balance-feedback-discussion

[mental roost]

Didn't you already post this??

[flint quartz]

Bruh u have already said this

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, it would still absolutely kill you if you tried to just face tank it with fractures

[dusky surge]

Counterpoint, the carno pachy matchup. Carno literally, once fractured, starts to SERIOUSLY suffer in the fight and can essentially be bullied. A leg fractured rex won't be able to reach the head, a body fractured rex won't have the stam to continue and a head fractured rex won't be able to deal good damage

[flint quartz]

Yes exactly how i now feel

[hasty coyote]

the main issues are that:
A: it doesnt cover mechanics like scent and fracture
B: it makes apex dinos much weaker than they should be
C: it doesn't talk about alt attacks for most of them
D: it doesnt talk about bleed
E: it doesnt talk about most the roster's abilities

[mental roost]

I can see that playing out, although.. I don't think Anky should suffer too badly from that; also I don't know how to feel about the idea of stun on Anky.

Stun and Knockdowns right now, could use some work, and I'd be reluctant to give Anky them whatsoever(and probably prefer they don't)

I genuinely don't like it, whenever I see a carno repeatedly stun locked over and over again, even when it tries to fight back; but also that's important to Pachy's ability to fight back...so; odd situation.

[hasty coyote]

anky should def stun or send smaller things flying. However, against other apexes is a different story. I'm not sure, we would need more to come out so we can accurately decide whether its a good idea or not.

[flint quartz]

I would love to see a utah yeeted into the horizon

[mental roost]

Agreed; I'd love the image of Anky YEETING smaller animals with a tail club swing.

[flint quartz]

Yes

[hasty coyote]

The stun immunity kinda screws over pachies in other situations too. It helps when you're a leg broke carno being bludgeoned by a horde of pachies, but it also hurts a solo pachy who only got a rib fracture and now needs to run for 10 seconds as the carno is essentially invulnerable.

[mental roost]

Stun and knockdowns in general just feel very very weird.. and are usually a pain in the ass for both sides one way or another and I personally don't know how the hell one would go about fixing it at the moment.

[hasty coyote]

However, I do think we need to see how the new changes affect pachy. Better turning and more stam are great, and less raw damage on ram and alt should mitigate the increased stam and force pachies to hit much more rams to actually kill.

[hasty coyote]

Yeah I can't think of much of a way to fix it without an entire rework to the system.

[mental roost]

I feel like all that kind of doesn't work out when Pachy's can mob together and repeatedly beat down victims, and stun them over and over so that they can't really fight back or run(because of leg break).

It's tricky, because most simple changes to try and nerf pack hunting Pachy(something I think it really shouldn't do.. though it should definitely be aggressive), will also make solo pachy a lot weaker which.. is something I don't want either, and wouldn't be good for Pachy as a playable.

[hasty coyote]

Personally, my main take is that pachy is basically the slowest small currently (I can't remember if its slightly slower of faster than teno, but teno v pachy has other issues too), so if you decide to roll up to a pachy herd and get mauled, that's your fault.

Solo pachy should be viable, and if it isnt, then the animal will just end up being only played by premade groups of people who will give the animal a bad rep. There are also other issues with balancing a dino around only being in groups, which I won't go into here.

That's why I also like the new changes, they help, pachy stay in the break-and-run playstyle, buff it's solo viability, and don't make it too much better in groups.

[mental roost]

Currently, Pachy is... a smidge faster than Tenoto? If I recall, Tenoto is 40.1 km/h and Pachy 41. something km/h. Also yeah; everyone animal should be viable solo to SOME DEGREE, or else their ability to form groups will likely just suffer unless it's like you said; a premade group.

I still don't like seeing something repeatedly be stunned and denied the ability to fight back or run because of 1 leg break(lack of fracture severity mechanic). Tenoto's tail slams and kicks are also able to be canceled out by ram although that might've changed in the stress test(no clue).

Pachy definitely should be able to fight back, defend itself, and kill animals who push too much or don't back off but, definitely shouldn't be a more effective pack hunter than Utah(then again Utah's primary killing tool; pounce, breaks every update or two.

[hasty coyote]

Yeah pachy's rams shouldn't take prio over teno's attacks. I think a trade might be better personally, like they both get hit instead of just one, but I would need to see that in practice to know if it's actually good or not. If not, make teno take prio.

I do agree that the stun locking in a horde can be bad, but I don't know how that can be solved without a rework for how stuns worked. My best idea currently would be to make the stun immunity ramp up over the amount of hits taken and amount of things hitting it. Such as one hit giving 2 secs of immunity (after first wears off), second gives 5 seconds, third gives 10 secs, and fourth gives 15 secs. This would ramp up to like 30 secs of immunity stacks would last until combat ends (like a minute or 2 of not being hit at all). However, if there are more than one pachy, each new player hit stacks twice instead of just once. Player A hits: 2 secs. Player B hits: 10 secs. Player A/B hits again: 15 secs.

However, this would need to be fine tuned and could cause some issues mechanically, so its not the best idea, but it might work.

[mental roost]

Yeah... thinking of ways to make stun and knockdowns less annoying is hard. Also; I just realized that we got way off topic of talking about Anky, and leading into Pachy and the issue that is stuns and knockdowns

I'd make stun mechanics more complicated in a sense.. but have absolutely no clue as to how feasible they'd be with hardware limitations and actually implementing them code and programming wise.

[hasty coyote]

Yeah stuns and stuff are a hard mechanic to balance, especially when we mostly have glass cannons currently. Its fine, we're still talking about balance so it fits here.

[hasty coyote]

@livid spindle I have a few issues with your statement:
1: The new pachy changes in the stress test should help with your issue of it having too high damage. Its getting increased turn radius and more stam, but worse ram damage and I think worse alt attack damage (saw a clip where a utah tanked like 7 alt attacks, but they may have been tail hits)
2: Utah v pachy is relatively even, utah just needs to hit a pounce to deal 1/3 to 1/2 of pachy's bleed, even with buck, and then keep up the pressure and make sure it can't heal (which is easy since pachy has terrible heling and generally sprints to fight).
3: The carno charge and pachy ram interaction is fair imo. It breaks pachy's ribs and carno's skull. this cripples both their attacks and forces pachy to escape before its stam runs out or it dies.
4: what biome do you think pachy lives in? All of its diets are found in the plains except coco, which spawns in open spots in the jungles near the coast.

[livid spindle]

@hasty coyoteExcept agave, other foods are close to the forest. I think pachy should be active in the forest and more suitable for fighting in the forest. Coconuts are found in the forest above the southwest beach.

[mental roost]

I'm kind of curious why they made Pachy prefer the open fields honestly...Imagine it'd be at least a little decent in forested areas(maybe not DENSE forests but foresty.. Which is actually nowhere on the map so, fair.)

[dusky surge]

i personally heavily disagree with pachy being a forest creature. It's an animal that relies heavily on line of sight and not being interrupted by obstacles. A forest seems like a terrible place for pachy to live in all honesty

[hasty coyote]

agave is in the plains, melons are in the open, and coco are in open areas in the jungles above the coasts (like you said). All of these are in the open. also, give me a sec to check something.

[dusky surge]

melons are in swamp

[hasty coyote]

sorry, let me rephrase that

[livid spindle]

When I was growing up in pachy, I only had to take an adventure to eat tequila once at first, and then I almost always walked through the forest.

[dusky surge]

tequila?

[livid spindle]

Because pachy's collision doesn't require much distance, it's easier to see those tall predators while hiding yourself in the forest.

machine translation

[hasty coyote]

hiding in the forest while growing =/= should only live in the forest.
Pachy relies on hitting a ram, which is hard whenever you have to sprint and a miss ram will stun you into a tree

[mental roost]

Let dinosaurs be able to get drunk

That is my only demand for tonight.

[livid spindle]

There will be more and more powerful carnivores in the future, and small herbivores like this should try to avoid being on the plains.

[hasty coyote]

if we go based off that, then wouldn't every dino be a forest dino?
Juvie stegos are better hiding in the forest rather than the plains
Tenos are better hiding in the forest than the plains and swamps.

[dusky surge]

small herbivores can easily see and outrun these threats in the plains, whereas larger carnivores would have a MUCH easier time ambushing these smaller animals in the forests

[hasty coyote]

and the more powerful carnivores will be slow, the smaller herbivores can run away from them.

[livid spindle]

Stego, a baby on the plain, usually comes to no good end.

[hasty coyote]

so all stegos belong in the forest?

[dusky surge]

we're talking about pachy tho

especially animals with pachy, who has decent speed and endurance, perfect for quickly escaping a large apex carnivore coming over the hill

[livid spindle]

To some extent, it is, but Niu Long is everywhere, because there are no land predators stronger than cattle and dragons, and there are only a few carnivores that people can play with.

Otherwise, a more powerful carnivore scares the bull dragon, but at the same time, some small herbivores can escape those powerful carnivores by speed.

[dusky surge]

Niu Long?
Dragons?
Bull Dragon?

what

[livid spindle]

carno

[dusky surge]

why would you not just say that

[livid spindle]

This machine translation is terrible.

I should just say carno

[mental roost]

Are you putting things through a translator??

[livid spindle]

I can't speak English.

[mental roost]

Ah, gotcha.

[livid spindle]

So I think the strongest predator on land is the fastest predator, which will cause a lot of problems.

Pachy and Teno are the same. They can't escape any land predators at present, so they can only make their combat effectiveness strong

[hasty coyote]

ah ha I found it. The diet system says pachy is found in the "arid and ubiquitous" which means plains and just generally everywhere

[hasty coyote]

It does cause some, but carno will always be in the game. so these dinos will need to be balanced to fight it anyway

[livid spindle]

Maybe if they don't change the balance, it's better to have a new dinosaur

It is said that the herbivore was strengthened again and the carnivore was weakened again

[hasty coyote]

that is not going to help. These fights will always happen, so they need to be balanced accordingly. Adding a larger carnivore that can easily kill the herbivores will just force the herbivores to be able to run away.

[livid spindle]

I once thought about Allosaurus or Albertosaurus, but later I thought it might cause more imbalances. It's better to be a dinosaur like cerat. People may choose carno or cerat. In that case, I think there will be less carno, and there will be competition between them

[dusky surge]

this man actually gets how cerato should be wtf

respect, someone who doesn't see cerato as "the carno slayer" but instead an alternative choice for carnivore players and competition for carnos

[livid spindle]

Carno is always valuable. It is the fastest predator, but it is really not suitable for being a top predator

Carno poses too little threat to larger animals and too much threat to smaller animals. If there are too many carno, the impact on large animals will be negligible and the impact on small animals will be devastating

[hasty coyote]

Plus, the fights are not bad, for the most part. Utah is a buggy mess, but when it works, its pounce does massive bleed. A single pounce can drop a pachy to half bleed, even with bucking, and a double pounce just kills it. Pachy can also cripple the utah with a single hit, but not kill it with 1 combo. Utah v teno is not bad either, bait out the teno's attacks and slowly bleed it out. However, you will generally need multiple utahs to kill a teno.
Carno is in a VERY good spot atm, honestly a bit too good, but I would rather them fix everything else's issues before nerfing carno. Tracking makes a solo pachy unable to escape from a carno, even with breaks. Although, a group of pachies can slowly beat down a carno that got too close, which is a bit too strong currently. Teno v carno is also in a good spot, they are evenly matched, but teno could use with a buff to its stamina.

[livid spindle]

I think bug and Ping limit Utah

[hasty coyote]

I do agree, that is why cerato is being worked on currently, and should be coming relatively soon.

[hasty coyote]

Gets knocked down by pachy

[livid spindle]

But for most people, carno is bigger and faster than UT, so many people choose carno

[hasty coyote]

definitely

[livid spindle]

We have a rule server. The same species cannot attack each other (for predators, they need to be very hungry). Therefore, our view is different from that of the official server

[hasty coyote]

next update should fix many of the issues we currently have. Pounce might not be entirely fixed though. Pachy is getting some very good buffs that should make it better at the "break and run" strategy, but not too strong in packs.

[livid spindle]

I think the official server mixed packaging and cheaters will make many people have different views

[silk harness]

Am I the only one that worries cera will actually struggle against carno? It's smaller, much slower, doesn't have the agility to constantly dodge, and probably won't have much more than like 200 biteforce max. Unless it's special ability is really good, I can't see it faring well against carno 1v1

[livid spindle]

I tend to make the skills of dinosaurs more average. For example, I think carno's collision should be easier to use and consume less physical energy, but the effect is also reduced

We should not let the success of some dinosaur skills cause very serious consequences. Failure will cause very serious consequences for ourselves

[hasty coyote]

yeah, official servers have mixpacking (which is another issue that needs to be addressed separate from balance) and cannibals. Currently, pachies are so bored that they will kill other pachies for fun, and it makes it difficult to form a group unless you already have one.

[dusky surge]

im not worried about that, im pretty sure it will. Cera has its own niche and purpose, and I think people have a false notion that it's going to be some carno killer. One good charge is enough, imho, to take down a cera if comboed correctly

cera really SHOULDN'T consistently be beating carno in a 1v1 for the reasons you listed

cera should be advantaged in certain environments (forests, jungles, swamps, rivers) but massively falter in carno's terrain (plains and arid environments)

[livid spindle]

In our rule server, only herbivores can help other kinds of herbivores. For other animals, different kinds of animals are forbidden to help each other. You can always trust your own kind

[hasty coyote]

Cera is generally something that you just do not want to mess with. Like a badger, you can kill them somewhat easily, but is it really worth it to try and fight it?

[livid spindle]

However, as long as a competitor exists, it will cause pressure. For example, even if there is no deino in the river, you will be careful when drinking water

[silk harness]

I'm thinking this will be accurate if its special ability is some sort of septic bite like people are theorizing. Just getting bitten would be a lengthy debuff, so you wouldn't want to fight it even if you win

[livid spindle]

What I worry about is that the players of this game will kill all the animals they can kill. After all, as long as they sit down, they can recover all the injuries

[dusky surge]

cera, imho, should carry the air of "absolutely not worth the trouble". If I were balancing cera, most of its abilities and stats would make you outright not see the value in trying to kill it. Stamina draining grapples, decent bite force, bleed resist, great turn rate, decent trot, etc, fighting a cera should be annoying and just not worth the effort you put in, especially if you're trying to contest for a smelly rotting corpse

[dusky surge]

not a fan of septic bite personally

[hasty coyote]

Also should not be on anything's diet except crocs and maybe other ceras.

[dusky surge]

honestly idk what the hell would WANT to eat smelly meat goblin cera

[hasty coyote]

Hopefully, future mechanics should make people less likely to fight. Nesting and perks in particular should help give other things to do and reasons to live.

[livid spindle]

If carno can't fight, he can escape. If Cerato can't fight, he has to die

[silk harness]

I agree but I think that may be what we're getting. The trail cam video seems like it's regurgitating into its mouth (rotten meat?) and then threatening to bite

[livid spindle]

Yes, I always hope to find some babies

[dusky surge]

just kinda looks like it's going for a big bite

[silk harness]

What's like the "charge-up" part supposed to be then?

[hasty coyote]

It could be that, never thought of it that way. Or it could be some type of grapple, parry, or defensive stance. Another idea I have heard of is it being an extended 3 call.

[silk harness]

Before it opens its mouth it like squirms and makes gagging noises

[hasty coyote]

like pachy charging a ram, to balance it out for being powerful hit that you can only use occasionally.

[livid spindle]

When my stego kept making friendly calls in the face of a broken leg carno, I didn't want to continue chasing, but I didn't want it to kill any Pachy, but at the beginning, the battle started with Pachy.

[dusky surge]

could just be it making a noise to threaten you. It honestly looks like a threaten display or something, idk, having a septic bite seems super lame to me, just discount venom

[silk harness]

This is pretty much what I thought at first, and could definitely be the case (hopefully it is). I do think it would be a weird animation/sound choice though if it wasn't doing some kind of bodily function

[hasty coyote]

Some herbivores need the first strike, pachy especially. However, a solo pachy does not have enough stam to fully kill a carno, so a smart carno can punish a pachy for chasing it still.

[livid spindle]

It seems that the weight at the growth stage has changed back to that at the time of update 3. I don't want this. The weight and visual effects should be synchronized.

[dusky surge]

i dont know what you mean

[livid spindle]

It may also be a bug caused by formula change, like the weight of deino in the previous time

For example, Utah with 80% growth is only over 100 kg

[tall bronze]

That is just the menu being weird I believe. Percentages were changed to fit in hatchling growth. So 0% is no longer when you spawn in, but now ~20% I think. 0% is gonna be for hatchlings.

So it may not be exactly like this but it's essentially something like 70% on live being 60% in U5.....kinda. 😛

[hasty coyote]

I think that its only part of the issue, yes there like an extra 15-20%, but that doesnt mean you should gain half your weight in the last 10% in like 15 mins

If you make the extra hatchling stage 15% of growth time, then you would start doubling your weight at about 78% currently, which is still quite late in your growth

[dusky surge]

@wicked sage counterpoint, a bunch of utahs are attacking your stego nest. You kill one successfully, but now your nest has a body on it, and you, your mate, your herd (if present) and your babies are now all debuffed and you can't defend or care for your babies nearly as well.

[livid spindle]

In the future, maybe most creatures will have bad effects near rotten corpses?

[dusky surge]

hopefully not lmao, idk why that'd be a thing

[wicked sage]

Valid, id say the solution on that would come down to sportsmanship (something a fair chunk of Isle players lack imo so no cigar there)
Personally, I believe that herbs should also have body drag, so you could move it, but I don't honestly know if that's in game bc I've never tried it.

[livid spindle]

I think the problem is that predators eat too slowly, and dragging away bodies is both slow and physical (leopards can carry antelopes to trees, while 1.8T carno can only slowly drag away 300kg boar bodies)

[dusky surge]

this is the isle, if herbivores don't have the sportsmanship to move off bodies, carnis won't have the sportsmanship to not drag bodies near nesting sites to piss off herbis

[wicked sage]

Yeah, I took that into account with my last message

[livid spindle]

If there are strong enough carnivores, herbivores are afraid to stay on the corpses. It is usually an open position that is not conducive to combat

[dusky surge]

honestly, yea, the greatest "anti-body camp" system i can think of is a bigger carnivore that's attracted to the smell

anything else is abusable or frustrating

[livid spindle]

But what you can smell in the game is no farther than what you can see on the plain

I think you can't smell it because something farther away isn't refreshed in your game

[wicked sage]

Personally if it came down to carnis griefing nests, I'd log or leave with the kids. Not always easy (or even an option for the latter) but idk what else to do there 😂

[dusky surge]

i'd rather just not have the system if it meant carnis can just grief herbis

also the concept of body anxiety is weird. Lots of herbivores irl don't give a shit

and adding a perk so you don't get debilitating debuffs for walking near a corpse seems super off

[wicked sage]

It just needs someone with more experience than me with game balancing to tweak it into a balanced function. As it is now, there's a lot of toxicity with carnivores wiping out entire herds because they can, and herbivores body denying because they can. Both problems need some sort of solution imo

[dusky surge]

issue is no one has anything to live for once adult. There's no nesting or elders, so you might as well spend your time beating the shit out of as much as you can

[wicked sage]

That's something I'm hoping the next update will at least partially fix

[livid spindle]

Generally speaking, carnivores do not need to destroy all herbivores, but herbivores are more likely to die if they run away from their own kind, and herbivores always prevent carnivores from eating. Will carnivores leave after eating?

[dusky surge]

no endgoal or reason to survive so why bother trying to

[wicked sage]

I would, but then again I'm a more casual gamer with less of a focus on pvp

So take my suggestions with a grain of salt

[livid spindle]

I think the nest system will make up for it, because now if you don't go to densely populated areas to find people to fight, walking alone in other places will be very boring

In this way, players who like to live with babies will go to other places, and some carnivores will also go to other places to find them. On the plains, herbivores are ready to fight with carnivores, but in other places, herbivores may not be ready to face carnivores.

[frail bobcat]

@fleet vapor it cant do a 180 while charging

This is called a tap ram and this is necessary so that a pachy can defend itself in close quarters

It needs to do that or a carno can just run up and murder it

Its called balance

It needs this to be viable

[obtuse ocean]

nerf the food, so you cant have huge herds or packs. And people spread out, its gonna be sad if you need like 3 rexes to even go close to herds.

[frail bobcat]

Bro said pachy should not be viable solo

He blocked me because I disagreed with him

[dusky surge]

incredible

[mental roost]

The Isle: survive it

[slim dragon]

You will not

[frail bobcat]

He dmed me and insulted me and kept explaining to me how pachy should lose to carnos 90% of the time and that I was a biased herbie player without skill

[tranquil pawn]

Isle players

[frail bobcat]

At their finest

[tranquil pawn]

Ah yes the classic carno main

[frail bobcat]

Without skill because he keeps losing to pachys

[tranquil pawn]

mhm

[frail bobcat]

He was like: I died, cleary its to strong and shouldnt be viable solo cries

[tranquil pawn]

God sometimes isle players make me want to punch some sense into their faces

[frail bobcat]

I think I wanna go pachy and bonk every carno in hopes that its him

[tranquil pawn]

[tranquil pawn]

wow, mister cry baby blocked me too when I tried to make an equilibrium

sounds like somebody can't cope when not using skill to hunt

looks like somebody can't deal with the fact that people don't agree with people who talk stupid shit and complain about losing progress because they were playing dumb I'm perfectly aware this is highly inappropriate and I will most likely get banned/ muted I hope you're happy @fleet vapor

[dusky surge]

i also got blocked.

i dont even know why i didnt argue with him at all

[tranquil pawn]

[dusky surge]

i just said "incredible"

[tranquil pawn]

[mental roost]

This might be going a little too far...

[tranquil pawn]

if you could read my DM's you would understand but fair enough I'll leave it at that

[mental roost]

The bad thing is, I'm genuinely interested in what's going on there, but it's also none of my business.

The duality of man.

[tranquil pawn]

thank you for understanding, I also understand your curiosity but it's best left untouched

[mental roost]

No problem

[tranquil pawn]

if someone blocked me does that mean I can't ping them either?

[mental roost]

Correct; I think, I just did a quick google search.

[tranquil pawn]

shit

now I have a blinding urge to KoS absolutely every carno I ever see from this day forth

[frail bobcat]

Me too

[tranquil pawn]

[frail bobcat]

I think he is a troll

[tranquil pawn]

I wish but it really doesn't seem like it

[frail bobcat]

Bro got muted

[tranquil pawn]

lets gooo!

[frail bobcat]

At least he has the muted role

[tranquil pawn]

what are the chances that the salty bugger gonna complain about the mods next

"this guy muted me because I was stupid, please nerf!"

[frail bobcat]

Mods are to op

[fresh laurel]

wait why would someone suggest removing pachy ability to break bones...???

isnt that like the whole animal theme?

[mental roost]

Should invest in more calcium stats.

[fresh laurel]

would be like remove utah ability to pounce

wait bugs have that covered...

would be like removing teno ability to stun

[tranquil pawn]

mhm

[frail bobcat]

No he said that like tap rams shouldnt be a thing

[fresh laurel]

I mean I guess I can see why someone would want that removed but.... huh?

[tranquil pawn]

dude complained about dying

[fresh laurel]

doesnt tap ram only fracture pachy sized things?

[tranquil pawn]

mhm

[calm ibex]

tbh i thought tap ram fracture was a bug

[frail bobcat]

He had a skill issue

[fresh laurel]

so thats only a utah issue...?

[tranquil pawn]

they were a carno

[fresh laurel]

wait-

What.

[tranquil pawn]

mhm

[fresh laurel]

how does huh???

so like they broke their leg to tap ram?

[tranquil pawn]

[fresh laurel]

how many times would it take to break carno leg with tap ram only?...

[frail bobcat]

Dunno

[fresh laurel]

Either the Pachy was godly or the Carno really had skill issue

[frail bobcat]

But mans just bad with carno

Imagine him just watching the chat

[fresh laurel]

pain

Dont worry man, you'll learn the way of Carno.

[tranquil pawn]

have more than 5 iq and you're golden

ok we're being really toxic now I'll leave it there

[fresh laurel]

I think playing Carno in general removes 5 braincells-

[tranquil pawn]

and this conversation is just making me sad for humanity

[fresh laurel]

anyways what yall think about update 5 balance?

[tranquil pawn]

seems... ok apart from the weight bug

[fresh laurel]

I hope thats a bug

[frail bobcat]

The speed change is shit, and the weight thingy is weird

[fresh laurel]

speed change?

you mean speed over time with growth or..?

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[tranquil pawn]

90% utahs are slower than tenos XD

[fresh laurel]

If thats not a bug...

[frail bobcat]

I know, its bullshit

[fresh laurel]

Ima quit Utah

Didnt they buff pachy younger stages to out run Utah at some point or...?

[tranquil pawn]

it had fucking better be, it's like the game said, "ok I hear your suffering but fuck you"

[fresh laurel]

If its not a bug, buff Utah hp to 500

[frail bobcat]

I think the feedback from the stresstesters will stop them

[fresh laurel]

I dont think they would really release update 5 with that weight system

like you would never see a none full grown Utah again lmao

[tranquil pawn]

I assume it's a bug due to the new stage of growth

[fresh laurel]

hopefully

[tranquil pawn]

hatchlings prolly fucked with growth

[fresh laurel]

It better have

but man, what I would do for pounce to be fixed

It looks fine on the newer videos but...

[tranquil pawn]

[fresh laurel]

what happened to pounce after update 3 lol

[frail bobcat]

If the changes dont make it into the final version and the pounce is fixed, imma go as a priest on halloween

[tranquil pawn]

[fresh laurel]

what

[frail bobcat]

Im serious

[tranquil pawn]

honestly that is such a good idea, bet

[fresh laurel]

Pause

🤨

[azure crescent]

balance feedback is extra stupid with their suggestions today i see

more “pachy is op” stuff

[frail bobcat]

Yes I know lol

[azure crescent]

and the poster is muted

i’m scared to know why

[frail bobcat]

Dont try to argue with Run, he will block you and call you an unskilled herbie player

[azure crescent]

bruhh i main utah and deino

[frail bobcat]

He does kinda not understand the point of a discoussion

[azure crescent]

haha some people man

[lament cloak]

at least twice, you need a full ram to break carnos leg with one hit

[hasty coyote]

not to mention tap ram only stuns yourself, so the carno can easily kill you on the second ram.

[alpine plover]

Pachy isn't op.

He's dealing with carnivores that get countered by him. Wait until we have different carnivores in Evrima.

As of now pachy must fight, Utah and Carno. Am I forgetting another carnivore?

Ffs he's gonna appear OP, but he's not.

[eager ledge]

Plus in update 5 I heard they nerfed it’s dmg so now it’s going to be pethetic trying to defend your self even though real pachy generats enough force to worp and even shatter steal plate

[dusky surge]

what?

the fuck are you talking about

[alpine plover]

Well only response to that is...

Move in herds.

[mental roost]

Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about.

[dusky surge]

not even, U5 pachy is still more than capable solo, it just doesn't do as much damage

it can still fracture and promptly leave

[alpine plover]

Herbivores shouldn't do alot of damage, they should be skilled at defense and fleeing lol

Unless you're a couple of certain Herbivores lol

[hasty coyote]

Herbivores should definitely do a lot of damage depending on their playstyle. Pachy in particular is one that should deal low damage to larger things like carno, but still hit decently hard for things its size. Pachy is supposed to be a break and run for things larger than itself, and more of a brawler for smaller things. Other herbivores like teno, stego, and trike should deal a good chunk of damage because their main defense is to just kill the attacker.
So you can't say "herbivores shouldn't do a lot of damage" when different herbivores have VASTLY different playstyles from each other.

[alpine plover]

I think it's all opinion based.

Herbivores aren't supposed to out right kill their attackers, but ward them off.

But hey I've seen more aggressive Pachys that Utahs lol

It's a game after all and everyone here is human.

Btw that's why I said "certain herbivores".

[hasty coyote]

Also, no, pachy is not pathetic in U5, its ram turning radius got buffed, and I think its stam got buffed but I may be wrong on that one. Pachy still has enough damage to kill utahs, but now has a bit harder time running down broken carnos and tenos, which was the point in nerfing its damage. Pachy should generally break and run from those.

[hasty coyote]

i understand being "non-lethal" for certain ones, such as pachy or anky to an extent, but many are FORCED to kill their attacker. If they can only wound the predator, then why would the predator stop attacking? If a carno decided to fight a teno and does not decide to leave after it starts losing, it should die. However, if a teno literally does not have the damage to kill a carno, then nothing stops a carno from just running down any teno it sees. In many cases, the carnivore has a chance to get away once it starts losing the fight, but the herbivore does not. Herbivores can't be non-lethal without a mechanic that allows them to escape the carnivore, whether that is speed, bone breaks, or swimming.

[mental roost]

If a predator doesn't run off; they get killed. Damage helps facilitate that, however.. fracture kind of stops them from being able to run away(the predator in this case), but also helps the Pachy's run away.

It's a tough thing to balance.

[dusky surge]

it is up to the predator to choose if they want that damage to be non-lethal, especially in fights like carno v teno

[hasty coyote]

Which is why many of the fracture dinos should have less raw damage, they generally do not need it. However, if that carnivore still lacks a brain and keeps chasing, beat them to death with a lead pipe.

[dusky surge]

if the carno is badly damaged, it can choose to continue and risk lethality, or flee and increase its survival chances

[mental roost]

"Please stop beating me with a lead pipe because I said Morbius was a bad movie."

[hasty coyote]

well, that carnivore has a brain, so he gets to live.

[mental roost]

I want to draw a Michael Morbius Pachy now; I hate myself.

[dusky surge]

i do agree that if a herbi has bleed or especially fracture, it doesn't need to be AS lethal, but all combat-focused herbis should have at least some potential to kill shit

[mental roost]

"It's bonking time."

[hasty coyote]

exactly. if they decide to not leave, then they deserve to find out.

[dusky surge]

fuck around and additionally find out

[hasty coyote]

[mental roost]

The director directed, and the dinosaurs acted, truly a film.

[alpine plover]

Well i never said herbivores should kill anything, just they shouldn't "outright" kill them.

Unless the carnivores are stupid and they are lol

[dusky surge]

pretty sure the only carnivores dying to herbivores are the stupid ones

i've made utahraptor essentially fucking immortal by not taking dumb fights and avoiding carnos

[hasty coyote]

If the carni keeps attacking after they started losing the fight, then they should die. If they leave, then they live.

[hasty coyote]

at least you have the chance to avoid them my pachy can't escape the hordes
But up5 should help

[dusky surge]

apparently carno isnt as insane in U5, along with a tracking nerf

so that's nice

[hasty coyote]

honestly, the turn buffs and tracking were all I needed. What did they change on carno tho, I haven't heard.

[dusky surge]

i have no clue but apparently its not as strong

[hasty coyote]

I hope they nerfed the bleed, it was a bit high.

[silk harness]

The only confirmed thing I've seen is that the bite hitbox isn't gigantic anymore. Its turn radius looks nerfed too but I might just be seeing things on that.

[hasty coyote]

thats always good. I'll have to test out the changes once the update is live

[dusky surge]

bite hitbox sounds great because holy shit lmao

[silk harness]

For real. I swear rn LMB just creates a giant sphere of damage around carno's entire body minus the tail. I'll nip the back of its ankles as utah and still get hit. Bites out its ass.

[hasty coyote]

its honestly ark giga levels of hitbox

[alpine plover]

Immortal? he he he

Sounds like you're a coward, hehe he.

[dusky surge]

if i take a fight, i'm sure to die, because of my 200 ping from having dead AU servers

i'd LOVE to be able to do cool fights but most of my fights end with a carno two-tapping me across a river

[alpine plover]

Aww I'm sorry, I'll have the team work on the netcode.

[dusky surge]

what?

its nothing to do with netcode, it's everything to do with having no active local servers lmao

[alpine plover]

What about eu?

[dusky surge]

I'm Australian

that's even further away

[alpine plover]

I'm sorry to hear, how much time do you have left?

[alpine plover]

Sorry to hear.

[dusky surge]

as long as i damn please

[alpine plover]

Don't you come the raw prawn with me mate.

[dusky surge]

i have no fucking clue what that means

[alpine plover]

It's an old war expression

Anyway they should base alot of The Isle on Australia tbh

Full of stuff that can kill you and it's just not a fun place to be lol

[livid spindle]

The 3-ton medium stego will be dizzy and fractured by Pachy's attack. I'm afraid that animals like Allosaurus or Albertosaurus will also be fractured by Pachy's attack in the future

In addition, a 240kg deino of mine will have a concussion due to the attack of a newly born Pachy. The upper limit of Pachy attack seems too high

I hope those large carnivores that are not easy to catch up with Pachy will not be broken by Pachy's attack

[alpine plover]

They won't. Most will one shot pachy.

[livid spindle]

Creatures that will be stun by Pachy are easy to be killed by Pachy. Carno is at least fast and can chase Pachy. We have set up the baby war before, and baby stego has almost no resistance in front of baby Pachy.

[livid spindle]

I hope that different creatures have different resistances to different fractures. For example, some creatures have strong heads and should not be easily concussed, while others have strong legs, so it is not easy to break them.

[dusky surge]

already a thing, pachys cant be head fractured, for example

[livid spindle]

But my underage deino can be attacked and concussed by a pachy about the size of my head.

After the release of Update 5, let's look at it again. Many feelings about balance may just be due to the chaos on the grassland. If you meet predators while taking your children through the forest, it will be very terrible.

[alpine plover]

I hope they release more than 3 dinos this year.

[livid spindle]

If they complete update 5 before July, I believe there may be Cerato this year

They said that update 6 will be completed this year. After the update, the release of new dinosaurs should be faster. It is not difficult to make new dinosaurs, but if you release new dinosaurs first, it will make the mechanism more difficult to do.

[dreamy fiber]

If a hard object the size of my head hit my head decently hard I'd feel pretty concussed too. Lol.

Like even though the animal is small it's not that unreasonable if it's hitting you in the head. If it's breaking your leg, though, that should be revisited tbh. It's gonna be a careful balancing act

[livid spindle]

The scene at that time was similar to that of a mouse hitting your nose, and then you had a concussion and couldn't see anything clearly

[dreamy fiber]

There's a pret big difference between "a pachy about the size of my head" and a mouse in comparison to a human nose. I'd say the truth if probably the former, not the latter lol

Its also more like a little rock hitting your nose if anything and wanna go with that. Won't kill you but it'd hurt damn bad LOL

[livid spindle]

I am deino of 250kg, and he is Pachy who was just born. After I killed it, I put it in my mouth

[livid spindle]

Moreover, the newly born Pachy had a flat head. It didn't dazzle me, but it made me concussion. Similar things happened. About 50% of Pachy attacked adult carno. Carno was not dazed, but when he walked, he found that his leg was broken.

[livid spindle]

Even if it is a fat man of 500kg, it should be so weak under the impact of 1800kg and over 50km/h, but it can stop carno through the impact. In principle, the force that can stop the carno in the collision state is enough to make Pachy fly by itself.

[hasty coyote]

The random breaks you are talking about are because of the “fracture health” of body parts. Even if pachy stuns itself when hitting, it still deals the fracture damage and can break bones. Generally, this will still take a lot of hits if you’re much bigger, but it can be done.

The issue with pachy’s stun and knock down ranges will likely be fixed in the future. I doubt pachy could knock down Magy, bary, and cera and stun things like allo. So this will likely be changed when playables are being affected by this.

Lastly, pachy should not be sent flying for hitting a carno, that would make carno win every fight. Also, if you are talking about the pachy ram and carno charge interaction, I believe that one is fairly balanced. Carno gets a skull fracture, which lowers its vision and damage. Pachy gets a rib fracture, which lowers its stam and makes it unable to charge a ram. This essentially means the pachy needs to get away from the carno before it runs out of stam. And the carno needs to either catch the pachy, or run away from any other pachies there.

[livid spindle]

I just think it seems very strange that 1800kg creatures and 500kg creatures collide with each other, but they will stop and be broken together

[livid spindle]

I can't imagine four times the weight difference. The heavier one can't hit the lighter one head-on

[livid spindle]

For the sake of balance, it is possible to maintain this for the time being, but in the future

[livid spindle]

Teno is better than carno, but carno always tries to attack Teno, because if it can't, it can leave at any time. But when carno faces Pachy, if it breaks, it is difficult to escape, especially when Pachy takes the lead in attacking and bumps into carno So, has Pachy's attack power become lower in the next version? I hope that when it attacks heavier creatures than itself, it will reduce its attack power, so that the cost of killing them will become greater

It may not be a good idea for them to release Utah at the beginning, and then release carno which is bigger and faster than Utah.

[hasty coyote]

It’s a thing that happens in nature too, if a cow tries to ram a goat head-on, the goat will be fine but the cow will have a broken neck. Plus to be honest, neither of these Dinos would be ramming head on like this. It’s just an ability for a game. Balance over realism every time.

[hasty coyote]

Also yes, next update should make balance much better. Pachy has better turning and tracking is nerfed. So that is pachy’s main issues gone. However, it is also getting a damage nerf, so it is harder to beat down carnos.

[livid spindle]

I think collision may be a kind of conventional ability of animals to fight against animals smaller than themselves.

If so, let's wait for the next update

[hasty coyote]

The main reason they added utah was to make sure they could have a functional pounce. Good thing they decided to do it earlier too, gave them much more data and issues to fix.

[livid spindle]

I think part of the problem of balance is that there are too few dinosaurs, so they had better not spend a lot of energy on balance at present, but add more mechanisms and dinosaurs as soon as possible.

Oh, after update 5, Pachy and Teno can't avoid carno on the dam

[frail bobcat]

This will be cool if carnos can just sweep the dam of the growing herbies, it just was a free grow once you got there

[livid spindle]

Carno learned to lift his legs

[hasty coyote]

That is part of the issue, but if they do not balance now with the few dinos we have, it will become much more difficult to juggle many dinos at once.

[livid spindle]

But after all, this is not a competitive game. Many battles are unfair and different on different servers.

This makes everyone look at balance differently from their own point of view.

[hasty coyote]

My main thing is that I don’t want to just instantly die because someone saw me. It’s just not fun when everyone goes the same overpowered carnivore and just forms megapacks.

[livid spindle]

So, at present, you will see brutal herbivores chasing predators everywhere, but many people still think that carno is too strong, which is not a simple balance problem.

[livid spindle]

And mixed packaging or cheating will always upset all the balance.

[hasty coyote]

There are many situations where one side beats the other. However, most of the times herbivores win is when they have more people, mixpack, and/or the carnivores are bad. Each side has issues that need to be addressed.

[livid spindle]

Because too many people gather in one area to fight, and few people in other areas, you can either fight with them or enjoy loneliness. Everyone needs a goal, and I think the nest will be improved.

[hasty coyote]

I believe the next patch should really help equal the balance much more. There is less food for herbies, so potentially less mixpacking. Herbies are also getting buffs to help their major flaws.

[livid spindle]

If update 5 is released now, I will stop all nonsense immediately.

We have been in this version for too long, and the producers of the isle don't like to release some minor updates.

However, since their update 6 is already half done, I just need to wait until December, when I will get update 5 and update 6.

[drowsy furnace]

Carnos turning is fine, when its full speed it basically doesn't turn and when it's a bit slower it still has a bad turn... why are people still mad at it T_T

[old hull]

thats being pretty generous , its standing/walking turn is much better then it probably should be , especially with fast that alt bite is

its very forgiving

on paper it doesnt seem like its a big deal but its improved turn kinda robbed utah and pachy some of opportunities to counterattack them , for pachy it doesnt really matter since you can stun them but for utah its very risky to go anywhere near a carno

[drowsy furnace]

bro you again -_- first you want carnos not to bite and now you want them to turn like a freight train, you just don't like carnos

[hollow canyon]

I think it is meant to be very risky for Utah to go anywhere near a Carno. If that's how it works then that means the game works as intended.

[hollow canyon]

Islecorders reaction when a small game hunter ends up being good at killing small game:

https://tenor.com/view/surprised-pikachu-pokemon-shock-surprised-pikachu-gif-15357817

If you want Carno to stop being so overplayed then ask the devs to introduce some animals that can actually actively hunt it and kill it or more animals that at least wouldn't be on the menu for it.

[drowsy furnace]

that's why I'm waitin for cera

[hollow canyon]

Cera is a midget

[drowsy furnace]

still gonna kill carno easy

[hollow canyon]

small carnivore on the old roadmap, irl it's like half the size of Carno

[drowsy furnace]

well maybe not really easy tho

[drowsy furnace]

a cera is half the size of a carno???

[hollow canyon]

size comparison of all the animals from Evrima roster

[hollow canyon]

1.1t vs 2t(or 1.8t in the game)

Cerato is just a very small animal in general

[drowsy furnace]

manz is hella beefy tho

[hollow canyon]

for a theropod that is

nah, Cerato is anything but beefy, Carno is the more beefy animal out of the two

[drowsy furnace]

I meant in isle lol

[hollow canyon]

it's longer than Cerato cause it's just larger but even at length parity it would just be heavier

nah in The Isle it's not particularly beefy either

In legacy it's just oversized all around

as in - the model is just much larger than the real animal

[drowsy furnace]

it's getting shrunk in evrima or is carno v cera still a fair fight?

[hollow canyon]

it wasn't a fair fight in legacy at all, Carno stomped Cerato with ease

[drowsy furnace]

nah, good ceras could clap carnos

[hollow canyon]

old roadmap implied Cerato's getting smaller, last we've seen it it seemed to be at its old size

so who knows

[somber sphinx]

What did nova do to magy

[hollow canyon]

good Carno clapped any Cerato with ease

Cerato could at best not die if it hid in some dense forest

[somber sphinx]

The devs have said that carno and cera wil be eaven if they bott play right

[hollow canyon]

Carno had what Cerato feared the most - bleed and speed

[hollow canyon]

no, that's about how this match up worked in legacy

[drowsy furnace]

but cera did like 350 damage and carno did 200 so it still felt fair

[hollow canyon]

Legacy Carno abused Cerato in ways that it wasn't even funny

[somber sphinx]

Oh

[hollow canyon]

irrelevant since Carno had enough bleed to send Cerato to the character select while barely actually fighting it

Cerato had the worst bleed resistance in the game

I guess it may have been rivaled by Pachy but still

it literally bled out from a paper cut

and Carno had both speed and bleed, if someone was good at Carno they could just abuse Ceratos all they wanted with them being unable to do anything about it

you just run in before your heal tick occurs - double bite the Cerato, run off and heal its bleed a few seconds later and wait until it dies

nothing it can do about it aside from pressing alt+f4 really

but yea bad Carnos could lose that fight very easily

Cerato was very good vs noobs in legacy

amazing turn rate, great damage output

[drowsy furnace]

wait.... ceras turn radius is good enough to where it could just dodge a bite most the time

[hollow canyon]

for anyone that would try to get into a dogfight with one or try to facetank one it would send them six feet under easily, it didn't work vs people that actually knew how to play

[hollow canyon]

you're not dodging a good Carno player as Cerato, Cerato turns well but not that well and it's very sizable, it's not a Utah or Dilo to dodge Carno that easily

admittedly again - Carno had a really weird buggy bite

bad ones missed it a lot

and to be perfectly honest - I've never been good at Carno myself, I disliked that animal in legacy a tonne cause it was a balancing joke

probably the easiest animal in the game to survive as with a high potential for abuse against a few animals and absolutely useless against the rest of the roster(lest you had a big pack on your side)

just a badly designed playable, Evrima Carno is thankfully anything but that

well aside from that dumb charge maybe

[drowsy furnace]

dumb charge? whats wrong with this one T_T

[hollow canyon]

It's just a weird and ill-fitting move

You have the fastest carnivore in the game that turns poorly so you give it a special ability that makes it... run even faster and turn even worse?

[drowsy furnace]

wdym it doesn't fit it's got fat horns on its head?

[hollow canyon]

I mean it doesn't fit what this animal has going for itself

it doesn't need to be even faster and turn even worse

it already turns like a truck and runs extremely fast

[drowsy furnace]

I mean.... its supposed to ambush things... so giving it more speed helps give less reaction time to what your ambushing

either way what attack would make sense?

[hollow canyon]

What would help better if it was supposed to ambush stuff is an ability that it could use at point blank instead of having to create space between itself and its target, normal ambush abilities want you to get as close to your target as possible, Carno wants to be far from its target to be able to gain enough speed to even be able to use the charge.

Idk, some head ram attack that it could use at point blank but I really don't think that fits Carno

[drowsy furnace]

sooo hear me out

how about we keep the ram bc it does make sense, and swap its alt bit for some head smack you want

[hollow canyon]

I mean - the ram is staying because the devs aren't going to go back and change how this ability works

and head smack isn't coming because that's more work on an already finished animal

[drowsy furnace]

I meant in our conversation lol

[hollow canyon]

I'm just saying in general - charge is not something that Carno needs in general, it's a niche ability that has its uses at times but it's not what Carno wants to be doing considering the rest of its stats

it's just not designed as an ambush hunter

I guess it was improved with regard to that on 4.5 though

as it was allowed to pick up speed faster

before you needed to have half a football field between you and your target to even be able to use the charge, ngl quite a lot of people were still getting hit by it but quite a lot of people playing this game are just kind of not paying attention to their surroundings at all

[drowsy furnace]

the attack still feels right to me but I'm not tryin to spend 5 hours arguing so I'ma go play ark

[hollow canyon]

I mean that's fair, iirc Ark has Carno just gore stuff with its horns, pretty neat idea tbh

[drowsy furnace]

that's what its alt attack should be lol... the horn smack in ark

[hollow canyon]

I mean I don't disagree I'm just saying that it's unlikely to happen because they devs have a tonne of work animation-wise with other playables so they most likely just aren't touching Carno.

[hollow canyon]

@halcyon orbit Damn, when i read your description of the current game I actually thought that it sounds really good and that I wish I could play it.

[halcyon orbit]

It's been on my mind a lot as of late, because I'm a Herbivore player and I often have issues with my own species more than other dino's. It's why I tend to default to pteranadon. Simply put: that way if I'm screwed over I can get right back into the game without any real loss because a ptera can fly right away.

[hollow canyon]

I mean I'm saying that I wish the game worked the way you describe it but it unfortunately doesn't.

There's little to no competition for food. People merely kill for fun

I think almost all of the killing I did since update 4 was released was pretty much purely for sport.

[halcyon orbit]

I mean that's why I put it in balance feedback ^_^

Who knows if they will make any changes but now there's a chance it might help the game improve ^_^

[hollow canyon]

I don't think I've ever had a situation that you describe there e.g. "oh no, there's two of us and enough food for just a single dino, what do we do?". I may have specifically killed people for nutrients at times but tbh... I probably would've killed them anyways even if they didn't give me any nutrients just because it's fun.

Sometimes I'd do some surplus killing just to leave more food for others

[halcyon orbit]

I think the amount of food available is good myself, but different opinions and all that. My main concern was more that no matter what: one player always loses. The example wasn't something that would likely happen currently, but it was very common in pre evirma and at the start of evirma, before AI was added. And even after, it could be hard to find it.

I just feel that there should be situations where both players can win. ^_^

If that's not something they want to add that's fine, it's not my game. I'm not the one making it. Hopefully that makes sense ❤️

[hollow canyon]

I actually kind of wish the game was more like pre-update 1 or perhaps early update 2 Evrima

where food for carnivores was very limited and you actually needed to scavenge bodies and play smart to get to adult

instead of... whatever it is now

[halcyon orbit]

I mean, if you killed less dinos for sport you'd have less food to eat 😉

[hollow canyon]

oh yea, definitely

[halcyon orbit]

Alright, imma head back to the aether, toodles. o/

[livid spindle]

I think if cera has a higher attack power, at 1v1, it only needs to point its own direction at carno, and bite each other when carno comes running, but pay attention to the distance to avoid being collided.

In an ecological observation video of the developer, carno didn't dare to confront cera head-on, but carno didn't go far either, because cera couldn't catch up with them. It seems that cera is stronger in battle, but cera must also be vigilant.

[silk harness]

I've always felt this way too. I think AI has been bad for the game. Growing an update 1 utah was somewhat luck-based, but at least it was challenging and engaging.

I'd be interested to see how the current roster would be without AI. Also would probably need higher hunger upon spawning and slower hunger drain

[hollow canyon]

Pretty much ^

All good things as far as I'm concerned

[hollow canyon]

As for this - yea maybe, idk Cerato in general however... messing with Carno at that size disadvantage is not really a good idea. I think that in group Ceratos should actively go after Carnos but 1v1 they should be doing their best to avoid Carnos since Carno is just way bigger than Cerato.

[placid reef]

i'd say cera bullies carnos that stray away from their plaines

[fresh laurel]

UTAH PURR GONE????

[dusky surge]

cera should only have more of a fighting chance in areas like jungles, forests, swamps or rivers, plains and arid should basically just lead to a carno wiping the floor with the cera

[placid reef]

thats what i meant, any carno that goes away from flatlands is asking to be bullied by a cera

so for ex utah or teno could very well go in a forest since they ca run from cera but a carno cant follow since it may find a cera there

[slim dragon]

Wasn't day 1 utah like 110 km/h ?

[placid reef]

idk, i just know it was fast AF

[mental roost]

I'm honestly kind of worried that Cerato may end up feeling.. really weak and useless; it's a scavenger, and majority of the map is plains right now. If it can't do its job without being bullied, then...what's the point? I honestly think Carno shouldn't be able to wipe the floor with Cerato, but it's generally just a fight that Carno is better off ignoring, or moving away from; not like the thing can chase it with its stubby legs anyway.

-Also yeah, both Tenoto and Utah in update 1 and 2 were fast as hell.

[placid reef]

so its a map issue not a cera/carno issue

[mental roost]

Eh?? Sort of? That and most fights in general tend to happen in the open fields(general comfort, largest part of the map, and well; you can see what you're fighting), where corpse visibility is also the highest(Quetz would be fantastic for this, due to its ability to fly out of harms way and see everything from up above, letting it spot and get to corpses easily).

I can see Cerato hunting the best in forests and jungles though, especially if it's not particularly fast; the thing still needs to hunt afterall and not be Jack Horner's Rex but smol.

[dusky surge]

i do agree with cera being something not worth the trouble of fighting. I generally see cera as a massive pest to carno that is too much work for very little reward. Giving cera a stamina-draining grapple could be interesting, basically means fighting a cera may just end up with cera just draining and leaving with carno standing there looking like a doofus.

[placid reef]

so fights take place in fields bc of visiblity, so again a map issue bc jungles arent well designed for general gameplay

[dusky surge]

Like, if you see a cera, and you're full enough already, just give it your food rather than dealing with its bullshit kind of deal

[placid reef]

cera i see as not that lethal but just has BS mechanics

[mental roost]

Stun resistance, bs mechanics, and a stubborn little shit; that you can run away from with ease. Just give it your gorbage unless you're that desperate for food.

Just wonder what the hell it'd actually be hunting though(current roster doesn't seem to have too many good options for Cerato to actively predate on)

[placid reef]

teno i see very well

both share biomes, very similar weights and play styles

[dusky surge]

i honestly don't think it SHOULD be generally actively predating. It'd be more doing things like killing utahs over food, stealing food from others, so on. Hyper scavenger. I'd even increase its scent range to better assist it in its tomfoolery

also cera is MEANT to have a magy matchup

[placid reef]

i mean teno is plausible too

when both are meant more jungles and marshes, both are are brawlers and have similar weights

[mental roost]

I wouldn't make Cerato exclusively a scavenger(gives me bad Jack Horner vibes); but would still like it to be really good at it and stealing kills.

[placid reef]

unlike Rex Cera at least has plausability for scav lol

or at least not a far fetched fantasy

[dusky surge]

idk how much i'd like a super hunter cerato either. I see cera as almost the ying to carno's yang. Carno is fast for size, cera is slower. Carno has poor turn, cera has great turning. Carno is an extremely active hunter that hunts small game, cera is a slower animal that focuses more on bullying opponents away from their kills. IDK, a defensive carnivore has always been way more interesting to me

[mental roost]

Tenoto feels very dangerous for a Cerato; which is fine, though I don't feel that it'd be something Cerato would like to readily hunt. It could opportunistically kill utahs, Dilos and what not in the jungle maybe, but they can all escape it pretty easily too, unless it has enough damage to take them out fast enough(which I doubt).

[placid reef]

teno in no way would be smth cera would hunt actively, just a 50/50 match, but matches that are 50/50 should only happen from desperation

[dusky surge]

cera seems like something that most frequently ends up killing smaller carnivores over food disputes, rather than an active herbivore hunter

i honestly think it's not 50/50 and instead way more in teno's favour

[mental roost]

Tenoto vs Cerato feels more like 60-70 vs Cerato..

poor Cerato

[placid reef]

i'd say depends on how good of a brawler cera will be

[dusky surge]

it probably won't have NEARLY the same level of stun or knockdown as a teno

nor the speed to really help it against teno's attacks the same way utah or carno's speed helps them

[placid reef]

but it might have increased resistance to that in comparison

[dusky surge]

i really only see cera having bleed resist, not stun resist or anything like that

[placid reef]

there was in that cera trailer an ability of sorts, i can see while in that it has increased stun resistance

[mental roost]

I'd honestly give Cerato a bunch of resistances, just to help make it that much more irritating to fight.. Still; if it can't fight things off of their kills, and do so frequently enough it's kind of ..going to suffer no matter how defensive you make it. When I imagine defensive carnivores, I mostly imagine large Spinosaurids like Suchomimus or Spinosaurus who suck at chasing prey on land, but still have an active source of food(in the water), and do better holding their ground.

I'm interested in seeing what the devs do with it though, and genuinely hope it's not a pushover that gets wiped around and denied being an interesting playable because of poor performance against other carnivores.

[placid reef]

again, i dont see cera as smth that will fight much, just be soo annoying to deal with that its not even worth it

[mental roost]

You'd need some combat ability to do that though, which would imply having fighting skills and unique mechanics otherwise, well..not a very lively Cerato(because dead like Evolve). It's not some flyer who can evade your attacks and scream in your ears over and over that needs to have duct tape over its mouth.

[placid reef]

just having an infectious bite, a plethora of resistances, good agility and likely a grapple would make it annoying as hell

likely not lethal to anything larger than it but with strong aftermath

[dusky surge]

Still dislike the idea of infectious bite

Sounds like venom rip-off

[placid reef]

i mean this would prob just make you vomit and affect your food take in, while venom has more substantual effects

troo venom looks like this just turned to 11

[dusky surge]

Vomit sounds like a WAY more substantial effect lmao

Although vomit would 100% keep anything away from it

[placid reef]

well one has instant effects at night and is used to help in hunting, and the other will prob take time to have its effects visible

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxIAIqt8DCSZfCS_pyNoza09hmBCmK-9N1 this looks like one of its abilities and i'd guess this was the infectious bite

so its smth it would need a corpse near and is used more in threat

[mental roost]

I'm kind of iffy on Cerato having an infectious bite myself,.. A grapple might work, but I'd be interested in seeing how that could work out, and still prove useful to what the idea/goal is for Cerato as a playable and be satisfying to pull off. Could do both, though not sure if that'd overkill or not(I feel like making enemies throw up would make them want to fight for the corpse more though?? But that might just be me)

[hollow canyon]

I mean I do think that Cerato should have a much better shot at 1v1ing Carno in the woods but in general.... Cerato defeating a Carno in combat is like an average Islecorder having a go at Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson(the actor who's played "The Mountain" in Game of Thrones). Is it possible? Yes... I guess? Is it likely? Not really?

One of those animals is just significantly larger than the other.

Carno is just more robust, taller, longer... just larger in pretty much every dimension you can think of.

2 Ceratos should cause Carno to run for the hills and pray though.

[placid reef]

i mean when one of Carnos biggest strenghts is its speed, that get limited heavily in a forest

[hollow canyon]

Yea it's also not very agile, Cerato could run around and take bites at Carno in such conditions using its vastly superior agility

I can absolutely see a good Cerato taking down a Carno like that

but in general I don't think it would be a good match up for Cerato necessarily

[placid reef]

cera would be the carni version of teno, high skill ceilling, more reliant on biome than teno tho

[hollow canyon]

idk about it being the carnivore version of Tenonto, it doesn't seem to work anything like Tenonto does and I seriously doubt it will be anywhere near as difficult to play

Tenonto also doesn't just have a high skill ceiling, it has the highest skill floor in the game on top of that

it's definitely the hardest animal to just pick up and play

[carmine patrol]

I agree, the only thing they'll have in common is that they're at the same weight class.
Teno and cera matchup would also be terrible, heavily on the teno's side imo

[hollow canyon]

I absolutely agree

One of the things that I can think of that would make Cerato really good at bullying stuff off corpses(even potentially something larger like Carno) is

you know how Cerato stands on top of that body in its teaser?

And opens its jaws sort of growling at Carno?

I think that this could be a sort of buff that it throes at itself to just increase its attack rate for a short duration sort of giving it a berserker-like buff

[carmine patrol]

true, which is why I'm proud to be a teno main hehe

[hollow canyon]

and making it attack just much faster

this would be something that you really wouldn't be want to dealing with

[carmine patrol]

hmm, that would be cool

[hollow canyon]

of course it would still have to remain wary of Carno's charge cause if you start standing on top of a body and growling at it like an idiot just facetanking a charge - well yea, you'd deserve to die

but if you were to just start mauling it

with that buff(which could also potentially decrease the damage you receive for the duration)

I think it could just facetank a Carno for a short time while this ability is active

it would play into this animal being a sort of honey badger/not taking anything from anyone, little bully

but that's just my suggestion

or one of them anyways

[carmine patrol]

I also like the theory of it filling its mouth with all of the dirty toxic decaying stuff that it eats, giving it a "venomous" bite that makes you sick

[hollow canyon]

yea the "septic bite" idea

[carmine patrol]

or maybe it could just have a very bad breath that makes the carno sick when it smells it XD

[mental roost]

Cerato gobbled up 20 packs of onions and garlic

[placid reef]

if cera is anything less than a scavanger honey badger i'd be mad dissapointed

[azure crescent]

good idea but not logical

[livid spindle]

But I think carno's performance in 1v1 is not good, and it is easier for carno to give full play to its speed advantage when fighting in teams.

[hollow canyon]

I don't see why its performance would be not good in a 1v1

especially considering it's a small game hunter... fighting well... small game in this case

I really don't think that people quite realise how much bigger Carno is than Cerato, it just towers over it

[livid spindle]

In reality, Cerato is smaller and carno is bigger, and there is a big gap between them. But in the game, I think Cerato will be close to 1600KG, and its attack power may be higher, so it is better than carno, but carno also has the opportunity to use collision. In 1V1, collision hardly hits unless you see it before it sees you.

[hollow canyon]

why do you think it will be close to 1600kg?

[livid spindle]

In 1v1, carno has almost no chance to beat teno who has been staring at himself, but in 3V3, carno will be in all directions, which makes teno have to look around at any time, and it is possible for carno to form a part to fight more and less. teno uses rear attack, which is more inconvenient when actively supporting teammates, but Cerato will certainly perform better in this situation.

[hollow canyon]

Idk why you're even comparing Cerato to Teno

Cerato will likely get clapped by Teno hard

[livid spindle]

If it is less than 1600KG, it will be knocked down by teno's tail attack and kicked off by teno. If it is heavier than carno, it will go against reality and make carno hardly win.

[hollow canyon]

yea, it will most likely get knocked down by Teno's tail attack and kicked to death

that's just how large Cerato is based on the bits and pieces of information we have on it

Cerato in general has little to no business going against an adult Tenonto

iirc it was Dondi who said that Carno will be the smallest predator that Tenonto won't be able to send running for its life just by looking its way

which heavily implies that Cerato shouldn't be messing with a Tenonto

[livid spindle]

The only information we know is that carno doesn't dare to fight Cerato at all, and we can believe that Cerato may have strong fighting power.

[hollow canyon]

Kissen was asked about Cerato's size and she said that the one on Doctor Nova's size chart is about right in terms of what they're going for

This one basically

and that's much smaller than Carno

[livid spindle]

If Cerato is smaller, its position is more like that between carno and utah, rather than being able to drive carno away and rob them of their food. In addition, in the official video, Cerato looks like Carno in size.

[hollow canyon]

The teaser you're talking about was made at the time when Cerato's size wasn't determined(it still isn't) That Cerato is basically legacy Cerato.

It hasn't had any changes to the size of the model yet

at that point(well matter of fact I'm pretty sure it still hasn't had them since well... it's not in the testing phase yet)

[hollow canyon]

Just a reminder that Carnotaurus when it was first shown was an Allosaurus-sized monster but that didn't last

Yea that's a legacy Cerato basically

[livid spindle]

I think Cerato will be smaller than carno, but the difference is not big, otherwise Cerato won't drive carno away so easily.

So I think it will be 1600kg, otherwise it will be knocked down by teno, which will make it difficult to fight teno.

Cerato's speed is similar to teno's. I hope this doesn't mean that it will always be chased by teno and pachy.

[hollow canyon]

It isn't meant to be fighting Tenonto

And idk how you could possibly know Cerato's speed

even the devs don't know it yet, it is yet to be established, same as its size

[livid spindle]

I don't think it's too different from legacy.

[hollow canyon]

And why do you think that?

[livid spindle]

But at least we know its status. It can drive out carno and rob food. I don't think the official will violate this.

[hollow canyon]

There's absolutely no reason to believe it will be anything like legacy Ceratosaurus, if it was it would be trash(again)

[hollow canyon]

yea but even if it can do that it doesn't mean that it will be legacy sized or that it will be as slow as in legacy

[livid spindle]

As you can see from the video, it is not fast.

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't matter how fast it's on the video because they haven't set its speed up yet

[livid spindle]

If this is not the case in the end, there will be a big hole in their conceptual art and video.

[hollow canyon]

Which might be the case, wouldn't be the first time

Again - Carnotaurus when it was first shown off was a 10m long behemoth

it got changed later on

[livid spindle]

After pter has been weakened, I don't think it can subdue Troodon as in conceptual art.

[hollow canyon]

Deino was smaller than it is now, Tenonto was much larger on the initial teasers too

Troodon is a very small animal, idk about Pteranodon subduing it but it could probably kill it(although my money would be on Troodon tbh)

[livid spindle]

In that case, there is no point in discussing this. We can only wait for the official news.

Because each of us may be right.

[hollow canyon]

I mean - yea, the devs can change their mind even after those animals are released

update 2 Tenonto and Carno were larger than they are now, they eventually simply got downsized(rightly so)

Also note - Ceratosaurus doesn't even run on that teaser they have released, it only trots around

[livid spindle]

I think when the mechanism of nutrition determining the upper limit of body size is developed, their body size will be changed again.

[hollow canyon]

so yea, it can't even be used to gauge its base running speed

[hollow canyon]

big doubt on that

No one has ever said that changing model sizes based on nutrition will be a thing in the game

[livid spindle]

They said that in the future, your nutrition during growing up will determine your final weight, which is part of the diet mechanism.

[hollow canyon]

No, they said that your nutrition will determine what your animal is good at, depending on your diet you might be better at some things, they never mentioned size as being one of those things being affected by the diet.

[livid spindle]

I remember having it.

And you're talking about what they said longer ago.

[hollow canyon]

Can you provide a link then?

[livid spindle]

But before it really comes, it may change.

I don't remember where it is, but just last time, someone mentioned the further update of the diet mechanism, and the developer said it might be in up6.

[hollow canyon]

No, I'm asking specifically for some proof of the statement regarding diet determining eventual size of the playable.

That's just a really wild suggestion and I've never seen devs imply anything like that.

[livid spindle]

This is meaningless. If they decide to do it, they will do it eventually. Our discussion will not change anything.

There is no need to discuss this matter with others if you only insist on your own opinions and don't accept any opinions from others.

[hollow canyon]

This isn't a matter of opinion though - you're making a claim that the devs have made a specific statement - I'm asking you to provide evidence supporting that. I'd very much like to see where they said that nutrition will affect the size of the model.

I'm not saying it's impossible for them to have made such a statement but I remember what they were saying about the effects of diets that they intend to introduce in the future and that was not one of them.

[livid spindle]

I went back and looked at it again. What they mean is that the creature that always keeps the best nutrition will be stronger than its kind in adulthood. Maybe it's not necessarily the weight. Maybe I misunderstood it.

[hollow canyon]

Yea, that's pretty much how I remembered it

It's not even the weight I had in mind, I was specifically talking about the model size

Carno and Tenonto weren't actually that much heavier back then, they just... were bigger

[livid spindle]

In reality, carno is heavier and teno is lighter, but as a game, you can't let a species simply become other people's food. Animals like teno also give it fighting power that it shouldn't have.

[hollow canyon]

Carno is kind of/sort of where it should be atm

Tenonto is just... a completely different animal than it is in the real world

same goes for Spinosaurus - both are "technically" oversized but at the same time... not really since their anatomy is just completely different

[livid spindle]

It is easy to have this kind of problem when animals from different times and regions are put together. Some animals are of this size because there are no more powerful predators in their environment.

[hollow canyon]

I mean... Cerato specifically coexisted with at least 2 if not more predators that were(much) larger than it and likely faster on top of that too

[carmine patrol]

It makes sense, no way cera is heavier than carno, it should be as heavy as teno if not smaller

[hollow canyon]

Carno is 1800kg atm

so it would still be smaller at that weight

nevertheless - much larger than any Cerato irl

[eager ledge]

If it wasn’t very different from lecacy the cerato would actually weigh slightly more than carno

[drowsy furnace]

Bro aken been arguing with people about carno v Cera for a whole day💀

[eager ledge]

Agreed the makes no sense since carno is biult for speed not robustness

[hollow canyon]

Oh I just take a look in here every now and then while doing other stuff. I've been arguing about Cera vs Carno for a long, long time now(not that I particularly like either of those two theropods, I think I prefer Cerato out of the two tbh)

[eager ledge]

There is more evidence showing that they were more for display and possibly monitor lizard type shove fights

[drowsy furnace]

Ok ok, it might not make sense but it's fun to smack people going full speed from a bush

[eager ledge]

The interesting thing about that is the irl it’s spine and neck would snap because it doesn’t have a spine lock mechanism

[drowsy furnace]

So technically my carno has died multiple times bc it's neck should be snapped

[eager ledge]

Yes

[eager ledge]

The main reason a pachy could ram is because they have a extremely thick skull and they have the special spine lock mechanism in there spine

[eager ledge]

Unfortunately the carno doesn’t have the spine lock mechanism

[hollow canyon]

Yea no, Carno wouldn't be charging, Pachy would be using its head as a weapon... just not by ramming iirc the current assumption is that it did what its alt attack causes it to do

just sort of smash things with its head

but yea it wasn't charging stuff either

Carno irl didn't have to be charging, it had a very powerful jaws, highly stress resistant, the biteforce it sported is estimated as being higher than that of an Allosaurus of similar size.

[stark knoll]

@sweet hollow Health=weight. 500kg is 500hp

[alpine plover]

Yo I'm glad this generated an intelligent argument.

Carno should definitely die if it does what BRENDAN says it does lol

[hasty coyote]

@glass hornet What do you mean by that? Are you saying its attacks hit too quickly or it can attack many times too quickly?
Also, pachies kinda have to be aggro towards most dinos, if they get hit first by basically anything, they die. Also, these are people playing the dinos, so people are just going to be over aggro all the time.

[hollow canyon]

She's saying that Pachy cancels the attacks of other animals

[glass hornet]

yeah

[hollow canyon]

It's absolutely cancerous to deal with especially if you're slower than it e.g. a Tenonto

If a Pachy goes after Teno - Teno is pretty much dead unless it can outplay it

[golden coral]

@celest copperStego used to turn much worse, and then it couldn't defend itself. It also had only ten swings at one time, and it was the same, it could not defend itself. Both of those ideas are terrible and would make stego pretty much incapable of actually fighting, especially together.

[hasty coyote]

ah, ok that I can agree with to an extent. Teno's attacks should not be completely canceled. but carno's should.

[hollow canyon]

I don't think either should be canceled

Pachy is a midget

it shouldn't be canceling attacks of animals much larger than itself

[hasty coyote]

I mean like the ram/charge interaction and potentially bites

[hollow canyon]

ram/charge interact exactly as they should - Carno gets head fractured, Pachy gets body fractured, both get punished, Carno is useless for the time being and borderline blind and Pachy has to get out during that time since it can't continue fighting at that stamina level

bites shouldn't be canceled unless you land a hit on Carno's head

[hasty coyote]

my only issue with that would be phasing though its head and hitting the ribs, then still taking 1/4 of your hp or more

my main thing is that pachy can only tank 3-4 hits. If I get punished for hitting my ram, it would make pachy much worse.

[hollow canyon]

I mean when it comes to Carno vs Pachy match up I suggested what should be done about it some time ago now

I'd just remove the stun and make it so that Pachy causes a disarm on Carno if it hits it

then again - if the attack is already being dished out

you should get hit by that

if you hit Carno before it bites you then you're good

but there's no way you're stopping something 4 times your size from biting you if you bump it with your head mid-bite

Although I'd hold on with any discussion regarding these two, there were some changes to how they interact in the stress test from what I've heard

according to what I was told Pachy is in a much better spot vs Carno atm

not necessarily to the point where it can kill one 1v1 but it's... technically possible from what I was told

then again - second hand information, I will check it for myself when the update comes out

[hasty coyote]

From what I know, pachy got turn buff while holding a charge, but a raw damage reduction. I think it may have also gotten a stam buff, but I could be wrong on that. Carno also got some nerfs from what I heard, but I'm not sure what.

[hollow canyon]

yea it got a stam buff

as in - it can dish out more rams now from what I vaguely remember

it can also fracture a Carno with tapram iirc

[hasty coyote]

Personally, I am happy with the stress test changes since it fixed all of my issues.

[hollow canyon]

Carno had its xenomorph jaws fixed

Yea I think ST changes were good in general

they did the right thing in terms of putting Carno more in its place, Tenonto got the exact buffs that I suggested for it

idk about Pachy, I've only heard things about it, I will have to test it when the update comes out

[hasty coyote]

wait wha? I'm a bit iffy on that one. I know currently you only need to barely charge a ram to break, but a tap ram is a bit too much imo

[hollow canyon]

idk, that's what I've heard, we will see when it comes out

[hasty coyote]

yep, I'll need to test it too. Also need to check if it can still knock down 1.5 tons and stun 3 tons lmao

[keen plover]

It can currently fracture a carno with tap charge iirc?

In the public build?

[hasty coyote]

No, you need to charge it slightly, otherwise you stun yourself

Like, you don't need to wait the full time to rear up, just hold for like 1/2 of a second and it breaks

[keen plover]

Ah, well in that case, I'd also love to see the matchup. Currently, that hasn't happened

Only ones I've felt are the stamina changes, not the actual combat stuff since carnos are rare

[eager ledge]

I’m familiar with irl thing but wat does irc mean

[keen plover]

iirc? If I remember correctly

[eager ledge]

I have a feeling this would be the interaction between carno and pachy if it were Slightly more accurate and the carno for some odd reason decided to ram a pachy the goat would be the pachy the cow is the carno the carno would be paralyzed

[hollow canyon]

wouldn't work like that since Carno can't use its charge lest it's moving at full speed

and Carno moving at full speed would send a Pachy flying due to having what.. 1.3t size over it?

That cow hasn't even reached its own full speed, if it did that goat would've had a bad time

and Carno moves much faster than that

it would be cracking its own skull if it tried that though

again - if we're trying to be realistic half of the stuff these dinosaurs do would not be happening

[frail bobcat]

Balance<realism

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto would be utter fodder, Deinosuchus would have to spend a large portion of its gameplay sitting in the sun to even be able to move, Utah wouldn't be pouncing stuff in the matter in which it does, Carno wouldn't be charging anything, Pachy would be clubbing stuff with its head not ramming it the way it does

and it would also be dying to Utah 1v1

[thin mantle]

Which is funny because I distinctly remember nova saying it would be impossible if not take until U9 to fix not 2 weeks back, glad it didn’t lol

[hollow canyon]

Yea I think I remember Hypernova saying that fixing that will take some time

although tbh I was really surprised by that, it really shouldn't be hard to fix attack sockets

[thin mantle]

Mhm, just gives me good ole nostalgia of a convo who’s topic has already been resolved

@celest copper We’ve experienced what a stego with a significantly lower turn rate and swing count behaved like previously, prior versions had stego turning much slower and attacking much less, this was changed to what stego has now because stego was incredibly easy to take down with just a few utahs outside the context of boulders to mesh into. Stego is not a utahs ideal target, in fact few targets could be worse. Anky and the larger sauropods are the only I can think of, mainly due to stegos superb flank and rear defenses, it’s AOE is impressive, and it makes it especially effective against pack hunters or faster moving critters. Optimizing stego down to a level where one of its least hopeful predators on a mechanical level can take it down consistently would render stego FAR too weak against any target better designed to deal with them, we shouldn’t be balancing to the lowest common denominator.
The better solution would be to remove stego until those predators exist in the game, especially since stegos attacks could use a serious rework (wink wink actual swing wink wink). It’s very odd to experience stego being the communities punching bag for balance discussions when it’s literally doing what it was designed to do well.

[hollow canyon]

A few Utahs? You could solo a Stego 1v1 with a Carno at the time

Idk if I took any pictures while doing that tbh

I still remember that sad video of Bilbo and his (Utah)pack taking down a Stego in like 40 seconds

[thin mantle]

Yeah I’m being too generous, my list of stego solos as both a Utah and Carno is extensive as well

[hollow canyon]

I haven't done that many times tbh

I think I only tried that once but I succeeded that one time

[thin mantle]

I have at least 10, I kept a tally and stopped at 5

[hollow canyon]

Neat

[thin mantle]

One of those times was in 4.0 but that stego was just awful

[hollow canyon]

Oh damn soloing one on 4.0 is actually really impressive

I've only ever tried soloing a Stego on 3.5 I think

I typically just ignore Stegos, they don't exist as far as I'm concerned

I never play it, never interact with it

unless I'm Deino

I do like to live on the edge and go after Stegos at times as a Deino

[thin mantle]

I only care about stegos when I play as a stego, I try to keep the pops low so they don’t eat all the sumac

[thin mantle]

It was at oasis, had an audience and everything. The deino’s in the water and the nearby carnos just sat collectively and watched this poor chonker get dismantled by 1 Utah over the course of about 30 minutes

Good times

[hollow canyon]

damn, impressive ngl

[thin mantle]

||in all fairness, the stego was absolute dogshit, but you kinda have to be to die to utahs anyway so yknow||

[frail bobcat]

Thats pretty cool

[hollow canyon]

Hmmm I think a good Utah pack can take down a Stego rather handily although almost certainly while incurring some losses

[thin mantle]

Oh for sure, but in the context of one, and with rocks and water near ye, yeah you just suck

[hollow canyon]

1v1 though? Yea nah, that shouldn't be happening

Lest the Stego is of special needs or something

[thin mantle]

No doubt

I had the first half on recording but the rec cut around the halfway point because I ran out of space

[hollow canyon]

oof

[azure crescent]

@sweet hollow the hp is already listed as weight

unless you mean the hp bar

[primal cloak]

@alpine plover not exactly true …

[hollow canyon]

@analog mirage Yea Carno is tall, easily spotted, very loud, moves very slowly while crouched and takes a hefty amount of time and space to actually use charge... almost as if ambushing wasn't supposed to be its main method of hunting.

[analog mirage]

If it wasn’t supposed to be it’s main method of hunting why would it have the ability

[hollow canyon]

Cause it has horns

horns good for attacking stuff = makes sense

it's literally just because it has horns, I can assure you that if Carno didn't have those it wouldn't have been given that ability

[analog mirage]

Carno is supposed to ambush with ramming. If it can’t do that all it’ll be able to do is blindly brawl

Which it shouldn’t

[hollow canyon]

Yea it's not supposed to ambush, I mean it can and good for it if it can pull that off

but that's not how it's meant to hunt stuff

it's just really bad at that against anyone that actually pays attention to the game

[analog mirage]

Ok, how’s it supposed to hunt?

[hollow canyon]

See stuff out in the open -> run it down -> maul it

[analog mirage]

That doesn’t work

[hollow canyon]

before that thing gets to the woods/dense foliage where Carno just doesn't fare well

It does work, it's the main way by which Carno kills

[analog mirage]

If you run all guns blazing at a pachy you will be punished. Same goes for Teno or other Carno

[hollow canyon]

Charging is the one that doesn't work unless you're playing against someone that watches netflix while in the game

[calm ibex]

At what point does jungle/forest stop carno in the slighest

[hollow canyon]

Other Carno - you can absolutely kill it that way, just charge it while running at it

[hollow canyon]

Yes

[calm ibex]

carno would just brawl the shit out of anything anywhere

[hollow canyon]

this is what happens when Carno tries to go after Tenonto in the woods

[calm ibex]

bad carno, not abusing hitbox

[hollow canyon]

It's much harder to abuse it when you're in the woods

[analog mirage]

That’s because charge isn’t a good ability atm and was designed poorly

[hollow canyon]

in the open it was winning against me

[analog mirage]

It’s not that charge isn’t meant to be good. It’s just not built well

[hollow canyon]

then it followed me into the woods where it got clapped cause it didn't have the space to maneuver around me and land bites with xenomorph jaws

[analog mirage]

And bad balancing

[hollow canyon]

Balancing is alright

the stress test pretty much fixes most problems for most animals

with maybe exception of Pachy, idk about that one since I've heard some worrying things about it

[frail bobcat]

The speed

[hollow canyon]

not the speed but tapram apparently fracturing now or something

I don't want to get into this discussion because it's just complete hearsay

until I get my hands on this update and test it myself I can only speak about the changes that I know have been made for sure

which is the changes to Teno,(great stuff), Carno(great stuff again) and Utah(potentially good stuff maybe? Idk if its pounce is actually fixed but it is supposed to be)

[analog mirage]

I’m not talking about U5 (cause we don’t have the hands on it and can’t make valid arguments)

[hollow canyon]

In general balance feedback is quite pointless until the update goes live and we can gauge for ourselves how it actually works now, U4 build is just effectively irrelevant since the stress test makes some serious changes

[hollow canyon]

Yea well Update 4 is completely irrelevant

You don't know how those animals are going to play with the changes included there

wait until it's out and judge it yourself

I think it should be just about alright for the most part based on what the devs and stress testers have said

carnivores are harder to grow, herbivores should be easier to grow, bite sockets are fixed, Tenonto has lower stamina costs, Pachy has a better turn rate while ramming

[analog mirage]

I’m just saying in general it’s hard for Carno to even land a charge

[hollow canyon]

I mean yea but that's not a bad thing in my opinion

it's a very powerful ability when it actually lands

[analog mirage]

If a animal can’t use a ability cause it only works against stupid players that’s bad balancing

[hollow canyon]

Idk if I'd want it to be easily landed, Carno should bite stuff and use charge when an opportunity arises, to a large extent it's a psychological tool

you don't have to actually use the charge for it to have an effect on your opponent

just watch some good Tenonto fight a Carno

[analog mirage]

I’m not saying easily land the ram. Just make it better than what it is now. Obviously you should have to wait and time it right

[hollow canyon]

you will notice that charge has an effect on the fight even if it isn't actually used

[analog mirage]

You mean it makes it easier for Carno to win

When not used

So why would the devs take time to try and center its gameplay around ambushing when it can just run up and brawl

They nerfed the stam so it focused on ambushing instead of pursuit.

Which is fine if done well. But it isn’t

[frail bobcat]

The charge is just kinda . . . Meh

[analog mirage]

It’s meh because it’s super easy to counter

[frail bobcat]

Yes

[hollow canyon]

they don't do that?

[analog mirage]

Take a look at any of carnos changes

[hollow canyon]

Oh no, they nerfed its stamina because they were nerfing stamina of every animal

[analog mirage]

Nerf stam, nerf turn radius

[hollow canyon]

and Carno is the fastest animal in the game

[analog mirage]

Ummm no

[hollow canyon]

cause it was way too good

[analog mirage]

Because it encouraged brawling

[frail bobcat]

A carno is just not very good with its charge because it does not need it

[analog mirage]

^

[hollow canyon]

umm yea, every animal had its stamina decreased

[frail bobcat]

It can brawl and its better off

[hollow canyon]

old runtimes were absolutely absurd compared to the current ones

[frail bobcat]

A utah without a pounce or a pachy without a bonk is no real threat

[hollow canyon]

You could run for minutes on end without breaking a sweat back in update 2

[frail bobcat]

But I dont know how to make its charge useful without it being overpowered

[hollow canyon]

atm the longest runtime is... Dryo at 120 seconds I think?

Charge as a matter of fact got nerfed HARD

[frail bobcat]

Only?

[hollow canyon]

in update 3

[hollow canyon]

yea, only 120 seconds

that's I think the longest runtime in the game

[frail bobcat]

I thought utahs could run for two minutes

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto is currently at around 90 or 95

[hollow canyon]

105 seconds

Carno 60 seconds from what I remember

[frail bobcat]

And stegos can run for two minutes too

[hollow canyon]

Idk about Stego, haven't tested it

[frail bobcat]

I heard

[analog mirage]

You are going against the point how Carno is meant to rely on its charge to efficiently take down prey. If it’s charge sucks it just brawls WHICH IS A HORRIBLE IDEA FOR THE FASTEST CREATURE IN THE GAME

[hollow canyon]

Utah and Pachy both have a runtime of 105 seconds though

[frail bobcat]

But utah has pretty fast stamina regen which is cool

[hollow canyon]

Yea, I'm going against that point because it's bad

[frail bobcat]

I think its actually the best in the game

[hollow canyon]

Carno isn't meant to rely on its charge, it aint no Deinosuchus

[analog mirage]

If the fastest creature was a brawler that causes issues

[hollow canyon]

Calling something a brawler means absolutely nothing to me

[analog mirage]

Sounds like a you problem

[hollow canyon]

Idk what you even mean by that, if you mean that it's too good in close quarters then you're just wrong

[frail bobcat]

A animal that is good in close combat

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto claps it with ease in meele combat

[frail bobcat]

That goes for close combat

[hollow canyon]

Good thing that Carno isn't good at that then

[analog mirage]

It’s easy to counter that by simply baiting attacks and biting

Same for pachy

[hollow canyon]

I mean that's a skill match up

if you get baited and killed - git good I guess?

[dusky surge]

that def sounds like a skill-issue on the teno's part. Teno can still clap, I've seen VERY good tenos take on two carnos at once

[frail bobcat]

But a pursuit hunter shouldnt be good in close combat

[hollow canyon]

Besides if you are baiting attacks then that doesn't sound like you're fighting in close quarters

[frail bobcat]

These are good tenos

[hollow canyon]

it sounds like you're avoiding opponent's attacks and keeping space between the two of you

cause in close quarters Tenonto just stomps Carno

lest it's like really really bad

[dusky surge]

Teno is the hardest dino in the game (for now), but that skill leads to a VERY powerful animal

Teno is VERY clearly the superior brawler

[hollow canyon]

^

Carno can brawl like Utahs and other small stuff

nothing wrong with that since its 4 times their size

[dusky surge]

If carno was capable of brawling to the level you guys say it can, carno could facetank teno and get away with it (which it can't)

[calm ibex]

u can land hits on tenos tail out side of tailslam range

[frail bobcat]

Isnt utah a really difficult animal too? Or is teno even harder?

[dusky surge]

I'd put utah and teno in similar levels, although their difficulty is VERY different and doesn't translate well to each other

[calm ibex]

if it keeps up the pressure eventually teno just flops over and dies

[analog mirage]

I’m not saying it’s 100% a brawler. But it relys on that more due to the fact that it’s charge isn’t very good

[alpine plover]

I’d say utah is slightly more difficult in terms of overall survival

[hollow canyon]

You can land hits from outside of range of Teno's attacks on multiple body parts cause Carno's xenomorph jaws - it's already fixed on the Stress test

[alpine plover]

also pounce doesn’t work now, so there’s that

[dusky surge]

IDK about the charge not being good, a well-aimed headshot charge can utterly OBLITERATE some animals (I think it can actually one-tap utah)

[frail bobcat]

The point is that carno does not need its charge because its good without it because the charge can be countered easily

[dusky surge]

Charge is situational, you can't rely on it for every fight you're in, but if you get it, it's a MAJOR headstart in the fight

[hollow canyon]

that heavily depends and is entirely circumstantial - good Teno will clap you if you don't use the charge

[frail bobcat]

No, cant a utah has to much health for that

[hollow canyon]

^

[analog mirage]

It CAN. But that can is very hard because things like pachy and Teno can turn around in a instant to counter that even if you play well and get in the absolute closest bush possible

[hollow canyon]

I mean yea, nothing wrong with that

[dusky surge]

I believe carno charge does 300-350 damage. x1.5 = >450

[frail bobcat]

No it does less

[hollow canyon]

Have you tested it because tbh I have a feeling it does less than that?

I will test it at some point but

[frail bobcat]

But does matter because the utah is dead anyway

[analog mirage]

Just cause a charge can do great damage doesn’t mean it’s good at dealing that great damage

[hollow canyon]

can't be bothered to play the game atm, haven't touched it in weeks

[dusky surge]

either way, i don't think we should be dismissing carno charge. If used well, it can be a guaranteed kill on smaller animals, and for animals like teno, it's a MAJOR headstart in the fight

[hollow canyon]

rightly so - it's a decent if somewhat niche ability. It doesn't really fit Carno imo but it does have its uses

[analog mirage]

Sure, nothing wrong with a carnivore getting it’s ass whooped cause it played smart and waited till the right opportunity to ram only to get countered in two seconds cause it’s countered by pachy who just has to look behind it and win

[hollow canyon]

Not every special ability needs to be the main thing that the animal is about

[analog mirage]

You are right. But they are a main part of its playstyle

[frail bobcat]

Rex`s special abiliy wont be so impactful

[analog mirage]

Imagine stego without swing, Deino without lunge, Utah without pounce

[hollow canyon]

I think the main part of Carno's playstyle is - fast, low stamina, good in the open, low damage, good at killing small stuff

[analog mirage]

Why is Carno charge any differsnt

[frail bobcat]

Not with carno

[hollow canyon]

I mean I don't consider Stego's swing a special ability

it kind of boggles my mind that it's not its main attack

[analog mirage]

Well it is

[hollow canyon]

just lol at Stego biting stuff

[analog mirage]

Base attacks involve bites. Everything has one. Everything just has a special ability it will probably try to use more than that actual bite

[hollow canyon]

Well in your mind, I really don't think that it's a special ability, neither is Tenonto's tailslam/kick/clawswipe

[analog mirage]

Sounds like a personal opinion

[hollow canyon]

That's a bizarre way of looking at things, it pretty much makes it so that "base attacks" are a thing for only carnivores

[frail bobcat]

I bet that the rex wont relie on his speciaa ability that much if it wants to make kills

[hollow canyon]

Yea I was about to say that what you said there sounds like a personal opinion

[analog mirage]

Some rely on them more than others but everything uses the special ability to its fullest involving its gameplay

The idea of Carno small game hunter is ridiculous

[frail bobcat]

Pesky has entered the chat

[analog mirage]

I say it because restricting a creature to only small prey isn’t fun when it’s big enough to hunt things

[unborn iris]

Pachy cancelling a charging carno isn't really losing for the carno. You get head fracture for 2 minutes and they get body fractured for 5 minutes. Body fractured pachy is pretty screwed if it can't get away.

You can't charge a ram, tap rams don't work well against carno. You can only run half the distance or use half the attacks.

The problem comes down to people only playing their one dino, I think. And are unable to actually see the situation from both sides. So you really don't even know how to counter them.

[lofty trellis]

i would like dmg for utah to be increased

[analog mirage]

The bite should do more bleed if anything but the main use of bleed is pounce which would do much more

[alpine plover]

What's that? Its not showing up.

[hasty coyote]

cow and goat butt heads, cow does not get back up...

[alpine plover]

What was he saying? I know the clip but how wouldn't that work?

[hasty coyote]

"pachy should have its neck broken going against larger animals of far greater weight"-you
pachy in this situation would be the goat, and it took down a far larger creature. Essentially, there is no reason pachy should die/get hurt from ramming something just because its larger.

[alpine plover]

Yeah but then Brendan told me carno should break its neck.

So true, and counter offer.

[slim dragon]

Answering directly in the feedback channel is never a smart thing to do, especially if your answer is trolling

[hasty coyote]

Irl, pachy would break its neck too, its not a goat. Personally, I just like how the carno charge v pachy ram interaction works currently.

Carno loses damage and sight, so it has trouble finding the pachy and has to leave if there are other threats nearby.
Pachy loses stam and can't charge a ram, so it has to escape quickly or die.

[alpine plover]

Ask @eager ledge

I just sparked the argument. I don't really care. Just wanted to see more dinos die lol

[primal cloak]

Can’t u see the gif?

[alpine plover]

No, but Rap told me it was the goat and cow

[primal cloak]

Check it now

[alpine plover]

Yes I've seen that before

[primal cloak]

Well it shows that the sheep, although smaller has a different body, same as pachy

And I do believe carno is head kicking more like a cow rather than ramming like pachy

[alpine plover]

@eager ledge And I came to the conclusion that since goats have a locking mechanism in their spine they don't break their necks. And we assume pachy had this as well.

Now Brendan stated carno didn't have this and that Carno should be the one to break its neck or die.

[primal cloak]

Carno is wrong at the moment

[alpine plover]

Ok glad to see we've reached an impass.

Have a good one.

[unborn iris]

Exactly, it works pretty well.

[primal cloak]

@unborn iris carno is still not realistic, should not ram, rather kick from close distance. And yes pachy is sort of the Cretaceous ‘a sheep

[unborn iris]

Nobody is arguing realism. It's a game. Well, I wasn't arguing realism.

[primal cloak]

It tends to be realistic, and anatomically correct isn’t it?

[stark knoll]

No

[hasty coyote]

almost none of the abilities in this game are realistic. So realism should not be used. Balance>realism every time

pounce, charge, ram, tail slam, skimming, hypsi in general, etc.

[stark knoll]

Tenonto would not be able to kick or tail slam, and should be bipedal. Utah is completely fictional. Hypsi was not a bird of paradise and wouldn't spit

[hasty coyote]

or jump 10 feet in the air, and likely not climb either

and we can't forget about dilo and troodon having venom, troodon mimicry too.

[primal cloak]

@stark knoll Unless you’ve seen them alive u can’t really say what and how they were

[slim dragon]

They kinda contradict the laws of physics tho

[primal cloak]

But there’s a general tendency to respect the reality, the proportions…

[slim dragon]

And I don't think dinos irl did that

[stark knoll]

Isle dinos are meant to feel like they could be real, they are NOT meant to be accurate to the real animal

[hasty coyote]

we kinda can though, we have fossils that can show a great deal of their anatomy, and occams razor.

[stark knoll]

Realism and accuracy are different concepts

[primal cloak]

@hasty coyote exactly, there’s some anatomy involved…so there is a degree of a realism that’s respected in the game…or it would be ridiculous …

So, Carno should kick rather than ram…it’s that simple 🙂

[slim dragon]

Carno ramming is fine for the game

I don't think it would look less dumb kicking than it does now when ramming

[hasty coyote]

its not though, that would require a completely new ability be created and a rebalance of the dino

plus, why would the fastest dino stop moving to kick? that literally negates its main advantage.

[primal cloak]

It would be nice to use those horns for fighting each other rather than stun other animals, those horns don’t even look they are made for creating much damage, not like bisons have …

[slim dragon]

But carnos can use their horns to fight each other

On another note, what would be the point of an attack that you can only use against your own kind ?

[primal cloak]

@hasty coyote Stop and kick…no, with such horns u dont run towards something its for close combat

[hasty coyote]

non-lethal competition. A good thing if the devs want to do stuff like limit food or good spots for nests.

[slim dragon]

Carno doesn't really look like it would use non-lethal attacks against each other tho...

And what I mean is, if carno gets a "horn-swing attack to fight against its own kind" it's fine, as long as it can also use it against other creatures

[hasty coyote]

carno specifically, probably not. But it would help for other animals, similarly to pachies ramming each other

[primal cloak]

@stark knoll accuracy is based on reality…so they might be 2 different concepts but they go together..

[slim dragon]

Accuracy necessarily means realistic
Realistic doesn't necessarily means accurate

[primal cloak]

If u want to convince me that the devs intention was not to imitate reality 100%, I understand that

[slim dragon]

Like all turtles are reptiles, but not all reptiles are turtles

[primal cloak]

@slim dragon are u sure what you’ve said is correct?…go check the logic again

[slim dragon]

I'm sure what I said is correct

You can make realistic dragons if you try to think about how they could fly and how they could breathe fire
But you can never make accurate dragons

[primal cloak]

Grammatically yes…:)

Dragons are fictional…how do you define realism?

Reality is not fictional

[slim dragon]

Believable
Something that works in our world, with our laws of physics
Reality isn't
Something being realistic IS by definition, fictional
Because if it's realistic it's not reality itself

[primal cloak]

Wrong

🙂

You are messing the concepts..

[unborn iris]

I don't think full realism would be a good game.

[primal cloak]

@unborn iris totally agreed

[slim dragon]

I think you don't quite understand the meaning of those two words