balance-feedback-discussion

[hollow canyon]

You get to 88% of growth as Deino before the perfect diet that you acquired at 50% runs out

[celest copper]

If you can't find any then your pretty much dead from starvation damage and the chance to find prey you can kill within the time limit

[celest copper]

You have a higher chance at running into an fishing stego before you reach adult

[hollow canyon]

If you die to a fishing Stego as a deino that isn't fully grown - l2p

[golden coral]

You really do not. Thats just wrong.

[dusky surge]

if you die to a fishing stego that is 100% a skill issue

[hollow canyon]

I mean you do, it's just that if you die to it - you have a serious skill issue and no wonder you have trouble growing a carnivore

[dusky surge]

you literally asked for it in that case

[celest copper]

Bro how is skill involved when you have no chance at defense?

[dusky surge]

alright

[celest copper]

Where are going to go, swim away in a thin little stream?

[dusky surge]

A: Swim beneath the tail's reach
B: Run on the other side of the river
C: Simply don't reveal yourself to the stego by swimming UNDER the water
D: Turn the other way

4 options already

[golden coral]

What little stream? Most rivers are plenty deep and then you got all the swamp..

[celest copper]

If two stegos have you pinched , and the tails reach further than they actually look, then what? do you guys just afk grow for 7hrs and say it's easy?

[dusky surge]

If that's happening, I reflect on the dumb choices I made to get pinned by two of the slowest animals in the game

100% a skill issue

[calm ibex]

they all go to NW for action and complain about fishing stegos

[celest copper]

"slowest animals"? dang when was the last time you actually played a deino?

You do understand you cannot afk grow anymore?

[dusky surge]

i have one growing rn. So far, been EXTREMELY easy

[celest copper]

Of course without it costing time

[dusky surge]

Just AFK grow in a good hiding spot until 50%, then scavenge the rest of your life

[golden coral]

It is easy to afkgrow, simple as that. And takes about 5 hours for deino. No problem at all.

[celest copper]

Oh it makes sense, yeah I figured you pretty much make my point

[dusky surge]

I have yet to actually feel threatened by a stego or anything but a bigger deino

[hollow canyon]

more like 5 hours but yea, Deino is the literal epitome of afk growth

[dusky surge]

If you know how to grow a deino, it's easy as pie

The worst part of growing a deino is the boredom

[celest copper]

No it doesn't take 5hrs, more like 6-7hrs. This is what I am talking about herbivore mains just growing carnivore for an extended amount of time just so they can say without lying that they have played carnivores

[golden coral]

If you deliberately play dangerously, thats on you and if you do the same as herbi, itd be more dangerous anyway

[hollow canyon]

not if you grow 2 or 3 of them at once

you then spend the whole time just jumping between the servers on which you are growing them

[calm ibex]

actually you keep proving all the time how little you actually play the game as carnivore

[celest copper]

This is what I am referring to

[dusky surge]

it takes 5 hours, actually less since you have a 120% growth bonus

[hollow canyon]

to make sure they don't log you out

[hollow canyon]

well... around 5h+ the perfect diet doesn't last you until you reach full adult

[celest copper]

That is literally the life style of a carniviore

[dusky surge]

And even then, I find myself able to find sufficient nutirients to reach adult before that time

deino is quite literally the safest animal in thegame

idk what the fuck you are doing to get into that much danger as a deino

but i'd recommend refining your strategies

[celest copper]

That bonus doesn't even apply to a bonus, it take 5hrs if you have a perfect diet al the way through, another point proven

[dusky surge]

the only animal safer to grow, imho, is ptera

[celest copper]

I play carnivore more than you might think

[golden coral]

Not during growth. And you can play safe as grown carni too, just like you can play dangerously as herbi

[hollow canyon]

4h32 minutes iirc

[dusky surge]

atm, stego is infinitely harder to grow animal than deino

[golden coral]

And yet..

[dusky surge]

fuck man, a teno is harder to grow than a deino imho lmao

[celest copper]

That is what I am stating in my feedback, why play carnivore when you can grow a herbivore to adult without engaging anyone. And take the place of a carnivore by pvping anyone?

[celest copper]

It isn't lol

[dusky surge]

you can grow a carnivore without engaging someone as well

it's so easy

[celest copper]

Maybe as a deino, with the extended time of one and a half hours

[dusky surge]

as any carnivore

the fact you have so much trouble with it is honestly shocking

[hollow canyon]

herbivores' offensive capabilities are arguably quite a bit worse than those of carnivores though

[dusky surge]

it's honestly extremely rare for me to die as a growing carnivore unless i'm actively looking for trouble

[celest copper]

I never stated that I had trouble in growing a carnivore or herbivore

[celest copper]

Not at all, hence why there is so much mix-packing

[hollow canyon]

I do think that there's a higher risk of dying of starvation as a carnivore than as a herbivore to be perfectly honest but in general carnivores take less effort to grow than herbivores - on the current patch that is

pretty sure it will be the reverse after update 5 comes out and nerfs carnivores

[celest copper]

herbivores have grazing if you starve then I don't know what to say

If you are saying it takes less effort to grow a carnivore compared to a herbivore, then you don't know the difference

[hollow canyon]

mixpacking sorts that issue out though, when you have different herbivores grouping with one another, they can actually go on the offensive since they have other packmates that can keep track of their targets and slow them down

[hollow canyon]

I mean yea - that's why it's harder to die of starvation as one

[celest copper]

I'm talking about stegos and carnos mix-packing, carnivores and herbivores, it is annoying

[hollow canyon]

Carnivores can die of starvation but acquiring perfect diet which lets you grow at full speed is easier on them

[hollow canyon]

I find herbivores mixpacking with one another just as annoying

I dont see a difference between carno mixpacking with stego or pachy mixpacking with stego

same garbage as far as I'm concerned

[celest copper]

You do understand that a perfect diet doesn't last as long as you guys claim it does? right?

[dusky surge]

it lasts pretty fucking long

[celest copper]

Because they have the same diet base

[celest copper]

Not at all, at least for carnivores

[dusky surge]

i have no idea what version you're doing

[celest copper]

0.8.82.01

[hollow canyon]

it lasts exactly as long as I say it does - until 88% of growth on Deino

if you claim otherwise you are just wrong

[celest copper]

Last time I checked it didn't

It starts deteriorating at 60%

[hollow canyon]

you're wrong then and checked it badly

[celest copper]

goes to great at 63%

[hollow canyon]

you were playing the game wrong then because it lasts until almost 90% when you do it correctly

[azure hinge]

Yeah it can last until almost 90%

[hollow canyon]

It does

88% was the exact number when I lost the perfect diet when I did it in the most optimal way

[azure hinge]

But yeah that's something not everyone cares about I think the current diet system was just badly implemented

[hollow canyon]

it was badly implemented

if people use it badly and that causes them to struggle more than they should though - that's on them

[golden coral]

It does take less effort to grow a carni compared to herbi.

[hollow canyon]

...for now

they are getting a change that should completely reverse that so

[azure hinge]

I mean I wouldn't blame anyone that is just playing the game, evrima is very unbalanced and not always enjoyable right now

[golden coral]

But it does last very long, all the way to grown for utah almost.

[azure hinge]

Yeah Herbie s are not fun I refuse to grow them right now for that reason

[hollow canyon]

I grow both, both are trash to play

[azure hinge]

But I have to say playing carnivore also does not feel like a carnivore

[hollow canyon]

it indeed doesnt

hunting is just awful with diets

feels like shopping in a supermarket and not actually hunting

[azure hinge]

I mean you just are so afraid of so many herbi's too

The diet system is just bad cause probably not enough dinos in the game yet

[hollow canyon]

no, it's just bad in general - for carnivores that is

for herbivores it's bad because the map is just awful and the nutrient plants are placed abysmally

[azure hinge]

Yeah and feels so spread apart so when you're baby basically impossible

[hollow canyon]

not impossible but it's 15 minutes of staring at your animal just run in a straight line

the quintessence of TI gameplay

[azure hinge]

Yeah I've done it a couple times

Just so horrible

Like I used to love playing triceratops in the old game but they fit so much better as a strong herbi

Very slow but very strong

The Herbies in evrima are all fast and strong in terms of abilities and damage

[urban birch]

@celest copper as of right now the game is very carni sided. You get free growth if you play smart and go to say the beach for instance to survive off turtles. The only op herbi is stego. The others it’s just a matter of dodging and patience. Carno runs through pachy and teno you just can’t tank them. And you can’t run blindly into a full herd of them. This is ofc until update five and carno gets the much deserved nerf.

[hollow canyon]

Yea Carno isn't getting much of a nerf in update 5, I hate to break it to you

it's just a nerf to how carnivore diets work

and a fix to its ridiculous xenomorph-jaw bite

where it gets to sometimes hit a target from a yard away based on how you angle your camera

Tenonto does just fine vs Carno for the most part

but it is getting a small buff to its stamina cost on both the kick and the tailslam

Stegosaurus isn't exactly op either, it's simply the strongest terrestrial animal at 6t in weight, its tankiness is relatively low compared to most other animals in that class but it makes up for that by having an amazing damage output that puts to shame anything else

it's exactly where it's supposed to be pretty much

so is Carno, Tenonto and Deino

the only animals that need some serious changes are Utah and Pachy but hopefully they can be sorted out as time goes on and the devs slowly work on these two

[dusky surge]

U5 carno will literally have only a few major differences

• Less powerful tracking (applies to all carnis)
• Less of an easy street to adulthood through diets (also applies to all carnivores, although is more impactful for larger carnivores like deino and carno)
• Bleeds out more heavily (will really only matter in long fights v teno or utah)
• Fixed bite hitbox (more of a bugfix than a balance change)

U5 more brings other animals in-line with carno, rather than nerfing the shit out of it

As can be seen in the plethora of utah changes

[verbal zenith]

yeah Utah packs are threats now again

brings me joy

[old hull]

good , now you might actually have to use your brain to play carno

so basically 95% of carno players are now no longer a threat

[dusky surge]

its more that other animals stand a better chance of fighting against a carno

as far as i'm aware, very little otherwise has changed for carno

teno and carno matchups were very even, so seeing carno nerfed too hard would be really bad for the balance (especially since teno is getting EVEN STRONGER this patch with stam buffs)

[old hull]

its moreso in the current live version there are so many inconsistancies with attacks , or certain ones being flat out weak (looking at you teno)

those being fixed plus those tiny tweaks to carno will make it alot less infuriating to die to one

them being alot harder to grow also will curb down those damn megapacks so you might actually get a fight instead of getting run over by 40 carnos

[azure hinge]

I think speed of dinos and the power that some have is just very off

[dusky surge]

i do think megapacks will get a huge hit with the diet changes

[old hull]

its still a braindead dumdum dino and il always make fun of it but hey atleast it can actually die now

[azure hinge]

Like stego s turn radius and stamina sustain is so strong

[dusky surge]

sometimes a game needs a braindead dumb dumb character, and that's okay

[old hull]

true but having said dumbdumb class being stupid strong is gonna be super annoying , why would a new player put time into learning tenonto when you can just pick carno and do what it does easier

its like the assault rifle in halo infinite , its so reliable and easy to use why bother use anything else

[azure hinge]

Then pachy head butt is wild especially not to mention if they mix pack to head butt disorient then run away with fast speed which gives free reign to any stronger slower dino to come and attack something they usually can't attack

[old hull]

point is im happy with the changes , now pls dont buff carno again devs lol

[hot bluff]

are you admin/developer? hope not!! hug

[golden coral]

No, but he's still pretty accurate on how it works from what it ooks.

So not sure what you think you're arguing :p

[hollow canyon]

Teno's attacks are anything but weak

[hollow canyon]

You can read the balance changes for update 4 and 4.5 yourself or just test it in the game

[azure crescent]

300 N is nothing to scoff at

[hollow canyon]

each CC attack has a period where it cannot be applied again

for Pachy it's allegedly somewhere between 5 and 10 seconds

Pachy does not repeatedly CC a Utahraptor, it just CCs it once and then mauls it

[hot bluff]

I'm giving suggestions on what's NOT IN THE GAME and what can be improved. I don't care about what's in the game.

[hollow canyon]

You can argue that it's too Pachy favoured

[hollow canyon]

""utah vs packy" , "packy" hits a headbutt, knocks "utah" down, who can't get up because "packy" hits a spam of 5 more headbutts in 2 seconds, is it supposed to be stupid like that or is this going to be fixed?"

That sounds like you saying what's in the game right now

I'm telling you that you are wrong

because you are wrong, that's not how this match up works

[hot bluff]

so why did a packy hit me 3 or 4 times while i was still on the knock out? go read a book, and let the game developers see that.

[hollow canyon]

because the CC lasts that long

if it wasn't attacking you it would take you just as long to get up

[hot bluff]

Go read a book! It's simple, I don't want to know how this stupid mechanic works. I say it's wrong. I can't have an adult Utah vs an adult packy. receive a headbutt and die for it.

[hollow canyon]

Yea, you're not meant to be receiving a headbutt

and Idk what kind of book got you to misunderstand so badly how the game works but ngl you should ask for a refund, I most certainly wouldn't want to be reading it

[hot bluff]

go read a book or sleep. stop answering everything here, as if you were someone responsible for the game. let the people in charge read and do their work.

[hollow canyon]

The people in charge do read the suggestions in that channel, but they aren't going to answer you in here

they sometimes take a look in here too

not that your suggestion actually says anything productive

[azure crescent]

my man that is the point of this channel lmfao

[golden coral]

Well yes, this is the discussion channel for the feedback, so.. :p

[hollow canyon]

you don't propose any changes aside from saying "omg dis no work, fix fast!!!"

[azure crescent]

"I don't want to know how it works. I say it's wrong"
literally the definition of ignorance

[hollow canyon]

well to be perfectly honest at this point it's evolved into stupidity, it was ignorance when he first made the feedback but I've already explained that it's not how it works, he just decides to ignore it at this point

[azure crescent]

yeah

[hollow canyon]

in general - make some suggestion what should be done about it for that to be a constructive feedback - what is the solution that you suggest? To take away Pachy's ability to knock a Utah down?

[azure crescent]

explains the mechanic in a wrong way
gets corrected
"i don't want to know how this works, i say it's wrong"

[hot bluff]

I'm a dinosaur, I need to be ignorant. Or does everyone here have to have a sweet little heart? don't you accept people with stronger personality among you?

[azure crescent]

we do accept, which is we we tried to help you by correcting you

not we, aken did because i wasnt here then lol

[hollow canyon]

Suggest what they should do about Pachy vs Utah. You didn't say anything that would help the devs balance it out.

Should Pachy deal less damage so that Utah has a better chance of getting up after the knockdown?

Should Utah not get knocked down after being attacked by Pachy?

What is your solution?

Utah is a bit on the weaker side as you pointed out, for what it's worth - it IS getting a buff on the next update.

[azure crescent]

if we didn't accept you we would just be cursing at you n stuff

[hot bluff]

Utah has to get up faster. And the "Pachy" that hit me probably then used some hack, because after the first hit. He hit me 3 or 4 more hits when I was still on the ground, so I died without being able to "do anything".

[azure crescent]

that's not really a hack, it's just that he probably went up to you and did the alt swing on your head

which admittedly, is annoying

[hollow canyon]

It's not a hack, Utah just gets up that "fast"I mean that slow and yea - add that to your feedback. Say that Utah should get up faster after being knocked down. That's something worth discussing.

[golden coral]

What?.. What is that supposed to even mean?

[hollow canyon]

@hot bluff Carno and Deino bites have been fixed too

[azure hinge]

I mean Utah should be able to it maneuver stuff like pachy but it doesn't

Out maneuver

[hot bluff]

Feedback: -1) Fix the interval atack of some animals. ("Carno", "Packy") I know of these.
("Carno", has faster attacks than "Utah", which is a smaller dino. Do the tests and see)

2. "Utah" get up faster after a knockout by "Packy", who is a dinosaur basically your size or smaller. It's acceptable to stay knocked out longer, if it were a bigger dinosaur.

3. "Carno", always finds and captures with ease and ranges bug all puppies and smaller dino in bite.

4. Review possible dinosaurs with greater ranges than normal (Carno, Deino) I know of these.

5. Create a "System" window next to the chat. Providing the following information: -Damage hit/Received, -Which party hit, -Identify voice calls from party members. (For those who are not REQUIRED to play on discord, this will help a lot for players to locate themselves, who is calling, and in need of some help or something).

PS: My impression is that only Utah has been fixed. The rest of the dinosaurs all have some sort of problem, and so it seems to be the weakest dinosaur in the game. /

[hollow canyon]

Yea, that's a much better feedback

greater ranges than normal have been fixed on the stress test according to what the devs and stress testers have said it seems

[azure crescent]

so glad the carno bugs have been fixed

[hot bluff]

ok

[azure hinge]

They won't add a damage window not even optional

[hot bluff]

Best of all would be, ban on who uses Reshade. There are some who find you when you are totally hidden. without any bleeding. they go directly to you. most of them use the "Carno" NA1 server

[azure hinge]

Can't ban for reshade it's impossible to get that information

I don't like it either but it is what it is

[hollow canyon]

Those are hackers most likely

There's a hack which iirc works by giving them a marker with your name above you and a line that shows where you are

they basically know where you are at all times

there are also infinite stamina hacks and some others

those people most commonly go for Carno since Carno with infinite stamina that knows where its opponent is becomes by far the most broken animal

since in normal circumstances you abuse the fact that it can't find you in the foliage and woods + its low stamina to get away from it, when you take away these two weaknesses Carno becomes awfully oppressive

and hacks do just that, they've been a plague in this game since like update 3

[hot bluff]

for me, who am new to the game, encountering these hackers, discourages me a lot, some mechanics I learn and understand, others I don't accept. I don't allow a dinosaur to hit several attacks in a few seconds, to make a strong blow, it takes a while to concentrate. And dinosaurs of the same size, can't eliminate each other with just one hit, we can admit that comparing a T-Rex vs Utah, that's acceptable to be killed with just one bite, in the torso or head.

[hollow canyon]

Tbh I don't necessarily disagree withe the premise of what you're saying there

As for hackers: if you see an instance like that - someone just spotting you when they shouldn't, you should tag the "official server admin" role here on discord in the channel of the official server where it happened.

Those people are actually pretty good at dealing with hackers in my experience.

They won't give you your dino back, but they will ban the person who was hacking.

[hot bluff]

I don't need to know people's names on top of their dinosaurs. But when I get an "attack" I should be able to identify the name of the one who attacked me and the part of my body that hit me. This besides being useful for me to learn how to fight, to know who is a possible hacker. that only hits the head, for example. So I will have the name of the person to pass the complaint. PS:
Or for example those who use reshade, or this other type of hacker. Who always kill you in secret, or capture babies. We will know their name, if they create the system tab, with information.

[hollow canyon]

They won't allow that - the part about the names and which body parts got hit by whom

The devs specifically deleted even the playerlist so that you have more trouble knowing against whom you're playing on a server

[hot bluff]

Why does this information have to be taken from me? Nobody will know who it is. We cannot make a friend request if they are animals of another species. all this will remain. But after it happens, what's the problem with knowing who's attacking me? Maybe if some toxic admin/developer is a "player" and can know everything, and in the players we can't know anything?

[hollow canyon]

Hmmm I think the idea is that people could after specific people and target them or something?

I just remember that they are very much against us knowing who's killing us and all that stuff

[hot bluff]

BUT NO ONE WILL KNOW WHO IS WHO, SPECIFICALLY. ONLY AFTER THE ATTACK (ACTION) HAS BEEN DONE. And in the case of animal calls voice, you will only know who is calling, because it will be in party mode.

[hollow canyon]

I mean you are free to add that to your suggestion but I seriously doubt they would add anything like that to the game based on the track record so far.

[hot bluff]

If you are in party mode, with 5 more friends, and one of them asks for help. You know who it is. No need to be on Discord"

because in the "system" tab there will be the information "XXX emits help call"

If I don't know if I'm getting my head right in attacks, I'll never improve in combat. This is only an advantage for the "old" player. As I will be able to practice and learn if I am on the right path, it is almost an obligation for them to provide me with this information.

[hollow canyon]

I do think that it should perhaps be clearer with regard to what you're hitting but tbh, being an old player and all - I very often have little to no idea what I'm hitting with my attacks

and the locational is all over the place - hits that are supposed to clearly hit the torso end up registering as leg hits and attacks that should land on legs can sometimes hit the body or the tail

[azure hinge]

In all honesty I've never seen a hacker and I've played over 700 hours, maybe once or twice.

[hot bluff]

because you have a sweet and pure little heart

[hasty coyote]

I haven’t seen one myself, but I tend to stay away from official servers, especially rn.
But I have seen many videos of hackers, and I just don’t understand why they do it.

[hollow canyon]

I've seen quite a few, reported at least a couple and the admins pretty much always reacted

[azure hinge]

Idk I don't get killed very often, but I usually play pretty safe

Only take fights I know I can win

[hollow canyon]

Yea you don't decide whether you get to take a fight against hackers, they are the ones that decide that. You can be hidden in the middle of nowhere surrounded by deep forest and hiding in a bush and they will know you are there and come your way to fight you.

[dusky surge]

@topaz elm the idea that a stego should be equal to an allo or a CERA is frankly ridiculous

hell, even the IDEA that cera would predate on stego is ridiculous

prey should usually have the advantage in surviving the fight, however that may be

be it crippling, killing or escaping, the prey should always have a way to outdo the predator

[slim dragon]

What I read is that he basically wants apexes to one-shot each other
9000 damage trike charge let's gooo

[topaz elm]

not what im saying?

[slim dragon]

It sounds like it

[topaz elm]

alright well im saying they should have obvious weakspots that only they can exploit on each other

[slim dragon]

"It can end in a flash"
I don't know how many attacks a trike could deal in "a flash" but I guess it isn't many
So I assume that means trike would one-shot rex in that scenario

[slim dragon]

So they'd be scripted encounters basically ?

[topaz elm]

the idea i was trying to go for is that these apexes would basically have to be incredibly careful when fighting each other, but in hindsight i guess it doesnt do well that trike or rex could instantly kill one another in terms of balance

triceratops could easily pierce through the flesh of the rexes chest cavity and kill it the same way if rex grabbed trikes throat

[slim dragon]

No it doesn't do well at all
Also I don't think it should be a "fair fight" either
The slower one has the advantage in combat, it seems obvious

If trike is slower than rex (which it will probably be) it deserves to have the upper hand in combat

[topaz elm]

how so?

[slim dragon]

Because it can't run away ?

[topaz elm]

alright

[frail bobcat]

"If you cant fight it, run. If you cant run from it, fight."

[topaz elm]

weird quote

[slim dragon]

It's a balancing guideline

[topaz elm]

kinda just makes me sad about legacy anky

[slim dragon]

Forget everything about legacy balance

[topaz elm]

at least the new anky will be able to fightr

[dusky surge]

if new anky was equal in strength to spino like the concept art implies, new anky will also be shit

the idea should always be the animal with the least options to escape in the fight must be the one with the physical advantage

[slim dragon]

Spino should clearly do a lot more damage than anky
But anky should be A LOT tougher

So that spino would need to attack an anky in a situation where it can't defend itself

[dusky surge]

honestly

i dont even think spino should be doing that much more damage

this is an ANKY we're talking about

[slim dragon]

I don't see anky doing a lot of damage either (for its size)
But maybe it could cause AOE fractures
Like you hit someone's head, but the shockwave is so powerful it also breaks their ribs

[old hull]

does the size of anky really matter in that case , its still a huge chunk of bone hitting you in the face

if a midget hits you in the leg with a sledgehammer , your leg is still broken

[slim dragon]

Well a midget couldn't lift a sledgehammer
But I get it

[topaz elm]

just a really buff midget

[gleaming helm]

But I rlly don’t like it how they decrease anky size when in legacy ti was the perfect size

[hasty coyote]

A really buff midget in armor with a sledgehammer.
That seems to summarize anky

[topaz elm]

but things like spino, i'd doubt it, if they got a body fracture spino probably wouldnt be able to flip anky over or it would count as it "broke its arms"

[slim dragon]

According to the concept art they're massively upsizing it

[old hull]

looking at its size in the concept art , it looks fine to me

[slim dragon]

I assume animals who can use their arms may have specific arms fractures

[gleaming helm]

The devs said they decrease there size

[slim dragon]

Dondi said it
And I believe it was a joke

[gleaming helm]

Dondi hates anky so much I think

[topaz elm]

take Dondi's words with a grain of salt, he works 24/7

[old hull]

the devs say many maaaany things , take anything they say with a grain of salt until you actually see it ingame

[hasty coyote]

Anky isn’t apex sized, but it still will be able to deal with them. However, I remember them saying it will likely have more trouble with the smaller dinos that can reach its underbelly.

[slim dragon]

From what I've seen he especially hates people who keep saying he "hates anky" so he just says random shit to piss them off

[topaz elm]

I think anky should be an apex now considering it will be the ultimate form of pachy

[gleaming helm]

Ah so he said it as a joke

[topaz elm]

probably

[gleaming helm]

sh ok to I think for anky the baby should have a small roll effect kinda

[hasty coyote]

It’s like a pseudo apex. Not apex size in weight, but basically equal in power.

[topaz elm]

exactly almost like acro which was treated as a mid tier

[slim dragon]

I think anky is mostly referred to as an apex

[gleaming helm]

We’re not talking about the jw anky right

[slim dragon]

no

[hasty coyote]

Agreed, I have heard that stuff before, and seeing a baby anky rolling down a hill sounds hilarious.

[topaz elm]

why would we talk about jurassic world anky

[slim dragon]

I would love baby anky rolling too

[topaz elm]

like a little armadillo

[gleaming helm]

Look at Utah model than look at Jurassic park raptor skin

[topaz elm]

alright whats your point? people take inspiration from media?

[gleaming helm]

True

[old hull]

not exactly a secret that the isle in general is very jurassic park inspired , the entire premise is pretty close

but its different enough to not just be called a copy paste

[topaz elm]

basically

[azure hinge]

I'm curious I'm not an expert on the topic or really know anything when it comes to unofficial servers, but why doesn't the isle devs encourage unofficial servers to take over a lot of the balancing

Maybe making it easy for them to modify Health, damage, drink speeds, eating speeds, running

Or something like that?

[hasty coyote]

Because then people will complain that X Dino is overpowered when they only play on unofficial. Or you might want to hop on unofficial and instantly die to something that normally doesn’t do anything.

Essentially: it makes it harder for the devs to get accurate info and divides the community more.

[azure hinge]

Hmm I don't know that doesn't seem right. It would really just push people to complain to sever owners instead of devs. Like the devs can balance stuff the best they can and then not worry about it

[hasty coyote]

Have you seen people in this server…
They would just complain here and have no idea about the balancing.

Plus, if the devs can balance out the dinos for officials, then why change it for unofficials?

[azure hinge]

I mean balance is usually a never ending battle as we have seen with every game that has pretty much existed

And I don't think so little of people that they wouldn't understand that unofficial servers have their own balance system in place, especially if the server is popular. Which would most likely become popular because they are more balanced than others and or better communication within that server with their players

[hollow canyon]

Good question, hopefully the server owners can tinker with the stats, growth times and decay rates of everything on their servers.

[obtuse ocean]

sounds awfull, some randoms guys gonna decide whats good and not. They are very well balanced, its the split second you mixpack/herd. It gets unbalanced

you can do that in pot, and u end up spreading the community to thin aswell. everyone wanne play on diffrent servers. Most end up with deathmatch servers and full grown in 20 min

[azure hinge]

That's not my experience with servers from original game at all

[hollow canyon]

Well - it's up to you on what servers you play, if you want to play on the official stats then you are free to play on the official servers

[azure hinge]

Most people go to the top 5 most played servers or which ever has the best community

[hollow canyon]

And yes - the "randoms" that run those servers get to decide how the game works on them

[azure hinge]

Usually the most fair servers are the ones with the best population

For obvious reasons

[hollow canyon]

And yea that part about everyone ending up on deathmatch servers and full grown in 20 minutes just isn't true

[keen plover]

Imo, there should be filters for that. Servers that completely change the balance of the game should be under the modded section or something. Some people enjoy rules with the same balance.

Although having varying balance changes sounds interesting for random servers

[azure hinge]

Well I think the idea behind that is the servers aren't completely different, it would be like the old community unofficial servers. But they just have a little freedom to balance the game to make it more fair ( normally servers with more fairness in balance aggregate to the top of the list, aka more players playing them )

And for category, I mean if you want a more populated server you put what makes your server unique to others in the name like the old unofficial servers

[keen plover]

I think specific filters are better. Kind of like the ones like "no full servers" "no empty" type of deal. I do not want to pick a random server and have to relearn the balance without actually expecting it. If the server is completely different balance wise, I want the choice to turn off or on the ability to see those servers.

[azure hinge]

I think a simpler option is just allow server descriptions in your case

And then sort by popularity so you can see the top servers and look at descriptions

[keen plover]

True tbf

[keen plover]

Hmm, description section would be nice

[silk harness]

@azure hinge Not sure why so many people voted against server owners tweaking stats. I think it's a good idea and would curb the frustration so many people have been feeling during this 6 month wait for new balance changes. I do agree servers should have some way of displaying the changes in-game or in the server browser, but otherwise it would be a good change. Besides, it's almost inevitably going to happen anyways once mod support finally becomes a thing. But it would be nice to see it sooner and with greater ease of access.

[azure hinge]

Yeah that's kind of how I see it too, kind of a win win for players and developers in that respect

[dusky surge]

it's exactly right. I used to work for a multiplayer game with heavy server modification. The amount of complaints I would get about a balance change I didn't make or a feature I didn't have was frankly extremely dumb. I hate the idea because of that experience

it also created a hefty sense of server host entitlement and I found server hosts often ended up with inflated egos, which was another annoying addition

[azure hinge]

That's interesting

[hollow canyon]

I don't doubt there would be people complaining about balance on community servers being off but that isn't enough of an argument not to do that in my opinion.

[keen plover]

True. I think as long as they explicitly announce to players that they have different balance to the officials - via Server title / description or whatever, that should be enough. Also like others have said, mods will probs change balance by adding different things anyway.

[fresh laurel]

https://youtu.be/7edCS4PQ0QM?t=208

the knockdown actually looks like utah has a chance for mistakes if no leg break

[obtuse ocean]

as you said, you joined the top 5 servers. cus they had best community. Well most of those got popular cus they had free growth (tons of that before they got popular) and if you played there you earned points to buy dinos so you didnt need to grow them. And people could even pay real money to earn more points.

[hollow canyon]

That's... not why they got popular at all. There were no free growths on either of the large servers on legacy - Nycta, Asura, Teutonic, Nublar, Pangaea.

[obtuse ocean]

I mean are u just lying to be correct or something ? I got tons of free growth on nycta/teut, cus of events etc. And most could just buy a dino without growing.

[hollow canyon]

Yea but "buying" means it's not free

[obtuse ocean]

It is free, you play the game. And you get points, people would rather play there and get a free dino.

[hollow canyon]

I've never gottena nything free on any server - I guess aside from Pangaea where they were celebrating something and just randomly gave free growths to everyone. The idea that people swarmed to those servers just because there were events there that allowed you to bypass growth is ridiculous.

[hollow canyon]

That's a new thing, initially when those servers were just getting started you had to either pay them money to get those points or(later on) type in some commands in an appropriate channel.

The thing where you get points for playing started in like... 2020?

All those servers were very large at that point already.

The idea that this is what got them to be so big is absurd.

[obtuse ocean]

I started back in 2018 and i could get points then

[hollow canyon]

Yes you could get points in 2018 - by typing in commands.

You weren't getting them for playing on a server. Definitely not on Asura, Pangaea and Nublar

I don't remember that being a thing on Nycta in 2018 either. Idk about Teutonic since I started to play on it later on.

[obtuse ocean]

No i stuck with nycta and teutonic, but there i dont even think i needed to grow a dino . Cus of the point system, i did it tho. Cus i liked the growing part

[hollow canyon]

I didn't like it but I don't like getting dinos for free and I'm stingy with my points so I pretty much always grow my dinosaurs.

[obtuse ocean]

But noone cared if they died, since you had free dino neways. Look at teut server in pot, its trippel growth time.

[hollow canyon]

When i was starting I definitely wasn't getting any free grows on any of the servers.

[obtuse ocean]

i mean 3 times as fast

[hollow canyon]

Idk about PoT I only play on officials there

And again - if people gave the money to the server to have a "free grow" which was a thing in the beginning then that grow was anything but free imo. Matter of fact that seems less free than just growing your own dinosaur at least to me.

[obtuse ocean]

You could pay money and get 2x dinos for same amount, and get twice the points etc.

[hollow canyon]

Well my point exactly - you'd have to pay the money(although again I don't remember ever getting any points for free on Nycta).

[obtuse ocean]

I just checked what i have now, without even playing. i could go in and buy 4 rexes

[hollow canyon]

Yea well it's "now" those servers have been a thing before I even started to play the game.

and the ability to get dinos for free hasn't always been there

My point is that this isn't what got them to be big.

[obtuse ocean]

Well it is now, and its been for years.

[hollow canyon]

Well yes but it isn't why they got so big.

[obtuse ocean]

We started there cus everyone told us to , cus they got free dinos for playing more or less. And peole dont wanne play on empty servers

[hollow canyon]

No? I just started there because I wanted to check out a different kind of playstyle than officials offered.

[obtuse ocean]

Hence all the servers with free growth(events etc) point system got popular

[hollow canyon]

I first played on officials for around 500+ hours and then moved on to check Pangaea, then I tried Nycta and a few others. Body down was not to my liking but it was a major reason why a tonne of people chose servers like Nycta, Nublar and Teutonic

No, that's not why they got popular, most of those were popular because:
A/ they had global chat unlike officials
B/ They had rules that people liked

[obtuse ocean]

I was there because of rules, body down etc.

[hollow canyon]

Well exactly as was almost everyone else

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, and then i realsied you got points, and we never looked back on those who didnt

[hollow canyon]

I couldn't care less about points, there are servers where you can't utilise those points and people play on them still

iirc Asura 7 doesn't allow you to buy your dinosaurs there - it was still full last I was on Legacy.

[obtuse ocean]

They play on them, but they are mostly dead.

[hollow canyon]

that is just absolutely and completely not true

last I've been on legacy the "grow-only" Asura server was the most popular one

[azure crescent]

no server should make you buy content that is free

[dreamy fiber]

This is not my experience but not many Pvp games modify this for obvious reasons.

That said, it might not be inherently bad within a given range for the animal so you can't have something like troodon one-tapping stego haha

That said, even if it was implemented it would never remove the need for balance anyway since official servers still need to reflect the intent of the game as envisioned by the devs.

[azure hinge]

@obtuse ocean yeah no I never used any free growths, mostly were the best because their rules and moderation

And honestly idc if servers let people buy growth I just care that it is well moderated

People that want to skip the 3 or 5 hours of growing is fine with me. I rather enjoy the growing part of the game, it doesn't take long

But I think that stood apart each server was definitely how good their rules were like if I look at your discord logs

I could find at least 5 things you have complained about that was fixed by multiple different unofficial servers rules

Pretty much every good survival game, ark, rust, minecraft, valheim, all have rules and many different types of servers

That is kind of the charm of survival games is to play them how you want

[analog mirage]

The issue is that with things like diets the need for body down rules can’t apply anymore as a Carnivore you need 3 nutrients

And some other rules like 3 calling before an engagement are stupid af

At the end of the day it’s up to the players to give good sportsmanship or just be a asshole

[proper sundial]

I noticed as a raptor it can be hard to fit the diet because not to many people play hypsi or dryo

[analog mirage]

The main issue with a fear factor is that would cause issues with long duration hunts and there isn’t really a way to code a game to tell the difference between players being next to each other and them attempting to hunt each other

Or simply something trying to feed off of scraps of other kills

[dreamy fiber]

Mmm but the game can tell if you hit another player. Arguably, if you kept track of who hit who over a certain duration the game could feasibly be told when and when not to induce fear.

The is of course, still able to be navigated around if people are williglng to attack others to avoid the penalty, but if the tradeoff is thst they would be weakening members of their own group since every carnivore/herbivore would need to have an exchange.

But also this should really only apply to animals of your sameisj weight or those that are larger than you that cause fear I mean. A hyosi shouldn't cause fear in a Carno but it should the other easy round.

So the Tldr is it's possible but I think most systems could be circumnavigated. That said I don't require solutions to be perfect if they would just dissuade enough for it to be less of a problem

[hasty coyote]

The issue with that is longer hunts. Such as a pack of raptors hunting a shant would likely get the debuff because they can't kill it fast enough and have to be VERY careful of when they attack.
So there is likely not a good middle ground between stopping mixpacks and stopping hunts.

[hollow canyon]

Tbh while I am in favour of rules I am not in favour of body down rule. There were multiple servers on legacy that offered different kind of gameplay due to their different rule sets. Even the officials had some minor rules.

[dawn kindle]

unless you could fit four people pouncing on one? 4x the bleed its risky but high reward

[azure hinge]

I mean currently the game doesn't have the best support for unofficial servers or content, it's the main reason why they aren't popular atm. But just like the main game they will become the dominant servers just like any survival game

Especially since I believe the devs said they wanted it mod friendly but I'm not 100% sure about that, it's been a while since I've heard anything about that stuff

[hollow canyon]

@wet pollen That would actually be really bad unless they also increase the nutrients that you have at the start of the game.

[wet pollen]

increasing food and nutrients would be good. or at least increasing the spawn of AI. I am so tired of spawning in with 10% food and not being able to find anything to eat.

and dying because of it

[hollow canyon]

I wouldn't mind that but I'm pretty sure the devs aren't going to change that unless there's a bit outcry from the community.

The reason why these are so low is so that you have to put in some "work" into growing from the moment you spawn in.

They want you to be running after your nutrients from the get-go.

[wet pollen]

Ok well then why don't they put things in that you can hunt?

[hollow canyon]

Rather than have you chill out in the very beginning and take it slow/wait for the nutrients to go down before you make your move.

Well the AI is already in there and that's kind of what we're supposed to be hunting.

[wet pollen]

ive been in game for like 20 mins or however long it takes you to die from hunger, and ive seen TWO AI. that's it.

so they should either put in more AI or fix the beginning hunger/nutrient

I understand having to put in work to grow but I think having two AI spawn in a GIANT grassland is kind of ridiculous and unrealistic anyway

like, ive seen one boar and one deer. that's it.

[hollow canyon]

Hmmm... I'm not going to argue against putting more AI in but in general you probably have to just learn their spawn points.

[wet pollen]

where is that info?

[hollow canyon]

Mind taking it to DMs so that I can perhaps help you out a little bit with how to feed your carnivore upon spawning in?

[wet pollen]

sure

[hollow canyon]

It's not... "available" like that

in general, the devs want you to sort of naturally learn things and so on but well

[azure hinge]

I know unofficial servers on main game usually have buffed AI spawn rates @wet pollen

[hollow canyon]

It's about Evrima

and no, there are no buffed AI spawn rates anywhere

a lot of servers make such claims but they are just outright lies

you cannot change the spawn rates of AI in legacy

[azure hinge]

Yeah you right that must've been people saying it

[hasty coyote]

Well, when a single attack will just turn you to mush, it’s kinda hard to pounce large things. So generally the preferable strategy is to pounce one at a time to keep the prey bleeding. Once it wastes enough stam or stops swinging everywhere, then you want to try and go for the kill.

So for large packs of smaller predators attacking large prey, having a debuff for anything nearby that isn’t attacking could affect the hunt by forcing the predators to rush or get debuffed. Then, if it’s too lenient to allow predators to hunt large prey, it will likely not hinder mixpacking enough to be worth the effort.

[dawn kindle]

Sorry i dont understand what you mean by debuff?, I wasn't looking at context earlier.

[hasty coyote]

My original message was explaining why a “stress system” wouldn’t work well. Essentially, the idea is that if you stay too close to a herbivore without attacking as a carnivore, you and maybe the herbivore gets a debuff. That way mixpacking is unviable.

My main issue with it is that it’s either going to too impactful and hurt a lot of hunting strategies, or be too weak and not stop mixpacking.

[dawn kindle]

oh okay to stop mix packing. So you are looking at ways to stop mixpacking ?

[hasty coyote]

Yeah he was suggesting a way to stop it, one that has been suggested a lot. However, I believe the “stress system” wouldn’t work well.

Personally, the best way to minimize mixpacking is with food, diets, and potentially strains in the future. Limiting food makes people less likely to group up because they need to find enough to survive. Diets can be used to spread out certain species that are a problem when together. Lastly, strains like hypos can just kill most the members of mixpacks or force them to scatter.

[fresh laurel]

Limiting food probably wouldnt help since one nutrient is fine and would in the end probably bother non mix packers more. Also relying on hypos might not help since the mixpackers could just respawn if they die or remaining members will find more to mix pack with

So far I see mix packing Carno and etc fine living off ai or some plants

Doesnt help how much a single plant can give so much either

[dreamy fiber]

Food diets and strains wouldn't work.

You have to think about the greater impact on the player base. Limiting food too much creates frustration and when you spend so long investing in your dino, it's a good way to annoy players.

Plenty of people outright ignore diets if the would refer to team up.

And hypos are players in themselves with their own goals. You can't make a hypo do anything. Moreover, the existence of a major threat will just group people more.

That all said, there is no perfect solution to mixpacking. However, whatever solution does exist should be clear in its target intent. Using mechanics with no connection to mixpacking to indirectly address it is fine, but it needs a direct address too. So I'm considerably more in favour of stress or fear.

[balmy harbor]

The trouble with fixing mixpacking is finding a balance.
It's easier with Herb/Herb or Carn/Carn because you can have a simple counter for each dinosaur, and when the dinosaur number goes over the counter both sides get a stacking debuff the more the counter increases. The same with megapacks.
The trouble with this system is mixpacking, because you have to make a proximity and timing filter to go with that so the players have a reasonable chance to react to and drive off the debuffs, but sometimes hunts take a very long time in very close proximity, and if you implement the stress factor again it would have to factor both parties, which could in theory create greater player tension but also runs the risk of greater player frustration.
Offsets to this could be through attacks and damage, but mixpackers and megapackers could find ways around this by having the weakest member biting the strongest member, so then you'd have to make it damage number based, but that wouldn't work if say a few juvi Utah's were hunting a subadult tenonto, as their damage numbers might not reach the threshold. Again this could also be fixed by using the group system, but that also causes problems

[slim dragon]

It doesn't even works with carni/carni and herbi/herbi mixpacks
Because carnis can alsohunt each other (and do so for prolonged times if it involves utahs)
And I see nothing wrong with a ptera flying around a group of carnos or a group of hypsis hanging around a stego herd

[dusky surge]

honestly, some of the coolest moments in this game have come from pteras NOT being utter jackholes and biting me and instead giving me some free fish in my early growth

which is extremely rare for ptera players all things considered since these mfs believe themselves to be quetz-lite

[slim dragon]

The most fun I had as a ptera was feeding fishes to starving carnivores
I felt like I was a superior being taming them

[dreamy fiber]

To be honest as I've said, and I'll always say, there's no perfect solution to mixpacking so hunting for one and focusing on the tiniest details is redundant to me.

Imo mixpacking between carnis/herbs is the biggest issue. It's less of an issue between herb/herb and carn/Carn, even if its not realistic.

You can never fully address mixpacking.

And yes, people will always find a way around it. As long as its not a major exploit thst should be fine. Its whatever. If they're willing to take the debuff or damage from whatever system is in place that's their choice. Whatever system is there only acts as discouragement and a statement not to mixpack.

And frankly long hunts shouldn't be an issue if you just have someone engage in combat. I think this still needs thinking on and talking about more, but I'm pretty sure combat could be used to signal that fear should essentially be switched off - or maybe the fear/stress system may also play a part in combat so thst its more of a fluent and linked feature.

I'm not sure exactly what that would look like yet, but if we think on it we might arrive at something.

[fresh laurel]

now to be fair, you cant expect isle players to not make things have pvp potential when they basically started with pvp

[topaz elm]

@azure crescent just tell me in here, you cant talk in that channel

[azure crescent]

my bad lol

yeah having to look up just to stay safe will end up making you worse at combat, because your model is obstructing your view

[dreamy fiber]

Forcing a dip to raise its head with stamina is kinda bullshit especially fi it would be so weak on the head and probably the neck.
Like, it's a sauropod that holds its neck pretty far down. It's be pretty unfair since it had such very vital spots well within reach basically all the time

[azure crescent]

how is it forced? any dip can just choose not to press alt + rmb

also i'm just basing it off of tommy's idea, that suggested sauropods to have weak ass heads and necks

[dreamy fiber]

I mean that raising its head costs stam and it would absolutely be forced to hold its head higher when confronting almost anything.

They probably should have weak heads but if they need to raise their head, which costs stam, and possibly run, which costs stam, and attack, which costs stam

Well

It won't have any stam left to raise its head without not defending itself. The shape of these animals and the way they carry themselves just isn't very good for having such weak spots - this of course doesn't matter for those that hold their necks vertically, though.

But uh these animals will be facing down taller and nastier predators than they evolved to outsize.

A giga is a massive threat to a dip when it can basically always reach its juggular lol

So the idea of a weak head/neck only really works in the context for those things aren't at constant risk, which just isn't true for suaropods with horizontal necks, but it is for vertical.

[azure crescent]

when confronting almost anything.
no? do you have any idea how tall a bronto or diplo's head is in standard stance?

a utah would need to jump to even get close to it

• diplo and bronto already hold their necks in a diagonal way, not horizontal

[dusky surge]

imo, the neck on the sauropods should be controlled by spacebar and control. Spacebar go up, control go down

[azure crescent]

that's better

i forgot about those

i'd like to see something like an adult brachi just press control to look down on stuff

[topaz elm]

or alternative

sauropods could lock their heads in a certain position for a while

like for a minute before the muscles need to rest giving carnivores an openning

[azure crescent]

not having control over when the position ends is the bad part

i think wavepoole's idea is better because of the simplicity

[slim dragon]

It's the same as tyrant controls in Primal Carnage

[azure crescent]

pretty much

[dusky surge]

yea except i'd honestly make it more complex

hold space for longer, go up higher

hold control for longer, go down lower

[slim dragon]

That would be super weird
That'd be like controlling a crane instead of a living animal

[dusky surge]

so you can get it to trees, water, up elevations, so on

[azure crescent]

to be fair said living animal is like as tall and heavy as a crane

[slim dragon]

It's still a living animal

Teno is as tall and heavy as a car, yet it doesn't move like one

[azure crescent]

that's fair enough

as long as i can elevate and lower my neck as sauropods, i'm good

[slim dragon]

Every animal should have functions to both the spacebar and the crouch button tbh

Like stego entering a "raised tail" stance to hit higher and punish things like rex better

[hasty coyote]

and to not just obliterate its own children

[slim dragon]

Stego obliterating its own children is funny though

[hasty coyote]

it is funny tho, can't argue with that

[azure crescent]

that'd be amazing too

[frail bobcat]

No, sauropods need a crouch

[dusky surge]

why

[frail bobcat]

Do you realise how funny and dumb a crouching sauropod would look like?

Its a good idea what he said

[dreamy fiber]

I do mean almost anything that is a threat. You don't need to take leaps to understand that. I'm not proposing that a troodon could reach given my example was giga.

And yes it is diagonal mr. smart
but it does lean more towards the down side and is very much easily reachable by taller animals and even mediumish ones on a hill.

[azure hinge]

@robust edge the problem with what you are saying, is stego kills deino in the water, other than that i kind of agree

[robust edge]

I mean, slowing or even stopping Stego’s tail swing in the water is another, easier fix

[azure hinge]

uh idk if thats enough tbf

i think its just to easy to abuse stego stuff in the water

just let deino be able to drag it at waterbanks or something

and i dont mean like a full on pull under water

i mean kind of like a knock down stun because it goes after a body bite on legs or head and knocks down the stego

[azure crescent]

mr smart
it's not even nitpicking its a big factor

anyways i get your point and will change it to not waste stam

[fresh laurel]

damn

utah bite buff lets it go from killing carno in 33 hits to 28

(body shots)

19 with head shots 0-0

[fresh laurel]

woah they removed pounce miss endlag

wonder how this plays out

[dusky surge]

they didnt remove it, they just reduced it as far as I've seen

[fresh laurel]

reduced it to the point that it might as well be called removed

either way I guess its because of trees being able to drop utahs now?

more pounce counters = missing pounce is less punishing

[hasty coyote]

@celest copper I agree that pachy’s stun ranges are a bit off, but not to that extent.

Pachy needs those stuns to not be killed after hitting a ram. Without the stuns, pachy can be bit 2x or more while it’s stuck next to the carno, which means it would take over half its health for playing correctly. Pachy is more based on fractures and stuns to cripple their attacker, while not having much raw damage. It also has no option other than to fight the carno since it is faster, so it needs a way to survive the fight.

Carno on the other hand has no reason to stun a stego. Stego is one of the slowest things that will ever be released and carno is likely the fastest. So if carno can stun, it will just ram and run to slowly whittle down the stego. Which is not how carnos are supposed to play at all, that’s raptor’s job. Carnos are specialized in taking down smaller targets quickly, and running from anything they don’t want to deal with.

Also, I’m interested to see what’s going to happen with utahs next patch. They’re probably going to be op, but at least they take skill and won’t be as oppressive as carnos.

[fresh laurel]

You think this pounce change was because of Utah being able to slide off walls again?

Heard that was enabled again

I mean you cant really pounce too long with all the counters so maybe thats a reason, but this could just be them testing different things before release

[frail bobcat]

What happened with the stun?

[fresh laurel]

for utah or...?

[frail bobcat]

Both

[fresh laurel]

so with pachy too?

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[fresh laurel]

Utah has its pounce endlag reduced heavily and pachy im not sure

think its the same

[hasty coyote]

Haven’t seen too much. But pounce was already devastating when it worked. So it working constantly + bite buffs + no pounce delay + less stun duration. Kinda a lot of buffs lol.

[fresh laurel]

though falling off while pouncing is a death sentence still

[frail bobcat]

This is a good addition I think

[fresh laurel]

let the utahs have this moment

[frail bobcat]

Utahs will be high A-Tiers

[fresh laurel]

Utah didnt get love in months

[fresh laurel]

utah vs pachy should be more on utah's favor

anyways hope this update makes stegos fear utah packs

[frail bobcat]

Like in the new update? It is

[fresh laurel]

ye

[frail bobcat]

But still the average pachy wins against the average utah I suppose, otherwise there needs to be a change

[fresh laurel]

Utah kills carno in 19 head shots which is crazy ngl

[frail bobcat]

Pachy and utah will be a LOT stronger now

[fresh laurel]

if utah pounces then pachy has to play defensive from there on

also knockdown duration was reduced

so utah shouldnt lose a huge chunk of hp now....

though if you got leg fractured then you are screwed

[hasty coyote]

I don’t think pachy is going to be too much stronger, just much more specialized in break and runs. Ram (and I think alt attacks too) got damage nerf and stuns too. But it got a fracture damage buff, stam buff, and better turning with ram.

[fresh laurel]

you think pachys will actually break and run against utah now with these buffs?

[frail bobcat]

Fracture buff? Do they last longer now or how do I have to understand this?

[fresh laurel]

dang pachy might be able to run down a utah that just pounced-

[frail bobcat]

Nah

Utahs can easily meme the pachy with outturning

[hasty coyote]

Against utahs and other smalls, you’re probably going to be beat to death unless you can escape. But it’s going to be MUCH harder to beat a carno to death

[fresh laurel]

Dont underestimate a Carno player skill issue

[fresh laurel]

can only work for so long...

[frail bobcat]

You lose basically no stam if you do it right

[fresh laurel]

I swear day one of this update we will see Carno mains start crying about the nerfs

[hasty coyote]

I think they buffed how easily it can apply fractures, but that’s what I have heard. I don’t think the fractures themselves are worse though.

[fresh laurel]

I think they fixed pachy fracture hitbox or something

I wonder how will people approach Teno now that it takes lower tail damage

Teno seems like its gonna be pretty hard to approach when it can hit from all angles

[hasty coyote]

Oh I’m probably still going to beat some carnos to death if I can. But if anything, I’ll just break every bone they got.

[fresh laurel]

I'm ready to vent the anger of broken pounce against Carnos ngl...

[hasty coyote]

I can’t wait to have utahs to send flying with a bash

[fresh laurel]

I mean with these buffs, I'm sure people will touch Utah more again

Poor Ptera got no buffs

just realized Carno ram stun is reduced too

neat

[celest copper]

I didn't read any buffs to any of the carnivores other than the pounce fix

[frail bobcat]

The utah buff was good and the changes to its mechanics

[celest copper]

what was the change

[frail bobcat]

You cant buck and attack right after that there is a small cooldown to other actions

So safer delatches for utah

[celest copper]

oh interesting

[frail bobcat]

I heard

From a couple people

But it would make sense because the bite would be useful again because you can just bite while the prey is bucking and waste no stam at all

[fresh laurel]

WAIT REALLY?!

[celest copper]

I hope so, it would balance the utah raptor for once

[azure crescent]

@pliant patio a pachy shouldn't stun a rex under any circumstance

same for para

para isn't even supposed to headbutt the same way as pachy

it isn't supposed to take things bigger than it

[hasty coyote]

Current pachy’s stun ranges are insane, imagine stunning and fracturing something nearly 20x your weight💀

[pliant patio]

if you hit your head, why not? a 1.5 or 1 second stun is sufficient. The pachy might be on an incline and the T Rex down, and there's a chance to hit a head.

[hasty coyote]

Also, I can understand making headshots stun longer and tail shots not stun at all, but upper and lower torso is going to end up horribly. Our hitboxes are already jankey.

[hasty coyote]

Because Rex is nearly 20x the size and is slower. Pachies should be running from most things bigger than a carno, not fighting apexes.

[pliant patio]

So ok. But it would be fair to them. It is rare for a Packy to hit a Rex in the head.

and it's not 20x, 5, 6x maybe?

[hasty coyote]

It’s not though, Rex’s head is it’s main weapon and would be facing its target.

[hasty coyote]

Rex is like 9 tons iirc, so 18x. Not 2.5 or 3 tons

[pliant patio]

Ok Rex

[hollow canyon]

depends on which Rex you have in mind, the largest ones go well over 10t, Scotty outright reaches 11t last I've heard

[hasty coyote]

Yeah largest rexes are massive, which is even more reason a pachy shouldn't try to touch them. I was just going off what I remember.

[hollow canyon]

Idk why in the world Pachy would even want to get close

[hasty coyote]

Are you trying to imply I'm a rex main or did you just not finish your sentence?
Because I main pachy lmao

[hasty coyote]

current stun ranges are insane, I can't imagine them being 3x as big. If it can stun 9 tons, it would be able to knock down up to 4.5 tons💀

[hollow canyon]

yea no, Pachy's stun threshold will have to be lowered that's for sure

[hasty coyote]

definitely

[elder steppe]

I actually agree with a lot of the stuff said in pesky's videohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WORzahzw4E

[hasty coyote]

I don't for a few main reasons:
What about alt attacks?
What about other mechanics like bone break?
Why would a carno even go near a stego?
What about stamina?

also bleed

[hollow canyon]

A tonne of people have posted that video and that video, despite how much time Pesky claims to have spent on it, simply wasn't very well thought out

[livid spindle]

A 250kg deino of mine was attacked by a newly born Pachy and caused a concussion. My head is bigger than the whole body of that Pach. I don't understand how it does it

[hollow canyon]

Pachy head go brrrr - that's how it does it

[hasty coyote]

If this game was like legacy and you just had to basically stat-check each other, then it would work. But he misses many other mechanics present in this game that can affect combat.

[hollow canyon]

on a serious note, the threshold values for Pachy are just completely all over the place

[hasty coyote]

pachy can stun and break up to 6x its own size, so pachy was about 42 kg at least

[livid spindle]

After I killed it, it was in my mouth

[hasty coyote]

also, I think I remember it being able to give light skull fractures even larger sizes, but I may be misremembering it.

[hollow canyon]

it can skull fracture any animal in the game

it can fracture any animal in the game fullstop

it just takes more time

[hasty coyote]

well it can but it takes multiple hits

[livid spindle]

A stego of nearly 3 tons is enough to deal with a carno, but it has no resistance under Pachy's attack. I don't think it's fair

[hasty coyote]

I think I remember the test where we got the stun thresholds made pachy able to give a light skull fracture on the first hit up to 4.5 tons

[hasty coyote]

it isnt fair, and I believe its a bug currently. It will definitely be changed as more creatures within its size range get added and the devs realize its a problem.

[livid spindle]

I don't think it should be at all. Even if Pachy is made of steel, it will only look like a toy under the huge weight gap

Yes, for example, deino's attack power is too low, but for now, it's no problem, but with the addition of larger predators, deino's attack power will be found to be too weak

[elder steppe]

yeah, i don't remember if he talked about that stuff or if he wants to change what those things do or how they function, but i agree with the numbers. Also do alt attacks do more damage, I was under the impression that they don't for carnivores at least. since it's just biting i think. Also I go near stegos all the time... It's not smart but sometimes it pays off.

[hollow canyon]

depends on the alt attack, Deino's alt bite does the same damage, Carno's/Utah's does more

[pliant patio]

pachys are with short interval attacks, carno is also faster than utah in bites, this has to be revised, spam bites is what happens today.

[hollow canyon]

it's not ^

Carno and Utah have the same attack rate

1 bite/second

[pliant patio]

There's a lot of Carno that floda spam attacks, and not necessarily knowing the right time to bite.

[hollow canyon]

that doesn't make Carno have a faster attack rate than Utah, both have the same attack interval

it's also not that surprising since Carno 's main attack is the bite

[pliant patio]

should Utah be more agile, why would they have the same time? And yes the Carno is even faster, test it first

[elder steppe]

yeah a carno going up against a tiny raptor that feels like its disappearing half the time, I spam with raptors too

[hollow canyon]

Utahs used to spam their bite when Evrima came out too

[hasty coyote]

because they have no other attack, deal enough damage to miss one hit and be fine, it has no stam cost, and it works. Utahs have pounce and rely on it heavily, so you don't see them spamming bite.

[elder steppe]

yep also its harder for them to miss something that is over 3 times it's size

or 2 time.. Just bigger

[hasty coyote]

utah is the most agile thing we have (unless you count dryo) and can pounce to deal damage while not receiving any by what they pounced on.

[pliant patio]

Question for the "geniuses", should utah and carno have the same attack interval? So Rex must also have 1 sec?😂

the most toxic, hope the nerf arrives fast

[elder steppe]

Damn, this is really important to you

[hasty coyote]

So far, most dinos have a 1-sec bite interval. So unless it becomes an issue later, most will likely continue having the 1-sec bite interval.

[pliant patio]

this a question is important for the game, the balance, you stupid

[elder steppe]

and your mad, but if everything has a 1 sec bite interval, I don't really care

[pliant patio]

😂

good thing you're not a game developer 🙏

[elder steppe]

I mean yeah, don't know how to do the coding wizardry, but your the only person i have seen who has been obsessed with this. Plus, im starting to think you're a bit more toxic than the Carnos you took a screenshot of.

[pliant patio]

you need a girlfriend, so you forget about me a little. Bye bye

[elder steppe]

Looks like i hit it on the head lol

[hollow canyon]

like the game developers that made pretty much every animal have that attack interval?

Not to mention - Carno is actually reliant on biting stuff

for Utah it's more a niche attack compared to its pounce

and idk how fast Rex is going to be biting

Deinosuchus is the only really large carnivores atm and it bites significantly slower than the rest of the roster

the fastest bite belongs to... Stegosaurus of all things for some goddamn reason

Carno doesn't need to have its bite slowed down, it's a far more manageable animal on the Stress test apparently

[elder steppe]

My honor has been restored.. HORAH is say HORAH

[hollow canyon]

pretty much every other animal got a buff and Carno got some fixes and slight nerfs

so it might be either balanced or maybe even slightly on the weaker side, I will have to see how big of a hit its bleed resistance actually took

[azure crescent]

he says he spent a lot of time, but it isn’t very well thought out

[elder steppe]

i can understand that, can't iron everything out in a day

[azure crescent]

yeah that’s fair

[hollow canyon]

yea he would cause Tenonto and Carno to be gods, Deino would be really broken too, Stego most likely just bad again, Pachy would be utter garbage with the changes he proposes

[azure crescent]

mentioning alt attack values would be amazing too but he didnt from what i remember

[azure crescent]

how would he change pachy again?

[hollow canyon]

he wanted to butcher its damage - which would be alright vs Carno but it would cause it to be fodder vs Utah

[azure crescent]

thats awful

[elder steppe]

oof

[hollow canyon]

well I think that Pachy should be fracturing Carno and getting way from it, I think Pesky had a similar thing in mind but he didn't about the Utah match up when he proposed those changes to Pachy

you'd basically have a Utah that hits harder now and you'd have to ram it multiple times to kill it, meanwhile it pounces you once and you're just screwed

just not a good match up with Pesky's numbers

Stego vs Deino would be also a big oof

decreasing the health pools of both makes it more Deino favoured

[elder steppe]

oh, I would think that a hit that could fracture carno, could almost one shot raptors, specially since they are glass cannons

[hollow canyon]

which... I mean I guess Deino could stand a slightly better chance but I think it would have too good of a chance vs STego with those changes

[azure crescent]

yeah most of the relevant matchups are butchered in the carnivore’s favor, which depending on the situation, is bad

[hollow canyon]

idk how blunt damage(the thing that determines whether a fracture occurs or not) works exactly in the game so can't comment on that

[hollow canyon]

Teno would probably be better vs Carno than it was in update 4 tbh

with his changes

[azure crescent]

that is true

but U5’s balance changes so far seem like a huge step up

[hollow canyon]

Carno and Tenonto would in general be the big winners of those changes

[elder steppe]

What is U5

[hollow canyon]

...and they're my two favourite animals sooo... I should technically welcome that but yea I do think the game would actually not be very well balanced

[azure crescent]

update 5

[hollow canyon]

Update 5

[elder steppe]

oh gotcha

when's that coming out anyway

[hollow canyon]

Only Lord Voodoo knows I guess

[elder steppe]

AND TRUER WORDS HAVEN'T BEEN SPOKEN SINCE

LuciferHellPk just messaged me Fucking bitch stop crying lol

[mental roost]

Ah: good ol Islecord moment

[elder steppe]

He told me to forget about him like 20 min ago too, so it's even funnier

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350416831709314/994378436955095203

[stark knoll]

DM me a screenshot of that please

[elder steppe]

tell me how and i will

[mint rain]

carno just goes chomp chomp chomp chomp chomp chomp chomp chomp chomp until it gets you

[mental roost]

I think you just right click on the name of the person you want to message and hit the message option?? Cannot confirm.

[mint rain]

the sound effect keeps me up at night

[elder steppe]

yep figured it out, it's pretty funny, do you all think i can post a picture here or nah

[mental roost]

I imagine not??

[hasty coyote]

prob not

[elder steppe]

ah one can only hope

[mental roost]

DM me though if you're fine with it; my curiosity burns

[fresh laurel]

Curiosity, a human's weakness

@pliant patio the way you worded that suggestion is a bit weird imo

[mental roost]

Curiosity killed the Warmonger

[fresh laurel]

mhm

[hollow canyon]

the wording is the least of the issues with that suggestion

[fresh laurel]

I cant even understand what they are suggesting

[hollow canyon]

I envy you

[fresh laurel]

whats wrong with it

[hollow canyon]

I understood it and the moment I did I felt like my braincells all decided to commit a ritual mass suicide

[hollow canyon]

oh boi, what isn't wrong with it? The guy suggests attack cooldowns on animals that last 2-3 seconds

[fresh laurel]

for biting?...

[hollow canyon]

He suggests that Pachy should only be CCing Carno if it hits "upper back" or "head"

Yes, for biting

[fresh laurel]

3 SECONDS FOR REX??

[hollow canyon]

Yes, indeed

[fresh laurel]

💀

[hollow canyon]

Deino already feels absurdly slow and its bite cooldown is "ONLY" 1.5 seconds

[fresh laurel]

and they want Utah to be that

wait how do you hit the upper back of carno as pachy

carno is too tall-

[hollow canyon]

I mean... good question

As I said that whole suggestion is just pure comedy

[fresh laurel]

wait people actually want rex to take 3 seconds to bite...

[hollow canyon]

and note that it has more upvotes than downvotes

then again after I saw two contrdictory suggestions get upvoted by the same people I don't think anything will surprise me

[fresh laurel]

Rex is going to die to giga or possibly acro with a cooldown like that

[fresh laurel]

which suggestions?

[hollow canyon]

Oh, I'm not looking them up now but it was something about weight and how that should and shouldn't have effect on stuff, one suggestion said it shouldn't affect all the things it affects right now and the next one said that it should affect all the things it affects now - both of them were widely upvoted and some people upvoted both despite the fact that they were pretty much contradictory.

It's a good thing the devs don't pay attention to the upvoted and down votes

but I guess it makes people feel like they have a say or something so idk

[fresh laurel]

would be nice if devs pinned suggestions they liked ngl

anyways how do you end up liking 2 different suggestions that are the opposite of each other.... 🤨

thats like liking a suggestion that says nerf teno kick damage while liking another that says buff it

[grave veldt]

This is actual insanity lol

[hasty coyote]

not to mention, he wants pachy to be able to stun a rex, something 20X its size.

[dusky surge]

dude did that lucifer guy just call PARA a new headbutt specialist

the fucking animal with the hollow skull

[hasty coyote]

and pachy to stun a rex

[dusky surge]

incredible

his balance wizardy know no equal

[hasty coyote]

it is... an interesting take.

[dusky surge]

i also liked his random insane outburst of hostility

because of mild disagreement

[mental roost]

Oh it was much worse than what was shown, rip

[fresh laurel]

NO

[hasty coyote]

heres the thing, if we scale up pachy's current stun/knockdown ratio to stun a 9 ton rex, pachy could knock down up to 4.5 tons

[fresh laurel]

[hasty coyote]

yet he still wants it to only stun carno with a head or upper body hit

[azure crescent]

what the hell LOL

[hasty coyote]

yeah if you notice, he isnt in the server anymore.

[azure crescent]

dude for real left a whole server because someone disagreed that para, which is known to have a hollow tube on its head, to be a headbutt specialist

[elder steppe]

Is the lucifer guy still goin nuts

[hasty coyote]

he had a very interesting take, then started raging after a separate disagreement

[hasty coyote]

I dont think he left of his own will...

[azure crescent]

I was about to say lol

and the suggestion is equal in up and downvotes

what the hell man

[hasty coyote]

truly shows people just click checkmarks and dont read

[elder steppe]

Which discussion was this apart of i want to go see

[hasty coyote]

the same one of the guy who yelled at you

[elder steppe]

I think he got banned, i cant like or dislike his post and i cant search him up

[hasty coyote]

I can still emote, but yeah he isnt in the server anymore

[elder steppe]

Oof he definitely overreacted to the disagreement

[dusky surge]

isle discord discussion

[mental roost]

Certified Islecord moment

[grave veldt]

seems balanced

[celest copper]

@verbal zenith wrong channel bro; I know right?

[verbal zenith]

yeah bro that shit wild

[wise obsidian]

When you cant react to someones post it means they blocked you

[wintry mountain]

Hello Islanders

[grave veldt]

yooo i actually got excited for a split second

[dusky surge]

@uneven aspen next update

[uneven aspen]

utah getting buff or everything else nerfed?

[dusky surge]

Utah is getting buffed (and some other animals are getting nerfed)

Specifically carno

[uneven aspen]

thanks

[fresh laurel]

fixed pounce (huge buff already), faster pounce miss endlag and stronger bite

65n bite now which also increases alt bite damage

[frail bobcat]

The utah is gonna be so strong that many fear that it will be op

[uneven aspen]

NICEEE

[fresh laurel]

also carno blood bar got nerfed too...

yikes for them

[uneven aspen]

fr carno is apex rn for envirm

[fresh laurel]

also a buff indirectly for utah

[frail bobcat]

*was

[fresh laurel]

when knockdown you are stunned for a shorter duration

[frail bobcat]

And the bite buff was a damage buff overall, so stronger pounce

[uneven aspen]

yeah 65 is crazy

[fresh laurel]

Teno, Pachy and Utah packs:

[uneven aspen]

considering how agile they already are plus pounce

[fresh laurel]

does that really increase pounce damage?

[fresh laurel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jY_ZiLcOhE

[frail bobcat]

Yes, and more damage means more bleed

[uneven aspen]

do we have any idea for when it drops

[fresh laurel]

also I think utah pinning utah doesnt one shot utah

[fresh laurel]

in the update

but hey! if everything works...

[uneven aspen]

lmao

[fresh laurel]

maybe we can see it this week XD

[uneven aspen]

hopefully do yk if any new dinos drop

[fresh laurel]

wait wouldnt camo skin buff utah

harder to see = you get the drop first

[uneven aspen]

fr

[fresh laurel]

oh god bush pachys with camo

[fresh laurel]

did I mention

you take less damage from tail hits now

another buff for Utah ig

[uneven aspen]

oh nice

cant wait

[grave veldt]

bugged pounce

[slim dragon]

@fleet torrent Do you think pachy shouldn't have an advantage in a 1v1 against a Utah ?

[fleet torrent]

No you're wrong, i think there should be a balanced fight. We are talking about midtiers that should be balanced between 1v1s. Not about apex vs midt.

[frail bobcat]

And the stun duration was already nerfed so you can kinda delete that feedback

[frail bobcat]

Its two small tiers

[slim dragon]

Balanced fight means pachy doesn't have the advantage, which is wrong since it's bigger and slower

[fleet torrent]

You understand what I mean

[frail bobcat]

And pachy should have the advantage because I cant run+ takes longer to grow + is more difficult to grow

[frail bobcat]

I didnt say that the fight should be 50/50

[fleet torrent]

Heavens! The nerf is so noticeable! You have so many things going for pachy, break bones, alter the opponent's vision, stun. What does Utah have going for it? Bleed and wound him like a normal carnivore

[fleet torrent]

It has the advantage actually,

[slim dragon]

The three things you said for pachy are one and the same thing
Because if they're different things utah has bleed, damage, reducing opponent's stam and crippling their mobility

[frail bobcat]

The bleed is insane, its agility is unmatched atm and it got so many buffs in the stresstest that many are scared it will be op

[fleet torrent]

Im not going into wich is harder to grow, so dont put it here please i just talked about balancing the 1v1

[slim dragon]

And it's fine this way

[frail bobcat]

You have to give the player that masters the challenge a reward with the dino that the player grew being stronger

[fleet torrent]

It doesn't crip their mobility, and they are not the same thing

[frail bobcat]

No stam fucks up your mobility big times

[fleet torrent]

Sorry are you a main? Who do think deserves the best?

[slim dragon]

Fracture is applied through headbutt, stun is applied through headbutt (and is tied to fracture) blindness is literally a fracture

[fleet torrent]

Its a point to the pachy, 3-2, as how i said

[slim dragon]

I play every dino, and I thought it was common sense than in an engagement, the larger and slower creature gets the upper hand

[frail bobcat]

But pachy needs to have the upper hand

[slim dragon]

except deino and stego

[fleet torrent]

I also play with every dino and many times playing pachy I realize how broken it is in a confrontation of 2 people (1v1). It could take advantage of being bigger in another way, but also it's not excessive the size in comparisons between the two dinos either

[fleet torrent]

Why? There is no reason for you to have everything going for you. The combat should be balanced (in general for every combat, every dino)

[slim dragon]

I wouldn't say the advantage pachy has is massive either
One pounce and it's almmost done for.

[frail bobcat]

I said upper hand, not being only pachy sided

[frail bobcat]

I can confirm as a utahmain

[fleet torrent]

An alt attack and utah is almmost done for.

[frail bobcat]

The alt attack can be exploited pretty badly, I run around the pachy and hit tailhits which adds up from time to time

[slim dragon]

So here's your fairness.

[fleet torrent]

You don't get my point, Pachy has too much going for him already. Utah has minors, the only thing I put in balance-feedback was that one of the things that Pachy has, they should be reduced so that at least the Utahraptor still has a chance to give a little more.

[frail bobcat]

But this technique needs skill

[frail bobcat]

Its changed in the stress test, your feedback is kinda not needed because it already happened. And utah got so many buffs

[slim dragon]

But utah already has a chance ?

[fleet torrent]

Look, I don't want to waste my time arguing in the chat, I only gave my opinion and I accept yours, the only thing I ask is that you don't tell me to delete the opinion because I have the right to comment on it

[frail bobcat]

I think its good that the stun duration is lowered, but I disagree on the point that the matchup should be 50/50

[short spire]

Utah has the vastly greater agility in that engagement

[short spire]

@azure hinge Utah pounce is getting a big buff in the next update

[azure hinge]

they are fixing a lot of things in the next update, so yeah lets just see how it goes when it gets here. The devs are good, but this is just some of the major issues that i think need to be fixed sooner rather than later.

[obtuse ocean]

I dont get your point, u say stego is op stego is apex. Utah bad. For utahs to take down an apex gonna require alot of skills. Thats the tradeoff you do, apex are op in power/health. But they dont have the luxery to run away or choose its fights. Utahs can prob hunt/chase 80% of the rooster if they choose to do so.

[azure hinge]

i didnt make an argument for utah to kill a stego

i said utahs cant compete on any real level to anything else

let alone an overpowered stego

and a utah should probably never be able to kill a stego honestly

[obtuse ocean]

its not overpowered, when bigger guys come. Thats how the balance is made, i agree that they are op now.

i can agree it might not was the best choice of adding stego now

[azure hinge]

i mean an 3 8 ton crocks can try to kill a stego at the waters edge, and generally the stego will win that fight

but yes adding new dinos to the game will change the dynamic inevitably, but my point isnt that it is just top of the food chain, it has too much strengths and not enough downside

if its only downside is that there is nothing bigger than it? that is a little odd to say isnt it?

it should be more of well that thing has strong damage and size, well obviously something big and strong generally has poor mobility in either speed, stamina, turning, stamina per hit usage, or hit frequency.

or maybe for balance they could keep in mind size so maybe something is bigger so it gets less hits but has a large aoe of hitting stuff

[obtuse ocean]

Ofcourse the croc looses to stegos on land/shores, if not they could do whatever they wanted. And when they started loosing they could just walk in the water

[azure hinge]

bites have more of a lunge for larger things but less hits

i mean i very much disagree that deinos lose to a stego on shores, but im not really interested in that opinion wasnt my point of saying what i said

i think the only thing i really care about is

"if its only downside is that there is nothing bigger than it? that is a little odd to say isnt it?
it should be more of well that thing has strong damage and size, well obviously something big and strong generally has poor mobility in either speed, stamina, turning, stamina per hit usage, or hit frequency.
or maybe for balance they could keep in mind size so maybe something is bigger so it gets less hits but has a large aoe of hitting stuff"

[obtuse ocean]

I mean stegos in apex as you said , spino is also an apex. And that thing will also beat deino with ease

[azure hinge]

stego isnt an apex, thats the point in saying it

[obtuse ocean]

And you dont need to fight stego as croc, you can simply swim away. Stego cant run from anything

[azure hinge]

apex predator

[obtuse ocean]

il agree that it might not be an apex, but so is not deino.

This lumbering giant enjoys taking things nice and easy. It uses the threat of it's massive size and impressive weaponry to ward off most would be predators. Given its slow speed, it leans harder into fight than flight. Beware the tail! A well-aimed swing can be lethal. Although a fairly consistent sight on the plains, they can sometimes be found foraging on the outskirts of the jungle as well. ( it does live up to how they desscribe stego tho )

[azure hinge]

people making argument that smaller group predatory animals also cant kill larger herbi's i think is a false thing as well

[golden coral]

What's the argument here?

[azure hinge]

something like lions can kill animals such as elephants

[obtuse ocean]

Its not arguement, we just having disagreement. I can be 100% wrong

yea lions can kill elephant, but not fully grown as i seen or heard of

[azure hinge]

i mean a stegosaurus was never observed in real life, so how it acted and what it used is very subjective

like narwhals their tusks arent used to fight off predators

[obtuse ocean]

I know tiger kills crocs, that are much bigger themself

[azure hinge]

yeah thats fine

i mean you probably mean lions again

[obtuse ocean]

thats not from wiki, what i posted. Thats from the isle team describing it.

[azure hinge]

but lions are also very big can be misleading

[obtuse ocean]

And it does live up the what they wanted

[azure hinge]

o yeah i guess if they want it to be an apex predator thats fine but im just going to raise the issue it makes the game not fun

[obtuse ocean]

I 100% disagree with that, cus what you want is number beat skills. Cuddling up in a pack and do whatever you want. You need power diffreences to even that out

not fun walking around as giga , and oh look 5 allos im dead.

Cus i for sure dont wanne play in groups and go like, lets kill that. Without any fear of dying. Thats boring

[azure hinge]

thats not my argument either, my argument is that there are some pack animals that can do more than take down big herbi's

not a pack of allos taking down an apex

[obtuse ocean]

oh for sure, utahs gonna have alot of stuff on its menu

[hollow canyon]

@fleet torrent It's fixed on the stress test already, the knockdown time for Utah is only like half of what it is right now on the livebranch.

[obtuse ocean]

I do agree with you on some, its abit boring with the current rooster.

[hollow canyon]

I think a pack of Allos should be capable of taking down an apex, it should just be risky and difficult

I'm far more on board with Allos taking down an apex than Utahs taking down an apex

[azure hinge]

i havent thought about that yet i think the things that need to be addressed are what i put up deal with later stuff later

i do agree though i wouldnt want large packs of like 10 allos running around able to kill everything

[hollow canyon]

I will also just point out that regarding this:

[hollow canyon]

That's just not true

3 Deinos should be killing a Stego that is dumb enough to actually fight them instead of running away

I've been killing Stegos 2v1 as a Deino pretty much every time

worst case scenario - one Deino dies

but Stego dies every time unless it runs away in land

[azure hinge]

i dont think you know how the matchup works, the stego kites them forward while still spamming tail so the deinos are either forced to retreat or chase the tail which causes them to get tail hit markers, while stego gets head hit markers, this is general scenario

[hollow canyon]

Yea well if Stego starts going in land the fight just stops, you aren't killing it, you're just too slow on land after the nerf

If Stego starts moving forward you just have to give up, there's no way you can keep up with it

if Stego is kiting Deinos that means Deinos are dumb

[azure hinge]

high level scenario is a deino running front of a stego blocking its movement and bites for head/body while the other 2 deinos try to approch on the side while other 2 deinos aim for forward body hit markers near head to avoid taking full tail dmg and maybe getting luck with only their tale sometimes taking the hit markers

^ almost never happens

[hollow canyon]

because they actually decided to follow Stego in land

[azure hinge]

cause its still risk

[hollow canyon]

You are only killing a Stego if the Stego is dumb enough to just stand there and fight you, then again - same goes for Deino, a Stego isn't killing one unless Deino decides to take that fight, if it decides to just get back into water there's pretty much nothing Stego can do to stop it

[azure hinge]

well its more about deino quality of life, they shouldnt just run on land and kill a stego

but a stego shouldnt be able to harass a deino every time it goes on the water

[hollow canyon]

ermmm... what?

did you mean to say "shouldn't" there?

[azure hinge]

ye shouldnt

[stark spear]

Stego according to studies is a fairly lethal herbivore actually. A deino is a heavy lumbering giant. I feel the health of stego should be a good bit less than it is but not its damage. It is a lethal piece of weaponry those spikes. Even allosaurus and ceratosaurus (the latter being able to take heavy damage) thought twice about taking a stego on

[hollow canyon]

Oh yea, that makes sense then

[azure hinge]

according to studies every dinosaur used to be scaly lizards too

[hollow canyon]

I swear I will never understand where people get this idea of Ceratosaurus "being able to take heavy damage"

[stark spear]

I think the health of the stego is blown way out of proporition to be fair tho

[hollow canyon]

Ceratosaurus is a midget built like a twig

it's tiny and it's very delicately built

that thing wasn't hunting Stego unless it was about to starve to death

its jaws were incapable of resisting the kind of stress that going after an animal that large would cause it

[stark spear]

Stegos main predators were cera and allo

[hollow canyon]

Cerato wasn't preying on Stegosaurus

like... at all, even subadult Stego is well over twice larger than the biggest Ceratosaurus on record

[stark spear]

and cera was not built like a twig, it was short and stocky with osteoderms (skin bones) all down its back and various unknown parts of the body which is more armour than even allo has

[hollow canyon]

Cerato wasn't stocky at all, it was short and very gracile with a deep chest and skull

it looks "robust" in profile view

from top view it's a twig

This is the largest Ceratosaurus

do you see how thin it is from the top?

This thing isn't hunting a Stegosaurus, even a subadult like Sophie weighs over twice as much as this thing does

Allo did hunt Stegosaurus we have some evidence of that, specifically a fossil of an Allosaurus that got hit by the thagomizer of a Stegosaurus meaning that it got close enough to one to actually get hit - likely trying to hunt its eventual demise

But both Allosaurus and Ceratosaurus co-existed with predators much larger than them

[hasty coyote]

Plus, cera is likely going to have less health and less speed than carno, and carno already gets 1-shot by stegs.

(With headshot)

[hollow canyon]

Morrison formation has fossils of Torvosaurus which is a 4-5t megalosaurid which is an actually robust theropod that dwarfs both Allosaurus proper, not to mention Ceratosaurus

[stark spear]

Fair enough Ill accept defeat in this you have proven your point 😂

[hasty geode]

Cera is probably gonna have damage on its side

[hollow canyon]

My bet as for the Stego hunter is that it was this guy:

[stark spear]

I will say I am not overly familiar with cera

yes torvo definitely did

I hope they dont make rex OP

if anything it should be Anky or Triceratops

[hollow canyon]

Yea Cerato just has this reputation of being a very bulky and large predator which is something that it absolutely wasn't, idk if it's Jurassic Park or The Isle that makes people think that

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, or some type of mechanic that makes them terrible to fight. However, that doesn’t matter when steg 1-shots it before it can bite.

[stark spear]

Probably the isle

[hasty geode]

Yeah

[hollow canyon]

There's also this monster that existed there roughly around the same time:

[stark spear]

They should at least do good bleed though given the larger of the species had razer sharp teeth apparently

and they were decently long too

5.9Inch

[hollow canyon]

I think Cerato should have a very good damage output for its size, some of the best agility in the game and be an endurance hunter

regarding Cerato's teeth - I thought the same until I was corrected by people that knew better - apparently Cerato's teeth are very often oversized because their roots are exposed in the skeletons that people display

[stark spear]

I think carno adult should have better stam than they currently do. Makes no sense that the youth has better stam given that stam comes with age and carno is built for running

Ah

[hollow canyon]

Torvosaurus had the largest teeth of theropods btw

[stark spear]

Makes sense, although we cant be sure how much is exposed

[hollow canyon]

Yea true

[stark spear]

and all dino skeletons show the exposed tooth

[hollow canyon]

although i think there is some way for palaeontologists to check that so that only the crown of the tooth shows

[stark spear]

so respectively speaking they are on the same grounds of measurement

[hollow canyon]

but Idk I've always thought Cerato had particularly large teeth too

[stark spear]

I believe they do but of course it is a hard thing to figure out how deep a gum line the cera had

it could have had a thick gum line make tearing flesh easier but less deep or had a low gum line making it penetrate deep but lost many teeth in the process

[hollow canyon]

Either way I don't think that any of those animals should be hunting Stegosaurus, our best bet for Stego hunters are Utah and Dilo out of the animals that are slated for Evrima

Cerato will probably have a better shot than Carno

Carno is just a particularly poor animal to pick vs Stego

[stark spear]

i think so too. carno is built well for speed and stamina, its more likely to have hunted smallish prey such as galli and teno

teno is beefed up far more than it should be though i believe

[hollow canyon]

I don't want to get into what it hunted irl - we really have no idea, Carno is the only animal we found in its formation so we don't know what it coexisted with, I remember some hypothesis that it actually went after sauropods but

[hollow canyon]

it is but irl Teno would be complete fodder in the game

[stark spear]

True XD

[hollow canyon]

in the game Carnotaurus is designed as a pursuit predator that goes after the small game

it's an ok niche, I think it's pretty ok as it is right now

[stark spear]

Still, I would like for as much realism as is possible to apply to the game without rendering any dinos useless

[hollow canyon]

my only issue with it is that releasing a small game hunter in a game full of small game is like asking people to pick Carno and abuse the rest of the roster that is for the most part just a big eat all you want bar for Carno

[stark spear]

I certainly dont want a situation like in legacy where the map is crowded with just giga, spino and rex

[hollow canyon]

same to a certain extent, I'd like if the animals were to a certain extent at least inspired by irl dinosaurs

I hope they remake Giga again

and give it that sickle claw that it might've had

[stark spear]

I do too

I just really hope rex has a good counter and not that it just leg breaks and its game over for the opponent

[hollow canyon]

tbh most of the community considered Rex an inferior animal to Giganoto on legacy

Rex was pretty much only good at dueling

[stark spear]

like realistically speaking, they reckon triceratops was the most dangerous land animal to have lived. Like a white rhino on steroids. It was territorial and even rex was most likely afraid of it given the high number of rex fossils found where they have lost to a triceratops

[hollow canyon]

Giganoto was a much better hunter, survivalist, tracker, team-player, it just had far more use than T.rex

[stark spear]

this is true

[hollow canyon]

I actually don't know about any fossils of T.rex that have direct evidence of being killed by a Triceratops

[stark spear]

the grow time was painstaking though XD

[hollow canyon]

Yea giganoto growth was... painful

[tall bronze]

Sub Giga 🥲

[hollow canyon]

Triceratops is in a bit of a weird spot irl

[stark spear]

Ive watched a few documentaries on it (rex was my favourite for a long while before i discovered giganoto (of course as a child rex is fascinating)

[hollow canyon]

I haven't watched documentaries in quite a while I just look at the fossils we have more so, Triceratops is actually quite... weird because it's kind of much smaller than most people think

[hasty geode]

Rex is an amazing animal, it only gets annoying to hear about it when someone starts to brag about how amazing and powerful it is

[hollow canyon]

This is the size difference between the two

The grey outline is how large Trike might've gotten

[stark spear]

apparently theres been a few with one notable one being a duel where a rex ended up with a horn through the skull which they reckon happened when he broke the other horn off and accidentally headbutted the other one XD (they found the broken horn nearby)

[hollow canyon]

but those are partial specimens of whose size we aren't actually that sure

[stark spear]

yes but its size is deceptive much like anky. They reckon he was close to 12tons max weight