#Make Artificer not horrible

1 messages · Page 11 of 1

ripe siren
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Acrid gets the coolest skins

weak mulch
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engi skins are kinda kindacringebro

clear crystal
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make it 5 full alt wins

image.png
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also i did test out the vertical tec surge boost + sun sweep and its definitely a solid maneuver

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also, forgot to mention earlier, sun (and maybe flamer? been a while since i played with it idk) procs on every hit so they scale hard af with these types of items and it kinda makes up for it imo. chackrams scale well with their own stuff too, mainly crowd control

faint nebula
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flamer procs on hit yea

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really fun with all the rocket items

coral bobcat
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Anyone know what changed in the "community suggestions we're looking into" bit four hours ago?

ripe siren
ripe siren
civic dock
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as the other guy said, that is
so they literally just scale worse, as in, the value she gets out of atg is lower than people with mostly just direct damage, because most of her damage per hit wont be included
so she wants to look more for stuff like attack speed or toxin that can multiply both at the same time

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she does have a few good things when it comes to some procs though
like C_StickyBomb's aoe matching really well with the close ranged multihits

ripe siren
civic dock
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wtf

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this game is so dumb

ripe siren
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Attack needs to be capable of proc'ing for them (or similar items like crowbar) to apply.

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DoT and yellow pierce damage don't benefit

civic dock
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yeah they really need to change that kinda thing

coral bobcat
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I still wouldn't refuse a toxin on her, tbh

ripe siren
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Or rather, a consequence of intentional design, foreseen or not.

coral bobcat
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It's not much, but it still gives value since if you're in range for chakram sourspot to hit, you're in range for toxin to activate

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By the by, what does stacking gold gun or the toxin do specifically?

ripe siren
coral bobcat
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What does stacking them do?

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Like, is there a benefit to more than one toxin or gun?

ripe siren
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Similar for crowbar.

glacial jewel
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artificial sun is questionable but whoever was complaining about blink arrow is flat out wrong

coral bobcat
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Aaah, thank you ae!

scarlet ether
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what, warp darts?

inner bloom
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this is true: my suggestioins are to let the player move at full speed during the primary so you can maintain the correct distance, since rn everything just walks past it instantly, and replace the movement skill with ion surge with lower cool down and a longer duration for low gravity since the current one SUCKS its cooldown is absurdly high for a mediocre movement skill

scarlet ether
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those are good

long skiff
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Make ice wall take priority for enemies even when they roll through it trol

hybrid silo
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Everybody is talking about setup or the math and I'm over here saying that Arti just isn't fun to play

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Though admittedly that's partially because she requires setup

clear crystal
# ripe siren Sun scales with them fine, it doesn't do burn damage. This is about chakram and ...

sometimes i feel like people just dont read what i say. i know what you said was mainly about chackram, i know and have known it does burn damage mostly amd doesnt work well with those items as a result, and wasnt sure how flamer worked so i made it very clear that i didnt know for sure. admittedly i couldve mentioned flamers burn damage, but what i was saying is that sun patches up that hole in her gameplan because it does scale very well with total damage on hits.

clear crystal
ripe siren
clear crystal
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in terms of default kit i need to play with it more but i guarantee devs know tjat it doesnt scale well with those options and find it fine despite it and at this point id be inclimed to trust them, but again i need to test it more

civic dock
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you were talking about flamer
in that sense thats what i was saying it doesnt scale with it, i forgot to specify i think

ripe siren
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That some of her abilities still function doesn't "fix" that problem.

clear crystal
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the sun is literally designed for u to use tec surge and movement to cut off ur line of fire with primary so u can use sun from safe places

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not necessarily all the time but it works very well, its dmg carries even without primary a lot of the time

clear crystal
hybrid silo
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But you can't stand still while using it. How would you stay on the platform?

civic dock
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was meant to refer to that

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and the chakrams cause i dont really think they get bonus scaling from anything

clear crystal
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I dont know. u knoq what those words mean yes... feel like im going insane i readily admitted i wasnt sure

civic dock
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in the sense that they just kinda accomplish less than almost any other such multihit skill in terms of scaling

clear crystal
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on flamer specofocally

ripe siren
civic dock
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deadbolt is a better point and click adventure

clear crystal
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then dont play sun. and again, regarding primary, my stance rn is not everything has to scale with every item. but i am ADMITTING I NEED TO PLAY BASE KIT MORE TO BE MORE CONFIDENT IN MY OPINION MAKING THAT VERY CLEAR FOR U since apparently yall wanna ignore what i say and tell me im talking abt flamer when i readily admit im not sure on it

ripe siren
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My point here, is that chakrams go from requiring setup for a high damage payout, to requiring setup for piddling damage.

inner bloom
clear crystal
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either way i hope they never touch arti again.

ripe siren
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Sun is strong. I don't enjoy it, but it is strong.

clear crystal
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so much whining thst makes no sense, amd some smaller percentage of actually well structured arguments but its like 5% mmax

ripe siren
inner bloom
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no becuase we are all just bad at the game and list node is waiting for a scientifically structured argument becuase that is required to give an opinion on the character

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unfort

hybrid silo
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The very idea that your primaries require enemies to be standing still is infuriating.
Your secondaries are alright, honestly, bit definitely don't feel as effective as they were in RoR2.
Your utility option is meant for holding things in place, but has an incredibly long downtime and very short uptime. It is required for optimal use of most of your abilities. Your alt utility gives that up for upwards mobility.
Your special is good, but slows you down a lot, for a long period, allowing most heavier enemies to beat on you for the duration. Your alt special has you basically surrender smart movement to use optimally, or at all.
Supposedly you can use the alt utility and special together well, but the only thing I can see with that is sending the sun straight down.
And finally, none of your attacks except your secondaries have hitstun worth anything.

faint nebula
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few points to that

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frower if used properly won't let anything that isn't flying hit you

inner bloom
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tbf the survivors in ror2 are way stronger generally, so it makes sense that they are watered down compared to ror2

hybrid silo
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Golems

faint nebula
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sun + tecsurge is indeed supposed to just be jump up, sun down and it works better than you may think

faint nebula
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also youre still faster than golems

hybrid silo
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Also elder lemurians

faint nebula
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and faster than elder lems

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also again, peak jump height

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their damaging hitbox is a lot shorter than their body hitbox

inner bloom
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counterpoint: it sucks to use

ripe siren
clear crystal
ripe siren
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Honestly the only issue with airborn flamer is flying enemies and volatiles.

inner bloom
hybrid silo
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I'm more okay with flamethrower than pretty much all of artis kit, honestly

faint nebula
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ice wall is bleh, orb is fine but you shouldn't be using it as a damaging tool

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it's a stun

clear crystal
hybrid silo
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It's definitely better than in 2

faint nebula
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spear is awkward vs big groups but really strong if used properly

ripe siren
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That doesn't scale particularly well either, but it's good enough for Monsoon.

faint nebula
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yeah

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late monsoon is 90% run and frow

inner bloom
# faint nebula it's a stun

i feel like the stun kinda loses its synergy with her m1 after u start getting elites and bigger enemies more commonly

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especially blighteds

faint nebula
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well yes

inner bloom
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yeah nooo

faint nebula
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that is the complaint

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but I place that more on chakrams than on sphere

clear crystal
inner bloom
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i think the sphere is kinda just not very useful generallytho

clear crystal
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i can agree her secondaries are her most underwhelming moves tjey feel like afterthoughts in my gameplay

long skiff
inner bloom
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like whenever i was playing her i always felt like casting her secondary would be to my detriment

faint nebula
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tbh I find wall to be her most underwhelming skill

long skiff
inner bloom
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true but the wall does have practicality

faint nebula
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after stage 3 it lasts 2 seconds if that much

clear crystal
inner bloom
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true

long skiff
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Allows for the primary and special to have easy usage

hybrid silo
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Wall is better in this game than it was in 2, honestly

faint nebula
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in theory, yes

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in practice tecsurge lets you do that much much better

inner bloom
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its a straight up good damage attack and does 20% damage to anything instantly

long skiff
hybrid silo
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For the execute? Sure, I guess.

inner bloom
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its not used as a wall its just an attack in ror2

long skiff
ripe siren
inner bloom
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could be i dont remmeber

hybrid silo
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I always just swapped it out for something else if I had the option

inner bloom
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what was the alternative

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i dont remember arti having an alt shift

faint nebula
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bird up

hybrid silo
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Mods, my dude

inner bloom
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ion surge is flamethrower alt

long skiff
inner bloom
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if aths that you are talking about

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okok

faint nebula
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the alternative is Heretic

inner bloom
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ohhh

faint nebula
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or, well, her utility anyway

long skiff
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Ion was so much better than flamethrower

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Wasn’t even close

inner bloom
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true

faint nebula
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nah

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they're about equal for the first loop

hybrid silo
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Everything else in artis 2 kit was great(with the exception of flamethrower, but that's what surge was for)

faint nebula
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after that its frower or pain

hybrid silo
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There was just something so fun about turning yourself into a bomber

inner bloom
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i was an arti main in ror2 (before sotv)and ion surge carried so hard

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especially after loop 1

faint nebula
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it carries you if you need to gtfo but frower gives you actual proc synergy

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which is the only way to deal any real damage late game

inner bloom
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nah her ball and ice wall do plenty of damage

long skiff
inner bloom
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anyway this chat isnt about ror2 lmao

long skiff
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The movement is just so much better

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Flamethrower didn’t even do good dmg

faint nebula
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just dodge 5Head

inner bloom
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i cant dodge im locked into frower

long skiff
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Immunity to melee enemies too

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Make mithrix so much easier

faint nebula
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ice wall makes mithrix trivial regardless

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man can't stop running into it

inner bloom
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i think the reason u dont see the potential in orb and wall damage is because you havent utilized them to their full potential since u dont use surge

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lmao

faint nebula
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I did use surge

inner bloom
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especially orb

faint nebula
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I speak from experience

inner bloom
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its kinda reliant on surge completely

hybrid silo
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Is it so wrong to just want firebolts back?

inner bloom
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idk i kinda like the idea of the m1

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and it looks cool

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it just needs

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something to let you actually hit stuff with it

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like running while shooting

long skiff
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I like alt m1 because yes

inner bloom
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and maybe like slowing enemies that it hits or something

hybrid silo
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Hitstun, maybe?

long skiff
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But also I don’t play too much arti, I mostly play rex and engi

hybrid silo
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I would play arti way more if she was more fun to play

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As it is I'll stick with one-tapping everything with sniper, thanks

long skiff
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I like looting with Robomando so I’ll stick with that

clear crystal
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Maybe this isnt what you mean specifically but i feel like some ppl have that mentality of if the character isnt as strong as x other character i like then theyre bad and need changing. Sniper is just unequivocally overpowered tbh, one of the best if not the single best survivor in the game if you know what ur doing (regardimg what crayssius said not casual redacted fan)

lofty valley
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Why have hitstun when you could have hitSUN????

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Become based and sunpilled today

bright geyser
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i think chakrams are fine

long skiff
bright geyser
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if there were to be any change i would say just damage or distance but its still pretty enjoyable to use

clear crystal
pastel grove
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id say sniper is harder to play than artificer

long skiff
pastel grove
bright geyser
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movement speed helps the ability later on and hitstun isnt necessary for it. would make it too easy of an ability to use

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i think character difficulty is just different depending on each person

clear crystal
ripe siren
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Sniper ain't that hard, and is definitely one of the stronger survivors. "Strongest" is tricky, because there are some survivors with outlier moves that can make them ridiculously strong.

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Drifter, Merc, Loader, Huntress, lil' guy, possibly knifemando all have a move like that.

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Then there's Pilot who's just stronk

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Knifemando only really starts getting ridiculous when looping, but man he can get ridiculous.

hybrid silo
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Had an idea for a way for chakrams to be more fun. The functionality largely remains the same, with a couple exceptions: 1. Chakram partially deploys during flight, dealing at least 1 tick of damage and burn stacks. 2. Instead of stopping at it's peak, chakram slows and curves back around, acting more like a boomerang. It still deals most of its damage at its peak, but still burns close enemies and has better effectiveness without the use of ice wall or slows.

bright geyser
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i dont think chakrams need to really change and with the aiming thing in development jump shooting will be really good for arti

ripe siren
bright geyser
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how come

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you can technically do it normally its just hard without the aiming thing

ripe siren
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It was elaborated by Bizz at one point that they don't want to enable reverse-direction jump firing with an accessibility feature. It will not provide a significant advantage over not using it.

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It may end up being possible, but they don't want it to be easy, that's for sure.

clear crystal
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@ripe siren @civic dock wanna apologize for respomding as negatively as i did earlier, pointless to go into details much now, just getting told something i already new by two ppl left me feeling a little unheard, but i think it was mostly if not totally a misunderstanding and i shouldve handled it better

civic dock
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it s coo ll

ripe siren
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No prob

clear crystal
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thanks.

bright geyser
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hmm. from the way i thought it was going to work was just you can switch which direction you are aiming from left to right and that was really it.

ripe siren
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I suspect it'll kill your momentum to switch

clear crystal
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yeah my assumption is that the button on kb when held will force aim that direction so if moving left, away from a horde, hold the "right aim button" jump then mash primary

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you can kinda already do this with quick inputs but you inevitably lose some momentum no matter how fast u input

ripe siren
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Maybe I should find the Bizz post

clear crystal
ripe siren
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just to see what he said specifically

clear crystal
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#risk-of-rain-returns message i think this kinda what we're talking abt maybe?

ripe siren
bright geyser
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yea it sounds like what i was anticipating was correct is correct but we'll have to see what its like whenit comes out

clear crystal
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makes sense

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yeah it is pretty precise to do jump turnaround shots without losing speed

ripe siren
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I'm willing to bet it won't be as simple as jump and hold the stick the other way, buuut

clear crystal
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at least effectively

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im excited to see what they cook up eother way. will be interesting have two new keys to worry about to say the least haha, if i use it that is

bright geyser
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if they still wanted skill expression with it they could just make it so you have to reinput the aim direction but honestly that just seems weird to do

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limiting skill expression by how fast you can do something with your hands feels unfair to me

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i much prefer the idea of having knowledge of the game effect how well you can show skills off.

clear crystal
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fighting games in shambles. mostly joking tho lol theyre very different genres

ripe siren
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I'm also not a huge fan of micro in games

bright geyser
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fighting games do be like that yea but i think there are some ways to sorta alleviate that problem. mainly not making commands absolutely long and convoluted

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and understanding the inner workings of a fighting game can help a lot in terms of skill expression

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i forget who it was but there was someone who wasnt fast with their hands but they understood a lot of the frame data and got pretty far in a competitive scenario

clear crystal
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btw next time devs in chat im gonna try to (as not annoyingly as possible) ask one of them whst the design philosophy is on chakram not scaling well is. cuz like they obviously know, but i wonder what the reasoning is behind making it that way amd leaving it that way. i.e do they thing it does enough dmg as is? maybe theyre meant to take on more of a cc role later in a run? idk but their thoughts would be interesting and devs have been pretty chill with spilling beans like that so far so heres hoping. if anyone else asks pls link response here bc im curious

bright geyser
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i mean i think the dot is supposed to be your main damage

ripe siren
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Now it has a little piercing

clear crystal
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yeah its just rlly hard to compare damage because its all gamefeel

ripe siren
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Burn is still single target though

bright geyser
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can you not hit multiple enemies with the chakram spin and proc burn on each?

clear crystal
ripe siren
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No, only one target can be hit by each burn tick.

bright geyser
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really?

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that seems like more of an oversight than a way to balance the skill out

ripe siren
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Yes. It's partly why it's the worst scaling ability in the game.

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I asked Dee about it, once, but got no reply. Given there was no piercing whatsoever at first, I assume it was intentional.

clear crystal
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so wiki says it hits 5 times at peak, ur saying if thats on top of ten enemies its still only 5 burn hits, not 50?

ripe siren
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Yes.

bright geyser
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so what it will only hit the top most enemy?

ripe siren
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Not entirely sure how it selects which enemy to apply to, but it's one enemy for each tick.

clear crystal
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i feel like that cant be right but ive never tested it. it doesnt feel like thats how it works but ill have to pay more attention to it

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though in a pile of enemies idk how im gonna be able to tell

ripe siren
bright geyser
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yea same it never seemed that way but i havent exactly put a lot of time into testing it

ripe siren
bright geyser
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i think the use of multiple chakrams makes it harder to tell

clear crystal
bright geyser
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its weird cause you see one walk past and has the burn ticks

ripe siren
clear crystal
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i think its just selecting targets by proximity, maybe random if equidistant

ripe siren
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Woops, forgot, that's with a custom setting trial

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where I set 100 base damage

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you'd have to do some shenannigans to test it

bright geyser
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but is that with or without the toss and return effecting it

clear crystal
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given that i feel like they might be too strong if the burn ticks had infinite pierce lmao

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but idk

bright geyser
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cause doesnt the toss and return hit once

clear crystal
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the toss return hit all enemies i think but dont burn, right?

ripe siren
# bright geyser but is that with or without the toss and return effecting it

It works like this:
Chakram can hit all enemies once going out, and once on the way back. Of all of those hits, only the first hit to the first enemy will be affected by procs and damage modifiers.
At the apex, the chakrams inflict burn five times to one enemy. Each stack deals 10% damage 6 times. They do not otherwise deal damage during this phase.

clear crystal
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i think the fact that u can throw so many of them kinda makes up for it maybe, or at least that seems to be the design intent. like if youve got a whole group behind ice wall and mash them

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but it is weird that her design is like group enemies up and then she doesnt have pierce on her primary lol. ig flamers better when you have a big group, which is probly y you mentioned it carries

ripe siren
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So:
90% damage to all targets hit.
300% burn damage in total, does not pierce.
Proc and damage mod items only affect one hit of 45% no matter what.

clear crystal
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ig to an extent the chakrams are better for when just kiting around instead of against grouos. not speaking on procs atm btw just like use cases ig

ripe siren
clear crystal
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wish i could get like a rolling avg dps meter for runs or smthn lmao its so hard to talk on dmg without numbers

ripe siren
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Oh I've got a dps calculator I've been making, originally inspired by chakrams

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as part of the ability testing spreadsheet

clear crystal
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cuz like idk maybe im wrong but devs seem to think they do great dps for a primary in the right cases at least

clear crystal
ripe siren
# clear crystal cuz like idk maybe im wrong but devs seem to think they do great dps for a prima...

Stage 1 they deal 125 continuous DPS to a single target, and only Sniper can match that as far as I know. For comparison, Pilot's Clusterfire deals 52 DPS to a single target.
But let's say you're at stage 3, level 10, at this point you have a toxin and one or two golden guns, or some other items that boost your damage one way or another.
Her chakram DPS against say, 2 targets, is at this point 650 DPS.
Pilot's Clusterfire deals 684 DPS in the same scenario.

clear crystal
clear crystal
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i guess they really do serve as a kiting and single target tool more than anything

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and flame/sun does the heavy lifting

ripe siren
clear crystal
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yeah like 20 targets vs enforcer shotgun in shield, as an example, with those items i feel like enforcer wins by a lot

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bc full pierce

ripe siren
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It isn't even close lol

clear crystal
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yeah lol

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in a way it kinda makes sense bc when ur kiting around with them with wall and stuff om cd typically only a few enemies walk over them during flame spin, but yeah good to know chakrams arent great for tight crowds (which is pretty unintuitive design imo)

clear crystal
ripe siren
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If they scaled fully with crowd size, they 'd be okay.
If they scaled fully with items, they'd be okay.
They are uniquely bad in that they do neither.

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But they're very strong stage 1, so hey

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¯_(ツ)_/¯

clear crystal
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they certainly have a... unique position in the game lol. i dont pay a ton of attention to soecifically how i play but thinking back on it towards endgame i kinda just throwem out while kiting and thats about it, and i guess they dont seem to do much? its hard to tell. can definitely tell against like wandering vagramt or something tho lol

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ill have to keep more if an eye open for it all

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u know thinking on it maybe her secondaries do fill more of a role than i thougjt, given all this, they have full pierce/ aoe after all

bright geyser
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Doesn't golden gun work differently tho

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It doesn't add to the damage Stat just does extra damage to the enemy

ripe siren
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Same with Toxin.

bright geyser
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So wouldn't that take away from the damage calculations of chakram

ripe siren
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It does.

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It's already factored in sunglas

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Oh you know what, I just realized I was applying to bonus the 90% of the chakram damage rather than 45%

bright geyser
ripe siren
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So ever so slightly worse for chakrams sunglas

ripe siren
# bright geyser Wouldn't this be a sorta unfair comparison

Unfair in which sense? It's certainly not doing chakrams any favors, but most items don't. Even if you consider other effects like boosting attack speed, it benefits both equally. You won't be able to add items that benefit chakrams more than other abilities.

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The most 'unfair' thing in that comparison is just how good golden gun is.

clear crystal
ripe siren
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They deal 90% to crowds, plus 300% single target.

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Not pure single target, but still.

clear crystal
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i guess 90% to all enemies on every toss is decent. probly why they dont feel totally useless by the end of a monsoon run, but its nothing impressive of course

bright geyser
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I'm more so getting at the fact that it doesn't take into consideration the dot. Unless the dot is applied similarly to bleed

ripe siren
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It's pretty similar to bleed, what specifically are you wondering about?

bright geyser
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I think I'm not getting across what I mean.

clear crystal
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i know devs have said main testing is for rainstorn, amd its an assumption but id wager that main testing is also done with runs to provi, not loopimg and in that context chakrams still fall off a lot of course but the numbers at least make them seem usable enough at the end of a monsoon run to provi with ur other abilities doing more work

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but i can see how they probly could be given at least something to let them keep up in longer runs, unless her secondary can carry harder than i anticipate

ripe siren
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Yeah. They're also not the only attack with poor item scaling, CHEF's primary has the same single-target limitation to procs.

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Though scales better with crowd sizes

clear crystal
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dang thats rough (makes the alt cooler by comparison at least lmao)

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which i think can peoc on all hits

ripe siren
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Think it's a normal melee swing so it should

clear crystal
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think ive seen bleed on a whole crowd idk tho

bright geyser
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Ok so basically what I'm thinking of is how golden gun isn't properly applied to the dot so I feel comparing something that works fully with it and something that only partially works with it unfair.

ripe siren
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The Hit List.

clear crystal
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thats kinda the point tho, chakrams dont so well with almost any on hits, like hyperthreader is an exception simce its flat dmg but theres not many in the game

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wait is hyper flat i think it is

bright geyser
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And about how bleed and burn apply, from what I know the bleed damage is based on the attacks damage instead of the characters damage

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Idk if it works the same for chakrams burn

ripe siren
clear crystal
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wiki says flat. but yeah its a very specific item dependent move.

ripe siren
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Chakram burn is 10% base damage for 6 ticks, giving 60% base

clear crystal
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of there was more % of base dmg effects in the game it would actually scale really solidly i think

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bc the full pierce on toss would proc stuff

ripe siren
clear crystal
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oh no i meant hyperthreader sorry

ripe siren
clear crystal
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i guess it doesnt say flat butnit doesnt say total soni assumed

clear crystal
ripe siren
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Hyperthreader is % base I think, yeah

bright geyser
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I guess one other thing then, does the Chakram still do damage while spinning or is it only applying the dot

ripe siren
clear crystal
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wadda hell

ripe siren
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There is one (1) proc chance per chakram, scaling of 45% damage

clear crystal
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they really gave this thing no scaling 😭

ripe siren
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Every time I talk about this it feels like everyone assumes it can't have as much stacked against it as it does

bright geyser
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I mean personally it just never felt bad

clear crystal
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i think the game feel of it is a lot better than it actually is lol. like it looks like its doing a lot

ripe siren
#

To a single target, without items

clear crystal
#

random q but whats nanobomb cd

#

wish cds were on the wiki

ripe siren
bright geyser
#

Doing judgement was really fun with her because the chakrams felt as good as they did

clear crystal
ripe siren
#

Judgement is good because you always get multishops

clear crystal
#

and hit list

ripe siren
#

So you can try to avoid things that scale poorly for her

glacial jewel
#

omg this has over 10k messages

ripe siren
#

welcome

#

Today is the chakram scaling sermon

bright geyser
#

I mean I just got bleed as my main thing

#

And hit list yea

clear crystal
#

does flamer have it this bad too? i guess it at least hits all targets, can it proc on all hits (even if weak ones)?

ripe siren
bright geyser
#

I mean hey it still did a lot for me

clear crystal
#

i think atk speed is like the only thing that works well for them

ripe siren
#

Granted 75% of its damage is burn ticks, but still.

#

Nothing to sneeze at even then.

clear crystal
#

yeah in general if not taking sun she seems like a very "kill provi amd nothing else" character.

#

sun seems like her only great scaling, though maybe pulse spear works better than i know

ripe siren
#

Flamer is still strong enough to loop, because it scales well with crowd size.

bright geyser
#

Does justice and lopper scale well with chakrams?

ripe siren
#

And has silly high damage.

clear crystal
ripe siren
#

I still don't think it's great

#

But like, so long as you either scale well with # of enemies or items, you're probably fine

ripe siren
clear crystal
#

its cd is like 13 sec right? crazy that sun gets near full uptime in comparison

bright geyser
clear crystal
#

i feel like reduced armor should be the best thing for dot damage but it probly doesnt even apply

#

from what im hearing

ripe siren
#

I think you're likely to waste more uptime with sun than flamer, too

clear crystal
#

thats 100% true yeah itll sit off cd unused sometimes bc the time just isnt right, unless u get lucky with a ton of damage items and can face mash almost everything lol

long skiff
clear crystal
#

do we know how nanobomb and pulse spear proc btw? id hope its more than 1 enemy each at least

#

also is it consistent that white number hits proc and yellow dont? so i can test quick questions like that myself in the future

ripe siren
ripe siren
#

White = can proc is a decent rule of thumb

clear crystal
#

cool. glad secondary is a reliably scaling move

ripe siren
#

As far as I know the only piercing moves that can only proc once are Dice and Flame Chakram

clear crystal
#

them 2 really got the short end of the stick huh

ripe siren
#

Dice was silly overpowered in RoR1 due to a bug, supposedly, might have something to do with the harsher treatment

coral bobcat
#

It's still pretty good even with single proc action though

#

It's not the abomination onto all of humanity that it was in 1, but it has good reach, power, and rate of fire on something that pierces

#

Also it's an AOE on an M1, which means it can go full blender, unlike basically every other aoe but enforcer's default m1 with like 20 syringes

ripe siren
#

Half are melee, but plenty aren't

coral bobcat
#

And very few of them can go full blender

ripe siren
#

What do you mean by that

long skiff
ripe siren
long skiff
long skiff
coral bobcat
#

Basically, full blender is the point where any given attack is rapid fire enough that it's sheer damage instance count per second is near impossible to calculate without slowing down footage

ripe siren
#

I'd say plenty get to that point. Melee ones, obviously. The only one that'd take a while is Pierce, and that just because it's high damage low RoF

#

Bullet Punch as well

coral bobcat
#

Not a lot of AOEs can actually reach that point in a particularly feasible number of syringes/coffee, partly due to them having charges, startups, a reload in one case, or an overhead lob trajectory

ripe siren
#

Don't sleep on the overhead lobs, Throwing Axe is amazing

coral bobcat
#

It is amazing, but, part of full blender is also immediacy, and any arcing trajectory by nature cannot be immediate

#

Until maybe hopoo decides to commit warcrimes by adding an item that increases projectile speed

#

Overhead lobs also for some reason get more lumped in with a terminology called "carpet bombing" as opposed to full blender

#

Despite carpet bombing irl more being a haphazard wall of explosives

#

Though I guess with Behemoth and throwing axe, it very much could be

ember goblet
#

you're not going blender with chakrams, you're going blender with flamethrower

#

especially when you pass stage 2, the wall usually dies instantly before you get a chance, even while mashing m1

coral bobcat
#

I never said with chakrams?

ember goblet
#

then what the hell is artificer's M1?

#

nvm i'm just blind as a bat apparently

bright geyser
#

Ok so I finally put in some time for sun arti and its interesting

#

It's definitely strong but it feels like I'm only using the sun. While that's fine it still sorta feels weird

faint nebula
#

Yea thats most of why I dont like sun much

#

Its good, it just takes over a bit too much for me

ripe siren
bright geyser
#

with flamer im using my other abilities more

#

they still feel useful

faint nebula
bright geyser
#

i know weve talked alot about how chakrams are kinda weak but they still feel fine throughout the run

faint nebula
#

With sun having only 1s of cooldown you have no real reason to not always be ballin'

#

Or well

#

1s downtime I should say

bright geyser
#

it has a lot of things it can work well with too so it just ferels like im just using sun becausee its so powerful

faint nebula
#

Meanwhile flamer is your delete button thst comes around every once in a while so you dont wanna waste it

#

Gives your other abilities some more room to shine

bright geyser
#

it being the main thing isnt so much a problem just something i realized

faint nebula
#

Im not saying its necessarily bad

bright geyser
#

if there was more control over it tho i could imagine actually using my other abilities more

faint nebula
#

Just that I prefer frower cause I find the rest of her kit more fun than solar ballin'

ripe siren
weak mulch
ripe siren
weak mulch
# ripe siren Yup.

So by the same logic, there is no way to increase atg and other total dmg procs aside fron fire shield stacking and some of these items increasing their total dmg per stack?

ripe siren
weak mulch
#

Wound affects total dmg from procs?

ripe siren
#

Not exactly bueno

weak mulch
#

That's ominous

ripe siren
#

Wound creates a second hit for (50% x number of wound stacks) of direct damage delt, which includes damage modifiers.

#

The wound hit itself can proc (and is affected by damage modifiers)

weak mulch
#

Wound stacks??

#

That's the first I'm hearing this

ripe siren
#

It doesn't show the number of stacks currently, but that was just a small oversight.

#

It'll get fixed eventually, according to Dee

weak mulch
#

So it's like the acrid alt m1 but on steroids

ripe siren
#

Acrid alt M1 is just a regular damage modifier

weak mulch
#

Or do they use the samw logic

ripe siren
#

Wound is unique

weak mulch
#

Oh yeah

#

Hence the steroid part

#

Commando + sniper = best friends?

ripe siren
#

Wound isn't even a damage modifier

weak mulch
ripe siren
#

If you hadn't worked it out yet, by the way, all damage modifiers are multiplied into wound damage twice in the end.

#

Which means they're all squared.

weak mulch
#

Yeah

#

Since it takes your dmg then does it again and multiplies it again

#

Double dips

#

Interesting

#

So commando has the highest dmg potential atm

#

Alone that is

ripe siren
weak mulch
#

Combined sniper + commando would be the highest single shot dmg possible

ripe siren
ripe siren
weak mulch
#

Oh yeah stack one more multiplier

#

Realistically it'd actually be commando acrid bandit and sniper

ripe siren
#

Acrid and commando's debuffs have no caps, though, so there isn't a max damage number

weak mulch
#

Yea

ripe siren
#

Well, probably anyway

weak mulch
#

Idk considering the multipliers are multiplicative

ripe siren
#

and 2 commandos is better still

weak mulch
#

Might be close

#

Oh that one is fair

ripe siren
#

The thing with wound is it wears off faster than the knife recharges, but 2 commandos can keep it up

weak mulch
#

Does re-applying wound reset it's duration?

ripe siren
#

yes

weak mulch
#

Or is every stack independent

#

Oh lord

ripe siren
#

according to somebody else who tested it, anyway

#

but it should

weak mulch
#

The new and improved merc

ripe siren
#

Keep in mind it isn't easy to get the ball rolling on that

#

Not without command anyway

weak mulch
#

Yeah true

#

And commando isn't a crazy early game survivor

#

Even with shotgun loadout his dmg vs elites/tanky enemies isn't anything to write home about

#

Not early that is

#

The easiest free win is probably putting ame in a chest and playing laser turret engi

#

Or just engi in general

#

(For looping)

#

Idk what straight-to-provi people do

faint nebula
#

Just play sniper 5Head

weak mulch
#

Sniper boring

ripe siren
weak mulch
#

That makes sense bleed is dmg not total dmg

#

So perfect reload scaling it would be weird

ripe siren
#

Rusty Knife is % TOTAL

weak mulch
#

Eh?

ripe siren
weak mulch
#

Oh

#

I had been oblivious to this all along

#

Now test for procs like uke or atg/sticky bomg

#

Also how to all of these interact with brilliant behemoth?

#

Ik that drill interacts with it by putting the explosion on things it pierces and at the end but no idea how multipliers or procs work for it

#

Wish we had a test mode

#

Where we can just add and remove items

ripe siren
#

I tried it for a couple minutes and realized I'd need a better test.

night python
weak mulch
#

Exponentially harder in fact

ripe siren
#

No quadratically

weak mulch
#

Same difference

night python
#

The wound hit can also proc items

#

If the hit that procced wound can proc anyway

ripe siren
#

(jk being pedantic again)

weak mulch
#

The point is the scaling is ridiculous

night python
#

The best scaler in the game

weak mulch
#

But base commando is so-so

#

So it makes up for it

night python
#

I mean FMJ
Pretty good

#

Suppressive not really

weak mulch
#

As I said so-so

night python
#

But FMJ is one of the better skills in the game

weak mulch
#

He's not bad but he's not on the level of ame engi or alt merc

#

Or laser cyclone huntress

night python
#

Hit everything in a line on a 3 second cooldown
Every hit can proc
Does good damage

#

FMJ shotgun isn't a bad loadout

#

But if you can manage to group everything up and live during that process
Knife shotgun kills everything

weak mulch
#

My criteria for judgement is how easily a survivor's loadout can get them started into a looped god run

#

And commando isn't bad nor great for the early to mid stages until he gets some key items

coral bobcat
#

Knife shotgun will kill anything that gets in range and doesn't win the quickdraw, FMJ shotgun has a tool for basically every grounded situation

#

Single target distance? It has double tap, multitarget in a wide spread or at a distance, FMJ, either up close, shotgun blast

#

Commando in this one's a bit of an all rounder with specialization in items, as iirc both shotgun and fmj have independent item proccing capacity, unlike something like Dice which only has item proc for the first hit on an enemy

clear crystal
#

ok maybe not goat, but its a lot better than it lets on

hard valve
#

flamethrower pretty much takes up the entirety of her power budget so a lot of the times running away and waiting for flamethrower cd is the best option

#

what the fuck are you gonna do

#

throw your worthless chakrams and miss them

#

throw your barely lethal nanobomb

#

flamethrower with shattered reflection is how I play artificer

#

also it opens up tectonic surge

glacial jewel
#

whats today topic?

bright geyser
#

thank the devs for the beautiful game they gave us

inner pumice
#

also ice wall goes crazy

rich dagger
#

Yo guys chill

#

10k messages

hard valve
#

ice wall has no execute zzz

digital pilot
#

nano stun is like 4 seconds long

inner pumice
#

Like what? Ion bomb stun lasts a really long time

hard valve
#

that's because you use it on lemurians duh (just flamethrower them away)

inner pumice
#

No? 😭 Even on fuckin frenzied crabs they stay stunned long enough for like 2 volleys

#

I don't have better comparisons I mostly played her on Judgement

digital pilot
#

yeah it gets the full duration on any enemy you can stun, even stuff like imp overlords
elites take less stun but you can still get a chakram volley off on them

#

i haven't been playing a ton of arti lately because the accessibility setting to auto-mash certain primaries doesn't work properly on chakrams atm but she's absolutely a viable pick

inner bloom
#

its not long enough

#

just because it stuns them for long enough for your projectile to hit them

inner pumice
#

I literally played judgement sharti bruh

inner bloom
#

deos not mean its consequential

#

idc

inner pumice
#

she is really good

inner bloom
#

she isnt

inner pumice
#

one of the best in terms of dps

#

and her ability to deal tons of damage while safe is unrivaled

#

(Wall + ion bomb + flamethrower)

digital pilot
#

arti is one of the weaker characters but the gap between her and others is very small

inner pumice
#

she nearly instakills a colossus wdym

#

Flamethrower + like 2 volleys of chakrams

digital pilot
#

she's not a braindead character like drifter or loader but she can be very powerful if played properly

#

arti's weak point isn't her damage output, it's her durability

inner pumice
#

well yeah shes a glass cannon isnt she

digital pilot
#

as she is, yeah
i'd say she leans a little too far towards the glass side of that equation - not much, and not enough to make her bad, but she takes a bit more skill and composure than most characters

#

i'd probably just give her better regen/regen scaling if anything

#

most of the stuff that really destroys her is overtuned in general and just as much of a pain for other chars

long skiff
inner pumice
#

Ok so like, 2 more chakram volleys

bright geyser
#

yea honestly arti isnt bad just different

inner pumice
#

She just takes a little more skill than most survivors and everyone hates her because of it

long skiff
#

I agree

hard valve
#

the thing is comboing takes time

#

you get hit during said time

#

if you run away and just use the good parts of the combo instead you don't get hit

#

flamethrower makes up 70% of your damage anyways it's a bargain

#

doesn't help that you basically have to stay in melee range to land chakrams

inner pumice
#

You drop an ice wall, Ion bomb, chakrams and flamethrower all at once pretty much

hard valve
#

melee characters go melee because they have iframes or aren't melee but has it as a defensive option (acrid) or are melee but don't use primary (mercenary, han-d)

#

(acrid outranges you tho)

hard valve
#

me slamming my keyboard to smithereens to deal 80% of an elder lemurian's healthbar

#

(flamethrower did 60% of the work)

#

you know if you could manually detonate local sun I would probably use that over flamethrower

bright geyser
#

manual detonate on sun would be too much

lofty valley
#

Who the fuck plays han-d without using primary

bright geyser
#

with melee i thinks its just weaving in and out of combat

hard valve
#

just wait out disassembly cd

#

you go punch an overloading magma worm

bright geyser
#

well duh you have to make sure its safe to go in.

hard valve
#

yeah. And since you don't have iframes it's not safe

#

I only punch to farm drones rlly

#

once I got the drones I just clear with them

clear crystal
#

the arti talk should stay here. not a thread meant to be about the abilities being good

dire rover
#

the talk was relevent to your thread..

weak mulch
#

@ripe siren crude proof that acrid + commando would have a higher overall scaling than 2 commandos

image.png
#

since there is more multipliers for wound to double dip on assuming both characters hit the theoretical attack speed cap (1 attack per frame) so 3000% on one commando and 6000% on 2 of them

#

kinda referring to a very old discussion that happened here but my OCD wouldn't let me not calculate it to confirm my theory

regal totem
#

...and this is in a thread about balancing arti because...?

inland rover
#

theres been a lot discussed here

weak mulch
grim junco
#

i think the moderators should just make this its own channel at this point

weak mulch
#

true

ripe siren
scarlet ether
#

general chat 3

brave rune
#

Does increasing attack speed do anything for how fast the Artificer hovers around while using Flamethrower?

coral bobcat
#

I thiiink that'd fall under movement speed?

rich dagger
brave rune
#

Mm, that makes sense since it would cause the animation to finish quicker, I figure, but I'm not sure if it'd impact hover speed as well.

digital pilot
#

iirc flamethrower gets more hits with attack speed

thin hemlock
#

No artificer discussion allowed to the artificer thread

clear crystal
#

so anyway engie alt turret amiright

digital pilot
#

what's the deal with airline food

bright geyser
brave rune
digital pilot
#

a few skills do
commando default special and han-d alt special definitely do
eviscerate doesn't, there are a few i'm not entirely sure about like arti alt special
drifter alt utility acts very weird afaik (the entire attack goes on longer but idk if the rate at which hits are done speeds up) and is probably bugged

weak mulch
#

commando default special doesn't IIRC

#

it's just that if you have wicked ring and enough crit you can eventually use it as if it was a constant stream of attacks

#

with some attack speed

coarse bear
#

Confirmed by devs

weak mulch
#

hmm I'll be damned then, did not feel like it for sure

velvet nova
#

it does, it just doesn't scale very much so you need a lot of attack speed to notice it

distant osprey
#

It would be sick if the local sun only moved when the button for it was held cuz like goddamn it’s annoying doing the left right shuffle with it

honest haven
#

Very controversial opinion, I like how she plays

brave rune
#

It'd be neat if her Ice Wall was properly solid similar to Ifrit's and could get more durable over time. But maybe mods can fill the gap there eventually.

night python
#

I had to hold page up for 2 minutes to get to the top of this thread

grim junco
#

apparently this thread seems to be pre arti being bad... so i guess people think she is still bad?

#

imo she has been fixed and is very fun to play

night python
#

This was like a day or two after release

grim junco
#

i figured seeing what the original post said

inner bloom
#

when was she updated?

grim junco
#

1.0.3 her primary got fixed

#

and bug fixes

thick nest
#

i think shes pretty good now, i think the only thing id like to see is maybe stun scaling with the charge of default m2, and a default 2 stock for tectonic surge

regal totem
#

The issues with the Stun on nano are imo a general game problem. Stun being less effective against Elites, while it makes sense on paper, in reality just makes it suck in CC. I still think the sweetspot gimmick has no place in a 2D game

thick nest
#

imo the sweetspot only makes sense in a 2d game

#

would be much much harder to make feel anywhere near as good in a 3d one see: ror2 arti flamethrower range being completely underestimated

#

and i think its applied well

bright geyser
#

The sweet spot is pretty easy to get most of the time anyway.

thick nest
#

with the m1 bugfix even not using the sweetspot religiously you can do as well as most other survivors

#

i think if alt secondary did more damage than default secondary i wouldn't take it still bcuz i think stun is pretty valuable even with elites lacking the length

#

its usually enough to get a couple chakras in

thick nest
ripe siren
#

Knockback doesn't have the same problem, either, so it's far more reliable

#

For e.g. HAN-D's primary

regal totem
#

Sweetspots imo only make sense if it's an epicenter gimmick, as in "do x in the area, the center does bonus." The lack of ignite anywhere other than the sweetspots and the complete lack of hitstun on the chakrams still makes it very clunky to use properly. Using the Sweetspot doesn't have to be hard to be bad

#

Ultimately, sweetspots just lie about what your actual range is, and that's just bad design

digital pilot
#

chakrams are meant to be used in conjunction with your secondary and utility
the dependence on the sweetspot is the entire point of chakram as a skill

clear crystal
#

even then once the hordes are big just throwing them out there as you run away ur likely to get all of the 5 burn hits off anyway. its ironic because they feel like good crowd damage when they actually scale pretty poorly with crowds because only the send and return hitboxes have pierce and each chakram only rolls for procs on one hit, yet the burn, which is most of chakrams damage, cant pierce or proc at all.

#

thinking about this more. id actually pose that the sweetspot becomes less important as you get later into a run. for context, the pierce on send and return do 45% each, while the burn does 300%, #1172256920745295993 message if against a crowd of say, 20 enemies, having them grouped up amd hitting them all with both pierce hits, (ignoring potential procs), would be 90% x 20 = 1800%, while the 5 burn hits are still totalling only 300% since they cant pierce, hitting only 1 enemy each.

not much a point to this, just an observation on the weird chakram mechanics

scarlet ether
#

now that im finally, under the legal definition, good at artificer, i can say some more involved thoughts on her alt kit and what could be done to help it out a bit

pulse arrow: by far her worst skill. the arrow is slow, which isn't exactly new for her secondary, but the way it works with backup mags makes it extremely hard to use if you have any since it has a pretty long casting animation, and its stun seems very inconsistent (does it even have a stun? i honestly couldn't tell). i wouldn't mind if it stunned for about half as long as nanobomb because its potential to proc on-hit effects is theoretically good

#

tectonic surge: fine mobility tool but i never actually used the platform, not really much to say about it honestly

#

localized sun: i mostly used this to pepper enemies out of reach that i couldn't really deal with up close, but against flying enemies arti's entire game plan kinda fell apart and i couldn't use this effectively against them at all (had to rely on pulse arrow and my active item). feels very awkward with three red whips which i got in my run lol, but i even found it to have a bit of chip damage for providence which was nice (i always play that fight like a sissy)

#

you can use localized sun in pretty similar situations to flamethrower honestly, it just lacks the height and "safety" that her main special gives you. it doesn't tend to do enough damage to stagger so you end up having to kite a lot, i think my space bar is in pain

clear crystal
# scarlet ether now that im finally, under the legal definition, good at artificer, i can say so...

pulse: i agree her secondaries feel a little lackluster and the backup mag thing is unfortunate. it stuns if you don't pulse and it only fizzles out if it exits hurbox area so if enemies are in a tight line it can stun a bunch. best use imo tho is for damage, since against lines of enemies you can spam pulse and itll keep hitting new enemies and stay alive as a result (each pulse doing 450%). i think i need to get better at using it personally but idk.

tectonic. the plat is good for standing out of reach of hordes and hitting them with sun. for many enemies single jump height is good enough, in other cases you can jump off ropes or cliffs for more distance. the antigrav can be useful for floating around while moving sun left and right across a horde underneath you, just do vertical tec surge, hold jump and you get a good 2ishseconds of floating, a lot better with hopoo, rusty jetpack, photon jetpack since you can combine the effects and it makes antigrav last longer.

sun: many of the ways to use this involve hitting enemies from a safe place, as you mentioned. for hordes its damage is typically good enough on its own, especially with a few on hits, which it scales nicely with. in terms of using it more aggressively, its tough but doable sometimes. using tec surge to gain distance and stun the horde, and either using sun before that or after, plus pulse spear can do good damage. in some cases you can stand on a tec surge plat where taller enemies can get hit chakrams (i.e parents) and you keep the sun below you hitting the horde. in some cases when ur run is strong or you have good vertical mobility you can just spam jump at the horde while you move sun around.

i agree 100% its biggest weakness is flying enemies, since nowhere is safe from them. the best use i found for it against them is if you have good mobility running until you have some space to put it on them for a while. other than that you can really only get it on them for a sec or two before u gotta run

scarlet ether
#

imo it's better to use pulse spear against flying enemies if you're close to them because you really do wanna be running and the sun does Not Like That, but it's pretty much out of necessity of not having any other options. i have seen the spear do some solid cleanup on them before, it's just very hard to use well

sun when they're far away is fine but look out for volatile swifts and stuff, i had to deal with quite a few of those (good thing i had 2 tesla coils)

clear crystal
#

yeah tesla is a godsend for temple lmao. and true on the pulse spear thing, i forget about secondary a lot of times that i should not

scarlet ether
#

overall id say altrificer was kind of a miserable experience and normal arti or 1121 arti is like way more fun

#

not having ice wall for the sun and lacking nano bomb leaves you feeling like a fish out of water much more often than im comfortable with

digital pilot
#

my preferred loadouts are 1111 and 1112

clear crystal
#

i like 1222 a fair bit. sun being as strong as it is on hordes is really fun. having to run from flyers is probly the biggest thing i dislike about it. Dee said (u probly saw), that ice wall is better with sun than tec surge is so i gotta try that, ive always done it with tec surge

#

thinking on it flamer probly has the most leeway to give up ice wall since you can float with it to be safe wheras sun doesnt have that luxury

scarlet ether
#

that's what i was thinking

clear crystal
#

and tec surge works, like floating around or standing on plat, but you cant use other abilities while doing that

scarlet ether
#

plus, sun appreciates the decoy factor from ice wall much more than flamethrower does

#

though for 1112 you won't have a way to get up 2 block ledges 😔

digital pilot
#

flamer has a decent amount of leeway with most enemies, still benefits from wall some though

#

i like having wall for chakrams/nano regardless though

scarlet ether
#

i think nano itself can kinda help chakrams for if you don't have a wall, even uncharged it stuns

clear crystal
#

wall is very versatile yeah. good on any arti kit imo

digital pilot
#

yeah wall is very good in general

scarlet ether
#

but surge is good too, just doesn't mesh that well with some of her skills

digital pilot
#

yeah nano is good for setting up chakrams

#

can also use wall to set up nano

scarlet ether
#

to be honest i beat altrificer specifically so i could be a registered hater without being rebutted by "you just don't know how to play her" but now that i know how to play her i feel empty inside

digital pilot
#

or do stuff like wall -> chakrams -> nano -> chakrams

clear crystal
#

lmao, thats the arti pipeline. at first i thought sun sucked bc i parroted my friend and then i put time into it and was like, wait, its good

scarlet ether
#

she's probably the character that needs the most kiting overall because of all her long ass cooldowns

#

i spent a lot of time running away and throwing back chakrams

digital pilot
#

i don't mind being a pulse spear hater but sun is goated and surge just kinda isn't for me

scarlet ether
#

and because of this id argue that uh yeah

...she's not all that good in the grand scheme of things

clear crystal
#

thats fairly true. you'll be running while doing jump turnaround chakrams a good amount of the time. i think she of everyone requires the most attention on the terrain, since ledges that force enemies to jump which slows them down, ropes, gaps etc can allhelp you get out chakrams and abilities

scarlet ether
#

as far as general efficiency/ease of doing a run

but im not sure if there's necessarily anything wrong with a challenge mode, and her kit actually works

digital pilot
clear crystal
scarlet ether
#

oh yeah funny niche thing i came across

#

localized sun on ladders

digital pilot
#

yeah sun still works normally even if your movement would otherwise be blocked

scarlet ether
#

jump off a ladder, use it, catch yourself on the ladder

#

of course all of this is still a rather slow campy playstyle

digital pilot
#

you don't need to camp super hard with sun

clear crystal
#

yeah if you want to move it up, you jump, fall then climb up, you can move it down more smoothly though by holding down and spamming jump

scarlet ether
#

playing aggressive with sun often just lends to artificer putting herself in a lot of danger, especially with elites resistant to stun

#

you can certainly do it in certain occasions but it's very risky

#

(that is, trying to use sun alongside primary fire on flat terrain)

clear crystal
#

dee said pulse spear is supposed to stun on pulse but doesnt in current patch that will help a good deal with that i think

#

because you can sun > spear > mash pulse to get some safety

#

as of now mash pulse just does damage, and if you want stun you have to not pulse so it fizzles. elites still a problem but the stun is happening much more reliably at least

digital pilot
clear crystal
scarlet ether
#

my damage was definitely falling off a bit lategame (im sure the speed i was going wasn't helping) so it wasn't exactly sweeping away crowds with its damage output

#

I think damage output in general falls off a bit lategame if you don't have many damage items and you kinda just have to cope with it

clear crystal
#

yeah it can be rough getting no good on hits. at least arti has good starting damage ig

scarlet ether
#

pulse spear will be good when it can stun yes

#

probably

#

should certainly help it at least, i literally wrote "it should stun" in my essay not knowing that it's supposed to

digital pilot
#

i do wonder if they're thinking about speed scaling for sun or not
makes some sense but also might make controlling it weird, especially vertically

#

controlling it with speed is also already weird anyways

clear crystal
scarlet ether
#

i do still think in the grand scheme of things arti is like

still vaguely about as good as enforcer

#

(i still don't think enforcer is all that good either)

clear crystal
#

i think hes chill. i struggle to rank characters because my personal mindset for my own play is very much so "just outskill the game lol" but i dont think anyone is deficient right now

scarlet ether
#

my mindset on ranking characters is "how big does my brain have to be to win"

digital pilot
#

i put them both as bottom of the tier list but also in the same "good but not great" tier as several other characters

scarlet ether
#

because obviously everyone and every loadout can beat the game

#

(an all loadouts tier list would still go hard though)

#

shamelessly putting full alt engi in bottom tier (he probably isn't actually that bad but god)

digital pilot
#

yeah both enforcer and arti take a bit of effort to make their kit work and their kit isn't an instant win when it does work

#

meanwhile loader exists

scarlet ether
#

2211 loader 😳

#

"how to make loader not god tier: a primer"

digital pilot
#

any loader loadout that starts with "2" is a shitpost

scarlet ether
#

wait

clear crystal
#

worst loader is probly 2111

digital pilot
#

i tried to give bullet punch an honest look earlier

scarlet ether
#

the long ass stun from alt secondary...

bullet punch charge....

clear crystal
#

i dont think id ever play 2111 unless it was to see how bad it is

scarlet ether
#

yeah it's not worth it

digital pilot
#

bullet punch probably needs 1.25 to 1.5 times its current damage for me to seriously consider it

clear crystal
#

i did 2212 and it was fine. you gotta get good at grapple tech so you can get distance to charge when you dont have short circuit or pylot off cd to rely on but it works, and bullet punch feels horrible early game but seems to scale decently.

scarlet ether
#

wait but consider

#

2112 loader

#

now you can charge your bullet punches... faster!!!!1!1!111

clear crystal
#

need to try it again tho tbh bc i got lucky with a fuckton of drones on that run so they mightve carried with the alt pylon

digital pilot
#

2112 was what i tried

scarlet ether
#

and they're your only method of offense

#

like i guess grapple itself deals damage but

clear crystal
#

i think short circuit is probly better with bullet punch helps with ur single target but i havent tried it with scrap shield so cant say too much

digital pilot
#

you're still winding up for 2 seconds for an attack that can't kill a regular imp

scarlet ether
#

good contender for worst primary maybe

#

it's like pierce but without the range

#

and even pierce isn't that good

clear crystal
#

also you dont need straight up invuln as much with bullet punch since you can grapple momentum tech away to charge at a safe range

digital pilot
#

it has the makings of a decent primary, just not enough damage

scarlet ether
#

why use invincibility when you aren't even going to be close that much

#

or 2111 really

clear crystal
#

#1172256920745295993 message i have not used pierce on huntress but i trust ae when they say this they seem very knowledgeable

scarlet ether
#

i noticed it actually doesn't hurt enemies that are directly in front of you

#

which is kinda weird

#

i think the hitbox on it just starts a short distance away from you? something to keep in mind

#

im not a big fan of huntress's auto aim anyway (it's honestly why i don't like her much) so i could try, like, 2111 later

clear crystal
scarlet ether
#

knew i wasn't crazy

clear crystal
#

yeah i also dont like the autoaim much

#

that blindspot is wacky tho

scarlet ether
#

definitely, i think it makes sense in the ability's intent but unsure if it's a bug or a feature

clear crystal
#

hard to tell. warp arrow also spawns above where it visually looks like it should be. makes it very easy to accidently slam it into a cieling if ur jumping around during the trial but doesnt have much impact in normal play

scarlet ether
#

ok but i will admit one thing about arti

#

she suuuuuucks in multiplayer

#

it's not even necessarily because of her speed making her struggle to get items, the pace of multiple targets around just makes things so much harder for her to micromanage

#

and sun on any ping is a miserable experience (kinda like cyclone)

#

default arti or 1121 for more mobility seems like the play if you wanna use her in multiplayer, just so you can keep up with the pace, but it's definitely a lot messier with friends

clear crystal
#

all my friends abandoned the game so i wouldnt know 🥲

oak wing
#

Even though it took me forever to get a monsoon win as arti, I struggle to put the blame entirely on her kit

#

I dislike chakrams needing secondary and utility to get their full damage off but I dont know if thats actually an issue

#

Chakrams do less damage than other primaries without assistance from stuff built into arti's kit which is the point

#

Artificer has always been a combo character, using skills in conjunction with other skills is by design

#

The most I can see doing for arti is adjusting her base stats and stat growths and at most maybe another chakram and ice wall buff so they do more with less need for secondary and utility (also nerfing elite stun resistance)

digital pilot
#

i think the main thing she needs is better regen

#

i really like how her skills are interdependent on one another and think she has a really unique and interesting playstyle but she's desperate for defensive/healing items and it's often hard for her to recover if she gets put on the back foot

oak wing
#

Which isnt too irregular, the same often happens with the melee characters since theyre in just as dangerous positions as arti is, she just has a higher skill floor

digital pilot
#

yeah arti has the stats of a ranged character

#

enforcer kinda does too but that doesn't really matter because shield

inland rover
#

enforcer still has good regen too

digital pilot
#

enforcer has better base regen than ranged characters but the same regen scaling

#

outside of that he's mostly got ranged character stats

night python
#

I hate the stat inconsistency in this game

oak wing
#

Sniper and enforcer have nearly identical scaling except for damage and maybe regen

glacial jewel
#

enforcer has more health while sniper has more regen

#

armor is equal and sniper is faster by 2 points

#

thats plenty scaling differences

inland rover
#

Sniper has more damage too iic

glacial jewel
#

scaling and base if i am correct

digital pilot
#

tied for highest in both
former with robo, latter with robo and pilot

oak wing
#

Bandit also has +4 damage scaling

#

Also just checked something

#

Enforcer has +34 ho per per level, sniper has +33

#

For some reason, sniper has +0.24 regen per level and enforcer has +0.12

#

I have no idea why sniper needs that much regen compared to the guy who is made to face tank everything vs the character who will be running very far away to deal high amounts of damage

civic dock
#

he even has higher than average speed

oak wing
#

Having slightly higher speed imo makes sense so you can more easily distance yourself from enemies

civic dock
#

its true, but when you combine it with every other stat being so great, things start to get silly

#

even moreso when he already has one of the best i-frame dashes in the game

oak wing
#

Its amazing how they just rounded out the edges of sniper in this game and now they're considered one of the best characters in the game

scarlet ether
#

sniper was already really good in ror1 tbh

oak wing
#

Yea, feels like people slept on them though

lofty valley
#

Can no longer see the edge of sniper's range even at 1x zoom

clear crystal
#

i didnt even know steady aim had a range limit until i saw it come from another player offscreen in multiplayer today lmao

night python
#

They gave him more mobility than most of the cast and increased movement speed

#

And you can jump while charging

#

They increased his mobility and control by like 4x

#

Also technically buffed his damage because the global .8x multiplier is gone

#

These aren't minor "rounding out"-s
These are huge buffs

#

Also
Every hit is capable of proccing
Instead of hitting a crowd and getting 1 atg you can get several

oak wing
#

They also did this for the entire cast

#

Everyone can move a bit more

#

Engi can now maintain momentum while using missiles instead of being locked into his position as soon as he hits the grown

#

Steafing

#

Strafing*

#

More but Im about to shower

night python
#

There's a difference between "a bit" and "Charging is now a fucking mobility skill"

scarlet ether
#

technically they increased miner's mobility a lot too

night python
#

Steady aim
Became a mobility skill
Between games

scarlet ether
#

burnout is a mobility skill if you bhop out of drill dash

#

loader has a lot of extra mobility as well, it has to do with friction being added (which does sorta make platforming harder but oh well)

oak wing
#

Besides for backflip letting you slide (due to friction) and being able to jump during steady aim, sniper really doesnt have much ability to move and attack like everyone else (this might be also why they buffed sniper's default speed)

#

They also toned down enemy health scaling which buffed everyone's damage

#

And this game is still difficult despite that, arguably as if not more difficult than ror1

#

Like I never saw blighted spitters previously

clear crystal
#

i think im back to believing ice wall isnt great with sun. maybe its a skissue bc i dont feel like im playing amazingly right now, and ill try it again when my brain is more braining, but it feels like with ice wall sometimes you put it down and then you gotta run like 2 seconds after because its tele event and enemies are spawning all around you. then your left with wall on cd, sun, which provides no safety in and of itself, and your secondary, which, if pulse spear worked as intended, might help more, but as of now is not gonna do much in the way of crowd control. so you just run away throwing chakrams when you can until you have cds again, maybe you can camp a rope or a ledge or something, maybe not, considering stuff is spawning on you

with flamer though you can make use of the hover to keep yourself safe while using it, so its more viable when util is on cd, and it gets more value in a short time than sun does if i had to guess. similarly, I think tec surge works well with sun because its able to provide more long term safety to get the sun out there, especially in the earlier stages when fliers aren't around.

oak wing
#

Sometimes you have to not commit to getting all of sun's damage off but that can also be said of flamethrower

night python
inner pumice
#

btw for those that arent aware
pulse spear does stun the exact same way as ion bomb

#

doesnt say it in the description but it does in fact stun

weak mulch
#

I'd honestly say he's the 3rd most mobile after miner

night python
#

5th is just approximation out of my ass ninjutsu

inner pumice
#

why is mando in front of merc

night python
#

Pilot's definitely number 1
Loader's up next because ecks dee movement tech
Miner
Blast Drone HAN-D
Uhhh sniper
So like 5th

#

Commando definitely ain't in front of sniper

scarlet ether
#

miner is more mobile than loader imo

#

if we consider his whole kit alt secondary is insane for it

night python
#

Loader and pilot can cross a stage in 5 seconds
Miner can't

#

HAN-D also can but he needs kills first

inner pumice
#

hand has zero vertical mobility though

night python
#

So?

inland rover
#

huntress is pretty damn mobile

inner pumice
#

i mean i feel like if you're talking about mobility in general, vertical mobility should be considered

inland rover
#

huntress also has some kind of movement tech on pierce recoil

#

i have no idea how to get it to work reliably but it can launch you backwards at mach 20

#

also warp dart

night python
#

Does she have movement tech?

inland rover
#

im sure she does

night python
#

This is my first time hearing about her being able to fling herself at mach 5

inland rover
#

nobody seems to use pierce bc cyclone this cyclone that

#

and tbf cyclone is good

#

ive had it happen on accident on occasion but im sure she can fling herself backwards

#

i have no idea how to replicate it but its happened more than once

night python
#

Laser cyclone is just like the single best ability in the game
The entire fucking survivor could be laser cyclone with no other abilities and she'd still be really good

inland rover
#

yeah its worthy of overshadowing basically every other huntress skill

#

but theres some good shit in the other alts

#

pierce feels like "what if you took sniper m2, made it slightly more mobile, took away its cooldown and let it shoot through terrain without a penalty for hitting multiple targets"

night python
#

And lowered its damage and made it a projectile
With no falloff

inland rover
#

yeah

#

its kind of ridiculuos in its own way

#

and then strap on some movement tech for shits and giggles

night python
#

Huntress alts try not to be completely fucking stupid challenge

#

Literally impossible

inland rover
#

i mean
its hard to make huntress alts good without making them busted like they are since she works so reliably with basically no effort already

#

they couldve at least tried a little tho

#

it is interesting that warp dart was considered in development to be one of the best abilities in the game and its just completely overshadowed by the other 2 alts of the same character

#

at least thats what i heard

clear crystal
#

the damage on cyclone might be a genuine mistake instead of wrong description moment, though people whove used it say itd still be broken at 50% dmg so idk lol

night python
#

It would be yes

#

Nothing about the story changes from the damage being halved

weak mulch
#

unless you're playing base dash merc in which case stop doing that

inner pumice
#

counterpoint merc has vertical mobility

weak mulch
#

and even then he's only faster if you get the resets off

weak mulch
#

(jk)

#

on a more serious note hmm

#

merc's vertical mobility is okay but I think commando will still traverse a bit faster on average

#

idk it always feels like mando zooms

#

but I think all of the survivors I named are very close together

#

except for pilot because WaVe DaSh

weak mulch
inner pumice
#

i hate wavedash

night python
#

You hop in the air and spam the button
Or something
Idk I haven't actually done it

#

I always just use speed drones

weak mulch
#

speed drones + chainsaw is fun

weak mulch
inner pumice
#

clipping into terrain

#

also no funny parachute floating

inland rover
#

theres no manual for the Han-D model

#

you kind of just
get it

#

or you dont

#

i dont know how else to really describe it

#

but in general you do abuse jumping to lead into attacks

#

especially the hammer

#

or you sit in front a scavenger and watch him cope with the m1 button held down

#

also for the base kit at least you use m2 when you run away to keep yourself healthy

scarlet ether
#

ok ive finally found the true counterargument to "loader has better mobility than miner"

#

loader has the lowest base movement speed in the game at 2.4 while miner has 2.8

inland rover
#

miner can fly

#

i think thats good enough mobility

#

loader can slingshot yes
but loader can not straight up fly

grim junco
inner pumice
#

why would they nerf it like that wtf that would suck

night python
#

The main problem is how much it does on top of how fucking reliable it is
It has 100% uptime on top of being good enough to be your main damage without a problem

bright geyser
#

i mean i dont think its necessarily a problem if its able to stay up forever i think thats part of the fun

#

really it just needs to be nerfed in damage

#

maybe make it move faster but still

#

making it exponentially faster as it continues could be good tho

civic dock
#

for example most m1 holders need to stop and become slow to fire continuously

#

sniper can straight up just shoot and reload while riding his jumps, its not constant so you can just be moving half the time

#

if you wait just bit before the reload then you can basically shoot while constantly moving

oak wing
#

Other characters can also jump and attack, to bypass movement penalties/strafe speed

civic dock
#

yeah but many of them have to sacrifice something for it

#

if you stop holding a sustained m1 to jump and turn and etc, youre losing damage output

coral bobcat
#

Because sniper's a burst damage character, any time M2 is on cooldown or charge up, no dps is actually being lost as long as you reload correctly

#

Sniper slide hopping allows sniper to move very extreme distances without losing out on dps as a result

fair ridge
#

If you bunny hop without doing any directional input you can slingshot yourself very violently across the map. You can do some hilarious and unexpected things by turning on auto jump and not moving.
Pilot's dash, handy's c4 drones, huntress' charged bow, miner just in general.

#

This vid breaks it down pretty well.

#

If arti could jump and fire downwards kind of like pilot can, and maintain some of that aerial distance, it would help a lot on top of making it a lot more like the ror2 arti.

#

Or holding up to aim ball/spear 45 degrees upward kind of like loader's gauntlet

#

Air enemies are a nuisance as arti

lofty valley
granite fjord
#

small dmg increase to her whole kit besides flamethrower always have burn on fire and return of m1 and then i feel like the only thing shes missing is movement but her kit doesnt allow for movement really so dont have any movement suggestions (would be cool for a alternetive jump and or decreased gravity on her jump to match the theme of arti)

weak mulch
grim junco
weak mulch
#

Igggg, it's work if it also didn't stop the cooldown of cyclone while one of them is out

#

so at least you've have a tangible advancatge from having mags

grim junco
#

if cooldown continued while it was out then it would make it useless

weak mulch
#

eh dunno, personally I'd not touch the ability

#

risk of rain has always had some broken skills

night python
#

I'd reduce the damage to the listed number and maybe reduce the hit rate to 3 a second instead of 4 or whatever it is now

#

It's always going to be the most reliable thing in the game

#

No point in fighting that

grim junco
night python
#

But the fact it can hit so many things at once
So often
With good damage

#

And every one of those hits can proc things like leeching seed

#

Yeah no sorry
Too much

#

You have like
the rest of your kit in the game

grim junco
night python
#

As it is right now laser cyclone does more than the rest of your kit combined and multiplied by 2

weak mulch
#

iframes vs slightly better mobility

grim junco
#

i meant in 2

weak mulch
#

OH

#

doesn't it give iframes in 2 too?

#

can't remember

grim junco
#

sadly no

weak mulch
#

ah

#

welp

#

it gives you a mnimimally better horizontal mobility while in air Ig?

grim junco
#

ya

weak mulch
#

rolling in the air moves you farther in 2 whan using slide to get that small oomf forward with slide

night python
#

Roll does
Jank.
Things.

#

In 2

#

It's better in the air as a straight away
It resets all momentum in favor of roll
This includes jump pads and the like

#

You can trimp up vertical walls

grim junco
#

i found out that you can sort of do the same thing merc does with whirlwind but it doesnt go nearly as high