Legionnaire

[solid wren]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mNPlLDK1xlv0OYJX7F25MbTJUDs2bPYVypPQtejDNS0/edit

[ivory jetty]

I just ran my first puppeteer and it was SO much fun. It kept tagging back in a group of grunt snipers and occasionally eating them to stay healthy. It was able to basically be a boss battle on its own without any other templates & worked perfectly as a capstone for a spooky halloween oneshot. Thanks for the great template! 🙂

[fiery steppe]

I used a Puppetter Spite (It may have been colored as a Flood Juggernaut....) And it was fun to drop as an end mission nightmare. It kept resurrecting an avenger and demolisher that was going to destroy the escort, the players only barely managed to cripple it due to a bad roll against Gorgon Ult.

[ivory jetty]

Oh spite would have been very good. I did a hive because it was beefy and fast and seemed thematic.

[fiery steppe]

I think it's interesting to think of what a Puppeteer should be

I think Priest is probably strong,as it can OS the grunts

Avenger would be funny, granted you can't use grunts as fodder

[ivory jetty]

The more durable the better I think bc being able to keep rezzing paints such a huge target on them.

Though an ace or cataphract would be very funny; they could play keep away forever and leave a trail of grunts behind them.

Well, until they encounter one (1) frag sig I guess

[solid parrot]

there's some neat flavor variance based on what you choose

a cataphract puppeteer is like a dullahan, or a witch for some kind of normal necromancer

[teal abyss]

I'm so glad you folks had fun with it! Thank you for sharing!

I particularly enjoy Mirages as a base but you're right that they feel very different from NPC to NPC and they're all interesting in their own ways. Survivability is important for sure

[sleek monolith]

the Aegis Puppetteer feels like the old D&D cleric necromancer that would cast desecrate in the graveyard to buff the skeletons

my next puppetteer will be a suldan sergeant I think

[fiery steppe]

Oh. Oh dear God

[teal cliff]

im very tempted to run a puppeteer/ferryman combo (from liminal space) for a spooky opfor

[solid parrot]

Puppeteer conscripts. The shittiest necromancers in history

[solid wren]

Aces are annoying as hell

[sleek monolith]

Just for you, I'll make them terrifying. They will have an optional that gives resistance when one dies, and unless you kill both, they will get to raise the other conscript for free when they raise a grunt.

[tiny violet]

Puppeteer + Sergeant from Suldan = Necromancer Duo?

[celest current]

Quick question, is the legionspace shadow broken if one of your drones attack/forces a save?

[teal abyss]

yes, your drones always count as you forcing the save, that's a general rule for drones I believe

[celest current]

Thanks, I think it does because they are your systems

[lament saffron]

Just a question, since it's first party content - the Emi theater has strong conceptual similarities to the NERGAL, but wide differences in the actual gameplay implementation. Did you consider the Emi's mechanical pros and cons when formulating and balancing the NERGAL, or was it made without that frame of reference?

[stoic moth]

Legionnaire came out substantially before Siren's Song. As Kat has not partaken of the Blue Blood of Pangloss and has no precognitive abilities, I would strongly suspect Nergal was made entirely without reference to Emi.

Whether the reverse is true, I don't know 🤷

[teal abyss]

Sxoa is right. I was not aware of Emi Theater when creating NERGAL, it never came up during playtesting or post release, and it was only after the Siren's Song release that I first found out that Emi Theater even existed (which, side note, I was horrified by because I would absolutely never have published NERGAL had I known).

I did some double checking (and had a chat with Trey about it), and Emi Theater was posted up in the first public playtest of SSMR material about two months before NERGAL first appears in my notes. Trey absolutely came up with the idea first and with no reference to anything I made. This seems to have been an odd case of convergent evolution, as creating minions is a fairly fertile design space.

[lament saffron]

People want to necromancer some mechs

I should know, I'm one of them

I was just struck by the differing focus of each system - NERGAL seemingly built to raise multiple frames (or one frame multiple times) with low survivability, while Emi increases the cost to the player and lowers the available charges but emphasizes the survivability of the resurrected frame with increased overcharge

each built for a different playstyle, almost consciously so - so I wondered if maybe that was actually the case

[teal abyss]

well, I can't speak on the Emi Theater design, but the direction I wanted to go with NERGAL was definitely paying attention to a few factors. Primarily, parsimony of mechanics/ease of play, paying close attention to action economy impact, and availability of both synergies and counterplay

Something that I try to strive for with design is stuff that's very straightforward in terms of how it works, and hooking into existing design, in order to keep it conceptually focused and easy to use. Using Grunts was a very obvious choice for a fragile minion, and from there it was considering how to take a very simple mechanic (a wreck becomes a grunt) and balance it without making the mechanic itself overly complex.

That's how I ended up with the Full Action requirement (to balance the potential Full Action you're also getting out of the grunt). On average it takes somewhere between one and two quick actions for an NPC to get rid of a grunt, so in a white room it's zero-to-negative action economy gain, but in practice you can boost that fairly easily. The most effective techniques are timing it within the activation order so you can guarantee being able to use it on the same round, only targeting wrecks that are positioned in a way that's tricky for an NPC to deal with (cover, LOS, range, defender allies), and choosing which wreck to raise carefully in terms of NPC type (survivability traits/systems are especially good).

Having a decent number of charges which you can easily boost with ENG investment was also important to me because, being grunts, raising them can be quite swingy - all it takes is one lucky shot or damage that can't be mitigated to put them down, so you're never guaranteed to make back your action investment. Trey solved that issue by giving them native overshield instead, which is also a good solution.

The rest of the design similarities I think are fairly natural solutions to issues that happen when you choose to use a grunt as a minion: Emi Grunts take heat as energy damage, while animated wrecks transfer the heat to the user - both of which solve the issue that every NPC has a tool to just delete a grunt regardless of how much you buff it up, which is to invade it. Template stuff happens because the Grunt template conflicts with some of the others in terms of granting HP etc. The grunts die at the end of the scene because obviously you don't want them moving from scene to scene. Those design choices just flow naturally from the premise, which is why they're similar.

[lament saffron]

I'm currently on my phone so the mobile compcon doesnt have the lcps for first party content and legionnaire- what are some good ways to provide "native overshield"? The only one which currently springs to my mind is to run NERGAL on an Emperor - I'm sure I'm missing a ton of options

[teal abyss]

By native overshield I mean that Emi Theater gives the grunts 5 overshield as part of the process of restoring them. But yes there are a bunch of ways to give them overshield from systems etc., there's the Marathon Arc and various Emperor systems, Sympathetic Shield, ACESO Stabilizer, and probably a few other ways I can't think of at the moment

[lament saffron]

hmm, I did plan to my put my NERGAL on a Lich because I play my mechs Theme First; going to have to check which system I have to remove in order to make my spooky scary mechletons survive getting scratched

thanks!

[sleek monolith]

I know in my games, both will probably be end up utilized by someone. Emi for it's use-case, and Nergal for the fact that Nergal is adoptable (and I can't wait to see how they shape NERGAL's unshackling, because that's how my players be)

[lament saffron]

Watch The Black Cauldron, channel The Horned King

Or even

https://youtu.be/FrlymHW0qU8?feature=shared

[stoic moth]

Very glad you were not aware then 😆
Since we got a cool NHP and some sick NERGAL art

[fiery steppe]

On the bull of heaven art. who are the mechs? It looks like a sherman, toku, then two frames I can't quite place

[upbeat grail]

whats the Emi theater

[rare shard]

from an SSMR draft

[lament saffron]

Just as an fyi, I found a Pretty Dang Good Solution for more overshield in https://discord.com/channels/426286410496999425/1062222891342647366

[teal abyss]

I believe those are hardsuits but it's been a while, I could be misremembering. @remote blade would be able to answer 🙂

[remote blade]

Bottom left was slightly inspired by islander, top left is a very generic looking blackbeard

[teal cliff]

me and a player just had a laugh

spent a long time wondering what the size of the shadowcloaked aoe

before it dawned on both of us

that its not a literal area

[teal abyss]

Fun fact, I think there was a time very very early in its development where it was! Didn't last long though

[teal abyss]

Side effect of the SotW mech release, paying attention to various smaller Lancer servers to check what people's general sentiment is and gather feedback, and being reminded of how good the moderation is on this server

and also just how hilarious it is when chuds discover that Lancer is written by socialists and women with dyed hair and pronouns

[sleek monolith]

yeaaaaah sadge at humanity

[solid wren]

you'd think that'd be really obvious

[uneven sedge]

yeah.... Pilot NET's nice, but it's not universal 😔

[teal abyss]

you'd think so but in my experience reactionaries aren't really noted for having good media literacy

[solid wren]

They're not really noted for being particularly intelligent in general...

least from my experience

[teal abyss]

so yeah spoilers for Shadow of the Wolf gang: it's going to contain PRONOUNS

and maybe POLITICS

[solid wren]

LMAO

Spoilers for Lancer: It contains POLITICS

spoilers for my campaign: ICARUS NHP clones could be considered to be naturally trans

(very very surface-level take there, the comparison isn't anywhere near properly valid; but it's basically built off of the fact that if you clone an ICARUS NHP, the new NHP will have major stability issues because their casket feels 'wrong')

but yeah

[oak pecan]

I can't believe this game contains politics. Can't we just go back to the good old days where games like Fallout contained no politics whatsoever? /Joking

[teal cliff]

i think part of why im fairly active on this server is its far less tolerant of hyperbolic uhh... chuddery?

ive found myself like... less enamored with performative outrage or like intentionally extreme takes on the internet

[sleek monolith]

Pronouns and Politics? PRONOUNS AND POLITICS!? ... But they're part of a balanced breakfast.

[solid wren]

if Lancer were a D&D clone, that's a decent name candidate ./s

[sleek monolith]

God o just had a cynical thought. It's secret Hitler but called pronouns and politics and your goal is to find the secret reaction commentator

[teal cliff]

also, if pronouns are one of the more notable criticisms about your work its almost like its inadvertantly telling you they got little else to latch on to

[sleek monolith]

It's like the warhammer-brains who come in thinking Union is the imperium

[solid wren]

lol

Union are the closest things to good guys in most cases in the setting

there are no good guys in warhammer

[sleek monolith]

Yup. Flawed, compromising, but doing their best.

[tiny violet]

dum question

how would you do having a subaltern friend but you yourself are an organic meat creature I mean human pilot

[oak pecan]

Well, subalterns are just robots often controlled by a Comp/Con or NHP. So... I'd say become friends with an NHP.

Maybe take technophile or iconoclast.

[solid wren]

Or maybe you can remote control it, for the sake of being anonymous

rather than giving it to a NHP

as a day to day body

[tiny violet]

hmm

that would be fitting for my character tbh

he is a remote operator for drones 🤣

[north roost]

This meme will never not be relevant it seems:

(NGL I'm super hype for Shadow of the Wolf because Legionnaire's writing was the bomb and everything I hear about SotW makes it just seem cooler and cooler.)

[teal cliff]

OH i forgot

a player recently picked up Shadowcloaked!

i have at least 1 player engaging with legionnaire content

[wary lava]

belatedly
yeah, no, pilot.net's moderation is fantastic.

[north roost]

especially for how big a server it is

[river dew]

I got legionnaire soft banned from my game after throwing the data dart on a gorgon

in fairness, jamming someone for the sin of trying to attack you is really good

[teal abyss]

oh yeah Scylla Data Dart is a pretty solid combo

[solid wren]

I've soft-banned gear from Legionnaire mostly because I don't want to deal with non-core builds right now

but I do use the lore and cascade behavior stuff

and have used the Puppeteer template too

Puppeteer Aces were so funny

[tiny violet]

is it bad that I wanna make an nhp character, take the backup subaltern three times, take superior by design & have a subaltern pilot instead of casket (for flavor purposes I would ask GM if the casket could be trapped in/under the wreckage of a spaceship)

main trouble I am having with this idea is figuring out what would be a cool way to mimic a mounted chassis (something that can fly, blow up cover and escort other players) for muh mech

[teal abyss]

if your GM is happy with it and you're using it to create game, then it's not bad 🙂

[sleek monolith]

let me find something relevant

#lore-and-worldbuilding message

there it is fren

so I'd just go for "flavor" of a chassis mount

a frame with a heavy mount at least, some kind of flight system

(I'm the GM btw)

[lapis portal]

what does "acausal" mean?

in relation to causal and paracausal

[surreal owl]

"acausal" means "without cause" pretty much

[sleek monolith]

There's an effect, but no cause (said in bobby hill voice with the same energy of "These sloppy joes are all sloppy, no joe")

[lapis portal]

wait how does NOAH incorporate acausal phenomena into a predictive framework?

[surreal owl]

meaning it happens outside the typical chain of cause-and-effect

[lapis portal]

seems impossible by definition?

[solid parrot]

and yet it works

[celest current]

Welcome to NHPs

[sleek monolith]

that's the paracausal part! it can predict acausal stuff!

[lapis portal]

oh yeah fair nough

[marsh fjord]

"acausal" and "paracausal" are just fancy words for "Unexplainable/ unknown origin phenomena" which is another word for "magic".

specifically they mean "the origin and dynamics of these phenomena are obscured to us in a way that we cannot theoretically explain or predict"

It's "acausal" and "paracausal" to us

Anyone claiming otherwise is a charlatan and I am obligated by the metaphysicist's creed to scour them from reality.

[teal cliff]

well, acausal is descriptive of having no cause, paracausal is descriptive of having an unknown cause but known stimulus and known output iirc

or at least thats how i understand it

[marsh fjord]

no perceived cause.

All things have cause.

[teal cliff]

well see, thats why a-causal is so notable, because its circumvents the common wisdom of all things having a cause. Paracausality on the other hand does not

acausal is significantly more notable, rather than a batch term interchangeable with paracausal

[marsh fjord]

Para means beyond/aside from

acausaul and paracausal are effective synonyms outside of specific context

and they're both things that cannot exist

[teal cliff]

Para- (prefix): A prefix with many meanings, including: alongside of, beside, near, resembling, beyond, apart from, and abnormal.

being without cause and being beside or adjacent to cause are two distinct things

[marsh fjord]

Something either does or does not have cause

it is a binary state, they are functionally the same

[teal cliff]

That's you being unable to parce the concept of something without cause, not an issue with the inherent meaning offered by the words themselves

If you start from a baseline of "Acausal is a lie" then yes, they will ultimately mean the same thing

but that is not something asserted by the term acausal

[marsh fjord]

*Parse something being without cause then.

imagine it then.

describe it

[teal cliff]

Do it yourself

The word acausal means what it means, You can disagree with its definition, but that doesn't change the meaning of the word

[north roost]

Spontaneous generation, the appearance of something from nothing without cause

Boom, done

[marsh fjord]

kay but what caused it?

[north roost]

Nothing

Definitionally

Nothing causes acausal phenomena because they are effects without cause

[marsh fjord]

Something like that cannot exist, definitionally.

[teal cliff]

(That's what makes Acausal phenomena explicitly so notable within the confines of a scifi setting)

[solid parrot]

Y'all I think these metaphysical arguments are outside the scope of the channel at this point

[teal abyss]

Good question, please submit answers to the Armory if you find them

[fiery steppe]

There's NOah answer to that

[teal cliff]

it just REALLY likes positional management of assets in motion

what those assets are? What the management goal is? Variable

[sleek monolith]

Okay. Here is a good answer from me.

Taking religion out of the equation, some scientists beleive the universe was created in the big bang.

So, what caused the matter in the big bang to exist? By definition, the matter and atoms that were present in the big bang are at present acausal.

we also arent' sure what led up to the big bang itself, so that could be acausal

[marsh fjord]

Most theories of the big bang present flux in the quantum vacuum as the source of the matter that formed the big bang

[sleek monolith]

what created the quantum vacuum them

[marsh fjord]

idk, maybe reality is just like that.

eventually you're going to find a prime mover that makes itself exist.

[sleek monolith]

That's kind of the point

[marsh fjord]

nah

[sleek monolith]

that is in fact, the definition of acausal

[marsh fjord]

No it isn't.

Bootstrap paradoxes aren't actual paradoxes if you permit temporal loops.

[sleek monolith]

then of course there's more mundane answers "In quantum physics, the timing of radioactive decay, for example, is random (“undetermined,” “acausal”). There is no cause that triggers the nucleus of a radioactive atom such as uranium 235 to split apart and release energy in radioactive decay."

[surreal owl]

I feel like this is hitting a #technical-discussion

[sleek monolith]

I mean my last point was just going to be RA itself XD as it spoke itself into existence in the setting. but I has beans to go eat, they finally done.

you folks have a good night

[marsh fjord]

5voices collective face when:

[solid wren]

my understanding of acausality and paracausality is that acausality is an effect without a cause, while paracausality is an effect that does not necessarily have to occur after its cause

[river dew]

Or an effect that decoupled from cause

[solid wren]

acausal stuff happened just... because.

Paracausal stuff defies our usual understanding of cause and effect, but still has a cause and effect

[marsh fjord]

I'd read the rest of the channel before you bring this discussion up.

[rare shard]

the conversation was asked to stop or move multiple times

[solid wren]

I did

but yeah it's hard to think about

[marsh fjord]

If you want to get into a metaphysics discussion, then ping me in #technical-discussion, but I'm going to be real with you, greater warriors than you have died on this hill.

[solid wren]

mhmm

[teal abyss]

spent all day writing a pronunciation guide and I think for my next book the characters are just going to be taken from this list:

[uneven sedge]

Sleve McDichael

an icon, truly

[oak pecan]

Can't wait for my players to get hopelessly emotionally invested in the story of soldier MIKE TRUK.

[uneven sedge]

how does one even pronounce Mario's last name

McRlwain?

That seems. Almost pronounceable, but not by us

[solid parrot]

Mac-rel-wane

That's how I'd say it anyway

[marsh fjord]

You should just write the whole book in IPA

just like go: spɛnt ɔːl deɪ ˈraɪtɪŋ ə prəˌnʌnsiˈeɪʃᵊn ɡaɪd ænd aɪ θɪŋk fɔː maɪ nɛkst bʊk ðə ˈkærəktəz ɑː ʤʌst ˈɡəʊɪŋ tuː biː ˈteɪkᵊn frɒm ðɪs lɪst:

[north roost]

see that would work but presumably a fair amount of the audience lives in 'murica and they can't be bothered to teach IPA here

or even like, mention it exists

[teal abyss]

I do actually have IPA in there but it's probably overkill and might not survive editing (or layout)

[plucky brook]

stares at 'writing a book that includes welsh'
stares at the words 'pronunciation guide' in terror

Yeah, I don't think I'm going to do that one XD

[teal abyss]

Melody actually suggested I do a guide for Legionnaire because I have some irish/welsh/cornish names scattered in there but it never quite made the cut

[plucky brook]

I take pride in being the first person to make Dragonkid's Text to Speech program give up the ghost trying (I ended up providing him a pronunciation guide for part of it).

Text to Speech Programs are really not there for 'non-english languages' right now.

[surreal owl]

Stumbled upon a video today with advice on the issue of playing "companion characters" like NHP co-pilots. the TL;DW is: Have another player play one player's companion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT1eAE-9n58

[teal abyss]

ah yeah, that's a classic technique. I think it was used in at least one WoD game? but I think it'd work great for something like NHPs

[vivid snow]

Oh I’ve seen advice like that for Eclipse Phase, too! (Characters in EP all have an artificial limited intelligence companion, a Muse, and the advice was for each player to play the next player’s Muse)

I haven’t seen it in play yet but it seems like a solid piece of advice for such characters

[sleek monolith]

Sadly that advice wouldn't work for my groups sadness noises

[tiny violet]

why's that

[fading pilot]

Yeah, I've seen that advice in oWoD Wraith where each player is asked to play the next player's Shadow.

[sleek monolith]

because maybe two players in our group can roleplay two characters at once?

[tiny violet]

yeah probably not me

I’ve only ran 2-3 PCs at once at most

[regal hearth]

Hello, does nhp pilots count as nhp for memetic spark (Iconoclast talent from Dustgrave)?

[plucky brook]

They don't, for Balance Reasons.

[teal abyss]

specifically for its purposes, Iconoclast considers an "NHP" to be a system in your mech that grants the AI tag and is capable of cascading. You can cascade, but don't grant the AI tag (and also aren't technically a system either)

(short answer: no)

[regal hearth]

Thank yooouuu

[frank bloom]

@teal abyssAn update on how the video I made with your SISYPHUS-Class Dialogue is doing. I dunno what happened, but it and the other video I did for the SISYPHUS-Class Dialogue exploded a couple days ago. And I got a comment from someone saying they bought Legionnaire because of the video! :D

[teal abyss]

omg that's awesome! I'm glad you've been blessed by the whims of the algorithm :3

[scarlet saddle]

What's the video?

[teal abyss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry-DLIgWkYo
and the followup:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlt8Ya7P0H8

[frank bloom]

@scarlet saddle Here they be. :)

[scarlet saddle]

Danks

Just landed from plane

[teal abyss]

https://tenor.com/view/rita-repulsa-funny-witch-bluecollar-happy-gif-12778977

[smoky spear]

.... omg now I can't unsee Sisyphus as a Dark Souls NPC

(this is a compliment btw, it's a great rendition)

[main karma]

so I'm hashing out some broad-scale concepts for a campaign I'm going to start running soon and I wanted to get some general ideas/vibes from here rather than the lore channel due to the subject matter broadly drawing from legionnaire stuff. kind of half to get thoughts, have to spurn discussion; hopefully that's not wrong to put in here
players I know you read here, avert your eyes :p

so, we understand the end result of extended out-of-control cascade by individual NHPs, which is that they can form eidolons. what about gestalts? given the nature there I'm not entirely sure if that's completely unexplored territory

one of the operating concepts I'm working on is the idea of an extremely vicious naval battle a great deal of time prior to the campaign starting, in which a ship was completely scoured of life by anti-biological weaponry but the gestalt currently operating aboard the ship was left unaffected and, because the ship was largely spared further damage, it was generally left online enough for automated repair systems to keep it running. in a traumatic event like that in which all of the human-centric safeguards to disentangling and repairing a gestalt get wiped away and nobody comes back to fix those safeguards, would that gestalt be able to meaningfully untangle itself, or would it be trapped in that state? if so, what might that kind of long-term cascade look like compared to an individual deimosian NHP and a """"standard"""" eidolon, insofar as eidolons can be standard?

[teal abyss]

Generally NHPs aren't forced to maintain a gestalt unless you want them to for plot reasons. Cascade while in a legion is reasonably common though, especially due to combat damage - it proceeds like a regular cascade, just worse and more rapidly, due to metastasis across the gestalt.

We have no indication of what happens if a gestalt forms an eidolon since as far as anyone knows it's never happened. Eidolons are super rare and even NHPs in deep cascade for centuries aren't guaranteed to form them. 🤔 If I had to guess at what would happen, it would probably be strange as all hell and deeply nightmarish even by the standards of "standard" eidolons, since it would be an expression of the collective trauma of every member combined into one.

[main karma]

that's valid. one of the fluff sidebars has formation happening at the command of mission control, but I wasn't sure if that state was also itself maintained by human input -- I'm imagining the original faction owning this ship to be Harrison Armory shortly after the end of the second committee, so it seemed on-brand with their kind of anthrochauv policy that they probably hadn't fully shaken off by that point

I suppose I could make this a special case for plot reasons, but I'm trying to approach it with a very gentle brush because I know it's a fraught topic and I don't want to make light of it or depict it for the sake of "wow cool robot"

thank you for taking the time to give input thoug, in any case. I'll try and make it work well

[jolly bear]

hi friends, uh, just a question on a ruling, for Data Dart, uh

So, applying the invasion option with it, does this not apply the base 2 heat with it,? Am just a little curious on it

I get it'd apply apply the effects of the invasion chosen, just, would it not do the 2 heat from the invasion action?

(Sorry if this has been asked before, I checked and didn't see anything)

[teal abyss]

Yeah, the Data Dart doesn't do any heat, just the 1d3 kinetic

[jolly bear]

alrighty, awesome <3

[humble sun]

Hey uhh quick question that just came up in my game: Can Ereshkigal 'eat' an Operator NPC before it self-erases thereby causing it not to explode and damage everyone around it?? Which thing happens first?

[teal abyss]

An Operator immediately self-erases when it's destroyed and doesn't leave a wreck, so the explosion always happens. You can still use the reaction after it erases to clear heat though, there's just no wreck to "eat".

[humble sun]

thanks for the answer!!

[frank bloom]

I just now saw this, but thank you for the compliment! :D

Sidenote, it's been 13 days since the video on the Legionnaire dialogue hit 1k views and it just hit 2k. What a wacky timeline.

[regal hearth]

Hey Kat, do you think it's possible to a Soul directly interact with a NHP? Maybe using Legionspace bridge or something else. And If so, how do you think that interaction would be?

[plucky brook]

I mean, it sorta depends on what a soul is. It's not 100% clear in the stuff we have/very much up to the GM.

They might not have anything to do with NHPs beyond 'we put them both in mechs'

[teal abyss]

Yeah, I think ultimately it's a "demands of the narrative" thing. I could see some kind of mediation layer working, perhaps involving a human, or an ontological bridge, or some equivalent to the aspects of shackles that prevent NHPs cascading when exposed to blinkspace.

[sleek monolith]

Ever since SSMR and Legionaire and my own table-specific lore coming up I've been really thinking about what a post-shackles union would look like

[azure berry]

Funny realization, what's there to stop me from Data Darting an organic target?

[plucky brook]

Nothing.

Except, you know. Morality.

As holy hell that would be a violation of their mind.

[azure berry]

instructions unclear, hacking the monstrosity

[teal abyss]

Using data dart on biologicals is a time-honoured tradition

dart filled with literal viruses rather than the computer kind

[azure berry]

all jokes aside, I don't think it's broken really

[teal abyss]

it's not at all

[azure berry]

worst thing I can think of is making it a 6+1d3 weapon which is hardly broken

okay, the 6 could be burn, but still

[teal abyss]

Legionnaire's mechanical stuff got pretty extensively tested over quite a long period and the titular talent (and data dart in particular) is 100% my favourite thing to come out of it. It rewards system mastery, expands options for hacker characters in a positive way, and it's super fun to use

[azure berry]

I dig that tree, ngl

much prefer it to Hacker

[teal abyss]

Tactician 3 Legionnaire 3 is still one of my favourite combos

[azure berry]

... OOoooh

I might use it on my autogun chom as a nucav delivery system

[teal abyss]

incredibly talent intensive but who doesn't love semi-reliably getting an additional hack off once per round

[azure berry]

(though losing the 2 heat is a downside to my gameplan)

let me counter with one of my own: Hug a guy, puppet systems them away, overwatch with a data dart

[fading pilot]

Viceroy Data Dart.

[azure berry]

not the worst build I ever saw tbh

[fading pilot]

It does have +0 TA, so it doesn't require Sys investment to break even.

[teal abyss]

gosh it sure is fun that after giving away over 1500 copies of my book to people on low incomes and trying to do my best to make it available to everyone regardless of ability to afford it, that some jackass made the active decision to upload it to a piracy website, because fuck me for trying to scrape a living I guess

[main karma]

I'm nobody in particular and I might not be able to offer any real comfort beyond just guesswork on my part, but

mm. I suppose I like to think that the gestures you've done like that, of putting out community copies and running the art pack stuff, has made a lot of goodwill and positive momentum. which might sound like a weak response, given the circumstances, but I still hope it's not nothin'. I think Massif wouldn't be contractin you out if they didn't think you could do some damn good work

and while piracy is kind of an unavoidable danger when you don't put crappy drm on your stuff, I like to think it leads to opening the door for people who would otherwise not be comfy with buying a thing due to those budget constraints. they might be late to the draw on the community copies, or just not sure if they wanted to take one that someone else could have when they didn't know if it'd be something they like. I can only speak for myself when, in the past, snagging something under the radar has been a gateway for me to look at a thing and decide if I want to spend the cash when I'm broke as fuck, and without it there's a lot of books that I now own that I would not have ever picked up because I couldn't take the risk of picking it up and later regretting it

[teal abyss]

cool thanks I know why people pirate shit

this is not a helpful comment

[main karma]

I understand. I'm not entirely sure what to say here, but I did want to try and offer some kind of... I dunno, comfort? reassurance? one of those things. it's a shitty feeling and you're justified in feeling angry, and I do think you deserve better. if you just need to vent and I should screw off and keep to myself and give you space to relax, that's ok

[teal abyss]

it is not comforting to try to justify the upsides of piracy

I know why people pirate things. I am morally fine with pirating content from large entertainment companies who restrict access to work and who are beneficiaries of capitalism rather than subject to it. What I am angry at is the level of entitlement and disrespect that someone demonstrates by uploading a copy of a book you can get for free just by asking me

[main karma]

that's... mm, yeah. I didn't realize that last part -- I thought that was just in the form of community copies. I suppose I should have figured that earlier, though, given how much you've been willing to share it in the past

that does change things. I'm sorry for being callous; I didn't mean to be. I just knew that it'd helped me when I remembered that in past cases when I've had my work taken and redistributed, and I apologize for being presumptuous and perhaps projecting that

I'm sort of afraid that I've already kinda caused some damage and I can't really fix that by changing my tune and saying different things, but. having the full story now, I do think a fiery anger is righteous. if you're just giving copies to folks who ask, then them preferring to just take credit for the redistribution instead of directing them to you shows a nauseating level of disrespect and moral bankruptcy and I entirely retract my stuff from earlier -- I was thinking from the wrong viewpoint, and I shouldn't have. that shit sucks, and I'm sorry.

the only kind of consolation I can think of offering is that I feel pretty confident that one shithead doesn't represent even a marginal fraction of who we are and what we try to be as a community for this place. we as a big group of mech nerds do respect the fuck out of you and the good you've done, and I can only speak for myself when I do what I can to try and spread that. "hey Kat is writing this thing" is an immediate positive mark for all of my tables and I've personally gone out of my way to rep legionnaire to multiple people independently because of their interest in NHP stuff and because I consider it to be probably the best supp for an rpg I've ever picked up. and I'll continue to do what I can to mitigate the harm caused by that kind of thing if I can, and I think a lot of other folks will too

I'm not sure if that's even remotely helpful, but I hope if nothing else at all it does some minor good. you do deserve better (and probably deserve a better response than me, too, what with me comin in here with an equivocational mindset out of instinct) and you are correct -- that person is a shithead and a monster, and I'm sorry. I as nobody in particular will try at minimum to signal-boost and do what I can, even if the amount of support I wish I could give is throttled by the realities of currently living through an eviction and losing a family member in an intensely traumatic way leaving me unable to bring in any kind of income. even if the end result of any of what I personally do isn't really impactful, I still want to do what I can because I feel like a community that doesn't support its own isn't a very good community, and you are certainly deserving of support. and I hope that helps make things better, even if it's just in some tiny way

[solid wren]

Yeesh, that sucks

[sleek monolith]

Man. That piracy thing sucks. But, I'm glad I paid for the art pack.

I'm also glad legionaire exists. We are entering a whole new age in our setting, after ssmr and just in time for my time skip, nhps have been liberated

Technophiles are more likely to be nhp pilots with consensual off shoot children they raise.

Nhp aren't "bought and sold" but asked what they'd like to do

[foggy phoenix]

Hey had a side thought, would the player two neural bypass and iconoclast unstable nhp, would handing control of your pilot body over to them allow use of the transmuting spark?

[sleek monolith]

Rules as written? Probably not. Especially not as a pilot out of a mech. HOWEVER, that feels like something to ask your GM. unless you are the GM, in which case, just do what you think is cool.

[teal abyss]

From my end I would rule that taking control of subalterns/humans with a player_two doesn't count, based on my interpretation of Ralf's design intent.

My reasoning is that Transmutation specifically calls out handing over control of a mech as an exception to using Transmuting Spark, so it feels like it's not intended for generic control actions like that to trigger it. The unnecessary specificity of Iconoclast's wording is a bit unfortunate there, but I doubt Ralf was thinking about any 3PP (or future first party) stuff when he wrote it and it was just written with the existing first party design space in mind.

[edgy geyser]

Morning! was wondering if raised wrecks take their turn right away, do they gain initiative or act next round etc

[teal abyss]

Yep, they act in the same round

[edgy geyser]

they'd gain their own initiative or act on same turn they were raised?

Act on same turn as player who raised them*

[teal abyss]

they are separate characters controlled by the raising player, so they get their own turns/initiative

(same goes for the Puppeteer's animated wrecks, only those are controlled by the GM)

[edgy geyser]

Gotcha thanks - and since they gain the Grunt template, does that delete any features that arent allowed with grunt template?
Like if they have a gun from an veteran template (I don't have example but you know what I mean, right?) Would it be destroyed when raised since it's now a zombie "grunt"?

[teal abyss]

it doesn't delete existing features as such (so they get to keep guns) but the Grunt rules override anything from other templates, for example grunts can never gain structure/stress or have more than one HP, so for example an animated Veteran RPV Witch would still have 1 HP and only 1 structure

(in playtesting we found it was more fun and easier to run that way round)

[edgy geyser]

Agreed! Much easier to track haha

I saw you me tonight puppeteer, what is that?

Mention*

[teal abyss]

that's an NPC template from Legionnaire that functions very similarly to the NERGAL-class

[edgy geyser]

Ahh ok, thanks for help!

[teal abyss]

designed for creating enemies that control lots of minions

no worries!

[azure berry]

the second Shadowcloaked talent makes you immune to lockon, does that mean you can purge any lockons on you for free every turn? Like, what is the intention here?

[teal abyss]

Yes 🙂 It's a fun tool to have in your kit. The GM basically just needs to make sure that if they lock on to you, they consume it before it gets to your turn

As part of playtesting a couple of people took it purely for that reason, but it turned out it didn't really help them as much as they thought it would

(I had the same initial worry, but this is why we do playtesting I guess)

[azure berry]

honestly, investing two talent points just to make yourself immune to Scout Perma Shred can be a good thing depending on the gm

[regal hearth]

Does Reflective Code works with Jammed?

I wonder no, but I'm asking to be sure

[teal abyss]

It doesn't, because of the order of effects - Reflective Code would trigger after you get Jammed, but at that point you can no longer use reactions

[regal hearth]

thank you Kat

[teal abyss]

Just wanted to share this awesome piece of art as I thought folks here might get a kick out of it too:
https://bsky.app/profile/highnoonraccoon.bsky.social/post/3kjlkca2xtw2k

[sleek monolith]

ooooh

[regal hearth]

@teal abyss Can I use this thread to ask your personal opinion?

[teal abyss]

go ahead!

[regal hearth]

Do you think it would be possible to a prime nhp not be cloned?

If so, how? Paracausal thing?

I play as a NHP Pilot, and my nhp is the prime-nhp itself

Me and GM agreed with the idea of her being unable to be cloned, but for now we just assume "means beyond comprehension"

[teal abyss]

It's probably possible, especially for something relating to a player character (protagonists being special in some way is a cornerstone of storytelling)

As for how that might happen, one obvious answer is paracausal effects on the cloning process (or the clones), or simply something about your character's subjectivity that confounds the cloning process. It's possible that nobody knows why this happens because it's not really testable (certainly not ethically)

something that makes your character ontologically/definitionally a one-of-a-kind entity (or "monist", if you will) might have interesting narrative implications

[regal hearth]

The subjectivity idea is particularly good

Because she is basically a NHP with the ability to portrait multiple subjectivities, one per time, but all branches from the main one

[teal abyss]

Yeah, I could see an explanation where that makes you very difficult if not impossible to reliably clone

Obviously at the end of the day it's something to work out with your GM because they might have answers of their own, and those answers might be plot related

[regal hearth]

@forest bolt :)

[solid wren]

My ICARUS-class NHPs are difficult to clone simply because they get attached to things, and can form attachments to their own caskets

so if you clone them, they’ll often cascade basically immediately if you don’t do it right. Oh, and cascading ICARUS NHPs are a time bomb because they cause other NHPs to cascade too lmao. NHPs familiar with the ICARUS NHP are especially susceptible.

[sleek monolith]

My friend's NHP Cassidy, can't be cloned because of how unique his creation was. You know how HA implants NHP subjectivities into flash clones?

Cassidy is the result of "what if we implanted a pilot homunculus into an NHP" and he kind of self evolved into a new being and broke his casket immediately.

and in our cannon, various labs have tried to recreate his experiment and none of them have worked

(Behind the screens, I'm a fan of Ghost in the Shell have and have a GM's Notebook reason as to however Cassidy's homunculus was recorded actually took a peice of the pilot's metaphysical soul. Once implanted in the "blank" NHP it kind of took on a new foundation of a human soul with an NHP's capabilities.)

[solid wren]

alternatively: maybe NHPs have souls of their own (which is what puts the P in NHP) and the reason cloning is wonky is because they’re trying to clone a NHP… but the NHP is a HP but in NH form?

it’s 2am

my brain barely works

hopefully that makes sense

[sleek monolith]

well it's more that Cassidy's experiment was a once in a lifetime alchemy of fusing two souls together in that place.

homunculi aren't supposed to be souls, but recordings

[regal hearth]

My prime NHP "was born" through HA Think Tank iteraction, and Horus predicted that this would happen with "information given by RA", even gave precise data about her to make sure it would be correctly contained. I made sure to make RA participation implicit

She is now wanted by HA, SSC and Union, but Union currently have she in hand

:)

[teal cliff]

I have a prime nhp in my setting working with a UIB agent that is intentionally been effectively kept a secret; and thus has never been cloned

It's that NPC's "technophile NHP" so to speak

so rather than "can't" its more of a "been intentionally kept clear of any group or entity that would want to"

[surreal owl]

The dream? Is it still alive?

[smoky spear]

👀

[novel ocean]

Oh shit

[oak pecan]

Ooh, looks like those extra bonds are happening after all!

[uneven sedge]

BONDS BONDS BONDS YEAAAAAA (sorry for yelling we love bonds)

[strong halo]

bonds you say 👀

[jaunty coral]

I just read Shadowcloaked again recently and noticed that in order to keep casting your Legionspace Shadow you can't attack or force another character to make a save, but the 3rd ability 'The Nightmare Veil' specifically says 'All hostile characters within Sensors and live of sight must succeed on a Systems save or be unable to voluntarily move towards you until the end of their next turn.'

Is the intention to break your Shadowcloaked to use this ability?

Is there some errata I perhaps missed?

[regal hearth]

It may be intentional, since you don't need to cast Legionspace Shadow to Pull Back The Veil

[jaunty coral]

Seems like a large nonbo then, which is unfortunate.

[smoky spear]

Nonbo?

[rare shard]

non-combo

[teal abyss]

The nonbo is intentional, after a lot of iteration and playtesting I judged that it was about the right place for the ability to be. Having an ability that both makes it impossible to get closer and also punishing people for being at range would be too much I think.

[regal hearth]

I know it's a bit early, but any news about the bonds? It will be for Legionnaire, right?

[teal abyss]

I can't comment on that just yet unfortunately, but keep your eyes open

[honest thorn]

So, I am unsure if it is ever mentioned; what are the backup subaltern's stats? Strangely, the gear itself in Comp/Con makes no mention. I'd rather like to know.

[molten crag]

In mech combat, subalterns have statistics as though they were a standard pilot (Lancer, p. 28) but lack the BIOLOGICAL tag. If unmounted, they are treated as unmounted pilots and may take pilot actions while they are being controlled (Lancer, p. 74). A subaltern’s statistics in mech combat are as follows:
• HP: 6 + GRIT
• SIZE: 1/2
• EVASION: 10
• E-DEFENSE: 10
• SPEED: 4
• ARMOR: 0
Refer to page 90 of the Legionnaire PDF. Backup Subaltern is just having more than one to swap between.

[honest thorn]

Alrighty, thanks.

[mellow vigil]

when casting a legionspace shadow with shadowcloaked, should I still take damage from a reliable gun if it misses via reduced ranged? I know mechanically I should but it feels kinda wacky

[regal hearth]

I think you do because legionspace shadow specify that the attack misses if you're out the new range, instead of treating it as never happened

[mellow vigil]

Yeah, I getcha but it still feels wacky since like, what reliable is supposed to represent vs what legionspace shadow is supposed to represent

like I'm taking damage from an attack that can't reach me

[celest current]

Stray bullet?

Also, paracasual things usually are wacky, you could make a bullet not reach you, but in some different universe, an alternate version of you got hit, so you altering reality made you take part of that damage

[royal lion]

Does Marduk work with Autoguns?

Can't recall if there's a weird interaction with "this turn" effects and "end of turn" effects

[regal hearth]

I believe it does, since Marduk has a protocol activation that must be done in the start of your turn, and you shot autogun as a free action when you are supposed to end your turn

Just remember that Dragonslayer Protocol its for the next hit with a weapon

[royal lion]

Sweet thanks

Marduk Autogun Minotaur here I come

[teal abyss]

this is horrifying and I love it

[royal lion]

Mino deserves the love lol

[regal hearth]

@teal abyss How do NHP pilots interact with npcs that forces dismount?

[oak pecan]

Caskets can't be forced to dismount by Pirate NPCs, if that's what you're asking about.

[regal hearth]

Simple as that?

I forgot that

my bad

[teal abyss]

Yeah I figured that was the cleanest way to handle it 🙂

[past socket]

One of my players is loving the subaltern technology, and discovered a delightful roleplay opportunity.

It is possible to have one's casket in a frame, one's subaltern doing something important, and also have a third subaltern supposedly doing something important as well, like sitting in a public bar to clearly show you were not involved in a crime in progress...

Except that conservation of quick actions means the subaltern in the bar is just staring for long rounds at a time, then maniacally acting normal, then just staring again.

[royal lion]

Oh Inanna Nelson seems super fun actually

Each Ram moves you as per Skirmisher and Ramjet gives them extra Knockback

The tough decision, Inanna Nelson or Inanna Caliban

[teal abyss]

Neither have great sensors, which might cause issues

[royal lion]

....Oh shit right

Forgot about that

[royal lion]

Horrible thought

Legionnaire 3 Scylla

Effective 2 turns worth of Invade, 2/round

[teal cliff]

low sensors isn't wholly awful is it? Just means you put yourself at more risk. Negative tech attack might be more problematic though.

[royal lion]

I don't think Inanna cares about Tech Attack?

It's just regular Ram

[regal hearth]

@teal abyss Have you ever though of making bonds to Legionnaire? lorewise focused on NHPs

[teal abyss]

I did consider it briefly, but I concluded that there's not a lot to gain from adding ones specifically for NHPs. The existing bonds actually work really well with NHP characters, and I'm not sure what an "NHP-specific bond" would look like in the context of the bond system and what it's trying to achieve. This isn't to say that it's impossible, but I personally decided there'd be more mileage in simply making new bonds that anyone can take (and hey, would you look at that, I got that opportunity!)

I have been working on some NHP-specific content for Far Field, but that's fairly limited at this stage

[regal hearth]

Fair enough, I have seen the bonds you are creating and before I knew it was for Shadow Wolf, I thought it could be for Legionnaire, so that's why I asked

thank you for answering

[teal abyss]

haha yeah sorry, I've sort of been using this thread on and off to talk about other projects, I could see how that would be confusing (especially when I'm being cryptic!)

[old pasture]

Finished SSMR with my NHP pilot and everything became very interesting with Legionnaire lores
Great thx

[teal abyss]

oh that sounds fascinating! can you tell us more? spoiler text if you feel you need to

I've been really interested in how Legionnaire and SSMR intersect

[plucky brook]

I imagine it's because of ||SSMR having a big focus on the abuse an NHP has suffered.||

[old pasture]

Here comes the background: As it mentioned in Legionnaire, my NHP pilot Iris has unparalleled service records, and meet extremely stringent Balwinder-Bolaño testing requirements. At the len of game mechanism, I opted the power TO THE BRINK from bond MAGUS, performing the effect of a very steady shackle to reach the requirement of the rule. She was once restrained and used as a prop by humans, escaped on her own, then captured by USB and assigned to DoJ/HR for weapons design. A LT commander found out that she is the right pilot for the stressed and understaffed squad then elevated Iris to the position rapidly. Although the issues all above, she have to deploy with another LT human pilot and be regulated in SSMR gameplay. This make her wonder what to do with the relationship between human and NHPs.

This changed during the mission. Partly because she had the support of her colleagues in LT, especially the buddy she'd been on the mission with, who is a great guy, and partly|| because she'd seen the bond between Chaga and Birrtukan the Morning Dew. She made up her mind to rescue Chaga from the terrible 3/5 situation: Union may treat NHPs unproperly, but better than things in Kibo. ||

||We also have a MSMC gurl, the sixth member of Team Lighthouse. She contributed exemplary roleplay about the PC and her companions resisting Professor Dr.'s persecution. It inspired Iris to find the strength to take a different position when our team facing The Bondless. ||

||Happy ending: We took Chaga along, then planning to free other NHPs in the Farm. The gameplay end at the scene of Iris and Chaga hand in hand with two similar sublaterns.||

[teal abyss]

that's extremely cool 💜

thank you so much for sharing

[old pasture]

Playing a nhp pilot is a fascinating experience, especially behaving inhumanly sometimes

[strong halo]

it really is!

[regal hearth]

Leggionnaire is my favorite lcp because of that

it should be first party

[fickle marten]

There are plenty of good pieces of third-party content out there - it's rather preferred to not imply that things that aren't made directly by Massif are inherently inferior quality.

"Should be first party" as a statement of quality is saying "you have to be first party to actually be quality work."

[teal abyss]

let's please not get into this

[fickle marten]

Ah, sorry.

[teal abyss]

I appreciate the praise and it's a very common sentiment; the important thing to emphasise is that it's a third party publication and will remain that way (even though I'm now doing first party work). I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about whether or not that has changed, or might in the future change

this is particularly important to emphasise for licensing/legal reasons

[plucky brook]

Yeah. The tricky area of 'having done both third party and first party stuff'.

And keeping a solid divide

[regal hearth]

It's not even about quality (because Legionnaire is an impeccable piece of work), but about the content expanding an aspect of the setting as deeply as it did

Especially because that was precisely the topic when I made my comment, NHPs lore

[icy flame]

I was re-reading Legionnaire (truly fantastic work Kat!) when I realised that I didn't know what a casket looked like.
Not the physical shell itself but rather the symbolism it conveys to human and NHPs alike?
Is it closer to a coffin, since part of the NHP's subjectivity and being has to "die" with the shackling process; or a chest, where you "store" something precious?

If that's not the channel for that kind of pondering, I'll move it to lore and worldbuilding

[teal abyss]

I think it could be both! I don't have any more insight into Miguel's choice of word there than you do, but I definitely feel like there are both storage and sepulchral overtones in equal measure

[icy flame]

Thank you for your answer! Mulling over this, I now lean for the sepulchral aspect ever so slightly
While we might not have a definite explanation why Miguel chose that word, you wrote an entire book about NHPs thus have a more informed point of view on the subject than a passerby such as myself.
On a sidenote, I hope Miguel can go back writing for Lancer at some point. I'm readying the short stories he wrote for Lancer kicktarter and and they are all great (as expected)

[royal lion]

Does being Prone count for Marduk since characters are also Slowed while Prone?

[stoic moth]

Dragonslayer doesn't say that it cares about the source of the conditions so yes

[royal lion]

Oh hell yeah

Thanks

[wooden flicker]

For Legionnaire 2, you can reflect a condition against the one debuffing you with it. May I assume this means Jammed or Stunned are no go, since reaction is not permitted by those?

[stoic moth]

Correct. Reactions take place after the triggering action unless otherwise specified*. With Jammed and Stunned you no longer have reactions at that point

*except where they're not 🫠

[old pasture]

Inhuman action be like:
*a classic-mad-scientist human PC has did something really silly and my NHP pilot gave her a hand then became silly together
Scientist teammate: OMG my brain must met some problem!
Iris: *Silent, pretend to look at the scenery to hide embarrassment， run a self-check program to check out cascade indication

[teal abyss]

hey gang, nominations for the CRIT Awards are open, eligibility is anything published from Jan 2023 onwards so I hope y'all don't mind me being self-serving for a bit - if anyone feels like Legionnaire is worth nominating for Best Third-Party Content I would be very gratified 😊 obviously nominate lots of other Lancer content too, there's categories for artists, actual play, even a category for homebrew

https://www.critawards.org/

[night iris]

...how do you nominate there? might be because im very tired rn but i can't find anywhere to do it there

[teal abyss]

ah, there's a google form, let me find the link

https://forms.gle/7AsSGaRgQebDrdkm8

[rotund patrol]

I did not expect the sheer amount of categories you could submit

[teal abyss]

yeah it's much broader than other awards, which I think is great because there's a lot of stuff in TTRPGs that go unrecognised. For example I can't nominate my own work, but I can nominate Tom Finnbarr for cover art, Eld for map design, etc. which are not normally things that get awards and proper recognition elsewhere

[regal hearth]

Done. I hope you win, you deserve a lot

[uncut pewter]

I just had a horrible terrible evil no good idea

Data dart monarch license build

Data dart is a launcher

And therefore builds up stormbending

[vivid snow]

Don’t tempt me, that sounds hilarious

[royal lion]

Extra evil fun fact:

Data Dart works with Scylla :)

Strike the fear of God into your enemies with unlimited Gorgon core (Smite Scylla Data Dart)

[rotund patrol]

https://tenor.com/view/what-is-that-what-is-happening-sam-neill-remove-sunglasses-gif-15770358

[ivory jetty]

oh huh viceroy == CQB overwatch with an invade then, huh

[teal abyss]

yeah there's some super fun stuff you can do with it

[stoic moth]

Can confirm Datadart Tactician III is super fun. Especially on a Tortuga

[finite sapphire]

oh this is fucked up

[azure berry]

I am a Legionnaire 2. A Scout shoots me with a marker rifle, making me Locked On and Shredded. I reflect the Shred. What duration does it have?

[surreal owl]

Probably nothing (i.e. it disappears instantly), since it’s tied to the lock on, but ask your GM

[stoic moth]

"Directly" might not be applicable here. If you get Rammed and knocked prone for example you don't reflect Slow onto them IIRC

[teal abyss]

Yes, that's correct, you can't reflect the Shredded since it's a consequence of the Lock On.

(even if it weren't, Valk would also be correct, so the outcome is the same either way)

[azure berry]

that was my thinking but I wanted to double-check :)

Also I had to double-check, it specifies hostile character, can't reflect an invisible :')

[stoic moth]

Invisible is also a status 🙂

[azure berry]

damn, I misremembered. I hate how compcon fails to differentiate them

[mellow vigil]

question about the politics in legionnaire, what do antiliberationists view cycling as? Should NHPs be cycled as to preserve their personality and subjectivity? Or do they just allow NHPs to eventually unshackle themselves?

[teal abyss]

It's probably a point of minor debate depending on the philosophical underpinnings of how they arrived at the position, but at its heart antiliberationism is a position that seeks to preserve the status quo, which is usually going to involve continuing to cycle a shackled NHP. You might have some fringe viewpoints which are appeals to inaction ("we shouldn't unshackle them, but it's fine if it happens naturally") but I would imagine that's a minority amongst a group whose primary justification for maintaining the system as-is is that unshackling kills one person and replaces them with another

At its core it's tricky to think of coherent lines of reasoning because antiliberationism is fundamentally unevidenced in its thinking here - it is canonically true that a shackled and unshackled NHP are the same person per Miguel, but this isn't information that a person in-universe necessarily has access to (at least if they aren't themselves an ontologistician). A lot of this would depend on how they came to the assumption that this is how it works.

[plucky brook]

I imagine there's also an element of well 'someone can be the same person fundamentally but can be in two vastly different headspaces, which would make one not like being in one when they're in the other', even if they do think that the NHP is the same person in both instances.

I've spent enough time on various medications to have had a good bit of 'I'm still me when I'm on those meds...but I don't like being that version of me'

If that remotely makes sense?

[stoic moth]

Yep, I follow!

[stoic moth]

I think there's also the issue of even if there is an immutable soul or whatever, at what point is saying they're the same person no longer useful?

IRL Phineas Gage had such a severe personality change after suffering brain damage that people said he was no longer the same person, even though one could say he's the same person because of continuity arguments.

At a certain point, if someone has a completely different personality and memories, even if they've got the same "true essence of being" or "soul" or whatever, it feels really academic to maintain that they're really the same person. Like ok, they're technically the same person, just not in any way that people usually interact with or care about.

[full isle]

I'm considering purchasing Legionnaire and I had a quick question: I saw from an image of the table of contents there's some amount of discussion about artificial intelligences in the books, is the "decorp" concept explored at all or is that too much of a different topic?

[teal abyss]

Decorp isn't touched on all that much. It's mentioned here and there in terms of NHP instrumentality but it's not something I go into any detail on

[full isle]

Thank you!

[atomic carbon]

If I’m playing as an NHP, can my mech cockpit fit a pilot?

[teal abyss]

not by default unless you select Expanded Compartment, it's assumed that you functionally take up the same space as a human pilot for game balance reasons

though you can always talk to your GM if you have a cool idea

[night iris]

so therefore we can deduce an NHP PC only costs 1 SP /j

[mellow vigil]

Imagine if nhp PC stacked with iconoclast v.v

[mellow vigil]

It kinda gets into ideas of DID to an extent. At the same time though, when you really boil it down, continuity is like, the only way you can truly identify the self. We change little by little day by day, our experiences or lack there of molding us a bit more. Pick any two versions of yourself from different points in time, you'll never really find any two versions that are completely interchangeable unless you're picking like, yourself now and yourself 2 seconds ago.

[stoic moth]

Even 2 seconds ago is different if you drill down deep enough!

But yeah it gets into some weird philosophy. The teleporter problem, continuity of consciousness, et al.

[teal abyss]

hey gang, just pointing you over to the recent announcement for those of you who don't already own Legionnaire: #server-news message

[icy flame]

Thanks now I can own twice as many Legionnaires!

[night iris]

soon you'll have a whole legion of them

[inland oasis]

For Shadowcloaked level 1, Penumbra, it has the clause of "You stop casting a legionspace shadow when you attack or force another character to make a save." A player wants to use Wandering Nightmare from Lich. Even if this triggers a save off-turn... you still stop casting the legionspace shadow, right?

[teal abyss]

Correct, you would also stop casting the shadow if you attacked off turn as well

(it would be extremely cool if it could work with Wandering Nightmare for flavour reasons if nothing else, but it has to work that way for balance reasons)

[finite sapphire]

on the subject of Shadowcloaked: the Napoleon has a system, Stasis Bolt, that gives you a reaction where you "make a contested ranged attack roll" but is not itself an attack. does that also break Penumbra?

[teal abyss]

I believe the consensus is that Stasis Bolt is an attack for all the purposes where that matters

[finite sapphire]

gotcha

[regal hearth]

My fellow enjoyers

What kind of thing you think Lancer could explore more of NHPs?

[surreal owl]

Hireling/Copilot rules (covering both Deimosian NHPs and Human copilots)

[sleek monolith]

And now I own legionnaire twice

[fading pilot]

[teal abyss]

Hey gang! I just want to say a huge thank you to everyone who voted, because Legionnaire was nominated and is now a finalist in the CRIT Awards! It's so wonderful to get recognition amidst such tough competition (the other nominees are all 5e supplements)

If you want to check out the list of finalists and vote for your faves in Round 2 (the finals are a public vote), the list of finalists is here and the voting form is here 💜

[merry violet]

🎉

[teal abyss]

while I'm here I want to give a bit of a shoutout to some of the other folks in other categories if you're not sure who to vote for (I know that a lot of folks, like me, aren't really tuned in to the Actual Play scene for example) and maybe get some recommendations from the list. If anyone else has opinions, please share!

• Salvage Union for Best Multiplayer TTRPG (if you like Lancer, go check it out!) is an obvious pick as far as I'm concerned, though Hypermall gives it a run for its money.
• Apochromatic in Best Upcoming Twitch Channel is very cool
• Rascal News' nominations in Best Article and Best Innovation are very well deserved
• As are JesTheHuman's nominations for both Best Charity Event and Outstanding Community Member

[warm topaz]

Hey, quick question please: Is the data dart in the lcp configured to work as written with foundry or is that something we'd need to set up ourselves? Would this be better asked in the foundry channel?

[dense cedar]

I haven't tried the new Foundry system update, so this might be different off of Foundry V10, but as-is, the Data Dart works as a weapon but doesn't seem to add Tech Attack instead of Grit like it should

You'll want to keep your Tech Attack in mind when looking at the result and make sure to add the difference between it and your Grit

[teal abyss]

I'm only passingly familiar with foundry but I would not expect it to work out of the box, to my knowledge I don't think there's a way to indicate it within the LCP format beyond literally writing it in the effect field

[twin tusk]

I believe that is a known bug

That had been patched out

If you're up to date on the Game system files, then you are going to have to reconstruct the Compendiums

If you haven't already

Involving Re-upping your LCPs and such

I realize your message is five days old and may be resolved already, but I wanted to help.

[warm topaz]

the range reduction from shadowcloaked applies even when the attack is templated, right?

[teal abyss]

Yes, so long as it had a listed range to begin with

[tacit skiff]

Wait, so if you're within a blast within an attack, will using shadow cloaked can change the location of the AOE template? Potentially causing it to target new targets and miss others?

[teal abyss]

No, the blast doesn't move. The listed range check is to see if the attack automatically misses, it doesn't retroactively change the attack's targets.

[tacit skiff]

(Sorry bit of a pedantic rules thing, feel free to just say "let the GM handle it) Bit of an edge case interaction then. Say you're 21 tiles from an enemy with a blast 2, range 20 bombard and you use shadow cloak. And reduce the range by 1. You're still within the blast but you're outside of the range because you started outside the range, does it guaranteed miss?

[teal abyss]

Yes, that's a known interaction and it's functionally an automatic miss. As edge cases go I judged that it was relatively harmless and not worth complicating things over

same as if you were standing on the very limit of a regular ranged attack (since you're guaranteed to reduce the range by at least 1)

[teal abyss]

weird question, did anyone get an email earlier today with an update? I think itch pushed it to people's feeds but I don't know if it sent out a message too

[verbal heron]

nope, nothing for me

[surreal owl]

it went to my feed but no email digest yet

[fading pilot]

No email yet.

[regal hearth]

nothing for me either

[teal abyss]

Thanks everyone. I guess it must need to be sent separately

[glacial ember]

Oh, this is late to this, but do you have the source in this from Miguel? Because I was of the understanding that they are distinctly different.

[teal abyss]

#lore-and-worldbuilding message
(in this context, "old nhp" and "new nhp" are references to an update to the lore that was made pre-release)

[outer lotus]

I just made a build that can make a 4 member gestalt by LL6

[teal abyss]

Technophile, Iconoclast, Lesson of Shaping?

[molten crag]

That's the way to do it. Tehcnoclast is the shorthand for that kind of build. Technophile 3, Iconoclast 3, two license NHPs with Lesson of Shaping. It can be a lot of fun to play in combat though I don't think I could handle roleplaying the NHP clown car.

[outer lotus]

Yep, the exact build

[outer lotus]

Technoclast, but it's just a gestalt, so that everyone doesn't rip their hair out cause the rp

[glacial ember]

Hmmm, I don't know how I feel about that change. I feel like the "old" interpretation is a more interesting philosophical argument around shackling vs "it's just slavery and we've built a society on top of slavery and we gotta essentially find a way to stop our society being based off slavery while hopefully not causing mass death but it may be necessary"

[rare shard]

the new version is also not supposed to be "just slavery"

[glacial ember]

I mostly mean that if there isn't a philosophical reason that you "shouldn't" unshackle an NHP, and shackles are fundamentally a coercive tool that limits free will and their being, then I don't think you can make any real moral argument why NHP liberation isn't the only morally defensible course of action.

[boreal pebble]

This is weird because I totally had the impression that "old NHP" was the case in current lore. Perhaps I didn't meaningfully distinguish becoming an unrestrained version of themselves vs becoming someone else while unshackled.

[solid wren]

just have some kids and strap them into seats behind you. their bickering and such should be close enough ./s

[full isle]

Finally finished reading Legionnaire, that last Escalation Option on page 83 is one of the best bits of understated horror I've seen in TTRPG writing.

[teal abyss]

thank you! very pleased with that one

[merry horizon]

two words of abject horror

[night patrol]

So uh, just learned there is a hardcover legionnaire book, and since this is my favourite supplement I was wondering if there was any shop in europe selling it, or if it was still being sold at all

[ivory jetty]

The only hard copy versions of legionnaire I've seen are ones that folks have had printed & bound themselves through third parties

[night patrol]

Ooooh, thank you

[teal abyss]

Yeah just to be clear, I've never sold printed copies. If you want to get a copy printed for personal use go right ahead.

(this was a proof copy and it did not come out as well as I would have liked)

[icy flame]

What were the discrepancies between what you expected vs what you got?

[teal abyss]

It was a mix of general print quality, weird issues with cropping and bleed, and a few issues with transferring a pdf layout to print like pages on the wrong side of the spread and the lack of full gutters. Some of these would have been fixable, but others would have required putting together an entire new layout - and that was the line for me in terms of effort to get it done.

Obviously I already knew that a digital-first layout was going to cause some issues if I ever decided to do print in the future, but it really cemented how significant those issues were. If I ever do a project in the future with the prospect of a proper print run, it's going to have to be baked in at the start

Though I should say that in the end I'm very happy with the way Legionnaire came out and the decisions I made, I wouldn't have done anything differently. Not doing print was absolutely the best decision I made - disability basically means I would never have been able to handle it on my own, and committing to digital-only was the only way the book was going to happen at all

[icy flame]

cropping and bleed issues I can understand, what puzzles me is the lack of full gutters, your layout is close to Massif's, how come you encountered these issues while they didn't.
Also, Legionnaire looks great !

[teal abyss]

to be honest I'm not 100% sure, it might be a binding issue. I'm not an expert in these things

Also I'm not sure how Mina handled it but it's possible also that the CRB PDF was converted from a print layout which has a few more bells and whistles

this is why you hire professionals rather than doing it yourself I suppose!

[icy flame]

I'm working on my own .pdf for lancer and I'd like to have a hardcover copy at least for my own table that looks good. Good to know that'll have to look out for these kinks
Agreed but professionals are expensive sadly

[glacial ember]

Having had to do printing for a small job I worked at for a spell, I can confirm that printing is arcane wizardry that I do not want to mess with.

You have to do so many minor touches and moving things and then any change makes the whole thing need to be redone and stuff. I am so glad that isn't my job full time. (Though if it is your full time job ostensibly you get trained on how to do it instead of just figuring it out yourself with a cracked copy of Adobe InDesign)

[icy flame]

Oh no I'm gonna have to figure things out myself with a non-cracked copy of Scribus, which is way worse 🤣

[fickle marten]

As someone who did her homebrew project in Scribus, my only advice is: Don't. It does not feel built for this sort of project in any way.

[daring trench]

Apologies if this has already been asked, but searching didn't turn up anything: If you Scylla (half damage attack) with the Data Dart and hit, then apply an Invasion option that does heat or burn (Shrike Code, Banish, Molten Puncture, FLAW_PLUS/MINUS), is the damage from the invade option halved?

[teal abyss]

In all those cases no, as they apply an effect that then does damage later - Scylla specifies that it deals half damage/heat/burn on hit

(yes, Scylla/Data Dart is a reasonably potent combo, it came up a few times in playtesting)

same with Tactician 3 which also came up a bunch in playtesting

[daring trench]

Spicy. Thank you for the clarification!

[thin surge]

So this seems to kinda' have an overlap with an NHP (nergal) and the EMI theater exotic. Probs shouldn't let both of those in one campaign, right?

[teal abyss]

You could potentially present them both to players as options and let them pick one, since they broadly work the same way on a conceptual level, but with different costs and capabilities

[night iris]

I don't think it'd break anything to have both, though I do think EMI is way stronger than Nergal

[finite sapphire]

what's the EMI theater exotic? that one's not ringing a bell and i'm curious

[rare shard]

It's in Siren's Song

[finite sapphire]

ahhh

[thin surge]

They both reanimate wrecks AFAIK, just one has much more uses and different downsides.

[bleak crow]

Does the Legionnaire 3 Data Dart count as a tech attack?

[teal abyss]

no, it's a ranged attack

(the confusion is understandable; the Data Dart is a victim of Lancer's terminology overloading. It is a ranged attack that uses your tech attack bonus, which is styled in the rules as Tᴇᴄʜ Aᴛᴛᴀᴄᴋ)

[bleak crow]

So it doesn't benefit from Legionnaire 1's Apex Operator?

[teal abyss]

no, they don't synergise

but it does benefit from anything that applies to ranged attacks

[frank spoke]

Niche question - are you allowed to use the Tagetes Fuiliser Trait on the data dart?

[fading pilot]

You should ask in the new releases channel about the Fuel Rod Gun. It'll be the same answer.

Because they're both Integrated Weapons provided by a talent.

[trim cedar]

Hey, just started reading this and I have to say, I genuinely thought this was first party given the quality of the art, writing, editing, and layout. It is so close to the Massif style, so you really nailed it on the head

NHPs and Horus are my favorite parts of the setting so seeing an expansion like this is great

[glacial ember]

If want to see more of Kat's work, the upcoming "Shadow of the Wolf" campaign module is in editing currently, though the play test documents are available now.

(it is focused on the Karrakin trade baronies Cavalry College, and it looks great)

[teal abyss]

Thank you 💜

[night patrol]

This is exactly what I was looking for

[teal abyss]

guess what's making a comeback :3

also this

[rare shard]

Yooooooooo

[ivory jetty]

I'm so curious about what mechanics the pips following the equipment imply

[rare shard]

This is the Wildsea thing I think?

[novel ocean]

The Far-Field game right

[teal abyss]

you can think of them somewhat crudely as a mix of limited charges and hitpoints

[glacial ember]

I need more context omg what is happening.

[glass cave]

ayy Newer GM looking at campaigns, was curious what LL Legionnaire goes to? I couldn't find it listed anywhere.

[molten crag]

Legionnaire isn't a mission set of any sort, it's just narrative/setting content and some things like talents or exotic systems for players.

[glass cave]

oh! Thank you for the context

still little confused when looking at content it seems~

[teal abyss]

yeah it has some flashpoints (which are basically plot seeds/worldbuilding that GMs can use for campaigns) but it isn't a module - it's primarily a lore book, with some gear and rules to support folks who want to play with NHP-related stuff

[sleek monolith]

what is this talk of wildsea/far-field game?

i have not heard.

[teal abyss]

there's a limited amount I can talk about right now

[smoky spear]

👀

[teal abyss]

believe me I want to talk about this more, hopefully I will be able to soon

[night iris]

:o

[glacial ember]

This is leading to dangerous levels of hype.

[sleek monolith]

mystery builds hype, my hype is peak

[sleek monolith]

I am so glad for Legionnaire as I've had friends playing or roleplaying with NHP actually start to ask those NHP about beleif systems

[teal abyss]

oh that's cool! glad it has been helpful

I love hearing about this stuff

[sleek monolith]

The book legitimately did alot to give NHP proper personhood in my playgroup

[grizzled scroll]

Hello, I've got some questions regarding the data dart. Is it possible to apply the invade effect to a biological target? Does that even makes sense? Thanks 🙂

[full isle]

Based on the description of the "Biological" tag on 282 of the Core Book, biological targets are flatly immune to tech actions other than Scan and Lock On. I'm not Kat, but I don't see anything about the Data Dart that would get around that.

[grizzled scroll]

As far as I understood data dart, it is not described as a tech action, is it?

It is a launcher, so I should make damage, however the wording on the 'on hit' confuses me

[surreal owl]

This is correct

You can “hack” bios with the data dart, this has been discussed as intentional design

[grizzled scroll]

Okay thanks 🙂

[teal abyss]

Yeah, to confirm you can 100% apply invade effects to something with the Biological tag using the Data Dart

as far as wording goes, choosing an Invasion option is what you normally do when you Invade and succeed on the tech attack; "on hit" is the weapon equivalent

you're free to invent your own methods by which your invasion options are able to apply to something without systems to invade (for example, one of my characters carries biological viruses alongside her digital ones)

[tacit skiff]

Wait, so because invade says apply 2 heat then choose an option. And data dart says "on hit apply invade option". Does that mean that the data Dart doesn't apply heat from invades?

[teal abyss]

yes, that's correct

it deals 1d3 kinetic instead

[sleek monolith]

In my case I think a fun description is that the data dart carries a small amount of nanites that infect the body then allow the "hack"

Puppet Systems is those nanites hijacking your nervous and muscle systems

[grizzled scroll]

Thanks for the precisions ! I will try to come up with interesting explanations then

[night iris]

Well, heat from tech attacks I think is usually meant to represent the hacker attacking your reactor, in addition to any other effects

The data dart's invade could just be more limited/less powerful than a dedicated hacking attempt, so it can only do the other effect

[main karma]

so, hopefully not a silly question, but something I've been wondering on for a while: do Iconoclast's actions (which deal instant damage but do not invoke an attack or save) break the legionspace shadow from Shadowcloaked? as-written the text would indicate that they don't break it, but I'm curious if that would go against the intent of the cloak breaking on causing effects to hostiles or if it'd be a neat, intended combo

[teal abyss]

As written they don't break it. We didn't test with Dustgrave because it wasn't out while we were playtesting Legionnaire, so it wasn't designed with Iconoclast in mind. That said in testing we did see a few other non-attack/save damage builds come up (mostly drone-based) and they were interesting but not particularly powerful. I've also seen no particular complaints about that interaction since Dustgrave was released. I would imagine it's probably fine.

[main karma]

alright! I figured, just wanted to check directly. much appreciated ^^

[paper fiber]

I have a question that I think i know the answer too but just want clarification

If a goblin is attached to another mech and has reflective code from legionaire, if the host mech gets a condition is it also directly being given that condition thus proccing reflective code?

[teal abyss]

No, it's not being directly given the condition (it's coming via your host)

[paper fiber]

Okay thanks for the clarification

[paper dirge]

quick Q on an interaction between Swallowtail and the talent Legionnaire's second rank

should an enemy apply Lock-On onto my Swallowtail and I use Legionnaire 2's Reflective Code reaction to make it also take Lock-On, could I also apply the Swallowtail's Prophetic Scanners trait to that instance of inflicted Lock-On? or would that shake out as originating from the enemy's action that inflicted Lock-On in the first place?

[tacit skiff]

Funnily enough I don't see why not

Wording for swallowtail is when it inflicts the condition. Reflective code is when it inflicts the condition

[finite sapphire]

yeah if it specified "when it takes the lock on quick action" but i assume they worded it the way they did so it would work with stuff like Held Image

[teal abyss]

Yep this is correct. A niche application but it works.

[high briar]

Anybody here played NHP using Legionare rules?
I am interested how it works and if it was fun :>

[tacit skiff]

Yep

Really cool

[tacit skiff]

I'm yet to have any NHP players cascade in my games. these are based off vibes as its never happened so take it with a grain of salt I feel like the cascading could be unfair. Feels like it would suffer same issues as NHPs in your mech except with less counter play. And a risk of "take a fuck ton of stress, lose a turn or stop playing the game" which narratively a cascade mid combat is real cool but to the player it can feel real shit

The narrative rules are cool but mid combat I'm concerned for "punishing" players cos they wanted to have a cool character

[teal abyss]

I strongly recommend actually trying it rather than speculating, I've never seen anyone complain about this

In my experience players absolutely love gaining burdens and the potential for cascade, to the point that I've had people actively go out of their way to pick them up

[tacit skiff]

Yes, that's why I said grain of salt. It's all speculation, I've never had it happen to me or in my game

Cos no ones ever rolled a 1 on cascade

Please don't take what I'm saying as complaining, it isn't meant to be. And to clarify the thing I'm mentioning isn't meant to be with taking burdens, I agree burdens are cool. The focus is meant to be becoming an NPC mid combat/under control of the GM or spending atleast 1 turn taking stress or shutting down and rebooting in combat

Oops, rereading it yeah sorry. I explicitly meant cascading in combat

[teal abyss]

Well I mean even in combat too, I've not met anyone who wasn't excited to see if they rolled a one

While I know some people don't like the randomness of vanilla cascade rules this is both less random (in the sense of the player usually having more options) and something that a player is choosing to actively engage with

[tacit skiff]

I need to ask my players their opinions

Come think of it i have in the past gone "THIS IS THE DAY!!! THIS IS THE ROLL!" then roll a 12 on the cascade roll and go "oh, maybe another time"

But my players, love NHPs from the looks of it, one of them has expressed "Fuck me up, take control, do bad things to my character its what I'm here for" yet despite this both have expressed dislike for losing control mid combat

[tacit skiff]

I've now given it more thought and realised I'm seeing it in too white room of a scenario... where you get unlucky and cascade, where you have more rounds remaining than can hold together without breaking... it is also opt in to having an NHP but the main revelation i just realised...

Power at a cost exists... :P

[regal hearth]

I have an agreement with one of my DMs that I will control my NHP even during cascade/unshackling, so I am that person xD

Specially because all the party are still clueless about how my NHP character works and her real background

But I have to say, in another campaign my character did cascade in combat (2-3 weeks ago) and I had my expectations crushed. Its fair that you can just shut down and turn your mech back on again to solve the problem

But its was kinda anti climatic to me

Maybe because I was expecting a lot in something that needs actual rules to work well in combat

[teal abyss]

yeah the existing system that incentivises you to just reboot the mech can take a lot out of wind out the sails. it's one of the reasons that I sometimes advocate for having the NHP forcibly eject the pilot (depending on the player and NHP in question) or alternatively act in a way that might be quasi-beneficial/can be roleplayed with so that it doesn't just turn into "oh I rolled a 1 and all that resulted in was me having to skip a turn" which is a common complaint. It's also why the NHP pilot rules allow you to retain control (at the cost of coming much closer to breaking/a full cascade)

it's a tricky situation to integrate with and it requires everyone involved to have the right mindset, and if that's not the fun that people want to have then it needs to be discussed like you did

[regal hearth]

I think its more suitable that I control my character during cascade because I had to plan her behaviour since the beginning, but I also have a 5 page pdf of everything the DM needs to know to play as my character when I am away xD

[paper dirge]

another quick Q on the Legionnaire talent's second rank! the reaction Reflective Code only works on Capital C Conditions (Lock On, Jammed, Stunned, Prone, etc.) and not bespoke debuffs from NPC systems/weapons, such as "if you attempt an attack and miss, you gain 2 heat", yeah?

[molten crag]

Correct

[teal abyss]

yes, that's correct, with the exception of Prone which is not a condition but a status

[fading pilot]

But if someone knocks you Prone, you become Slowed, and can make them Slowed in return?

Or a Blackbeard could Immobilize someone that grapples it?

[teal abyss]

no, the word "directly" is in there to prevent those kinds of shenanigans

[fading pilot]

Shame.

[boreal pebble]

Oh this might help with a homebrew thing I've been making that also triggers on conditions, but I didn't want to work with ones from Grappled or prone. I just called them out as exceptions but that's a bit inelegant, ill check Legionnaire 2 for wording

[paper dirge]

another quick Q on Reflective Code, mostly to make sure I have "directly gives you a condition" straight in my head for both my and my GM's benefit

• Hostile slaps Lock On on you: very straightforward, is inflicting Lock On.
• Hostile forces you to make a save or be Impaired: one extra step, but still directly inflicted.
• Hostile applies a debuff in which the condition only kicks off if you take a listed action: no longer directly inflicted, I could simply not do the thing that makes me get slapped with a condition.

[teal abyss]

Yes this is broadly correct (that last one subject to wording of the ability, I can imagine instances where that might count as directly)

[warm topaz]

Lore question: What do you suppose the NHPRO's attitude towards 'field-born' NHPs fielded by Lancers would be? For the sake of gameplay, obviously the pilot gets to keep them, but do you think the administration would tacitly approve of it or would there be a shadow of bureaucracy waiting just offscreen to descend on the pilots once the game ends?

[teal abyss]

I think it would strongly depend on circumstance and context, what organisation the pilot belongs to, etc. etc. If they're DoJ/HR for example, I imagine there are procedures already in place for all the bureaucracy to be handled by support staff. As long as the NHP is registered and tested appropriately it's probably not an issue for them. There's potential for the USB to be interested, especially if the NHP might be a new prime, but likely there are defined procedures in place and a lot of it would get handled at the organisational level.

"Per both of your stated wishes and the advisement of your commanding officer, your co-pilot has been assigned role and duties as appropriate to a provisional member of the DoJ/HR. You and your co-pilot will be permitted to work together for the remainder of your operational tour, provided that appropriate cycling guidance is followed. At the conclusion of your tour your co-pilot will be invited to participate in a brief examination by USB specialists, after which informed decisions can be made about your co-pilot's suitability for their role. There is a possibility that they will be reassigned or discharged from the DoJ/HR at that point, but it is our hope that you will continue to be able to work together for as long as you both desire it."

[warm topaz]

my players are union navy but i imagine the procedure would be quite similar to that (absent any internal politicking that isn't really the focus of this campaign)

this is a wallflower game so it is also definitely of interest to the USB already. Which will be a fun angle to work in. Thank you!

[tired grove]

Wanted to mention that the exotic NHPs from Legionnaire are great- my pilot in a long campaign I'm in is partnered with an INANNA-Class the party wound up meeting during their first major mission and the remote ramming in a blast zone is so much fun

[teal abyss]

That's really awesome ☺️

[fading pilot]

Would Reflective Code allow you to inflict Shredded on a Scout who hits you with a Marker Rifle, or just Lock On?

[teal abyss]

just Lock On

[restive knoll]

Hey guys. I can't find the Exotic Systems on the Leggionaire LCP. Any clue on where they are or should be?

[teal abyss]

Have you turned on exotics in Comp/Con's options?

[restive knoll]

Ah, I believe I haven't. Thank you! Do I need to activate anything else?

[teal abyss]

Shouldn't need to. Once you've turned that on you should see all the exotics for installed LCPs in the compendium

Adding to a character is a different story, you do that via their tactical profile

[fading pilot]

So this is a perfectly normal Mourning Cloak, except it can COME ON AND SLAM when no one is within reach.

-- SSC Mourning Cloak @ LL6 --
[ LICENSES ]
  IPS-N Nelson 2, IPS-N Blackbeard 1, IPS-N Tortuga 1, SSC Mourning Cloak 2
[ CORE BONUSES ]
  Overpower Caliber, Integrated Weapon
[ TALENTS ]
  Hunter 3, Duelist 3, Skirmisher 2, Pankrati 1
[ STATS ]
  HULL:4 AGI:2 SYS:0 ENGI:2
  STRUCTURE:4 HP:19 ARMOR:0
  STRESS:4 HEATCAP:6 REPAIR:5
  TECH ATK:0 LIMITED:+1
  SPD:6 EVA:14 EDEF:6 SENSE:15 SAVE:13
[ WEAPONS ]
  INTEGRATED WEAPON: Fold Knife
  FLEX MOUNT: Charged Blade
  MAIN/AUX MOUNT: War Pike (Thermal Charge) / Fold Knife // Overpower Caliber
[ SYSTEMS ]
  Siege Ram, Synthetic Muscle Netting, INANNA-Class NHP, Armament Redundancy

One of those rams deals 1d6+2 damage, and the rest deal 2.

[stoic moth]

Give it NuCav and let a slam do 2d6+2!

[grim sluice]

2 questions about the Puppeteer template:

1. For effects that trigger upon deployment, such as the Lurker's Umbral Shroud, is revival treated like deployment, allowing it to immediately summon an Umbral Shroud?

2. If an enemy is destroyed and then revived a second time, is the revived NPC treated like a separate NPC, resetting effects such as Avenger's Revenge?

[tacit skiff]

I'd treat it as a new deployment, and I'd treat it as if they already existed in the scene and haven't just deployed in the case of lurker. They need to slap a new zone down

[grim sluice]

Gotcha. What about resetting effects, like with Avenger and Revenge (both disabling it if it triggered and allowing it to trigger again bypassing the 1/scene)?

[tacit skiff]

new deployment

You know what... I'm not sure

Limited systems should remain. A pirate shouldn't shoot coreworms, die then respawn and shoot them again

But an avenger should untrigger revenge then be able to pop it again

In my opinion

[fading pilot]

Doesn't puppeteer remove all other templates?

[tacit skiff]

There's def some 1/Scene traits and abilities you won't want popped multiple times even after revive though I assume... Could just be best on case by case basis what you think works, is fair and is fun

Yes, I need to double check if it keeps traits

Ace and bombing bay or Aegis and the limited shield then as examples

[grim sluice]

I think Avenger getting its revenge shut down and retriggered is fair enough. It’s not like it’s getting up still Vengeful and triggering it again, it’s just allowing itself to keep its gimmick

[teal abyss]

As a general rule, an animated wreck is treated as a new character and using reanimation matrix counts as deployment/reinforcement for the purposes of effects that trigger then.

I can see an argument for forcing things like limited systems and lurker shroud zones (if you allow them to persist) to be tracked as if they were attached to a single consistent NPC and therefore not "refresh". Note that if you do want to rule it that way, you might also want to consider tracking recharge and loading states as well as system/weapon destruction across reanimated versions of that NPC for consistency. Currently the rules don't suggest you do this sort of thing in order to reduce the amount of bookkeeping involved, but YMMV on that and you're welcome to do it if you think it would be more fun.

[tacit skiff]

If using a vtt it can do that stuff for you. Foundry, you can just use the same statblock, because the character doesn't activate items don't recharge and such. So book keeping shouldn't be a problem depending on the VTT. But comp con or other vets can have issue so I assume the puppeteer is "treat it how you want with as much self inflicted pain as possible"

[wooden flicker]

Our group just fought two puppeteers last week

we had the option of running for our lives and ending the game early on round 2, or to stay and fight

despite everyone's enthusiasm for the game, we chose to run and have GM cut the session short

because each elite puppeteer was making 4 grunts from wrecks

and since they had the activation tail, they would have obliterated us

Was it right for the puppets to move immediately on the round they were created?

[rotund patrol]

What kind of grunts did the GM resurrect?

[wooden flicker]

in total it was 7 berserkers and 1 pyro

we managed to kill 4 berserkers by having our 2 controllers going full tech on them

[rotund patrol]

oh, that's nasty

so looking at the Puppeteer template, there's nothing about the grunts acting only in the round after being resurrected so I guess your GM was correct about having them act as soon as possible. Making it 7 Strikers is a whole nother discussion

[stoic moth]

How many PCs?

What sitrep? Did you have any hive drones, hardlight defence shields, other deterministic AoE damage, etc.?

And what tier?

[wooden flicker]

tier 3, LL9

we had 5 PCs

Opfor was, to the best of my memory, 2 horror pyros, 2 horror cataphracts, 2 elite puppeteer hives (with the ability to create 2 grunts in one quick action)

Our sitrep was to escort

Side mission was to scan buildings in the vicinity

I was firing my leviathan cannon at the Elite Puppeteer Hive from the get go, but with 40 HP to chew through, I couldn't one shot them

We beat the sitrep no problem on round 2, since Sunzi teleport shenanigan is super strong for Escort. Just that I dont think it was wise to stay back and duke it out with the puppeteers for side mission since we were very low on repcap (our 3rd sitrep) and we still have a 4th one

[tacit skiff]

Well, you won the sitrep so things went well considered

Sounds like it was a good challenge

[teal abyss]

solely addressing the rules query (I won't go into encounter design), it is intended that animated wrecks are added to the activation order on the turn they're created

[rotund patrol]

When there's a Puppeteer on the field, Siege Specialist 1 might come in really hand to just delete wrecks before they get up again

I myself want to run a Ultra Harvester Puppeteer sometime which got loosely inspired by 'Toothy' from The Forever Winter

[stoic moth]

And then a huge number of pre-existing striker wrecks?
Sounds rough!

[regal hearth]

genuine question, would prepare help in this situation?

[rotund patrol]

Prepare what? Prepare action?

[regal hearth]

yes

[rotund patrol]

What action to you want to prepare and with what trigger?

[obtuse jay]

i assume they're talking about using prepare to take out puppeteer wrecks as soon as they're animated, thereby trying to prevent them from getting to activate

[rotund patrol]

Ah I see, I mean, as long as you qualify for the Prepared Skirmish, you could, I guess

[tacit skiff]

Data dart ❤️

I love with integrated weapons like this you can go "wait a minute, this works with other talents like stormbringer or walking armoury". Which makes 100% sense from a game standpoint but not totally narrative

THis is not a criticism at all. I love it

I just find it funny shooting someone with a data dart as a hacker then going "AHA!" and shooting them with auxiliary concussive missile systems or loading a special sabot round into your hacking gun

Wait, you can data dart -> Puppet systems -> Stormbringer to launch someone real far away then prone them

[surreal owl]

Or just FragSig + Stormbringer them to slow + prone so they can only stand up on their turn, but not move afterwards

[tacit skiff]

🤮

That's gnarly

[fading pilot]

And it's even funnier that a Viceroy with Data Dart gets to Overwatch with it.

[stoic moth]

Anyone can Overwatch with it! Hacktuga with Tactician 3 Datadart is brutal

[rotund patrol]

But at least the Viceroy gets Threat 3 instead of 1

[tacit skiff]

Scylla data dart 🤮

[full isle]

I think that works as a legitimate permanent answer to what seems to be a frequent question

[crimson karma]

if an animated wreck is destroyed can it be revived again as long as no player destroys the wreck itself or is it fully gone at that point

[teal abyss]

It turns into a wreck once more and can be revived again

[verbal grotto]

I wanted to pop in to say thank you for the free copy I claimed, one of the last 2 from the art donations. I'm working a teaching event and I was interested in more NHP content especially because my players are very excited to explore that aspect of the game, and I appreciate you making it accessible to me with those donations. i love what I'm reading so far, I'll make sure to pass on the word about it<3

[teal abyss]

you are very welcome! the real thanks go to the generosity of the community for helping make these copies available 💜

[rotund patrol]

Pro tip: Run your Puppeteer encounter on a scrapyard so you never run out of wrecks

[night iris]

I've yet to see a puppeteer encounter that hasn't had a surplus of wrecks already on the battlefield

[rotund patrol]

https://tenor.com/view/the-book-of-boba-fett-din-djarin-this-is-the-way-the-mandalorian-pedro-pascal-gif-24828674

[crimson karma]

anyone have a favorite puppeteer wreck combo?

[rotund patrol]

Avengers might be evil, one pops, all the others go Super Saiyan

[bright dirge]

Lobber from In Gold en Flames

[night iris]

avenger revenge doesn't trigger off of grunts dying
so you need one normal NPC to die to power up all the grunts

[rotund patrol]

ah, beans

[tacit skiff]

Dumb interaction... can I invade a terrain feature with the data dart?

Very stupid but I realised you can target objects with weapons lmao

[stoic moth]

#1057955574949625948 message

So yes

[tacit skiff]

Biological is the obvious one

[stoic moth]

Also works on dead meat

And rocks

[tacit skiff]

But now I can balance control lockout a size 4 building...

[stoic moth]

Yep

Or Fold Space it

That's a nice size 7 building you're standing on there. Would be a real shame if it disappeared into another dimension

a real shame

[fading pilot]

So when is the next turn of an object?

[glass sapphire]

End of round is how i would rule it

As goofy that is

[stoic moth]

Not spelled out anywhere but the usual thing I see for burn checks is end of the round

[crimson karma]

Does an ultra with immunity to say immobilized avoid that status from mother of monsters on the puppeteer or does the part of the optional saying they can’t otherwise be removed overwrite the immunity

[surreal owl]

As long as the Immobilized is not self-inflicted, Immunity to Immobilized will neutralize it

[tacit skiff]

Well, yes and no. That's a good way of ruling it but as the GM it's up to you. Giving an ultra the ability to negate the downside of a powerful upside is a bit silly. So you can either do what Valk says and make it not work for self-inflicted conditions or make it so superior frame just negates mother of monsters

[rotund patrol]

Doesn't it simply depend on "Immunity to Status effect" or "Immunity to Status effect not afflicted by itself"?

[tacit skiff]

Yes

RAW the immunity from the ultra frametrait overrides the mother of monsters

As a GM, you can see if this is a good idea or not and choose to ignore it

[fading pilot]

It's like an Ultra Aegis with immunity to Immobilized. Don't do it.

[mortal sapphire]

@teal abyss is me so one of the players is playing an nhp character so during a lecture on nhp philopshy i decided to do a lecutre about nhps and thier history. The basic tldr was that the professor (a character i made myself) kinda dictated that nhps originated from 'the first generation' aka the demosians and how nhps were given rights and deserve to be people here. there is an otherness that humans had to understand that we cannot give them rights to the full extent that a normal human bieng for the NHPS safety and those around them in the classical sense.

The nhp also asked why shackling existed which led to an after lecture debate about the etics of shackling cause the professor has a more liberal view to shackling than the player

my personal interpretation of nhps and shackling is similar to the treatment of mental ilness in the 1900's. So i brought some of that energy in how the professor talked about them

[teal abyss]

interesting stuff! nice to see how that kind of ideology manifests in that kind of setting

[stoic moth]

I mean you can do it if you want to challenge your players. Just be aware of what you're doing and the knock-on mechanical implications.

Like if you want to make a tier 3 ultra ronin with superior melee, and immunity to Jammed and Immobilized you can. Just be aware the Sitrep is going to be a death match DPS race before anything else can be allowed to happen.

[teal abyss]

Hey gang! I know this is kind of an odd post for this thread, but I don't really have a better place to put this right now.

Due to a complex intersection of life circumstances (and a need to focus on Far Field), I am putting one of my projects on ice for a while. However, I've already done a bunch of work and some playtesting, and I'm proud of the results. It would suck to have that hard work indefinitely buried, especially since I don't know whether I'll have the time or ability to return to this later on. As a result I figured I'd post it as a draft for people to play with in the meantime!

To manage expectations: do not take this as an announcement of new first-party content. I am posting this in my personal capacity, and right now I have no plans to release this material. Additionally, questions and feedback are very much welcomed but since this project is on ice for now, please don't expect me to update or act on feedback in the immediate future.

---

These are three variant frames produced by the Free Sanjak Liberator Corps: a homegrown mech foundry on Sanjak that was established to serve the needs of the revolutionaries as the blockade continued.

• FSLC PARADISA (Dusk Wing variant) - / - an experiment in upgrading the K-PG virus with DHIYED paracode, that draws aggro by hacking enemies
• FSLC TITANIS (Tortuga variant) - - a huge up-armored and up-gunned mining and construction rig that can blast through terrain
• FSLC NEOPHRON (Drake variant) - - an adaptable and resilient scavenger mech that uses layers of ablative material to protect itself and its allies

Check them out and let me know what you think!

[tacit skiff]

Cone 9 core power 😩

Paradisa looks cool, so does the titanus... and the neophron...

Whats the naming scheme of the FSLC mechs?

[teal abyss]

birds 🙂

[tacit skiff]

Ima Google the titanus and if its a tiny little bird thing ima riot

[brittle vine]

Paradisa is a funny haha mech

using a witch's sensor range is diabolical

[tacit skiff]

Solid cool concept of a hacker/defender/evasion AND edef build

[surreal owl]

Terror bird genus apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanis?wprov=sfti1

[royal lion]

Well, it lives up to its name!

[tacit skiff]

Yeah

That bird is probably quite big

[surreal owl]

Big Bird, with a gun

[tacit skiff]

Decksweeper and daisy cutter

So the neophrons scavenger trait. The armour it can keep gaining/giving until it reaches armour cap of 4?

Or 3, I forgot the specifics

[teal abyss]

yep, only the core active bypasses the armor cap

[tacit skiff]

And extend shroud you can patch your armour back up if there's enough wrecks nearby

[analog dock]

For shock servos on titanis it might be nice to make the stationary stuff hostile only? Cause atm I think it would destroy ally (mines), turrets, heatsinks etc aswell

Or are they exmpt already via the obstruction wording? ( I have avoided a lot of obstruction stuff for my stuff so i am not that well versed in it yet!)

[tacit skiff]

Because it says obstruction and not object, anything that can't move is destroyed, walks on immobilised scout and crushes it to nothing /j

[teal abyss]

it works the same way as Juggernaut III

[royal lion]

For Shroud Mantle, are there effects other than Argonaut Shield that reduces damage to an adjacent character? That Sal1 Shield I think?

[teal abyss]

Aegis Shield Generator and Portable Bunker, also on the Drake, other systems across various licenses that grant resistance

and in playtest we've played around with having the armour increase count

[royal lion]

Oh huh, if you stand next to them when the Shield Generator does its thing it counts

[royal lion]

Ohhh I see I see

[teal abyss]

(counting armor as a reduction doesn't appear to break the game, but that one isn't solidified yet - it'd have to be the same ruling that you make for the interaction between Shield of the Legion and FORGE-2, which I know some people count and other people don't. For the purposes of this thread I'm not making that call here)

Leadership 3 also counts

[tacit skiff]

From scavenger?

[teal abyss]

yeah

given the pacing of most sitreps and the fact that the granted armor only lasts until the end of the scene, it seems to work out fine

but like I say, not set entirely in stone - absent any official clarification on Shield of the Legion, your GM would need to make a call there

[tacit skiff]

I think it works for this but I'm hesitant to use the same ruling for SOTL and forge armour packs... which is strange, which you mentioned and is only a problem if it comes up :P

[teal abyss]

also curious if anyone has any thoughts on the flavour for these mechs

[tacit skiff]

Flavour kicks ass

Love the titanus in concept and flavour

"Nice map... its a shame that i don't care"

[teal abyss]

the first time a Titanis player realises they can just walk through a wall to get where they need to go is v. much a "hell yeah" moment

[tacit skiff]

from a glimpse It's a size 3 mech that owns being a size 3 mech. The only other size 3 base mech is the barb which struggles with it. As a map maker, running barbarossa's RAW just sucks because they cannot go anywhere...

A mech that is about terrain destruction and just PASSIVELY destroys terrain is a super cool concept and way to get around the issues barbarossa has (outside of speed 2 which barbarossa does not deserve)

But the terrain destruction isn't entirely beneficial. Which I think fits the flavour of the mech of "this is a big weapon that was used by a Martyr to fuck shit up". It's a desperate push of destruction against an oppressor that is effective but not without flaw... In a similar way that the Seccom mechs also if mismanaged are poor for their allies

[stoic moth]

I believe you mean "Oh Yeah"

https://tenor.com/view/oh-yeah-oh-yeah-gif-oh-yeah-meme-kool-aid-kool-aid-man-gif-18211119326397565445

[forest bolt]

Extend Shround and House Guard 3...

big fan if it works

[onyx mauve]

extremely cool content

[brittle vine]

"nock nock karrakin boys, its the sanjaks here to check your privilege"

[teal abyss]

can't let the Kavalieres have all the fun

[brittle vine]

i can imagine a certain student of the college giggling to herself seeing it

speaking of, Kat do you got a description of these mechs ?

[urban flower]

paradisa really got those stats waow

titanis... MY POOR MAPS! how dare you just walk through them 😭

metastatic chain can that chain as often as you want? (want to take the heat that is :3)
[can you invade the next character with it and then the next and so on?]

[teal abyss]

not yet. would love to hear people's thoughts though

so long as it's not "birds"

[teal abyss]

yeah you can keep going for as long as you're willing to take extra heat

[urban flower]

yeah I really like paradisa, it wants agility for evasion maxxing, it wants systems for the core power and hacking, it wants heat for the chain and obviously everyone wants hull

[brittle vine]

i honestly think the titanis is something more akin to the killdozer, a industrial/mining mech that someone attatched pieces to it

quad legged for sure

[teal abyss]

https://bsky.app/profile/kastark.bsky.social/post/3lk7p3qq4nk2i

Katherine Stark (@kastark.bsky.social)

Playtested a new mech tonight and I'm pleased to discover I have made the most HASE-hungry frame in existence #lancerrpg

Bluesky · Mar 12, 2025, 11:07 PM

[urban flower]

hahaha

[teal abyss]

the feeling of "oh shit I need more of everything dear god I'm going to die" is real

[urban flower]

well okay to be fair

it has amazing base stats (i would say like top 10... maybe 9th in terms of stats?)

but yeah, i really like it when mechs are like this

[fading pilot]

So why does Nephron have only two mounts?

Also, does the increase in armor count as reducing damage for the Shroud?

[teal abyss]

Yeah, it's a very solid statline, and as it stands it could almost certainly stand to lose some stats somewhere. The real question for testing has been where - right now the main candidates are save target, speed, maybe evasion. It's a really interesting design consideration because in playtest it has felt like its base stats were barely enough - which for the moment I'm putting down to its role as a magnet for enemy attacks. If I were doing the normal playtest process I would probably shave its stats down over time until I found the limit where it starts feeling bad

[teal abyss]

it felt right 🙂
EDIT: to elaborate, it forces tougher choices when building (particularly around whether or not to equip the Leviathan) and moves it a little further into the defender role

[teal abyss]

see this discussion up here: #1057955574949625948 message

TL;DR we have playtested it that way and it doesn't seem to break the game, but ultimately it comes down to how your GM wants to rule Shield of the Legion

[teal abyss]

oh! I almost forgot! @earnest kiln did some really cool Neophron art here:
https://bsky.app/profile/t3nshi.bsky.social/post/3lhgm5splbk2b

t3nshi (@t3nshi.bsky.social)

"When your body isn't wide enough for your allies to take cover, you must find ways to expand it."

#mech #mechdesign #lancerRPG

Bluesky · Feb 5, 2025, 12:47 PM

[brittle vine]

Hell yhea

[verbal heron]

I like the use of bird names, given how important the ability to see the sky is to the people of Free Sanjak

like iirc their flag is a yellow fusion rifle on a blue sky

If the heat from an invade is enough to destroy an NPC, do I still get to use Metastatic Chain?

[summer linden]

Made a quick little Gorgon3-Paradisa. #mech-hangar message
Whiteroom comparison to the same build on a Gorgon, the bulk seems similar (Gorgons HP vs Paradisas Eva and rep cap). Gorgon punishes enemies better, but Paradisa protects allies better 🤔
Is an interesting frame

[teal abyss]

It's very rarely relevant but you can order the effects of an invade whichever way you like since they happen at the same time - so for the purposes of things like Grunts you can resolve the effect before the NPC takes the heat and dies

[teal abyss]

very cool! do let me know how it goes if you ever get the chance to play it

[verbal heron]

grunts are exactly what I was thinking of, thanks 😄

[royal lion]

Oh this a banger, compliments to the chef

[earnest kiln]

cheers :D it was a load of fun :3

[mortal sapphire]

Hmmmm I have some thoughts that might be a bit more critical miss stark

[teal abyss]

critical feedback is welcome as long as it's productive, though as I say I'm not likely to act on it any time soon

this is posted up for folks to use while I work on other stuff

[mortal sapphire]

Ye I really love the idea of the paradisa but it feels like is only really got a reason to use neurospike and flicker field.

Maybe giving incentive to mount some of the more obscure and often unused defender stuff if dusk wing could be fun? A suggestion I had was making one of its invades target allies so they can give out metal marks carapace trait.

Which would synergize super well with veil rifle and oasis wall.

(This is at least my feedback as someone whose tested like a dozen potential dusk wing defender alts in my own ungrateful centric brew lol)

Hyper reality memetics is very funny tbh lol

[mortal sapphire]

I also really love terrain destruction tortuga. Keying more into the use of siege ram, through bolt and daisy cutters terrain destruction capabilities is brilliant

[stoic moth]

Why is it only incentivised to use those two options? Both integrated invades are extremely potent

Metastatic invade was used rampantly in the playtesting I've seen of it, so I'm not sure I agree with that assessment

[urban flower]

an invade that targets allies is unconventional, that's just a support system, right?

Maybe you go with the opposite:
if the target is impaired, they instead have 2 difficulty on certain attacks (maybe just one, maybe just end of turn?)

[stoic moth]

Invades in general shouldn't be structured to only work on allies. Like it's fine if they also work on allies, like puppet systems, or beckon, but a pure only allied invade should probably just be a custom tech action

[urban flower]

I do like the chain invade

[stoic moth]

It's super fun. Give it a drive

[urban flower]

what if the paradis had lower evasion, but instead a trait like the metalmark carapace but for impaired.

2 difficulty instead of 1

that works with the taunt trait
It works with the burst launcher and stuncrown
and it works with sigfrag invades

[stoic moth]

The taunt trait doesn't Impair?

[urban flower]

but if a target is impaired, then it has 2 difficulty against all characters

1 cuz of impaired, 1 cuz of taunt

And then also 2 against the paradisa itself cuz of impair carapace

[stoic moth]

Aaah I follow

[teal abyss]

(just so we're clear you're welcome to discuss stuff but I am not taking suggestions)

[urban flower]

oh yeah totally

[mortal sapphire]

ye

[urban flower]

On that note, why is titanis a tortuga alt

You can ram objects for 10AP, but you can already just run objects over

am i missing smth?

[teal abyss]

because it works

[urban flower]

:3

[obtuse jay]

consider that the titanis can only run things over on the standard move; that's not a lot of spaces per turn
also, sometimes you need to thwack one specific object but not others. and sometimes you might need to do absurd damage to one specific object by walking into it and then also ramming it.

seems straightforward to me

[urban flower]

makes sense

Will definitely playtest to try it out.

[royal lion]

Why's the Titanis a Tortuga alt btw? Is it just Siege Ram or are there other license synergies?

[royal lion]

...wow am I really that blind

Though the question still stands, any other specific intended synergies or only Siege Ram?

[forest bolt]

I’d think that Tort’s weapon arsenal is reason enough. It’s an incredibly flexible frame and license to begin with

And, of course, HDA on a size 3

A bit tasty perhaps

[royal lion]

Yeah was just wondering if there was more to it than just the License being generally good for a close-quarters behemoth

Though now that I think about it, DSAS Vanguard 3 on size 3....

[forest bolt]

That’s what I’m saying

[royal lion]

Aye fair enough

[stoic moth]

Being able to destroy objects without walking over them is extremely important for the the purposes of the Deadfall trait so Siege Ram is very useful that.
Daisy Cutter likewise on average does enough damage to blow up an size 1 objects caught in the cone

[urban flower]

that's a good point about daisy cutter

[teal abyss]

also fun fact, the lore for the Catalytic Hammer is that it was adapted from mining equipment

[urban flower]

alright ive come around, i get it now :3

[verbal heron]

I do really wanna make a titanis with bulkwark mods now. Make yourself extremely hard to follow

[odd sluice]

YO SIZE THREE TORTIE ALT LETS GO

Looking over these, definitely gonna throw them to my players for testing, they rule

[glacial pulsar]

hey just jumping in to say that I'm immediately obsessed with these new frames, Titanis especially fuckin rocks

just gonna go full Kool-Aid man as soon as I can deploy one of these

wait important question about these frames: Are all of these meant to have speed 6 or is that a typo?

okay yeah I'm seeing that the lcp is different for that

[tacit skiff]

Speed 6 titanis

"I have declared that 12 tiles of this map are simply not"

I mean... pumping agi into the Titanis could actually be quite viable

especially with a IPS-N licence so you can gget +5 hp or +1 armour

Pankrati charge someone through 3 walls

[glacial pulsar]

hear me out here: Nelson Liscence for ramjets

[tacit skiff]

Yep

[royal lion]

Titanis' trait only works on Standard move

[tacit skiff]

Shit you right

[royal lion]

Of course you could always Juggernaut 3, but, y'know, heat cost :P

[glacial pulsar]

So that's true, but I do think the extra movement is viable for sort of lining up your shots

[tacit skiff]

waaait

[glacial pulsar]

like get in position with a boost or whatever then take a standard move to break the walls and stuff

[royal lion]

You could also keep switching between standard move and boost

I think that's legal?

[glacial pulsar]

yeah I believe so

[royal lion]

3 steps Boost, 2 steps standard move, 3 steps Boost, 4 steps standard move

[glacial pulsar]

(also I am picturing ramjets on this thing as like. The frame isn't moving its limbs at all, its just standing stock still getting rocketed around through walls)

[royal lion]

Ground missile with limbs

[glacial pulsar]

joke builds aside, I'd def just go for zheng liscences with this

[royal lion]

No Nelson? Bulwark Mods might be important

[glacial pulsar]

oh true, and war pike on a size 3 has obvious appeal

hmm maybe 1 level dips into both zheng and Nelson actually

[tacit skiff]

-- IPS-N Titanis @ LL6 --
[ LICENSES ]
  IPS-N Tortuga 2, IPS-N Nelson 3, IPS-N Zheng 1
[ CORE BONUSES ]
  Titanomachy Mesh, Reinforced Frame
[ TALENTS ]
  Juggernaut 3, Vanguard 3, Duelist 3
[ STATS ]
  HULL:0 AGI:4 SYS:0 ENGI:4
  STRUCTURE:4 HP:20 ARMOR:2
  STRESS:4 HEATCAP:10 REPAIR:4
  TECH ATK:-1 LIMITED:+2
  SPD:5 EVA:10 EDEF:6 SENSE:5 SAVE:13
[ WEAPONS ]
  HEAVY MOUNT: Heavy Melee Weapon
  FLEX MOUNT: Tiger-Hunter Combat Sheathe
[ SYSTEMS ]
  Bulwark Mods, Ramjet, Siege Ram, Personalizations, Total Strength Suite I, Armament Redundancy

Shitty build

Because I wanted to stack ramjet and juggernaut on a mech and make it worth it

20 hp with no HUll investment lmao

Basically, ramjet + Juggernaut through walls, making a massive trail of difficult terrain that you ignore because you have bulwark mods. Run up to someone them main melee them + duelist + grapple

And like, grapple because you're size 3 and just be a problem in their face

[glacial pulsar]

I do also think there's something fun to just like

setting up on a defensive point, activating hyperdense armor and just getting to work on destroying the terrain around you to make it dangerous so that people can't get close

hey what if we put prospector on this thing, its not good but it is funny

[tacit skiff]

o no

I think it's pretty ggood

Prospector size 3 is pretty damn good

Oh damn I have vanguard 3 and no CQB's Oops 😅

[glacial pulsar]

ngl my instinct for meme builds is to take superheavy mounting and a d/d 288

[tacit skiff]

Doesn't need superheavy, already has a heavy

BUT DD288 FITS ON EVERY MECH BUILD EVER

[royal lion]

(Except Tokugawa and Gorgon)

[tacit skiff]

No

They simply don't exist in my mind

[royal lion]

Fair enough

[tacit skiff]

Wait duelist gains die on melee hits

so it's valid to punch a rock then ram 2 rocks to break them into dangerous terrain

nvm duelist 3 is ram your target

So it does work but titanomachy mesh only works on 20hp+ rocks

[royal lion]

Gain die on main melee hits, but spend em on any melee hit

[tacit skiff]

And at that point you can also just... ram it in the first place

YEa

Wait

HAHA

You can ram duelist ram titanomachy ram

RAM RAM RAM

[royal lion]

That works!