Undertale and Deltarune

[ripe harbor]

||(on the Dess unused thing)||

[inland hare]

yeah this is one of my main reasons ||why I don't think knight is Dess||

||Dess seems trapped in a way the Knight is not||

[ripe harbor]

||It could be the Knight is some sort of echo of Dess, in the same way Gerson is explicitly a Darkner||

[inland hare]

it could alternatively be ||Dess's body being remotely controlled by something else||

[ripe harbor]

||but 'wrong' because whatever reason you want||

[inland hare]

||In a manner parallel to how there's an entity controlling the shadow mantle or how you are controlling Kris||

[ripe harbor]

||Like an attempt to bring Dess back that hasn't gone far enough yet||

[sharp lodge]

||the knight has too much personality though. they taunt susie at one point||

[sage needle]

||That's a fair point disembodied souls probably wouldn't aura farm so much||

[ripe harbor]

maybe you wouldn't. I'm ||hitting the wavedash on this emo teen watch my footwork||

[ripe harbor]

this + ||the eye roll in chapter 4 are actually the strongest points towards it being dess imo. They just act like what you'd expect her to act like.||

[inland hare]

I think the opposite though!

[gilded canopy]

My assertion is that this isn't a temporally normal interaction. ||She could be speaking from when she was lost, and that is not necessarily happening right now, it's just that the datamining is interacting with that time period instead of the present.||

[inland hare]

I think those are ||like entirely opposite of how I'd expect Dess to act like||

unless ||she went through massive shift in personality you probably wouldn't expect someone trapped in the dark world to taunt puny teenagers or manipulate Kris||

[dense cargo]

||What is your opinion as to who could the Knight be?||

[sage needle]

||Well this is assuming she was trapped in a bad dark world. We don't not know that she didn't have her own wacky adventures when she went missing||

||(She was probably trapped in a bad dark world)||

[dense cargo]

||Technically, this is assuming that the place she ended up is/was a dark world. She could have gone somewhere even worse||

[inland hare]

||Honestly no idea. My crackpot theory is that the Knight is a remote body and that multiple people could be the Knight. Asriel is my second guess, considering the Knight's seeming fixation upon Toriel and Deltarune's plot structure so far as being Undertale in reverse order||

[tropic valve]

My theory is that the Knight is ||Carol||

[inland hare]

if multiple people, ||one of the people behind the Knight is probably Carol yeah||

[gilded canopy]

I highly doubt that ||Dess got out of the situation all that mentally well if she becomes the knight.

Given the Knight has seemingly villainous objectives, anyone who is the knight has obviously ended justifying that this is the correct answer.||

[sage needle]

||I respect people who think the Knight is Carol but I think it's way too obvious for it to just be Carol. Like either it's not Carol or it's multiple people||

[inland hare]

yeah but it's just off to me

[gilded canopy]

Like, the ||Knight's torso is a ribcage with a sphere inside, nobody like that is in a mentally good place.

I would just assert that if it is her, she's been twisted heavily.||

[sage needle]

||It's like we're only halfway through the mystery and colonel mustard was found with a gun. We still have half a movie left so let's not assume it's mustard||

[dense cargo]

||Personally, I think none of the candidates for being the Knight match up perfectly with how we see the Knight behave, but Dess is the only one who could have experienced a sufficient shift in personality as to become the Knight||

[inland hare]

Dess is simultaneously ||too obvious and also too perplexing to be the knight in my head||

||Kris would have to be a real dumbass to be manipulated by Dess of all people||

[dense cargo]

||Carol's too serious and stoic, and Asriel's behaviour as described is antipodes to what the Knight does and how it acts||

[sage needle]

||Well that's assuming they're being manipulated. Kris could just be working with the Knight directly||

[lusty cypress]

||You think carol, who has a katana and luxurious house, would not be smug in her secret villain identity?||

[gilded canopy]

I feel like Toby Fox has never given a fuck about being too obvious

||For what it is worth, I recently learned that there's some Asriel-related stuff in Dess's room, so the two were clearly at least friends. The Knight's final attack vaguely resembles one from the first phase of Asriel's fight.||

[dense cargo]

||It's probably not just Dess, Carol and Asgore would have to be involved to some degree, right?||

[tropic valve]

The reason I think it's ||Carol is because I think Dess disappeared into the Dark World and never came back. We don't know that Carol has always been the mean-ass that she is now, and it's possible that she's trying to create more Dark Worlds to find Dess. It also tracks with how she dragged Undyne into the dark world in the shelter. Y'know. The place that very few people, excluding Carol, have access to. We saw Kris make a Dark World, too, or at least their body. So like, knowing that Carol is at least working with Kris' vessel means that she likely knows about them in the first place.

My other weird theory is that the Knight could actually be the original body that the SOUL belonged to, now in the Dark World.||

[gilded canopy]

||I think there's a few different people in on the plan that Kris is caught up in and not necessarily just the Knight.||

Most of what I see is theorizing ||that if carol isn't the knight, she's still in on the plan||

[tropic valve]

That's probably my biggest questions of all, is ||where did the body for this soul come from||

[inland hare]

If Dess is involved, ||I don't think Asgore is too deeply involved||

it would conflict with his overall motivation

[vocal elbow]

||What if the Knight is the discarded Vessel.||

[sage needle]

||it could be||

[dense cargo]

||He's aware of the shards, at least. Apart from that, he might be kept in the dark||

[dense cargo]

||It could be, but then why the antlers?||

[tropic valve]

Yeah, the Knight being ||the previous body belonging to the soul you play as would be a neat twist||

[vocal elbow]

||They look neat?||

[gilded canopy]

Asgore seems more like someone ||who is going to trip over the plan, because he clearly cannot put Dess's disappearance behind him||

[tropic valve]

I mean it could just be a style thing yeah

[inland hare]

I think ||asgore and carol are probably closely cooperating||

[dense cargo]

||It would be pretty funny if the antlers on the Knight were completely unrelated to the one very prominent antlered family in town. Though I wouldn't put it past Fox I guess.||

[inland hare]

which also makes me think the ||actual Dess isn't involved||

[gilded canopy]

He clearly is ||trying to get more answers out of the Holiday home than Carol might be wanting him to.||

[dense cargo]

||Still think there's too much evidence for the Knight being at least related to the Holidays, even if it isn't straightforwardly one of them||

[inland hare]

not necessarily

[gilded canopy]

||He's cleaning their bathroom for cash, sure, but also has a secondary objective of rummaging through Carol and Rudy's room in the dark for answers while carrying a black shard, and has a conspiracy board in his house.||

||I do not believe he is on a mission for answers, for a plan he would supposedly already know about||

[dense cargo]

||Like, there's the appearence, the Bat/Sword, the cold association, the snowflakes, and the motifs in Black Knife||

[gilded canopy]

||He is definitely out of the loop and trying to bust it wide open.||

[low surge]

I’ve concluded that my headcanon voice for Spamton is just every Jack Stauber voice

He’s just Micropop

[sour mesa]

||What's the exact black shard quote?||

[sharp lodge]

||how would kris and the vessel know each other?||

[sharp lodge]

||carol also has a conspiracy board, and her and asgore are working on something together that toriel doesn't approve of||

||this makes me think the knight isn't carol becuase if she was the knight she'd have enough of the pieces to not need a conspriacy board||

[dense cargo]

||I don't think Carol's the Knight because of this||

[gilded canopy]

Fair enough

[strange cloud]

Yah we can ||safely say Carol isn’t the knight because she cannot be both at her home punishing Noelle and at the church during chapter 4||

||Its impossible||

[sour mesa]

||mayor money lets her go really fast though||

[strange cloud]

||that and with the knight having so many holiday motifs, and specifically Dess related motifs, like I don’t think it’s an argument anymore. It’s Dess. It’s really just a question of why, what and how now.||

||I think arguing over the knight’s identity still is missing the forest for the trees||

||Its almost certainly Dess, the question is now why it’s Dess and what she’s doing||

[strange cloud]

That is true the ||mayor money is a powerful tool||

[dense cargo]

||I guess it could make some sense if the Knight is remote controlled as some people have suggested, but like||

||The timing would still be weird||

[strange cloud]

||Im gonna be honest, I don’t think that’s true because that’s dumb||

||Like I don’t think Toby would write that||

[dense cargo]

||The idea does feel a bit silly||

[strange cloud]

||also it means Carol was chewing out Noelle while fighting the fun gang||

||Which feels even weirder||

[dense cargo]

||Or she wrapped up her little talk with Noelle extremely fast, which would feel very out of character||

[strange cloud]

Yah

[dense cargo]

||But if it is Dess, and I think it's most likely to be, the question of who is talking in the UNUSED code remains||

[strange cloud]

||I think it is still Dess, just a flashback of Dess||

||Like assuming Dess was warped into the knight over the years she was trapped in the dark, which seems reasonable, the text in the code reads to me like what she was experiencing when she first fell in||

||It sounds to me like someone who just got trapped in wherever they are and is scared and alone||

[dense cargo]

||But it's probable that the scratching sound she hears is us right? Wouldn't that imply some weird stuff about the chronology of it?||

[strange cloud]

||and like, it’s datamined text. There’s no reason it has to be happening concurrently with the chapters. It’s not actually placed anywhere in the narrative||

[gilded canopy]

Yeah, I agree that datamining is not going to have results that are intended to be taken as the present.

[strange cloud]

It’s possible but it could just be ||one of the other things in the dark, like it could be friend or Eram, these entities that exist somewhere beyond the normal dark world||

[dense cargo]

||Then again, if it is Dess (and it couldn't really be anyone else), it's obvious that the text for Ch 1 couldn't have taken place during Ch 1||

[gilded canopy]

||They're buried. It's not going to be something concurrent. It's something that was already lost.||

[dense cargo]

||It's true, I just thought it made sense for it to be us, since we are listening to her, in some way||

[dense cargo]

||So the chronology of the thing probably doesn't follow linearly, or rather is buried as has been said, which makes sense when you're stuck outside space and time||

[gilded canopy]

I particularly support the ||Dess Knight|| theory because ||it makes the Knight's final attack similarity meaningful.

Dess and Asriel clearly knew each other very well and this would represent some of that by using Undertale's imagery.||

[strange cloud]

Same

[dense cargo]

Agreed

[strange cloud]

I believe in ||the haunting the narrative couple||

[dense cargo]

||I guess you could also count it as evidence of it being Asriel, but I just don't buy that as true||

[strange cloud]

||Asriel knight to me anyway kinda feels like a twist for the sake of it tbh||

||Like everything that points towards Asriel points towards Dess more and also you have to ignore what we already know about Asriel for it to be true||

[dense cargo]

||Apart from the vague star motif, nothing about the Knight says Asriel to me, as opposed to the wealth of Dess stuff||

||And the personality matches far less than Dess' does||

[sharp lodge]

unrelated detail i just heard about: chapter 3 and 4 detail ||there's new dialog for if you try to throw away the glass shards in the light world. in chapter 1 and 2 it's "you didn't quite understand why... but the thought of throwing it away seemed very wrong." in chapter 3 and 4 specifically it's now "for some reason you felt like if you throw it away.... it would be like throwing away someone's..... ??? but you didn't fully understand it"||

[dense cargo]

||Also having Asriel be the main villain of both UT and DR seems a bit unlikely||

||It would be doing the same twist twice||

[gilded canopy]

Whether or not ||dessriel is canon is a separate matter but I will fight for it regardless

The tragedy that happened to someone Asriel was close with is already strong enough, knowing that he could even be using College as a form of escape from the little town with a personally disturbing missing person case.

Add on a relationship and you jack that little number to "oh god, asriel must be devastated"||

[sharp lodge]

continuing ||someone had a theory in the comments of the video i saw about this that said "what if it's a piece of someone's soul?" interesting idea, but we'll have to see if that can even happen||

[strange cloud]

Yah, ||Dess and Asriel being a couple just feels like another thing that Dess disappearing broke.||

[gilded canopy]

||a lost friendship is bad enough, dessriel makes that a downright perfect tragedy.||

My favorite thing pointed out to me so far is that Deltarune ||joins the ranks of indie games about a small town with a deeply disturbing tragedy hidden in it||

[strange cloud]

||Are there small towns in stories that don’t have deeply disturbing tragedies in them?||

||I feel like that’s a staple of towns about small towns tbh||

[gilded canopy]

||fair enough, still funny||

[ripe harbor]

The reason I think it isn't ||Carol is that the knight is really fucked up in a way you don't see any other Lightner in Dark Worlds. Nearly inhuman- er, monster? The point is I'd expect them to be noticably weird in the Light World too.||

[ripe harbor]

it does ||pose its knife in a pretty similar way to how Kris does in earlier chapters, and also has the strong red association||

||Could be some sort of dark amalgam of 'lost' things, pulling from Dess and the Vessel, which was discarded||

[strange cloud]

Also yah, ||I don’t think it can be Carol, Asgore or Rudy simply because I refuse to believe whatever the knight is it still has a normal light world form. It being a normal lightner outside the dark world doesn’t feel right at all||

[ripe harbor]

Interesting!

||I've been wondering if the shadow crystals are related to the dark / star elemental theming by being fragments of a fallen star or something||

[velvet olive]

||Carol just has a dark magical girl transformation :3||

[ashen tide]

hey so like

i was watching Salty's video

and he edited a thing that i didn't noticed before

and I hate that I can't unsee it now

Chapter 3 Spoiler

he's basically doing this pose

[rain barn]

I refuse to believe that's unintentional given the specific hand positioning

[lusty scarab]

https://youtube.com/shorts/OlZqs43Qp2I?si=ti6rTTFXO637mJhO

[sharp lodge]

https://www.tumblr.com/pinkertalerune/786839362543501312?source=share

[lusty cypress]

Is there anyone who likes berdly at this point?

[white basalt]

depends what you mean by "like". he's certainly a well-written portrayal of a certain sort of self-aggrandizing teenage nerd

[sharp lodge]

i like berdly, he's not too bad

[ashen tide]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjoMY_SThUQ

Like him purely for this

Snowgrave spoilers

[ripe harbor]

He kinda locks the fuck in the weird route, which earns him back some points

[sinful crag]

hes my favorite chud son

he's weird and endearing and like, despite some of his social faux pas, noelle does still LIKE him as a friend, he just

needs some communication skills

[sage needle]

||I can't wait to force Kris to go to the festival with Berdly||

[low surge]

|| WHAT THE FUCK THE KNIGHT?!?!?!??!?!!!? ||

|| What the FUCK is going on???? ||

[low surge]

|| Does anyone have any tips on how to not get completely rinsed by the knight because I’m not lasting more than 4 turns on average ||

[low surge]

I am burghlys strongest soldier

[fluid path]

ch3 super boss: ||if you're on mkb I suggest using a controller. did you get S rank during the game show section segments?||

[low surge]

|| Yeah s rank, ive got the shadow mantel im just doodoo at dodging ||

[fluid path]

maybe watch a video to see how other players did it. you may have to get better at dodging.
ch3 super boss || for the screen splitter, get on the wall away from the slash after dodging the falling rocks. for the lasers, you have to hit the direction that's off the axis the moment they turn red. for the sword corridor, try nudging the stick instead of pushing it down. I think the star fall and cross slash are pretty trivial comparatively.||

all that said I'm still in the middle of fighting it. I've tried probably 20 times now. but I'm getting close
ch 3 super boss ||you only have to do 25% of its bar to get the shadow crystal is what I've been told||

[low surge]

|| the rocks attack is what consistently given me issues. Sword corridor i kinda get it I assume I should be looking forwards instead of directly at the soul in order to see what’s actually coming instead of just responding to damage. ||

|| only 25% is a lot better than the whole thing, hope that’s the case. Are there any better weapons besides the ones you can buy in this chapter? Excluding boss stuff because I spared Jevil and Spamton ||

[fluid path]

||Yeah the rock attack is kinda bullshit. for sword corridor they turn red when you need to move away from them. Nah just buy the vending machine items. I got Susie's attack stat up to 26 with spike band and dealmaker. I put the shadow mantle on Kris. I try to keep Susie alive and spam defend so she can rude buster, then let Kris solo attack once Susie and Ralsei go down. busting is around 150 damage and then kris does 15/40/80 depending on how many teammates go down.||

[inland hare]

What do you think about the theory that Kris in end of chapter 3 ||slashes Susie and Ralsei in the back of you beat the secret boss||

The ||blade arc looks like it originates somewhere from the left and the above, which is where Kris is stsnding||

[ripe harbor]

ime ||I found a lot more success with really small movements and then standing still, instead of moving at all times||

||especially for the rock fall attack, just let the box carry you and focus on moving slightly to the sides||

[wheat adder]

||IIRC it's disproven because it's a single frame of an animation that's named after the knight in the files? I think, I read someone say that once but I haven't confirmed myself.||

||I myself don't buy it because I can't see Kris purposefully hurting Susie or Ralsei, also when the hits happen they SWOON.||

[dense cargo]

||Also Ralsei is looking right in Kris' direction when he's knocked out. You'd think he would have seen something.||

[wheat adder]

||Some people are theorising that Ralsei knows about the SOUL and that Kris is working with the Knight via his deep knowledge of the world, its rules and what will come to pass.||

[inland hare]

He does say|| “How… how could you…?”||

Which might mean ||”how could you do that to Susie???”||

[dense cargo]

||Honestly I thought that was surprise at the Knight breaking the rules of the game to attack||

[inland hare]

Yeah that could be it

[wheat adder]

||We literally will not be able to know for sure unless Ralsei directly mentions it in the future.||

[dense cargo]

||And while Ralsei's post-battle dialogue might imply that he knows something is up with Kris and the Knight, I don't think it matches with how he'd react to Kris attacking both Susie and himself.||

[wheat adder]

||Also you'd imagine Ralsei would bring it up in chapter 4 if he had any grievances||

[inland hare]

It’s mildly funny to me that we can dodge all sorts of attacks

||but Kris’s thrown hockey puck and bottles have unerring accuracy ||

[strange cloud]

She wing on my ding until I goner

Chapter 4 spoilers

[ripe harbor]

I just found out about like 4 more Friend sightings that I missed, and I was already going crazy about the ones I saw

who ARE you what do you WANT

[lusty cypress]

||After tv was invented, imagine how every stabbing live on TV kicked doomsday cults||

[ripe harbor]

I was thinking about how ||The Knight also literally cleaves the screen where you dodge with the Soul in half, and their cuts are always red||

||It even leaves a mark on the box for the rest of the attack, so its definitely violent enough to be called a cleave. Wonder if it was intentional.||

[inland hare]

It’s a determined strike

||it also uses undertale attack animation and sound to instantly destroy Tenna||

So I imagine ||the knight is chock full of DT||

[lusty cypress]

||DT is probably why the knight is overflowing with darkness and glitches||

[strange cloud]

Honestly after ||the Eram fight I believe friend isn’t just like, 1 guy but instead just a type of creature. Eram summons multiple during the fight||

[lusty cypress]

||What is up with friend?||

[strange cloud]

We have no fucking idea

[lusty cypress]

||I literally only saw it in ralsei's lore dump||

[strange cloud]

||They were also seen in queen’s basement before the Spamton fight||

||As a flash of the sprite if you go left and look into the void||

[lusty cypress]

Oh true

[ripe harbor]

it appears quite often in ||Secret routes and the ARG stuff as well||

||Something left the OddController for you to use, right? Kris even asks Ramb if anyone else went back there. It was also there and might've opened the path for you to actually get the key for the Empty Disk||

||It shows up in Ralsei's explanation, in several rooms during the SWORD game even before the boss, in the darkness in chapter 4...||

ngl I was close to finding this one, I looked in the room for a bit for something

It would've spooked me if I saw it

but its just around!

||and given the chesire cat theming, the maybe scrodinger's cat thing going on with it, Puppet and Cat as an elemental pair that takes elemental slot 6... its just weird!||

||Gasters weird fucking cat that runs around||

[inland hare]

its a friend

[ashen tide]

its me sorry

i'm in the game files

[ripe harbor]

then you play the ||Mike minigame|| and you get

[ripe harbor]

Seam is still for this too

being both a puppet and a cat who knows things

[lusty cypress]

Mike is such a mystery too, having a bunch of impersonators

[inland hare]

if not friend why friend shaped

[lusty cypress]

YThe dark world have a lot of alice in wonderland parallels

[ripe harbor]

its filename in the new chapters apperantly drops the friend lmao

its just _

[tidal fox]

Huh

[inland hare]

chased a white chalk straight into a dark hole

[ripe harbor]

I mean I kinda trust it. Helped me play epic awesome romhack swordroute (real) so it cant be too bad.

[sinful crag]

friendship ended with [redacted] now _ is my only f-

[ripe harbor]

A few people seem to think the strange egg-room ||poem about "Lost where the forest would grow, the children followed the pointed tail"|| might be about Friend

[inland hare]

i thought it was ||talking about Dess||

since she was presumably ||lost in the woods||

[ripe harbor]

||It could be both, shes one of the children, but what did they follow?||

[lusty cypress]

Wonderland and the mirror world are nonsense
But they're jokes and parodies of society and norms
Like dark worlds being illusions based on fact

[inland hare]

||pointed tail... a devil's tail??||

[ripe harbor]

plus theres some strange ||dialogue from the philosophers about 'The tale that must be followed' and 'the tail that must not be followed'||

[ripe harbor]

thats my thinking

especially ||when theres an optional prophecy mural in chapter 4 about 'The Tail of Hell taking crawl'||

[inland hare]

only tail ||i'm aware of is susies though. Well, and jevil's tail but that hardly counts||

[ripe harbor]

oh absolutely I have no idea what it means

but theres something weird

[inland hare]

||that tail on the prophecy looks more like a caterpillar than a tail||

i have no idea what it means

wait a minute

[ripe harbor]

in the files theres apperantly a pointed one

[inland hare]

||it's the freaking bead toy||

in the hospital

assuming ||snowgrave route is the original prophecy and main troute is the Altered prophecy||

that means we might be following the ||tail that must not be followed???||

[strange cloud]

How Gaster pilled are you?

[inland hare]

since ||snowgrave breaks the bead toy||

[ashen tide]

https://youtu.be/8BUKHLVCJio?si=RVixmSi22vyvgQ0H

[ripe harbor]

truck freak....

[ashen tide]

I love that Asgore gif so much

[sinful crag]

https://tenor.com/view/asgore-dance-deltarune-butt-gif-7575621383095580512

[ashen tide]

Asgore would win because he is faster and can run over his opponents

[sinful crag]

asgore uses his trident to destroy the Brakes

[inland hare]

i like that noelle can|| use her deer agility to just leap over walls but just doesn't||

or I guess its athletics

[ashen tide]

LMAO

[inland hare]

if we fight ||asgore gain do you think he's gonna shatter the mercy button again||

[strange cloud]

Probably not because that doesn’t really work with deltarune’s UI

||like he’d have to shatter each character’s spare button||

[inland hare]

true

[ashen tide]

FUCK

[inland hare]

is Rouxls card secretly the strongest boss in the game

||he could theoretically just render the Knight helpless, right?||

[strange cloud]

Yes

[inland hare]

by converting ||all of Knight's buttons to Act||

[ripe harbor]

I saw that as a shitpost / crack theory so often before chapter 3

||and then it was real||

[inland hare]

I saw him do that and was ||like "wh-you could've done that all this time?!?!"||

[strange cloud]

And he’s ||still a joke character||

[ripe harbor]

and yet ||canonically super hot and called so by like 4-5 characters||

good for him...?

[strange cloud]

But so weird

[ripe harbor]

literally this

[strange cloud]

Lol

[sinful crag]

have you seen the family guy hummer deltarune music edits

[ashen tide]

oh yes

I have

|| https://youtu.be/e0zItV_-b84?si=D5-JVB2wKy6ZXnmv ||

[lusty cypress]

Holy crap you're cooking
||Gerson tells you to explore rather than just follow the prophecy
Following hell's tail is plumbing the dark for knowledge and curiosity, the courage to grow beyond (such as susie learning healing)
Plus a cat has a tail, and cheshire is seen as a guide archetype often. Deeper into the rabbit hole||

[strange cloud]

||DUDE THIS PROPHECY IS SO FUCKING CHANGEABLE IT MAKES ME WANNA MERGE WITHOUT LOOKING||

[ripe harbor]

also ||the shadow crystals themselves are about perception and seemingly being between two states themselves, about possibilities? And Friend is super related to them and to 'rare' events in the ARG||

||Puppet / Cat as a duo because they both.... are ambigiously alive, given Schrödinger's cat? Because they both smile? Because they both smile (but the gaster garbage noise one)?||

tricky tony back at it again

[lusty cypress]

||The theory I saw is it was because of strings. Puppet strings, yarn balls, mice wire||

Third one was me

[ripe harbor]

Thats what I was thinking as well, but Friend doesn't seem to have much with that

||Unless the beads or the tail count? And are related in the first place to it?||

It is like, a string you'd follow

[lusty cypress]

||The fabric of the world/reality?
Unlikely, but wanna throw out the possibility if anyone can take it further||

[ripe harbor]

||yarn / stitching would also super work for Seam||

[lusty cypress]

||True. You can guide cats around with things on strings||

[ripe harbor]

its just such a strange combo among the ones we've seen

Electric / Holy as 'the skies', makes sense

Star / Dark as 'dreams / wishes / things that aren't real', sure

Puppet / Cat?

And it was even the first implemented!

[lusty cypress]

||Yarn is also slang for a fake story, plus you use puppets in stories||

||Seam is a mysterious holder of lore, and was good at games with Jevil
Besides being an important story archetype||

[ripe harbor]

||That its element 6 also makes it a little more gaster-y, especially when you add in some of the storytelling around spamton and the ARG cat petters stuff implying Noelle met the Egg Man||

[lusty cypress]

||The idea of fantasy seems rather encoded into Seam||

[ripe harbor]

||And the 'Freedom theme' is Gaster's....||

||so I could definitely see these as a sort of meta-narrative element, based around fiction and stories||

[inland hare]

but yeah from what's been revealed so far

only thing I can think of that ||resembles the tail of hell is the Bead Toy in the hospital||

[ripe harbor]

tangentially related to the beads,

||I'm not sure the party is in agreement on if they should follow the prophecy or not||

(I think your read is probably the one that fits most rn)

[lusty cypress]

||Sorry to grab from a gacha, but the enigmata from hsr posits "destiny" is an invention from our desire for a narrative, constraining us both through placebo and metaphysical phenomena. Thus the followers being obsessed with rewriting historical records, and seeding doubt and new thoughts
Which fits with what Gerson was doing. A story can be rewritten, and reinterpreted. The ax granting magical power was a lie in the literal sense, but true in a certain way. Associating him with the pseudolight of the dark world was fitting. He himself straddles the boundary of lightner and darkner, of the categorization
And his own reinterpretation of the prophecy cuts off, meant to guide but leaving space to be finished||

[ripe harbor]

if its something else, its something that hasn't been set up yet

[lusty cypress]

||Specially with the knight associations, and the possibility kris replaced the original Cage||

[ripe harbor]

the only odd thing ||about the 'tail of hell' being the beads, is the Deltarune is described as 'the tale that must be followed', with the 'tail' being something that shouldn't be. Though if the tail represents the weird route, and the weird route actually does full-stop break the prophecy, that would make sense?||

||The 'forbidden path'||

[lusty cypress]

||Hm. Maybe there's a third route||

||Gathering the crystals is multi chapter sidequest. Could be it||

[lusty cypress]

||Yeah, sword route calling it forbidden implies it does not comply with the prophecy, though could be that it fucks with the conspiracy's plans||

[ripe harbor]

I think the prophecy is going to unambigiously happen in some manner in the usual playthroughs tbh, theres too much narrative cruft pointing that way

||though I think the shadow crystals and general message might align with Gerson - the events are going to occur, but you gotta read between the lines and maybe re-interpret what they mean.||

||Like Tenna getting slashed, but surviving if you recruit enough people. Prophecy completed, outcome subverted||

[lusty cypress]

||Oh, tenna's survival depends on recruit? cool||

||So it's a classica trick fate thing||

[ripe harbor]

maybe

||I dont think it will be easy enough to be 'already broken' or anything. Though somethings up with susie for sure.||

||Could be the actors are fungible but the script stays the same, if you get me?||

[lusty cypress]

||I didn't say it was already broken||

[ripe harbor]

oh mb if I implied that

thats just a take I've seen elsewhere

||which I think is... its hopeful, but its definitely cope. Theres something tragic in the future.||

I think the writing is good enough that breaking away from it, if possible, wont be easy

[lusty cypress]

||Yeah. Toby said there's a "single ending", which I guess means the prophecy happens, but depending on what you do you can mess with the outcome||

[inland hare]

||https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/s/CNp0LZUX4P ||this is actually probably pretty solid evidence for ||Dess knight theory||

Since ||skates are only associated with her||

[strange cloud]

1 million more pieces of evidence for ||Dess Knight||

[sharp lodge]

||i definetly think it's dess knight at this point, it makes the most sense storywise||

[lusty cypress]

Hey, question about chapter 4
||Does a church keep so many books? There were a lot of books, philosphers and scholars there, that sometimes I forget it wasn't a library||

[tidal fox]

||I assume most of them were from Alvin's room ||

[lusty cypress]

True ||Alvin's sister is also in charge of the library||

[sour mesa]

||it's pretty normal for churches to be stocked on scriptures, songbooks, etc.||

[strange cloud]

||Yah, I’ve seen several church’s which basically double as libraries||

||At least for religious texts||

[low surge]

What sucks about finishing chapter 3 but || trying to fight the Knight || is that I want to start theorizing and finally catching up with the community but I’ve still got ch4 to start, and gods knows how long that’s going to take me to do

Like rarely are you going to find people only discussing chapter 3 and not 4 in the same breath

[fluid path]

you can always leave that save before the super boss fight and play ch4 then come back later

[low surge]

I might, guess it’ll depend on if I feel like I’m making any progress

[wheat adder]

||Someone will still try to claim it's Rudy or Asriel||

[inland hare]

A lot of ||knightly motions look like gliding but now that I think about it it’s really reminds me of figure skating||

And only ||one I know that probably skates is Dess||

[lusty cypress]

Oh Asgore compares his flowers in glasses to beauty and the beast

[gilded canopy]

||it's not strong evidence I would say, though Dess Knight theory just already has a lot of stronger evidence.

But if not figure skating, they are fairly graceful actions, the Knight has clearly retained a sense of style. I think it mainly shows combat as almost an art form to them. So the Knight isn't totally feral or being overly practical, which suggests more towards the idea that if Dess is the Knight, she's been twisted in some fashion, rather than overwritten by or raised as a corpse by an external force.||

[inland hare]

i just need an evidence ||that I can't attribute to anyone else||

||sword can be attribute to anyone. Antlers might not mean anything since it might not be antlers at all, or there are alternative candidates. Intelligence might meean anything. I can't really attribute the figure skating motions to anyone but Dess at the current time||

[gilded canopy]

honestly at this point the evidence functions when all of them are taken together, eliminating other options with the limits of each other piece.

||Like, the Asriel reference attack basically narrows it down to more Asriel or Dess. Issues with timing suggests that it can't be Carol without difficulty. The Knight's sword could be a katana and suggest Carol, or the initial bat shape could be meaningful and suggest Dess. The attitude could suggest Dess or Asriel. And so on.||

[lusty cypress]

He is trying to keep them alive in this climate, so avoiding them wilting
He talks to them, and they are likely the original flowers from when he proposed to toriel

[gilded canopy]

It is less that any one piece is definitive and more ||that Dess keeps appearing again in so many places for evidence||

[lusty cypress]

||Symbolism, very interesting. Since we know either him or the flowers are the boss fight. We can see what the symbolism will be
The flowers are his attachment to the past, and his belief he can jsut restore things to how they were||

||I can see the flowers growing and overtaking things, stifling movement and growth||

[gilded canopy]

Honestly what I'm interested about is (ch4) ||how you can try and have the narration peek in on the Knight… Taking off their helmet??? And since Kris has to hijack the situation with thinking about Jockington to avoid spoilers, thus actually being a concern, either it was entirely Kris imagining the concept of seeing the former face of the Knight, or the Knight's formless knightmare nonsense somehow can still present a familiar face.|| Both are interesting possibilities.

[dense cargo]

||I still think those horns look distinctly like the Holliday family's, with the three points at the end.||

[ripe harbor]

given ||the next chapter introducing Darkners-patterned-off Lightners that only show up in 'specific circumstances' I could geniunely see it not quite being Dess but maybe her Guitar or something||

||But it acts more like a Lightner than not, I think, with the fountains||

[dense cargo]

||That raises the question as to who took Undyne outside though||

[ripe harbor]

||With their sword fragment the same in both the dark and light worlds I think they might geniunely be something thats not either tbh||

||They're weird they're doing weird things||

[sinful crag]

historically, tricky toby hasnt been very tricky with his visual and musical motifs, both of which the knight has in spades

[ripe harbor]

absolutely no way its ||Asriel I'm super confident in that||

[inland hare]

I still have no idea why ||Dess would do any of what the Knight is doing||

[gilded canopy]

The problem with that is that it's ||specific darknesses, not specific circumstances. It took the second fountain opened by the Knight for Gerson to appear again.||

[ripe harbor]

||Well that could be a motivation for the Knight opening these fountains / presenting the party with fights to improve their strength||

||Dess can only come back if a specific darkness is handled?||

[inland hare]

like with ||every other Knight candidate, motivation can be slightly reasoned with. Dess is unknowable in a way that makes me skeptical||

[dense cargo]

||Genuinely I think it's too early for us to have anything like a clear understanding of the Knight's motives, no matter who they are||

[gilded canopy]

I think at it's core the problem is ||we straight up can only guess at the objective of the Knight.||

[inland hare]

||like if she can interact with the light world, why not just do it instead of skulking about the town with weird conspiracy plots||

[lusty cypress]

||Of course, the knight could have an accomplice.
We know someone is going around the light world helping the knight, specially with the emphasis on the big closets in the library and the church||

[gilded canopy]

Presumably because ||something about them doesn't work quite right with the Knight in the light world, or their objective actually requires that they set things up in the shadows.||

[ripe harbor]

||Shes also not Lost in the suggested way if the Knights her||

||'Lost' maybe mentally, yeah. But you don't need to Find Her shes right there.||

||What about her being like Dess in whatever way Ralsei is like Asriel? (refuses to elaborate)||

||Susie and Noelle mention Ralsei's weird apperance again in chapter 4, and theres still not particularly a reason for him to look so like Kris' brother.||

[inland hare]

yeah

||it's why I can't imagine that it's Dess||

[gilded canopy]

||OH NO I SEEM TO HVAE LOST MY GIRL :(||
||BUT MABYE SHE CAN FIAND||
||…YOU||

[inland hare]

maybe the fact that it's consistently referred to as an 'it' is key

[ripe harbor]

technically susie (woke icon) calls it a they in chapter 4

[inland hare]

hmm

[ripe harbor]

(I only noticed because I was using it exclusively up to that point lmao)

[dense cargo]

I don't think any of the people who refer to the Knight as it actually know anything about it though

||Also, it has been pointed out that the Find Her motif plays in Black Knife, though backwards, and that's only possibly associated with Dess||

[lusty cypress]

||Or the gerson statue||

[gilded canopy]

It's definitely not quite all there. ||The Knight is formless and takes on unnatural and twisting appearances at will, and can just. Collapse into a ball. She's certainly lost.

Perhaps she left behind something of herself, when she got trapped.||

[ripe harbor]

||They're definitely Dess associated, I feel like thats hard to argue against, but idk if its literally Dess||

[gilded canopy]

||And that part is lost.||

[inland hare]

i don't think its literally ||Dess but is clearly very much associated somehow with Dess||

||but that might mean pretty much anything||

[gilded canopy]

||it is, at the very least, drawn from when she went missing, in some way.||

[lusty cypress]

||It could be an object based on her. But lacks determination
THough maybe a darkner could hold a lightner soul||

[ripe harbor]

||and if the theme exists backwards that could be a point in either direction||

[lusty cypress]

||Or just injectected with DT/darkness||

[inland hare]

oh Noelle also ||does the same finger gun the other people as an act sprite that Kris and Knight does||

[ripe harbor]

shes so doomed by the narrative

its unreal

[dense cargo]

||But if it is a Darkner, that raises questions as to both the Fountain opening and the apparent Light World presence||

[lusty cypress]

||Yes, I mentioned that||

[sinful crag]

my leading theory between|| trying to get noelle and toriel is to Rebuild The Family||

[gilded canopy]

||I don't think that the Knight is a proper darkner, or really one at all. they resemble Titans too closely.||

[inland hare]

so that's another thing that can be attributed to both ||dreemurs and holidays||

[lusty cypress]

||... Did literally no one read the other stuff I emntioned when I suggested the knihgt is a darkner?||

[sinful crag]

i wont lie im only reading what im directly replying to, reading all the spoilered stuff is kind of a pain int he ass on mobile

its why i dont talk much in here

[lusty cypress]

Theory ||Kris slahed susie and ralsei
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWGPHIbgU5I||

[inland hare]

this pose

[gilded canopy]

||It still suggests too much of a limitation of where they can go and form.

I don't think they have an accomplice handily running around in the dark world doing everything we assert the Knight has done, that's just kind of silly

Like, someone kidnapped Undyne through the light world to the bunker. A handoff at the threshold is just kind of silly.||

[ripe harbor]

https://tenor.com/view/bryan-cranston-who-me-really-gif-7910155

[dense cargo]

||Is Determination darkness?||

[inland hare]

for some reason both Noelle and Kris also share the same exact pose as their Act sprite

[lusty cypress]

||Fair||

[gilded canopy]

I personally think that the simplest answer is that ||whatever the Knight is, it is something not as limited in the light as a darkner.||

[ripe harbor]

||I'd be a little surprised if any UT metaphysics end up super relevant, at least in the same way, given DT's main ending being concepted a bit beforehand||

[gilded canopy]

||they're clearly darkness based, but not "just" an object doused in negative light.||

[ripe harbor]

||Its why I find it hard to take the Dust theories seriously, I think the setting of hometown being monsters was probably added after the main plot||

[inland hare]

it must|| be someone who's capable of acting in the Light World||

which|| is a huge point imo against it being Dess||

[gilded canopy]

||they might even be a self-sufficient source of darkness.||

[ripe harbor]

Seam's ||comment about not entering Dark Fountains at night probably means they have some weird restrictions, right?||

[inland hare]

but could be explained by accomplices etc

[ripe harbor]

||They only show up when its 'dark' outside||

[lusty cypress]

||The way the knight laughed at susie, they could be formidable in the light world too, or they were just laughing because they were gonna create a titan||

[strange cloud]

Well ||the most obvious answer is to somehow save herself||

[gilded canopy]

Funnily enough ||you're actually somewhat correct, old concept art from Toby confirms that hometown being humans was an idea early on.|| At least IIRC.

[strange cloud]

||Like she’s not in the best spot rn||

[dense cargo]

||We all agree that the Knight is Titan-like right? Doesn't Ralsei's story about the Roaring in chapter 2 imply that the Titans can exist in the Light World, since they will destroy it?||

[lusty cypress]

||Guess Dess could be looking for a way to cover everything in darkness without a too destructive roaring||

[lusty cypress]

||Well, they are fountains unto themselves
And the way ralsei explained the roaring, the overflowing darkness would probably already be covering the world by then||

[gilded canopy]

||titans are also essentially fountains gone beyond, darkness within darkness. And fountains are sources of darkness. Being titan-resembling might suggest the Knight has similar if diminished properties.||

[strange cloud]

||I wouldnt say so, while we don’t know what the knight is exactly, we know it’s not a darkner because it can make a fountain. So no matter what it is, and I’m sure it’s fucking weird, it has to be able to exist in the light world to some extent||

[lusty cypress]

||Anyway, we can all agree the knight is not a normal creature, right? A darkner can't go around willy nilly in the light world, but no lightner has such a warped form
And no entity we've encountered is so titan-like and overflowing with darkness||

[strange cloud]

Absolutely yah

[inland hare]

yeah

[gilded canopy]

||a self-sufficient source of darkness could easily run around in the light world, though they'd probably have some form trouble.||

[ripe harbor]

though ||I'd buy that a Titan-like thing can open fountains as well, especially since the fountain opening animation includes a bunch of flashing stars||

[inland hare]

it's weird

[dense cargo]

Yup

[strange cloud]

||I don’t really think they can be defined as a lightner or darkner||

[gilded canopy]

Yeah.

[inland hare]

whoever is the ||Knight in the real world also has to be incredibly buff||

[lusty cypress]

||Also, the knight has specially crafted dark items||

[inland hare]

because it could ||leg it across town while carrying a very muscular fish while outspeeding Susie||

[dense cargo]

||Does that disqualify anyone of the main candidates?||

[inland hare]

No, don't think so

asriel could be buff

[strange cloud]

||I honestly think that so long as it’s dark the knight can exist in it. So it can travel in hometown during the night||

[inland hare]

maybe ||Carol is an active fencer||

[strange cloud]

||Itd also explain Seam’s comments towards not wanting to be in dark worlds after night||

||as that’s when the knight can move||

[gilded canopy]

That point about a ||warped form is why I don't think any of the other options are possible. Lighters in the dark world usually resemble themselves, so they'd have to be fucked up to look like that in the dark.

So if one instead picks someone we have never seen alive… Say, Dess, or Asriel…||

[ripe harbor]

of course..... its all so obvious now....

[dense cargo]

||This ties in perfectly with my "ICE-E is the Angel" theory||

[inland hare]

||i dunnow maybe it slaaughtered one too many titans||

[ripe harbor]

keep cooking

[gilded canopy]

||it doesn't matter then what they look like in the light world. We'd never see such blatant evidence until it is too late.||

[sharp lodge]

||iirc most of the chapter bosses never spoke with the knight, they just projected their goals and feelings onto them||

[lusty cypress]

||How could anything have happened to asriel and him not be a missing person? Asriel was just fine until Town lost contact with the outside world||

[inland hare]

maybe the ||knight is a product of SCIENCE though||

looks at the skeletons

[gilded canopy]

That was more ||being fair to the remaining possibilities. I don't think it's Asriel, just that it has a few points.||

[dense cargo]

||ICE-E has a connection to Noelle, the most angel related character, as the object of her fear, and as having an obvious affinity for ice and snow, plus it would explain Susie's confusion when seeing the Angel in the prophecy||

[inland hare]

also where did the Holidays get their money from

[strange cloud]

Mayor money

[gilded canopy]

Taxes

[strange cloud]

Unironically

[inland hare]

do mayors really get paid that well

[strange cloud]

She has to be

Rudy doesn’t seem to be working

[ripe harbor]

it makes more sense than I'm comfortable with

[dense cargo]

||Furthermore, ICE-E's omnipresence in branding parallels the prevalence of the prophecy of Delta Rune itself in society||

[gilded canopy]

…wait do mayors get money from taxes

[strange cloud]

No they just have a salary

[ripe harbor]

||that story about Dess beating up and burning the ICEE box foreshadowing a Knight vs, Angel fight||

[inland hare]

well the salary eventually do come from taxes no?

[dense cargo]

||Also the only explanation for GIASFELFEBREHBER is it being some sort of eldritch incantation||

[strange cloud]

Also I will say, ||while Susie doenst get a good look at them due to the darkness, she does say she saw the knight. So like, if it was normal person she’d probably comment on it||

[gilded canopy]

Huh. I forgot about that.

[lusty cypress]

||Anyway, guess these are the facts
It's an abnormal being
It must be someone who was warped from their original state or created
It possesses determination and an overflowing darkness||

[strange cloud]

||Like no matter the knight’s light world form it’s definitely not a normal person||

[ripe harbor]

• its got a pretty banger track

[strange cloud]

||Its also got a thing for baseball bats||

||and has antlers||

[inland hare]

does it though

[strange cloud]

It summons one!

[lusty cypress]

Huh ||THough she also say in c4 that once the fountain is sealed, they can find out who the knight is. So it's still armored, and susie thinks it's a normal being outside the dark world||

[gilded canopy]

Convenient how the narrative view ||doesn't let us see that and only lets us know what Susie tells us||

[inland hare]

it summons a sword|| that maybe looks like a baseball bat at certain angles||

it has what ||could be antlers||

I'm not sure personally

[strange cloud]

||It summons a bat that transforms into a sword. It’s clearly a bat before she grabs hold of it||

[ripe harbor]

||though both of those especially combined make it seem like, from a writing perspective, the parallels are intentional||

[sinful crag]

which is SICK AS HELL

[strange cloud]

It’s so cool

[lusty cypress]

||Okay, the baseball bat thing feels a bit off for me. It's a 2d pitch black sword. Easy to look like a tube||

[ripe harbor]

||esp because the average person playing through might not even strongly associate bats with Dess tbh||

[strange cloud]

I love the knight

They’re awesome

[sinful crag]

thats my aura farming monarch!!!!

[lusty cypress]

||Wait, really? Ugh, gonna have to look for the cutscenes to check||

[dense cargo]

||I still don't think there's much of an argument against the Antlers, apart from them being possibly a deliberate red herring||

[gilded canopy]

I think maybe that ||susie could only see something vague in the night, like, you could infer immediately that's the Knight, but not get any further details.

Perhaps if their form is even more vague in the light world, then…||

[wheat adder]

I know chapter 5 is next year, but it'll still feel like a decade until it releases…

[inland hare]

I imagine she ||could've just seen an indistinct person or a hooded figure legging it with a muscular fish ||

[strange cloud]

Here are some more examples of it

[inland hare]

only a few people can be lugging muscular fishes at that time of the night

[gilded canopy]

Yeah.

[lusty cypress]

||Best I could come up with is if for some reason the knigh got holiday style antler headband. But well, we have no reason why anyone would have that||

[inland hare]

there is, come to think of it

[sinful crag]

also, just hard to see a lot of details on someone running from far away at night!

[gilded canopy]

||as well as the whole. You know. Peeking on the Knight taking their helmet off thing. Either that's Kris's imagination of their former appearance, or something of an actual form is still in the Knight somewhere.||

[inland hare]

strong evidence for the ||Knight maintaining its form in the Light World||

[ripe harbor]

especially when ||the first look you get at the weapon is one of the strongest 'looks like a bat' moments||

[inland hare]

the ||Black Shard is the only item that doesn't transform into a mundne object in the real world||

[sinful crag]

honestly the part of their design im fascinated with is the... ||stigmata-like stuff on their hands||

[ripe harbor]

the Shadow Crystals probably dont either, but in a weirder way

[inland hare]

which means ||that the weapon of the Knight maintains its form in the Light World||

[strange cloud]

YAH

||Gaster deniers in shambles||

[ripe harbor]

(iirc their description is something like "It looks like glass, but....")

[inland hare]

and if its weapon ||maintains its form, the rest of its body might too||

[dense cargo]

||Anyways, considering that the Knight has that big eye in their torso, I think we can safely say that they are a Kirby boss||

[gilded canopy]

||and I find that interesting. i don't think it means that the Knight has a different light world body, but that either Kris just has a running thought, or the method used to create the Knight engulfed some semblance of the original person. Perhaps it could not be their actual face, but still resemble it.||

[sharp lodge]

||i could see that being the case but i think susie would've mentioned that||

[dense cargo]

||wait when does that happen?||

[lusty cypress]

||I guess the knight could have been warped into their current form due to interacting with fountains? Or perhaps they spent too long in a dark world
Determination has some connection to the dark, but it might be just to poke through reality to create a fountain||

[gilded canopy]

||if you decide not to close your eyes and imagine what susie is doing in ch4. you have some options instead.||

[sharp lodge]

also ||dess seems to have been a pretty athletic person, she could be strong enough to carry undyne, but we don't know that for sure||

[gilded canopy]

||if you choose to imagine the Knight, you read about them taking off their helmet, then Kris runs mental interference and you get… I think it was Jockington?||

[inland hare]

btw are we just gonna accept the fact that ||Ralsei could've levitated all this time||

[lusty cypress]

||Also, the orb form seems important. Is it an eye?||

[strange cloud]

||Honestly I don’t think the knight has a normal light world form just because if it is Dess, well then she’s good. Just go home. But clearly she can’t for some reason so she must be stuck as the knight for some reaso||

[dense cargo]

||He keeps forgetting he can do that||

[gilded canopy]

Listen ||he's got a prophecy to follow||

[lusty cypress]

||Yeah. I wonder why he didn't do that before||

[ripe harbor]

||He is made of fluff and magic||

[inland hare]

and that involves ||not doing high speed levitation?||

[gilded canopy]

I would probably vote that ||she's either a corpse reformed or has left behind no small part of herself in the dark||

[lusty cypress]

||Yeah. He could have done time any time he ran before, so it's weird
If he only discovered how to do that now/recently, it would've been pointed out/mentioned I hink||

[strange cloud]

That’s what I’m leaning towards too

[sinful crag]

maybe he just likes walking

[dense cargo]

||THE PRINCE WILL NOT FLOAT UNLESS DRAMATICALLY APPROPRIATE||

[lusty cypress]

||Knight is capable of thought, but looks rather feral after all||

[gilded canopy]

Like, yeah, the sense of style lingers. ||But why would Dess fight kids like that, try to kidnap toriel, anything she wouldn't do? Perhaps she's missing something like that.||

[inland hare]

I also feel like ||Ralsei is hiding a lot of his... uhh... combat spells||

||I get the impression that he could be a lot more lethal if he chose to||

he ||one shot kills Gerson statue||

||made of solid stone||

[dense cargo]

||That thing apparently has over a thousand hp too||

[inland hare]

it felt weird that ||the black mage of the group apparently only has one pacify and healing spell||

[dense cargo]

||He's our black mage?||

[lusty cypress]

||Ralsei did say the dark worlds can't feed you.
Maybe she just fell apart from spending so long there?
But how did she end up lost, if the one dark world is known by the government and police?
Well, perhaps a) it's too hazardous/difficult to explore, alphys did say it might be worse than whatever disaster hits Town. b) she wandered off the world. Remember that weird wasteland around Castle town, and you see elements of it away from the more lively parts of the TV world? The dark worlds could have these unclaimed wastelands. Ralsei could have a way to safely traverse them to other dark worlds, and hides it because that's more scary stuff to hide||

[gilded canopy]

||Also something to keep in mind. The Knight is not really the Roaring Knight. Like, they created a new titan offhandedly, more as a trick on the party. They clearly could call down the roaring at any time. But their objective might be different, not following the other side of the prophecy.||

[inland hare]

hmm

actually

[clear frost]

||it explicitly states "the roaring knight appeared"||

[inland hare]

||is the Knight mentioned like... at all... in the prophecy?||

[dense cargo]

||THE KNIGHT WHICH MAKES
WITH BLACKENED KNIFE.||

[gilded canopy]

||yes. But what I mean is… are they really participating as a Roaring Knight properly should?||

[clear frost]

||no they are not||

[lusty cypress]

||Dang. Ralsei could go hard if he wanted to. Since spells seem to be a thing you learn and practice, this means in spite of being a pacifist that wants to minimize violence, he also trained combat a lot. Guess he wanted to be ready for worst case scenarios like the fucked up statue. Titans seem too strong, and titanspawn too weak. Course, he could've wanted to prepare for figthing titans anyway. But perhaps we might meet more intermediary enemies, like more grown titanspawn?||

[clear frost]

||it's still their title tho||

[dense cargo]

||SHALL DUEL WITH HEROES
STRIFE BY STRIFE.||

[gilded canopy]

||like, they're running around handing out shadow crystals, something not part of the prophecy as far as I know.||

[gilded canopy]

Is that all of it? That's pretty short.

[clear frost]

||OK OK OK OK OK ABOUT THE CRYSTALS||
||how do we know the knight was the one handing them out?||
||do you see any other chips on the blade? any purposefully fragmented bits?||

[sinful crag]

they want to be friends <3

[dense cargo]

||I think that's all the times the Knight is brought up yes||

[gilded canopy]

The ||shadow crystals are clearly a different substance from the black shard.||

[clear frost]

||and yet you get an SCrystal from the blade chipping||

[gilded canopy]

No, you get ||a shadow crystal and a black shard||

[lusty cypress]

||The roaring seems like something no one would want
The knight opens a few fountains at a time and lets us seal them
And only created a titan as a distraction to escape
So their goals really seems to just be based on whatever this series of opening and closing fountains leads to||

[clear frost]

||yes. exactly. that's what i'm saying.||

[gilded canopy]

||the two have different names, descriptions, and use text.||

[lusty cypress]

||we only saw a bunch of excerpts. We explicitly don't have the full prophecy||

[gilded canopy]

||the shadow crystals go transparent in the light world, but the black shard does not.||

[clear frost]

||so then where did the knight's scrystal come from?||

[dense cargo]

||Either way, the Knight is explicitly named in the prophecy||

[lusty cypress]

||That's interisting. So what asgore has is specifically a piece of the material the knight uses for its gear||

[gilded canopy]

I personally think that ||the black shard is clearly supposed to be what is chipped from the blade. The Knight just had the shadow crystal on them since they didn't hand it off to anyone yet.||

[dense cargo]

||Or, alternatively, the Knight is called that because of the Prophecy||

[gilded canopy]

Yes, actually!

||Asgore talks about black glass, not anything like a shadow crystal.||

[lusty cypress]

Music mashup
||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxtOmPuO5zc||

[clear frost]

||ok question. where are people getting the idea that the knight is the one handing them out from? is that implied anywhere?||

[gilded canopy]

||from text with various shadow crystal holders?||

||IIRC the text surrounding Jevil was even one of the first mentions of the Knight.||

[clear frost]

||are you telling me the knight knew what was in the basement and how exactly to get there?||

[gilded canopy]

But I don't remember it well enough, I'd need to check a text dump

[clear frost]

you may be thinking of queen. that was where she was first mentioned.

the knight was mentioned by King

[lusty cypress]

Jevil talks of hell's roar

[clear frost]

yes, he does say that

so we technically knew of the roaring since before chapter 2

[lusty cypress]

But shadow crystals I don't think were explicitly connected ||to being from the knight||

[inland hare]

||Gerson mentions someone rushed by his study and handed him a shadowcrystal||

And the only intruder we are aware of ||in the church dark world is the knight||

[lusty cypress]

Oh I see

[clear frost]

||it would've been a PRETTY BIG FUCKING THING if the knight went in there. not exactly a subtle character. makes their presence known.||

[fluid path]

only corrupt ones (which is most mayors)

[lusty cypress]

||Gerson is the type of person who would take the knight rushing by casually and be ambiguous about it||

[gilded canopy]

Uh

||Doesn't Gerson state directly where you can find the Knight? Through the door in his study? Hold on.||

[clear frost]

||that he is...||

i'm gonna be honest folks i havent played chapters 3 and 4 yet

[gilded canopy]

||```

• You, um... haven't seen a shadowy figure, have you?
• Hm... now that you mention it... Just before you came in...
• A figure with a sword flew in that door up there.
• But, it's locked with some contraption

[gilded canopy]

…

But also yes, you are correct, it's ||Seam who mentions the Knight.||

[clear frost]

at least i got something right!

[dense cargo]

||For the Knight and the Shadow Crystals, there is also Spamton's reaction when the Knight is mentioned right?||

[lusty cypress]

Now, what the purpose ||of these crystals is, and why they're being distributed, is the question||
||Kris just sees through their hand, or sees some scene of susie/noelle doing something||

[inland hare]

spamton seems aware of who the knight is yeah

[lusty cypress]

OH also

||You see the real world, or the tv smashed||

[fluid path]

but who is mike

[clear frost]

every mike is The mike

even the fanmade ones

[fluid path]

Mike...

[dense cargo]

No one important

[lusty cypress]

||You also see that the prophecy does not warp in the crystal||

[gilded canopy]

||```
SPEAKING OF [[Communion]]

• KRIS, DID YOU KNOW THAT THE KNIGHT...

[inland hare]

it was walpole

[lusty cypress]

Wait, what the fuck
There an unused text for the glass in chapter 3
||You see undyne frozen in ice||

[inland hare]

mmm

||frozen fish||

don't worry ||fish can survive being frozen||

she's a freshwater fish right

[clear frost]

seeing how she lives in waterfall back in Undertale, i'd say yes.

[lusty cypress]

||The idea of loops with the prophecy still being fulfilled has some ground
THough it could also be the future being shown in the crystal||
It could be ||that the missing word when you try to throw away the glass in chapter 4 is "memory"||

[dense cargo]

||What's this loops idea?||

[inland hare]

||probably something similar to undertale wherein you have to complete multiple loops to get the True ending||

[lusty cypress]

||Been a while, but I saw someone suggest that the story has happened before, theprophecy has happened in different ways
Likely based on the idea some people had that the roaring happened once beofre and that's why castle town is surrounded by a wasteland filled with eyes
Of course, why would a dark world hold the ruins of the previous apocalypse?||

[dense cargo]

||That does seem like a weird thing for a school closet to contain||

[inland hare]

closet is where you shove all your unwanted furniture to

[lusty cypress]

||Thought of it because frozen undyne is a rather odd scene. She did pop up in the snow area where the knihgt is fought, but beyond that, no interaction with ice, snowgrave or noelle
Though now that I think of it, the knight is likely to be dess and hass an association with biting cold winds||

||Still undyne was kidnapped and dragged, not frozen||

||Doesn't seem like some metaphor, since the other glass visions are rather grounded||

[dense cargo]

||Yeah, if the Knight is any of the Holidays, an ice association can be understood||

[sharp lodge]

||i wonder if it's a reference to snowgrave||

[dense cargo]

||And I guess Undyne could literally have been frozen in the Shelter, though nothing else implies this so far||

[inland hare]

is it|| ice or wind that's associated with Knight||

because the ||wind is associated with someon else too||

[lusty cypress]

||A smashed tv is shown if you use the crystal in the dark world
So I guess it's a true vision if a bit skewed, since tenna's darkner form gets slashed but he is fine in the light world
SO frozen undyne meaning her kidnapping by a holiday makes sense
It could also be an alternate way events could've gone, but no one has reason to smash the tv outside the dark world||

[dense cargo]

||The North Wind is both||

[inland hare]

hmm

[lusty cypress]

Aurora borealis, localized entirely within this dark world?
May I see it?

[dense cargo]

||And I still venture that the first attack looks like snowflakes, but that's more of an impression, and people can disagree||

[inland hare]

||when you reveal yourself to Noelle in the weird route of chapter 4, a gale starts whipping up all around you||

which seems diagetic

so it's not just the ||knight who can summon up a dramatic wind for arua farmming||

[lusty cypress]

Oh, another thing
||The knight has to have a light world form since they likely used the big closets in library and the church||

[dense cargo]

||This is pure speculation and I haven't played Snowgrave, but could that wind have been caused involuntarily by Noelle? You have been strengthening her, after all||

[lusty cypress]

||Though the fact kris explicitly points out they can hold a large person may mean the knight can't turn in a ball outside the dark world?||

[inland hare]

maybe but it seems to ||originate directly from You/Kris||

[dense cargo]

||I guess we have a wind ability now||

[ripe harbor]

the thing is ||Spamton explicity didnt have one - it was in the NEO body, made by swatch and (presumably) Mettaton||

||Though he had contact with it before, it wasn't exactly handed off to him, and theres a read that the crystal itself was the 'incredible power' infused into the machine by the desires of whoever drew it||

[sour mesa]

you. deltarune enjoyer. buy cucumber quest bundle
https://itch.io/s/155138/cucumber-appreciation-day

[dense cargo]

Is that for Kris, Susie and Noelle?

[lusty cypress]

||Hmmmmmmm||

[lunar saffron]

yes

and maintaining that agenda...

is our
TOP!

PRIORITY!!!!!!!!

[inland hare]

berdly will sadly have to be sacrificed

[lusty cypress]

I am willing to zero him for the agenda

[dense cargo]

A sacrifice we are all willing to make

[lunar saffron]

sadly...?...

[inland hare]

okay not really sadly

[sinful crag]

:( my boy berdly

[dense cargo]

I do kind of like Berdly honestly. He's endearing somehow.

[ripe harbor]

how much does ||Mother 3 having a missing sibling evil masked villain plot|| impact ||Dess = Knight likelihood||

[sinful crag]

Berdly is the funniest character in ch2 for me, bar none

he's so so good

[strange cloud]

https://tenor.com/view/truth-nuke-truth-true-soyjak-wojak-gif-14828627546768133163

[inland hare]

i didn't have to ||kill the blue bird in the sword route, but I did anyways||

[sinful crag]

ch4 berdly|| "Susie and Noelle are falling for me like dominoes, and you know what dominoes mean? You're next." is one of the funniest bits of text i have ever voice acted in my entire life i love him||

[strange cloud]

It’s legitimately the funniest line in the game

Also, if I may

Speak truth

That the woke mob might not be ready to hear

Rizz

I’d fall for berdly with lines like that

[lusty cypress]

||Berdly should say Ralsei fell for him in the following chapters||

Anyway, a bit I haven't seen talked about much ||is that Alvin at the very least knows of the shelter and that the prophecy is happening. RIght in the previous chapters he was on teh graveyard looking at gerson's grave, conflicted about something
Which was confirmed in chapter 4, he exhumed his father, very likely to make him a "darkner" when the fountain gets opened in the church||

[ripe harbor]

one of the funniest differences between Kris and the Soul is that they probably don't mind berdly as much as 90% of players lmao

[sinful crag]

i nearly lost it on stream at the option where you can say ||Kris wants to go w/ Berdly to the festival and Kris keeps repeating BERDLY?! and crashes out in front of ralsei ||

[lusty cypress]

"Too bad another 10 runs of killing berdly, Kris buddy"

[strange cloud]

Also murdoc do you stream?

Or was this a streaming to discord scenario?

[sinful crag]

for friends ye, i used to do twitch but its been a while

[strange cloud]

Ah ok

[sinful crag]

had a humble hundred followers for dbd content and arknights stuff once upon a time

and ygo stuff

[strange cloud]

Practically a celebrity

[inland hare]

||BERDLY?! BERDLY????!!!!!||

Kris' despair is too delicious tbh

[ripe harbor]

reasonable crashout

tbh

I'm not saying they even like him particularly

but you can only play private minecraft servers so many times before people get ideas

[inland hare]

||berdly is their enemy||

much like how ||Noelle is their enemy||

[ripe harbor]

meanwhile susie and ralsei are like "ugh this guy again"

[vocal elbow]

||Makes sense, even in the Weird Route if you visit him in the hospital your only option is to help him get more comfortable.||

[sinful crag]

he's a dweeb and he's annoying but hes like, the perfect example of a harmless tween/teen being really fuckin awkward all the time

[strange cloud]

I think Kris and Berdly’s relationship is really just one of like, not vibing with tbh

Like I don’t think Kris despises berdly

But also I do not think they particularly like him

They were cordial enough to play video games together at least

[inland hare]

were they

[strange cloud]

Yah absolutely

Queen said it best

There’s nothing wrong with him he’s just annoying

[strange cloud]

Yah Noelle mentions it in one of her blogs

[ripe harbor]

Its mentioned in game too

[inland hare]

I see

[strange cloud]

Oh

[inland hare]

well we've killed people for less in skyrim tbh

[inland hare]

lmao

right

[lusty cypress]

An old lady says berdly told her kris wavedashes and she admonishes them for it

[inland hare]

he complains about ||kris wavedashing||

[ripe harbor]

its like Kris and Berdly enjoy being cringe gamer rivals

[strange cloud]

Which means Kris is probably cracked at melee

[inland hare]

is wavedashing cringe

or an evidence of being a tryhard

[dense cargo]

Weird route ch 4 ||Also based on Snowgrave, they clearly don't want anything actually bad to happen to him||

[strange cloud]

Yah absolutely

[ripe harbor]

In the UNDERTALE 6th Anniversary stream, Berdly has unique dialogue in the modified Chapter 1, where he jeers Kris regarding the "Smashing Fighters moss-percent speedrun." He claims that he has been working on a forty-minute documentary on how Kris cheated and spliced their run.

[sinful crag]

curse of having an older brother gamer

[inland hare]

berdly and Kris are llike ||sitcom rivals||

[ripe harbor]

they've got some weird anime rivalry thing going on

[inland hare]

sitcom rivals

[strange cloud]

Oddly enough snowgrave in general has the most evidence of Kris caring about the people around them

As you get crueler Kris tries to be nicer

[tropic valve]

Wavedashing is just advanced tech in melee, and scrubs are often super angry when you do it

[dense cargo]

Including the romantic tension

[inland hare]

so berdly is a fake gamer

[tropic valve]

It's like any kind of animation cancel

[strange cloud]

Kris absolutely labbed games just to beat Asriel

[tropic valve]

no he's just a BAD gamer

[inland hare]

a CASUAL

[ripe harbor]

in chapter 4 ||Berdly is very quick to accept Kris as a suitor for his Romance Route or however he'd say it||

[vocal elbow]

Isn't wavedashing like a glitch or something?

[strange cloud]

Eh

Kinda

Depends on your definition

[tidal fox]

That interaction is so funny

[sinful crag]

its an exploit

[strange cloud]

It’s not a mistake, just a natural consequence of how melee handles momentum

[inland hare]

yeah using animation cancel to preserve momentum

is how I understand it

[dense cargo]

||He actively says they will be the next to fall for him if they don't say they want to go with him||

[strange cloud]

Nothing about the momentum system is not working how it’s supposed to

Just the developers didn’t foresee what it’d result in

[tidal fox]

Basically you jump and then dash diagonally towards the ground

[sinful crag]

RIZZMASTER BERDLY

[tidal fox]

This let's you move very quickly

[vocal elbow]

Then again, comboing was originally bug/glitch

[tropic valve]

Yeah it just lets you move while keeping momentum and facing

[strange cloud]

Bro just needs to stop going after sapphics and he’d have his gamer girl GF

[vocal elbow]

And that became a core feature in the genre

[lusty cypress]

We should see a gameshark darkner

[sinful crag]

bad news about his entire class,

[ripe harbor]

tbf theres like 9 people in their class

yeah lmao

I dont think his charms would work on Catti

[strange cloud]

…huh

………..monster kid maybe????

[sinful crag]

obv the romance is for da egg

[strange cloud]

The egg man wants us to romance berdly

It’s true

It’s required for the chapter 5 egg

[lusty cypress]

Would have been funny if in c4 ||we saw a gameshark, and it turns out Alvin cheats at videogames||

[ripe harbor]

and you thought 3 was hard to get....

[dense cargo]

Kris will never forgive us.

[strange cloud]

It’s the only way to get the true ending

[lusty cypress]

||Susie: A priest cheating? Now that's golden. Think we can hold that over him Kris? Could get more of that sick juice
You think of all the matches you lost against that priest. You shall have your vengeance||

[dense cargo]

Chapt 4 ||This is the the part of the Prophecy Ralsei didn't want us to see||

[restive comet]

||I legitimately screamed at that||

[ripe harbor]

||"I wouldn't let that happen, Kris wouldn't let that happen; YOU definitely wouldn't let that happen."||

[inland hare]

would monster kid harm us

because I think he would have one hell of a time trying to harm us

because he's 'armless

i'll throw myself out the window now

monster kid absolutely would destroy us all though

i've looked into their eyes

there's no mercy inside

[vocal elbow]

Undyne only got in their way in UT Genocide.

[dense cargo]

Susie's days are numbered

[ripe harbor]

jokes that are gonna hit different after chapters 5-7

[sharp lodge]

||https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1lill0s/light_world_roaring_knightdessart_by_euclicide/||
fanart of a chapter 3+ character

[dense cargo]

That will only be in many decades!

[tidal fox]

She'll be fine, she's the main character

[restive comet]

||She stole the plot armor||

[dense cargo]

||That's what the Shadow Mantle is||

[low surge]

Chapter 2 question: did Queen ever mention specifically talking to the Knight? I was discussing this with a friend and at least as far as I recall she never seemingly did. More like she observed what the Knight did and tried to replicate it.

[lusty cypress]

Yeah she never talked to the knight

[low surge]

Right I’m just wondering in regards to my theory on || who the knight is and why they’re doing what they’re doing. Currently I’m pretty set on Dess, but without ch4 knowledge I admit I’m playing with a huge gap until then ||

[loud fulcrum]

||Living dead girl||

[sharp lodge]

she didn't talk to the knight
most of the chapter bosses don't, my theory at least for now is that the chapter bosses project their goals and beliefs onto the knight

[lusty cypress]

Oh ||stars appear when making fountains?||

[timber widget]

||Re: the Knight, despite trying to interrupt us, when thinking about the Knight we do see that it has a helmet and it can come off||

[strange cloud]

I wanna make a video analyzing Deltarune and how it uses the concept of freedom

Specifically how it kinda repeatedly shows freedom as sorta… hollow in the face of narrative

The secret bosses and the weird route especially all show a false freedom, specifically in how it equates violence to freedom even if the actual choices being made are no more free then the normal route

[lusty cypress]

Wait
||THe knight hides in large closets, so they can't shapeshift in the light world. Their gear seems to stay the same in the light world
How do they remove the helmet without the antlers getting in the way? Does it open/disassemble? Is getting in and out of the armor a chore?
Of course, the knight is likely too screwed up to have a civilian life and just skulk back to the bunker, but the scenario is just too funny||

[low surge]

|| I especially feel that in regards to ch3 and the secret mini games. Ramb weirded me the fuck out, they knew waaaay too much. It really makes me wonder yeah how “free” we/Kris are and if Kris even wants to do all of it. Like the Spamton Neo fight makes it clear Kris was really freaked out by it. A small detail I didn’t notice was in the final mini game that Kris looks away when you “kill” Susie and Ralsei (I did it by accident) and how they react to the little Kris coming out. And then actively resisting going into the bunker. ||

|| I haven’t done chapter 4 yet but I’m willing to bet that Kris is going to become less and less willing to do secret boss stuff as time goes on seeing as every instance it leads to traumatic shit. Maybe initially enticed by the prospect of Freedom but after seeing how it did noting for Spamton they might become more resistant ||

[sour mesa]

||i'm not even 100% sure it's the knight in the closets||

[restive comet]

||Actually, I think you'll love Ch4's secret boss||

||Not hard to find at all either||

[low surge]

Im excited to get to ch4. I’ve got two days off that I want to use to try and || “beat” the knight for the shadow crystal || and then hopefully start ch4 so I can also unmute all the various keywords and actually start seeing all the art and memes and theories

[restive comet]

||Actually, I suggest not doing that and then experiencing Ch4 more vanilla first||

[sinful crag]

thats what i did, took me a few days to get the fight down so i wish you a swift success

[restive comet]

Ch3 superboss spoiler:

[amber jolt]

It's December, October, and November!

The roaring knight, the boring Knight, and the snoring Knight!

[lusty cypress]

So about knight ||if that's a changed dess you all talked about if she left a piece of herself behind
So, we have that her current state is either her split and leaving behind a piece of herself, or she was corroded/corrupted by the dark
The first could be interesting, you could call it her literal shadow. Too bad we don't know enough about how splitting people would work
The second, if that's all that remains of dess, then we run into the fact we don't know enough about how light and dark affect people||
Too many question marks

[dense cargo]

||True. Considering the incomplete information available, any theory is going to raise a whole lot of questions. We still don't actually know much about the mechanics of Deltarune's world||

[sharp lodge]

https://old.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1liz9vh/weird_route_foreshadow/
potential foreshadowing for chapter 5 weird route

[lusty cypress]

||Well, at least the imagery in my head of Dess wandering the dark, corroding as she forges armor to keep herself alive, is very cool||

[sharp lodge]

||https://deltarune.wiki/w/Ancient_Sweet||
a fun detail about chapter 4 most people aren't gonna see

that's a page from the deltarune wiki btw

||if you avoid getting some specific dark candies in chapter 1 and 2, and don't have any healing items or tension items in your inventory or storage, you get a really old chocolate that kris puts into their dark world inventory. it heals them for 400 hp but everyone else for 40, and their comments imply they didn't like it. susie complains about it being old, ralsei tries to be nice about it, and noelle outright says she'd rather eat meat which is wild coming from a herbivore||

[lusty cypress]

Lol

[lusty cypress]

https://youtu.be/BGxhkML9PCA?si=B4vcPovZLxMf88IX
Reminded of how C4 ||Ralsei instakilled the Gerson statue the party was struggling with, and how he was all in on killing the titan and its spawn||

||Ralsei is either ripped or used a combat spell on the statue||

[inland hare]

||statue had more than a thousand HP too||

[lusty cypress]

||Bro, why does ralsei only whip out his big move when we can't see it||

||Ralsei either has a lot of base combat power or he trained like crazy while waiting for us||

[inland hare]

I think he’s a ||lot stronger than he lets on||

He just ||pretends he’s a fluffy boy in order to encourage us to be pacifist||

[lusty cypress]

||Yeah. I wonder if he has a gym in the castle. Or target practice for his magic||

[inland hare]

||I think he’s was just born like that tbh||

||queen or the king doesn’t need practice to be a boss darkener so why should he||

Still one thing haunts my mind

What is up with the the water

[lusty cypress]

True ||But he has been waiting a long time. He learned baking and sewing to be more useful
I could see him polishing his combat ability for emergencies||

[lusty cypress]

Hm?

[sharp lodge]

There's a lot of imagery that connects water and darkness

[lusty cypress]

Oh that

Fits with how creation myths have water and dark chaos as the primordial state of the world

[wheat adder]

I'm replaying Deltarune all over again (again) (I'm very bored and love this game), and uuuh ||anyone else pointed out yet that Noelle also points when ACTing?||

[lusty cypress]

Yes

[wheat adder]

||Another one for the Dess is Knight pile.||

||Going off of the assumption that Noelle would take some mannerisms from her older sister, which could be likely||

[sharp lodge]

||she could just be imitating kris, but there could be a connection there anyway||

[inland hare]

Yeah it seems like the ||dreemurrs and holidays share a lot of mannerisms||

[ripe harbor]

given the christian imagery

I always think of the book of genesis, maybe?

I mean its not just christian you see it in a lot of myths

Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.```

[inland hare]

WHAT IS THE ||SONG THAT COMES FROM THE SEA||

Why have we heard it before

Have we heard it before?

[ripe harbor]

characters like the word 'new' quite a bit

and its not a 'new' song

[ripe harbor]

yeah this is basically my thought on it

esp when dark is also connected to star

so its dark waters in the space-y sense

[dense cargo]

||It was mentioned in Undertale too right? By the Boat person||

[ripe harbor]

the christian creation myth has the creation of the heavens as 'seperation of waters from waters'

[inland hare]

Yes

[inland hare]

Which is why I’m very ??? About it

It keeps getting brought up

[ripe harbor]

Given its connection to Gaster ||Who is implied to be the speaker at the start and chapter ends, it could literally be 'Deltarune'||

[dense cargo]

||I'm going to take the easy route and write it off as a Gaster thing||

[ripe harbor]

||Since thats the name of the prophecy fortold by time and space, whispered in the shadows. Its a Proper Noun, and it's 'his Deltarune'.||

[dense cargo]

||But then why are people playing Deltarune in the lake? Why can Onion and Susie hear it?||

||Why the Sea?||

[ripe harbor]

idk how did this church form in the first place. Why do the shadows whisper it.

[dense cargo]

||It's probably something we can't answer right now at all||

[ripe harbor]

pretty sure ||theres another allusion to it in the Gerson Fight||

[dense cargo]

||Is there?||

[inland hare]

Yeah

[lusty cypress]

Space whales! Space whales!

[dense cargo]

||Oh yeah, the song singing from the deep||

[inland hare]

Bell tolls for justice

[ripe harbor]

he's so cool

[lusty cypress]

||Also, Onion is gone. If you meet them before, a person from the library is by the lake, telling you not to wait||

[ripe harbor]

he even ||calls it the song singing from the deep||

[inland hare]

Yeah

Onion ||got got||

[dense cargo]

||They learned too much||

[lusty cypress]

Onion ||dug too deep, was too greedy||

[ripe harbor]

and if you want to include 'ringing'

theres whatever this means

[inland hare]

As battle drags on, when ||Susie declares she prefers a never ending story, he declares “ah, so you choose eternity, when the song cries out for justice!” Or something like that||

[ripe harbor]

about the water thing ||I think about Tenna's weird darkness pipes attack and what that might've meant.||

[lusty cypress]

||Lantern ring||

[ripe harbor]

||"I KNEW I shouldn't have done it. But you know, every pipe goes SOMEWHERE!"
"They had to go SOMEWHERE!!!"||

and then later

[dense cargo]

||"At this last hour, with the bells ringing out their justice."||

And then he says:

||Miss, hold on dearly to that thought.
For the tides of fate are drawing close.
And soon, an ocean of ink shall wash across the pages.||

||So still water themed stuff||

[ripe harbor]

||"They're coming out of the pipes. Where are they going? Ahahaha- I... Don't... know!!!"||
(mb though it was actually before)

really odd when he's talking about little blobs of darkness

[inland hare]

I think he could be parroting something he heard

[ripe harbor]

Oh it for sure relates to ||his desire to know who was on the other end of the telephone||

||He 'knew it was a bad idea', but the pipes had to go somewhere. There has to be another end.||

the vibes of the darkness in general definitely make it sound like an endless sea of possibility

and it erupts so readily when you open a fountain

it's pressurized

[inland hare]

Don’t dig too deep

You’ll get murderized

[ripe harbor]

except if you go deep enough sometimes you find a green guy in a little castle town I guess

[dense cargo]

||If you go into the really dark places you will explode across time and space and then people will constantly write theories about you||

[inland hare]

Onder what’s up with papyrus btw

[ripe harbor]

Rare Shelter footage (real) (Chapter 6 spoiler)

[sharp lodge]

interesting detail about the spamton sweepstakes that also relates to chapter 3
||in at least some of noelle's blog posts the 'listening to' section says that she's listening to raise up your bat by blood crushers the band. while the sweepstakes isn't 100% canon, this is still an interesting detail because it suggests that song exists in the light world, which is odd considering how relevant it is to the plot. also, i wonder if this was a band dess was in, it would explain why the lyrics are relevant and why noelle listens to it so much||

[inland hare]

Everyone from undertale to deltarune more or less preserved their personality

[ripe harbor]

for sweepstakes stuff I'm still curious ||what could've been implied by the 'newest_girl_girl' one, what Kris said to susie||

[inland hare]

||except for papyrus, who’s described as being painfully shy||

[ripe harbor]

what could it be implying?

[inland hare]

Well ||newest implies there was a previous||

[ripe harbor]

||With the Sword minigame 'using up' Kris, and multiple characters responding to Kris saying they're going 'Nowhere'||

||I feel like it had to be agreeing with susie's bullying point, right?||

||"One day you'll disappear, and nobody will miss you, and peoples lives will be better for it." -> Kris going ""||

which. doesn't bode well for the prophecy in general

[ripe harbor]

(its charming how chuuni the song is. Believably written by cringe punk teenagers .)

[inland hare]

All shall be well

And all manner of things shall be well

That’s the promise

[dense cargo]

What does Julian of Norwich (or Fallen London maybe) have to do with this?

[ripe harbor]

you know,

the Angels in it's Heaven

all is right on earth

meanwhile, agent of The Beast:

[inland hare]

||Susie is the Dragon||

I’m wondering ||if she’ll get another duel fight later||

[dense cargo]

||While it could be thematically fitting, I don't know if you could make it distinct enough from Gerson's fight on the level of gameplay for it to be interesting.||

[lusty cypress]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6kXQ92EMWU

[lusty cypress]

Hm c4 ||we banish dark beings but also will banish the angel's heaven||

[inland hare]

well ||titans do look angelic||

[ripe harbor]

||Though how you want to square that with 'the angel is the player' take thats gotten more popular is up to you. Idk what the Angel is.||

I feel like its not mentioned enough that in Ralsei's version of the prophecy, the world actually nearly ends before the heroes show up at all

"The sky will run black with terror, and the land will crack with fear.
Then, her heart pounding... the EARTH will draw her final breath.
Only then, shining with hope...

Three HEROES appear at WORLDS' edge."

and (Chapter 4) ||Even in that version of the prophecy the Roaring actually is mentioned before any hero is named||

||So sealing the Angel's Heaven might be stopping the Roaring, but it looks like its gonna start regardless. Probably at the festival.||

[inland hare]

But why do the ||lightners worship the titans if titans are so destructive and they are the angels?||

[lusty cypress]

||I don't get that take
The soul is refered to as the soul in the prophecy as the soul, in a cage
The one connection is that the soul seals the dark fountains and shines, so could be associated with light||

[dense cargo]

||I guess you could say that the Angel being banished is us finishing and therefore leaving the game, thus "meeting our desire". But it's not a theory I find very credible in general ||

[amber jolt]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/533750254978203648/1387095744065966170/SPOILER_snapins-ai_3661804905426801487.mp4?ex=685c1914&is=685ac794&hm=50794d4dbab03271010f32677686909acbe555c7ab11a85f86be7ce45eeb093c&

[ripe harbor]

||Its why I don't particularly think its the case that the Angel's Heaven is the Roaring. Though the one Titan we see so far is absolutely angelic (and with the huge gaping hole in its face, almost like a wounded or fallen Angel?.)||

||The Lightner church in general considers the Angel a benevolent figure, despite banishing it as the ultimate goal of Ralsei's prophecy.||

[inland hare]

I suppose actually Gerson in undertale mentions that angel prophecy is ambiguous

Whether Angel saves everyone by literally saving everyone and thus leaving the underground empty

Or leaves underground empty by killing everyone

[ripe harbor]

to save the day we HAVE to throw noelle down a well. so it is written.

[sour mesa]

it's the only way

[timber widget]

||Also, as mentioned in Alvin's sermon, parts of the prophecy (as the lightners know it) are lost to time||

||Naturally we don't know which parts, since Catty was so cruelly vague in her reading, but||

[inland hare]

Is there a well in town

[ripe harbor]

uhhhhh the shelter. because darkness is water

I guess the closet would also work there

but I cant put noelle in the closet. Not during pride month

[dense cargo]

The lake is probably just a really big well

[lusty cypress]

||Honestly, no reason to assume the angel fits morality, at least as absolute good or absilute evil
Could very well be someone who becomes a threat for some reason or another, likely involving its desire||

[inland hare]

Too many potential hits for who the Angel could be

[lusty cypress]

Really, lots of figures in religions are worshipped but dangerous

[ripe harbor]

Noelle's got way too much for her to not be related in some way to it

[inland hare]

There’s a strange mural in the undertale art book

Featuring a dragon battling what appears to be an antlered angel

Who has a deltarune halo

And two serpents

[ripe harbor]

thats a very old crack theory but if it ends up being true the people who called it are gonna flip their shit

I think ||actual conflict between the party members is near inevitable with all the behind the scenes goals they're working with||

[inland hare]

Yeah

Hilarious that only Susie ||has no ulterior motive||

[dense cargo]

||I've been wondering how Susie is going to react to us possesing Kris. Will she question whether she even really knows the person with whom she has become such close friends?||

||Her conversation with Noelle in Chapter 4 does give away that there is a lot about how Kris normally is that Susie doesn't know.||

[lusty cypress]

||The wording of being a Cage is really gonna worry her too||

[dense cargo]

||Also I don't think Susie would want to stop being Kris's friend in any circumstance, but I wonder if Kris fears she might, considering how attached to her they are.||

[ripe harbor]

||It really depends on what Kris does next with the whole suspiciously helping the Knight thing||

||A big enough betrayal and she'll definitely feel it||

[lusty cypress]

||The soul controls kris, yet is a prisoner
Susie has become a lot more thoughtful, even if she is hotheaded. She's gonna want answers. And the situation might make her disturbed and worried for both parties.
The soul is a prisoner whom kris won't let go
Kris is a puppet who must go along with what the soul chooses
This is a nightmare of power relations and ethics||

[dense cargo]

||I mean, technically insofar as the soul is us, we can just leave right?||

[ripe harbor]

||I dont think so 'in fiction', at least without taking the Soul with us.||

||which covers the world in darkness? but that might happen regardless||

[dense cargo]

||But how much can we hold to an "in fiction" distinction in a game as meta as this?||

[inland hare]

Shrug

[ripe harbor]

What I mean is leaving probably doesnt leave a Kris with the ability to close Dark Fountains or a Soul

[lusty cypress]

||Ehhh
Not sure on that one. Feels cheap if you can just "leave" if you stop playing
Even if so, if we take the text when quitting rather than continuing, it says the world was covered in darkness||

[inland hare]

If Kris is their own character why not the Soul honestly

[dense cargo]

Oh yeah that for sure

[ripe harbor]

and its not like the Soul can leave Kris at any time

||they gotta rip us out||

[lusty cypress]

plus ||we only know kris lasts a night without the soul. No idea if they die wihout it for longer||

[dense cargo]

||I do just find it generally confusing, games like these where the player is both the player and to some degree a character in the game. Never know to which degree it's one or the other.||

[inland hare]

like from undertale

are we chara, are we the heart, are we the narrator, does the narrator exist, is narrator and chara on, what's the distinction etc etc

you can go on forever with stuff like this

[sour mesa]

in Undertale i don't see any need for a player agent separate from frisk

[inland hare]

are we controlling a character who's controlling a character

[lusty cypress]

||I'm just very dubious on the "player is a cruel invader" interpretation the fandom took to. DOesn't feel like what Toby would go for.
I liked how the newest chapter gave kris more agency, since I didn't like fanon reducing kris to a helpless victim. They're a person with their own finger on the intrigue of the game||

[sour mesa]

(with chara narrating)