speculations

[dawn parcel]

Bully also didn't got testing when it got buffed

[civic trellis]

before they released that unholy piece of wtf

[broken spoke]

My guess is and

[steady quiver]

I just care about scribe

[civic trellis]

thats because it wasnt so insanely change that it was inescappeable.

[fleet hawk]

Gentlewolf needs rework imo

[steady quiver]

gentle is literally a downgrade from guardian

[fleet hawk]

Its not ready for release

[dawn parcel]

The only change spy got was 4 > 3 checks

[broken spoke]

I agree

[dawn parcel]

So it's kinda the same

[civic trellis]

tbh, agreed. the ability premise is fine, but in execution i feel it easily needs more to its kit. its somehow weaker than paci

and thats a low fucking bar

[broken spoke]

But they released ft, which still is bad so it wont be impossible for gentle to get released

[fleet hawk]

Ft existed for years already

[civic trellis]

that was more so them pushing a role out to appease the people who were annoyed that the last roles released were absolute garbage, and they just wanted to test the waters.

[broken spoke]

I mean the rework

[fleet hawk]

Ig they just release ft so as to not deal with any balance change for it

[civic trellis]

and honestly, FT isnt that bad, if nothing else its a self claim, and its better than BR.

[dawn parcel]

Gentle should have the +1 vote for each 4 vill alive as passive and just get 1 safe in general imo

[civic trellis]

is garbage

[fleet hawk]

And to reduce chance of getting avenger too

[civic trellis]

like seriously

please god

bell ringer

is fucking bad

Its like peanut. (pvz 2 term here)

[fleet hawk]

Thank god i got avenger before is a thing

[steady quiver]

eh its a much better version of lm so i wouldnt say its bad

[civic trellis]

I will just say, much as it is annoying, i would perfer current FT over its prior version, and wanting to never play BR again.

[fleet hawk]

Worse peashooter and wallnut, sucks in the world it got demonstrated

[steady quiver]

the lm problems comes from u having to die to actually be useful so eh

[civic trellis]

i mean its mainly just because the role compression was ass

[steady quiver]

u still are unreliable as br but u dont need to die urself to be useful

[marsh wyvern]

Not really, scribe has many downsides.
-Scribe can only use it's ability at day time so if wolf seer checks an important role they have to wait until next night to hide their role.
-Scribe can only hide twice but confusion can hide up to 10 players.
-Confusion is faster than scribe. Scribe needs to survive 3 days to use all abilities while confusion needs to survive just a day.
-Scribe requires more skill than confusion, and if used correctly it can trick village and be more useful than confusion.

[civic trellis]

peanuts shots are long range like a peanut, but what the fuck is the point of the defensive side if your gonna be at the near close areas.

[civic trellis]

Scribe is, if i would say it

confusion, but more balanced.

also, fun fact scribe can help conju.

if that scribe is dumb

[civic trellis]

also we just. dont mention trickster here.

[marsh wyvern]

I kinda agree, except it's only duty is not hiding roles.

[dawn parcel]

That's why you should always use the bh kill option and disguise them as the weakest ww

[civic trellis]

Trickster, i honestly feel is fine, but it needs more uses of its ability

[steady quiver]

u should just change roles with scribe and use ww kill

no other way would be reliable

[civic trellis]

maybe give it 1, maybe 2 more? and trickster would be decent.

its just for a role so hard to play, your ability is lack luster as all fuck

[marsh wyvern]

Just hide roles that has inventory

I mean

[civic trellis]

mhm, true, but uh. uselessness of scribe atp

so

ye

also dont make it bully. seriously jesus

i made a scribes life hell

for making somebody scribed as bully

that dude didnt have a fun time at all.

cause fun lil fact

[dawn parcel]

Why so

[civic trellis]

bully may have a inventory

but he still keeps the inf rocks

it dosent clear them.

[dawn parcel]

Wasn't there a fix that conj doesn't get the inv for a scribed fake role

[civic trellis]

yes, but that dosent affect bullys non kill rocks.

it just makes it to where you cant kill with em

[dawn parcel]

💀

[civic trellis]

mhm

so yeah i may or may not

have used 4 rocks

on that scribe

that scribes game was very unfun.

tbh the role i most wanna see is a tie

on one hand, give me lurker, i got mythic gr for a reason

on the other hand, gimme anarchist. i wanna cause chaos

[marsh wyvern]

Give us spy, morti is trash and requires no skill at all and detective is just boring at this point. We need something that requires skill

[steady quiver]

anarchist is op in qg

they really just be random voting everyone

[civic trellis]

i mean, hey their own fault if they cause their own loss

[marsh wyvern]

What if there are multiple Anarchists? Who would win?

[civic trellis]

tbh the only thing i hoped they changed was lurker getting the ability to kill if the rest of its team dies, that was the only issue i saw with it

[steady quiver]

ww would probably just kill anarchist at that point to avoid an accidental loss

[civic trellis]

all of them.

[dawn parcel]

All

[marsh wyvern]

Interesting

[civic trellis]

and the only reason i felt the need for lurker to get a kill is, its basically the defenition of

"your fucked, and your not gonna be doing shit about it"

[dawn parcel]

I still remember a bug with Anarchist for wws where if the wolf seer checked them it would say they couldn't be killed by the wws at night

Which wasn't the case

[steady quiver]

it would be op as rv, not much as fixed

ppl will be much more careful if it's fixed

[civic trellis]

naw jit make it a reality

[steady quiver]

or just vote them like they do with hh

[civic trellis]

anarchists twist? it cant be killed by anyone but the village

[marsh wyvern]

Exactly

QoL or quest rework?

Maybe friend quests

Or

Clan quests

Yeah that's why i wanted to see 3

[civic trellis]

#1190971547247185940 ive done smth evil

dude, if i dont see lurker again imma cry

i made mythic gr just for lurker :C

[short epoch]

3 is new role

[civic trellis]

leave with your heracy.

[short epoch]

go 4 first

[civic trellis]

Now.

if your skill issued

[marsh wyvern]

Anyway they have 12 hours left until the update so they have to speedrun reveals

[dawn parcel]

Oh right

[civic trellis]

lurkers good, its like wwf but more of a challenge.

people who play lurkers like that are bad.

[dawn parcel]

Cuz it's new years we prob get the update instantly

[civic trellis]

just. outright.

[dawn parcel]

Just like last year with dark magic

[civic trellis]

is gonna be a year old

[teal ravine]

Lurker mfs : im lurker shoot me. How is it "challenge"

[civic trellis]

if your not a coward who goes for the village win its more of a challenge

[dawn parcel]

Personally I would just not shoot them and lynch them instead

[civic trellis]

anyone who plays lurker for the village win unless its out of their control is a coward, and i hold no respect for that individual

[marsh wyvern]

I think lurker should be converted into a villager if the game ends before someone attacks them. And if someone attacks them, except for villagers, they will join attacker's team.

[steady quiver]

Then it would just make lurker a better cursed

[civic trellis]

a really good protector but it was limited use, more or less nwm but ehhhhh

[dawn parcel]

Lurker literally has no team and also has 0 downsides with faking roles and cause complete chaos

[steady quiver]

Basically provable bg

[marsh wyvern]

Not really lurker still can't kill at night

[dawn parcel]

Why waste it all just to be instantly vill team

[steady quiver]

Yeah but the ability to easily win aint something good

[marsh wyvern]

Also i think this would be better for setup balance

[civic trellis]

tbh, the only thing i feel from that that i feel would be fine being added, would be it gets to kill if its a non villager and its the last of its team.

mainly just because

dear god

the last part of games when your team dies as lurker

fucking sucks.

If imma go down atleast let me murder people

[civic trellis]

tbh i hope i see in the patch notes that gr is its own team at the start of the game. or gr got a actual rework

Because GR, is just.. wierd were its at.

[dawn parcel]

That's true

[broken spoke]

I miss locksmith

[teal ravine]

Cursed ingame = weaker ww team and then that one mf turning to a doc

[broken spoke]

I hope it gets reworked soon

[marsh wyvern]

Maybe that's why they choose village

[dawn parcel]

Ls doesn't need more reworks

It's fine as Bg advanced

[civic trellis]

cause atleast from a gr mains perspective, please god give me the chance to not have to be a lil goody two shoes and try to not get my tg lynched. i wanna become somethin else

if gr was on its own team i wouldnt have to help the villagers at the start of the game anymore, i would be freeeeeeeeeee

[dawn parcel]

Or turn into Bh/Sheriff

Any roles are fine except those

[steady quiver]

Gr is fun ngl😂😂

[steady quiver]

Its a provable bg its clearly not

Every Game i turn to a different role

[teal ravine]

Boring asf

[steady quiver]

Bruh

[teal ravine]

Not always + those roles are boring asf

[steady quiver]

I know

But

It is better compare to cursed

Am I wrong?

😂😂

[civic trellis]

Eh, sheriff and bh i feel are fine, especially with the fact that your open for a day given the wws keep tabs on you, its up to the wws if they decide your a threat or not

[steady quiver]

I mean I hate ww fan tbh

[civic trellis]

tbh i love wwf.

[steady quiver]

Yea really different tastes

[civic trellis]

its just for people who like cursed, but not the limits

[broken spoke]

I love wwf too

[civic trellis]

aka, not being able to side with the wws from the start

[fleet hawk]

Cursed, gr and lurker are all pretty passive role in its tree

Only wwf is the active one

[teal ravine]

Throw legally 🥵🥵

[bitter pawn]

i love gl

[teal ravine]

Get a life

[steady quiver]

Lol

Bro

Dont push that hard😂😂

I like it

Too

This female avatar prob one of the best

In christmas

[fast oar]

Cutie

[steady quiver]

Ngl his male version looks like a boy in depression

[civic trellis]

i mean with cursed, your usually fucked, and you cant help yourself in most situations

[steady quiver]

Cursed bad fr

[civic trellis]

i mean the reason wwf exists in the first place is because ranked cursed players played smart and got punished for it, and then they made the angel that is wwf.

[teal ravine]

Help ww = being reported
Dont = lose the game

Cursed sucks

[steady quiver]

Ahahhaah

Yea

Agree to that

[fleet hawk]

As ww fan you are born to help ww as a paradoxical abomination of a role

[steady quiver]

Unfortunately its just how it is
Its the most balanced in the tree but also the most boring one

[teal ravine]

Cursed is just a pawn, change my mind

[civic trellis]

hence why wwf exists

so you can say fuck that

[steady quiver]

Guys have u ever thought about a role who can change roles two other people

[civic trellis]

imma be a smart boi

[steady quiver]

?

[civic trellis]

i mean tbf nah.

[steady quiver]

In real mafia card game there is a role called bus driver

[civic trellis]

tbh*

[steep hinge]

Naughty boy from wov offline:

[steady quiver]

Who can change role cards of two players

[broken spoke]

Naughty boy from Wolvesville original

I think

[steady quiver]

Oh

There is a role

In ww offline

Wow

[steep hinge]

Git removed

I think

[steady quiver]

If they work on it

It can be a great role

Imo

[teal ravine]

Would be unfair asf, a ww mf turning to vill and call out the whole ww team

[civic trellis]

little girl was a wierd role.

[fleet hawk]

And theres also little girl, a support informer like red lady

[civic trellis]

but i really liked it.

[steady quiver]

Yea they should fix that somehow

[fleet hawk]

Its rng based in the wov app

[steady quiver]

I exclude it

😂😂😂

[broken spoke]

I liked Mad Scientist in ww offline

[steady quiver]

What was that about?

Idk those roles

[broken spoke]

Its chaotic

[patent sandal]

that once exists?

what's that role about

[fleet hawk]

As little girl each night u can open eyes slightly to see whos the ww but if ww caught u looking at them then u due

Die

[steady quiver]

Lmao

How will it work

In wolvesville

Hmmm

[fleet hawk]

That role

Is not intendedfor wov tbh

[steady quiver]

I know it is for a group of people playing in person

[broken spoke]

Ye

[fleet hawk]

Itsfor offline games

[steady quiver]

Yess

[fleet hawk]

Where u can peek with ur little eyeball

[steady quiver]

But Tbh i dont wanna let those roles go to waste

[broken spoke]

I tried it playing by myself, and i found all the wws

[steady quiver]

Lmao

Just blink one sec

And see eveyone's face

[fleet hawk]

But wov has some kind of equivalent that is

[steady quiver]

Red lady

Bruh

I always choose gl over rl

Idk why

Unless i have a mission

[broken spoke]

Cuz icon is pretty

[steady quiver]

FR

[fleet hawk]

I choose red lady whenever i want to get out of a game asap lol

[steady quiver]

Lmaoooo I do that too

Ahaahha

[fleet hawk]

Claim, visit, die and leave

[steady quiver]

No I visit d1

[civic trellis]

btw yal wanna give a opinion on a meme feedback i made lol

[steady quiver]

Directly

If i wanna leave

[civic trellis]

#1190971547247185940

pft.

[fleet hawk]

Or quicker dont claim and visit nQ1

[steady quiver]

I like that idea

It is good

I voted for that

[elder sandal]

how to get dino hat pls

[fleet hawk]

U should ask in #questions

[patent sandal]

the 2024 hat?

[elder sandal]

yes

[teal ravine]

Nah it's a easter egg, #questions wont answer that

[patent sandal]

should i tell them how to get that

[steady quiver]

Everyone

Already answered that

So no secret left

[patent sandal]

lol, DM "Happy New Year" to your in game friend

there you go

[steady quiver]

Neither easter nor egg left

[bitter pawn]

lol

[elder sandal]

but i didnt got it

[patent sandal]

try resetting the game

[steady quiver]

Restart game

Still am waiting for shirt

Tomorrow

[patent sandal]

same....

[steady quiver]

I need those wings

[opaque mulch]

It would be appreciated if you could stick to serious suggestions only. Someone will read it and someone will take time to review and reply to it
Don't "meme" around with people's time

[civic trellis]

i realized now i hadnt made it clear, at the time it had been more or less a joke idea, but i made it into a serious suggestion.

[opaque mulch]

I left your post open

[civic trellis]

k. just wanted to clarify that.

[daring parcel]

#item-previews message
the role icon in the calendar or again only for trading with someone?

[spare harness]

And for the shirt ?

[dire solstice]

Via gifting

[daring parcel]

why all the time gifting

I hate it bc there are not that much people which you can trust

[dire solstice]

Every calendar has a gift reward so why not
(Means +1 item/icon each time on top of the regular 31 calender day tiers) 🤔

That's what #exchanges can be used for

[daring parcel]

@dire solstice

[solid abyss]

You know some of us have trust issues 🙃 if they were item there is no problem since its not borther you a lot

But putting icon in the gifting is not okay infact Im gonna do feed-back about these -> There are casses with scam a lot I see so its normal peiple dont trust each other + the icon is the whort only things for cals most of the time

[daring parcel]

exactly

[dire solstice]

Sure, that's what #1052307374179885226 is for.

[true crown]

Bro where is 2.role icon

[frigid ermine]

The 2nd role icon can be obtained by gifting this advent calendar to other player.

[true crown]

How can I find all easter eggs

Can somebody know

[daring parcel]

#dev-vote message
so when I understand that correctly you can see messages from 14 and 16 when you are 15 for example

[unique elm]

Ask @dusky perch

He knows everything

[sharp python]

if you are 15, you should be able to see 14, 16 and 11 if they implement my version

but if theyd truly implement my version, you can use PRIVATE chats with these people, which allows for claiming Detective to nr 11, claiming Doc to 14 and Med to 16 for example, which is what truly makes this gamemode great

but I think they work with ''send a message and your neighbours will all see the same message'', which removes half of the fun of it

anyways, I will be streaming Secret Sources in a couple minutes, so if anyone is interested in trying to before the game officially has it, come and watch & play 🤗

[solid abyss]

With gifting 🤡

[daring parcel]

thx

[dapper summit]

Is the 2024 T-Shirt available?

[quick marsh]

why did people vote for it when we already knew enough

[hot trout]

Nop

[young fable]

we would know soon enough anyways...

[quick marsh]

this guy is spitting facts lol. i aint risking 450 gems for a chance of getting scammed (which is big

[quick marsh]

i mean we will know all of them eventually but 4 was a better option imo

[short ether]

I voted for 4 from the start

[real coral]

people when we show them the concept of waiting:

[young fable]

lisa typing

[carmine swift]

1 role icone

[real coral]

they're all going to be revealed eventually

and we even know them first here thanks to speculations channel

[twin cloak]

ko bt

[real coral]

spending 450 gems and encouraging gifting for an icon are insane 💀

[quick marsh]

and people when they get told the same thing but in #dev-vote (they are satisfied)

[real coral]

Lisa prolly will rush the last two in #dev-vote to make it in time for the update

[carmine swift]

yes

[real coral]

Or maybe hide one in the official update's changelog

[short ether]

That's why there is an exchange channel in the server once u reach level 9

[real coral]

But still, 450 gems for a single icon

💸

[short ether]

The ideal thing is gift someone and that person gifts you

[quick marsh]

cals are only really worth it for the icons lets be honest

[short ether]

👎

[real coral]

This is the only good approach I'm afraid

[vague heath]

#vietnamese or speak English

[quick marsh]

and 450 gems for a single gift-reward icon just isnt worth it

[short ether]

That's why you trade...

[real coral]

Unless you fully rely on a person to gift you back the cal

Exchange

Then you can get the full bundle for the same amount

[quick marsh]

not everybody have a trusted friends lol. besides still not worth for a single icon imo

[short ether]

Hell nah, i have been exchanging calendar since months, and they are not even my friends

They are random ppl

[humble relic]

I mean I’m in a good position where I play it with my girlfriend irl and we gift each other.

But others have to potentially trust people they don’t know which will lead to scams, gifting ees never made logical sense, it increases odds of people getting scammed

[quick marsh]

i only exchanged once and that scared me enough, no thx

[short ether]

I'm not the one making the rules

[silent badge]

Does someone know how to get the 2024 dragon shirt? I dont get how its possible

[short ether]

Maybe in january 1

[vague heath]

Do you know this

[mortal shore]

i did it

[flat blade]

We be talking about how useless 4 is in #dev-vote and start discussing whether 3 is just scribe ww or spy/lurker included

[bitter wadi]

LMAOOO

[mortal shore]

its the only item i have that fits and it’s perfect 😂

[lost shard]

Bingus

[flat blade]

@bitter wadi YOU KNOW OUR DEAL

[bitter wadi]

NUH UH

[lost shard]

Why are you always getting into trouble

[flat blade]

https://tenor.com/view/kazuma-kiryu-kiryu-yakuza-yakuza6-gif-22779891

[solid abyss]

Its fell like something I cant pull it of but

[dusky perch]

Fun fact
That eyes wont change until u clear cache

[dusky perch]

Only staff

[dusk hemlock]

new staff position?

[short ether]

Translators aren't staff,right?

[dusk hemlock]

translators usually receive staff only reward too

[dusky perch]

No just any staff that helped with tags

Staff

[solid abyss]

Whats tags I dont see any?

[dusk hemlock]

#dev-vote

[short ether]

The ones that will be in the update

[dusky perch]

They receive special item and not staff items

[dusk hemlock]

arent they the same tho

[short ether]

Nah

Guardian are more like staff and that

Moderation

I don't moderate

I translate

👍

[dusty pier]

what’s 3 in #dev-vote?

any idea anyone?

[dusk hemlock]

new role

[dusty pier]

which 🙈

[solar ravine]

99% scribe

[dusk hemlock]

scribe wolf or spy, or both

[mortal shore]

?

[dusty pier]

there is a werewolf paw so I think it’s a new wolf role

[true crown]

how u guys learnıng easter eggs

[dusk hemlock]

it is the icon of scribe wolf

[dusty pier]

scribe wolf is the one that can change the kill cause?

[dusk hemlock]

thats right

[solar ravine]

Scribe wolf is fun

[finite nest]

So still no lurk 😦

[dusky perch]

nvm thought its bugged at lower place lol just saw ur quest

[dusty pier]

ooo okay

[dusk hemlock]

lurker concept is good in paper, but garbage execution

you waste your (future) team a kill, in exchange for just one member

[dusty pier]

is just but can turn into

[real coral]

cursed:

[dusk pivot]

Hey! I moderate

I don't translate

[dusk hemlock]

cursed can vote to kill

[steady quiver]

Lurker is ehh

[real coral]

it's main gameplay is still waiting for your future team to waste a kill on you

[short ether]

[steady quiver]

u could just do nothing and win like cursed but take it to the next level

[true crown]

guys who want to exchange new callendar toworrom?

[steady quiver]

Cuz afaik lurker do count towards win con

[dusky perch]

cap
translate manager who moderate

[dusty pier]

what does do again?

[dusk hemlock]

you still can participate in the kill vote and carry after all your teammate is dead

[dusk pivot]

Ello salem

[dusky perch]

heyo

[short ether]

hola salem

[dusk pivot]

Hey! The channel language is English here

[real coral]

when cursed has more utility than the compared role, you know the role is absolute garbage

[dusty pier]

^ 🙈

[dusky perch]

its make sense lol

[finite nest]

Check 4 players to see if at least one of them killed (must be exaclty 4). The followinf night choose one of them to see if they are vill or not

[short ether]

He has both roles

Helper and trial helper

[dusk pivot]

It's a personal choice xD

I like the role

[dusty pier]

isn’t that + ?

[dusk pivot]

It reminds me of the beginning 🥺

[short ether]

The more the greater

[glacial bone]

[dusk pivot]

NAWWWW

[real coral]

Memory moment

[dusk pivot]

I didn't see the 2024

[real coral]

[dusk pivot]

Super cute

[dusk pivot]

Yeees

[finite nest]

Kinda of. Just keep in mind that ss can choose UP TO 2 ppl. Spy HAS TO chose 4 ppl

No more no less

[real coral]

This dragon has some non-english letters on them?

[mortal shore]

its aesthetic ⭐️

[short ether]

A e s t h e t i c 💕

[dusty pier]

so is family?

[alpine kestrel]

it means 2024 they said

[finite nest]

Nope, it's in the det role tree

[dusty pier]

but isn’t stronger?

[short ether]

Finally an advanced role for det

Mortician is boring

[real coral]

why are different languages allowed in public paywall contents

[short ether]

🥲

[finite nest]

Idk tbh. I had the chance to try it just a few times

[dusty pier]

is with steps though?

[short ether]

Is gambler's lost cousin

[real coral]

it is currently way too overpowered, being able to clear at least 1/4 of the lobby in one check

[finite nest]

I agree on that. You kinda just click on a dead player and that's it

[dusty pier]

oooo

[short ether]

yes

[real coral]

counting you too, that is nearly 1/3 of the entire lobby

too OP

[dusty pier]

is family just mass informers?

[finite nest]

Yeah, but then the next night it has to recheck those ppl again

[lyric hare]

On the other hand having to check players again that were confirmed good in the following night

[finite nest]

I see det role tree more like an imprecise source of info

[real coral]

there's a scenario where you can push the four, actually lynch one of the four, and can check 2/3 remaining players, further pushing

[finite nest]

But that's how i see it

[short ether]

So with det in 2 nights you check 4 ppl, but with spy you check the same 4 ppl those 2 nights

I never played spy so idk

[finite nest]

Ok, didn't think of that. That's kinda of op

[dusty pier]

but can’t bypass ?

[real coral]

the thing is, the four players checked by spy are role called the moment spy call them out

while det do that over the course of two days

[lyric hare]

I think spy

Idk abt scribe, its kinda overpowered atm

[true crown]

can someone know how we take wıngs

[true gorge]

definitely not

[finite nest]

Absolutely. But you don't know which of the suspects is the killer

[lyric hare]

They changed that to 3

Nerf nerf

[true gorge]

I don't think that's confirmed

[lyric hare]

rumors say

They wont add it with 4

[real coral]

definitely not with 4 LOL

[finite nest]

Yeah 4 is way too much

[true gorge]

Same rumors that said " is getting added this update"

[finite nest]

*proceed to let them check 15 players in one night

[lyric hare]

My sources told me its spy with 3 checks

and only spy

[dusty pier]

I want to be added it’s a cool idea!

[lyric hare]

it wasnt really of any use tho

[dusty pier]

it was though 🙈

[true gorge]

I personally do not enjoy it, but i wish it got added, such a good role

[finite nest]

Yeah that role was awesome. It also gave more importance to

[lyric hare]

not as much as gww

[true gorge]

Two lynching protections is definitely better than one

[dusty pier]

I don’t enjoy any family of but I enjoyed

[lyric hare]

It usually only works with cpl, most of the time.the reduction was kinda not enough

[true gorge]

Skill issue

[lyric hare]

I think they gonna buff it and bring it back to sb

[true gorge]

Every single match i used the ability was used twice

Either that or i died night one

[lyric hare]

the stats are on my side then, its more losses for ww than with gww

Otherwise theyd have added it

[dusty pier]

It’s the strongest out of

[lyric hare]

unless its more wins for ww, but i doubt that

[dusty pier]

is weaker in essence

[true gorge]

The same stats that tell is stronger than ?

[finite nest]

Man wp really sucks. I have the veteran card, but still choose gww

[lyric hare]

alchemist is overpowered

[true gorge]

Overrated*

[steady quiver]

eh not really

[short ether]

Wolf Pacifist is 👎👎

[lyric hare]

Yeah but the stats are pretty similar

[steady quiver]

u do lose the surprise factor plus ur kill is kinda predictable

[true gorge]

Tbh it kinda is

[dusty pier]

my favourite role is but my least favourite werewolf is 🙈

[lyric hare]

With arso alchemist

[true gorge]

Stats don't mattter tbh

[lyric hare]

Thats why they test it bruh

[finite nest]

Kinda funny how is weaker than , but the same cannot be said for and

[lyric hare]

To see if its balanced

And one way or another gentlewolf failed

[dusty pier]

it’s because a reveal is bad for the werewolves but good for the village

[steady quiver]

.

[true gorge]

How?

[lyric hare]

It wouldve been added if uts balanced wouldnt it

[true gorge]

And also because it's just ctrl c + ctrl v into a wolf

[steady quiver]

gentle wolf is actually pretty fine

[finite nest]

I remember when alc first came out. It was so trashy

[true gorge]

[dusty pier]

I agree! I would rather that over

[lyric hare]

They always have a comparison setup in sandbox, a normal one to see if the games are blanced

Tww is cool too

[true gorge]

Yeah i think it's one of the most balanced roles in a while

[steady quiver]

and a somewhat creative idea once in a while

[lyric hare]

Siren great aswell

[finite nest]

Op af

[true gorge]

Bro could just force people to reveal their roles

[lyric hare]

Ft trash but that one they added cuz they needed the role back

[dusty pier]

is a weaker

[steady quiver]

annoying bc its literally need its own setup

cant be put normally

[finite nest]

Like now, but players evils had to reveal their true role

[lyric hare]

No sirens kinda good

[true gorge]

Lmao that's why you are saying is bad
Clearly no sense of balancement whatsoever

[finite nest]

It was basically confirming three people on day one

[lyric hare]

Bro have you ever played those roles?

[true gorge]

Even i, who actively play every day, recognize it's bad

[dusty pier]

it has the lowest killing possibility out of

[true gorge]

Yes?
I would not discuss about it if i did not

[finite nest]

A fun role? Yes. Underpowered? Hell yeah

[true gorge]

The only role i did not play from all of those is

[dusty pier]

I heard they changed

[lyric hare]

Thats why binding exists

[steady quiver]

its just mayor 2.0 i wouldnt want to play that anyway

[dusty pier]

what is ’s new ability?

[true gorge]

The only time i got a win was in All random

[steady quiver]

the binding doesnt help the siren

[lyric hare]

Not always no

[dusty pier]

that doesn’t benefit if they’re going to die anyway

[true gorge]

It does not justify the lack of piercing and slow killing rate

[finite nest]

Evils can choose to reveal as another role

[steady quiver]

bc all the binded players will die one way or another

[finite nest]

Basically it has become a glorified claim

[dusty pier]

so what’s the point of if reveals can be edited

[lyric hare]

Nothing

Reveal = claim

No use at all

[true gorge]

Tbh almost never,
If the entranced players want, they can just suicide with you

[lyric hare]

Trash role

[finite nest]

That's the point

[true gorge]

Still a self provable role

[lyric hare]

Yeah if they want

[dusty pier]

ohhh I thought can give cards and reveals were their real roles

[true gorge]

And they will
Which makes the ability pointless

[lyric hare]

So? Its useless

Self provable roles are overrated, theres mayor and we dont need useless ft

[dusty pier]

is a family with as it can be proved?

[true gorge]

Still better than i guess

[lyric hare]

I mean villagers get forced to reveal their real role. Wws can however disguise

[steady quiver]

eh no ft doesnt affect vote

[lyric hare]

So basixally helps ww more

[finite nest]

No.

[true gorge]

Imagine hurting your own team

[lyric hare]

Lm better

[finite nest]

Avg better ngl

[dusty pier]

why ?

[steady quiver]

funny how ft still have no place in any role tree

rework huh

[dusty pier]

how do and have similarities?

[lyric hare]

Yeah thats why its such a trash

[lyric hare]

Reveal ig?

[steady quiver]

heres the fun thing they dont

[dusty pier]

but

[true gorge]

Nah is one of the most useless roles ever lmao
His ability is comparable to levels

[lyric hare]

Idk, ft just kinda feels like "we have to re-add it"

[true gorge]

It's just an easy fake claim for evils

[lyric hare]

I enjoy both

[finite nest]

Still better than today's ft

[real coral]

fc shines in insti team

[dusty pier]

theme doesn’t even fit anymore with new ability

[real coral]

lm fucking sucks everywhere lol

[true gorge]

I cannot contradict personal opinions

[true gorge]

[steady quiver]

ft still doenst fit in any role tree despite being reworked

[true gorge]

Tbh it's not that far

[lyric hare]

Anyways, can we talk about the real problem that they will add wolf scribe

[finite nest]

[true gorge]

is useful wdym?

[lyric hare]

Ft can be deleted and no effect on game really

[true gorge]

True lmao

[lyric hare]

They gotta rework it again

[finite nest]

Sorry i missed the point there. Ignore what i wrote

[true gorge]

[lyric hare]

But if they add scribe ww will.be op anyways

[steady quiver]

eh the only problems with wolf scribe is it being an advanced of shaman really

[true gorge]

🤓

[lyric hare]

the role is better for ww team really haha

[finite nest]

How i see lm

[true gorge]

Ngl golden looks like 🤓 emoji

[true gorge]

lmao

[dusty pier]

is weaker than

[true gorge]

Agree

[finite nest]

Absolutly

[lyric hare]

The problem with scribe is it being included as random ww

This will screw up village team

[true gorge]

Nah that's fault, not

[steady quiver]

idk theres also voodoo, berserk

those are like way better

[true gorge]

[dusty pier]

should maybe do 2x shamans over 1x? like and his ability

[lyric hare]

Yeah but if you dont know that theres disguises...

Thats problematic

The rest is ok

[true gorge]

Tbh still useless against half village members

[finite nest]

and > >

[lyric hare]

Cww scribe need nerf, trickster need buff

[finite nest]

Better than no buff at all

[steady quiver]

me when every informer role tree have one role that counters it

[lyric hare]

Also i think shamans better than trickster

[dusty pier]

maybe the problem is role dependence? like can bypass?

[dusty pier]

is good with skill

high skill high reward

[true gorge]

I like having a hidden
Makes the game more chaotic
Besides, people will just get used to it anyway

[lyric hare]

i didnt say its bad

I just think shamans better

[steady quiver]

shaman is eh decent

[lyric hare]

im tired of those op ww roles being added

[finite nest]

Yeah + it only works with informative roles

[steady quiver]

just every other roles in their treec being better than them tbf

[dusty pier]

in comparison to

[finite nest]

If there are no info role ig shaman becomes useless

[lyric hare]

they still didnt limit influencer ability

[true gorge]

Flawed logic when you consider roles such as (still like the buff tho)

[lyric hare]

Insti also need a nerf ig

[true gorge]

Ah yes Op werewolfs
Like village cannot kill 3 evils in a single day

[lyric hare]

Kinda hate that it can kill corr in 1v1

[steady quiver]

the setup is flawed eh

cupid card is justa big problem

[dusty pier]

why doesn’t work in reverse? like selecting a werewolf each night to appear as a village role?

[finite nest]

[dusty pier]

this could be more useful ^

[lyric hare]

Yeah but thats different, insti has their whole team.idk, i feel corr wins are just so mich harder

[steady quiver]

bc insti can replace a rk while cupid is literally just only third party

[lyric hare]

Flagger can be countered

[sudden robin]

Ah yes I do like op game breaking suggestions

[finite nest]

That's true af

[true gorge]

"So this role can stop evils from acting at all with a single button, while also killing them "
"Oh yes perfectly balanced for a rrv"

"So, this role can change kills two times, even tho having two braincells completely negates his ability "
"OMG WHY IS WOV SO WW SIDED NERF IT"

[lyric hare]

wolfluencer, insti, astro are the roles im.waiting for a nerf for ages

[finite nest]

Reversed shaman is also an oversuggested role in #1063482890480005130

[dusty pier]

can be limited to a particular number of usages?

[sudden robin]

The moment they gave insti the ability to kill they should have just put it to bandit advance

[gloomy cargo]

nerf Village

[true gorge]

Nerf village

[finite nest]

Nerf

[steady quiver]

its only op if u consider them in the terms of cards but isnt op any other way

[true gorge]

Devs think it's too op

[lyric hare]

Its not my.point that village doesnt have op roles. Its just not the solution to ad op ww roles, but rather to kerf the op village roles, but everyones just too singleminded on their "ah village op, give us better wolves"

[dusty pier]

yet proceed with 🙈

[true gorge]

Tbh i want better

[steady quiver]

its not op btw

like generally its not op

[true gorge]

It doesn't even come close to what a strong ww should be

[lyric hare]

Fluencer still hasnt got its limit of ability to 4 uses

[steady quiver]

only when we put cards in does it become actual op

[lyric hare]

Have 4 jwws, village wins, have 4 fluencers, game over

[dusty pier]

and are better suited to eachother 🙈

[lyric hare]

Or village MIGHT win with jww

[true gorge]

The only real "Strong" ww example in the game is
( is just essential, don't bring it in)

[lyric hare]

i say fluencer

2 shadow wolf ok, 2 fluencers thats a pain

[steady quiver]

wolfflu is still the weakest wolf in term of bh strength

[true gorge]

It's balanced if you think enough abt it
Just really, really annoying

Like really annoying

[steady quiver]

man i cant wait for bullets to wreck this

having some kind of info is more useful than u would think so eh

[lyric hare]

Its been too much of a while since they changed any roles anyways

[true crown]

guys how can I take Discord Booster Outfit when I boost thıs server

[lone spade]

you need to open a reward ticket in #bot-commands

[ocean ore]

I respectfully tell you that I am totally against limiting the ability of the ww influence, it is an ability that deserves throughout the game (I'm sure that more than half the server agrees)

[ocean ore]

Still waiting among the years lol

btw if the insti did survive till the end with corr both deserves the win equally isn't like unfair the fact that the insti can kill corr

[gloomy cargo]

strong

[true crown]

whıch command I need to wrıte...

[lone spade]

I’ll tell you in #bot-commands

[gloomy cargo]

a village that doesnt vote is pretty at a loss with wolflu

[gloomy cargo]

as villager, I don't like being manipulated the whole game but as wolfu I think it's necessary sometimes

[true gorge]

Average player

[lone spade]

fair but might be better for #wov-chat

[true gorge]

I think it's really unfair being able to kill

[gloomy cargo]

uhm yeah the original reason why I came here. does anyone know how to get the new years shirt yet

[ocean ore]

but wtf.. it's not like it has to happen every exact time. It happens when it is really necessary to change something in some roles and not because of personal occurrences of a single person💀

[gloomy cargo]

or is it still broken

[true gorge]

They should nerf it so attacks are the equivalent of a attack (So no kills unless it's )

[true gorge]

Devs buffing :

[ocean ore]

And you think is fair when the recruits are dead and the insti turn to a practically fool without chance to win at all?

[true gorge]

Did you even read what i wrote?

You know what a is?

[ocean ore]

Ofc I just didn't read that message, a sec

[true gorge]

[ocean ore]

That would be a option idk, don't look so bad but I still liking how is actually

[ocean ore]

Won't be killed by wws then?

[true gorge]

They enabled the sect sacrifice
Which made able to kill wws

Which was completely unnecessary

Considering it was already one of top 3 Solo killers anyway

[ocean ore]

probably you're right on it, but I'm just more into zombie so I don't follow sl statistics much

[true crown]

What do you think is the cheapest way to get the 2nd role icon of the new calendar :3

[true gorge]

Tbh i don't follow statistics at all
is just on sight cracked

It's funny considering state on the game

[ocean ore]

I usually got very lucky when I play as not much with

[ocean ore]

so you like more sl or zombie? Lol

Btw I'm agree with sorcerer is a good role

[hot trout]

Can we please get the 2024 shirt

I beg you

It's new years eve

[ocean ore]

Sameeee

[true crown]

we need to trade calendar or somethıng

[finite nest]

"killers"

[buoyant axle]

For the shirt? The shirt will either be sending "Happy New Year's" in the game chat, winning with someone who has the hat, or sending a rose to someone with the hat. But since you can't say HNY in-game right now, I'd assume it's that one. The Cal EE is a Toxic Wolf icon.

[true crown]

I am tryıng to take toxıc wolf ıcon

[short ether]

Gifting calendar

[buoyant axle]

^ Yeah, only way to get it is to trade Calendars or gift one to your friend. The comment you were replying to didn't load for me, sorry.

[torpid sparrow]

YOOO

LURKER GAMING

[bitter wadi]

YES

YESYESYESYESYREUESUES

OMG

[patent sandal]

I hope nobody immediately claim lurker in first day

[obtuse folio]

any news about the 2024's shirt ?

[dry bane]

Finallyy

[short epoch]

lluker useless -))

[bitter wadi]

if anyone says "im lurker shoot me" im gonna do everything i legally can to not

[cloud cave]

WOW

lurker finally made it

[obtuse folio]

idk ..

[solid abyss]

Agreed

[bitter wadi]

because its the most balanced one (notice how its still unbalanced)
better than those :

altho not sure for spy

[neon pulsar]

Lurker is so boring

[bitter wadi]

according to salem thats the case yeah

but still 2 non villagers is the thing that should be nerfed too ino

[flat blade]

YOOOO LESSS GOOO

[neon pulsar]

Huh

[flat blade]

@torpid sparrow @bitter wadi @civic trellis LURKER GAMING

[steady quiver]

eh im waiting to see if they actually changed anything abt lurker

if its still exactly the same then eh

[neon pulsar]

Hopefully

[bitter wadi]

if i see you play for village as lurker ONCE

[flat blade]

Don't worry babygirl I will never 😘

[bitter wadi]

my ONLY wish is for it to be in insti/forger game

[neon pulsar]

Only helps solo

[bitter wadi]

which insti aint possible

[lost shard]

Ok

[short ether]

Guys

What do you think about my work made in heaven

Am i pretty?

[bitter wadi]

this face is so funny 😭

look at mine too

[short ether]

Slayyy 🫦💅

[bitter wadi]

i would ping nagini but i dont wanna disturb

[flat blade]

Hold on, 3 wasn't roles in #dev-vote? Or am I blind

[cosmic ridge]

How did you this ???

[cosmic ridge]

Your not blind

[torpid sparrow]

WOOOOO

[short ether]

3 was roles

Lurker and scrible

[bitter wadi]

in 5 minutes ill explain

[cosmic ridge]

Okay

[flat blade]

Yeah but check #dev-vote again

They said "Revealing 5"

Not 3

[short ether]

Lol

[torpid sparrow]

Where u get eyes

[short ether]

Maybe mispelled

Idk

[short ether]

Clan quest

[flat blade]

Or possibly even a plot twist

[short ether]

Hopefully

[flat blade]

If it really isn't a typo, 3 is most likely gonna be balance changes

[short ether]

Well, i got golden cursed, maybe when they release another icons event like valentine i will upgrade cursed to mythic

[daring gust]

it already is revealed

[bitter wadi]

first get the gem quest outfit by nagini (provided in ss)
then put a blindfold so the top eyes are covered
and tada

[cosmic ridge]

Ooooh thx

[short ether]

Too bad is gem quest, i dont do clan quests

[flat blade]

@bitter wadi

[short ether]

Im alone in my clan

[quick marsh]

where do u buy it

[short ether]

Clan quest

Gem

[bitter wadi]

clan gem quest

[quick marsh]

its already released?

[short ether]

Yes

[quick marsh]

and yall got it

[bitter wadi]

yesh

yeah

[quick marsh]

damn

[short ether]

Not me

I only checked to see how it was

But didnt bought

[quick marsh]

same here my clan aint skipping 😭

[flat blade]

Roles were revealed but not 3. Roles are 5 (which isn't even in the cover at all) so unless it's a typo, 3 is gonna be balance changes but we're gonna find out in a few hours

[daring gust]

dm

[daring gust]

ah alr

[bitter wadi]

cope

[flat blade]

Check gifts before copping on me

https://tenor.com/view/cope-dont-care-crying-cry-chips-gif-21606846

[short ether]

My clan isn't doing quests 💀💀
Look at my claaan daaawg nah i am going bankrupt 💀💀💀

[real coral]

unless you got gigantic finger like toes, 3 and 5 are far enough to not be a typo

[flat blade]

Invite me

[short ether]

Idk

Its been like that for months, because i dont like doing quests and donating

I hate clans

Too much drama

[flat blade]

cough cough

[short ether]

👍

[flat blade]

https://tenor.com/view/sweats-gif-25346666

[flat blade]

Seems like a chill clan tho

[short ether]

Hmmm fingers 👃

[short ether]

Yeah, maybe i could try doing solo quests

But nah im not doing gem quests

[civic trellis]

Hence why it's going to be an advanced, it's more fun depending on how ya use it but is a worse cursed.

The same exact reason exists for wwf.

[short ether]

Well the fun in wwf is killing another person when you are jailed by warden

I didnt got the chance but maybe some day

[civic trellis]

The fun with lurker is your gr without the shitty rng.

[flat blade]

Wwf is all fun and games till you fake informer and get three wolves killed

[real coral]

jww tags you

[short ether]

And get reported 👎

[civic trellis]

Yeah I once got the rk and 2 wws killed. yeah I got banned for a fucking week

[flat blade]

No fucking way

[short ether]

[civic trellis]

Because half the lobby reported me

[flat blade]

You got banned for it?

[lost shard]

Si

[short ether]

Si

[flat blade]

Did you make a ticket tho? There's no way guards didn't unban you

[civic trellis]

When enough people report ya ya usually get auto banned until a Guardian reviewed it. Somehow the Guardian felt it was fair I got banned when I tried to appeal.

[short ether]

A week is between fair and unfair

[lost shard]

They are sharing something that is real

[civic trellis]

Reviews*

[civic trellis]

Atleast I didn't get a month ban.

[short ether]

Thanks god

[lost shard]

Wait was there a monthly ban

[short ether]

Those quest arent getting completed alone 🔥🔥

[civic trellis]

I saw a friend who got banned for leaking the wws as a rk while he was still alive, dick move still, but yeah

Peeps reported em and his initial ban was a month

[lost shard]

Skill full

[civic trellis]

And all he got for a decrease was 2 weeks.

[short ether]

That shouldn't be happening bcs sk is another team

[flat blade]

Dude I hate playing fool and getting banned for giving correct fake info (Guardians suspect it's cheating)

[civic trellis]

Dude.. sometimes I wonder if the guardians are mentally ok

[lost shard]

He is sharing something fire 🔥

[short ether]

And you need to consider the time they need to check and answer the ticket 💀 +1 week

[bitter wadi]

my friend was autobanned for giving fake info as fool😭

[civic trellis]

I get some of the choices guardians make. But holy jesus

[bitter wadi]

it got temoved tho

[civic trellis]

Some of its absolute bs.

[flat blade]

I'm not saying this game doesn't need guards, I'm thankful but sometimes I feel like they're just doing it out of boredom due to the lack of laziness

[short ether]

One time i got perfect info as fool 🔥🔥 pretending to be seer got every wolf killed i felt like god jk

[lost shard]

I remember one time, I was happy using all random, until I realized, I was only ww and 4 people got slaughtered by sk in n1

Chaos

[civic trellis]

Honestly the reason is that they don't get payed. Which honestly would solve the issue there.

But I don't think they would be able to pay all of the guardians and stay afloat.

[flat blade]

If I was Phillip I wouldn't pay them either tbh

[short ether]

Or maybe gems

[torpid sparrow]

That time i got corrupted as fool and got lynched cuz of det info 🛌 🛌 🛌

[short ether]

Gems are 👍

[flat blade]

Yeah, makes more sense

[lost shard]

Sit down, mythic conjuror is telling us a tales

[civic trellis]

Or that. Designers get payed via gems and stuff. Why not guardians.

[short ether]

"Report for teaming" 🔥🔥🔥🔥

[torpid sparrow]

Giving some gems to 0.0001% of the playerbase would break the economy sorry 💔

[civic trellis]

Seriously I've seen one of the designers card inventorys. They had 5 thousand dollars worth of cards.

[torpid sparrow]

Salem?

[civic trellis]

And I verified that using maths

[civic trellis]

Mhm

[short ether]

All mythics

[civic trellis]

Also uh

[short ether]

And 2 mythic for the same base role

[lost shard]

If there was more neutral typa roles or than killer was

[short ether]

[civic trellis]

Tbh I hope my lycan role idea sees vote eventually.

It was a funny third party.

[torpid sparrow]

So give it powerfull defense eh?

The anarxhist thinf

[lost shard]

Nice

[torpid sparrow]

I cant keyboard

🗿 💀

[lost shard]

I understand dont

[short ether]

It's time to add a new solo role, hh and fool are zzz

[civic trellis]

Mhm. Patch its weakness from evils, and force the Village to have to focus them or risk losing.

[lost shard]

Imagine there was a role that gets powerful each lynch

[short ether]

Or advanced role

[finite nest]

Yeees, lurk will be added. I am so excited

[short ether]

At least

[lost shard]

My advenced headhunter didn't work, I had to close it

But it was most dumbest idea ever created.

They need more

[short ether]

Guardian angel from ToS

Jk

I dont remember if that was his role name

[lost shard]

Counter headhunter

It is guardian angel

[short ether]

Yes

I prob. Will upgrade to mythic cursed in next icon event

[torpid sparrow]

I mean i had a game where it was 3x vs + +

We had succesfully mislynched 2 villagers as wolves
But there is the problem. We dont have wolf seer and no way of knowing whos anarch and whos bh and whos rrv so we couldnt risk attacking and we couldnt just vote someone cuz of anarch

[short ether]

Seems right

[torpid sparrow]

Its a very fun role

[civic trellis]

Now yal wanna know what I'm excited to see?

Mythic lurker.

[torpid sparrow]

Oh yeah

3 adv for cursed

Optimal mythixx

[short ether]

Yes

[civic trellis]

I've got mythic gr so now gr will finally be a optimal choice for mythic

[lost shard]

Detective needs more advenced

[torpid sparrow]

Ffwan is garbage but it still counts because of it being there

[civic trellis]

Wwf ain't garbage. It just requires a different playstyle.

[formal glade]

It has Spy from testing, Maybe it will come After being reworked one day

[lost shard]

Need skill

[civic trellis]

Because wwf requires skill.

[lost shard]

Only after 3 nerf

[torpid sparrow]

All of my wwf games ended up in a L bcuz wolves converted me too early

[formal glade]

Yeah probably, but still

[civic trellis]

It's like people who said conju was a bad role.

[lost shard]

Their fault bro

Don't need to say it's trash

[torpid sparrow]

Meh

[civic trellis]

It isnt. It's just with medium, conjuror requires more skill than medium does.

[torpid sparrow]

Gr is more fun anyway

[bitter wadi]

my jww that i revealed to in zombie game tagged me

[torpid sparrow]

I love conj

[short ether]

You have to predict ww's actions

[lost shard]

is chaotic role

[torpid sparrow]

"Wait why does the 2nd vigi have 2 votes?"

-some random low level

[short ether]

[civic trellis]

Why did that avenger just die because they saved somebody last night:

[short ether]

It's the new role, vigi bread shooter

[lost shard]

I remember when my teammate was comfirmed good by an detective, he got fortune card, guess what, he decided to reveal himself as jww

[torpid sparrow]

Yipee

[short ether]

I mean, if he can change role

That means he is bad

Idk

[obtuse folio]

hey

what looks like the emote

of this calendar pls

[short ether]

Oh

I checked it

Idk how to send it from instagram

[obtuse folio]

screen shot x)

[short ether]

Ok

[obtuse folio]

thxxxxx

[short ether]

👍

[obtuse folio]

oh i found the publication 😭

thank youu

[dry bane]

Rinnegan?

[lost shard]

Boom

: OP
: balanced

[civic trellis]

Eh. Gentle needs a buff.

Not a major one, but still.

[lost shard]

Ok

[bitter wadi]

The beast hunter's trap killed 8 (sorcerer)

[lost shard]

It's really op

Me if I play it not properly: win

[short ether]

Personally as arsonist i kill at last second i dont know if people do that too but could use that to scribe

[flat blade]

So I gotta play it bad? Got it!

[hot trout]

Guys can anyone give me a summary of what free items we can get this New Year or New Year items using roses or quests?

[lost shard]

Why is Brodie dissapearing and coming back

It's jumpscare

[short ether]

He is the ritualist bro

He disappears and comes back

[hot trout]

I got the 2024 Dragon 🐲 hat but is there more to it?

[teal ravine]

I am the only one thinks that cww and wscribe are overshadowing wwt (we dont talk about shaman)