balance-feedback-discussion

[opaque beacon]

lol

I posted it in general just fo u @dusky surge 🥺

[dusky surge]

okay

[opaque beacon]

lol

[dusky surge]

it's still pretty useless feedback but y'know, at least it's in the right chat

[opaque beacon]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-meme-black-guy-cries-sad-man-thank-god-for-my-reefer-hood-news-gif-24902056

I have an rx580 with an i5 9600k and I have to put all my settings on low but my AA on high and the view res to like 50 to get somewhat smooth fps

https://tenor.com/view/patrickpain-patricksomuchpain-patrickfleas-spongebobpain-spongebobsomuchpain-gif-18151897

[hexed sorrel]

I get 62 on high settings

[azure crescent]

can these people actually stop fucking complaining about performance in balance feedback

[dusky surge]

@meager timber carno isnt a pack predator and shouldn't be

it has small packs for a reason

[primal folio]

I know many people who have insanely expensive pcs and the game still runs like shit. Game needs optimization right now, more than any of this other garbage timmy keeps whining about wanting. Imagine trying to defend how horribly optimized this game is and blaming people for their pc specs. lol'd. Anyway. Balance feedback. Let's go.

I've been trying to play carno the way it's meant to be played, but what you've done with his hunger rates make it nearly impossible without being constantly starved.
I only play solo carno. Stick to treelines and bushes to stay hidden. Never ride valiantly into the open fields like 95% of idiot carnos.
Anyway, I'm pretty much always starving because carnos need to eat ENDLESSLY.
Only issue I have with them so far. Everything else feels fine. I've noticed timmy whining about utahs being too much to deal with now, but they're wrong and have no idea how to play. Carno shouldn't be taking on packs of utahs anyway. Carno gameplay is ambush based. But that's not possible with the way you have diets designed right now.

[urban briar]

Little Timmy is tired of encountering at least 10 utahs anywhere he goes lol

[primal folio]

Yeah and when they botch utah pounce again, everyone will be carno and they can whine about that again.

[urban briar]

Carno isn't even unbalanced imo it feels really good to play rn

[primal folio]

Agreed entirely. I just want them to look at hunger rates somewhat

Solo carno life shouldn't be constantly looking for food. If anything, I should be looking for less food because I'm not megapacking with a bunch of other carnos lol

[urban briar]

I think hunger rates are abysmal. They don't want afk growing but what it translates to is no afk at all. And teno thirst rate makes him the thirstiest ho on the island.

[primal folio]

^^ yep, I just noticed teno thirst rate the other day. It's nutty

[golden coral]

So.. you're playing carno like a forest critter instead of the plains critter it's supposed to be, and that's fine? I.. don't think you quite comprehend how a carno is supposed to live and play all that much.

[urban briar]

Wandering into open fields especially center is a great way to get pounced.

[golden coral]

You're meant to be in the open fields, that's the terrain a carno should excel in.

[primal folio]

I'm playing it as an ambush predator, which is exactly what it is. Carnos aren't supposed to run into open fields. Freaking lol'd. The only time I'm in an open field is when I'm hiding in a bush, stalking something.

[urban briar]

You ambush from the tree lines into the fields. Not waltz into fields expecting a meal

[golden coral]

No it's not an ambush predator. It's supposed to run in open fields yes, that's what carnos do.

[primal folio]

Exactly

[dusky surge]

carno is better at lurking at the edges of forests and plains and sprinting out at unsuspecting animals

it hunts primarily IN the plains, yes, but it still utilises the forests

[primal folio]

This is why most carno players are pretty bad I guess. They think they're land sharks or something. lol

[golden coral]

Ah yes, having an understanding of how something is supposed to be means someone is bad.

[dusky surge]

people say carno isnt an ambush predator, yet I've found playing it as a pursuit predator results in far less fruitful hunts than an ambush hunter

[urban briar]

The moment a carno announces itself, gets attacked and bled out, they cry that carno is bad. But when you play it right, carno can still get a lot done.

[primal folio]

Yep. Every carno who runs around willy nilly in open fields is usually dead pretty quick. Carno packs never last long. I survive longest when I play safe, ambushing from tree lines and bushes.

[dusky surge]

also, i've found i die to carnos most when they decide to actually try and ambush me

[golden coral]

See, that's entirely against the whole idea of being out and about and all that. Does it work, sure, does it make sense. No not in the slighest.

[dusky surge]

most carnos i die to, i dont see before its too late

[primal folio]

those are good carnos

what do these guys think the ram ability is for? LOL

[golden coral]

And that's a balance issue, since you're basically taking the critter that should be in the open plains and making it bad at being there, due to.. reasons.

[primal folio]

it's very clearly ambush based, because people see and hear a carno charging miles away

[golden coral]

Well, charge is not good for ambush, that much is clear

[short spire]

Carno is literally meant to be an ambush predator lmao.

• high speed
• high burst damage
• low turn radius
• low bite force
  It sucks in sustained fights but it can pull off an ambush really well

[primal folio]

that's why you hide, then ram. That's why the best carno players follow this strat.

[short spire]

Charge is totally meant for ambush, hide in the treeline then charge out at the opportune time

If the enemy knows you’re coming charge is pretty useless

[primal folio]

^Exactly. You keep running around in open fields. I'll be that one carno hiding in a bush, ready to ram you. 😉

[golden coral]

Sounds pretty much like the opposite to me. And charge is not meant for ambush, or well, it can be, but it's not good for it, because of the startup and all.

[dusky surge]

they use the plains for long sightlines and easy manoeuvrability. They eat in the plains, their prey is in the plains and they're very mobile in the plains and capable of seeing larger threats to quickly escape. They rarely go too far into forests due to the difficulty they find traversing them, but they use the outskirts for stealth. By all means, they are plains predators, but they are also ambush

[golden coral]

You'll never land it, because charge is so easy to avoid ^^

[primal folio]

I land it quite regularly, but you do you land shark. 😉

[dusky surge]

if you can see it coming, yes

[short spire]

Which is why you do it when the enemy isn’t aware you’re there…

[golden coral]

If you don't, that's on you being pretty blind.

[dusky surge]

or the carno ambushed you well

[primal folio]

this guy is a brick wall. I'm out. Carno is an ambush predator. Rework hunger and it's in a great spot.

[dusky surge]

people hate the idea of carno being an ambush predator so much they literally cannot accept that ambush is a viable gameplay style on it

[golden coral]

Says the person failing to provide any solid arguments. Sure, I'm wrong when I have a better understanding of things, if you say so. :p

[primal folio]

Yep they just want to run out into the field and go chompa chompa chompa chompa

[dusky surge]

the highest success rate i have gotten as a carno and the highest killrate carnos get against me are with competent ambushes

[short spire]

No you just refuse to change your mind when presented with solid arguments

[golden coral]

Not at all, we've gone through this. Having to add time to the attack and all, does not make for a good ambush method.

[dusky surge]

except it literally has worked countless times in ambush and far less running around and biting aimlessly, so it really doesn't speak wonders about your proposed playstyle for it

[short spire]

The best way to pull off a successful hunt is to ambush a target with a charge, and bite them while you’re stunned, giving you a significant health advantage if it doesn’t outright kill them

[golden coral]

Not at all. I just understand what an ambush is. You're basically just saying "carno should be an ambush hunter" while I'm explaining that carno is supposed to be able to be out and about and all.

[short spire]

Carno literally sucks in sustained fights

[primal folio]

I've seen how you operate in this discord, and how you never listen to anyone else, so not worth the effort to convince you. Keep on land sharking. I'll be the one waiting in the bushes for you. 😉

[golden coral]

Just because it works due to people not paying attention does not mean the mechanic is good for it, I've explained this.

[dusky surge]

its not a mechanic, its a playstyle

[short spire]

But I’m sure charging works so much better when people have already seen you? Lol

[dusky surge]

how the fuck does one land charge against an animal that already sees it?

[golden coral]

I do listen, when someone actually has some reason and understanding. You can't convince when you lack proper arguments. "Land shark", because an animal meant to be in the open should clealy not be able to be so, according to you.

[primal folio]

i think he's trolling, or being intentionally obtuse. It's very obvious that charging someone when you're hidden makes sense. lol

[short spire]

Yeah it’s probably bait

Ima go shower this argument is going in circles

[golden coral]

Ah yes, because I understand that a carno needs a certain distance to land a charge, and thus .. simply do not let that happen? :p

[primal folio]

Anyway, fix carno hunger decay rates, plzkthx. 🙂

[dusky surge]

so... what you're saying is... if you see the charge coming... it's ineffective

so its an ambush tool

[golden coral]

You're saying carno should not be able to be in the open, which makes no sense for the carno

[dusky surge]

literally no one has said that

[golden coral]

What I'm saying is, that due to distance, it's not an effective ambush tool.

[dusky surge]

no one is making huge blanket statements like carno should not be in the open at all

[golden coral]

And yes, Lynz up there did earlier

[dusky surge]

what tool is it then

[primal folio]

Nope, I didn't. Just because you struggle with reading comprehension. No one else here does

[golden coral]

Good question, not a very useful one honestly. Or well, useful in pairs/pack when you can distract.

[dusky surge]

no he didn't? He said the style of simply running at prey in the wide open was generally less successful

[golden coral]

Maybe it was the other one, but one of you did. And you could stop projecting anytime you know ^^

[golden coral]

...

[dusky surge]

"runs around willy nilly" does not mean "does not deserve to be in the open ever"

[primal folio]

Yes, that quote isn't what you think it is. Like I said, reading comprehension.

[golden coral]

It kind of does, because he's saying carno should not be able to be out and about in the open, when it's the one critter that should if anything

[dusky surge]

it means that carno which makes its presence visible and known will see less success than an ambush hunter

[primal folio]

LOL NO. Please stop making up your own weird assumptions about the meaning of my statements. I never said carnos should never be in the open. wtf lol

[golden coral]

Ambush wasn't even mentioned back there but okay :p

[golden coral]

... ?

By all means, if you say "carnos arent supposed to run into open fields" and "the only time Im in an open field", that does imply that you don't think carnos should be roaming the open plains

[primal folio]

Yeah I really can't with you lol. You genuinely don't seem to understand what I'm saying, my guy. That second quote is also not saying you're never supposed to be in the open.

[dusky surge]

i've seen so many videos of successful carno mains playing as ambushers and far less of carnos getting kills the old fashion "run and click" method. Almost every single well done kill I see from a carno has their prey distracted or unaware of their presence. That's ambush

[primal folio]

You do understand that something can be both an ambush predator while 'controlling' the fields, but not being an idiot running around in the open constantly? lol

Like, carno playstyle is not, here's your carno megapack hanging around center, running at things that come towards them! That's not how carno was intended to be played

[dusky surge]

in the creation trailer we literally see a carno utilising camouflage to attack and kill a pachy hatchling lmao

it attacks from the forest and runs into the open for the kill

[primal folio]

ikr!? i don't understand this guy lol

[golden coral]

Yes. But the point was more so that a carno should be out and about, and be able to be so. A carno in open plains is where it should be the most dangerous and all that. And just because something can ambush, does not mean it's well designed for it, which is my second point. You're all insisting carno is an ambush predator, and I take issue with it due to the charge not being good for it. Is it doable, oh sure. But that's not the same as saying it's meant to do that, or that it's good for it.

[golden coral]

Ah yes, the disney dinosaur thing xD

[dusky surge]

???

[golden coral]

Now you seem to be the ones struggling with comprehension. There's a difference between being able to ambush, and being good/designed for it.

I've seen trikes ambush rexes in legacy, does not mean trikes are meant to ambush stuff.

You're saying carno is an ambush predator, arguing that it's doable, which sure it is. I never said you can't ambush or that people wont fall for it, or anything like that. But I'm saying that's not how it's supposed to be really, due to the charge requiring startup and distance, thus making it rather easy to avoid, even if the carno starts out hidden, as long as you pay some form of attention. The same really goes even if there's two or more of them, you can still dodge them.

[dusky surge]

Ambush is not a super linear term of "you have to be entirely unseen the whole time through". Distractions, animals unaware or predicting where an animal will be looking are all valid methods of ambush. Carno capitalises on this as once the prey is rammed, they often take huge amounts of damage and are rendered defenceless, allowing for carno to shift into a more aggressive playstyle without worrying about their prey tanking a bunch of their hits and carrying on.

It has a tool that rewards it for getting real close without being seen

[primal folio]

So your issue is you don't think carno is designed to be a good ambush predator? Well, to that I'd say you're wrong. I see plenty of extremely skilled players proving you wrong on the regular. Feel free to look 'em up. It is though. Carno is NOT meant to be played where you run around in the open, waiting for dinos to come at you.
You make a kill in the field, you go hide in a bush, wait for some silly utah to come eat the corpse, then boom. Ram him. Like Mr Troodon said, you're taking 'ambush' to the extreme I think.

[golden coral]

Yes, my issue is that it's not designed to be a good ambush predator. Just because you can pull it off, does not change the mechanic. My point is that carno is meant to be in the open, to a carno, an entirely open field should be ideal, rather than having things in the way and so on. And yes, I do have a stricter definition of ambush, see deino for a proper example.

[dusky surge]

A trike ambushing a rex is not the same as the "prey" in this case can simply escape via speed or fighting back. The ambush doesn't really work because it's not very lethal, and the animal in question can quite easily survive, although they'll probably get a scare. In carno's case, charge CAN be lethal against its prefer prey and often is, and thus, works far better as an ambush tool.

[golden coral]

I have no doubt that carno players pull it off, but considering how the charge works, I'd say that's more down to the targets not paying that much attention.

[golden coral]

I meant more so that if we just count ambushing as "getting to someone unseen and hitting them", then any playable can do that.

[dusky surge]

The core idea of ambush predator is waiting for your prey item to literally not be paying attention

[golden coral]

Not quite.

[dusky surge]

A herrera is useless as an ambush predator if its prey scans the trees, a deino is useless if the prey notices blood around and in the water or the stench of meat from the river, so on. Attention is literally the core way to counter an ambush predator

The idea is that it is often too tedious to scan everything, or something else can (and will) capture your attention and create an opening

And this is when the ambush predator strikes

[golden coral]

Yes and no, hiding spots would be the main thing. Scanning does not help if there's nothing there to see really.

Which is what I mean, it's not so much running up to stuff, but letting them come to you. In which case the charge does not work, due to requiring minimum distance and movement and all that.

Meanwhile, deino, or utah pounce, can be done at impact, thus, you don't have to reveal yourself before the attack much if at all.

[azure crescent]

What type of predator is carno to you erik?

From this discussion I can tell you dislike the idea of carno being an ambush predator for some reason, so I’d like to see your take on it

[golden coral]

Pursuit I would say. It's a critter who is, or should be, undisputed in open grounds due to speed and all, and with, as someone did mention, lower biteforce, a critter that will run down the smaller stuff if it shows up in the open plains. To me carno should be the whole "roam around in the plains, and run down anything smaller that didnt have the good sense to see you and stay hidden", more or less. It's not so much that I dislike carno being an ambush predator, merely that I disagree with the idea that it's well designed for it, due to earlier mentioned reasons of how charge works. To me, the main point of an ambush predator is to sit in one spot and wait until target gets next to you, then "reach out" and get it, more or less. Deino is an excellent example, herrera.. might be if it can just drop down on stuff that stands beneath it, and so on. Carno, due to requiring the start up, which is noisy and well, carno isn't a small and quiet animal, is thus not ideal for ambushing. It being doable is, well, sure, but then like I said, I've seen trikes sneak up on rexes.. there's a lot of things doable in this game due to how people play :p

[azure crescent]

To be fair you can just click charge right before you touch your prey

[golden coral]

You can yes, and you should, since no reason to charge from a distance unless you really need the speed boost. But you do need the speed to charge in the first place, which is what distinguishes the charge from pounce or lunge.

[short spire]

Ambush doesn’t necessarily mean camping in one spot for half an hour. Ambush can also be stalking a herd until they’re distracted and you can make your move.

[azure crescent]

https://www.reddit.com/r/theisle/comments/w29u6w/carnotaurus_ambush/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

@golden coral

here’s a good example

[dusky surge]

i love that shit

[azure crescent]

same

[golden coral]

Okay but.. what's the difference between doing that as pachy, utah, or quite possibly even teno? Or just.. not use charge but run up and bite? That's just running up to something that is paying absolutely no attention.. not what I would call an ambush really at all, or perhaps, not something you need to be designed as an ambusher to pull off, is perhaps the better wording here. There's nothing there that says "carno is an ambusher" because what it's doing, any playable can do? The difference is that utah or pachy(?) can basically attack at point blank range, thus allowing them to actually wait until target is right there, rather than having to engage "before" as it were.

[short spire]

Those 3 Dino’s have much lower speed than carno, so they would have a larger window of vulnerability. They don’t have the high burst damage of carno- more sustained damage. And once again, ambushing doesn’t necessarily mean waiting for your target to come to you.

Though tbh it is a bit of a bad example since it got 1 tapped anyways

[golden coral]

Yes, they're slower, and I did not claim otherwise. I'm merely pointing out that the tactic/strategy in question is not really different. Be it using burst damage or not, which also depends on target in question and so on. But I disagree with what you define ambushing as, to me it's very much "sit and wait", remain hidden and jump out at something that gets close enough. Otherwise its more part of hunting in general. Ambush kind of does mean you wait for the target to get into a good position.

[azure crescent]

The difference is carno has higher burst damage and is better in doing a quick job

[azure crescent]

An ambush is an attack upon prey that is completely unaware of your existance, be it through waiting, or just jumping at them when they don’t expect it

Out of the land animals carno is the most fit to do this - it can close the distance quickly, has a charge that can deal ~300 damage on contact, has low agility, can bite rather quickly (no delay before the damage actually is dealt) and has one of the best skins and patterns for camo

A utah can ambush a pachy just as easily, however it can’t kill it as fast, no matter what it does

same applies for a teno because for it to use its strongest attack it has to turns backwards upon being in point blank range of the target, which lets it run away

[short spire]

@raw reef I agree that food drains too fast, but the blood pool is fine. If you’re being attacked by utahs, stand your ground and don’t run after them.

[raw reef]

yeah lmao ik i absolutely rolled utahs when i played carno,the problem is utah grows way too easy and it just leads to there being a group of 200 utahs just killing everything atleast on the servers i play in lmao

and the new utah pounce is bullshit now,it should be harder to land (harder than pouncing a carnos face and teleporting to its side) but deal more damage lol

[dusky surge]

it doesnt need to deal more damage

[short spire]

The damage is fine but yeah it should be harder to land

They basically made it hitscan lol

[golden coral]

Meanwhile, a pachy or utah can just sit in a bush and jump you the moment you're right there. How is that not in every which way better for an actual ambush, from a hidden spot, than having to leave said hidden spot to be able to use your main mechanic in the first place. The amount of damage is irrelevant to the point of being able to attack from a hidden spot, which is what ambush is. It's not about distracting or "them not expecting it" outright. The difference is in effectiveness of bringing something down, not the difference in effectiveness in doing an ambush, those are not the same things. Carno is perhaps the most fit at quickly taking out a target, but that's not the main point. Carno requires a minimum of distance + movement in order to use the charge, while a pachy or utah can sit right there one moment, and then be on you the next.

[short spire]

Sitting and waiting is way worse because the chance that someone will actually go to your exact location is incredibly low. The only reason deino works is because people need to drink.

[azure crescent]

It isn’t better because those two examples do a way worse job at actually killing the prey quickly

also if the target decides to stand right in front of you while you’re hiding you can still attack them and it would still be an ambush lol

[mental roost]

Wasn’t there this same exact discussion before with Erek in the past?? With almost all the same people as well??

[golden coral]

That's.. not really relevnt to the point either. Bad spots are bad, or well, deino has it's own issues, but those are diffrent.

[short spire]

You literally said “sitting and waiting is better than stalking and charging”, I think what I said is relevant

[golden coral]

... But killing the prey quickly is not part of the equation really. Are we counting that you're only a good ambusher if you can kill stuff quickly, vs if you can ambush from a hiding spot efficiently. Also that depends entirely on the target you're up against for that matter. But this is not in the sense that I've been talking about if carno is designed for ambush or not, or if the mechanic is good for it. And yes, of course you can attack if something is standing in front of you, but carno can not use it's main mechanic at that point, while others can.

[golden coral]

I pointed out that the other playables can actually properly attack from a concealed position, more efficiently than the carno that has to leave said position, expose itself, and get a certain distance and movement going before it can use it's mechanic. I did not say "sit in one spot is better than looking around and hunting", I said being able to attack from a spot is better for an ambusher, than having to leave said spot. A utah can sneak up closer to a target before launching an attack than a carno can.

[golden coral]

Quite possible!

[hollow canyon]

Utah's far better - it has a far faster crouch that allows it to gapclose and oneshots things up to its own weight, all the things that Carno is trash at. Utah>>>Carno as an ambush hunter.

Utah can also use its ability at point blank, Carno needs to keep distance from its prey to be able to charge it

all the things that an ambush hunter doesn't want to do

[obtuse ocean]

I would take utah 100 times over carno, the speed is nothing. So easy to dodge. Oh look a carno charging me, il move slightly to one side with my insane agility.

[hollow canyon]

^

literally the only reason why anyone could even try to argue that Utah could potentially be considered a worse ambush predator is because it's simply smaller, reverse their weights and you will see just how much better designed Utah is as an ambush hunter

[obtuse ocean]

Wonder if utahs gonna run around like brainless chicken since carno cant even catch you, not much to worry about even when they add newer dinos

[hollow canyon]

Idk about that I do know that I wasn't particularly concerned about Carno as long as there was just one, 1v2ing+ them as a Utah is still very tough though but yea a single Carno isn't much of a concern for a Utah

[raw reef]

@dusk sequoia lmao yeah i was fighting a buncha deinos as stego and some stupid baby utahs would keep opening my bleed wounds

[azure crescent]

what the hell does utah one shot that isn’t a hypsi??? if you say because of pinning that isn’t even a one shot because it has a lot of damage ticks and carno does the same amount of damage way faster

also by closing the distance i meant running after your prey is in position

[hollow canyon]

another Utah? Dryo? Pteranodon?

Literally everything that's smaller than it

[azure crescent]

read what i said

[hollow canyon]

And no, Carno isn't oneshotting its own sized animals with a single move

[azure crescent]

ptera makes sense but carno can one shiot it too lol

[azure crescent]

because it’s not supposed to?

[hollow canyon]

Yea cause Carno is bigger

[hollow canyon]

See? And Utah is, I think it's pretty obvious which one of them is a better ambush hunter

[azure crescent]

carno is meant to ambush the smaller fry, while having longer fights with things around teno sized

[azure crescent]

i hope you are aware that we are talking about an animal that is 4 times as large

[hollow canyon]

Yes and?

That doesn't change the fact that Utahraptor is far btter designed as an ambush hunter

its kit is far better suited to ambush hunting, it's as simple as that

[azure crescent]

indeed but is it more efficient?

[golden coral]

Why does the "one shot" matter in the question on how good something is at launching an ambush attack? Burst damage is one thing, but it's not the same as attacking from a hiding spot efficiently. As people above claimed, charge requires the target to not pay attention, while the charge puts the carno in a situation where "paying attention" requires the bare minimum from the target. In order to ambush, the carno needs to leave the ambush spot and make itself clearly noticable. This does not make sense for an ambush hunter in the first place.

[hollow canyon]

^

Carno is a trash ambush predator, it's as simple as that

you can ambush things with every animal in the game

[golden coral]

How is it difficult to understand that an animal that can attack from the hiding spot, point blank, is by definition the better ambush hunter, compared to the animal that has to leave said hiding spot, and not just stand up, but run, making noise and being visible, in order to properly attack. How is this not obvious?

[hollow canyon]

I've ambushed people with a Tenonto, that doesn't make Tenonto an ambush predator(or any other kind of predator for that matter)

[azure crescent]

i’ve personally found more success when ambushing things as carno rather than pursuing them

[golden coral]

If you're an ambush hunter, your entire point is to get at close to the target as possible, in order to launch your attack. Carno is not as good with this as most others, due to charge requiring the distance to set up.

[azure crescent]

carno is the fastest land animal how is it not good at closing the distance when the hunt begins?

[hollow canyon]

I've never paid attention to what's more successful, it literally depends on how dumb the player I'm up against is

[hollow canyon]

acceleration

[golden coral]

Because it requires distance to use the mechanic. No matter the speed, carno has a "minimum" range it requires if it wants to use the charge.

[azure crescent]

if the player fails to notice you, you had a successful ambush, regardless of intelligence

[golden coral]

Which is the entire point against it. For something that wants to just jump out at you from a bush, the carno requires a distance from bush to charge to target.

[hollow canyon]

Yes, if they're bad and don't notice me the hunt is successful by default, it has everything to do... not necessarily with intelligence but with skill

[azure crescent]

Yes so it’s useless to mention the player’s intelligence

[hollow canyon]

It really isn't

if they're bad - ambushing is easy

[azure crescent]

and?

[hollow canyon]

it's not going to work against someone that is paying attention to the game though

in that case running them down gives a far better chance

[azure crescent]

this applies to any dinosaur unless you’re a hypsi i hope you fucking die if you’re a hypsi

there’s always counterplay to being ambushed, it’s part of the game

in carno’s case, its major flaw is the acceleration

it’s fair that it has flaws because if it didn’t, that would be an issue

[golden coral]

Correct. But the counter to utah is "stay away from anything that can hide one" vs "stay in somewhat open area so you can see a carno coming"

[hollow canyon]

yes as opposed to the issues that Utah has which are... I guess if it messes up and misses its ability at point blank it has a short recovery?

idk, it's really obvious which one of these two is better designed to ambush hunt stuff

[azure crescent]

the first example of a counter you used applies to literally anything that is able to ambush even somewhat effectively

[golden coral]

Sort of, if it's against a carno ,you want to go near the hiding spot, as opposed to keep distance.

[azure crescent]

dude i never said utah wasn’t made for ambushing, I just said that carno was better at making a quicker job of the target if one pulls an ambush successfully

[golden coral]

Like, they're sort of opposed. Against utahs, you want open ground so you don't get a surprise pounce. Against carnos you want the hiding spot near you so you negate the charge.

[azure crescent]

ah yes go near the thing that is perfectly capable of killing you as a form of counterplay

[hollow canyon]

fast crouching animal that is relatively small and can remain hidden in the foliage easily while being capable of ending the fight by pinning its target vs a slowly crouching, tall, visible, large animal that can be seen from a mile away and which requires a relatively large distance from its target to even be able to knock it down... yea I wonder which one is the better ambush hunter

[golden coral]

I thought we were talking about charge. In which case, yes, if I'm too close, you can't use the charge, and as people said, carno isn't supposed to just bite... :p

[azure crescent]

you literally just said before that for carnos you want to be out in the open and now it’s reversed?

[hollow canyon]

You said Carno was the best fit land animal to ambushing things - it isn't

[golden coral]

I said carnos would want to be in the open. At least that was my point earlier, that carnos should be out and about, in the open, and run down things that are also dumb enough (and small enough) to be in the open.

[azure crescent]

it isn’t supposed to bite when ambushing from far, if it’s in a close distance it’s fine

[hollow canyon]

Utah>Carno as an ambusher, its kit and stats are far better for that

[golden coral]

Yes I know.. but if you're just biting, you're.. missing out on your main damage and mechanic.

[azure crescent]

carno still makes a quicker job at finishing the prey, like any good ambush hunter

[raw reef]

as someone that played carno i have ambushed raptors multiple times and never ever been ambushed by one once,idk if raptor is better at ambushing other dinos but i never been ambushed ever lmao

[thin mantle]

In relative terms not at all, this is only down to how large it is. It being an ambush predator is down to how effective ambush as a strategy is against its prey pool, not how big the targets are. A rex doesn't become a better ambush predator than a utah simply because its larger and does better damage, in relative terms, a utah is able to oneshot anything at its size or smaller, carno is not able to do this and requires a significantly more extensive followup and prolonged battle, the ambush is only effective to the same totality as utahs variant of the same tactic against creatures at utahs size or smaller, and only if hitting a headshot, otherwise it pales in comparison to the capabilities of pin, the contest isn't even there

[hollow canyon]

not every ambush predator kills its prey instantly, idk where you're getting this idea from

[azure crescent]

i didn’t say instantly, i only said carno was quicker at it than utah

[hollow canyon]

it's irrelevant to it being a better ambush hunter or not though

[lusty walrus]

why is this game so buggy?... playing a pternodon, i cant use space bar ( usually it works ) after a crash i cant get up anymore..

by the way is there anything in plan against this crocodile desaster? every fkn river full with them wtf

[azure crescent]

if the prey is already so close to you you might as well go in lmao

[hollow canyon]

Utah might take longer to kill its prey but it will do it more efficiently and easier via ambushing

[hollow canyon]

no, I don't think there is, Deino is just very easy to grow and packs a serious punch being the second strongest animal in the game

[azure crescent]

it will ambush better than carno, yes, but it won’t kill its prey better than carno

Let me put it like this

[lusty walrus]

@hollow canyon it is totally ridicoulus, u cant drink anywhere ._. cuz they just drown u xD

[hollow canyon]

ermm debatable, if both pull it off - I guess Carno will kill its prey better?

[thin mantle]

The only potential counter would be spino or cheirus, and I doubt deino will be slower than either, so probably not

[hollow canyon]

My suggestion is - try to play deinosuchus yourself, grow one to full adult and swim around the map, that will allow you to learn the spots where they can't ambush you from

and there's quite a lot of those

Then just drink in those spots from that point onwards

[raw reef]

i just drink in the forest because the forests in this game SUCKS and noone wants to go there even crocs lmao

[azure crescent]

Let’s say both the utah and the carno get a good ambush on say, a pachy.
The carno gets a charge, and then 1 or 2 bites. Boom, the pachy is dead.
The utah can either do a good pounce and wait like a minute or bite it to death, which is now harder due to tail damage nerf

[hollow canyon]

Yea nah, bad example Utah will kill Pachy more easily there, Pachy just dies if you pounce it on the current patch, it has a better chance of surviving the Carno charge

but yes in most cases - surviving a Utah pounce is more likely than surviving a Carno charge

but Utah pounce is much easier to pull off than Carno charge

[azure crescent]

Now let’s say both fail.
The carno is seen coming from a mile away, gets a head fracture from the pachy and now needs to bite it around 6 times.
The utah misses a pounce, has a 1 second recovery and just goes away

[raw reef]

because funny and epic haha lets make utahraptor for babies and make its atack not punishable at all

[azure crescent]

in my example, both of the abilities land perfectly

Being hit by a carno charge will leave the pachy 1 or 2 hits away from death while its stunned

[hollow canyon]

Yea I'm assuming both of them land, there's actually a higher chance of Pachy surviving the charge there

[azure crescent]

Being hit by a good pounce leaves the pachy on a timer, regardless of it being short or not

This timer is longer than the combo of the carno i mentioned

[hollow canyon]

Correct and it's possible to survive that, I've seen pachys survive get charged, atm getting hit with the pounce is the more likely way of killing a Pachy

[thin mantle]

The issue in the hypothetical is giving both predators the exact same target. The result of the engagement doesn't come down to the best ambush predator, but down to which one has higher DPS and the most security when facing a pachy, which is by far carno. If you gave both targets a creature identical in size or at least similar in size to themselves instead of giving them a target that massively favors the carno due to size you might get a more accurate outcome

[lusty walrus]

should buy pteranodon. should be able to grab a utah, or other juvi ( below 100kg ) and let them drop mid air

[azure crescent]

possibly the charge hit the head of the pachy?

[azure crescent]

No

[lusty walrus]

ye

it is just a fishing bot right now xD

[raw reef]

so beasts of bermuda

[thin mantle]

Plus you've already eliminated a massive part of the analysis by preestablishing that both ambushes land perfectly

Because now we're only comparing who does more damage and who can recover easier

[azure crescent]

yes, that’s what we were comparing

[hollow canyon]

No I don't think so, that would be hard to pull off and would result in less damage being dealt, Pachy is just more likely to survive a Carno charge than Utah pounce atm because its blood pool is extremely tiny, you are correct however in that Utah will likely take longer to kill the Pachy

[raw reef]

fliers in my oppinion shouldnt be able to kill almost anything (unless they are gigantic like quetz but in quetz case it would prob fly slow) because they can just cover the whole map and find targets in seconds

[azure crescent]

i made the hypothetical because i said carno could kill something quicker than a utah, given both have a successful ambush

[hollow canyon]

The thing that you're ignoring is just how easy it is to pull off the ambush with each one of these two animals

[thin mantle]

I thought we were discussing their capabilities for ambushing?

[raw reef]

its so unfair to die as a baby because this super speedy flier noticed you lol

[hollow canyon]

as well as the fact that Carno's ability just isn't well designed to ambushing - if it could use its charge at point blank from a standstill you would absolutely have a point

but it can't, it needs to have a sizable distance from its target

[azure crescent]

i made a suggestion about that

[thin mantle]

No, you've established that carno can kill a pachy quicker, if you compared relatively equivalent targets instead of the same target you'd get a more accurate outcome. Like giving carno a teno to ambush and a utah a pachy

[hollow canyon]

I dont think Carno should be using charge at point blank

I don't think it's an ambush predator

[azure crescent]

if carno charges from a crouch the minimum “distance” required should be smaller

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it's meant to be one

[thin mantle]

Agreed

[azure crescent]

ofc not

[hollow canyon]

Charge can be used in an open fight too, it doesn't have to be used as an ambush tool

[azure crescent]

Carno=hunts things smaller than it
Utah=hunts pretty much everything, with a focus on things its size or larger

i think pachy fits this criteria

[azure crescent]

i know

lunge can also be used for escaping things, so what’s your point

[thin mantle]

Well, no it massively favors carno here, because out of utahs massive range of viable targets you chose one of the most preferable targets for a carno.

[hollow canyon]

My point is that the most effective use of charge isn't even the ambushing of things

[thin mantle]

Instead of giving them relatively equivalent targets, like giving utah a pachy to ambush and the carno a teno to ambush

[azure crescent]

what is the most effective use then?

[thin mantle]

Group tactics mid combat

[hollow canyon]

have a go at a Carno megapack and you will see how cancerous charge can be

[hollow canyon]

^

You're not keeping track of 6 Carnos at once

[azure crescent]

megapacks are cancerous in general

[thin mantle]

Your target needs to be distracted for charge to work 90% of the time, so group tactics massively enhance it's functionality

[hollow canyon]

Yes and the charge's effectiveness becomes ridiculous in them

[azure crescent]

in an ambush your target is most likely distracted

[hollow canyon]

it's funny how a presumably solo hunter meant to hunt small prey has an ability that is really good when it groups up a lot

[azure crescent]

i think this applies to almost everything

[hollow canyon]

yes but not quite to the same extent

[thin mantle]

Only if your target is preoccupied with another fight its in, otherwise its scanning for threats

[hollow canyon]

pounce or tailslam can be used when you're solo and they are reasonably effective

[thin mantle]

Ironically pounce is more effective solo than charge is xD

[azure crescent]

solo utah is very fun

[hollow canyon]

charge goes from trash ability to op broken piece of garbage the moment Carnos group up

[hollow canyon]

yea...

[azure crescent]

i mean yes, thats why you wait for the right moment

[thin mantle]

Right, but the amount of "right moments" is significantly reduced when your "ambush ability" requires a significant enough distraction to not see a charging carno...this is what seperates carno from utah in regards to which makes the better ambush predator, pounce requires no distractions at all to be consistently used for ambush, if a dino walks by the bush you're in you can execute it and cause a few ticks of damage before they've really comprehended you pounced them, in stark contrast to charge which is one of the most noticeable abilities in the game

Furthermore the amount of viable terrain options for pounce FAR exceeds the viable terrain options for charge, you need a full on runway to even use charge let alone land it, and you need a clear line of sight from a significant distance from the target, as opposed to pounce which can be used point blank and is still very effective in forests

[azure hinge]

someone says skill on a post 🧂

[thin mantle]

Tbf it's a gratuitously common scapegoat

[azure hinge]

yeah definitely is

i mean its just like the new word people use these days gaslighting

but everyone knows that they made evrima more herb friendly by intention

[hollow canyon]

Tbh Idk about 2 Tenos taking down 5 Carnos, that does actually sound like a bit of a skill issue but

[thin mantle]

Mhm, tbf I imagine carnivores are intended to be the more challenging class

[hollow canyon]

yea Teno might have a bit too much of an advantage over Carno atm, I'm not sure

[thin mantle]

It is, 2 carnos can take 2 tenos handily, 2 tenos can also take down 2 carnos handily, it's down to circumstance and skill level at that point

[hollow canyon]

I think the only thing I would change about Teno is take away the bleed on its kick(while nerfing Carno's bleed too)

[thin mantle]

The only unfair advantage I think it has is carnos bleed nerf

[hollow canyon]

yea that coupled with the fourth strongest bleed in the game

might sort of make it a bit too good I think

I've been told by at least 2 people so far that it seems that Carno just handles bleed from the kicks very poorly

which I really don't think should be the main thing Carno should be worrying about in that match up

then again - its own bleed is a bit too high too

[thin mantle]

I'd wanna see carnos bleed nerf reverted before making any claims as to whether teno needs a bleed damage nerf

[hollow canyon]

I remember getting bitten by a Carno as a young-ish Utah and yea the bleed was a bit too high

[hollow canyon]

Idk if I'd want it reverted... perhaps?

That's one way to do it I suppose

if it gets reverted then yea I guess it doesn't need a bleed nerf but... idk I'd personally still nerf it on both animals

neither Carno nor Tenonto are meant to be bleeders

and in Teno's case it should apply bleed with the claws if anything

[thin mantle]

Ehh, 2 half pounces melts a carno rn...maybe I wouldn't have an issue with that if pounce took any amount of conscious thought to execute but....yknow

[hollow canyon]

Yea alright that sounds bad

I do believe that when i got pounced by a Utah at one point it took 15% of my blood even though I was standing and sitting the whole time after getting pounced so... idk

[thin mantle]

I'd prolly need a more concrete balance criticism than what it's meant to do, tenos have long sharp toe claws on it's hind legs so logistically its completely fine for it to have decent bleed on kicks, not that I even agree or disagree I haven't given it too much thought, although I would wanna see a less bleed vulnerable carno go up against current teno before staking my stance on the topic

[thin mantle]

Mhm, which especially for carno, is fairly silly as standing still borderline deletes the advantages of your creature

You're meant to defend yourself by moving, pounce currently prevents you from even trying to move

[hollow canyon]

ermmm I really don't think Teno would be doing much bleed by kicking with its hindlegs

[hollow canyon]

yea I don't disagree

you're not standing it place in a normal fight

the one I had there was a bit specific

[thin mantle]

I guess I just see those giant long and sharp toe claws connected to those cannons for legs, and then think about how absurdly efficient deer hooves and horse hooves are for puncturing. Like a moose can put holes in a care by "punching" it, and teno is significantly more powerful than your average canadian moose

[hollow canyon]

to build up on this - I suppose I'd rather see claw swipe as the bleeding attack, I really don't like the idea of one attack doing too much at once to the point where it's just outright better than others

if you want to bleed stuff - you clawswipe it, if you want to dish out the damage - you kick it

[thin mantle]

That's fair, I agree, although I think it's range sorta makes up for it a bit, it can't be used against a fairly competent attacker unless the target has already been stunned, I'd prolly need to think of it a bit more tho

[hollow canyon]

I'd even be willing to say that clawswipe could perhaps have a higher multiplier

[thin mantle]

If that were the case I'm all for it, because the amount of bleed damage teno can do is a thing I take no issue with, the delivery mechanism could be altered to make it's other abilities better options than simply having the 2 trick pony of the stun combo

And I use claw swipe a lot but it is a bit....confused

The ability exists, and is a decent crowd control attack for smaller targets, but besides that it basically has no purpose in the face of stun and slam

[azure crescent]

claw swipe is good for teno vs teno and against utahs

[opaque beacon]

aww they removed it oof

@native flame Well spoken, people called me salty last time I asked for something to do about stego

[native flame]

well, i am salty, just for good reason lol

[azure hinge]

Yeah this discord has been very pro herbi for a long time, lots of new people coming in saying the same thing about the balance with stego being horrible

But doubt the devs will see it enough, once all the people that came back and quit because of the imbalance. The discord will go back to being big herbi dominance

[hallow spire]

@dusky osprey were u all full grown?🤨

[obtuse ocean]

We took down 1 yesterday as a pack of utahs, dont see the problem. Looks like you wanne play in swarms and just kill whatever? as you mention.

[true ginkgo]

@native flame almost like stego was added to the game way too early

[native flame]

your singular, admittedly impressive feat if its true you took down a fully grown stego, has very little to do with anything i said

if there were two stegos, you would have been unable to do that. if there was a teno, or hell even a pachy or two, you would not have been able to take down that stego

and i very very rarely see stegos alone. this is even addressed in my point that while stegos can feasibly die to a lot of raptors or carnos when alone, almost all stegos are not alone. a dinosaur should not be functionally immortal because it has a friend

[proper coral]

i didnt even notice i put it in the balance feedback☠️

[azure crescent]

@opaque beacon 10 alt bites for deino is more than enough to kill a stego

also stego has that many swings because it's the only strong attack it has

[golden coral]

@opaque beaconI don't think you can compare stego swing with deino alt bite. Do remember deino does the same damage with normal bite, and the alt bite is specifically for on land to turn against things. A deino can just.. go into water and then either go away or use it's lunge to counter. If stego had another swing, or otherwise useful attack aside from the standard bite everything has, it would be more reasonable to limit a "full power" attack I'd say.

[azure crescent]

indeed

i don't see how cutting the amount of swings in half it can do will make it more balanced

[native flame]

making stegosaurus weaker isnt the play in my opinion

[golden coral]

Honestly, stego shoud have more than one kind of attack, especially since it would give a reason to rework the quick jab angle one which is just.. strange.

It's not really making it weaker per say, it's giving it different attacks, with some of them being more powerful but slower than others and vice versa. Not unlike most critters that have normal attack, alt attack, and then something extra. Or in the case of teno, has lots of attacks.

[native flame]

that was in reference to utahs idea, not yours

i think a big issue with stego is that its swing his such a wide area

one saving grace about stegos is that they cant really go around murder hoboing everything, because they are so slow and have to have the target at least somewhat behind them

but having an excess of practically invincible creatures that have free reign to harass, corpse camp and protect other herbivores to an absurd degree just aint no fun

[hollow canyon]

Stego with 10 swings was utter garbage, we've already had that back in update 3.5

If Stego gets a nerf - it should simply be a damage nerf imo, it's as simple as that

[opaque beacon]

Thats not the point

Im not talking about deino v stego in general

[hollow canyon]

^ that

Stego should just have more than one attack

different attacks should take a different amount of stamina and deal different damage

...but that's not happening

[native flame]

stego does have bite, but they so rarely use it and it does no damage to any creature larger than juvi

[sturdy acorn]

true

I love how the game on the lowest settings looks like something from roblox yet it has max 40 frames

And I run most of my games on highest settings

Lovely...

20 near ppl 40 when noone's around

[azure crescent]

i have a 1660 and i get regular 70-80 fps in epic settings

[sturdy acorn]

lucky you

[hollow canyon]

@hazy glen if you think Stego can't do much then imagine being literally any other animal(except Deino). Yes, that thing is intentional, it should also get removed asap.

Utah's just broken in about half a dozen of ways on the current patch.

[hazy glen]

well i play stego for a longer time now.... it was not that bad as it is now... and i dont get why the bleed is that strong and they also drain my stamina.... and can avoid my tail swining and if i buck my stamina i used up way to quick.... uthas also grow in 2h? this is some how way to strong over all

and @hollow canyon any other animal except for deino has at least the chance of trying to run away if theres too many uthas comin.... to run away as a stego means to loose stamina and that means u cant defend urself and that means ur dead

[hollow canyon]

Utah grows faster than just 2 hours, much faster than that

you pretty much just need to eat one thing and you get to reach full adult from that

Utah's just broken on this patch

and yes, Stego was not "that bad" in the past, it's been the strongest animal in the game consistently for the past ~11 months

[hazy glen]

never seen a full grown elephant beeing afraid of a pack of lions.... while a full grown stego now just is an entertaining steak to a pack of uthas

[hollow canyon]

everything is an entertaining steak to a pack of Utahs(except Deinosuchus of course)

Utahraptor just needs to get hit with some major nerfs

[hazy glen]

or they leave it like that but make the other animals also stronger....

[golden coral]

@dusk sequoiaThats already how it works, if you have no nutrients at all, you get some debuffs, including damage I believe. One nutrient is neutral.

[native flame]

having just one nutrient should probably impose minor debuffs, two being neutral/minor buffs and 3 being more major

[dusk sequoia]

I swore dmg wasn’t part of it

I actually haven’t had a 0 diet in a long ass time though lol

[golden coral]

Maybe they've changed, but it used to be at least, 50% or so off, maybe they made it less

[dusk sequoia]

I agree though one could already give debuffs because it’s such a joke

[golden coral]

Well, two is rather minor buffs, compared to getting the third, or so I feel at least.

[dusk sequoia]

Until I can confirm 0 is dmg I’ll just edit to say greater debuffs lol

[hollow canyon]

We don't need further herbivore buffs and that's exactly what those changes would do

they'd buff herbivores and hard at that

[dusk sequoia]

How ? Herbivores already have an easier time getting 3 nutrients, but that wouldn’t change anything with perfect diets. If you can’t get 2 diets as a carnivore idk what to tell you

3 diets as a carno is impossible though 100% which is an issue

[hollow canyon]

Nah, 2 is... relatively doable, it's pretty much the standard

but that ^ is very much the case

meanwhile herbivores - literally not having a perfect diet on them is just a major skill issue

idk, the moment a herbivore gets a perfect diet it shouldn't ever be going below that if they are they were either screwing around or doing something really dumb

herbivores already have a much, much easier time maintaining their diet, there's no reason to punish carnivores further for having worse diets than their herbivorous counterparts

[dusk sequoia]

Faster diet drain on herbi would make them move around more

[hollow canyon]

I guess? Maybe? Idk that could mess with nesting or something

[dusk sequoia]

But depends because it can’t drain too much faster than food or you don’t have stomach room

[hollow canyon]

Not a big fan of diets in general

[dusk sequoia]

So I gusss both would have to be increased

[hollow canyon]

yea no it can't drain faster than food at all

it did on one patch and it was just a slow descent into a bad diet

[dusk sequoia]

I love diets, it’s a cool concept and nutrition makes sense, I love seeing stuff be unhealthy or skinny from neglecting it but obviously can always use tweaking

[hollow canyon]

I wouldn't tinker with diets in general, they work very poorly and aren't a solution to anything

their set up is just horrific like the set up of anything that has to do with numbers in this game

[fresh laurel]

I dont think major nerfs is the way to go imo

You can still counter Utah pounce pretty heavily with the environment and for Carnos, with mud. I think Utah's main problem is the endlag for missing being too short

[golden coral]

Start by just reverting the carno bleed change, and the buck cooldown thing. See how it goes from there. If needed, maybe add a touch more time to the pounce recovery from there.

[hollow canyon]

Utah absolutely needs major nerfs

[alpine tusk]

It really doesn't tbh

[hollow canyon]

bucking is trash, it uses up stamina way too fast, Utah itself drains stamina while pouncing the target for little to no reason, bucking having the cooldown is another thing that has to go

[fresh laurel]

buck cooldown makes it so you have to wait between bucking again right?

[hollow canyon]

utah stays latched on for way too long while the target is bucking

[fresh laurel]

what

[hollow canyon]

it's just broken in half a dozen of different ways

[fresh laurel]

Utah doesnt stay on too long

Bucking destroys stamina for Utah lol

[alpine tusk]

So what, are you suggesting that the coolddown should be removed?

[hollow canyon]

yes

[fresh laurel]

so whats the issue?

[hollow canyon]

it does destroy the stamina - of the bucking animal

[golden coral]

Im honestly not sure. I've yet to test it properly, due to irl reasons, but from what I have been told, its supposed to add a cooldown between bucking and then attacking, or bucking again. Or something like that.

[hollow canyon]

that is the problem

[alpine tusk]

Sorry. Have you played Utah

[fresh laurel]

From my experience its like a 2 second cooldown or something

[alpine tusk]

Because it destroys Utah stamina as well

[hollow canyon]

yes, by far the most on this patch idk why anyone would even play anything else

[golden coral]

If you mean the buck cooldown, then yes, that's just a bad idea.

[fresh laurel]

Which animal does it destroy stamina on the most? I heard its Stego that takes it harder

[golden coral]

Alright, do you know if it applies both to attacking and bucking, or only bucking? Because if its just bucking, I suppose its not too terrible, but its still very questionable, since it allows for chain pounces.

[fresh laurel]

I think its bucking because I seen Stegos almost hit me on dismount

Also if anything utah pounce was nerfed this update :P

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto

[alpine tusk]

I think maybe instead of directly nerfingstamina, buffing other dinos is the better solution, because in previous patches Utahs got nerfed so hard they were impossible to play

[hollow canyon]

literally everyone of them

it's very simple - the devs instead of fixing pounce which was broken for the past... what was it? 11 months? decided to throw a number of nerfs onto bucking which made this mechanic a complete dumpsterfire

[fresh laurel]

Imo just make bucking require more counter play between the animals. Anyways wouldnt it be better to just adjust how much stamina bucking takes?

[hollow canyon]

they now fixed the pounce

[fresh laurel]

and nerfed the impact pounce

and made stamina decrease more I think

Anyways you could always use trees to help you as teno :P

or possibly hills...

[hollow canyon]

yes and Utah could've stayed with a broken bite and just bit stuff to death, 200 iq logic right there

[fresh laurel]

I dont get you there?..

[alpine tusk]

Pouncing is wildly dangerous for a Utah. If anything goes wrong during it, even on a successful one. They get punished hard

[raw reef]

@short spire agreed lol maybe make it only in places where no herbivore food spawns but other than that idk why have it when herbis dont need to eat their own diets

[raw reef]

to be fair it isnt now since if you miss you get up in 2 seconds lmao

[fresh laurel]

I mean a Utah pack is pretty deadly against lone dinosaurs which is how it should be

but lone dinosaurs still have options

[hollow canyon]

yes just like Stego was pretty strong on the last patch

[fresh laurel]

Stego wasnt nerfed?

At least not directly

[hollow canyon]

I'm saying that that's a euphemism

saying that Utah pack is pretty deadly

is like saying that Stego is pretty good at fighting Deino

[alpine tusk]

If you miss, but God forbid you do it on a hill, or a cliff, or run out of stamina during it, or near a tree. Hell, even near other animals

[fresh laurel]

Well it is.

[hollow canyon]

that's an understatement of the century

[fresh laurel]

How else you want me to word it lol

[hollow canyon]

Utah is broken, it's been broken for a very, very long time and it's still broken, it's just broken in the other direction now

[fresh laurel]

Imo I think Utah is pretty balanced but needs tiny adjustments

[golden coral]

Alright. If you can find out for others it'd be appreciated! No too terrible then, but still not sure on it, it does take away the "mind games" of bucking at the least.

[hollow canyon]

lol

[fresh laurel]

not major nerfs :P

[hollow canyon]

Well, let me rephrase that - Utah itself is a w/e, it's bucking that needs major buffs

[raw reef]

i dont get the tought process behind lets make utahs be able to pounce anywhere of the dinos body and make it teleport to the side of it

[hollow canyon]

Utah itself might at most need a longer recovery period after missing the pounce

but that's about it

[fresh laurel]

Bucking destroys stamina on the raptor... what else do you want?

[hollow canyon]

the rest is all about bucking being utter trash

[hollow canyon]

not destroying the stamina of the bucking animal would be a start I guess

[fresh laurel]

Probably because of how pounce doesnt have animations for anything other spot and how quick everything turns idk

[fresh laurel]

I mean even then depending where you are, you can use the area to help you even more lol

[hollow canyon]

no, it's just made like that to make it easier to pounce stuff, it wasn't always like this

[fresh laurel]

I know

[raw reef]

i mean if you pounce somethings face or tail,you should just fall down,you couldnt land your heavy hit and you deserve to be punish but hey what do i know

[hollow canyon]

iirc on update 1 pouncing something head on cause you to faceplant the ground right in front of it

not sure if it was update 1 or prior to that

[fresh laurel]

It did but Utah back then didnt need pounce to win

[raw reef]

lmao it had actual biteforce

[fresh laurel]

You could bite teno to death

and moved at sonic speeds

turned quicker than dryo

[hollow canyon]

Yes, so it totally makes sense to further buff it by letting it land a pounce even when it messes it up

[fresh laurel]

I mean its harder to pounce the back of an animal compared to head rn from what I can see

[alpine tusk]

I have never landed a pounce that I messed up

[fresh laurel]

remember when it had 15 bite force?

[raw reef]

[dusk sequoia]

Utah can legit pounce the tip of a tail and teleport to the side of their body, that’s the only issue I have right now

That and some tree models not knocking them properly

[fresh laurel]

Also tbf back when you couldnt pounce the face and junk, I dont think bucking was a thing yet and sliding raptors off with trees

[hollow canyon]

Bucking was very mucha thing

[fresh laurel]

Imo just rework the bucking mechanic

make it actually require work from both parties or something

[raw reef]

its impossible to buck utahs down rn

since they can just jump off 1 second before the animation

[dusk sequoia]

I want bucking tenos to do dmg to shit behind them because their animation literally has them kicking lol

[fresh laurel]

the tip isnt true...

its the base of the tail

[fresh laurel]

do you mean its impossible to make them fall off and do the animation?

[dusk sequoia]

https://clips.twitch.tv/BetterBlitheToadBCouch-L6ln74h7mMxdoLPb

[hollow canyon]

idk how anyone can even try to justify this

[dusk sequoia]

Looks an awful lot like tip/later half of tail to me but ok

[fresh laurel]

thats an issue with juvie utah

[hollow canyon]

Yes, absolutely balanced

[fresh laurel]

juvie utah for SOME UNGODLY REASON can stay on against buck longer than adults

for lord knows why

[hollow canyon]

yes, an issue with juvie Utah - you either buck and lose stamina or you don't buck and... also lose stamina

[raw reef]

so they can come to finish you off after they die as their adult easier lmao

[fresh laurel]

you lose stam for not bucking?

[hollow canyon]

because Utah gets to drain stamina while pouncing the target

[hollow canyon]

yes, that's what I've been saying

[dusk sequoia]

Yeah that makes 0 sense

[raw reef]

bruh i lost my stego to this

[hollow canyon]

Utah DRAINS your stamina by pouncing you

[fresh laurel]

that should go now

that shouldnt be a thing :P

[hollow canyon]

it drains your stamina and then you lose even more when you buck

[dusk sequoia]

I don’t know if it’s even intended but I noticed juvis draining my stam

[hollow canyon]

it also applies bleed which further decreases the stamina regen

as I said - Utah is broken in half a dozen of ways atm

[fresh laurel]

Make bucking be the only thing draining your stam while being pounced

not just standing still

[dusk sequoia]

Yeah between ruining stam regen, using stam to buck, draining stam .. like wut

[fresh laurel]

that looked more like ping

man had almost 200 ping

[dusk sequoia]

I mean it could be sure but Utah is 100% a magnet right now

I remember a few updates ago, before pachy, it felt a lot more skillful, now everyone can land a pounce

[fresh laurel]

I dont think utah can pounce carno on that part of the tail normally

[dusk sequoia]

Pounce is a joke

[hollow canyon]

here's another one - stamina go brrrr, Utah very balanced animal

[fresh laurel]

well thats more for bucking

I saw that video

[dusk sequoia]

The stego is bucking while walking though

So hard to judge off that one

But yes I have had stam drain without a buck but still wonder if a bug

[hollow canyon]

the fact that it got 5 attacks off before losing all stamina is all that needs to be said

[fresh laurel]

if they made utah pouncing you not drain your stamina unless bucking then I would say its fine

[hollow canyon]

not a bug

[fresh laurel]

also reducing juvie utah buck resistance

[dusk sequoia]

Something that big should just stun a juvi trying to pounce

Like when a deino lunges something too big

[fresh laurel]

though I never understood how things could walk while bucking tbh

[hollow canyon]

Bucking should either not drain stamina or cause the stamina of Utah to get nuked even faster

Utah gets to stay on its target way too long considering that bucking costs stamina

[fresh laurel]

just make the juvie fall off quicker tbh

like faster than an adult Utah

because really an adult should have an easier time latching

[dusk sequoia]

I mean I don’t see how a fresh spawn juvi could stick their claws onto the hide of something hard as a rock to it

Period

And this feeds into the whole juvis shouldn’t even apply bleed thing

[fresh laurel]

making utah stam get nuked even faster would be such a horrible change on so many levels lol

[hollow canyon]

It really, really wouldn't be

[fresh laurel]

really would

[hollow canyon]

really really wouldn't

[fresh laurel]

would be smarter to make utah not drain your stam even if you dont pounce

[hollow canyon]

for how strong pounce is right now? Yea no, bucking either needs to stop having a stamina cost itself or it should keep the stamina cost and have Utah lose stamina even faster

[fresh laurel]

maybe adjusting how fast bucking drains your stam but utah stam vs buck is fine rn

[raw reef]

buck shouldnt even cost stam since 90% of the time it doesnt throw off the actual utah and they just jump off

[dusk sequoia]

Yeah buck-user should use less stam 100%

But Utah stam drain is perfectly fine

Especially pachy you have to jump off asap

[fresh laurel]

they jump off because they see their stamina draining and know what will happen?

wouldnt be fun gameplay to just get the death wish animation for using the rmb

[dusk sequoia]

Yeah jumping off is the point? Lol

[raw reef]

ik would be better if there was a point to bucking instead of using a tree or something,better than wasting your stam tbh

[fresh laurel]

I mean really... imagine growing to adult and just dying because the prey held e

[fresh laurel]

you buck if theres no trees near?

[dusk sequoia]

Trees and rocks are super finicky and buggy atm as well

[fresh laurel]

:P

[fresh laurel]

I feel like they should also start making other attacks get offed by trees too imo

stego swing hitting you through the tree is iffy

[dusk sequoia]

Yea I mean collision on a lot of stuff is tough; I get bit through rocks and trees all the time

[fresh laurel]

I feel the devs need to find a good way to balance Utah in forests either way tbh

[fresh laurel]

Dont think you need collision like that... just make it so the swing doesnt count as a hit or something if a large object is in the way

anyways I think if they made it so you have to run in order to slide a utah off a tree would make utahs be ok hunting in forests more

feels weird how Utah and carno mostly hunt in the same area

[dusk sequoia]

Speed does impact it

[fresh laurel]

really?

[dusk sequoia]

Run it stuns walk it slides

[fresh laurel]

I've been slid off just by the animal walking

[dusk sequoia]

If you just wiggle I don’t ever manage to even get it off

[fresh laurel]

hmmm gotta test that

[dusk sequoia]

Seems buggy though and some tree models don’t work period

[fresh laurel]

anyways still hope they find a good way to separate utah and carno hunting grounds

both preferring to hunt in plains is weird to me

[bronze hull]

Anyone else think they should fix the carno bleed like fighting 2 utahs for about 5 mins or less and i bleed out before biting both of em 2-3 times

[grave quartz]

yep

[fresh laurel]

I dont really play Carno so I cant say anything about it :P

[grave quartz]

fix carnos diet or fix ai spawns

[fresh laurel]

ai spawns are fixed

[grave quartz]

i cant find any

[fresh laurel]

they just spawn waaay less

[grave quartz]

oh

[fresh laurel]

they need to make ai spawn more again imo

[grave quartz]

yep

[fresh laurel]

like I dunno maybe make rabbit spawn as much as boar used to

[grave quartz]

idk

but carno hungry tho

i did not notice this with utah

but i feel like carno hungry drips fast

[fresh laurel]

it was to counter megapacks but

the devs went about it wrong imo

making changes to counter one specific game issue could end up affecting normal players gameplay

[grave quartz]

yep

it feels like i counted normal carno

[fresh laurel]

ngl

utah having a pack limit of 8 rn is too much :P

[inland pecan]

not really

[alpine tusk]

I think fall damage should be lessened, or implement different effects other than just pure death

[fresh laurel]

8 utahs is over kill for anything but stego

[dusk sequoia]

Doesn’t matter when everyone megapacks anyway

[inland pecan]

I say 8 is fair because of Carno right now, stego kind too strong right now as well

[fresh laurel]

carno has trouble taking on waay less than 8 lol

[inland pecan]

thats just cause they're bad honestly

[fresh laurel]

8 is really only for stego but even then less utahs can make quick work still

[fresh laurel]

a good one still can lose to less than 8

[inland pecan]

I'm not talking about a 1v8 with carno

[fresh laurel]

if utahs are good and carno are good then you dont need 8 still

[inland pecan]

Utah is squishy and gets 1 tapped or 2 tapped by a lot

[fresh laurel]

utah doesnt get one shot by carno

[inland pecan]

I didnt say carno

I said it does get one shot or 2 shot by a lot

[fresh laurel]

you were just talking about carno

[inland pecan]

carno kills in 2

my Utah is squishy was related to all mid tiers and apex

[fresh laurel]

deino and stegos are the only things that can one shot utah lol

[inland pecan]

carno and teno 2 tap it

[fresh laurel]

if to the head for carno

you normally will get hit on the body or tail by carno lol

[inland pecan]

if a pack of 3 or 4 carnos are losing to Utahs then thats a skill issue

[fresh laurel]

4 carnos is a mega pack

[inland pecan]

3v8 still isnt that hard

[fresh laurel]

3 have trouble feeding themselves this update it seems

[inland pecan]

carnos do get hungry way to fast I agree and with lack of AI its a problem

but nerfing Utah isn't going to solve it

[fresh laurel]

if utahs are good then at least one carno will bleed out

[fresh laurel]

reducing pack limit isnt exactly a nerf

[inland pecan]

yea and if carnos are good then Utahs will lose half or more

[fresh laurel]

8 utahs is hard to maintain and usually is over kill for most hunts

[fresh laurel]

you are only thinking carno lol

[inland pecan]

Teno can pack 6 right, so Utah having 8 still isnt enough for a teno fight

[fresh laurel]

you know the animal that kinda counters utah

[inland pecan]

carno could use another slot but saying Utah needs less is kinda crazy

[fresh laurel]

teno packing with 6 is a bad idea

should be reduced too

but I feel teno and stego pack limits are only high for herding

[inland pecan]

ok then Carno needs to be increased by 1 not reduce Utah

[fresh laurel]

even then teno herds are more manageable for utah than carno packs

[inland pecan]

no

[fresh laurel]

carno doesnt need 4 pack members lmao

thats over kill

[inland pecan]

Teno can 2 tap Utah with tail slap

[dusky surge]

3 is perfectly fine for carno

its not a pack animal and doesn't need to be treated as one

[fresh laurel]

thats if you fail to bait the tail or if you ran into it

[inland pecan]

thats fine but I don't see why Utah should be reduced if its fighting Tenos

[fresh laurel]

kinda your fault as a utah if you die to a tail slam tbh

[inland pecan]

with 6 Tenos its not that hard to get killed as a Utah since they all stick close and never leave each other

[fresh laurel]

Teno should be reduced too imo, 6 is a bit much

[fresh laurel]

ever made tenos hit each other?

[dusky surge]

i dont see why 8 utahs is that bad tbh

[inland pecan]

its not

[dusky surge]

its explicitly described as a pack animal

[inland pecan]

numbers is the only thing the Utah really has besides its decent bleed

[fresh laurel]

I think 8 is a bit over kill for most things now that pounce works

[inland pecan]

not really, 8 is a good number for Utah

[dusky surge]

its fine in the case of an animal explicitly stated to pack

[inland pecan]

and that

[fresh laurel]

less than 8 doesnt mean its not a pack hunter anymore :P

[dusky surge]

what would you put troodon at then

[inland pecan]

20 lmao

[fresh laurel]

a lot more

since its tiny?

could have a infinite amount and I wouldnt care

[inland pecan]

troodon gonna suffer hard core

[fresh laurel]

Troodon would lose to boar probably

[hexed sorrel]

either they are going to make venom incredibly OP or very bad

[dusky surge]

i disagree i dont think troodon will suffer

i love troodon conceptually

its the animal im most hyped for

[fresh laurel]

Troodon mains after trample update:

[inland pecan]

troodon cool and I am gonna play it, but I think its gonna suffer if poison isnt done right

[dusky surge]

literally dont walk in front of their feet the trample update won't mean jack lmao

[fresh laurel]

if its very bad then we will have to wait months hearing the community complain for venom buff

[fresh laurel]

try landing a bite at that size 🥱

[dusky surge]

its going to pounce so

[inland pecan]

wouldnt be that hard honestly

[fresh laurel]

waiting for confirmation

🥱

[dusky surge]

theres literal animations of it pouncing lmao

[fresh laurel]

still waiting 🥱

[dusky surge]

why are you getting so weirdly passive aggressive over troodon lmao

[fresh laurel]

im not?

[inland pecan]

honestly can't wait to try troodon, I hope its good.

[fresh laurel]

im just saying im waiting for pounce to be confirmed lol

[dusky surge]

def my most hyped animal

[fresh laurel]

Leave troodon, join Herrera

[inland pecan]

my most hyped dino is Cerato, I hope it's done right this time haha

that and Bary

[fresh laurel]

gonna play spino, giga, bary, herrera, irl utah, cera and herrera tbh

[dusky surge]

lol

lmao

[fresh laurel]

then troodon will suffer less during trample update :D

[dusky surge]

i like herrera but i still want to form my troodon swarm

[fresh laurel]

mods to give herrera venom 🥱

[dusky surge]

i have my mates on standby for the day it drops

nights will be our own

[dusky surge]

im not playing troodon for the venom

[fresh laurel]

Good luck fighting a Utah pack tbh

[dusky surge]

why the fuck would i go after a utah pack as a troodon pack

thats a horrid idea

[fresh laurel]

for the babies

wonder how troodon pack vs 2 utahs will go

[dusky surge]

and if they have none im not doing that because its suicide. I reckon utah will easily be one of troodon's biggest predators

[fresh laurel]

or how a troodon swarm vs stego could end

[fresh laurel]

troodon is a indirect buff to utah 🤨

reduce other creatures populations while letting utah have another prey item

[dusky surge]

maybe, i just think utah will be the bane of extra smalls

it already terrorises hypsi so

i dont see a troodon trapped out in solid daylight doing much to survive a utahraptor that's hungry and caught its scent

[fresh laurel]

herrera being added or utah climbing will make hypsi extinct tbh

[fresh laurel]

depends how fast troodon is

but troodon is pretty tiny to lose a utah in a forest or big bush tbh

[zealous citrus]

Troodon is so small that even if utah doesn’t 1 shot it the dying from small blood pool will kill it

Tho it just depends what troodon venom is actually doing if its op and how to get rid of it

[opaque beacon]

what

[fresh laurel]

read

[opaque beacon]

Troodon will get fucked by Utah, its not a "indirect buff" its a new creature to the game that Utah, Ptera, Carno and Deino can hunt lmao

[dusky surge]

It’s an animal with unique matchups, it does well against some and poor against others

[frail bobcat]

I think the utah will be its main predator

[zealous citrus]

And deino when you drink

[teal sand]

i agree that Utah vs Carno is a bit too 50-50 but if a full grown carno allows 1 single utah to kill it with like 2 pounces with the damage and speed advantages he has doesnt he kinda deserve it?

like im kinda glad Utah packs can actually kill carnos now, me and a pack took down a grown carno where as in update 4 it wouldve killed all of us without a sweat. but i agree it is a bit much

[fresh laurel]

Man yall took that way too far

It was a joke 🗿

[elder steppe]

I fear the coming of the SHANT.. An abomination of unbalanced magnitude lol

[opaque beacon]

ok lol my bad