#Balancing Thread

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

glossy carbon
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You could add -1 Mov to skill 1 on 1H Hammer and it would be a small buff. In most cases you kill things in one hit, but it adds utility / opp damage if you don't.

dire locust
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Could make instead of Unblockable reduce Block

real scroll
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yeah but it would be single target debuff still

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Reduce block debuff on crash + opp payoff on bash could work

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but still if you debuff you usualy don't want to deal dmg

dire locust
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Depends on what type of debuff it is

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If you told me it did -100 armor after if hit the enemy for 150, yeah I would say that's pointless

real scroll
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debuff would be here mostly for opp scaling

dire locust
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This is my answer again, I'd rather delete Crush and not focus on Opportunism

real scroll
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There is potential cool stuff if you add blue effect behind bash target

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with debuff, so you bash into horde and than chose if you commit movement to stopm into them or you crash from safety

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making hammer kinda drilling into horde weapon could be cool

dire locust
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I feel like you can already get into position by killing stuff with Bash

real scroll
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yeah but only for stomp

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currently crush is pretty much unsupported

dire locust
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I mean it being a weird ranged attack

real scroll
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and supporting it with stun will always be weird as it can be resisted and if it's not resisted you can igonore the enemy so why kill it

dire locust
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idk I think you're focusing too much on the Opportunism like I said. The skill already does x0.85 the base damage on 2 targets with x1.3 Opportunism being an afterthought

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it's not the old Crush that was x0.6 dmg with x2 Opportunism and only Melee range (sucked more)

real scroll
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something like that could even support stomp

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dire locust
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It actually has enough damage to kill enemies in 1 hit without the Opp

real scroll
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Yeah but it's boring

dire locust
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boring and bad are not the same

real scroll
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it kinda is

dire locust
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then we should remove Shortbow as it's also simple by that logic

real scroll
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shortbow have some utility, volley is nice

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and crush feels like worse shred

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it has range but you cannot setup opp on range

dire locust
real scroll
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you can setup with stun which is uncessery as you already control enemy

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there is a lot of contradiction in hammers kit

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tight volley is ranged, enemies still attack and also you don't have opp on shortbow

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tight volley is to slow enemies when you powershot stuff that is close enough

dire locust
real scroll
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on first one I wouldn't even drop dmg tbh

dire locust
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I guess it could be useful against Tier 3 and 4 mainly

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especially if it's stackable to make a joke out of Twisted

real scroll
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non stackable for sure though, than you woul still need around 90% stun chance to guarantee bulky/twisted

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and you would also need enemy in front of twisted/bulky so it's not like 100% stun OP

dire locust
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Cannon Hammer AoE Stunner

real scroll
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OG Dwarf way

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cannon is also ranged dmg so It wouldn't be that good

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Flexible with stun chance would be cool with that setup thugh

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also scepter + offhand hammer could work
The only problem would be coding new debuff

dire locust
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if you manage to get the Medal perk that makes after 10 hits you next attack Undodgeable...

dire locust
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or you meant offhand as in secondary weapon?

leaden root
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I wonder if like a hammer throw could become skill 1 like we discussed earlier. That would make offhand hammer be a “Ranged” physical attack to help remove armor

real scroll
leaden root
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I’m just thinking of all the hammers I’ve seen depicted in fantasy media and they’re either doing like earth magic, knocking people out, breaking armor, or being thrown.

So there’s just a lot of confines for any hammer change. It still has to feel like a hammer.

But there is also other concerns: it can’t feel too much like the 2h hammer, and it shouldn’t compete with the other 1h weapons at what they do better. Plus it’s limited by game mechanics and placement, as the first melee weapon you get it should be on the simple side.

And the last spell doesn’t have any ways to move enemies from one tile to another. Which is a shame because that’s a niche the hammer would logically fill.

patent patrol
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Ground magic is covered by Gauntlet

real scroll
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I think we had the chance for thor hammer with mobility but ship sailed with zoomies sword

patent patrol
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Sledgehammer with skill range can be used to move

leaden root
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I guess thunder hammer does take on Thor and Warhammer vibes

real scroll
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With sledgehammer you yeet yourself, so with hammer you should yeet enemies or hammer

leaden root
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I do wish I could shuffle enemies around. Maybe in a dlc. Would let me line them up better for aoes and props

real scroll
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Honestly full into the breach push system would go hard but would probably couldn't be balanced

leaden root
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I’d love to see like “Collision” as a mechanic for the Orc dlc. Let me push into empty tiles or do like another 50% damage to the target in both squares

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Make me choose between using the move for efficient damage to AP or setting up a big AoE

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Heck, I know orbs been talked to death but if you were going to add movement tools to weapons orb could have movement tools to set up the big death Ray more efficiently. Change the AoE poison into like a 1x3 (3x1? One wide and three long) row that pushes things either left or right and alternates with the E key.

But that’s beyond the scope of the current project.

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PS: moving enemies onto different tiles would also make traps stronger. Just as a long term thought for future dlc.

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Speaking of traps; what if one of the ranged weapons had the ability to set traps?

Trapper Rangers are an archetype; it would be cool to see a weapon be able to set snares or explosive traps into empty tiles. With big rewards for being delayed attacks.

real scroll
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Forced movement and tile setup is pretty much staple in grid games so for sure we will get some in dlcs

crimson rock
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Deoda's mod has forced movement

sand verge
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The mind control on the wand, and knockback, right?

crimson rock
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yeah, although I didn't play around with them too much

dire locust
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I think I never used a Knockback skill he made except the Orb one

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because it was an actual Orb

leaden root
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What do you feel about removing the dodge cap and then giving a couple enemies undodgable attacks?

dire locust
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It would make Dodge pointless

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enemies like Rippers used to be Undodgeable, now instead they have very high accuracy

leaden root
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I mean, I’d argue dodge is pointless now. You need too much to overcome enemy accuracy and it still caps at 90 so it’s not even a reliable defense against a 0 accuracy enemy.

dire locust
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I never see going all in on Dodge to be a good idea, as you still have Boomers, Twisted & Bosses

dire locust
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also you have tools to reduce enemy accuracy too, not only buffing dodge to a ridiculous extent

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There's like only 1 perk designed for dodging (Adrenaline Rush), 1 that works as an afterthought (Berserk), 1 that increases dodge as a bonus (Nimbleness), and one that hates it (Spiky Counter)

leaden root
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I think dodge is objectively worse than resistance. I’d rather take a % reduced damage than take 0 damage sometiems and full damage others. It’s too easy to get screwed by RNG.

That there are any perks that encourage it, not to mention the longbow buff skill, annoys me.

dire locust
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It's the same in all games when it comes to dodge

leaden root
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I’m a fan of a ttrpg called Lancer, and they have something called reliable. It’s a keyword that allows an attack to inflict damage even on a miss (usually but not always minimum damage).

Even units that use a combination of a high Dodge rate and the invisibility buff suffer against reliable damage.

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So dodge doesn’t need to be a purely binary mechanic, it’s just that way for now.

crimson rock
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While on a general game mechanic basis, I agree

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Making dodge nonbinary would be a massive redesign on many levels

dire locust
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in Disgaea you can make a Ninja with everything focused on evasion, only to be countered by enemies having "nullify evasion" or "100% accuracy"

the game also has a mechanic that it rolls based on Hit chance, and instead of missing or doing full damage, it can Nick for 50% power

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It also has "always dodge" but under certain conditions, with "100% acc" countering it and then goes by normal dodge conditions

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This made turn in all games, TLS too, I'd rather go Tank mode than Dodge luck

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and it works

crimson rock
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in TLS, evade's primary advantage over block/res is that it can let you bypass certain debuff attacks, namely spitter poison and bulky stun

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But figuring out how to make that good enough to compete with block/res is hard no matter how you slice it

dire locust
leaden root
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I know we’re not likely to see any system reworks (for now) but what if reliability in this game was a fixed % of damage you always dealt regardless of hit or miss?

Then you could lower enemy accuracy and give them reliability stats. And player dodge would be better.

crimson rock
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That would make accuracy useless

dire locust
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I could see be a thing as a Tier 5 Hero perk, idk about enemies

crimson rock
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Since then you can take advantage of all the miss-based perks and STILL deal damage

leaden root
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Sounds like a fun play style lite game? But early game I’d rather deal 100% of the damage by having more accuracy than like 10% of the damage by having reliability and missing.

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So you’d curve from accuracy into reliability as the game progressed

dire locust
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so if you missed with a 600dmg attack vs a 56% dodge enemy, you'd do like 88 fixed damage

leaden root
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Sounds good to me.

One of the T5 perks gives reliability. If we’re not reworking it we can just dumpster it and replace it with something like that.

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Because, honestly, reliability could be removed from the game and I think it would only be a positive change. Fewer chances of rolling into it on level ups or items and would require a bunch of weaker perks to get reworked or buffed (perks which are weak because reliability isn’t good).

dire locust
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So I played a bit of the Alpha version (Prologue) and see stuff like this that I wouldn't mind seeing again

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patent patrol
dire locust
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Like Shortbow Tight Volley doing 50% dmg?

dire locust
broken parcel
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demolishing for a rebate.. shop stonks on the final night are through the roof

dire locust
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I would be able to sell workers as I don't need them from Day 1

dire locust
leaden root
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I have a spread sheet of all the weapons min and max base damage. Or almost all of them anyway.

Like you said It’s not really needed even on those weapons. You just take the roll.

If this game used a damage system like Path of Achra where the damage could be any number between 1 and your damage stat then sure - reliability would be really good. But rolling min damage isn’t that big of a deal when most important attacks are AoE or multihit as you mentioned.

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I don’t know if I’d even notice 50% reliability if it was like a T1 perk. There’s so many other ways to boost your damage that it’s just negligible

leaden root
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Since it got mentioned in another thread -

What if dodge was smoothed on the player side? Like when you have 80% dodge against an enemy with 30% accuracy you get hit mathematically more often every other hit instead of runs of good/bad dodge luck?

dire locust
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It doesn't make sense

patent patrol
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not sure what you're exactly suggesting? I think you're saying if your dodge is higher than the enemies accuracy, in this case ny 50%, which would normally give a 50% chance of the attack missing, it should actually be like 75% or something?

dire locust
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Unless you mean: "Everytime the hero fails to dodge, increase Dodge by 5%. When the Hero Dodges -15%. Can't go below the starting value"

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the funny Fear of Death Critical Master medal perk but for Dodge

leaden root
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So, humans are really bad at %s. They feel wrong to us. Strategy games have been smoothing %s for as long as they’ve been around to better match our expectations when we see % chances.

There are different ways to smooth the numbers to match those expectations. As Ilya said you could increase the dodge chance whenever a dodge fails to prevent a string of bad luck from being as punishing. Fire Emblem used a system for a while called true hit. They basically rolled two attacks for every attack. Over 60% chance to hit the attack was a hit if either attack hit. Under that number the attack was a miss unless both attacks hit.

Dota uses this for critical hits. Every attack that isn’t a critical makes the next attack more likely to crit until it happens. Then it resets. This prevents strings of good or bad luck from altering the whole course of a match.

crimson rock
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pity rolls on dodge would make it even worse

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You only need 1 boulder to hit to make all your dodge investment to be useless

leaden root
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One boulder messes up any unit though.

crimson rock
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except someone with immunity or max dodge

leaden root
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Would not risk getting bouldered with dodge. It’s not hard to stay out of boulder range.

crimson rock
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....do you need me to repeat what I already said about dodge?

crimson rock
leaden root
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Yeah, but the difference between “oh cool I dodged a stun” and “oh I have to buy a new hero because I got bouldered” is steep.

Idc if my unit has 95% dodge I’m not taking the 5% chance of them dying. It’s not hard to space Bulky boulder throws.

crimson rock
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yes. That's what I'm saying.

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That's why pity dodges would make this even worse than the current system

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The complexity and number of attacks in TLS make it very unlikely that you will be able to deliberately line up your guaranteed dodges with boulder attacks

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and if attacks will eventually just hit no matter what, that's worse than 5%

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Using 2RN or 3RN like fire emblem does will also just encourage leaving dodge at 0, since small investments become even more useless.

leaden root
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I mean, I understand what you’re saying but isn’t it worthless right now?

Enemies have enough accuracy that a little bit of dodge does nothing. Even If you have a ton of it you can get a run of bad luck and die. The only builds that want to get attacked are spikey counter builds who can’t build dodge.

crimson rock
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Not completely worthless, but yeah it's pretty bad

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This is a matter of the cure being worse than the disease

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adrenaline rush is still usable because you are intended to still build some bulk

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It relies on dodge as a numbers game rather than individual hits

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same with berserk

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You don't need to convince me that dodge is bad

leaden root
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Idk, I feel like being assured an occasional dodge is better than taking dodge on an item or level up and never dodging at all.

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Ultimately they could remove dodge and reliability and I wouldn’t be upset. I’d actually prefer it since I’d not have wasted level up options. But I’m currently just throwing ideas at the wall and seeing what sticks.

I’m not married to this being the solution.

blissful marten
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Would transfer be significantly worse if you doubled the effects but made it single use?

leaden root
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Probably? Being able to divide the AP and damage buff up is always going to provide you with more utility than not being able to do so - all other factors being equal.

If transfer was like, 1 AP once per turn to give another hero 2 AP then it would be stupid because the optimal play would be to have your heroes trade transfers in order to go positive on AP and damage buffs.

patent patrol
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Dodge is very good for the boulder throw from bulkies, also if getting stunned once is ending a heroes life then you're playing weird and you need to be way more careful about the boulder throws

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You can also debuff enemy accuracy to make dodging more consistent, you still have to be wary of undodgeble attacks, but it makes dodging without dodge investment pretty easy

real scroll
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Does dodge and -acc stack above 100%?

patent patrol
# real scroll Does dodge and -acc stack above 100%?

No, dodge calculated at the moment of attacking is capped at 95%, so if you have a hero with -100 accuracy will always have a 5% chance to hit an enemy, and even if you have 95% dodge and debuff an enemy to -100% accuracy they will have a 5% chance to hit you

real scroll
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So the only way to guarantee 95% is also getting minus accuracy

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If you have 100 dodge, and enemy has 10 accuracy it's chance to hit you is 85, correct? The 5 from going over cap is gone?

patent patrol
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You can't have 100 dodge, your dodge stat is capped at 95, if you have 95 dodge and you use like an armour skill that buffs your dodge it will do nothing
And yes, if you have 95 dodge and the enemy has 10 accuracy the effective dodge chance becomes 85, so a 15% chance to hit

real scroll
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So perk that would turn dodge chance above cap into -acc on attacking enemy could net you fine buffer making dodge tank viable

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You still roll 95 but it's much better than 85

patent patrol
patent patrol
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Also a thing worth noting, dodge can go above the 95% cap in the middle of a calculation as a result of inaccuracy multipliers or ranged damage dodge multipliers, so if you have 80% dodge, being attacked by an enemy with 20% accuracy but at a range where the inaccuracy multiplier is x1.5, it'll be 80 x 1.5 = 120
120 - 20 = 100 then brought to the cap of 95%
So dodge is particularly good at dodging ranged attacks like hunters and archers

real scroll
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Yeah but would changing cap not change base calculation of 95 acc

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Same stuff and would kinda enable dodge build to exist

dire locust
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It's just Inaccuracy doesn't exist for enemies

crimson rock
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Applying inaccuracy to enemies using traps would be interesting

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Mud Trap - Applies Inaccuracy 1.5x to enemies while they stand on the trap. 3 charges.

patent patrol
dire locust
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It doesn't

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I've had a dev answer this like 2 years ago

patent patrol
patent patrol
dire locust
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They instead had the Archer deal a hidden, secondary attack that dealt 70% of the damage at 4-5 tiles, because of how Inaccuracy works in TLS Prologue

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Inaccuracy in Prologue decreased the damage you dealt like Resistance

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so Yeah an Inaccurate 40% Power shot at Tile 3 and beyond => Power shot deals -40% damage
It's base is Inaccurate -20% 2 tiles

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It makes sense if you think how it used to work, and was just left there until it was forgotten it even existed

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so Ranged damage for enemies is just an attack that doesn't have the positive effects of "Ignore 50% Resistance" or "Armor Shredding"

real scroll
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So dodge is even worse got it

patent patrol
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Dodge is just another one of those stats where you're going to get most of it from the base stats and random stats on gear, especially base stats on armour, and it's fine but nothing special and rarely a stat you need to pay attention to or that you get any benefit from focusing on it, except from adrenaline rush which you can take if you happen to have high dodge, or spiky counter and war shield perk, which both need low dodge

real scroll
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Such is way of defensive stat

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Unless you can convert it to dmg it's afterthought

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But it's funny we have a way to convert dodge into dmg and negative dodge into dmg but block and resistance are stuck

crimson rock
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alright, this is probably late but

dire locust
crimson rock
dire locust
crimson rock
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oops

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there we go

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thank you

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overall, I increased the aoe potential of several weapons

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I gave crossbow contagion

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and orb has been massively altered to be crazier than hand crossbow

dire locust
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I won't comment, but some like +1 use in Impaling Bolt seem too strong

crimson rock
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In terms of pure kills/turn yes, but I did find that the orthogonal limitation made it rare to actually get full use out of certain weapons

real scroll
dire locust
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It's because Resistance and Block are more binary

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You have 100 block = you take -100 damage

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you have 100% Resist = you take -100% damage

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same if you do with any numbers

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but with Dodge unless you ever had 100% (which we don't) it's either you take full damage or not at chance

real scroll
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Yeah but letting us ad like 20% of block to base weapon dmg or something wouldn't break the balance

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and it would increase fun from stacking block big

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It just fun when you stack one stupid number big and game at least tries to support you in your terrible decision

leaden root
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I mean, spikey counter converts defensive stats into offense. And there’s the warshield that gains % damage for taking hits.

dire locust
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and it's also Perk damage, which is higher on spectrum on damage multipliers

broken parcel
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defense stats are great besides dodge

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you can get them in good quantity without a lot of investment and still deal overkill dmg

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and at that point why not be tanky to free up your positioning power

real scroll
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Yeah but having some offensive payoff for block or resistance like you have for dodge would be cool

patent patrol
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(health has body builder/sanguine fuel if you want to think of health as a defensive stat, also berserk still works if you dodge, so it's a good perk if you have any investment in defensive stats regardless of what the defensive stats are)

dire locust
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There are lots of ways to gain Resistance, especially with Dwarves dlc

glossy carbon
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You don't need much dodge for basic mobs to miss you almost all the time on early nights. Dodge is potentially better than resistance early on in a run. Resistance is the best defence later nights (imo). Block is always decent, especially if you are getting most of it from sources other than level ups. of course, having a lot of health and positioning appropriately are the best defence.

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People maybe build heroes as 'all' damage and 80 health and then wonder why they die.

patent patrol
dire locust
dire locust
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So it's possible by the end to get from 250 to 350 base damage on Counter with Resistance

glossy carbon
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Spiky counter can already do 1000+ damage after all the multipliers are added.

broken parcel
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last thing it needs is more dmg

glossy carbon
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the dwarfs can be really op. I've no idea why some people keep saying they are bad and dilute the hero power.

image.png
broken parcel
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dwarves are better in general by a good margin

dire locust
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or something weird like "Active Counter"
Hero unleashes a wave of light to punish the unholy abominations using the stored up energy from being hit.
Deals 30 + Resistance% x X dmg in a 5 tile radius around the user. X starting at 2 after 5 hits, increasing by 1 every 5 hits, max amount of multiplier at 5

glossy carbon
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Toss me! is better than Leap as well (at least for the way I play)

dire locust
leaden root
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Toss me can really hurt if you’re using walls. Sometimes you can’t get back to safety and get eaten by enemies.

patent patrol
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both of you. Stop talking about "other players" like they are clueless fools waiting for your enlightened thoughts to help them play competently, you're both sounding really patronising right now

leaden root
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I think dwarves get better as you unlock more of the games upgrades. More HP, better heroes, etc.

I didn’t find the dwarven weapons hard to understand but it took me a while to appreciate their perk tree

dire locust
glossy carbon
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I suppose it would be 'fairer' if there was a good tier 2 perk for dodge [sorry if this has already been suggested and I missed it]. Some kind of weaker version of adrenaline rush. For example, +1 bonus ap next turn for every 3 successful dodges (and the count keeps track across turns like other perks, so you might only need one dodge in a particular turn to get the bonus) . Or it could just give +1 ap for your next turn if you dodge, but only +1 ap max (not multiple like adrenaline rush).

real scroll
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ballerina, every dodge give you 1 movement

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You can either give dodge better payoff or make dodge safer with cap manipulation

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Like maybe rolling dodge 2nd time after fail to halve the dmg received

leaden root
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I think you could probably up the numbers on items and level ups for dodge. Enemies having an accuracy stat really hurts minor levels of dodge a lot. So if every item/level up of dodge was worth more it would be at least a little more reliable

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I still wouldn’t like dodge as a stat, but I’d consider adrenaline rush less of a meme.

real scroll
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Yeah but if you don't focus on dodge it's nice bonus dodgeing

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but having mediocre payoff for fully dodge build still sucks

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or getting ripped on 95% dodge hero

leaden root
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Yeah, but if it cost less to reach 95 dodge by a significant amount then the payoff being mediocre is fine.

patent patrol
leaden root
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You’d be able to invest more into defensive and offensive stats so you could take a hit or two if your dodge failed or better use your AP from adrenaline rush

real scroll
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Butterfly vs Bee - each successful dodge gives you bonus dmg but lowers your dodge chance, on getting hit reset

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Or go fully Muhammad Ali and make it each successful dodge boost your next punch

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dodge 20 times and punch boss for 4k dmg

leaden root
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Not a fan. Too easy for it to do nothing when you dodge 3 and get hit on the 4th attack.

Id love a punch back skill though. On adjacent dodge punch the target - combos with crippling punch

real scroll
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momentum but for dodge

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cash your dodging dmg on next hit

broken parcel
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building up stacks of deck that guy in the face sounds fun

leaden root
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Every dodge boosts your punch damage by x% for rest of night/rest of turn

glossy carbon
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a boost for the rest of the night would at least be fun

patent patrol
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ooh! what if you got a boost to Healing Received based on how many times you have dodged, so if you do get hit you can then really easily heal any damage they took? it would make poisonous/toxic leech work as a great combo with dodge

leaden root
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There’s so few ways to heal though. Vampire, Toxic Leech, and health potions are about it.

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Like - mid night

patent patrol
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But like you could use a single health pot to heal after one failed dodge and bring all your health back

glossy carbon
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if any minor boosts last the whole night (same as berserk + crit master) they can add up to a lot and could make it worth it.

patent patrol
leaden root
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Does healing received also boost nightly HP regen?

patent patrol
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I believe it does? I've never paid much attention to it tbh

leaden root
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Because that would also help dodge. I do build a temple usually but it’s for boosting my blood mage to 1000 HP and healing minor wounds.

glossy carbon
leaden root
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Fair. I didn’t know Because normally if I take HP damage it’s because I screwed up.

patent patrol
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then yeah, there should be an early perk that gives healing received based on number of attacks dodged

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totally remove the current "defences" perk tree and replace it with a perk tree that's about making heroes tankier, include that perk at tier 1 or 2

leaden root
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I wouldn’t mind a “mana growth” style perk for dodge. Just here’s some flat dodge and more dodge every level.

iron compass
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Dodge is gonna be better with consistency for what people were talking about, how about:
Matrix Perk = Every 3 success dodges you can nullify the next source of damage that hit you.

leaden root
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Not a bad perk idea either. Could even broaden it to “every three times you are attacked negate the next time you take damage” to make it work for Spikey Counter too

patent patrol
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What do you mean by "can"? Like would it ask you to confirm "would you like to nullify this hit?" For every hit every turn until you used it? Because if it's just the first time you take damage then you could get hit by 2 enemies in one turn, a little enemy that would have dealt you 1 damage, and then a scary enemy that kills you in one hit, and so it would normally just get wasted on weak enemies too often

iron compass
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I mean it automatic does

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sorry english not first language.
Matrix Perk = Every 3 success dodges you nullify the next source of damage that hit you.

sand verge
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also, "slightly increase damage" is too vague, is that +10% damage? +25%? +35%?

crimson rock
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A changed a lot of specific numbers to be vague because that's something for the testers and devs to decide on

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And I said more vanilla

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Are you talking about Druid staff?

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Entangle is altered to target dodgy enemies, while Acid Pool becomes better at actually hurting things

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instead of being halfsies on both

sand verge
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everything is ultimately "for the testers and devs to decide on", working with concrete numbers makes things much clearer and less confusing

sand verge
crimson rock
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alright, sure

sand verge
#

I'm not gonna comment on the rest because that's subjective, but that's a clear nerf to an already terrible ability, which is just wtf

leaden root
# sand verge everything is ultimately "for the testers and devs to decide on", working with c...

It depends on the dev team?

I’ve heard before in other places that the best way to provide feedback is to talk about what feels wrong rather than provide specifics as to how to fix it.

That doesn’t mean concrete ideas aren’t welcome here specifically. Just that the devs have their own process for changing things and that what they (ideally) care about most is player engagement and enjoyment.

crimson rock
#

I'm still thinking about reverting some things like the greataxe swing and -3 move

sand verge
#

I’ve heard before in other places that the best way to provide feedback is to talk about what feels wrong rather than provide specifics as to how to fix it.
oh, that's interesting, from my own experience it's much better to be detailed. But i guess that makes sense, if you do not trust players to know what they're talking about it's probably better to have them talk in vibes not facts

crimson rock
#

But reducing dodge and armor is really not a combo that makes sense to me. What do you suggest?

sand verge
#

resistance

#

or you could make it ONLY a dodge debuff, but also make it cost 0 ap for example

crimson rock
#

0ap cost but has mana cost? That's an intriguing prospect...

sand verge
#

yeah, that's what i have in mine

image.png
leaden root
#

Yeah, it depends on the team. Changing something in a complex game can have ramifications that need testing, and being flooded with player ideas can stifle the devs own creativity. However, sometimes the answer is fairly obvious or the players could have a brilliant idea that you’d never come up with.

I don’t think any complex game will ever be perfectly balanced. But ideally things should fulfill the fantasy the devs intend.

Which is why the survey was mostly about vibes. At least imo.

crimson rock
#

Yeah I don't want to be too exact about everything and imply the devs have to do exactly what I say

leaden root
#

If we are going to talk specifics, I like the idea of the great axe ability 1 having a similar attack pattern to the Hammers stun. It would reward you more for diving into the middle of enemies which is something I love about super spin.

#

Because right now it usually feels like a 2AP version of the 1h axe swing

crimson rock
#

Great Axe's issue is that leap is not self sufficient for super spin

#

you need to poke a hole in a ball of enemies before leap is even possible

leaden root
#

I usually pair it with power staff or cannon, yeah. Something to get me in the middle

glossy carbon
#

I think they've said they are looking at tweaking numbers slightly in terms of balance, but welcome other ideas as being potentially good for mods rather than core game.
#1318501117960912926 message

sand verge
crimson rock
#

I think vibes is good if you try to mix ideas from different people together

#

At best, exact numbers are tweaked within the system of one suggestion, but vibes can still possibly translate when merging different suggestions

sand verge
#

and some other changes i forgot

#

but we obviously shouldn't be expecting total reworks everywhere

glossy carbon
#

That is fair,. In a lot of cases, you can tweak the mana cost, damage, or uses of the existing skills. without completely redesigning every skill and item.

There are suggestions that could make the game better for everyone, and others that might make it better for 5% and make it worse for 95%.

leaden root
#

Even when it’s 1p vs AI it’s going to be hard to cater to people starting the game for the first time and folks with all unlocks running Apoc 4

#

I know apoc 5 is controversial, but we’re also supposed to get an apoc rework. So I’d been holding off on scaling them

sand verge
leaden root
#

I have concerns with many weapons but I think they’re all mostly fun. Even longbow the 3x3 stun feels good to use.

Orb feels bad though. And it’s one of the few weapons that have a stat debuff associated with it which is hilarious. Like it would be too good if it didn’t reduce your max HP

sand verge
#

my only regret is that it likely means scepter won't get its momentum propagation, which is a shame as that would make the weapon so much more fun than that awkward stun

crimson rock
#

Orb and Assassinate need to be completely rewritten, that's what I'm most sure of

sand verge
#

Even longbow the 3x3 stun feels good to use.
i strongly disagree on that, no longbow ability feels good

crimson rock
#

but what new forms they should get is up in the air

#

I'm feeling kinda good about Breach Round, but I specifically went for the craziest thing ever for orb

glossy carbon
#

I'm using three orbs on Glintfein right now and they are very good, but I admit there are some negatives and other weapons are 'better'. [I have one mana crystal which helps]. It could do with an extra skill though. I've suggested 'Vanish' before.

[Orb - Infect having low damage on non-isolated is actually ok as you can weaken certain enemies instead of killing. You one shot most isolated targets. The poison skill is really good. Death ray is a lot of fun and kills a decent chunk of mobs but is a bit mana costly...]

sand verge
crimson rock
#

sniper shot? That's fair. I think artic blast makes longbow as a whole less in need of change, but if someone compeltely altered sniper shot I would be ok with leaving assassinate alone

#

or did you mean the skill 1 of rifle

#

That one is also fair

sand verge
#

yeah, meant skill 1

#

i reworked snipe shot to thunder snipe, with propagation

#

i even tried it in-game, it was much more fun

crimson rock
#

propagation hmm

#

I need to stew on that

sand verge
#

but yeah, even snipe shot is worse than assassinate as it ends up being way more costly

dire locust
leaden root
#

Ah, yeah. That one

dire locust
#

The extra move for enemies is an actual difficulty increase compared to something like Mist Censers, which is rng dependent

dire locust
#

Would this change for Spear be acceptable?

crimson rock
#

Was the damage increased?

dire locust
#

I think I increased the damage and had Secondary tiles do 70% of that

#

so it's like 120% and 85%?

crimson rock
#

hmm. Can't say I'm a fan

dire locust
#

me neither, as I would prefer it to be 1 target 3 range instead

#

at 1 ap price

leaden root
#

I wouldn’t mind reduced damage on the spear skills 1 to secondary targets if it was 1AP

real scroll
#

Honestly I think longbow could use getting vision somehow

patent patrol
#

that would make watchtowers even more useless lol

real scroll
#

As long as meta will be corpses longbow will kinda suck as weapon designed to kill as far as possible

patent patrol
#

cause the only reason people use watchtowers is to give longbows in the middle of the haven vision

real scroll
#

yeah but I would trade a little relevancy on single weapon for watchowers

patent patrol
#

I would like to see watchtowers and stone walls made more relevant lol, mostly by nerfing ballista lol

patent patrol
#

I think Powerstaff stunning entrance should lose Vision

real scroll
#

Standard longbow "trope" in games is static powerful snipes

leaden root
#

Longbow and Rifle have problems coexisting in that space tho.

real scroll
#

Longbow should have more range though

#

So rifle compete with crossbow lol

#

for strater I would make snipe shot not cost mana

#

and made watchout into real skill lol

patent patrol
#

One By One needs to be made a relevant perk, and it needs to be easier to create isolated targets, then Longbow would start to be more relevant
Longbow could be made relevent by changes to things around the weapon rather than only to the weapon itself

real scroll
#

Problem is cannon got best isolated target making pattern AoE pretty much

patent patrol
real scroll
#

Mark but for isolation?

patent patrol
real scroll
#

But the problem is if you spreads enemies more you nerf propagation which is not doing hot rn also

patent patrol
#

there is a suggestion that helps both propagation and isolation!

real scroll
#

This could work but would probably have to tweak propagation numbers

patent patrol
#

or have it be a new perk! that maybe comes with some -bounces or -prop damage

real scroll
#

Maybe Long Shot could get wound apply on hit

#

I mean you can remake Quan vs Qual into being usable

patent patrol
patent patrol
real scroll
#

Not to much support for opportunism but niche thing so you can slow boomers and stuff from other side

leaden root
#

So, the biggest issue I see standing in the way of ranged weapons getting what they need is keeping them feeling like different and unique weapons.

Like you said Red, the fantasy of using a longbow is doing cool long shot stuff. That’s also the fantasy of the rifle in fantasy. So they’re very close to each other. How do you make them feel unique from each other?

Heck they are practically the same weapon already. Main damage move, snipe move, and slow/stun move. The only difference is that longbows have a dead skill in Watch out and rifles have two different main attacks.

#

That doesn’t mean they perform the same, mind you. They just are already very similar to each other template wise.

patent patrol
real scroll
#

I think rifle in game is based on Muzzleloaders

#

those vere not sharpshoot weapons for sure

#

Deadly, not accurate, loud
Clawers won't route probably but suppresive fire is pretty much most "rifle warfare" skill you can get

leaden root
#

To an extent you’re correct. Rifles refer to the rifling of the barrel. Most popular movie renditions if muzzle loaders show the smoothbores used for war, not the muzzle loader rifles which did exist. They just took too long to reload in combat and were mainly used for hunting.

#

And we’re expensive to purchase and maintain

#

Also, devs, if you’re listening I would like a blunderbus in an upcoming DLC. Thank you.

patent patrol
#

anyway, very off topic lol

real scroll
#

Anyway, making them deal insane dmg but less accurate and provide better utility would carve them a good spot

#

Longbow would be long range accurate attrition weapon

#

And apart from Ass rifles are fine I feel

leaden root
#

I’d personally love the short bow to get like a Green Arrow treatment with a bunch of wacky arrows while Longbow gets the practical fantasy archer treatment.

patent patrol
real scroll
real scroll
leaden root
#

What if watch out got turned into some kind of self-overwatch?

Like you automatically shoot any enemy that ends its move within 2-3 tiles of you but not any enemy that ends its move next to you.

real scroll
#

So dmg would be cannon > rifles > crossbows > longbows

#

Maybe they could change powershot on shortbow into automatic crit

#

Give it a way to scale

patent patrol
#

having different skills with different inherent crit chance is something I wish the devs had introduced and worked on as the game got made, I don't know if it's something they would want to add so late in the games life

real scroll
#

Yeah it would help make things feel different

#

Especially if we get another type of bow with elves

leaden root
#

What if some attacks had higher or lower critical power? They can give attacks higher opportunism/isolation multipliers after all.

patent patrol
#

yeah, again, a thing I wish the devs had introduced earlier, but I can't imagine it'll be something they would want to introduce so late? Definitely something modders can play with

real scroll
#

They can introduce it with DLC and then retrofit it into base game

patent patrol
#

maybe, the devs have made it clear they don't want to give old weapons perks despite adding weapon perks in the DLC

leaden root
#

Imagine if assassinate had like a bonus 100% critical boost.

#

It would still miss, but the damage if it hit!

patent patrol
#

but yeah, they could add variant crit chance/power on skills to new DLC weapons

broken parcel
#

a magic bow would be cool

dire locust
#

The better outcome would be for traps to actually become relevant, and maybe a button for quick selecting Catapults

patent patrol
dire locust
#

"Ranged Defenses have -3 range"
"Defenses deal -25% Damage"
"Upgrades for defenses are locked"

glossy carbon
#

They could start by halving the repair cost of traps...

image.png
broken parcel
#

I actually went broke repairing traps

dire locust
#

How much is a single repair?

#

for 1/2 and 0/2

glossy carbon
#

on the damage trap, it is 4 mat / 8 mat/ Initial cost to build is 16.

dire locust
#

So yeah they are 50% of the original price based on how much is missing

#

I think it's similar to repair the walls

glossy carbon
#

I think well placed damage traps are potentially more effective than spending the materials to upgrade to mounted ballista - but it's hard to tell really.

I'm fairly sure the two trap Omens I took are slightly overpriced.

(1 slot for 33% chance to not use a charge, but it's hard to tell if this works. 50% chance would be nice.

2 slot for the 4 secondary effect tiles. Maybe this should only be 1 slot.)

broken parcel
#

it should just add 1 propagate to the attack

#

50% dmg

crimson rock
#

Would One By One work if it was like Carnage, and triggered whenever you only hit 1 enemy per attack?

dire locust
#

Probably be better than what it currently is.
Is the Physical damage kills for an extra 2% even worth trying for it currently?

#

Mostly Ranged weapons, specifically Longbow support, is able to make use of the perk

crimson rock
#

The physical boost is worth it when the main horde hasn't reached haven yet or you have a massive aoe that pings multiple isolated

#

The change I'm making would make it firmly only 1 boost per action, so the physical bonus would have more merit

#

and makes multihit far less ridiculous

patent patrol
#

so nothing to do with isolation? just a damage boost after killing an enemy with an attack that only attacks 1 enemy?

crimson rock
#

yeah

spark ruin
#

I wish there could be a building that can 1 shot every normal creep in the map for $$$$ or Scrap

leaden root
#

Biggest Ballista.

dire locust
#

!feedback-enemies Every time a hero dies in your run, make an Elite enemy appear with that hero's name next Night
Just because I found this buried

solid gladeBOT
#

Please use the #✍│tls-feedback channel to report feedback

dire locust
#

also long time no see Carl

dire locust
#

I thought about it again, and Hand Crossbow itself could probably stay as is with the x2 Multihit (maybe remove Armor Pierce), but Multihit in general might need a rebalance, as investing into the stat makes it the best case scenario when compared to doing Overkill with BOOM! or Propagation's more randomized killing potential.
It's more so the weapons that are less desirable should get buffs or reworked (increase the bottom line instead of lowering the ceiling)

Some perks do need to be tweaked too as Back Protection used to be ok back in the day mostly cause you didn't really have good options at Tier 1, and should be part of Misc tree.

A whole new perk tree instead of Defense could maybe focus on the Potions/Consumable items instead would've been way better:
Potion Throw t1,
Overload t2,
"Lower mana costs for Scrolls by -1" t3
"Lock 2 slots to gain +1/2 uses (like Specialist-ish, but would kinda force you to get one of the previous perks) t4
"Gain stats based on how many consumables you've equipped /their level" t5

crimson rock
#

How do you rebalance the multihit stat?

#

There's not much to change in the levelups
Initiator wouldn't be worth it at +1
Which leaves adding negative stats to all the multihit gear

dire locust
#

Each Multihit deals -10% damage from the previous hit (similar to Propagation) would be one idea, making mass multihit barely worth it by the end, but that would just make something like Wand & Spear mh pretty awful to use

patent patrol
#

the weapon variants, especially on hand crossbow, should probably stop having +multi hit, but weapon variants in general are unbalanced

dire locust
#

Yeah I wouldn't really want to touch the "very good" weapon variants like +AP, +Critical or +Multihit, but they could have a negative stat attached to them

#

some like Spear +20 to 40 Armor is a dumpster fire for example when compared to Spear +1/2 AP
I wouldn't mind this variant if the stats were like +30 to +90 at level V

sand verge
dire locust
#

I meant like removing those variants entirely, as they already cost more than normal variants (in gold)

sand verge
#

Wayy too big of an rng power swing, but i guess that's part of the game. Still, hxb could just get uses per turn reduction and be fine

#

Multihit on OTHER weapons isn't broken at all, it's hxb specifically

dire locust
#

I guess making it 3 uses per turn would be a start

sand verge
#

I actually think magic missiles could use a small buff with -1 mana cost

crimson rock
#

That's a substantial buff, but perhaps warranted

#

I kinda use wands expressly to burn mana, so that says something about the weapon balance

dire locust
#

I mean Magic Missilies already had their damage nerfed to 85%

#

so it would make sense if they turned 80% at 3 mana maybe

sand verge
#

I don't think that nerf was nescessary in the first place tbh

#

It was critical master that needed a nerf, not the skill itself

sand verge
crimson rock
#

You could rebalance crit master a great deal by making it attacks that crit instead of straight crits. Makes single target much more competitive

sand verge
#

Something like that, yeah

real scroll
#

You could maybe increase cost of multi hit builds introducing secondary investments

#

Adding progressive inaccuracy to all next hits

#

So you spray and pray or invest in accuracy

dire locust
#

On normal multihit (like pure Crit) it would matter, but something ridiculous like the Sadist one that stuns all enemies not so much

real scroll
#

Yeah but that is more off sadist problem

sand verge
real scroll
#

True they are all capped by use limits

#

But apart from Armageddon all of this skills are one of the best in the game as multi hit is only thing that let's you reliable increase number of targets

#

Like imagine you can pick up 5% BOOM on levelup

sand verge
#

Skewer and magic missiles are definitely not the best in this, magic missiles with +2 multihits is 6 targets, a simple aoe like triple skewer is up to 9 targets with increased damage and like +1 mana cost

#

sure you get much more control but it's not like they have incomprehensive base value and are a mile above of everything
I for one consider triple skewer far above skewer

patent patrol
#

Skewer is helped by having one of the highest base damage on the skill in the game and being undodgeable, and being cheap, and working so well on blood mages

crimson rock
#

Skewer is very good, but has very firm limitations in hit count and range.
Magic missile has been heavily nerfed on the damage side, so on most harder difficulty struggles to kill half as many as its total hits.

patent patrol
#

but it's limited to 1 use per turn

#

Magic missiles is so Mana hungry for what it does

crimson rock
#

poison knives is actually really mid by itself. Its base damage is pretty low so it can actually NOT kill stuff even with bodybuilder, and doesn't benefit from oppo on the first hit

#

I am curious how old blaze would fair in the current or next update

#

stacking multihit AND prop is pretty hard

real scroll
#

Yeah you need to invest into skewer or poison dagger and have clear plan

#

If limiting uses on hxb it would have to go to 3?

#

I feel like 4 wouldn't change much

sand verge
#

4 is already the current use limit

crimson rock
#

3 uses is a good change, the question is what else

sand verge
#

I think it needs to go down to 2, with slow death and blaze getting other uses back

real scroll
#

I thought about droping mana from blaze tbh

crimson rock
#

I do think adding a minimum range would make it a bit less braindead

sand verge
#

This is how I'd rework it, but can easily come up with something more conservative

image.png
real scroll
#

Or reverse vision, so you can only target first row

crimson rock
#

reverse vision....there's an idea

#

but getting vision isn't overly hard

real scroll
#

Yeah but than there is perk cost

crimson rock
#

If the devs coded a reverse vision I'd think about it

real scroll
#

And even with third eye you would have to do other stuff than spamming 1st skill

#

Yeah coding it would probably be terrible task

sand verge
#

this is a conservative version with only stat and value changes, something like this should balance it, but i really don't think quickshot should be skill 1 because of the offhand problem

image.png
crimson rock
#

yeaaa it's SO good as an offhand

#

But slow death or some sort of poison as an offhand hmm

#

I guess it becomes an easier to use version of offhand gauntlet

sand verge
#

yeah, nerfed slow death (or my reworked poison arrow) should be the offhand

real scroll
#

Hmm treats all targets as no vision could be workable

broken parcel
real scroll
#

Also let's say no crit, no opportunism, what is best hxb build than

sand verge
broken parcel
#

remove multi hit from level ups

#

problem solved

patent patrol
#

ew no

sand verge
#

ew no indeed

real scroll
#

Than you kill all other mh skills

crimson rock
broken parcel
#

all the other mh skills have mh variants, mh is still on items

#

it would be fine

crimson rock
#

or get one of those res red crystals

patent patrol
#

remove multi hit from (level 1) variants. If it can't show up as a rarity affix roll until level 3, why should it be allowed to appear on variants?

#

(also magic hat and ravens queens feathers)

crimson rock
#

I haven't touched armor rebalancing, largely because I can't remember all of them

broken parcel
#

poison daggers is op, armageddon is op, the spear one is op

#

if you nerd hxb everyone just uses those

real scroll
#

Yeah but lower uses

crimson rock
#

armageddon is NOT op haha

real scroll
#

4x7 targets is a lot

sand verge
crimson rock
#

I had to arrange everything to get armageddon running with kills

broken parcel
#

everyone who knows how to play uses those*

patent patrol
#

Poison daggers is good on blood mages that roll +multi hit and crit trees
Spear Flurry of strikes is really strong but limited to 1 use so the more multi hit you have the more you want to use one of the others
Magic Missiles is very very mana hungry and doesn't deal enough damage to consistently be worth spending it

#

Armageddon is good for generating heat so you can start exploding. if it kills anything that's a bonus

sand verge
# real scroll 4x7 targets is a lot

remove critical master from the equation and armageddon becomes meh due to its low base damage
it has an awkward pattern, and costs 3 whole ap

crimson rock
#

if armageddon had less minimum range

#

maybe I'd use it a bit earlier for softening enemies up

real scroll
#

What would be most optimal BOOM numer of targets on 1AP

#

Without multihit

broken parcel
#

cannon

#

8 targets

crimson rock
#

wasn't it axe?

patent patrol
real scroll
#

Axe is also 8

broken parcel
#

axe is 8 for 1 ap?

crimson rock
#

isn't it 7?

broken parcel
#

it’s 7 for 2 ap

crimson rock
#

the hero is standing in one of those spots

patent patrol
# broken parcel axe is 8 for 1 ap?

Axe is 7 additional, 11 total targets with boom, 3 of the actual attack, 3 in front, 2 behind (cause the hero is in the way) 1 on each side

broken parcel
#

oh i misunderstood

#

then cannon is uhhhh, 12 boom procs

patent patrol
#

Gauntlet you can attack at range 2, giving you the 8th target, and the extra target from the fact that the attack hits 4 enemies

#

(I think the actual most might be Axe Boomerang? but then you have to consider mana)

broken parcel
#

cannon can get up to 16 or 17 boom procs with 13 dmged

#

but that’s 2 ap

real scroll
#

And to achieve that you need perk that might not roll, get perfect enemy pattern and a lot of dmg

patent patrol
# broken parcel then cannon is uhhhh, 12 boom procs

from the perk, yeah, so an AP cost is harder to figure out, and that requires you to be surrounded by 8 enemies, and if using rocket jump the main damage of the rocket jump needs to not kill any of the enemies so they can die to the explosion

real scroll
#

Yeah comparing it to just choosing 7 enemies it's kinda dog

broken parcel
#

I was just answering the question

broken parcel
patent patrol
#

yeah, cannon is the best weapon to abuse boom?

#

like, when comparing multi hit to boom, axe is the most simple weapon to get a lot from boom, cannon is optimal

broken parcel
#

axe certainly has more charges at 1 ap thats for sure

patent patrol
real scroll
broken parcel
#

the boom cannon build actually wants lvl 1 cannons anyways

patent patrol
#

huh, I guess it does

#

cuase the perk doesn't scale

broken parcel
#

and they are very probable

patent patrol
#

and you don't want rocket jump to deal direct damage

broken parcel
#

you just want the free crits yeah

real scroll
#

I'm starting to like no vision for handcrossbow more and more it would limit your potential in interesting way

patent patrol
#

like all enemies block line of sight? that would just make third eye way too good

real scroll
#

Yeah but third eye is still limited

broken parcel
#

doesn’t each multi hit volley re-proc it?

crimson rock
#

It'll turn third eye into a required perk for hxb, but it could be polished

patent patrol
crimson rock
#

Vision applies to an entire multihit volley, and Third Eye has to be deactivated before it'll accept another 2 hits

broken parcel
#

ah

patent patrol
#

yeah

broken parcel
#

ive literally never taken it

real scroll
#

So 4 x7 turns into 2x7 optimal + 2x7 maybe optimal

patent patrol
#

so you would get one volley with no vision, then one volley with vision

real scroll
#

It's something

crimson rock
#

If you also reduce it to 3 uses

broken parcel
#

just lower the multi hit cap to 4… all these gymnastics Im tellin you guys

crimson rock
#

Then you're firmly pushed into using the second weapon to build 2 hits

patent patrol
patent patrol
broken parcel
#

i mean with this other stuff

crimson rock
broken parcel
#

ok?

#

then don’t

#

anyways hxb is op but multi hit in general is op so just touching hxb doesn’t really solve the problem

real scroll
#

3 would still be ahead of boom value, and offhand and reload value still would be probably best in game

broken parcel
#

3 is still a potential 8 per turn w/o reloaf

real scroll
#

Yeah that's why lowering just use number won't be enough

#

Unless you go to 1 or 2

broken parcel
#

I still think diminishing returns on multi hit was the best idea Ive seen yet

real scroll
#

Multi hit dmg stat let's go

broken parcel
#

noooooo

#

make it 80 and unchangeable

real scroll
#

New stat would also help lowering chances for multi hit levelup

#

So even better

crimson rock
#

multihit dmg stat - multihit gear has negative multihit dmg, other multihit gear converted to pure multihit dmg

#

secondary levelup pool becomes even more bloated, might need an omen just for increasing the choices to 6/4/3

real scroll
#

It would be fair

#

If propagation is so heavily regulated, multi hit also should

broken parcel
#

it just should be a flat amount to give prop a much needed edge

#

not that anyone takes prop dmg anyways

crimson rock
#

uncap prop damage, keep multihit dmg capped at 100

#

even then, I find it unlikely for prop to get crazy

sand verge
#

An elf beta had a skill with aoe propagation

crimson rock
#

and I will welcome it with open arms

leaden root
#

Let me do crazy dominoes with prop, heck yeah

dire locust
#

Would there being 2 options for each special tree (Assassin/Poison/Defense/Debuff) like the Physical/Ranged/Magic/Racial be a good idea?

patent patrol
#

No

#

Would make it even harder to get a useful hero from the inn

dire locust
#

I meant it as a way to nerf getting perks like Sadist & Crit Master etc without nerfing/reworking those perks

#

but also it would be a good idea to allow actually seeing what perks Inn heroes have

leaden root
#

I wouldn’t mind if those trees were more versatile too. Having options is nice.

But I’d really, really, really like the option to reroll perks. Have it be something you buy with tainted essence, like 1-3 perk rerolls per hero.

#

Sometimes I almost have a build but I’m missing a critical perk.

patent patrol
leaden root
#

Like I get that, but some perks are irreplaceable. Like you either have blood magic or you don’t. If your character has lots of things pointing them towards Blood Magic and no blood magic they’re a lot worse.

patent patrol
#

I have no idea what you mean by perks pointing them towards blood magic really

#

and like, the main thing that blood mage does it let you use mana consuming skills more, which mana collector sorta does, but it's slightly too limited compared to blood magic, but like, with some mana pots (or that beer that is +mana -health and some other ways to heal, like vampire) you can do without blood mage

#

and like, if there are move viable builds then you could see that they wouldn't be a perfect blood mage but would instead be a perfect some other thing that doesn't exist right now

leaden root
#

You don’t understand how Blood Magic, the only perk that completely changes how half a dozen other perks even function, can make or break a hero?

patent patrol
#

what perks do you think point a hero towards blood mage?

#

because yes, there are perks that get much better when paired with blood mage or specific weapons or both, but you can always build a hero in a way where they are good without needing blood mage, unless you are missing every good perk possible

broken parcel
#

anything but the debuff tree points to blood mage tbh

patent patrol
#

i mean, crit tree and crit runes and mana collector points to crit build that doesn't need to be blood mage, but can take blood mage. Relentless inertia Boom points momentum, which can be with blood mage or not. Spiky Counter Vampire Berserk points to physical damage tanking, which works well with blood mage but can work without it.
The Only build that really needs blood mage is Cannon Vivified Blood Collector, and you can get your healing from toxic leech or enough health pots if you really really try

#

And that's only cause Cannon benefits more from Vivified than any other weapon

broken parcel
#

if I have blood mage vamp im taking it with or without some or all of that every time

patent patrol
#

yeah, but the conversation isn't when is taking blood mage good, it's about when do you have other perks that mean not having blood mage makes the hero a dud

broken parcel
#

oh

patent patrol
#

and like, maybe the solution to that is make other perks better so that picking blood mage isn't correct as often

broken parcel
#

yeah very few things only work on a blood mage

#

a lot of them are a hassle without blood mage though

patent patrol
#

or like, there will be a completely different set of perks you can take that you do have that will be also very strong

#

I know you consider my perk choices absurd at times, but I've never seen a hero I can't so at least something with

leaden root
#

There’s a difference between “I can do something with this” and “I now have infinite mana as long as I’m using it to kill things” as with Blood Magic and Vampire. Also I gain back AP forever because my mana isn’t a limitation anymore and have access to unique perks that can’t be accessed any other way that now have synergy with my 1000 HP.

Like if I roll a hero with a bunch of +healing or health or health regen the difference between them having blood magic and not is is whether or not those stats do something or not.

patent patrol
leaden root
#

No other perk enables as many synergies as blood magic. It literally alters your other perks to better work with itself.

#

If that’s not considered “warping” to the perk pool I don’t know what would be.

#

I don’t necessarily want blood magic changed or nerfed or anything. But it’s why I want to be able to reroll perks. It’s such a huge pick up.

patent patrol
#

But like, I don't think Blood mage is as strong as you think it is? Like yes Blood collector is better than mana collector if you have enough Healing received, yes on some weapons Vivified is better than energised, yes Blood Shield is better than mana shield. Yes Bodybuilder and Sanguine fuel lets you get more value from Health.
But like, the strongest heroes don't need blood mage, and I have beaten tons of maps on tons of high apoc runs while not picking blood mage even with supporting perks available

leaden root
#

Heck I’d love to be able to Reroll the trees too. If I could flip Defense into Crit on someone with native crit boosts from traits I would.

patent patrol
#

"this perk is so good, so lets make it easier to get it and make the game revolve around it even more" isn't as good an idea as it might be in your head

leaden root
#

Sure, I’d like that too. However I also don’t think we’re getting much more than a number change from this balance pass.

I believe there’s probably a solid dozen perks that can’t be fixed with just number changes. Ergo, I’d like a solution that isn’t “let’s see how much reliability shorter weapons can give before it breaks something” and instead lets me flip it into something useful - long weapons.

patent patrol
#

I am hoping that they change the perks in meaningful ways

#

I think that is more likely than adding a reroll perk mechanic

leaden root
#

If there were perk rerolls, it would okay for “bad” perks to exist since you would have a resource to spend on fixing them.

#

And where to spend that would then be a decision.

patent patrol
#

there should be no actively bad perks, and all perks should be at least situationally good, and you should have to pick between the ones that are best for the situations you expect to end up in. It's okay if some of those situations basically never happen because you have other perks you can choose instead

leaden root
#

In an ideal world, sure. But when there are considerations of time and peoples salaries to pay - corners will end up getting cut. The best to hope for is an approximation of balance.

After all something will always be the worst option. People will always optimize a game over time.

I’d rather a quick and dirty fix than nothing getting fixed at all

patent patrol
#

the ability to reroll the perks would ruin a lot of what makes this game fun/interesting imo. I think it would be a worse option than doing nothing

leaden root
#

Considering we’ve almost never agreed that doesn’t surprise me.

However, I’m fairly confident that the devs said in this thread they weren’t doing drastic changes. And I think the worst perks need changes bigger than simple number adjustments.

patent patrol
#

I mean, they are in the process of doing a drastic change of the apocalypse system, Drastically changing maybe 4 perks, at most 10? when there are 90 perks in the game, isn't a drastic change to the game. They don't want to make drastic changes to the weapons, which is very understandable.
I think adding a perk reroll mechanic would be a more drastic change than reworking just over 1/10th of the perks

#

(okay, maybe more than 10, probably about 15)

#

(but there will be 100 perks not including medals or weapons after the elves dlc)

dire locust
#

I wouldn't want Blood Magic to be nerfed honestly, but more support for it to be usable with other weapon types would be cool.
With anything mana equivelant being 1:1 now 1:1.5 ratio, and the Resistance gained from Mana be less from 30% to 25%? with prices going x3 to x4.

That was already a significant change and I can see that Vampire + Blood Magic is a braindead combo as it allows you to use Physical weapons more powerful skills at no cost honestly and relatively early on (level 5/6) compared to Mana Collector requiring going all in on Critical and coming at level 9 while having an cap per turn meaning you cannot go all out casting infinite spells without drawbacks.

If there was a way to reroll a whole line/tree of perks I could see it be ok but for a Gold cost not Essence as that would just mean anyone that has done over 5 runs can really just use it until they get what they want or hit it's limit.

Removing even more RNG on the game will make it more formulaic for challenges/apoc and in general similar runs.
I've already mentioned that for me every run can feel like I'm just repeating the same actions because I've tuned what we have to do so.

#

You could always add something ridiculous like Omen of Blood Magic

leaden root
#

Omen of Blood Magic sounds amazing. Maybe as a limitless perk?

Just a very silly run.

dire locust
#

Also I can say that I'm washed up and can't really do hard runs anymore

leaden root
#

Also I don’t really want blood magic nerfed - I’d love if there were more perks that completely altered other perks.

#

It’s an example of something I think this game does right, and sometiems missing it on a hero hurts because of how fun it would be.

dire locust
#

another one that's nice is Runic Gift, allowing you to be a bit flexible with Trinkets

leaden root
#

Runic gift is an odd one. It doesn’t do much till you get your economy going but once you do it’s so many free stats.

broken parcel
#

runic gift omen would be kinda bleh tbh

dire locust
#

It's more so an Omen to allow extra trinket slots

crimson rock
#

What's this about? Perk rerolls?

#

I think the part of the game that needs less RNG would be night 1, and everything else wouldn't benefit as much from being able to slot in meta builds without examining what you already have

crimson rock
#

The solution to blood magic being so build altering is to make more perks that are build altering

dire locust
#

Kinda yeah, for example if you want to be more efficient with Poison, getting the Tree for it is the only way really and the Debuff tree for Hex and Sadist

#

There's like no synergy for poison at all without those specific trees

#

Maybe the less than optimal Initiator and QvQ for low dmg high Poison spread Dagger and Druid respectively

crimson rock
#

Memory Mage - You no longer gain experience. If you reach 0 health, you only die at the end of the night. EXP received is converted 1.5x into Healing Received.

dire locust
#

Reincarnation: The hero becomes level 1, keeping their Base stats from levelups, and randomises their perk tree

blissful marten
dire locust
#

The idea is you lose all perks to be able to levelup easier once again to gain even more stats as a trade

crimson rock
#

Yeah, and the tradeoff would be losing 1 or 2 perk points on the final kit

dire locust
#

Currently I only ever see it viable in Elderlicht

dire locust
#

HP regeneration perk would be cool, something like "Restore 5% of your Daily HP regen per turn"

crimson rock
#

I would do something like "Every 5 mana consumed, restore 10% of your Daily HP regen"

#

then the blood version is 1%

dire locust
#

Blood version wouldn't make much sense

#

but I want more stuff that happen "Start of turn" and "End of turn"

kind bridge
#

Honestly all I want is for the perks to be revisited in order to enable more builds, more fun stuff to do.
The game has like 4 builds going right now, everything else is subpar

tawny grove
#

So for balancing, I'm probably treading old ground because I've been away from this for a while, but my biggest thought is that there should be a "Crit Damage" multiplier. Right now all weapons start at base 1.5x crit damage, but that doesn't have to be the case. If we had 1.3/1.5/1.7x damage base depending on the wapon, some weapons would become 'crit weapons'. I'm looking mainly at the Two handed Axe and Sword here, and the Longbow - good candidates for it.

#

Conversely, the hand crossbow getting 1.3x crit damage stops the multi-attack/crit chance/crit damage scaling that makes it absurd. It's still a good weapon, but you can't just "do the thing" and have it be better than all the other things

#

It also solves one of my pet peeves that crit is just generically good - it doesn't feel like it's particularly better or worse with any weapon (except druid staff). The generically good stat should be "flat damage" while all the others unlock build choices

#

Reliability, similar. A few weapons with very large damage ranges (like -60% to +60%) would make it a real stat for certain weapons, and make it feel like part of a build instead of an annoying thing

#

Dodge is another stat I think should be looked at. A few games have done this for dodge, but I'd like to see a 'glancing blow' chance, where glancing blows do one third damage. Let a high enough dodge push that last 5% into 'always glancing blow' so it's possibly a reliable way to survive, not just RNG doom.

#

Finally, Propegate should be looked at. Cleaning up the code to make it a bit smarter about how it travels rather than random walking would be nice. Right now it does like to randomly dead end sometimes, and things you can't count on are meh. After that, a few of the propegate abilities could probably use a numbers tweak, but that's small stuff.

#

At a high level, that would open the playing field on weapons in an interesting way. Now with some weapons getting dramatically stronger with crit you would want to seek out crit weapons instead of crit being a damage multiplier for whatever 'the highest damage' weapon was. At the same time, multishot would no longer necessarily go insane with crit (hand crossbow cough cough). Reliability would open up certain weapons that would be very high damage with high reliability, but not so much without it.

That would let certain weapons without a strong role be adjusted into one. If I can suggest

dire locust
#

I guess you're a bit outdated on this, but Hand Crossbow doesn't always require Crit to work, you can have Sadist for max Opportunism or just Flat damage increase

It's just that Crit is the best damage stat as it requires no thinking cause of it's high multiplier ceiling.

tawny grove
#

Yup. It's exactly that I want to fix. If some weapons are particularly good with crit, then we'll want to use them even if their ability patterns are a bit awkward (two handed axe for instance)

#

While we can take weapons with very solid ability packages and make them low crit so they're not just 'strictly better'

dire locust
#

All weapons are good with, cause it's very easy to max out Crit%

tawny grove
#

Right! But that's because all weapons have the same crit - 1.5x damage. Imagine if some were 1.3x damage crits base. Then crit would not be particularly good on them. If some were 1.7x, then crit would be stellar on them.

dire locust
#

I don't think it being +/-20% matters

#

That would only stifle the early game if you got Critical Runes level 3

patent patrol
#

So they would have to be multipliers on the hero Crit damage stat, right? Rather than like a base Crit value that Crit power gets added to?

dire locust
#

I guess if you deleted Critical Master and a lot of the Crit power giving gear maybe?

tawny grove
#

@Abagail exactly! Multiplicative instead of additive.

#

Trust me, if it was the base the +crit damage was modifying rather than an additive, the math is very much that 1.3x is VERY different than 1.7x

patent patrol
#

Way back in early access I think the game did similar things for isolation and opportunism

#

But it does make the most sense for crit

dire locust
#

It's interesting, but I probably can't see it, without all the relative stats being actually changed and tested

tawny grove
#

Yup, its a high level change that needs a lot of playtesting, and probably a lot of minor weapon tweaks

patent patrol
#

Yeah, I think it's too late for the devs to want to change it now, but it's something I've thought of before and would be good to add to a balance mod once modding gets a bit more support

tawny grove
#

I think it's the perfect thing to change for an expansion honestly

#

Too big for a balance patch, but for an expansion... it's cool

#

The "glancing blow" chance for dodge and changing a few weapons to have very high damage ranges are certainly simpler tweaks to base stats

dire locust
#

I guess would've been better conveyed if you had the weapon or skill show: Critical Power x0.75 (75%) on the tooltip
While the Hero stat Crit Power is 150% base that would make it 113%

tawny grove
#

But reworking the propegate code to reduce dead ends is probably another "comes out with an expansion" type change

patent patrol
#

Personally I really don't like the glancing blow idea, I want dodge to be as simple as possible

tawny grove
#

Unfortunately as long as there's a 1 in 20 change to take full damage even with the most kitted dodge build, the result of that is that sometimes you die.

patent patrol
dire locust
#

I understand the concept (Disgaea has Nick), and it's a way to reward high Dodge or low Accuracy during the early mid stages, as later on you can usually ignore the dodge mechanic with stuff like Undodgeable or -Dodge effects

tawny grove
#

Isolation is fine because it's like basically the opposite of a generic multiplier - it takes work to make sure it does its thing.

patent patrol
#

The thing that dodge does now is prevent little enemies from "using up" your armour, so when you inevitably get hit by the big attacks you take less damage

#

And like, that's a fine and useful thing for it to do, especially given the numbers it has, but you do need other defensive stats

tawny grove
#

Yeah, it's more that fundamentally I hate the RNG nature of it, because sometimes your dodge hero will die because the stat might not do anything

dire locust
tawny grove
#

Or conversely if your stats are high enough you can survive without the RNG... well, that's what we tend to do with tanking heroes, so we just ignore dodge

#

RNG in survival is one of those things that's always been hard to balance, because 'well, sometimes you die' is just not an acceptable outcome.

RNG in damage is like 'sometimes the enemy lives' and we can plan for it, but there's no way to plan around 'bad luck, hero dead' except ignore the stat and focus on ones that are reliable

patent patrol
dire locust
#

I can think of like 2 skills with high isolation, Dagger and Orb, but somehow the latter kinda falls flat

#

You have Longbow with x1.25, which is like it doesn't matter

If there were more skills with more extreme multiplers it would be more fine to make the negative/lower than 100% Isolation/Opp

patent patrol
# tawny grove RNG in survival is one of those things that's always been hard to balance, becau...

So because the scariest enemies either have high accuracy or undodgeable skills, you can never really rely on dodge to save you from a lethal hit, but weak enemies start with negative accuracy, and are also the ones that are easiest to debuff their accuracy, and so it's easy to almost consistently dodge them, and they can account for like 60% of the hits a front line tank is likely to take

dire locust
#

Hammer Crush used to be that way, but got it's damage increased and Opp lowered so you don't need to use it with Opp as much

#

There's also the how would you justify the malus multipliers

dire locust
#

That would sorta add this glazing blow mechanic

patent patrol
#

could even do "when you successfully dodge, gain some amount of block/armour/resistance. When you get hit gain dodge" as an interesting perk

dire locust
#

Would it be dynamic or buffs?

#

Dynamic like OldCriticalMaster "Fear of Death" or buffs like Perseverance

patent patrol
#

Either would work, buffs would be stronger cause it'd work with blessing, but dynamic like fear of death would be definitely more balanced

tawny grove
#

That would be cool. Make dodge heroes avoid certain enemies. Changes your playstyle

#

I like that idea a lot

#

I'm going to write a reddit post about the crit idea because there's some math stuff that just doesn't make sense unless I can do a table but trust me, it does change crit quite a bit. I think I'm just being really bad at explaining it so I'll write out the table

#

The Last Spell - my favorite mod for excel

patent patrol
#

Oh I understand, and having different scaling on different stats for different weapons is very common (like, Brotato does it lol), and it would substantially change the value of crit for quite a lot of weapons

tawny grove
#

Oh god yes. Although a positive is that we could start "crit damage" at +0% rather than +50%

#

the more stats start at a baseline of +0% the happier a little gerbel in my head is

patent patrol
#

tbh, you could even have different skills/weapons have different modifiers on crit chance and crit power. So you can have some weapons that require more crit investment but have higher crit power rewards and vice versa
But I think it's too much for the devs to want to change now, save it for a sequel or Mods

crimson rock
#

I think the opposite

#

Handcrossbow is the weakest weapon for crit. Since crit applies after block, if you don't get through block first you're multiplying 1 or 2 digit damage by 200% or some such.

It's just that handcrossbow is the best weapon, and crit is very powerful. Nerfing handcrossbow's crit sounds nice, but it wouldn't majorly change how it plays.

patent patrol
crimson rock
#

There's a number of ways to apply glancing blow mechanics to dodge, but aside from the above reasons TLS just has so many hits from so many enemies that making the math complicated on dodge makes it harder for a casual player to estimate mitigation.

patent patrol
#

so even if you get less benefit from the crits, you still get so much value from crit master that crit hand crossbow is worth doing

#

(this is also reasons why block should be applied before all other multipliers, and also why sadist is better than crit master on hand crossbow)

crimson rock
patent patrol
#

I mean, yeah, you'd use hand crossbow to build up crit power and then use some other weapons with a high multiplier to do damage to bosses and stuff

#

alternatively you could do crit chance modifiers as well, and make it so 100% crit chance becomes 50% for hand crossbows, that would be a nerf to crit master on it
Would also be very annoying and unpleasent, and adding specific modifiers to the stats per weapon, or even per skill, would add so much to try and keep track of lol
It's more common in things like Dark Souls, where a lot of the maths is hidden from you stats are more abstracted
Or in things like Brotato, where you're balancing fewer elements and have slightly less to keep track of? (1 "hero", rather than up to 6)

crimson rock
#

crit chance modifier is certainly one way to close the gap between aoe and single target, and add a means for prop to have more killing value

violet swan
#

Funny how 2 years ago i wrote ideas for boomerang weapon, lets see how much was "borrowed" from my ideas 😉

blissful marten
#

New idea for defense: Conduit
Upgrade for barricades. Slight increase in HP, 50% resistance, and allows propagation to flow through them without taking damage

supple ether
#

Can you explain your short list

crimson rock
supple ether
#

Honestly they all sound good to me

delicate fulcrum
#

hey can i make a wierdsuggestion of having a minimum isolation and oppertunist modifier of like 20-50%?
Just doing a character with short weapons and flurry of blows medal (every hit not dodged gives +dmg and -acc) and now they cant kill any isolated unit as isolation is at 0.

I get this was not a smart move now, but feels bad to have a perk combo render a character useless

crimson rock
#

isolation is not affected by flurry of blows

dire locust
#

the one that turns Accuracy into Isolation, and Res Reduction into Opp

#

-100 Acc => -100 Isolation

crimson rock
#

ohhhhh.

#

Yeah that is NOT a smart move.

delicate fulcrum
#

sorry yes i should have said

#

no it wasnt, but i was just thinking about how many multipliers i could get and thought 'oh, opp, iso, and 500% dmg, lets go!' and didnt think about the -acc

crimson rock
#

I don't think it should be changed though:
-you have other heroes who can deal with isolated
-you can just miss from long range to reset the perk and get out of isolated 0
-it's funnier if this can happen

dire locust
#

It's only -100, so it mostly punishes you for being at baseline Isolation, assuming the hero is level 9 when you got it simply means you didn't get any Isolation?

dire locust
#

Multihit min stat is 0, so -1 MH does nothing

delicate fulcrum
#

nah accuraccy keeps going down. As You get to say +250% dmg you are on -200% accuracy. So this character has 176% iso usually so goes to 0% by that point

#

dont get me wrong, i should be punished, but literally a x0 multiplier is brutal

dire locust
#

That technically shouldn't happen as you are capped at 100?

delicate fulcrum
#

ill show you in the next night

dire locust
#

just makes me think of doing the opposite now, overcapping Accuracy to get more than +100% Iso

crimson rock
#

I mean I've gotten 70% accuracy before

#

but it's not an easy stat to get to 100+

delicate fulcrum
#

here is character usually

image.png
dire locust
#

Gear pieces can give about +15% each at level 5, +15/20 somewhere per Longbow, so you're near 75%

dire locust
#

+25% x 4

#

and Blessing for +200%

delicate fulcrum
#

well screwed up that character this night by hitting something in 1 hex but another character shows the game does calucaltue the neg accuracy to be below -%100

delicate fulcrum
#

ignore me i was wrong

#

the isolation i had that made them over 100% in the other night must have all been from the exploit weakness accuracy

dire locust
#

very sad then

delicate fulcrum
#

sorry to ruin your dreams of the most accurate hero ever

hoary willow
#

This upgrade is really underwhelming, I can't think of a situation where you would to spend money on it instead of anything else.

Suggestion:

  • Cost 80 => 40
  • Effect: +24 -> +32 Max HP => 2 Workers => 1 Worker
image.png
#

Suggestion 2:

  • Effect: +24 -> +32 Max HP => 1 free use per morning.
dire locust
#

Yeah in comparison to the Mana Well 6 -> 10 Mana for 1 worker, that's still a 66% increase vs the HP one only being 33% and needing 2 workers

#

And in Mana vs Blood Mage values this is twice as bad as Mana well because 6 mana vs 24 hp is the 4/1 ratio

#

An equivalent would be 80 hp for 2 workers or 40 hp for 1 worker vs the 10 mana a Well gives for 1 worker

#

While I do understand HP has an innate value as it allows a hero to survive damage; with mana you could trade that for one to three powerful mana costing skills

thin plover
#

I think block should be reworked. It matter to much in early game and nothing late game.

Block should be subtracted before others damage buffs like opportunity, momentum and isolation

patent patrol
kind bridge
#

Have they implemented any of the discussions here? Feels to me they just dropped a random update and called it quits

patent patrol
kind bridge
#

When is the next DLC ?

flat night
#

We don't have an announced date for the moment 🙂 But we're working on it!

dire locust
#

I believe it was mentioned for Autumn time in the roadmap

patent patrol
kind bridge
#

Ok. Nice

pale yew
#

Looks cool

#

Ilya will do a better job than me to explain what amours are just bad or not strong enough

For weapons to be changed ts kinda the same as the previous DLC patch :

  • 1h xbow could have a bit less dmg in early, its still a formidable tool
  • hammer needs a bit of smth maybe thorn dmg?
  • shortbow is kinda weak, not original, needs more cool stuff
  • shield is more or less spam ulti, could be more interesting, the shield bonk giving block should give purge
  • claws in early are really weak then become really strong not sure about this one yet

For perks : harvester was imo too weak, could do smth else like regen mana after a number of kill (would also make it better for blood mage) and will provide an alternative to blood collector but way weaker (bcz t2)

A little rework of thorns could be great or maybe more tools for melee to deal with the tons of debuff monsters have with apo mod.

crimson rock
#

1h xbow doesn't need much tweaking for earlygame, it's fine when you account for higher apoc interactions

#

shield purge is a bit too useful since then it becomes literally the best and only option for taking hits

#

Mana harvester's issue is that it needs mana growth to get good numbers. But Blood Harvester is actually pretty strong on organic armor. Healing received does a lot for some spicy 300 healing each night.

dire locust
#

I find Blood Harvester to be pretty bad if you at it on the aspect of how many perks you needs to do something like: +4.95 hp per 1 stack, needing 10 health for +1 phys dmg

patent patrol
#

Elven Perks:
Urban Hate; with basically no effort (just clearing ruins tbh) you get more mana regen than you could ever spend in a single night, as well as loads of experience gain. the perk falls of late game but by the time it does it's provided more than enough value to have been worth basically always picking
One With Nature: Rewarded for saving money on other things, not having any gear RNG to worry about, and getting tons of AP and the ablility to one shot just about any enemy. even if late game you give up on it it's early game power boost is way too much

Hunters Arsenal:
The poison on magic damage is pointless, does almost nothing and requires you to be choosing to hit things and not kill them. If it also applied on non damaging attacks that just applied negative alterations it would be way more useable
The Momentum on Physical attacks is the most broken OP unbelievable perk in the game.
Momentum on skills that didn't already have it is basically perk damage. other sources of perk damage cap at 40%, and have strict limits on their use, like proximity shot requiring close range.
Because when physical attacks gain momentum they also use the heroes base momentum stat, with just 5% ranged damage and 5% momentum you are at 10% total momentum.
the equivalent of 10% perk damage for every step!! you can expect to be getting somewhere between 20% and 200% bonus damage on skill uses! Including on mutli hit skills like poison daggers, flurry of strikes, or manual control thorny seeds. OR you apply that momentum to the 13 tile AOE of manual control catapult!
And with even just the slightest bit of investment in more momentum or ranged damage you can get 40% per step! making it trivial to have double damage on basically all physical attacks. Let alone the fact that it means you can get inertia to restore movement on all skills!

dire locust
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the Momentum on all Physical damage skills is something that was never intended to be a thing by initial design, otherwise we would've had the Momentum stat already work on all skills, at extremely minimal numbers (like +1% dmg per move, capped to +20% per move up to +400) with Momentum specialized skills multiplying that Momentum per move by x5 to x10

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Urban Hate I just find it broken overpowered because it breaks the pacing on hero leveling and when you're supposed to be getting certain perks; combine that with a pre-Night 1 Omen of Talent, and if you're insane +30% EXP Omen; you can get out of control very fast, to the point I was getting level 4 heroes with Urban Hate, One with Nature & Shorter Weapons with Shower of Blows before Night 2

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so I found even bothering to try the max Apoc difficulty pointless when I can just reroll myself to victory

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I hate One with Nature mostly because it's Free AP for no real effort which shouldn't be a thing, cause pre Elves the only real way to get Max AP / AP regeneration was Energized, which is mediocre and mana intense, and very lategame with Legendary Assassin, Night Owl and Adrenaline Rush (Perseverance was unusable)

lavish merlin
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Any plan to survey and balance the enemy? Archers now pierce armor, but their numbers and immediately attack when out of the mist weren’t adjusted, making them totally broken. Like in Elderlicht’s first two days, if archers spawn, the difficulty spikes hard and punishes players way too much.

blissful marten
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The point is that you can't neglect health/regen when sitting close to the mist. You need a lot of armor and SOME health to tank it

pale yew
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The items dropped by corpses shouldn't be cap to lv3 max, it makes Corpse gameplay really garbage right now.

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Ordeals should be easier to do, specially early night ones, they're already pushing a certain way to play meaning less freedom & some possible moves that'll cost you panic, big HP loss on heroes, harder corpse-play and overall less optimized uses of ressources
Some ordeals seem to be sometimes impossible depending of the hero gear like +9 tiles with physical dmg on early nights or "have your heroes get hit" when you're in night 2 with high apo

violet swan
pale yew
violet swan
trail fern
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I really think opportunism and isolation minimum damage should be either 25% or 50%.

sand verge
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So far i made it 15, 25 can be argued but 50 is definitely too high

trail fern
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15% makes sense with every positive multiplier getting to +200-500% i.e. a world where people get 800%(+) increased damage.

sand verge
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So a standard game?

trail fern
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Yeah - still a 0.15 multiplier is 1/6 damage - if this value only showed up in like night 8+ it would make sense. I mean it nulfilies two +150% damage increases.

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Hard Divergences should use a x2 "Difficulty" value (rounded up), instead of the maximum one.

sand verge
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I think you're more arguing that the divergeance stat penalties are too hars for iso/opp

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Which is fair and something i'll be looking at next update

trail fern
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It is the main context of negative multipliers, no?

I suppose there's also new super negative traits from apocalypse...

patent patrol
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The new traits mostly just change the maximum of stats rather than actually changing the stats

trail fern
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<UnitTraitDefinition Id="LowStress" LockedByApoFlag="TraitsParametersApo1">
<Cost Value="-3"/>
<StatModifier Stat="StunChanceModifier">-14</StatModifier>
<StatBoundaryModifier Stat="StunChanceModifier" MaxModifier="-80"/>
<StatBoundaryModifier Stat="OpportunisticAttacks" MaxModifier="-325"/>

<UnitTraitDefinition Id="TooColdBlooded" LockedByApoFlag="TraitsParametersApo1">
<Cost Value="-3"/>
<StatModifier Stat="CriticalPower">-50</StatModifier>
<StatBoundaryModifier Stat="CriticalPower" MaxModifier="-350"/

Sometimes they do both. and quite dramatically.

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<UnitTraitDefinition Id="Shy" LockedByApoFlag="TraitsParametersApo1">
<Cost Value="-3"/>
<StatBoundaryModifier Stat="OverallDamage" MaxModifier="-425"/>
</UnitTraitDefinition>

<UnitTraitDefinition Id="MentalVoid" LockedByApoFlag="TraitsParametersApo1">
<Cost Value="-3"/>
<StatBoundaryModifier Stat="MagicalDamage" MaxModifier="-80"/>
<StatBoundaryModifier Stat="ManaTotal" MaxModifier="-90"/>

Wow - i think i only used that dreaded apoc once. I remember losing arm, torso and a damage type i didn't use.

royal gulch
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Now that Rifles get propagation on skill 1, shouldn't the -10% propagation damage default debuff on the weapon be removed?

#

I'm not sure there are any other weapons that debuff their own skills

patent patrol
kind bridge
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it is quite stark the difference spawn formations have on short range melee weapons like Hammer, Great Axe (and axe somewhat)
in early nights when spawns are tight, these weapons are actually very good.
in the last night when monsters come from all over the place, these are one of the most painful weapons out there.

sand verge
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It's the exact opposite, they are good late game because your heroes have movements and teleports, phys weapons have better base damage scaling, and you can pull off combos like bodybuilder + blood magic + organic armor
Meanwhile early 6 movement for 1-3 range weapons is awful for catching stray enemies and staying out of harm's way

kind bridge
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not my experience.
these weapons have limited aoe shapes and require a lot of positioning - even the most mobile heroes will struggle to position and put good use of these skills
while your long range weapons, and multi-hit wonders can allow you to pick off whatever you need no matter how they spread.

early game, mobs come in tight packs, so a great axe or hammer can reliably hit all targets with its aoe
not unheard of that you can hit all 5 with a Great Axe swing or almost all the targets with a stomp from the hammer.

stragglers you catch with your ranged obviously

sand verge
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Sounds like you're playing at low apocs, where no +45% enemy wave size means it's hard to use AOE to its full extent, no enemy upgrades mean no armor piercing archers so the early enemy threat is lower, and no +1 enemy move so catching strays isn't a problem

kind bridge
sand verge
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32 apoc is pretty low, but i guess that's not the point

Yeah, boss nights require different gearing, aoe weapons are generally not good for those since the best strategy is to rush the bosses before enemies can surround your base. Hammer has no scaling, but greataxe still retains their utility thanks to the skill 3 buff and mobility from jump

kind bridge
honest jewel
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Why is this in "balancing" and not "strategy"?

sand verge
honest jewel
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(I disagree that boss nights are easier than the preceding nights, but, like everything else, it's complicated.)

#

(I generally disagree with almost everything Grobo says about balance. But I think neither of us see a problem with the different types of weapons.)

dire locust
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Boss night more often than not are a joke because you can ignore all enemies and still win

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you have variance with Elderlicht not even being a boss fight and Glintfein actually mattering to have wave management cause it takes a minimum of 11 turns compared to other maps

kind bridge
honest jewel
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I'm going to try to avoid getting into the "should every weapon be equally good?" argument again.