might've nearly got it, just missing the later context"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aemcCwF5eGY

I don't know if its a Gaster thing so much as a general darkness thing

which Gaster kind of picks up because he's the darkness guy

[ripe harbor]

so idk. Theres aesthetic symmetry if this was the case, even if its a bit out there as a guess.

DT Extractor + A huge smile = something related to the dark. Sure I can buy that.

[ripe harbor]

this actually is one of the more subtly strange things about the Titans, I think? Literally every other big darkness enemy has prominent smiling or laughter in their design, including secret bosses.

and all of the main chapter antags have their eyes shrouded normally

meanwhile titans have no mouth and their spawn are little but a big eye. Its probably to keep them feeling mindless, smile implies emotion.

[low surge]

HalfBreadChaos is the goat of the theory sphere

Easily my favorite theorist

[ripe harbor]

I always liked them but for pre-chapter 3 + 4, and often pre-sweepstakes they hit a LOT of stuff-that-got-expanded-on

like-

https://youtu.be/ftQNVAY6KeU?si=G6yvVTxNnpqPpFL2&t=609

an april fools(?) video

but-!

"What if 'The Nightmare' is in reference to a strange cryptid-like creature who also might be ICE-E who's stalking Hometown?"

Idk if thats actually the case in the game, but its definitely a more popular theory nowadays!

its a take from 2022 that would fit what people post now. Not many theories from then survived like that.

[ripe harbor]

Months before 'FindHer.ogg' and they were drawing timelines of Dess going missing -> Dreemurr breakup, the idea that the kids went exploring near the bunker Shelter™ and ran into something

"But what if, hypothetically, the thing lurking around this area wasn't Gaster himself, but one of Gaster's creations?" -> Mus_Smile and Entry 17 as describing Dark World creation.

their conclusion about Gaster and the Knight and Dess' disappearance might be a bit off but they were making a thrust in the right direction! I can't blame them for missing pieces that weren't even there yet, those are some crazy pulls!

[rose swallow]

ok sorry to necro but. There is one pair of shoes in the room that we don't see, which is packed into a box separate from everything else, and those are the only ones described as being modified for hooves.
Feet and hooves have very different shapes, and every shoe we actually see is very clearly shaped for feet instead of hooves.

If there were two people in town with red hair, I wouldn't say "The redhead girl and her sister", I would say "The redhead girls".
That's just..the definition of the word "the"

also this isn't true? there's some scrapped concept dialogue toby released where asgore mentioned them, but they're never referenced in the undertale world in anything close to canon

[ripe harbor]

Noelle and Dess' relationship is underlined more in the phrasing that seperates them over "The antlered sisters". Or it implies more familiarity with Noelle compared to Dess (whos also mentioned less than Noelle in the alarm clock stuff). More than implying anything about her antlers, imo, its saying the most important thing about Dess is her sisterhood to Noelle.

[ripe harbor]

this is true though

well, it wasn't scrapped

[sour mesa]

I thought alarm clock was complete yeah

[ripe harbor]

It was officially released on the site

its not canon to the game Undertale, but its def supplementary

[rose swallow]

in terms of writing, dess being the only other human in town in the same situation as kris just has a ton of character potential imo

and most importantly,

[ripe harbor]

ya this artist makes cute stuff

[low surge]

HBC was just Toby’s alt account where he could vent

[ripe harbor]

Toby could pull off a human dess for sure

[low surge]

It is crazy how close they got on a lot of stuff though

[ripe harbor]

I think its less implied than the alternative, but I don't think it would inherently be worse or anything

[low surge]

Human Dess is kinda cool but I don’t really see it happening

[rose swallow]

dess having one hundred shoes shaped for human feet when it's repeatedly mentioned that shoes need to be modified for hooves and we never see a single hooved character wear shoes is just such a bizarre detail

[low surge]

I mean we don’t really see these modified shoes in the pile, just that it’s there. How they’re modified we don’t know, one would assume that if she wanted to wear shoes she’d probably want them to look like shoes

We do see some roller-skates that look normal though

[ripe harbor]

(I'm really curious what they think of all the Friend stuff, given how their earliest videos go. "It's weird Spamton is cat type, right? Whats up with that." -> "Look at these messages in the files (inc. the UT 'humblest servant' stuff.)" -> "The True Lab and Gaster are all pretty Dark World-y huh. The Amalgams seem to really match." -> "Whats up with 'The Nightmare'? Whats up with Smiles?")

It's like they were the green pippin and only after new info can you step back and notice
all these theories actually might be one bigger theory

[low surge]

They mentioned working on some videos to help new players keep track of everything before going back to theory stuff, genuinely very excited to see what they come up with because they have such a solid understanding of the game and its themes

[ripe harbor]

a fantastic eye for noticing things that stick out & the just-as-important theorist ability to not tunnel vision on their existing interpretation

[low surge]

And paying attention to the Japanese translations, which a surprising amount of people don’t

[ripe harbor]

They didn't put forward super speculative theories, but just kept returning to the data they had and painting in broad strokes - and it worked. They might not have been able to explain the why, but it was excellent at finding what was important to take note of.

also about the Dess shoes I just assumed they were also all hoof-fitted

the only interactable shoe in there is, and I'd expect a more blatant hint towards her being human than that? The heart pillows is imo more convincing.

thats really weird from Carol lmao

[sour mesa]

exchanged gifts with the Valentines

[ripe harbor]

The Valentines enjoying their generous presents, courtesy of the Holiday Administration:

[lusty cypress]

Carol is only excessive

[sharp lodge]

https://youtu.be/Y9XRMC0ez7w?si=4pBpy9CeKIVJqavA

Kinda intesting that this song pulls so much from don't forget but kris doesn't resolve it properly at the end

[ripe harbor]

they forgot 💀

[sharp lodge]

Given how they bend over a bit it makes me wonder if they were too emotional to play that part

[analog burrow]

Part of me thinks Kris doesn’t want it to end

[sharp lodge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VAIVjjxuNE&t=278s

why does noelle have dialogue for being given unused items
why does kris refer to them as unused

from 18:03

[ripe harbor]

the game's code basically pretends Noelle is an average party member, she has dialogue reactions for nearly everything the usual three do from chapter 2+

even some unique coded interactions you can't ever trigger (right now)

"... fine, you can have the LAST DROP." [When using it on Noelle] 

Using this item on Noelle will heal her for +155HP instead of +160, and additionally will heal Kris +5HP```

about 30% of the time they're Ominously Lost Girl related

[sharp lodge]

No i mean she gets dialog for unused placeholder items

[ripe harbor]

Susie and Ralsei do too (for things like the Everybody Weapon), but Noelle's is a bit different.

[inland hare]

I think maybe it’s evidence that Noelle was “intended” to be a party member

[ripe harbor]

difficult to tell. Depends on if you think there are four mentioned characters in the prophecy, and if you think Ralsei was just completely off the mark.

Its at least another place shes put on level with Kris and Susie, like the fun gang art or the Introduction name sequence.

[restive comet]

https://youtu.be/9Uxkzk142BU?si=SrPUon8eTTGgcJww

[lusty cypress]

Oh I'm finally seeing pop up on youtube theories that accept kris has some agency and didn't get randomly invaded

[sharp lodge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4cHKITnz1I

[low surge]

Just popped up on my feed, will have to give it a watch

[ripe harbor]

its awesome they're the character we control and also one of the primary antagonists

people out here like "is Kris evil? ☹️" booooo I support my thems wrongs. Yessss get entrenched in a guilt-trip conspiracy. Betray your friends because you think you have to.

Broke: Mantle game represents how Weird Route the player is going to kill Ralsei and Susie.
WOKE: Mantle game represents how Kris is already stabbing them in the back and you're just making the metaphor more painfully upfront.

[strange cloud]

Eh, not sure I super agree with some of this analysis, mostly the parts about Kris being able to do stuff unprompted more as the game goes on

Mostly because Kris already has quite a bit of unprompted actions/dialogue in chapters 1 and 2

Like their famous love of moss

We didn’t tell ‘em to eat that

They saw the moss and they gobbled it right up

[formal valley]

Kris being an antagonist is so good, but I feel like folks have given them a lot of slack because of just how bad the player is during the weird route.

But in the normal route Kris did actively aid in their own mothers attempted kidnapping. Which is nasty work

[rose swallow]

we know Kris made a deal with tenna to stall Susie until the knight arrived, I don't remember, did they know toriel was captured?

[strange cloud]

Also I kinda disagree with Carol knowing about snowgrave, primarily because snowgrave is still a level of weirdness that doesn’t really seem possible in even the most extreme interpretation of the soul. As well, with Queen as a clear parallel to Carol, it would be strange if her parallel wasn’t aware of the weird route happening but she was

[formal valley]

…. Why else would they do that?

[strange cloud]

Like, I just don’t think Carol will be this completely evil manipulator in the weird route

[formal valley]

Yeah I agree I don’t think Carol knows about the weird route

[rose swallow]

well it's pretty likely undyne was the real target

[ripe harbor]

that gives them an even better reason to set up Tenna to capture Toriel

They clearly care about their mom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esWXxwXUDOA

Its pretty clear that Tenna is a bit afraid of Kris

the whole set-up was their idea

I don't think Tenna could or would be holding Toriel hostage as a betrayal of Kris here

"I... I did what you said, Kris! Ha... Just like our deal!"

[rose swallow]

semi-unrelated, we know that Kris tries to stop weird route when acting freely. I wonder what they do after chapter 4. If I was in their position I would 100% call Carol and say "hey, the soul is actively abusing Noelle, she is in immediate danger, get her out of town for a few days"

[ripe harbor]

• outright betraying Susie's trust and manipulating her for, honestly at this point, probably the entire game.

thats the real stinger.

[dense cargo]

I'm still wondering how she's gonna take it.

[ripe harbor]

not well!

[formal valley]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcBiGkfVxBE

has this been posted here yet?
Its my fav Kris and Soul dynamic video

[ripe harbor]

I think there is pretty solid evidence Ralsei might already suspect it, or have a better idea than Susie what's going on

[strange cloud]

Ralsei definitely at least knows about us and Kris’s situation

[dense cargo]

As well as how she's going to take a substantial portion of her interactions with Kris, and them becoming friends in general having been done while we were in control.

[strange cloud]

Idk if he knows about the knight gang though

[ripe harbor]

The only thing is how immediately and offhandedly he's aware of Susie having made 2nd Sanctuary

either for Prince of Darkness reasons, or Prophecy reasons or whatever

no comment on TV World

[strange cloud]

It could be justified that like, he was there in the first sanctuary?

[ripe harbor]

and he for sure knows more about the plot thats coming than Susie

[strange cloud]

But yah it’s

Weird

[ripe harbor]

I don't think I'd claim rn that he knows about any conspiracy stuff going on

but given what he's already hiding, I wouldn't be surprised

[strange cloud]

Admittedly as much as he hides everything, I do think the knight and the roaring is like, the one thing he truly more than anything wants to avoid

Like you saw his reaction to the knight making a Titan

He’s genuinely horrified

Even if he knows that the world can’t end because the prophecy says it won’t, it’s still genuine fear

[ripe harbor]

Devious to slip the Dummy! motif in there

I've never thought Ralsei was evil. He's too sweet to be malicious.

[eager hinge]

there is not a malicious bone in that boy’s body

[low surge]

I’m so glad evil Ralsei theory is dead and buried

[eager hinge]

https://tenor.com/view/ralsei-deltarune-ears-flap-gif-7996829030372836870

[low surge]

And asriels ashes too

[low surge]

Get that shit OUTTA HERE bro

[ripe harbor]

its ambigious wording here, hmm

I read it as "Everything I can (afford to actually share)."

[low surge]

Yup

[ripe harbor]

not "Everything I (physically) can."

[ripe harbor]

which is! you don't want to hear this from the guy with future knowledge!

[formal valley]

Its sooooo good

[strange cloud]

I’ve been a hater of evil Ralsei since DAY 1

[ripe harbor]

It always involved basically ignoring 80% of the text to focus too much on the suspicious things

[low surge]

Truth

[strange cloud]

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SLANDERING MY BOY FOR 7 YEARS

ADN LOOK AT ME NOW!

[ripe harbor]

like yeah he was very obviously hiding something, and he very obviously cares about Kris and Susie

[strange cloud]

I STAND VINDICATED

[low surge]

We will tolerate NO fluffy boy slander

[rose swallow]

I definitely wouldn't call ralsei "evil"

[ripe harbor]

I put all my money on "He's hiding things for their sake" and it was the easiest bet of my life

[rose swallow]

but I do not think he's 100% forthcoming about his motovation

[strange cloud]

Legitimately

[low surge]

People just really wanted that Asriel Flowey surprise twist bad guy who’s cute and friendly

[strange cloud]

Like, that was so obviously the point of the post Spamton fight scene

Ralsei literally tells Kris, don’t think about it, try and be happy

Because that’s his stated purpose in life

Repeatedly

He talks about how making lightners happy is why he exists

[ripe harbor]

I think... hmm. I'm not sure what his motivation for sticking to the prophecy so much is (he might be geniunely afraid of the end of the world for purely moral reasons, even without having met Lightners?)
But I definitely believe it when the game when it calls him the lonely prince.

Emotionally he wants friends

[low surge]

And is constantly bringing up how Darkeners can only feel fulfilled if they serve their purpose

[ripe harbor]

yeah

I dont know if he has a reason beyond the purpose he was stamped with

[low surge]

Lancer, King, Queen

[ripe harbor]

its just kind of taken for granted by him

He exists to do what its been said he will do.

[ripe harbor]

& this is also pretty much what he's doing all of chapter 4 as well

[low surge]

The overly obedient eager to please child my poor little boy 😭

[ripe harbor]

he wants to change fate, knows its almost certainly not going to happen,

so he wants to ease their journey

what's he say during the hallway scene? "If theres any pain I can take in your place, if I can make it any easier, please.... let me." or something

[strange cloud]

Yah

He’s a fatalist, through and through

He knows, for a fact, this story will end in tragedy

That something terrible must happen for the world to be saved

So, all he can do is make the journey as pleasurable and fun as possible

Even if he knows it’s a death March

[ripe harbor]

someone pointed out something interesting in the titles in chapter 4 actually about that

[strange cloud]

Hm?

[ripe harbor]

SUSIE - Dark Hero - "Carries out fate with the blade."
RALSEI - Dark Hero - "Faces and records the fate."```

Susie's can change later if you do the Gerson sidequest,

SUSIE - Axe of Justice - "Faces fate with the blade."

but its interesting that Ralsei is singled out even at the start

[strange cloud]

Yah

[ripe harbor]

He's 'facing' the fate, like Susie later is

but records

thats interesting

[golden haven]

Susie is so shonen character coded its so cool

[ripe harbor]

It almost implies he's a bystander to 'the fate'

[strange cloud]

He’s a living record

Burdened to face fate, and do nothing about it

Other then let it happen

[ripe harbor]

the person I saw note this went on to argue the final prophecy involves Susie and Kris fighting each other

but even without that conclusion theres something going on

[strange cloud]

it’s why we need to beat the ass of whoever told him the prophecy

[ripe harbor]

The Man Who Catches These Hands

[strange cloud]

I ain’t interested in kissing you Gaster!

Im interested in beating your ass!

[strange cloud]

Hmm, idk, that doesn’t feel right

[ripe harbor]

oh!

other thing

[strange cloud]

I don’t have any like, specific narrative or thematic evidence to disprove it

It just doesn’t pass the vibe check

[ripe harbor]

yeah I didn't necessarily buy the final bit, but I think they noticed something interesting™

[strange cloud]

Yah Ralsei’s title is definitely interesting

Especially since Susie is the one who changes to match it

Despite her coming out of chapter 4 with the opposite mindset he does

[ripe harbor]

Post chapter 4, and the reveal that Ralsei was pushing for pacifism the entire game to try and avoid whatever bad end is coming,

[strange cloud]

Ralsei still being fatalistic and Susie thinking she can change fate

[ripe harbor]

makes these lines a little more ominous imo

when you give Ralsei the in universe representation of the strings of destiny

[strange cloud]

Damage Ralsei is a sin

[strange cloud]

Oh my fucking lord you’re right

[ripe harbor]

they lower his healing, and have him start dooming about 'having to fight....'

thats a bit worrying!

[formal valley]

Im pretty big on “Ralsei knows fire magic but chooses not do it” theory even though the only evidence is that one Act

[ripe harbor]

what if we have it all backwards and he knows weed magic

and the fire part is only in the Lighting Up

[strange cloud]

[ripe harbor]

I'm still not sure what all this implies about the foretold tragic ending, or what it could be

but I don't think party conflict is out of the question

[formal valley]

Like it would be such an interesting and fitting ripple to Ralsei’s character

In general I feel like Ralsei has only been using 10% of his power or something

[strange cloud]

Also, my Ralsei Hot Take ™ is that I really don’t think his arc is gonna be like, him learning how to fight better as like, a positive beat

[formal valley]

Definitely not

[delicate cave]

Oh no. Ralsei boss fight mirroring UT Asgore where he's trying to prevent us from doing something tragic and ill-advised

[strange cloud]

Especially with what scout just pointed out, violence is not a means of subverting the prophecy

Pacifism might not be either

But at least pacifism seems to actually make people happy in this game

[inland hare]

there are some enemies against which you do just have to fight

[delicate cave]

Chapter 4 is interesting because it makes the case (via Ralsei!) that sometimes violence is the answer.

[ripe harbor]

I think that is a bit of growth for him

[strange cloud]

Yah but you don’t actually defeat the Titan with violence, you defeat it with light

[ripe harbor]

Chapter 1 Ralsei healing King vs. What he does to that FakeGerson

[strange cloud]

Purifying titans and their spawns does seem different in a tangible way

With the ominous slain counter looming above

[strange cloud]

Yah I’m not saying he may not learn how to fight better, I just don’t think it’ll be good for our goat boy

[ripe harbor]

And violence against Titans isn't the same as other violence, they aren't (as far as we know ) people

[strange cloud]

I think it’ll be very bad

[ripe harbor]

I want him to make a stronger bond with a specific Darkner than the other two

[strange cloud]

A sorta, resignation that pacifism can’t change anything, so why try

[ripe harbor]

He kinda doesn't really bond with Darkners during chapters.

[strange cloud]

Seam?

[ripe harbor]

Susie's out here befriending Lancer, Tenna, Gerson etc

[dense cargo]

He barely interacts with anyone outside the main party

[ripe harbor]

^

yeah I don't mean specific like anyone we know right now

[strange cloud]

Ohhh

[dense cargo]

And people seem to find it suspiciously easy to overlook him

[strange cloud]

Yah I see what you mean

[ripe harbor]

I just want a new character whos primary link to the party is through Ralsei

I think it'd be good for him

[strange cloud]

(Come on have an interesting dynamic with the flowers Ralsei)

[dense cargo]

Though thinking on it, Tenna didn't

[strange cloud]

Genuinely, I do think if it’s anything it’s gonna be the flowers

[ripe harbor]

Kris is fighting Video Game Creepypastas and meeting with homeless men in alleyways Ralsei needs to catch up

Honestly even Asgore could be pretty good

Ralsei and Noelle barely have anything, Ralsei doesn't have any particular reaction to Berdly

[strange cloud]

Like, I know a lot of people think Ralsei won’t get a solo fight because chapter 3 and 4 have kinda, ruined a lot of patterns people thought the game was gonna follow,

But,

The solo secret boss is a new pattern it has introduced and Ralsei is in some desperate need of character development and yah characters he interacts with outside the fun gang

[ripe harbor]

Darkner or Lightner, Ralsei needs to have a making friends outside of who the prophecy tells him to make friends with arc

[strange cloud]

Kris and Susie have gotten there’s that directly relate to their issues

Let him have this

[ripe harbor]

and I think it could dovetail into some other interesting things for his character

[strange cloud]

Especially since chapter 5 is gonna be our last shadow crystal

[ripe harbor]

like pushing Susie and Kris to do things because its something he wants

[strange cloud]

And Ralsei still hasn’t gotten a major focus in any of them yet

[ripe harbor]

because he cares about someone they might not, as much

[strange cloud]

Yah that’d be interesting

[ripe harbor]

Ralsei vs. Roulxs Kaard solo secret boss fight.

https://tenor.com/view/black-guy-eating-good-food-wow-shocked-at-how-good-the-food-is-gif-4442559760889363287

[strange cloud]

As foretold in the prophecy

Part of me does genuinely want a sans or papyrus secret boss not only because funny and blue soul, but also genuinely I think it’d be really interesting for Ralsei to fight a lightner

These beings he sees as above him, who he think he exists to serve

I don’t think it’s likely but it’s still a neat idea imo

[ripe harbor]

I almost expect a sans non-secret boss tbh

if that counts as something Undertale didn't do, like a Gerson fight or NEO

normal sans

[sharp lodge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANhcwWxVvys

[strange cloud]

There being a song that’s literally “the song that might play when you fight Sans” in undertale feels so deliberate

It’s insane

[ripe harbor]

Deltarune having 'song that could play when sans fights you' and its not used anywhere in game but its on the OST

and its just Megalovania

[strange cloud]

LOL

[sharp lodge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3cD_WXXjeY

[lusty cypress]

Also the one with "kris chose you" thumbnail

[low surge]

Real tho

[sharp lodge]

https://old.rxddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1mak9je/i_have_a_very_silly_head_cannon_about_the_knight/?ref=share&ref_source=link

[sharp lodge]

i wonder where the weird route's gonna go in future chapters
cause up until now it's been (imo) about making noelle into the second hero, but i'm not sure where it's gonna go when that's done

it can't just be abusing noelle because ralsei's scared that an alternate ending to the prophecy will be worse somehow but idk how we get there from chapter 4 weird route

[sour mesa]

chapter 5 introduces a Smart Route in which you date berdley

[rose swallow]

i've seen a lot of people suggest the soul will transfer from kris to noelle in future weird route

which would be very cool and would make a lot of sense with what we've seen in the weird route so far

but it wouldn't line up with the ch3 video game

[low surge]

I’m still on Second Soul theory

I’m wondering though, if it’s not so much us controlling Noelle (at least long term) as it is growing a second soul to harvest? She is inevitably going to be “used up”. Much is said of monsters gaining even one human soul and how powerful that makes them, but do we have any idea what happens when a human has more than one? Granted this also hinges on the soul working the same as Undertale (which it doesn’t) but the soul clearly still has some strange powers

[sour mesa]

what stops the soul from working the same as in undertale?

[rose swallow]

in undertale there's no distinction between the player and their character, while in deltarune there very much is

which could just be a factor of frisk not being "real"?

[low surge]

And there’s the lack of LOVE progression in the light world (which is I guess more tenuous). There’s also all the light stuff, being able to literally project light and seemingly increase the powers of others through said light (which may not be literal)

[strange cloud]

There is, it’s just never mentioned until the literal very end

With flowey asking you, not Frisk, to not reset and let everyone have their happy ending

And Chara talking to you, not Frisk, about destroying the world

Either way it’s when Frisk exits the story

Leaving you behind

[rose swallow]

in deltarune there's tension throughout the game between you and the vessel you're controlling, while in undertale your vessel never expresses any sort of will of its own

[strange cloud]

Yah, I just wanted to mention there is a distinction made at the very end

Because part of undertale is about letting stories go after they’re done

So the disconnect is important for it

[sharp lodge]

the problem is that assumes monsters can absorb human souls at all in deltarune

[rose swallow]

well in deltarune humans and monsters are equals in society

so it makes sense that there hasn't been any mention of anyone eating each other's souls

[strange cloud]

Especially since both have this world’s version of determination and monsters don’t have magic they’re probably equals in strength too

[low surge]

Yeah, should have specified that part is an Undertale thing

There’s a lot more known about how a soul functions in Undertale than Deltarune

[strange cloud]

Human determination and monster magic being weak to strong emotions was the main reason humans were so much stronger

But now monsters have DT, DT serves another purpose and monsters don’t even have magic

[sage needle]

The upstairs section in the library with all the books about raising humans are absolutely going to have some insane Deltarune specific lore reveal in a later chapter

Chapter 6 book will say something crazy like how Humans don't have Souls

[low surge]

I shouldn’t have said they don’t work the same, rather there’s a lot of stuff from Undertale that we haven’t gotten confirmation on. The Soul is a subject of a lot of research in Undertale, whereas it’s this thing only really the player, Kris, and weird fuckers like Spamton know about.

[ripe harbor]

ah btw @low surge (@'d because its stuff) I made some notes a while back on this and I don't think I ever shared.
So
Holiday manor scenes in chapter 4, after you enter the basement, you can listen in on what Susie and Noelle talk about. In order-

• Blood Crushers 2's 'severed hand', which comes to life and starts attacking the movie's protag after hiding in the basement.
• Catti and her interest in the occult, how she gets obssessive about magic systems.
• an AVGN reference swapped to be about an evil bucket with ICE-E's face that tries to kill him.
• The underground(!) levels from Dragon Blazers(!) where the music just 'creepily loops on repeat'
• The Evil Route of Dragon Blazers, and how it was soooo secret and fucked up and evil.

all the while the same slowed down mus_smile bunker noise plays

reminded because I saw a post on the reddit betting on "Friend is a giant hand" theory

if you take that as true, this entire scene is nonstop maybe-Friend stuff. Or its just teenage lesbians bonding.

cat making me crazy

[low surge]

Porque no los dos

[ripe harbor]

HIGH DENSITY friend references

[low surge]

(Also feel free to ping me I don’t mind)

[ripe harbor]

it would be insane foreshadowing if its intended

[low surge]

More hand shit too

[ripe harbor]

literally back to back Severed Hand -> Demonic Cat Magic -> Evil ICE-E -> Dragon Blazers underground levels -> Weird Route

[low surge]

Hand ties into puppet/cat element too

[ripe harbor]

mhm

Cat 'Petters'

and a hand with a trailing tail of circles?

trickery. trickery afoot

[ripe harbor]

I'm not committing to Friendhand yet. I can only assume so many things about a character thats only ambigiously real. But if its the case, and it ties into the 'Nightmare' or 'ICE-E' stuff I fucking called it.

[analog burrow]

Hands and smiles permeate the more mysterious aspects of the game

[ripe harbor]

The Kris hand stuff is honestly the ??? for me

including the shadow crystal

[low surge]

I don’t know if it’s anything, but I wonder if the whole hands thing for Kris is at all related to how the Knight and Mystery Man have holes in their palms?

[analog burrow]

Every secret boss is almost always smiling, FRIEND is always smiling, the vending machine smiles at you, the “garbage noise” is called “mus_smile”

[low surge]

Like is Kris literally going to lose their whole hand, or is it a hole? Do holes in hands mean something?

[ripe harbor]

deeper than this even. I had half a mind earlier to start making a doc lmao

Darkners are very closely associated with smiles specifically

[analog burrow]

This is all clearly pointing to one thing

FRIEND is a big head floating hands boss
||/j||

[low surge]

You gotta dodge its attacks by going into the holes in its hands

[ripe harbor]

The Legend - the Darkner stand in has a prominent smile (and its the only facial feature on either character.)

Dark World explanation - First character to appear and look at (you) is , who also ends that part of the cutscene. As well, Friend's laugh plays as the 'generic room' gets darker.

Mus_Smile is the garbage noise like you said, but its also literally built from a laughter sfx thats been stretched and looped back on itself. It also plays near the Shelter, in Noelle's spooky basement, and in Entry Number 17- where Gaster seems to open a Dark Fountain while explaining how they work.

King, Queen, and Tenna have extremely prominent smiles in their designs, esp during their fights (Queen's is more in her giant mech, tbf). Its as consistent of a trait as their lack of eyes - in Tenna's case, his smile is even the first thing that appears as the Dark World forms. The Knight follows this pattern- the Titan doesn't. 🤔

mus_smile being garbage noise and also