balance-feedback-discussion

[golden coral]

Ah yes, the afkgrowing is fun. You know, I don't like the afkgrowing either, I do it because you know, juvies don't have anything else to do, not even fighting :p

[hasty coyote]

I think you should be able to fight, but that means you have the risk of dying. If you decide to not care about dying, then go ahead. If you do care about surviving and getting perks and such, then dont pick risky fights.

[molten turret]

so why tf do you want more survival then pvp if you think pvp is fun?

[dusky surge]

exactly my point

[dreamy fiber]

This is not a question of whether you should or should not be able to fight.

[dusky surge]

oh my god this is fucking horrid

[half girder]

truly

[golden coral]

Because I want a survival game before a pvp game? Just because I think fighting is fun, does not mean I'm here for that. If I just wanted fighting, I'd go to a sandbox. Which we don't have yet, unfortunately.

[dusky surge]

this point is so fucking simple

[dreamy fiber]

Ikr

[half girder]

immersion was never an option.

war.

[dusky surge]

AT NO POINT, IS ANYONE SUGGESTING, THAT PVP OR COMBAT BE REMOVED OR TUNED DOWN, ONLY THAT SURVIVAL BE HEAVILY EMPHASISED

More survival, not less PvP

[half girder]

carno vs pachy war goes on

[molten turret]

sandbox doesnt show any sort of skill what so ever

[golden coral]

@molten turretI want a proper survival game. That includes fighting and killing stuff for need. It also includes not doing so unless you have that need and no other choice. I can enjoy "pure fighting" ala sandbox deathmatch, but only temporary.

... Sandbox has as much skill in fighting as survival

[dusky surge]

This game is literally just sandbox but with long respawn timers

[golden coral]

Like, you having to grow before you fight has nothing to do with how good you are at fighting

[molten turret]

bro its sandbox

[dreamy fiber]

The Isle is primarily marketed as a survival game. Its not strange that some of the fan base would prefer if survival was a greater focus given the presentation of the game.

[golden coral]

How do you think people get good at fighting, by training in sandbox..

[golden coral]

Yes? What does that have to do with your skill in fighting?

[dusky surge]

What the fuck changes the skill in sandbox vs survival lmao

[golden coral]

You know people train to get good at fighting in sandbox, and I can assure you, if we had sandbox in Evrima, you'd see many more skilled fighters.

[dusky surge]

It's the same dinosaur

[hasty coyote]

i cant wait for utahs to actually become prevalent. I rarely get to bash them and make them go flying lol.

[molten turret]

ah yes a game like that sounds so fun when you only do stuff you need to do nothing you want to do

[half girder]

the pounce is still broken ☺️

[dusky surge]

no one is suggesting such a game

[golden coral]

Yes, to me it does actually. Because I understand and treat survival for what it is. That does not mean I can't enjoy other kinds of games too you know, or like I said, enjoy mindless fighting in a sandbox every now and then.

[dusky surge]

agony, anguish if you will

[molten turret]

he did my guy

[golden coral]

Eh, I kind of like the idea, but I do want a more proper/pure survival game. But that's just me. I'm mostly pointing out that survival should be focused around your needs to remain alive.

Like.. having fun is after all subjective, so.. :p

[molten turret]

thats fine my guy im just sorry bc most people wont enjoy those kind of games where you can only do what you need to do in the game

[dusky surge]

and i agree, but getting elder/perks won't change the fact that people CAN and WILL fight because they want to. You can't stop it

[half girder]

want immersion? get religious

[golden coral]

I think you might have misunderstood a bit. When I say "do what you need", I mean that in the sense of fulfilling needs to remain alive. Not some sort of "lock" on what you can do in the game, more what you should focus on. I don't want a game where you can't fight for fun, I more so want the game to be hard enough that you might not have much time for "fun fights", because you need to worry about your survival.

[dusky surge]

Which is why I like elders, they're an option after good survival. If you wanna die as an adult and get none of the elder perks, but have a grand old time, go do that. If you're going for elder, you can play like Erik and focus more on your needs for survival

Everyone gets what they want

[half girder]

elder pachy..

[golden coral]

Of course not, nor do I want to "stop" them, I just want that to be detrimental for their survival and "progress"

[hasty coyote]

my man's dome got blunted

[molten turret]

ik you want that game but this game the isle isnt that game you want so dont try to say it could be

[golden coral]

At no point have I argued that you shouldn't be able to fight, or climb a mountain as rex for fun. Just that it should be a bad idea and something you should measure the worth of doing for the risk and all that.

[half girder]

i’m gonna wipe out the carno nation

[golden coral]

That remains to be seen. I think the Isle can become pretty similar, and I think it should be. Just like I'm sure you think it should be a different kind of game, but that's.. kind of why we all give the feedback we do and all that :p

[dusky surge]

that's literally the direction the game is going my good man, take a look at diets, elders and so on

[molten turret]

ok

[golden coral]

Just so. If you want to "progress", you focus on survival. If you just want to fight, go ahead. :p

Like, if the only way to get perks is to die by old age, then well, if you keep throwing yourself into fights, you're.. probably not going to get there. Because no matter how good you are, you're going to both make mistakes, and sooner or later run into someone who is better than you.

[dreamy fiber]

No he didnt. He said he wanted a survival game where you need to kill to survive.
This is kind of grand coming from someone who's treating combat like a genre.
Newsflash: it's not.
Survival is a genre which works well with combat mechanics.
FPS is a genre which requires combat mechanics.
Roguelike is a genre which works well with combat mechanics.

Combat systems are mechanics to facilitate the game. The game is a survival game. It is not wrong or unusual to expect the Isle to therefore focus more on survival no matter how good or fun the combat is.

[dusky surge]

nesting, gore, elders, weather, night vision, none of these are at all vital for combat, but they HEAVILY change how survival is done. The game is going in a more survival-oriented direction

[half girder]

i can’t wait to deny nerds of elder

[dusky surge]

i mean... they're probably not going to just let you do that? lmao

[hollow canyon]

Yea no, they're just trying to discourage people from fighting as much as they can

[dusky surge]

what

[hollow canyon]

It's just... probably the most baffling thing about this game

it has literally one, single good thing going for it - combat

[dusky surge]

but they're not actually adding a single fucking mechanic that punishes you for doing so what the fuck are you talking about

[hollow canyon]

and it tries to discourage you from partaking in it at every step

[dusky surge]

you can STILL FIGHT

[hollow canyon]

locked health?

diets?

hell even bleed with how it's been designed

[dusky surge]

i have seen that stop literally NO ONE

[hollow canyon]

and I never said that the devs are trying to STOP people from fighting,t hey are only attempting to discourage them from doing that

which is exactly what those mechanics are all about

[half girder]

preach

[dusky surge]

also, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Combat will ALWAYS be a part of the Isle, but locked health, bleed and diets are all to make the survival experience more about survival

[molten turret]

chad

[hollow canyon]

yea they're also all just terribad and make the game more of a chore, I don't think there's a single thing that's been introduced into this game that made it any aspect of it betters aside from combat(which admittedly the devs have in a way nailed - it's much better than in legacy)

[dreamy fiber]

Because its a survival game not a combat simulator

[half girder]

it is a combat sim

[hollow canyon]

Is it a survival game? Could've fooled me

It's like

[half girder]

it’s a br lol

[golden coral]

It's not a good survival game as it stands. But it could be one.

[dreamy fiber]

Yes the Isle really resembles primal carnage to me

[dusky surge]

as it is, it's absolutely a combat sim. But it's going to become a survival game

[dreamy fiber]

An actual combat focused game

[golden coral]

And it should be, because "combat sim" is rather mindless :p

[molten turret]

i think you forgot the word enjoyable

[hollow canyon]

with the trackrecord so far I dread the moment it becomes a "survival game"

[molten turret]

if it does im uninstaling

[golden coral]

Mindless things can be enjoyable for people, I'm sure :p As I said earlier, I enjoy sandbox slaugther a good deal too :p

[dreamy fiber]

It can simulate combat - this does not make it a combat simulator though, not in terms of genre.

Though in literal interpretation you could argue it

[hollow canyon]

the fascinating "survival" based gameplay of "who's better at sitting in a bush and avoiding interacting with anyone else"

[dusky surge]

cool i guess elders existing is enough to make you uninstall lmao

[half girder]

open world dino pvp game sim.

[hollow canyon]

damn, I'm so good at counting the leaves on bushes now

[molten turret]

bro elders dont make it a survival game

[hollow canyon]

^

[dusky surge]

i feel like a lot of people have extremely black and white view of this shit

what exactly DOES make it a survival game then lmao

[molten turret]

so? accept it nothing you can say will change my mind

[dreamy fiber]

No, the fact that you grow, each, drink and are supposed to survive to be rewarded makes it a. Survival game.

[hollow canyon]

the humans trying to survive on an island full of dinosaurs

that's what WILL make it a survival game

[dusky surge]

because as far as I'm aware, survival focus can be ENTIRELY optional and you guys can keep fighting to your hearts desire, I absolutely FAIL to see the issue here

[dreamy fiber]

The mercs won't even be doing that, and we know next to nothing about tribals

[golden coral]

Open world dino pvpve survival horror game. I think we covered most of the Isle goals there. Also fps and.. whatever tribals play in.

[dusky surge]

that shit sounds sick as tho

[molten turret]

ok

[dreamy fiber]

It almost sounds like the only thing that can be played in a survival game is humans to you guys lmao

[golden coral]

Isn't that the horror part more so :p

[dreamy fiber]

^

[hollow canyon]

it is the "survival horror" part

[golden coral]

Also survival does not require combat, just so we're clear on that. Survival itself does not actually require combat to be survival. :p

[mental roost]

This argument heavily reminds me of what happens if a game loses track of what the hell its going for and its objective as to what it wants to be...

[hollow canyon]

the game is a survival horror because it has humans in a dangerous, unfriendly environment full if deadly dinosaurs

[golden coral]

And the dinos are just survival then?

[molten turret]

ah yes Jurassic park had me shaking

[hollow canyon]

no, they aren't survival at all

[golden coral]

Quite. I would agree that might be the base issue :p

[dreamy fiber]

???

[hollow canyon]

The dinosaur part of the game is as much a survival game as "The Sims"

[golden coral]

Well the humans wouldn't be survival then either

[dreamy fiber]

So you believe that your playable affects the core gameplay loop in such a way that a human is survi Al but a dinosaur is not

[dusky surge]

why are we shitting on JP now lmao, and why are you all of a sudden upset by humans in the Isle

[dreamy fiber]

What lol

[hollow canyon]

Why not? They totally are survival

It's the dinosaurs that are NOT the survival nor the horror part

[golden coral]

There's no difference between them and the dinos there?

[molten turret]

good movie atleast a 8/10 just not scary my guy far from horror

[hollow canyon]

it's just a dino-sim

[dreamy fiber]

Dino sim does not make it not survival LOL

[golden coral]

Both playables aun around, avoid trying to get killed while getting what they need or want

[dusky surge]

if you played the human beta, you'd see the potential for horror in the Isle. That shit was incredible

[molten turret]

i did play it bro wasnt scary just bad fov

[hollow canyon]

There is a big one - dinosaurs exist in the wild which is their normal environment that they live in

Humans are not in their natural environment - they are dropped onto an island where they have to do their best to stay alive

[golden coral]

That.. does not change survival Aken

If it's a strange environment or your natural one makes no difference

[dusky surge]

they werent scary if you spent your entire time sticking around hotspots and kicking baby stegos to death lmao. I actually went and explored and the horror experience was sick

[hollow canyon]

Again - calling the dino part of the game a survival is like calling "The Sims" a survival game - it just isn't one, it's just people existing in their environment(although idk maybe you do consider "The Sims" a survival game)

[golden coral]

No, but I certainly don't think survival changes if they exist in a strange environment as opposed to their natural one

[molten turret]

ok scary is an opinion so ig your right tho you could find anything scary

[mental roost]

Isn't the Sims a bit more of a builder and managing game?? I've never really touched it, outside of seeing clips of it and the player managing a bunch of pawns.

[golden coral]

If you do the same thing, be it in your natural envrionment or not, that does not change the thing you do and if that counts.

[dusky surge]

okay cool just try and insult me because i had fun looking for scary shit lmao, very epic

[golden coral]

Otherwise you could argue that if a dino goes into a biome it does not belong in, it now suddenly becomes survival? :p

[dreamy fiber]

Bruh I don't think you understand what the survival genre is.

[dusky surge]

i dont find much scary, the Isle humans was an actually cool experience for me

[hollow canyon]

That is the definition of a survival game though - every survival game just drops a person in an abnormal environment where they have to try to stay alive.

[molten turret]

bro if you think im insulting you now your a snowflake

[hollow canyon]

no worries, feeling's mutual

[dusky surge]

i never said you were insulting me, i said you were TRYING to insult me

[golden coral]

But that's not survival. Definition of survival has nothing to do with "abnormal environment" by any means. That's not how things work.

[dusky surge]

very different

[hollow canyon]

It is very much how it works

[golden coral]

No

[hollow canyon]

Is Wolfquest a survival game?

[molten turret]

i wasnt trying to

[golden coral]

Yes?

[dreamy fiber]

Not every survival game does. That's some weeb stuff right there I forgot the word

[hollow canyon]

no it isn't

[golden coral]

Isn't that one of the few animal survival games done pretty well at that?

[golden coral]

What the hell are you on about?

[hollow canyon]

"WolfQuest is a 3D wildlife simulation video game"

[golden coral]

Which is survival

[hollow canyon]

no?

[golden coral]

Literally, simulating survival

[dusky surge]

this argument is so fucking stupid, neither are you are going to agree lmao

[hollow canyon]

Survival games are the likes of "The Forest", "Ark", "Don't Starve", "Green Hell"

The Isle with its dino-sim part is NOT a survival game

[molten turret]

not the point of an argument

[golden coral]

Yes but not due to the environment

[hasty coyote]

didnt this convo start with pachy ram and carno charge interaction?

[mental roost]

Ark

[hollow canyon]

don't call people things like that, it's against the rules

[golden coral]

If thats part of the definition of "survival" then whoever conluded that is just.. delusional

[mental roost]

https://c.tenor.com/tRn4mLEbjhcAAAAC/dies-of-cringe-sam.gif

[molten turret]

i deeply apologise if i hurt anyones feeling

[somber sphinx]

My brain cells rn

[hollow canyon]

Any examples of survival games where the player is just placed in a city doing everyday human things? Or idk any other thing being placed in its normal environment?

I can't think of a single one

[dusky surge]

they have been LITERALLY running in circles on the same fucking topic. But you know, keep trying to insult me because you don't like me lmao, idc. The point of an argument is to come to a conclusion, it is something you are meant to win or lose, that's why debates exist. However, in this specific case, neither side, nor the audience, is willing to shift on their perception, thus it's meaningless

[dreamy fiber]

Those are survival games but the core essence of a survival game is that you are presented with a hostile threat that you're against. This is usually the environment, but it doesn't have to be an abnormal one. It just has to be hostile.
The Isle has a hostile environment through the use of other players presenting the threat. (and in the future probably ai)

[dusky surge]

Its just making people more toxic over menial shit like "dinosaur survival"

[molten turret]

nah i dont talk or 'argue' to win or lose just to see what the other person thinks

[golden coral]

I don't think I can classify "living in a city" as survival, normal environment or not due to well, no really any need for actual survival as it stands. But if I just put you out in the forest and have you survive there, like you know, .. going out camping but more hardcore, is that not survival due to it being your normal natural environment then?

Unless you count only "city" as humans natural environment that is? :p

[dreamy fiber]

The Isle is literally seen as the pinnicle dinosaur survival game rn, along with the other significant ones (Bob and pot)

[mental roost]

Trying to argue with your Parent that damage to the environment has effects be like

[hollow canyon]

No, the environment in The Isle isn't hostile, it's just... normal environment for these animals. That's like putting a human in the middle of a thriving city and forcing them to go do a normal job and calling it a survival game. It just isn't one and for a good reason.

[golden coral]

Because I'm pretty sure there's still people "living in the wild" as it were

[hollow canyon]

Neither of those is a survival game

[dusky surge]

PoT isn't survival, but sure. And I'd honestly say BoB is more focused on the combat than the survival

[hollow canyon]

Idk actually - maybe BoB is one, I don't play that one

but PoT sure as hell isn't a survival game

[half girder]

bob is perfecto

[dreamy fiber]

POT is survival, but it's not the main genrebyany stretch of the imagination.

[dusky surge]

The Isle is honestly the closest thing I can see to actual survival out of these games

[golden coral]

@hollow canyonIf we made a survival game where you had to live in the wild, like some humans still do. Is that survival then, despite that being a natural envrionment and all that? Like.. humans aren't just bound to living in some million population city, right? :p

[hollow canyon]

in what goddamn world is a dino MMORPG a survival game?

[golden coral]

Or maybe we just have very different ideas of what "natural envrionment" means for humans.. xD

[hollow canyon]

I mean alright, in that case I guess World of Warcraft is a survival game too

[dusky surge]

BoB is a fucking aesthetically atrocious nightmare with some of the worst gameplay choices I've ever seen honestly

[mental roost]

I mean.. I wouldn't want to be in Detroit and Chicago late at night.

[dusky surge]

I refuse to agree that PoT is survival

[hollow canyon]

Fair, I guess you could call that ermm... "a survival"

[dreamy fiber]

The same as the Isle. They both use the same thing to present a threat - and last I check wow didn't have any survival mechanics??

[dusky surge]

It's an MMO

[golden coral]

No, for one simple reason. No need to eat, drink or anything else to remain alive. At it's very basic, you as the player has one or more bars to keep filled, or you die. That is survival at it's absolutely most basic.

[dreamy fiber]

Doesn't make it not a survival. Survival is less of a focus, its not a big one and never will be

[hollow canyon]

Like... what? Hunger and thirst? Are those the things that make a game a survival?

[dusky surge]

There's minimal punishment for death, you focus far more on quests than actually trying to survive and the game has more focus on skills and cooldowns than anything else

[golden coral]

Yes. The need to do x to fulfill a criteria, of without, you die, no matter what else is done to you, would be the most fundamental concept of survival.

In an fps, you can sit in a corner. No one ganks you, you never die.

[dreamy fiber]

Those are part of typical survival mechanics. Not always present, but are typically a good indication of what you're dealing with
Not on its own ofc

[dusky surge]

Guys I feel like we are VASTLY stretching the definition of survival here

[hollow canyon]

I vehemently disagree with that notion, I don't think that having a thirst and hunger bar are enough to make a game a survival.

[golden coral]

I did say it was the most basic. But without it, a game is not survival.

[dusky surge]

I would not call, Minecraft, for instance, survival. It has survival mechanics, sure, but it's honestly more of a sandbox. Hardcore mode, maybe I'd count, due to a HEFTY death penalty, but otherwise I'm iffy on it.

[golden coral]

The problem is that the game genre is a bit.. dumb about things

[dreamy fiber]

Pot has set its environment up simiroy to the Isle you do not have to have a harcore or permadeath survival game to be a survival game. Labels like survival are supposed to be umbrella terms

[golden coral]

Because the base of "survival" in games comes from other bases

[hollow canyon]

Idk but minecraft sure as hell feels more like a survival than TI does

[dusky surge]

eehhhhh, but PoT literally isn't survival imho

[golden coral]

So it's always another game genre + survival mechanic

I don't think there's a single game where you can't remove the "need" and still have a perfectly fine game

[dreamy fiber]

It's general more than two for any game

[golden coral]

There's no survival game where you can't remove the "survival" and still have a good game

[calm ibex]

damn its about time we get those survival elements in then 🙂

[golden coral]

Because every single survival game is built upon something else, instead of doing survival proper :p

[hollow canyon]

And again - the point is not that the devs are trying to stop people from PvPing, it's that they're trying to discourage that by utilising multiple different methods

idk what the survival aspects of this game are even supposed to be

I don't view nesting as a survival mechanic

I don't see how elders are a survival mechanic either

[dreamy fiber]

Ofc the devs aren't stopping people
They're not supposed to stop them
Pvp is inherent to the Isle's form of survival

[hollow canyon]

I guess weather is a survival mechanic?

[dusky surge]

reward for surviving.

i dont see how elders ARENT a survival mechanic

[mental roost]

Wasn't the original goal of the Isle to have a bit more Arma, and Rust inspiration?? Again calling back to earlier; trying to not lose your identity as a game is tricky, and probably one of the things you need to both keep in mind when setting a foundation and adding onto it.

There's a lot of stuff that could be done that just.. hasn't I guess, that could supplement to a more hostile environment and story/world building.

[dusky surge]

sure, they aren't necessary or mandatory, but they're still encouraging you, the player, to survive

[dreamy fiber]

With the humans that they've never succeeded with

[golden coral]

Isn't the point of elders/nesting/all that to encourage you to remain alive

Which would fall into the survival mindset

[dusky surge]

weather is a survival mechanic too, especially if they really are planning to add things like floods, droughts and fires, as that will keep people moving a LOT more

[golden coral]

Where you're encouraged to care for your life due to being able to do stuff that can further your life in turn

[hollow canyon]

I mean going by that logic combat is a survival mechanic because you can't do it if you're not alive, you can technically turn every aspect of every game into a "survival" mechanic

[dreamy fiber]

Guess this all goes to show how bad of a job the devs have done marketing the game

[golden coral]

Originally, only humans in an open world, I guess.. freeform Jurassic Park in a sense? Primal carnage but open world. Then we had the three main carnis + tribals and that. And well, now here we are.. xD

[hollow canyon]

I guess when I play league of legends me hitting people with spells is indeed a survival mechanic because it helps me stay alive which allows me to kill more people as a reward

[golden coral]

Not quite so. More so that doing these things will give you benefits. Thus encouraging you to remain alive so you can do them. Killing everything else does not yield benefits. You gain no perks for doing so.

[golden coral]

I mean, in that game, you gain a reward when everyone else is dead? :p

[hollow canyon]

Ermmm... sort of? The reward is that you get better items so you can stay alive better so... survival mechanic I guess?

[dreamy fiber]

No. That kind of combat isn't built for or designed to lends towards a survival genre. It's focused on cooperative Pvp and more fantastical genres like fantasy

[golden coral]

Isn't the goal, or win condition, there to defeat everyone else? Is what I mean.. unless I've missed what the game is. In a survival game, you don't win just because no one else is alive. You win if you're alive, irrespective of if anyone else is alive or dead.

Like, in a combat game, you win if the other guy loses. In a survival game, you win if you stay alive due to that giving you "progress", no matter if there's someone else to kill or not, or if they died due to falling off a cliff.

[hollow canyon]

oh for goodness sake, I'm not trying to imply that League of Legends is a survival game, it's more so to show that saying that "a mechanic that is helping you stay alive is a survival mechanic" is just silly because that can be applied to literally any game - even something like League of Legends which OBVIOUSLY isn't a survival game

[dreamy fiber]

Combat in the Isle does not help you grow directly. It facilitates you surviving by allowing you to play longer if you're good at it. By playing longer you passively improve in stats and will eventually gain perks for the express reason that you survived.

Combat is not mutually exclusive with survival.

Pretty much every survival game has combat.

Well
That I can think of

[hollow canyon]

oh no, you don't win in league of legends by being the last person standing, you have to destroy some building in the base of your opponent but that's beside the point

[golden coral]

I did say those mechanics earlier was meant to give you stuff, if you did them. Which you have to be alive to do. You don't gain anything from fighting, you don't gain, far as we know, a perk for killing x dino.

[golden coral]

Details really, you fully understood the point :p

[hollow canyon]

Yes but there's only one that tries to discourage combat as far as I know

[golden coral]

You don't just win there by being alive, you need the other guy or their base or something dead. :p

[hollow canyon]

well yea but to be perfectly fair idk if you can "win" The Isle at all

[golden coral]

Basically. Combat focused games rewards you for defeating your opponent. Doing so is the win condition. Survival games should reward you for remaining alive, and the win condition is just that, staying alive, independent on anyone else in the game.

[hollow canyon]

So ermmm... wouldn't that make all the MMORPGs survival games?

I mean I guess that would indeed mean that PoT IS a survival game

which I don't think it is

[golden coral]

Do they actually, you know, have any demands on you to stay alive? I don't recall Warhammer Online having me eat and drink to remain alive.. :p

[dreamy fiber]

Discouraging or encouraging combat is relative to the idea the game is trying to achieve

Take, say, this war of mine

Your goal is to survive until the fighting stops or you escape. Combat is neither encouraged nor discouraged as a whole. Instead, it is discourages against innocent persons and encouraged against combatants (so long as you don't die)

[hollow canyon]

I think some of them do not all of them though

iirc... Everquest or whatever in the world it was

[dreamy fiber]

Basically every survival game will tewat combat the way that best fits the idea of the vame

Dinosaurs fighting dinosaurs is simply what fits the is because predators need food and prey need to not die.
But because its a means to an end and not a focus in itself it doesn't merit perks on its own

[golden coral]

Well, as I said, if there is a bar you need to maintain to not die, then yes, that would class it as survival at it's most basic. Because otherwise there's no mechanic at all that can fits the core of survival. FPS = first person shooter. There's a core of what the game contains to be called that. RPG, same, there's something you can define as the core, of without, the game can not have that classification. And this is the problem with the survival genre, because it's built on the others, instead of being a thing in itself.

[hollow canyon]

Well yes but as I said - the only "survival" game that actively discourages combat is "The Isle"

[dreamy fiber]

No...the Isle neither encourages nor discourages it

[hollow canyon]

iirc you had to eat to maintain your hp or something like that but I haven't actually played that game

[hollow canyon]

it definitely discourages it lol

[dreamy fiber]

What. Because you can die?

[golden coral]

Nor have I. Hence why I asked :p

[hollow canyon]

If I want to survive in TI I actively avoid entering any interaction with players

[hollow canyon]

Because it has a negative impact on your survival in multiple ways while providing little to no benefit.

[dreamy fiber]

Then it only has a discouraging effect if you acknowledge that surviving is more importsnt than combat as presented by the game

... Which would lend itself to bring a survival game.

[hollow canyon]

If The Isle was normal - bleed would work differently, it would be set up to actually have an effect on the fight not start working AFTER the fight, the PvP tax... I mean locked health would not exist. Diets would be designed differently

[dreamy fiber]

Wth does normal mean
They've designed it the way it is because it best suits their vision on their game

[hollow canyon]

Diets literally make it so that engaging players is in the vast majority of cases just outright detrimental to you staying alive, you get little to no benefit in most cases while risking staying alive.

[mental roost]

Isn't the cost of combat in some survival games being generally the loss of all your items and progress?? Depends on the game, but I swear the Forest has something like that.. and -tries to not puke- Ark, if you don't prepare ahead of time.

[golden coral]

Bleed does have an effect to be fair Aken, if you get under 50% bleed, you will feel it, especially as a stamina dependent critter

[hollow canyon]

idk about The Forest, Ark actually does reward you for fighting as you get to loot your opponent's base or w/e

[mental roost]

You can either get a reward out of it, or be punished for it: depends on context of the game and what you're doing.

[golden coral]

Sure it's maybe not as lethal as legacy, or even PoT from what I've understood, but it's still there and it does matter

[mental roost]

And if you fail, you lose your stuff and progress; it's a double edged sword.

[hollow canyon]

and that's perfectly fine

in TI even if you win you get the other edge of the sword stuck in your chest

[golden coral]

Diets are just bad no matter if you're on an empty server or not. It has very little to do with other players I'd say :p

[mental roost]

Yeah, rip; I have no problems with combat being a double edged sword, kind of like it that way even(within reason)

[dreamy fiber]

Well it's moreikectgst diet can give you an edge against others but it is primarily jus vfocused on yourself

[hollow canyon]

Idk about that, I mean diets are a trash mechanic indeed but if I want to get a perfect diet as a herbivore it's much easier to do on an empty server as a carnivore... it's not exactly possible because most require you to hunt players for one of the nutrients but you're still better off just getting 2 nutrients off of the AI

[golden coral]

Yes but how diets are done right now is a chore, that much I think me and Aken very much see eye to eye on :p

[hollow canyon]

I very much like it being a double edged sword, the issue is that it's not a double edged sword in Evrima

it's a single edged sword that is directed at you

[dreamy fiber]

Idk Ive enjoyed diets tbh

[golden coral]

Running back and forth over the entire map isn't.. stimulating or fun gameplay really, at least not to me

[dreamy fiber]

I like having the encouragement to explore

[golden coral]

I like parts of it, the idea/concept and so on. But I believe diets should be about biome locking critters, and not as an anti-afk measure.

[hollow canyon]

there's no encouragement to explore

[golden coral]

And well, there's no exploring Frost, there are specific spots you go to, in specific routes

[hollow canyon]

It's literally just - "follow one specific route ad nauseam"

[dreamy fiber]

But I know opinions on the current build of diets is controversial to say the least

[golden coral]

With very little variation most of the time at least

[dreamy fiber]

The alternative is don't get the diet and sit on a bush. It's optional. That doesn't make it not encouragement.

[mental roost]

Pachy's Diet made me want to rip my hair out, just saying

[dreamy fiber]

You're just not forced to engage with it.

[hollow canyon]

it's not encouragement to explore at all, it's the "EXPLORE" part that I'm denying, not the encouragement part

I mean, it's not exactly an encouragement either tbh, it's just a requirement

[golden coral]

Pachy trot be slow xD

[hollow canyon]

you either get it or just quit the game

[frail bobcat]

I gotta say that im in love with pteras nutrients

[mental roost]

Tiny slow ass baby Pachy having to go from the central fields, to southern fucking swamp, to the coasts.

That also can't knock down coconuts unless it's 45% grown.

[hollow canyon]

And yes you're very much forced to engage with it

[golden coral]

Last I tried, adult is not more fun. But then I am paranoid about keeping my stam so I don't run here and there. And trot was.. meh to say the least :p

[dreamy fiber]

It's not a requirement at all. You can opt out and be fine
Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it's not what it's supposed to be

[hollow canyon]

you what "be fine"? In what world are you fine without a diet in this game?

[frail bobcat]

I have to go to the coast to get turtles, fish in good fishing spots for school fishes (i go nw for that) and fly to oasis for frogs. It really is cool that I have to travel to get the stuff that i need.

[hollow canyon]

Do you realise what having a bad diet does to your dinosaur?

[dusky surge]

i like the idea of diets being rewarding for two things
A: Going out of your way to get it
B: Staying where you know it's easy to get

So a teno can eat aquatic weeds for nutrients, like a beipi, but requires a specific perk set to make them more aquatic oriented, or it could eat, say, radish root. This keeps teno more aquatic, at the risk of a deadly encounter with a submerged predator

Currently, diets are simply a thing you go towards. I'd prefer diets either be a unique challenge or a journey to a specific location

[hollow canyon]

I mean in a way I guess you are right you CAN opt out and be fine - by pressing alt+f4

[dreamy fiber]

Every world. You can quit being passive aggressive af
But yes I realise

It's still optional.

If you choose to engage with itx that's up to you. If you don't, that's up to you.

[hollow canyon]

as optional as launching the game

[dusky surge]

you can literally live fine on one nutrient, i do it a ton whenever i play this game

[hollow canyon]

quite literally exactly as optional - if you're not engaging with the diet - just quit, you will be better off

[dusky surge]

if i dont feel like nutrient 2 or nutrient 3, i simply don't aim for them and continue to subside on jist the one

[frail bobcat]

But nutrients give you a goal that you can go for, so its kinda cool in my opioniom

[dreamy fiber]

Most of the people I okay with never fill their nutrient

[dusky surge]

i... don't feel the same way at all

just eat one nutrient and you're fine

[dreamy fiber]

I'm the only one in my friend group who does

[hollow canyon]

I mean you might be fine with spending 20 or however many hours to grow a dinosaur but not everyone is a masochist that has loads of time at their hands

[dusky surge]

just 300% the S nutrient and go on a little journey and eat whatever the fuck you want

[dusky surge]

i mean post growth

aka the fighting stage

[hollow canyon]

diets work prior to when you're fully grown too

[frail bobcat]

Diet just exists its better with it, I think

[hollow canyon]

and when it comes to fighting - diets are extremely important for people that actually know how to play the game

[dusky surge]

unless you're a carnivore in which case 50% of your life is blissful ignorance

[dreamy fiber]

You can be upset about diets all you like
There's plenty of people who don't like the current system.

But it's still entirely optional lol

[mental roost]

I'm fine with being punished for partaking in combat, possibly too much or taking too many hits in-game.. However, there's several things that just... feel empty, because of lack of pressure from the environment and how dead it feels, and the diet system making it more miserable.

Kinda relates to me somewhat being annoyed by say: 1 Utah seeing its entire pack getting killed by a Stego they tried to hunt and failing, and it then tries to fight the Stego anyway. I'd like it if fights had a cost for both parties(death, weakened, or prolonging your survival and animal's life).

[hollow canyon]

if you don't have a perfect diet and are up against someone that does and is on the same dinosaur - you're dead unless that person decides they don't want you to die

[mental roost]

I did find it fucking annoying though, back in... Update 2? I think? Trying to get back 10-25% of my health taking almost an hour as a Carnotaurus...

[hollow canyon]

yes, as I said - optional like launching the game

[dreamy fiber]

Then avoid combat :)

[dusky surge]

yea, that shit is so dumb, its literally baffling that utahs will continue to fight after 75% of their pack barely dented their prey item

[dreamy fiber]

If you wanna be on par then you best go find your diet

[dusky surge]

its one thing i hope elders address

[hollow canyon]

courtesy of locked health

[dreamy fiber]

That's still a decision you make as the player

[dusky surge]

I'd much rather the utah realises where its beat and wants to continue working to adulthood

[hollow canyon]

yes, indeed launching another game instead of dealing with this chore of a mechanic

[mental roost]

"UWU!! I'm going to avenge my pack and bring down this 6 ton behemoth to avenge my fallen shinobu clan!!! FOR THE SICKLE LEAF VILLAGE-"fucking dies

[hollow canyon]

not a hard decision to make btw

[dreamy fiber]

"I have a better chance if I do this" is not the same as being required to do something

[dusky surge]

its incredible how the pack animal continues to fight when the pack part is removed from the equation

I have seen so many animals have a chance to flee and survive and they just turn around and kill themselves

Honestly, this update has been AWFUL in terms of surviving in any way but fighting because of our good friend "insane tracking"

[slim dragon]

me irl

[dusky surge]

you can run, but you LITERALLY cannot hide

U5's tracking nerf is such a relief to me

[hollow canyon]

I know it might be a hard concept to grasp for people who have so much time at their hands that they don't care whether they spend 5 hours, 10 hours or 20 hours while growing their dinosaur but to everyone else - no, the diets are most certainly NOT optional.

[dusky surge]

I want to actually RUN from threats again rather than having to fight because the carno will find me through 50 miles of dense forest

[hollow canyon]

Idk what's so hard to grasp about that concept

[golden coral]

I would like everything, including combat to always be a measure of risk vs reward. It should always be a matter of "Do I need to do this, is there a safer/better way". Finding a fresh corpse would be a "great!" moment vs having to get that thing dead on your own. Finding a plant near cover should be "amazing" as opposed to going out on the plains in full visibility and thus placing yourself at risk. I want the game to reward thinking things through and judging pros and cons, as well as making decisions on when or if to continue on something or back off/down.

[dusky surge]

engage in diets for growth, then immediately drop them for adulthood

aand hes muted

[slim dragon]

Suppression Field smited him

[dusky surge]

what did he even say

[dreamy fiber]

Actually aside from your petty insult I get little time to play the Isle. I don't like the growth times either.
diets are still optional.

[mental roost]

Yeah, that would be quite nice... If they balanced it right, and not be insufferable. It's possible but... difficult.

[slim dragon]

Could be anything
I've been muted twice by suppression field for pretty much no reason

[dusky surge]

yea, i personally really like the idea of fights MEANING something, although others don't. Gives me that documentary vibes, one of my fave things to do in the Isle is simply watch the animals do their thing, and having them be more natural and not having 2 utahs rush down a stego and die would be nice

[dreamy fiber]

Ditto

[golden coral]

That as well as more reasons to fail a hunt, to back down/off, and to reconsider during hunts/fights or even other things. Hell, migration could have it's own dangers, where you might have to make a choice on if you go or not, and how far you go, and so on.

[dusky surge]

one of my most hyped things is simply becoming a human and watching the animals do their animal thing

[slim dragon]

The main problem I see with the concept of Death in The Isle is that even if you die, you can still come back as a baby utah or carno and continue the fight

[mental roost]

I am going to turn you into a pink slime monster to jumpstart the war economy.

[dusky surge]

this is true (and especially prevalent in utahs)

[slim dragon]

It ruins the very concept of survival

[golden coral]

In general, I just want more .. choice, more deliberation, more reason to constantly reconsider what you're doing and which path forward is the best for your continued survival. Since well, I want people to want to remain alive, that's the main point of a survival game to me so. But that one people seem to disagree on :p

[golden coral]

Baby utah revenge spam xD

[dreamy fiber]

Pink slime ftw
I'll be a bioweapon

[mental roost]

I feel... kind of annoyed, whenever I see a 1-5% Utah child rush in and pounce on a Stego.. and SOMEHOW keep its bleed going.

[mental roost]

Nothing personal course; Africa's just getting a bit too peaceful.

[slim dragon]

Adding respawn timers would be a solution to prevent this... but not a very good one.

[mental roost]

Oh god, yeah.. I'd avoid a respawn timer personally, as much as possible.

Imagine dying in Minecraft, losing all of your items, and being slapped with a 15-30 second respawn timer.

Even in L4D2, getting slapped with a 25-30 second respawn timer is agony

[slim dragon]

Haha have you ever played Dota 2 ?
120 seconds respawn time

[mental roost]

I refuse to play DOTA and LOL

for my own sanity; I will watch Arcane though.

[dusky surge]

my LEAST favourite survival games

[slim dragon]

Ah Arcane
100% off-topic but I'll need to watch it too someday
I'm in an art school and a lot of my teachers use it as a reference, so it'd be better to know what they're talking about

[slim dragon]

No
Your least favorite survival game is Dead by Daylight

[mental roost]

At least I guess in L4D2, when you die as a survivor, I can listen to music while waiting for the round to end(for versus mode)

[dusky surge]

my god you know me well

[mental roost]

Dead by Daylight is on sale by the way.

Seriously, why the fuck do generators have a quick time event though.

I don't know why

[dusky surge]

the ONLY good thing about DbD is the DREDGE and nothing else

[mental roost]

Nice!

[slim dragon]

Forcing players to fcosu on what they're doing instead of just being able to look around and spotting any detail, but at the same time reward good players with faster progress

[mental roost]

I guess it creates some form of paranoia.

[dreamy fiber]

Armour/hide values that weights below a certain threshold simply can't penetrate would probably obably be better. There's no world in which a juvie utah should be harming a stego

[mental roost]

I feel like Saurian has a similar mechanic, where animal skin thickness plays a role... but I haven't played the game in years now; still waiting on them to add a playable Rex.

[slim dragon]

It wouldn't really solve the issue
What about utahs coming back into a fight against a teno or a pachy ?
It's probably not big enough to negate all damage from a juvie utah

[dreamy fiber]

Juvie utah shouldn't really be hurting a teno either. Pachy? Eh. Maybe it can contribute.

Realistically you can't stop the respawn spam imo
Not unless you literally add rules and I don't think anyone wants rules in the official servers

Well nvm some people do but I don't think it'd be of any benefit and would be a total headache for the enforcers

[slim dragon]

I'm pretty sure there is a solution
But it needs to be thought about

[calm ibex]

locational spawn system! 🙂

[dreamy fiber]

Doesn't do a whole loylt gaindt those who know the map and local respawn slaready exists

[slim dragon]

Maybe if the map was much larger, with spawn points further away, it would kinda alleviate the issue
Since people would need much more time to travel back to the place they died

[dusky surge]

hot take:

i hate the locational spawn system and preferred legacy's lottery basket

[dreamy fiber]

It'd not the kind of thing you an really control cause people find ways around it. It's the sort of behaviour people like kov engage in.

I don't care if people to it on official tbh

[calm ibex]

i too hate locational spawns, it gives players wayyy too much control over their spawn

[mental roost]

Baby Utah running across the entire map, with 3 other baby utahs to rejoin the fight against one fucking Elder Stego in a field of dead Utahs that kept running into it and not planning anything.

[slim dragon]

Actually
It would be better for that specific issue, but it's good to allow players to spawn together
Although you could simply "form a squad" in the main menu and spawn together once you join a server

[golden coral]

Now with nesting, we could go back there I guess.. but then diets for juvies spawning in.. oh boy :p

[dreamy fiber]

Maybe straight up rando spawns is better but te impact it could have on friends. Spawning in ehh idk I wouldn't enjoy that

It's hard enough to find them already sometimes

[dusky surge]

i would prefer these two things

A: Party spawns (the game spawns you with your mates and automatically packs you with them, meaning the whole "spawn at SE" thing is irrelevant)
B: Nesting (you already have a mate in? Get him to make a nest so you can spawn on him. Done)

One of these is being done, I'm aware, I just kinda prefer these ideas in tandem rather than locational spawns

[slim dragon]

If we had party spawns I wouldn't mind spawns being random tbh

[golden coral]

How would you solve diets then?

[slim dragon]

Although idk why I even care I don't have friends to play The Isle with

[slim dragon]

Make it so you always spawn in a biome where you can find your diets ? It's not that hard

[calm ibex]

species specific "random" spawns, that would put correct dino in their biomes close by

[mental roost]

Best part? No auto balance feature

[dusky surge]

carno spawns in arid
deino spawns in water
teno spawns in swamps

so on, so forth, just have the animal's "main" biomes be where it can spawn

[slim dragon]

Different playables already have species-specific spawn areas

[golden coral]

Which means that depending on where you were fighting, you could still return to fight like that, unless you had more than one biome for them

[dusky surge]

more than one

[slim dragon]

And if you just died, it automatically picks a spawn far enough from where you just died :)
Also works for when you really hate the place where you spawned and want to play on the other side of the map

[calm ibex]

^that would be nice

[golden coral]

Fair. Hopefully we get that sooner rather than later!

[dusky surge]

or at all

[golden coral]

Yeah, that might help too.

[frail bobcat]

This is a cool Idea, you should suggest it

[slim dragon]

I'm pretty sure it's been suggested a few times before

[dreamy fiber]

Yeah honestly having bother would work better than what we have rn.

[formal dirge]

Just watched a stego kill 3 deinos, after 4 of them and a carno showed up and finally took it down- im sorry but it should take 5 apex predators for one herbi.

[golden coral]

It doesn't, if those deinos had known what they were doing. Also carno is not an apex.

[formal dirge]

my bad about the carni, still think its a little ridiculous how the stego can just go around killing everything unprovoked.

[golden coral]

Normally they can't. I don't know what those deinos were doing, but unless they were fighting on land, and coming one at a time at that, they should have won.

Two deinos at the water can take a solo stego if they coordinate so, not quite sure how that fight went down

[formal dirge]

the stego was camping on a little mound in the middle of the river, that probably played a big part in it.

[hasty coyote]

by center i presume?

[formal dirge]

yep

[golden coral]

Even so. One of them lunges, stuns the stego, while the other is ready to swim up and start biting/altbiting at the face. If the stego stays to swing at one of them, the other can move in to keep biting. If there's a third, just trade with that one as soon as one of the deinos are close to death, either lunge in for another stun to help the second deino, or just swim in to bite.

[hasty coyote]

that is literally the worst possible spot for the stego. all the crocs had to do was just send like 1 from each side to both go for the head. If they got low they leave, then the next 2 go for the head.

[golden coral]

I'm sorry but even if the stego stood on that little mound, and I know where you mean, it should be doable.

[formal dirge]

No clue then, all I know is that 3 deinos were real mad that day lol.

[golden coral]

Most deinos are not good at coordinating, and not good at commiting/using all their tricks.

Well, I'm not surprised Candle, most deinos are.. not the best at fighting honestly

Not always their fault, lunge is a rather op mechanic in it's own way

[formal dirge]

Agreed, they all would rather fight each other than team up. from my experience at least

[golden coral]

But it does mean they can be less useful when they have to "brawl" something, because they're not used to it, and don't really know how to go about it. That plus often times retreating instead of committing, perhaps too early at that due to screen looking worse than the damage is.

[formal dirge]

The screen display of damage can be really confusing, thought I was near death once when really had half health.

[golden coral]

Yeah, it's strange :p

[hasty coyote]

once you fight for a while, it starts to become instinctual to know about how much hp you have left. But crocs generally dont fight much because stegos are scary and it takes 5 hours to grow.

[formal dirge]

Yep, stegos are terrifying.

[wooden bramble]

if only it landed half the time

[golden coral]

Well yes.. but that is an entirely different issue :p

[wooden bramble]

true

[azure crescent]

those deinos have never heard the deep secret that they can just avoid death by swimming away

[eager ledge]

They really got to fix it at some point to make it less confusing

[formal dirge]

@azure crescent only a few deinos know of such power

[azure crescent]

i am aware lol, most deino players are stupud

[obtuse ocean]

Maybe they learn it when spino comes

[slim dragon]

No they will cry that they die to one spino although irl deino had 9000x the biteforce of spino

[dusky surge]

still think it'd be dumb if spino could outbite deino

[slim dragon]

Not outbite it
But spino has massive claws

[dusky surge]

true. I honestly spino having really good bleed, health and damage, but pretty dogshit mobility

[slim dragon]

Seems legit

[obtuse ocean]

i mean the spino would kill a croc easy

even in water its gonna be favored

[dusky surge]

why would that be the case

doesnt really make much sense to me

[slim dragon]

Well deino is designed to drown things
You can't drown another semiaquatic

And I son't see why spino wouldn't be able to use its claws underwater

[dreamy fiber]

Mm if I were to bet on a real deino or spino, I'd say deino. Spino is a bigger animal but it's not well designed for fighting, and honestly if they head on each other the first thing a deino is gonna bite is the snout which it would reach before any claw got anywhere near it and then
You know
Spino v deino is a strange matchup

[slim dragon]

Yeah but we're talking aout The Isle

Irl spino might lose to an allo if they coexisted

[hasty coyote]

If deino is somehow faster than spino, then I’m fine with it losing. However, if it’s slower, then the fight needs to be more 50/50.

[slim dragon]

Spino being faster than deino inside of the water would be terrifying

[hasty coyote]

Balance trumps realism 10/10 times

[dreamy fiber]

On land it'd probably look a whole lot different since the head would be out of reach

And I knowz that's why I specified. I still find it weird. To think hat the Isle. May pursue spino as thew after Apex over spino when spino is considerably better adapted for land than deino

Bruh there's no way spino would be faster in the water, right? It's got a whole lot of drag and a weaker tail in comparison to its size

[dusky surge]

spino should always win on land, but deino is the closest we will get to a PURE aquatic

[dreamy fiber]

Which is why I'd think it's be weird to make spino the apex aquatic personally

Deino is just better adapted for spending almost all of its time I. The water

[somber sphinx]

I feel like deino should flee from a spino nonetheless, idk How i feel about it 1v1 apexes

[dusky surge]

i just think there should be three apex aquatics, spino, deino and cherius

[frail bobcat]

isnt the cheirus already one

[slim dragon]

But it's just not as strong nor as big
It's better adapted for staying in the water, not for killing everything it sees
Which, according to it's concept art, spino is precisely designed for

[dusky surge]

yes, deino is also one (according to devs

[slim dragon]

Will cheirus even be aquatic ?

[hasty coyote]

Might be more of a wader, but it will be around water.

[obtuse ocean]

For me it does, and the devs said it.

On land you prob gonna run or die

[dusky surge]

i mean, obviously

but in water, i don't think deino should be at a disadvantage

[dreamy fiber]

I know about the concept art. I don't think spino translates well to being an animals that "kills everything it sees" though. That's some JP3 nonsense.
The deino as an animal is actually much better suited to dealing fatal damage quickly to creatures larger than itself. It's an ambush predator, unlike spino which.. Well, it eats fish. I like the spinosaurus, its one of my favourite families of dinosaurs overall but they're just not built for taking down terrestrial animals. That's not to say it couldnt, but it wouldn't be as good as it would be at gripping fish.

As a result, which I think spino does need to be justifiably about to attack and deal damage given its apex status in the game I really don't think it should be out competing deino while in the water.

I do acknowledge it will have to be different from the real animal. Considerably different. I'm pretty sure most kids wouldn't like playing it if it was a giant fishing rod lol

[eager ledge]

If death roll was a thing the spino would have no chance

[slim dragon]

doubt

What would deathrolling even do to a spino, especially in water ?

[eager ledge]

Do twice it’s normal dmg and use stam

[slim dragon]

Seems extremely specific for something that isn't in the game yet
You probably didn't take into account the fact that spino can attack with both arms at once, dealing 2500 damage and stunning opponents

[eager ledge]

That’s how gaters and crocs take down there prey

[slim dragon]

I wasn't aware gators and crocs hunted spinos

[eager ledge]

No I’m talking about death rolling in general dude

[eager ledge]

Also if dieno were death roll spino that would be the end of the spino there fossil evidence to show they the capability to death roll there heads are designed for it

[slim dragon]

videogame moment

You're exactly the type of person I mentioned earlier
People saying deino should win against spino in the game because irl it had 1000000N of biteforce

[dusky surge]

i personally reckon it should be as simple as
deino > spino in water
spino > deino on land

[eager ledge]

I’m not even talking about it’s biteforce dude I’m talking about the move death roll in it’s self is a tactical move that is specifically designed to take down prey 3 x the size of the user

[slim dragon]

I don't think something as oppressive as deino should be uncontested in water
The only way to die as a deino would then be to willingly go on land and get yourself killed
Same survivability level as ptera

[dusky surge]

i mean, it's kinda supposed to be THE aquatic

nothing gets more aquatic in the Isle than a deino

also the moment it leaves the water, spino, giga, trike, rex, shant, anky, cherry would all collectively be able to kick its fucking ass

[slim dragon]

Spino doesn't need to be more aquatic than deino
It just needs to be stronger and just aquatic enough to tell it to fuck off

[dusky surge]

deino is a very niche apex. It should be an apex of its very specific and niche little environment, and the moment it strays, it gets fucking farmed

[slim dragon]

It all boils down to the rule of fight or flight

Spino will probably not be faster than deino in the water, because it would look absolutely stupid

But it's still a semi-aquatic, meaning it will need to spend some part of its life in the water

But if it cannot get away from Deino AND cannot defeat it in a fight, how will a spino ever be able to reach adulthood ?

[dreamy fiber]

The Frank video game approach is thst because deino is so niche it should be the best at that niche, without any real questions.

And
Well
Spino should just leave the water

[slim dragon]

Or simply continue on living once adult, after that exhilarating 8-hour growth during which you MUST NOT come close to your envirnomnent of predilection, in case there is a deino there ?

[dusky surge]

i mean, i doubt deino is outrunning/enduring spino on land lmao

[dreamy fiber]

It's not like the rivers in evrima are massive

[slim dragon]

Deino's niche is oppressing the terrestrials by ambushing them in the water
It's not a water brawler

[slim dragon]

Doesn't change the fact that it forbids spino from going into water

[dusky surge]

does it??

[dreamy fiber]

No it's niche is being the most aquatic animal. Spino will also be ambushing.

[dusky surge]

i honestly dont know how to feel about "ambush spino"

nothing about that animal EVER struck me as an ambush predator

[dreamy fiber]

It's definitely not an ambush predator lol

[dusky surge]

its always to me been a big and proud giant that kicks the shit out of anything that enters its space

[slim dragon]

Everytime you go into water, you encounter the risk of encountering a creature that you cannot fight, njor run from

[slim dragon]

Ambushing fishes yes

[dreamy fiber]

But it kind of rounds back on the thing I said before that kids don't want to play a big fishing rod

[slim dragon]

Spino is a fisher
In order to fish, it goes into water
If anything stands between spino and its prey, said thing gets spino'ed

That's how I see it

[dusky surge]

you could make it a big fishing rod and still make it interesting

[dreamy fiber]

Debatable. Ambushing fish seems well within its ability but there have been suggestions thst it was capable of being a pursuit predator
Granted I don't think it'd be a fast one

[dusky surge]

it eats fish, fucks around, vibes, and if anyone enters its space, it fucking destroys them

[slim dragon]

That's not what I mean
If spino is ever gonna ambush anything, it's gonna ambush fishes and nothing else

[dreamy fiber]

I would love to play deino like a fishing rod. I like it being essentially not a significant contest for terrestrials, but something to still be wary of due to size.

[dusky surge]

deino?

[dreamy fiber]

The concept art suggests otherwise
Though it is ambushing beipi lol
So it might be capable of ambushing small animals.

Sorry I mean spink

I'm not very procifient on my phone

[slim dragon]

The image looks like a spino was trying to sleep and beipis decided to fuck around
Only to find out

[dreamy fiber]

.. Spino needs to breathe
It can't sleep in the water lol

[slim dragon]

Doesn't look that deep
Either way, whatever the concept art says or shows, spino is never gonna ambush efficiently unless they literally give it ambush speed or remodel it
Cuz you know, long legs and huge sail on the back...

[dreamy fiber]

Lao litwely none of the concept art deal with sleep so far. The concept art is supposed to be a going the way they imagine the animal working in game
Literally everything cn sleep

So in essence it then shows nothing..

[slim dragon]

Yes, concept art is concept art
Not gameplay showcase

[dreamy fiber]

I think they've also talked about it ambushing but someone would need to back me up with evidence. On that one

[slim dragon]

People always over-interpret them

[dreamy fiber]

I think they're pretty blatant imo
Still it's gonna be strong although I wish it wasn't really
Not compared to other apexes
Idk that's just my preference and I'd play it a lot that way
But a lot of folks would e pretty upset to spend ages on sonething that's best at catching ai fish keke

[slim dragon]

Especially considering there's already a lot of fish-catchers that would take considerably less time to grow

[dreamy fiber]

Eh its not really that don't think. Being the largest and apex piscivore is its own niche in its own right
But communities just generally aren't okay with the idea of what spinos actually are. They're cool. And unique so people wanna see them, but because they're so big people feel they should match things it shouldnt in fighting.
Though personally I think it should be tanky, but only in the sense that its given leeway to escape if it can't scare someone off

The most fun I had with one thing like it was in eot
Because the spino did function that way, but. There were. Noai fish so LOL
but essentially out competent juvenile terrestrials for the foi that was available, but didn't. Really wanna fight as it grew
Kind thing. It felt unique, nothing was Really like it and I haven't played much like it Since

And then people cried about it Being weak so now it's just a broken with with another Op spino.

[slim dragon]

I wouldn't mind irl spino
But devs decided to turn it into a kaiju, then let it act like a kaiju

[dreamy fiber]

Yeah tru that

[azure crescent]

wtf lol why people reacted with clown emoji to my suggestion

[tranquil pawn]

[silk harness]

I can't speak for the clowners but your concept basically just sounds like a slow Utah

[tranquil pawn]

@dense hamlet what do you mean? anything with a leg fracture is easily outrun and pretty hopeless honestly.

[hasty coyote]

the one exception to this is carno v pachy, thats the only one I currently have an issue with and is likely what they are talking about. Broke legs? well it is about the same speed, can track, has about as much stam as you, and regen stam quicker. Broke ribs? well it can still run you down and regen its stam quickly. Broke its skull? well that doesnt matter, it just takes more bites for you to die.

[tranquil pawn]

ok carno v pachy match up fair enough, carno with leg fracture got speed lol

[hasty coyote]

but man, i only saw a little bit of the new pachy buff, they look amazing and should help a LOT. better stam and turning should make fighting and running much easier, but worse headbutt damage to compensate for the more rams you get.

[tranquil pawn]

[eager ledge]

I find that strange also I don’t know why I have no idea if trolling you or joking

[thin mantle]

Wait seriously?! That’s fantastic! We finally won

[dusky surge]

kinda sad about the turn buff, i'd rather see other things buffed, the turn nerf for standing up was kinda cool

[thin mantle]

What other things buffed?

What would alternatively be buffed on Pachy to make it function better

[half girder]

pachy functions perfectly now

well, in the ST

[thin mantle]

Functions as intended as according to its purpose in the game and ecosystem, and completely lacks interactions where it isn’t viable

And is difficult to exploit via arbitrary limitations as well

[half girder]

thats no time soon dude

enjoy bonker while its super fun, which it will be in up5

[thin mantle]

Very excited indeed

[half girder]

idc what happens in the future, ill still play bonker

#pachymain

though im overly excited for allo

[dusky surge]

i still want troo above all atm

[half girder]

ah yes that dino..

mostly want cera cuz we dont need smalls atm but

[dusky surge]

cera is still kinda small tbh

probably going to be smaller than carno

i like cera, but im still more interested in troo

[somber sphinx]

Im really exited for both magy and herrera

[frail bobcat]

Im excited for herrera, it will be an interesting playstyle

[dusky surge]

herrera seems cool

[somber sphinx]

Lepard niche cant wait to snatch babies and Climb up a tree

[azure crescent]

it's more focused on raw damage

[half girder]

herrera will be so buggy i cant wait to stress test it

[somber sphinx]

Herrera wil clearly work and not break

[dusky surge]

@wispy kite utah has buck

[frail bobcat]

I think he means when a utah pinned another one

[slim dragon]

Utahs bucks when it's being pinned

[cloud urchin]

@cosmic fox Rex and Spino will be fine against Stego. The former can 3 three tap Stego on head shots and blind it with skull fractures. The latter can wrestle it into the ground.

[dusky surge]

@cloud urchin bleed stats are directly tied to damage, unless in the case of raptor's pounce

[wispy kite]

Exactly. You are dead if another Utah pounces you.

[dusky surge]

@true sandal legacy isle moment

[slim dragon]

@celest copper An infection mechanic that would only take place some time after being hurt would add nothing to gameplay. It would just punish people for winning a fight.
Also, the way you described it, it sounds like it would heavily favor carnivores.

[celest copper]

The fight is never over. You can win the fight and then be engaging another dinosaur after it.

Unless your thinking of the old arcade games

[slim dragon]

No because we already have locked health

[celest copper]

Of course were going to have locked health. Is that to hard already?

[dusky surge]

no, we already HAVE locked health

like, we already have it in the game, at the moment

[celest copper]

I never mentioned locking health

[slim dragon]

Also it means that a stego, which can't run away and is forced to fight every time a carni tries to eat it, it will eventually die from infection, even if it never went under 90% health

Locked health is good enough as an infection mechanic already
Some people already find it too punishing

[celest copper]

Are you only worried about the stego? it's a survival game try to survive like the other dinos

The stego is already a luxury to play with no worries

[slim dragon]

What's your point there ? I'm worried about every defensive playable in the game

[golden coral]

Would this mechanic be RNG, or guaranteed infection? Is there any way to heal it aside from time? Are the effects always serious, or is there some sort of "progression" of it?

[dusky surge]

also infection should be as impactful with herbivores as carnivores, carnivores should have no special treatment. Thagomizers and claws can easily infect just as easily as jaws

Carnivores should be AS worried about infection as a herbivore

[slim dragon]

And I think a stego bite could be quite infectious too btw...

[golden coral]

Even bites are liable to draw some kind of blood, or a pachy ram, I think at least? And then we have internal damage at that if that's ever a thing..

[celest copper]

That is my point "defensive playable" at this moment, the "defensive playable" is more like the hunter and killer for sports

[golden coral]

In any case, is it supposed to be RNG for every bite, or a guarantee from a bite, or a certain amount of bites, like fracture?

[celest copper]

I also mentioned that herbivores that cause bleed have a chance at causing an infection

[slim dragon]

So you suggest an infection mechanic in order to prevent stego players from enjoying the game ?

[dusky surge]

which should be as likely as a carnivore causing infection

if carnivores cause infection, so should herbivores at an equal rate

it makes zero realistic sense for this not to be the case

[celest copper]

The infection mechanic cannot be abused, for the reason that you would have to damage that dinosaur until it has lost a certain amount of health or given a certain amount of bleed

[hasty coyote]

Finally, salvation

[slim dragon]

No eat grass and die

[slim dragon]

You're describing locked health

But you want add even more effects on top of it

[hasty coyote]

So, bite, run away, then just come back when it’s weak.

[celest copper]

It's not enjoying the game when everyone else is suffering, (stego players kill each other and other herbies). I could tell you were a stego main when you reacted to my idea

[golden coral]

You both A, said it only works on bleed, and B; that herbis would be weaker due to "less usage" of their weapon? Sounds like it's meant to only favour carnis there

So, how badly do you have to wound the target to give them infection then?

[celest copper]

Herbivores don't sink the weapons they use in blood as often as carnivores

[golden coral]

Where would you put the limit?

[celest copper]

It's no locking anything it is a temporary de-buff

[dusky surge]

yes they do. Their goal is to make the carnivore leave through any means possible, they're outright violent. Just LOOK at a stego's tail and tell me that isn't going to draw blood

[golden coral]

Also having infection affect everything is.. just way too harsh anyway, that'd just make it the go to method of killing in every encounter I'm pretty sure

[celest copper]

Read my comment above yours

[slim dragon]

Ofc
And I can tell you're a 43 years-old basement-dweller who bathes once in a year and has a rotten teeth on the back of your mouth from the way you write

[unborn iris]

...

[celest copper]

No they don't they don't sink their beaks into the bodies of who ever they kill; I also said they have a chance to cause an infection, Carnivores consume the bacteria infested meat, and their bodies know how to counter the sickness that dino may hold

[golden coral]

You do realize stegos can't "hunt" anything anyway, unless said something lets them. So they're not the problem here, but carnos, and utahs with their pounce. Imagine that, just pounce enough to stack infection, and there you go, wait and now it just dies to due all the debuffs. Same for anything else that does bleed, or enough damage if that counts too.

[dusky surge]

that's AFTER the animal is dead. Tenos are slashing with claws and stegos are impaling things on their tails, those are GOING to cause infection

i'd say a stego tail is WAY more likely to cause infection than a carno bite

[hasty coyote]

I literally explained why it wouldn’t work. Depending on how much damage you make it, it either punished people for defend themselves, or allows carnis to just bite a little and wait for the infection to continue.

[golden coral]

Considering the carno washes his mouth every time he drinks, while a stego does not wash the thagomizer unless it goes swimming.. :p

[celest copper]

According to teno players, carno players, pachy players, etc. That's false

[golden coral]

Then quite frankly, all of those players are terrible and should never play a game like this. Stego can not run any of them down, nor "ambush" them. Just.. look at stats..

[dusky surge]

did you know about a secret counterplay tech I've discovered against salty KOS stego players? It's called running away because their stam and speed are awful

[celest copper]

Yes it does, it punishes the player for engaging the enemy, this will solve a pack defense

[golden coral]

You're telling me a teno, or pachy, or a carno, somehow gets "hunted" by a stego... that's like being hunted by a deino on land, which just.. does not happen unless you run up to them and let them get within range.

[hasty coyote]

You do realize stego is just, slower. The main issue with stegos body camping is that our current roster can’t deal with them.

[celest copper]

That may be true, but you don't need skill to play a stego.

[celest copper]

If that is true then they wouldn't be on any of their diets

[golden coral]

You do, at least as much as carno and deino and some of the others. Honestly, only teno is really demanding, but that has no relation to if a stego can hunt something.

And body guarding only counts for carnis, so somehow tenos and pachies still die to stegos?..

[hasty coyote]

So, if I play a herbivore, which are slower than carnivores, and get attacked by said carnivores, I should be punished for defending myself?

But carnivores are fine to just run off whenever they want with no problem

[celest copper]

A stego player weighs 2tons less than a deino and doubles it's attack

[golden coral]

Which has absolutely no relevance to any of my points.

[celest copper]

A stego player can kill a carno in 2 hits

[golden coral]

And a deino can oneshot a carno.. and actually "sneak" up on it better at that :p

Not that any of this has any relevance to how a deino or stego "hunts" something on land, or if your idea for infection is good anyway. You just want to prevent any defensive playable from well, being able to defend themselves it seems. As well as what, not let herds/packs utilize their numbers for defense, or whatever that earlier comment was about..

[hasty coyote]

Have you heard of babies and a limited roster? Stego is the 2nd worst thing utahs can hunt, and deinos are not good at fighting other apexes.

[celest copper]

You don't understand, as a carno you can be killed by anything on land or in the water. As a stego, you rarely have to worry about a "good Utah" pack and nothing else

[golden coral]

As a carno, you only die if you put yourself in harms way, and you have the best ability out of all playables to just get out if you need to, since you are the fastest thing around. Even utahs need to take some environment into account if they want to use rocks to hide on.

[celest copper]

They do a lot of damage, and have very intimidating weapons. Realistically

[celest copper]

That's their job, to eat

[golden coral]

Meanwhile, a stego can literally not get out of a fight, except against another stego or deino. And deino at that has way better ability to avoid a fight than stego. So you know.. deino is by far the superior survival wise compared to stego if you want to compare who is at risk of death or not.

[golden coral]

Yes, and you can of course choose your targets... carnos don't even eat stegos anyway so no reason to ever interact with them :p

[celest copper]

That's the stegos fault for not being cautious, like the other dinos

[hasty coyote]

Stego can’t just run you down and can’t run from anything. The general balance of this game is “Can’t fight? Run. Can’t run? Fight” stego doesn’t have the option to run from anything so it must be able to fight them, but carno always has the option of running since it’s the fastest Dino in the game.

[golden coral]

Ah yes, deino and stego should be cautious vs a roster that should not mess with either of them.. :p

[celest copper]

I'm not opposing stegos. I'm trying to make the game more immersive
But you immediately when to the stegos defense, while they wouldn't need defense if something wasn't already wrong with them.

[golden coral]

Though I guess it would be interesting to see deinos come on land, get bled by some utahs and then die of infection

[hasty coyote]

Balance>realism every time

[celest copper]

The deino is known to be in one place, the water.

[golden coral]

And I guess it would stop them from messing with stegos since stego does decent bleed I think

[golden coral]

You've clearly never seen deinos come on land and mess about, but believe me, they do if there's no stego around.

[hasty coyote]

Yeah I play on an unofficial server where mixpacking is common, when the crocs don’t fear stegs, nothing stops them.

[celest copper]

And what is balance to you. To live as a herbivore with no stress and to oppress the carnivore species, with little to no consequence? Not to mention the mixing of species; which of course a pack of Utahs and Carnos teaming up with each other is already not realistic, or balanced is it?

[celest copper]

Yeah, I have, I've seen them come one land to mixpack with herbivores. Never carnivores though, I also witnessed an adult deino escape cannibals of it's species by running across land

The only reason a deino will ever go on land is to rest (safelog), die, mixpack. Or because no one is around to hurt them; but they usually stay on land to die, so cannibals do not eat their corpse

[golden coral]

I've seen all of those. And just more than two adult deinos going on land to mess with everyone else, that happens too.

[hasty coyote]

My definition of balance is for most situations (unless you are vastly outnumbered) you have the ability to either run or fight any playable. Stego has nothing it can run from, so it must fight. Carno and utah can always run, so they have the disadvantage in a fight. Pachy is an interesting middle ground of this: it can’t run from carno, but it can Fight until it gets a break, then it’s able to Run.

Mixpacking is another separate issue that needs to be addressed.

Our issue is that none of the playables we have can effectively kill stegos and crocs, they basically only have each other. So when you have nothing to do, you start trying to pick fights. Nesting should help this a bit too, it gives stegs something else to do other than killing

[celest copper]

That must be what they do so that they can die. Like I said

[celest copper]

Hense the reason why I said "if the herbivore an cause bleed" it has a chance at causing infection

Mixpacking is another issue. There is already a mechanic in order, to fix that

[golden coral]

But there was nothing there to kill them, two adults, + some subs, vs a bunch of carnos, utahs, and a teno or two. They were at no risk of dying at all, they just took corpses, and chased the others around as much as deinos can chase (and because the utahs and carnos kept trying to harass them).

[celest copper]

Not correct about the stego to be the last to worry about

[hasty coyote]

So pachies are screwed? Anky is screwed? Anything that relies on bone break and can’t run is just punished by the system for being forced to fight things.

[celest copper]

Anky, will probably be immune to infection, to certain carnivores. Only a large carnivore like the Deino or T-rex can cause infection

Because they are armored

[hasty coyote]

You mean fishing for crocs? You do realize crocs can just… swim away. And 2 coordinated crocs can kill a stego.

[golden coral]

I don't think deino would go for an anky, rex, sure. But yeah, so the anky is screwed then. Even if it breaks the leg of a rex, it just.. gets infected and then what?

[hasty coyote]

What about pachy? It gets punished for being attacked by a carno and surviving?

[golden coral]

Or a utah, considering the utah bleed on a successful pounce :p

[celest copper]

You do know how mindless that sounds? Your currently whining because your stego, will have to worry about engaging a carnivore. That it will have to actually worry about other carnivores the enemy. That it won't be able to "fish for deinos" anymore. The fact that the action has a reference to an activity like a sport is bad in itself.

[celest copper]

It's called survival. It's not an arcade game, try playing as at least a utah.

[hasty coyote]

The system just punishes people who are just playing the game. There are different ways to stop stegos. Loot at tenos, they don’t normally body camp unless they are in a herd. And that’s because they can be threatened by predators. Stego’s issue is that we have no predators currently.

[unborn iris]

So basically you are just looking for a way to kill stegos?

[celest copper]

A pounce is a risky move, if you ever played utah

[celest copper]

If your considering, playing as a herbivore and hunting carnivores and engaging them for fun playing the game then why don't you play as something that is meant to do that like a carnivore. Because it's "to hard"

[celest copper]

You just got here, Let me explain again. I am not attempting to oppress stegos, I am trying to make the game more immersive, and the fact that you immediately go to the stegos defense. Shows me how much the stego needs a nerf; but I'm not asking for a nerf. I'm asking for a mechanic

[unborn iris]

I only said anything about stegos because you've mentioned them specifically pretty much every comment.

[celest copper]

As a response to a comment to me, again I am not trying to oppress the stegosaurus

[golden coral]

I have, I don't consider it that risky to be honest, but that's just me. In any case, my point was more so, if you get one off, and then die, the pachy is now infected and kind of.. well, in a bad spot, despite winning the fight and even killing the opponent. Because.. you just want herbis to suffer?..

[celest copper]

You do understand that every time I have mentioned stego. That it was becasue I was responding to people defending the dino?

[celest copper]

Then you haven't played it recently

[golden coral]

You do realize there will be other things than just stegos as well? Both for carnis and herbis. We're concerned with the entire mechanic, no matter stegos or not.

[hasty coyote]

No. I am literally arguing balance of this game and giving reasons. You’re the one resulting to insults to win. But I do agree, stego needs a predator and something to threaten it. But our current roster is not well suited to deal with them. It’s like telling bary and beipi to cull deino populations, they just can’t. Lastly, fishing for deinos is bad, but that is again a result of stegos having no predators, we have people controlling these dinos, and combat is the only thing to do. Literally every creature that can fight often pick fights. People want to do something fun, and fighting is all we have, so people start fights.

[celest copper]

I do realise that; can we stop talking about stegos and more about the mechanic, because you guys are obsessing over the stego. Why?

[unborn iris]

I think that's the whole point. The mechanic seems pretty targetted towards stegos. Everything else is dealt with pretty easily and this just makes it worse for everything else while giving some kind of counter to stegos.

[celest copper]

How?

[hasty coyote]

I play pachy, so I understand what problems utahs face. Utahs are mainly suffering from a bugged pounce, which needs to be fixed as a top priority.

[golden coral]

I have. But anyway, your mechanic is bad because it can be abused by just stacking enough to cause infection, and then that critter can no longer defend itself, be it carni or herbi. It's also "favoured" to carni for no good game reason, and on top of that, the infection as you describe it has no counter except time, and basically shits on every single stat, making you unable to do anything.

You can have a utah stack bleed on a teno, then let it's two packmates wait until infection and now the teno is absolutely dead in the water. Or they can do the same to a carno. And so on.

[celest copper]

Dude the utah and pachy may seem similar but a one on one between both, the pachy will win unless you have a cracked Utah player and I mean there is no latency, not hiccups, and the utahs pounce is fixed
But you are right the bug is terrible

[golden coral]

The point here is, not only does your suggestion completely shit on the playable, affecting everything (which is a terrible idea in the first place for any mechanic I'd say), but it also lacks any proper counter, because you can just.. stack enough bleed and you will get it, even if the defender get kills.

[hasty coyote]

A: herbivores are aggressive too
B: carnivores are faster than herbivores, so it’s not like they have a choice to fight since they can’t run.

[golden coral]

Also pachy has bug issues, not as bad as utah pounce, but they're there :p

The issues are specific more so to the defender, be it a carni or herbi, and the easy of which the attacker can stack enough bleed and then let the infection "kill" by basically removing any ability to fight back from the defender?

[celest copper]

They are not agressive. They might be agressive for food, teritory (which doesn't exist yet) and defending their young. Never should they be looking for a fight

[celest copper]

But carnivores have much less stamina

[hasty coyote]

In a 1v1 fight? Yeah, but both their abilities bug out. Desync makes pachy rams hit on your side and drain the extra stam, but not for the server so you don’t deal the damage. Also, a single pounce can deal like half of pachy’s bleed even if it bucks.

[calm ibex]

time to post the countless gifs about herbi agression and get muted for animal in duress

[hasty coyote]

They don’t though, utah has much more stam than pachy, and is slightly faster. And none of them will survive the onslaught that the carnis will do as they catch up while you just run. You will die before the carni runs out of stam.

[golden coral]

Anyway. Focus on the mechanic then, and I've given you reasons why it's not a good idea. It's way OP in what it effects, unless all of those effects are tiny which would make it more of a bother than anything else. And it needs to A; be counterable, by wallow or you know, something, salt rocks maybe. (which in turn would congreate players near them so.. there's an issue there), and B; need to not be random, and should be applied to all playables, so no one goes looking for a fight, but rather a quick, efficient kill if anything.

[celest copper]

I thought the stamina drain was intentional. I would only think that it made sense. Also the utah hasn't landed a successful pounce on me yet, one time they did and they were killed in a couple of hits after getting off. Because their dismantle is stupid slow lol

[celest copper]

I mean, it is called survival though

[hasty coyote]

These are also people controlling the dinos, they won’t act like a cow and do nothing when you just walk up to a herd.

[golden coral]

Now imagine if you had your infection mechanic. You'd now be infected and most likely die to all those effects, despite the fact that you got hunted and survived the hunt.

[celest copper]

I don't like any of the carnivores. But at the moment it is extremely boring to play as a herbivore, just running around soloing a pack of utahs an a couple of carnos. I haven't even play stego because I already know about them

[golden coral]

You could always play dryo, lots of running, less soloing stuff on that one :p

[hasty coyote]

It’s called balance too. If you make the carnis stronger than the herbivores in every way, then you will only see carnivores. Then we get an ecosystem like ark💀

[celest copper]

The infection mechanic will be abuse proof. You cannot abuse the mechanic because depending on the dino, you need to cause a certain amount of bleed and damage, and a certain amount of damage for other dinos

[celest copper]

This won't make them stronger. It will make the game more fun, just like the animal documentaries, where you see the hundreds of deer running from a pack of 6 wolves

[golden coral]

Okay, and how do you decide what's a good amount then? Why does a dino get a certain value, is it based on health, or something else? And no, it won't be abuse proof, trust you me, someone will find some way to abuse it. The sheer fact that you can just inflict that amount you designed, and then let the infection kill for you in the fight is already questionable..

[hasty coyote]

It is intentional. When you hit a ram, your stam goes down more than a miss. However, desync makes you lose the stam for “hitting” the ram, but not deal the damage. And again, I know utah pounce is broken. But that doesn’t mean we should buff them.

[celest copper]

A good amount is a good amount. depending on the dino they would need to get their prey down to 2/4 and 3/4 depending on the prey. An amount that will force you to dedicate your hunt to who ever you are engaging

[hasty coyote]

Except people don’t act like deer. People would turn around and fight those wolves rather than running.

[hasty coyote]

It still punishes herbivores for just trying to defend themselves. 1-2 carno bites would infect a pachy, which is the amount you normally take in a fight. Or just a single utah pounce, which should normally happen if it wasn’t broken currently.

[celest copper]

Yeah, that is what this mechanic is for. At the moment it is have your fun without any consequences. The infection mechanic will do something to prevent that type of situation. If you successfully win the fight. You get the chance of being infected depending if you were hurt bad, or if you have much bleed. After recovery, you might be able to get a perk or something like that

[golden coral]

So just some number that fits then. I guess that could work, but the effects are still way overdone, you need to choose something you think fits, not everything. Otherwise it clashes with other mechanics, and then you need to sort that out. Though I'd say it should only come into effects if the target is at 10% or less, as a "punishment" for not trying to avoid getting that low in the first place. But it should apply to both carnis and herbis, and should really be applied to all attacks, low health means you are wounded, "bleeding" or not.

[golden coral]

Won't it just lead to carnos and utahs and stuff, and pachies and tenos and so on running from everything bigger since they'll get inficted far more likely than the bigger things due to damage/bleed?

[celest copper]

Yeah; but, I've said this many time before, that it is a survival game. Right now herbivores are hunting carnivores "fishing" for deinos, smacking utahs and other carnivores around like a herbivore simulator (goat simulator) reference

[golden coral]

So at best you'd just empower the bigger stuff and making the smaller ones likely to avoid them even more.

[celest copper]

Sure levels on infection, but they will all need to be consequential. Something to prevent people for hunting carnivores and themselves for fun.

[golden coral]

If you added this, carnos would shit even more on utahs due to their bleed, and possibly infect the entire pack before one of them goes down. Meanwhile none of them would go near deino or stego due to guaranteed death or infection if they survive the hit. And tenos would probably be the go to hunters due to their claws and kicks doing very good bleed, while having the slam and swim for evasive purposes.

You'd have people deliberately charge things, only to inflict enough bleed to infect them, not even bothering to finish them off, for the sake of trolling and leaving them vunerable forever after, so even a dryo can clean it up :p

Deinos could just grab you, put you in the river, then bite you and let you escape, just to see you suffer :p

[hasty coyote]

I still disagree because all it does is penalize people for defending themselves. Locked health is enough, it stops you from wanting to fight for a while and makes you weaker to a surprise attack. And if you want to do this to stop stegos from trying to attack everything, it wont. Stego just has nothing to challenge it.

[celest copper]

Yeah, until they fix the utahs bleed

[golden coral]

There is nothing wrong with utahs bleed, and that wouldn't change the outcome anyway. Carno can live long enough to hit the utahs with enough bleed before it goes down.

Except now it doesn't need to kill them, it can just infect more of them and then leave them incapable of doing anything and if something else shows up, they all die :p

[celest copper]

I'm not looking to make the game easier for carnivores, I'm looking to make it more immersive. The list of de-buffs are a list to pick from for certian infections

[golden coral]

You mentioned everything, not as a selection, so.. then suggest a specific infection and what it'd do then I guess.

[hasty coyote]

Survival doesn’t mean “carnivores always win” and the herbivores are not bullying the carnivores. It is literally just stego. Teno is fairly balanced, and pachy is being harmed a lot by the tracking system. Utah is just suffering from pounce being Russian roulette. Then carno has no problems and everything else’s problems are helping it.

[celest copper]

At the moment the utahs bleed is dealt the same way the carnos bleed imput works

[golden coral]

The bite, yes. The pounce, no.

And there's nothing to fix there?

It works as intended from what I know

[celest copper]

Right now it's vice versa.

[hasty coyote]

Pounce does SO much bleed.

[celest copper]

When was the last time you played utah, to make this miscalculated estimation?

[golden coral]

I know how the mechanic works? It's been explained that the pounce has it's own bleed mechanic it does way more bleed compared to damage. There's a different operation there as opposed to every other normal attack.

[hasty coyote]

It’s not and I literally explained why. Give me other reasons why herbies are bullying, other than stego. Stego is it’s own issue

[golden coral]

@celest copperBleed is tied to damage inflicted, this is why carnos do a lot of bleed and even deinos do a surprising amount. Utah pounce is the exception, and works differently, since it does very little damage but massive bleed.

So when you say "utahs bleed is dealt the same way carno bleed is", then that is true for both their bites. But not for utah pounce.

[hasty coyote]

Utah pounce can 2-shot carnos without buck and a single pounce can drain pachy to half bleed WITH buck.

[celest copper]

Maybe on paper, but in game it doesn't match up

[golden coral]

It does.

Pounce does massive bleed if you can get a full one off, and in some cases, like pachy, it does severe bleed even with buck.

[celest copper]

brb I have to do something rq

[hasty coyote]

I still want this answered too.

[dreamy fiber]

The general idea of infection and illness occurring is something I'd like to be expanded upon, since the food illness is honestly just not really very cool though it does serve its purpose, but not in the way proposed.

[hasty coyote]

yeah sickness can be a thing, but it shouldnt be used as a way to punish people for fighting/mixpacking/megapacking. It should be more of an environmental hazard, not another mechanic people can abuse.

[dreamy fiber]

I don't mind it being tied to fights. I don't even mind it being tied to body guarding. But infections from fights or guarding should take a long time to set in so that it isn't an abusable fight mechanic. There's no really good reason herbivores dealing bleed should have less of a chance than carnivores to cause an infection. It's an infection. Any open wound can get infection and no part of any of the animals would be totally clean.

I would actually prefer them being tied to fighting over just random wild rng or just something that is a "gotcha" to new players like funny wild plant you can eat but o no it makes you sick haha. Typing it to fights would discourage fights somewhat and people should be more careful about how they approach combat. And tying to to body guarding would discourage body guarding, just like eating sickness discourages over-eating so other can't get at the carcass.

None of them should be like, game-ending though and more wider spread illnesses also mean you'd need more provision in-game for dealing with illnesses for the players.

[hasty coyote]

anti-body-guarding is a no, just no. What happens if you make a nest, and some little rat baby utah raptor runs up and you kill it. Now you have to deal with debuffs since you cant move away from the body. Or imagine hiding on a rock from some utahs as a pachy. one jumps up and you kill it, but now you get debuffs as the rest wait. Or again you're hiding on a rock from some carno. then they just kill something and drag bodies over to you. Theres a lot of ways it can be abused

And by environmental, i had different ideas in mind. Maybe theres certain pools of stagnant water that can give you a little bit of safe water, but make you sick. Or with gore, certain body parts are toxic, like wherever hypsi stores its bile. Or sitting out in the rain and not getting shelter can give you a very mild and temporary debuff (prob like worse smelling or slightly slower stam regen, nothing major).

[dreamy fiber]

To the first bit, not really. There are ways around that, like making a buffer around nests, and just generally having a massive timer before it sets in. There's no reason someone should linger around a body for 15-20 minutes other than nesting or, perhaps, it can also have a timer that does count if you're considered to be in active combat.

And no. Environmental hazards like stagnant water are just a trick to new players and punish them for exploring. It doesn't really serve a good function towards fixing a problem in the game. On top of that, it's a bit of a waste of time since once everyone know about it, no one will fall for it. It's a haha funni prank that no one will like.

gore being toxic is very similar to the above so also a big no for me tbh

but rain would be cool. It'd mean there's more reason to take cover in the forests and know where the caves are.

[thin mantle]

A problem with this is that I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone hairs a body for 15-20 minutes, if the intent is to reduce the frequency of bodygaurding I sincerely doubt this will have an effect, and even then the dino can leave and come back to the body to reset their timer. Seems like a better option as a Carni to plan your hunts around the local threats, don’t attack targets that are near forces you can’t fight off. And even then going away and waiting for 5 minutes is also an option unless the herbi is camping the location

[dreamy fiber]

A big problem with corpse guarding is not that people don't plan their threats (though some people definitely don't) but that things like stego will move to guard the body of the thing that wasn't connected to them. On top of that, it is a problem if carnis can't effectively attack herds since the herds will just grow and thats the kind of thing that encouraged mixpacking, because it's so effective.

but this is a solution to the worst of the problem, not the people that just run to the body, take a swing and walk away. There's nothing that you can do tehre and honestly they're not a problem. If you get caught, its your own fault.

on top of that, you can't assume that they can just walk away and come back because that entirely depends on the way it's implemented.

e.g. you can have a pause in the timer where they need to be away froa certain amount of time before it's wiped. Even if they decide to go back, it would give people a chance to eat.

On top of that I don't imagine it is a permenant all-given solution to the problem, simply a discouragement. Foodsickness, for example, does not stop you over eating

you can still choose to do so

and I think anything implemented should follow that example

[thin mantle]

Well I’d assume that someone following a herbivore while carrying a body wouldn’t incur debuffs, that’d be how to exploit that during a hunt. And at a certain size it’d become ineffective, like if a Utah followed a stego carrying a chicken corpse, or a Carno following a stego carrying a Dryo corpse, it’d have no effect as to prevent it being a mechanic used for hunting.
That’s be absolutely necessary.

[dreamy fiber]

that would be fair that carrying doesn't rresult in it. but yes, thats also to do with the way it's implemented.

Any exploits like that would have to be carefully considered and accounted for

[thin mantle]

Then I’m fine with it

[dreamy fiber]

But honestly if anyone wants a perfect solution it doesn't exist 🤷

[thin mantle]

Relatively, would still need to think on it more

[dreamy fiber]

yes, i'd agree. It'd need a lot of thought and discussion

[hasty coyote]

Yeah the ways around it basically just negate the mechanic and dont make it prevent body guarding, but still impactful in niche situations that were unintended.

The environmental hazards like stagnant water could have both a benefit and a drawback. You know theres no crocs, so the water is safe, but you risk being weaker in a fight. Or like a suggestion fluff made, specific plants give you a LOT of diet, but also poison you. Then you have to go find the way to cure it, which can be salt rocks or another type of plant.

I can understand toxic gore not being prevalent, but it leaves certain scraps that the iron belly scavengers can eat, like cera.

[thin mantle]

I need my curable poisonous dietary plants damnit!!

[dreamy fiber]

As long as it's not just a way to catch people out, mainly because I think any form sickness should be discouraging a behaviour not intended by the devs. It's a negative thing to happen to you, so it's more natural for people to assume they've done something wrong if they get a debuff.

But if it acts as a two-way street it could be interesting. It might be difficult for the benefit to be communicated in some situations, or become confusing (things like stagnant water would need to be easy to read that something was wrong with it, but crocs not being there isn't an obvious benefit so it'd just look like a punishment unless you already knew they couldn't be there, for example.)

I think toxic plants would be more readable overall since you can see that you get more. Though, you should probably also get a readable warning on scent or something.

[hasty coyote]

its a pretty interesting suggestion, probably would not fit for every herbivore, but should help limit stuff like apexes

[hasty coyote]

Yeah i dont want sickness to just be "haha gotcha, look at who didnt know about it" and more of a mechanic that allows for other certain things. Like scavengers being able to find scraps, risk vs reward, and even just defense. like a type of poisonous bush that certain tiny dinos can run into for safety, but bigger smalls and medium sized would be poisoned and large and apexes are not affected.

[thin mantle]

Oh obviously, the only criteria for herbis I’d want to have similar mechanics are herbis I don’t think should be leaving their biome much if at all, most of the apex herbi’s fall into this category, but animals like teno or Magy would as well.
It’s not even so much as to limit apex pops, it would do that but that’s not my initial intent, it’s just to add a dynamic between when/bow herbis get their dietary food, that carnivores hunting them can observe and exploit, making eating one of your 3 diets a much more tense transaction that you know implicates a ticking clock you must fulfill. Plus it services the oh so rare intra species competition that would, again, add a lot to herbivore gameplay.

[hasty coyote]

also, i just dislike sickness just being a result from any combat because that just punishes people who are forced to fight. Maybe specific dinos can give sickness, but not all of them.

[thin mantle]

Just for clarification. I would never suggest poisonous bushes should surprise you to be inconsistent in any way, I’d want it to literally say in your character menu
“Protein: (Insert X plant), Toxic. Find charcoal to neutralize the toxins quickly or you’ll lose a significant chunk of your hp”
Like I’d never want something that debuffs you that significantly to not be explained or at least blatantly intuitive (or really just any debuff)

[hasty coyote]

that too can be interesting. I mainly just want food to be MUCH more limited, but still easy to find. Like yeah, you can find your diet spots easily, but will there be enough to feed the herd?

[dreamy fiber]

Mmm, that kinda directly contradicts what the devs aim for though. They've aimed for herbivores to be traversing the map, so to get them tostay in one place isn't really workable with the current direction of the game. I would think that smaller dinosaurs less able to traverse should have their diets closer together, whilelarger herbivores should be travelling and migrating more.

[thin mantle]

Mhm, that and grazing being biome specific, like different biomes having different grasses that only native species can access

[hasty coyote]

theres a lot they can do with these types of mechanics, just gotta hope they dont make them abuseable.

[thin mantle]

Then I’d probably say the devs are colossally shortsighted, but I seriously doubt that is actually the long term plan.
Forcing everything that eats plants to behave migratory is hilariously silly, and it closes off loads of interesting design opportunities with biomes and how specialized some herbis are over others. Plus for apexes, it makes their growth much Lee boring but also easier, apex herbis having smaller ranges makes them more predictable, and thus easier to regulate in their populations through the frequency of hunting… so many opportunities that would simply go to waste.

[dreamy fiber]

Pretty much. I think when people see these kinds of suggestions they tend to get a lot of negative reactions but the suggestion only really reflect a small part of the discussion, balancing and QA that would need to take place before a workable system was implemented into the public build. I think some people also just kind don't klike it cause it just seems like it negatively affects them, rather than considering what might actually be better for the game.

[thin mantle]

Well tbf, one of the points of said toxicity for some dietary plants would be for predators to “exploit” them, but I get what you mean

[dreamy fiber]

I think the intention is that people know the migration pattern, idk. I'm generally just more in favour of diversity overall though. I don't think large herbivores should all be in one place, nor all smalls. I'd just like to have lots of different playstyles.

that said, teno probably doesn't fit a sedentary life given it's supposed ties to water

even if that's only really represented in the potato roots rn lol

[thin mantle]

Well same, the idea that all animals of a certain size category should have an identical loop of gameplay aside front heir special abilities is silly to me

[hasty coyote]

I didnt mean you're mechanic specifically. Just sickness and anti-X behavior mechanics.

[thin mantle]

Ahh gotcha

[thin mantle]

Well I’d never suggest it be sedentary, just that it’s travel range wouldn’t be spanning over several biomes, like teno being a primarily swamp dwelling herbi that occasionally has to venture into the forests- plains momentarily for a plant it needs, but not having to go so far as to travel half the map. Teno has the best swim speed of any terrestrial dino so it’s aquatic inclination is definitely on display apart from potatos.

Right now it’s not got any predominant location, teno has to go from swamp all the way to north west, the opposite ends of the map…. This is especially silly to me given how optimized teno is for the swamps, or areas with a lot of shallow water

[dreamy fiber]

at the moment they just treat every herbivore like they should migrate
that said, I think the teno should migrate tbh. But thats a small detail. I think I like theidea that it follows the waterways, and those span the whole map.

[thin mantle]

Ehh, the existence of deino makes rivers a very poor choice to leverage against, I don’t think I could get behind that.

If deino wasn’t a factor then sure, but it is

[dreamy fiber]

It's not like its gonna be in the river LOL
it's mostly just something to swim across. But it also has a decent land speed and okay stam

It's just kinda good all round imo
I like travelling with the teno a lot

[thin mantle]

Right I know, but deinos don’t make that a good strategy unless you’re in a semi abandoned part of the map

[thin mantle]

So do I, I just don’t think based on that it should migrate significantly. I think it would function better as a more consistently swamp centered animal that has to do brief and short migrations into adjacent plains for a specific plant

[dreamy fiber]

idk, I think if it's fun to use to travel, it should be used to travel even if it is a really good swimmer. Hadrosaurs are generally great for travelling too in a lot of games, but we don't really have any right now. And it beats travelling as something slow and more lumbering like stego. I guess the tl;dr is I'd rather have the playstyle that's most fun picked for each thing rather than one that makes the absolute most logical sense.

[thin mantle]

Well teno isn’t a hadrosaur, nor do I find it relevant how common the trope of hadrosaurs migrating in games relevant to how they should play in this game specifically.
Fun can’t be measured as well, I’d personally prefer teno to not be a animal constantly traveling because that’s tantamount to finding my preferred route and holding W until I reach my destination, I’ll get more consistent and favorable interactions when I’m spending more time in one place in an environment that favors me, going into the plains as a teno is braindead stupid, it affords you absolutely no benefits aside from gaining your radishes, and rivers are not nearly a good enough excuse to make tenos go THAT far from their core biome.

And on top of all of this, as a teno with 80% of your dietary plants in swamp, you can still go wherever you want if you’ve planned accordingly, on average with full diets you have an hour or more before you need to fill one up again, this doesn’t ban any form of player behavior you wish to partake in, it just makes teno populations more centralized for the sake of niche partitioning with the rest of the roster.

[dreamy fiber]

i know it's not a hadrosaur. I'm basically saying "if teno didn't do it, hadrosaurs could, but we don't have any rn so teno is the only bet".

Also, no. 2/3 is in the swamp, and 2/3 is NW.

But yes, fun is subjective. But we don't have a goodsubstitute for travelling gameplay rn.

[hasty coyote]

how about we do both? have 2 swamps with 2 diets each, but you need to travel between the 2 swamps to get all your diet?

[dreamy fiber]

That would be interesting.

[hasty coyote]

that way, you can live comfortably in a swamp, but its more of a journey to get the third

[thin mantle]

Well, travel is barely gameplay so I have no qualms with sacrificing it. I’m thinking longer term, and since nesting is literally about to drop, we will have gameplay alternatives to traveling soon

[thin mantle]

This is better

[dreamy fiber]

^ retty much

but idk, I don't like sitting in one spot for an hour and a half. I justendup sitting somewhere and tuning out tbh

It's less that travelling is gameplay in itself, but that it gives a direction and something to do.

[thin mantle]

Well, toxic plants and having a more predictable location for predators would ensure that wouldn’t happen unless the server is empty, so I’d bench that concern for the sake of the hypothetical

Again, think long term

[dreamy fiber]

toxic plants aren't confirmed long-term and so they can't really be thoguht too hard about.

[thin mantle]

Right, but literally all of this is hypothetical and an idea to make herbi gameplay more interesting and to be less of a walking sim, so I’m including it

Plus I definitely think it’s a reasonable idea, especially since Kissen and punch have mentioned poisonous plants before

Awhile ago, but they’ve been mentioned

[dreamy fiber]

I don't think that's a good idea. If you mix two ideas which aren't yet confirmed, then the idea you end up with means they end up being intertwined with eachother. That means that each idea is less functional on its own feet and it can also cause people to tunnel-vision on how they should work and don't consider the other options as much.

[thin mantle]

Well, I consider it one idea, so I guess we’re good then 👍

[dreamy fiber]

yeah that's fair enough

[thin mantle]

Plus I simply don’t tunnel vision, I don’t have the necessary arrogance for that, and I don’t cater to idiots who do, so I think it’s fine

[frail bobcat]

@obtuse bison The rex should be able to kill a trike, but the trike should have the upperhand

[hasty coyote]

rex and trike also aren't in the game yet

[obtuse bison]

If u just turned into an adult rex ur dead if an adult trike fights i

[obtuse bison]

they are lol

[frail bobcat]

you mean legacy

[thin mantle]

They’re not

[hasty coyote]

oh, you're on legacy. thats not being updated anymore

[frail bobcat]

and if you lose to a trike as a rex, you are a bad rex

[obtuse bison]

oh

[thin mantle]

In legacy, that matchup is absurdly easy, double bites never fail

[hasty coyote]

Yeah, so that matchup isnt being changed, nothing is. I would reccomend swapping to evrima for better balanced fights, but it does have much less dinos

[golden coral]

@alpine plover Isn't that just .. pounce itself? :p

[alpine plover]

is it really the same?

[golden coral]

But if you're using it while you're pouncing.. what's the point?

[alpine plover]

it does damage and more bleed

and at the same time you get off the prey further away

[golden coral]

So you'd add an extra attack at extra cost while you could just keep pouncing? Or is it just supposed to be a dismount kick off, because that would be something different?

[alpine plover]

something like a dismount

but you do damage while doing that

it would cost 50% of your stamina

or less

[golden coral]

I would imagine that'd lead to either only use that, or pounce normally, considering buck as well. But I'm not sure on it, cause in that case you could just trade out pounce for this attach/kick/detatch routine?

So you wouldn't both pounce normally and then use this, that'd be more stamina than you'd have. So in that case it'd be much less damage/bleed for a safer dismount possibly, vs stayin on and inflicting more but risking the more dangerous dismount maybe.

[alpine plover]

pierce and detach are mixed together

pounce till half stam, then pierce

[golden coral]

Yeah. But if you make that one useful, and costly, then you wouldn't be able to stay on for a normal pounce and then use it. Either you'd stay on and then dismount normally for more damage/bleed, or have a quicker attack/dismount with less bleed/damage but given more range.

That might only work if the target does not buck at all then

[alpine plover]

piercing would deal more damage and bleed than a pounce, since you're piercing through the skin

[alpine plover]

thats why it wont be overused

[golden coral]

But if the target bucks, you'd not be able to pounce + kick, since you'd be too low to kick unless you do it immediately. So.. then you'd still have a choice and not be able to do both of them?

[alpine plover]

thats the point, that way it wont be overused

[golden coral]

You don't get to both do more damage/bleed and get a better dismount, that's not reasonable I don't think.

Either let it be weaker but safer, or more dangerous but riskier. That seems better, giving it an actual choice vs another option.

[golden coral]

It's more so that it won't be used at all. Or pounce won't be. You need to make sure neither option is the better in all cases.

[alpine plover]

thats why if you use it at less than 50% stam you wouldn't be able to escape

[golden coral]

Which would happen almost immediately if the target bucks.. which again, would mean you need to make sure either option has it's uses. Risk staying on for longer, or just get off. That's why I don't think it should both add power and safety.

You could make the kickoff deal much less bleed/damage, but letting you get off safer. This way you need to do that many more times but you get some safety. Vs staying on for actual damage but risk your life getting off every time instead.

[alpine plover]

who said it would give more safety

you just dismount, you dont fly off

[golden coral]

You did mention getting off further away, which would give more safety?

[alpine plover]

the same distance as when you pounce

or get rid of the dismount, like if it was an additional attack when pouncing, like you said.

[golden coral]

I guess, I'm just not sure on the need for it, or the point really. Normal pounce does massive effect, so then you'd have to change around the values too. And still not sure on where the tradeoff would be best put in.

[alpine plover]

if it worked atleast

[golden coral]

Yes well, but that's an entirely different issue. This would not help making pounce itself work anyway so :p

I think it'd be more interesting if this added dismount benefits but lacked power, so it'd be a trade between staying on properly, at the risk of kill on dismount, vs having to get more pounces in, but having a safer dismount.

[alpine plover]

i dont know at this point, i just thought it would be cool

[alpine plover]

yea but it wouldn't make sense, since it litteraly pierces throught the skin

[golden coral]

I'm not against the idea of some sort of kick, I just don't think it should be for both damage and dismount, and I think it'd be more beneficial for dismount than added power, since part of the point of pounce should be to remain on the target to deal all that bleed.

I mean.. game balance. Plenty of things in the game that doesn't make much sense.. :p

[alpine plover]

the main source of damage would be bleed, not damage

[golden coral]

It already is for pounce, so that'd make no difference.

[alpine plover]

not raw damage**

[golden coral]

Sorry, should have been clearer, but "damage" here would mean bleed damage. Since that's what pounce does in the first place.

Pounce barely does raw damage, it just does massive bleed

[alpine plover]

mmaybe make pounce do less bleed damage? and more hp damage?

[tranquil pawn]

This doesn't seem like it has a good reason to be added, why not just pounce normally

[alpine plover]

eh, i think its cool

[tranquil pawn]

Cool though it is, it doesn't need to be added

[alpine plover]

maybe for austro?

[tranquil pawn]

Yeah Austro has a kick in its concept, could work

I'm on my phone but I'll hop on my computer and grab it in a sec

[alpine plover]

thats my favorite thing about raptors, i'd love to see it in game

[tranquil pawn]

Galli has kick which is pog

[golden coral]

Considering pounce is meant to do bleed, I don't know. Honestly sounds like the kick would do more damage honstly. And yes, austro could possibly have something like this. More of a .. cassowary kind of kick deal style? Like, jump on/kick off immediately, inflict a chunk of damage or bleed, get out and then keep running.

[golden coral]

Legacy galli machine gun kick! Good times ^^

[tranquil pawn]

[alpine plover]

it would work imo, its up to the devs

i just hope the isle will last

wouldn't be cool if herrera feeds off insects?

nvm

[tranquil pawn]

Hypsi

[alpine plover]

yes

[tranquil pawn]

No, hypsi

[alpine plover]

hypsi is an herb

[tranquil pawn]

Hypsi climbs, herra climbs, herra eat hypsi

[alpine plover]

does it still count as herb?

[tranquil pawn]

Also Beipe eats water reeds and frogs and fish

Hypsi is a herb, I'm saying herra should eat hypsi

[alpine plover]

thats why i deleted the message

[tranquil pawn]

Ok

[alpine plover]

and hypsi would eat insects, like grazing

but insects

[tranquil pawn]

Cool

[alpine plover]

i want

[tranquil pawn]

I think mammals and synapsids and therapsids would ruin immersion

[alpine plover]

maybe

[tranquil pawn]

godamnit clyde I want you to burn in the cruel pits of hell for all eternity then have god drag you out then slap you while shouting "SYKE" then throwing you back in

my guy it was a concept art

[alpine plover]

eh

[tranquil pawn]

the bugger did it again

[alpine plover]

im confused

"mostly accurate"

[tranquil pawn]

it's a stupid bot that stops you from posting NSFW stuff but it's so dumb that it can't do its job right and people can still post inappropriate crap but it stops you from posting normal things

[alpine plover]

what were you trying to post

[tranquil pawn]

my guy that bot has got to be the stupidest code ever written

[tranquil pawn]

austro concept of it kicking

[alpine plover]

oooooooooh

i've seen it, dont worry lol

[tranquil pawn]

BLOODY HELL CLYDE
you fucking did it again

[alpine plover]

i'll try

[tranquil pawn]

lemme post the shit!

[alpine plover]

haven't seen this....

[tranquil pawn]

really?

[alpine plover]

i dont like the concept arts, they're too cartoony

the S shaped neck

what is this

[tranquil pawn]

||jk|| I think they're literally just the name, concepts of what the creature will do and act like, but they aren't exactly accurate to ingame, such as the neck which won't be a thing dw

[tranquil pawn]

I mean it's not unnrealistic

[alpine plover]

this is a concept of how the animal will look tho

very bad design

[tranquil pawn]

the head is too big and the neck is too thin

[alpine plover]

it looks like ti has fur in its body but you can see the skin details in the legs and neck

the head is bigger than its body

[tranquil pawn]

pretty sure the feathers are meant to be really tightly packed as it's aquatic but still yeah too tightly packed

I mean this concept at least looks feathered

[alpine plover]

haven't seen this

[tranquil pawn]

yeah the head and neck would look bad for a model, literally shrink the head and give the neck a bit more thicc and it's pretty good as the model will def have more defined feathers

[tranquil pawn]

now you have

[alpine plover]

the head is so much bigger than the body

what is this!?

[tranquil pawn]

I get the heron asthetic but it's pretty cartoonised , make it shorter and pog

[alpine plover]

theri is cool tho

[tranquil pawn]

yeah that's the old model with the new skin reference, the one with the new model and the skin looks much better

[alpine plover]

this vid says it all

[somber sphinx]

They did fix it in its consept art tho

[tranquil pawn]

wdym? oh I thought you meant theri, nah I gotcha

[tranquil pawn]

mhm

omg so much better

YES, CLYDE THANK YOU JESUS!

[alpine plover]

its too thin