Undertale and Deltarune

[ripe harbor]

I think about this with ||How the Spawns (and maybe the titan?) act||

[inland hare]

in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni

[ripe harbor]

||like it literally dissolves them to run towards it, but they head to noise and light while you get flavor text like "When did you start becoming yourself?"||

[inland hare]

yeah

||like moths diving into flame, titanspawn dives at you, the very thing that dissolves them into nothing||

so holy ||might be darkness that desires the light||

[dense cargo]

What enemies use the Holy element?

[inland hare]

nothing

no enemies use the Holy type

[ripe harbor]

I havent checked the files idk if any of the new ones connect to it

hmm

[inland hare]

no enemies so far use the holy type

maybe in the future

[ripe harbor]

you'd assume at least some of the bullets would use the electric part though, right?

[inland hare]

nope

no electric damage either

[dense cargo]

||the wiki does say some of Zapper's bullets do||

[ripe harbor]

Like ||Tenna actually straight up sends little thunderbolts to you. Do you think its intentional he doesn't do Electric damage, or doesnt just because you can't get any way to interact with it yet||

[inland hare]

the skymatle supposedly protects again holy/electric damage

[dense cargo]

||And it grants resistance to some of zapper's attacks, apparently||

[ripe harbor]

the association with holy to the sky is at least a point towards it being light imo

[dense cargo]

||Thus proving that Zapper is the Angel||

[inland hare]

well obviously

[dense cargo]

||And also therefore ICE-E||

||But more seriously, I don't know how much we can interpret from this, considering the Sky Mantle is unused||

[ripe harbor]

true

though I think Lightning/Holy is probably a real elemental pair

[inland hare]

we gotta be fighting some angel themed enemies in the future right

[dense cargo]

||Then again, nobody's ever avoided looking at all the other unused stuff in the game. like Noelle's reactions to equipment in chapter 3-4||

[inland hare]

that throws lightning bolts at you

[ripe harbor]

||especially after 'Dark/Star', one of the others named in the QnA sweepstakes thing about them, is directly in the game now||

Puppet / Cat still's

mostly because they are the two most unconnected elements of any of the hinted pairs. Whats the intended parallel?

[inland hare]

well

we have a puppet

who's a cat

and cats are the secret rulers of he world

who pulls all the strings

[ripe harbor]

with all the alice and wonderland vibes, I think it might unironically be 'they both smile'

[inland hare]

and cats really love balls of yarn

which is made of strings

[ripe harbor]

Seam supports that a bit

talks about stitching a lot

[inland hare]

and cats have claws

like how puppets have hidden knives

[dense cargo]

||It's gotta be FRIEND related right?||

[ripe harbor]

so, what... Element 6 is about how things are put together? Underlying patterns?

[ripe harbor]

see thats why it makes me go 😵‍💫. Its hard to read into how much of the element might be based on a mysterious character who's only maybe-probably a cat.

[ripe harbor]

duplicity was another angle I was thinking of

[inland hare]

have we tried going pspspspspsp at a random corner of a dark world yet

[ripe harbor]

cats are sneaky? Puppets are a false face?

[dense cargo]

||Them being a cat, or cat-related is one of the few certain things about them||

[ripe harbor]

||The 1-1 'its literally the Chesire Cat' and its face on all the little cats means its near guaranteed, yeah.||

[dense cargo]

||They also do just show up with Cat ears in the Mantle fight||

[ripe harbor]

is the Garbage Noise in DR still filenamed mus_smile?

it is

||and the Odd Controller in 3 is given near that suspicious smile vending machine by someone who you don't know is there, the friend sprite is mostly its giant smile, spamton is doing All That, entry 17's theme is titled 'smile', plays near the bunker (where some lost children may have followed a tail) & this element is Element 6||

[low surge]

Are there new lines in the UNUSED script? Feel like I haven’t seen anyone mention it

[ripe harbor]

there are

one sec

||```What is this place, anyway...?
How did I get here?
... as if I haven't asked that question a billion times already.

I...
I always did have that nightmare.
Walking into the darkness,
With the light shining from the doorway...
Then the door slams behind me.
And everything goes black.

... is this that nightmare?

... or was everything else a dream? || ^ chapter 3 ||I'm starting to lose track of the time.

Has it been days? Hours?
If someone told me it's been years, I might believe them...

Before, the sun came up,
And so many wonderful things happened that made time meaningful.
Things like breakfast, or late night TV...

In this place,
I don't eat or drink anymore.
I can't tell if I'm awake or dreaming.
I can't even tell if I'm dead or alive.
It's just nothing but pitch black silence.

... except for the noise.
The scratching noise I sometimes hear...

This sounds crazy, but even though no one can hear me,
When I hear that noise, I feel like someone's listening.
Anyone, if you're there... thank you. ```||
^ chapter 4

[foggy python]

||with your heart as the ark...||

[low surge]

|| Toby what the fuck man ||

|| the thank you at the end what did he mean by this ||

|| I’ve been thinking/wondering, what happens to a Lightner that spends too long in the dark world? Maybe this is it? It’s at least one of my theories on if Dess is the Knight why she’s like that in the Dark World, corrupted somehow. Maybe also why she would take Undyne so fast, can’t be outside for long? ||

[ripe harbor]

||At least some of the phone call dialogue implies it might be related to a lack of the Soul, either directly or just that whoever is on the phone knows theres no way to close a Dark Fountain without one so lacking a soul means you end up trapped.||

[sharp lodge]

||it would explain why the knight is so weird. none of the other lightners are capable of transforming the way the knight does||

||and frankly neither of the other holiday knight theories have a really satisfying answer for why they're so weird||

[low surge]

|| The fact they look like a titan I feel is important ||

[dense cargo]

||You know, I've been thinking that Dess probably didn't get end up in a regular Dark World, but maybe something beyond that?||

||If she is the UNUSED character, it doesn't seem like she is/was trapped in just a regular dark world||

[low surge]

|| My one friend had a totally crackpot idea: the Knight is the result of someone trying to open a fountain within themselves. He has no explanation it just came to him in a dream ||

[dense cargo]

I'm willing to accept this with no qualifications

[low surge]

|| Yeah, that’s one of the parts I like and hope is still viable from Device Theory. She’s trapped (or at least was) in some interstitial space ||

[dense cargo]

||She wouldn't be the first, we know people can get "lost" outside of the boundries of the normal light and dark worlds||

||Then again, unlike all those other characters, people still remember Dess, very much so||

[low surge]

|| Who else besides Gaster? ||

[dense cargo]

||All of the Goners, and the Man (if he isn't Gaster)||

[low surge]

Ah right

[dense cargo]

||Also the characters in Mancountry I think||

[low surge]

|| The Goners are weird, like what even are they? Just being followers of Gaster doesn’t really explain why they’re so weird or how (some) just vanish. Like it can’t just be that they’re people that remember Gaster right? It’s gotta be more. I’ve seen some people speculate that they’re actual pieces of Gaster. ||
|| As for the Man I’m of the opinion he’s a piece of Gaster. ||

[dense cargo]

||I don't think we have any idea as to where the Goners come from (apart from the game's intro being called GonerMaker). They might be pieces of Gaster, or they might just be random monster who happened to suffer the same fate as him.||

[low surge]

|| which just raises the question for how the FUCK that happened ||

[dense cargo]

Tripped

[low surge]

I don’t imagine shattering yourself across time and space is a particularly easy feat

[dense cargo]

Fell into his creation

[low surge]

Clipped into the backrooms guh?!?!?!?

[inland hare]

He got really into bodybuilding

[low surge]

Gaster look out for the entity noooooooooo

[inland hare]

Started wearing a red cape

And silly armor

[dense cargo]

||If the "Seven Flying Aces" are anything to go by, maybe you just need to get really lost and forgotten?||

[low surge]

Which I guess tracks since only the Goners mention Gaster by name? And Sans has the blasters but that’s it. If you missed the FUN events or didn’t look in the game files you’d never know he existed

But wouldn’t that kind of preclude the person that everyone is always talking about all the time (Dess)?

[dense cargo]

Literally nobody mentions him despite having built the CORE

[low surge]

Bro hit himself with the antimeme

[dense cargo]

||Maybe she was forgotten, but isn't anymore? If she is the Knight, she might not be quite as trapped now (though still fucked up from what happened to her)||

But this is pure speculation

[ripe harbor]

I was talking about the ||egg rooms being 'in between' maybe refering to their state between Light and Dark more than just the two rooms they connect to|| the other day to a friend

||Because the forgotten man and the eggs don't seem to shift between the worlds, and in the chapter 3 egg room Kris' sprite even swaps between overworld and dark world fits||

also

was kind of catching up on some of the extra website pages that happened when I wasn't looking, after these chapters-

||what the hell does Noelle mean she feels like someone else she knows has seen Image_Friend||

[inland hare]

well

||Kris is a known gamer||

[ripe harbor]

tail theory is... real.....?

[inland hare]

a good gamer at that

so reasonably they might also be interested in ||easter egg hunts||

[ripe harbor]

this is just such an ominous line after the context that this sprite is literally exactly the creepy face thing

whats the writing purpose of underlining Kris as having met a strange cat thing before? Whats it hinting at?

doesnt sound like anything good

[low surge]

Whatever the fuck FRIEND is man

[wheat adder]

A friend :3

[low surge]

Remember when people were just like “oh it’s just scary Spamton face”

[low surge]

Watch it actually be though

Everyone expects it to be evil

And really it just is a friend

[wheat adder]

I just wanna know the importance of pink and yellow

[inland hare]

do you think we will actually find dess

or will we have to let her go to fulfill the prophecy

[ripe harbor]

depends

could be both tbh

you 'find' her, she might not come back with you

though maybe she'll always Be With You In The Dark or whatever

[inland hare]

just out of sight

[ripe harbor]

that line was fucking me up earlier

[inland hare]

her ||hand reaching out, pressing against your own||

[ripe harbor]

WHO is it. ||its gotta be Dess, right? Does that mean its the Knight too, or is something wacky going on?||

[inland hare]

who knows

[ripe harbor]

whoever it is,

||I get the vibe they want the prophecy to keep going, given the rooms context||

||They push you back towards reading it along. Theres no other way you are allowed to go.||

[inland hare]

only toby fox can fill us with horror at the description of a smiling man waving his lunch at you

well shit I didn't collect eggs for any of the chapters except 2

does that mean I have to fight he secret bosses all over again

or do eggs carry over between saves

do you think toby will parody asgore running over dess meme in chapter 5

[lusty cypress]

Or string
Cats play with yarn, puppets have strings

[low surge]

I think we will, as to what state she’s in who can say

[low surge]

“Susie I think you confused sin with legality. Killing the mayor is actually pretty good, that’s gonna get you into heaven.”

[vocal elbow]

"You could be an intern at MTT."

[timber widget]

https://bskyx.app/profile/squidguset.bsky.social/post/3lsdb52hd322k

[foggy python]

i really used to think jevil was as hard as it was going to get.

goddamn.

[foggy python]

https://tenor.com/view/turth-nuke-subway-subway-slammer-truth-gif-14553086513468849421

[tidal fox]

truth slam

[low surge]

They The M

[low surge]

I thought after I suffered through Jevil and then beat Spamton second try that I was hot shit

How wrong I was

[foggy python]

how wrong we were..

[ripe harbor]

I think a really funny setting detail is that the church of hometown has its own Angel faith going on but Actual Real Life Christianity does seem to be a thing in universe

explicitly mentioned that religions with concept of sin and confession exist, the 'Krismas' pun & 1225 as a December Holiday-

its just kinda funny

how many saints were human and how many were fursonas? we'll never know

do you think the in-universe Deltarune Pope played Asriel's in-universe Undertale demo he's working on in college

[lusty cypress]

The pope was asriel's fratbro

[inland hare]

unless of course

the entire hometown is something that's written on top of another world

and the references to real world religions and places are just bugs that slipped through

lemme bring the appropriate image

[dense cargo]

Those are just references to the Angel faith holiday of Krismas, which is coincidentally also on the 25th of December.

It has no relation to the Christian holiday of Christmas

[inland hare]

angelmas

does the existence of an angel

imply

existence of a devil?

[dense cargo]

Also every time they mention Christmas in-game it's an accent

[dense cargo]

not necessarily

[sour mesa]

well we did find a jevil

[inland hare]

is it just me or is the desire to Proceed in weird route ||eerily reminiscent to Chara's speech in genocide epilogye||

||Destroy the enemy. Become stronger. Proceed to the next||

[sour mesa]

One of a few things suggesting to me that narrator is the same in both games

[inland hare]

in the previous game

there is a layer of separation between the narrator/chara/the heart and You, the player, I think

there's a lot less of that in Deltarune

the Heart seems to be more directly aligned with You

[strange cloud]

The narrator is weird still tbh

At least for now I think assigning it a specific character doesn’t work super well

[inland hare]

the narrator doesn't go on as weird of a tangent in deltarune either

it's much more... neutral? I think?

[strange cloud]

Just because it’s really inconsistent and lines that imply one thing go against lines that imply another

[inland hare]

yeah

[strange cloud]

Yah, with Undertale we were able to work backwards with NaraChara

[inland hare]

narrator doesn't feel like another character

in deltarune

[strange cloud]

The narrator basically tells us it’s Chara at the end with the “My bed” and “my knife” lines

[inland hare]

yeah

[strange cloud]

And the rest of the narration lines up with that

[strange cloud]

Yah, I don’t think it is this time

[inland hare]

not so much in deltarune

[strange cloud]

There’s to many weird moments that don’t make sense if the narrator is a specific character

[inland hare]

yeah that's how I feel

I think Toby might be trying specifically to avoid like

creating a character that players feel like they can shunt player agency towards

You are the Heart end. Your choices are yours. End of discussion

[strange cloud]

Yah, we don’t really have a chara this time

Someone who people think is the reason for the stuff we do

Even if they’re not

Kris gets confused with that a lot but also like, clearly isn’t for anyone paying attention

[wheat adder]

The one interesting thing about narration in Deltarune is the weird non pattern of narration done with and without parentheses

And from a pattern in other parts of the game, text in parentheses indicates thought

[strange cloud]

Yah seriously

What’s up with that?

There’s no pattern I’ve been able to notice

[inland hare]

honestly i have no idea

maybe there are multiple narrators 😛

[wheat adder]

I think the parenthesis narration is Kris thoughts

[strange cloud]

Hell the Andrew Cunningham video where he went over 80% of the narrator from chapters 1 and 2 couldn’t find a pattern

[inland hare]

people trying to find chara in deltarune rn

[wheat adder]

I don't think Chara is in Deltarune

[inland hare]

me neither

either that or Kris is this world's version of chara anyways 🤷

just named differently? For some reason?

[strange cloud]

I hope we see a weird looking human at the festival, they introduce themselves as Chara and then they’re never mentioned again

[lusty cypress]

Narrator is sloppy

[wheat adder]

I still think Deltarune shares a heavy narrative undertone with Undertale, that being a narrative that's pretty much marked by the absence of some characters. I.e. Chara and Asriel in UT and ||Dess and Asriel in DR||

[strange cloud]

(Also legitimately I think if we ever do meet the DR version of Chara they’d probably just be a friend Asriel made at college)

[inland hare]

imagine if Asriel comes back to town with Chara in tow

[wheat adder]

The interesting thing is, why is papyrus also "missing". Where the heck is papyrus

[inland hare]

just rolling up in a red sports car (bed)

[wheat adder]

Why does it feel like he'll be important

[inland hare]

well

[wheat adder]

Just because

He's not there

[strange cloud]

Depressed

[inland hare]

Papyrus has a weird connection with goners

have you noticced?

[wheat adder]

No?

[inland hare]

he's the only person you can't call anymore on your cell in the presence of a goner

the phone refuses to turn on if you try to call papyrus

can totally call toriel though

[wheat adder]

Huh

[inland hare]

it's a factoid that I find very

very

interesting

papyrus also notably doesn't like the CORE

a place where Gaster supposedly got shattered

[wheat adder]

I mean we all know there's some connection between Sans, Papyrus and Gaster

[inland hare]

yeah i suppose that's true

[wheat adder]

After all, It's Wing Dings Gaster

[inland hare]

wonder if the connection is

EVER

going to get explained

or if it's just gonna be endlessly teased

[wheat adder]

I can hope

[velvet olive]

aren't they made of dark candy (which r fruits)

[strange cloud]

Also Gaster blasters

[inland hare]

end of deltarune is just Asriel rolling up into town with Chara and being like "Hey mom, sibling, I have a theyfriend now."

[inland hare]

huh.

i assumed they are made of meat because noelle doesn't like them

[ripe harbor]

the sin one explicitly can't be!

unless theres multiple interpreations of doctrine

and some versions of the prophecy-faith split on conception of sin

🤔

[inland hare]

Kris already sinned enough for the rest of the Monsterkind combined

What if we see sans in the dark world

And he’s literally unchanged from his overworld sprite

[lusty cypress]

Sans: I long lost my dreams and creativity, kids

[inland hare]

Still chuckling at the revelation in Please Read me that the Lich is ||a girl||

[sharp lodge]

||https://www.tumblr.com/defenestrated-ape/787006626019328000/guys-i-mightve-figured-something-out-im-pretty?source=share||

chapter 3 spoilers||if you pitch noelle's scream audio down it kinda sounds like the knight's roar||

[lusty cypress]

Lich?

[loud fulcrum]

||Ohhhhh shit. I am a Dess = Knight Truther forever now||

[dense cargo]

||Add that to the pile||

[inland hare]

Wrong thread sorry

[lusty cypress]

What thread was it?

[inland hare]

For book club

[low surge]

Does anyone have a good Player Angel resource?

[low surge]

[sharp lodge]

what the fuuuuck

[inland hare]

Well sans is a cop

[velvet olive]

NOOO

[lusty scarab]

https://youtu.be/JfYM2DwHqTU?si=Yv217bjN9Kg8QGsU

[strange cloud]

So like, with the idea of the characters being their most heroic during the weird route

I’m kinda wondering if Carol is gonna show off a more loving side during it

[low surge]

It’s chapter 7, we’re down to the wire. Kris and Ralsei are down, Susie is bleeding out. The knight raises its black knife to sacrifice Noelle and summon the Angels Heaven. All is lost, when…

https://tenor.com/view/twin-peaks-twin-peaks-the-return-twin-peaks-series-part16-kyle-maclachlan-gif-9683745

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9erLsEHAZRI&pp=ygUVd2VsY29tZSB0byB0aGUganVuZ2xl

What are the odds Toby references the truck. Like I doubt he’s gonna have a meme play a central role but you think there’s at least gonna be a funny text when interacting with the truck

[golden haven]

Toriel has a type....?

[low surge]

We gotta stop goat mom from dating

Nothing good comes from this

[low surge]

Kris hitting the whip is insane

[ripe harbor]

"Soul..... YOU aren't welcome anytime!"
(Jinglovania starts playing)

[ripe harbor]

after the Noelle Invader Zim Gir wallpaper I'd believe anything

Its gotta be funny to have this story planned out for years with Dess as this mysterious, hinted in ARGs and newsletters tragic figure

and the first chapters that more explicitly hammer out her deal for the average player leads to a meme where her fan design is run over by a truck lmao

maybe 'surreal' more than funny

[low surge]

Toby has been subjected to continual psychic damage since the moment he looked at a computer

[velvet olive]

he seems to thrive in this environment tbh

[low surge]

He’s about this life

He’s been in the mix since day one

Gotta respect him

All the shipping content I’m seeing man we really are back aren’t we chat

[velvet olive]

ch 5 spoilers

(might actually be spoilers but we don't, know, for what chapter to mark it for so)

[low surge]

I really need Asgore to beat the bum allegations in chapter 5

[low surge]

By @KennK11184 on Twitter

[lusty cypress]

Peak

[lusty cypress]

Asgore does like in Aliens
"Get away from them, you bitch"

Oh, truck turning into a mech in the dark world

Specially if Kris when younger liked to pretend that big truck was a robot

[golden haven]

Kris doing the Optimum Pride bit

[lusty cypress]

We get a second punch out segment

And learn Asgore is cracked at old videogames

[amber jolt]

ERH EH AH ERH URHHH

[lusty cypress]

You alright buddy?

[golden haven]

Its the Optimum Pride bit

[amber jolt]

PUTANG INA, OPTIMUM PRIDE /ref

[golden haven]

https://tenor.com/view/optimum_pride-gif-24004505

[tropic valve]

https://youtu.be/PB57pAV9xLk?si=ppu5c_7wFZBPrpFF

[lusty cypress]

Hey the track for C3 ||the knight popping up is called breath.||

[crystal shale]

https://bsky.app/profile/fangamer.com/post/3lsw6waf3ys26

Fangamer (@fangamer.com)

Our first wave of new DELTARUNE merch is here!

Shirts, pins, and two new Ralsei costumes are live! Plus you can sign up now to be notified as soon as our four upcoming figurines are available: www.fangamer.com/collections/...

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Bluesky · Jul 1, 2025, 5:10 PM

[foggy python]

i wonder what it'd be like to play deltarune without having ever seen anything from undertale

which is next to impossible

[golden haven]

I played the demo before playing undertale

[foggy python]

🔎

[crystal shale]

I feel like Deltarune exists in conversation with Undertale

Its not required but I think a lot of the stuff in Deltarune exists in relation to Undertale

Dunno how to describe it

[lusty cypress]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Duh5-YgGJQ
The comments lol
"Cristiano, Susanna e Raimundo"
I'd change Christiano since it's a more masculine name
Hm, the use of "e" ending doesn't work in this case cause "Cristiane" exists as a feminine name

[wheat adder]

Portuguese doesn't have gender neutral

Is the issue

[lusty cypress]

Well, people are trying to add it

The "e" ending is often used, "u" when it doesn't work

Chris is just a difficult name to make neutral

C4 extra boss, forró
||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRoODp-FP1M||

[delicate cave]

even in English, "Chris" is pretty masculine. Kris is gender neutral (in...Greek, apparently?), but obviously that doesn't help with a lot of people seeing the cognate + short hair and going 👉 boy

[wheat adder]

The "u" doesn't work because in Portuguese "o" in the end of words already sounds like "u"

It would be purely grammatical

[lusty cypress]

"Elu"

[wheat adder]

Ah right

[lusty cypress]

Since ele is already masculine

Anyway, would love a Festa Junina in deltarune

[inland hare]

Anyways

Clearly the knight is actually papyrus

[wheat adder]

The Knight is actually my mom sorry guys

[lunar saffron]

anyway, i just ran over bigfoot. he's dead now. what the fuck do i do

[inland hare]

I have proof

See

Knight loves hiding out in closets

You know what the closet is a natural habitat for?

That’s right

Skeletons

[lunar saffron]

and gay people though, so it HAS to be julia's mom

[inland hare]

btw have you noticed

that basically every computer in the town is left handed

which might mean

lefthandedness might just be really common among monsters

Lmfao (end of chapter 4 spoiler)

[ripe harbor]

hmm, the ||thing in the story so far that most direction matches the 'Ring of Heaven's Call' prophecy art is straight up just the Titan's face, isn't it.||

||Its ambigious enough that it could really be anything eventually tbh. Hands around a physical ring, winged halo, w/e. But its another bit about the Titan.||

[timber widget]

||We are banishing the Angel's Heaven||

[lusty cypress]

"Happy pride"
Lots of bullets

[inland hare]

I can’t believe the truck was run over by Dess

[inland hare]

The true culprit

Miqo’tem

[restive comet]

||I kinda have a funny idea of when the class's group project comes around and Kris's group comes empty handed, Susie improvises by opening a Dark World in the middle of the classroom||

[lusty cypress]

Lol, I'd see Kris doing that then admitting they panicked

[loud fulcrum]

Chap 3 + 4 spoilers: ||https://youtu.be/YtNkhb9OnVU?si=wF4pQCsH6Ii9hT4p||

[low surge]

|| The bad part of the prophecy is they have to actually do their project ||

[sharp lodge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuAyELEKrYY

this reminds me i need to watch more david lynch stuff
been meaning to for a long time but i haven't done it

[ripe harbor]

||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiypNMJ8A||

Chapter 3 Secret, musical thing

need to speed it up by 666(x2)% to hear the original
nice

[strange cloud]

DEVICE THEORY UNDEFEATED

WE’RE MAKING A BOX WITH THIS ONE

[ripe harbor]

I still need to go back to those now that anything past the first video is released lol

[low surge]

I mean doesn’t device theory have a major hole in it since || a dark fountain inside a dark world spawns a titan? I mean we do got metafictional things going on but not really in the same sense Device Theory proposed ||

[ripe harbor]

it was cooking something for sure

[low surge]

I still agree with a lot of its points still

[ripe harbor]

idk what its conclusions were

[low surge]

Molly I await your next 10 hour epic

[ripe harbor]

I mostly remember it for poking at the Gaster-y parts of the save menu in chapter 1 and beyond

[low surge]

That was a major focus of it yes

[strange cloud]

I mean like, 1 incorrect predication in an otherwise extremely accurate theory is still really good

[low surge]

Fair fair

[strange cloud]

Essentially that Deltarune is a game about layers of fiction, that we’re connected into those layers of fiction via the device that is the first layer of fiction, the exe itself.

The light world is the next layer, with the dark world under that, and something even darker under that. We got another layer with the ||8 bit mini games in chapter 3||

[ripe harbor]

I dont think its an incorrect idea that theres something 'underneath' the dark worlds, even post 3+4

idk if it is the case, but you can definitely argue for it with the weird ||Titan-eye related stones and strange wobbly things you can find on the edges of Castle Town or TV world||, or the ||Fight against the Titan - a living Dark-Fountain - having an OST named 'Guardian'. Its a fair read to assume its the Guardian, and ask what it's 'Guarding'||

not sure its nested so much a digging into the foundations? The word 'Roots' also keeps showing up in these secret spots

Digital Roots, Bit Roots, the Roots ||Prophecy||

[strange cloud]

Yah, ||and rn we already have the idea that the deeper layers of fiction can now affect the higher layers. We got the shadow mantle from inside the Zelda game, the dark shard exists as itself in the light world||

[ripe harbor]

and ||Gerson himself makes the most direct reference to the prophecy as relating to storytelling of any secret boss||

[inland hare]

Which means we a a re just one step away from Kris crawling out of our screen to stab us ofc

[ripe harbor]

actually 3 + 4 together both involve a couple mention of in-universe media based on the story of the prophecy

[strange cloud]

Toby will make a memetic kill image

[ripe harbor]

if you stab your computer screen with enough Determination you can end up just like Onion-San trust 🙏

plus theres a lot of association with deepness to Dark Worlds

jumping down into them, the pure fountain as 'deepest' dark, hell's roar from 'the depths', ||The prophecy mentioning the Dark World(s) growing underneath the Light World||

[foggy python]

||genius hack to make your ominous ambiance scenes, just slow a track down by a bunch||

[ripe harbor]

though I think I see it more as an inverted mirror than a bunch of layers, I think

[lusty cypress]

||Plus mentions a ringing from the depths||

[low surge]

Tricky Tony does it again folks

[ripe harbor]

& for the ||Titans themselves, imo they do act exactly how I'd expect too much Darkness disconnected from the 'real' world to act. Its just formless shifting shadows detached from any light world counterpart that endlessly seek out light and noise.||

||Life without Identity?||

its like how you can't have shadows in pitch-black darkness, you need the definition for the shapes to mean anything

given all the liquid, flowing + slithering, and ||general living little goobers the dark's been doing in the last couple chapters||
||I've been wondering if theres something to Ice as its inverse, freezing things static in place||

||Especially with the general connections the Holidays and especially Noelle have to the cold, and how its connected to living trapped in the past by Susie.||

idk I'll need to keep thinking on it to make any solid take I think

[lusty cypress]

||Primordial sea of life||

[ripe harbor]

|| , but I've also been thinking about it because Noelle has too much angel stuff for me to really ignore even on non-weird routes. Shes gotta be involved in a major upcoming way somehow. So what would a major antagonist Noelle even mean?||

so I was thinking about what might be said with Ice and Snow

||interestingly TV World's final bit also has quite a bit of snow, and Tenna's also the character most wrapped up in nostalgia and a desire to live every day the same||

If darkness makes inanimate things start to live, and too much darkness starts 'spawning', maybe Ice relates to going the other direction.

Even living things stop moving with too much

[lusty cypress]

||Interesting. Specially with asgore trying to keep his flowers alive in this climate||

||I thought the stagnation for asgore's world would be choking vines everywhere, specially due to some overgrowth in his shop
But cold and ice would be fitting too||

[low surge]

|| god chapter 5 is gonna be depressing as fuck isn’t it ||

[lusty cypress]

||Asgore fucking dies in the weird route||

[low surge]

|| while I have no doubt there’s gonna be fun and funny moments, especially after chapter 4 I imagine the tone will be a bit more somber. Less hey fun adventure where we just so happen to also be saving the world I guess. Plus Dreemur family drama on full display. ||

|| I really hope Tori shows up or we get a big scene with her and Asgore soon. I was hoping he’d be in chapter 3 or maybe even 4 (since he comes to the church at night). ||

|| I do wonder if this chapter will deal more directly with Toriel and Asgore’s divorce if Kris is going to be a lot more resistant. They go out of their way to minimize how much we know about their family, especially the messier details. ||

[delicate cave]

He gets ||double divorced||

[sharp lodge]

https://i.redd.it/4e37waj9ehaf1.png

https://radicaldreemurrs.tumblr.com/post/787638294203727872

[rain barn]

makes me think ||someone should make a Noelle video set to Return to Oblivion from FFXIV||

[low surge]

I really need someone to make an edit of that gif of Mahito getting jumped by Yuji and Nanami but it’s Kris and the Soul piecing up Sans

[low surge]

How long do you think the Castle Town dark fountain has existed? It being in the supply closet that is clearly still in use makes me think it can’t really be more than a few days old.

[sour mesa]

recently i've been thinking it may not have emerged like the others

It existed invisibly/elsewhere and the Knight accidentally called it up alongside the classroom fountain

and now it's just stuck around

[low surge]

It’s certainly crossed my mind, Ralsei talks about how it maintains the balance between light and dark

Time works different in the Dark Worlds (Ralsei acts like you’ve been gone for a while at the start of chapter 2) but i wonder how much that skews his perception of how long he’s been alone.

[strange cloud]

Actually I’m not super sure about that anymore. The fact we can go back and forth during the hometown segments with no noticeable changes in how time flows makes me think that line was just there because Ralsei is extremely fucking lonely

Like he was all alone waiting for them to come back

[low surge]

I mean fair

If you’ve never had friends before, or any real connections at all, any time they’re away is long in your frame of reference

[vocal elbow]

Could also have just been a joke about how long it took between Chapter 1 and 2's release days.

[strange cloud]

Also that

[low surge]

Dog logic in essence

[sour mesa]

It's not unusual for time to be inconsistent in Narnia/fairyland type setups

Where you can be gone much longer or shorter than you think

Even just going back and forth between the same worlds

[strange cloud]

I guess so big Susie and Kris go in and out of the dark worlds pretty regularly with no real issues

Like, they’re in the chapter 4 dark world long enough it’s night time

If you go back to castle town at the end, it’s now night time there too

When it was daytime when you go there during the daytime

If that makes sense

[ripe harbor]

I think time works in Dark Worlds the same way it works in dreams

how long it feels and how much stuff happens doesn't match up to how much time passed

[strange cloud]

Yah I think that makes sense

Dark worlds are compared to dreams constantly

[ripe harbor]

its not consistently shorter or longer or any of that, and trying to measure it won't catch the inconsistencies

[strange cloud]

I think dream logic makes more sense then narnia logic

Either way I doubt Ralsei experienced actual years between chapters 1 and 2

Especially since no other darkner references time like that

[ripe harbor]

ya I think it was probably a dev joke tbh

like sans saying you might see his brother in 2 days or 2 years while winking

[strange cloud]

Yah

[fluid path]

ch3 super boss ||https://youtu.be/1GYsiRqMaiM||

[ripe harbor]

😭

my fuckin' DEVICE

■■■■■■'s gonna be pissed

[low surge]

|| This is what it feels like fighting them for the 23rd time (source: me) ||

[low surge]

Look what the did to my mans shit tho

[lunar saffron]

3. They are all lesbians

[foggy python]

User girls kissing you may be onto something

[foggy python]

i should kick that fraud's ass again

[strange cloud]

From @ honkadoi on Twitter

Huh

Why did it ping someone

Ok turns out if you even partially write someone’s discord username it’ll still ping them even if the rest of the word is something else

[lusty cypress]

Is it ralsei looking like a Dreemurr?

[strange cloud]

If you’re reading this, I’m sorry

[strange cloud]

That and him maybe being Kris’s old fursona

[inland hare]

Well Noelle says Ralsei looks exactly like younger Asriel

That it kinda freaked her out when she saw him

[strange cloud]

Yah

Kris points out differences but it’s clear that like, they’re close

The details are off but they look really similar

[low surge]

love their stuff kralsei’s strongest soldier

[strange cloud]

Truly

There are some artist which I associate with specific ships

If Goomy is Kriselle’s strongest soldier, Honkadoi is Kralsei’s strongest soldier

[low surge]

I’m usually not big into that kind of stuff but a lot of it is really cute I’m all here for it

[lusty cypress]

Just waiting for wicabel fanart

Oh my god
What if Pizzapants' fake girlfriend becomes a darkner

[golden haven]

oh noooo

[strange cloud]

I could not handle Pizzapants becoming plot relevant tbh

[low surge]

We getting truly incomprehensible ships and so much fun and cute art (ch4 spoiler) || meanwhile Soriel has seemingly tanked in the popular fandom at least far as I’ve seen ||

Pizzapants knight

[ripe harbor]

and also textually like Asriel to everybody who's seen both but Kris

[low surge]

It’s happening folks

Ice e dark world

Mark my words

[strange cloud]

Nah nah, invest in Soriel stocks now

It’s taking a dip

But mark my words

[low surge]

Sell while you still can

Don’t be a bag holder

[strange cloud]

It’s gonna get big when chapter 5 releases

[ripe harbor]

way back when chapter 2 first dropped he was a semi-joke answer for who Mike was

sort of like Papyrus Knight was?

[strange cloud]

We will be swimming in cute art

Sans will be the father who stepped up

Mark my fucking words

until he’s like, teleported to undertale or something

[low surge]

|| Do you think Blue Ears is gonna catch feelings for Pizzapants and then when he confesses it’s gonna be like that one diary of a wimpy kid meme where he’s like “I’m not gay Greg” ||

Nah Sans is a bum I’m calling it now

[strange cloud]

First ever canon straight character in UTDR

[low surge]

Real

[strange cloud]

You’re gonna eat your words when he carries the light gang in the chapter 5 dark world

[lusty cypress]

Pizzapants: Actually I'm gay. Cause I'm a woman

[low surge]

I’ll soak my Ralsei plush in milk and slam him against the wall

[amber jolt]

goot lord

[lusty cypress]

Him dodging asgore's bullets
It's gonna be like those FNF songs where some notes are bullets

[amber jolt]

yeah

😭

[ripe harbor]

saw this on twitter and it got me. They did not mean to do it either

[amber jolt]

major "HIS PRONOUNS ARE THEY/THEM" energy

[ripe harbor]

half the responses were just them apologizing and the other half wa- yeah lmao

[lusty cypress]

God gonna be so funny if berdly transitions
Ralsei: I'm the only guy here now
Also the fandom reaction

[ripe harbor]

all the Trouble Dingle posting has been getting me

[low surge]

Glad Azzy and Dess are stoners in the fandom mindsphere

“Unique leaves” didn’t catch that at first

[strange cloud]

Berdly is great but I still can’t get over the actual take I saw that he’s a fucking chaser because all the people he thinks has a crush on him are trans or GNC

[ripe harbor]

I think its critical to both of their characters that they are also kinda lame-dorky about it

which doesn't make them not sometimes cool

but they aren't cool cool, you know what I mean

[low surge]

Yeah, absolutely

[lusty cypress]

Headcanon that Noelle doesn't deal well with smoke nor certain smells
So Dess always was careful with keeping her smoking far from her
One day she got a scare from her getting home early and fell out of the window trying to air out the smoke
So Carol found out about the weed

[ripe harbor]

thats also why this Asriel is a soulful design

this is what he would look like spiritually to me after going to college and chilling out for a bit

[ripe harbor]

0% chance Rudy didn't smoke at least when he was younger though

[lusty cypress]

Rudy is fine with it

Carol would have been angrier in her initial reaction, but Dess was hurt and had been concerned for her sister

[inland hare]

Lmfaooooooo ||https://youtube.com/shorts/TDb7yigde14?si=fPIaYSeYj3jOQOgi|| chapter 4 unique dialogue

[inland hare]

So you are saying he’s toriel’s type?

[low surge]

He’s gonna beat the allegations

He has to

Asgore just has to pop out once

Its all i need my goat can’t be washed like this

[lusty cypress]

The important thing is that Jitterbug is a variant on spider dance
Which may have a connection to spider lore in deltarune

[inland hare]

But that would mean he’s not a bum

And that would mean he’s not Asgore

And that would mean he’s an imposter

[dense cargo]

There's spider lore?

[inland hare]

And must now be shoved into the lava pool

[low surge]

He’s just gotta style on these teenagers once please

[ripe harbor]

asgore
bum

sorry I got distracted

did you say something

[lusty cypress]

In undertale spiders and ghosts had similar leitmotifs
The fact the song in deltarune has bug in the name must be significant

[ripe harbor]

ZAMN tori fumbled THIS?!?!?

[low surge]

Tori has a type and it’s large kings

[ripe harbor]

wasnt it just the miniboss theme for the ghosts and muffet yoinked it too

[lethal ferry]

fun fact
because december is the 12th calendar month in the deltarune universe, it is extremely likely that Julius Ceaser is a canon historical figure.

is Deltarune!Caesar a human or a monster

[ripe harbor]

she was one of the KS reward characters, yeah?

[low surge]

I wonder if Muffet is gonna show up at all

[dense cargo]

That's true. Ch 3 ||It is also interesting that the one chapter in which having the purple soul mode show up didn't have it at all||

[ripe harbor]

dont think so because she wasn't an original character

[low surge]

Damn rip

[dense cargo]

oh yeah

[low surge]

I totally forgot that

[ripe harbor]

she would've been fun though

[lusty cypress]

I know, but I like joking spiders are important

"Only spiders become ghosts on death"

[vestal owl]

so funny thing. I actually got this my first go around by accident. so ||I did not experience the "YOU are always welcome here" until I saw someone post about it elsewhere||

[inland hare]

I like how she does a ||long long pause||

As if ||she really wanted to say something important but decided Santa was just too annoying||

[strange cloud]

I feel like every few tweets about Deltarune are a series of unconnected screenshots with the poster saying “FINALLY IT ALL MAKES SENSE” and then never elaborate on what theory they’re talking about

[ripe harbor]

its all making sense?

I'm over here like

I can't even fully trust half the characters on screen at any time besides Susie

Theres multiple overlapping conspiracies and hidden agendas between multiple people who know about the Soul and explicitly want to keep it / me / us from getting details on anything. Theres a whole bunch of Proper Nouns and a strict prophecy we don't even get to see yet.

I'm just along for the ride & the shadow crystals & susie's idea

[inland hare]

Our only friend

Is Susie

[dense cargo]

We can not even imagine all the things Lancer is hiding

[ripe harbor]

I think it was actually mostly salsa

but its a lot of salsa

[lusty cypress]

Lancer would totally know important stuff but not that it's important

[dense cargo]

Rouxls thinks he knows important secrets, but doesn't

[lusty cypress]

I wonder the mechanism of the prophecy still
Someone just posted a new video on timeloop theory

[lusty cypress]

Thinking of whether it's some imposition done through how light and dark work

[lusty cypress]

Oh, back on chapter 5 speculation
||So we have the likely themes of ice and glass for Asgore's stagnation
Maybe we'll have him get a big scene of shattering something, like how he shattered the mercy button in undertale, or was waiting to break the barrier.
Also, we might have a mechanic for thawing stuff and helping the flowers||
Optimum pride theory stronger ||Use the engine for thawing||
@ripe harbor

[crimson ocean]

finally got on this shit after putting it off, im not a crier truly, but the end of 4 got me

now im Δpilled once more

[lusty cypress]

Also could fit ||Gerson's line about a field burning from the flames of jealousy||

[strange cloud]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-annoyed-friend-image-friend-deltarune-gif-2709353506166487863

[lusty cypress]

||But of course, if fire cuts off the past
Whose jealousy is it?||

[ripe harbor]

imo its actually not too hard to break entirely, assuming losing battles or the soul breaking would derail it?

In the old Ralsei tutorial your party member's HP was actually referred to as their 'Fate'

Its not the only way things can go, but it seems to be the only path forward?

^ old ralsei tutorial text about the Soul

^ final release version

I remember seeing this years ago and it struck out to me then

because 'HP = Fate' is an interesting description given the prophecy buisness, even if it was cut

had me wondering if its still the general intent, even if the wording's changed

the issue seems to be that every ending that isn't the prophecy is the world being covered in darkness - unless you're one of those people that thinks the 'one ending' of Deltarune is the world being covered in darkness anyway

then idk

and this isn't even bringing in any meta game design elements where you could start literally arguing about games only having a set path or whatever, and ceasing to exist when not being played

[inland hare]

No matter what the world is going to be saved from being covered in darkness

[ripe harbor]

In universe maybe you could come up with a million wacky ideas for how to progress, but you playing the game needs to hit the switch to open the door

[inland hare]

It’s just the how

[timber widget]

Through, if the prophecy is to be believed, some manner of tragedy

[ripe harbor]

Not without the soul, though

and it does very much crack in game overs

[inland hare]

Reminds me of the time when a guy tried to cheat the wish granting artifact that grants wishes but hits you with extremem amount of misfortune too

By directly wishing for extreme amount of misfortune

Artifact : “LOGIC ERROR”

[ripe harbor]

2x Misfortune + 3 day blinding stew

basically I just think its possible to 'fail' the prophecy more than avert it rn

If the world is to be saved: Prophecy ||unless....?||
Otherwise: L bozo

which is honestly some of the worst of both worlds in universe

your life is actually still in danger in every fight you have but you're equally as doomed if you keep going

[timber widget]

It is a little interesting that "the world was covered in darkness" is the end result no matter where and how you die

[ripe harbor]

oh yeah in Chapter 2 the game over screen even has Ralsei asking you to come back

because 'This is not your fate!'

[ripe harbor]

true but ||it makes more sense after 3+4 imo, if theres a big town conspiracy already to bring forth darkness. The soul is currently the only thing we know that can actually close fountains, and theres been an active one in the Shelter for who knows how long people are actively poking into.||

[timber widget]

True

[ripe harbor]

its just a bomb waiting to go off

especially if theres anything weird going on with it

even more 'mundane' fountains like the Librar||b||y and ||Church|| could trigger the Roaring pretty easily!

||if the Shelter is like a super dark fountain or a deeper fountain or whatever, who knows what could happen?||

[timber widget]

Speaking of the chapter 1 game over message, what exactly was King's plan

[inland hare]

Kill all lighteners

For fun

[timber widget]

Just, stand on the sidelines, killing lightners that entered his territory, cheering for the Knight as they did their thing?

[inland hare]

Yeah seems like it

[timber widget]

Wack

[inland hare]

I don’t think he knew about the “roaring will kill all Darkenere” part of the prophecy tbh

[ripe harbor]

I've seen a lot of people talking post Chapter 3 how ||Kris actually directly played with King, so part of his actions were personal in Chapter 1||

[lusty cypress]

||Maybe the prophecy is carved into the timeline
Something outside causality forced onto it to create a guideline for stopping the catastrophe
But doing so made it so the solution only exists within the prophecy, making other possibilities disappear||

[ripe harbor]

||When he's talking about the Lightner's leaving them behind he's at least partially talking about Kris specifically lmao||

[ripe harbor]

He's actually the only one between Queen and Tenna to actually seek a new purpose

He's trying to choose to be The Bad Guy™

[inland hare]

Unironically the freest darkener

[lusty cypress]

So funny that King had such big dreams
But he was the first chapter boss, he's just an abandoned playing card
He talks up the knight and his devotion to it, but doesn't actually know anything about it

[ripe harbor]

I respect that he's sticking to his guns of being kinda mean so far

if he immediately became friends with the Fun Gang it would be like he's just accepting going back to what he was before

[timber widget]

Wait, if both the inevitability of the prophecy and the dual nature of darkners as items is common (?) knowledge, what was Jevil's deal again

[ripe harbor]

He maybe understands how truly inevitable it is?

Ralsei is aware of the Prophecy, but doesn't really have that emotional reaction

||Until chapter 4||

[timber widget]

He began to view the world as a game, somehow.

[ripe harbor]

Though Jevil himself is absolutely also skewed

[timber widget]

Bro turned 90 degrees and saw the fourth wall

[ripe harbor]

despite his obsession with Chaos, his 'random' effects are actually strictly predetermined

it was even lampshaded during a dev playthrough of his fight

[lusty cypress]

Toby himself said chaos is order we don't understand

[ripe harbor]

Chaos is just a pattern you can't see, order underlines everything

mhm

despite how often Freedom appears as a word, the secret bosses are almost equally about meaning tbh

and how those intersect

||Like Gerson suggesting you find freedom in creating your own meaning, and trying to tell your own story, instead of giving up before you try||

[lusty cypress]

||Gerson's idea of of staining and reinterpreting the prophecy is interesting
The same way dark worlds are illusions overlaid on reality||

[lusty cypress]

Yeah

||Very existential
The deltarune universe is bound by inevitability||

[ripe harbor]

tldr: ||Gerson is Royalty and good for him||

he and Zoss can be friends I think and have a drinking contest or something

[restive comet]

https://youtu.be/0RD50F13Zco?si=nZedlDJP04bDc28L

[tidal fox]

https://www.tpmblr.com/sciencejoe/787186063655550976

[crimson ocean]

trying to imaginie someone who plays the game but hates her, do they even exist

[lunar saffron]

trying to imagine someone who hates her tbh

[strange cloud]

What is her problem with Susie seriously?

Like you talk to anyone else about her and they’re like “wow kris, Susie is pretty mean huh”

And with her she treats her like she killed Jockington

[dense cargo]

She took his hat

[restive comet]

Idk, they might have a history or something

[sour mesa]

She was very actively a bully until like, two days ago

[dense cargo]

And all of her recent character development is not something anyone other than the main characters would know about

[timber widget]

And everyone else is too scared of her to speak more bluntly

[ripe harbor]

and catti is a bit of a drama queen

so she takes her dislike and translates it to "our houses are now enemies. she is the darkness."

https://www.tumblr.com/brixbraxium/787346532408115200/a-quick-theory-on-shadowcrystals

interesting theory

there might be something to this and ||all of them but Gerson doing some weird stuff to their enviroment on presence alone, with Jevil's 3D carousel, Sneo suddenly manifesting a junk city with his face all over it, and whatever that rainbow dark-fountain thing the Knight brings with them is||

||the stuff on the right, under them||

They're crystals, they bend light - they bend negative light? Maybe the effects in the Dark World bleed a little into bending space generally?

||Chapter 4 shows very clearly how Dark Fountains in even the same place can differ pretty wildly, the Shadow Crystals might allow you to 'tilt' it a bit or something. It matches with what they show you when you look through them.||

[dense cargo]

||Either way it makes sense that Gerson doesn't do those things, since he never uses the Shadow Crystal||

||Though technically the changes to the lighting in Gerson's room could count as "weird stuff"||

[ripe harbor]

yeah ||I dont feel super confident in these reads, especially when the shadow crystals are vague and don't have entirely clear rules or uses yet||

||It'll probably be more clear when its shown what Seam wants to make with them, and what they expect it to do||

Jevil didn't even have a shadow crystal until Seam in chapter 2 said "Yes he did don't worry about it" and took it from you lol

||One of the bosses you get them from has incredibly unclear motivations and even metaphysical status, and the other doesn't use it!||

[dense cargo]

||Either way, it also seems to me that Seam's line about how hard it is to fight an opponent that has one might not necessarily be because they give you power, but possibly because only tough opponents are going to have them||

||The Crystal Holders are "chosen", after all||

[ripe harbor]

||Gerson|| is the first to directly mention a 'someone' putting it in his possession, I think

[dense cargo]

||Jevil very likely also received his that way, I'd say||

[ripe harbor]

||And like with Seams comments on Jevil, this is after or before talking about the Knight in much less vague terms, so I don't think it was the Knight who gave it to him?||

the shadow crystal bosses in general have had a lot of (or maybe just one ) ambigious 'someones' on the edges of the quests

[ripe harbor]

if you would consult the graph

[dense cargo]

||Jevil was the one who told King about the Knight. This doesn't prove that he got the crystal from them though||

[ripe harbor]

theres the 'Strange Someone' who Seam mentions spoke to Jevil and twisted up his (and eventually their) worldviews. Theres the 'someone' that the Addisons imply found Spamton, mentioned again in 3's ||Sword games through Tenna dialogue||, ||the 'somebody' who left the Odd Controller who Kris brings up independently to Ramb||, and the 'somebody' ||who Gerson thinks left the Crystal for him||

and thats not even getting into That Cat and his face also showing up suspiciously more the more shadow crystal stuff you do

||Narratively, it feels like a big part of Tenna and Spamton's relationship in 3 is about confirming that - no, none of TV world knows who was in contact with him either. The identity of Phone Guy is still an actual mystery in the story.||

its tough because ||chapter 4 actually draws a direct "Jevil met with the Knight" through the talk with King you can have||

but this is a really odd way to write about the same character (especially with a text-color!), and the timeline feels real funky ||with the most likely identities of the Knight and their actions||

conclusion: probably Gaster idk

or this thing

which is probably... not? Gaster?

[crystal shale]

friend :3

[fluid path]

friend :3

[ripe harbor]

friend....

[crimson ocean]

Is it not also that its implied she likes noelle and is jelly

That's kinda what I got

[ripe harbor]

what, you never went over to your friends house on a rainy day to get petted

🤨

its just a chill thing for friends to do

[lusty cypress]

Egg hunter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKJnHRvmxuY

[ripe harbor]

everyone always asks 'where is Man' and 'who is Man'

never how is Man....

[dense cargo]

||That's why he's in therapy||

[ripe harbor]

||I really liked his dialogue in 3 it was so whimsical. Instantly great character.||

[strange cloud]

Admittedly yah that’s part of the vibe I got

[low surge]

• 🟪🦖Kris, I like Noelle
• 🐱I also have feelings for Noelle
• ❤️Is there anyone in hometown who DOESNT like Noelle?
• 🐦

[sour mesa]

lol

[inland hare]

I think Susie needs to duel catti for the soul of jockington

Beard of jockington

[vocal elbow]

https://bsky.app/profile/blumen.bsky.social/post/3lt3dnxp5xc2q

Blumen (@blumen.bsky.social)

-# Jay (@envinyon.bsky.social)
I Do Not Actually Hate Berdly, but I do press circle on his text boxes

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Bluesky · Jul 3, 2025, 6:18 PM

[low surge]

Jockington growing the beard will be essential to the fulfillment of the prophecy

How long do we keep using the spoiler tag here btw?

[restive comet]

Why do I keep forgetting that???

[low surge]

Same

I feel like we really only see it happening to Kris is part of it, if we had scenes of her bullying other characters it would stick out more

[low surge]

Something just occurred to me that probably everyone else thought of || Goners are all grey, and appear to be slight edits of existing monsters in Undertale. The Seven Flying Aces say they’re all copies, and that they’d be grey if not for Kris coloring them in. Clam Girl is a goner, a copy of Clam Guy, differentiated because they were colored in. So the Goners are copies, possibly made by Gaster for some reason? Maybe as a way for him to interact with the world? And then there’s the Man, who the art therapy room ends up describing as a grey smear. So is the Man a copy of Gaster? ||

[hidden pivot]

what if you just end it cristian and fuck gender agreement?

[dense cargo]

||But then, what does that make Library Bird, whose is the colored form of a Goner, but still obviously very suspicious?||

||They don't act like an "original" their Goner from undertale would be based on||

||Also would this imply that Clam Girl's original, non-Goner state was just like, a disguise?||

[low surge]

|| Library Bird is weird, I’d say if anything they’re almost a candidate for a colored in goner that’s in the light world? Not sure if goners can be there, assumedly so based on the vessel being what we were supposed to use. I feel like different behavior is maybe because the bird was clearly made later so not as clear maybe? No original for Toby to base their behavior off of? As for clam girl disguise, maybe? I mean retroactively she is a goner (unless we want to argue if different ports are different canons) so I guess? Just to me it sticks out as an instance of a goner/copy that was colored in like the Aces. But what would be the point if UT and DR are separate things? Why tease that outside of the meta reference for the player ||

[dense cargo]

Idk, I've always though of the Goners as just having been "removed" (which has usually been the most widespread theory). I think it just kind of fits better with both Goner Kid's dialogue and Gaster's general condition?

[low surge]

True

Something about the || seven flying aces and the grey smear comment || just had me thinking. Didn’t account for Goner kid. It’s just odd to me that with one exception we have corresponding “originals”

[dense cargo]

Like, the Goners are clearly some form of alternate or altered version of game npcs. The where, how and why of their existences is still very unclear so far.

[low surge]

|| I just feel like the colored copies thing has got to mean something greater. ||

[dense cargo]

||The Aces are both copies, and also completely lost and forgotten||

[low surge]

Also library bird is called normalnpc in the game files that’s not suspicious at all huh Tony

[dense cargo]

And yeah, Library Bird acts completely differently from their Goner in UT, while also still being mega-suspicious

[low surge]

What’s on the other side of the upper library Toby?

[dense cargo]

||Like, they seem to be losing it a bit in chapter 4, like they're realizing that their lines are wrong||

And if they're an original, that doesn't make too much sense, and if they're a copy, then where's the original?

[lunar saffron]

so true

[dense cargo]

And on the other hand, it makes sense for the Goners to maybe be creations rather than corruptions of pre-existing characters just from what we know about the Vessel creation. So really it's all very unknowable.

[hidden pivot]

i do wonder how the official translations are for languages with definite and binary gender but only because i love linguisitcs and double love forcing languages fo do things that "official sources" say are impossible for that language but you can just do if you arwnt a coward

[dense cargo]

I think the only official translation is the Japanese one?

[hidden pivot]

dang really? damn i hope we get more

[low surge]

Toby learns Portuguese arc when

[hidden pivot]

we must send toby fox to brasil

[low surge]

https://tenor.com/view/rolblox-devinbooker-gif-18412462

I actually want to learn a little Portuguese, a buddy of mine offered to show me around São Paulo if I ever go

[restive comet]

https://youtu.be/TtfoKaKi9P8?si=yhD_JUGbV2H60Bno

This slaps

[lusty cypress]

One song was called "the man who's got hands"

[low surge]

Rotoscoped Gaster who’s dialogue is all in sign language would go incredible hard

[sharp lodge]

||https://www.tumblr.com/chairmansans/787787894462005248/if-we-assume-the-voice-in-the-code-iswas-dess?source=share||
post chater 4 dess speculation

also, ||her being paranoid would make her having MREs in her bedroom make sense. dess was in what seems to be the richest family in hometown, she wouldn't need them||

[restive comet]

Can I see it?

https://tenor.com/view/the-simpsons-pathetic-principal-skinner-gif-14039035

[strange cloud]

Every time Goomy post a snowgrave related comic I want to curl into a ball

[low surge]

Oh the “thorns protect me” one yea?

Very agree

very bad thing that happens to the gay children makes me sad

[strange cloud]

It’s

awful

(They’re an amazing go follow them)

[low surge]

on one hand great art its so good great writing

on the other im crying and screaming and throwiung up please let the gay neurodivergent teenagers be happy and buy them ice cream with extra sprinkles

[strange cloud]

SAAAAME

God please

I just want them to be happy

[low surge]

i will crash out in defiance of god and heaven to protect them

someone made a deltarune "despite everything its still you" thing and like did NOT need to be psychically and emotionally assaulted like that

[strange cloud]

I saw that too

And god fuck

I really just want Kris to be happy

[low surge]

toby do NOT do this

i know you want to do not

[strange cloud]

Please let the ending be happy

I will not be able to handle these characters being miserable

[low surge]

i dont think toby is gonna bad end us

itll be bittersweet

but i dont think hes gonna do us dirty like that

[strange cloud]

Oh for sure

Unless

You know

the other route

[low surge]

oh weird route is gonna be sooooo bad

i dont know how itll work with the one end thing (if thats even actually whats happening) but weird route will be bad news bears

|| what with weird route ralsei saying "what if theres something worse than the prophecy" and all the instance of Kris self harming in ch4 ||

[strange cloud]

Oh it’s gonna fucking terrible

[low surge]

i cant do it, i dont like making fictional characters sad so i cant do evil runs of any game

[vocal elbow]

||And who's to say that Noelle is even herself anymore in Weird Route.||

[low surge]

|| oh no shes completely fucked, "she was used up" and all ||

also i looove and haaate how the weird route is like an abusive heteronormative relationship its so good but also fuck man

[strange cloud]

Me and a friend have a personal theory that ||the weird route, however unintentionally, is effectively beating down Kris and Noelle into the role of Cage and Girl for the prophecy. Kris an emotionless vessel for our amusement and Noelle a demure feminine girl finding love||

[low surge]

That’s good tho

I’d buy that

[analog burrow]

I’ve been thinking about how the strange someone could be ||the “Nightmare” in the sword game puppeteering the mantle, which we get some dialogue from||

[crimson ocean]

i was thinking about a theoretical fight against susie in the future, surely we wiill never hear the VS track again, , , right

[ripe harbor]

you got until 2026 to prepare!

[ripe harbor]

mhm

I think its one of the more likely candidates tbh

[ripe harbor]

I dont think her and noelle are both making it out of the game ngl

one or the other tragic end. maybe both

[crimson ocean]

||whether in the normal route when the existence of the soul is revealed, or in the weird route to save noelle||

as fucked as i know its gonna be i did have an idea for a cool susie boss mechanic tho inspired by the ch4 secret boss

[crimson ocean]

i was thinking, is the spade king wearing a shadow mantle?

is this related to this in some capacity

[ripe harbor]

he might've been the person to take it from Seam

they were in the same Dark World

and his cloak does just kinda.... fly off

[analog burrow]

Oh, and the fact they know ||Kris is searching for the crystals and their motivation for doing so, combined with them saying “We both have work to do” after the fight lends a lot of credence to them being the distributor of the crystals||

[ripe harbor]

Notably Seam, even with his general meta-knowledge of who you'll run into next

||Including the Knight and Gerson as shadow crystal holders||

has no idea how you got the Shadow Mantle back

something Strange happened

[crimson ocean]

||They could be the crystal distributor but the knight was on route with one no? Would that not mean it was them||

[vocal elbow]

Oh right just remembered something. ||So was watching an ACAB (All Chapters, All Bosses) speedrun and the runner pointed out that when Ralsei was explaining The Roaring to everyone at the end of Chapter 2 the visual for the Titans showed what looked like two Knights.||

[ripe harbor]

idk if the ||Knight gave it, Gaster - whos actively talking to us in the fight, our own hopes(?) or something else||

theres an odd seperation between the Knight and the Strange Person who talked to Jevil, and in ||Gerson describing both||

like they could be the same person

[analog burrow]

||Perhaps they give us the mantle because they can’t take the crystal from the knight themselves?||

[crimson ocean]

|| Now my crack theory that I'm not to attached too is that the knight could be someone semi possessed by the little cloak dude or another like him like a symbiote situation ||

[ripe harbor]

||Seam doesnt particularly seem to consider the Knight a different type of Shadow Crystal holder, just a strong one. Nothing about them being the source of them or any of that.||

[analog burrow]

Also, ||FRIEND and Seam both being cats, and the Mantle (previously Seam’s possession) having Seam’s fanged orange mouth feel a bit significant when paired with Seams uncanny knowledge of the shadow crystals||

[crimson ocean]

||I figured that the knight was just late to chapter 3 since kris started it, which is why like idk ramb or someone didnt get a crystal and become a holder ||

[ripe harbor]

when ||I first played ngl I thought it was foreshadowing for a (presumed) seam fight as the shelter secret boss||

cause the whole thing starts mirroring parts of your journey

||maybe its mirroring a future part?||

you know, Seam is on Asriel's computer's wallpaper

[analog burrow]

||Oh! and the Nightmare’s statement of “Do you honestly think it'll get you what you want...? no, part of you is just... enjoying this, isn't it?” mirroring the particular brand of pessimism Seam carries about||

[ripe harbor]

I don't know what that means

[analog burrow]

Having a toast to the end of the world kind of attitude

[crimson ocean]

Also I think it's obvious but when I saw this during the dark custscene I soyfaced like that's dogmalgam endogeny

Or at least it really reminded me

[ripe harbor]

they speak a little differently, John Mantle and Seam, hmmm

[analog burrow]

oh definitely

[ripe harbor]

for me its definitely the Image Friend that made me pull a Yiik

"It's Relevant?!?!?"

I wouldn't be surprised if that face is a representation of the strange someone, either

because it shows up more the more you do secret boss content

[crimson ocean]

The eyecolors are replicated fairly often too

[ripe harbor]

the Odd Controller is definitely one of the biggest in regards to this thing being involved directly

[crimson ocean]

Spamton, and ||with the hair and eye you could say Gerson but idk||

[ripe harbor]

just appearing out of nowhere near a ||vending machine with a Smile in stock, which leaves when you're done||

[analog burrow]

Oh shit yeah!

[ripe harbor]

||with the text bringing attention to the fact that nobody else entered back there after you, with Ramb on guard duty||

||And it shows up in the Mantle game both in easter eggs and the actual fight||

[ripe harbor]

yet Kris asks Ramb, without any input from you

the Odd Controller even has its colors

[analog burrow]

Wait wait neurons are firing

[ripe harbor]

and

[analog burrow]

what if the smiling cat is December’s nightmare

[ripe harbor]

||considering the first time you see it is after you reach a dead end in the Queen's basement, and then suddenly a teacup ride appears to help you find the key||

it might be trying to help you reach these secrets?

[ripe harbor]

which doesn't mean I think its not a little malicious

[analog burrow]

||this happens both times your encounter the nightmare in the sword route||

also yknow, it’s referred to as Nightmare in the code

[ripe harbor]

I wish that name caught on instead of Eram tbh

[crimson ocean]

Wait I'm putting it together, yellow and magenta, what color is💀 kriss CYAN I've figured it all out 🍐

[ripe harbor]

Eram is clearly playing off it

[ripe harbor]

||you think the scratching sound might be related to this fucked up demon cat?||

thats what my friends were thinking but its really a big 'who knows'

[analog burrow]

||It almost seems like Nightmare is another kind primordial dark world creation, akin to the titans||

[analog burrow]

||General consensus is that it’s the datamining reader, but who knows||

[crimson ocean]

Not lore but Specifically i pictured her chopping the box the player is in into two boxes cutting the soul in half and then you have to use WASD and arrow keys at the same time or twinsticks to dodge two different bullet patterns at once in each box I think that would be cool just her cutting chunks off restricting your movement area

|| I kinda want her to if she gets snowgraved and she just fuckin eats that shit you just hear muffled rude busters from in the ice ||

[ripe harbor]

I could see that too

[analog burrow]

One last crackpot speculation before I sleep: ||If December’s nightmare is the door shutting behind her leaving her trapped in darkness, what if Kris’s nightmare is their hand vanishing as they try to grab something important to them||

[ripe harbor]

but, if ||the Unused is Dess, and you are reading it 'in the present', and the Knight is Dess...||

how would you square those theories?

[analog burrow]

Idk ¯_(ツ)_/¯
there’s still a whole lot of questions to be answered

[ripe harbor]

my crackpot speculation has been about Element 6, if you take it to be Gaster related, possibly having an underlying theme of - idk, 'Connection'?

whatever that would mean

||Its kind of the throughline between strings, the Odd Controller, whatever Gaster does at the start, and maybe the phone calls?||

||these all establish links||

[analog burrow]

And then you got all the weirdness around cats

[ripe harbor]

maybe the hand things too

you 'pet' the cats, I guess? Gaster is known for hands - except not really in this game?

[analog burrow]

Seam, friend, catpetterz, the tail of hell

[ripe harbor]

you pull strings, theres an element of touch involved

touching something is reaching out to it?

¯_(ツ)_/¯

in chapter 0 secret super shadowboss encounter where Seamlovania starts playing I'm sure we'll get our answers

its just such a strange element

[low surge]

Not nearly enough time

[ripe harbor]

unfortunately true

[analog burrow]

Actually, some kind of Nightmare given form by the dark might help explain why there’s so much separate yet loosely connected spooky shit

personal fears

[ripe harbor]

||At least part of the Titans are manifested from general fear, so I've been wondering if part of their storyline is going to involve them being made worse by a fear (instead of embrace) of the unknown||

[low surge]

I will cling desperately to my cope that I can change fate

[ripe harbor]

||Maybe 'Nightmares' are just fears with personal identity?||

[ripe harbor]

I have been thinking about

how the face only shows up chapter 2 onwards

and how Jevil says "soon a nightmare will awaken in your heart"

but thats speculation to the extreme, its way too flimsy

but....

I got my eye on it if the word Nightmare shows up again

[analog burrow]

Also…

🤔

many forms…

[crimson ocean]

your best nightmare,,,

[vocal elbow]

||Makes me think this Titan has a kind of angelic form due to being in a church.||

[ripe harbor]

||Its hard to tell because it wouldn't be the first time fonts of darkness are called 'HOLY' re: the OST||

||and The Holy does reprise in Guardian||

which has confusing but juicy implications

[ripe harbor]

or its just this

[analog burrow]

Don’t forget the passage about the fallen star

the angel may be closer to the darkness rather than the light as one would be lead to belive

[golden haven]

This is Dark Souls 3 all over again

[ripe harbor]

or Darkness might be closer to Light? It still seems the holy element is connected to Light in vibes + its elemental pairing, but they are two sides of the same coin

I mean taking away the Light that isnt there makes, what, negative light? It could be a mirror type deal, where they look & act similar even as they're inverted

||Titans as fallen angels, or Grigori-type watchers? Fallen Stars?||

[low surge]

Guys?!?!?!?

wtf?!?!?!?

Is this real??!?!?!?!?!?

[fluid path]

this game is 10 years old

[lusty cypress]

Two images
https://www.tumblr.com/madfor-dash/787639731473252352/feel-like-hed-be-a-pinkie-kinnie-idk

[foggy python]

Ch 4 + Library of Ruina ||Wonder if I have a save before the big piano so i can try and shitpost a gone angels meme||

[analog burrow]

Ok I’m all in on Nightmare being massively significant later

[foggy python]

ch3 ||hey why the fuck does undyne know how to use shit in the dark world||

[dense cargo]

||Judging by the amount of spears, I'd say she practiced||

[hidden pivot]

remember theres only one end that both routes share

we have been told that in advance

[dense cargo]

From the Steam page

[foggy python]

ah. that sounds right

[inland hare]

Oh my god

Saw a video depicting Asriel s most cringe love letter to catty

[strange cloud]

Susie can immediately use rude Buster

I think it’s just dark world rules that you immediately understand your magic

[foggy python]

i think susie can use it in real life too, she just doesnt have the axe

[low surge]

“Kris check this shit”

[inland hare]

||I mean considering the literal field of spears behind her I think she’s been practicing the moment she entered||

[lusty cypress]

Anyone know what the window shooting minigame is inspired by?

I had years ago a nightmare with some elements of it so I'm curious

[ripe harbor]

I dont think you can magic outside of Dark Worlds tbh

well, not 'normal' magic

idk if catti is onto anything with the demon summoning rituals

and theres something weird going on ||with bits of the weird route|| so idk if thats a hard rule

[foggy python]

she just had to lock in

[foggy python]

maybe one of these?

[low surge]

Pretty sure I had an old plug and play game that was like that

[foggy python]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy8L7QUqoTU

the ost also has some sfx that toby fox samples i believe

yeah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsM-1WNGeAw

midway through here

[lusty cypress]

Thanks everyone

[foggy python]

ch4

[lusty cypress]

Could be, but ||The knight walks around in the light world||

[sharp lodge]

||also, they made a dark fountain in chapter 4, and it's established in chapter 2 that only lightners can do that||

[dense cargo]

||Isn't it explicit that Gerson just isn't in Susie's dark world? It's just one of the statues that came to life.||

[foggy python]

||yeah, im not really focused on the whole susie's gerson or whatever, i think it's an interesting piece of into to bring into future chapters--the fact that lightners can be revived/emulated in the dark world post mortem||

||the post doesn't really follow my personal crackpot theories but i think it's worth keeping in a backpocket given the context of the new chapters||

[lusty cypress]

||Whatever the Knight is, has to be at least partially a lightner||

ALthough

I have seen the idea that ||the knight emits their own darkness to be sustained in the light world
Even so, the ability to create dark worlds is a big differential||

[foggy python]

||this veers closer to what i think the knight is||

[foggy python]

||kinda like a vampire wearing full body armor/coverings||

[lusty cypress]

To me the knight is most probably ||a heavily warped Dess by the dark, and or using Kriss' original soul||

[foggy python]

||from what we know it seems to be heading in the direction of either being Dess or Carol yeah, though i think there may be another soul in play||

||no evidence for that last part, just a guess||

[lusty cypress]

I coud see Kris ||desperately trying to get dess back and creating the knight, if we have the knight possess kris' original soul
Because if it was anyone else, it would be so evil to rip out a kid's soul. Carol wouldn't be portrayed doing that, because I don't think her vibe is pure evil, just a prent that got awful after losing her eldest||

[foggy python]

||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MPgKTtvWcY||

[foggy python]

|| 🙂‍↕️ im definitely on the side of Fucked Up Revival||

[lusty cypress]

||The knight obviously is intelligent and can work with Kris, but also they're ratehr feral and primal
Like the Titans||