Allow trusted wastelanders (with extra steps) to be allowed to have mod so they can moderate the gam

[stiff sphinx]

Some would argue it is enough, but that's just differring opinions and experiences. I understand where you're coming from, people who do support this suggestion will fundamentally disagree with this point though.

I disagree.

[trail burrow]

@obsidian girder answer this. Whats the difference between a wastelander using a command and a aegis person doing a command??

[obsidian girder]

You can only warn or ecoban a wastelander, not demote, suspend, or exile them

[trail burrow]

answer the question

[left ibex]

but wastelanders given mod would be trusted and if they abused it then they would also be punished

[sacred cedar]

are we just gonna ignore how coolguy said there'd be a process for them to get it, i'd assume similar to how SC does it

[placid torrent]

You forget the main core of this game is aegis, not wastelanders

[stiff sphinx]

bias (to my knowledge) is heavily mitigated in AEGIS. It's one of the few groups that I know of that do such a good job at making sure that bias is not an important factor in decision making. Obviously it's always going to be there, but AEGIS has so many ways to validate decisions to prevent bias.

[obsidian girder]

^

[wary hatch]

if they do abuse it you can always take it away or even ban them

[trail burrow]

yes "main core" that wouldnt change

[placid torrent]

It would

[sacred cedar]

also isn't the punishment for mod abuse an exile?

[trail burrow]

how?

[subtle tapir]

i have a feeling majica is saying that as is, it would be far harder to moderate usage of wastelanders using commands compared to SC for the stated reasons

[crystal arch]

if the problem is "no one speaks up for the poor wastelanders" has no one considered this is the role the officer core is supposed to play

[placid torrent]

You will understand eventually you are too new

[trail burrow]

how?

[scenic whale]

Yeah thats probably the main thing about this suggestion, some people have the opinion that said issue is reason enough for creating a system where wastelanders have mod and others have the opinion that it isn't.

All in all it would be ToML/SC UOC that would have to decide on if they want to put the efforts in to this and I doubt they do. Thus why I don't see it happening if we are being realistic.

[sleek stirrup]

then i'd rather suggest having wastelander representatives who would be involved in moderation cases concerning bias, whos words would actually have some sort of influence and actually be reflected on properly, without the moderator privileges

[trail burrow]

tell me instead of avoiding the question

[obsidian girder]

Skull

[placid torrent]

💀

[obsidian girder]

Adding a system that isnt needed

[sleek stirrup]

not just simple "plead your case" and have everything else rest in the hands of sc or hicom

[north storm]

As I said earlier

If this idea was to be implemented, I would prefer it to be implemented as an integrated part of SC

Splitting it up into separate groups has only caused issues. Look at how Officer+ and SC function, there is often lots of discourse between both groups, and both groups have a superiority complex against eachother

More integration = tighter cooperation which means not only a diverse set of opinions (and lower potential for bias), but also better cohesion among the moderation team overall

[trail burrow]

majica and hxx are in their own bias area, they see mod abuse as a watselander different to sc, they are the same thing

[north storm]

the last thing I would want is for this to become a third moderation group

[placid torrent]

Why wasn’t this made before then? This game was made in 2015

[sleek stirrup]

best solution

[stiff sphinx]

Wastelanders don't really have any connection with bias cases, though. Veering offtopic.

[trail burrow]

answering my question with another question

[placid torrent]

I have a point though

[obsidian girder]

Also what would wastelanders with mod punish for lol

They arent in the border

[trail burrow]

answer the question ur point clearly isnt good

[wary hatch]

banned

[obsidian girder]

Only some punishments are there

[north storm]

In this instance it isn't bias but rather just different opinions. just because they disagree with you does not make it bias lol

[obsidian girder]

In wasteland

[trail burrow]

it is tho read what they have sent

[north storm]

Same stuff as SC primarily

[stiff sphinx]

dipping from this conversation. the suggestion isn't bad but it would need some effort (not an unrealistic amount of it) to implement. Is it necessary? Idk, I don't play anymore.
Could it potentially help DoD when there aren't any SC/Officer+ on? Yes.

[crystal arch]

dont worrry i see mod abuse as horrific and it should be ecobannable

who is supposed to oversee these wasteland mods and ensure they dont abuse

[placid torrent]

Sc are better trained to moderate the game as a whole, wastelanders do not have the same standards aegis has to follow

[trail burrow]

perm ban should ne added ngl, mod abuse isnt a small eco appealable ban

[crystal arch]

i doubt theyll receive the same scrutiny that aegis sc would

[stiff sphinx]

all mods oversee each other. almost all AA gets reported

[north storm]

Mod abuse is already ecobannable if you are in SC

[trail burrow]

how do SCs get blackliseted and abuse mod then

[trail burrow]

thats not permenant tho its appelable

[placid torrent]

They are humans

[subtle tapir]

there are more ways to punish an SC who abuses mod compared to a wastelander

[sacred cedar]

eco ban?

for both

idk

[trail burrow]

anyways this is derailing the topic

[sacred cedar]

mod abuse is a big thing and should be treated very highly

[trail burrow]

fr

[subtle tapir]

i concur

[north storm]

Mod abuse is not taken lightly in SC at all

SC also has VERY low rates of mod abuse, it is something we do not take lightly and it is punished severely, often an ecoban

[crystal arch]

just like (some) trialing scs, some wasteland mod is going to run :kickwarn others and get a slap on the wrist

[trail burrow]

i disagree, someone mod abuses all u do is blacklist them

[obsidian girder]

Ecobans can be appealable and unappealable

[trail burrow]

what light persons>

[scenic whale]

Yes but mod abuse can also happen by accident and on a small scale, hence why there are most likely different punishments for different severities of AA.

[trail burrow]

you cant accidentaly abuse mod bro

[north storm]

The main thing in regards to this is intent, mistakes do happen so we have to be lenient there

Common sense matters

[sacred cedar]

if it's taken more lightly: remove their mod temporarily

[placid torrent]

How do you know that

[sacred cedar]

there's a reason that divisional suspensions exist

[obsidian girder]

You can

[kind hollow]

And what happens if a wasteland mod abuses?

[sacred cedar]

it's when they break minor enough punishments

[trail burrow]

how>

[sacred cedar]

ECOSYSTEM BAN

[north storm]

Did someone run :ban others? Possibly a mistake

Are they flying around and killing people? Obviously admin abuse

[obsidian girder]

Accidental mod abuse exists

[kind hollow]

We can’t handle them due to mod level

[sacred cedar]

..

[crystal arch]

an officer in this situation would likely receive a permanent, unappealable warning that stays on their record forever

an sc receives a trello warning they can just appeal at their convenience

[north storm]

Also I would like to say :kickwarn others and such does not happen very often either

[sleek stirrup]

most of my time being in this community as a wastelander, biased bans or other sets of punishments have been an occuring issue, mostly related to cases of false accusations of exploiting, which heavily correlates to the bias mentioned, mostly aegis member related reports being overlooked

[trail burrow]

light_lightix

[kind hollow]

Depends on the severity

[trail burrow]

that isnt SC tho thats officer

[north storm]

on the contrary I've seen Officers get away with mod abuse that would get them exiled from SC

[placid torrent]

This is true

[crystal arch]

my point is that accidental mod abuse is waved off frequently

despite that people who graduate from academies should not be making those mistakes

[kind hollow]

And mod commands often lead to classified stuffs

[trail burrow]

its harder to ban an officer because they are seen as more trusted

[sacred cedar]

hey so

most wastelanders dont have classified places that they cant go

[scenic whale]

Yes, that would be more fair. But something like a demotion or infraction mark isn't really possible without implementing an entire system for wastelanders with mod, it would require almost just as much work as managing SC's with mod. I simply don't think its worth the efforts. If you want more mods in-game just focus on recruiting more SC however hard that is, there is an already working system for SC.

[sacred cedar]

one of the places is: sc room where sc shouldn't be using help command

[north storm]

Quite frankly the Officer core is much more relaxed on the intentional cases, SC may be more relaxed on the accidental cases but the important things in accidental cases is that they learn from their mistakes

I do not believe in permanment records, people can learn from their mistakes, rarely one person may accidentally do :kickwarn others, they get punished, they learn from their mistakes and they never do it again

[trail burrow]

anways this isnt talking about the wasteland mod this is talking about mod abuse

[crystal arch]

which is fairly directly related to wastelanders

[sacred cedar]

i mean, they're saying wastelandesr with mod abuse

if we cna prove that sc is no better

it's more liekly to be added

[trail burrow]

ig

[crystal arch]

not necessarily

[placid torrent]

Do you see more often wastelanders or aegis abusing

[crystal arch]

im saying that the wastelanders who would be interested in this would likely end up being those who should not be trusted with mod

[sacred cedar]

im already aware this will most likely not be the case

[crystal arch]

because they would use it to advantage themselves

[sacred cedar]

im just saying that this argument is a decent one to have

[trail burrow]

someone answer this question without answerng a different question. Whats the difference between wasteland mod abuse and Sc mod abuse.

[crystal arch]

we're going to wake up one day and see what? mo6ve, as chief wasteland moderator?

[north storm]

Your argument that "they can appeal the warning at their convienience" does not matter as long as they never do the mistake again, we are trying to educate them, not to leave them with a mark on their record which forever impacts their chances at promotions or leaves them one step closer to an exile

[placid torrent]

☠️

[trail burrow]

someone answer this question without answerng a different question. Whats the difference between wasteland mod abuse and Sc mod abuse.

[crystal arch]

i never said there was a difference

[trail burrow]

ok but someone who disagrees needs to answer it

[crystal arch]

other than that those in aegis actually have to adhere to basic expectations

[trail burrow]

@placid torrent answer- someone answer this question without answerng a different question. Whats the difference between wasteland mod abuse and Sc mod abuse.

[crystal arch]

unlike wastelanders who have no rules and are literally against the corporation that would be granting mod

[trail burrow]

no rules yet people are ecobanned...

[crystal arch]

adhere to no rules*

[trail burrow]

so your saying people do mod abuse in the game

people are getting ecobanned when there are no rules

[crystal arch]

spawn camping is a rule and you see wastelanders unable to adhere to it every damn day

[trail burrow]

thats mod abuse

[placid torrent]

Who would deal with a wastelander abusing mod?

[north storm]

Anyway, This suggestion is not something I am against

As I said though how I want to see it done is tightly integrated as a part of SC ideally, this would mean probably considering them members of SC although they wouldn't get the gear or likely be in the group

Tighter cohesion is better for cooperation which in turn means more opinions in discussions and such

The matter of wasteland mod abuse, bias, etc is something which would have to be tackled which is why we would start with probably a small trial run first and then expand as necessary

[placid torrent]

What is the chain of command for wastelanders @trail burrow

[sacred cedar]

i mean, this would be useful as most people dont report spawn camping cause they dont know the specific rules of it, and sc cant just watch wastelanders 24/7

[trail burrow]

read what i said, dont answer it with a different question

[subtle tapir]

mo6ve as chief wasteland moderator of course

[trail burrow]

please just answer the question

[crystal arch]

bigger question though why dont these wastelanders who wanna moderate just...join sc??

the rank requirement is literally operative

[placid torrent]

Wastelanders dont have a chain of command, unlike sc. Somebody abusing in sc can be punished accordingly. Wastelanders no

[scenic whale]

From a different perspective, before you can even apply to SC and thus get mod you have to be operative in Aegis and thus have somewhat experience and standing in the group, while wastelanders can be a random person.

[north storm]

This means it would all be dealt with under SC however

[sacred cedar]

because sc have other duties than moderation

[trail burrow]

there could be a couple Oficcer+ dedicated to wasteland moderation

[left ibex]

probably because they also want to raid

[sacred cedar]

that too

[trail burrow]

ye, aegis is so boring

[sacred cedar]

i'd love to raid and moderate

[north storm]

This is something that can be solved fairly easily

[placid torrent]

And who would be above these officers+

[crystal arch]

uc's, as usual

[trail burrow]

idk im not an officer+

[north storm]

The solution in my opinion as I said would be to incorporate this as a part of SC

[trail burrow]

@solar finch would u be down?

[placid torrent]

So what we saying is that aegis officers should deal with wastelanders abusing their mods?

[crystal arch]

personally i dont think this should be part of sc

[left ibex]

i like this idea

[north storm]

Since we already have most of the guidelines and procedures to accomodate such a thing anyway

[placid torrent]

R we serious 💀

[crystal arch]

i think it should be a separate entity, managed by aegis officer+, similarly to how amcs runs with aegis oversight

[north storm]

It would be a lot of work but it's fairly feasible I think

[trail burrow]

guys ill be head of wasteland moderation

[placid torrent]

Nah mo6ve will

[trail burrow]

whose that

[sacred cedar]

@north storm if this gets added, hmu i'd love to discharge for this

[north storm]

I disagree, You should know how SC x Officer cooperation works

The last thing we need is SC x Officer x Wastelander cooperation

SC x Officer cooperation is already atrocious at times

[left ibex]

94_B2 would easily catch every exploiter though

[trail burrow]

mabey its because all the SCs are so stuborn

[placid torrent]

Ong

[crystal arch]

then make it better? ive tried collaborating with sc and got told sc's way is better and they arent interested in hearing any opposition

[north storm]

You have absolutely no clue

[trail burrow]

erm well in the past 2 hours ive seen it all

[north storm]

And then you have Officers which do the same stuff too, it's a double sided thing

[trail burrow]

read the first 300 chats

[north storm]

you're only saying that because some SC's were disagreeing with the suggestion smh

They're allowed to have an opinion

That does not make them stubborn

[trail burrow]

Nope u guys are just stubborn, dw your not involved your actually reasoning why

[sacred cedar]

i mean, tbf alot of their arguments basically just said that they dont want their job stolen

[solar finch]

Huh?

[sacred cedar]

and "sc exist"

or something along those lines

[trail burrow]

Wasteland SC moderator lead

[trail burrow]

100%

[left ibex]

i don’t think the few SC that have talked here can represent the entire division

[sacred cedar]

without really listening to the arguments

NOT ALL

but most i saw was basically taht

[trail burrow]

Hmm idk

But Yh ur right

[north storm]

I would love to have more cooperation between Officers and SC

But how do I do that when I have literal SC and Officers constantly beefing with eachother

How do I do that when I have literal Officers speaking against me behind my back

How do I do that when everyone is so stubborn and uncooperative with eachother

How do I do that when I have Officers that come and put words in my mouth and then accuse me of things

I'm sick of it

[trail burrow]

U said they aren’t stubborn now ur changing up 🤡

[north storm]

And ofcourse it is not all Officers, but a select few

[left ibex]

https://tenor.com/view/political-tww-starboard-politics-gif-18079403

[north storm]

Everyone is

[left ibex]

sorry i had to

[north storm]

It's horrible

[trail burrow]

Do you like jst hating on me?

[north storm]

I'm not hating on you at all

I'm literally fairly open to this idea

[trail burrow]

Yh tbf your the agreeer I respect you very much

[north storm]

My point is that literally everyone there is stubborn

[trail burrow]

Your not tbf

[north storm]

I go into SC chats, Officer chats and see people constantly talking bad about Officers or SC

[trail burrow]

90% of people don’t even let you use the feedback area bc they say your rage baiting

It’s funny

[sacred cedar]

also, if people have so much of a struggle with wastelanders mod abusing, have them do a trialing mod thing like trialings do in SC

[solar finch]

Wastelanders with mod... I mean, my question is, why exactly do you want this? What was the meaning of this idea you want to implement?

[sacred cedar]

lack of moderation

[north storm]

I get Officers which PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH AND TWIST WHAT I SAY

[trail burrow]

Less bias/ easier to catch people evading the rules / lack of moderation

[sacred cedar]

a main case is: wastelanders spawn camping/killing and sc can't just watch them 24/7

and people dont report it

[solar finch]

So the strong part here is the lack of moderation?

[sacred cedar]

people copy and then they get reported and banned but not the original people

[sacred cedar]

yes

imo

lack of moderation

[trail burrow]

People don’t report to the report area bc they don’t have the dc

[solar finch]

In this part... Well...

[north storm]

I went into the Officer chat last week and then I got flamed by some Officers purely because they said something about SC and I wanted to get clarification on it for genuine feedback

IT'S STUPID

I'm sick and tired of it

[trail burrow]

@north storm DMs rq I have smt to say

[north storm]

these people know who they are

[solar finch]

I feel that people don't report because later they're called snitches or something like that, and then you know how it ends.

[north storm]

and then they come to me later and try to act friendly about it

[sacred cedar]

i do feel like having the popularity thing is also part of it

[north storm]

so yeah, why don't I improve cooperation between SC and Officers

It's because the ENTIRE THING IS A COMPLETE AND UTTER MESS

IT DOES NOT FUNCTION AT ALL

It is the most DYSFUNCTIONAL SYSTEM IN THIS ENTIRE GROUP

I stick up for these people and I get repaid with this stupid behaviour

There's your answer Super

[trail burrow]

They should make player reports anonymous

[sacred cedar]

i mean, that doesn't really help

cause if someone wants to argue their case the clip has to be sent

so they'll know who sent it

and it's most likely not gonna be put in, or not gonna be enforced that people cant share those details

[solar finch]

I mean, if it's a recognizable wastelander, with a lot of good things in the community, and has some experience with dealing stuff, I would say yes. But that would kinda hard to implement.

[trail burrow]

Not rly

[north storm]

The only way a system such as these should ever be implemented is if it is directly integrated into atleast one of the moderation teams

[solar finch]

So you want a random wastelander to moderate outside...?

[north storm]

I would pick SC for that as we already have much of the guidelines setup for such things so the adaptation would be less involved with recruitment too

[sacred cedar]

the entire point is they wouldn't be random

[trail burrow]

Idk why everyone says random like of course not it would be random

Wouldn’t

[north storm]

theoretically maybe you could make it jointly managed by SC and Officer+ too but that may cause issues down the line

[north storm]

I hope that satisfies you

the truth is it's a complete mess

If you can't see that then I don't know what to say

[trail burrow]

Make what jointly managed?

[solar finch]

I would still not agree on this.

[trail burrow]

Why not? There are no negatives to it.

[north storm]

This idea

[trail burrow]

Ok thought u meant the officer x SC

[north storm]

But I think that would probably cause more issues than it would be worth personally

[north storm]

Not possible

[trail burrow]

Such as?

[north storm]

You have no context so it is hard to explain those issues for you

As I have detailed above in my rant

[solar finch]

There are fights between both sides, and getting a third party could lead to more fights.

[north storm]

Officer x SC work horribly together

[solar finch]

So no.

[trail burrow]

Tbh the one issue is who would manage the mod abuse of wastelanders

[trail burrow]

There will be no relationship really tho

[north storm]

And the reason why is because both think they are superior over the other (when in reality they should be treated as equals) and the overall disconnect between SC and Officers which is in their duties as well and how they are structured

[solar finch]

Correct.

[north storm]

It's stupid

I'm sick of it

[trail burrow]

Officer is superior on my view but idk, there are countless stupid SCs not many officers

[north storm]

Then you are apart of the issue

[trail burrow]

No

Officers are just more experienced that’s the facts

[solar finch]

You can't comment if you don't know how it is inside.

Which is...

The thing.

[sacred cedar]

if you see officers higher than sc moderation wise.. you're not looking in the right places

[north storm]

I am a Unit Commander and the UOC of Site Control, while I am biased myself, I have spent lots of time in both sides, the system would work so much better if everyone could get along, but they don't

And a big reason as to why they don't get along is because everyone thinks they're superior over the other because they're more experienced, or because they actually moderate the game more, or whatever

[trail burrow]

Oh moderstion wise, SC are higher since the officers are a last resort

[solar finch]

Both have their high points, but at some point, they must cooperate.

[sacred cedar]

they should be equal when it comes to how they moderate, while sc sure takes priority it kinda doesn't make sense why they do

[north storm]

You are reinforcing the very issue I am talking about by saying this

[trail burrow]

Yh ik lol

[north storm]

It is clear you do not understand what I am saying

And that you do not understand the core problem

[sacred cedar]

imo officers should be allowed to do just as much moderation as an sc regardless if they're online or not, cause if the sc is afk officers still cant do anything about it

[north storm]

I am not going to argue with you on this

[crystal arch]

#1469926973412212999 message this is what im referring to, by the way

i tried compromise, i even worked with an sc who was high ranking from the outset, and then oops, sc doesnt even want to work together

yeah, the collaboration between the two is tense, because youre right, theres chats with two very different people, and mod comms is not used enough

if sc and officers were actually using that channel, maybe the result would be more collaborative, but theyre not

i hope you dont think youre the only one who gets to be frustrated (no offense)

[trail burrow]

No I definitely understand, there is clearly a conflict between both and I have literally done what your saying is the problem

[north storm]

You clearly do not

[solar finch]

Oh no, the Unknown!

[trail burrow]

I do but sure

[crystal arch]

coolguy can see what im talking about

i see no reason to name names

[north storm]

You cannot say "Officers are superior to SC" and then say "I get what you're talking about with both sides thinking they are superior to eachother"

If you think one side should be above the other, you are apart of the problem and you do not understand the issue

[trail burrow]

That’s ur exact argument tf u mean

[solar finch]

Still, about this idea. Nope.

[sacred cedar]

also yeah, i do think this conversation is kinda getting off topic

just a tad

[north storm]

Which you admitted yourself that you do

[trail burrow]

Yh lol

[solar finch]

I don't want more bombs in a place bombarded.

[trail burrow]

Ik I do asmkt

[north storm]

I think I've been quite clear

[trail burrow]

I mean it would work then if you’re saying it wouldn’t be apart of SC?

[north storm]

I think you do not understand the core dynamics or issues, and I think you are just saying you do but in reality you do not

[trail burrow]

Mmm sure

This ain’t the topic anyways if you want you can create a new feedback with this idea u have

[north storm]

I think that is perfectly illustrated by you agreeing with my points and then proceeding to say that Officers are superior to SC (Which goes against my point that both should be EQUAL)

[trail burrow]

Ngl I kinda did that on purpose to show the divide

[north storm]

I am not interested in hearing your input on the matter if you are going to agree with my point and then proceed to say something which is against my entire argument

I deal with enough people like you already

[trail burrow]

I agree with your point what u on

[north storm]

Give me a minute

[foggy gulch]

In my personal belief, it would and wouldn’t work.

Wastelanders while yes some have the capabilities to be moderators it would put a strain on moderating what they do and it could easily be abused with delayed punishments.

I don’t see it as any wastelander can just get it, it should have some sort of criteria, Ex; recently honorably discharged SC or a recently discharged Officer Core member and neither should have any punishments on their record.

Then they would have to have a super limited amount of commands and would have to to get approval before doing ANYTHING, one slip up and they could just ban someone for no reason, also if they wanted to fully do their job they would need access to a few classified channels.

Well I don’t know what else to say but like it would and wouldn’t work. maybe AMCS could have a possible shot but I don’t think Dylan would implement it

[north storm]

You cannot agree with my point and then say something which contradicts my point

It's like saying "I support free public transport" and then saying "trains should cost money to ride on because they are expensive"

They are contradictory

[wary hatch]

don’t think chairguy cares tbh

ultimately this would probably be voted by ToML

[trail burrow]

That backs your point up

[foggy gulch]

ToML would still have to get approval before doing it 🥀

[wary hatch]

months of voting 💀

[solar finch]

Well, it is part of the topic, since adding new people with mod falls as well in this feedback.

But as I repeat, we can't just add people until things are really solved.

[trail burrow]

Someone get a toml involved in this debate/topic

[solar finch]

It is no needed for a ToML for this.

[trail burrow]

Ngl it shouldn’t just be a toml vote since they would be bias it should be a whole community vote

[wary hatch]

thus would have been a very very thorough way of actually achieving this

[north storm]

Yeah I know, I am just stating my personal opinion on the matter

It is an issue with both sides as I said, it is not exclusive to neither side, and anybody that thinks that it is, is part of the issue as well

In an ideal world SC and Officer+ would work together on most matters, but there is so much discourse and everyone thinks they're better than everyone else

You ask me why I don't try to fix it. I am not the only person in control, it needs ToML approval, the Officer core has to agree with it, etc, most of the time those things don't line up. You can't really improve cohesion if people don't want it

[wary hatch]

it should not just be here some apps fill it out all right approved for moderation

[solar finch]

In some point yes.

[trail burrow]

@north storm do you think this should be a whole community vote or how would it actually work?

[solar finch]

Since they're in charge of actual changes.

[magic vector]

brainwashing academy for newbie wastelanders

https://tenor.com/view/eternal-sugar-cookie-whatever-go-my-scarab-go-my-eternal-sugar-cookie-run-kingdom-cookie-run-gif-16035065441172317516

[sacred cedar]

@magic vector omg pls mod 😔

[wary hatch]

tbh that was my initial thought behind Officer+ having mod. That SC and them would actually work together

[magic vector]

it's like you're haunting me

[north storm]

Either there is a language barrier here or you're just not understanding

[trail burrow]

I’m English

[wary hatch]

Officer+ there for when SC aren’t online

[solar finch]

You're not the only one with that dream. When I was SO, I thought the same, but reality is another thing.

[north storm]

You can't say "I'm pro free public transport"

and then say "Trains should cost money though"

You did that earlier

[wary hatch]

that realization hit when I became AFA 💀

[north storm]

If only

[trail burrow]

Bro SC is for in game moderation Officer is discord moderation and partly in game

[north storm]

That is not remotely my argument and not what you said either

[trail burrow]

Well it shows that officer has more responsibilities than SC idk if you can accept that since your in SC

[north storm]

You're allowed to think Officers are more experienced then SC or whatever

but you cannot say "I agree with you coolguy, I think both should be equals" and then say "Officers are superior to SC"

[north storm]

Officers actually have less responsibilities than SC and I think any Officer would agree with that

[trail burrow]

Well I agree with what you said bc you said that you guys a argue

[north storm]

Officers have 3 main duties

1. Grading duty states
2. Hosting trainings
3. Moderating the Discord

SC have far more duties than that

[trail burrow]

Clearly not if you guys are fighting about whose more

[trail burrow]

What are the SC duties then

[sacred cedar]

in game moderation
protocl stuff
other protocol stuff (this is a summary and doesn't include most of what sc actually does during there)

[north storm]

Nobody is fighting over who has more duties

[sacred cedar]

im aware sc have FAR more duteis

[trail burrow]

Say the SC duties

[sacred cedar]

take like those 3 things i said and have each of them include 5 different sub sections

[wary hatch]

as an exofficer i can agree with that Officers are more logistics and SC is more physically out there so to speak

[sacred cedar]

and that'd be about more right

[solar finch]

Mhm.

As a main divisionless, I agree.

[north storm]

SC duties include but are not limited to

• Moderating the game
• Checking #🚶player-reports
• Deciding which protocols to call and calling them
• Supervising ARD experiments
• Coordinating AEGIS in defensive protocols like incursion and lockdown
• Managing personnel at posts, ensuring that all vital posts are filled
• Approving patrols
• I can go on if you want?

[swift falcon]

nice leak

[sacred cedar]

wow

nice

[north storm]

There is not a single Officer which would agree with you that Officers have more duties or responsibilities than SC

Nobody is arguing over that

[sacred cedar]

moderating the games deserves at least 6 sub sections of what it is

including player reports in that

[trail burrow]

Player reports is in game moderation.

[solar finch]

[trail burrow]

Also officer is also in game moderation

[north storm]

Nope

[sacred cedar]

no

officers are a last resort kinda

[wary hatch]

yep^

[north storm]

Officers are not in-game moderation unless if there is no SC online. It is not one of their core duties

[trail burrow]

Then why when I did !help did Ori show up? In game moderation

[sacred cedar]

last resort

[trail burrow]

The word unless is key

[north storm]

probably because no SC with mod were on

[wary hatch]

cause there was no SC available??

[north storm]

It is not a core duty of Officer+

Simple

[trail burrow]

Do all officers have the commands?

[wary hatch]

ofc

[trail burrow]

Therefore in game mods

[wary hatch]

but very limited

[north storm]

Yep but they don't use them unless if there are certain pre-requisites

[vapid anvil]

Holy clueless.

[north storm]

SC has much more use over them

[wary hatch]

LIMITED

[trail burrow]

But again

[trail burrow]

They still have them and that’s what make them the mod

[north storm]

while officers are considered moderators, moderating the game is not a core part of their duties

They are a last resort as multiple people have said

[trail burrow]

Well they still have it

[north storm]

Whatever you say

[trail burrow]

I get what your saying but if they have the commands they are an in game moderation

[north storm]

I don't think there is much point in continuing this discussion, you do not seem to understand how the group functions and that is okay

[wary hatch]

eh

[solar finch]

I don't know if I need to laugh or what is going on... But Officers can moderate if SCs are modless or there's no SC with mod. But SC is mainly for in-game things. Officer - Veteran Officers cannot do things if those requirements are not met.

[trail burrow]

Also the fact the officer had to come to my request shows th wasteland mod should be a thing

[north storm]

But I do not want to argue with someone over something they don't know much about.

[foggy ledge]

So this convo way too big can someone tell me why officers having mod is inside this discussion

[compact cypress]

get the fuck outta here

[wary hatch]

that’s because there was no SC so the Officer took it

[compact cypress]

TF IS THIS

[solar finch]

Since they want a third party with mod too, and...

Well...

[trail burrow]

Ik ik I’ve been told about 50 times mabey

[foggy ledge]

Really

[north storm]

It's hard to know where to start

[solar finch]

The title says too much.

[compact cypress]

actly

guys i agree

[wary hatch]

In relation to the suggestion they want Wastelanders to have mod to uphold activity and biases

[compact cypress]

i want admin or mod

[trail burrow]

The one corpse told me to copy and paste btw

[north storm]

Going back to my original point,

You cannot agree with my point that SC and Officers should be equal and then say "Officers are superior to SC"

[foggy ledge]

Ye no wastelanders shouldn't have mod

[north storm]

Case closed

I do not care if you agree with me or not

But do not pretend to

It is stupid

[trail burrow]

Officers > SC

[north storm]

Furthermore you have little clue how the group actually functions which is evident

Anyway

[trail burrow]

You’ve said

[solar finch]

Well, now returning to the topic.

[north storm]

I suggest we move on from this conversation and get back to the topic at hand

[trail burrow]

I agree

[north storm]

I am not interested in discussing this further

[solar finch]

No.

[crystal arch]

i would not necessarily say we have less than SC

ours are in different areas

[solar finch]

I don't agree.

[north storm]

in terms of sheer number of duties, any division has more than Officer+

Officer+ are more of an addon for divisions, not the main experience

I'm not saying that's how it should be

but that is how it is

[crystal arch]

you say moderating the discord but thats not just one discord

[trail burrow]

So you just lied to yourself

[crystal arch]

its something like 10

but then again we're also not really in a "who has it worse competition here"

[north storm]

I'll correct myself

I'm not interested in discussing it with you because you don't know what you're talking about and you're saying random stuff

[foggy ledge]

So like what are your points in why wastelanders should have mod

Because that seems not very apparent

[compact cypress]

debate time

@trail burrow list out the points

[jovial lily]

you go cool

[solar finch]

Ok, guys' conclusion: Both parties have more power in their respective zones, but that doesn't mean we need to fight for who is better.

Now we return to topic.

[jovial lily]

can we lock this post

[compact cypress]

officers get L3 card so like they win

[solar finch]

Pfff.

[jovial lily]

this is never happening

[solar finch]

You little bastard!

Ok ok, now...

[compact cypress]

ok officers have more aura

[solar finch]

About wastelanders getting moderation, it won't work.

[crystal arch]

alrighttttt enough yall

[wary hatch]

Officers get to :fly !!

[crystal arch]

more to the point of wastelander mods

[solar finch]

Since we all agree how this will end.

[north storm]

Indeed, the issue is the divide and lack of cooperation between both groups

[crystal arch]

the biggest problem is frankly how in the world this is supposed to work

[swift falcon]

i refuse

[solar finch]

Why people are ignoring me?

https://tenor.com/view/cry-crying-cat-crying-cat-cry-why-gif-27571714

Return to the topic!

[trail burrow]

Whatever you say

[north storm]

this makes no sense because SC used to have a modified L4 card lol

[compact cypress]

no im js joking😭

[north storm]

but I am aware it is a joke

yes i know

[compact cypress]

i kneww

[crystal arch]

because not everyone actually agrees on it being infeasible

[north storm]

Gotta point it out though for certain people here

anyway

[trail burrow]

Just read what corpse said I’m out for dinner now

[solar finch]

This is sad...

Corpse?

You mean Corpsii?

[wary hatch]

he means Corpsii

[solar finch]

Crazy.

[compact cypress]

bru would u want tunky to have mod

[crystal arch]

heres the part im not exactly getting and maybe it was answered in the 1500 messages above (good lord), how exactly is sc even that biased

[north storm]

As I said earlier I am open to this idea, but it would need to be done in a trial run first

There is much which would need to be discussed with it, but the number one thing to avoid in this case is to make a third team of moderators

[crystal arch]

if anything ive moreso seen sc be more hard-hitting on aegis

than on wastelanders

[north storm]

And as I've said above, the reason for this is because two already do not work together well

If this was to be done, it needs to be fully integrated into one or the other

Or possible a joint venture but that could have separate issues

Absolutely no making a third mod team, it would not work

[wary hatch]

Even if this was added there would still be “activity” issues cause people have lives

[solar finch]

I don't know why it sounded like rats' experiments.

[wary hatch]

and there will always be a bias cause that’s human

[north storm]

This is not a solution to activity, as I said earlier it is only allowing for better coverage of the wasteland

[solar finch]

And my brain started to think about putting one member on each team on a box to cooperate with each other, and so on.

[north storm]

Activity is a separate beast to tackle

[compact cypress]

yes

there was a robang situation in roseweld

[jovial lily]

To be frankly honest wastelandere aren’t attached to the group at all and are basically civilians they shouldn’t have the ability to gain administrator permissions

[compact cypress]

and sc’s did not respond to help reqs

[jovial lily]

there would be a lot of mod abuse too

[solar finch]

Unless AMCS...?

We can give them a use.

[north storm]

AMCS is a no because they are a very small group of contractors

[jovial lily]

Even than it’s not worth the tackle giving waste landers admin

[north storm]

It would not work

[swift falcon]

why would there be a lot of mod abuse as long as the recruiting system is parallel to SC's ?

[jovial lily]

The system is fine as it is with who has admin

[solar finch]

50 50.

[crystal arch]

if (and this is a big if) this was implemented, how do you give wastelanders some incentive not to mod abuse

[wary hatch]

to add what would a “wastelander with mod perms who abuses it what would there punishment be? mod perms taken away?? Ban??

[jovial lily]

This suggestion is never getting approved anyway pretty sure it would have to go through Dylan and he would say no

[crystal arch]

truckmac does make a point, wastelanders arent really tied to the group

[jovial lily]

yeah

😭

[crystal arch]

so how do you tie them to abiding to rules on mod usage

[jovial lily]

literally how would promotion system work, raiding aegis?

[crystal arch]

i doubt theyd have a promotion system

[jovial lily]

it doesn’t make sense

at all

cool guy is scaring me

he been typing for a while

very scary commander

[solar finch]

Wastelanders are not like other border games, which can rank up by killing people.

[jovial lily]

the only trusted wastelanders with admin are probably devs

[solar finch]

Mhm.

[north storm]

How I would implement this system would be as follows:

Integrate the system into SC, making them official members in the discord and everything, they would go through the majority of the SCPA and receive stripped down versions of the guidelines focussed soley on moderation. Apart from not being in AEGIS, they would be official SC members with normal permissions, access to certain chats would be segmented however

OR

Create a new discord server and have both SC and Officer+ manage it, we would have a committee of representatives to discuss things with EQUAL NUMBERS on both sides. Much of the recruitment process and guidelines would probably be modified from SC's as SC's is quite frankly easier to adapt for wastelanders (Officer guidelines focuses much more on the discord, tranings, officer duties and such would be harder to adapt, same goes for the recruitment system)

Otherwise they would be overseen by representatives of both groups, possibly having their own rank system, overwatch, etc.

That's how I see it being done

[jovial lily]

would you want this suggestion implemented

[solar finch]

Seems like it.

[north storm]

I can't see it working if it were exclusively integrated into Officer+ as they are more exclusive (how would you adapt AOA to work?) and much more integrated into the core group functions

[north storm]

ehh it is possible but a lot of work so it is something which I would need to consider

[wary hatch]

more work for Officer+

[crystal arch]

the second option seems honestly the easier one to keep mutual understanding of actions taken

also this is why that thing i linked you to earlier shouldve just gone ahead rather than being shot down...

but i digress on that second point...

[jovial lily]

wouldn’t it need TOML/chairman to approve

[north storm]

yeah

[jovial lily]

it might require new admin levels

[solar finch]

For a new groups, yes.

[north storm]

This is something which can be accomplished easily

[jovial lily]

I don’t think it would be approved to be honest

[north storm]

new admin levels aren't required for new groups wdym?

[solar finch]

I meant for the ToML agreedment.

[north storm]

It's only if they have different permissions or you want to restrict what commands they want

You don't even need a group for admin perms anyway

As admin is not linked to group roles, it's given manually

[solar finch]

I meant to allow a new group...

Since we can't just create one.

[north storm]

ah I see nvm

[north storm]

Unlikely yeah

[jovial lily]

I wonder if we will ever stop using Adonis and have a custom administrator system

[north storm]

but it is merely a hypothetical at this stage anyway

[solar finch]

Another problem I see...

[jovial lily]

the amount of arguing in this thread earlier was crazy

[solar finch]

We need mostly a force economy reset.

Since some people have Octillions.

[north storm]

The second one is a bit of a double edged sword, It could either bring Officers or SC closer together or do the opposite. Overall it would be more beneficial from a cooperation standpoint though

[solar finch]

And the rewards we can give are kinda mid.

[north storm]

But yeah the only ways I see this working is either Integration into SC, or creation of a joint group with SC and Officer oversight (Using probably mostly SC guidelines and recruitment as I said because the Officer stuff is tailored more for their specific duties which is much less of an emphasis on in-game moderation)

[north storm]

yeah it was stupid

[jovial lily]

you can be so serious sometimes and than be the silliest person 😭

[north storm]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/925280007947960359/1476890745792368661/togif.gif

[jovial lily]

that reminds me

I need to feed my cats

Brb

[north storm]

And I don't want to come off as biased when I say that, I will reiterate this but the reason why I think integration into the Officer core would not work is because the Officer+ recruitment, guidelines, etc place much more emphasis on the Officer+ duties, most of which are not related to a wasteland mod team.

You could do it, but it would be a lot more work. You'd need basically new guidelines and a new recruitment system. It'd still be difficult with SC stuff, but I think it is overall more suited to be repurposed for a wastelander mod team as things like the SCPA could be modified to fit much easier, while AOA would need to be overhauled for it

Just explaining my reasoning, if anyone disagrees I would be interested to hear your points on the matter

[trail burrow]

I’d be willing to put that in

@north storm ^

[trail burrow]

@halcyon owl what do you think about this idea?

[halcyon owl]

Assuming they're going through the appropriate processes to get moderator permissions (similar to mods in AEGIS currently), then i think it's fine

being in AEGIS shouldnt be a requirement to be a moderator imo, as long as you're qualified

i dont really see any need in them being "trusted" as long as they have undergone proper training, and then are considered suitable for having said permissions (unless that's what trusted is meant to mean)

[robust raft]

trusted as in trusted to not use the mod in broken ways

[halcyon owl]

assuming u mean they've undergone the same stuff as other mods, then that makes sense ye

[trail burrow]

Yh ofc

[north storm]

?

put that in to what

the suggestion or

[trail burrow]

Yh

[north storm]

uh I mean that was mainly just for clarification purposes

[trail burrow]

What

[trail burrow]

Wdym

[glossy sparrow]

Great idea bud, but aegis are still haters

[trail burrow]

😂

It is a good idea, balancing the game out a bit

[compact cypress]

What would the mod cap be for wasties theb

how would u oversee the wasties w mod anyways

if it ever gets implemented

someone is for sure gonna mod abuse sooner or later

[halcyon owl]

you could really just say that for any mods currently

i think it'd all the be same, they'd just be wastelanders

in discord they'd get the same access as other mods, they'd just be wastelanders in-game

[crystal arch]

this is uh

joint div comms is kind of uh

for divisionals

but has moderation chats

[halcyon owl]

i mean, they dont need to be in div comms sure

[crystal arch]

also where do they fall in the priority level

for mod usage

[halcyon owl]

if this were to ever be implemented, i assume that'd be discussed then
likely similar to officers (assuming they are getting the same moderation permissions), but im not entirely sure

[crystal arch]

if they gain the same priority level as sc, then watch basically all aegis demand to have that same level of permission and we suddenly have a hundred different moderators battling for actions ingame

[crystal arch]

they should be below officers, officers need the moderation work more if theres no sc around

[halcyon owl]

why would they need it more?

assuming they have the same qualifications, i dont see why they wouldnt be able to assist in similar situations

which takes priority would be arbitrary if they have the same power and responsibilities (as mods)

[crystal arch]

officers are by far more qualified than a wastelander mod would be, no offense to said wasteland mods

[haughty gale]

there are no wastelanders you can reasonably trust

[crystal arch]

considering the years of experience that every officer has, including the entirety of AOA and AA staff

[crystal arch]

disagree, actually

[haughty gale]

examples

?

[crystal arch]

there are some, though the number is fleetingly few

[halcyon owl]

i dont really see the experience being a meaningful indicator of priority

for example, a newly administered sc would have higher priority over an officer, just because they're an sc

and with that in-mind, im not sure what the difference would be between said new sc and a wastelander who just finished passing some moderator program, again assuming they're both being trained the same in terms of being a moderator

[crystal arch]

sc has a higher priority because ingame moderation is literally their only duty

and because taking that priority would basically render their division defunct outside of calling some protocols and cuffing people around to posts

[halcyon owl]

true, though i still dont really see a wastelander moderator being lesser than that of an aegis moderator

either way, i think it's fair that a wastelander could be able to be a moderator, assuming they are qualified for the position

[halcyon owl]

and im not strictly speaking on new wastelanders, this could apply to those who've been in aegis for years, and simply left

[crystal arch]

less-so "wastelander vs aegis" more-so that between an officer and a wasteland moderator the officer is going to almost certainly be held to the expectation to moderate

whether the wasteland moderator is is dubious, but toml would most likely have words for an officer who neglected the server under the guise of "the wasteland mod has it"

[trail burrow]

This is what I’ve been saying for hours

[halcyon owl]

why would a wastelander moderator be held to a lesser standard than that of an aegis moderator 😭

they're both moderators and should be treated and expected as such

[trail burrow]

That’s what all the aegis people say they say what your saying they should be the same

[crystal arch]

because they arent actual moderators, theyre just people who filled out some mod exam and pinky promised they wont fuck around with mod, they will end up barely trained and abusive as fuck towards aegis under the guise of "countering the wastelander bias"

[trail burrow]

They are tho

[halcyon owl]

it never has to be that way though what?

[crystal arch]

all i keep hearing in this suggestion is that "oh they fill out a mod exam and they get mod"

this sounds like aa staff applications but with actual authority and moderation powers

[halcyon owl]

yeah i dont agree with that at all, it should be similar to what sc goes through in terms of moderation training at least

[trail burrow]

It’s gonna be like SC academy but for like less than 10 wastelanders

[crystal arch]

and which moderators do you put forward as having the community's trust

[trail burrow]

Wdym

[halcyon owl]

my belief is that it'd be something similar AOA, where they can be handpicked to join or sign up through an application

[trail burrow]

It would be like a one single application for people that have like 0 warnings stuff like that, trusted not trolling, the application would only come again once everyone quits I reacon

[subtle tapir]

was this just something for if no SC/Regcom are in game/available? i havent read anything here for ages

[trail burrow]

Nah

[trail burrow]

Like a wasteland moderator, can still raid

[subtle tapir]

so the wasteland sc equivalent

[trail burrow]

Yh

[subtle tapir]

yea im mostly against it then

[trail burrow]

Same punishments for abuse etc

[trail burrow]

Why’s that

[halcyon owl]

in the end i guess this isn't too much of a problem, and most wastelanders aren't really complaining about not being able to access moderation privileges

we already have plenty of mods, and with the new anti-cheat, exploiters are dealt with much easier than before

i like the idea of allowing wastelanders to also be able to become mods, but im not entirely sure if it's something critical enough to put the effort into being able to be made possible

[subtle tapir]

if everything is put in place and theres effective rules, guidelines, etc, then maybe. but communication between SC and what youre suggesting would have to be implemented somehow and i have a feeling it would cause problems, which could definitely be solved, but whether its absolutely needed or not idk

[subtle tapir]

purgare actually puts in work i cant lie

[trail burrow]

Obviously they are gonna be trained, everyone thinks that random wastelanders are just gonna be mods, there won’t be a need for fighting since they don’t have to communicate since the moderation efficiency will be much faster

[halcyon owl]

ye, dylan has done well with it

[subtle tapir]

obviously it wouldnt be random wastelanders, idk why people would think that

but how do you think would it improve moderation efficiency (in game)

[trail burrow]

Ik

[trail burrow]

Mhm

Ima take a think of how it could actually work, what it would be used for tmr

[halcyon owl]

alrighty, good chat then

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/807809192537882647/1085744167440887858/20210708-001-1.gif

[trail burrow]

I’ll send it to I in DMs and on here

U

Everyone says it’s gonna be hard to implement but it just won’t ngl

[halcyon owl]

coolio

[trail burrow]

😂

[edgy sentinel]

Hell nah

[trail burrow]

gg on ARD apps

[obsidian girder]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1350980612034527315/1492565254108876923/attachment.gif

[compact cypress]

co1 js joined and bros causing problems😭

@halcyon owl i like the wastelanders w mod idea tho, BUT i would rather it be given to fhe MOST trusted people and people who have been in good standing with game moderation for a long time and someone whos actly professional

[trail burrow]

What problems did I cause?

[compact cypress]

u guys shld also think abt putting a moderator tag

i think itd look fire

[compact cypress]

ok bud

[halcyon owl]

i'd just say it's fine if they just get the same training as other mods, like sc for example

[trail burrow]

Did he actually say this @obsidian girder

[compact cypress]

Id say more training than sc

cuz their wasties

their coverage is so wide in the wasteland, if s sc would mod abuse then itd js be in the border and itd be easy to find out

[halcyon owl]

i mean, !help requests exist

[compact cypress]

naw its chatgpted brosk

[halcyon owl]

also tracking too

:view

[trail burrow]

Is it?

[compact cypress]

but fr tho how many sc’s actly respond to help reqs nowadays

[halcyon owl]

i'd say the same works, idk ab having them do more just because they're wastelanders

[compact cypress]

naw

[compact cypress]

i mean i would trust u w mod

[halcyon owl]

usually they do, but they can be a little inactive at times

[compact cypress]

wait ur back in aegis

😭

[compact cypress]

nah bro

[trail burrow]

Would u trust me

[compact cypress]

there was a robang incident in roseweld for like

20 mins

[halcyon owl]

quite inactive*

[compact cypress]

5 sc online

no one responded to help reqz

😭

[halcyon owl]

damn 😔

[compact cypress]

nah

[trail burrow]

Meh

[compact cypress]

i mean i would trust ex sc

idk abt tunky tho

id trust @lone cargo w it

ex aia

[atomic marsh]

seems like more of an officer core issue im afraid

[atomic marsh]

unc arent u like ucomm

u can already reprimand them on both levels

[crystal arch]

uc/ucomm has no power

you should know this

[atomic marsh]

can confirm

both sides hate each other

[crystal arch]

toml is the only ones with power in this group and they never share

[atomic marsh]

while wasties hate both sides just as equal

[atomic marsh]

the time i was an officer and this time, the gap is quite big

a lot couldve changed

[foggy gulch]

wth did I do

[edgy sentinel]

If this were to EVER happen it would have to just be like a wastelander branch in SC

Bc who is holding the wastelanders with mod accountable

[north storm]

If only it was that easy

[bitter smelt]

Lag

[obtuse iron]

https://tenor.com/view/ishowspeed-my-mom-is-kinda-homeless-please-speed-i-need-this-tired-blow-gif-15401023925154467112

[strange hazel]

no

just no

[strange hazel]

real

https://tenor.com/view/emoji-with-gun-gun-anger-gif-25014825

[trail burrow]

🙂

[trail burrow]

Give it a tick @strange hazel

[strange hazel]

no

[trail burrow]

🙏

[strange hazel]

i don't like the idea

of moderative wastelanders

[trail burrow]

🙏

[strange hazel]

killing aegis

that can be absued

[trail burrow]

I don’t ever team kill on aegis

[drowsy viper]

brochacho

[trail burrow]

Good idea

[cloud mantle]

Never suggest again