balance-feedback-discussion

[azure crescent]

10 minutes is fine but 15 is a tad bit much imo

[alpine plover]

No, I can't be waiting 10 minutes on the shore of a river every time I want to drink

[azure crescent]

but you can move somewhere else

you're not locked to that specific spot you know

there's a few shallow zones where deinos cant get to you without revealing themselves

[alpine plover]

Yes like 3 only

[azure crescent]

yeah

plus crocs are known to hold their breath long

[alpine plover]

10 min is still too much

[azure crescent]

10 minutes is good enough to make deino better at its niche, but not too OP

[azure crescent]

have you played deino regularly

[hasty coyote]

I personally go to areas far away from most other people, that way it’s fair play to the crocs for waiting in the most random spot where no one is

[alpine plover]

Yes

[azure crescent]

and you feel like 5 mins is enough?

[alpine plover]

Yes

[azure crescent]

i am surprised

[alpine plover]

You can aleays go to the surface 20 m further from where you are waiting your pray, maybe increase oxygen intake speed in any case

[azure crescent]

and your prey can always go through land, the faster route, to a different river and drink there, where the original deino wasn't

[alpine plover]

Intake speed is what is a problem

[azure crescent]

i agree on that too but breath time is also a slight issue

maybe 7-8 minutes

[alpine plover]

Then why you care? If the prey will move anyway

[azure crescent]

i care because i have lost quite a few deinos to drowning when my internet failed

[azure crescent]

if you're aware of that, why do you complain about waiting 10 minutes when you can do just that

[alpine plover]

That is not a reason to increase it

[azure crescent]

and waiting 10 minutes for the deino to regain oxygen is not a good way to deal with it

[alpine plover]

So mnay pteras die of internet discconections

[azure crescent]

pteras grow really fast

[alpine plover]

I said buff that in any case, are you reading my messages?

[azure crescent]

deinos don't

[azure crescent]

where did you say that you wanted to buff the oxygen meter?

i may have worded it poorly

[alpine plover]

Oxygen intake speed here

[azure crescent]

yeah i worded it poorly, mb

what i meant was that as the prey item, waiting 10 minutes for the deino to surface to regain oxygen on the shore is not a good way to avoid getting killed by said deino

[alpine plover]

Does that really natter for the topic we are discussing?

[azure crescent]

yes???

[alpine plover]

No

[azure crescent]

we're talking about whether oxygen timer buff is an issue or not

[alpine plover]

I was trolling I don't do that

[azure crescent]

[alpine plover]

But like I said, buff oxygen regain in any case

To 15 seca

[azure crescent]

yeah i guess that's fair

2 second regen

[alpine plover]

I was being serious now

[wise sparrow]

No oxygen regen

You get 5 minutes through your entire life. You waste them? You drown every time you go in water

[alpine plover]

Yes

[azure crescent]

the most efficient option

is to

[wise sparrow]

Remove deino

[azure crescent]

make deinos drown when they come in contact with water

same thing

[alpine plover]

Delete evrima

Deino is a bad bad nevertheless

I'm keft alone

Again

I'm ok tho

[alpine plover]

@chrome quail you are the only one who thinks prepatch carno needed a nerf

@azure crescent just remove the turn speed buff

[chrome quail]

i just said in some areas not overall. killed plenty of carnos last patch i said for this one lol you mad

[alpine plover]

Then why you say the only nerf needed were for carno? Didn't make sense what you said

[chrome quail]

nerf the bite area cause it's not at all accurate but no way a buff i justified in carno

[alpine plover]

No one is asking for more carno buffs

[chrome quail]

well actually there was a lot and i'm sure you where in lol

but all reasons where :"MEEHHH DO MORE DAMAGE" and thats not a reason

[alpine plover]

I didnt asked for last buffs why would I ask for more?

[chrome quail]

the turn rate i would not mind cause it's understandable but the rest is just garbage

[alpine plover]

What rest?

The other buffs were acceleration buff, and is barely noticed the change

[chrome quail]

"barely" i feel the difference we where 5-6 utahs vs 2 carnos doable now you have to be the double to do something and thats quite sad. and don't forget that they change things and they don't tell us about it

[alpine plover]

What does acceleration change against utahs? Against utahs carno is better but because of the turn buff

[spare badger]

when you drift to a stop you get back to top speed very quickly which makes carno harder to juke

[alpine plover]

Well that is against utah, maybe nerf a little acceleration but make charge to be able to be made in a way is as fast as now

Cause I see your problem has nothing to do with charging being faster

[spare badger]

yea i was referring to the acceleration change, not the charge change

[alpine plover]

I know, I just means accerleration buff, affects charge and charged needed to be able to be used sooner like now

[half girder]

@vocal minnow they can lol

[vocal minnow]

you get knocked off

[half girder]

i dont lol

pounced a stego in it

utah bleed is fine, just needs other tweaks that make pounce work even better wiith a pack

people really want utah to 1v1 carno

[unborn iris]

Yeah yeah.. only got downvoted because people didn't understand you were requesting deino to be almost 1k bite force.

[fresh laurel]

2v1 minimum if utahs are good

Which even then is possible still

Carno acceleration buff needs to be reverted imo tho

[alpine plover]

No, charge takes to much to start prepatch, except you make charge speed requirements smalle they shouldn't revert carno acceleration, just nerf it to be between now's acc and prepatch acc

A fast dino can't have both bad stamina and bad acceleration

[half girder]

no

its turning yes

[fresh laurel]

The accel buff just makes it even easier for carno to drift and start running at full speed even faster

Makes juking it a whole lot harder

[alpine plover]

Yes, so nerf it, but make carno able to charge before reaching max speed

[fresh laurel]

Shouldnt carno be ambushing with ram?

[marsh lion]

How about don't nerf Carno again, revert the Pachy and Teno nerfs and fix Utah pounce

[fresh laurel]

For me pre patch i could land decent amount of rams by using bushes

[fresh laurel]

Yea that wouldnt help with how agile carno is rn

[alpine plover]

Yes and? Prepatch you needed to run from so far so you could charge them that they would see you and hear you from miles away

[fresh laurel]

Carno can is viable in forest now...

[marsh lion]

How?

[alpine plover]

That is because of drift and turn buff

[fresh laurel]

Better walk means it can track prey easier into forest

[alpine plover]

Better walk?

[elder steppe]

Walk turning i think

[fresh laurel]

You are suppose to use bushes to help but devs could make ram need a certain speed to use

[fresh laurel]

Turn radius

[stark knoll]

Ram requires you to be at max speed

[fresh laurel]

I know

[elder steppe]

Yeah i think that was the whole point of the acceleration buff, but i agree. Dont take the acceleration buff completely away, just tone the buff back 25-35%

[marsh lion]

I'm going off of what Salty's been saying

[fresh laurel]

Go off of what you played instead...

Like play both sides to see how it is

[marsh lion]

Well what I agreed with

[elder steppe]

Yeah, i dont want to say it because carno is one of my favorite dinos in game, i think the turning is fine but the buff to acceleration needs to be lessened a bit.

[fresh laurel]

And ngl teno i wouldnt consider a full blown carno prey but meh...

Teno is what i consider a more harder meal

Like a high risk big meal

[elder steppe]

True, i go up against carnos sometimes and they use the ram for chasing. I was going up against a cannibal roughly the same growth as me and it just kept chargin at me. Even after tight turns where it would have to stop charging, it accelerated to full speed in like 2-3 seconds. I would want the time to maybe be 4-5 second to reach full speed. And yeah tenos even though they got nerfed pretty bad, still make a good challenge vs 1 carno

[alpine plover]

But carno needs charge, and prepatch the distance between most bushes and herbis was so close you didnt had enought space to charge

I'm just saying, ok nerf acceleration, but also make carno able to charge only at 80% of max speed or similar

[fresh laurel]

Ok how about toning down accel buff to like 30% or 40% and revert the turning buffs or increase drift time by a second

Because i think letting ram not require full speed might be abused

[elder steppe]

I think nerf the acceleration by what you said, then see how it goes. Changing too many things at once is what got the whole balancing mess started

[fresh laurel]

Carno should mainly focus on eating anything smaller than it and worry about things nearing its size

[elder steppe]

Yeah that’s reasonable

[fresh laurel]

Agreed

[sinful cove]

Carno mains never satisfied gotta nerf teno more

[fresh laurel]

Maybe we could start balancing things one by one to have it be easier to see what change bothered everyone

[elder steppe]

Yes completely 100% in agreement on that

[fresh laurel]

Julie

[fresh laurel]

We dont want another update 3.75 problem again...

[elder steppe]

Whay happened in 3.75. I stopped playing for a while

[alpine plover]

Acceleration affects also charge, so nerf acc but do something with how charge works so it doesn't get affected while keeping the acc nerf, I'm repeating myself and I think you still don't understand what I mean

[alpine plover]

He is carno main with skill issues

[fresh laurel]

You confusing me ngl

[elder steppe]

Yeah. Even pre patch you could harass a single teno pretty decently. Just had to bait the tail slams. Same with stego

[fresh laurel]

How do you change charge to not be affected by accel nerf while not being abusable lol

[sinful cove]

Those damn julie stegos smh

[half girder]

why do people want utah bleed buff, its literally fine

[alpine plover]

Tenos will always win a carno if they are good

[fresh laurel]

Op even lmao

[elder steppe]

The only thing is. To do thise small balace changes to dinos, they would have to do more frequent small patches. Dont know if they want to do that

[fresh laurel]

And mud is less common so...

[half girder]

exactly!

[elder steppe]

Yeah i have a pretty good time with the current utah

[half girder]

SAME

[alpine plover]

I'll try to sum, nerf acceleration, but do something to charge so you can use it as fast as you can do now

[fresh laurel]

If they could make patches come once a week during update 1 i think they could make a balance update once a month if they really wanted

[alpine plover]

Make charge usable before reaching max speed

[elder steppe]

Yeah, but thats the whole issue we are having. Charge can be used to frequently. We just want to tone it down a little

[fresh laurel]

My thing is... whats stopping carno from using it to reach full speed sprint faster

Unless ram endlag?

[alpine plover]

Nonone has been complaining about carno charge, and prepatch charge took to much to be used

[half girder]

carno is fine rn just the turning is insane

[alpine plover]

You stop running if you stop the charge

[elder steppe]

I main carno, even i think that the time to get to ram is a bit too fast. I agree that prepatch charge was to long but right now i think a happy medium would be perfect

[fresh laurel]

I had a utah friend and we won a 2v2 with carnos lmao

This patch...

[elder steppe]

Yeah, as long as you keep an eye on the carnos you can avoid them easy enough

[fresh laurel]

Meh i still think ram should stay affected by accel nerf

[alpine plover]

Medium is the perfect solition to fix balance, just make a balance for playables between their current state and the prepatch

[fresh laurel]

Doesnt make sense to enter a ram which is faster than sprint before reaching full speed

[elder steppe]

Yeah

[alpine plover]

It will always be, cause you need to get to certain speed to use charge

[fresh laurel]

Yea but i think it works best to require you to use ram when you reach full speed since balance?

[marsh lion]

Agreed

[fresh laurel]

Doesnt sound fun to get hit by a move that can knock down most of the roster without reaching full speed

[elder steppe]

Whats funny is that since all babies have more stamina than their adult counterparts. Carnos can ram halfway across the map when they are small bois

[half girder]

bro who tf is saying carno should charge before full speed??

[fresh laurel]

Utah just needs the pack system be better

[fresh laurel]

Look up...

[half girder]

THIS COMMUNITY

[marsh lion]

Utah needs fixed in general....again

[half girder]

i cant i really cant

[marsh lion]

Same

[fresh laurel]

Fix pounce and make it so typing is as viable as vc

Like instant texts?

[half girder]

if mfs cant solo they complain

[fresh laurel]

Press a button to instantly say need stam

[half girder]

its noot legacyyyy

[marsh lion]

Oh god...

[elder steppe]

Yeah, or maybe a global voice chat that raptors can understand but to other dinos, it just sounds like raptor sounds

Didnt mean to reply to that

[fresh laurel]

To be fair if your main went from solo apex killer to needs pack to be viable then uhh...

[half girder]

should be emotes for dinos

nocap

[elder steppe]

Lol, raptor default dance

[half girder]

to interact better

[marsh lion]

Pot emotes or Primal Carnage

Cha Cha slide raptor still haunts my dreams...

[half girder]

pot ig

[fresh laurel]

https://tenor.com/view/the-isle-utah-gif-22957682

Gib utah this run one day cus funni

[elder steppe]

Oh no. Its so cursed

[half girder]

OH HANG ON

[fresh laurel]

Pretty sure its just utah model over teno run lmao

[marsh lion]

https://tenor.com/view/primal-carnage-dance-moves-online-game-gif-17320758

[fresh laurel]

Oh yes...

[elder steppe]

Lol

Im still loking at the cursed raptor and that thing has a huge underbite. Like oh ma gah

[alpine plover]

With current balance yes because acceleartion is fast, but not if acc gets nerfed

I been telling you akk the time the should nerf acce and do the charge change

Same time

[elder steppe]

I think nerfing acceleration by 30% would be just fine my guy. Besides it doesnt make sense to charge before full speed.

No matter what acceleration is at

[elder steppe]

Oh my god, ain’t that the truth

[fresh laurel]

Again it just wouldnt be fair

Imagine dying to a dinosaur faster than you that can ram you like a bull without going full speed

[alpine plover]

I wont keep answering, you wont understand what I mean

[fresh laurel]

...

Im responding to this

[elder steppe]

Even if we misunderstand what you’re trying to say. You keep implying what sonic is telling you

Which is RAM BEFORE FULL SPEED

[fresh laurel]

Just doesnt make sense bruv

[elder steppe]

Yeah just need to slightly cut back on acc and it would be good. No need to adjust the ram like that

[fresh laurel]

If you give ram gets that treatment then make utah pounce jump not take stam

See doesnt make sense...

[elder steppe]

Yeah, i think that small tweeks are what we need right now, not massive changes

[fresh laurel]

Make pachy break carno leg without charging its ram if carno can charge without full speed

Im just confused lol

Also ram shouldnt be a ez land

It should still be hard to land while being rewarding...

Which pre patch did bad ill admit

[alpine plover]

Is not the same thing but ok

[elder steppe]

Agreed

[fresh laurel]

You want carno to use its move that easily...

And mind you ram can now do head shot dmg increase i think now

[elder steppe]

Really, i mean that kinda makes sense, but oof

[fresh laurel]

Also whats with all the utah buff suggestions...

[elder steppe]

Yeah i like the utah as it is now.

[fresh laurel]

Just fix its pounce and go into vc lol

Vc cus instant comands

[fresh laurel]

Ram hitting you on tail does more than i would expect but at least they removed tail hits doing stun lol

[elder steppe]

Yikes that is pretty bad

[fresh laurel]

Also can they make teno slam just not do full dmg on the tip?...

I dont hate teno but that always bothered me

[elder steppe]

I just didnt like the whole flattening thing with the teno slam pre patch. They could get like 4-5 hits on you after flattening

[fresh laurel]

Flattening?

[elder steppe]

Im not joking everytime i got hit with a teno slam, it would flatten me to the ground. Instead of just stunning right now

[fresh laurel]

Like make you fall down?

Or flatten your model?

If so lmao

[elder steppe]

No like slam you to the ground looney toons style. Not flatten but you would be faceplanted to the ground

Then you would get up and try to stagger away, but you cant escape

[fresh laurel]

When i got hit by slam as utah it knocked me back soo...

It was weird ngl

[elder steppe]

I had a much different experience. Its only after this patch that the flattening stopped happening

[fresh laurel]

Hidden bug fix ayo

[elder steppe]

I mean they would slam full grown carnos to the ground. Instead of hiw it just stuns now

[fresh laurel]

Also north west is oasis but deino friendly ngl

[elder steppe]

Yeah, i like it up there. Always a lot of pvp

[fresh laurel]

Is it cus herbi diet plants?

Cus i dont think anyone wants another oasis

[elder steppe]

I dont know, i barely see anything up there other than roots

[fresh laurel]

I always see teno and pachy and stego go there tho

Weird

[elder steppe]

Hmm, i havent played them and gone up there because i keep seeing stegi and deino team up. Or packs of raptors, pachys and tenos

[fresh laurel]

Lmao when i was deino i got 2 of my other buddies to.murder a stego

Carnos helped but ngl was worth removing one stego from this island

Though there were too mamy carnos...

Like 10

[elder steppe]

Yeah, carno is pretty easy to grow as long as you don’t run into any cannibals. Thats why i want all dinos to have diets starting at 25-35%. Makes it harder to get to adult by just afk. Also gives herbis an easier time in the beginning.

[fresh laurel]

Or just wait for gore tbh

In mechanic test carnivore griwth without any bandage was...

Horrible like wow

[half girder]

bro said nerf cliffs lmaoooo

[mighty knot]

cliff op instant 1 shot kill

ok but to be entirely honest the putting thick bushes in the jungle right next to cliffs and all the way down them is just stupid

what does that even accomplish

it just kills people, what are you supposed to do, avoid bushes?

in the jungle?

[thorn sinew]

You can tell which bushes lead to cliffs
They’re a different shade and density/shape than the bushes you find littered around the general forest and plains

You just have to pay attention and you shouldn’t have a problem with falling off cliffs in the jungle/forest

[mental roost]

Would be nice if the game wasn't night 80% of the god damn time still
Would make it a little less insufferable to be wandering the jungles as a small dinosaur or juvi.. That or implement night vision soon ish so that it's a little less obnoxious(both in update 4 and update 4.5 almost all of my playtime was at night.. and day seemed to go by unusually quick for what should be a tropical island).

I haven't fallen off those cliffs for awhile now, but it's still very irritating and annoying.. Especially when you end up going in a circle(while still growing mind you..When fully grown you worry about it less, because you can actually play the game now.)

[thorn sinew]

Oh yea
The constant night is annoying for sure
Sometimes it gets dark enough that I really have to squint to see things

[mental roost]

That's probably what gets the majority of the players that fall off the cliff.. The fact that not only do they have to look out for a cliff hidden by a bunch of bushes mixed in alongside several other forms of vegetation. But it's also night without any sort of night vision and it's dark as fuck, while simultaneously either on the move, growing(so therefore small), or on the run and growing.

With how often it's night, you'd think the island is near the south or north pole and cold.

[fresh laurel]

turn up gamma...

[mental roost]

Didn't they disable that because it was being abused or something?

[fresh laurel]

you cant disable gamma lol

they have to add a night vision thats gamma proof

[mental roost]

Can always hide the option from the players

Would be nice if they considered adding nightvision soon..

[fresh laurel]

how do you hide gamma option?

you do know gamma is not a option in the game right?

gamma is something you can legit turn up in windows settings lmao

[mental roost]

Your wording made me think of something else, F.

I swear there was something about them wanting to get rid of some exploit people were using that was messing with either night on Evrima or foliage(I'm pretty sure the foliage stuff was a different thing entirely though)

[fresh laurel]

they are going to try and make the new night vision ruin gamma users so thats neat

they are also trying to do something about the whole see through rivers software

[mental roost]

That's probably what was bouncing around in my brain.

[thorn sinew]

I absolutely love that
I hate gamma users, especially when playing dilo (in legacy of course), who rely on the night to attack

[hollow canyon]

Bushes on top of cliffs are just a part of the horrible map design in this game, the cliffs being placed the way they are is another part of the awful design. It's just a general problem with the map being hot garbage.

It's literally the worst map this game has ever had.

At least since I started to play, I genuinely don't recall a worse map in the history of this game.

And it doesn't exactly get better either

[mental roost]

There isn't, to my knowledge. Even Mesa and original region 2 were better in some capacity(I first joined right around the time Legacy Theri was first added to the game.)

[hollow canyon]

just scrap it altogether and make a new one or something, or perhaps just replace it with the old Spiro - even that was better

[fresh laurel]

im starting to miss update 1 map a tiny bit...

hear me out

just change up the rivers a bit and gg

[hollow canyon]

Rivers are only a part of the problem

cliffs are another problem and they have been an issue ever since Evrima came out

[fresh laurel]

update one ponds were nice to be around and the rock formations...

and there were less sudden death falls

[hollow canyon]

why in the world they are placed the way they are is absolutely beyond me

Yea old Spiro was better, it wasn't exactly good, but much better than what we have now

[fresh laurel]

You would think one of the map designers would see how it would be bad lmao

maybe dont go for pure looks cool from the outside...

[hollow canyon]

I very often feel like this is one of the general issues with Evrima

it just goes for "pure looks cool from the outside"

[fresh laurel]

like in the images you see cool river formations and rock areas that the devs leak

looks amazing but uh what about gameplay...

like the nesting grounds pictures made me worry a while back due to it going to attract even more mega herds lmao

[mighty knot]

A little late but gamma works because it enhances the differences between any colors, as well as the brightness (at least that's the effect I don't know what technically speaking happens)

So by making all of the screen exactly one color, it makes gamma useless

So instead of just shifting the brightness super low like legacy, any place without light and outside of the night vision range will be 100% black or grey or whatever the color they use

[languid tundra]

I think people will need to just bite the bullet here, if we keep making the maps bland just so we dont have 'mega herds' well just end up with a basic bitch deathmatch game again. mega herds may be a thing for a little while when new areas are added, but as new dinos are also added and the game is tweaked, natural selection will just take hold just like in legacy, mega herds get smashed in legacy by the apex predators so they arent a consistent issue, i believe this will be the case on envrima. rather than complaining now, let it take course and we can have a happy middle ground of mega herds popping up but ultimately being destroyed by predators or themselves AND we can have a pretty map with natural variations.

and before anyone jumps in, im not saying dont criticize the game, im just saying, we dont need to cater to one single dino all the time when their method of hunting is impeded by natural landscapes. this isnt a target to just deinos also. Other than stego, every herbivore is always fair game to every predator on the roster bar the ptera, and stego, rightfully, is challenging due to its impressive defence measures. but nothing is impossible, people always migrate anyway and as for hotspots, unless you make water no longer a need, you will always have them, people find water and they find food, they will take the easiest path with the least resistance, its in human nature, if they can find a spot where they can be with water and food, they will take it, the only solution to that is removing food and water and just having a sandbox deathmatch, which theres plenty of servers who cater to that exact playstyle

[eager ledge]

Wat happens if your monitor has naturally high gamma would that make not be able to play game because the thing about gamma it’s built in to your computer and monitor some computers have it higher than others

[alpine plover]

A carno bite damage nerf will never happen, I laught everytime I read that suggestion

[hollow canyon]

It literally just happened in update 4 so I wouldn't say that it's impossible for it to happen again although i doubt it

[wintry mountain]

The actual speed of the bite and hitbox adjustments would probably be a more fitting and likely course of action

And ofc bleed stuff

[hollow canyon]

I don't think Carno's damage output is an issue at all, it already has a relatively low damage and rightly so

It's good for killing stuff smaller than Carno itself which is what it's meant to be doing

Bleed should be lowered though, I'd put it at 0.5 personally

[wintry mountain]

Mhm aye

Just beyond that I would mainly look at bringing it's bite box in line

[hollow canyon]

Yea I've heard of and seen myself quite weird situations in which the bite seemingly registered when it shouldn't have

[dusky surge]

@calm dagger that is the case for all juvis

[calm dagger]

they cant ram tho.. So no other juvi could outrun an adult of their species.

[dusky surge]

all other juvis have increased stam

[calm dagger]

but they arent as fast as adults

[dusky surge]

carnos aren't as fast as adults either as juvis lmao

[calm dagger]

Ramming juvie carnos are pretty much as fast as running adult carnos

test it yourself

the last time i did i was easily able to keep up with an adult although i was a juvie

And my stam ran out slower too

[azure crescent]

and? it’s a cannibal species, the babies need a way to avoid the adults

[fresh laurel]

Would that fix prey taking body hits or something instead of tail hit or...

[fresh laurel]

Pov. Juvi utah trying to avoid adults

[wintry mountain]

In theory yes

[sudden orbit]

@calm dagger because the devs increased baby stamina, which makes sense. Young individuals of many species have far more energy than full adults. You are talking about a nearly 2 ton creature running vs something thats like 50 pounds.

[hollow canyon]

Goddamn why does Deino heal so absurdly fast?

[wise sparrow]

Cause carnivore go brrrrrrr

[hollow canyon]

I literally clapped two Deinos a big one and a small one

and then got my hp back up in a matter of minutes

[calm dagger]

the difference is that a juvie is not slower than an adult

[hollow canyon]

no other carnivore heals that fast

hell no other playable heals this absurdly fast

[calm dagger]

So a juvie is basically better besides hp and damage

[hollow canyon]

My guesstimate is that it heals some 10% max health per minute

while resting

[wise sparrow]

Hypsi does

[hollow canyon]

Does it? I haven't played Hypsi since

well... since it came out

[wise sparrow]

Bro it can go from 1% to max in like 2 minutes while running with **poor diet **

[hollow canyon]

oh damn

ok, that's pretty impressive, fair enough Hypsi outheals it

[wise sparrow]

Mostly because it has barely any health to heal in the first place

[hollow canyon]

true

Deino on the other hand has the highest hp in the game combined with probably the most stationary and inactive gameplay in the game

[fresh laurel]

Highest hp ingame and still dies to funni stego

Lol

[hollow canyon]

cause Stego has the highest dps in the game

it's irrelevant though, Stego is the only animal that Deino doesn't hard murder

also its drinking seems to be bugged as hell

[fresh laurel]

True

[azure crescent]

utahs arent supposed to be cannibals so they dont need a way to escape adults

canni utahs are just a player problem, not the species

currently only 2 natural cannibal species exist, carno and deino, and both of their juvies can avoid the adults

juvie carno can outstam the adult, and juvie deino can outstam and outspeed the adults on land

[sinful cove]

@hexed viper there is already a buff for being in a group. It's called being in a group

[hexed viper]

I understand! I just meant like smaller Dino’s, utahs and smaller, only like a 5%

[sinful cove]

Unnecessary, being in a well coordinated group is already very powerful in pvp and is a buff in itself. If these groups also had stat bonuses it would be busted and artificial

[hexed viper]

Ok

Just a thought

[half girder]

@vocal minnow please get gud, i hate to say it but bro

[sinful cove]

people really want no consequences for their mistakes on the offensive in pvp

[fresh laurel]

b kEGOhpHEGBSDOHBOSDHBGAHPHBA just get a smart pack ggez

[rancid bluff]

crying carno mains typing feedback about how a teno slam shouldn't be able to stun a carno when it runs right into the tail

[half girder]

the time for a missed pounce is fine?? its an amazingly powerful tool for utah

[dusky surge]

just hit the pounce lmao

and saying "it's bugged" doesn't really count because balance should never be based around bugs

[spare badger]

It shouldn't be removed, but maybe made slightly more forgiving, since pounce seems to have a much higher risk than other special moves

[fresh laurel]

I mean missing pachy ram vs missing pounce...

[spare badger]

Yea, pachy ram is much more forgiving

[fresh laurel]

yea you already know which one is more forgiving

lol maybe reduce the endlag on missed pounce but not remove it

[spare badger]

Teno can quite easily run and line up a headshot kick to 1 shot a Utah
That's a tad too much imo

Just remove a little end lag

[fresh laurel]

missed pounce is a insta death most of the time so a little less endlag maybe

[fresh laurel]

how much less tho

like percent wise or time

[spare badger]

Dunno

I would bring it more in line with pachy missing ram

[fresh laurel]

so like 1.30 seconds?

well maybe 2 seconds

[hollow canyon]

The recovery animation on Utah's pounce seemed pretty short to me when I last played Utah(today or yesterday). It is definitely shorter than it used to be when it was first released.

[sinful cove]

It certainly is shorter than what it once was, but utah mains cant handle the idea of being punished for messing up in a confrontation that they are usually in control of

[spare badger]

Also true

It just seems a tad too long

[glass crag]

Utah missed pounced should be looked at, I think the animation is slightly too long at present
It’s not about the idea of not liking being punished for missing a pounce.
They need to sort out Utah pounce once and for all, get it to work consistently mounting and dismounting and then make any tweaks.

[fresh laurel]

Fix close range pounce ggez

[fresh laurel]

Release had 3 seconds iirc 💀

[half girder]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350260027129865/956507476763770920 same shit with pachy charge

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350260027129865/956389310351949864 its the same as pachy only reason it feels longer is cuz u sometimes go with longer pounces

the penalty is fine, please try to get better with it

[tight dome]

@safe roost adding more spots for people to camp in sounds like a bad idea.

[half girder]

carno turn isnt fine lol

accel is great tho tbh

[wise sparrow]

Carno is just a big utah who is sometimes better at bleeding than utah

[half girder]

makes use of its ability

[wise sparrow]

Nah its acceleration is aids.
It let's it do dumb shit and charge nearly instantly for almost no stamina

[half girder]

i mean it has low stam and dodging it makes it use up stam

the turning after a charge should be a heavy drift tho

[elder steppe]

Thats why i say tweak them, my opinion might not be correct on whats fine or not, but making small changes to these things to find the proper balance, i think is a good idea

[spare badger]

That's probably it

[half girder]

it is it.

pounce is so so sooo good

[elder steppe]

I concur my good fellow, feckin love pounce

[hasty coyote]

One thing I’d like to see with carno charge is that they make it so you can’t just tap it last second and get the full effect. Maybe make the charge ramp up in power over a second or 2

[hollow canyon]

Yea, that's basically an effect of all those special skills, when fire off at a close range they cause you to phase through your target, which makes you go into the recovery animation

it's an annoying bug but it likely won't get fixed any time soon

[hollow canyon]

that'd make it useless, I'd personally probably give it a fixed start up cost so that triggering it would require you to make a stamina "payment in advance"

Also - goddamn it I hate the fact that Deino's running speed got nerfed, running other crocs down is harder now

also drinking with them is so buggy atm

bloody things are a plague, I didn't even realise how many of them there are until I grew one

[fresh laurel]

Its bad imo

As in nerf it a good percentage but not be preupdate

[half girder]

so its op rn?

[fresh laurel]

Yea in a way

It kinda feels too easy to land for no penalty

[half girder]

turing nerf.

[fresh laurel]

Like you dont really even lose much stam meaning if you miss ram you have a good amount of stam to sorta fight

[half girder]

hard drift after using it

[fresh laurel]

I think revert walking turn radius to pre update

Then nerf accel by 30 or 40%

Though do one of these one at a time

[unborn iris]

30-40% is kind of crazy. It was fine before the buff, and I would be really surprised if it was buffed anywhere near 30-40%. And they didn't need 3x the amount of food per corpse. Maybe 1.5x the previous.

[fresh laurel]

I said nerf...

Before buff is a bigger nerf lmao

[wispy valley]

What do you guys think about my suggestion

[unborn iris]

30-40% nerf from what it is now would be worse than what it was before.

[unborn iris]

Maybe I didn't make that clear.

[wispy valley]

I do say Deinos should be able to do serious damage on the head of any animal, get a grapple, and work together to bring prey down. There is nocreason why Deino should get bodied by something half its weight

Of course, here come the stego mains. Why do they want Deino to be so damn bad?

Give him a fucking toolkit

Or give him advantages in water

[unborn iris]

Deino so bad it can one click kill everything in the game.. but stego. Why do deinos still cry so much?

[wispy valley]

It gets bodied by something half its weight.

[fresh laurel]

20% perhasp?

[unborn iris]

I really don't know the numbers. I'm saying it was fine before the buff. Definitely didn't need the turn buff. Only needed a little more food from corpses, and it got 3x as much. Way too much.

[fresh laurel]

I agree ngl

Carno mains crying prob got to the devs ig

[tall bronze]

Deino can also just swim away. It doesn't need to fight everything it sees.

[unborn iris]

But I would be surprised if it even got buffed that 20%. It didn't take much for that acceleration along with the turn speed, which I'm starting to think "standing turn speed" is also when you're skidding, to make a big difference.

You can do some crazy shit now on carno. I feel bad for every utah I kill lol

It's like running around with a big utah once you get a feel for the turning.

[tall bronze]

[unborn iris]

Even before, you didn't kill them every time, but it wasn't that hard.

[fresh laurel]

Standing turn buff seems ok until you remember carno can now run in a line then stop running and use walking turn

[wispy valley]

Stegos chase them down in the water.

[fresh laurel]

Also doesnt help how easy it is to ram that its the to the point you dont need to ambush to land ram...

[tall bronze]

Why are they in that shallow of water in the first place?

[unborn iris]

Not to mention the best defense vs a pack of utahs is literally standing still and just rotating to land bites as they try to attack you. You bleed less and you can afford to trade hits much more than the utahs.

[wispy valley]

I saw a swimming stego kill a healthy croc. That ahould never ever happen

[unborn iris]

It literally can't happen. They can't swing while swimming.

[golden coral]

@wispy valleyHours of growth, difficulty of growth, player investment vs how quick it can be lost. A swimming stego would not kill a croc unless that croc was 1% health or something.

[tall bronze]

They can't use their attack while swimming though. Unless you mean the bite which.....the damage shouldn't be high enough to do that

[mental roost]

Was the Deino fucking asleep?? Because Stego's peck(the only attack it can do in the water) does around 20-50 damage.. vs the 8,000 health of Deinosuchus(adult)

[golden coral]

Aside from that, sure, you can give deino 75%, when stego is 8T. :p

[wispy valley]

How the fuck did it die tho

[tall bronze]

Must've been hurt or AFK.

[golden coral]

Maybe it had taken damage prior? Like, stego can only bite when swimming, which is what, utah strength bite? So..

[fresh laurel]

Didnt alt bite get changed to be better a bit? And utah can just get a friend to bait a alt bite out of carno in order for another utah to pounce

[gusty mason]

@wispy valley heres my feedback

1. Fuck that shit sry
2. No, just No, No No No
3. Maybe actually would like it if deino can drown stuff (even heavier than what lunge can grabble) while the prey is swimming in deep water, but maybe not 75%. Dont want to lose 6t growth lmao
4. Maybe if it cost an really extreme amount of stam and is counterable
5. Idk, i dont like that, because it makes deino mega packs unfightable and extremly viable

[wispy valley]

I do want to see Deino get at least bonus damage for hitting Stego on the head.

[tall bronze]

Stego already takes like 2x extra damage than others for head shots though

[wispy valley]

And how many bites from a Deino does that take

[golden coral]

@wispy valleyIn any case, stego is an apex, and not exactly what deino should be hunting. Deino has a oneshot ability on everything but too heavy things, which it should leave alone. And stego already have extra head damage, not like that needs to be higher. You're not supposed to kill stuff with bite as deino anyway, unless it's small. Where is the issue here? That there's one thing, fully grown (or at least 75%), that you can not grab and one shot? :p

[mental roost]

Stego already has the highest damage multiplier on its head(it was around..2.5x or 3x?? But it doesn't do a lot due to the 6000 health it has and the fact that most Deino's just bite the legs or ass)

[fresh laurel]

Let deino just have a tug of war with things its weight and under (8 to 5 tons )meaning it has somewhat of a chance to grab stego

[golden coral]

6 headshots from deino

[tall bronze]

🤷 I don't really know exact num- welp there ya go XD

[unborn iris]

It got the same turn speed as the standing turn.. So it did get better, but doesn't make that much difference. Yeah, but a carno with his back against something where you have to come from one direction, or even just camping in a bush. It takes like 12 almost full bucked pounces to bleed him out. I haven't died to bleed by utahs since the buffs. Even before, really. You are almost guaranteed to get the utahs to be too hurt to continue before you are.

[wispy valley]

That's BS. What is Deino's damage? It should be bone-crushingly powerful.

[tall bronze]

500

[wispy valley]

Should be 1000.

[mental roost]

Hell no

[tall bronze]

I agree it should be higher, but make the bite much slower.

It's bite speed is stupid right now, especially with alt bite.

[wispy valley]

Yo, a carno shouldn't be able to get bit twice by a Deino

[golden coral]

500. And deino is not designerd to kill with bites, simple as that. Even if it was, stego would have to be buffed then, because you're not going to get to kill another apex, or similar growth time, in 1-2 shots, that is not reasonable at all.

[unborn iris]

12 bucked pounces if you are standing still, and not running, that is.

[mental roost]

Land deino back then was fucking silly, and giving it 1000 N just allows it to do stupid shit and play like a wannabe rex that also has swimming abilities and a 1 shot kill on anything below half its weight. I know because I fought 20+ fucking carnos with Deino back then(update 3 or update 3.5)

[tall bronze]

Hypernova actually had a neat idea for reworking the Deino bite to be stronger without making it water Rex.

[wispy valley]

Give Deino a grapple that does damage over time and limits movement speed

[fresh laurel]

Dont think you can buck 12 times before running out of stam but i think just making pounce more consistant and letting utah pounce targets at really close range would be cool

[mental creek]

the thing is: maybe its good against stego but it would unbalance the rest

[wispy valley]

Why should Deino bite your face and then just let go?

[gusty mason]

Deinos niche is to lunge stuff that is 4t- and lunch it and run from everything bigger

[tall bronze]

Tug of war is VERY difficult to do, hence why the devs have put it off for a long while.

[gusty mason]

Stego is bigger

[golden coral]

Deino has the grab, that's your "damage over time", except you drown with it.

[unborn iris]

I haven't really tested that, but I haven't really gotten to that point before I've killed or injured the pack too much for them to continue.

[wispy valley]

But Deino can't grab something a little more than half its weight?

[golden coral]

This means that anything that does get grabbed = dead unless deino fucks up or something else somehow intervenes quickly enough. Aside from that, things just die.

[unborn iris]

But this is also not all happening at once. You're standing still to keep bleed low and regaining stam faster.

[golden coral]

Yeah no shit, because of how stupidly good grabbing is. There is no counter there.

[fresh laurel]

Doesnt help how carno can pack up to 3 or 2... so you could just make a carno triangle to make it impossible for utah to get in lmao

[mental roost]

That's 2 tons more than half its weight...that's not a little. That's quite a bit more.

I am fine with Deino getting a drag ability though. As long as it's not busted or.. well stupid.

[wispy valley]

They buffed stego weight?

[golden coral]

@wispy valleyYou're a deino, designed to kill via a "OP" grab and drown. This means you can't, for the sake of balance and respecting player investment, get to kill things that are too large, since dying as a rex to a grab and drown in one go is probably not fun for the rex.

[tall bronze]

Until a tug of war mechanic is made (which isn't even guaranteed due to the difficulty), having Deino grab Stego, a 5+ hour creature and just drown it, would be quite bad.

Or we can just downsize Deino to D.rugosus size to make it feel better

[unborn iris]

Yeah, 2 half decent carnos is near pointless unless you have a really good full pack of utahs.

[wispy valley]

Just lemme say this

[mental roost]

Stego is 6 tons as a full adult.

[wispy valley]

How about make Deino's bite stupid powerful but give it a low attack speed.

[tall bronze]

Mmmhm. That's what I said 😛

[golden coral]

Then you get land deinos again.

Especially if the deino keeps its weight and extra bleed resist

[tall bronze]

Then you just

🏃

And let the gator turn into a raisin

[gusty mason]

^
People just dont get that deinos niche is to lunch and basically oneshot everything 4t- and run from everything it cant lunge and drown

[golden coral]

Sure, you could. You could do that before too I suppose, but that doesn't make it less stupidxD

[tall bronze]

Nobody is telling you to approach the 8 ton bear trap on steroids 😛

I mean real gators will chill on land and their bites are still devastating, just walk the other way :3

[fresh laurel]

Imo maybe its because utah are fighting things made to kill them lol
Pachy bonk attack
Teno cc
Carno being a small game hunter
Utah is meant to hunt big game like mid tiers that arent faster than them so maybe cera and utah is gonna clap trike...

[mental roost]

I wouldn't do that for Deino.. unless it's the alt bite(as in actually making it realistically having to take awhile to turn around with alt biting)... So more start up but the attack itself is still somewhat quick.

[gusty mason]

U can also just run from the steg

[tall bronze]

That too.

[azure crescent]

how about deathroll move that would basically waste nearly all your stam to complete and would require you to be 100% concentrated

[gusty mason]

Like that makes deino just steg 2.0

[wispy valley]

I just don't like the fact a single single stego can 1v1 several crocs

[golden coral]

I guess. But then what of the lunge? Why would a deino ever lunge if it can just bite like that, and facetank a rex at that :p

[azure crescent]

as in, literally no interruptions

[unborn iris]

Deino players. 🥱 Much better off arguing over ways to make deino vs deino more fun and challenging.

[mental roost]

Death roll could be fun....-if it's executed properly because it gives the vibe of something that's either busted or a waste of time..

[tall bronze]

Weeeeeell that's where Hypernova's idea comes in. I can't remember it all, but the main part was making it charged.

[golden coral]

They can't. Deinos just need to know how to go about it. And what when anky, rex, trike, and giga comes in. Should they die just as quickly and be as bad then? :p

[golden coral]

Ah, must have missed that. Well if we're talking full redesign of the deino, that's a slightly different matter than just changing stats :D

[hollow canyon]

Why are people asking for a Deino buff? It dumpsters everything there is in the game aside from Stego.

[wispy valley]

Can crocs get some sort of armor or something?

[gusty mason]

Because deino isnt meant to hunt adult stegs
U are supposed to avoid them
If u choose to fight and not run (swim) away expect to get shit on

[golden coral]

They have double bleed resist, that's pretty good. They also have 8K hp.

[mental roost]

I swear Deino already has armor... at least felt like it back in the day or it was due to its stupid high health.

[wispy valley]

Oh

[azure crescent]

my idea of a deino death roll’s effectiveness would be based on whether the deino is interrupted or not, and both of the players involved stam

[tall bronze]

I just want the bite to not just be stronger because gator but to be more interesting, like Hypernova's charged bite idea.

Prevents water Rex while still making it feel like an alligator bite, which should be devastating.

[mental roost]

That and the ONLY animal that can get headshots on Deino is basically Stego.

[fresh laurel]

Add death roll and fracture with some tail smack move and deino v deino may be more fun

[wispy valley]

Lemme just say this

[gusty mason]

It doesnt dumpster stego

[hollow canyon]

Read what I said

[wispy valley]

Anything that is bipedal and weighs less than 3 tons should not survive two Deino bites to the leg

[azure crescent]

is this idea decent

[tall bronze]

It trashcans Stego, duh. No dumpsters here.

[wispy valley]

I kind of wish limbs would just. Die.

[golden coral]

I don't think that's reasonable for balance honestly.

[gusty mason]

U missunderstand
I awnsered ur question

[tall bronze]

Limb removal was already confirmed to not happen for living things, so I doubt that'd happen

[wispy valley]

Like you chose to fuck with something that breaks ankles for a living instead of leaving it alone

[fresh laurel]

Tug of war mechanic for anything 5 tons to 8 on deino?

[mental roost]

^... Sorta?? Kinda agree.. Mixed.

[golden coral]

Besides, why would the deino not just lunge anything below 4T?

[hollow canyon]

oh, fair enough

[golden coral]

Again, you're meant to lunge, not bite. And you can lunge things up to 4T, so why add a "can break their leg" when it's not needed.

[azure crescent]

crocodilian bites are made to grapple, not damage the prey
they only have a high biteforce to ensure they dont let go

[golden coral]

I think it's more so that it takes away from the lunge. If you can bite carno twice on leg and prevent it from running, why lunge? :p

[gusty mason]

Deino mains are made that deino cant deathmatch everything basically

[mental roost]

-I don't like the idea of Deino 2 shotting Carno and Tenoto on anything but headshots.. ... Just doesn't feel right to me.

[fresh laurel]

Ngl deino no counter play lunge is a bit annoying ngl
Like add endlag to deino if it runs out of stam mid grab? So prey has a chance to swim back and not just get bitten to death in water

[hollow canyon]

I honestly need to test Deino vs Stego on this patch

[tall bronze]

I just like the charged bite idea ;-;

[hollow canyon]

because I swear those cases of multiple Deinos losing against a single Stego are caused by Deino players being absolute trash at the game

[fresh laurel]

Pov give deino a tail smack move like irl...

[tall bronze]

Plus it'd also let you do the whole open mouth thing real gators do when threatened/challenging others

[wispy valley]

I kinda wish the jaw muscles bulged every time Deino bites down.

[gusty mason]

Cause they wanna play land gator xD

[wispy valley]

I also wish Deino had its old threat call or holding down 3 would make it do a nasty threat call instead of a 'hiss'

[tall bronze]

Eeeeh

[wispy valley]

I also wish gator bites did the pop noise

[azure crescent]

deino main here, i know how to pick my fights and only suggested a deathroll to make combat more interesting

[azure crescent]

its 3 call is not a hiss though???

[tall bronze]

Yeah I'm not saying let it fight Stego easily, no. Just do the charged bite idea for more interesting gator combat + immersion 😛

[mental roost]

I still wish adult Deino's tail was thicker/taller.

[wispy valley]

Did they change it? Last i knew it was a snap hissssgrumblegrumble

[gusty mason]

If u scroll up i said the deathroll could work if balanced right

[mental roost]

4 call is a hiss.

[golden coral]

Honestly, a redesign of the whole lunge wouldn't go amiss. A redesign of pounce wouldn't go amiss either, nor a redesign of stego attacks. And so on xD A lot of "issues" are less stats and more how the animal/mechanics work :p

[azure crescent]

i have no idea what you consider a hiss

[tall bronze]

4 Call is fun to use as a threaten 😛

[azure crescent]

the only deino call that is purely a hiss is the 4 call

[gusty mason]

Tbh i want a bleed redesign

[azure crescent]

agreed

[wispy valley]

I am afraid to bring this up because it will look like I'm nitpicking again but

[tall bronze]

[azure crescent]

replacing lunge with the deathroll i suggested would be good idea IMO

[gusty mason]

[wispy valley]

Why does Deino have a small ass tongue? Croc tongues reach up to the teeth. Why does it stop midway the lower jaw?

[tall bronze]

It licked too much ice cream.

🍨

[gusty mason]

[wispy valley]

Someone told me they used a really old Deino model for the current Deino and I'm like

[azure crescent]

the first case of deinosuchus tongue fetish

[mental roost]

Same reason it has a big ass gap on its lower jaw where there should be another 2 teeth pointing forward.

That gap's always bugged me, because it's visible on all life stages.

[gusty mason]

It has an rare illness and had to remove most of the tongue
Ty for bringing it up infront of little deino
Poor deino :( now its crying

[wispy valley]

Idk what it is about Jacob not giving dinos a full set of teeth

They did that for Rex too

Fuck, Pachy doesn't even have teeth like wtf

[mental roost]

I hope they gave Rex its bottom front teeth back...it doesn't look right without it. Nor does Deino.

[wispy valley]

I get Rex and Deino lose teeth and regrow them but come on. Give them a full set of chompers

Also the teeth on Deino are fat and round and goofy.

[azure crescent]

what shape do you think they should be

[wispy valley]

Pointy and conical

[azure crescent]

they’re certainly conical

just not pointy

[mental roost]

Sausages

[wispy valley]

I wish they would give Deino its proper tail

Fuck it I want Purussaurus

Big mouth boi

Also yeah the lack of bottom teeth on Deino bother me but the top teeth are grotesquely fat, like it HAS to be obvious that Deino has big teeth

They did that for Rex too. Made the teeth that stick out from the top jaw absolutely massive but the other teeth look like broken ice picks

[alpine plover]

@dusky surge what is funny? You know balance feedback is full of biased bullshit

[dusky surge]

i do

im fully aware of this

but your suggestion is fucking insane lmao

[alpine plover]

Why

[dusky surge]

idk, maybe the fact that it limits the only people who can comment on the state of balance to a very small group of people while everyone else just has to suck it

[alpine plover]

We know devs exaggerate the suggestions, the should be someone that tells them what is really needed

[alpine plover]

But it would be people that really knows, and don't die of skill issue

[sinful cove]

Those people wouldn’t include you im sure

[dusky surge]

also you essentially described QA except if QA also had pure say over balance, which is dumb

[alpine plover]

Carno wouldn't have that bs drift and teno would have better stam

[sinful cove]

It literally is just feedback qa its such a gross idea

[alpine plover]

But not all people from qa knows about the combat

[dusky surge]

cool, except the concept of this game being fully balanced as a PvP game is frankly fucking dumb

it's not a goddamn arena brawler

[alpine plover]

Of course not, I was thinking people like mrdbear and scopeog

[dusky surge]

it's a survival game

there are animals that don't engage in the combat

[alpine plover]

I never said that, you cant balance beipi vs rex

They are animal not weapons, I know there are things that cant be balanced

[dusky surge]

i think you VASTLY overestimate the power of some randoms on discord to balance the Isle lmao

[deft blaze]

Limiting who has a say in providing feedback on changes isn't exactly a good idea

[alpine plover]

But ok, if you want having in the next patch a garbage carno and op teno and deino, downvote my suggestion

[dusky surge]

yes, because that's what that will do

me downvoting the suggestion to limit the balance to a smaller, combat-centric and biased party will cause the game to be naught but ruin

[deft blaze]

Seeing as you want to limit the people who can suggest changes and balance feedback to a small group, would that not then allow said people to simply be more biased than normal suggestions?

[alpine plover]

Do you understand what a trustworthy team of people is?

[dusky surge]

what makes you think this team will be any better at balancing than the actual team? Take it from someone who's worked as a legitimate Lead Game Designer for a multiplayer video game, balance is not simple. There will be times when something is VERY CLEARLY overpowered and fucked, and even your best "trustworthy team" wasn't prepared for it till they saw it reach the hands of players

[deft blaze]

It doesn't matter how "trustworthy" they are, all people are doing is providing their personal feedback on the balance changes, the devs can choose if they want to incorporate anything suggested

[alpine plover]

Then don't complain when devs fucked up the balance each update

[hazy zodiac]

how can balance dinosaur game??? some dinos clearly op

[dusky surge]

its not like the devs are so dumb that they look in balance-feedback, see some kid go "MAKE CARNO STRONGERER HE'S THE BIGGEST AND BESTEST ANIMAL IN THE GAME RN HE NEEDS BETTER" and goes "great heavens, it's in balance-feedback so it must be right

[deft blaze]

Ultimately the devs decide and it's the job of the whole playerbase to provide feedback so they can make a generalized experience that hopefully many people enjoy, instead of only appealing to the players who care about combat by selecting a team of individuals who would clearly have their own bias

[alpine plover]

Isn't that what some people think devs did with carno

[dusky surge]

like it seems to me like you want QA, but not QA, and basically make a team of unpaid game designers with less experience and based on nothing but some mild level of trust

while excluding a good 99% of the community from commenting on balance

[alpine plover]

Is not good when 50% of the balance suggestions are based on people that are just bad at the game

[deft blaze]

Everyone will have something they want to see buffed or nerfed more, which is why everyone in the community provides feedback not just a few people, so that the devs can get a general feel of what needs to be changed by cross-checking multiple suggestion to create a balanced dino

[hazy zodiac]

why not just release a new version for players to test balance and only release when most feedback is in and they can adjust???

[dusky surge]

the devs responded to reasonable claims that carno was severely underperforming on U4's release and teno/pachy could fucking destroy it, because this was the complete truth, so they buffed carno and nerfed those two animals. However, they couldn't predict how, combined with the removal of oasis, this would effect the game, because they aren't fucking prophets

[dusky surge]

so rather than getting the perspective of a new player's experience, let's just go soley on veteran trusted players, that will obviously do wonders for the incoming newer players

[alpine plover]

I know that balance problem was true, I was part of those guys

[dusky surge]

you know that a newbie's feedback can be just as valuable as someone who's played for hundreds of hours, right?

[alpine plover]

I don't think so

What I don't really trust is what devs do with the suggestions

[hazy zodiac]

does hours played mean skill and knowledge??????

[alpine plover]

Not always

[hazy zodiac]

exactly!!!!

[dusky surge]

my man, i have literally been hired as a fucking game designer, if I listened to only a small sub-group of players, I'd be awful at my job

[deft blaze]

So instead of trying to create a welcoming environment for newer players by listening to what they think, let's instead privatize balance-feedback so we can listen to only veterans and potentially scare away new players by having a difficult or confusing environment for them to enter into

[hazy zodiac]

we dont want this to turn into dark souls now do we ??????

[deft blaze]

By listening to newer players the devs can make sure that they make the game easier to get into while also making it fun for people to continue playing

[alpine plover]

Balance can't be fixed if they make a big patch every few months

[dusky surge]

balance can't ever be fixed

[hazy zodiac]

it wont ever be balanced!!!

[dusky surge]

it's a fucking video game with a large roster

it's NEVER going to be balanced

[deft blaze]

They make patches frequently because they try to create as much balance as possible, it's never going to be perfect because of how much variety there is

[hazy zodiac]

big strong carno will always bonk utah with ram oneshot!!!

or it would be fractured and die of severe wounds!!!

[alpine plover]

With balance I don't mean every playable should have 50% chances of beating any other playable

[dusky surge]

no one assumed you were saying that

[alpine plover]

also I think current balance is ok, but I see too many people asking for nerfs to carno and buffs to teno, and devs always make both things at the same time, that is what made me post that suggestion

[deft blaze]

The devs try to cater to the playerbase wile also keeping in mind whether things will break the balance or improve it

If they do make a change it's likely because they believe it will be beneficial

Of course sometimes they're wrong, and they can't make everyone happy, but they try their best while also listening to players

If something breaks the balance they can always just change it, it's not like they're permanent

[supple basin]

A lot of people I think wanna play carnivore that can fight because it is fun, but if you wanna put a full roaster and have a variety of player you have to balance it a way that people wont play only 2 or 3 because either it's boring or are simply victims that can neither escape or fight back.

[hasty coyote]

cough cough Dryo cough cough hypsi

[supple basin]

Speaking about hypsi, you can't even be safe in a tree because a carno can catch you with their hitbox larger than his head. So you die, even if he can't visually do it. So what is the point?

[hasty coyote]

Better yet, the only trees you can get in are in the jungle, and literally every Dino in the game, I even got eaten by a croc once, can reach you

They really need to add some basic climbing for hypsi this update, or it’s going to lose the 3 people who still play it

[supple basin]

Or an actual usefull spit

[hasty coyote]

Because what is the point in growing something that is 1-shot by a pt?

[alpine plover]

@wet sleet hunger drain is the same fast shit as prepatch

[unborn iris]

It's the same as every other dino. They get 3x more food from corpses than before though.

Which was overkill, as seen by the hordes of carno mega packs on every server.

[alpine plover]

That is not food drain, and herbis can graze and plants spawn much faster

[unborn iris]

So you're actually complaining about carno still being too hungry right now or what?

You can run around with 10 carnos and stay full.

[wet sleet]

Did they patch it before? Because it certainly feels slower now.

Maybe it's just the fact that you actually get calories from your food though.

[analog mirage]

The whole nerf this and buff this statement has proven time and time again to not work

You change one thing at a time then go from there

Example, Carno probably would of been fine if it was kept as is with the Herbi nerfs

Only thing Carno actually needed was the ram buff

[white cove]

it's difficult for them to do balance updates until right after big patches though

Since the 'update' branch (if there is an internal one) probably can't be shipped with just balance changes atm since it's got a lot of the U5 production going on

so I can see why they hit them both at once (a buff and a nerf) since it's just getting it all out there

Imagine the sh*tstorm if only the smallest of changes were made

[hasty coyote]

I doubt that part, we got this balance patch without anything from nesting or skins. They are just focusing on developing more features rather than fixing the ones they have. They need to balance the ecosystem after each big update or it will completely crash and burn, more than it is now

[white cove]

yeah, I kinda started thinking that out after I sent that

But might as well let my wrongness stand

[white cove]

I feel like carno wouldn't even be that bad rn if jungles weren't insufferable to exist in

[dusky surge]

at first i thought you said carnos suck but i realise now you were referring to jungles themselves being essentially inhospitable

[dusky surge]

imagine a bite to the head from a deino doing 3000 damage to a stego lmao

[white cove]

yea; them being king of the plains makes sense but it's really not fun to be anywhere but plains rn

[white cove]

Deino players just can't stand being told that something is off limits lol

It's not lord commander of the water, it's an ambush predator that drowns things smaller than it 🤷‍♂️

[slim dragon]

That'd be 1500 base damage on the bite :D
This is the highest I've ever seen on a serious suggestion

That would also render lunge completely useless
Why waste time drowning things while you can simply kill them in one bite ?

[ocean wagon]

Hands down the person that just suggested deino to 2 shot a stego is the best feedback ever

With the new map changes I just DONT see how deino mains are complaining about stego

[white cove]

Adult stegos can easily handle adult deinos at the edge of or outside the water. This is the tradeoff for adult deino being able to press 1 button and make any stego player < 80% growth go back to character select

[white cove]

deino players don't like being told no

[ocean wagon]

But my deino has to kill EVERYTHING with 0 skill

Everything!!!1!!!!1

But in all seriousness to call it what it is, if you’re dying to stegos as a deino in the current version of the game, you’re just bad at the game and should consider actually thinking about your survival choices in a survival game

[dusky surge]

Deino could do with a buff, but only when there is a considerably higher apex/larger-sized population to compete with

For now it works completely fine

[white cove]

yea, it's not like stegos are actively hunting deinos. They can always just swim away lmao

which is why the discussion seems so.....entitled? to me

[ocean wagon]

From my understanding the only apex that realistically has a change of killing a deino are spinos since they’re semi-aquatic

[dusky surge]

Yea

[ocean wagon]

But we’re not seeing spino till 2030s

[dusky surge]

But apparently according to some people, deino isn't an apex because it isn't well designed at taking down other apexes, despite the fact that absolutely does not at all match the definition of what an "apex" is

[ocean wagon]

And even then I’m pretty sure deino will be able to out pace spino in the water

[white cove]

uh

oh, had to reread, Yeah

[ocean wagon]

Deino mains are literally just legacy Rex mains complaining that the biggest carnivore can’t one shot everything with massive bone break

[white cove]

Apex != kill everything, it just means no natural predators right?

[mighty knot]

Yeah

[dusky surge]

the apex is the strongest and hardest to kill animal of an ecosystem, top of the food chain so to speak. Deino is the apex of the water, even spino isn't as aquatic as deino. Comparing terrestrial animals to an aquatic then saying "but it couldn't beat this rex so it's not an apex" is stupid since it's supposed to have no natural predators, which in the case of deino is true

[mighty knot]

I wouldn't call deino an apex carnivore

[dusky surge]

spino doesn't count because i'm very doubtful spino will be capable enough at consistently outswimming and damaging deino to the point of death

[mighty knot]

Right now anyway

[dusky surge]

kind of is tho

[white cove]

It is indeed an apex predator rn

[ocean wagon]

Literally

[mighty knot]

It's the top predator of an ecosystem that it is the only inhabitant of

[white cove]

An apex predator, also known as an alpha predator or top predator, is a predator at the top of a food chain, without natural predators

[white cove]

All animals have to interact with the river ecosystem atm, of which none actively hunt deino

[dusky surge]

fair

[mighty knot]

It gets outcompeted by carnos and utahs on land for anything that doesn't walk up to them and pick a fight

[dusky surge]

being competed with doesn't necessarily mean it's not an apex

[white cove]

yeah, plains are a different ecosystem. I'd argue that deinos are certainly the apex of all things river rn

[mighty knot]

Stegos

[dusky surge]

utahs and carnos still don't hunt them

[dusky surge]

???

[white cove]

stegos can fight it but they can't hunt it down

Crocodiles are an apex predator but elephants still exist

[mighty knot]

They get surprisingly close to hunting it but yeah they can't chase it

[white cove]

so they don't hunt it

[dusky surge]

to die to a stego, you need to be out of your environment. It's like saying that an orca loses to an elephant on the land... Yea. It does.

Orcas are still apexes tho

[mighty knot]

Until the stego sits halfway in the water with 0 debuffs

But yeah I see what you are saying

Deino has chances to run all of the time, it's just sad that it has to run away from the river it's in

[white cove]

good for the stego, it's just standing there - swim away

[dusky surge]

And? You're a more capable swimmer and the water is generally deep/wide enough to simply swim around the stegos in many situations

[white cove]

https://tenor.com/view/patrick-menacingly-spongebob-standing-there-gif-19452999

In this scene spongebob is hunting patrick C:

[hollow canyon]

So I feel like this needs to be addressed.

Carno was severely underperforming on update 4. Me and a couple of people including Doctor Nova ran some tests yesterday on a couple of match ups that people complain about.

Any claim of more than 1 Deino at once getting murdered by Stego is caused by the fact that Deino players don't have hands.

Tenonto wins the majority of fights against Carno(the vast majority, it hasn't lost a single round no matter who was controlling it) as long as it's controlled by a non-lobotomised human being. Better yet, this animal actually utilises all of its attacks instead of spamming the tailslam which is... incidentally the one attack in its kit that could use a buff because it is too niche in its use currently. There's about 3-4 scenarios in which you want to use it and tbh I very often found myself questioning whether it's worth it at that stamina cost(I almost lost one fight by running out of stamina because I used the tailslam when I really shouldn't have, this ability is simply too costly).

[dusky surge]

I have done fights and indeed, teno can still come out on top

[hollow canyon]

It's not "can" in my experience

[dusky surge]

My GREATEST issue with teno is arguably the growth

[hollow canyon]

I haven't killed Nova's Tenonto once

I haven't died to his or any other Carno once either

[dusky surge]

Dude, I fought hypernova as carno when testing these changes

[hollow canyon]

My only issue with it is the niche use of the tailslam

[dusky surge]

Never even got close, he stomped hard, and I'm no newbie by any means

[hollow canyon]

Yea well, Hypernova mains Tenonto I think

so I'm not surprised

I'm pretty sure Dashark could take down my Teno tbh

[wise sparrow]

Teno is fine it just needs some qol things and diets need a change (and that damned inconsistent hitbox)

[dusky surge]

I do agree, I think the ONLY changed needed to teno is to make the tailslam worth it

[hollow canyon]

yea the stam cost is a bit too high, this attack is alright it's just that it costs too much

you don't want to use it at all if you're below half stam

[wise sparrow]

Teno gets bodied so much in this update because there is normally like 3-5 carnos against 1 teno

[dusky surge]

I like it's use as a long-range poker/fuck-off tool, but the stam-drain/reward for hitting aren't equal

[hollow canyon]

I almost died because I did

[dusky surge]

If it was a fracture attack, or had less stam, it'd be far more useful

[hollow canyon]

that's one of the 3-4 scenarios where you want to use it, yea

[wise sparrow]

pachy is the one who is like, objectively bad this update

[dusky surge]

i like it not being super insane damage

[hollow canyon]

^

didn't get to testing Pachy tbh but

I genuinely don't see this animal being any good vs Carno atm

tbh I think it's kind of meh vs Utah

due to that turn rate

[ocean wagon]

Utahs can easily bait a ram now bc of the turn

[hollow canyon]

you're just not going to really land a hit on the Utah

[wise sparrow]

I'm fine with weak slam as its range does not seem fair with that much damage. The kick is nice because its devastating but requires you to actually be in striking range

[hollow canyon]

yea, this ^

[dusky surge]

the turn, imo, is fine, i just wish it had more in other areas. I like the fact that it sacrifices agility for big attack

[white cove]

maybe something that can prey on carnos but not carnos prey if that makes sense

[hollow canyon]

So far basically, we've found some 3 things that have to be changed(not counting Pachy in atm, since we haven't done the proper tests on it yet)

1. The tailslam stamina cost has to go down, lower it down to 7% and this attack will be just fine

2. Carno's bite bug needs to get fixed, its bite socket gets displaced and extends depending on the camera position causing it to land bites that shouldn't count

[wise sparrow]

Not exactly tho. Once a carno gets behind a pachy, unless it has a friend, it just gets ass riddin and if it tries to turn and ram it won't have the momentum and will just get stuck on an unstunned carno

[ocean wagon]

Honestly they really didn’t need to change pachys turn. Good Utahs were still able to pounce and bleed a pachy. And pachy was actually nimble enough to atleast make it out of a carno fight

[hollow canyon]

3. Lower Carno's bleed on the bite, this animal is a pursuit predator, it runs at stuff and it mauls it, if it fails, it fails and shouldn't get to have a round 2 but because if its bleed multiplier on the bite you get to drain a significant portion of the targets blood pool which allows you to heal up relatively faster than it and have another go at it.

I'd lower Carno's bleed down to 0.7 from 1.0

If it's not enough down to 0.5 it goes

[white cove]

Hey, has anyone actually tested if pouncing utahs can still get knocked off on trees/rocks/bushes; I've heard conflicting reports and haven't been able to check myself since most utahs dismount before you can tree them

[hollow canyon]

Haven't tested that but I did check that you don't want to pounce the heads of animals, you phase through it

in general the attack socket of the pounce seems to be smaller than it used to be, at least that's my impression

[wise sparrow]

Carno almost out performs utah when it comes to bleed. At least against smaller stuff.

And even talking .1 bleed allows carnivores to track you to hell and back

[hollow canyon]

pouncing things head on almost always misses

[dusky surge]

issue with that is that it goes against the basic-ass formula this game has for bleed, which is consistent with literally every bleed attack but utah pounce

[hollow canyon]

sides work normally

[hollow canyon]

That's the thing - I don't think this formula should be a constant

[white cove]

you don't just phase through, you get stuck in place - same with pouncing the back

want a video of me crashing NA 2 with a pounce?

[hollow canyon]

I believe that each attack should have the different value for bleed

Carno's bite - down to 0.7, Utah's bite - up to 1.5

I believe that at some point it will have to be adjusted to work more or less this way

[dusky surge]

what about shit like stego swing or deino bite

[hollow canyon]

otherwise what?.. Rex will have a higher bleed than Giga because it deals more damage?

[hollow canyon]

I'd leave Stego the way it is, Deino I'd personally lower but it's a non-issue so it can stay the way it is

[dusky surge]

probably giga will have utah-esque exceptions i'd assume

[hollow canyon]

1.0 should be the base

then you tinker with the rest based on what animal is supposed to do

that's how I see it

e.g. Utah is supposed to be a bleeder that relies on pouncing stuff, we want its bite to be of some use though so we buff up the bleed value for it

it has a relatively low biteforce so it won't be an insane amount of bleed anyways

but it will matter more in fights and will cause the bite to be something worth going for when you have the opportunity to do it at a relatively low risk

or should I say - it will be something worth watching out for when you're fighting against Utahs

atm their bites are borderline irrelevant

[dusky surge]

honestly, i'd just mod bleed values based on what kind of bite it is. Crushing bite? Less bleed, probably more base (potential fractures). Normal bite? Medium either way. Serrated bite? Better bleed, less base

[hollow canyon]

Could work too if you want to set up an entire system like that for it

I'd personally prefer to be able to tinker with each animal separately just to be able to adjust stuff on the fly if one particular animal underperforms or overperforms

[dusky surge]

The issue I see with that is WAAAY too much number juggling

[hollow canyon]

This is more so a bunch of stuff that's not that important atm, Carno's bleed... is not that big of an issue tbh? It matters once in a blue moon for the fight against Tenonto but tbh I don't think it should really matter much if at all

vs smaller stuff it's just annoying

In general with how Teno and Carno are right now, the most common occurrence in a 1v1 should be Carno retreating away from Tenonto based on the tests. Tenonto can't quite nuke it down in a single go, the fights last longer than they used to(which is a good thing in my book) but Tenonto quite consistently dishes out more dps to the point where unless Carno can outplay it heavily it will just lose and be placed in that situation where it has the choice between retreating with the little bit of health or trying its luck hoping for some godlike outplay to occur

(which hasn't happened once during our tests, but admittedly it was pretty close like twice)

now the problem with Carno's bleed is that if the Carno just retreats

and it stacked up a bunch of bleed on its opponent then... yea that kind of screws the other animal over and it feels a bit unfair if you ask me?

[dusky surge]

also pretty sure teno kick outbleeds the bite which is funny

[hollow canyon]

rightly so, as it should

[dusky surge]

alt-bite on teno does fucktons of bleed too, tho i dont think as much as carno

[hollow canyon]

tbh I haven't checked how much bleed the kick did, I was more worried about its damage tearing through my Carno

[dusky surge]

im glad teno has more bleed tools, bleed is excellent for making carnos leave you alone

carno + bleed = bad time

[hollow canyon]

yea but I still feel Carno should do less bleed, that's my main complaint about it

on a couple of occasions that blood pool was just going a bit too low for my liking when fighting an animal that isn't supposed to be a bleeder or an endurance hunter, idk just doesn't feel right

did it matter in any fight? No, not really, but it could in a survival setting

cancel that, not the main complaint about Carno

[white cove]

haha stamina regen* go:

[hollow canyon]

THIS is the main complaint about Carno:

[dusky surge]

ah yes, the legacy rex effect all over again

[hollow canyon]

but as far as I know it's known about

and fixing this shouldn't be too difficult

[white cove]

I got some issues with their new in-run maneuverability but it's not too overbearing

[hollow canyon]

Carno needs that maneuverability to stand a chance against Tenonto

[white cove]

would just make it easier to lose them in the trees

yeah, maybe gimp its accel instead idk

[hollow canyon]

Charge is borderline worthless against Tenonto that knows you're there atm

you need to be able to maneuver around it to have a fighting chance

[mighty knot]

That hitbox in combination with the maneuverability plus the netcoding just means if you try to evade a carno it just doesn't miss

[hollow canyon]

and with charge being worthless I don't even mean that Tenonto can just sidestep it, the goddamn thing really just hard counters charge atm due to the latest changes to CC

[ocean wagon]

I’d prefer carno have good acceleration and it has a dramatic drift

[mighty knot]

Compared to how it was

[white cove]

yeah, I just think it operates a bit too effectively in the woods rn

[hollow canyon]

I haven't had issues getting away from Carnos in the woods as a Utah

I mean in general I haven't had issues getting away from them as a Utah, my main problem was that I was typically trying to fight them and 1v1ing a Carno as a Utah is... well not that good of an idea

but pretty much every time I died it was because I was trying to solo one, the last death was caused by the pounce latching me in the air 5 metres away from the Carno which made me not realise that it started bucking since I didn't see it on my screen

[white cove]

yeah - i guess its stats aren't really too out of line, but it's position in the ecosystem with packs of 10+ roaming around isn't possible to play against

[hollow canyon]

I know, if you ask me I'd just forbid people from packing up as Carnos

Admittedly I guess I'm a bit lucky because I don't run into that many Carnos

[white cove]

and you can't/shouldn't balance a carnos stats around there being 10 of them because then it's unfair to those that are playing as intended

[hollow canyon]

but I did attack a group of 6 once as a solo Tenonto

that was my only death vs Carno as Teno I believe

and just to be clear - I didn't notice there was 6 of those bastards there

I thought it was like a pair or something

[brittle dirge]

Obviously an ambush tool is gonna be not so great if the prey knows you're coming lmao. That's why you adjust your position and try again or just move on to find different prey. That's how an ambush hunter should be

But with how Carno currently is it may as well not even have the charge ability cause it can just mindlessly run in and spam bite

[hollow canyon]

Charge isn't an ambush tool, it's not designed as one

Carno isn't an ambush hunter either, it's a pursuit predator

[carmine patrol]

tbh teno claws should do WAY more bleed than carno's bite, it doesn't have stun or good damage so it should have a lot of bleed, it should be tenos main way of dealing bleed, and kick shouldn't do more than carnos bite, I say make claws do as much bleed as the current kick and make kick do as much as current claw

[hollow canyon]

Clawswipe does have its use even in the match up against Carno

you don't want to overbuff it though because it shreds Utahs

if you buff up its bleed even more it will be more oppressive against them

[white cove]

utahs deserve to be oppressed

c:

[hollow canyon]

Although I mean it should perhaps do more bleed than Carno bite... not by buffing its bleed but just by nerfing Carno's bite bleed

[carmine patrol]

not really, currently I only find claws useful against utah

[hollow canyon]

Yea really, I've literally spent an hour yesterday playing Teno vs Carno and I did use the clawswipe quite a bit, it was probably the second attack I've used most often after the kick and ahead of the tailslam

[carmine patrol]

the claws only do 120N, so it deserves to atleast have good bleed

[hollow canyon]

you basically use it if your target is too far for your kick to reach them and you need to readjust your position, it's the highest damage dealing attack you have from the front so the moment a Carno is CCed outside of your range

[carmine patrol]

and kick does too much bleed

[hollow canyon]

you turn around and swipe it before it gets to leave

I think kick's bleed is alright

[carmine patrol]

I think kick should be the main way to deal damage, claws to deal bleed, and tail to stun and use kick/claw

[hollow canyon]

I mean... it could be rearranged to that but I do think that the situations where you use kick and claws are just different

I don't think these attacks are interchangeable

vs Carno you just use mainly the kick, clawswipe goes in if you have a split moment before Carno gets out and you want to land an additional attack on it

it's just a little "goodbye gift" that you give Carno before it sods off

[carmine patrol]

kinda useless ngl

[hollow canyon]

it's not useless at all

it adds up

I had fights where I'd land like 3 of those, that adds up to 360 damage

[carmine patrol]

120 extra damage doesn't really mean a lot

[hollow canyon]

of course it means a lot

if you get it for free, it matters a tonne

all this damage you dish out slowly piles up, in this fight you want to trade better and put more punishment on Carno during the short contact the two of you make than it does on you

[carmine patrol]

I mean, your caw can only reach to the legs of carno, so you don't really do that much

[hollow canyon]

not really, you can land the hits on the torso too but even then - it does add up

all this damage adds up because as I said - the only thing that matters is to put more damage out onto Carno during the short contact than it does on you

Carno isn't going to brawl you

unlike what the balance feedback is saying - it can't do that

[carmine patrol]

claws are actually good damage wise, but they lack a lot on bleed

[brittle dirge]

How is it not? It's primary function is to knockdown things smaller than it and make it easier for the Carno to kill it, and since most of the things Carno can knockdown are more agile than it that would mean it needs to catch them by surprise, aka, ambush. Carno being fast just means it has the ability to escape a fight it cannot win since it's not meant to be a brawler

[hollow canyon]

You can use the charge in a fight too

it's just hard to land 1v1

a good player won't get hit by that

[carmine patrol]

yes, but the target has to be stupid to fall for it

[hollow canyon]

I'm talking about Tenonto-sized things, you can try to hit a Utah with it I guess but I mean... that Utah would have to be challenged

[white cove]

If I had a nickel for everytime I actually fought a carno Xv1 I'd have a depressingly small amount of nickels

[hollow canyon]

yesn't

you see - if a Tenonto lets you knock it down

it deserves a Darwin award

but you can try to use the charge for damage without knocking it down

of course you have to beware of it just countering it with its fat butt

because Tenonto has the means to punish a charging Carno hard

due to how the CC works you can just stand in front of the Carno and have it run into your tail and backside

what happens then is that you get to land a CC for free

without getting CCed yourself

and now you have Carno on your business end, exactly where you want it

if you do it correctly the fight might just be over after that one engagement

[carmine patrol]

yep, charge is too spamable in its current state

[hollow canyon]

I wouldn't say it's spammable at all, it is a very niche attack

hell it's more niche than the tailslam

[carmine patrol]

You seem like a good teno main, you know all the ways to counter carnos even tho teno is BS rn

[hollow canyon]

I'm not really a Teno main, although I've played it by far the most out of the entire roster on this patch

it's just about knowing the patch notes, knowing how the animals work and interact and about using them correctly

[carmine patrol]

so you main teno on this patch only?

[hollow canyon]

most Tenontos are absolutely awful in the game

[carmine patrol]

true

[hollow canyon]

I play Tenonto the most, yea

Let me put it this way - a rule of thumb with Tenonto on this patch is that

if you see it use a tailslam twice in a row - it's probably bad

[carmine patrol]

Idk why they say that a carno can "brawl" a teno rn

[hollow canyon]

like... there are some situations where you'd do that but they are very specific

e.g. you got a Utah with a slam and you want to finish it off

but in general you won't see a good Tenonto use the tailslam twice in a row for the most part

it will put another attack after the tailslam

meanwhile most Tenontos on the official servers

are entirely convinced they have just this one attack

seriously, Tenonto right now is the equivalent of the entire playerbase of Stego being convinced that this animal is only capable of biting and then complaining that it needs a buff

[carmine patrol]

I can 1v1 carnos easily, but now 1v2 is very hard if not impossible, I used to 1v2 tenos all the time before EVEN 1v3 in situations, but now teno is dead if you see more than one carno and you don't have a forest/water to escape

[hollow canyon]

I don't think a Tenonto should be surviving an actual fight against 2 or more Carnos for the most part

if it can't use forest/water to escape then well that's on the Teno then again Carnos shouldn't be grouping anywhere near as much as they do

[carmine patrol]

a good teno should atleast stand a chance

[hollow canyon]

This won't be to most people's liking but I'd personally just put rules in place regarding the sizes of packs

No more than 3 Carnos in a pack and that's it

none of this overpacking and mixpacking nonsense

[white cove]

I mean, that is the case now

but no group chat means there's no benefit to 3 carnos vs 9 other than seeing each other's names

[hollow canyon]

I mean... a good Teno theoretically does, I haven't tried fighting multiple Carnos at once(I guess there was one case where I was up against two and survived but I used the water to lure one of them away and killed it 1v1 when it followed)

[hollow canyon]

No, I'm talking about legacy-style rules for officials

[white cove]

oh, yeah

[hollow canyon]

you just couldn't have 4 rexes cooperating back there

[white cove]

Global chat was bad but not all bad

[hollow canyon]

admins enforced that but I think they might be busy enough as they are so idk

Oh no, there was no global on officials on legacy

[white cove]

oh, I didn't play legacy officials mb

[hollow canyon]

you just reported stuff that was against the rules to admins via discord and they handled it

[carmine patrol]

If I were responsible for balance I'd give teno:
1-tailslam buff so that is does 260N and make it use 6-7% stam
2-swap claw and kick bleed values
3-slightly improve stam regen

and for carno:
1-less bleed on the bite
2-revert the skid
3-return the charge cooldown

pachy:
just revert the balance changes

[hollow canyon]

I don't think returning the charge cooldown does... anything really? That's hardly a nerf imo, if you want to nerf charge give it a start-up cost

[carmine patrol]

Stego:
tail jab nerf so that it does 900N instead of 1250N

[ocean wagon]

I mean yeah why should it? I feel like people have gotten too used to update 3 balance for tenos and when they hear the word “brawler” they expect teno to be able to juggle 4 carnos at once like in update 3.5.

[hollow canyon]

I was kind of in favour of nerfing Stego until yesterday but tbh, I think it's fine?

Like... ugh I don't think the word "fine" is the right one here

cause this animal has no business being in the game but

it's not overtly oppressive to anything, lowering its damage output doesn't make it more vulnerable to its predators, it's really just a way of buffing Deino

and I really don't think Deino needs any buffs