Undertale and Deltarune

[sour mesa]

||but it would at least act like one||

[dense cargo]

||Then what about it's desire?||

[sour mesa]

||no idea!||

[sharp lodge]

||https://www.tumblr.com/mandatory-blog-stop-asking/785835721281896448/deltarune-spoilers-i-wanna-talk-about-chapter-4||

another knight theory

also, a detail that could potentially be important, ||if you win the knight fight, and then go check toriel, her face is 'contorted in anguish', if you lose she's just sleeping normally||

[dense cargo]

||Yeah, I think the case this theory makes for Dess being the Knight is probably the most persuasive one right now||

||Though I will say that the "distorsion" effect the Knight has when defeated is very similar to the one that happens when you attack the Titan and Titan Spawn||

[sharp lodge]

totally different much more minor thing ||i think i finally get the difference between ralsei with hat and sans hat. it's an example of how things become indistinct in the dark||

||maybe that's what happens to lightners if they spend too long in a dark world without leaving||

[sour mesa]

||Dess as knight is compelling, but I think if anything this undersells how weird the prophecy is in the sanctuary||

||"at last the girl" is a weird way to phrase a hero's introduction, when the prince's introduction calls him the "third" hero||

||so I think that "the girl" and the second hero "with hope crossed on her heart" may be different characters||

[dense cargo]

||But that second hero is also called the Girl||

[crystal shale]

||Fwiw, Gerson also says Susie is "the Dragon"||

[sour mesa]

||also the second hero using a sword is fair to call out as weird but it doesn't look like any one who isn't susie||

[crystal shale]

||Dunno the significance of it, but I felt it was worth pointing out||

[dense cargo]

||According to the wiki, that part of the prophecy is :
THE SECOND HERO.
THE GIRL, WITH HOPE CROSSED ON HER HEART.||

[vocal elbow]

||Another weird bit of the Girl with Sword is that there's two images of her. A normal one and one with a heart.||

[crystal shale]

||I think we can all agree that there's definetly something funky and weird with the Prophecy, regardless of what said weirdness may be||

[dense cargo]

||but yes, it presenting "the second hero" with "at last" is extremely suspicious||

[sharp lodge]

||i thought kinda like that too when i saw that for the first time||

https://verticalstorm.tumblr.com/post/786458796475219968?is_related_post=1

[sour mesa]

https://bsky.app/profile/goblinsorcerer.bsky.social/post/3lrr4f2o6422r

samantha (@goblinsorcerer.bsky.social)

deltatube

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Bluesky · Jun 16, 2025, 11:16 PM

[analog burrow]

Man, ||“When did you start being yourself?” was such a haunting line to see during the titan spawn fight.||

[strange cloud]

I will say, I think people have kinda, theoried themselves into Toby Fox is a very different writer then he actually is

Toby isn’t just like, throw away foreshadowing because he wants a twist you can’t predict type writing

His foreshadowing is always very distinct and obvious in hindsight

People’s theories are often wrong because they think the foreshadowing is foreshadowing something it’s not

But it’s still foreshadowing something

[analog burrow]

Ya

[sour mesa]

undertale is perhaps a weird text to extrapolate foreshadowing trends from, since it's so player-driven (vs deltarune being a little more on-rails)

[strange cloud]

Like, people’s popular interpretation of Tenna was wrong, dude wasn’t some evil mob boss. But he wasn’t made like that for no reason. People just interpreted the foreshadowing Spamton said about Tenna the wrong way

Spamton hated him, and Spamton is also terrible!

[sour mesa]

(thinking about how info is fed to you bit by bit across repeated resets, which doesn't happen quite the same way in deltarune)

[analog burrow]

Also just like, understanding there’s some things that can’t be known for certain + analyzing things from a storytelling perspective goes a long way

[strange cloud]

Yah

Some things aren’t meant to be predicted

Just explained later

Like I don’t think we’ll have a satisfying answer to why Ralsei is so weird until we get to the part of the game where it’s explained why he’s so weird

[strange cloud]

Also like, i think people also just confuse Toby’s writing with like, Scott Cawthorn’s lol

Toby does give answers

It’s not just lore mysteries forever

Like I’m sure stuff like the egg man and Gaster will be explained, eventually and maybe in an obtuse way

[analog burrow]

Like to give an example pf my personal thought process: Going into chapter 3 my assumption was less “Kris is the Knight” and more “We are being led to believe Kris is the Knight”

[strange cloud]

Also, I’m beginning to realize the concept of a whiffle bat is less known then I expected, because I keep seeing people act like Dess hit Kris with like, an aluminum bat

Like I don’t think they’re wrong that’s fucked up, if it were an actual bat

But a whiffle bat is like being hit with a pool noodle

It does not hurt lol

[analog burrow]

Even during the chapter, ||the Sword Game features tenna alluding to a deal between him and Kris. Once I reached the end, I was blown away by the reveal and they way the information clicked together||

[lethal ferry]

||I was watching a playthrough of chapter 3, and the person playing went "I think Kris is the knight" 20 minutes before Tenna got got||

[wheat adder]

Chapter 3 spoilers
||https://bsky.app/profile/tobyfox.undertale.com/post/3lrrhype5gk22||

tobyfox (@tobyfox.undertale.com)

-# ↩ tobyfox (@tobyfox.undertale.com)
Before the game came out, I thought people wouldn't really care about Tenna and simply dismiss him as a budget Spamton. I'm glad everyone seems to like him just fine. I see those two as intentionally similar characters who mutually enhance each other. You know, like Spy vs. Spy.

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Bluesky · Jun 17, 2025, 2:44 AM

[loud fulcrum]

||The similarities are obviously there but we spend so much time with Tenna you get the idea he's much different. Spamton is trying to get one over on you, in my view, while Tenna genuinely wants you to keep hanging out with him||

[dense cargo]

||I still think we spent a bit too much time on Tenna in chapter 3||

[scarlet wadi]

||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGk2LAhdAiA|| ch3 spoilers (I guess)

[inland hare]

A cage

||with human soul and parts||

||that doesn’t mean the cage has to be human, right?||

[lethal ferry]

||The parts are also implied to be human, so I think the cage is probably a human.||

[glacial ibex]

||The body at the start can just be your body, I still dont know if those options are "discarded" in a literal sense, or a metaphorical sense (as in, you had to leave that body behind)||

[lusty cypress]

So
C3 Thinking on Kris ||The question of what Kris wants is an interesting one. Kris is a mystery, the fans built a characterization of them from evidence but also assumption, which is ironic. Much as we bemoan overriding their choices, we can only construct our own mental versions of kris based on biases, assumptions and our wants.
Ramb brings this to the forefront. He knows Kris, though mostly from their childhood. And even he makes mistakes about what they want, even he wonders.
And. I think Kris doesn't know. That's why this weird side quest formed in this world, why this old game is there. Kris has likely struggled with this, being not only a human among monsters, but being a troublemaker and someone interested in trangression, who may have ended in this dark situation out of curiosity.
Growing up already brings questions of identity, which would only add fuel to this mess
So all of this, plus the fact they may have lost their fucking soul and is using a replacement.
Yeah Kris is a mess.
You know what must have scared them about Spamton, besides the falling the inert without strings? For all Spamton was knowledgeable in the forbidden and the holes of reality, for all he saw Kris as his accomplice. He saw no difference between Kris and the soul as entities.
At the start, Kris is terrified of Spamton, backing off as he punches the trash, and the option to leave his shop is "flee". How much the continuous interactions with him have Kris' initiative vs the soul's is unknown, but by the end, Kris is worried about spamton, kicking the Neo mech when it won't start, desperately. They crumble as Spamton appears with the strings and betrays them. They are horrified when cutting the strings makes spamton unable to move (but there's personal anxiety there)||

[wheat adder]

Chapter 3 spoilers
||Has anyone made an analysis on Raise Up Your Bat yet? Cuz like it's the second song in the OST with (technical) lyrics. And it has a whole segment with the Lost Girl motif in it and the lyrics for it are basically foreshadowing in a way? The stuff about following in the dark, hearts shining the dark away, guiding you through the waves…||

[dense cargo]

||The fact that that's the part whose lyrics Ralsei doesn't change is also telling||

[inland hare]

did ||onion san dig too deep||

[dense cargo]

||Its likely||

[inland hare]

onion san ||be sleepin' with the fishes now||

[crystal shale]

||does Onion San say anything on days 3 and 4? I can't seem to activate her on those days||

[strange cloud]

They got him

[inland hare]

||onion san's gone||

||nothing we could do||

[dense cargo]

||At some point the library monster will be there, telling you not to wait for them. Otherwise they never show up.||

[inland hare]

||onion san probably got whacked||

[strange cloud]

We’re gonna find them again ||and they’re gonna be grayscaled||

[inland hare]

susie also ||told me not to wait for them because they aren't showing up||

[dense cargo]

||And at night, Kris and Susie just sit down, and Susie notes the song from beyond the lake||

[inland hare]

but yeah

||I figure onion san dug too deep, found out what they weren't supposed to know||

||and had to be removd||

[dense cargo]

||They might still come back, maybe they just had to go very very far to find where that song is coming from.||

[inland hare]

limbus crossposting (chapter 3 spoiler)

[tidal fox]

real

[lusty cypress]

||More like stage 7. This thing is insane||

[inland hare]

||according to the files it can tank snowgrave||

[amber jolt]

jesus CHRIST

||thats a hella strong watercooler||

[rain barn]

||buble||

[inland hare]

beg for mercy

[crystal shale]

||Boobie||

[inland hare]

Did you know in Chapter 4 ||you can actually get caught by Kris in the kitchen and they throw a fucking bottle at you||

[vocal elbow]

||Or just dive at you if you get too close.||

[inland hare]

||https://youtube.com/shorts/D3n-vU2rKV0?si=XIEvU9WLSWfyW0LH||

[dense cargo]

||It gets Kris to start playing the piano afterwards||

[loud fulcrum]

||God that bit was so fucking cool, especially with all the moments where you try and play the piano and fuck up, which I assume is cause the Soul is driving||

[crystal shale]

||Later if you try to tell Susie to never play Piano, Kris will bite their tongue until you lose health instead of saying anything||

[dense cargo]

||It's interesting to see Kris intervene more against your choices these chapters. In Ch 4 they don't let you be cruel to Ralsei when you're in his room.||

[crystal shale]

||they also try really hard to fight your influence in the Snowgrave route||

||especially when it comes to Noelle||

[dense cargo]

||Which is notable since before the new chapters got released many people thought Kris didn't like Ralsei very much||

[crystal shale]

||I wouldnt be surprised if Kris is the final boss of the Weird Route tbh||

||Using everything they have left to fight you, the player||

[strange cloud]

||I gotta say, Asgore fans expecting chapter 5 to be a big win for him are almost certainly deluding themselves. A fire scorching from jealousy does not sound like it’s something that’s good to see for the guy who’ll probably light it on fire||

[inland hare]

Yeah

[crystal shale]

||Also I wonder if we'll learn more about Susie's home life. Aside from the fact its bad.||

[strange cloud]

Man

These new chapters dropping has got me in a fic writing mood

Just… don’t know what I wanna write lol

[sour mesa]

Try writing..... Suffering!

[strange cloud]

That is true

Hmm, I do love writing Kris

[tardy glade]

||thinking about chapter 5's festival and how that's most likely gonna get everyone in one place. i can see some things are gonna get aired out regarding the dreemurrs and holidays, dess, etc. (especially with toriel and carol potentially running into each other...)||

[sour mesa]

Knight speculation spoilers
||https://bsky.app/profile/mbhare.bsky.social/post/3lrtma2tp3s2h||

Maddy B. Hare (@mbhare.bsky.social)

love how both Japanese and international fans compare notes on Deltarune stuff specifically because of how hands-on the dev team has been with localization.

Bluesky · Jun 17, 2025, 11:05 PM

[silver yoke]

||Sans undertale boning your mom, jesus christ. Just finished chapter 4||

[wheat adder]

Woah, just got this video in my recommendations
||https://youtu.be/BkNYAcY2dyQ?si=Ixy-X-SUidnL2hvB||

[wheat adder]

||The dark eye being present in the spectrogram is actually really interesting, even if it doesn't really prove anything yet…||

[sharp lodge]

||a comment suggests it could be an accident, jsyk||

[wheat adder]

||Way I see it, it seems less accidental now that we are seeing the eyes everywhere (almost) in Deltarune. That or it was an accident but Toby took it and decided to make something with it.||

Another thing, related to chapter 4s egg
||Someone here said they were able to place the chapter 4 egg somewhere in the light world? Iirc it was QC's diner? How?? Because I've replayed the whole chapter and have found no way to go back to the diner besides just the end of the chapter during night time, but I can't find out how to place it there either??||

[wheat adder]

Oh I just found a new secret room in chapter 4 I hadn't seen on my first play through
||The chest contained a PrincessRBN||

[lethal ferry]

||odd looking tail||

[wheat adder]

||lmao yeah||

||Room can be found behind the book cases in the 3rd dark world.||

[dense cargo]

||It’s the one with the annoying climbing section right?||

[strange cloud]

Assuming ||Dess is the voice that interrupts Gaster during the goner maker sequence then her interactions with Kris if she ever regains the ability to speak would be so funny||

||“It broke my heart to put that soul inside you.”

“…what,”

“Now I know that sounds bad…”||

[wheat adder]

||Idk what climbing section you're talking about since there are loads of them, but the room does have one yeah.||

[inland hare]

Limbus cross posting for chapter 4: on why Ryoshu is a bad influence for children

[lusty cypress]

(I only know up to chapter 3). Man, Ann Tenna is such a guy. I really feel for him
||He is selfish, but he also wants the community to be together again. Truly a guy stuck in the past
Darkners are rather troubled, huh? Usually have a sense of abandonment, or a worry for their lightners. This makes me think, what are the issues of Town as a community, and how that affects the darkners and their worlds.||

[inland hare]

i think the town generally has this deep sense of loss pervading it

everyone's missing something

[strange cloud]

Especially since there are all these events people keep talking about but never actually talking about

Like so many NPCs reference incidents in the past that are just kinda, common knowledge

But they never actually get into them

[inland hare]

And also like

[strange cloud]

They just happened and everyone has to live with it

[inland hare]

Catti is enemies with Bratti, Alphys never got anywhere with Undyne, whole Asgore and toriel thing, Asriel is missing, Gerson is dead, snowy’s mom is dead, etc etc etc

[strange cloud]

Yah

Everyone has all these things in the past that they refuse to actually talk about

Just reference

[inland hare]

Everything is just off in a specific way

[vocal elbow]

Asriel isn't missing

[inland hare]

Missing from the story I mean

[vocal elbow]

Ah

[inland hare]

Anyways back to what I was saying—everyone is missing a certain relationship they held valuable

Which also rolls around to how in the dark world, shattering a relationship makes you powerful

[loud fulcrum]

||Who did you give Tenna to in Chapter 4? I gave him to Mettaton, seemed like they'd get on||

[strange cloud]

I did

||the dreemure house isn’t getting any better any time soon||

||its best to give Tenna to someone who’ll actually use him again||

[inland hare]

Yeah|| gave mine to mettaton||

[strange cloud]

He’s clearly ||still unhappy in Castle town||

[lusty cypress]

The "missing relationship" vibes get interesting, when you think about how Town recently got isolated

No internet, streets closed off

[inland hare]

Yeah

[strange cloud]

I can’t wait for Alphys’s “primal form”

[inland hare]

Queen mentions how internet was basically the band aid to the town’s sense of loss

By basically replacing their missing relationships with internet parasocials

Without it the void in the people’s hearts will surely grow larger

And perhaps that’s the source of the determination that opens up dark fountains?

Emptiness and the dark are closely associated after all

[lusty cypress]

(I'm up to chapter 3) I wonder if Town is not in the light, being instead between dark and light
Or at least closer to the dark than the rest of the planet

[lusty cypress]

PLus fountains create a whole new world, filled with wonders and friends

[inland hare]

If light is truth than darkness is wish probably

The darkness can conjure up wonders and friends

but they aren’t real

Eat an entire feast in the dark world

You’ll be just as hungry as before

But yeah I think there’s an important point to how a lot of people in the town have this foreboding sense of loss of an important relationship

[lusty cypress]

Matchstick girl type beat

Oh that'd be a cool character to have

Person who has lived a long time in the dark worlds, wielding a flame lantern and scared of going back out. So experienced, she can easily guide other people who get lost in the worlds

[inland hare]

The Light is real

We are the realest thing in the game world

Light can reveal secrets and guide us

But an alternative reading is that the light is merciless

It doesn’t care about your wishes, your fears, whatever

It will show you the truth and force you to confront reality whether you want to or not

[tidal fox]

once again, Nobilis dynamic strikes 😛

[inland hare]

Even in non-weird routes we can push Kris to doing something they won’t ordinarily do

[strange cloud]

Device theory bby

[lusty cypress]

Chapter 3 ||The knight's hands have a big emphasis to them. They have holes. Seem to draw things in. They glow before the big desperation attack||

[dense cargo]

||They kind of look like they have stigmata||

[inland hare]

get pk stormed

[lusty cypress]

||Yeah, the religious theming is interesting
Rudy has a faceless angel doll, I think||

[sage needle]

||Rudy's doll is a handmade replica of the one in the holiday basement||

[inland hare]

it falls on us

||ARE WE THE ANGLE??????||

[crystal shale]

||No im stuff||

|| ||

[inland hare]

By the way do you think ||the sudden wind that blows when you reveal your Presence to Noelle in the weird route is diagetic||

[timber widget]

Not impossible tbh

[sharp lodge]

||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yoCELdOIrs||
someone made a ytp of ||tenna's intro scene||

[timber widget]

||You can't be cis! This show makes you an egg!|| lmao

[lusty scarab]

Okay finally

Beat Deltarune

[analog burrow]

Hey thats me, mb. What was actually the case is ||that the man would appear in the diner if you got the egg in chapter three.|| I just interpreted something I saw wrong

[analog burrow]

Don’t forget several odd things with ||Kris’s hands too. Chapter 1 shadowcrystal, 1225 Prize machine, and the chapter 4 egg room come to mind.||

[strange cloud]

How were the runes?

I hear there’s four of them

[analog burrow]

Were they sufficiently Delta?

[lusty cypress]

I said I was on chapter 3

up to chapter 3

Okay, gonna avoid looking at most people's spoiler text even if they're replying to me
Charlie I know I can trust

[analog burrow]

ah shi sorry :(

[restive comet]

||You mean H I M?||

[lethal ferry]

||gaster just getting some decent food for once||

[restive comet]

Btw, question for people who went out of their way to find secrets in Ch3 and 4?
||Where in tf am I supposed to put the eggs for those chapters???||

[lethal ferry]

||i don't believe there is anywhere to put them?||

[restive comet]

https://art.ngfiles.com/images/6269000/6269854_1492386_mega-kot_untitled-6269854.44ad974dcdf0a1727257135c15ca49be.gif?f1733710697

[restive comet]

Ch3&4:
||It just me or does the new stuff through the secret route make the game feel like a real-life SCP now???||

||It might just be a coincidence, but I keep having nightmares since I finished the latest chapters, specifically ones that I can't remember and I only know I have because my partner keeps waking me up, telling me that I'm thrashing and making distressed sounds in my sleep||

[white basalt]

many have likened the weird route to the adjacent realm of creepypastas

[restive comet]

||I haven't even done the weird route, but the secret stuff in Ch3 along with the egg rooms in 3 and 4 left me with a slow burn||

||I feel like I sold my soul by opening the game somehow||

[lethal ferry]

||Do you mean the stuff in ch 4?||

||i don't remember what's in ch 3||

[restive comet]

||The private game room in Ch3||

[amber jolt]

|| https://www.tumblr.com/megalo224/786009552320610304?source=share || chapter 4 spoilers(?)

i saw this on the bird site and I really wanted to post it here

thankfully the artist is on tumblr

[sour mesa]

gottem

[restive comet]

Beautiful

[tropic valve]

Chapter 4 completed

Have not done the weird route or any superbosses

[ripe harbor]

wow that really was a
Deltarune Chapters 3 and 4

||the whiplash with sans at the end was crazy I was not expecting that at all||

[ripe harbor]

dreams both in the sense of sleeping & aspirations

[strange cloud]

From Twitter @turboemmy

[ripe harbor]

whats interesting is, like you mention with things being off, its the dark worlds that actually let people confront truths

most of the positive character growth comes from stuff thats easy to ignore in day-to-day life getting magnified in the fantasy

prior to chapters 3 + 4, a lot of my thematic reads were tied up in Identity and societal perception,

||with all the eyes, and susie's arcs through the two new ones, I'm doubling down on that for sure.||

[wheat adder]

||I went from "Wow, that was a way to end chapter 4…" after fighting the titan, to "Wow, that was a way to end chapter 4…" when I went through that house's door.||

[ripe harbor]

Its like,

to be seen is to be defined

and to be defined is to be put into a place

[ripe harbor]

I kept thinking about the Chapter 3 ||Fight text with the Knight|| for this

||'Susie is hurt and beaten' whenever she's downed, like Ralsei's 'Ralsei is a pile of fluff'||

also ||Gerson was fantastic as a character||

[lethal ferry]

The mortifying ordeal of being known

[lusty scarab]

I still need to figure out why everyone in Chapter 3 was sneezing

[strange cloud]

The TV is probably dusty with how little it’s been used recently

And while Tenna is the TV, the entire TV world is basically his doing

From dialogue with the camera man we know something else more “natural” (or as natural as a dark world can be) existed before Tenna overlayed the TV world on top of it

And in those brief glimpses of that original world we see in the opening to the chapter, there’s giant dust bushes everywhere

[ripe harbor]

funny

[strange cloud]

The duality of theorist

[ripe harbor]

feeling like he was able to do this in part because ||the TV was literally brighter than anything in the room, right?||

||like he shaped it because he was the light||

[strange cloud]

Maybe yah

[amber jolt]

|| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFExIocvdZc ||
|| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAI_a3zPJDk ||
chapter 4 spoilers

holy shit its been a week

also to any isaac players here

:)

[strange cloud]

I really do think a lot of common Deltarune theories are unlikely because they’d make the game suck ass

I have to much faith in Toby as a writer for a lot of these theories to be true

[lusty scarab]

I'm really enjoying Deltarune's themes at least

[strange cloud]

Oh same

The game is amazing

[ripe harbor]

most of my pre-chapter 3 character reads were dead on, except ||I actually wasn't expecting Kris to be so commited to working behind the scenes + manipulating other characters||

ngl ||I felt a little betrayed when they smiled during the Knight fight my first time||

but thats just because ||its pretty hard to get a read on Kris compared to other characters, just because you don't see them as much.||

most of the time you just gotta, like, trust the emotions characters portray

if your theory involves saying 'maybe 90% of this characters on screen time is a Clever Trick', idk. Back to the Mike Board with you.

||Wonder what their primary motivation is. Dess? Escapism? Getting rid of us?||

||Its super clear that Kris cares about Susie, so whatever is motivating them to lie to her face in a way shes explicit about hating + leads to her getting hurt must be pretty major||

[ripe harbor]

hmm, the ||'cut on the eye' error poem might be referring to the Titan's faces?||

cause like

||they have one||

[timber widget]

||Error poem||?

[ripe harbor]

its something in the files (and not the new ones, its been around since at least chapter 2 and I think since chapter 1) as a placeholder / inaccessable string, in the error handlers

if you stitched a few of the error handler sentences together, the ones that rhymed, they made a poem:

Is that a cut on your face, or part of your eye?
The gash weaves down as if you cry
The pain itself is reason why

||before this drop, people who knew about them tended to go AHHHHH GASTER. But I think the questioning nature and 'as if you cry' line fit the titans being 'mindless' better||

||esp when they seem to be made by literally stabbing the ground deeper and deeper. They are 'pain itself', maybe?||

[dense cargo]

Which theories do you have in mind, if you are willing to say?

[strange cloud]

The idea that the ending to Deltarune is gonna be the world ending and undertale’s world being created

[dense cargo]

Yeah that would be both predictable and a very disappointing conclusion

[timber widget]

Doesn't UT's world already exist in TV world, "under" the studio?

[sour mesa]

Where are you getting that?

[crystal shale]

Yeah I've never seen anything indicating that

[sour mesa]

I'm intrigued

[sharp lodge]

i think it's talking about chapter 3 ||one of the npcs talking about how tenna's theater was built on top of something else. which imo is more about the tv having replaced other forms of entertainment. i have nothing to back that up but i still like that idea||

[dense cargo]

||I thought that was talking was about the dusty dark land that surrounds the studio, where you start the Chapter, the one that looks like the outskirts of Castle Town||

[sharp lodge]

||yeah. maybe it resembles ralsei's dark world in chapter 1 because they are (or were in tenna's case) empty||

[lusty cypress]

C3 ||I think it's the kitchen
The sink, the stove, the metal uh table connected to the sink.||

[dense cargo]

||Is it? The first thing you see when you get there is the couch||

[lusty cypress]

||I meant the theatre||

[timber widget]

||Specifically, Shuttah outside the green room after board two, saying the studio was built upon "a land like purple cliffs. A cold waste, a watery basin, a metal desert," mirroring the areas in UT||

[lusty cypress]

||A darkner says it was built over something else||

[dense cargo]

||Wouldn't it be presumably closer to the place the TV is, rather than in the kitchen?||

[lusty cypress]

||The fridge, the sink, the stove. Was my read||

[timber widget]

||Can't it be both?||

[lusty cypress]

||I guess so||

[dense cargo]

||It being literally being built over UT as opposed to just paralleling it as a reference would raise so many questions||

[lusty cypress]

||You know, there was that meme of undertale final battle being ralsei abd the kid being high, in the police station as toriel picks them up||

||Maybe Kris played make believe and made a world similar to UT. It became part of the house Dark World and Tenna, like with the videogame, built new things over the old to attract interest again||

[dense cargo]

||At least some of these places do show up as part of TV world. Off the top of my head, the purple cliffs is the Couch Cliffs at the beginning, and the cold waste is the Cold Place at the end.||

[lusty cypress]

||Ann tenna and the dark world are very focused on the fun the dreemurr and holiday families had in that home||

[sour mesa]

Now this is interesting

[lusty cypress]

||Huh. Wait. Doesn't noelle sometimes hold the fridge open, dissociating? I think it was mentioned||

[sharp lodge]

||that does sound familiar||

[dense cargo]

||Was it back in Ch 2 maybe?||

[lusty cypress]

||Either chapter 2, or lore Toby gave outside the game while developing c3 and c4||

[timber widget]

Yeah, ||diamond head NPC in Sans' store in ch 2||

||"Guess she really likes the cold. Or waffles."||

[dense cargo]

||Also thinking about it a bit more I think your read is spot on, it probably is the Kitchen||

[inland hare]

And then there’s this weird concept art in undertale art book || https://preview.redd.it/interesting-concept-art-in-the-undertale-art-book-v0-aqmsvm2armnd1.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=d92a196bf757acea6ce42888bd437d08b0bf32b7||

Depicting an ||Angel battling a dragon||

Couldn’t ||Undertale write over Deltarune, instead of the other way around?||

[dense cargo]

||Wouldn't that lead us to the theory MagmaNaught was rejecting?||

[wheat adder]

||"You are the dragon" - Gerson "Old Man" Boom, at Susie||

||Also considering that the Deltarune religion seems to exist in Undertale, it could be safe to assume that Undertale also has the same Prophecy.||

[inland hare]

Might be pieces of the prophecy then?

||the dragon battles the angel which have three heads||

[sour mesa]

"actually it's a different, unrelated Deltarune" would be very funny

[inland hare]

I think ||You, as in the soul, likes Chocolate||

||both Ralsei and Susie will guess Kris likes Chocolate if you don’t answer the question||

[dense cargo]

||Wouldn't that kind of break the Soul being You though?||

||If You have a pre-written characterization||

[wheat adder]

||It's kinda very clearly shown that the town as a whole knows more about Asriel than Kris, but the two of them always kinda came together as a duo to most people, so maybe Asriel likes chocolate, but Kris just thinks it's ok, but because Asriel likes chocolate everyone assumes Kris does too? But Kris actually likes pie||

[dense cargo]

||Kris does like chocolate, I think Toriel mentions it. They might just like pie more.||

[vocal elbow]

||I mean, we do see Kris just down a glass of chocolate milk so I would assume they likes it.||

[timber widget]

They

||Also Kris heals the most from ChocoDiamond||

[strange cloud]

||Yah I think the pie question was more about preference then specifically liking pie||

||We see them drink a whole bottle of chocolate milk||

||they absolutely like it||

[vocal elbow]

Oops, my bad

[timber widget]

||I think the question was also meant to specifically trip up the player, who only sees Kris liking chocolate||

[dense cargo]

||And would possibly make assumptions based on Undertale (it's what I did the first time)||

[sour mesa]

||I haven't ruled out the possibility that the red soul is from Undertale||

[velvet olive]

Chapter 2 ||Kris eats an entire tin of pie. It's implied not to be the first time.||

[lusty cypress]

Oh the addisons miss spamton

C4 ||Oh the king knows of the knight and admire them, but he never met them. Queen just knew the knight as a great mysterious figure.||

||Ralsei and Susie appreciate each other's growth||

Nimi: I wish Ralsei was my landlord

Rouxl what the fuck

||mysterious ralsei room||

||He never made a room for himself||

Seam has a reisen doll???

||Is mettaton and tenna a couple now? Roflmao||

||Mettaton fucks your tv, maddie wants to fucks your dad. Bruh||

||Noelle's room has trans colors.|| Someone posted trans flags in Nimi's chat
||Noelle loves angel wings, same, same||

I was right! ||The game gives a section where you're separate from kris.||

||Kris is getting orders through the phone?||

[inland hare]

“||it’s for you”||

[lusty cypress]

||Asgore you moodkiller
Creepy mom carol is in||

||That mom gotta get dusted||

Also bro chat is annoying ||they kept spamming the password||

It's late

Anyway, thoughts so far
||Asgore has gotten some ambiguous obsession
Carol or asgore are implied to be in cahoots with Kris.
Only they interfered after kris called their accomplice. Carol says YOU in full red, which implies the soul, though she says you are welcome any time. Which can be justified, Kris is always watching over the soul to make sure it doesn't learn too much||

||or, the accomplice inflenced thing so Carol got home earlier||

[sharp lodge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ3DEnvJ464&list=PLrKiLkHoQIKnaTzOLzWcFOL6_1jq5KUMv&index=58

[sharp lodge]

||asgore's obsession seems to relate to dess somehow. carol seems to share it too cause during the part where kris took their soul out you can look a little into her room and she has a conspiracy corkboard there||

[inland hare]

Yeah

It seems like ||Carol is supporting Asgorems investigation||

||which toriel sees as supporting some harebrained conspiracy theory||

[lethal ferry]

||asgore has a "black shard" as well.||

[lusty cypress]

Tomorrow: ||Church Dark World||

[inland hare]

Chapter 5 tomorrow?

[lethal ferry]

deltarune tomorrow

[sage needle]

||https://bskye.app/profile/remanedur.bsky.social/post/3lre2gjjpus2x|| Chapter 3

[ripe harbor]

yeah looks like it

I'm curious about ||Asriel's computer having a Seam sprite on it. Thats very ||

[amber jolt]

||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAfzl6ApUwk ||

chapter 3 spoilers

i think

[sour mesa]

RALSEI

[amber jolt]

I absolutely chortled when ||I saw Ralsei change the lyrics of the song||

goddddddddddddd

also I love that ||After the 999th note, the combo counter over kris just says BIG||

[tropic valve]

It's such a good edit

I would love to see a full cover where someone sings the ralsei lyrics

[inland hare]

There is one already

[tropic valve]

No I meant of this dragonforce meme one

[inland hare]

https://youtu.be/cvIcLfpFVp0?si=wXACk9A9tQSpKn1T

[lusty scarab]

Man

Toby writing Kris hits such a hyper-specific feeling I had as a kid of being the off-putting younger sibling of a social butterfly older brother

[rain barn]

mood, it feels laser targeted

[timber widget]

Oh, right

[ripe harbor]

something so odd about (Chapter 4) ||The motifs and design of the Titans||

||the strong association with stars (and wishing on them), that they are literally made of Dark Fountains - the music for them being THE HOLY, obviously all the pure-white feathered wings around its head, and the fact its body looks 'wounded'||

||Its like theres a strong set up for them actually being representative of something 'sacred', or something that shouldn't exist as it is but went wrong somehow, like a fallen angel||

||which doesn't preclude them from being mindless forces of destruction now||

but it just wasn't what I was expecting

[dense cargo]

||Probably relates to whatever their relationship with the Angel is||

[ripe harbor]

||thats kinda what I'm getting at. But it looks like it might be complicated than 'two opposing forces / sides'||

||The theme of the first battle with one is even called 'Guardian'||

if ||Titans are dark fountains that woke up, can you reverse the relationship? Are normal dark fountains 'just' sleeping Titans? Something something sleeping Angels?||

Feels like it ||might be the first sort of explanation for why Castle Town has a 'purer' Dark Fountain than the rest, if its tapped into a 'purer' source of this power||

||as in, it might be a larger or greater 'shard' of whatever the Titans are. Idk.||

[timber widget]

CW realistic human heart ||https://www.tumblr.com/nebbeli/786616655808790528/captcha ||

[ripe harbor]

this is all pretty wildly speculative I feel

[dense cargo]

||One thing I do wonder about is whether the end of the World predicted by the Prophecy is actually the Roaring. The Prophecy weirdly phrases it as a conditional, which it doesn't do anywhere else afaik,
IF THE FOUNTAINS FREED, THE ROARING CRIES.
AND TITANS SHAPE FROM DARKENED EYES.||

[ripe harbor]

I was actually underlining to my friends before the recent drop the detail that

||Its never specified that The Roaring and the Angels Heaven are the same event / thing, and the pprophecy about the party is specific in that they'll seal the second||

[dense cargo]

||Yeah||

[ripe harbor]

so like who knows

hopefully the chapter titled 'Prophecy' will explain

|| ||

its the wording of some parts ||of the prophecy too||

||If fountains 'freed', darkness 'growing' under the earth||

||As if the 'normal' state of the game and the world is them- what? In captivity? Bound? Sealed away? I just cant stop thinking of the Grigori / Watchers as a possible inspiration.||

||Between that and the way dark fountains look and act, theres a real vibe to the dark that its a sort of pressure just beneath everything that wants to burst forth. It only doesn't because something is holding it back.||

[ripe harbor]

also this goes hard

[sharp lodge]

https://old.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1lfwulw/spoiler_comic_getting_to_the_top_of_the_stairs_in/?ref=share&ref_source=link

comic has chapter 4 spoilers

[strange cloud]

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8ryn66y/

It won’t embed properly so I’m just posting it

[lusty cypress]

C4 ||Piano puzzles. And the knight||

||splitting the party, eh?
Swords with eyes||

||nope, knight threw them together||

Oh ||Gueis are ghosts||

||If fountains freed, the roaring cries. And titans shape from darkened eyes||

||toothpaste boy||

||Oh, the darkness and sound thing is cool||

||Gerson, eh?||

||Bearded ralsei||

[ripe harbor]

wild ||that they made him a turtle|| considering ||he's the GOAT||

[lusty cypress]

I saw first spoiler, wo 't read sexomd yet

Pffft ||he debuffed enemies and increased the mercy bar||

||Ralsei stool||

||Is gerson criticizing the prophecy||
||"Following prophecy so closely I couldn't see where I was going"||

||Gerson is doing the obnoxious wise mentor thing, oh god||

[ripe harbor]

||in such a fun way, too. He loves trolling.||

[wheat adder]

Guess I'm replaying chapter 4… again

||Apparently if you donate D$10k at the fountain, you get an armour.||

[lusty cypress]

||Gerson can recruit||

||Belltower. Dark souls time||

||Susie is all business. She got very serious and anxious||

||Princesses?||

||Ralsei wonders about something in the library||

[timber widget]

||Oh, that we may become worthy of but a drop of their love!||

[lusty cypress]

||first and last notes of the conundrum. It mentions no half. Hmmm.||

||Susie really liking the prophecy. Oh no||

||Light in the eyes defies the darkness||

[ripe harbor]

(probably my favorite normal enemies of the 2 chapters. ||The way they march is adorable||)

[lusty cypress]

||Why is ralsei quiet on the prophecy, hmmm?
Also, they could walk in the dark until ralsei turned on the light||

Spooky time

[timber widget]

Ah, right

Dammit, why are all the good dr posts on twitter

[lusty cypress]

You could take a acreenshot?

||Jackenstein is cool but damn, looks like a long fight
Good jokes though||

[timber widget]

Good call

[ripe harbor]

hmmmmmmmm wild speculation theory (Major Chapter 4 spoilers!)

||so, the Knights actions don't make sense if they want to kill the party or merely start the Roaring, right? Thats pretty well established, because they're clearly holding back in most encounters, and very specifically don't even make a Dark(er?) Fountain until the Gang is literally right in front of them||

||Well, what if you take the track name for the Titan literally - Guardian, something that guards. What if you actually can enter a Dark Fountain in a Dark World, get darker & darker & deeper & deeper, except that trying to do so summons a big fuck-off enemy that starts destroying everything.||

||While the Knight is way stronger than the party for now, they dont seem to actually be able to seal fountains - the thing that actually stops the Titan they summon. If the Knight wants to get deeper into the dark, go another layer down (like, if they were looking for something lost), It'd give them a strong motivation for cultivating the party like they do. They need a battering ram to actually get past the Titan summoned when you try to go further||

on a scale from Z to Tv-Tastic how much is this cooking

[lusty cypress]

Oh, c4 ||The knights are cups lmao. So the princesses must be pitchers||

||Toby. Have you been looking at watercoolers in a.
Strange way
Lately?||

||Nimi Nightmare just find the ball attack even weirder now
You know, the ball in the center with white projectiles going into it||

[dense cargo]

||But when the Titan is defeated that Fountain is sealed right?||

[sour mesa]

Iiiiiinteresting

I could see it

[dense cargo]

||So they would need to enter the fountain before sealing it, when the Titan is still active||

||Which is basically what Kris and Susie do during the fight||

[lusty cypress]

C4||So Church darkners fear the knight, unlike the other worlds who admired them. Many darkners attack because they think kris is the knight||

||Hm. Wild shot, but what if kris' original soul is the knight?||

||That's why they could force kris down||

[dense cargo]

||Wait when do you mean?||

[ripe harbor]

idk its definitely not a complete idea - ||it wouldn't explain why the Shelter is involved or why the knight is kidnapping (specific?) people||

but I think looking at motivation and actions is prolly gonna get a clearer idea than anything else

||whatever it is, seems Dess related, esp for giving Kris a reason to work with them.||

[sharp lodge]

||i thought the fountain turned into the titan, or at least the pillar it breaks out of ||

[lusty cypress]

||if you "beat" the knight in chapter 3, they don't attack kris. They hold the sword on kris shoulder and make them kneel. Then suddenly, they are laying down||

[ripe harbor]

they do ||pose with the Knife in the same general way Kris does, smile in the same way, and have that strong red association||

[dense cargo]

||Oh alright, I was just not sure which moment you meant||

[ripe harbor]

that moment isn't even as major to me as ||Kris smiling in the fight if you ACT while their friends get beaten. Thats cold.||

[dense cargo]

||Though they also start fighting more seriously the more their friends get knocked out||

[sour mesa]

oh i missed that

[ripe harbor]

||I felt betrayed||

[lusty cypress]

||Oh the extra angles green mode looks like a turtle shell||

[sour mesa]

wack!

[lusty cypress]

C4 ||So gerson implies the chapter 5 will be asgore's flower shop and jealousy
Watch the jealousy be from Mad dummy/mew mew, who wants that faildad and is jealous of rudy||

[ripe harbor]

tbf ||I dont think its based on them going down specifically I just didnt have the mantle on this encounter & couldn't dodge the attacks yet but still. Whadda hell Kris!||

[dense cargo]

||Yeah they just do that after you act with them the first time||

[lusty cypress]

||It all stopped. Holy shit, sans reference||

[ripe harbor]

I really like ||His dialogue overall with Susie||

||"But I see a story burnin' in your eyes. Burnin' bright, burnin' black. burnin' up everything."||

oh wait that might be slightly later I got my lines mixed up 💀

[lusty cypress]

||Oh lol nimi spent the rest of the stream rematching gerson||
||Anyway, very cool. Here I was, lamenting some cool concepts stuck in hoyo story prison, and Gerson pops up as the perfect encapsulation of the concepts I liked, lmao||

[sour mesa]

||nvm wiki says it's not specific to ally downed status||

[lusty cypress]

Is there a full transcript of ||the hammer of justice battle lines?||

[dense cargo]

||I think there is on the wiki||

[ripe harbor]

yeah I didn't think it was

||but its the context of these events as being something Kris wants, to the point they can smile while they all go down, when the fight involves everyone getting brutally taken out||

[dense cargo]

|| Kris wanting the fight to go that way seems definitley true. It does make me wonder why they don't hold back their attacks the whole time though.||

[ripe harbor]

||Even if they are working together, I don't get the vibe of the Knight as a 'person' in the same way given all the animalistic screaming and distorted laughter - there might legitimately be some danger to them losing control and seriously hurting the party or something idk.||

but ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[dense cargo]

||They seem pretty controlled through most of Ch 4 though. They even take time to taunt Susie twice||

[ripe harbor]

I cant comprehend the nature of Toby's attack

[dense cargo]

None of us can

[dense cargo]

||And even in their fight, their motions in combat seem very confident and skilful||

[ripe harbor]

they definitely ||are more sassy and taunting esp in chapter 4 - a point towards Dess in some capacity||

||because thats how I'd expect a college-age punk to act lmao||

[sharp lodge]

||someone described the knight as cocky, loud and arrogant, and i think the first two could fit dess with what we've heard about her||

[dense cargo]

||I still think the Dess connection is the most likely one||

[ripe harbor]

||but I don't think calling it Dess would be exactly right either, maybe a piece of her? A shadow? Darkness brought forward in her shape to try and re-create her?||

[dense cargo]

||There's also the obvious antlers, and the sword looking like a baseball bat||

||And the cold wind||

[ripe harbor]

in ||the chapter you hear 'raise up your bat' for the first time too||

[dense cargo]

||Though I guess two of those are just a general Holiday thing||

[ripe harbor]

||I'd be surprised if Carol was that.... fucked up, in the Dark world though. Like the Knight shapeshifts, has their mouth and eye morph, roars, all sorts of weird motions||

[dense cargo]

||Also I still think the Knight's first attack looks as much like snowflakes as it does stars||

[ripe harbor]

||Or at least that messed up without being able to see it in the Light World too||

[dense cargo]

||That's true||

[ripe harbor]

I thought they were this at first tbh. Later in the fight I assumed it was doing a dual-sorta thing

where it was both

[dense cargo]

||Though we also know that the Knight can exist in the Light World||

[ripe harbor]

||Though their weapon existing in both unchanged imo kind of implies they might not be working by the same rules as the object-darkners - after all, the Titans are implied to be able to 'swamp' the Light World in the Roaring & the Knight shares their monochrome color scheme and element||

||They might 'bring' the dark with them...? But this wouldn't really explain things like the closet||

[dense cargo]

||Which isn't something I would think of for Dess, considering most theories as to her disappearance||

[inland hare]

but ||why is their weapon specialized for killing titans||

since ||Black shard is a piece of the Knight's weapon and it does extreme damage to titan related foes||

[ripe harbor]

I was thinking during chapter 3 about how ||If the Dark World is 'dreams', perhaps an agent inside could influence the waking world through dreams - maybe they can like possess sleeping people?||

[inland hare]

also

[dense cargo]

||The Knight's relationship to the Titans is weird. They look similar to the Titans in Ralsei's Prophecy, and share a color scheme, as well as similar effects when damaged. But the Shard hurts dark. ||

[ripe harbor]

this is also kinda where I was at with ||them trying to cultivate the party to get past the Titans||

[inland hare]

I'd like to note that the ||knight might be someone for whom Gerson was very important?||

since ||Gerson appeared in the dark world it created... twice||

[dense cargo]

||Couldn't Alvin have been the one to make the Dark World?||

[inland hare]

could be!

he does ||seem involved somehow some way||

||but gerson also shows up right at the end when the knight creates the titan fountain||

[dense cargo]

||I'd chalk that up to heroic timing||

||Hammer of Justice and all that||

||That, or it took that long for the darkness of the third sanctuary to reach the room where Gerson's dust and hammer were||

[ripe harbor]

oh shoot actually I saw a secret earlier for chapter 4 idk if has been posted here
||Theres a hidden book in the egg room||

which feels

very relevant to ||how the dark might work? or its relationship to stars and dreams?||

[dense cargo]

||And the Shadow Crystals||

[ripe harbor]

||Maybe why it has all the water motifs, and gushes out in fountains?||

mhm

[inland hare]

there's a consistent water motif thorughout deltarune

and kinda undertale

like singing from the sea

[ripe harbor]

||'Fallen Star' got me 👀 given the look of the Titans, and the fact that traditionally Biblical Angels are equated to stars.||

[inland hare]

||We have to go north across the sea to find the mystery in chapter 3 sword route||

[dense cargo]

||And the waves in Raise Up your Bat||

[ripe harbor]

||its possible 'the angel' in this metaphor is something underneath the Town, and the reason Dark Fountains can be made at all, by piercing into its power. Or maybe the Grand Fountain itself?||

[inland hare]

there is this ||consistent thread of our world being kinda built on top of something else I thnk||

[ripe harbor]

||Shadow Crystals as pieces of a fallen star, broken? Literally shattered bits of wishes?||

[dense cargo]

||Which hints at ties or parallels between the water and the Dark, I think||

[inland hare]

therer's|| definitely something disturbing in the shelter||

but what's the connection

between ||water, darkness, and shelter||

[ripe harbor]

theres something in

[inland hare]

Also did ||Dess disappear in the forest... or in the shelter???||

[dense cargo]

||Gaster (j)||

[ripe harbor]

||the book of genesis, maybe? ||

[inland hare]

honeslty though I very much ||doubt that dess is lost in the shelter though||

[ripe harbor]

||'The world was formless void, and darkness covered the waters of the deep, with a wind swept over the face of the waters.'||

[inland hare]

||Since mayor holiday and asgore clearly has access to the shelter||

||and if she's in there they would be visiting far more often||

and it's not like ||anything in there is actually trapped in there||

[ripe harbor]

I always got the vibe that ||the darkness was 'foundational' more than an illusion||

[inland hare]

if the darkness is the foundation, then that means ||the light world is literally built on illusions, no?||

that the Light world ||is not real which, uh, I guess sorta makes sense||

[ripe harbor]

but I want to underline these are the ||opening lines of the myth, immediately followed by 'let there be Light'. Given all the christian religious motifs, it'd be a pretty quick pull.||

[inland hare]

||in a meta way||

[dense cargo]

||Does it even make sense to consider one more real than the other?||

||Thematically speaking at least, I don't feel Fox going in that direction||

[ripe harbor]

||the Abrahamic myth of the creation of the world involves light being the thing that turns 'formless' darkness into something more livable. Light cuts the shadows into shapes, and the seperates the heavens from the 'waters'||

[ripe harbor]

theres something to ||Carol's overcontrolling nature as being 'fake' or stifling, at least||

||Sealing the dark worlds away would make a world as 'fake' as the roaring, bound up in someone elses ideas of how things should be.||

||Considering that its the dark worlds that opportunities for characters like Susie, Noelle and Berdly to actually confront their issues and grow||

||idr if its explicit that she and Dess had a rocky relationship, but I'm basically not surprised at all her troublemaker daughter might've gotten literally lost in the 'metaphor for dreams and fantasy' realm.||

||What else would be more appealing?||

[lusty scarab]

Well the thing is ||that the Dark World represents stories, meaning, the arbitrary attributes of anthropomorphization ||
||And I think the message is that yes, without those the real world has no meaning||

[ripe harbor]

& I bring this up beause ||she has extreme control over the town itself too, not just her family, through her position as mayor and ties to the (former) chief of police and all that.||

[ripe harbor]

I dont think its a coincidence that ||the thing that gives them form (the fountains / titans) and the save points that fill you with 'certain power' end up looking the exact same||

[clear frost]

||GUARDIAN…||

[lusty scarab]

I also don't think it's conscience that Nostalgia and faith are big themes these chapters

As they're also just arbitrary stories we tell to feel better

[inland hare]

The giant ||titan face shields is a save point isn’t it||

[gilded canopy]

Imagine if ||we get another titan fight and toby makes it insanely long...

but you can save during it because the bounding box of the attacks reaches the face, letting you touch it and open the save menu.||

That would be a little silly and very cool.

[ripe harbor]

||they're dreams given form! They are literally also the fountains, and shape the dark worlds! Fantasy and the stories we tell are based on our ability to imagine things outside of whats directly visible!||

I've been wondering if ||the relationship between the Titans and the Titanspawn isn't just a magnified version of the relationship between Darkners and their Dark Fountain.||

||Its just the spawn have nowhere to go, nothing to form themselves around, just the pure spark of life as shapeless darkness||

one of their battle texts is this

||can't help but think of this in relation to the constant identity issues of the main cast, either.||

[lusty cypress]

I wonder ||what the mechanism of the prophecy is. Hope end of chapter 4 gives more hints||

[sharp lodge]

||it would explain why some of them look like fetuses||

[lusty cypress]

||Prophecies in fiction usually work by

• Some force that keeps things on track, influencing events
• It is a predition that takes into account how the knowledge of it affects outcomes.
• It affects people's minds, or is a placebo||

[dense cargo]

||Bit late, but the Lost Girl/Noelle leitmotif might also play during Black Knife, which would be another point for the Holiday-Knight camp||

[lusty cypress]

||Why did ralsei have susie go alone into that place||

[sharp lodge]

||probably so she can learn from gerson||

[lunar saffron]

||the prevailing theory is that he uses that time to check up on kris without us seeing it||

[inland hare]

I used to think that

||but then I saw him walk away from Kris as the screen started turning black||

So I think ||he’s using the time to do something behind our back||

[dense cargo]

||Him talking to Kris is still probably the case for at least some of the times though, right?||

[inland hare]

Yeah

But not ||just talking to Kris I guess||

[dense cargo]

||I think in most cases we do see the end of a conversation||

[inland hare]

||I think for chapter four he was probably using the opportunity to deface or destroy some prophecy screens||

[dense cargo]

||That is likely||

||When I was first playing through the game, I thought Kris and Ralsei's talks were because they were in on some kind of plan together. That might still be the case, but I'm also almost certain that Ralsei is not a participant of the conspiracy surrounding the Knight.||

||It's possible he's aware of it, considering all the knowledge available to him, but I doubt he'd ever be willingly involved, and all of his behaviour when around the Knight says as much imo.||

[inland hare]

Yeah

I don’t think ||he’s conspiring with Kris or the knight||

||but he does have an interest in averting the prophecy||

||that Kris and the knight seems to have an interest in fulfilling||

[dense cargo]

||Also I think these chapters buried any plausibility that the "Ralsei is secretly evil" theories could have had. They were always pretty silly, but now I think they've gotta be definitively dead||

[inland hare]

They are ||too fatalistic to be genuinely evil||

I do also think

If dragon blazers is based on the prophecy

[dense cargo]

||I think it's also pretty clear he's no master manipulator||

[inland hare]

(Involving lots of combat)

And ||Ralsei believed that prophecy could be averted by being nice to people||

Then the prophecy must’ve been very bloody indeed

[dense cargo]

||Technically it's only based on the prophecy indirectly, through Lord of the Hammer||

||And Gerson himself mentions that significant changes were made between the books and the games||

[inland hare]

Yeah

[dense cargo]

||Also, is there prophecy beyond what we see in Ch 4? Apart from the parts which we aren't allowed to look at, I mean||

[lusty cypress]

Thinking on it ||Maybe opening and closing fountains, and gathering darkners, serves a purpose for whoever is scheming in this game
Maybe they want to do a controlled roaring?||

||Huh. Kris can play on the piano without player input||

||Cute cup elevator||

||Gerson gets along really well with Susie
Wonder if she finally got he's dead when she read whatever is in the letter||

[velvet olive]

C3 ||We kinda read this as Kris going "Can't really hold my breath twice, I'm already doing it." But there is an element of, Kris is going behind our back on Significantly more than we initially thought.||

[lusty cypress]

Lol c4 ||knight: Didn't expect me to make multiple fountains this time, did ya?||

Wild theory ||Knight could be Carol with Kris' soul||

Ooooh
That theory I saw back in chapter 2 days was right ||Alvin exhumed his father's remains||

Susie: ||Kris you concealed carry all the time?||

||The first hero. The cage, with human soul and parts!||

[timber widget]

Susie rulez

[lusty cypress]

||I got it right! Sorta. Ralsei really just wanna avoid anything unpleasant on the adventure. That's why, when the spmaton thing happened, he went "okay, let's move on and not think about it"||

[restive comet]

Where was this?

||I don't remember Ch4's egg room having a library||

[lusty cypress]

c4 ||That's like the microwave corridor in mgs4||

||Susie: Ha! We cornered you. Once you lose that fountain, it's over!
Knight: watch me do it again||

||Shadow of the backside of your mind||

||Ralsei floats||

[inland hare]

Well he’s ||made of surf boards||

[lusty cypress]

||Man Titans are strong||

[inland hare]

Use ||a black shard, it really simplified the fight||

…

“Do the thing you can only get by doing something even harder”

[lusty cypress]

Oh I'm watching
Haven't gotten my hands on the new chapters yet

So I gotta make sure to watch, since the internet will spoil me

||Another door to something a large person can fit inside
Kris refuses to open||

||Silent hill 3 vibes on the walk back home||

Lol at ||kris having trouble sleeping due to sans and toriel. So Kris cages the soul every night, huh||

Okay. What the fuck
||They are just not gonna tell us the screwed up part of the prophecy?||

[restive comet]

||I think we're meant to find out for ourselves||

||Pretty sure Ralsei is meant to die though considering Susie saying "I won't let that happen to you"||

[sage needle]

||Would also reinforce the reasoning for why Ralsei thinks of himself and other Darkners as tools. Bro would have spent his entire life knowing when he dies||

[velvet olive]

||she just said something along the lines of "I won't let that happen, Kris won't let that happen, and you DEFINITELY won't let that happen" iwrc, not necessarily anything happening specifically to Ralsei||

||but, it certainly seems like something would happen to him||

[lusty cypress]

||Yeah. Ralsei doesn't have the skill or willingness||

[lusty cypress]

||Remember that theory I mentioned that the classroom in c1 was chosen due to belonging to gerson, and the knight may have wanted to have the fountain in c2 be made in the middle of the library, and use gerson's books there?||

[lusty cypress]

||Kris: This Soul is too cracked||

[lusty scarab]

Oh wait

||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMYF7ZmWRhM ||

full version

[clear frost]

||amazing how close those two things were to eachother when it comes to time||

[strange cloud]

Also I will say

I’m all in on theories that are almost certainly no longer true

||but people who still think Mike will be relevant are so clearly setting themselves up for disappointment lol||

[lusty scarab]

||Why wouldn't he?||

[strange cloud]

||because we find Mike after the Mike fight||

||he’s a png of a microphone||

[clear frost]

||my theory is that he's actually just your system's microphone||

[ripe harbor]

||It does, at least in the sense of like. Its one of the rooms you have to 'go between' to get to the egg-therapy session||

[restive comet]

Ah

[clear frost]

https://www.tumblr.com/joshthemaker913/782935887471427584/this-popped-up-in-my-head-in-a-literal-shower

[ripe harbor]

considering ||the Prophecy is known thing in both worlds, it could very well be they are trying to set up events so it happens in a way that would help them||

imo theres something ||to Ralsei's version of the prophecy mentioning the 'World' would be saved, while the church version says 'Worlds', plural, twice, during the line that was 100% going to be the most scrutinized - the last prophecy.||

||Taken at its word, it cant be that the prophecy requires all the Dark Worlds to disappear, because you can't describe just the Light World in the plural like that.||

||though you could imply they still exist (...somehow?) and just can't be accessed?||

[lethal ferry]

||my thought is that it might be that only one dark world can exist?||

||which could be the castle town (bc i think it was implied that it was the only dark world before the game happened? i might be making shit up)||

[lusty cypress]

||Yeah. Remember we were building a vessel, out of human parts
I think Kris took the place of the Cage for whatever this scheme to manipulate the prophecy is||

[timber widget]

||It was implied, for sure, but then again, who knows how long the shelter fountain has been there||

[wheat adder]

||Something that I just saw pointed out in a video; d.ogg is in Raise Up Your Bat, it's basically almost the entire song, if you speed it up and play both together.||

||Like, it's just Raise Up Your Bat's drums and bass slowed down.||

[glacial ibex]

||https://youtu.be/z7Mv5GlpT1k|| chapter 4 spoilers, mostly a joke

[ripe harbor]

so like (Chapter 3)
||The mantle fight is probably referencing a Seam bossfight later, right? With the laughing orange cat-thing that you fight in the (Dragon Blazers) Shelter?||

||Like the bit is probably going to be that by the time we actually get into the Shelter, We'll have collected enough shadow crystals and Seam will be the optional boss fight, and this is making a reference to it early?||

thats the vibe I took from it, but most of my friends didn't see it

[sharp lodge]

i was thinking about the infamous piles of asriel's dust theory and it got me thinking about electronics in the dark world
and it made me realize that kris's phone is kinda weird, right? while i can understand it not becoming a darkner, because kris's pencils don't, they become swords, but kris's phone doesn't seem to change at all
it also made me wonder what the logic is in universe for whether an item becomes a darkner or just transforms into something else but stays an object. it could just be as simple as an item becoming a darkner if it's around when the fountain is opened

[lusty scarab]

It could be their shield tbf

[sharp lodge]

the phone is still in their inventory though

[ripe harbor]

in chapter 4 ||the Winglade in the first sanctuary is an item|| and ||in Susie's onwards are darkners||

so I think theres a bit of arbitrary-ness involved

[sharp lodge]

||what's the winglade? i must have missed that||

[ripe harbor]

||Just a sword Kris can pick up, near one of the cup spots||

||but its described as basically just a feathery sword||

||In Susie's fountain, they're recruitable, same name||

||+8AT $+5% - A majestic sword with a white feathered hilt. Slightly increases money won.||

||a radical blade with feathers at the hilt||

idk if it means anything

but it stood out to me on first playthrough

||Item in one, alive in another||

||"The lighting of the mind has changed"||

[lusty cypress]

||So I mentioned the knight could be carol with Kris' original soul
It could also be just be Kris soul, creating a form with horns to imitate their family||

[strange cloud]

||The knight’s horns don’t look like the horns of the other dreemures though, they’re clearly antlers||

[dense cargo]

||Idk, they didn't look very cat-like to me, and their mannerisms didn't really feel like Seam's either||

||Seam being a secret boss eventually is still possible mind, but I don't think the Mantle boss is foreshadowing for that. Not that I know what they could actually be, though, apart from someone who seems to know Kris, and that they might be related to the Knight in some way.||

[ripe harbor]

||the orange mouth with fangs + the cat friend sprites was enough for me take them as a 'cat'||

||especially when Seam mentioned the shadow mantle as something they should have with them, that was taken. They're basically the only character connected to it.||

really they reminded me of a kirby enemy

[dense cargo]

||The fact that their sprite's horns distinctly don't look like the cat ears the FRIENDS have were why I thought they didn't look like a cat||

||Apparently the files just call them the Shadow Mantle, but they say that they are holding the Mantle in their dialogue||

[ripe harbor]

||I saw them as the mantle itself being moved by like a ghost||

||I mean they definitely are the mantle, in the fact that its a dark cloak with a mouth sometimes||

[dense cargo]

||Some people say that with their mouth open, they kind of look like Ramb with his overalls, but I don't see it||

[ripe harbor]

||They didn't speak with the same british accent Ramb did, did they?||

[dense cargo]

||And the Knight connection from their theme before the fight being named ERAM, so MARE, so Knight-mare||

[ripe harbor]

||I think they arent the same character but...||

[dense cargo]

||Which proves that Deltarune is secretly a sequel to Cucumber Quest||

[ripe harbor]

I mean....

the ||pursuit them re-used in the Knights fight is from Nightmare Knight lmao||

[lusty cypress]

You know what I wonder about the bunker? ||Ralsei appearing in all dark worlds implies Castle town might connect to other worlds, like with the door we used in chapter 1
So is there a pathway to it, is it blocked? Would ralsei have to be carried in the light world to enter the bunker?||

[inland hare]

Honestly I figured it’s some ||kind of knight related thing||

[vocal elbow]

||There is that locked door with the heart on it in the Castle. Could be connected.||

[inland hare]

Maybe that’s OUR room

[dense cargo]

||I always assumed that lead to the Fountain||

[inland hare]

Hey who opened the closet fountain anyways

[ripe harbor]

||Which is doubly suspicious given all the wings on it, now that we've seen the design of the Titans||

[dense cargo]

||Probably not the Knight||

Other than that, who knows

[ripe harbor]

its the one place

of dark worlds,

where the shadow crystals just dont show you the usual place

its 'deepest' dark in both prophecies

it might not be opened the same way as the others?

[timber widget]

||Which one's that again? Weird when you run into Burghley, or||

Ooooh

[dense cargo]

The fountain itself is special, so maybe

[ripe harbor]

yeah its clearly got some weird rules going on

[dense cargo]

Whatever "pure darkness" means

[ripe harbor]

and theres definitely something weird with the relationship between the fountains, the soul, and save points

[lusty cypress]

Another fountain thing ||Every dark world had "rulers", with a connection to the knight, except chapter 4. The spade king, who took down the other rulers. Queen. Ann Tenna.
I guess castle town technically has Ralsei, though he doesn't seem to have any contact with the knight||

[ripe harbor]

in universe library text mentions they still dont know the purpose or origin of the soul

so its not out of the question for it to be related to dark in some fundamental way? I mean, the intro does take place in the same sort of pattern as on the fountains ||or when the Knight shows up in chapter 3, at the border of the Dark World.||

[lusty cypress]

||The fact a save point covers the abyssal hole in the titan's face, in place where an eye would be
Very interesting||
The elements form pairs, with two known pairs being dark/star and holy/lightning
Guess star is the illusion/hope you create in the dark

[vocal elbow]

||Those rulers also had connections to Kris and Asriel. At least I think I remember there being a bit where it's said that those two would "borrow" the card and laptop that are King and Queen and play make believe with them.||

[dense cargo]

||Ramb says so, yeah||

[ripe harbor]

which is whats got me 🤔
||Because the soul is almost entirely associated with Light, yet the Titans also have quite a bit of light in their designs and direct reference to save points||

you 'wish' on stars, too

dreams in both sense are about seeing what 'isnt there'

maybe?

[lusty cypress]

yin yang type shit
You can stretch a bit for lightning holy, since storms make dark skies even during the day

[ripe harbor]

||yeah, so the seeming duality of its got me wondering if the power of the dark fountains and the power / origin of the soul (and Kris' soul or us being special) is the same thing||

||Maybe you level up on sealing fountains because you literally, idk, absorb it into the soul?||

[clear frost]

WRONG! their sword turns into their shield

[velvet olive]

C4 ||Maybe the Titans are formed from both Light and Dark? The BlackShard stops working as soon as the Titan wraps itself in its wings, so maybe those components are Light? Both Light and Dark are presented as destructive forces as well, in varying respects, so it might make sense for a being of pure destruction to utilize both?||

[ripe harbor]

I like that direction

[lusty cypress]

||Well, the opening and closing of fountains seems to be part of whatever scheme the knight is part of
It could be to power up the soul||

But also

||Might want something involving the relationship dark worlds have to causality||

[dense cargo]

||So does that square with Ralsei (and your Check) saying the Titans are the fear of the dark?||

[ripe harbor]

The ||Titanspawn themselves also seem to run towards Light and Noise, seeking it out, which fits with the general darkner attraction towards Lightners and Lightner attention||

[ripe harbor]

and this was really ||played with in 4, with the statues of 'ancestors', even before the second fountain was opened||

[lusty cypress]

||The bunker might have been created so long ago to exploit this||

[ripe harbor]

||The dark only becomes scary in contrast, maybe? Like how your night vision works, it seems darker if you spend time in light||

[lusty cypress]

||Plus, the prophecy is made of light on glass||

||Anyway, as ralsei says, the darkness in dark worlds is so "deep" you start seeing hearing and touching things, so maybe it's illusory light? Pseudolight, made of dreams?||

[inland hare]

Photon readings

Negative

[ripe harbor]

despite how they acted, ||I didnt really get any malice from the Titan||

[dense cargo]

||Yeah, maybe since the Titans are born from an excess of Darkness, they loop back around to being Light||

[timber widget]

||Darkbulbs in Queen's mansion shine a bright shadow||

[ripe harbor]

||It can't comprehend mercy, but it doesn't seem to enjoy any of what it was doing either - it was like a natural disaster||

||The Knight felt malicious at times||

[dense cargo]

||Ralsei says it has no consciousness||

||So yeah, more like a force of nature or natural disaster than an actively malicious being||

[ripe harbor]

and ||this really begs more of the question of what the Angel is||

I've heard most of the popular theories but I haven't really plugged chapters 3+4 into any of them yet

[inland hare]

They ||did shoot us with an energy beam the moment it saw us ||

[lusty cypress]

||We know the angel desires something, and the desire is fulfilled in the prophecy||

[ripe harbor]

||yeah but I dont think it enjoyed it or anything, or hates the party or whatever. Its just thats what it does||

[inland hare]

Oh I see

So it’s not ||purposefully malevolent||

[ripe harbor]

||no malice, pure reaction||

yeah, at least thats what I felt like

[inland hare]

So they are like dwarf fortress sponges

[lusty cypress]

Yeah if you try to spare

[ripe harbor]

doesn't mean ||you dont need to stop it, of course||

[lusty cypress]

You get a message

[inland hare]

Can we commune with an eldritch abomination

[lusty cypress]

||that you can't spare something that doesn't understand the concept of mercy||

[ripe harbor]

ralsei start doing the make contact gesture

[restive comet]

||I should draw that||

[sage needle]

https://bsky.app/profile/bumpadump2002.bsky.social/post/3ls2zdrxyxc2s

Bumpadump (COMMISSIONS OPEN) (@bumpadump2002.bsky.social)

i'm the original starwoker

Reposts

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Bluesky · Jun 20, 2025, 9:48 PM

[lusty cypress]

Oh?
Asgore loved a cowboy show that got cancelled
Woody secret boss in chapter 5!

||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HgFNoQZbJo||

[clear frost]

||the eternal internal companion||

[lusty cypress]

||Woody kills asgore and takes his soul, getting a friend in himself||

[restive comet]

https://art.ngfiles.com/images/3460000/3460937_mega-kot_he-travel.gif?f1694826295

[lusty cypress]

Feels like berdly got worse
||Now he's trying to make Noelle come with him on a date, and acting like people will fight over him
Back in chapter, it seemed he had no romantic interest in Noelle||

[inland hare]

He still ||doesn’t the way I see it||

[wheat adder]

Chapter 4 spoilers
||today I found out people seem to now really hate Sans after that ending…? Are people really this attached to Asgore? Like, Toriel probably divorced him for a good reason why are there people so caught up on hoping they remarry…?||

[lusty cypress]

||Honestly, really presumptous of asgore to think he can just patch things up with Toriel and keep bothering her about it||

[dense cargo]

||and the game is obviously making fun of him for it||

[lusty cypress]

||It seems to be implied asgore will be an antagonist in chapter 5. Either him or the flower||

[fluid path]

business idea: evil route where you force ralsei to wear shoes

[sharp lodge]

https://youtu.be/YYasAtS_ZAc?si=s4p3WNyqwmLJ8v9I

[velvet olive]

||pretty sure he still thinks he's leading Noelle on and is doing it out of obligation but also he does still suck||

[lusty cypress]

||Oh he thinks he's leading noelle on, that could make sense||

[restive comet]

||In Ch2, he believes Noelle, Susie and Kris have a crush on him and he feels like he needs to lead them on to make them happy, despite him annoying the shit out of everyone in reality||

||I feel like in Ch5, there's going to be a fake out where he finds out that Susie and Noelle are on a date together and then he turns out to be supportive when they expect him to be jealous||

[dense cargo]

||It seemed to me in ch2 that he has a genuine crush on Susie though||

[sinful crag]

its a pretty interesting situation as we get the pieces: ||something happened to dess that led to the marriage falling apart, something asgore is still fixated on as he is a Fixer as a person, and theres a really sad underline that he wants to be able to present as a normal family for Asriel again. i'm digging where its all going because it gives everyone a lot of fun nuance ||

[golden haven]

||Asgore being a sad divorcee is a direct translation of his vibe from UT aint it.||

[sour mesa]

||well his vibe from undertale also included "full of regret after declaring genocide war" and that part appears not to have made it over||

[lusty cypress]

||Fixer? Like in the Project Moon games?|| just joking

[sinful crag]

yeah, ||UT Asgore is a divorcee due to the impossible situation he was placed in as monsterkind's leader after losing their children, DR Asgore is like... he lost his cop job because of whatever happened and is apparently still looking into it, and the mayor is even funding him/encouraging it? So its a lot messier in a very small town way ||

[golden haven]

||DR is very "small town with a tragic mystery" indigamecore aint it||

[sinful crag]

yeah its neat

||cut off from the outside world! mysterious 'killer' running around! divorced parents! its got it all! ||

[golden haven]

||missing character who haunts the narrative!||

[lusty cypress]

Persona 4 AU

[sinful crag]

i may also just be a little biased about the narrative tho cuz i like Asgore as a character he's neat

really manages to ride the line of like, good guy bad partner without going down the checklist of abuse n such

[sour mesa]

love that guy

[sinful crag]

he's just kinda soggy

[fluid path]

sopping wet beast

[sage needle]

I also really like Asgore. I'm hoping that in Chapter 5 we get to see cool dark world Asgore (who is also still a hopeless loser divorced dad)

Also I wonder if he will keep his Homestuck spear thingy lol

[sharp lodge]

https://old.rxddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1lh4dvb/a_deltarune_what_if/?ref=share&ref_source=link

[floral falcon]

I came here over my random ass thought of combining ralsei and Genghis mk1 into a single creature

[golden haven]

Is it bc Ralsei smokes weed

[sage needle]

No it's because Ralsei committed a total biome kill on the dust creatures

[amber jolt]

TBK (Toriel Broom Klean)

[low surge]

|| okay im in the s rank room and i started the secret game and it clearly wants me to kill is this like the weird route fuck man I don’t wanna ||

[restive comet]

||No*||

[low surge]

Man what the fuuuuuuuck

[floral falcon]

Ralsei
Asriel
Israel

Idk why random revelation

[low surge]

|| how do I recruit more shadow guys? I’m about to start round 3 and realizing I have hardly gotten any. ||

|| are there more opportunities later? ||

[tidal fox]

Yes

Don't worry too much about it

[low surge]

🫡

[lusty cypress]

||Hm, the knight could be a puppet, but that wouldn't explain the holiday antlers||

[ripe harbor]

Man, one of my friends started chapter 1 blind, me + a few others have been doing funni voices for their playthrough

and after chapter 4, ||these Ralsei scenes are so funny||

||He's saying all this shit knowing The Curse Hangs Heavy||

||'Um I think we should be nice and not fight people 😊'
(internally: Alright well maybe this will prevent The Horror???)||

its so hard to not look to the other people who have beaten all the chapters and start laughing

also I ||think at least part of Kris' motivations might spring from not wanting to get 'discarded'? The message has only gotten more prominent each chapter generally, and a lot of the optional side content fits Kris into those roles - strong emotional reaction to Spamton Neo, Chapter 3's secret 'You Were Used Up', the 3+4 secrets like the forgotten egg room (or Kris having a grey crease, makes me think of the goners tbh, they 'can't wash off'), or the ball machine where they 'can't find their hand'||

||It also could add a bit of irony to chapter 3's end - Susie (the most anti-prophecy) is quick to challenge Ralsei (the guy who knows the prophecy) on accepting 'being thrown away', followed immediately by the Knight and implication Kris is working with them. It kind of raises the question: at what cost? Is it a possible motivation for Kris, beyond finding Dess? Working with the Knight to avoid a personally tragic fate? Or just a worry they have about what'll happen to them when its all over?||

even ||getting to the Chapter 3 Eggroom. "Where do you want to go - Nowhere? You're already headed there, aren't you, Kris?"||

||Ralsei as being nice to Kris, talking with them behind us ('so thats why-' convincing them that something has to go a certain way?), complimenting them directly after his breakdown about susie seeing the last prophecy - all of it because something bad happens to them? Idk.||

but its odd

||It makes Ralsei's appeals towards being fine with being used up for your purpose hit a little different, if something like that ends up happening not just to Darkners in general, but Kris||

tldr: this is Susie to me

[sharp lodge]

chapter 3 ||does anyone remember tenna's dialog about the knight? i can't remember if he spoke with them or not||

[sinful crag]

i know right before ||his boss fight he says the knight told him if he keeps the fun gang busy, he'll get all the tv viewers he wants||

[sharp lodge]

||interesting. the knight never spoke to the other chapter bosses, queen only saw them in passing and king heard about them from jevil||

[lusty cypress]

||From jevil?||

[sharp lodge]

||maybe tenna wouldn't have put himself in the party's way without the knight telling him to||

||i think that's from chapter 4||

[lusty cypress]

||Anyway, it's interesting how every dark world had a ruler who respects the Knight
Then the Sanctuaries had no ruler||

||Well, there's castle town too||

[sharp lodge]

||maybe gerson was meant to fill that role. i agree that it's weird that chapter 4 didn't have a main darkner antagonist||

My point is, chapter 3 and four spoilers ||we have no idea whst the knight actually wants. King and queen project their own feelings and goals onto the knight, idk about tenna rn, and gerson seemingly never meets the knight and ignores the crystal the knight may have left for him. The knight could have caused the roaring at any time but only did when we had their back to a wall. What if the knight's goal is something else? I'll admit i have no idea ehat that is rn but i think we should keep it in mind||

[lethal ferry]

||I have a feeling the roaring is going to be some sort of means to an end||

[lusty cypress]

||Yeah, the knight seems to want to have the fun gang enter the worlds and close the Fountains||

||I imagine they want to use the dark in a more controlled way than the chaotic and destructive roaring
Either by accumulating something with each dark world
Or by finding some way to control the roaring||

||I wonder. Maybe the sealed fountains can be made to leak a bit of darkness||

[sharp lodge]

https://www.tumblr.com/koimethehorizon/786559592671903744/deltarune-whats-the-deal-with-ramb?source=share
analysis/theorizing about ramb, so chapter 3 spoilers within

[sour mesa]

i think it's weird that this doesn't mention meeting Ramb ||partially turned to stone|| but otherwise this is decent

[ripe harbor]

is it clear the ||knight told him this|| or is he ||covering for Kris, who 'made a deal' with him according to the shadowcrystal minigame, and is working with the Knight?||

though ||he's clearly on call with somebody during those scenes you walk in on him||

[sour mesa]

In response to ||Susie asking for Toriel back||
||https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1380677348977807432/1384244047442477106/SPOILER_image.png?ex=6858f97a&is=6857a7fa&hm=4d3a883cf4008663187fc074312071cc87bf7e958bd920b3cdb3546834cd88df&||

[sinful crag]

||he just says The Knight before the boss fight||

[ripe harbor]

||yeah but he still covers for Kris in the fight||

||cause he's clearly aware they made the Fountain, not the Knight||

||he doesn't spoil their secret though||

[sinful crag]

yeah tenna loves them

[ripe harbor]

||so idk if he ever met the Knight directly, or just is following what Kris told them the Knight wanted||

but its possible he meets them literally while you are doing the mini-games

||he does say 'just now'||

[strange cloud]

I’m leaning towards that because ||in the sword route when you speak to video game Tenna he basically says that keeping them occupied was apart of a deal they made with Kris, not the knight||

||So Tenna knows Kris is an agent of the knight but he interacted with Kris and not the knight||

[ripe harbor]

||esp because I feel if the Knight arrived earlier than they do, they've would've taken Toriel then||

||The heroes have to be delayed to buy time for the Knight to actually show up, was my read||

[strange cloud]

Yah same

[vocal elbow]

||Which is probably why Kris opened the front door before making the fountain, so the Knight could get in.||

[lusty cypress]

||So whatever knight wanted to grab toriel for, wouldn't be too harmful||

[vocal elbow]

||And probably to also lure Undyne in.||

[lusty cypress]

That or

||Undyne was meant to interfere and be caught instead||

[ripe harbor]

oh shoot, is that why ||the edge of the Dark world is all cold and windy? Like thats what a dark world touching on 'the outside' looks like?||

||because thats where the Knight shows up||

[lusty cypress]

||As a subtle rebellion by kris||

[lusty cypress]

||I wonder if Ralsei also travels through the edges of dark worlds||

[ripe harbor]

||its why he needs the scarf so bad||

[lunar saffron]

||most of the sans hate i've seen is coming from us being put in kris's shoes||

||ie imagine you're a neglected child of divorce and your mom gets drunk and starts dancing with some annoying skeleton guy||

||i'd cry, to say the least||

[inland hare]

I don’t know about ||“neglected”||

[wheat adder]

||People have already started guessing that Toriel and Asgore were neglectful and didn't care for Kris, and that Toriel is an alcoholic. The jumps to conclusions are pretty impressive. Even seen people saying that the game "implies" Toriel and Sans have sex during that end of chapter cutscene.||

[inland hare]

Sucks to ||be Kris but honestly am happy for toriel ||

[dense cargo]

||I thought people were joking about that last part||

[wheat adder]

||I thought so too at first, but I think some people seriously think that after reading some discussions.||

[restive comet]

||Personally I'd say it's just really bad timing||

[inland hare]

God if divorced woman can be happy

[dense cargo]

Ha

[inland hare]

Some people brought up ||her not telling Kris about canceling choir practice but like, Kris hasn’t been interested in the choir for like… years???||

Why would ||she tell them about something they have no interest in||

She’d just ||assume they are busy at Noelle’s or hanging out with Susie, it’s a tiny ass town||

[restive comet]

||Like Kris and Susie risked life and limb, confronted The Knight despite knowing how dangerous they are and took down a fucking Titan to save her, only to find out that she skipped out on choir practice to then go on a drunk date with someone who's been a smartass to both of them even though I'm pretty sure he means well, I'd be shocked and pissed if I were them too||

[dense cargo]

||She has literally no way of knowing what Kris has been going through recently, it really is just bad timing||

[inland hare]

Yeah

[restive comet]

||Susie even said when they both got home "We've been looking for you this whole time" for her to then get dismiss the fact that they've been out past midnight||

[inland hare]

It seems like ||Susie returned to the residence after a few minutes to tell them off though which I also appreciate||

[restive comet]

||Yea||

[inland hare]

Because ||music cuts out immediately after we hear her voice again||

Oh hmmm

[wheat adder]

||As of chapter 1, it's very explicitly shown that Toriel probably just wants to allow Kris to have free time to hang out with their new friends as much as they want to, considering it's heavily implied they've been a friendless shut in for a while now. I think Toriel didn't call them because:
A) it's a tiny town that's known to be safe;
B) she wants to allow Kris to spend time with their friend uninterrupted.
I honestly think not a lot of people have re-played chapter 1 & 2 considering both chapters pretty much show Toriel seems like a pretty decent mom…?||

[sour mesa]

there's a fandom habit (not limited to utdr) of fixating on a couple lines' worse implications and letting that be the main lens for understanding the character

[sharp lodge]

||i do think we should at least consider the scene in chapter 2 where queen is drunk around kris. while i don't necessariliy beleive in the universal mother theory, it is interesting in hindsight when taken with the end of chapter 4||

true

[inland hare]

I suppose there is a ||point that the town isn’t really safe anymore considering someone slashed toriel’s tires||

looks at Kris

someone

[dense cargo]

||You know, it is pretty surprising that Toriel never brings that up in chapter 4 iirc, considering that as far as she's concerned the police never even showed up.||

[wheat adder]

||Probably doesn't want to worry the kids.||

[inland hare]

Hmm

Kris isn’t the only|| puppet out there but is probably one of the most antagonistic||

Well okay q84 is probably about as antagonistic

[ripe harbor]

||they shouldn't have ambigiously helped the people who maybe ambigiously yoinked my vessel, then >:(||

[inland hare]

Q84…

[ripe harbor]

I like how by chapter 4 ||theres almost a mutual sort of manipulation between you and kris going on. Its almost like the Soul is a bound spirit being used for its power but very intentionally kept under check||

[lusty cypress]

Imma be honest ||I wouldn't put kris at the far negative end. I feel like people are making it too extreme||

[inland hare]

Yeah

||kris actively invites us back in every time||

[lusty cypress]

||Kris literally puts the soul back in and keeps it around||

[inland hare]

Loss of autonomy and possible risking ||their friends and mindbreaking Noelle is a price they are willing to pay for whatever they are hoping to get out of us||

[lusty cypress]

||Feels like the fandom took initial assumptions and really ran with them
Things only go full tom and jerry between kris and the soul when the soul gets too close to unlocking the bunker||

[inland hare]

Do wonder what their game plan is

Is what ||they are doing worth it||

[lusty cypress]

||Homestly, think their worries about freedom maybe go beyond the soul
Maybe they were enticed by a promise of controlling the prophecy if they replaced the Cage.
The bunker is a place to protect from disasters. Maybe it's meant to hold off the side effects of a comtrolled roaring||

[dense cargo]

||They don't seem to be very well without it tbf||

[lusty cypress]

||Yeah, but it's still better than the bear going "make me die"||

[inland hare]

||have you noticed Kris is really really good at throwing things though||

[sharp lodge]

Who's that?

[inland hare]

Protagonist of hello charlotte 3

White haired girl on the image supplied

Kris reminds me a lot of her actually

Her personality is basically Flowey if Flowey was being controlled and wasn’t a ‘player’ himself

But aldo when she sees a fucked up laboratory underneath a room where one of her frenemies are being cloned as replacement you get an option to just walk away or have her smash up the lab

And if you choose to have her walk away she just glares at you before declaring “yeah, walking away was never an option”

[lusty cypress]

Hello charlotte has that cool civilization whose name I forgot. They had more than two eyes

[inland hare]

And smashes up everything anyways

Pythias

[sharp lodge]

https://youtu.be/Se1-Ny6bWeM?si=_HkFelYDsFrnOCPT

I should try that game it seems neat

[inland hare]

It’s the game that somehow made me think a lot about my own gender identity when I was in college

[velvet olive]

consider however: ||Kris stanced up to throw hands (hockey sticks) is funny||

[sour mesa]

Extremely yes

[crystal shale]

Chapter 4 Spoilers(?)

[velvet olive]

also yeah c4 ||there's a very interesting dynamic between the Soul and Kris developing, at least in our view of things/playthrough where||
||we care about Kris and feel kinda bad about what's going on but also are kinda thinking "you bitch" every now and again when they pull some new shit||
||and Kris seems to have some regard for us beyond just being a tool for them. We mean. They put us in a birdcage. Which obviously traps us, but wouldn't a better (and maybe easier to acquire) option be, like. Some kind of enclosed box? Instead, we're given limited room to move, and the ability to look out into the rest of the room. They aren't actively cruel to us either (outside of when we start doing some shit ourselves). They're pretty measured in their response, all things considered.||

[lusty cypress]

True

||Kris knows the situation sucks, but is still following along with whatever plan there is||

[velvet olive]

||Our goals are opposed in certain ways and aligned in others, and certain unnecessary details that allow space for care.||
||It's odd.||

[lusty cypress]

||Kris is rather hesitant at times.
They start hitting the knight harder as their allies fall
The sword route shows they are unsure about what they're doing||

[dense cargo]

||How does the Sword Route show that?||

[lusty cypress]

||Ramb himself wonders that
He claims to know what kris really wants, though the game disturbs kris
By the end, he wonders about what kris actually wants
And the dark mantle holder mocks kris over their goals||

[velvet olive]

||Kris forces themselves to look away when you stab Susie and Ralsei, and actively tries to keep you away from the Shelter at the end||

[dense cargo]

||Right, forgot about that discussion with Ramb||

[dense cargo]

||See, those things that happen in the Mantle game I don't see as relating to Kris' actual goals. It mostly parallels the Weird Route, which we already know is something we're imposing on them against their will.||

[lusty cypress]

||If you do the weird route, the mantle accuses kris of wanting it deep down, and relishing in the soul freeing them from the responsibility for doing it
Most likely false, but Kris likely is scared of enjoying cruelty done on behalf of the soul||

[dense cargo]

||I think that's just the Mantle boss being a jerk||

[lusty cypress]

||Kinda like asriel's own moral anxiety as a kid, but more serious||

[south flume]

https://www.tumblr.com/bundeadly/787023207428489216/being-deltarune-is-suffering?source=share

[gilded canopy]

…The reference took me a second to parse

For a second I was like "heck yeah more diverse outfits for kris"

Honestly you could describe both as (ch3&4) ||allies who occasionally take questionable or antagonistic actions because they know more about the situation than they let on and have a completely different primary objectives from the rest of the group||

[sour mesa]

And because they both have a gun, except for Kris

[strange cloud]

Learning now (chapter 3 spoilers) ||Black knife contains the find her motif backwards||

[sharp lodge]

some thoughts i had
chapter 3 spoilers ||if dess is the knight, who's in the language files? they hear us going through them as scraping noises so they're in there the whole time||
also, in the past toby tried to dissuade people from datamining undertale, but as of deltarune chapter 3 + 4, he seems to be encouraging it

[sage needle]

||I know a theory I've seen thrown around is that Dess's body and soul were split. The knight being the body and the voice in the code being her soul (Although I guess there's no reason to think it's not the other way around). I guess if this is what happened to Dess the same thing might have happened to Kris?||

[sour mesa]

||I do think she might not be conscious as the Knight, and it could end up being a doppelganger situation of some kind||

[sage needle]

||As I think about it I'm leaning more towards The Knight being the soul since it does that weird orb thing and doesn't really have a solid shape. It also doesn't talk. If the knight is Dess's soul then there would probably have to be an accomplice to move it and people they kidnap, like Undyne, around||

[dense cargo]

||Have we learned anything about how monster souls work in Deltarune so far?||

[clear frost]

||as far as we know only Kris has a soul in deltarune||

||"has"||

[fluid path]

||they're coexisting with a soul||

[ripe harbor]

yeah ||I dont think the Knight 'is' her, or at least not entirely her, even if its built from her||