Alpine Faction

[brave crown]

Huh? O.o

[desert crown]

One second

ill show it off

[brave crown]

oh wait, if the ammo pickup would exceed your max ammo at the time you pick it up, you get less from it because you dont have room. is that what you mean?

that would happen if you were mid reload but not yet at the point in the reload where the ammo count changes

[desert crown]

i don't think thats it

because it happens in caves, with the smg, when you are 100% below the cap

you can also go up above 16 ammo in admin

like that is not the cap

[brave crown]

hm. Can you record it in a time you're not undercover

[desert crown]

sure hang on

[brave crown]

the undercover state changes a bunch of weird stuff that i dont fully know about yet

so somewhere else would be more reliable

[desert crown]

you would need to have 90 ammo to go back to 60 lol

[wraith comet]

Undercover does exhibit a ton of weird behavior from my various weird tests. What's some stuff you noticed?

[brave crown]

Not being able to pick up weapons other than pistols (despite the game clearly being built for you to do so, given the pickups in the guard stations in admin) is the main one

@crude oyster did you want to give the new lighting a try and see how it may impact maps with huge meshes?

(also I wouldn't hate it if you'd give the RED texture subdirectory support and the other RED fixes I've implemented a try too)

[desert crown]

I have to wonder

You think they tried to retro fit the option the cancelled it

unless it was just

good continuity

to have the guns there

[brave crown]

there was a lot cut/changed from that section

[desert crown]

but stealth was definitely the first option

which they backtracked for medlabs

[brave crown]

there's an elevator in L6S3 for example that has load level events rigged up but inaccessible

there's definitely stuff they had planned and either cut or changed fairly hastily

[desert crown]

so i just wonder if, they thought about it

as in, reapplying the lack of stealth as an option

and just never comitted

[crude oyster]

I will, but not for a couple days still. 😛

[gaunt lotus]

i'm not sure that the weapons in that area not being grabable is actually a bug though

[desert crown]

thats what i mean

[gaunt lotus]

it makes some design sense to have them in the armory for $lore and not allow the player to take them

[desert crown]

i wonder if it was just good continuity

[brave crown]

I wouldn't describe it as a bug, but I think it's a pretty good bet that there was something in the hopper about being able to exit stealth and take them

You could be right though

[brave crown]

Sure no worries 🙂 I won't send you a build now then because it'll probably have changed by then 😛 but let me know when you're ready and I will

[gaunt lotus]

for that kind of thing i don't know if we'd ever have a way to determine a) was it a mistake or b) did they want the meshes in there to "tease" the player and just not allow them to take them?

[desert crown]

i mean it is a bit of a tease 😂

to be fair

its kind of ok on the 3rd level

idk if most people realised but once you get the enviro armour back on you can just go back and pick up the AR from the security room

but ofc, its just a replica of the first 2 levels so, its probable just a copy paste

[wraith comet]

I always thought they placed them there as props?

[gaunt lotus]

team prop vs team bug conspiracy

the truth is that john slagel fucked that map up in the code just to fuck with everyone

[desert crown]

imagine 😂

I am choosing to believe in the retro fit

But also the continuity

it was already planned but im 100% sure once they'd decided force steahlth was bad they atleast thought about retro fitting the option

[thorny pumice]

The ammo count actually goes a little weird when you walk over it, so you do pick it up and the ammo count goes up correctly, but I suspect you're being caught by a timing/math issue.

I.E.

You have 20 capacity in your clip when you press reload, The game checks you have ammo and what you would drop down to if you complete the reload, begins the reload animation... you pickup ammo midway through fine, then the game says "Reload complete", apply the ammo figure from the start of the reload animation.

It's not re-calculating the new numbers after picking up the ammo, so you used 44 bullets in the process of reloading 20 into the chamber.

Which just so happens to be the amount you picked up.

@brave crown I think that's the issue, above

[desert crown]

this would make sense if it was a consistant problem 🙁

[brave crown]

well this is interesting... I'm not sure how those screens are doing fullbright but it seems like theres at least 2 different ways to do it on meshes 😛 Those blue pieces are fullbright and work, but the screens don't work O.o

[brave crown]

yeah looking at the video, i think youre probably right. Will look into it 🙂 Thanks!

to confirm @desert crown that video was on v1.2.2 yes?

[desert crown]

yep

both the admin one and the caverns

both 1.2.2

[thorny pumice]

Could be down to timing, or something specific to the situation. Both weapons have "custom" second fire that alters the gun, so may be due to the way it is applying that logic at the time.

[desert crown]

i don't see how that affects anything given it doesn't apply to the alt fire

[thorny pumice]

Either way, numbers wise I'm 99% confident it's due to the time it calculates is ahead of the pickup.

[thorny pumice]

What I mean, is V may have decided to pre-calculate due to the way the guns function, I'm not sure.

[desert crown]

its just extremely inconsistent, except for the undercover, that one is constant

[thorny pumice]

One other thing, probably not, but it could be just a display issue? If you fire some more bullets and do a reload do the numbers jump?

[desert crown]

no

[brave crown]

this would have surprisedme (in SP I mean - in MP it happens all the time)

[brave crown]

alright I think RF2-style geomod and breakable detail brushes are ready to go 🥳

[desert crown]

i mean i personally love the little bounces the broken pillar does 😝

[brave crown]

lol

i mean its kinda dorky, but it's using the stock game's physics for separated solids haha

[desert crown]

😛

[brave crown]

I didnt change that part, I just modified it so it applies to RF2-style geo (geoable brushes) rather than elements of the main world

I'm super thrilled with out well the fragmenting of breakable detail brushes works

real-time fragmenting of brushes the mapper put in the level is pretty great

those little spheres on the ground are brushes made in RED, not meshes from Blender, in case that wasn't totally clear :p

it's not pre-built debris

[desert crown]

i know that 😄

but maybe others don't

[brave crown]

I really need some testers for these features - they're currently separate but obviously will eventually be merged. Need to be on the lookout for any unexpected weirdness in either MP or SP

to note - the lights and shadows are d3d11 only.

For the lights, just ensure you have r_meshlighting turned on. I'd suggest also turning r_fullbright off, if you have it on

For the shadows, here are the config settings:
r_shadowquality 0-5
r_shadowdistance 0-5
r_shadowitems
r_shadowcorpses

If you notice anything strange please let me know. I want these to be solid before they're merged into the main Alpine 🙂

[wraith comet]

Neat. I'll try to do that today if I can.

[boreal ether]

Hmm is there an invisible apc there? its still to come through the door. shadow looks like it

[brave crown]

😮

There is one there but it's hidden. Interesting that the shadow filter is picking it up

[boreal ether]

settings are set at 5 for r_shadowdistance r_shadowquality

[brave crown]

thx

[boreal ether]

also when you pick up bodies, the corpse shadow still remains until you throw it down

[brave crown]

thx, appreciate the feedback, will look into those

[silk tinsel]

that can work as a crime scene body outliner lol

[boreal ether]

turret heads appear darker?

[brave crown]

this i expect will be handled by the new lighting

[boreal ether]

same with CCTV camera

[brave crown]

the camera entity you mean?

[boreal ether]

yeh

awe man no shadow on this guy

[brave crown]

he's too far off the ground :p

[boreal ether]

had issue clipping into sub while exit, working now though.

also sub interior at teh bottom is out of frame?

[brave crown]

that's not related to the shadows - it does happen sometimes anyway based on the direction the sub is pointing. Is an annoying issue that should be fixed at some point though

[brave crown]

yeah this is because the cockpit mesh was built for 4:3 :p it's a side effect of widescreen FOV. Could be fixed but it would make it look really stretched - IMO it looks better as-is than it would being all stretched and skewed

[boreal ether]

level far clip is screwed ?

[brave crown]

oh thats interesting

hm

[boreal ether]

appears on while on the inside and outside of sub

cutscene shadow remains after scene

[brave crown]

thats probably the same as the APC - entities are still there but hidden

[boreal ether]

split shadow on jeep, dont think there is anything you can do with that though

also noticed a not critical bug while in heehoo mode, shoot then push crouch put the gun in a cycle loop

[brave crown]

thats interesting lol

wait hang on

i think youre out of the level there

the ammo isnt going down

[boreal ether]

does it with other weapons

something to do with heehoo, no really an issue im insdie the level when it happens

[glacial storm]

As I expected, the new lighting has reduced performance on my end.

I'll just accept the fact that my PC isn't built for this. 🥲

[brave crown]

yeah unfortunately it really isn't a surprise that the performance is worse in D3D11 for you 🙁

You should be able to get back to the way it was previously by turning off r_meshlighting, though

[glacial storm]

Yeah I did get the performance back with turning it off.

On the brightside, the shadows seem to work without causing any drops. But they are still DX11 only, where I have transparency/ underwater fps drops. 😔

[brave crown]

👀

@crude oyster FYI ^

[desert crown]

there's a mesh in your holes

[brave crown]

RED's geometry tools annoy me regularly :p

[desert crown]

so what am i missing here, is there a reason we're just deleting faces and making holes? 😛

[brave crown]

every one of the tools I use in this video (other than moving verticies) didn't exist before now

[desert crown]

ohhhh

[brave crown]

face delete, delete ext, split, flip normals, and vertex delete and bridge

[desert crown]

so its not the purpose to delete and make holes?

XD

[brave crown]

well it could be depending on what you're doing

[desert crown]

can we turn RED into Blender thanks

[brave crown]

creating holes in air brushes probably not lol

but creating holes in detail brushes used for terrain or objects or whatever could be very useful

there have been many times working with strange geometry (like when doing terrain in Kava) where I wanted tools like this

[desert crown]

i do think these tools will be of very special interest to @burnt parcel

[brave crown]

I expect so :p

if there are other like basic geometry operations that could be added to face/vertex mode and would be extremely useful too, let me know

[desert crown]

could you add the functionality for the double tap of G to slide vertices

[brave crown]

from a programatic perspective this isnt super difficult, but for a mapper they can save hours of work, or make things possible that weren't before

[brave crown]

hm?

[desert crown]

hang on

[brave crown]

isn't that extrude

[desert crown]

nah one second

[brave crown]

i also definitely want to implement brush mirroring at this point, ironically finding space on the bridge mode panel is the hardest part of that at this point lol

[burnt parcel]

This is very cool. Gives way more control

[burnt parcel]

Also if I ever get mad at my design, I can just punch a hole in my level on purpose

[desert crown]

when you double tap G, it allows you to drag vertices between other vertices, with snapping and vertex merging on, it replaces/joins the vertices together

[brave crown]

so it's axis-aligned movement plus merging verticies that occupy the same location?

[desert crown]

yeah

you'd need to turn on vertex merging in blender to do it

[burnt parcel]

Its more than axis

[desert crown]

its between whatever vertex its between

so it can go in whatever direction, towards the vertex you move the mouse to

[burnt parcel]

Its local axis of each vert, so it holds its local vert shape

[brave crown]

oh I see

[desert crown]

uhh

[brave crown]

but wait, excluding the vertex merging piece because that's separate, can't you already do that in red with local coords? 😮

[burnt parcel]

If you have a 45 degree angle, it will let you push and pull a vert along one of its lines

Yes

[burnt parcel]

The double tap g thing is just super convenient. It auto selects local axis and merges verts that overlap

[desert crown]

well im not as familiar with the vertex tools so, i wouldn't have remembered that 😅

[burnt parcel]

Honestly, just having the basic controls like you have done enables all of that manually. We didn't have as many choices before, so big big win

[desert crown]

^^

[brave crown]

yeah im far more concerned with functionality currently rather than hotkeys 😛 those are (comparatively) dead simple and can be done at any time. Plus my long-term goal is to allow hotkeys to be customized anyway :p

[desert crown]

sorry 😛

it was the first thing that came to mind when it comes to movement because its so much smoother to do that in blender than in RED

Edge Slide is the same thing but for edges over vertices

can move it in the directions between its neighbouring edges

[wraith comet]

I intend to make properly fixed cockpit meshes that don't stretch.

I was actually meaning to do that for a long time, but you finally have given me the ability to do so with the amazing work you and everyone else has been doing lately.

Will also be working on finally fixing the silencer mesh.

What would be the best way to contribute them? Would they work fine if they were drop-in replacements like some other fixes we have, would they need to be swapped in if using big hud/widescreen resolutions, or make them a mod instead of part of Alpine?

[brave crown]

My judgement on that will depend mostly on what's involved in them. If they're just fixed mesh files and are compatible and fully functional on all resolutions and such probably package them. If they're a fix for widescreen for example but don't work right for 4:3, they should be a mod

Best thing to do is just do them up and then we'll talk about the best distribution method at that point 🙂

[wraith comet]

Roger dodger. Will get on that once I finish my Sven project. Or at least am basically finished.

Redux is insanely useful, might I add. You just spurred me into finally learning Blender properly.

[brave crown]

Awesome!

And yeah im happy with where REDUX is for sure. I plan to use it pretty extensively in the near future too on RF2 ports, now that RF2-style geo and breakable brushes are merged into Alpine for RFL v304

side note - geomod is WAY more accessible for mappers now because of that. Even super complex maps can now utilize geo in limited areas without any real crash/performance concerns, which was why it was shied away from historically

[wraith comet]

The animations being in one glTF would be a time saver, but having them in different ones right now isn't a bad workflow at all. I have had an excellent time with it minus a few problem meshes that I don't fully understand why they're a problem. (Just UVs). The tool works very well and is easy to use, that's the important part.

It might honestly be one of the easiest command line tools I have used.

[brave crown]

for multiple anims, I'll probably just make it accept a text file with anim filenames, one per line

[wraith comet]

Let me ping you in my thread for some more info on how it's factored into my workflow without gunking up here with an unrelated topic.

[wraith comet]

That sounds logical and easy to me.

[gaunt lotus]

uhh hello i am on the board for multiple Big Gunk vendors and we are lobbying for more chaos

[wraith comet]

:>

[boreal ether]

hey while your at it goober, you can fix the bend tool so i bends to a mirror like position that stays on grid.

[wraith comet]

I'm excited to try out the new stuff. RF2 geo-mod will be a huge boon if used right by mappers.

[brave crown]

you mean how if you bend a grid-aligned brush 90 degrees the end of it isn't aligned?

[crude oyster]

Nice!

[gaunt lotus]

best thing is i think u can't even use it wrong, really

[brave crown]

you could set up geoable brushes and then set the hardness to 100

... which still wouldn't work out "badly" I guess, it would just be pointless 😛

[wraith comet]

Right lol. I mean more so taking the time to use it and use it in novel ways.

It's easy to get stuck doing what works because it's what you're used to.

[boreal ether]

yes this

[brave crown]

not making any promises on this yet, but something I'm working on. I want to have a new object type for meshes, so you don't need to use hacky solutions like Switch_Model, and you get a proper reflection in the editor of what it looks like. This will also enable skeletal animations without needing to use entities

[brave crown]

well brush mirroring in-editor is working now

and savage lands looks very strange mirrored lmao

[gaunt lotus]

ESAB

[silk tinsel]

at least it's something. just flip the sign textures and voila.

[brave crown]

and here are the new operations in face and vertex mode too

[silk tinsel]

maybe this was talked already before but im kinda curious, how do you even make such new events and editor scripts then integrate it into the editor itself to make it work?

using some kind of code?

[brave crown]

Yes, Alpine's code is in AlpineEditor.dll, which gets injected into RED.exe through the Alpine launcher

[silk tinsel]

so like you crack that dll open, then put new writting codes?

Ever since Alpine went out, i personally believe it heavily made Dash obsolete.

[brave crown]

the AlpineEditor.dll file is where the code I'm writing exists

[silk tinsel]

Don't tell me you took rafalh's job now. lol

[brave crown]

rafalh works in JVM professionally - I definitely have no interest in that :p

[silk tinsel]

Java virtual machine?

[brave crown]

yes

[silk tinsel]

what does he think of Alpine personally?

[brave crown]

It's really not for me to speculate as to what someone thinks, especially someone that I haven't spoken with many months

[silk tinsel]

Well, it just seemed odd how before Dash was in power, he was always online with us keepin on air with updates. And now since your Alpine went out, he's now out of the loop.

Duke once told me he was never interested in programming longer than he should.

got overburnt with requests

but that's just me.

[brave crown]

i expected object mirroring to be more difficult if I'm honest 🤷 lol

now there's a "Mirror" button in group mode too, which mirrors both brushes and objects

[crude oyster]

He made it pretty obvious he did not like AF and was pretty hurt it made DF obsolete, before he decided to just give up and leave FF altogether. #alpinefaction-support message Which is very unfortunate since RF probably would have died without him and DF. But it is pretty awesome to have new features added almost daily now instead of every 1 or 2 years. I guess all progress has a price.

[wraith comet]

Actual ninth circle of hell. Will never envy a JVM enterprise dev.

Gotta respect the commitment.

[wraith comet]

Wow. That saves a lot of time. Good thing you're coming out with bangers right when I'm interested in mapping.

[brave crown]

mesh objects are coming along

[brave crown]

texture overrides for skinning

[wraith comet]

Me on my way to make a ridable Capek

[desert crown]

As Orion, right?

[brave crown]

mesh objects now have 3 different ways to play anims on skeletal meshes

[wraith comet]

So, you could use this to basically make fake entities, right?

[brave crown]

sure thats one use case yeah

[wraith comet]

I can see a lot of cool use cases for that.

[gaunt lotus]

lol

i can think of a lot of annoying use cases...

map full of ghost/fake players that waste your time

[wraith comet]

Oh, sure. But being able to fake entities opens some interesting doors. Like simulating massive battles in maps without relying on AI. Or having fake characters like how G-Man in HL is technically an object in HL1.

[brave crown]

all good points lol

it also means being able to use skeletal meshes with scripted animations in MP

[desert crown]

would make RF Revised look better

[gaunt lotus]

yea

[desert crown]

Can fake a battle without miners immediately dying

[gaunt lotus]

RFGN 200 museum can have an animated gigantic elite guard

[brave crown]

and placing static meshes without needing hacks like swapping meshes on clutter objects

[wraith comet]

You could basically have a small amount of AI actually fighting where the player is, and in the background, have the rest of them be objects that are playing on a script. Which would be much more efficient and give you more control over the presentation. I agree.

[desert crown]

right but you saw it with volition

keeping a miner alive for 5+s is an impossible challenge

atleast now, you can do stuff

[wraith comet]

Well also, most of their deaths were either scripted, or they gave that miner like 1 health. So we could even make the real AI miners a bit less squishy if we wanted to. I did some tests and they can hold their own well enough.

There is only two problems with having AI fight each other alongside the player.

One is that the AI doesn't quite fight each other completely efficiently. They have no way to really gauge their distance from each other or aim, unlike the player where they are aware of your crosshair, so there's been situations where two guys will be nearly kissing trying to shoot each other and their shots miss since they are clipping.

[desert crown]

no that is true

its why volition did a bunch of quirky things to make them do things

like the cup beside the elevator in maintenance 😛

[wraith comet]

Two is that all AI will inherently become hostile towards the player in any situation if you so much as even give them minor scratch damage, and will then want that player dead until they die themselves.

And it doesn't matter their friendliness setting.

[desert crown]

its not just the player you know

They will hostile anything that grazes them

something i do in the speedrun often is shoot the merc in riverbed that goes to throw a grenade

if i clip him in a cool manner he turns around and grenades himself

if i dont usually he just grenades the ground infront of him or w/e

BUT

he spooks the other merc

merc will shoot him first

[wraith comet]

That's pretty fun lol. I do enjoy AI infighting at times.

The main issue with having allies though is that you really don't want them to turn on the player unless it's obvious the player is trying to kill them, and it wasn't just an accident.

Kind of like how Barney in Half-Life will only turn hostile towards you if you repeatedly damage him.

[desert crown]

right

you could go the extreme route

build the map in blender

animate the characters doing thing as a whole scene

put it back in RED

everything happens planned

but thats alot of effort

[wraith comet]

You can do that, or you can use scripts in RED with fake entities. Like, really, there's a lot of ways to approach it that could open up doors.

[desert crown]

well

the doors are opened

now with VFX

we basically have everything once again

we're back in control

[wraith comet]

Exactly. And since we have REDUX now, you can build fake areas in RED, get them into Blender, make them meshes, then put them into your level in the background, and now you have areas for these fights to occur in that aren't brushes. So it'll be even more optimized.

We now can do basically anything we want.

[desert crown]

its an exact conversation i had with Vel today 🙂

[wraith comet]

Not to mention, the ability to mix RF1 and RF2 style geo-mod is crazy.

[desert crown]

true

[gaunt lotus]

i almost got .bsp importing functional but it's kinda shitty still

something to revisit down the line

[wraith comet]

Ooo, that's neat.

[brave crown]

what you've got already is pretty impressive :p

but yeah it needs some work

[desert crown]

He almost got claude to fully give him an RFL that works

[brave crown]

well - claude one shotted a straight geometry conversion, but a straight geometry conversion isn't really usable from bsp->csg

you need to parse and convert it

[desert crown]

he did

he..

it did

[wraith comet]

Would parsing .map files also be on the table, and any easier to do since they haven't been compiled?

[desert crown]

Actually

@brave crown you think you could try clauding SPAD CAMP ?

[gaunt lotus]

probably, but since those are so few and far between in comparison i didnt try

[brave crown]

?

[desert crown]

the map

the MP map

the one you havn't done yet

😛

[brave crown]

oh from XIII?

[desert crown]

yeah

[brave crown]

that's from Unreal lol, it's already csg

converting the geometry would probably be dead simple. The static meshes are the trouble there

UE2/2.5 (which XIII used) relies heavily on static meshes

Actually you know 🤔

[desert crown]

😏

atta boi

[brave crown]

@gaunt lotus if you feel like experimenting, converting a ut2 to rfg would probably be workable. At least geometry

I say that because Unreal 2/2.5 uses CSG for geometry + static meshes and the static meshes would all be converted as solid brushes

so you could just 1:1 convert the CSG primitives (solid or air - unreal calls them addition or subtraction) and then convert the static meshes to solid brushes lol

[gaunt lotus]

what about ut2k4?

[brave crown]

ut2k4 uses .ut2 map files

[desert crown]

sod 2k4

[gaunt lotus]

okay

[desert crown]

i want spad camp

😠

😛

[brave crown]

you'd need to give it the static mesh packfiles too though

those are uhh

.usx

[brave crown]

XIII I'm sure didn't change the map format much if at all - UT2k3/2k4 would be the big value in a converter, adapting it to other UE games after (up to UE 4 anyway) would be straightforward... probably

[desert crown]

Listen i was excited a year ago when you told me u wanted to 😭

[brave crown]

just realized we're in alpine lol #1376912225578647592 is the better place for this

[wraith comet]

Since you mentioned this, I have to ask you a slightly unrelated question. I have this Python script I'm trying to get working, but it needs bpy for blender 2.8 and it has been a nightmare. I keep getting build wheel errors for the bpy version I need. The toolkit however also has a script that converts the maps to Unreal. Would it be more practical for me to just go from Unreal -> modern Blender instead of trying to get the Blender import script to work?

I'm trying to convert the maps from Rainbow Six 98' to meshes and get them into Blender so they can be ported properly to R6 Rogue Spear.

Apparently the Unreal importer script is more complete too and also does the lighting.

You have more Unreal Engine experience than me (I have none) so I was curious.

[desert crown]

why blender 2.8

because of the sven stuff?

oh i read to fast again

ignore me

[wraith comet]

Nah you're good lol. When the author was making the scripts, I think 2.8 was still in common use.

[desert crown]

ah

[wraith comet]

It was made for a project to port Rainbow to Unreal Engine.

I'm trying to help port the maps to the Rogue Spear engine for R6 Black Ops, which is a standalone mod that collects all of the classic content in one place on the latest Rogue Spear Black Thorn engine.

[desert crown]

Just timing i guess cuz of the sven co-op parts XD

[wraith comet]

The versions of the first game's maps they have right now are inaccurate and kinda buggy fanmades, so I want to help port the real ones.

[desert crown]

good for you though

[visual ether]

Source code for a kill streak announcement added to kill.cpp. 2.wav through 10.wav would be added to client_mods/killstreak_sounds/

Just wanted to throw this in here in case anyone wants to pick up the scraps and make it an added feature.

[desert crown]

Also, welcome to the server! 😄

[brave crown]

@visual ether awesome! You should PR your changes over on GitHub though so they can be reviewed and everything 🙂

[brave crown]

animating meshes in MP has far more applications than two guards laughing at Orion dying over and over

[wraith comet]

Is it possible to also set the material for when you shoot it?

[brave crown]

that could be done with an event, though it would be a bit wonky with replication in MP. Having it apply locally would be relatively straight forward

[brave crown]

alright I think the config for this is working the way I want it to now

[desert crown]

so now aslong as we have the mesh in the "meshes" folder we can load them in natively now ?

and visualise it

[brave crown]

I haven't specifically tested custom meshes yet, but yeah they should work as long as they're in that folder and packed in the vpp with a map

the thing big that Mesh objects do is allow mappers to use meshes (static, skeletal, or animated) without the baggage of a clutter object or an entity, and without having to retrofit something else to work in a way it was never intended to (like using Switch_Model)

mesh objects will not (and were never intended to) replace clutter, entities, or items - but in instances where you don't need a clutter, entity, or item, but were using it because it was the only way to do what you wanted to do, there will now be a better, more purpose-built way to do so

plus... animated meshes in multiplayer. That's a big thing that is inaccessible right now (outside of TCs) and this will enable

[boreal ether]

What da fhuk is that thing at the end of the video

[brave crown]

that is a tankbot trying to play an animation for miner1 lol

i showed it as a demonstration that you can play arbitrary animations on whatever mesh you want lol

(the use case for that would be custom animations)

which... from the POV of the tankbot mesh, the miner1 animations are arbitrary 😛

[brave crown]

@boreal ether is this what you had in mind

[wraith comet]

Good stuff, man! I can see that being super useful.

Honestly... what do we even have left that we've always wanted to be able to do?

It seems like you've pretty much covered everything lmao.

I can say that I'm at least extremely satisfied with this.

[brave crown]

there are some things, but a lot of it is in progress :p

[desert crown]

I want a real modern game torch and i'd love eye-trace scripting

[brave crown]

I do still intend to do the radio tag-ish things in SP for revised, but that also requires my new savegame format to be finished first too (it's close)

[brave crown]

eye-trace scripting?

[desert crown]

like where something reacts based on where you are looking

[wraith comet]

Neato. I think what I like best about how you work is that you don't make people feel stupid for asking questions or giving suggestions.

So it makes people actually want to engage with you.

[brave crown]

oh gotcha

[desert crown]

its better for horror stuff

but like

[brave crown]

right

[desert crown]

its just another thing that someone would take advantage of

[brave crown]

well the game already has that sort of thing (crosshair pushing), so it'd just be a matter of coming up with a good way to interface with it

[desert crown]

you can't crosshair push a statue 😝

[brave crown]

perhaps a trigger option - "Player is looking at"

or even a new trigger type - Trigger Target

idk

[wraith comet]

Yeah, something like that. Maybe even allow a tri- yeah lol.

[desert crown]

the idea of - if player looks away "action happens"

or if a player looks at something "action happens"

[wraith comet]

I was going to say maybe have a trigger type that triggers when the crosshair is looking at it.

[brave crown]

yeah i can see the use case

would almost certainly be more useful in SP, horror mods as you mentioned

[wraith comet]

Not even just that. I could see it being useful for scripted events in general that you want the player to not miss.

And since the game already has crosshair pushing, well, why not.

[brave crown]

yeah

[desert crown]

dumb mechanic on its own 😠

[brave crown]

Not a right now thing, but I don't see it being a huge lift technically when the time comes. The bigger task is figuring out the most useful and intuitive way to implement it

[desert crown]

(i say after dealing with it playing on impossible)

[brave crown]

also now that fully new object types are viable, there's a lot that can be done with that

[wraith comet]

There is something I've been wondering about. I remembered it the other day. Do you remember that one time a few years back you and Rafalh had a debug command in Dash to change the player entity? Do you think that would be viable as an event you can use, similar to undercover?

[brave crown]

there's a disabled built-in console command in the game - body which sets the player's entity type, I believe that's what you're referring to

[wraith comet]

Oh, that was disabled? Huh.

[brave crown]

in theory yes it could be tied to an event. The problem is that it gets reset when you load a savegame file, etc. so there's a few places it would need to be handled

not an issue for a debug command obviously but ya

[wraith comet]

So, how does that command fully work then? Does it retain the player's inventory when switching to and back?

[brave crown]

if my memory is right the inventory is separate to the entity type

[wraith comet]

Wow, Volition actually decoupled something?

[brave crown]

[wraith comet]

Neat. I was just wanting to bring that back up since I could see it having some neat use cases.

It'd be a good way to be able to change the player's properties on the spot non-destructively if needed.

[desert crown]

im so down to play the whole game in 3rd person now so ty for that

[wraith comet]

Did he fix third person being dogshit?

[desert crown]

ehhh

its still weird

xhair is on your head

but it persists through loads

[brave crown]

i fixed TP resetting to FP when you go through a level load

thats it

[wraith comet]

Well that's still an improvement lol.

[desert crown]

AHAHAHA

u do get weird results but its fine

[brave crown]

how is that weird O.o

[desert crown]

i mean cuz like

ideally your camera never clips the world boundary 😛

[wraith comet]

Honestly I do think the camera clipping out a bit is better than it bumping against those tight spaces repeatedly. I could see that getting annoying.

[brave crown]

oh lol

yeah, most TP games use a spring arm of some kind for the camera

rather than just shoving the camera back by an offset

[desert crown]

i do wish i could control its position

[brave crown]

and a collision trace

[desert crown]

trying to shoot with my head in the way is shite XD

[wraith comet]

It might not work well for RF to do that though, because it was designed for first person. Some of those spaces would be a tight squeeze.

Best you could do IMO is stop the HoM effect.

[desert crown]

hahahahahaha

[gaunt lotus]

doing proper TP mode is actually a lot of work

right now you could probably easily change the camera offset, but if you fire from the camera position it would be broken and u could shoot around corners etc

so it has to be done alongside making the guns fire from the weapon origin

[desert crown]

yes, the way the scene was meant to be watched

[gaunt lotus]

but then you could aim at things around walls subtley and not realize that you're blocked from hitting, so you'd need to trace that and give feedback on the xhair etc

one little thing turns into 12 projects

[desert crown]

interesting

TP stops screenshake 😄

as god intended

[brave crown]

god's a huge fan of looking at the ass end of the submarine, apparently

[desert crown]

😂

made it tho

true scoped gameplay

[wraith comet]

I remember this one time I used camera2 to position the camera over the shoulder, then switched to camera3, and recorded a video.

camera3 will save the position you set in camera2, mostly.

(It does snap though.)

[desert crown]

ahaaaa

doesn't persisis through cutsceneessssss

[wraith comet]

Goober you're falling off.

[brave crown]

I recall making a video like this ~15 years ago and then IGN featured it in some random article lol

got like a billion views

[wraith comet]

lol that is amazing.

[brave crown]

https://youtu.be/MAeU7nPtWFA
On my super old youtube channel that I don't use anymore lol

[split sleet]

i still hope for '2d' rf platformer mod / map

ive did mockup few years ago

'concept' lol

[desert crown]

3rd person oob

[split sleet]

but my RED and rf-tech knowledge is ...

well

VERY limitied

[desert crown]

ok the aesir might be a problem 😂

ill customise this one

[split sleet]

would it be possible to lock camera2 angle using some command ?
going about doing proper platform shouldnt be problematic for someone RED-trained

geoing obstacles could be problematic due to rng nature right ?

https://youtu.be/izDgm0WSkdw?list=PLLd48dMP08-e8PpDZWWjvheb1p9Q73kR-

@brave crown

[desert crown]

later nerd

[gaunt lotus]

lmfao li

q

[brave crown]

hahahahahahahahahaha

yes this is actually totally doable

and probably would be really fun lol

marswars had a mode similar to that

[desert crown]

Pacman

[brave crown]

lmao im not against a 2.5d mode like that

wouldnt even be that hard

[desert crown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKUVxNAuSGg

[brave crown]

lock camera, remap movement keys, set entities to not collide with players

done

oh and stop entities from sidestepping

basically delete the Z axis

[desert crown]

retarget xhair

[split sleet]

ohh i would love to play smth like that

[brave crown]

lol

[desert crown]

i would unironically make RF in 2d

[split sleet]

would be quite an interesting thing

[wraith comet]

Red Faction: Flash Edition

[split sleet]

BEFORE RED FACTION RTS mod/map

[brave crown]

honestly I'm sure people could come up with some really cool maps for it

[split sleet]

DO U GUYS NEED CONCEPT VIDEO?

IM VERY GOOD AT THIS

https://tenor.com/view/table-mess-lmao-laugh-gif-5126644939264248578

[split sleet]

n-gage flashbacks

https://tenor.com/view/stewie-rocking-shocked-trauma-family-guy-gif-3629549

[desert crown]

did i do it

yes i fucking did

[brave crown]

ive got way too many alpine features going on now so im gonna hold off a little bit but yes I am 100% down to make a 2d mode like that relatively soon

i know how to do it all already too, I think

[split sleet]

😮

WOOOAH

RFU incentive for 'diff genre map/mode' for rf ?

https://tenor.com/view/alan-rickman-snape-shrug-no-idea-i-dont-know-gif-15073461

[wraith comet]

I want to savor the first time a new player asks what Alpine adds and we say a 2D mode without elaborating.

[desert crown]

😂

[split sleet]

imagine RF worms

turn based

xddddd

doing geos

crawling inside tunnels

'i gotta swap to elite guard now, he has dynamite and rope '

[desert crown]

We just need to make RED the next Fortnite Engien

come on Goober

lets beat Roblox

[split sleet]

lool

[desert crown]

GTA time baby

[split sleet]

rf lobbies

hmm that would make for an interesting game

RF in TPP ?

hmm

maybe they should do it for sequel

[split sleet]

im just happy that Goober is considering 2D RF

continue ,

ure doing good

how hard is doing oobs ?

[desert crown]

very

[split sleet]

thats big spare tire

[desert crown]

i only did one

[split sleet]

never thought about it

is it same size as those on vehicle itself ?

or is it just a matter of perspective

[desert crown]

its correct

yah

HAHAHAHA SURVIVED !

[split sleet]

does this crosshair works well ?

[desert crown]

NOW WE'RE GAMING

[split sleet]

i mean , are the bullets going where u aim

[desert crown]

and no the xhair is bad cuz its on my head i can't see

[split sleet]

r nah

[desert crown]

oh they are

just hard to see

[split sleet]

reticle_scale 2

or in af

ui_reticlescale

r smth like that

[desert crown]

i can't believe they animated him sitting there 😂

[split sleet]

u can also use flashlight

for secondary 'pointer' device

xddd

[desert crown]

ahahahaha

[wraith comet]

I think what's funnier is that this animation could be reused with minor tweaks for TC mods to make characters sit in chairs.

[desert crown]

😛

[wraith comet]

Well, back to the GoldSrc mines for me.

I had two days off.

[desert crown]

ahahahah

clip gaming

[wraith comet]

Hey, that's what Parker does in GoldSrc when crouching.

(I need to fix that.)

[desert crown]

😂

what a journey this has been

or angle 2

uhhh

idk what i broke but my guns stopped working on space station 😂

to much fun with third person 🙁

restarting game helped but bleh

[wraith comet]

Strange.

[desert crown]

is what it is

[wraith comet]

Gogurt we found a bug

[desert crown]

finally i get to see what they are doing

a final angle for our collected journey here today

😎

all in all third person has bugs

clipping geometry, whatever happened in space station, i think it would be nice if we could have better vehicle third persons but yeah

its servicable 🙂

[boreal ether]

Yes sir !

[brave crown]

Awesome 🥳

Do you (or anyone else) want to give meshes and notes a test? Make sure they're working properly and don't have any issues (especially crashes)

I believe I've covered my bases, but always good to get a sanity check 😛

[boreal ether]

yeh thats a good idea send it over

[brave crown]

will do, 1s

[brave crown]

that's a man with a plan right there

[desert crown]

he's already got the dr

it could be any one of us next!

[brave crown]

Sent it over, let me know if you find any oddities 🙂

@dire geode for your reference, this is the dev thread for Alpine Faction, if you wanted to talk about such topics 🙂

[dire geode]

so...i've been doing some experiments lately.

[brave crown]

@crude oyster I can send you the build with notes and mesh objects if you wanted to check it out too

[crude oyster]

Wait, you can't set material type for the mesh with this new event? I think that's pretty important. Looks dumb when you shoot something that is supposed to be fleshy and it sparks or does nothing instead of the blood spurt and bullet hitting flesh sound. Other handy options to have would be if they are to be invulnerable or not, ability to set life value if not invulnerable, and ability to set the debris fx and corpse if they are not invulnerable. Rather then needing a smorgasbord of events to set up all these additional properties.

[desert crown]

🤨

[brave crown]

material type is a good one that I forgot - good call on that

Meshes can't be invulnerable or vulnerable - they have no life value 😛 Clutter should still be used for those sorts of things. Mesh objects are just meshes. No life, no killing them, no debris

they are for when you need a mesh and only a mesh. Clutter is for when you need something destructible or such

If there are useful options for clutter that there aren't already ways to change though I'm definitely happy to make those methods exist - can you set the material of clutter already in a map? If not, that can certainly be added

[crude oyster]

I see.. but what if I want custom animated clutter that can be destroyed? 😛

[brave crown]

Actually 🤔 just thinking about it, Mesh objects are essentially just clutter once they're in the map (they're different in the editor). It would probably be extremely simple to just put a checkbox on the mesh object to turn it into clutter - specify a life, debris, explosion vclip, material, etc.

[dire geode]

proof of concept stuffs, primarily preps for Gamepad support.

i (sorta) got SDL3 library working, but again, that's a proof of concept thing. https://github.com/AL2009man/alpinefaction/tree/SDL3

[crude oyster]

The only way to set the material type of a clutter is to use a clutter that already has the material you want with switch model. 😛 Being able to change that and other properties would be nice with switch model. But if this new event could be a all in 1 replacement for switch model, then wouldn't really need any other events to change clutter properties.

[brave crown]

Interesting - the idea of adding proper gamepad support to alpine is something I'm definitely not opposed to, but it's also something I know very little about

[brave crown]

Well, meshes could in theory, in addition to the use cases I had in mind, basically be a DIY clutter maker lol

Let me cook something, hang on

(for reference, Switch_Model still works on mesh objects if you need to swap the mesh though)

[desert crown]

well good luck with that! nice to see more people contribute 😄

[dire geode]

i am far more "familiar" (read: claude and gyrowiki) with gyro controls (i have added it on a separate sourceport, still pending pr) than gamepad stuffs, my hope is to gauge interest and see if someone's willing to do the heavy-lifting.

but if you wanna learn more: I would suggest doing research, and maybe reference other sourceports.

buuuut SDL is capable of keyboard & mouse inputs, too. (in case you wanna replace directinput with it instead)

[gaunt lotus]

I am interested and have learned gyro for a bit, but i'm curious what the benefit matrix is for including the gigantic SDL library over expanding the game's native dinput support (or potentially setting up xinput and rawinput)

[dire geode]

future-proofing if we're talking gamepads, and the only logical way of doing gyro over there.

dinput nor xinput doesn't do gyro, MS GameInput does but last i check: it ain't open source friendly

[gaunt lotus]

that makes sense, gyro support should become more prolific

i found steam input to be pretty sufficient for RF, but i am approximately 1/15th my skill level on gyro compared to mouse lol

[dire geode]

should also allow us to do more advanced feature down in the line. think rumble/haptics (not to be confused with dualsense haptic feedback), rgb, touchpad, etc.

but yes, i am worry about sdl library beinig gigantic. best I did is follow how Wemino (of EchoPatch for FEAR) did it and minimize it the giantness.

[brave crown]

@crude oyster this needs to be improved but ya

[crude oyster]

Awesome! Can the animation be triggered somehow and have the mesh in a static pose until that happens or does it always have to loop?

[brave crown]

Well, animated meshes need a state anim (like the idle anim) which loops

but the Mesh_Animate event can be used to play one-time action anims (or replace the looping state anim)

but for a custom mesh, the idle state anim could be a static pose for sure

[crude oyster]

Ah kk, that works!

Can the idle animation default to just the static mesh like if it was a switch_model, if no animation file is entered? or is every mesh going to need to have a rfa created to go with it, even if we dont need animation and just want to take advantage of all the custom properties that switch_model doesnt give us?

[brave crown]

Well, the v3c has a base pose (every one does), if you dont specify a state anim it just uses the base pose. For the stock skeletal anims all the base anims are unusable, but in theory a custom skeletal mesh could have a base pose that was usable on its own

but also static meshes (v3m) don't need (and cna't use) rfas

only skeletal meshes use rfas

[crude oyster]

So this can be used to select a v3m and in that case wouldn't need to worry about any rfa file?

[brave crown]

yes, it can use v3m, v3c, or vfx

(vfx has no collision support though, so no bullet impacts/damage)

[crude oyster]

Awesome! 🥳

[boreal ether]

where is the download ?

[brave crown]

I DMed you it

[boreal ether]

ah

[wraith comet]

The visual of Orion just fucking exploding like in a Spongebob episode is so funny.

[boreal ether]

for the note object, if you removed a text by accidently then the logical thing to do would be the press cancel and reopen it so the text you removed comes back. that is not the case, it permanent as soon as you click remove. not a critical thing but accident will happen. just gotta be careful

[brave crown]

Hm, I might just remove the cancel button on the note properties. It saves automatically so just a "Close" button probably would be better

[dire geode]

another proof of concept test, this time: features Controller Support...which is partially working but left stick movement does not work.

https://github.com/AL2009man/alpinefaction/tree/POC-Gamepad

[brave crown]

ok i think this is good

[brave crown]

Interesting! I'm going to bed in a sec but I'll take a deeper look at this tomorrow

have you tested it?

[dire geode]

already done initial testings, had to do that before I release the link.

it's a proof of concept, of course. I didn't fully tested everything else...but I'll list two things that won't work:

• Menus can't be navigated with gamepad
• Left stick movement do not work

I don't plan to do it myself, but it should give you an idea.

I would suggest doing some research or reference other Sourceport that uses SDL3's gamepad code as a basis before doing anything funky.

[brave crown]

Ah ok. Yeah those 2 issues would definitely need to be handled before a merge

@boreal ether

I'm about to go to bed but I'll send you a new test build that has this and the destructible flag for mesh objects if you wanted to test it out

[crude oyster]

I played around with the mesh object. Tis neat! I'll definitely be getting a lot of use out of this. Some notes:

• I don't think material type is working. I set it to flesh but bullets are still making sparks instead of blood and sounding like hitting solid instead of flesh.
• I think it needs 1 more property and that is an option for corpse mesh, like a lot of clutter consoles and stuff have, when they die they don't just disappear they leave behind a broken version of the model.
• It would also be handy if it could accept the extensions listed in the table files, so we could just copy and paste from tables instead of having to know and manually change .V3D to .V3M, .VCM to .V3C, and .MFV to .RFA.
• The full collision acts kinda weird, where you just get like stuck in the mesh if you run into it and can climb up it. 😛
• Would it be possible to also add the new mesh object to the drop down in clutter properties, that lets you change the clutter to a different clutter? (Or another quick way to select a bunch of clutter at once and change them into mesh objects instead) That way if you're over the hitbox limit for clutter/triggers in a map, you could just quickly select all of a clutter that doesn't need player collision, like "soda can" and stuff, change it to mesh, and set all the properties it should have but with only weapon collision/no collision instead. 🤔

I guess with mesh_animate, if an animation is listed as a "state" in the table file, we can only use it as a looping state animation and can't just use 1 play of it as an action? If I try that it seems only the legs animate while the top half doesn't do anything. 😛

[brave crown]

Well, it plays whatever's in the anim file, so I guess those anims are meant to be blender with other ones 😛

[brave crown]

1. I may have broken this, will investigate
2. This is more complicated than it seems - real clutter spawns a second clutter class when this happens. I could have it do that, but then you wouldn't be able to customize the properties of the corpse class. I can see about just changing the mesh on death (and you could use events to change its properties if you wanted to)
3. Can do these as aliases, good call.
4. Does this happen for static meshes too? I noticed it for skeletal meshes playing anims, but it makes sense there (those aren't intended to have static mesh collision, really 😛 )
5. Adding to the clutter dropdown is a hard no - not possible. Mesh objects are not clutter objects (though they do effectively render as them in-game), they're entirely different things. Bulk converting clutter to mesh could be done through some other method though, I'd need to think on it - probably would just shove it into REDUX honestly lol, would be the easiest way

[brave crown]

alright, I think this is good

and yes material was broken, fixed now

[desert crown]

@brave crown is there anyway to move or disable a climb region

thats something that i would deem missing if not

I tried disabling it with a trigger, nothing

[brave crown]

there is not, no

[desert crown]

tried keyframing the region itself and nothing

can you do something for that?

[brave crown]

the reason is that a climb region in game is created at level load and from then on completely decoupled from what it was in the editor. Climb regions in-game don't even have UIDs

[desert crown]

oh..

[brave crown]

it could be handled the same way I handle MP spawns in Alpine, theoretically

(that is - rewrite the level load function for the climbing regions chunk and come up with a brand new way to handle them)

it's a bit of work but it is doable

[desert crown]

its probably for a single use case so

if its alot of effort

its ok

[brave crown]

Well, I could see value in toggling climb regions and/or putting them on movers

I am not totally sure what would happen with the physics engine though if you stayed still in a climb region and the climb region moved away from you lol

the game definitely never expected that to be possible

[desert crown]

The idea (or use case) in my thought process is, say you pick up a "ladder" in a different area, that enables a climb region in a different area where you "place" the ladder

[brave crown]

right ya

[desert crown]

or when you place it it toggles it on

probably better user-end than keyframes

[brave crown]

the best way to do that with current tools would be to put the player in a different room after the pick up that looks identical apart from having a climb region lol

but that's certainly not ideal

[desert crown]

yeah

I mean theres good reasons to do that anyway

if you have multiple things you want to do on the reload

but yeah

for the single use of the swap not ideal

[brave crown]

put toggling/moving climbing regions in the alpine issues as a feature req

its something im totally down for doing at some point

[gaunt lotus]

mofo be trying to pull the ladder up on people

liq wont stand for this

what happens if you are ladder glitching and someone turns off the ladder

[desert crown]

hahahahahah

id pay to see liq just fall out the sky

i gotta be real

😂

[desert crown]

do it in a bit

@brave crown i assume push regions are the same?

i know they can be toggled

but can they be moved?

[brave crown]

they are not the same

and yes they can

[desert crown]

ah ok

[brave crown]

with Anchor_Marker or Anchor_Marker_Orient

[desert crown]

just the way the debug command works thats all

[brave crown]

(alpine specific functionality, they never could before)

[desert crown]

debug push_climb_reg

thought they were on the same wave

[brave crown]

ah nope

look at DM-RFU8-ETD.rfl if you want to see an example of a push region moving with an anchor market

[desert crown]

Could we do it before

I disabled it in SPCTF

with dash faction

could we move it?

[brave crown]

#1376930844597551146 message :p

[desert crown]

oh

i read to fast again

😄

[brave crown]

push regions could be toggled in the stock game

they could not be moved

[desert crown]

that'd be good enough tbf

[brave crown]

same with particle emitters

[desert crown]

if they act like push regions but need the AF functionality

that way they can be toggled

[brave crown]

?

[desert crown]

sorry im not clear

[brave crown]

are you talking about climb regions now?

[desert crown]

Climb Region should act like Push Region in the sense of being able to toggle

[brave crown]

climb regions are not like push regions, no

[desert crown]

its a region yaknow

[brave crown]

climb regions cannot be toggled or moved, stock game or alpine

push regions can be toggled in stock game, toggled or moved in alpine

[desert crown]

thats all i meant

im maybe overthinking it

[brave crown]

region != region :p

[desert crown]

Effectively thats what I meant

if a climb region could be toggled - then the same code that allows for the push region to be attached to the AF move stuff

that way it would work

Ill just stick to requesting

😄

[brave crown]

well not technically but yeah I'd make it appear this way when mapping :p

[desert crown]

😛

[brave crown]

1. fixed
2. done
3. done
4. I think this is just a side effect of colliding with a skeletal mesh while it animates
5. out of scope for this, really. But coming up with some bulk conversion method for existing maps is pretty straightforward, can be figured out after the fact (this is probably 20 minutes worth of work in redux)

[split sleet]

DONT DO IT

BLASPHEMY

@brave crown please ...just fuel that creative spark into RF 2D instead !

leave ladders alone

[brave crown]

[desert crown]

Sorry bud

i got a place a ladder

and then unplace it

respectively

when you are on it ideally

[split sleet]

you are messing with the laws of rf physics u dont understand

DONT PLAY GOD HERE

[desert crown]

https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/issues/291

[split sleet]

how do i thumbs down or report on github

wat in da

https://tenor.com/view/two-thumbs-down-the-office-gif-23328001

[desert crown]

you'll live

I mean theres no fall damage in MP

so you'l survive the fall

[split sleet]

@green cobalt THEY ARE DEFORESTING THE LADDER FOREST

BARBARIANS !

[desert crown]

oh relax

[split sleet]

im calling unesco or smth

[desert crown]

I mean relax your legs when you fall from the height

relax body

etc

[split sleet]

ladders are protected

laws are in play

[gaunt lotus]

we should enable fall damage

and team damage

would be really funny

rail team damage should redircet to the shooter, though

[desert crown]

true

take that sid

[gaunt lotus]

team damage is actually funny in that way cus u can grief ur team with fusion, too

[desert crown]

omg

i just got a mental stim of a fusion on checkmate

im so glad there isn't one

but omg imagine

THE GIBS MASON

[gaunt lotus]

and if you are fighting in tight hallways you can't just spam down a guy 2v1 bc youll prolly shoot ur team in the back

it has many upsides tactically lol

downside is that you have to think about what youre doing

[brave crown]

i really wish fall and team damage had defaulted to on in rf

because they probably would have become the standard

it's too late to adjust now

[desert crown]

i gotta be real i don't think I'd enjoy it

😛

[brave crown]

too many maps just wouldn't work with fall damage

[gaunt lotus]

ET fully redpilled me on team damage

[brave crown]

doesn't help that RF's fall damage settings are really dumb either

you take damage falling out of the flag level in wl

yeah i mean makes sense realistically. But Martian Gravity(tm)

[gaunt lotus]

it should cap like quake

at 10dmg or something

[desert crown]

eh you still take fall damage in space station

gravity shmavity

[gaunt lotus]

then it makes sense

[brave crown]

yeah that would probably work

[desert crown]

That would make climb regions very important

i sense trolling

moving a climb region on a micro map

fall fucker

😄

[brave crown]

micromaps would be much more exciting if every time you saw some fucker flying across the map on a jump pad, you knew they were about to splat against something

even better if they gib

[desert crown]

omg the bugs life map

😭

do the falling whistle noise

then wilheilm scream

https://tenor.com/view/me-atrapaste-es-cine-its-cinema-cinema-esto-es-cine-gif-12869046600151364058

[brave crown]

GlaDOS Wheeeeeeeeeee

<splat>

[desert crown]

😂

its bad that i said the glados sound out loud right now

[brave crown]

I'd be curious how many people reading this thread didn't

because I certainly did

[desert crown]

[gaunt lotus]

i remember thinking that if you are exceeding like 15m/s or whatever the client and 3p should play some kind of swooshing/wind sound

lol

actually no, that wasn't rf, it was for smash mod

[desert crown]

10/10 purple sphere

[brave crown]

🟩 🩵 🟣

quality

[dire geode]

also been doing yet another proof of concept. this time: you tilt with the controller.

https://github.com/AL2009man/alpinefaction/tree/POC-GyroGamepad

took me a while to deal with the camera system first (now joystick camera it's own sens, instead of tying it to Mouse), but was needed to obtain proper camera angles (despite issues with it's behavior).

but super easy to do basic and raw gyro aim afterwards.

[wraith comet]

This is awesome work, my friend. I have wanted to have some form of proper gamepad support for awhile.

[dire geode]

but i'll stress this: everything i've doing is a proof of concept thing, i don't actually intend to work on adding Controller support beyond the Gyro Camera (the one I actually wanna do)

[brave crown]

Nice work! I'm certainly willing to review a PR if you get one together to submit 🙂

[wraith comet]

Still awesome work. The rest will come rather naturally as long as SDL isn't too much of a pain.

(Which, SDL might not be a bad idea anyway.)

[dire geode]

personally, i think the biggest pain point with adding Controller Support is adding the Gamepad Input layer onto the Game Action and Gamepad-centric settings ui.

but if it's anything like keyboard input layer over to game action, it should be a good basis to begin with.

personally, i think the entire camera input needs a overhaul first just to ease the pain

[gaunt lotus]

the main pain point for this, yes, is the UI/UX work

[dire geode]

...and i also wanna give it the Quake sensitivity treatment

[gaunt lotus]

because the controls menu would need to become/show kb/m and gamepad inputs separately

and the entire UI needs to shift button prompts from kb/m to gamepad etc

depending on what's actually in use

[split sleet]

team damage shouldnt be that of an issue in rf

splash dmg weapons arent the meta (explos)

more than that they are quite meh

other than being weary about fusion

not big of a deal

especially with gaussian spred that makes weapons laserbeammss

plus there are bigass indicators where your teammates are

in AF

[wraith comet]

I haven't because I need to play Portal more. I know, it's criminal I haven't.

[crude oyster]

The new stuff works well! Just 1 more thing, if you set a debris mesh and an explosion vclip, it doesn't seem to create the debris anymore. Delete the explosion vclip and just have the debris mesh and debris are back. 🤔

[crude oyster]

What does reload textures do? 🤔 I thought it meant I could drop a new texture in the texture folder, hit reload textures, and now I could use the new texture right away without needing to restart RED, but that doesn't seem to be the case, so not sure what to test with that? 😛

[brave crown]

@crude oyster can you try using one of the vclips the stock clutter with debris use

[brave crown]

That is the case, but I've noticed it doesn't update the texture mode sidebar right away. Texture browser shows them though

[crude oyster]

Also doesn't seem to update on the surfaces its applied to. Still just default texture until I reload RED. 🤔

[brave crown]

Oh if it's a texture that's already referenced you mean?

Yeah that I'm not sure if there is a good way to do unfortunately. It should work well for brand new textures though

[crude oyster]

I opened RED, created a new texture in photoshop, dropped it in my texture folder, hit reload texture, applied it to a surface, still appears as default everywhere its referenced. Even in my texture browser it just shows as default texture. 🤔

[brave crown]

O.o that's surprising, I did that exact sequence and it worked fine 😮

[crude oyster]

my textures folder is 4.35gb with 1204 textures. is there a limit to how many textures it will reload?

[brave crown]

Shouldn't be 😮

Hen I tested it, it was in a subfolder, was yours?

[crude oyster]

mine was just in the main folder

[brave crown]

Hm, interesting. Maybe I can improve that flow a bit

But good to hear that the rest of it works well though 😄 the other stuff is far more useful than reload textures anyway haha

[crude oyster]

Just tried with an empty texture folder and 2 new textures added. Only 1 of the 2 showed up after reload textures. 🤔

Tried with a subdirectory and again they both just say as default texture. 🤷‍♂️

[crude oyster]

Seems like its a RF bug that it can't make debris and play a vclip at the same time. If you look at chinese_lamp in clutter table

$V3D Filename: "ChineseLamp01.V3D"
$Debris Filename: "genericlight01_debris.V3D"
$Debris Sound Set: "large debris bounce"
$Material: "glass"
$Life: 80
$Explode Anim: "yellboom"
$Explode Anim Radius: .4
$Flags: ("collide_weapon")
$Debris Velocity: 3

It's supposed to have debris and explode vclip, but in game all you get is the explode vclip when you kill the stock clutter object. Put the same properties into the mesh object and get the same result, only explode, no debris. Remove the explode from the mesh object and now you get the debris.

Also glass material type seem to be making the solid sound with mesh object instead of the glass sound when a bullet hits it.

[dire geode]

did some experiments regarding camera angles.

I got close to succeeding, but got hit by roadblocks in terms of replicating the same quake sens, for now: it'd be shelved.

the good news is that linear pitch patch now works for gamepad camera inputs.

for now: i'm satisifed with what i set out to do, I'm hanging tight and play the waiting game. 🙂

[brave crown]

Are you planning to fix up the outstanding issues and PR it over? 🙂

[dire geode]

i am considering decoupling the linear patch just to make it easier to add gamepad camera down in the road (handled by someone else, of course)

[brave crown]

If it's something you want to take on, certainly feel free. Happy to review any PRs you want to send over 🙂

[dire geode]

gimme a moment, i'll do a PR for the linear patch decouple first. all you need is a minor refactor, it's a super band-aid fix at the moment

done, don't merge it ASAP, best to review and test first.
https://github.com/GooberRF/alpinefaction/pull/292

[brave crown]

Just want to be sure I'm not missing something - is it simply taking the existing code in the linear_pitch_patch and breaking it out into a helper function?

[dire geode]

yep, makes it easier in case the gamepad camera comes first before camera angles

you can tell which one gave me issues. 😛

during my initial testings: i noticed it's very tied to mouse camera, i ain't a biggest fan of this sort of stuffs. it was a pain point back during Perfect Dark sourceport work

[brave crown]

I totally get why this change will be necessary at that point, but honestly this refactor is so minor that I don't really see much purpose until it needs to be called by something else (like a gamepad hook)?

Given how minor this is, I think it should just be part of the larger gamepad support initiative

[dire geode]

perhaps?

i'll put it as a draft pr for now.

[brave crown]

Ok

Again, not that it's not necessary - it totally will be. But I'm not a fan of breaking things out into helper functions unless there is actually value in doing so - like if it needs to be used in more than one place, or if it's clearer to read the code or such. But to break it out of a hook into a helper function right above it in the same file, there's just no value in it currently

[dire geode]

i'll agree. right now, i see it as a band-aid fix to a semi-large issue that'll need to be dealt with during gamepad or camera angle work

[brave crown]

But that's the thing - it's not actually an issue currently 😛 Non-linear pitch is an issue, and that issue is solved - it will just need to be solved again via a helper function once there's another input method supported 🙂 So you can break it out into a helper function at that point

[dire geode]

heh, understood

i'll need to figure out how to get camera angle first, or just make it separate from gamepad camera code.

[grand ocean]

I resently installed a lightwight version of debian linux on my 15 year old laptop.

Red faction installed without issues (all the modern hardware & windows bug effect linux to)

I am wondering if AF will functiom on linux?

[brave crown]

The function at 0x0049DEB3 is what simulates mouselook rotation, if you wanted to look at that in IDA/Ghidra. It sets the values in player->p_data.orient and player->control_data.phb

[dire geode]

right now, I'm leaning towards the latter. the good news is that gamepad camera (both joystick and gyro) now does linear pitch, you can review the current setup right now.

https://github.com/AL2009man/alpinefaction/blob/POC-GyroGamepad/game_patch/input/mouse.cpp

[brave crown]

Yes, Alpine works great on Linux (via wine)

[dire geode]

still happy with the current gyro camera setup. 🙂

[brave crown]

it needs a bit of fixing up around the edges for sur,e but it's good to hear it's coming along 🙂 Once the issues are sorted definitely feel free to PR (or feel free to draft PR now while you're working on it if you like)

It's very difficult to see what actually changed in your code without a diff (which a draft PR would provide), but the only issue I see just glancing down through mouse.cpp is that your gamepad_rotation_injection is at the same address as linear_pitch_patch - two injections at the same location isn't a good idea, they should be merged into the one block. But that's minor and very fixable

[grand ocean]

Thank u.
Its a shame i need to install wine. Thank to steam & proton RF launches & run ok (save for the few bugs)
But beggers cant be choosers. At least my kids can keep playing roblox & minecraft on my main gaming desktop, while i play & mod a game from 25 years ago😅

[brave crown]

Oh, proton should work too

@gaunt lotus has run Alpine on proton I know

[gaunt lotus]

You can either add Alpine as a non-steam game and install it, use luxtorpeda to install it w/ Steam, or maybe protontricks and manually run the installer against the prefix for RF

[grand ocean]

Thank u for the info..

I'm kinda newish to modern linux. Last time i used it steam wasn't compatable (u had to use wine back then) So i'm kinda redescovering how things work.

[gaunt lotus]

ya totally fair

proton is "just" valve's fork of Wine

luxtorpeda has a gui for installing Alpine on top of Steam's RF - it's probably the easiest way to get it set up

https://github.com/luxtorpeda-dev/luxtorpeda

[dire geode]

i'll compensate with this commit for now, this will include the gyros stuffs.

https://github.com/AL2009man/alpinefaction/commit/dafc0db264f674772c850ca9799923c8368b3161

oh and inject path fixed.

once i can get the player movement working proper, i might consider doing it as a draft pr with help wanted tag.

will do it as a separate branch.

[brave crown]

@split sleet

had a few minutes did an experiment lol

[boreal ether]

holy shit! i would love a top down shooter option just like the game shadow grounds

[brave crown]

is this what you tried? it seemed to work fine 😮

[brave crown]

seems like it could use essentially the same logic just with axes flipped lol

well i guess the movement mapping would be a bit different, but pretty close anyway

actually, top-down might be a bit different in that you need to angle it a little bit otherwise it looks weird

so there may be an additional angle to factor into the translation

but either way, probably doable

[boreal ether]

always dreamed of that

[brave crown]

i cant think of a top down game since GTA2 that is actually straight down lol

[boreal ether]

lol

[brave crown]

they're always like 15ish degrees off of vertical

so you can see your character jumping for instance

[boreal ether]

shadowgrounds and alien breed

[crude oyster]

Your video doesn't show textures not appearing then appearing after hitting reload textures lol. 😛 This is what I'm doing and the button just seems to do nothing for me. Guess it's a YMMV button? 🤔

[split sleet]

WOooooooowwww

[split sleet]

and ive put work too and made commemoratory ai slop crap :

with bug in title apparwntly

#RF2D hypeee

[brave crown]

Ahhh ok I see the difference - you switch to the category and generate a preview for the texture before doing Reload Textures, and then the cached copy of that image sticks around. If you do Reload Textures before trying to find it in the category (which caches a version of it that isn't loaded), it seems to work fine

I'll see if there's anything I can do about that still, but it seems to work properly as long as you don't go try to find the texture before hitting the reload button :p

[brave crown]

had a slight issue with aim direction in the previous video (applying tan incorrectly, yay lol) but it's working now

[desert crown]

oh btw

i did a dumb yesterday

idk if its solvable with the new save game format but

i accidentally quick save/loaded when i went through a load

and it corrupted the save entirely

and the previous auto save went back to the last one

[brave crown]

that's interesting - if I had to guess, probably tried to write partial data from memory during the level transition save (which technically uses the same savegame system, just doesn't write it to file)

[desert crown]

i do have the video if necassary

[brave crown]

Not really something I can conclusively diagnose either way, but it would make sense if that had happened

[desert crown]

but yeah

[brave crown]

@crude oyster fixed that issue

the only outstanding "problem" is that the texture preview panel on the left doesn't update to show the newly loaded texture until you switch to another texture and switch back to it. But it updates in the world and still packs to the packfile properly either way, so I don't really mind that very minor cosmetic issue that doesn't impact function

[brave crown]

lol side scoller works nearly perfect in MP and I didnt even need to change anything, that's always nice 😛

probably need to force off the player name display when you stare at another player though for obvious reasons

[desert crown]

Ok i would be super pumped if there was a 2d map at game night 😂

would be horrendous to try and get for Game Night Footage but

would be fun to play

[brave crown]

this is how its configured btw

in retrospect, that should probably be "Perspective" lol

[grand ocean]

As some others mentioned topdown view would be interesting

[desert crown]

Eh idk

never was a fan of top down or twin stick 😛

but if this works id personally try and rebuild the pac man map

[silk tinsel]

2D platforming ftw! Reminds me of 2D type from Mars Wars mod lol

[gaunt lotus]

oh lmfao

goober liq has tricked you into making RF teeworlds

[brave crown]

Lmao

[gaunt lotus]

what a schemer

[desert crown]

Ok but imagine how funny its gonna look when he ladder glitches in 2d

[gaunt lotus]

u should also override firing from eye for 2d modr

then draw the laser from the gun

[brave crown]

thats a good idea

shooting from eye is wonky in this kind of perspective

[gaunt lotus]

its wonky in full 3d too for the same reason but less annoying

[brave crown]

this is pretty funny lol

[viral light]

@brave crown

[brave crown]

@viral light

[wraith comet]

@brave crown

I don't know why we're doing this, but it's fun.

I love pinging Goober without context.

[dire geode]

made progress.

also fixed player movement, but it'll be digital movement for now.

[brave crown]

why, out of curiosity? was that your intention?

I ask because at least in theory analog movement should be entirely practical

[dire geode]

long story

fixing joystick movement (was bigger priority), later tried getting analog joystick next but encountered issues

but i'll give it a go tomorrow

[brave crown]

Awesome! 🙂

[dire geode]

I might need guidance on the analog movement at some point, but we'll see how it'll goes

[brave crown]

for reference, physics_simulate_entity at 0x0049F3C0 is where velocity and such are applied based on movement input, so that's a good place to start looking when it's time

[split sleet]

https://tenor.com/view/yes-brain-pinky-and-the-brain-animaniacs-warner-bros-gif-13425503409353998312

oh imagine 2d rf railgun potential

soo nasty

[boreal ether]

goober, you know we was talking about textures been added to packfile, did you included Display_Fullscreen_Image event? just been scratching me head for 30 mins

[brave crown]

Yes

Bolt emitters, liquid surfaces, fullscreen image events, swap textures events, and crater bitmap

[crude oyster]

Just came across a DX11 bug. Seems when you have super dense high particle counts, they start to strobe in DX11 but not DX9. 🤔

[brave crown]

Thx for that note, will have to look into that. Initial impression is that it might be the lighting not applying on certain frames though im not sure why that would happen. Will need to see

[brave crown]

:p

needed a way to see the player (and other entities) when they're behind geometry

also fixed up the aim angle issues

[boreal ether]

dude omg, the transparency is wild

[brave crown]

yeah im pleased with it. Applies to detail and mover brushes

(if it applies to the normal world, you see through the map)

so any geometry that needs to be between the player and the camera should be detail, basically

and any geo used in sidescroller levels should be rf2-style geo because then you can see through the geoable brush as the player walks through it

[nimble sierra]

Very exciting. can't wait to make some Spelunky inspired maps

can there be a way to zoom out so you can see more of the map?

[brave crown]

technically yes absolutely, but the UX and implications on mapping come into play there