balance-feedback-discussion

[carmine patrol]

exactly, It's actually ok, but it should get nerfed until the roster is bigger and it has competition

[ocean wagon]

Stego doesn’t need a nerf? Stego physically can’t hunt anything down. 99% of stego fights are because someone decided they wanted to fight it and they die

[hollow canyon]

Yea, pretty much

[ocean wagon]

Why does it need to be nerfed though lmao

[hollow canyon]

I think the only thing I'd change about Stego is that it shouldn't be allowed to group

[ocean wagon]

Just walk away from it

[white cove]

The only thing stego kills is things that make the mistake of fighting it 🤷‍♂️

[hollow canyon]

Deino does nowhere near as bad vs Stego as most people say

2 Deinos clap a Stego most of the time without either of them dying

[white cove]

they're pretty much just the sauropods of the current roster

[ocean wagon]

Deino can choose if it wants to engage a stego or not

[hollow canyon]

As I stated before - if you see someone claiming that 5 Deinos died to 1 Stego that's because Deino players don't have hands

[carmine patrol]

just like how deino has such a weak bite, it's bite does 500N just to be more "fitting" with the current roster

[hollow canyon]

No?

[ocean wagon]

HUH?

[hollow canyon]

Its bite is 500 because it's meant to be 500

[ocean wagon]

Oh no, not another deinosaurus rex

[hollow canyon]

I swear this idea of it getting buffed later on that got started by the community got so ingrained that people think that it's something that's been promised by the devs

[carmine patrol]

I don't think so, isn't it supposed to have the second strongest bite in the game?

even wavepoole said that

[hollow canyon]

Not at all, nobody said that

[carmine patrol]

Wavepoole did

[hollow canyon]

Idk where Wavepoole gets that information from but that's just his opinion

He is a QA member but trust me - if this was some insider info - he wouldn't be allowed to share it

[ocean wagon]

Deino is an predator that specializes in ambushing small-mid tier Dino’s. Deino is not a damage power house like shant Rex etc etc

[hollow canyon]

let me just ask him straight away

[carmine patrol]

do it

you'll see

[hollow canyon]

@dusky surge Just to make sure the idea that Deino is getting a bite force buff later is your belief, right? This isn't some insider info.

I mean I'm pretty sure because the QAs aren't allowed to share the info that the devs haven't given to the community themselves

and no dev has spoken about Deino getting a stronger biteforce later on

[ocean wagon]

^

[hollow canyon]

and no dev spoke about it having the second highest biteforce in the game either

Deino HAD the second highest biteforce of all the animals in the game... in real life

but that's a different thing

[carmine patrol]

Deino is an apex, and stego is a sub apex, It shouldn't be bullying deinos so easily

[hollow canyon]

I disagree

Stego isn't a subapex anymore than Deino is

[white cove]

yeah it should, don't fuck with stegos as a deino it's pretty simple

[hollow canyon]

I find Deino less convincing as an apex than Stego with the current information

[white cove]

And I think it's balanced out by the fact that until a stego is 80% deino players can one button no counterplay kill it which they don't seem to be complaining about

[hollow canyon]

Deino is confirmed to be getting clapped by Spino

meanwhile Stego isn't confirmed to be losing a fight to any apexes

[carmine patrol]

by who?

[hollow canyon]

I mean... it can't

[hollow canyon]

Punch

[wise sparrow]

Honestly deino is also a sub apex. Its weight puts it in apex teir but its kit is probably worse than stegos

[hollow canyon]

When asked about the interaction between these two, he said: "Deino's best option is to swim away"

Spino is supposed to just slap it and clap it

Also - just to be perfectly clear - Deino vs Stego is heavily Stego-favoured but

I did win against Stego as Deino 1v1 while testing yesterday

[wise sparrow]

Our spino is a literal kaiju so it'd definitely clap it. Thing looks as armored as a hypo

[hollow canyon]

it's doable just not reliably

you won't see me attacking Stegos with my Deino any time soon most likely unless I'm feeling particularly adventurous but

[mighty knot]

Deino can win 1v1 if it can get all headshots, even if the stego spams the quick poke

[hollow canyon]

2v1 Deinos kill a Stego quite reliably

Nah it's not even so much about getting the headshots

the way you do it is by ermmm... kind of bugging yourself out?

or if Stego is bad at protecting its head of course

[wise sparrow]

Deino can almost always effortlessly win a 1v1 with a simple move.

Swimming the fuck away

[mighty knot]

Normally how they die

[hollow canyon]

What I did was basically - I got myself stuck beneath the Stego and just chomped it from there

2 Deinos either kill a Stego or it runs away

[mighty knot]

That's tough to do consistently I figure

[hollow canyon]

Honestly probably the most painful thing with regard to this match up to me was that speed nerf that Deino got

I had a lot of issues staying on top of Stego and maneuvering around it while fighting it

if it runs in land the fight is basically over

[mighty knot]

Yeah and also deino can't disengage it's basically suicide

[hollow canyon]

I did disengage actually

like twice

[mighty knot]

Cause the stego will get it twice as it turns usually

[hollow canyon]

but since we were fighting to the death I got back in there in a moment

[mighty knot]

Plus if it follows maybe it will hitbox it under the water

Especially if the deino doesn't know that the stego can hitbox a meter or 5 under it

[hollow canyon]

it's definitely a Stego favoured match, but nowhere near as bad for Deino as people make it out to be

[mighty knot]

I can agree with that

[white cove]

Grim truth: the two aren't supposed to fight each other, and when they do fight each other the stego is supposed to win 🤷‍♂️

[hollow canyon]

you see the issue with Deino is pretty much the same as the issue with Tenonto - people that play it either don't have hands or don't know how to control their animal

that's why I'd killed 5 Deinos last time I was playing Deino

[mighty knot]

Exactly, but this is the isle so stegos chase deinos into the water and deny them any food at all given chances

[hollow canyon]

most players that play it are just atrociously bad

a little picture here - I'd attacked these two while not even being full hp

[mighty knot]

Stegos in my opinion should have some sort of insensitive to avoid fighting deinos

[hollow canyon]

just for some clarity - if you maximise it you will see two river worms in the upper right corner crawling away from me

[white cove]

Most players are atrociously bad, and the ones that are good aren't fantastically good - it's a different kind of skill expression compared to FPS' or RTS'. A lot more goes into being 'good' or 'bad' than how competently you can 1v1 X dinosaur as Y dinosaur

[mighty knot]

Even if they actually win the fight every time I think there needs to be some way to make them think it's not worth it

Like fracture

Just so that the two actually don't fight

[hollow canyon]

they are disincentivised from fighting Deinos by the fact that Deino can kill them

[white cove]

Like, I'd argue the best player at 1v1'ing that doesn't reliably get their dino to full grown or never manages to get good 1v1 engagements is worse than a player that can't 1v1 on almost any dino but knows all the best growing spots and uses sound to find a herd/pack

[hollow canyon]

I mean... they would be if Deino players actually utilised their animal properly

[mighty knot]

I suppose if stegos knew their life was at risk they would care a little more than to place themselves body deep in waters with 4 adult deinos

[hollow canyon]

The issue is that most of them just press lmb hoping for the best and then end up surprised when a Stego mashes rmb and wins the fight

[carmine patrol]

how do you do that, I don't usually play deino, but isn't deino combat basicall "spam left click"?

[mighty knot]

But it's funny that their life probably isn't at risk because of the people playing deino

[hollow canyon]

absolutely not

For starters - Deino can stun a Stego with the lunge

[mighty knot]

Not even a little lol

[white cove]

Yeah, for some reason stegos standing in the water really upsets deino players because they think they should be the undisputed king of all things water and near water

[hollow canyon]

you open up the fight by lunging, preferably their head

[mighty knot]

It still stuns itself afaik

[hollow canyon]

it makes them unable to fight back for a moment

[carmine patrol]

the stun isn't long enough for you to land a bite

[white cove]

still free damage though, and you get unstunned quicker

[mighty knot]

Like the stego can't move and the deino can, but neither can attack

[hollow canyon]

you then want to go for the head with alt bites and bites

now, the thing about Deino is that

[white cove]

not enough to just start biting, but you can position closer to the head and further from the tail

[mighty knot]

And aken do you know if the lunge will allow you to save a bite?

[hollow canyon]

thre's a way for you to increase your dps by interchanging bites and alt bites

[mighty knot]

I don't think it does enough damage

[white cove]

and a good stego won't use the first ~second of being unstunned to mash RMB, but rather to position so that the next swings are quick jabs

[hollow canyon]

it will

[mighty knot]

I learned this in the beta test lol, it's better on stam too

[hollow canyon]

just based on how locational works in the game

[mighty knot]

Yea

[hollow canyon]

Let me put it this way

Stego has 6k health, right?

[carmine patrol]

Aken where do you test this, taco island, ScopeOG or do you have your own server?

[hollow canyon]

I tested it on Taco Island but I don't have an admin there and it was my first time on that server, I normally have a tonne of issues accessing it

[mighty knot]

What is taco island

[hollow canyon]

I'm not sure when will be the next time I can get onto it because the server browser likes to troll me

[mighty knot]

Never heard of it

[hollow canyon]

it's a server where you can get an admin and test stuff for yourself

[carmine patrol]

Nice, I have admin there, we can test this later on if you want

[white cove]

Anyone willing to test some pounce shenanigans there or on Scope's rn?

[hollow canyon]

In general I barely ever get to get onto Taco Island

[mighty knot]

I would be glad to get on and mess around with it, I'll be available in I believe 2 hours

Might be able to get some more definitive information

[carmine patrol]

good for me

[hollow canyon]

The issue for me is that I typically don't see NA servers in the browser

I sometimes see them but not every time when I look them up

[mighty knot]

Hide empty doesn't work either?

[white cove]

anyone got an invite to the taco island discord?

[hollow canyon]

yea it doesn't always work

[carmine patrol]

just search it on the search bar

it always works

[hollow canyon]

yea I know I can search for it, but that's the issue - it typicall just doesn't show for me, at least that's how it used to be

Idk it worked yesterday but normally it didn't

that's why I'd spent 3h+ there, cause I normally don't get to get on those servers

[carmine patrol]

it is probably down most of the time you try

[hollow canyon]

also my prior testing was typically done on a server that was owned by a friend of mine

[hollow canyon]

it's not just about Taco Island btw

[carmine patrol]

is an EU server?

[mighty knot]

Tek you think you could dm me the disc inv for taco island?

[white cove]

^

[carmine patrol]

sadly I don't have it

[white cove]

I found the server but can't find a discord attached

[hollow canyon]

I don't want to spam this channel with what my issue with the servers in Evrima is but I generally just don't see some of the servers in the browser and if I don't see one in the browser I can't access it even if I try to connect to it via steam

it basically just throws me to the main menu

so this isn't an issue with just not seeing the server, I have some issues with the connection there it seems

I had the same issue with MrDbear's server when I was trying to connect to it back in the day

and some other test servers

[carmine patrol]

aww, that sucks, i really wanted to test out some stuff with you cus you seem like a good player/challenger unlike most people

[hollow canyon]

It really depends, maybe it will work, I will have to see

[carmine patrol]

ye sure, I hope it works

[hollow canyon]

I sometimes get to connect to them, it's just not always

[unborn iris]

Even the steam server browser? Make it favorite so it shows when you filter by favorites?

Nvm, see you already mentioned that.

[white cove]

yeah i ammend my earlier statement, carno really can turn too well while sprinting.

[wanton hedge]

is pachy rn just huge walking food that u grow for 2 hours?

[hollow canyon]

It's kind of bad I think, I wouldn't play it after that turn rate nerf but idk. I don't think that growing it should take that long though, that's how long it takes me to grow Tenonto.

[wise sparrow]

Yes. When carno can ass ride it. You know that animal is the definition of unviable

[thin mantle]

Tbh it’s mainly because Carno turns far too well rn

A standing-trotting turn buff for an animal that carries its momentum when it stops sprinting is literally just a general turn buff

[wise sparrow]

Even then. If pachy can't alt swing its attacker and it gets behind it. It literally cant do anything

[white cove]

I will put an X next to every whiny nerf stego suggestion

I cannot be stopped, I will not be stopped

[wise sparrow]

@obtuse sky there is no way a competent stego will die to any amount of carnos. Hell, stego is actually huntable by utah now. Deino isn't supposed to be attacking stego in the first place anyway

[white cove]

It's like the only animal you have the choice to never engage and it never gets to pick the engagement

[white cove]

Deino players don't like to be told no

sure they can press 1 button and kill any stego smaller than 80%, also the rest of the roster

but you don't see any deino player complaining that the only counterplay to lunge now that shallows are removed is to hope any passing deino doesn't have stamina

[wise sparrow]

Trust me guys deino is still in a bad place. It needs fracture and more damage and to 2 shot stego in the head

[white cove]

nono, it's a crocodile

if it gets a headshot off it should 1 shot

akshually, modern day crocondiles can have bite force of 16460 N, so a bigger croc should have a bite force of at least 32000 N thank you for coming to my ted talk

crocondiles is staying

[hollow canyon]

@obtuse sky 2 Deinos can kill a Stego, one Deino can sometimes pull it off but it depends on how good/bad Stego is at protecting its head and how it plays the fight exactly(as well as quite a bit of luck on Deinos side).

"Multiple" makes it sounds like you need half a dozen of crocs to take down a Stego which simply isn't true

...I mean it is when Deino players are bad which they in the vast majority are

[wise sparrow]

Deino mains wen they cant facetank

[hollow canyon]

and no, this is mainly because Pachy turns like garbage, which absolutely shouldn't be the case

[hasty coyote]

it's not only that, I have been able to fight carnos, granted they were bad, as a pachy. The issue is also the escape afterwards. Carno rammed me, somehow missed its bites, so i break its head and ribs and run into the jungle. The dam rat tracked me into the jungle, and his head and ribs were still broken, before i even fully recovered my stam. I managed to run because he was blind, but still.

[hollow canyon]

I mean the issue is that tracking is just broken level of good atm

the countermeasures to it are awful

that definitely needs a rework

[hasty coyote]

yeah, i just posted my suggestions on how to fix pachy. Tracking is likely going to get nerfed next patch.

[fresh laurel]

Ima just rex and kill the deinos that try to face tank me >:D

I mean lets be real, Rex ingame will prob bite harder than deino cus balance

[hasty coyote]

heres the issue, those deinos who face tank are also rexes now

[fresh laurel]

then ima go giga and just bite a rex a few times and run into the dense foliage and let rex bleed out

[hasty coyote]

then they just face tank the bleed, checkmate

[thin mantle]

Prolly shoulda reworded that to: Carno turns far better than Pachy

[thin mantle]

If rex has fracture (it will) this will basically be impossible to do

[sinful cove]

giga and rex really shouldnt be fighting, it worked decently in legacy where a giga could easily avoid conflict with a rex if it saw it coming. even though legacy balance was still shit

[spare badger]

Literally the best scent feedback I've ever seen and it's exactly what I want

[hasty coyote]

because it the obvious thing to do that improves it drastically

[spare badger]

True
But someone has finally said it

[hollow canyon]

I disagree tbh, I think it was missing only a couple of fixes. Pachy, Trike, Cerato, Para needed some help and Sucho needed a better trot, that's about it in terms of legacy balance issues.

As for Giga and Rex I don't see a reason why they shouldn't fight, I think it's better if they are encouraged to fight each other.

[sinful cove]

giga was utterly busted in legacy as well, it was a problem

rex was its only real population check since its endurance build allowed it to fodderize almost all mid tiers and also trikes

[hollow canyon]

I disagree with Giga being utterly busted, it was a bit too good vs a couple of animals but I've never had one trot me down

[sinful cove]

trike had problems as well. maia had problems because it had offensive capabilities to go with its speed. galli had problems because of its machien gun kick, rex's rng bone break was kid of an issue

[hollow canyon]

the only mid tiers that really suffered at the hands of Giga were Sucho and I think Cerato

I don't view Maia as an issue, it was a bit weird but I didn't mind it while playing a Dilo

[sinful cove]

para was demolished by giga, mediocre speed, awful stam regen, giga could walk after it across the map if it wanted to

[hollow canyon]

Para was... a special case, you could survive with it with relative ease but it was a lame way of surviving

[sinful cove]

i also had very little trouble tracking allo groups too

[hollow canyon]

you just kind of... ran forward and then logged out

Throughout all of my time in legacy I've never been tracked down by a Giga while playing an Allo

[sinful cove]

diablo was a good example of a well balanced slower herbi because its stam regen allowed it to stay away from gigas well enough, but poor para...

[hollow canyon]

I did die to Gigas but mainly their ambush or when I was messing with them

Yea, Diablo was a really well balanced animal

Para was just a one big issue it got overnerfed without any compensation

[sinful cove]

there werent a lot of animals i had consistent trouble tracking forever as a giga, they had to pray for rain

para and trike both got hit with a nerf bat with no compensation

[hollow canyon]

it was a problematic animal prior to its nerf but when you nerf something this hard you need to give it something in return so that it doesn't become fodder

I've never had issues against Gigas as a Trike

1v1 it was slightly Giga favoured but very much possible for Trike to win

[sinful cove]

i 1v1ed every trike pretty effortlessly as giga, some tried to play on the offensive and got me to last screen before they died but others were a cakewalk

[hollow canyon]

I've 1v2ed Trikes as a Giga but they were hot garbage

most Trike players were awful in legacy

I've won most of my fights vs Giga as a Trike in legacy

it's just entirely reliant on Trike not trotting but walking and landing more hits than Giga lands on it

[sinful cove]

most gigas are about as smart as a baked potato whic ive seen, they have 0 patience

[hollow canyon]

the main issue was tbh the damage disparity between the gore and the giga bite

[sinful cove]

the kind of gigas who run in for a camara and just try facetanking too many hits

[hollow canyon]

nah, I mean when they were trying to bleed me out

[sinful cove]

but any patient giga just kinda roflstomps trikes

[hollow canyon]

Trike just doesn't get bled out that easily if it walks

its trotting bleed resist is awful though

[sinful cove]

trike bleeds out easier than giga in the tradeoff

[hollow canyon]

and most trikes trot in a fight like that which causes them to die

[sinful cove]

trikes who dont try to move after me and stand their ground while i walked circles around them bled out all the same

[hollow canyon]

Oh no, Trike has to be moving, it's just that it has to be walking

[sinful cove]

they simply cant touch the giga after it applies its hits, the giga is in full control of the melee

[hollow canyon]

it can't run unless it's tailriding the Giga

if it gets to tailride a GIga(which requires Giga to be dumb enough to go into the engagement without charging ambush) it can run for a bit as the damage disparity brings Giga down

[sinful cove]

i did kill my friend's giga as a trike while playing aggressively but he was a horrible player

[hollow canyon]

but in general Idk I've won the vast majority of my fights vs Giga

I've won far more fights vs Gigas than vs Rexes

vs Rexes I won a couple of times but the Rex players were just awful

[sinful cove]

i usually won maybe half the time when playing trike if a giga 1V1ed, but the gigas usually played very poorly

they were the kind of players who failed to trade hits because they were being spastic or ran in at bad angles and took too much damage

i didnt play trike very often though, because imo it wasnt worth the time to grow

[hollow canyon]

Idk I don't have legacy anymore and I haven't played it in ages but I'm quite confident I could take on a Giga as a Trike even now

Oh yea, Trike definitely wasn't worth it

just a bad animal with a bad growth on top of that

What it needed the most imo was a buff to the damage output

just a simple buff to the gore damage

[sinful cove]

giga was worth it because of the end product, rex was worth it because it was one of the best juvi stages and a good sub stage, but trike was shitty juvi, shitty sub, and not a good end product

[hollow canyon]

yea, pretty much

Rex's adult wasn't bad either

it's just a very... niche animal?

[sinful cove]

yeah it was good, but it was pretty boring due to its slow travel speed

[hollow canyon]

It was extremely good at specific things but tbh it wasn't very fun to play

[sinful cove]

rex was basically a pure ambush hunter on anything but trike, while giga could both ambush and endurance hunt pretty well and was good at travel

[fresh laurel]

imo giga should be allowed to fight rex

[hollow canyon]

Yea, Rex wasn't a very good hunter in general

it was more of a bully and a brawler

[sinful cove]

giga should be allowed to fight rex but the two shouldnt really want to fight

[fresh laurel]

though giga should win a prolonged fight while rex would win a close combat only fight

a giga fight as rex could leave you on the verge of bleeding to death

if not just bleed you out

[sinful cove]

a rex could cripple your giga and basically spell doom or leave you crippled after, a giga would slice your rex up like a razor, wouldnt be a confrontation either would want to lose 8 hours for

[fresh laurel]

plus flesh grazing could be a ability for giga soo....

[fresh laurel]

with evrima balancing it would be harder to just tail ride a broken leg giga and even then you can sprint with leg break...

dont think giga will be easy food anymore when broken legged

and evrima new weight system might mean giga gets a hp advantage too so neat ngl

[sinful cove]

true but at that point the rex still gains more control of the confrontation

so you as the giga also become less likely to be able to kill the rex since it can now just disengage, leave you wounded and waste your time

[fresh laurel]

I'm saaying depending on how the fight goes one would kill the other but in a very close way...

[rancid bluff]

giga took longer to grow than rex in legacy and rarely could win in a 1v1 against a rex

[fresh laurel]

like giga gonna not wanna tank the rex....

[fresh laurel]

I mean giga had stronger young stages that were kinda bad due to being slow as hell

[sinful cove]

yeah so that risk should be weighed with the reward, would it be worth starting the fight to begin with? for a lot of people im sure it still would, but then they come crying to balance to cry for nerfs on to their opponent lol

[fresh laurel]

Watch the rex mains cry that they bled out after fighting a giga

[sinful cove]

a lot of people dont stop to think "maybe i shouldnt have started a random fight with another apex"

[rancid bluff]

giga's juvi stage was stronger than juvi rex, same for sub giga, but sub giga was easily tail ridden by sub rex and sub rex was just better better in every way cause it had more thought put into it, same goes for juvi rex

[hollow canyon]

sub Giga was only bad because it was bugged

[fresh laurel]

actually thats not true... giga sub had the better sprinting turn

[fresh laurel]

elaborate

[rancid bluff]

yeah, but the walking and trotting turn radius have the same radius as the run

[hasty coyote]

Anyone: facetanks and dies
Also them: WHY DO I DIE !!!!!! NO FAIR

[sinful cove]

OMFG i kileled a gigs as my rex and even thouoh i kileld it i still bleed out ????? DONDI fix your stupid game!!!!!!!!! Rex should stop beleding when it is sittign down!!!!

[hollow canyon]

its model was getting stuck at a certain size, which was causing it to be slower than intended

you know how the charcter screen states sub Giga's speed to be 30.6km/h?

That's not what it really was

if it was the case sub Giga would be running as fast as adult

meanwhile Adult could run it down in a straight line

sub Giga was actually marginally faster than an adult Trike

[rancid bluff]

yeah a lot of juvis have that same problem, mainly herbivores

[sinful cove]

ugh juvi galli and maia lol

[rancid bluff]

but anyways enough legacy talk, evrima balancing

[fresh laurel]

lmao im glad that rex might bleed out after a giga fight thanks to new bleed it would help reduce the fights and make them only if one party is desperate....

[rancid bluff]

I really don't like the new giga design, especially compared to the old one

[hollow canyon]

Evrima balancing is basically - buff Pachy, nerf Carno's bleed on bite, fix Carno's bite socket, decrease Tenonto's tailslam cost and... that's it pretty much

[sinful cove]

yeah the fact that you can still die while sitting makes some people think twice before playing like a deathmatch

some people like... people with 1% impulse control

the rest of them end up on balance feedback complaining about the consequences of fights that they had control of

[rancid bluff]

a good giga in legacy could bleed out a rex without dying if it was smart, but for whatever reason most giga players run into the rex face first instead of fighting cautiously

I remember I once managed to win against a rex by tricking him into wagging his tail at me

[sinful cove]

gigas in legacy so used to roflstomping every other animal including sandbox animals that they go pikachu face when a rex kills them in a brawl

[rancid bluff]

"I can basically 2 shot the entire roster, what different will this guy, who is my size, be?"

"it'll be just like fighting a trike"

[sinful cove]

"i have basically a 100% win chance against camara, a big advantage over trike, a 50/50 against shant and spino, but this ONE animal has an advantage over me???? ABSURD!!!! DONDI!!!!!!1!!!

[hasty coyote]

the issue is thats the opposite of what they did last time, and that didnt work out so well. prob buff herbies, then see if carno needs nerfs

[rancid bluff]

stego mains when they can't face tank a deino by biting it

[fresh laurel]

same ngl

[hollow canyon]

this is one thing that needs to get fixed, it shouldn't be a difficult fix and I expect it will get sorted out in the next update, then I'd also decrease Carno's bleed ratio on the bite down from 1.0 to 0.7(I'd maybe even go down to 0.5 but I don't want to do that big of a change in one go)

[fresh laurel]

giga stomps spino wdym

[sinful cove]

oh yeah ive noticed that

[hollow canyon]

it's irrelevant what they do, Tenonto doesn't need buffs in itself, Pachy does

[sinful cove]

amazing how they made tenonto's kick hitbox seemingly smaller than its animation, but carno can bite a whole yard in front of it

[hollow canyon]

basically the way it works is - Carno can extend the hitbox based on how you angle the camera

[fresh laurel]

explains me taking body hits instead of tail from carno

[fresh laurel]

Pov rex momento

[hollow canyon]

it's borderline completely random what gets hit

[sinful cove]

a bit like the rex doublebite exploit in legacy with a different affect

[hollow canyon]

In general Tenonto is alright the way it is right now

[rancid bluff]

he did 3 bites without changing the angle of his head, meaning the hitbox isn't even consistent

[hollow canyon]

I think the animal is in the best spot balance wise it has ever been, the only issue I have with it

[fresh laurel]

giga would probably be played less than rex even though giga is a more viable hunter... ooof

[hollow canyon]

he was moving forward

[hasty coyote]

tent just needs its kick hitbox fixed, and its tail slam stam cost lowered

[rancid bluff]

yeah just saw that

[hollow canyon]

I've been playing Tenonto a tonne and I haven't seen a single issue with the kick hitbox

[rancid bluff]

what's utah's hitbox though?

[hollow canyon]

the only thing that Tenonto should get a change in is the stamina cost on the tailslam

[fresh laurel]

i tested out utah tail hitbox and its bigger than the model soo...

[hollow canyon]

currently this attack is just way too niche

because of that high stam cost

[hasty coyote]

honestly havent played it much (at all) but i just hear thats a common issue

[rancid bluff]

I meant how far utahs bite can reach, but that's also good to know

[hollow canyon]

there's some 3-5 scenarios where you'd want to use the tailslam but

[sinful cove]

ive been shin deep in a carnos chest without a hit registering

[hasty coyote]

but pachy definitely needs buffs

[rancid bluff]

I can't even play evrima since GeForce isn't supporting betas

[hollow canyon]

the stam cost kind of makes it not worth using at times?

LIke I will use it against Carno that's disengaging from me

or to keep it in place

but only if I'm above half stam

if you're below half stam just forget that this attack exists

and just to be clear

it's not that Tenonto needs this to be viable

it is very much viable atm

it's just that this attack is the worst one atm

[hasty coyote]

all i know is that pachy, hypsi, and dryo need some love

[hollow canyon]

having its stam cost decreased would let Tenonto use all of its attacks in a fight

Dryo and Hypsi are irrelevant

[hasty coyote]

exactly

[hollow canyon]

Pachy needs help

I'd increase the blunt damage on its ram attack

and revert that godawful turn rate nerf

at least partially

[hasty coyote]

you can see what i want from it in the balance feedback

[hollow canyon]

Yea, I've seen it, Idk if I agree with everything you've written there but the part about it needing 2 rams to fracture a Carno is

it's basicallly caused by the fact that

if you ram the body with a fully charged ram

you won't fracture Carno

if you hit the leg or the head - you will fracture it

[hasty coyote]

the first 3 are the main ones I want, the rest are if pachy does still need some help

[hollow canyon]

but since it's much easier to land a body hit than a leg or head hit

Pachy typically doesn't fracture Carno with that fully charged hit

I'd probably try to increase the blunt damage of Pachy

blunt damage is basically what causes fractures

[hasty coyote]

dude, i have rammed people head on, breaks ribs, hit them in the leg, breaks ribs, and bash them in the ribs, breaks legs

[hollow canyon]

just to clarify

[sinful cove]

The Isle

[hasty coyote]

thats basically what i meant by giving it "guaranteed fractures"

[hollow canyon]

and if you ram them at point blank you won't do anything at all

Wave will now tell me why increasing the blunt damage is a bad idea probably

[hasty coyote]

allow us to cripple stegos

[hollow canyon]

Nah, I think that there are some legitimate concerns as to what increasing that stat could do

e.g. I suspect that it would cause even light taps to do more fracture

so you could break Utahs with a light tap without charging the attack most likely

that's what I suspect, stuff like this basically

[hasty coyote]

they can just make it charge to a greater limit but start the same

[hasty coyote]

plus you can already do that sometimes

i have seen pachies tap each other and break ribs

[hollow canyon]

In general I'd argue that just in terms of stats the game is pretty well balanced atm but pachy...

what is an issue is how those stats are... spread across the board so to say

[fresh laurel]

Nerf Utah

[hollow canyon]

e.g. 1 Teno vs 1 Carno right now works as it should - Tenonto has the advantage in that fight(if controlled by a human being with an intact frontal cortex) but the problem is that Carnos get to just pile up into a mob of 5-10 and roll around the map in an enormous pack like that

Utah vs Pachy felt good from my Utah-based perspective too

[fresh laurel]

They should really nerf utah

[hasty coyote]

also, carnivores that get an ambush first attack almost always win

[hollow canyon]

Utahs can take down a Carno in a pack of 3-4 if the pounce doesn't screw them over

[fresh laurel]

nerf utah breeeeeeeh

[hasty coyote]

i managed to 1v3 as a pachy, granted they missed 4 pounces, only hit 1, and i used terrain. i still almost died if the last one decided to come back and fight before i healed

[hollow canyon]

Utah vs Pachy - sure, Deino vs Stego - not at all, Teno vs Carno... Idk I honestly haven't been ambushed by a Carno yet but I'm quite confident I could still beat it

[fresh laurel]

if carno lands ram on teno then fight is decided lol

[hollow canyon]

#doubt

[hasty coyote]

that just stego tho, deino has such a massive advantage over anything smaller than it, so it should lose harder to win against stego

[fresh laurel]

anyone got a test isle server? I wanna test some matchups rq

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto can even take a charge on intentionally and win the fight

[hasty coyote]

carno ram+ bites=1-shot pachy, so id assume about half a teno's hp

[hollow canyon]

it's just about how you take it

[hollow canyon]

Pachy has less than 1/3rd of Tenonto's hp just fyi

[fresh laurel]

anyone here have a test server?

i really wanna test some match ups rq

[hollow canyon]

Unfortunately not one where I'd be an admin

[fresh laurel]

rip

[hollow canyon]

In general it depends on how the Carno lands that charge

[hasty coyote]

i play on a server that gives grows every 2 hours, but they just did one

[hollow canyon]

if it hits my head... yea I could probably lose that

if it hit my body Idk, I think I could still win that although depends on how good Carno is

if it hit my tail - it's either irrelevant or Carno just put itself at a big disadvantage

[hasty coyote]

teno v carno is skill based, which is good

[hollow canyon]

yea, imo it's the best match up in the game again

as long as it's 1v1

[hasty coyote]

i personally like pachy v carno, its just that they are too far apart atm

last update was fun, but pachy could duel a carno to death if they broke a leg

[keen plover]

I wouldn’t risk fighting a Carno this patch since if you don’t get the head fracture. You ain’t winning. Even then, you’re still at risk if they got hits off earlier. You’d better just run if you can get the fractures off

[rancid bluff]

can you sniff with a head fracture?

[dusky surge]

yes

fucks up your vision and damage tho

[spare badger]

Definitely the most reliable way to deal with carno
Granted it's also the most difficult to land cause that's were the bites come from

[dusky surge]

honestly, i find all fractures are good

slower carno = good
carno which drains through its entire pathetic stampool in literally zero time = good
carno which has trouble following and damaging you = good

[hasty coyote]

the breaks are good, its just that escaping afterwards is still hard. you're generally low on stam by the time you do get a break, so you have to find cover fast. then the tracking makes it catch up to you very quickly

[hollow canyon]

agreed, it's just how much effort Pachy has to first put into breaking the bones of Carno that might be the issue I think

[carmine patrol]

how do you grow that quick?
It takes 30mins just to get from SE to NW so it takes 2h15 mins MINIMUM and that's if you get the diets right away, also pachy does take 2h because teno has great diet once it spawns unlike pachy which has to travel a lot to get great diet

[hollow canyon]

it takes me less than 30 minutes

I think the least I ever took was slightly below 20 minutes

but typically it takes around 20

I don't play Pachy so can't comment on it

Teno is the only herbivore I play on the current patch

in general I'm growing a Teno right now and I would've timed it in normal circumstances but I'm doing some experiments so this will probably be the slowest growth I've had so far

almost certainly the slowest growth yet based on what I can see

so I didn't time it per se but my nutrients went down by ~26% by the time I got to the swamp from the north-west grasslands

and this was with me being afk a tonne during the trip

[carmine patrol]

same lol

[carmine patrol]

The first thing I grew on this patch was pachy and it took me 1hr 53mins to grow

[hollow canyon]

damn, that's a long time

Teno is probably relatively easier to grow

[carmine patrol]

yes

[hollow canyon]

the trip took me ~20 minutes I think?

and this is with me server hopping all the time

which just extends the whole process by a lot

[carmine patrol]

you took the short dangerous way?

through center?

[hollow canyon]

kind of yea

I normally dont do that but

I wanted to test something and wanted to just make it across the map fast

[carmine patrol]

I see

I usually take the long but safe way

[hollow canyon]

I typically take a longer way than this one but

the fact that I'm server hopping probably adds more time than the fact that I took the shortcut

[carmine patrol]

so 15 mins without hopping?

that's not so bad tbh

[hollow canyon]

I have no idea how much server hopping added tbh

I will time it at some point when I'm playing normally

because this attempt now

while switching between two servers to grow 2 animals at once is just kind of

it distorts the results by a lot

[carmine patrol]

you should do it without hopping

[hollow canyon]

I mean yea but

I didn't mean to test it now

I just kind of spitballed those numbers because you asked about it exactly as I was growing a Tenonto

it was a coincidence

and what I actually wanted to test is how viable growing 2 animals on 2 different servers is at once

[carmine patrol]

so you like teno on this patch huh?

[hollow canyon]

yea

[carmine patrol]

what do you play most on the carni side?

[hollow canyon]

Carno I think

although i play a bit of Deino lately too

alright, I'm sorted now got both Deino and Tenonto set up

now all that's left is to jump between them every 5 minutes to have them both growing simultaneously

[carmine patrol]

I think that even tho carnis get perfect diet way easier herbis can keep a perfect diet easily once you have it

[hollow canyon]

yea, that's true

[carmine patrol]

one time I had a teno that survived for so long it had:
300% radish
278% potato
and 283% mt ash

[hollow canyon]

in general maintaining herbivores is easier it's just that they are painful to grow because of how diets work

[carmine patrol]

yep

the hard thing about maintaining a perfect diet is not getting killed by carnis in the process

[spare badger]

If they gived herbis the 'no diet as juvenile' it would fix the problem but that's lazy and makes growth free

[dusky surge]

it's bad enough on carnis

[carmine patrol]

btw Wave, you said that deino will have the second strongest bite in the game right?

[dusky surge]

never said it as fact

[carmine patrol]

so it was just your opinion/belief?

[dusky surge]

yes, i always phrased it as such

[carmine patrol]

hmm Interesting, so deino's bite is not getting a buff in the future?

[dusky surge]

not that we know of

[carmine patrol]

deino is kinda underpowered ngl

[dusky surge]

not in the current ecosystem

[carmine patrol]

ye, but if it stays this way it will be one of the weakest if not the weakest apex carni in the game

[dusky surge]

it's probably safe to assume it won't stay this way if it means it'll be super weak lmao

[carmine patrol]

how do you think deino vs spino will go?

if deino is the better swimmer then I think it shouldn't beat spino on land

[dusky surge]

deino is probably the better swimmer and the worst terrestrial

[carmine patrol]

so deino loses to all apexes/sub-apexes on land?

[dusky surge]

when did i ever say that

[carmine patrol]

you never did, but that just came up to me once you said it's the worst terrestrial

[dusky surge]

it's a giant gator, it's not going to be better on land than most apex animals lmao

it doesn't mean it loses

[carmine patrol]

it also gets bodied by stego which is a sub-apex

[dusky surge]

no, it's an apex

[carmine patrol]

isn't apex range 7tons+?

[dusky surge]

apex range doesn't just mean weight

[carmine patrol]

what are the factors then?
I'm pretty sure weight is the biggest factor

[dusky surge]

weight, combat capability, environment, etc

[carmine patrol]

environment?

[golden coral]

Deino is the apex in the rivers?

[dusky surge]

yes

[carmine patrol]

what about spino?

[golden coral]

Spino is more land, or at least far more land capable

[dusky surge]

Spino is more land-capable than deino

[carmine patrol]

swamp apex?

[golden coral]

Have you seen our spino, it's a JP3 one, it's not really "water"designed

So it's more like a, defensive land critter that can and do use water, but most likely is not as capable in the water as the deino

I mean, spino has been said to fight off rex, not neccesarily kill it, but be capable of just keeping it at bay. I doubt deino on land can do the same vs a rex.

[dusky surge]

yea but like

its a deino, on land. Of course it'll have a rough time

[golden coral]

Well yes. You're a deino, you're not designed to "fight" stuff in the first place really, much less some of the largest and most dangerous land critters on land.

[slim dragon]

iirc Dondi said that deino's best choice when it sees a spino would be to swim away

[golden coral]

And if it would have to swim from a spino, I can't see it do better on land vs any of them honestly

[carmine patrol]

I want beipi to destroy troodons

it should have the highest bleed and damage of all small teirs

15N for bite, 40N for claw swipe will be good for beipi

along with a decent speed on land and in water

[slim dragon]

15N seems very high
Beipi is small and doesn't look like it would have a strong bite

[carmine patrol]

it deserves a stronger bite than dryo

[slim dragon]

I don't think so

[carmine patrol]

it's also an omnivore so it needs a good bite for it's size

[slim dragon]

It will probably be mostly eating frogs, fishes and crabs
It doesn't need a strong bite for that

And if it ever needs to hunt, it has claws

[carmine patrol]

it needs good grip to catch slippery fish/frogs

[slim dragon]

That has nothing to do with bite damage and isn't even a mechanic in-game

[carmine patrol]

cmon, dryo has a peck and it doesn't even have a sharp beak

beipi has a sharp beak and teeth

[slim dragon]

wdym beipi doesn't have teeth

[carmine patrol]

it does

[slim dragon]

It has quite the beak still, and it's its only mean of defense
Also dryo is 125 kg, if its damage was lower it would be ridiculous

I don't see a lot of teeth in there

Oh yeah tiny ones

[carmine patrol]

yep

[slim dragon]

But that beak isn't very sharp either

[carmine patrol]

sharper than dryos flat beak

I can't imagine beipi with a weaker bite than dryo

[slim dragon]

It's not just a matter of being sharp
Dryo's beak looks like it's made for crushing, it make sense that it has a decent bite
But anyway dryo is not the question here
Beipi has giant claws, it surely doesn't need a strong bite

And it's smaller than dryo

[golden coral]

@sonic needleBiteforce in game is just damage, it does not relate to any IRL biteforce value and should not be "compared" like that.

[carmine patrol]

so what?
It's only 2x smaller, utah is 10x smaller than stego but has a stronger bite

[golden coral]

... Yes but a utah is also designed to go nom, a stego, not so much :p

[sonic needle]

but why shouldnt it be compared like that. Its just realistic to take real facts. But i also sayd that its ONLY a game. And i didnt say anything about putting that in the Game or something i only sayd it to prove a fact

[carmine patrol]

that's the point, beipi should have a stronger bite than dryo cus it's designed to bite while dryo isn't

[golden coral]

I just meant that the "newton" ingame should be read just as "damage", not as actual newton irl for value.

[slim dragon]

Biteforce in the game is not calculated in Newtons. It's not even actual biteforce. It's just bite damage, which is a value used only for game purposes. Realism has nothing to do in here.

[sonic needle]

mmm i dont think that Beipi is designed to bite i mean with his size what damage can he do besides killing Bugs mabey. I mean even for his Size his claws are big but still not that dangerous

[slim dragon]

Where did you see that beipi is designed to bite ?

[sonic needle]

ah ok

[golden coral]

Deino does not have 500"Newton", it just has 500 damage.

Is what we meant, so you shouldn't "compare" that to irl, they just called it N for.. some reason ingame :p

[carmine patrol]

what I mean is that beipi is more designed to bite than dryo

[slim dragon]

They're the same imo

[golden coral]

Yeah that's fair, though I do think there is a point since it has nice claws primarily and might not need to bite much. But I don't mind if it can bite like dryo or slightly better even.

[carmine patrol]

nope, dryo only eats plant's while beipi eats fish

[sonic needle]

in his Picture that thing doesnt have any Teeth and doesnt look like a carnivore at all. I mean that thing has claws that it can use why de hell would he use its mouth to bite a little bit

[slim dragon]

I already said, it doesn't need a strong bite for that

[carmine patrol]

beipi will surely use claws more but it's bite still deserves a bite that is atleast as strong or slightly stronger than dryo

[sonic needle]

i only see Beipi using his Claws for defending but also can use his Bite but i think that its not important if its bite is a bit stronger or weaker then the Dryos

[carmine patrol]

ptera is as heavy as beipi but has a stronger bite than dryo even tho it eat's fish

[sonic needle]

I mean i dont see Beipi rly being aggressive or something but i gotta be honest that thing could mabey kill Babys with his Claws but would only scratch Adults like Carno or Teno, Stego and Deino wouldnt even feel it

[sonic needle]

yeah because its formed like a spear i dont rly thing that PTera is biting hes rather raming his beek into something. Hes biting when catching Fish yeah

think*

[carmine patrol]

yep, but I want it to have a better bite than dryo primarily to fight troodon

[sonic needle]

ok but that thing has Claws that can be used to defend themselfs why would you Bite if you have sharp claws. It can Bite yeah but there wouldnt be much difference

[carmine patrol]

claw then bite= dead troodon

[sonic needle]

or claw and claw again and the same will happen LUL

[carmine patrol]

ye but if claw cost's stam, why waste an extra 2-5% stam?

[sonic needle]

I mean it wouldnt make a big difference if Beipis Biteforce would be a bit higher or lower

[carmine patrol]

still, a bite that's less than 10N for beipi is unacceptable

[sonic needle]

I mean a Trike or something like that wouldnt Bite it would use his Hornes and not his Bite but ok everybody plays different

[golden coral]

Trike would probably bite, they apparently got a nasty bite as it turns out :p

[sonic needle]

how much N should Beipi have 15? 20 ? still makes almost no damage LUL

[sonic needle]

true i heard about that because of the beek they have it could snatch limbs in two

[carmine patrol]

why tho?
imagine a stego using it's thagomizer to kill a juvie utah

[carmine patrol]

yep

did you see how sharp that thing is?

[carmine patrol]

10-15N is good for beipi bite, 30-40N for claws

[sonic needle]

yeah But still even if Beipi has a Biteforce of 20. I mean there isnt rly a Big difference between 10N and 20N

[dusky surge]

there's a 2x difference lmao

[carmine patrol]

would still make a difference against small tiers, if it does 20 then it's 3 shots to kill troodon, but 10 would 5 shot troodon

[sonic needle]

there is still a difference yes ofc but not that BIG, not much. I mean if you have somthing with 150N and 300N yeah ofc the Difference is way bigger

[sonic needle]

true

[carmine patrol]

so it does make a big difference

you don't want beipi to 3 shot a troodon

[sonic needle]

But only against other Small tiers so mabey Babys or Troodon there isnt much more small tier 😄

[thin mantle]

If beipi has to 3 shot a troodon..... oh boy

[carmine patrol]

yea true, but it's the only competition it will have, I doubt that we're gonna see a beipi fighting a deino

[sonic needle]

In my Opinion adding Beipi is nice yeah but it has no meaning there isnt a reason behind it. Or at least i dont know a reason why that Dino should be in the Game. I wouldnt even notice if its in the Game or not

[thin mantle]

If added rn, it'd be aquatic dryo. No matchups and no dynamics aside from just... not existing according to everyone else

[carmine patrol]

prob 2 shot if you use claw+bite

[sonic needle]

i gotta be honest i didnt even know what a Beipi is 😄

[thin mantle]

It better 2 shot bare minimum, beipi is supposed to be defensively capable against austro of all things, troodon wouldn't be able to tank it

[sonic needle]

I think that Beipi is like the Terizinosaurus but way smaller

and Theri was scary and a dangerous enemy

[thin mantle]

Well, it's basically a low tier penguin theri crossbreed

Think of it that way, one of my personal favorites

But rn, it'd just kinda exist

[carmine patrol]

austro is 7 times heavier, all beipi could do is swim away

[thin mantle]

Weight doesn't decide matchups necessarily, Beipi's own concept art shows it defending against an austro, it'll have incredibly high damage for it's size

[carmine patrol]

maybe

[thin mantle]

sorry, austros art shows beipi fighting an austro

[carmine patrol]

I'd give beipi 40N claws with VERY high bleed

[thin mantle]

If a pair of utahs can take down a stego, a beipi can defend against an austro

[thin mantle]

40 is pathetic, needs more, there's literally no need for it to be so low

[carmine patrol]

austro will also probably have a 40N bite

[thin mantle]

Beipi should be dealing more damage than austro....

[carmine patrol]

it's true, but beipi one tapping troodon is unbalanced

[thin mantle]

why

what's wrong with that, troodon is a horde hunter that takes on targets significantly larger than itself, why does it need to have a reasonable matchup with beipi

[carmine patrol]

tbh I can't argue with that

[thin mantle]

xD

Sometimes the power of a dino isn't dictated by size

[carmine patrol]

I was trying to come up with something but I end up deleting whatever I typed XD

[thin mantle]

Lmao, I do that a lot sometimes, I'm a proud debater but having the self awareness to agree with your opposition is a really valuable quality

Most on this discord wouldn't do that :l

[sonic needle]

where did you see that?

[thin mantle]

Austros concept art

[sonic needle]

ooooohh never noticed the fight :;D

[thin mantle]

Yeah it's easy to miss

[carmine patrol]

that austo is a juvi

look at it compared to troodon

[thin mantle]

But yeah Beipi doing way more damage than is common for it's size is almost it's entire purpose, it's slow on land, prolly slower than deino in water. Making attackers rethink their options seems like a fun time at that size, since it's so uncommon

[thin mantle]

Oh shit you're right

Beipi's in an even better spot than I thought

I honestly can't wait to play as it, I just think it's being added at the wrong time, most of the animals it has a dynamic with don't exist yet

Bary, Austro, Minmi....

Can't really interact with Deino

[carmine patrol]

now I can say that beipi shouldn't one shot troodon

[thin mantle]

Why's that?

Now it's even more justifiable that it should

[carmine patrol]

how?

[sonic needle]

Beipi is gonna be a little snack for Deino 😄

[thin mantle]

Because it's large enough to warrant greater attack values

Plus, the beipi troodon matchup just straight up doesn't need to exist

[carmine patrol]

how is that?
It's the same size as troodon

[thin mantle]

It's much larger

hold up

[carmine patrol]

no it's not

[dusky surge]

i dont think beipi should one-shot troodon

[thin mantle]

Why not?

[dusky surge]

however, its claw swipes should be fast and painful

[thin mantle]

What bisuness does troodon have messing with beipi

[dusky surge]

essentially, 2-3 claws = death, and claws should be REAL fast

[thin mantle]

That's fair

[dusky surge]

the only reason i say this is i think the concept of beipi one-tapping troo to look ridiculous

that's all

[carmine patrol]

so did you check how small beipi is?

[thin mantle]

Nope

Not really

I did check but no conclusive results

Tbf Beipi is only barely shorter than a teno

[carmine patrol]

I'm 100% sure that they're around the same size

[dusky surge]

beipi is mostly feathers tho

[thin mantle]

Right, but that doesn't render it as light as troodon

[carmine patrol]

ye, which is why it may look bigger

[thin mantle]

Troodon is like... high juvi utah size

[carmine patrol]

troodon weighs 45Kg
I'm not sure about beipi but it's less than 60KG

[dusky surge]

beipi is almost 2.5x that of a troo. Troo prob gets clapped, or beipi escapes in the water ez

[thin mantle]

Less than 60kg?! nah

[dusky surge]

it's listed at 95kg

[carmine patrol]

hmm

[thin mantle]

If it's got a stupid fast attack rate and 3 shots I'm pretty alright with that

[carmine patrol]

heavier than ptera?

[dusky surge]

well.. yes

ptera FLIES. Of course it'd be stupid lightweight

[thin mantle]

That makes perfect sense.... ptera is made of cardboard and rapping paper

[carmine patrol]

it should do 1 claw+1 bite and troo should die

[thin mantle]

I mean... it's mostly arbitrary regardless, troodon shouldn't be even trying to fight a beipi in the first place unless it's just a god troodon that somehow has I phrames

[dusky surge]

why would it bite

[thin mantle]

Why would a beipi bite at all

[dusky surge]

you have GIANT CLAWS

[thin mantle]

It's got two big ass arms with absurdly massive claws

[carmine patrol]

ye, but that's like asking "why would stego use bite to finish off a juvie carno"?

[dusky surge]

true

biting juvis as stego IS funny

[thin mantle]

Well... what is so small that beipi is justified in biting it out of convenience

although it is hilarious

[slim dragon]

compy

[deft blaze]

Compy is just funny to kill

[thin mantle]

Juvi compy..... that will definitely exist

But yes

[dusky surge]

compy is extremely funny

[carmine patrol]

why waste stam to finish off the troodon while you can just use bite to finish troo off?

[deft blaze]

Especially to kill

[dusky surge]

because the claws could probably have better damage, range and speed

[carmine patrol]

so use claw to get troo low, then bite to finish it off

[thin mantle]

Or just claw twice... with your machinegun attack speed

[dusky surge]

its probably not gonna cost that much stam to just swipe it again

it's not a tailslam

[thin mantle]

Can't imagine it would

[carmine patrol]

tbh I don't understand why we are arguing about this XD

[thin mantle]

what fight is gonna be decided by baiting beipi swings

like why would claw swipes cost stam at all

[carmine patrol]

it prob will like all alt attacks

[thin mantle]

Why would it be an alt attack

[carmine patrol]

it's defo gonna be directional so it will prob cost like 2% stam

[carmine patrol]

what else would it be?

[thin mantle]

RMB

Or just... lmb

It's like bite having no stam cost but alt biting does

[dusky surge]

nah, LMB would probs be peck lmao

[carmine patrol]

would still cost stam, no RMB attack doesn't cost stam

[thin mantle]

That's not a design standard, that's a trend

[carmine patrol]

true, but Alt+LMB should be a directional claw swipe

[dusky surge]

also i wouldn't be too mad if RMB was a claw-swipe machine-gun esque attack with minor stam drain

[carmine patrol]

lovely

[dusky surge]

LMB is basic peck/bite

[thin mantle]

Still can't see the point in the stam drain, like the attack concept but the cost is arbitrary

[carmine patrol]

would beipi peck or bite, personally I'd prefer it to be a bite

[dusky surge]

why?

i don't see what's so wrong with it

[carmine patrol]

so that you don't spam it too much

[thin mantle]

Nothing is really wrong with it, it just has essentially no reason to exist

[thin mantle]

Well yeah but then this should also apply to bite attacks

[carmine patrol]

and get punished if you miss too many of them

[thin mantle]

How can you possibly punish a beipi for missing it's swings, it'll just leave

[carmine patrol]

losing stam

just like a pachy missing it's charge

[thin mantle]

Again, that is essentially pointless when the beipi can just swim away

[thin mantle]

Pachy doesn't have a state of immunity like beipi does, no land predators can follow it underwater, or at least none that beipi would even be fighting on land in the first place

The only predators that could actually chase beipi down in water (potentially) is deino and bary, beipi isn't fighting either of those

[carmine patrol]

austro too

[quasi grove]

And anything hungry enough to jump into the water to try to snipe it
Tiny ~50kg boi gets 1 shot by some of the larger jumping things

[carmine patrol]

95Kg

[thin mantle]

Can't imagine austro catching up to a swimming beipi

[quasi grove]

Austros probably gonna be around the same speed
Depends on which terrain it prefers mobility wise

[carmine patrol]

why not?
It's more streamlined than bary

prob gonna be a better swimmer

[thin mantle]

95, but that's irrelevant because why would beipi be defending from any of the animals that it can be sniped by

[quasi grove]

Arguing that the water isnt a "state of immunity" for non-apexes

[thin mantle]

Can't imagine austro being a better swimmer than it is a runner, beipi is the opposite

[thin mantle]

It's a state of immunity from anything that beipi would actually be fighting on land specifically. Not that beipi is immune to harm

[quasi grove]

Hard to know
Concept art shows it being good at both

[thin mantle]

Yes, but regardless, beipi being slower than austro underwater is silly from a balance perspective

[quasi grove]

It being slower no
But Austro being more of a threat speed wise than Bary makes more sense

And then theres Deino being turbo

[thin mantle]

Sure

That makes sense

[quasi grove]

Baby Deinos are gonna be the bane of Bepi I feel
Cause the baby stam allows them to chase after you on land, and they'll prob get decent food from you to give them more incentive

[thin mantle]

Still doesn't effect the original point tbh, you can't punish a beipi for running low on stam from using claw attacks on land, since nothing it would be fighting on land can follow it underwater. Not that this is an issue, moreso a reason why beipi's primary attack draining it's stam being pointless

[thin mantle]

Yeah not sure how that's even gonna work unless beipi is much faster than it, which i doubt

[quasi grove]

Mostly just a Bepi vs Bepi thing where baiting actually matters due to wanting to have more stam than the other cause the meta dps in the mirror match costs stam

[thin mantle]

Mhm, but even then I can't imagine that being much of a relevant occurance

[quasi grove]

Mirrors do need to be considered more overall
As most of the mirror matches are god awful borefests where it's a 1st hit wins facetank fest

[thin mantle]

or at least not enough of one to justify a stam drain for it's attacks

[thin mantle]

Sure I agree with that, just don't think it applies to beipi much

[quasi grove]

Ye

[thin mantle]

The most interesting interspecies fights rn are utah and teno, teno by far being the more interesting of the two

[quasi grove]

Agreed

[thin mantle]

carno is boring, stego is awful, hypsi and dryo are basically less interesting prolonged versions of utahs, and deinos is downright depressing. Aerial ptera fights are kinda neat tho

[quasi grove]

Is Pachy vs Pachy any interesting or no?
I was wondering how much the headbutt clash would play in, but I guess the new charge turn makes that more "ez facetank and win" in a sense

[thin mantle]

Not very, alt attacks are your best bet

The ram clash is only aesthetic, even with it's old turn I can't imagine it being interesting

Because all it does is get you both closer to eachother for the alt spam

It can sometimes be neat but it basically results in a 1 shot if either party had their's insufficiently charged.

So it boiled down to "pounce other utah and win"

[quasi grove]

Yeah that does kinda fall under the "land gimmick move once and win" kinda scuffed mirror matchup

[thin mantle]

Same with carno, if one side decides to leave, the other one just won't let it cuz charge

if it's landed the chasing carno wins

you can't tank with that initial damage

[white cove]

@sonic needle a counter could then be made that a hit from the thagomizer to any part of the deinos head should instakill it since the spikes would go into its brain

I respect that you understand your suggestion wouldn't be balanced, but it sounds like you're still semi pushing for deino being able to "rip off stego's head" because realism is necessary

[sonic needle]

Sure it goes both ways and ofc you cant add something that one hits everything in the head but Stegos are the ones "bullieng" Deinos and constantly Body Camp so something has to be done about that. But everything is more important to the DEvs then to add more Dinos to this Dino Game. IDK the Balancing is still kinda weird in this Game. I mean ofc its not nice as a Utah to die in one Bite from a Deino but it makes sence and it would be weird if it wasnt like it. More Apex Predators have to be added for sure

[thin mantle]

If a stego even has the chance to bodygaurd a deino then the deino seriously messed up.... in what situation does a deino make a kill that it can't pick up or is not in the water

[white cove]

yeah, can't deinos carry any body except stego bodys?

[thin mantle]

Yep

[sonic needle]

no i mean in general Body camping. Camping every body not only deino

[thin mantle]

That's only a problem for carnos

[white cove]

and deino bodies mb

[thin mantle]

And we can't stop them

[sonic needle]

yeah when 3 Stegos are on top of a Body have fun going there and picking it up

[white cove]

I mean, I'd much rather the slow herbivore camp bodies than an apex carnivore tbh

[thin mantle]

That's true, but those always die on the shore or in water, deinos can access them even if stego is gaurding

[white cove]

seems like the lesser of 2 evils

[thin mantle]

This is an unavoidable state of the game, we can't debuff herbis near bodies

We just can't, so many things would collapse if that were to happen

[white cove]

yeah, definitely too abusable

[thin mantle]

juvi ptera kamikaze's into nesting grounds xD

Everyone leaves out of pure terror

[sonic needle]

why that? i mean if a Herbivore is on top of a Dead Body or for to long near it it could get a little debuff like stamina or something idk

[thin mantle]

Why

[sonic needle]

ok that is a good point yeah

[thin mantle]

Plus prolonged fights often involve multiple deaths

It'd be a borderline strat to keep the herbi prey animal near a dead comrade to debuff them

actually no, that would absolutely happen

[white cove]

That said, I can imagine that herbivore body camping could become a bigger issue once gore/rotting meat comes into affect

[thin mantle]

Plus, being denied access to a resource you want because a stronger animal is near it is always going to be something that happens, trike will do it to allo, rex will do it to... everything.... shant will do it to giga

[white cove]

a slight compromise I could see is maybe using dead bodies/blood to taint a small patch *(relative to the body size) of grass around the body so herbivores can't graze and camp indefinitely

[thin mantle]

Maybe, even then, it's a thing that happens and can't be avoided mechanically, one fix is not attacking a group too large to deal with so you can avoid the eventual body camp

[thin mantle]

That wouldn't really work, if the herbi is in eyeshot it will gaurd it

we can't coat mountains in blood when a utah dies

[white cove]

yeah, it's definitely a terrible solution but there's a good reason my name is not red

[thin mantle]

xD

Nah I liked your feedback, seems reasonable

So you aren't completely out of ideas

[white cove]

But I totally understand the frustration behind bodies being camped by herbivores, I just think that it's a lesser of two evils that the slow herbivore is camping and not a massive terrestial carnivore

[thin mantle]

Like heres the thing, utah can currently kill stegos pretty handily, deinos can in pairs and possibly alone if they play their cards right. Stego isn't immortal

[white cove]

add back pounce peeling !

[thin mantle]

Well tbf, the large terrestrial carni would eat the body

[thin mantle]

It was the only thing about pounce that made it somewhat interesting

[white cove]

https://tenor.com/view/chewing-1second-pulp-fiction-john-travolta-gif-15247400

[thin mantle]

Now it's just a free damage phase that you can only hold E to end faster

There are no actually counterplay options aside from holding a button or shoving the utah into a structure it can't dismount far from

[white cove]

I'm still not certain if it was an intended change? The U4 patch notes say "Made pounce not cause knockdown when hitting trees, logs, rocks, etc." and I can't tell if that was meant to be while pouncing or if jumping onto them no longer causes knockover

[thin mantle]

Tbh, I see a large terrestrial carni body guarding as the lesser of the two evils. At least the body is being eaten xD

[thin mantle]

Both I believe, really stupid change

[white cove]

because I remember you used to be able to pounce into trees and just fall over which was definitely a little silly

[thin mantle]

Yeah pouncing and hitting an object causing stun is dumb

[white cove]

Which is no longer the case

and I think the change was for that purpose

Haven't really heard a definite answer to that

[thin mantle]

I think the state of the game proves it meant both

[white cove]

Yeah, bummer

[thin mantle]

cuz a bug so extensive to only permit utah being forced to dismount via water or buck is way too specific to exist

[white cove]

It was a bit too punishing though

[thin mantle]

It was

[white cove]

so a definite middle ground between tree=death and free damage should probably exist

[thin mantle]

The knockdown shouldn't have the same uptime as utah awakening from slumber

[white cove]

I think tying it to speed could be a neat idea

[thin mantle]

Applying an actual dynamic to pounce would indeed be nice

[thin mantle]

Perhaps, but at that point it becomes useless to anything too large

[white cove]

like a walking stego hitting you into a tree makes you regular dismount, a sprinting carno knocks you tf out

[thin mantle]

Yeah that works

It shouldn't have a minimum effect of nothing tho

[white cove]

no. maybe just a brief stagger

[thin mantle]

If you aren't moving quickly the utah should still be forced off, you're still forcing it into an object

perhaps no stun at all, just a forced dismount

[white cove]

but it was definitely skill expressive from both parties, utahs actually having decide when and where to go for a pounce, not just whenever possible

[thin mantle]

Or even if a target was worth hunting at all, greatly rewards a players knowledge of the map

[white cove]

prey is in the forest? Alright, use your maneuverability to land good bites. In the open? Pounce go brr

now it's p much just pounce go brr except when it doesnt and you end up floating

[thin mantle]

basically... trees need to be rarer in plains tbh

[white cove]

agree

[thin mantle]

and in the case of stego: Pounce, win

Cuz stego can't attack after a dismount for about a second and a half

[white cove]

yeah that's probably not intended

[thin mantle]

It better not be

Cuz that's.... the most bullshit I think I've seen from evrima

[white cove]

wrong

[thin mantle]

so far

Oh?

[white cove]

the most bullshit part of evrima is and always will be that patch of jungle above ravine

where you can't see 1 foot in front of you and then your camera starts to go down and then you die

[thin mantle]

Ok...... that is fair...... but at least it's not/wasn't a consistent part of gameplay

[white cove]

riiight here

[thin mantle]

Utah soloing a stego consistently because the stego can't attack after a dismount I think exceeds this

[thin mantle]

That is admittedly quite bullshit

[white cove]

yeah, but idk if I'd call it consistent - most utahs run out of hunger before they manage to bleed you out tbh

and they still need to bait a swing to land a pounce

just running and pouncing still leavs enough time for a decent stego to swat you out of the air

unless the stego is always operating parallel to you then 🤷‍♂️

[thin mantle]

Tbf, you can pounce a stego by landing a pounce on it's tail or head.....

You don't need to land on the flank anymore

Why? Idk

[white cove]

head's risky because of current floating

[thin mantle]

Well this applies to all locations

[white cove]

tail lets stego jab quickly

[thin mantle]

All of stegos attacks allow a 30ish degree cone of safety directly in front of it, their attack range doesn't reach that far

[white cove]

it's really bad on the head because it happens when the hitbox isn't in contact with where you should be grappling, and the head of a stego moves quickest and is most likely to not be where you land

[thin mantle]

hmmm, I haven't noticed a consistency with floating tied to a location so far

[white cove]

^doesn't really make sense but im finding it hard to communicate

[thin mantle]

Ironically most of my floating happens when I do pounce the flank, but I think that's just random chance

[white cove]

Eh, we'll see what the devs decide

It doesnt seem like they want utahs to reliably kill adult stegos, but if they cement this change as well as the swinging bug then I guess I am wrong

[thin mantle]

Pounce really only needs 4 things, the punishment for knockdown needs reduction, rubbing must return, the attack lockout needs patching or removing, and pouncing a flank should be a requirement

[thin mantle]

I'd hope not, stego is unironically the second worst target for utahs to hunt in the entire isle roster excluding sauropods

[white cove]

I think missed pounces should be less punishing to utahs to compensate

conserve a bit of momentum

[thin mantle]

I'd disagree, it's the only window of punishment utah has that doesn't require you to first take bleed damage and further reinforces pounce viability against large slow targets over smaller fast ones

which is what pounce is designed for

Our perspective isn't aided by carno and stego being in game, which are two of the most effective counters to utah that can possibly be in this game

[white cove]

maybe taking a pounce from sprint puts you trot instead of stopping you altogether?

[thin mantle]

Well pounce's miss stun is only a second, it's really not that long

[white cove]

I agree with carno, but why* is stego supposed to be one of the most effective counters?

[thin mantle]

Yes.... biomechanically it's 1 of the 2 large herbivores that has flank oriented defenses, the other being anky. Utah pounces the flanks of it's targets, any animal with defenses oriented towards utahs point of entry is categorically a more difficult target than those who lack them.

[golden coral]

Pounce is a flanking tool, you want to end up on the nice open sides of the target. Stego, with anky and kentro, can protect said flanks extremely well.

[white cove]

gotcha

[golden coral]

Meanwhile, trike, rex, and especially the hadrosaurs, have a way harder time protecting their sides, thus making for much safer and easier targets, or should at least.

[thin mantle]

The problem is that the devs keep rebalancing pounce to be more and more effective against stegos, which only then makes it demonstrably stronger against anything without stego's faculties

[white cove]

At least it's not u2 levels of balance

https://tenor.com/view/neil-patrick-harris-shudder-shrug-disgusted-gif-13575156

[golden coral]

Just think of a shant, vs a trike, vs a stego, look at where you want to land the pounce, look at their respective weapons, and where/how those wepaons reach. At least that's how me and Fluff reason.

[thin mantle]

Fair... but the utah stego matchup is hardly one, landing a pounce is easy with stegos hitrange, especially if you're with a friend, and dismounting is free unless terrain makes it impossible

[golden coral]

Technically, stego would be the "quickest" fight, talking raw damage, being the "weakest" apex, but also the most difficult and dangerous one compared to a shant which would be the other way. Take massive time due to it's bulk, but being relatively "safe" and simple to attack.

[white cove]

I've not had much issues with utahs when I force them to fight in the woods, but as someone who plays a (at least I like to think so) decent utah the matchup is currently ezpz on the plains if you've got a buddy

[thin mantle]

In the current patch I've managed to solo 6 stegos as of last night, 2 where in the forest, 4 where in plains, 1 was in delta. The fact that I can say that at all shouldn't be proof of my skill, but proof of how busted the balance between them is.

[white cove]

but I guess the issue has been brought to light, if the devs choose not to fix it in the next patch then I assume it's fully intentional

[white cove]

oof

I mean: nerf stego because deinos can't 1v1 it

is the takeaway we all should have

[thin mantle]

LMAO

Yeah that's a whole different topic

TLDR: Deino 1 shots 80% of the roster, it lacking viability against stego in a 1v1 is no issue

[white cove]

muh realism

give deino 16000N bite force because crocodile

[thin mantle]

Let it 1 shot brachi cuz deino irl be stronk

[white cove]

I'm just saying, a deino should be able to rip off the head of a brachy while it's drinking

[thin mantle]

If that's really a community concern, I almost feel as tho downsizing deino to 4 tons would be a better fix than nerfing stego or buffing deino to have a relevant matchup

Cuz then nobody would logistically complain

[white cove]

oh yes they will

[thin mantle]

"A Cuviers Dwarf Caiman one shots stego realistically, deino should toooo"

[white cove]

stegos make me swim a tiny bit towards to center of the river because they are sitting there with their tails in the water

this blatant violation of our sovereign waters should not stand

it must not

[thin mantle]

I honestly wonder what goes on in the minds of those that concern themselves with "stego fishing"

Like... swim.... away

With your tail... that you have... for swimming

[white cove]

to give an inch of ground is to accept defeat

[thin mantle]

Maybe out effort into the opposite of suicide and find somewhere else to be

[thin mantle]

Deino canonically has the 1910s German Nationalist Grindset

[white cove]

yes.

[golden coral]

I just find the deino/stego thing funny because people make it out to be a stego issue, not a "I'm powerful enough to do this,-issue". Like okay, we can "nerf" stego, but what will you as deino do when trike or rex comes in? :p

[white cove]

[quasi grove]

What will Stego do when other competent land apexes show up

[thin mantle]

#balance-feedback-discussion message
We use the same brain, I've convinced

[thin mantle]

Nothing... die... cuz deino must solo

[white cove]

suffer

[quasi grove]

Its 2X headshot multiplier will get it melted unless its outdps'ing with the fast jab

[golden coral]

It's like they don't think there's going to be other critters doing the same thing, and better at that. Stego can't swing while swimming, meanwhile rex might get to bite, since that's a basic attack.

[quasi grove]

Assuming stuff like Rex and Giga do more damage than Deino
If they dont I'll be very sad

[thin mantle]

Or unless it's given a running attack with high bleed lower damage that has a tight cone of range behind it... although that's just one idea

[thin mantle]

Can't imagine why not, they almost have opposite niches to deino

[golden coral]

It'll have to be reworked or well, give up I think. And I'm not a fan of just adding more damage, or the quick jab. The latter remind me of legacy galli kick if anything.

[white cove]

It's my understanding that stego is supposed to be an apex through and through for the recode, so I'm sure something will happen for it

not tier 4.5, just 5

[quasi grove]

Stego probably shouldn't have a running attack
It's an AoE apex thats built for dealing with the smaller animal pack strats
It being worse off against things that punch up to it makes sense, but it shouldnt be to an unviable degree

[golden coral]

Even if it isn't an apex, it's hard to make it run from rex and giga, so it will probably have to stand it's ground. So the "title" means less than the actual ingame ability of it to escape by running.

[quasi grove]

Most it should get it trotting aggressive tail wag imo

[thin mantle]

It should have the capacity to die, but not so easily that simply seeing one and chasing it down renders it essentially dead in sight

[quasi grove]

If Stego is capable of outspending and escaping Giga and Rex
Giga and Rex is dogshit, Stegos speed and stam is okay for an apex but still trash

[white cove]

Up its bleed into the stratosphere and don't put it on rex's diet. If a rex decides it wants to kill stego because haha rex go brr then give it no diet bonus and leave it suffering for a while

[golden coral]

And yes, stego should be basically walking away while being a threat you can't just get past. However we're going to achieve that :p

[thin mantle]

Mhm, stego can't outrun either of them.... maybe rex... but that's a serious theoretical for rex that I don't honestly believe in

[quasi grove]

Rex should decide to kill it
It's a slow, barely armored and highly armed herbivore
That's right up its alley
And Gigas too cause no armor

[white cove]

I mean, by the time rex is around I imagine we'll have a whole schlew of other problems

[golden coral]

Probably xD

[quasi grove]

And I dont want to be the Stego who finds out how Spino can outrange it

[thin mantle]

Not particularly, stego kinda decimates everything else. Although perhaps not spino

[white cove]

guns

[golden coral]

Spino on the other hand can probably be made slow so

[thin mantle]

Oh don't get me started....

[golden coral]

Oh boy.. :p

[thin mantle]

I won't... I refuse

[white cove]

By the time they're ready to add rex we'll be begging for the days when stego being able to upset deino players was our foremost concern

[thin mantle]

https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-dont-test-me-wait-a-minute-han-solo-gif-15376591

[quasi grove]

Probably not Rex
Assuming Nova chart mass, Stegos 1250N tail swing would 8 shot on body hits, less on the head

[white cove]

it'll be fiiiiiine

[quasi grove]

Rex would only need a 750N attack to equal the facetank on body hits
And Stegos hits per second is only high with a specific jab angle

[white cove]

presently

I can't imagine stego will be in the same state by the time rex shows up, it may be better off it may be worse off

but the devs seem to care at least a little bit about balance so

[thin mantle]

I'd imagine it'd have a higher bite tbh, if only by virtue of rex being the most noticeable animal aside from the sauropods.

Not that I want it to but I doubt it'll be that low

[quasi grove]

It won't be the same definitely
But arguing for Stego to be weaker now so it can get killed by things it normally shouldn't unless massively outnumbered is dumb

Just try addressing herbi body guarding and megapacks/mixpacks

[thin mantle]

I'm glad the general consensus is starting to favor logic and reason... this take was spicy a few months back

[white cove]

this was spicy a few hours back lmao

it all depends on who's in the chat

[thin mantle]

It's been gaining traction over the last month or two

[quasi grove]

Mostly because most of the isle youtubers getting viewership recently have been begging for it

[white cove]

for stego to be gimped or ungimped?

[quasi grove]

Gimped

[thin mantle]

I can't even watch isle youtubers aside from a couple people, the degree of sensationalizing the game receives from the larger names just... bothers me

[quasi grove]

Stego still is gimped funnily enough
But its kit is literally built to fuck pack strats, over especially in groups
Like what's the thought process

[golden coral]

Stego AI :p

[thin mantle]

The answer to so many questions

[quasi grove]

Rex AI to extinct the Stego megaherds and Terminator everyone to death like the Boars wen

[thin mantle]

Rex AI to balance the Stego AI

While we just watch as our low tiers in horror

[golden coral]

When stego is so questionably designed that an AI rex probably would win the fight :p

[thin mantle]

When you're a sentient turret that doesn't know what the word "sweep" means...

[quasi grove]

With how the AI insta turns mostly
Especially if they know to go for headshots, which idk if it does yet

Or ever will

[thin mantle]

Ight gtg, if I don't sleep now I won't

[quasi grove]

The Aisle

[thin mantle]

Haven't observed it thus far

[elder steppe]

I got used to everyone saying nerf carno, where’s all this hubub about nerfing stego coming from

As long as you bait their tail swing( which is really easy to do) they run out of stam and it’s mostly easy pickings

[analog mirage]

Literally the only major problem with stego isn’t actually stego itself

It’s water not being deep (still) and body dragging being bad

Otherwise yeah just walk from it

[elder steppe]

Yeah they are arguably the most and least dangerous dino in the isle.

[dusky surge]

its dependent on how dumb their opponent is

if their opponent wants to throw themseleves at a stego, they die

if the opponent decides better, they dont

[elder steppe]

Thats why they are arguably the most and least dangerous dino lol. People usually are just walking corpses if they want to fight a stegi, but nobody has stego on their diet except deino i think.

[wintry anchor]

I’m pretty sure Utah has stego on their diet too

[elder steppe]

Yes

[bright cargo]

Very easy to not get clapped by a stego, swim away

[cold sedge]

They can’t do it. They get so mad that a stego would dare stick their tail in the water that they just have to keep lunging head first into the tail.

[sinful cove]

Dont ya know the rules of the isle?

Carnivore = has to attack everything it sees

Herbivore = it eats grass so it has to run away even though it is slower

[rapid flicker]

Current pachy gameplay also