Officer Core // Draconianism and Transparency

[flint frigate]

Officers have far too much unchecked power with far too few regulations. This is often shown in their overeager enforcement of perceived rules even when HICOM is perfectly fine with something and a little fun is being had.

A little fun

During the April Fools shenanigans the chat got to pinging Michal per #📢🌎global-shout message, where a TOML explicitly allowed the pinging. Officers then began to try and curtail this, and kpdestroyer said to chill. The chat generally chilled, with one exception, and yet despite this officers were giving out strikes to every person pinging Michal. kpdestroyer had to clear this up in chat that the chat flood just had to stop, because officers were giving out strikes for just a ping or two, and refused to pardon the strikes.

https://imgur.com/a/DwOXPaR

[ocean steeple]

I aint adding reactions

This was targetted personally!

[flint frigate]

uhhhhh

no comment on who this is about

[woven cove]

Can you name any other instances of the often shown overeager enforcement of perceived rules even when HICOM is perfectly with with something said

[flint frigate]

its sort of hard when you dont really have access to anything other than the strike messages in chat, once youre an officer it becomes somewhat apparent in some cases that it goes far

(clearly solution is to make funny funny ha ha channel open to everyone and make officer actions transparent to the community)

[woven cove]

I mean i could see #group-logs being public

[flint frigate]

which one is that one

theres like 3 iirc

[ocean steeple]

Yeah but

People could just use audit command

[woven cove]

Yea but the audit command doesnt save an extensive history

Like i think theres a question on the aoa app when it asks you when you got your rank

If people had access to that it would make it much easier to find out

[ocean steeple]

Ig

[flint frigate]

oh i see which one it is

based on the audit command comment

[ocean steeple]

Yeah

[flint frigate]

ye that seems like a good idea ngl

also would allow searching by peoples username and bringing up that full audit history

like sceptism said

[woven cove]

Yea

I dont see the other 2 ever going public though

Only that one

[ocean steeple]

I guess it would also bring use to the logs

for that

It's not like it's the most useful

[flint frigate]

if i recall the other 2 correctly it seems like it could be a good idea to loosen the restrictions on access

not public necessarily but like

a bit looser

[woven cove]

Why though

[marble moat]

i feel like this is something that AHRD would handle in the future when it actually gets running 🗣️

[flint frigate]

its been a while since trialing officer so i might be referring to the wrong one

[ocean steeple]

The other 2 logs wouldnt be changed

There's some logs that are bad

[flint frigate]

ooo wait

yeah no those ones actually very much no

[ocean steeple]

Yeah

[flint frigate]

i just got which ones those were

[ocean steeple]

If someone says smth]

Yeah

[flint frigate]

yes but the first one should be public and readable

[woven cove]

#group-logs yes #action-log #chat-logs no

[ocean steeple]

I love those ones

[woven cove]

I love #💡suggestions-old and #🐞bug-reporting-old

[ocean steeple]

Fr

Same

[flint frigate]

those are good yes

i especially love #💡suggestions-old

[obtuse root]

LOOOOL

[ocean steeple]

If it gets running smh

[marble moat]

true and real

[flint frigate]

tbf dough does seem to be making very good headway on it

[marble moat]

we shall see

[ocean steeple]

Yes

[flint frigate]

i could see it being started in like

a few months

[woven cove]

☠️

[flint frigate]

probably give some months for getting everything set up

[ocean steeple]

I can't wait to see EpsilonGone as an AHRD member

[flint frigate]

LOL

[ocean steeple]

Just for him to be promoted to UC and exiled

From it

[marble moat]

u get rank locked

he wont be able to get UC

[ocean steeple]

L

He's turning down PKSF UO AND UC

JUST FOR AHRD

[marble moat]

it do be like that

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[ocean steeple]

Well

As long as he removes noahjkl for being corrupt

[flint frigate]

its why i didnt put in the application, i realized what gone had bargained to get an interview once dough reopened them

[ocean steeple]

And EminentPiggy

It will be fine

[marble moat]

Yeah noah is pretty fat

stealing all the food

[ocean steeple]

Yeah

[ocean steeple]

Both of them

[obtuse root]

this is offtopic from ur post bu

it is dob going through his episode

respectfully he wont have the steam to keep it up

ive seen this cycle for the past 5 years

[flint frigate]

hm

[obtuse root]

ANYWAYYY

[flint frigate]

coded went through the cycle first

and now look

[marble moat]

we shall see how it goes this time, i suppose

[flint frigate]

anyways though

[obtuse root]

im all for transparency and would like a public strike channel

[marble moat]

that would be good

a public log perhaps?

[obtuse root]

not sure why the rules even changed to delete strike messages

[flint frigate]

on the actual topic of the post that one channel (overwatch console because im sick of trying to fucking side-speak it) should be opened up

[marble moat]

i think deleting strike messages makes sense in some cases (if it is nsfw, etc etc)

but otherwise unless it is in a channel like #😂aegis-memes or something perhaps just leave it if it does no harm

[flint frigate]

not a bad idea also but i think the rules would just have to end up as not deleting strike messages if i remember what else is in the strike logs

[marble moat]

or have a public channel that logs all strikes, from who, to who, and the reason

[flint frigate]

theres some vile stuff in there

[obtuse root]

in 2021 chairman became very adamant on moderators+ keeping clean chat histories so that could be why

in pursuit of a discord server partnership

[ocean steeple]

Most likely to protect Officer identities

Idk why

It's still obvious

[flint frigate]

i mean

yall are supposed to be accountable even moreso than the people youre moderating

its part of the job

[marble moat]

that makes sense, discord is very strict about that

[ocean steeple]

Anyways

Certain logs cannot be publicized

But I dont see why that one shouldnt

[flint frigate]

possibly if instead of the strikelogs there was a log channel where officers had to copy paste the user id and the reason

itd keep a public strike log without publicly making available the vile filth some people spew

[obtuse root]

thats just more documentation on the officer part which im all for accountability but officers are already plagued with shit

just a public auto log

[marble moat]

yeah i dont see why a log would hurt

just who was strikes, who striked them, and the reason

[obtuse root]

literally the vortex auto shiz if im remembering my dayz

[marble moat]

could also list their current number of strikes to so the user knows where they stand

[flint frigate]

the strike log exists its just that it has a bunch of stuff mixed in

that isnt the strike stuff

[marble moat]

i believe u are correct

i could check but eh to much work

[lament cedar]

Another one of these

[ocean steeple]

Yup

Another...

[lament cedar]

What are these reactions for

Removing their perms???

[flint frigate]

really goes back to when they striked people for protesting policerioting's ban

#🌐global message

[flint frigate]

mostly just

more transparency

a key idea that opened up was making overwatch-console public

[lament cedar]

FREE MA BOY

[flint frigate]

and making public strike logs

[lament cedar]

DOWN WITH CORRUPTION, DOWN WITH AEGIS, DOWN WITH THE AEGIS INTELLIGENCE AGENCY

[flint frigate]

lol i brought it on myself ig

[lament cedar]

Ye

[woven cove]

Sounds good in theory but whoever got striked can just go check who striked them and harass them

[violet furnace]

Harass = Ban too so...

Well not ban exactly, is a strike too.

Persisting lead to a ban.

[woven cove]

Well yes but ideally the striking officer wouldnt risk being harassed in the first place

[violet furnace]

Well, true. Like you're risking yourself to harrass an Officer, then they saw you as the evil one, when you told him to stop or something.

[marble moat]

yeah what frant said

then they get gone

[flint frigate]

the proper avenue is to go to a UC

[marble moat]

shrimple

[flint frigate]

theyre free to discuss it with the officer first but just tell them to take it to a uc and block them if they continue

i dont see officer harassment as much of an issue given the clear power imbalance between officers and the person being striked

[unique atlas]

Down with the officer core down with corruption!!!!!

[flint frigate]

Down with officer core down with corruption!!!!!

[violet furnace]

Hmm.

[zinc bridge]

https://tenor.com/view/why-persian-room-cat-guardian-but-why-trendizisst-anyaboz-gif-2156104475561014590

[violet furnace]

Well since the survey is now on. We have this feedback opportunity to let the people speak about this corruption. (Not the recent example, like other examples)

And if they don't have any to say, they can have a counter opinion about this.

[lean cape]

yeeaaahhh

it wuz meant to be a joke sooo

nothing really major at all, nothing deserving of a strike

especially when an announcement was made just because of the strikes being given out, lol

[violet furnace]

(Just the spammers who pinged like 50+ times)

[lean cape]

ehh, they were in on the joke ig

they can enjoy themselves, at least for a day

🤷‍♀️

[violet furnace]

Like yeah, but when they said to relax a bit, still was someone spamming at some point I needed to stop him.

As for me, I don't have problems if they ping.

[lean cape]

reasonable tbh

[violet furnace]

Since it was for the funs + April fools.

But limits are limits.

About the others who received strikes, hmmm... I feel they didn't deserve that. I could pardon them, but to do that, you must check slowly all the information (Depends on which person you'll pardon and what crimes he committed)

[flint frigate]

to be fair a certain officer should have started reversing the strikes they gave when it became evident that the strikes were based on permitted behavior

[red grail]

The fact the strikes still weren't reverted even after the announcement clarifying that it was fine is shocking

[violet furnace]

That will take time, but yeah. But going a bit further, there was another case instead of this one?

Since I'm curious.

[flint frigate]

just today there were multiple cases of strikes issued based on officers jumping the gun

[grand pagoda]

super

ur just

giving urself

less power

wyhen yopu get officer

smh

[flint frigate]

im not getting officer anyways at the current rate of promotions

[grand pagoda]

when

[flint frigate]

besides this doesnt give officers less power it just forces more transparency

[grand pagoda]

they the same thing dawg

[flint frigate]

opening overwatch console just makes the actions of moderators more transparent to the community they serve

[violet furnace]

At the current status you're correct, these days promotion system was slow.

[flint frigate]

that shouldnt be considered a bad thing regardless of who you are or what rank you are

[violet furnace]

But, it affects in general part.

[flint frigate]

if reducing the power of officers is something that needs to happen then let it happen, regardless of whether i become officer the day after it gets implemented

[red grail]

There needs to be a lot more transparency in here.

[violet furnace]

About our power, that's our job. The thing could be watch our actions from the upper ones.

[flint frigate]

which is why im not saying it needs to be reduced

[violet furnace]

Mhm.

[flint frigate]

im saying if thats what happens im not going to protest on the basis that im "limiting my own future power"

[violet furnace]

That would be crazy, I must admit.

[flint frigate]

thats a stupid argument for me or anyone else to make

[violet furnace]

Still, getting back to the point.

[flint frigate]

regardless strikes currently are issued as basically "shadow strikes" where all that is displayed to the community is that someone got a strike

and if the strike is done in overwatch console instead absolutely no one knows

[red grail]

Did the officer who wrongly gave out strikes get away Scott free or something?

[flint frigate]

correct, because officers protect their own

[red grail]

At the expense of the entire community

[flint frigate]

if anyone complains that the officers jumped the gun the usual reaction from UC+ is going to be "ok we'll just tell them not to do it again"

[violet furnace]

The strikes must be deleted to avoid harassment from someone to one of us. Showing the person who strikes you, could lead to major problems.

Which happened.

A lot...

[flint frigate]

if harassment happens direct them to a uc and block them

[red grail]

Wouldn't they get more strikes for harassing

[violet furnace]

The harassment is bannable even in the rules.

[flint frigate]

you already have the rules on your side about harassment in aegis chat and if it happens in dms blocks can prevent it

[violet furnace]

Yeap.

[flint frigate]

so harassment really can only happen with, at most not being voted the community favorite officer, which, oh well

[violet furnace]

Still, that's when the alts problem comes and a cycles starts.

[flint frigate]

so thats aia's job, block and repeat, but frankly thats a lot of effort to go to just to harass someone

[red grail]

I mean alts will always be a problem when issuing punishments

[violet furnace]

Even if an alt is a avenger one.

[red grail]

Someone would have to be really obsessive to do that 👀

[violet furnace]

And that one becomes a stalker.

And finally a hacker.

And I don't want to go further because I passed that.

[flint frigate]

again ill repeat though, officers end up with immunity for bad strikes

[violet furnace]

Going to that point.

Hmmm... I never saw that.

[flint frigate]

at most they get a talking to from a uc about "be patient"

officers in general get a lot of preferential treatment in fact

ive reported a couple, and from experience can say that there is every attempt made by the UC receiving the report to find some way to justify the officer's actions

[violet furnace]

For me, people DM me about that and I fix them, some like... erm... not in good manners, some like show me evidence and I fix it.

Kinda?

[woven cove]

if the strike is false it most likely gets removed

and then

the officer will be told to ensure their strikes are valid in the future

[flint frigate]

the strikes from today, where kp literally clarified that people shouldnt have been striked:

[woven cove]

i'll review them

[flint frigate]

if pardons were done they werent done as publicly as the original striking

which they very much should be just as public

[red grail]

What happens past that though? Do officers with repeat offenses get a strike themselves or anything, or are they told to just not do it again in the future again?

[flint frigate]

what is supposed to happen is that officers with repeat issues get officer warnings

[red grail]

I'm guessing that doesn't happen usually then.

[violet furnace]

I remember getting a self-strike one by accident. It was funny.

[flint frigate]

cant speak too much on that without reviewing it but its in #📢🌎global-shout, i dont think officers get warnings very often no, but that by itself could just mean nothing rose to the level of a warning

[violet furnace]

Well, in the time, some of use got warnings, as I read in shouts, but is weird. Like... It must be really bad to get one.

[red grail]

That gets announced in conferences right?

[woven cove]

kp also said this which heavily implied 'stop', the strikes were given after this and more warnings were said

[violet furnace]

But kp explained later about we can ping 1 or 2 times.

Not spam.

Even I answered to him.

[flint frigate]

implied stop, perhaps, but that was a message in aegis chat and there was no correction posted in #📢🌎global-shout

its also not the clearest way it couldve been put

[violet furnace]

#aegis message

Here.

[red grail]

Probably would have been better to post that in global chat since aegis chat moves pretty fast some times.

[flint frigate]

this yes

[red grail]

and can be easily missed

[flint frigate]

i seem to recall strikes for pinging michal at all

[flint frigate]

^

[violet furnace]

I think kp saw people getting striked and he needed to explain the situation.

Because even he said, it was for fun.

[flint frigate]

and at that point the officer (wont name because apparently harassment?) should have reverted their own strikes

[woven cove]

i pardoned three strikes

the rest will remain

[flint frigate]

^ ty

[violet furnace]

The guy I banned do not touch it.

[woven cove]

yea ik

u can see which ones i removed

[flint frigate]

the guy you banned was justified

he was spamming chat

thats a clear cut case

what isnt clear cut is strikes for singular pings

[violet furnace]

I'm really close to start opening a government at this rate.

https://tenor.com/view/elmo-burning-hell-gif-1773731824984430627

[flint frigate]

opening a government?

[violet furnace]

Crazy ideas.

Only me and my mind can understand some stuff I said.

Ok, any other issue experimented guys about us?

False bans?

False strikes?

And that's how I kill this chat.

Great.

[red grail]

Idk I'm just reading

[violet furnace]

If someone has new comments about something is not right, please put it below and we'll answer you.

Since after all we want to see which things consider us as "corrupts" and that.

[tawdry token]

They are also corrupt with raiders

[flint frigate]

idk ive noticed a preference towards raiders imo

like, a treatment of raiders better than the treatment of aegis

though thats more overall moderation and not necessarily officers

[tawdry token]

For example, I've seen people kill training team accidentally and they get serverbanned but when a training member kills a raider he justs warns him

But I dunno maybe my experience was old

[tawdry token]

Yeah

[flint frigate]

this is perhaps the notable exception ^

but generally i see more leniency towards raiders

ie: shall we bring up mo6ve for the 500th time

[jade rune]

this will be funny post

[flint frigate]

inspired by https://discord.com/channels/412291659347263498/1172607851135500388

[solid summit]

dont know if corruptions the right word for this case super, more the fact officers that are too happy to enforce rules to an unrealistic point @flint frigate

still think auto logs could be public only issue is harrasement

i saw the title and thought this was gonna be some exposure document but no its just another case where an officer is too strike happy

in this case i can definitely see where confusion could of been, but its def an issue with officers that some are very strike happy

[sly hazel]

i bet this @ocean steeple was the one who said ‘ermm actually!’ and striked all over

[runic pier]

theres no real way of stopping corruption in moderation

u can reduce it

but u cant completely stop it

aegis always had problems with moderation

with many false bans, false strikes and false warns

so hopefully moderation team can be more trasnsparent

[violet furnace]

🤔

[smoky ridge]

tilte of the suggestion is a tad wrong

[runic pier]

its true

[violet furnace]

Well, I can't say "corruption" since of that happens too, people will be promoted like popcorn by transaccion from the back.

[solid summit]

corruption isnt the right word for super’s complaint

[runic pier]

its more of incompetence

[violet furnace]

Yeah there!

[solid summit]

over-zealous, over-reacting, harsh, draconian all fit it better

• incompetence

[violet furnace]

Hahaha!

[runic pier]

yea

most of the officer core arent all that incompetent or bias

so thats still good

[smoky ridge]

emotion

[violet furnace]

For a moment I was reading a magic spell, but is the truth in some part.

[runic pier]

but some decisions made by them are questionable which is proven in this feedback

[smoky ridge]

people aren't rational

and u cant be

[solid summit]

some officers are over-eager to punish people when verbal warnings fit better

i have verbally warned new players about saying chairmans name for other officers to go and strike them because they wanted to which is er not good

punishing isnt always the best result especially with new players best example being saying chairmans name

we should be educating and informing if possible, not jumping to “sorry bud heres a strike”

[violet furnace]

If we're not rational... We could be considered as AIs. (Even AIs are more comunicative, no joke)

[smoky ridge]

❎

@solid summit for things as basing as pinging chairman/saying his name you'd still strike

and you need to

u tell them to read the rules after

[violet furnace]

About D - word, there's no return about that.

People gets insta striked, somehow?

[solid summit]

pinging is death

d word is an overreaction normally

its legit in officer guidelines saying new players should be verbally warned not striked at first for saying name @smoky ridge

so a petty argument could be made about how its techinally not following guidelines but thats 🤓

[smoky ridge]

not really enticed to following an outdated document

&

[solid summit]

not the officer guidelines fuck i mean punishment guidelines which is up to date

[smoky ridge]

what

[solid summit]

its in #📑resources

[sly hazel]

is this a describe yourself session

jkjk

[runic pier]

better than not following guidelines at all

[solid summit]

yes

i sleep but my point is officers are a bit too strike happy especially with newer players on certain rules, it only leaves a bad taste with newer players

shouldnt be jumping always straight to striking sometimes

[smoky ridge]

we could continue said argument ngl

[solid summit]

i think its a useless one

[smoky ridge]

since i just took a look again and they're talking about new members with 🥬

and we aren't talking about the same situation tbf

[solid summit]

in my mind i mean people who joined within the day who would have that

[smoky ridge]

i'm talking if an intiate/operative pings/says the chairman's name while you're saying with this

yesyes

[solid summit]

pings bad

simply saying name and its ur first day shouldnt result in a beating imo

saw a dude who joined the aegis discord for the first time ever 10 minutes in get jumped for saying chairmans name and got striked like 2-3 times because he had said it multiple times

[violet furnace]

New players can have a chance (Except if that one is just a troller).

[solid summit]

execute trollers

glory to aegis

[violet furnace]

If that's a old one, like nope.

Even someone tried to report me, when he's a FA.

[solid summit]

i sleep

[violet furnace]

Yeap.

[solid summit]

my arguments above if anyone pings me ill continue when i awake

[violet furnace]

Ok.

[elfin raven]

How is this a case of corruption? I understand making suggestions for things you perceive to be an issue but surely some care can be taken before throwing around strong allegations like this

The original post doesn't even give a suggestion to the stated issue.. had to go through the chat to see what people want as a solution

I'll give a detailed response later tonight but in the meantime if anyone that's seemingly falsely striked regarding this issue hasn't received a pardon, DM me

[flint frigate]

cor·rup·tion
noun
1.
dishonest or fraudulent conduct by those in power, typically involving bribery.

doesnt involve bribery but issuing a false strike is dishonest and fraudluent behavior, and officers absolutely have power. further, assuming youre using the definition of corruption that requires some sort of coverup, another officer stood by while these strikes were being issued and didnt object or raise any issues with it

[flint frigate]

the fact that you can say "another" indicates serious problems with either the punishment guidelines or the professional judgement of the individual officers (who, most likely, are still officers)

[flint frigate]

(erm acktually see above, but..) sort of yes, sort of no, in a way its a strong word but its not necessarily wrong to say that there is a certain leniency afforded to officers regardless of whether they violated the guidelines or even did something that was absolutely out of pocket

[sly hazel]

bro really spelled it out for the mf 🥶 we passing the spelling bee with this one 🗿

[flint frigate]

its the dumbest shit ever, dylan dylan dylan, there

[flint frigate]

i mean i can change it to Draconianism and Transparency but the title isnt really the problem here

ill also bring up, people asked the officer in question in chat to rescind the strikes and they didnt, despite that it was made clear that the strikes were in error

its a problem that it takes a feedback thread with 200+ messages (at the time sceptism offered to start pardoning) to get action taken against the strikes

[smoky ridge]

can u give more exemples

[elfin raven]

This is neither dishonest nor fraudulent, it's a simple mistake anyone can make, and it's been rectified by the procedures of accountability that exist. Hardly corrupt, and most certainly not the entire officer core. It's an incident in which the officer needs to be reprimanded and informed of the correct way to act, nothing more. Had it been a case of corruption we'd be looking at a removal

Also what about that situation would really change if you had access to strike logs? I'm confused there

[flint frigate]

fair, doing rn

Officer Core // Draconianism and Transparency

[runic pier]

more of incompetence tho

rather than corruption

[smoky ridge]

proud probably wanted to calm people down or smth, dunno wasn't there, since the strikes were forgiven, it's not incomptence, if it's a repeated issue then yes you can classify it as so, but some u cannot just base urself off 1 example imo

[tawdry token]

Oh yea reminds me of that time an officer was gonna ban me and ka6noo for camping reactor during training even tho we set reactor power to 0 XD

He said that we are attempting meltdown

Another example of incompetence

[smoky ridge]

officers aren't taught how reactor works

[tawdry token]

But still before saying that maybe ask the ard

[flint frigate]

you still have yet to retract the threat made to bash my skull in (granted it was before officer)

[tawdry token]

The lights were legit off

[smoky ridge]

if ur still onto that i think i gave an apology

[flint frigate]

this is a good idea (some ard are still learning, its a complicated reactor)

[flint frigate]

im not really on it, it was a while ago (but no, you didnt, an officer talked to you but the message remains in subdiv comms)

[elfin raven]

There's an argument to be made that this is hardly draconianism either but I'm pretty tired of arguing about the suggestion title.

So instead i ask again, how would this situation have been any different if the public had access to strike logs like you propose

[smoky ridge]

yes i did

https://discord.com/channels/@me/1064999836451098684/1113514859401842728

[flint frigate]

unknown

[runic pier]

do strikes even get logged with proof

[smoky ridge]

this is my dms with you

[violet furnace]

For me, raiders ask me about if I'm gonna host or not, if I host they say "Ok, I will do another stuff" and that. If no, they just continue. I remember one time a Raider was doing Melt and he stopped since he asked me about that situation.

[flint frigate]

oh yes u did my apologies

[smoky ridge]

yes we do

thats y we often react with a ⭕ or ❌

to avoid another mod punishing twice

[violet furnace]

I think the reaction was 🔴.

I never saw the X or the O.

[flint frigate]

the extent to which false strikes are given can be more transparent to the community, and it also gives a username for people to bring up concerns of misconduct about

not to mention when non-officers try to find examples of misconduct its sorta hard when the logs are officer-only

[flint frigate]

that doesnt really address the proof aspect of the question

[smoky ridge]

wgy

why

[flint frigate]

theoretically its easy enough to search logs until you find the offending message but its not really proof attached

the strike itself just says "pinging chairman", not "pinging chairman - proof link"

which i think is what stream was getting at

[violet furnace]

Hmmm.

[smoky ridge]

other mods often check what you do

an example you can see is #📃ecoban-paperwork

but we mostly do this with everything really

what an individual officer can often do is punish then ask if it was the right decision

people aren't perfect

[runic pier]

so its basically a do first and then ask questions later

[elfin raven]

The general public doesn't need to scrutinize every move an officer makes. If an individual is striked, and they feel it was falsely done, they can very easily approach a UC or even ToML, who can look into the situation and act accordingly. The system of accountability is in place, and is sound. If officers were in charge of officers I'd agree that external accountability is needed, but that is not the case here. Then there's also AHRD

[runic pier]

ahrd is like

[elfin raven]

Even in the case that prompted this thread, had someone bothered to DM a UC it probably would've been resolved in minutes

[flint frigate]

ahrd isnt a real suggestion here, they require going through the full chain of command no matter what (personal experience) and there are times when its not exactly easy to go to a UC because i can reference at least one incident in which a TOML then outed a reporter in front of others

[smoky ridge]

thats ic cases

[elfin raven]

If the public had access to logs you'd still be outing yourself by making a report so what's your point there? But either way, one person having one incident does not mean UC+ cannot be trusted to keep reports private

[smoky ridge]

ahrd cases are different

[runic pier]

what do ahrd do anyways

ahrd just seems like a mascot of IC

[smoky ridge]

like keeping it short,

AHRD is the step before IC

if cases aren't resolved in AHRD they're migrated in IC

(mostly due to sensitive information or futher need for investigation and the intervention of an IC member)

[flint frigate]

except thats the whole point, the whole "the officers know what theyre doing" is what leads to officers being overeager and striking as soon as they think they see something

[elfin raven]

Huh? What I said was there's a system in place to ensure mistakes are rectified and the officer is reprimanded, and that giving the public access to logs adds nothing to the process except extra noise. How'd you come to the conclusion that my response was "the officers know what they're doing"...?

[violet furnace]

Well, there's some ocassions we need to check to know if that's true or not ( I can't say all, because I don't know how the others act in those situations). But going into the point, sometimes I understand we have incidents and I know some are kinda weird and repetitive. Is hard to identify at time which are unfair for most of them (Like for example the new ones). Even some Officers (Including me) makes some mistakes in the process, like I said one time. But when that happens, most of the cases people show me the all migthy...

Proof.

[smoky ridge]

^

[flint frigate]

the general public doesn't need to scrutinize every move an officer makes

based on your response i assume it wasnt your intention to imply that the general public cant be trusted and that only the officers should be able to say "officer decision bad", but that is how that statement came across (at least to me personally)

[elfin raven]

My intention is to imply that the general public doesn't need to scrutinize every move an officer makes because the systems in place work just fine in correcting the odd issue or two that pop up

[flint frigate]

im not necessarily sure anyones really double checking the site control operative testing out their shiny new mod in #📃ecoban-paperwork, in a similar vein that i doubt officers are double checking every strike in existence

[smoky ridge]

then idk what to tell u

[violet furnace]

If they tell me, I can.

[smoky ridge]

if u dont trust us

thats ur issue

[violet furnace]

I have even an example.

[smoky ridge]

but we do our thing, and check it out on like a daily basis

[violet furnace]

Like one time, I banned someone by NSFW, but then people communicated with me and talked about the situation, searched, grabbed IDs, and even saw the pictures to get into a conclussion.

And the person got unbanned and the others 3 banned by faking identity and harrasing people.

[smoky ridge]

???

fran im not following

[violet furnace]

Is an example.

Kinda?

[smoky ridge]

i dont understand

[runic pier]

ngl i expected this thread to have been closed like a few hours ago

[flint frigate]

i expected it to have been locked by someone by now

[runic pier]

yea

[violet furnace]

I'm on mobile, my explanation is not the best here.

[runic pier]

considering like

[smoky ridge]

plus being real with u issues with SC, or any mod rarely happen and are dealt with the same day

[smoky ridge]

[elfin raven]

Im gonna close it once the original poster is satisfied, or at least understands why this will not be implemented

until then i have no problem having a discussion

[runic pier]

if only thats the case for every suggestion 😔

[elfin raven]

its the case for any suggestion that has to do with hicom

development, we cant control

the edating thread for example, we do listen to the public, just that the public is not always as right as they believe they may be

[violet furnace]

For me, I want to know if others got this kind of problems too (If they put an example).

Because I want to hear the mayority.

[runic pier]

oh right that edating thread

forgot that existed tbh

[elfin raven]

there's a few good suggestions that've led to changes

[smoky ridge]

thats not really good imo

[elfin raven]

that's the only one i really remember, not that i was in favour of it

[flint frigate]

anyways i acknowledge that the post may have come off a bit...strong? but its not like the problem isnt there, and ill circle back just a bit to where you mentioned a single incident doesnt mean UC+ cant keep reports private, but frankly if even one incident occurs that is a major problem, given that there are 10 (11? 12? ive lost track but its something like that) tomls and one of those select few in the highest echelons of this group that cant be trusted not to out a reporter

[violet furnace]

Well, different opinions is good to hear.

And as I said, mobile! Some words are not what I meant to say.

[flint frigate]

theres not exactly a check on toml power (other toml?) given that there are exactly two people above them, of which unless the issue is severe neither dough (the entirety of the IC) nor dylan is likely to intervene

[elfin raven]

I don't know the incident you speak of, but unfortunately perfection cannot be guaranteed, not even with ToMLs. A look at the ones that were removed in the past year will tell you that not even ToML are perfect

[smoky ridge]

i told u that other mods check on what u do

dunno bout ic

[elfin raven]

ToMLs can to an extent act as a check to other ToMLs, yes. Feel free to approach one you trust if you see an issue. And IC + dylan above us. Its not perfect, but it is usually enough

[flint frigate]

i remember one specific and a couple discharges, but the one i remember was for ignoring marshal, so i sure hope that isnt the threshold for IC taking note

[smoky ridge]

hate club:

[flint frigate]

hate club of whom in this instance

[violet furnace]

Well, I don't know who that one is so...

[elfin raven]

it was the case that got scripted and all of them banned

[flint frigate]

oh

yeah that was a while ago tho wasnt it

the most recent one afaik is toby for negligence

[elfin raven]

yep

[smoky ridge]

no

its alex

[flint frigate]

he left voluntarily

[smoky ridge]

☠️

[flint frigate]

im talking removals

[violet furnace]

Alex he said he steps down by himself, as I know?

[flint frigate]

like where ic actually goes in and deranks someone

[smoky ridge]

you know he was gonna get removed

but other than that

[flint frigate]

idk i think he caught some flak but iirc his offenses were still being argued about as to legality and allathat

[smoky ridge]

coded made a shout about it

[elfin raven]

I doubt he would've lasted long had he stayed

but yeah if we're done here I can lock

[smoky ridge]

as they had decided that it did not infrigue law but

[smoky ridge]

it's always best if they don't do so, as it means aegis has somewhat of a good situation

aegis is a democracy and democracy has it flaws

i could relate it to political situation of france, but anyone trying to completly cut ties with things to be as fair and democratic is def isn't perfect

[elfin raven]

its a democracy unless you're the chairman

[smoky ridge]

change can alwasy be brung

^^

[flint frigate]

i can dm you the incident if youd like but i wont bring it up in detail in public chat, otherwise i understand the general reason this wont be acted on (even if i disagree with the idea that there is a perfect system for officer checks and balances)

[elfin raven]

if it needs looking into you can DM me about it, even if it concerns another toml

[sweet skiff]

i have no idea if this post is being sarcastic or being serious

[sly hazel]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1099719336207319162/1224384244340752577/caption.gif?ex=661d4baf&is=660ad6af&hm=16b49474511f69b2806cb16746b0df9fb135d83c69c36b110d216b171c9b59d0&

[elfin raven]

I spent an hour replying to this it better be serious..