#Field Guide to Suldan

1 messages · Page 4 of 1

ionic badger
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Govardhana would probably be pretty sick on the Viceroy

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just run out of charges fairly quickly

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but still a great thing to keep in your Aux/Aux

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Teen Baan would be trickier, since they have ordnance
doesn't lend itself as well to a close in style of the Viceroy

rotund axle
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I think a while back there was a conversation on #lancer-general about how Base and Bonus Damage dice aren't usually separated so theoretically could you just roll a ton of dice due to bonus damage and pick the ones that landed on 6 to be the "base" dice?

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For the Motorized Tetsubo I mean

hasty pulsar
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that's another use case for why i advocate separating your base and bonus damage rolls by default

devout river
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Yeah, there are a number of effects that distinguish between them so its a good idea IMO

hasty pulsar
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like even outside of homebrew stuff there's still a bunch of shit that needs it in core

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gestures at Toku

dusk arch
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Generally you do not separate base damage and bonus damage into pools, and doing so is likely to cause confusion about how things like critical hits or armor work

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The chainsword and tetsubo specify base damage dice when it comes to their special rules as a way to keep the odds of proccing them consistent rather than allowing them to be manipulated by adding bonus damage dice into the mix

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As always, the golden rule of lancer is that specifics take precedence over generalities, and these weapons are an example of that

drifting eagle
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The walking armoury hellfire rounds also care about it, so I could see separating them when it is specifically required, but otherwise I wouldn't. shrug

steel fern
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Completely random, but is there a 'canonical' ship number for Iffy? I'm wrapping up a campaign and my group spent enough time working with her even when they had other options that i feel like they deserve a formal farewell with honors.

I can just roll a d100,000, but i figured i'd ask. It would help me resist the urge to make [IPH(UNS-LS_42069)]

dusk arch
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Nothing canonical on that front, go with what feels good

rotund axle
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Can you benefit from Shield Array Drone even if you're size 3?

dusk arch
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No, it's basically a mobile size 2 unit of hard cover and you abide by the usual rules for taking hard cover in that regard, you have to be the same size or smaller

rotund axle
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I see I see

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Thanks

dusk arch
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A couple of crucial distinctions here are:
1). for the purpose of anything like effects that care about size, the drone is still treated as size 1/2, i.e. it won't obstruct other people like it's a size 2 unit
2). you can't hide using it, same way as you can't use characters with Guardian to hide behind

broken hill
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Just to verify, the Matador's IFF spoofer and Hostile Architecture are not reactions and don't require targeting the enemy, so do not break hidden?

devout river
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Yup, they are not actions at all

dusk arch
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Thinking about the Nightmare some more, which a lot of people seem to be using lately interestingly enough, and I'm considering what it would be like if I took Inductive Talons and made them threat 3, expanding the area of their +accuracy/save difficulty effect accordingly (and probably lowering their damage)

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as an optional I like giving a tech-oriented controller a weapon they can mix in there, but I think in its existing version it may be a bit hard to really bring into play

amber crystal
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I would like that

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Right now I often bring the Talons and then play them like an ambusher

dusk arch
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It would also, interestingly, give them a little more in-kit synergy with Amygdala Spike now more clearly functioning like puppet systems

rotund axle
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So, the Talon Drones take a quick action to recall and redeploy, but what about just deploying them? Also a quick action?

dusk arch
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They can start already deployed, and deploying them is a quick action, yes

rotund axle
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Alrighty thanks

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Oh huh no clue how I missed that

image.png
plush hedge
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Teen Baan Missiles + MASS Pack seem like quite the potent combination. You could slap marker rounds on the Missiles themselves and repeatedly apply lock-on in a massive blast 2 area, or put them on something like a mortar or Sharanga, letting you apply lock-on before firing the Teen Baan in single-target mode in the same turn, getting around the ordnance tag via barraging

nova slate
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oh a questio nabout the nightmare

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the idea is slap em with claws, then invade em right?

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or does it not even need to attack with the claws, jus tbe adjacent

dusk arch
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if you had to hit them with the talons then it would say "on hit" or something

amber crystal
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@dusk arch Does Herschel fit as the Suldan version of a rich competitive road cycling racer? He comes off this way with me with Charioteer

dusk arch
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He's a very Tony Stark sort of personality

amber crystal
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So yes. Gotcha. I've been playing as the chill rich engineer who seems to be making deals in the background while Jun takes most of the attention.

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I'll turn that aspect of his up

dusk arch
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That's pretty much it. He does play up the "rich playboy" aspect a lot whenever he wants to make people underestimate him

amber crystal
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I feel like I've been playing the two of them too calmly to keep the attention on the players while they become the Grand Champions

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But the politics' shifting now

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Arclight just found out that their best financial ally, House of Stone's Boulder Company, was caught torturing Gabriel Huang.

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So ArcLight's gonna go full submissive mode to not lose their Port Ossman contract from Genevieve Huang

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That's how I'm playing it so far.

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Good time for Herschel to come on and shit on ArcLight some more, is what I'm thinking

hidden plinth
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questions about IBEJI.

  1. If I use self destruct on a IBEJI clone, does it just detonate the clone or does it detonate both original and the clone but you can choose which mech to center the blast around it.
  2. can you target yourself using IBEJI clone? for example, lich's haste or bolster action? and if you can, does the effect apply to both original and clone or just the one targeted?
dusk arch
# hidden plinth questions about IBEJI. 1) If I use self destruct on a IBEJI clone, does it just...

1). "The echo shares all of your stats, systems, weapons, traits, and abilities, but it has only 5 HP, no Heat Cap, and cannot meltdown, Self-Destruct, or trigger any effects from being destroyed." So the echo can't self destruct or be made to self destruct such as via meltdown.
2). "This echo counts as yourself for the purpose of effects and abilities, but is otherwise considered a separate character." This means that the echo and yourself both count as "you," and one of the fundamental rules of targeting in Lancer is that you can't target yourself with things that target "allies" etc.

hidden plinth
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thanks for a response. follow up on 2), can you target yourself if it's not for allies? such as regular attack (melee,/ranged/tech)?

dusk arch
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The only way you can normally target yourself with attacks is if there's some sort of AoE that you end up caught in the blast radius of, i.e. if you fire an RPG point blank you have to roll against yourself, but otherwise you aren't able to attack yourself per the valid targeting rules on page 65 which list the valid targets for attacks as:

• other characters;
• objects that aren’t held or worn, and aren’t part
of a mech;
• spaces in the environment or on the ground.```
and also states
```Unless otherwise specified,
characters can’t target themselves.```
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As a separate character the echo can be targeted independently of you, that is someone can shoot it or you with an attack instead of having to attack both of you at once, but the echo and your default body both count as "you" for the purpose of things like valid targeting parameters or effects which state "you" somewhere in there

gentle forge
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What's some cool stuff you can do with the speciality licenses? I haven't seen anyone use those, haven't even seen many people talk about them even

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Seeker Catapult looks neat, combining the two crit based talents

rotund axle
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Take Myrmidon
Equip Suzukaze Thermoregulation
Win

gentle forge
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oh

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yeah

hasty pulsar
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yeah I do enjoy the infinite free flight with the SSC core bonus

rotund axle
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Damn right 😌

drowsy coyote
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Okay real questions, ideas for a mech race done in a combat

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I’m thinking custom sitrep were you score points by doing loops

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I ask here because it’s suldan styled

gentle forge
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someone did make a thing for that #gm-corner message

steel fern
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Just wanted to chime in that i finally wrapped a Suldan campaign - the brave mercs of MSMC's 1504th Company robbed Arclight, helped the SIF, and then went full bore on teaming up with Union. They blackmailed together a coalition of everyone on the planet to storm the Emir's last base, only to accept ||Miranda's deal for her freedom in exchange for ARASKA's location and the Emir's bio-key||. One eidolon fight ||on Eden|| later, they self destructed the defence net rather than give any faction than much power (except for a dozen killsats they redirected to protect a damaged Iphigenia). As the heroes of Hadiqa, they accepted a huge novelty check, cashed it, and flew their stolen shuttle towards the next warzone having finally paid off their creditors. (in fairness, they refused to use the defence grid to extort anyone, even just for a little while)

Thank you to Kai Tave and all the other contributors for your work, it was good fun to GM through!

drowsy coyote
steel fern
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So much detail i didn't get to, i feel like i could run it for an entire 'nother tier and still not cover everything.

drowsy coyote
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Thanks a million

dusk arch
dusk arch
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it reminds me of the days of wipeout XL where it was a valid strategy to simply kill enough of the other racers that the results were a foregone conclusion

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and while sitreps do exist to deemphasize the "deathmatch" nature of tactical combat, I haven't really figured out a framework for presenting that as a race in a way that feels good

drowsy coyote
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I think, for sitreps like that my go to has been, the NPCs can just win before the end of the scene. I don’t count the points at round 6 or 8 I do a check each round and if they hit the objectives the scenes ends.

midnight crypt
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Focused around reducing capabilities and the like

drowsy coyote
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Cold core colosseum also had a great idea, you just respawn back at the other side of the map whenever you score a point which also was fun

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I did their sitrep were you have to extinguish the pyres

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It’s a lot of fun definitely recommend

amber crystal
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I.e. To pass a check point, they must get this close to a pylon and attack it.

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Same thing with a hockey match that I was thinking of, where the characters have to chase a puck around, and damage dealt correlates to how much knockback they get on the puck.

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So that they have motivation to dump their damage onto an indestructible object, rather than NPCs.

drifting eagle
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Could do the IGPX method of not allowing the beatings to start till the second lap.

faint fjord
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I'd have the combat be intersticed, so there's maybe a couple rounds of jockeying for position tactically before switching to a more narrative mechanic

gentle forge
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I heard someone propose like a chariot/train race

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where the PCs and NPCs are on some sort of vehicles, and have to do objectives to speed theirs up or slow others down

rotund axle
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Why does Ogoun mention this again?

image.png
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Is it like, if the condition was caused by a Hull/Agility save it doesn't happen?

devout river
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You already failed the save so the effect still happens

rotund axle
broken hill
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To allow you to react to stun/jam still

rotund axle
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Ah, makes sense then

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I guess there's also if you take more damage due to the condition like falling or something

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Then you get to resist it

ionic badger
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It's just to make clear that even though you would be Stunned, you can still take the reaction anyway

nova slate
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yeah, its cause a number of conditions might otherwise specifically disable reactions

amber crystal
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Current update on my Suldan campaign: The former House of Sand double agent noble stares down certain death in the form of a Champion Veteran Elite Ronin, piloted by a House of Sand master assassin and swordperson named Duncan Idaho.

Meanwhile, the ex-pirates are holding back the large squad of their former comrades trying to kidnap them.

devout river
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Sounds like much FUN is being had

amber crystal
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The best part is that the players know the killcode to make Idaho kill his charge. It'd play into the House of Sand's ploy, so they're trying to defeat him without resorting to the killcode .

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That and Idaho's charge knows important information to take down the House of Sand.

rotund axle
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If you Scan the target that means the Saboteur Drone automatically passes all checks, including the checks to shake it off?

eager cedar
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not Kai, but I don't think so - in compcon it's formatted such that only the initial Hull check succeeds automatically;

Choose a hostile mech within Sensors and make a contested check using Grit against the target's Hull. On a success, the drone latches onto their mech and begins jockeying the target, benefiting from your talents. You automatically succeed on all attempts at this check if you Scan the target at any point beforehand during the scene.

rotund axle
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Right, looks like I misread it a bit

dusk arch
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Correct, it's just the check to latch on and begin jockeying that becomes an auto-pass once the target has been scanned

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it REMAINS an auto-pass as well for the duration of the scene, but checks to pry the drone off are unaffected

final forum
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Hey, whats the naming theme forC+H mechs?

dusk arch
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Types of combattant, with an emphasis on sport, gladiatorial, or martial art combat

final forum
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ohhhh dope

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thakn you!

dusk arch
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@jolly elm If you're referring to Auto-Adjusting Weight, it won't really "carry over" with any part of Executioner except rank 3, which is a reroll. Rank 1 is two separate attacks and auto-adjusting weight is 1/round on the threat increase portion, and Rank 2 is its own separate effect from the attack which procs it.

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Now with Rank 1, you're free to use the 1/round threat increase on either the initial attack or the secondary one however you like

jolly elm
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Disappointing but good to know. Thanks for the specification

dusk arch
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Yeah ongoing threat increase which tied into executioner would be more potent than I really want out of the mod, it's a thing that can get out of hand pretty quick if you aren't careful

gray thistle
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It'd be a bit much alongside the reliable

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Is a really nice mod already

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Makes me feel pretty good about heavy charged blade too

sinful steeple
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heyo

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been wondering

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what was the design principle behind ogoun class nhp (kalista 3)?

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effects of a super-buffed brace for every attack until the start of next turn without any downsides outside of 3 heat

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wee bit strong, innit

devout river
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And getting Immobilised, Jammed, or Stunned in order to trigger it

nova slate
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all of those things are pretty hefty yeah

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especially since like... your enemy could potentially just ignore you then

devout river
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Yeah, Immobilised and Jammed can quite easily make you basically skip your next turn, and Stunned essentially forces you to (unless someone on your team has a way to remove it, but that is its own cost)

nova slate
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its also 3 SP which can be decently consequential

rotund axle
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It's basically 3 SP and 3 Heat for a "Not get your ass kicked even harder when you're already on the ground"

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Yeah and enemies can and probably will just ignore you

nova slate
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first guys like "wow we do so little damage, lets just hit someone else"

sinful steeple
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ive read that as "hit by any attack"

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if its supposed to be only on attacks that jam you etc i get it a bit more

languid cosmos
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Hit by an attack or fail a save, either of which imposes those conditions

nova slate
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yeah you already have to be getting affecting by a immobilize, jam, or stun for you to use it

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not just hit by an attack

wise loom
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so

sinful steeple
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tbh i feel like "you are immobilised, jammed or stunned" would be better wording

wise loom
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you could Brace the Demo Hammer

sinful steeple
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since me and several other people assumed it was on any attack plus immob jam stun checks

wise loom
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or any of the Demo's other ways of stunning you

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or Sap

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sorry

languid cosmos
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You can brace the hammer if you fail the save

wise loom
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Drain Systems

devout river
sinful steeple
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"you are immobilised, jammed or stunned from a hostile source"

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bingo

devout river
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Well we will see what Kai has to say, they may have reasons for the particular wording

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One trick is that the reaction needs to go off before the condition is applied as Jammed and Stunned shut down reactions

sinful steeple
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i just feel like its important to highlight that this unclear wording has sparked a massive controversy in my lancer peer group

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would be swag cool to get that fixed

devout river
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And that is good feedback

sudden badger
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How does Dipping Swallow interact with Sagarmatha's Heroism? Is it reasonable to say that Heroism is not used up if you get the kill with the Improvised?

nova slate
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i wouldn't say so myself, but I don't term the "using of the ability" as a negative of the brace

sudden badger
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Just wondering if I can hedge my DSM bets and keep my Heroism for when it doesn't pull through

rotund axle
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I guess it's a matter of when do you get to decide the use of Heroism? Can you use it on the start of a turn after a Brace or are you supposed to use it when you use a Brace?

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Because if it's a former then yeah you could reasonably DSM then decide afterwards if you wanna use Heroism or not

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Checking #rules-questions backlogs, it seems that you have to declare the use of Heroism the moment you Brace so

sudden badger
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I do wonder if I could argue that the counter-attack is part of the Brace reaction, leaving the decision until after it's all resolved 🤔

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(the alternative is to abandon the idea and try running it on a Tortuga and argue for the +accuracy on the Improv)

dusk arch
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1). If you use Heroism with a Sagarmatha that has to be declared as part of the brace, you can't retroactively engage it post hoc, and Dipping Swallow merely interacts with the portions of Brace which are a component of the action itself, not other actions or resources granted by other things like frame traits

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so comboing those two together is largely redundant

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you CAN do it, but a successful counter-kill won't refund you heroism

sudden badger
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Guess I could still use it as a "free" retaliate for 2 heat 1/scene

dusk arch
sudden badger
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I'm not sure if I'm reading it correctly though - does DSM benefit from Tortuga's +acc on reactions or not?

dusk arch
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You can inform your peer group that the intent very much is only attacks or saves which inflict those conditions (Immobilized, Jammed, or Stunned)

dusk arch
sudden badger
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Ok, got it. Thank you 👍

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I might be repeating a question already answered, but does Lord of Iron interact with Grapples from same size/larger enemies? It's a melee attack, but it doesn't directly apply Immobilise

dusk arch
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anyway ogoun is very specifically a thing that works on attacks or saves because I don't really want to bother dealing with its use regarding deterministic applications of those, of which there are kind of a surprising number scattered across the NPCs...Archers have a way they can force Immobilize sans save or attack, the Titan-Snare Drone is similar, and I feel like an ability which grants ongoing resistance is potent enough to merit some counterplay

dusk arch
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On hit, grapple (an attack) can cause you to become immobilized, so it counts as a thing you can use Lord of Iron in response to IF you would become immobilized from that grapple

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you can't use it on ANY grapple just because Immobilize is a thing that COULD happen from any given grapple if you are size 2 and a size 1/2 mech is attempting to grapple you

sudden badger
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Ah, Grapple is not a status/condition

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I misread that, sorry

dusk arch
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nah it's fine

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it's sort of an unofficial status of sorts, but there's no "way to clear Grappled specifically"

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(another thing which lord of iron being attacks and saves prevents is people going "if I lose a hull check to be in control of the grapple can I use lord of iron")

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I'm not opposed to a wording revision but usually the proposals people suggest do things which I don't actually want or have their own misunderstandings or lacks of clarity, and if I'm being honest I have to admit I think it's kind of unusual to see a clause like that with a specifier at the end and assume it only applies to one portion thereof and not the other

sudden badger
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So Lord of Iron will not counter the Jam from breaking Witches' tethers then?

dusk arch
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Trigger: You are hit by an attack which causes you to become Immobilized, Jammed, or Stunned, or fail a save which causes you to become Immobilized, Jammed, or Stunned. the other alternative is this and frankly I dislike this one on several levels

dusk arch
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an attack applied the tether, what happens after that is a secondary thing, lord of iron cares about "did the attack or save in question directly apply this debuff y/n"

sudden badger
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Witches must die @_@
Then again, you did create Matador...

dusk arch
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like I said, ogoun even with its restrictions in play is a pretty powerful tool, it's hyperdense armor on demand, and I think having some stuff which it can't be employed against is fair game

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and note you CAN deliberately choose to fail saves, as it's been pointed out, so there might be compelling circumstances where you deliberately let a berserker immobilize you with a nailgun in order to proc it, but you ARE still immobilized (or jammed, or stunned)

sinful steeple
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And having a little wordy descriptor as payoff for non-misunderstandable mechanics would be a small price to pay in my POV

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Idk if I'm missing something

rotund axle
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Could replace the "or" with a "/", like "If you are hit by an attack/fail a save", and maybe replacing the "causes you" with "and"?

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"If you are hit by an attack/fail a save and would become Immobilized, Jammed, or Stunned"

dusk arch
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the thing is, I do not actually like the rewording because I think it's ugly as shit, sorry

sinful steeple
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I mean yeah thats fair and I agree on some level

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But again, small price

dusk arch
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I mean I guess I'm curious, do people think "when you GRAPPLE or RAM larger targets" means the "larger targets" part only comes into play when you ram and not when you grapple?

gray thistle
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With a comma after grapple, yes. But not like this

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Speaking of, need to add a comma in my own homebrew

sinful steeple
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pretty much that except they said it better than I ever could

dusk arch
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right but the point is that the clause "when you grapple or ram larger targets" applies the qualifier "larger targets" to both

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and people don't seem to get hung up on that

gray thistle
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Yeah, I don't see the issue myself

dusk arch
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ferrin is saying IF it had a comma it would come across as two disjointed clauses

gray thistle
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Yup

dusk arch
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when you grapple**,** or ram larger targets

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and that would indeed signify a separation of clause

swift mesa
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Yeah, that reads are two seperate effects

sinful steeple
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Wait yeah hold on i kinda goobed myself i think

dusk arch
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meanwhile lord of iron similarly does not have a comma anywhere

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You are hit by an attack or fail a save which causes you to become Immobilized, Jammed, or Stunned.

swift mesa
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I literally had to deal with this shit at work today becuase someone was fighting SQL and I had to go through adding brackets to help the poor computer not see things as seperate clauses XD

sinful steeple
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Would just swapping around the trigger clauses help?

You fail a save or are hit by an attack which causes you to become Immobilized, Jammed, or Stunned.

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Keeps the slim wording and completely eliminates the "oh I can trigger it after being hit" i was worrying about

dusk arch
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I mean if the issue is people are reading the first clause as being wholly unrelated from the qualifier then I don't see why swapping their places would work because now the same people will be going "oh you can use this when you fail any save"

sinful steeple
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I guess it kinda opens up "oh I can trigger this after failing a save" but if you read the rest it becomes kinda clear?

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Like, what kind of trigger condition is "attack that immobilises etc you"

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My brain just applies that to the save as well

dusk arch
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like, why would I make a thing that said the triggers are:
1). Any attack period
2). saves, but only those that do specific things

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instead of "these specific qualifiers probably apply to both attacks and saves equally"

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I say this fully cognizant that english is an imperfect language, but at a certain point I feel like I also have to stand by my writing a bit

sinful steeple
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As a response to both this and #1057779385027002388 message, I think the confusion stems at least partly from the fact that "you are hit by an attack" is an established trigger (jager dodge, brace off the top of my head, I'm certain there's more) so the average monkey brain (its me, I'm monkey) recognises it as a trigger on its own and goes "wow I can trigger this on every attack"

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At this point I guess this is more idiot-proofing than an actual issue but I feel like its still valid to ask

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I gtg now but ill be back later to read replies

barren helm
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Reading through it, the only thing that seems remotely justifiable is a clause swap, that is say "When you become Immobilized, Slowed, or Jammed by failing a save or being hit by an attack". But that has the same inherent problem of it not working if people don't read the entire sentence. I think the original wording is correct. No reason to sacrifice flow for unnecessary legalism.

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I guess, contemplating it further, the clause swap has the advantage of being clearer when spoken aloud

faint fjord
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The og writing seems pretty serviceable lol

nova slate
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I will say anecdotally, I've not run into any issues regarding the current wording

dusk arch
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@somber garden in regards to your question, conscripts read thusly:
Conscripts are deployed in pairs. Each has identical stats and systems,
so any modification to one applies equally to the other. RPV will give both Conscripts +5 HP

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so it essentially adds +10 overall HP to the conscript pair

somber garden
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Thankya thankya!

compact marten
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Since Conscripts tend to be really there for other to use to take damage for, that do make them pretty useful as RPV.

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Their guns aren't their strong point.

dusk arch
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I discussed that combo earlier, let me see if I can dig my notes up

# 
OP
 — 03/08/2023 6:41 PM
well it'll definitely make Cannon Fodder better since every Conscript that isn't dead is a Conscript that can take another attack for someone else, in theory
In terms of damage output Conscripts are sort of "just there" and being permanently impaired isn't going to do them any favors
so I think my concern might be that if your NPCs can't deathball, RPV conscripts might end up in a spot where they're kind of a slog to kill but also sort of ignorable
panic fire is a solid debuff and worth the cost of admission```
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tl;dr it can make them significantly more of a damage sponge, but with perma-impair on top of generally lackluster output on an individual level, players might be inclined to just ignore them

compact marten
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Yeah, at that point they pretty much just exist for that interposition ability.

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I used conscripts in the past to swarm someone with grapples like a dogpile.

dusk arch
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yeah, they'll be good at being a nuissance, it'll just be harder for them to contribute much in terms of physical threat

faint fjord
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deathball

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what is this

dusk arch
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clumping together

faint fjord
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ahhhhh

dusk arch
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conscripts get a lot of their defender juice by being next to allies so they can divert damage to themselves

faint fjord
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it's all become clear

dusk arch
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so if your NPCs aren't in a position to do that, perma-impaired conscripts run the risk of just becoming Panic Fire dispensers and little else

earnest iris
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just got done with the first mission of the game im running. one player is in a matador, and raised a good point about the core power in that since it affects Seeking weapons now, it turns off its own banderilla missiles if their clause activates, since it's obligatory Seeking (and im not sure if theres a differentiation between an attack and a weapon getting a tag)

dusk arch
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yes that player brought those concerns to me if it's the one I'm thinking of

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I'm going to think about how and/or if I want to approach it

#

It's not a bad point but I want to double-check some things

jolly elm
#

What action type is the conscript's Panic Fire?

dusk arch
#

Full

quaint beacon
#

...huh, so it is

#

I've been playing conscripts wrong this entire time oops

gray thistle
#

Your poor, poor players

ionic badger
#

oh I also thought it was a Quick, lmao

gray thistle
#

But actually... did they feel overpowering with it as a quick?

quaint beacon
#

the main thing this really changes is that my default turn was skirmish + panic fire, now it probably becomes lockon-or-boost skirmish or just panic fire depenidng on the situation

#

I did think quick action panic fire is a bit too good considering how it's no-save, no-roll, just happens +1 difficulty

#

and you get 2 of them per deployment slot

languid cosmos
#

It's good to know panic fire isn't such an immediate select after all

dusk arch
#

Man I am super tired of finding these lapses in the lcp file, this is incredibly fucking annoying (directed at no one but me to be clear)

dusk arch
#

so your tactics can be to have one use panic fire and the other lock on/skirmish, or you can have both do it but that's your whole conscript turn so to speak

rotund axle
#

Hold on Entanglement Leash on Minotaur is actually....huh

#

Mobius Anchor Immobilize into Metafold Maze stun

gray thistle
#

Yep, preeeeetty good

rotund axle
#

Yeah it's damn great

gray thistle
#

I'm, personally, totally OK with minotaur getting some nice goodies to give it more good builds

midnight moat
#

@dusk arch multiple Suldan questions

  1. for IBEJI, does a body need to be actually adjacent to another mech for you to gain its adjacency benefits? like say that mech has Scorpion Mod, or Spotter, does only one body (echo or mech) need to be adjacent to that Scorpion Mech for both bodies to gain the benefits, or does the benefits only extend to that specific body?

like if the echo is adjacent to the scorpion'd mech, but your actual main mech isn't, techers can only suffer the scorpion effects if they miss the echo and not your main mech?

  1. For Kangto core, can you reaction eject when your mech is destroyed through meltdown? Or is the eject reaction too slow and you'd have already reached the "is immediately killed" state of the meltdown before you can eject?
dusk arch
# midnight moat <@184370003892502530> multiple Suldan questions 1) for IBEJI, does a body need ...

1). You and the echo are separate characters for things which aren't related to the existence of "you" as a discrete concept, and so things like an echo posting up behind someone with Scorpion will be the allied character who benefits from its tech protection, while your main mech won't. Similarly, you can't give both parts of you cover if only one of you is behind a mech with guardian, etc

2). My ruling on this before has been "you can eject in response to meltdowns safely, you cannot from castigate"

midnight moat
#

gotcha thanks!
lmao the classic castigate clause

swift mesa
#

At this point I think castigate should have had the same rule as the Omnigun for 'can't get around this, stop it' 😛

hasty pulsar
#

hey question: is the conscript's interpose reaction the conscript using the reaction or the target being protected using the reaction?

dusk arch
#

The target

nova slate
#

Silly combo, conscripts with liminal space's blackguard(?) Twice as much using conscripts as shields!

hasty pulsar
#

I always misremember it as the conscript going "get down mr. president!"

dusk arch
#

On the one hand, the mechanical reason is that it means even stunned or jammed conscripts can be used to tank fire

hasty pulsar
#

but no you just pick them up by the scruff of the neck and hold them between you and the bullets

dusk arch
#

On the other hand, the narrative reason is that it's not the conscript interposing themselves selflessly between fire and their allies, it's them being used as shields BY their allies

#

the conscript does not actually want this

hasty pulsar
#

"Wait, why are you guys ducking?"

amber crystal
midnight moat
#

Does the Kangto refresh any 1scene abilities when it inherits it?
Like if you originally piloted an Everest and have already used Initiative this scene, and then your Everest is destroyed and you Kangto, can the Kangto still use Initiative again?

gray thistle
midnight moat
nova slate
obsidian seal
#

Just a random question. I kinda like the system, but I'm curious how often it gets used. Weapon Pod.

nova slate
#

i dont think anyone is tracking metric for usage, but no one at my table has used it yet. Then again no one on my group has chosen to use a suldan mech yet

broken hill
#

I used the tactical webbing but not the weapon pod.

rotund axle
#

Yeah, same

#

Support mechs usually have that awkward aux in their main/aux (cough Lancaster cough) so I could always use the extra 4 SP

gray thistle
gray thistle
#

The weapons stored in Weapon Pod don't cost SP until you install them, right? So say you have a Smartgun stored, you could only switch that in if the weapon(s) it replaces also cost a total of 2 SP or more or if you had some spare SP? (like a 2 SP mod installed on one of the other weapons before switching it out with a smartgun)

obsidian seal
#

I think it's really good. I think it's totally worth the SP. I just can't ever justify the license to myself. At least, not with the last couple builds I've played.

#

I wish such a general versatile system was a GMS one.

gray thistle
#

I'm just trying to figure out the best case scenario for it, which is... replacing a limited main/limited auxes? Or some utility weapon?

obsidian seal
#

Replacing with an Ordnance when you finally know you're not moving?

nova slate
#

loading weapons you never plan to reload?

gray thistle
#

then you're paying a quick instead of a full

nova slate
#

You could under invest in Engi and take two sets of limited weapons

#

nets you more HP or otehr stats

gray thistle
#

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out a good setup for this

nova slate
#

back pocketing a smart or reliable option perhaps?

gray thistle
#

Hmm

nova slate
#

alternatively, back pocketing melee options on a combined arms build?

#

questionable there

gray thistle
#

I don't think that does much

nova slate
#

usually you just keep using your ranged stuff if you can I guess

gray thistle
#

Yeah...

nova slate
#

you can replace a destroyed weapon using the pod right?

gray thistle
#

I didn't think you could?

nova slate
#

ah nvm then

#

was thinking like instead of spnding repairs, slot in a replacement from the pod

#

like the matrix "i never reload" vibe of just dropping whats broked

gray thistle
#

i think that'd be nice though

#

One of the things I was considering as well was having the Retiarius Tangler Cannon with Scrambler Rounds, with a Smartgun in the weapon pod

#

for when there's long distance/need more damage

#

But my issue there is that it's just... worse than having another mount? And if playing an everest I wouldn't really need it anway since I could fit that in normally anyway?

nova slate
#

oh could be ok if you have a utility back up, like if you need to switch to your... plasma cutters to chow through terrain, then switch back to your assault cannon?

#

pr can you not switch back, sry

#

don't have it open atm

#

cause work

languid cosmos
#

...hm

gray thistle
#

You can switch back, the old set is just stored now

languid cosmos
#

Does the ass can stay spun up when stored?

gray thistle
#

I wish it worked with main/Aux weapons too

#

Uh... TECHNICALLY?

#

Though that's silly, ofc

languid cosmos
#

Oh yeah completely ridiculous

#

And I can't think of a situation where it's more efficient to swap an ass can in and out as opposed to spinning down and back up

#

But the idea is now out there

gray thistle
#

I'm desperately trying to come up with a build right now

#

Having it work with destroyed weapon mounts would be a huge deal though

nova slate
#

itd essentially be paying SP instead of repairs

#

which isn't awful

#

especially if you have a lot of sp and not a lot of repairs

gray thistle
#

Yeah, with the side-benefit of having an alt loadout

#

and then once you've replaced your weapon(s) in the weapon pod, if you then have to destroy a system... bye bye weapon pod :p

#

Ok, if this works with destroyed weapons I'd feel a lot better about it

#

since the flexibility alone just... isn't worth it

nova slate
#

i imagine it might be more worth it if a mission forecasts big changes in environment or enemy type eh

#

specific niche instead of general

gray thistle
#

Mhm

#

Oh right, you thought the assault cannon was silly? Terashima Blade

nova slate
#

clearly the sword is in a stance not hte person <.<

gray thistle
#

I did say it was silly :p

nova slate
#

xD

dusk arch
#

okay lots of stuff going on here

dusk arch
dusk arch
dusk arch
# gray thistle The weapons stored in Weapon Pod don't cost SP until you install them, right? So...

Weapons you bring with you on a mission have to have all SP costs paid in full at the time you set out regardless of whether they're in a weapon pod or not. If you bring a spare smartgun, then that deducts 2 SP from your total whether you have it actively equipped or not, the same goes with any mods you equip on a weapon stored in the pod (per earlier discussion here #homebrew-design message)

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wise loom
#

oh, so you can't just swap a Terishima Blade for a Smartgun without having to pay for both, even if you only have a single valid mount either could be equipped to?

dusk arch
#

Correct, the weapon pod does not give you some sort of banked SP discount, if it did that I would be very explicit about it in the text

#

If you bring something with your mech on a mission, you have to pay the costs for it unless specified otherwise

gray thistle
#

Ack, that makes it even worse

midnight crypt
#

I mean what's the alternative

obsidian seal
#

Honestly, I kinda figured that.

gray thistle
#

I don't think that's a bad thing, but it sure make it worse than I thought and was already struggling to make it work

#

What about replacing broken weapons?

dusk arch
#

#1057779385027002388 message

gray thistle
#

Oops, thank you

#

In my defense I'm looking at this half awake, unable to sleep

#

I'll try to figure out some more ways to make it work nicely tomorrow, bring able to replace broken weapons Def helps. Do wish it it worked ks for main/aux weapons though, especially as so many single mount mechs have one

dusk arch
#

making it work for main/aux isn't a terrible suggestion, but it's never really been intended to enable weird SP juggling shenanigans and definitely won't be doing so at any point going forward

gray thistle
#

Oh I think it's a good thing that it doesn't, I just thought it did. It was very awkward with building around with that.

gray thistle
# 
[ LICENSES ]
  C&H SHEPHERD 1, IPS-N Tortuga 2, HA Napoleon 2, IPS-N KIDD 1
[ CORE BONUSES ]
  Auto-Stabilizing Hardpoints, Reinforced Frame
[ TALENTS ]
  Vanguard 3, HOUSE GUARD 3, Grease Monkey 3
[ STATS ]
  HULL:2 AGI:2 SYS:0 ENGI:4
  STRUCTURE:4 HP:22 ARMOR:2
  STRESS:4 HEATCAP:10 REPAIR:7
  TECH ATK:+1 LIMITED:+2
  SPD:4 EVA:8 EDEF:10 SENSE:15 SAVE:13
[ WEAPONS ]
  MAIN MOUNT: Deck-Sweeper Automatic Shotgun
  HEAVY MOUNT: Daisy Cutter // Auto-Stabilizing Hardpoints
[ SYSTEMS ]
  Weapon Pod, Personalizations, Stasis Barrier x3, Stasis Bolt, PEBCAC, Custom Paint Job```
Weapon Pod replacing Daisy Cutter occasionally to save charges and get a +1 accuracy DSAS
rotund axle
#

Weapon Pod is only 1 Main or 2 Auxes no?

gray thistle
#

It has a DSAS in it

#

but I don't see it saying it can't take a heavy in if it replaces it

rotund axle
#

I see... that's true

#

I guess we'll just have to wait for Kai's word on that

gray thistle
#

It's one of the ways things I found that actually feels good with weapon pod atm so I hope it works according to kai as well XD

dusk arch
#

no, it does not work

gray thistle
dusk arch
#

if the pod could hold a heavy weapon it would very specifically say so

gray thistle
#

well, the wording might need to be adjusted to prevent that then

#

It starts with a main or two auxes, but nothing says it can't hold a heavy once it replaces the weapon in a heavy mount

dusk arch
#

No I'm sorry, I am not changing the wording based on someone bending their interpretation of it to the point of bad faith

gray thistle
#

This isn't bad faith at all

dusk arch
#

It's kind of starting to feel like it

gray thistle
#

When you equip this system, choose two Auxiliary weapons or one Main weapon and store them within the pod.
This part is the main limiter, and it specifies "when you equip this system".

Weapons stored in this way are not equipped to your mech's mounts and may not be used to attack, nor can they be reloaded.

As a quick action you may swap the weapons stored in the pod with those equipped to one of your non-integrated mounts. All final weapon mountings and SP costs must be legal. If this system is destroyed, all weapons stored on it are disabled and inaccessible until the weapon pod is repaired.
And this part doesn't stop you from swapping the weapons from a heavy mount into the pod either.

My thinking why this was fine was; Ok, you can't be more flexible with heavy weapons so it doesn't allow you to put those in initially, but replacing a heavy with a main weapon is generally a downgrade, so there's nothing stopping you from doing that. It doesn't mean you can suddenly put that heavy on a non-heavy mount afterwards either. This is not bad faith, this is a reading of the RAW with assumptions of balance surrounding the wording. Otherwise it'd say "non-integrated, non-heavy mount" at the quick action part, or "the weapon pod can't hold heavy weapons".

This is not a bad faith reading.

rotund axle
#

It doesn't though? Seeing their reasoning I very much could see the logic

dusk arch
#

Okay well here's my answer: it doesn't work that way

gray thistle
#

Yeah that's fair, but please don't call it a bad faith reading when it's just clearly not, that's just really rude

rotund axle
#

Yeah

#

That seemed like a regular #rules-questions ask about a weird interaction, didn't at all seem like bad faith

dusk arch
#

Fine, then I will apologize to @gray thistle and say that's my fault

#

It's probably a reasonable question that I'm reading in a way that, through no fault of theirs, made me think otherwise, so that's my bad

gray thistle
#

Thanks, Kai, though I can't blame you completely. It might feel like I was being overly negative about the system? Trying to squeeze out as much as I can out of it? Which are both true, but I was trying to do so within what I thought were how it worked. :(

dusk arch
#

and that's an easy enough adjustment

rotund axle
#

Yeah, it seems like a pretty cool concept. just gotta find the right build to accomodate it

#

Tactical Webbing though fucks hard, especially now that it doesn't destroy the systems upon destruction

gray thistle
dusk arch
rotund axle
#

Yup yup

dusk arch
#

My take on the pod is that 2 SP buys you some destroyed weapon protection and some loadout flexibility, especially since people often bemoan things like hornets, invisible enemies, etc, but don't always bring an assault rifle or nexus setup

rotund axle
#

One use for it I could see is using two Limited Main weapons, swapping em around when you run out of charges, or when the opportunity seems fit

#

Oh yeah and flexibility is always good

dusk arch
#

Heavy weapon swapping is a thing I don't really want to engage with in large part because of things like the daisy cutter, which is an extremely powerful heavy weapon whose tradeoff is "you have to commit to the bit"

#

being able to recklessly dump all your daisy cutter shots and obliterate an encounter, then swap to a decksweeper is way too much juice for 2 SP

amber crystal
rotund axle
#

Yeah

swift mesa
#

Yeah, I think 'can swap heavies' pod would be more on the Core Bonus front.

#

'More Stub Cannons Than God'

rotund axle
#

Or Govardhana Micromissiles!

#

Gotta use those someday too

amber crystal
#

Also works for like Loading weapons.

#

QA to swap to another Loaded weapon instead of Stabilize.

#

Displacer to Wrap Rifle

swift mesa
#

If any of you buggers put the MOI Magician's Cane in it, I'm going to slap you for crossing the streams 😛

rotund axle
#

Yeah a 1/scene External Ammo Feed without the heat cost seems like a pretty good use

gray thistle
amber crystal
rotund axle
amber crystal
#

Also pretty good if you want to go with the fantasy of a melee frame switching sword mid fight.

#

Esp on an one-mounter.

swift mesa
#

I can see a lot of use for it with Good Loading Weapons, yeah.

gray thistle
#

Electroplasma Shield

rotund axle
#

YEAH YEAH

#

Electroplasma Shield my beloved

viral wave
#

Ordnance weapons stored until they become useful

swift mesa
amber crystal
#

Start with Catalytic Hammer, swap to another melee weapon after hammering someone in the face.

swift mesa
#

Sniper mech putting a Catalytic Hammer in the box.

rotund axle
amber crystal
rotund axle
#

All Catalytic Hammers all the way down

swift mesa
amber crystal
#

lol

#

Kinetic Driver for when you feel like someone's gonna punch you in the face.

gray thistle
#

Compcon and not playing nice with mods caused the way it's set up :p

rotund axle
#

Like putting mods in the Weapon Pod?

gray thistle
#

Ah, sorry, this is about the potentia cane not being an integrated weapon in compcon

dusk arch
#

yeah but also that

#

or using any of the shepherd license at all

swift mesa
#

But yes, no crossing streams and I do think 2 SP is very nice for 1/scene reload a loading main.

#

Or the other fancy uses of it.

amber crystal
#

Even Suldan there's also Remote Targeting Relay

rotund axle
#

I think my main way of using it would be to double up on the amount of Limited weapons

swift mesa
#

The thing that used to be a weapon and wishes it still was a bit with that is that big single shot anti-mech rocket of Kai's.

rotund axle
#

Get more of that sweet Grease Monkey 1 bang per buck

gray thistle
#

Hmm, Displacer Lich with Weapon Pod for the times you want to attack and not blow your immortality

dusk arch
#

anyway for now the assumption going forward can be that the pod can store 2 aux or up to 1 main + 1 aux

rotund axle
rotund axle
amber crystal
quaint beacon
#

Goalkeeper is unique right like I'm not on crack

dusk arch
#

There's no reason for it not to work with main/aux mounts

amber crystal
quaint beacon
#

Or are you just saying for swapping after it's out of juice

amber crystal
#

just more ammo

dusk arch
#

yeah I think the idea is you dump loading weapons and then swap them out

rotund axle
dusk arch
#

or limited ones

#

etc

amber crystal
#

For something with a limited amount of mount that's going to be nice.

dusk arch
rotund axle
#

More power to Mourning Cloak baybee

amber crystal
#

Like Tortuga with Cat Hammer swapping out for the DSAS

dusk arch
#

in case you want to swap to a full nexus suite from assault rifle/missile rack or something

amber crystal
#

Now Tortuga can actually use all the weapons in its license.

rotund axle
gray thistle
#

Calendula with Centimane for ranged options? HMM

rotund axle
#

Just gonna swap it out with a different limited weapon

swift mesa
rotund axle
#

The poor man's Type-96 Shield Gun lol

swift mesa
#

I think part of it is that we often look at Limited Weapons as 'if you've got all the shit to make More Limited Charges'

#

A big use I can see for this is that 2 SP is really cheap for a weapon to go from like 3 limited to 6 limited

#

If you're not an Engineering Hog

quaint beacon
#

Yeah weapon pod is definitely real good on the lim weapon spam

#

Govardhana DW real

swift mesa
#

Please no cross streams. I slap you 😛

dusk arch
#

generally speaking I tend to have my limited use stuff end up unique which means there's no way to, like, double-stack electroplasma shields or something

rotund axle
#

Weapon Pod Govardhana Micromissiles x4 😌

dusk arch
#

so you'd have to find a couple of different things to incorporate

#

(aux weapons being the exception because they sort of have to be)

amber crystal
rotund axle
#

I just remembered I should make a Limited System/Weapon focused Striker soon lol

quaint beacon
rotund axle
#

Weapon Pod would be on brand to be on a Kallarani though

quaint beacon
#

I think everyone knows the ESU Morg memes though

swift mesa
rotund axle
#

And Iridia!

#

Now that's 3 times the amount of Brace bullshit

#

Anyways yeah me and Ferrin are the reasons you shouldn't mix homebrew too much lol

amber crystal
dusk arch
amber crystal
#

So you can do it even with just one mount.

quaint beacon
#

I could see the Clover being an issue with the brace IA system from Pesi yeah

dusk arch
#

like that was the tipping point?

amber crystal
#

Not really

#

It's just 2 more damage .

#

if you take more heat.

#

otherwise it's just more invasion option.

quaint beacon
#

It's more than that as it lets Morg hit more heat cap breakpoints on a lot more NPCs which means they get exposed before you deal your damage to them

rotund axle
#

Well I do know one thing that might be slightly broken when mixing homebrew

image.png
#

Yeah it uh, don't do this lmao

swift mesa
#

Every Status Effect Ever.

rotund axle
#

I'm an professional homebrew mixer don't do this without guidance

quaint beacon
#

the main thing is also that morg is also, like, probably already the strongest mech in limspace and it really doesn't need more help

swift mesa
rotund axle
#

Morgana has teeth?

dusk arch
#

I actually know the answer to this

#

the morgana does, what, energy damage?

rotund axle
#

Yeah

swift mesa
#

Yeah

quaint beacon
#

is it "make it burn"

#

lmao

dusk arch
#

shoulda been burn, baby

swift mesa
#

Potentially, yeah

dusk arch
#

that's why system crusher is the way that it is

quaint beacon
#

unironically it'd be a sizable nerf, though I'm certain a lot of people would see it as a buff

dusk arch
#

but I can also see-

quaint beacon
#

I could get behind it though

dusk arch
#

yeah, it's a HUGE nerf

#

I do appreciate the "expose, then damage" trick

#

the breakpoints thing makes sense I guess, and I want to be 100% fair to ikiryo, he got to the morgana first and ESU was a latecomer

amber crystal
#

Burning Morgana does seem on brand.

ionic badger
#

Tbh, I still kinda feel that if a single extra heat thing breaks the Morgana, then the balance was a bit too fragile in the first place there

swift mesa
#

Yeah, if I ever got a chance to tinker with something LS it would likely be making the Morgana do Burn instead of Energy Damage.

#

But sadly Book Already Out.

#

This kids is why you don't do physical copies 😛

quaint beacon
#

this isn't the limspace thread but tbh having playtested it and gmed for it morg as-is is Extremely Strong But Honestly Fine And Has Counterplay, it's just tokugawa that does hack stuff in exchange for not being able to break LoS parity over its knee

rotund axle
#

Just rewrite the past Iki

quaint beacon
#

but yeah, the balance is on a razor thin line for her

rotund axle
#

You can do that right

rotund axle
quaint beacon
#

this whole thing is kind of moot because, again, don't cross the streams

dusk arch
#

I've heard in general that for the most part liminal space and suldan play fine together

amber crystal
#

Yeh I run Liminal Space + Suldan.

quaint beacon
#

for the most part yeah, just a few outliers

dusk arch
#

I know gatesec allows both, I thiiiiiink with a morgana/ESU restriction

viral wave
#

but what if crossing the streams results in Bigger Numbers

amber crystal
#

It's been fine, and honestly if something breaks I'll just clamp down on it.

swift mesa
#

I've heard the same but I can't promice anything as I'm not an expert in Suldan and Kai's not an expert in LS.

quaint beacon
#

my playgroup as a whole has a "we allow basically everything but you get One Homebrew Source for your individual build, stick to it" clause

dusk arch
#

I need to get some breathing room and follow ikiryo's footsteps and just publish the fuckin thing and then we can read each others' stuff

viral wave
#

What if crossing the streams gets thr whole party free ice cream and puppies and disbands thr FCA

amber crystal
#

lol

swift mesa
#

The big weakness of the Morgana was always supposed to be 'Arcing Tech Attacks Don't Exist and you have to expose yourself to do the scary stuff' 😛

amber crystal
#

I don't mind crossing the stream.

swift mesa
#

So Mr Assault can Bean You In The Face

amber crystal
#

although my players themselves hadn't really been doing it that much themselves.

swift mesa
#

(but a drop to sensors 12 might have helped that weakness be more notable)

quaint beacon
#

frankly one of the grossest things in limspace is with official content anyway

#

superheavy zou yan babey yes I would like to nuke this area with a siege cannon and auto-miss all my buddies

swift mesa
#

In my defense: That core bonus didn't exist 😛

quaint beacon
#

oh yeah I can't blame you for that one

swift mesa
#

So 'I can choose to automatically miss allies but I only have a Main Mount' wasn't quite as crazy then 😛

dusk arch
#

same

#

I can't bring myself to superheavy CB proof everything

#

it is what it is, people can have the leviathan charioteer

amber crystal
#

Yeh.

quaint beacon
#

leviathan charioteer is pretty funny but also like

you could just run double DSAS or a smartblade or something

amber crystal
#

Dustgrave is the one official content I straight up don't allow on my campaign.

rotund axle
#

Because of Homebrew?

amber crystal
#

I'd rather to see the homebrew stream cross than use Dustgrave. 😔

#

No, because I don't gel with the design space it's trying to fit itself into, and even in Core I don't like the vibe of Superheavy Goblin.

#

Annihilation Nexus Kidd is also a pretty bad offender.

rotund axle
#

I mean, it's been playtested enough to the point where it's been released, but it's not my campaign so I can't say much

amber crystal
#

I feel like the design concept being an issue, is a harder issue to fix than number/damage type tweaks.

#

With the latter I can just write an errata and slap it into my campaign's announcement channel.

rotund axle
#

The design concept?

amber crystal
#

Yeah, Superheavy CB as a concept, vs Morgana/ESU being fixed by a damage type change.

#

I also don't gel with any of Dustgrave's Talents or NPC contents, so there's that too.

rotund axle
#

I

#

I see I guess

#

Not even Storte or Viceroy?

amber crystal
#

Nah, they're not interesting enough to me.

#

Viceroy is just Tortuga with Launchers.

drowsy coyote
amber crystal
#

But that's for another channel.

swift mesa
#

I will say: This is very much a channel for Kai's work so if you want to bitch about things I'd lean a bit more towards that. We don't want this becoming a Duskgrave Grumping Channel.

amber crystal
#

I feel like Suldan brings a lot more interesting frame concepts here.

#

One of my players' been talking about their Gajasura Bruiser build.

quaint beacon
#

gajasura fucks so hard

#

it's unironically one of my favorite mechs

#

I dmed kai a lot of builds for it when it was in playtest lmao

amber crystal
#

It's also got a Jager Kunst 2

#

So they said they can do like 5-6 attacks.

#

I'm gonna just give a Champion Goliath with Near-Threat Denial System and dare them to fight to death.

rotund axle
#

TBH my fav build doesn't even mix any homebrew, it's just Core and Suldan

amber crystal
#

I like how Gajasura's core is just so simple and to the point.

#

"Make another attack."

quaint beacon
#

gajasura with unicomp

rotund axle
#

It's LL12 but Mourning Cloak with Variable Sword and both Sekhmet and Artemis, and Duelist, Bruiser, Gladiator, and Blade Dancer fucks

quaint beacon
#

local man too angry to die

rotund axle
#

Who doesn't love doing an average of 70+ damage per turn

#

It dies if you hit it more than once with a tech attack but that's my allies' problem

dusk arch
#

and then beat myself out with the Kangto

amber crystal
rotund axle
#

It came to them in a dream

amber crystal
#

Wow, it must've been quite the creativity boost.

dusk arch
#

and I thought "wouldn't it be wild if I just made a titanfall core bonus so you could literally summon another replacement mech"

#

which then mutated into "no wait, even better"

swift mesa
#

I get the feeling it started with people Grumping about 'I lost my mech battle 2, I didn't have 4 repairs left and now I'm just sitting there'

#

Hah, I was right!

amber crystal
#

Oh, no, I meant, how'd you come with Boost as the Core Power?

quaint beacon
#

god damnit I forgot about the kangto

#

now I feel bad about my own homebrew lmao

#

which literally has an oc loop mech with core power: protocol stabilize, efficient

dusk arch
#

oh lmao, I wanted it to have an efficient core power that was simple and universal regardless of what the parent mech had been that anyone could use

#

and everyone loves a free boost

amber crystal
#

Fair lol

#

It does give it a 'stripped down Everest Core' vibe

gray thistle
#

The kangto is so nice, another tool to make you need less hull

swift mesa
#

As a lot of newer players tend to monofocus 'kill enemies' over 'do objectives', making the second chance mech a good Objective Rusher (nearly used malifaux slang for that job) helps promote 'you can help contribute to the battle but using it just as Second Murder chance isn't always the best use of it'

gray thistle
#

Also nice after you dump all of your limited systems

dusk arch
swift mesa
#

Hahahahah

#

Jaeger Kunst 2 into that nonsense for when you want to finish a 100 space extraction mission turn 1.

#

But at that point you might as well order an ACME slingshot for how you're getting yourself places.

drowsy coyote
#

Gaja with the anti-cav and asura sounds so evil lol

gray thistle
#

I like gaja with the shield gun, focusing more on its main weapon

languid cosmos
#

Kangto is another point for a funny ls/Suldan interaction, tbh

#

A kangto Rasputin can take Nesting Doll as its trait and super never worry about structure damage beyond hp loss

swift mesa
#

Please no, no nesting doll in nesting doll.

languid cosmos
#

I do love kangto as a concept and in its execution, it’s a great backup mech

#

And having an inherited trait is a great way to personalize its feel

gray thistle
#

But yeah, I enjoy LS Suldan mixing

#

It's generally in a safe spot

nova slate
#

You know, my player in their ptolemy sure wishes he has kangto during this combat

#

Actually weird question that's more lore wise. What's the kangto vaguely look like? Is it more form fit or kind of like the Ironman suit in the briefcase?

#

Or is it much more exoskeletony

dusk arch
#

GMS doesn't really do form-fitting stuff imo, that's much more of an SSC aesthetic

#

It's definitely more on the "this is a size 1/2 mech" scale, and I don't envision it as being collapsible so much as being a thing which has to have the core of your mech engineered around it. In a number of respects, the Kangto is something like a replacement cockpit

nova slate
#

Ahhhh ok so it's almost like a very extensive modification to the construction of your frame

dusk arch
#

Yeah, it's s serious overhaul and it kind of only works as easily as it does because it's GMS doing it

nova slate
#

Sounds expensiiive like getting a roll cage installed in a sedan or something. Good thing we got good organizational benefits or are making that Lancer manna

rotund axle
#

Me when I exit my Atlas in a Kangto and end up bigger than I started

nova slate
#

Gms all like "bet you're glad it's all modular now huh" during the install

#

The lead engineer be like "man these Alan wrenches really do go far"

#

Oh my God, the kangto comes with Ikea install instructions

broken hill
#

I imagine with large mechs the whole cockpit shoots out and just unfolds limbs into a super deformed version of the original frame.

rotund axle
#

With size 1/2 frames the exterior armor just explodes off as you dash forwards through the smoke

nova slate
#

Inadvertently, this means that the vlad even more solidly engages with Gurren Lagann if you take the drill and kangto

rotund axle
#

Oh god Sheavy Mounting Kangto lmao

languid cosmos
#

I picture the Kangto as just a Lego CCBS skeleton tbh

Let me see if I can find a good picture

#

Something like this that you just attach armor panels and such to

9d5q00ej0xf91.jpg
obsidian seal
#

Kangto always made me think an Acguy popping out a Gelgoog.

#

You double-take at the audacity of this little thing popping out a superior suit, and then it decks you for underestimating it, 'cause the suit is actually not bad.

nova slate
#

GMS don't miss!

#

never gonna catch the OG lacking with their products

drifting eagle
#

.

eager cedar
#

if the Pesilat's core bonus is active, does Executioner 3 start working with its improvised attacks(when it normally wouldn't because they have no threat range)

chilly plover
#

It would work regardless of core, threat defaults to 1 if none is listed
As long as something is near enough, they can be whacked (and hacked)

ionic badger
#

that's correct for weapons, but Improvised Attacks don't have a threat by default

#

it's just adjacent

#

but yes in core they have threat, so you can Exec 3

#

because Exec 3 just says melee attack in general

eager cedar
#

that's about what I expected

faint fjord
final forum
#

Can someone help give me like, a 1 sentence rundown of each specialty frame, if that would be okay?
Im struggling to process/understand them, a bit, haha, and ive no clue why

#

That would be Pointman, Vigil, Overlord, sparrowhawk, micromonarch, myrmidon, Logos, Thirdeye, bunraku, spitfire, foundry, downwell, shepard, talwar, and mantle

#

(even if you just have some of them)

gray thistle
#

Those aren't frames, just licences. There's no mech associated with them

final forum
#

The category is called in book, "specialty Frames", thats why i mentioned that term, sorry if im a bit confused by it

gray thistle
#

Specialty licences work a bit differently than normal licences, they come in 3 tiers, either 1, 2, or 3, and all just have 2 items in them, either 2 systems, weapons, or a combination of the two.

#

Specialty Licences I'm fairly sure? checks again

final forum
#

i may have misread, lol

#

that would be on me

final forum
#

i appreciate it

gray thistle
#

I'd recommend reading the page where it explains how they work

#

but basically

final forum
#

i did, i just sometimes have trouble processing large blocks of text without images

#

which is why i appreciate the help

#

i do understand i need a certain number of liscence levels in a certain company to even take one, and sometimes meet other prereqs too when needed

gray thistle
#

You can take a Rank 1 specialty licences whenever instead of any normal license. To take a Rank 2 specialty license, you need rank 1 of any other license of that corp. To take a rank 3 specialty license, you need Rank 2 of any other license of that corp

final forum
#

yeaa ok i do understand that part then! perfect

#

awesome

gray thistle
#

Enjoy ^^

final forum
#

thank you for helping out!

obsidian seal
#

I kinda wish that Liminal and other books might borrow the idea to do more material without having to go whole-cloth on needing to design several frames.

#

Specialty License is just a good idea in how to create more specialized systems and weapons.

#

Aside from Exotics.

gray thistle
#

Yeah, and allows for more mixing and matching while still requiring investment

obsidian seal
#

Exotics still sits on the fence with me, especially without how adventures are written.

#

"Only get it, if you go this route, or have to complete this secondary objective, etc, etc."

swift mesa
#

(That and Speciality Licences are something Kai Invented, it would be weird to just take them)

gray thistle
#

(just ask him!)

obsidian seal
#

Yeah.

gray thistle
#

Such a good idea, I really love to see it everywhere

swift mesa
#

That and...I want to write frames. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to design frames.

obsidian seal
#

Then that's fine. My statement was not something to say I think it's bad to do so.

gray thistle
#

There's not, obviously. But I think a few specialty licences for a manufacturer can help a lot :3

swift mesa
#

yes but that circles back around to 'I'd feel weird taking someone else's design work'. If I'm making something I want it to be Entirely Mine.

gray thistle
#

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, you do you. Just that I love it when I do see it in other places.

obsidian seal
#

Honestly, I feel this too, concerning PF2e stuff? It depends.

#

So I do not blame you. It depends.

final forum
# swift mesa yes but that circles back around to 'I'd feel weird taking someone else's design...

Yeah I feel like if I'm making something that is related to someone else's work I want to get full permission and I want it to honor and build off of the work instead of just lifting the base idea.

Otherwise I might as well just make something that's my own

Not to say that other people making specialty licenses would be just lifting the idea, it's a pretty versatile concept, but I do completely understand your sentiment

dusk arch
#

I will say, just to clarify, that I'm cool with it if people want to make specialty licenses of their own

#

but I also understand the desire to not start pulling from other peoples' stuff

opaque crane
hasty pulsar
#

TBH while I think specialty Licenses are Very Cool conceptually, I also kind of don't like them super much as a player? it's like, a vibes problem and not any actual problem with them as designed, but they feel like sacrificing progression for something you can only sort of maybe use.

#

Which is why I prefer to stick with Exotics because if I just want One Weird Thing, I can do that as an exotic instead of attaching an entire LL as a tax.

midnight crypt
#

Sacrificing progression how?

languid cosmos
#

an LL spent on a specialty license is an LL not spent on a mech license, i believe is their thinking

viral wave
#

Most relevant if you want Level 3 licenses

midnight crypt
#

I guess, but I do think that's a reductive way of looking at it

#

Like if you're going for a rank 3 licence of course you're not getting a Specialty

#

The point is to give options and alternatives

hasty pulsar
#

Oh yeah

gray thistle
#

As a player, exotics are also not as approachable and available. Specialty licences you can expect to get access to and be able to plan around if that homebrew is allowed.

Specialty licences also come in multiple ranks, the third of which is, well, rank 3. You're just working towards it through taking 2 ranks in any other license of that manufacturer.

hasty pulsar
#

I understand this intellectually

south narwhal
#

A Tortuga with Dipping Swallow Module would get +1 accuracy on the improvised attack from bracing, correct?

gray thistle
hasty pulsar
#

The problem is it feels like I'm giving up a normal level

#

There's a reason I specified it's a vibes problem!

#

Objectively speaking they are fine

gray thistle
#

Most of the time I don't care about the frame a license comes from once I have my target frame already, so any license is just a specialty license with extra steps at that point. Taking just 1 level in a non-specialty license is also no different to just taking a specialty license either

hasty pulsar
#

I will say, part of this may be because I've only ever managed to breach LL4 in a game once

#

So I'm used to a very tight ll budget

gray thistle
#

It's something that makes me love it even more at low LL games as it offers more flexibility as to which rank 3 you want; you can go 2 in any license to get the frame, and then decide to either take the specialty rank 3 (or 2), or the 3rd rank of the license you already went for. There are a lot of toys that can afford a higher budget when in a rank 3 specialty license than in any rank 1 generic license.

Also at this point I should make it clear that I'm not trying to convince you, just relaying my own love for this system in those scenarios you mention! xD

dusk arch
#

Specialty licenses can be used as part of normal progression and are balanced around that (which is to say that level 3 specialty licenses are designed around the assumed opportunity cost of reaching the point where you can take one) but they can also just be used as additional rewards

#

more than once it's come up "gosh it would be nice if there was a big catalogue of exotic gear to give people instead of it being sprinkled here and there throughout modules" and, ta-da

opaque crane
#

I know my GM did that at one point. Did specialty licenses as "sponsor rewards" for fulfilling conditions in a Sports League game.

fervent zodiac
#

Hey, question, is the Titan supposed to ever count as more than one NPC without a template?

dusk arch
compact marten
#

Titan is huge and is an artillery, potential for big damage, but I've often found that players see 'MECH BIG, MECH DIE FIRST' and do just that.

#

It's just a NPC.

languid cosmos
#

it does have the note that you only have one in a fight, like the sergeant, which combines with its size and the way it affects the battlefield to make it feel like a Big Boss Enemy, so i can see why it feels like it should count for two or more

#

but at the end of the day, nah, it's not multiple npcs of budget unless you make it that way

trim moon
#

if a sentry drone equips a kraul rifle and hits does the drone get the ability to make the reaction or do you

dusk arch
trim moon
#

thanks!

nova slate
#

Non mechanical, but in narrative I could see playing up the kraul rifle line connected to the harpoon to bounce into an "and then" series if checks

waxen cedar
#

what's the funkiest thing you can slap on a sentry drone?

nova slate
#

Probably a beat box with some nu jazz playing

languid cosmos
#

right about now? the funk soul brother

south narwhal
#

Magnetic cannon.

rotund axle
#

if you take stress from Gladiator 3 does that happen before or after the Signature Attack?

dusk arch
#

My understanding of heat costs is that weapons with Heat (Self) X occur post-attack and everything else happens immediately

broken hill
#

The wording of Gladiator 3 is "by taking 1d6+1 heat" which is the overcharge wording, which is immediate heat before the action. It wouldn't take much to clarify it with an "immediately" or "after the attack."

tall oak
#

if I take Metafold Shunt and Dipping Swallow Module, can I brace, do the metafold shunt jump, then make the improvised attack?

#

I'm not super sure on the wording of each system

#

like does "as part of a brace" happen before "immediately"

wise loom
#

I believe that's an intended interaction

gray thistle
#

You can, and it's glorious

tall oak
#

sweet, thanks

drowsy coyote
#

I wonder who does that combo best

#

Nap, pestilat or WW

tall oak
#

probably pesilat what with the improvised attack thing I guess?

rotund axle
#

WW and Nap get more out of the Brace itself though

#

Nap gets the extra bonus of not roasting from the 4 heat

tall oak
#

true

quaint beacon
#

note that you can't invade with an off-turn improvised attack with pesilat, as it's a free action and you can only take free actions on your own turn

#

so the only real synergy with pesilat is 1) muscle-tracer haptics, if you for some reason didn't IA on your own turn, and 2) you definitely have brawler 2

tall oak
#

huh right you are, didn't know free actions were only on your turn

ionic badger
#

reactions are the only thing you can do off-turn

#

and triggers that aren't action themselves of course

gray thistle
#

I feel napoleon would be the easiest to build with it since you have a much higher heat cap, though WW with a ton of engineering would do very well with it. Pesilat is a nice choice if you want to get some other licences next to it, or some non-GMS core bonuses

broken hill
#

Pesilat also gets a lot of juice from the other part of Efreet 2, Entanglement Leash.

amber crystal
#

Efreet Pesilat is quite brutal.

rotund axle
#

Lotta heat though

dusk arch
#

All of the brace augments, corebook and suldan, can be combined together, yes

#

one of lancer's general rules is that when two or more things belonging to one person happen at the same time, you decide the order of operations

#

you could stack reactive weave on there too

keen helm
#

Anyone know if the Line from the Apex Nexus can be pointed in whatever direction you want? Or does it have to fire in the same direction as the Range from your mech?

midnight crypt
#

its any direction you want

drowsy coyote
#

Would you say the tempest charged blade is generally stronger than the tetsubo ?

#

I’d prefer to use the tetsubo but the TCB seems just so strong

gray thistle
#

Tetsubo has a pretty great aoe option

midnight crypt
#

The TCB is reliable, but the Tetsubo has the AoE option and if you like gambling you can just delete people

#

I guarantee it'll be more fun

swift mesa
#

The Tetsubo also bypasses one of the biggest 'Ah crap' of attacking: Jammed.

#

As if you stop being able to identify targets, just Spin To Win

gray thistle
#

Big swish swoosh

#

I feel they're definitely close enough, with pros and cons

ionic badger
#

Tetsubo is a highroll weapon, just like the Macahuitl too
Does have the upside of the aoe action, which can be helpful occasionally

Tempest is just generically good, it does exactly what it says on the tin

drowsy coyote
#

The TCB being AP is pretty appealing for backswing cut as well

gray thistle
#

It's better with executioner in general, yeah

drowsy coyote
#

Yeah though choice

ebon reef
#

hey, so I'm running a campaign that allows FGtS and some of my players are running Suldan frames so how do I deal with a Sagittarius, Kalista or Gajasura? They also have Kangto. They outclass my other players core mechs. Please advise.

gray thistle
#

Gajasura hates heat, so witches. Area of effect works great vs hidden enemies, and Kalista doesn't like corners or heat

hasty pulsar
#

they shouldn't be outclassing core mechs except in the specialties they have, and the core mechs should have their own specialties

gray thistle
#

That too

left vine
#

i mean, kalista seems like a fiarly standard melee striker so i can defo see it out competing stuff like balor, blackbeard etc

hasty pulsar
#

you might wanna sit down with the group about party comp and roles and stuff

#

Kallista is a big slow melee bruiser, to which the closest core equivalent is... Balor?

#

but even then they're fairly distinct, and I don't think Kallista would outclass Balor unless something jank is going on

left vine
#

from my experiance playing both

#

kalista does outclass balor HARD

hasty pulsar
#

oh?

gray thistle
#

Eh, kalista can be whittled down and easier to overheat, and harder to move around with than the balor even

#

It's especially annoying to get hit by random invades with the kalista, which is less annoying as the balor since they're much less likely to land

ebon reef
#

The Kallista in question has put a few points into Engineering so it's fairly difficult to stress them fast enough before they can destroy the witch

gray thistle
#

they still only have an e-defense of 6, which means basically all tech attacks are going to hit them. They do more than just heat

left vine
#

they're both meant to sorta be this immortal heavy striker thing, both the balor and kalista are really easy to microwave with the bonuses npcs like witches and hornets have

#

also its much easier to turn off a balor than a kalista since sometimes the balor just gets stuck in a death spiral if it just keeps taking damage

gray thistle
#

Yeah, balor has to deal with that sometimes, but the kalista will have a harder time with movement and tech attackers.

#

pros and cons to both

left vine
#

sabr engies tend to mean the kalista doesn't need to deal with movement so much

#

and tiger claws + tetsubo fa means you dont need to worry about jam

gray thistle
#

Now we're talking about whole builds

#

Anyway, I've said my piece why I think the Balor is on par with the kalista

warped cairn
#

If I’m not wrong, that was the intention from the beginning, no?

#

the original poster was asking for help with balance in their specific game

gray thistle
#

We don't know what builds they have though. The other thing they said was that they felt stronger than core frames

warped cairn
#

ah

#

fair enough

warped cairn
gray thistle
#

And also what made them stand out compared to the others, what are the others playing?

ebon reef
#

here it is

# 
-- C&H KALISTA @ LL4 --
[ LICENSES ]
  C&H KALISTA 2, SSC COMET 1, C&H MANTLE 1
[ CORE BONUSES ]
  Overpower Caliber
[ TALENTS ]
  PANKRATI 3, Executioner 2, Nuclear Cavalier 2
[ STATS ]
  HULL:2 AGI:0 SYS:0 ENGI:4
  STRUCTURE:4 HP:18 ARMOR:2
  STRESS:4 HEATCAP:9 REPAIR:9
  TECH ATK:-2 LIMITED:+2
  SPD:3 EVA:6 EDEF:6 SENSE:5 SAVE:12
[ WEAPONS ]
  MAIN MOUNT: Electroplasma Shield
  MAIN MOUNT: Tiger Claws
  HEAVY MOUNT: Macuahuitl Chainsword // Overpower Caliber
[ SYSTEMS ]
  SABR Engines x3, Repair Paste Capillaries x4, Personalizations, Armament Redundancy
ebon reef
gray thistle
#

Yeah that seems like a solid build. Doesn't seem over the top though

ebon reef
#

for comparison

#

here's the other striker in the party

# 
-- IPS-N Blackbeard @ LL4 --
[ LICENSES ]
  IPS-N Blackbeard 3, IPS-N Vlad 1
[ CORE BONUSES ]
  Sloped Plating
[ TALENTS ]
  Brutal 3, Executioner 3, Duelist 1
[ STATS ]
  HULL:2 AGI:4 SYS:0 ENGI:0
  STRUCTURE:4 HP:18 ARMOR:2
  STRESS:4 HEATCAP:4 REPAIR:6
  TECH ATK:-2 LIMITED:+0
  SPD:7 EVA:12 EDEF:6 SENSE:5 SAVE:12
[ WEAPONS ]
  FLEX MOUNT: Chain Axe
  MAIN MOUNT: Impact Lance
  HEAVY MOUNT: Nanocarbon Sword
[ SYSTEMS ]
  SEKHMET-Class NHP, Reinforced Cabling, Synthetic Muscle Netting
gray thistle
#

with the limited charges and no agility longer missions will hurt, or with enemies spread out more, they're going to have a bad time

midnight crypt
#

The difference is all in the build here, ngl

gray thistle
#

This blackbeard didn't invest into engineering, so easy to melt. The high agility investment isn't really needed on a blackbeard since they have a lot of speed already, and with sekhmet would waste a lot of that regardless. Their core bonus is also focused on keeping them alive rather than more damage like the kalista, but that's not a bad thing on its own, but does contribute to feeling outclassed

#

Yep

midnight crypt
#

The Kallista player has just built significantly more optimised than the BB has

#

It's not really the frame, imo

ebon reef
#

fair enough

gray thistle
#

One thing to note though

#

the BB player could grapple the kalista player to move them around very fast

left vine
#

Or visa versa

gray thistle
#

which solves one of their weaknesses once the charges run out

left vine
#

Since the kalista has sbar

gray thistle
#

Well, no, the kalista is slow as hell and can't boost while grappling :p

#

Can't fly while carrying more than 1/2 size worth of stuff

left vine
#

True true

ebon reef
# 
-- C&H SAGITTARIUS @ LL4 --
[ LICENSES ]
  C&H SAGITTARIUS 2, SSC ATLAS 2
[ CORE BONUSES ]
  Kangto Endochassis
[ TALENTS ]
  Guerrilla 3, Infiltrator 3, Crack Shot 1
[ STATS ]
  HULL:0 AGI:6 SYS:0 ENGI:0
  STRUCTURE:4 HP:10 ARMOR:0
  STRESS:4 HEATCAP:5 REPAIR:2
  TECH ATK:0 LIMITED:+0
  SPD:8 EVA:18 EDEF:8 SENSE:15 SAVE:12
[ WEAPONS ]
  Integrated: Blackjacket Combat Bow
  FLEX MOUNT: Assault Rifle
[ SYSTEMS ]
  INKWELL Adaptive Paint, Personalizations, JÄGER KUNST I, MULTI-GEAR MANEUVER SYSTEM, Type-3 Projected Shield, Custom Paint Job

Can you help me figure out how to not let the Sagittarius run over my encounters then?

#

because I can almost never hit it

gray thistle
#

So, this BB will shine in longer missions after SABR charges have been used up, or even in encounters with multiple enemies. (BB player can drag enemies together for the kalista to clobber too)

It will also be more durable against enemies more focused on evasion, or tighter spaces, especially with a lot of clutter or difficult terrain

gray thistle
#

their 10 Hp will melt, especially with smart attacks

ebon reef
#

a lot of the AoE stuff is often arcing so the Sagi is treated as invis for a lot of it

#

and if they're behind any decent cover they can still dish out lots of damage with crackshot Blackjacket while having like +3 difficulty against evasion 18 often times with invis on top

gray thistle
#

A few Search checks with spare actions and invades/smart attacks would work too

#

some save attacks with blasts (grenades)

midnight crypt
#

Also, Cataphracts

gray thistle
#

No, that's mean

left vine
#

After some time tho

gray thistle
#

No bully

midnight crypt
#

Hiding no longer matters if you flank and Cataphracts are the best at doing that

left vine
#

Having cataphracts and witches in every encounter would be pretty boring

gray thistle
#

I'm not saying witches

left vine
#

I think they’re asking for like general tips on dealing with those two

midnight crypt
#

I'm also not saying include both in every encounter

#

But they're an option

ebon reef
gray thistle
#

Hives are also pretty good

summer crag
#

Yeah it sounds like a lot of the answers to it are difficult to pull off

hasty pulsar
#

Briar has a point that anything suffienctly mobile to keep them in LoS will be tricky for them

gray thistle
#

But honestly, it's a lottery against that mech. If you do find them with search, they're almost guaranteed to be dead

hasty pulsar
#

Cataphracts are obvious, but also things like Ace, Hornet, or Operator

errant torrent
#

is this a good time to mention that mass driver has a typo

gray thistle
#

Oh right, Scout would be mean as well

ionic badger
ebon reef
gray thistle
#

Don't need lock on, the Full Action alone is enough to kill them

ionic badger
#

Rainmakers especially have a bunch of systems that just deal damage without needing to target or attack

#

though Hades Missiles fuck up almost everyone really

gray thistle
#

10 Hp low repair cap especially

south narwhal
#

How does the Apex Nexus work? Does the line have to go out, or can it be in any direction?

hasty pulsar
#

I ran a rainmaker with hades missiles last sunday and never actually got to use them

ionic badger
hasty pulsar
#

because they saw the players saw it an immediately went "it must die, now"

ebon reef
#

I'll try some of these things out and see how well they work. Thanks for your help guys.

ionic badger
quaint beacon
gray thistle
#

But basically, the sagi is extremely specialized, but has some really feelsbad counters to it, though they're rare. They can just randomly get screwed though regardless with some bad rolls.

quaint beacon
#

range + cone works the same way

hasty pulsar
#

can confirm, you can just completely whiff a save even with a +6 to a roll sometimes

quaint beacon
#

I spent an entire sitrep bullying the shit out of a 0 hull 6 agi sagi player with one conscript pair with their rocket launcher optional

barren helm
#

I mean, my go-to for mechs that feel too strong in combat has been "when in doubt, make them run". Or if it's a high movement build, make them guard something. Sitreps can hide many sins.

dusk arch
#

To start with, one of the top-down points for any "how do I challenge my party" question regardless of which particular mechs they're using is to force them to play the objective. Sitreps and map design do a lot to challenge mechs and builds that might otherwise be perfectly content to deathmatch all day long. The Kalista and the Gajasura are both low speed, large footprint frames. This means that by default they don't cross as much map per turn, and it also means they can run the risk of more easily getting caught up on obstructions that they can't cleanly move fully past, since even if larger mechs can cross through obstructions, they can't stop their movement overlapping with them. Large size and slow speed are factors that compound each other. The Kalista specifically also has a further movement restriction with its Lumbering trait.

Maps and objectives that require mobility and positional variability are therefore ways you can look at immediately applying pressure to them. Slow, Immobilize, and Prone are ways to further compound these drawbacks. Neither mech has Heavy Frame, which means forced movement is on the table. Both mechs have low e-defense and modest heat capacity, so tech attacks are an obvious source for both applied heat and further debuffs. The Kalista license is built for close-range combat, though strictly speaking nothing really prevents you from using it as a longer ranged platform, though the Gajasura is much more melee-forward, and so being able to lock their already limited mobility down can essentially remove them from consideration on both a tactical and sitrep level; you don't need to kill a mech if that mech isn't in a position to do anything useful.

#

NPCs that immediately suggest themselves are Witches, Hornets, Mirages, Cataphracts (no heavy frame means being able to displace them with abilities like Impale or Electrified Lasso), Hives, and Sentinels, though I think one of the most all-in-one NPC recommendations would be the Barricade. The Barricade has the ability to create obstructing terrain, to regularly apply Slow, has access to Prone and Immobilize, and has a very potent tech attack in Drag Down. Drag Down can be especially effective if someone is using movement-enhancing systems like SABR Engines to bypass the slow speed of the frames, having no upper limit on how much damage it can deal. Other possibilities include saturating areas using NPCs like Rainmakers or Seeders, and because both mechs can be forced to move by others much more easily than other heavy armored mechs such as Drakes or Tortugas, these also provide synergy with NPCs that facilitate that.

#

In terms of license-specific counterplay, Repair Paste Capillaries won't proc off of burn, which means that enemies which deal burn can bypass the Kalista's inherent armor as well as that system. Hives, Pyros, and Scourers are effective sources to look at. OGOUN can provide a significant amount of additional defense, but only procs on attacks or saves which cause those specific conditions, and the condition still applies...a proc off of Immobilize means the mech is still immobile. If it isn't going anywhere, you're free to allocate your opfor to other targets.

OGOUN and Repair Paste Capillaries are also both reactions, and anything that shuts off reactions can disable those as well. Grappling immediately comes to mind, as well as any other specific anti-reaction tech.

#

One note is that a usual counterplay matchup for low evasion high resilience mechs, the Breacher, is of less use here because both the Kalista and Gajasura have Reinforced Frame, which means that the Breacher's Break Armor ability no longer functions. That said, the Gajasura has 0 armor and Ablative Plating is only 1/round, so Breachers could potentially see use there simply for the ability to multi-attack them, but that's going to be a judgement call.

Since you're using Suldan, that means you also have access to Suldan NPCs. From that catalogue, Nightmares are another tech attack heat/control option with additional forced movement, Slow, and anti-reaction tech in their kit. Gladiators are aggressive blockers which can be used to tie up either mech as it attempts to move and have a variety of optional weapons and ways to keep mechs locked down. The Reaver is a lockdown defender which has a mix of displacement, Slow, AP damage, and burn in its kit. And lastly, the Phantom has the ability to deal a significant amount of damage which can't be reduced in any way, whether by something like OGOUN or the Gajasura's Ablative Plating.

#

One final note is that there are several NPC abilities which bypass conventional damage interactions altogether, such as the Sniper's Mark or the Reaver's Cannibalize, which neither the frames nor the license equipment have any ability to mitigate...direct structure damage can't be resisted, and every repair consumed is one less repair which can be used for Ablative Plating or Berserker Drive

#

Onto the Sagittarius, Search and the difficulties thereof have already been discussed, as are the issues the Scout faces against it. This is by design on my end; I've discussed this before, but I feel that a Scout applying a permanent anti-Hide effect which can only be shucked loose by someone spending a full action (or, I suppose, an RSU charge) to do so is not a particularly great form of counterplay...it flatly shuts down the Sagittarius' entire gameplan and costs the opfor very little for the privilege. Even if I reduced lock on immunity to something like "spend a quick action to shed lock on," that just turns every fight into "the GM brings a Scout and they and the Sagittarius play a game of initiative chicken daring the other to go first so they can hard counter them first." Ultimately, I decided that I'm okay with the Sagittarius not having to constantly force the GM and player to engage in that particular dance, settling the matter by just going "okay, the Hide-based mech does not get instantly chumped by the long-range Smart anti-Hide hard counter gun with range 15."

That said, one of the most effective ways to deal with Hiding rather than leaning on Rebound Scan or (Lesser) Sight, though those are options as well, is to simply put eyes on the target. Terrain destruction is one way to go about this, with things like a Bombard's Earthshaker Shells or the Termite and many of its options, and the other approach is to utilize "fast flanker" NPCs. Cataphracts came up earlier as well as commentary to the effect of "you don't want to have to use Cataphracts in every fight," but there are a number of NPCs which can serve a similar function. Aces, Hornets, Specters, Operators, and from Suldan you also have Carriers and Valkyries.

#

Infiltrator 3 will allow Hide-focused mechs to reposition even if their stealth is broken, but for flying mechs in particular the flash bomb effect doesn't really matter, and at any rate a Sagittarius that's constantly having to move because it's being harried and having its Hidden broken is a mech that has pressure put on it. The Ace's Strafe and Bombing Bay are effective optionals to bring to bear since they're additional damage that can be leveraged while moving, and the Ace's Barrel Roll is extremely effective against single big hits, which is what the Sagittarius specializes in.

Rainmakers, as noted, have some options at their disposal as well to bypass direct targeting requirements, such as Atlas and Hades Missiles, The Scout also has Orbital Bombardment, and the Mercenary Template has Favors Owed. Speaking of which, the Mercenary Template has access to the Scout Drone, and the Bombard also has the Flare Drone, both of which negate both Hidden and Invisible.

#

In terms of sitreps, combats involving reinforcements can create difficult choices for a Sagittarius player in terms of where they position themselves as enemy reinforcements coming in from different angles can immediately flank them and compromise their ability to remain concealed. Particularly isolated Sagittarius players can end up in a lot of trouble in scenarios like Gauntlet sitreps where a sizable NPC force can suddenly enter play from one of several entry points, or Holdouts where the entire map can be surrounded by entry points. The Sagittarius also isn't very effective at holding points, particularly if those points don't provide them a lot of hiding opportunities...being forced to reposition with Infiltrator or Tactical Translocators can keep them alive, but it won't keep them on control points.

dusk arch
#

one other point: though it doesn't really come up in Tier 1, at higher tiers the Gajasura begins to face additional difficulties against mechs which gain multiple attacks rather than those which have damage scaling, for much the reason mentioned earlier regarding Breachers. So Operators, Specters, Ronin, etc.

#

The Specter in particular has a pretty nasty combo between its Monowire Sword and Machine Pistol optional, it's not a lot of damage on a per-attack basis, but the Gajasura has 0 base armor to soak incidental damage, and so repeated multiplicative chip damage adds up on top of everything else

dusk arch
dusk arch
#

Also, though I'm not really sure how to really address this in terms of like "how do I counter/challenge this," Kangto Endochassis exists because roughly three times a day on average people here post something to the effect of "my mech/my player's mech got destroyed mid-mission due to an unlucky structure roll, what do I do now" and the usual advice given is "just Power At A Cost a new one to use"

#

fundamentally, I don't view the Kangto as being drastically different from that except A). the cost is pre-paid (you spent a core bonus on this, one of the most valuable character resources in lancer) and B). the Kangto is generally not as good as having your own actual mech

#

The Kangto does allow you to play riskier (or stupider if you prefer) safe in the knowledge that you have a backup, or to put it another way it's possible to use it aggressively/pre-emptively rather than reactively, but I think if your table has a general policy of letting people re-mech through various means anyway that this also isn't fundamentally different from what you could do already

#

Maybe more GMs than I imagine are imposing significantly punitive Costs for players who wind up de-meched to get back in the saddle or they're juggling some calculus as to whether the player is trying to deliberately exploit Power At At Cost or not, idk

#

If the issue comes down to "I can't permanently kill this player's mech" I would perhaps reframe it as Kangto Endochassis gives you as the GM way more leeway to beat the shit out of that mech specifically because you know it can take it, but also this loops all the way back to my earliest points about forcing players to play the objective, soaking a bunch of damage or doing dumb self destruct tricks is cool but is it actually winning the sitrep y/n

#

if someone has built the unkillable mech but in the process you interfere with their ability to manage the actual tactical requirements of a combat scene without even bothering with trying to kill them, kangto may not be worth as much as another core bonus might be

quaint beacon
#

as much as I love kangto as a concept, from a pure powergaming/optimization standpoint it is not a super mechanically powerful core bonus

#

so it's not really something that you'd need to plan around as a GM, honestly

#

the main upside is, yeah, it lets you play a lot riskier

opaque crane
#

It's a powerful durability tool... at the expense of not having some other incredibly useful bonus that might prevent getting to the point where it's needed.

quaint beacon
#

yeah, basically

dusk arch
#

it has a few little bonuses to it, like you reset your overcharge counter (woah broken) but again, to do this you are piloting the kangto

#

a mech with one flex mount and 4 base SP

quaint beacon
#

it's a very... comfy core bonus, I guess is the way to put it? does wonders for peace of mind, lets you do more risky plays and play very loose with your structure

from Pure Mind-Poisoned Optimization, it's better to just take a core to make you not die

#

yeah

#

kangto is a very cool and interesting core bonus that opens up a lot of build opportunities, I've seen a lot of cool stuff done with it

#

but it's not like super broken or anything

#

the main thing is, yeah, the kangto frame itself sucks (because it has to, the core would be broken in half otherwise)

dusk arch
#

in general I've seen some takes to the effect of "kangto is bad actually because" of the various reasons listed, but like I said, there's a plethora of "my mech died, now what?"

quaint beacon
#

yea

dusk arch
#

I know some folks have made revised structure damage tables which is cool but not what I'm personally interested in

swift mesa
#

The Kangto I feel gets underestimated by people who see mechs primarily as 'kill things' tools, not 'complete mission objectives' tools

#

As the Kangto does mission objectives well.

dusk arch
#

and specifically, the Emergency Reactor Override core bonus is more about "replacing the overheating table with a thing that gives you, specifically, bonuses and cool extras" rather than just being "I think the table is bad, here's table 2.0"

#

so you pay to have an exclusive little custom thing

swift mesa
#

Yeah, the Iron Crown is in a similar state.

# 
Multiple 1s
Last Stand
You can deal 1d6+6 Kinetic Damage that cannot be reduced in any way to the source of the Structure Damage or to a Hostile Character in Range 3. Then your mech is destroyed.
#

A 'I get to do Cool things if I'm getting beaten up'

#

But to go to the more key thing: I like the Kangto/it serves its role well.

#

I'm just not sure it has the same role some people expect it to have XD

dusk arch
#

Well the specific question being asked was "how do I challenge players using X, Y, and Z" Suldan content, and among those things listed was the Kangto

#

the specific build in question is a Sagittarius with Kangto, and I'll be honest, if you can force a Sagittarius player to eject into a Kangto then you've achieved a lot already tbh

#

you lose a lot in that particular translation

swift mesa
#

Yeah, that's minus the Fancy Bow Nonsense.

#

They're still functional but at a much reduced rate

dusk arch
#

you lose the bow and you have to pick which trait to inherit, so you can be sneaky still but have little to directly leverage it with, or you can leverage your stealth offensively BUT you don't have as much ability to keep from being searched out

swift mesa
#

Sneaky + No Offense Trait feels really good for 'Objective Running', if you're confident your allies can handle the fighting part.

dusk arch
#

Also, regarding Sensor Ghosts (Attacks against the Sagittarius that do not have line of sight count it as Invisible) just to clarify, because this has come up before, being Hidden does not equal "being out of line of sight."

#

They're two different things

#

You can hide while in LoS provided you have a sufficient source of cover to qualify, like large enough hard cover or a zone of soft cover (also if you're Invisible, but in that case you're going to be counted as Invisible anyway)

swift mesa
#

It's more for 'Seeking/Arcing can Piss Right Off'

dusk arch
#

a Sagittarius which is hidden in a position that does not involve breaking LoS (which is one way you can hide but not the only way) will not be counted as Invisible if you hammer the area with a Bombard or hose it down with a Pyro

#

that may or may not be a factor in Thornstorm's game, but I figured I'd bring it up nonetheless

gray thistle
#

I love the Kangto, it lets you get away with investing less into Hull with relatively risky gameplans, or just allow you to dump a lot of resources before blowing up and getting into the kangto. It's the kind of core bonus that just feels amazing because you can do so much with it as a build gremlin. The amount of additional toughness it adds is amazing, but it's at the cost of power. You're going to live longer than someone that took reinforced frame, but for a large chunk of that you will be a lot less effective than them.

#

Also, very nice writeup Kai

broken hill
#

While I missed the bulk of the discussion, breachers actually are weirdly good for bullying the Sagittarius. When something can consistently straight line through cover to reveal it, it screws up positioning and discourages using Steady Aim or Draw Back Bow. That makes their already low damage even lower.

final forum
#

Actually this conversation has made me think of something

#

For people who have used it, how does Kangto work in COMP//CON

rotund axle
#

The Kangto is just listed as another mech next to Everest, but says you need the CB for it

#

So you take the CB, add Kangto from the list of mechs in the hangar, then build it like you would any other mech

final forum
#

I see so in the middle of combat you would just go into your mech folder and switch to controlling that one instead

dusk arch
# broken hill While I missed the bulk of the discussion, breachers actually are weirdly good ...

This is a good point and I considered bringing Breachers up in that context, but they're a bit one note in that you're leaning solely on Breach Ram which is a recharge ability. Their shotguns are ill suited to actually pressuring the Sagittarius due to its high base evasion and the likelihood that it'll have INKWELL Adaptive Paint on top of everything else, you can play the odds but it's not something I'd rely on

#

Breachers versus a Sagittarius are imo more of a "if you brought them along for other reasons, you can also use them this way" thing rather than an NPC I'd suggest bringing solely for that purpose

broken hill
#

Yeah when I was in a sagi the GM dropped merc breachers with follower count to chase me and the Atlas out of hiding. They would reveal us and then shotgun another character if they were in range, otherwise follower on us so they could chase us to the next cover.

dusk arch
#

Yep, that sounds about right

quaint beacon
#

in the short shot I ran vs that sagi that I mentioned previously, I actually had a grunt breacher breach ram up into the sagi's face to break its cover and force it out of hidden

except it procced infil 1 and died to the flash bomb heat, creating new cover for the sagi from its corpse

nova slate
#

on the subject of the kangto, i feel like the "its bad actually" is mostly on the pure consideration of the spectrum of "good and bad" relating to damage output honestly. I think its a great back stop, and backstops have value if your GM is pressing in and meeting those attritional goals on a tight enough mark that they're likely to actually get destructions out in a mission

#

which is, imo, a good place to be from a challenge perspective

rotund axle
#

Yeah

#

Y'know that might actually be one of my problems lmao, I have a hard time remembering that "doing 50 damage each turn" isn't the only thing a mech should worry about

nova slate
#

as an aside, I also totally celebrate any tool that might get a more timid player feeling brave enough to make bold or big plays

ionic badger
nova slate
#

i can see that, though to counterpoint, if your fights are balanced with the prospective realistic possibility of getting destroyed, its not a bad thing that you could just avoid, its a distinct possibility that you should probably plan for/around

#

Of course if your fights never get hard enough to get destroyed, it stops being a useful investment

rotund axle
#

It's also useful when like you have an extra CB you can take but don't really have anything else you necessarily need

nova slate
#

so there's a level of reading challenge trends at the table i imagine

rotund axle
#

(Though I guess then you could just take Superior Logistics, but Kangto's also a good pick)

final forum
#

Does Kangto synergize with Manticore?

nova slate
#

nah you still die

#

manticore aint got no weasel out techniques

dusk arch
#

The big issue with Briareos Frame, which is I think the big poster child for "making a bad situation less bad" is that its not a thing you can deliberately play around

#

And also it has a degree of randomness to it which means even in circumstances that are broadly catastrophic, you might not be able to make use of it

#

The Kangto similarly might never be used, but if it doesn't it won't be a situation where you might have HOPED it could kick in but it just didn't, it'll be because the opportunity or circumstances didn't arrive

#

And there are some edge case proactive uses you can employ with it as well, such as self-destructing your primary mech without leaving yourself stuck as a pilot, or emergency map movement for some last ditch sitrep business via eject movement plus the kangto's own core power

ionic badger
#

the Kangto definitely has a lot more applicable scenarios generally, especially for some frames where it can inherit useful traits

#

but mech destruction is personally still not something I would generally super build around in most cases, but that may really just be differing table experiences

dusk arch
#

I definitely don't think I'd build around it, but I think there's enough mech destruction that just happens in the course of normal play unless you're using someone else's homebrewed structure tables that some people would be fine with the option of "take a core bonus to not have to negotiate Power At A Cost when it does"

#

which was sort of the impetus, it originally started out as me just thinking about a core bonus that was literally "get a new mech airdropped in after you fuck up your first one"

nova slate
#

literally in the past I would have a reserve they could get that was just their everest that could be drop podded in, so thats pretty much on the money

dusk arch
#

yeah

#

arguably reserves are a more optimal place for emergency backups when things go awry, but the virtue of the kangto is being able to deliberately and deterministically plan around it

#

plus from a certain angle, when viewed through the lens of low base repair cap mechs, the Kangto is one of the most efficient ways to extend your operational uptime which doesn't involve waiting for more Hull points to roll in

nova slate
#

well also the reserve generally had me going Hmmmmmm, since it was just a fresh mech; kangto or kangto like stuff is way more palatable

#

from like a mission balance perspective

dusk arch
#

it's actually pretty smart imo to put the Kangto on something like a Sagittarius (as that one player did) because that's a whole other four structure you can draw on when your mech has a base repair cap of 2 out of the box

nova slate
#

like id even use a built kangto as the reserve rather than a licensed mech these days

#

if that reserve ever came up again

#

(it hasnt)

#

i might also play around with like a "you can start in your kangto if you have it, and then we can titanfall in your mech on your call" style reserve

#

and make up some fancy reason as to how it can like... do a movie esque suit in suit thing

#

thats just me though thinking out loud, sry for tangenting

dusk arch
#

go for it, it's not like I keep very strict posting standards

nova slate
#

it just kinda works well conceptually as like "Here's your 'we have mechs at home' mech"

#

which might be a possible reflavor for how the core bonus kicks in too

#

titanfalling in

#

and backflipping into it

#

or something

dusk arch
#

I think the thing to consider is a reverse Kangto is going to probably be a scooch more powerful because it lets you keep the "real" mech in reserve until called upon, so it comes in fresh

nova slate
#

ahhh true, yeah

dusk arch
#

even if you only use the kangto for like one combat, that's effectively a "consequence free" fight for the mech you call in, unless using the kangto somehow directly resulted in a huge scene loss or something