#Undertale and Deltarune

1 messages · Page 7 of 1

inland hare
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or are we just controlling a character

ripe harbor
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I mean the intro is literally you getting contacted by a mysterious voice to build a vessel and then getting yoinked away last minute

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hardly an invasion plot

dense cargo
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Anyways, this is almost certainly something the game is never going to give us an answer to

inland hare
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I still believe Kris invited us in because they want something from us

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||Snowgrave route is a price that they are reluctant but ultimately willing to pay if you ask me||

dense cargo
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||You can definitley be cruel, but I don't think you're an invader either||

inland hare
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otherwise ||they wouldn't let us back in||

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yeah

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||Kris and we are perhaps unwilling, but definitely partners||

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they ||want something from us and is willing to pay the price for it||

dense cargo
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||Also that thing with the cyanide||

inland hare
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||oh they are very angry at us||

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||but they still take us back in||

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I don't think its really the cyanide

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apple is a small red object

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like ||the Soul||

ripe harbor
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They might have more knowledge about what went down at the very start than us

inland hare
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so they were ||probably jsut expressing their extreme displeasure with you by throughly chewing up an object that resembles you||

ripe harbor
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||If our vessel making getting interrupted was diagetic||

inland hare
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yeah

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also what's up with the blood

dense cargo
ripe harbor
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I've heard that the ||phone call in japanese at the end says something closer to "Kris can't enter Dark Fountains without a Soul" so theres definitely a motive||

inland hare
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mmm

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wonder what happens if they do

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but hold on

dense cargo
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||I just don't know if I buy Kris being so willing to accomplish their goals that they take us back in of their own free will despite what we're doing to Noelle||

inland hare
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they certainly have ||no issue opening a dark fountain without our help||

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so what, they can ||open up dark fountains but can't neter it?||

dense cargo
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||So yeah, maybe they can make one but not enter it||

inland hare
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hrm

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what does that mean though

dense cargo
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||Or survive in the Dark World without us?||

inland hare
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maybe

ripe harbor
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they never take the soul out in a dark fountain

ripe harbor
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idk how credible they are

inland hare
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still wonder who the voice on the phone is

ripe harbor
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||'enter' might mean literally enter or it might just mean they'd get trapped or something equally bad. They need the soul when they enter.||

inland hare
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esp since the ||voice curiously very specifically says "I'll be right there!"||

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and immediately afterwards, ||two people arrive to interrupt Susie and Noelle||

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||Asgore and Carol||

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although notably Kris ||might not necessarily be speaking to the same voice between the phone calls||

ripe harbor
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that ||whoever it is knows about the Soul definitely marks them as incredibly suspicious||

inland hare
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yeah

ripe harbor
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||and definitely makes it seem like the Player is being used||

inland hare
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yeah

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||we aren't an invader as much as being exploited by someone||

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with ||Kris being basically our handler||

ripe harbor
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which is honestly a very fun dynamic

inland hare
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Kris allows us significant control of their|| body but at least in the light world, is able to stop us from doing anything they don't really want to do||

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I'm guessing ||Kris can't just pull us out of their chest the dark world||

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||otherwise they'd have interrupted us in Snowgrave||

lusty cypress
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Another interesting thing ||You can't just obey kris in noelle's house. You have to disobey and show the guitar to Susie. Which is interesting
Could be a point towards the soul being its own character, or the prophecy railroading you||

lusty cypress
inland hare
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it would kinda explain how ||the knight turns into a small round object to dodge attacks||

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do you think we'll fight sans again in deltarune

lusty cypress
lusty cypress
inland hare
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please

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onion san is edging us enough already with mysterious song info

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hmm

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san

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sans

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how do we know there isn't a skeleton underneath the layers of onion

lusty cypress
inland hare
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i wonder if I can also find more instance of Kris refusing our command in the dark world

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I can only think of one example I think

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||if you somehow manage to play the code that you need on the piano, Kris will force you to screw up on the last note||

dense cargo
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||Do we count things like Kris coughing to modify some of the things you try to get them to say (like for example with Ralsei in his room) as refusing a command? Or is that less of a refusal and more using a loophole?||

sour mesa
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I'd call it a refusal

inland hare
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i guess there is also ||Biting their own hand to prevent you from forcing them to say "I'll never play again"||

dense cargo
inland hare
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could've sworn I got that in the dark world

dense cargo
inland hare
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hmm

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yeah I might be misremembering

dense cargo
# sour mesa I'd call it a refusal

||I ask, cause several times Kris doesn't outright disobey our commands (which they probably can't), and instead manoeuvres around them||

inland hare
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yeah like

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||only turning the closet handle but not opening it||

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||biting their own hand in order to prevent you from saying something is definite initiative though||

lusty cypress
lusty cypress
dense cargo
inland hare
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how crowded do you think the school closet is getting btw

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in real space

lusty cypress
inland hare
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at this point

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i'm just sorta expectting lightners in chapter 5 to start going Goner or smth

ripe harbor
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||In english it just says 'cant...' but in japanese the wording is slightly different. Or so I've heard.||

inland hare
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btw gotta wonder

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why would that even come up in a conversation

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why bring up something Kris presumably already knows

ripe harbor
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||They're having second doubts about the whole situation? This is also the call with the '...you promised....'||

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||So I can see laying it out for them. "You gotta do X if we want to do Y. You promised."||

strange cloud
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I hope we eventually fight Gaster just because that’d be hype as shit

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I am very susceptible to hype moments and aura

dense cargo
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It would make obsolete a decade's worth of fan Gaster fights

sour mesa
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like how deltarune made sequels and fangames obsolete?

dense cargo
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Yes

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All of them

strange cloud
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They’ll still be beautiful in their own way

inland hare
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deltarune chapter releases continues to make all popular fan comics and theories obsolete

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i'm here for it

strange cloud
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It doesn’t also mean those theories and art were worthless

inland hare
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well yes

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but unexpected twists are great

sour mesa
dense cargo
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Speaking more seriously, I don't think it makes anything the fans make actually obsolete. It does however always feel a bit weird revisiting things after the twists of the latest chapter and such.

inland hare
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it kinda feels like archaeological study

dense cargo
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They are still valuable pieces of fan commitment and effort, of course.

inland hare
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entire literatures based on an interpretation that later evidence kind upends

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and so the historiography itself becomes intriguing

dense cargo
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I do think it would be funny if Gaster finally shows up in person, and he's not the mystery man sprite from Undertale.

inland hare
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what if gaster is just an ordinary guy

dense cargo
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It's never been actually stated to be Gaster! It could be an unrelated mysterious man.

inland hare
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true

strange cloud
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I mean… it’s probably him though lol

dense cargo
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Oh for sure

inland hare
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what if we finally find the origin of the gasterblaster

strange cloud
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Oh yah

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I feel like people kinda forget, Gaster being related to sans and papyrus isn’t some like, undertale fandom hallucination

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Why the fuck does he have Gaster blasters?

inland hare
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maybe he found them

lusty cypress
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Well both sans and gaster are researchers

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Sans knows a lot of esoteric stuff

inland hare
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I also feel like

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the gasterblaster and sans' magic is like.... laser targeted to counter specifically the Player if that makes sense

strange cloud
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True yah

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His stats ain’t lying

inland hare
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deals minimal damage to avoid invincibility frame

strange cloud
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He does do 1 damage and has 1 defense

inland hare
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but deals damage every tick

strange cloud
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His strength comes from game knowledge

inland hare
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which might mean it was specifically developed from experience of fighting something like the Player?

strange cloud
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Not sure, I remember reading somewhere that monster magic is like, inherently understood by the monster

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But also that could have been a fanfic

dense cargo
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Chapter 4 ||The dodging is now a bit less of shock with Deltarune than it was back in Undertale||

inland hare
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well undyne clearly trains though

sour mesa
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I don't think undertale gets that detailed

inland hare
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so I'm not sure if 'inherently understood' is accurate

sour mesa
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and deltarune seems to counter that with Susie's healing magic

strange cloud
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I played undertale when I was 11 and have been consuming fan content ever since a lot of my canon knowledge could be confused with fanon

inland hare
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unless undyne is just weird

strange cloud
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Yah you’re probably right then

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Wonder why I thought that then

inland hare
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i'm sure monsters have an instinctive grasp of magic

strange cloud
inland hare
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but practice always refines it

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I think?

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monsters can get stronger with training

strange cloud
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Yah true

dense cargo
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For sure I don't think we ever see magic in the Light World

strange cloud
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I mean, Noelle talks about the magic in dragon blazers as a fantasy

inland hare
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we don't, no

strange cloud
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Like it’s something she wants to heal Rudy but she knows is impossible

inland hare
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yeah and toriel doesn't use fire magic to cook

dense cargo
strange cloud
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Also I think it’s just implied because the light world is significantly less gamey then the dark world

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So far, there’s nothing in the light world that functions like a video game

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Kris has a stats screen but it isn’t actually used for anything yet

inland hare
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except for the minor glitching library bird yeah

dense cargo
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It's interesting that Humans can't use magic in the Dark World while Monsters can though

strange cloud
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Actually I think that’s less because they’re a human and more because it’s their “skill”

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That’s how Ralsei describes it anyway

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Acting is Kris’s skill, magic is Susie and Ralsei’s skill

strange cloud
sour mesa
inland hare
strange cloud
dense cargo
strange cloud
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Yah

inland hare
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which is why I feel like ||some lighteners are gonna go goner starting next chapter||

strange cloud
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I hope the library bird does

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I need that thing out of my way already

dense cargo
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||There's that Clam Guy, I guess||

crystal shale
dense cargo
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ohno

inland hare
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obviously the egg

strange cloud
inland hare
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btw

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what the freak is Everyman

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is it important?

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why does it keep showing up

crystal shale
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We dont know

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They're one of the Expiriments in Undertale though, iirc?

inland hare
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we don't know

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we ||kill a penguin looking bird that kinda resembles everyman in the sword route||

dense cargo
# inland hare is it important?

It could be! or (chap 4 spoilers) ||It could end up like another Mike. It doesn't feel like the kind of thing that will end up explained, at least that's my hunch.||

strange cloud
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I think Everyman is legitimately just a joke at this point. Like it has no build up, or association with anything important, I think it is the joke Easter egg character a lot of people expect Gaster or Friend to be

crystal shale
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Yeah its possible

lusty cypress
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Hey thinking on it C4
||vgfm's knight alvin theory is dead, but the fact the knight is involved with the booms is interesting

  • The knight entered ms boom's library when it was closed
  • Alvin knows of the shelter and tells kris to stay away
  • Alvin exhumed his father Gerson. In fact, even by like chapter 2 he standing troubled by his father's grave
  • The knight's sanctuaries were the right conditions to revive Gerson||
    Just, deeply suspicious
    ||What is Alvin up to?||
inland hare
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meanwhile

strange cloud
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They secret is marrying both

lusty cypress
dense cargo
crystal shale
lusty cypress
inland hare
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ooh

dense cargo
inland hare
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yeah that makes sense

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but iif ||alvin did create the dark fountain to resurrect gerson... where did he go?||

dense cargo
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||That or he's in the Shelter, since he possibly has the code? (the delta rune section)||

strange cloud
inland hare
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hmm

strange cloud
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||if you find the door you can just leave the dark world||

vocal elbow
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||Kind of had a like random train of thought. So like the Titans are the fear of the dark made manifest and the Knight is kind of Titan-like, what if the Knight is basically meant to be like The Boogeyman. They can manifest in the Light World only where and when it's dark.||

lusty cypress
inland hare
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yeah i mean

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it's like finding a ||rotting corpse in someone's closet||

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susie's ||freakout is pretty understandable||

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although I suppose a burial urn might be a more appropriate comparison

lusty cypress
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||Exactly. It's a bit understated, as we are accostumed to burial urns
But this is a violation of how the funerary practice goes
His father's remains were dug up and stored in his office||

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||As susie says, that's not normal||

inland hare
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yeah

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...or were never buried in the first place

wicked bear
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I want those 2 to duke it out

gilded canopy
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*duke it out?

quiet crypt
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So, thing with Player=Angel is less any direct ecidence and more pile of implied foreshadowing:
||1) We control the Angel doll;
2) We are lighting the path for the gang, just like the Dess song says. Which is also something Angel is supposed to do per Alvin;
3) Angel is generally associated with Light in Monster Religion, and we are the being of Light, being more real than the Light World. ||

Nothing concrete, but you can see the throughline.

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My personal theory is that the Angel will be ||Noelle and Soul fusion. ||

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Cause ||Noelle also has a pile of Angel associations. ||

low surge
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|| it’s kind of hilarious how far off WoodyTheroy was. Bro didn’t hit a single shot. ||

dense cargo
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||Asgore likes a canceled cowboy show! There's still a chance in Chapter 5! (there is no chance in chapter 5)||

lusty cypress
dense cargo
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||Considering the Mike fight actively parodies it, I would be extremely surprised if the Woody theory ever turns out to be true||

analog burrow
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(Chapter 4 spoilers)
Ok I am becoming more and more convinced ||Papyrus isn’t real||

lusty cypress
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||I just like woody theory. It's fun||

inland hare
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What’s the e woody theory

strange cloud
lusty cypress
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It ended up no appearing in chapter 3 in spite of the Wild Western refereces

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The theorists believe that, since one darkner says darkners from the black and white days moved out, one quiz reveals the cowboy show was cancelled
That asgore has vhs tapes of the show in his home

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And thus, a woody reference darkner will be in canto 5

restive comet
analog burrow
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I still doubt that woody theory’s gonna bear fruit, but hey, anything can happen.

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Still can’t shake the feeling that people successfully predicted a (sorta cut?) reference to Woody’s Roundup, but overestimated the importance of it.

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my personal hunch for chapter 5’s crystal holder ||is that it’s Seam, but I don’t necessarily believe he’ll be the “secret boss”||

vocal elbow
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||Don't we already know Asgore has it?||

analog burrow
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||He has a black shard, but we don’t know if he has the crystal||

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We find them together, but they’re distinct items, so it’s hard to say

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Seam ||having the crystal gives a fairly straightforward answer to why he knows so much about them, and future events in general||

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Oh and on a separate note, there’s a detail I thought intriguing about Noelle’s house I saw pointed out

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Despite the numerous Christmas trees and decorations, there’s only ||two places with stars: The roof (where there’s only one), and December’s room.||

analog burrow
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you can view this dialogue by ||taking one of Noelle’s pencils in the light world and equipping it, putting the black shard in your inventory||

lunar saffron
analog burrow
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oh neat

strange cloud
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Asriel and Susie when it comes to pulling everyone in their grade

b617da94-216c-4e9d-ab35-b17f3e11c746.png
analog burrow
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Friendship ended with TwistedSword, I am now going insane over stars instead

sage needle
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I'm still twisted sword pilled

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Surely there will be a third ending related to that thing

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Assuming there's even more than one I guess lol

strange cloud
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Also I gotta say I think it’s really funny whenever a non memey comic portrays the player as a character it’s always 1 of 2 options

Extremely empathetic and just wants to make Kris happy even if they hate them

A DEMON who can and WILL make Kris’s life a living hell just because it can, even if it’s not doing snowgrave it WILL treat Kris like a problem child who they think is ungrateful towards them

low surge
inland hare
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What about just a regular guy who’s hardly paying attention to the plot and makes clumsy mistakes

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While otherwise being pacifist in

low surge
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I try to make decisions I think would be what Kris would say/do but only so much you can really

inland hare
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I have determined that the only way to be honorable

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Personally for me

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Is to just ignore what I think Kris would do

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And just do whatever I want to do

foggy python
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playing ch3 finally

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it's so fucking peak im not even past the first npc reveal

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i have 7K in my fucking pockets? what did I do in my last save?

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||STYLE. METER||

foggy python
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NOOOOO I DONT KNOW SHIT

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AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

lusty cypress
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My decision making is generally

  • What I find fun/sates my curiosity/feels like the right or kind thing
  • Stuff that seems like a big deal for Kris (the "no" after Spamton)
  • Messing with Kris (imply they are into Berdly)
foggy python
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||C for chef. score||. ..

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||im. Bad at cooking ||

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im kind of glad the save point was so fucking far out because i would have minmaxed the fuck out of that

ripe harbor
ripe harbor
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🤔

analog burrow
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Also potentially creates this sort of duality, considering ||The shadow crystals show the light world when used in the dark||

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A story clearly displayed vs one obscured… 🤔

foggy python
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so

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whats the uh

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||loot pool for the golden gacha||

ripe harbor
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I wouldn't know because my friend hinted at ||the december thing|| before I did anything else ||and the fucking machine disappeared||

dense cargo
foggy python
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yup

dense cargo
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Here you go

SPOILER_Screenshot_2025-06-25_at_13.04.09.png
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||I'd recommend getting some of these, they can be pretty useful||

foggy python
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FUCK

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now i GOTTA

dense cargo
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||The Tie and the Exec Buffet in particular were very useful to me||

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||But I also got lucky and found them on my first rolls||

foggy python
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hmm

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||how can i farm points, if possible||

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||im on the uhh. before the second board||

wheat adder
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||You also need S on the boards if you wanna do all the content in the chapter.||

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||S, or just have lots of points I think, so you can buy your way into the S rank room||

dense cargo
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Yeah, ||you should probably try to get that S-rank right now rather than do what I did and have to replay the entire chapter for it.||

foggy python
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||i heard there was a Trank for every board...im not going for that||

wheat adder
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Tips ||on the cooking physical challenge: try to get as many dishes as possible before throwing them and try to hit the special guests with as many as possible. Jumping around is your friend.||

dense cargo
wheat adder
foggy python
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bo Womp

ripe harbor
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It removes ||Tenna's "I watched you grow up! I taught you to laugh! I taught you to CRY! .... What, you think its my fault you forgot how???"||

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which

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it goes hard

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get their ass

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theres a few times I think getting the pacifist or full completion content actually makes the scenes worse imo

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like in Chapter 1 I think the violent-path win is a better story beat than the spare one

dense cargo
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It also does not change anything at all in the long run

ripe harbor
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and (Chapter 3 Spoilers) ||I think there is actually a tragic hook to letting Tenna actually straight up fucking die because of the events of the Dark Fountain. I like him, I want him to survive - but, it makes a point!||

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||And it does make his death Kris' fault in an interesting way.||

dense cargo
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As in, there's no consequence for using violence in ch 1, I believe

lethal ferry
ripe harbor
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I didn't get S rank enough times on my first playthrough of the chapter 💀

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so its what I saw

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if optional stuff is done ||He instead almost spills that he knows Kris made the fountain to the rest of the party, before cutting himself off||

lethal ferry
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I guess I’m just (heh) too good 😎 /s

ripe harbor
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"Oh boy I'm excited to put my skills to the test, after Nightreign this is sure to be a breeze!"
The devious Rhythm game:

wheat adder
ripe harbor
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but it makes me wonder how many interesting character moments get missed by full pacifist

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I'm no different, I'm out here recruiting everyone

wheat adder
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||Me: "you will make friends and have fun and you will like it Kris Dreemurr!"||

ripe harbor
wheat adder
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||Oh, interesting.||

ripe harbor
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its sort of like ||the dialogue you get about Ramb if he turns to stone in his booth, which you only get if you dont do the secret route with him||

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I think chapter 3 might be more intended to be gone through twice than the others

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only set of secret content that really cuts off like that behind a timed skill-check

wheat adder
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I'm a try hard and explore every inch of every chapter so I literally did everything in a go lmao

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Even found the egg on my first go

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I do in fact facehug every wall while pressing confirm in this kinda game

lusty cypress
wheat adder
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||Kris is probably confused as hell by me making them facehug all the walls and talk to people over and over again.||

ripe harbor
lusty cypress
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||Kris you will make friends. You will get an education by looking at every little secret. You will get a good resume from all you achieve||

ripe harbor
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||sorry bud we gotta smash our face into each and every one. What if there are secrets.||

foggy python
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I SUCK AT THESE MINIGAMES
NONONONNONONO

lusty cypress
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||Susie: So that otherworldly soul of the prophecy is just a curious nag babysitting you?||

dense cargo
foggy python
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BOTH

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||FIGHRYGDAY NIGHT FUNKIN||

dense cargo
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Substantial chapter 3 + 4 spoilers ||Saw another potential piece of evidence for the Knight - Dess theory today. Dess is probably left-handed, based on the position of her computer's mouse, and the Knight wields their sword mostly with their left-hand. ||

wheat adder
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||Yeah people have been talking about that. Iirc Asriel's PC also has a left handed mouse?||

inland hare
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Yes

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So it’s ||not just Dess who’s left handed||

dense cargo
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||yep. Carol might not be though||

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||anyways, it's consistent with all the rest of the Dess evidence||

lusty cypress
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||So it's rather likely the knight is a part of dess, or a dess so twisted from healthy she cannot just go home in spite of walking the light world||

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||A remote body she created could be an interesting possibility, but there's evidence of this, we have not seen anything like that before/yet.||

foggy python
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i realize where all the money came from sort of

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i had the all of the extra money equipment on and im pretty sure i wanted to end ch2 with all battles having maxed out tp or something

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at least i made it through ||board 2||

strange cloud
inland hare
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Kris fursona

foggy python
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hey so

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||is the whole lancer digging stuff up bit like a reference to anything specific||

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||i need to know before i scream my head off about something /lh||

timber widget
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||He's a spade||

foggy python
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||okay so it seems like i can start screaming then||

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ah wait

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||the loz had a digging thing, markout crisis averted||

restive comet
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Ch4 ending spoilers:
||Does anyone else have any evidence that Susie is half human other than she bleeds, she's been ostracized throughout her childhood for some reason and we haven't seen her parents yet so she could be?||

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||I personally do find that really interesting and I was thinking that as well, but I feel like I don't have enough evidence to support that theory and it's probably meant to be that way until the later chapters confirm or deny it||

sage needle
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||I personally don't think that Susie is going to be half human. I think that raises too many questions that the Internet would be very excited to ask and answer...||

restive comet
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||Actually, she also seems to think that it's normal too when she says "everyone bleeds, no?" and is shocked when she finds out monsters are supposed to turn to dust upon death||

restive comet
sage needle
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||I must have missed the everyone bleeds line. Maybe there is something to it 🤔||

restive comet
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||She says that in Ch1||

ripe harbor
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||I think monsters just bleed in Deltarune sometimes or even most of the time tbh||

timber widget
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||As much as I find that theory fascinating, for points against, she also says that "All we gotta do is crush them to dust" or something to that effect, which I take to mean the monster death thing. Her surprise at Gerson's hammer could just be an unfamiliarity with the specific rite, given she's moved here from elsewhere||

lusty cypress
timber widget
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Maybe so, I dunno

sage needle
timber widget
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||Or that, yeah, my point was more that this doesn't necessarily imply she doesn't know what happens to monsters when they die||

lusty cypress
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||Honestly, it would be hard to live in communities with many monsters without knowing that||

ripe harbor
#

counter-counter-counterpoint:

#

||she forgor 💀||

strange cloud
#

Found a very strange theory, that instead of being possessed by us, Kris has magic soul DID and we’re just playing one of their alters

ripe harbor
#

Its kinda ambigious how common Souls are, right?

#

and if Kris always had one?

inland hare
#

Our soul is probably pretty special

#

Considering ||Ralsei doesn’t know what you are||

ripe harbor
#

||Ralsei also underlines that 'only Kris can seal the Fountain' in the first chapter, which is either prophecy-following or actually true. There does seem to be something special with Kris' Soul / Us.||

#

||Given the Titan fight and all that happens around it||

#

so idk. Maybe its a pretty rare thing in general

#

If we are the Soul, and we only arrived recently ||with Noelle (maybe Toriel too?) commenting on Kris acting strange as a recent thing||

#

did they just... not have one

#

do most people not have one?

inland hare
#

Most people are soulless automatons

dense cargo
ripe harbor
#

Kris seems a lot weaker after taking 'us' out but its odd if we / the Red Soul is its own thing. What happened to theirs?

dense cargo
inland hare
dense cargo
#

At least that's what I've seen some people suggest as an explanation

inland hare
#

Souls are worthless as swamp gas

ripe harbor
#

||I've heard speculation about the shadow crystals eventually being used to make a soul, because they do shatter when destroyed||

inland hare
#

Feel free to sell your soul to the devils

#

Very good deal for souls these days

ripe harbor
inland hare
#

It plot of deltarune is reverse of undertale

#

Then I have a prediction

#

At the ||epilogue, people will be able to hear the name we claimed as our own at the start and will address us as such||

#

Instead of calling us ||Kris, which is not our name||

dense cargo
lusty cypress
#

||Spamton does talk about taking the soul||

#

||However, to him, Kris and soul are teh same person||

strange cloud
#

They just don’t know what they do

strange cloud
dense cargo
strange cloud
#

No that we don’t

sharp lodge
inland hare
dense cargo
ripe harbor
#

I thought ||he implied it stopped after chapter 6 and he just didn't get that far in his fight||

ripe harbor
#

||"Chapter 5 etc etc" -> "There was only one more.... after that, it all stopped"||

#

at least thats how I read it

timber widget
#

||Very curious what this soul talk will mean for Noelle, too|| (Weird)

sharp lodge
#

also, a thought i have about the prophecy ||i think people are making a mistake when they say that noelle is supposed to be the second hero and not susie. while the slide depicting love finding its way to the girl has her with a sword, she also lacks antlers and looks more like susie. the slide talking about 'finally the girl' uses a symbol associated with susie's rude buster spell (and iirc has rude buster in its name in the files). also, susie's determination to change the future could be reflected in the prophecy, becuase the roaring is uniquely reffered to as something that could happen, not something that will, unlike the rest of the prophecy.

i think what's actually going on is the prohecy is vague about who the second hero is, maybe becuase whoever wrote it assumed it would be self-evident, but it means that the prophecy's wording about who the second hero is is vauge enough that noelle can be forced into susie's place, making her the second hero instead and making the weird route possible||

ripe harbor
#

||tbf the last could be implying susie is supposed to be ordered after the 4 heroes||

#

||It would be odd to number the heroes and then jump around so much, its possible the slides there were out of order||

#

||and there are 4 important 'main' characters involved (sorry Jockington)||

timber widget
#

(Weird again) ||What if Noelle is the Cage||

sharp lodge
#

||the cage is stated to have human soul and parts||

timber widget
#

||🔴 ||

ripe harbor
#

I also ||Think the roaring is probably guaranteed to happen, because both prophecies mention an apocalyptic threat that the heroes actively stop while its underway.||

timber widget
#

||No idea about the parts though, but do we do that for Kris, anyway?||

ripe harbor
#

I assume they are already covered on that front

#

with the, you know

timber widget
#

||"Parts" is just such peculiar wording, I feel like it has to be referring to something other than just "oh yeah this one is a human"||

sharp lodge
#

||it's dehumanizing like the rest of the slide, as though kris matters less than the soul they hold. continuing off from my earlier post, what if it's also something that could be forced to mean soemthing else, like using the vessel instead of kris if it shows up again||

inland hare
#

You know

#

“||the cage made of human soul and parts||” implies ||that we are the cage||

#

Because ||soul is a part of the cage in that sentence, not contained by it||

#

Hmm

#

The exact text is

dense cargo
#

||Well that also raises a different question: Are we the Soul, or only controlling Kris' soul?||

low surge
# strange cloud

Desperately trying to explain how Gaster is gonna be a major factor to my friend who just doesn’t believe it

inland hare
#

||“Cage, with human soul and parts”||

#

Which is a bit ambiguous

dense cargo
#

||If it's the latter, then we are caged within the Soul, rather than just being it||

ripe harbor
#

I mean at the start too

#

but like

strange cloud
dense cargo
#

There is basically no one else the mysterious voice could be

#

It has all of the traits necessary to be Gaster

strange cloud
#

How do I explain a decade’s worth of obscure foreshadowing and hints?

low surge
#

My friend believes that Gaster is there but that he’s at most a passive observer and won’t actively get involved in the story outside of some meta shenanigans

strange cloud
#

also I will genuinely say I think the belief that Gaster will never physically show up makes more sense to loreheads then casual players

low surge
#

Whereas I’m fairly certain that Gaster is a direct agent in the story

strange cloud
#

Because to casuals who don’t know Gaster, they see the intro and assume “that voice is a character that will appear eventually”

#

Because like, that’s basic story telling

ripe harbor
#

mhm

strange cloud
#

If a character speaks directly to you in the intro to something, it’s assumed you’ll eventually meet them

low surge
#

I’m unsure on him showing up, I think it’s possible but I’d imagine it would be rather brief and something akin to the eggs or secret bosses that you’ve got to go out of your way to find

#

But he could easily remain a disembodied voice

#

|| there’s also some fucky stuff going on with the egg man in chapter 3 that I imagine will extend to 4 and beyond ||

dense cargo
#

||Considering the way Chapter 4 ends, I would be surprised if he was not going to intervene in the plot at some point||

low surge
#

|| genuinely was surprised as fuck that the egg man was so obscure to get to in 3 compared to 1&2, and genuinely lost my shit when he talked ||

ripe harbor
#

||at the very least, his touch is all over the narrative, moreso than Undertale||

#

||It's 'his' Deltarune even||

low surge
#

Yeah absolutely

ripe harbor
#

so idk if he'll ever be there physically at least on a normal playthrough

#

but hes there!

#

and so is his weird cat....

low surge
#

I just can’t imagine how he can’t be a major player. In Undertale anything related to him was tied to FUN events and thus not likely to be experienced by most people not intentionally going after him. It’s been a hot minute since I played but I don’t remember anyone even mentioning him outside the Goners. Compared to Deltarune where the fucker is basically standing outside a window screaming and yelling and waving at us

#

Actually did he ever get mentioned outside the Goners?

#

I figure probably in relation to the true lab maybe, but I really don’t recall anything

inland hare
#

Indirectly

#

||sans weapons are called gasterblasters||

crystal shale
#

||and that same weapon shows up in the lab||

#

||Or at least a device heavily resembling an gasterblaster||

dense cargo
#

But apart from that, which you can only know from looking at the files, I don't think he's ever mentioned. Fitting for someone who was erased from the world

crystal shale
#

Alos "beware the man who speaks in hands" from the Ferryman guy

dense cargo
#

But the only moments where's actually named in-game is in FUN events.

crystal shale
#

But yeah, memes aside, as others have said it would be weirder if Gaster didnt show up to some capacity

dense cargo
#

A Goner's shown up already

#

Also in the files the Vessel you create at the beginning is also referred to as "GONER"

crystal shale
#

Several goners actually

#

obviously there's the Library Bird, but one of the Pizza Guys is a Goner iirc

strange cloud
low surge
#

Something interesting is that if Gaster is around, there might be different “shards” of him since he was shattered . There’s obviously the one who speaks at the start of the game and seemingly in the menus of chapter 1. Then there’s the egg man. Ch3 spoilers || I think the chapter 3 egg man may be a different shard. This one actually talks, and he’s fairly incoherent. Rambling like someone whose mind is not all there. It’s similar to the rambling Valentine’s Day card some people got from the one newsletter. The egg man didn’t speak prior to this, so I’m taking it as a different shard of Gaster. Wonder if he’ll talk again in ch4 ||

inland hare
#

Well he ||speaks in all caps so he’s clearly just papyrus ||

#

There was this theory years and years ago

low surge
#

Truth Nuke

inland hare
#

Back in undertale days

#

That ||papyrus is what’s left of gaster||

#

I don’t remember a lot of evidence for it

#

But it was interesting

#

But basically ||both speak in all caps, both have weird ways of phrasing things in similar ways, both really like puzzles, you are specifically barred from being able to contact papyrus in the presence of gaster followers or goners (you can still call toriel), and both have strange relationship with telephones||

#

Evidence is a bit circumstantial (most curious is inability to contact papyrus in the presence of gaster followers) but still nonetheless interesting

dense cargo
sharp lodge
inland hare
#

You know

#

Chapter 3 egg room’s aesthetic

#

Is ||intentionally evocative of undertale, right||

low surge
#

|| not discounting it, the dialogue just reminds me a lot of that Valentine’s Day card too much. Maybe I’m just grasping. The childhood thing though is there more to it outside of just him being in that game? I mean he appears twice prior, possibly a third time in the light world. Seems to be more than just a childhood memory Kris forgot. ||

restive comet
dense cargo
timber widget
dense cargo
#

||The fact that they talk different could imply that they are two shards of the same being, or it could mean that they just different entities.||

low surge
#

|| The letter being illegible unless you “squint with your heart” and how it later vanishes, the all caps, the odd spacing ||

#

|| I take it as Gaster isn’t all quite there anymore, what with being shattered across time and space. There are multiple instance of him now, some are more coherent than others. ||

#

|| I don’t think we need to have every Gaster instance needing to use Wingdings, we clearly see him using regular text in ch1. Maybe only some instances of him do that. ||

dense cargo
#

||idk, it seems to me like there's not enough to argue conclusively one way or the other for now.||

lusty cypress
low surge
#

Very likely the case, it’s absolutely subject to change. It’s just a reading I feel somewhat confident in.

#

As far as theories go

ripe harbor
lusty cypress
ripe harbor
#

also

#

about the 'more than one piece of gaster' thing,

#

I want to point out the music for the Gonermaker is labelled "Another Him"

low surge
low surge
dense cargo
#

||There's definitely similarities between the Man and Gaster, but it's also true that Deltarune contains a bunch of "vanished" characters. Hard to say whether it's just them having similar conditions. ||

low surge
#

I’m mostly operating off 1-3 knowledge, entirely possible there’s something in 4 that shows me I’m blatantly wrong

ripe harbor
#

true

dense cargo
#

I don't have any smashing refutation, I'm just not sure

ripe harbor
#

its difficult because its almost entirely trying to find similarities in characters that are defined by being erased and indistinct lmao

dense cargo
#

Almost everything we know about Gaster is already based on supposition

ripe harbor
#

and absence of hard evidence means its really easy to build speculation on speculation and have theories get wildly off the rails

dense cargo
#

Though I also think that (chapter 4 egg spoilers) ||What we see in the Egg room mostly reinforces the idea of the Man as being related to Kris' past?||

ripe harbor
#

the egg man ||at the least doesnt talk like Gaster, in some places directly inverted. Gaster only ever says DELTARUNE one word, the egg man adds a space etc||

ripe harbor
#

I dont have a strong take either way

dense cargo
#

||They are both "waiting" for Deltarune though||

ripe harbor
#

||The rooms being 'in between' or 'Nowhere' definitely also feels incredibly related to what happened to Gaster||

dense cargo
#

||Yeah, but then again there's other characters that are probably also nowhere (ie Dess)||

#

||And the UNUSED character||

#

||Which may be Dess, or the Egg Man, or someone else (probably Dess imo)||

#

||The big difference being that Dess is the opposite forgotten, since her absence hangs over the entire narrative||

ripe harbor
#

how many fucking missing persons cases can this town have Asgore do your job

dense cargo
#

||Hometown is just riddled with holes through reality, it's a major hazard||

lusty cypress
#

||Asgore with an actual gun rather than a trident could be cool||

timber widget
#

||Also I don't think I've seen anyone talk about it but I loooove Susie's whole "feeling self-conscious of her healing magic, then Gerson tricks her into getting good through practice" arc as a metaphor for writing fanfiction, bookended by his "the pen was lying there for the young ones to finish the story" line. It's so important to me||

wheat adder
inland hare
#

The seventh bullet

ripe harbor
#

||I like how he doesn't himself talk about breaking prophecy right out, but instead encourages you to read 'between the lines' and consider alternative interpretations, focusing on the meaning you make out of it instead of worrying about whats going to happen||

#

||and also the mentor arc||

lusty cypress
#

True. Pretty great

lusty cypress
low surge
#

Unrelated to anything but what music do you think the gang and associated characters listen to? Ralsei absolutely listens to vocaloids

lusty cypress
#

Susie openly talks of liking heavy metal, but secretly also likes music that's sweet and sappy (my head kept mixing that up with sapphic)

low surge
#

“Mixing up”

#

Ralsei also listens to lofi beats to study to I know what he is

timber widget
#

Ralsei listens to music he thinks Kris and Susie likes so he can perform it for them

low surge
#

I could see that, absolutely shocked by like some grindcore shit Susie plays and then being like “oh that’s… nice”

golden haven
#

I was today years old when i found out that drunk driver vehicular homicider asgore is a Meme

wheat adder
#

My headcanon is that Ralsei can hear the OST

tropic valve
lusty cypress
#

I prefer mad gunner asgore

#

||Knight has two holes in their hands||

#

Asgore's boss song will have gunshots as an instruments

wheat adder
lethal ferry
wheat adder
#

And it just exploded in popularity

#

Yes that

golden haven
wind sinew
#

Almost two decades old

lethal ferry
low surge
#

Oh I thought those memes were like a genuine spoiler I was mad at myself for seeing despite trying to block all sorts of keywords and shit

low surge
# lethal ferry

That’s fucking insane, i guess it tracks since that movie was on loop in the family car dvd player

lethal ferry
#

it would be really funny if the gif retroactively becomes a spoiler

#

bc of some shit in chapter 5 or 6

low surge
#

Okay that’s good

#

I was basically trying to block it out of my mind lol

golden haven
#

i am old and withered

inland hare
#

what's open season

ripe harbor
inland hare
#

oh send her family my condolences

low surge
#

And there was the shitty sequel we watched even more than the original

#

Apparently there was a 3rd but I never saw it

golden haven
lusty cypress
ripe harbor
#

this is the OG gif

#

hmm actually considering it ||I don't think Rudy as the Knight is super far fetched. I don't know if it beats dess, but I think it may beat Carol.||

analog burrow
ripe harbor
#

oh 100% I'm ||also ready for him to just have monster cancer||

sharp lodge
#

eh, ||i feel like there's never a satisfying answer for why the knight is so weird with rudy knight theory||

ripe harbor
#

||but he is given a lot of weight by the story. Looking for his actual dialogue, I found the gonermaker has special dialogue if you name yourself after him, but not if you name yourself after Carol. He's got more lightworld dialogue than most of the characters, shows up directly in chapter 4, and has more ties to Asgore (who seems to know more about whats going on, talking to his 'old friend') than his wife.||

analog burrow
ripe harbor
lethal ferry
#

||juicing himself up with darkness is what gave him magical cancer||

ripe harbor
#

I mean maybe!

#

I could buy it!

#

||moreso than his wife being so normal and the knight being like that, at least||

analog burrow
#

What the prophecy does to a mf

ripe harbor
#

same ||with the personalities. The knight is kinda sassy and kind of a troll||

#

you asked me before chapter 3 I'd say Rudy was 100% going to die / get worse to fuel Noelle's crash out. Now, I'm less sure.

analog burrow
#

Oh man, I wonder how ||Rudy is gonna react to Kris with Noelle at the festival in the weird route.||

#

||cause he certainly knows somethings up with Kris even if he isn’t the knight or anything||

#

Also been thinking about the ||Black Knife||

#

||A glass which obscures, and a glass that reveals…||

#

it’s a real head scratcher

restive comet
sharp lodge
#

reigen's VA did some chapter 3 voice acting for fun

white basalt
#

this va is having the time of his fucking life it sounds like

restive comet
#

I literally just saw that and it's beautiful

sharp lodge
#

removed that vid because i watched the vod of him playing it with 2 other people and they misgendered kris seemingly the whole time

clear frost
#

he will come for us

#

the bullets can't miss

silent oyster
#

I have finally finished chapter 3.

#

As got through secret ||section to get Shadow Mantle - Anxiety||

#

End of chapter 3 - ||ANXIETY||

velvet olive
wheat adder
#

Hmmm

#

Chapter 3 egg
||I'm here again, talking to egg man, and I noticed something. His schedule are tips to where to find the eggs in other chapters in sequence.||

#

|| On Thursday, he goes to sell the donuts.
On Friday, he tosses the leftovers in the dumpster.
On Saturday, he lets it cool on the windowsill.
On Sunday, he harvests the wheat.
Hold your breath, head to the left, and count backwards to 100.||

#

||It skips chapter 3
Thursday is clearly about chapter 1, Friday is chapter 2, and Saturday is Chapter 4
Chapter 3 is so weird because it's still "Friday" in game since this is the night right after the Library dark fountain.||

#

||So, Hold your breath, head to the left, and count backwards to 100, might be something to try in chapter 6… interesting.||

dense cargo
#

So people here probably already know this, but I just found out that (fountain stuff) ||the image in the background of the Dark Fountains, which shows up in a bunch of places throughout the game, is actually derived from a photo of the ocean. So add that to the pile of darkness-water connections.||

SPOILER_IMAGE_DEPTH.png SPOILER_320px-Supposed_origin_of_IMAGE_DEPTH.jpeg.webp
wheat adder
#

||Yeah I saw a video about that a week before the chapter 3&4 release I think? It's really interesting the pile of ocean/water/depths related stuff in the game||

wheat adder
#

Chapter 3
||Gosh I fucking love Tenna's battle theme||

strange cloud
#

Spoilers for chapters 3 and 4s music

wheat adder
#

||FIRST FUCKING TRY SINCE WEEK 1!!! THE KNIGHT IS A FRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAUD!||

SPOILER_image.png
#

||Weirdly enough it was Jevil that gave me trouble on this replay, but I think it's because I was sleep deprived that day||

lusty cypress
#

Anyway, chapter 5 speculation
||So the kingdom/castlevtheme is very obvious, considering the prophecy having asgore in a crown, the shop being "Flower King", the comparison with beauty and the beast. It fits his theme of law keeping and protection
But I'd really love if the Freeshooter theme was part of it. It would fit with how he was a cop and the theme of trying to "win" instead of accepting he can't change the past or return to how things were. He has to take responsibility for his failures.||

#

||Asgore: I was told, the shots of the six flowers shall help me defeat any threat to our Town and family. Finally, Toriel will see who I am, and we'll be a happy family again.
The seventh flower? Its power is not for me. A small price to pay||

#

||Susie: Kris, I thought kings used swords! Why the hell does your dad have a shotgun!||

ripe harbor
#

I'm still interested in how the ||Dark Worlds as escapism and fantasy thing is going to play out with the overall message of the story||

#

one thing I think people don't talk about ||is if theres a moral about growing up & moving on from the past, accepting reality - Dess would have to fit into it as part of the past to leave behind. ||

#

||Noelle letting susie play her guitar and not even mentioning her lost sister is healthier than Carol's Dess Shrine. And obsession with bringing Dess back isn't different from Asgore's desire to 'fix' his family.||

#

so idk

#

idk if that is a moral!

#

||Susie is the character who's consistently most fought for the Dark Worlds as 'real', and also is set up as the most traditionally heroic of the main cast. Shes not got the best engagement with them (thinking about kidnapping Gerson's ashes comes to mind lmao), but they're better than not for her, and give her options to actually be something other than an abused outsider kid. ||

lethal ferry
# ripe harbor idk if that is a moral!

I've actually been thinking about that one myself. ||It's not just that either. Susie mentions that she wants "tomorrow to be the same as yesterday" (might be paraphrasing). Tenna wanted people to watch him again. There's a lot of stuff about resisting change.||

ripe harbor
#

mhm

#

||And it doesnt seem to be a light versus dark thing exactly, because the dark worlds are what's letting people change, while its the Light World thats suffocatingly static - so whats that mean in terms of 'fantasy and reality' and coming of age?||

#

I dont think its going to be as simple as some reads end up

lethal ferry
#

||It could be a metatextual thing about how fiction can be used to help people come to terms with reality||

ripe harbor
#

||but to not lose yourself in obsession, I can see that. How do you resolve the relationship between the two worlds then, though?||

#

||After susie directly compares herself to Tenna at the end of chapter 3, you can't just seal away all Dark Worlds without having some Character Moments for her about it.||

lethal ferry
#

||I don't think all the dark worlds are going to be sealed away. The prophecy specifically mentions that multiple "worlds" will be saved.||

#

||Not just the light world||

#

||funnily enough, "worlds" being plural in the chapter 4 prophecy is different to how Ralsei tells it in chapter 1||

ripe harbor
#

I dont think they will be either

#

it seems to be ||one of the more common reads about the prophecy though||

#

but one of my hangups isn't the specific wording of it but moreso all the Vibes and Themes going on

lusty cypress
#

||Plus the problem is not dark worlds existing at all
The problem is the dark becoming too mcuh, flooding everything and making even fantasy impossible||

#

||Most people don't really pay attention and theorize on vibes and expectations||

lethal ferry
#

||my vibes are based on cold hard fact||

ripe harbor
#

like I think ||If you read them as 'purely escapism' and thus all the characters need to move on by the end, I think you gotta lump Dess into that pile too, otherwise your read seems a bit more incoherent.||

lusty cypress
#

||Just escapism doesn't work, since the darkners are shown to have feelings||

lethal ferry
#

||We also know pretty much fuck all about Dess||

ripe harbor
#

It feels like I accidentally weight trained in the years between chapter 2 and now

ripe harbor
#

||You can't just throw them all away now, without implicitly answering susie's trauma dumping with "You were broken."||

#

and that just doesn't seem like a likely message for the work to send lmao

ripe harbor
#

|| 😈 ||

#

anyway its all this that ironically (Chapter 4) ||makes me feel like ralsei is the 'safest' of the 3 heroes + noelle.||

lethal ferry
ripe harbor
#

||I don't think he would've been so beaten up if it was just him dying||

#

||though maybe they got a group sacrifice going on||

lusty cypress
ripe harbor
#

star rail?

#

people just really theorizing about secret actors and characters doing deep manipulation, but it doesn't seem to match the writing 99% of the time

#

imo predicting text isn't ever about how 'smart' you are

#

its really about just trusting the author(s) to pay off on stuff they set up

#

its why it was a really easy guess to say "hmm I think Dess will be more important going forward"

ripe harbor
lethal ferry
#

||The thing that I keep thinking about in regards to Ralsei is that his entire existence kinda contradicts any idea of free will? If his statement that their adventure is "foretold exactly by the prophecy" is correct, the next question we need to answer is how detailed the prophecy actually is.||

ripe harbor
#

||Without knowing the mechanics of it all, its hard to speculate. The prophecy seems to allow some element of choice in its wording, but only in the sense that it says "Your options are The World Ends or Prophecy steps"||

lethal ferry
#

||Jockington grows the beard||

#

||The girl||

ripe harbor
#

||so imo it reads almost like this is the one path to not having the world end, and its less that things are 100% foretold, and more that these things will happen if a specific ending is to be reached||

#

yeah

lethal ferry
#

there is so much weird shit going on.

ripe harbor
#

||Often the events of the prophecy coming to pass are directly related to choices the characters make though - Tenna wouldn't have been cleaved if Kris didn't open a Dark Fountain in their house.||

lethal ferry
#

at least we know there is enough fuel until chapter 5

lethal ferry
ripe harbor
#

||Its not a sort of fate that was forced to happen, but it did happen and happens in all playthroughs of the game||

#

||but you could imagine Kris could've just not done that, right?||

#

this is an actual discussion on freedom though

#

If someone will always make a certain decision, due to their circumstances and character, were they free to make other choices?

lethal ferry
ripe harbor
#

Or did their self lock them in anyway, because they can't help but be who they are?

lethal ferry
#

i love discussions about determinism

ripe harbor
#

||Kris didn't need the make the Dark Fountain in a physical sense, but they were always going to (to Find Dess? To work with the person on the phone (Carol?))||

#

stuff like that

lethal ferry
#

||Lancer was always going to say "toothpaste" and then "boy"||

ripe harbor
#

real

#

also ||theres some playing with prophecy as an encouraging thing in chapter 4||

#

||Susie saying "We're heroes, and theres a lot of stuff written about us that hasn't happened yet-" thats her trying to gain strength from having a foretold fate!||

#

||'We can't die here because surely the prophecy isn't wrong'||

lethal ferry
#

tbh the most interesting thing to me is ||how prevalent the idea of trying to achieve freedom is in a story where, presumably, any action is predetermined.||

lusty cypress
ripe harbor
#

more pathos that way

lusty cypress
#
  • A force puts things on track, influencing events to course correct
#
  • Deeply accurate prediction that accounts for knowledge of it
ripe harbor
#

||The razor edge between 'you are responsible for everything in your life, failure is a skill difference, you deserve what you get' and 'nothing else could've been done, there was no way to make it out, there is no other end for you'||

lusty cypress
#

In the gacha hsr, it's implied destiny is

  • A force of placebo and bias built off knowledge and experience. It gets metaphysical weight because there's a parallel plane of thoughts and memories affecting the universe
#

Oh god of war ragnarok has a cool variant

lethal ferry
ripe harbor
#

Ragnarok is almost what I mean about 'internal' fate

#

its fated to happen because of the choices people will make, because of who they are

#

not because you're literally forced

lusty cypress
#

In ragnarok

  • Fate is born of prediction and character flaws. The norns know gods are stubborn, so any tragedy born of their flaws is almost assured to happen
ripe harbor
#

which doesnt make it less fated

ripe harbor
lethal ferry
ripe harbor
#

it reads as ||Gaster(?) having 'seen' it happen, and recording it, more than trying to force something to happen||

ripe harbor
lusty cypress
ripe harbor
#

||but even still, thats a choice to engage with the prophecy for their own ends(?), if they intentionally set themselves up as the cage(?)||

lethal ferry
#

||there is a pretty common trope in prophecy-based stories where those attempting to prevent a prophecy are the ones that cause the events to happen.||

ripe harbor
#

||If the prophecy involves Susie fighting against the others, I could very easily see that||

lusty cypress
#

Plus, there are people trying to intentionally use the prophecy, and perhaps that helps make it stronger
The wishes and belief

ripe harbor
#

||because she is going to be pissed when she starts learning stuff||

lethal ferry
#

||"Nothing pisses me off more than people who don't tell me the whole deal"||
||Ralsei and Kris: "..."||

inland hare
#

My personal opinion on prophecies is that if it doesn’t take into account people trying to avert it after learning of it it’s not a prophecy at all

#

Prophecies should be unerring

ripe harbor
#

I think you can have a conditional one

#

and still be prophetic

#

"If X happens so will Y"

#

but that part would also need to be unerring

inland hare
#

Well yeah

#

I like the Norns in god of war tbh

lusty cypress
#

Like, I think ideals, desires and flaws is a fitting theme to base the prophecy off
The meta theme could instead be that history simply does not have the resources/assets to have more events and outcomes. It lets people change things on small scale but is simply uncapable of great variety
The mystical sci-fi theme would instead be the prediction/peering forward in spacetime

lusty cypress
inland hare
#

Of course considering prophecies in deltarune include ||jockington growing a beard I think Deltarune version of prophecy is just acausally correct||

ripe harbor
#

||The only wiggly bit there is if the prophecy is intended to be wobbly on characters like 'the girl' or 'the cage'||

inland hare
#

Best you can do is ||try to reinterpret it||

lusty cypress
ripe harbor
#

||like a script, where you can change actors, but the scenes still progress the same way||

inland hare
#

Direct attempts ||to oppose it will probably fall flat||

ripe harbor
#

through the power of horrific gaslighting many things become possible

inland hare
#

Maybe we could tie up jockington and force him to get electrolysis

lethal ferry
#

||weird route ends with kris shaving jockington||

lusty cypress
#

||The rebellion against the prophecy will probably be a bunch of small moments, leading to, in the good ending, a small post ending scene that implies things ended better||

ripe harbor
lethal ferry
#

||jockington shows up in the chapter 7 darkworld without a beard. ralsei has a heart attack and dies||

ripe harbor
#

btw the ||beads being in the hospital, and getting further mention in chapter 4 with 'dark bead' as a title is also what got me squint about Rudy maybe being a more important character than he seems||

#

Ralsei actually doesn't need his body the reason he appears in every dark world is he possesses a new plushie of his scattered around the town

#

thats a #lorefact

#

if you kill him he just moves to another

lusty cypress
#

||I love the idea ralsei wanders those wastelands that might be between dark worlds, soloing monstrosities of the dark||

inland hare
#

Reason why our Lv rises is because ||Ralsei spends the time after sealing dark fountains just exterminating eldritch abominations in the wastes||

lethal ferry
#

i was wondering ||where all that exp came from||

ripe harbor
lusty cypress
#

||Ralsei casting Gigaflare offscreen||

ripe harbor
#

||Or the act of sealing brings out more of the souls power?||

lusty cypress
#

||One hypothesis I have is the villains maybe wanting to leak darkness in a controlled way instead of a full on roaring||

ripe harbor
#

||especially if they want to dig deep for Dess or something, yeah||

#

idk

lusty cypress
#

||If a dark fountain only floods an area, maybe a bunch of mini vents could leak it out||

ripe harbor
#

heres my question, ||Why do the chapter 3 darkners start turning to stone?||

lusty cypress
#

||In a spread way||

ripe harbor
#

||especially ones you'd expect to 'fit'||

inland hare
#

Personally I blame Ishmael for that

lusty cypress
inland hare
#

Well that ||particular remote guy came from Noelle’s house I think||

#

Not sure about others

ripe harbor
#

||the weird ice-effect starts to cover everything around the same time, I can't help but feel they're connected||

#

||its like the nature of the dark world either changed, or reverted, or something||

#

especially ||with those Shuttahs talking about 'before Tenna'||

inland hare
ripe harbor
inland hare
#

And its ||determination basically overwrote Kris’?||

lusty cypress
#

||First, you see those wastelands from ralsei's world. No other dark world let you go on those
Second, the whole area gets covered in a weird vibe
Third, those dice guys seem to come from castle town. So they are from school rather than home, but didn't become stome
Fourth, the snow area is just plain weird, breaking into a black featureless area where you meet the knight and the door||

lusty cypress
# ripe harbor especially ||with those Shuttahs talking about 'before Tenna'||

||Another thing. When things got overhauled, a bunch of darkners moved away, who were from the black and white days.
So, it was a change of TV and programming, and probably a change in the home dynamics as the kids came. Thus the kitchen was overwritten by the stage
But then, isn't a dark world "changing" (as much as they can have a past) natural?
What was different about that change, that the Pippin was concerned and telling you to seal the fountain fast?
Did the knight do something to the Fountain?||

ripe harbor
#

||If something is 'damaged' by dark worlds getting made or sealed at all, the weirdness at the end of chapter 3 is where I feel like I'd look. It was just very strange.||

#

||Like the whole dark world was just collapsing back into darkness||

lusty cypress
#

||Perhaps
Maybe Kris' fountain was defective
Perhaps due to having determination but no soul
Perhaps the knight is just better at it than kris and susie||

ripe harbor
#

actually thats another thing @inland hare, ||Susie's fountain seemed almost acausal the way the fountain she didnt make had Darkners from the fountain she would make later||

#

||when it comes to the relationship between prophecy and darkness, thats notable. Stuff in the dark worlds might already be impacted by the future when they're made||

lusty cypress
#

||back on that post by vgfm about alvin. While alvin is not the knight, perhaps dess was close to gerson?
The theory went that the knight was picking places related to him, and got interrupted by berdly in the library
Dess' connection could have been a factor in reviving gerson||

lusty cypress
#

||It's interesting to think how the Sanctuaries 1 and 2 form a circle, then 3 has both "eras" meet||

#

One organikk says

#

||They are at best, different sides of the same dream||

inland hare
#

Oh yeah Toriel apparently ||was a party animal|| according to Rudy

#

That kinda explains some things

lusty cypress
inland hare
#

I think

#

Deltarune might be taking advantage of some of our assumptions based on us having played undertale before

#

To subvert our expectations

#

Because we played undertale we are predisposed to consider the world from Kris’s perspective

#

But I think that approach is heavily flawed in deltarune ||because Kris has specific agendas of their own ||

#

It can’t be expressed in the binary of ||Kris is just a person who’s forced into acting a particular manner by us||

#

It’s only partially true

#

Basically ||our experience with undertale means we are so concerned with playing as Kris and understanding things from Kris’s perspectives and trying to do what Kris would do in a way that’s both inaccurate to Kris and also eliminates your Self as a character||

sharp lodge
inland hare
#

Honestly ||it looks like she’s got a source of that dark juice inside her heart||

sharp lodge
#

||what makes you say that?||

lusty cypress
low surge
#

Just started chapter 4, already some big stuff and haven’t even gone to the dark world yet || Ralseis room was depressing, but I’m glad that Susie is consistently pushing against his “purpose” thing ||

#

|| enjoying the goblinesque antics of Kris and Susie, absolute menaces ||

sharp lodge
#

||is it just me, or do the titanspawn look kinda like off enemies?||

inland hare
lusty scarab
inland hare
#

||Kris has definite agency||

#

And try as we might

#

We can’t actually form a moral system around another person

#

It’s a disservice to both ourselves and the other

low surge
wheat adder
# inland hare To subvert our expectations

||That's less a might and more just confirmed. I remember an interview with Toby that I've seen around where he just says in Chapter 1 he presented things in such a way that for the first few minutes of gameplay you would believe this is a sequel or directly related to Undertale.||

inland hare
#

Yeah

wheat adder
#

Tricky Tony at it again

lusty scarab
#

Does this mean Frisk was just a random corpse-puppet we controlled

#

I wonder

wheat adder
#

||Also related to the Kris discussion above, I think I've come to believe Kris isn't even soulless anymore. We are an entity that's controlling their soul.||

#

I've honestly come to agree with the Kris is Frisk theory

lusty scarab
#

Well, kinda but not

#

||We ARE the soul||

inland hare
#

No real agenda of their own meaning people could project whatever they wanted on them

#

You really can’t do the same with Kris

#

Kris has ||plans they just don’t tell you||

#

But more to the point

#

||to I think truly engage with the medium in deltarune we have to accept that we ourselves are a distinct character who can be allowed to have goals, aspirations, and hopes of our own as distinct and separate from Kris’||

dense cargo
lusty scarab
#

||I'm at the point where like, my goal isn't really to pacifistically complete the game, but to make Kris' time the least painful as possible||

inland hare
#

My goal is as always

#

Curiosity haha

#

Within reason.

lusty scarab
#

I don't wanna be evil :c

inland hare
#

I’m not evil, I just do what I want

#

||and I kinda don’t wanna be needlessly cruel||

wheat adder
lusty scarab
#

I'm surprised the Weird route is as dark as it is tbh

#

I feel like ||the bathroom scene|| is such a brutal and personal condemnation that the Genocide route never really got

inland hare
#

Yeah

#

And it’s fully deserved

lusty scarab
#

100%

inland hare
#

But also made me think

#

||that whatever Kris wants us to do, they deem potentially corrupting Noelle to be sacrifice they are willing to accept||

wheat adder
# wheat adder ||I'm not nearly as good at explaining it as actually smart people so I'll just ...

||https://youtu.be/dC73FZ9QgdI?si=vK3fvJol1qWsUDKN||

YouTube
golden_anomaly
KRIS IS FRISK - Deltarune Theory

Kris Dreemurr is Frisk's Deltarune counterpart, allow me to tell you why!

Check out Nohaj's channel for more discussion about Kris/Frisk/Chara, as well as some other fun videos! https://youtube.com/@N0hajah0N

Check out my socials to see my cool art!
Twitter/X: https://x.com/golden_anomaly
Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/goldenanomaly.bsky.s...

▶ Play video
inland hare
#

Which makes me ||wonder what else they are willing to sacrifice||

lusty scarab
#

Oh this is 2 hours

wheat adder
#

Yeah sorry lmao

lusty scarab
#

I ain't able to watch that

wheat adder
#

I watched it a while ago

dense cargo
inland hare
#

Oh huh

#

I think

#

I have a viable theory

#

For why your choices don’t matter

#

||broken relationships strengthen you||

#

||which is why violently chasing off darkness strengthen you||

wheat adder
#

But yeah, like it's not that Kris is exactly Frisk
In the same way these aren't the same Dreemur family exactly
All the UT and DR characters are slightly different
So it's less Kris is exactly Frisk and more Kris is the AU equivalent of Frisk. Instead of Chara or a fully new character

inland hare
#

||to become strong enough, you must shatter every relationship you have||

#

||say, by closing the school fountain and killing every darkener within||

#

||thereby turning your choice to save or not save irrelevant by the end||

wheat adder
#

Another thing that kinda, made it for me is the FUN value clam girl in UT

#

Talking to Frisk how they should meet their neighbour's kid, Suzy, because she thinks you'd make good friends
And the Switch version of the game the clam girl has uuuuh, a very interesting interaction

#

She turns into a goner and says that the time to meet Suzy is "fast approaching"
The switch version came out a month before chapter 1 I think?

inland hare
#

I think she’s speaking to Us tbh

#

||Not Frisk||

wheat adder
#

||Every character in the game talks to Frisk except for like, Chara? It'd be weird for a single character to not, but I guess?||

inland hare
#

I mean she’s also a goner so I don’t see why she should obey the laws of monsters and men

dense cargo
#

Yeah the Goners are special, and their dialogue isn't explicitly addressed to either Frisk or us

wheat adder
#

Another interesting argument I've heard is why would Susie's name be Suzy in UT while everyone else has the same 1:1 names
Excited Frisk, who has an anagram name minus the F

dense cargo
#

There is one other character with a different name

wheat adder
#

Pizzapants?

dense cargo
#

The world famous Terry

wheat adder
#

Oh right

#

I thought Terry was just a different character to Jerry tbh lol

dense cargo
#

Also in the library books there is a Hots Fireguy, as opposed to Heats Flamesman

#

But more seriously, these are all joke characters, and it is odd that Susie's the only prominent character with a different name.

lusty cypress
strange cloud
#

While the genocide route is metatextually the idea of wanting to see everything in a game

inland hare
strange cloud
#

The weird route is metatextually wanting to see everything, for these characters

#

You aren’t doing the weird route because you want to experience the whole game, you’re doing it to see how Kris and Noelle specifically respond

#

Watching as you exploit the rules of the world they live in

lusty cypress
strange cloud
#

The weird route is about breaking free of the prophecy, in essence “for” these characters

#

And while I believe it will result in the prophecy anyway, you are still in a way at least trying to grant them freedom from their role

dense cargo
#

In practice, I'd think the reasons people do the weird route is not so different from the ones for genocide route

#

As you said, seeing everything

inland hare
#

Simple curiosity

strange cloud
#

Im kinda making the distinction because the genocide route while optional is also like, obviously there? Like in a game where killing is an optional, the obvious answer to if you kill enough is you’ll eventually kill then all

#

Snowgrave however is not an obvious extension of deltarune’s game mechanics

inland hare
#

Speaking of curiosity

lusty cypress
#

I can see weird route as being about control

strange cloud
#

It’s a secret hidden thing, something that wasn’t known at all before the community found it

dense cargo
#

Well isn't that even more so? At the beginning you're told you choices don't matter, so you want to see for yourself if it's true.

inland hare
#

||Friend is cat shaped so why is it not friend||

#

If ||not friend why friend shaped||

crystal shale
#

If not friend why friend shaped

tidal fox
inland hare
#

It really do be like that

#

But it’s ultimately

#

An inevitable consequence of the assertion that choice has no meaning

strange cloud
inland hare
#

If choices don’t matter neither does the weird route

dense cargo
#

Tbf we also did the same thing in the videogame where our choices were supposed to matter

strange cloud
#

Also Chatroom, I’m writing a thematic analysis of Deltarune’s idea of freedom and I need a good title for it

#

Rn all I have is Deltarune and Freedom through violence but that feels wordy and maybe to much like a K6BD reference

dense cargo
#

You could do something with "the air crackles with freedom" maybe?

strange cloud
#

Hmm

inland hare
strange cloud
ripe harbor
ripe harbor
ripe harbor
ripe harbor
#

theres some metaphysical incompatibility there. Thats all well and good advice if the setting is wrapped around giving you power for doing that,

#

what if its not enough?

dense cargo
strange cloud
#

We actually see Berdly’s white knight persona drop and he genuinely becomes concerned for Noelle

ripe harbor
#

(A message that can be incredibly hopeful can also scan as completely delusional, and not much else needs to change)

#

also (Chapter 4) I was looking in the a text dump for ||Gerson dialogue|| and theres another version of ||the prophecy in here. Only minorly different at the start, though.||

#

(it continues as normal)

#

(though, the ||heroes arent actually numbered at all in this version, which might imply it was a very intentional decision to add those & shuffle the order.||)

timber widget
ripe harbor
wheat adder
#

It just kinda hit me… (chapter 4)
||Maybe the reason Gerson tries to mentor Susie from the get go is because she was crying next to his grave? She talks about how she was one day crying at the cemetery bench when Toriel met her the first time…||

#

||The thought is kinda sweet even if maybe unlikely||

strange cloud
#

Chatroom I’m seeing takes that Kris allowed Snowgrave to happen because they’re secretly evil

#

We’re regressing in real time to chapter 1 discourse

sharp lodge
strange cloud
sharp lodge
#

but they don't in dark worlds, probably for a reason

strange cloud
#

Also like, they still clearly need to the soul

#

Not even for whatever their plan is

#

Just in general

#

They’re visibly weaker without it and Noelle mentions ||their voice as weak and shaking||

#

Like, they will still probably die if they rip us out for to long

low surge
vocal elbow
#

Hey now, one of those is true.

#

Kris would say fuck

strange cloud
#

me, forcing a teenager to kill their friend

Look at this sick fuck

low surge
#

Kris would sing swears

strange cloud
#

They killed their friend!

#

Me when ||a literal demon taunts Kris’s mentally troubled state by claiming they actually enjoyed snowgrave||

||this is clearly the most trust worthy person||

low surge
#

Yuuuup

white basalt
low surge
#

Kris Is Bad And Other Statements From People That Can’t Read

#

Maybe a bit too harsh

strange cloud
#

||“The part of you you can claim wasn’t you”||

This clearly means Kris is a sociopath and secretly wanted all that to happen

low surge
#

|| I always trust the words of mysterious cloaks inside secret games that force me to kill in order to progress ||

strange cloud
#

So true!

sharp lodge
low surge
#

|| let’s not forget Kris literally TURNS AWAY when you “kill” Susie and Ralsei in the game, no I don’t think they secretly hate their friends and want to murder them for funsies ||

strange cloud
low surge
#

|| Kris’ relationship with Ralsei is interesting and I wonder how it’s going to develop further but I really don’t think there is any strong evidence they hate him (far as I have gotten in ch4 before the dark world) ||

sharp lodge
strange cloud
#

For real

#

Like, ||that’s just people wanting fraud knight to be real and not just a meme||

sharp lodge
#

||i don't think kris hates ralsei, they just didn't like him as much as their other friends but they seem to come around on him by chapter 4||

strange cloud
#

||it’s so obviously not Kris because RALSEI SEES THE ATTACK||

#

||HE WAS CONSCIOUS WHEN SUSIE WAS KNOCKED OUT||

sharp lodge
#

||ralsei can be a doormat sometimes but i don't think he'd take a betrayal lying down||

strange cloud
#

Same

#

He’d at least like, comment on it

#

Like question it

wheat adder
#

The average reading comprehension of the average UT/DR Reddit theorist is uuuh very low

low surge
#

|| an interesting thing at the start of ch4 is how Susie confuses a picture of Asriel for Ralsei, and Kris seems to start listing off differences. Like I still think Kris on some level at least is okay with Ralsei, but maybe they’re put off by his seeming similarities (even if only superficial) to Asriel and their complicated relationship with him ||

low surge
wheat adder
#

Tru

strange cloud
wheat adder
#

I go there for memes

low surge
#

Engaging with this fandom can be a bit much, especially on Reddit

#

Here has been probably my favorite place to discuss

strange cloud
low surge
#

I can see that

#

I do lean that direction

#

That he’s either the horns or maybe a drawing in green crayon. Maybe both since he has the pink horns?

strange cloud
#

Like Kris has terminal little sibling disease where they both want to be their cool older sibling but also never want to be their cool older sibling