balance-feedback-discussion

[placid reef]

anky is slower so it needs to have a better chance

[rapid flicker]

I made a little something for you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fy4qg0Lb84

[spring dagger]

I know, i was unaware they changed the ALT

I tested it out myself, it still kills subs but it doesnt on adults so they actually have any counter play, though the leg break is completely unbalanced on it

I found myself breaking the legs of utahs quite often

[placid reef]

they fixed the hitbox?

[spring dagger]

I dont know if they did that

I found myself cancelling pounces alot more often than i should, but theres an annoying glitch with baby utah where your movement locks

And they can just repeatedly pounce you and you cant do shit about it

[placid reef]

bc for the longest time the base of the leg counted as body pretty sure, so if the bug is fixed then leg fractures will be more easier to get on smaller stuff

[rapid flicker]

There is also a weird thing going on with Carno where a Juvi carno can use its charge and knock down a full adult pachy. Dont know if thats intended tho

[placid reef]

can juvie pachy still stagger adult caerno?

[rapid flicker]

idk about that.

[placid reef]

if it still can looks like pachy and carno juvie got the same treatment lol

[spring dagger]

Juvi pachy can stagger a adult yeah

both a utah and a carno

But its for a second so it's not that great

[placid reef]

thats just staggers more or less

[slim dragon]

@alpine plover Do you realize that giving Teno a very-high damaging running tailslam would allow it to run to utahs, ambush them and insta-kill them ?

That's literally turning it into a predator

[alpine plover]

That's on the utah for dying lol, and currently teno already does that

[slim dragon]

No need to make it even easier

[placid reef]

then why would you think they need a buff?

[alpine plover]

I mean, if they miss they come into a recovery

[slim dragon]

Also with that much damage and the added possibility of attacking while sprinting, one teno could also ambush carnos

Not even talking about chasing predators down

[alpine plover]

If the carno can't see the teno or hear the loud thudding then that's on him

[slim dragon]

Lacking the skill to spot a predator is one thing, needing to fear ambushes from an herbivore is another

[alpine plover]

You should always fear the ambush of anything that can remotely hurt you

[placid reef]

teno isnt able to do that, you made it able to do that...

[alpine plover]

It is very well able to do that right now

[slim dragon]

You're mistaking "ambush" and "attack"
There is nothing wrong with a teno killing carnivores on sight
There is something wrong with a teno being able to run up to carnivores, chase them AND killing them without even having to stop
Preventing that kind of behaviour was the reason Pachy's charge needs to be charged and doesn't work just like carno's

[alpine plover]

Yes, of course, because the Teno would totally not flip around and then slam its tail down, basically turning to the entire other side

[slim dragon]

It' still a sprinting attack that deals a ridiculously high amount of damage

[alpine plover]

That is not just: "Run and tailslam while still moving"

[slim dragon]

Also the fact that a running tailslam would deal more damage than a standing one is counter-intuitive and very bad for balancing a herbi

[alpine plover]

How so lol

[slim dragon]

Because if it's standing, it can use its whole body to raise its tail and smack it down
Also in videogames stationary attacks=more damage, unless your character is specifically designed to charge at enemies (which Teno isn't)

[wise sparrow]

If teno could chase down thing and deal more damage than its standing slam the standing slam will be useless AND it would allow people to play teno like a predator.

[alpine plover]

The standing tailslam will be used as a utility more than a outright murder weapon

[wise sparrow]

And we all remember the shitshow that was the early qa teno damage and you want that BACK?

[mental roost]

Nerfing Tenoto's tail slam to only 100-150 damage is just disgusting.. I'd like the front tail slam too but it's not necessary for the time being, and allow for Tenoto's to become even more overly aggressive than they sometimes are while also further invalidating both the standing tail slam, and the claw attack.

[slim dragon]

What kind of logic is turning an attack into an utility

[wise sparrow]

The tail slam is supposed to be it's most lethal wepon

[alpine plover]

Which is why you buff the kick

[slim dragon]

I don't see why you would shift everything in teno's kit jut to... what purpose, apart from allowing it to run down other dinos ?

[mental roost]

"Utility": I think the utility sought for is doing enough damage to tell predators to fuck off.. And buffing the kick while nice, will still be a bad play if you reduce the biggest heavy hitting attack in the animals arsenal and want to replace it with an attack that really shouldn't do more damage whatsoever..

[alpine plover]

Teno rn is hardly an "all-rounder" the issue is it just outright brawls with things using only 1 single attack which isn't what it's supposed to do

[slim dragon]

Then it requires some slight buffing to tailslam and some slight nerfing to other attacks, so that eeach one i relevant to use, but no need to completely remake its kit

[wise sparrow]

While yes the stun on tenos slam is a tad bullshit. And it invalidates the other attacks. That doesn't mean you have to cripple the attack

Adding this would turn teno into carno fodder

[alpine plover]

If it keeps the stun and knockdown, just use that to knock a bastard down and then kick the bastard

No it wouldn't

[mental roost]

The tail attack should always be doing the most damage, however nerfing it to where it's comically bad is a HORRIBLE idea. It'd be better to look at a small nerf to the tail slam, and buffing/taking a look at the kick and claw attack to make them more viable(the bite is absolutely useless but it's a beak attack, so eh and more of a "go away, scram" type thing).

[alpine plover]

"horrible", that in of itself is comically

[wise sparrow]

Carno, the fastest animal in the game, will never let you get that running slam off. So now you cant land your highest damage attack and all your other attacks cant out damage it if it gets in your face

[slim dragon]

Just for the sake of making sense, it looks like tail slam would be the most heavy hitter of all teno's attacks
Kicks can hurt for sure, but teno's tail probably weighs a few hundreds of kilos, and it's slammed on the ground so hard it could shatter stone

[wise sparrow]

All the carno has to do is run into your face and then you cant set up the running charge, and since you nerfed all of its attacks it cant out damage carno (and god forbid 2v1 or 3v1)

[alpine plover]

"All of its attacks" the only attack that was nerfed is the tail slam.

[wise sparrow]

Kick would look ridiculous doing more damage than slam so kick would do less than the laughable tail slam meaning that yes, you practically nerfed all its attacks unless you want the attacks to make no sense whatsoever

[alpine plover]

The kick which deals fractures?

[wise sparrow]

Ah yes, because anything other than a head fracture will definitely stop the carno from face tanking you

[alpine plover]

All you have to do is hit the Carno with the tailslam, which would already have a lowered stam cost so you can use it more, stun it and kick it right in the face for high dmg and fracture

[spare badger]

That changes teno a bit too much

[alpine plover]

That makes Teno what it was supposed to be

[spare badger]

I would just reduce tail slam DMG and stam cost a little and give it fracture
And give the kick the stun and a better hitbox

[wise sparrow]

Carnos head is held above tenos kick so it cant get a head fracture. Allowing carno to keep face tanking

[alpine plover]

No? I literally said also increase the range of the kick abit

[spare badger]

Kick should be able to headshot carno it looks like it can but the hitbox is garbage

[wise sparrow]

I think the problem with slam atm is the stun. Stun atm is such a stupid thing that just insta kills everything that gets hit. Stun needs to be completely reworked

[alpine plover]

And seriosusly, if it were to have 150 dmg that is not that massive of a dmg nerf

[spare badger]

Isn't it a lot more than that right now

[mental roost]

Why even kick it when you can just keep smacking it with your tail...I'd honestly prefer having it where the stun on the tail is shortened(so utahs and carnos can get out of it faster) but increase the stun on the kick if it lands on the face. .. Also 150 damage is a BIG damage nerf. You're making it do less damage than Carno's bite(175 N).

[alpine plover]

Currently the tailslam itself already does 250 dmg. Now combine thaat with stuns/knockdowns, a very long reach AND with very high DPS?

[mental roost]

I'm pretty sure the tail slam does more than 250 right now(which is why it can one shot utahs with a headshot)

[alpine plover]

Because Teno's whole thing is being an all-rounder with multiple attacks that all combined make it a good bralwer

[spare badger]

Tail slam 1 shots Utah on the head so it does a lot more than 250

[wise sparrow]

Its 360 dmg iirc

[alpine plover]

Not just "Oh, you have 1 supreme ability over all the others that all the others are not worth using at all"

[spare badger]

Yes it is 360 dmg

150 would be less than a carnos bite that is so shit

[alpine plover]

No

[mental roost]

Yeah but making it having to rely on the kick for damage is just silly, when the kick is better off being the stunner and the tail the heavy hitter. You can move while doing a kick but can't while doing a tail slam.

[wise sparrow]

If kick was fixed, claw was buffed slightly, and stun was nerfed, teno would have to make better use of its kit

[calm ibex]

running tailslam encourages agressive strategies as herbivore, it sucks for same reasons why pachy is such a good ambush predator atm

[alpine plover]

Stun him, kick him in the damn face and break his face, or even kick him in the leg and break that, the claw also deals decently good dmg with pretty damn good bleed

The fact alone that Teno only uses 1 ability most of the entire time is just showing that it's completely driven off from its identity

[wise sparrow]

Claw is only good against Utah atm. And that's mostly because it is so squishy

[calm ibex]

ask the balance team why they made kick redundant ability

[mental roost]

**A kick to the face vs having a 400+kg tail SLAMMING DOWN **.. Yeah I can see which one does more damage.. Hmmm.

[alpine plover]

The claw can actually out-dmg a carno

[spare badger]

Teno uses more than just tail slam
Yes it's it's best move but the others are still good

[mental roost]

Bush Pachy's

[wise sparrow]

It takes stam tho

[alpine plover]

A very miniscule amount

[spare badger]

I want the kick hitbox buffed so it's more usable for its purpose

[wise sparrow]

Carno will win if you rely on claw

[alpine plover]

A Teno can literally(at full Stam) claw 55+ times

[mental roost]

Facetanking carno with claw swipes is a bad idea... But it's a good way to save stamina and I've used to combo it before(tail slam) + multiple claws. Less DPS but lets me keep more stamina to use another tail slam later.

[spare badger]

So? Claw isn't the heavy hitter

Slam is
There's a reason you can only do 10

[alpine plover]

Claw can still kill Carnos

[spare badger]

Stupid carnos

[alpine plover]

So most carnos?

[spare badger]

I have never seen a carno attempt to facetank my teno since update 2

[calm ibex]

that is sadly the case

[spare badger]

Balancing around stupidity is a bad idea

[alpine plover]

The claw doesn't even need any changes, claw is perfectly fine. Kick needs more usability and the tailslam shouldn't be the "I just do everything" attack

[spare badger]

Tenos current playstyle is good
Kick just needs a hitbox buff, that's it

Kick has legitimate uses but half the time it misses

[alpine plover]

Even with a better hitbox I will always just choose the tailslam

[wise sparrow]

Kick needs fixing and stun needs tweaking. Other than that teno is perfectly fine

[spare badger]

Tail slam doesn't do the same things kick can, kick is most useful when fighting many creatures at once, slam can't do that

Since you can do it while running

[mental roost]

Making kick the heavy hitter 100% isn't the way to go. Giving it a better hitbox, maybe more bleed is fine. Reducing the stun on the tail slam would be nice, as would be reducing the damage to 260 ish , or maybe 270(so even if it lands a headshot, Utah isn't instant killed... though I am part of the boat that it should be 1 shot but eh, gameplay wise it's for the better probably to not have 75 or so minutes be deleted in 1 tap.)

[spare badger]

I am fine with reducing the stun duration on slam a little and buffing the kick hitbox

Slam 1 shotting Utah with a headshot makes sense imo
That is one thick tail

[mental roost]

The animal is pretty much 60% tail

[spare badger]

But maybe if it just barely didn't kill it would be fine

[mental roost]

It does make sense...but being 1 shot by a tenoto like that may not be the most fun thing in the world. But it also does kind of thin out packs so it's a very.... mixed situation

[spare badger]

How much does Utah weigh?

[mental roost]

450 kg.

[wise sparrow]

If tenos tail hits the full length of a utah what does it count as?

[spare badger]

Make slam 299 so Utah survives with 1.5 health

[mental roost]

I have no idea. I... My concern would still lie in Tenoto getting overwhelmed too easily, if found by a MASSIVE pack.

[spare badger]

Yea
So I would say 1 shotting a Utah with a headshot is fine

[mental roost]

Being able to take one out of the fight fast is pretty helpful...but not very fun for the utah to get 1 shot. So -le shrug-

[wise sparrow]

Also that idea makes teno worthless against 2 or more carnos

[spare badger]

Granted it's a headshot

Teno should be able to 2v1 carnos with difficulty

It shouldn't be easy but definitely plausible

[mental roost]

Definitely.. Tenoto can't exactly run away either, unless there's a body of water.

Or deep thick woods and the carnos don't know how to track too well

[spare badger]

Requires 6 slams to kill cause of healing

Or 5 slams and one bite

So a teno needs to be very careful to not waste stam but teno should be able to win since Teno is a brawler designed to fight and carno is not

[wise sparrow]

Honestly is there any way to counter tracking if you cant crouch?

[spare badger]

Swim ig

[mental roost]

Sadly not really for now

I'd honestly be okay if they adjusted the hitzones per animal to be a bit more unique.. Ei reduce Tenoto's tail hitzones(base included), but make the neck more juicy. Carno overall having pretty good hitzones except for the tail..

[slim dragon]

Everyone (maybe except very big lads like stego) should be able to crouch

[spare badger]

Z walking should remove tracks

So quads can crouch

But not really
Z walking has little purpose rn

[mental roost]

More variety in how each animal takes damage and what not(either due to anatomy, hide, etc. The base of Tenoto's tail and "hump" seems to be covered in hard scales anyway). Ceratopscian butts should also take some very heavily reduced damage: big phat wall of meat, muscle, and bone with nothing really vital in there except booty.

[slim dragon]

I'd prefer if everyone would get crouching or "low profile" animations

[placid reef]

could be for quadrupeds like a defensive position too

[slim dragon]

Depends on the playable I guess
Teno gets crouching, stego gets a defensive position where it lowers its head and raises its tail, both allowing it to hit apexes head easier and making its own harder to hit

[placid reef]

yup, trikes etc is self explanatory, kentro maybe gets in that pose we see in the concept and so on, ofc getting this makes them much slower than the bipedal crouch

[hollow canyon]

just... lol

[ocean wagon]

I’m honestly so confused on what the devs want to do with carno. It’s supposed hunt small tiers but all the small tiers can either out brawl it or they’re too slippery to catch

I wouldn’t be phased if they just took carno out. It’s honestly a mid dino

[fresh laurel]

Eh

Ram needs adjusting

[ocean wagon]

Like?

[fresh laurel]

Check the other suggestions

Like wavepools

Or the hundreds of carno suggestions

Not sure how smaler tiers out brawl carno

Utah packs sure but get a pack of your own

[ocean wagon]

Teno and pachy out brawl carno

[wise sparrow]

Because they are slower

And made to brawl

[ocean wagon]

Right so my point still stands, they out brawl carno

[fresh laurel]

I mean teno vs carno could be 50 50 like in update 3 or 2

Now its eh...

[ocean wagon]

From what I’m remembering, the beginning of update 3 carno vs teno wasn’t a 50/50 tenos could hold off multiple carnos. And update 3.75 is where teno just became meals on wheels

[fresh laurel]

Update 3 it was 50 50 at least for me

Man update 3 was fun ngl...

[ocean wagon]

You could most definitely hold off multiple carnos with just a solo teno

[fresh laurel]

I never had trouble with one teno sooo...

Maybe im thinking of update 2

[ocean wagon]

Me personally it took about 3 carnos for me start getting worried in the beginning of update 3.

You’re most definitely talking about update 2

[fresh laurel]

Update 2 carno legit crazy

[ocean wagon]

Update 3 teno was a powerhouse

[fresh laurel]

U2 carno made utahs free food imo

Well if utah couldnt land a good pounce

U2 utah most fun utah imo

[ocean wagon]

But that still doesn’t address my concern with carno. All the smaller tiers that it’s supposed to specialize in hunting are either too agile for it to catch or they can bully carnos in a head on brawl

[fresh laurel]

Like pachy...

[ocean wagon]

And teno

[hollow canyon]

You're remembering it wrong

[fresh laurel]

A duo of good good utahd

[ocean wagon]

Oh?

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto became a free meal on the mechanic test when its tailslam took a serious hit

3.75 Tenonto should've been better than 3.5 Tenonto

It kept its whole damage

while Carno lost ~40% of its damage output

[ocean wagon]

Oh right, I forget that MT was a thing

[hollow canyon]

Yea that was MT, Tenonto was just godawful there for a lengthy time

[ocean wagon]

But my point still stands, teno has a long history of bullying carno

[hollow canyon]

then it got overbuffed as always

Honestly this match up on livebranch was the worst for Tenonto in mid-late update 2

[ocean wagon]

Update 2, carnos would literally just face tank

[hollow canyon]

nah it wouldn't

[fresh laurel]

No

[hollow canyon]

I've won against every Carno I took on solo

but I've heard that a good Carno would always kill a really good Tenonto

[fresh laurel]

Carno never could face tank teno besides mechanic test

[hollow canyon]

^

It's not Carno's damage that got worse later

it's the speed, the stamina and the agility

[fresh laurel]

To be fair carno agility was too good back then

[hollow canyon]

update 2 Carno was really agile, not quite enough to catch a good Utah but agile enough to potentially win a fight against Tenonto more than 50% of the time

[fresh laurel]

But stam was fine imo

[ocean wagon]

Are you sure? On the old map I swore carno could face tank a teno

[hollow canyon]

Its damage was unchanged between update 2 and update 3

[fresh laurel]

Yes carno could face tank itself

[ocean wagon]

Lol auto correct

[hollow canyon]

it was 350N in update 2 and kept that biteforce in update 3

what got hit was the running time, the stamina burnt while charging and the agility

[fresh laurel]

Old utah bite force was 175n right?

[hollow canyon]

its charge did get a bit of a buff

[hollow canyon]

130N

[fresh laurel]

Mhm...

Good times ngl

[hollow canyon]

The charge did not knock down Tenontos in update 2 in my experience

it started knocking them down in update 3 though

[fresh laurel]

Wish i could return to update 2

[ocean wagon]

Back when 4 raptors pouncing a stego could kill it

[fresh laurel]

Back when balance was fun

[fresh laurel]

Stego needed more moves tbh

[hollow canyon]

Yea Stego was the one animal that was bad on that update

[fresh laurel]

Stego was bad so they nerfed utah into this

Maybe fix stego imstead?

Because now we got this problem

[hollow canyon]

Utah was absurdly strong on update 2 as well

[fresh laurel]

To be fair

[hollow canyon]

both it and Carno were kind of overtuned at the time

[ocean wagon]

2 Utahs could drop a carno ez

[hollow canyon]

Well... idk about ez but 2 good Utahs could definitely kill a Carno

[fresh laurel]

Stego could one shot it to body back then i think?

Or was it head

[hollow canyon]

I would typically wipe an entire pack as a single Carno but the moment I ran into 2 Utahs that actually used their hands to play the game

[fresh laurel]

2 utah pouncing carno did 70% or half hp i think

[hollow canyon]

I had to run tucking my tail

[fresh laurel]

Bro...

I swear most utahs are bad rn

[hollow canyon]

Idk about now

[sour halo]

utah itself is bad rn, but you are right

[fresh laurel]

Legit had a carno fight our pack but my smart pack decided to all rush in

[hollow canyon]

I don't see that many Utahs and Carnos nowadays

[fresh laurel]

Caused us to all pounce each other

[fresh laurel]

No no

[hollow canyon]

The most common animals I see are probably Stego and Pachy

[fresh laurel]

Most utahs need to learn to wait

[hollow canyon]

followed by Utah

[fresh laurel]

Meta are herbuvores to be fair

[hollow canyon]

then Tenonto and Carno once in a blue moon

[fresh laurel]

Utah only popular because its fast to grow

[hollow canyon]

Deino is about as common as Teno and Carno in my experience

[fresh laurel]

Deino adults so rare for me

I think deinos resorted to killing each other

[alpine plover]

usually full adult deinos stick around at the cancerous main pond because they want to die i guess

still haven't figured out why people play deino now

[fresh laurel]

500kg utah with 510kg pachy

Hmmmm

Or does it have to be 25kg more to not pin

[spare badger]

Why do you think they shouldn't be able to?

[alpine plover]

probably due to the fact that there's 2 of them

plus carno is heavier of course

not by much though

[hollow canyon]

again... just lol

[alpine plover]

teno fighting off 2 animals larger than itself seems. . .

no

[spare badger]

I would say that the brawler should put up a good fight against 2 ambush/small game hunters

Dont get me wrong 2 carnos should definitely win but it shouldn't be easy by any means

[fresh laurel]

No...

[hollow canyon]

https://tenor.com/view/are-you-serious-highfive-are-you-serious-gif-5916191

[alpine plover]

^

[spare badger]

(This is assuming they don't get an ambush)

[fresh laurel]

Teno vs 2 carnos should be pretty impossible unless carnos bad

Plus teno will have a friend

Normally

[fresh laurel]

Carno ambush pretty loud you gotta admit

[ocean wagon]

In the current version of ervima?? Tenos do this all of the time

[spare badger]

That's true
They need to change how carnos charge works so it's a better at actually ambushing

[fresh laurel]

Teno slam needs adjusting

[fresh laurel]

Doesnt help how most carnos start ram 50 meters away lmao

We need sandbox to fix this skill issue lmao

[spare badger]

Charge should be able to be used out of a crouch or stand for a large stam cost so it can yknow
Actually ambush things?

[fresh laurel]

Would be nice

Add more things to charge and pounce and lunge

Make carnivores fun?

[spare badger]

I'm just saying that it shouldn't be free for a 2v1 with carnos
They definitely should win if they didn't it would be kinda daft

[fresh laurel]

Still dont get why herbivores are easier to grow and yet stronger

[spare badger]

Honestly lunge needs some kind of counterplay

[fresh laurel]

Cant starve to death

[spare badger]

That's more to do with the kinds of dinos we have

[fresh laurel]

Tug of war mechanic?

[fresh laurel]

But its like why grow utah when you can be pachy?

[spare badger]

Maybe
Also Deino taking x amount of damage should make it let go out something

[fresh laurel]

Please!

[alpine plover]

universally, herbivores should be stronger than their carnivore counterpart, but right now its too far

[fresh laurel]

I really want to save my grabbed friends

[fresh laurel]

Exactly

Herbis should win 55% or 60% of the time when 1v1

Like an advantage

[spare badger]

The point I'm making is that the 2 main herbis are brawlers and their carnivore counterparts are not so the power dynamic seems larger

Also stuns just aren't implemented too well

[fresh laurel]

Stuns legit broken

Stunlock bug

[spare badger]

It's fine in teno, maybe a bit long
But not for pachy really

[fresh laurel]

My problem is

[fresh laurel]

Wheres the endlag

Pachy misses charge? Dont worry it will recover fast

[spare badger]

Imo make pachy stun almost none

[fresh laurel]

Teno tail slam spam?

Say that 10 times fast

[spare badger]

No it gets decent endlag but carno can't turn so if can't punish it

[fresh laurel]

Nothing can punish alt hitting pachy

[spare badger]

Slam has a good amount of endlag and they only get to use it 10 times

[fresh laurel]

Why does pachy alt stun?

[spare badger]

I was referring to the right click

[fresh laurel]

Ik

Was also saying alt is stupid good

Make teno use kick more smh

[alpine plover]

fracture kick

[spare badger]

I feel like people will realise the true carni v herbi matchups when we get cera

[fresh laurel]

How so?

[spare badger]

I think other way around
Stun kick
Fracture tail

[spare badger]

We would finally have a carnivore brawler

[fresh laurel]

I might main cera ngl

Was one of my favs in legacy

[alpine plover]

i'm gonna be honest

[spare badger]

A counterpart to pachy and teno

[alpine plover]

i think cera should have little chance against a tenonto

[fresh laurel]

Irl utah might actually fight pachy head on sooo...

Who knows

Its a slower yet stronger ootah

[fresh laurel]

Nah

If carno can somewhat fight teno than cera should have it easier

[alpine plover]

i just don't want ceratorex again

think it's lame

[fresh laurel]

Cerato rex wont happen again

I hope...

Cerato can beat carno sooo... by logic it can fight teno

[spare badger]

Cera won't be able to fight Tenonto alone since it gets knocked down

[alpine plover]

prefer bleeder thrasher bully cera than anything else

[fresh laurel]

Cera grab move on stego looks cool ngl

[spare badger]

I think that's what we are getting

[fresh laurel]

Looks like it gonna rip a chunk out

[alpine plover]

poor cera

[fresh laurel]

Most likely

Hope they dont nerf it into poo again though

[spare badger]

Bleed with the tear attack and make carno fuck off

[fresh laurel]

Since alt turn is fully in

[alpine plover]

i remember someone thought 3 ceratos would be able to kill a stego

[fresh laurel]

Allo bite is weaker than cera
Fite me

[alpine plover]

burn

[fresh laurel]

I mean...

[alpine plover]

[spare badger]

Cera should have a bite force of around 200-250

[fresh laurel]

If cerato commits good

[fresh laurel]

10000000n to makeup for the legacy cera

[alpine plover]

cerato will get stun locked by pachy and die a horrible death

[fresh laurel]

Nah

Cera gonna make pachy back off

[spare badger]

Cera should 2-3 shot it
And that tear should ruin a pachy

[alpine plover]

with how current pachy is now

[fresh laurel]

But pachy breaking cera bones sure

[alpine plover]

cera wouldn't stand a chance

[spare badger]

And cera is agile enough to avoid it better than carno

[fresh laurel]

We dont know how devs will react to all these buff or nerf this and that

[alpine plover]

hopefully they actually fix the little demon when that time comes

[fresh laurel]

So u5 might be a giant rebalance who knows

We get surprises from devs

[alpine plover]

i wouldn't mind a tenonto rework

kinda feels

not sure how to describe it

[spare badger]

Me too
As a tenonto main
I want it's kit to be more diverse

[fresh laurel]

I would die for utah rework
Dont care what yall say about it

[alpine plover]

its a literal horse

you have to love teno

[spare badger]

With a long tail

Also why I say kick should be the best stun

[fresh laurel]

Replace teno with iguanadon ggez

[spare badger]

Iggy too big

[alpine plover]

sucks if you're a solo tenonto though because..y'know the carno megapacks

[fresh laurel]

Iggy not that big...

Iggy could chill with the big herbis

Chill as in be in tier with them or somethin

[alpine plover]

i would honestly remove para and replace it with iggy

[spare badger]

Iggy big

[fresh laurel]

Not big

[alpine plover]

put para is rather popular so

[fresh laurel]

Just call mcdonalds acro

[alpine plover]

doubt iggy will get in

[fresh laurel]

Or alberto

[spare badger]

Look at little teno

[fresh laurel]

It wont for sure

[fresh laurel]

Teno ew

[alpine plover]

they still need to make tenonto bipedal

at least when running

[fresh laurel]

Teno eating stance be like

[alpine plover]

yes

love that eating anim

[fresh laurel]

Teno sniff stance be like

[spare badger]

Teno runs biped and can claw while running

[alpine plover]

i wouldnt mind that if they gave it some overall changes

[fresh laurel]

https://tenor.com/view/the-isle-utah-gif-22957682

Utah reanimation

Fite me

I killed chat

[alpine plover]

💀

[spring dagger]

ah yes another day of deino being a great playable.

wewlad

[dusky surge]

i have literally no idea what that image has to do with deino lmao

like at this point i feel this is just making shit up to criticise deino because what the fuck does that image have to do with it

[mental roost]

It's a cryptic mystery for a non-existent ARG

[ocean wagon]

deino isnt even that bad of a playable. Its the map thats fucking it over!

[fresh laurel]

Well theres also stego...

[ocean wagon]

stego wouldnt be a problem if the map wasnt fucking deino over

@sour halo 🤨

[sour halo]

stego would still be a problem

[ocean wagon]

how so

[sour halo]

it still kills deino?

[sour halo]

I'm not denying that the map is a problem, it is

[ocean wagon]

why the fuck are you trying to take on a full grown stego as a deino. Deino preys on mid tier and smaller tier deinos. If youre getting spanked by a stego, you have more than enogh HP to turn around and run back to the river and heal your damage off.

[sour halo]

they bodycamp and dont let u leave the water?

[ocean wagon]

how is a stego going to body camp a while river

[sour halo]

they cant watercamp a whole river, but they can camp bodies

[ocean wagon]

how is a stego going to body camp something you dragged into the river

why are you inland contesting stegos

youre a deino, not a rex

[sour halo]

what if you didnt drag it into the river?

[dusky surge]

sounds like a map issue because the fact that stegos can completely invalidate a deino at the specific locations it lives means it lives in very few viable locations

[spare badger]

We need very wide, deep rivers and lakes

[ocean wagon]

thank you wavepool, again, deino isnt the issue the map is the issue

if youre going far enough on land where a stego has the chance to run you down and kill you as a deino, you deserve to lose your deino

[sour halo]

the riverbanks are far on land?

[ocean wagon]

"If youre getting spanked by a stego, you have more than enogh HP to turn around and run back to the river and heal your damage off."

[sour halo]

that doesnt stop the bodycamping though

[ocean wagon]

if youre so far in land where a stego can run you down, your deino deserves to die via a stego

[sour halo]

yes

but it still doesn't stop the bodycamping

[ocean wagon]

we're going in circles

[sour halo]

?

ok

[ocean wagon]

also remove oasis. Theres no point in having it

either remove it or add a deep river leading straight to it

[sour halo]

I honestly don't care what the devs do with oasis

[spare badger]

I wouldn't remove oasis, I would remove the diet foods around it. It should be a place for semi aquatics when we get them, imo it isn't a place deinos should be

[sour halo]

If the devs removed oasis, there'd just be another hotspot that replaced it

there will always be a hotspot

[spare badger]

U2 had no real hotspots

[sour halo]

I didn't play during U2

[spare badger]

They had amazing player spread it was great

[ocean wagon]

hm, i agree on that. But i'd remove it until we got things like sucho or austro

[sour halo]

I'll take ur word for it

[sour halo]

why sucho

what does it bring to the game

[spare badger]

Sucho imo is one of the best picks for the current roster

[sour halo]

why?

[ocean wagon]

bc its a semi aqautic theyre going to add to the game

[sour halo]

so is spino

Tell me what makes sucho different from spino, except being smaller

[spare badger]

Culls sub deino populations
Gives us a large predator so carno isn't the apex of the ecosystem
Can scare bodygaurding herbis off bodies (except stego)
And easy to put in cause of fish

[sour halo]

can it though?

[ocean wagon]

aye man, i stand in the small circle of sucho hate.

[sour halo]

lol

[ocean wagon]

i just said sucho bc theyre going to add it before spino

[spare badger]

They will have different niches and probably live in different places

[sour halo]

Allo or another mid tier could easily do that

along with spino

[sour halo]

the isle isnt about niches

[spare badger]

Not culling sub deinos

Spino is wayyy to big to put in right now

[sour halo]

ik

but what does sucho add that's unique that spino won't add?

?

[spare badger]

They will have different niches, different playstyles

[sour halo]

how

bc, you can't predict how the map will be by the time sucho rolls out

so what if its the same rivers

[spare badger]

I can't
I also can't predict specific niches either
What's your point

[sour halo]

that sucho is small spino

[spare badger]

I would say that spino would be more aquatic but then I remember the spino model

Sucho also deals with completely different animals, being a completely different size range

[sour halo]

ok, but couldn't spino also deal with those animals to the same effectiveness

[ocean wagon]

i am curious too, because as i see it spino is just a bigger version of sucho. It cant be compared to alberto-Trex niche bc alberto and rex although both tyrannosaurs, hunt two totally different groups of dinos. Sucho-Spino niche, the literally eat the same exact things

[spare badger]

My assumption is their habitat
Sucho will probably inhabit shallows and stuff
While spino will go for swamps and shit
Since apparently spino will be the bane of Deinos it'll go wherever they are

[ocean wagon]

well whats stopping spino from just going in shallows to null any risk of fighting gangs of deinos? They would just out compete sucho

[spare badger]

Sucho will be the grizzly bear of the isle
Living in the shallows, and will mess any mid tier up if you engage them

[spare badger]

My best guess is diets

[ocean wagon]

but they'll both eat fish though

[spare badger]

Remember spino is twice the size of sucho it'll need something more substantial

[ocean wagon]

i really dont see sucho or spino as active hunters to things like para/maia/teno/etc

[sour halo]

stego

[ocean wagon]

and i dont see spino winning against most of the apex herbies either

[sour halo]

[spare badger]

How I saw it is
Bary as the more terrestrial one
Sochi the in between
Spino the more aquatic one
And then spinos model came out

[sour halo]

fr?

[ocean wagon]

whats spino going to do to a shant or a trike

[sour halo]

i mean i can see spino losing to shant

[spare badger]

Spino will prob be the strongest apex carni

Spino is pretty big in this

[sour halo]

that is purely an assumption

[spare badger]

It is
All of this is

[sour halo]

yeah

pretty much

[spare badger]

But if spino is 9.1 tonnes and sucho is 4.2 they will occupy totally different niches and playstyles

Spino will probably be fighting cherry and shit

Sucho down slapping allos

[ocean wagon]

thats only if allos fight it

[spare badger]

That's 1 example

[ocean wagon]

allo can be swapped for any mid tier

sucho will most likely be the slowest mid tier

[spare badger]

Spino and cherry is one example
What's your point exactly?

[spare badger]

Definitely

Sucho will probably be a brawler like tenonto

[ocean wagon]

Spino and cherry, maybe. I see cherry being faster. hopefully

[spare badger]

Cherry will definitely be faster isn't it related to galli

[sour halo]

honestly all this speculation is pointless, at the rate the updates are coming out, it'll be 5 years before spino is in evrima

sad truth

[spare badger]

They will probably come faster once the mechanics were in but eh

[sour halo]

idk

diet system feels like a failure to me

[spare badger]

A good idea but poorly implemented

[ocean wagon]

my point exactly, spino and sucho arent active hunters like alberto and rex. Their main source of food will have to be fish. Then that leads us to, spino being objectively the better fisher based on its powerhouse stats

[sour halo]

yeah, it just made carnivores only eat certain things, not stopping the kosing, and it made bodyguarding that much more of a pain in the ass

and it didn't even stop afk growing

[spare badger]

That's like saying para and shant are the same

I mean they are similar

But doesn't mean they will be the same to play as/against

[sour halo]

elite fish 🗿

lol

[spare badger]

Will definitely not be able to sustain a spino

[ocean wagon]

didnt dondi consider removing shant because para and shant were so similar 💀

[sour halo]

wdym

[ocean wagon]

the whole "apex para" shmuck

[sour halo]

oh

[spare badger]

People want to remove Alberto cause rex and Dondi said "who am I to deny them of choice?" Or something like that

[sour halo]

OH i thought u said ptera

[ocean wagon]

i-

[sour halo]

lmao

[spare badger]

Flying shant

[sour halo]

wtf

be funny tho

[ocean wagon]

in alberto- trex niche, alberto is waaay faster and capable of catching things rex cant

[sour halo]

concept art of shant with ptera wings

[spare badger]

Unfolds

[sour halo]

and it just drops into a rex 😂

[ocean wagon]

and vice versa, rex is waaay stronger and can kill things alberto cant

[spare badger]

Same with sucho and spino
Spino is much stronger
Sucho will be faster

[ocean wagon]

how much faster is sucho really going to be though

[spare badger]

If sucho was slower it would be fucking daft

[ocean wagon]

its a sucho

[spare badger]

Apparently sucho could actually move pretty fast

I remember talking about it last year

Pretty sure it was 35km/h or so

Not a carno but respectable

[ocean wagon]

sucho might be fast enough to out run apexes bc thats all it really needs to do. But then again, apexes arent really known for their speed

[spare badger]

I want sucho to be a good kill stealer

It would be fun

[ocean wagon]

a respectable speed would be allo, not too fast not too slow

[spare badger]

Not make much sense though

I mean this can also be applied to Acro and Giga too

And pachyrhino and styraco

[ocean wagon]

oh for sure

[spare badger]

But there are 100% ways to make them unique to warrant playing

[ocean wagon]

ig time will tell

[sour halo]

yeah

[spare badger]

I hope so cause i would rather play sucho over spino

[hollow canyon]

That's a Sucho that's much smaller than the in-game Sucho. That speed estimate comes from Larramendi and he estimates the animal at 2.5t.

[spare badger]

I see

[hollow canyon]

And to be precise it was 35.9km/h so you can round that up to 36km/h

[spare badger]

What was added first, sucho or spino?

Ik Acro came before giga

[hollow canyon]

I will try to find out from what I recall I was told that Sucho was in the game before Bary.

[spare badger]

Sucho was in before bary definitely

[hollow canyon]

Sucho was first out of the three

it was in the game before Spino

[spare badger]

Thought so

[spring dagger]

gib sucho

pls

[dusky surge]

sucho would be nice

[fast canopy]

Is that you, the Pachy?

[hollow canyon]

Weird, I thought the reason for that was to make Pachy a better ambush hunter.

[placid reef]

no, making pachys attack silent was the reason

[craggy apex]

if you are not paying attention pachy is absolutely horrifying to fight

[hollow canyon]

I'd say that in very many cases it's awful to fight even if you are paying attention(as long as Pachy is paying attention too). This animal overall just needs some changes, both buffs and nerfs.

Idk why anyone's downvoting the feedback suggesting its juvie and sub getting a speed buff. This is the slowest terrestrial animal upon spawning into the game... for no good reason..

During the MT it was stated that this is caused by he fact that it doesn't have animations for its juvenile but Punch now said that those are already in the game(despite the fact that the dinosaur seems to be moving exactly the same as before).

[rapid flicker]

Yes 👋

[spare badger]

How big was cera in legacy?

Hold on it was 2.25 tons what??

[dusky surge]

too big

[hollow canyon]

Yea Cerato was 2.25t iirc

It was oversized model-wise

do note that the weights in the legacy weren't supposed to reflect how much the animal in question would weigh. Dilo weighed 1200kg while Utah weighed 1100kg

[dusky surge]

legacy didnt know what to do with cerato without making it dogshit tier, since combat was so reliant on simply biting and who was heavier, so they just artificially inflated cerato's weight

[hollow canyon]

Rex and Giga were both too light

Nah, Cerato in the legacy simply got overnerfed during its rework

[dusky surge]

bigger animals were too light and smaller animals were too heavy

1 ton utahs and less than 3 ton suchos

[hollow canyon]

Sucho weighed 3.6t

which is incidentally its real life weight

even a bit on the higher side

[dusky surge]

i thought suchos were significantly larger than that

[hollow canyon]

Nah, irl Sucho weighs something around 3.4 or 3.6t

3.6t after the density changes I think

3395kg was the gdi for it from prior to the density changes

[dusky surge]

the issue i found that lead to the utterly absurd weightings was the weight = damage thing. Weight directly playing into damage meant they had to do some seriously wacky shit to make it still balanced

also everyone W+M1ing as the only form of combat didn't help

[hollow canyon]

It was fine but definitely required the weights to be completely fictional as they had an effect on the damage calculations

[dusky surge]

exactly

then you had the giant cera because without that weight it would be one of the worst animals flat out

and it was already bad

[hollow canyon]

Nah, Cerato was in general just badly balanced

it was literally too big - not just weight and health-wise

its model was also too big

its issues were mainly the(almost) complete lack of ambush, non-existent bleed resistance and borderline 0 bleed on its attacks

this animal had an ambush multiplier of x1.1... that's pretty much nothing

it also lasted only 8 seconds iirc

the only animal that you could catch that way was a narcoleptic Dilo that just happened to fall asleep right in front of you

It had a bleed of... 8

and the lowest bleed resistance in the game(along with Allosaurus, but Allo had more hp so it was relatively better off - also better bleed healing)

Cerato could've been balanced with no issues, it just required some work

[dusky surge]

generally legacy's mechanics were just extremely weirdly balanced. I'm glad they started standardising shit with EVRIMA because it makes combat less of a weird dice roll as to what exactly will happen, since universal mechanics in legacy were basically never consistent

[spare badger]

*They are thought to be but until the new fossils are described the current specimen is about 3.6t (speculated to be a subadult but we dont know for sure)

[hollow canyon]

It's not really speculated to be a subadult

The current consensus is that it's an adult animal

[spare badger]

Could've sworn it was thought to be a subadult

[hollow canyon]

the only reason why it was thought to be subadult was a comment from Paul Sereno made in an interview back in the '90s

he said "it could probably grow a couple feet"

[spare badger]

I see

[hollow canyon]

the issue is - nothing that we actually know of indicates that

Sucho does not seem to bear any characteristics that would suggest that it wasn't an adult animal

could it grow bigger? Perhaps? I don't know if anyone ever did a proper osteological analysis of it to figure out its age

we do know that certain adult theropods could still grow bigger after reaching their adult size

so who knows?

[spare badger]

We just have to wait until the new fossils are described I guess
If the rumors that sucho could grow bigger than rex are true that would be cool

Has anyone actually looked at the inside of the bones to see if they were fully developed or not?

[hollow canyon]

I'm not sure about proper osteological analysis as I said but I am not aware of anyone stating that the animal has features typical of juvenile animals

[spare badger]

I remember they did that for dracorex and stygy when they proved they were just juvie pachies

[hollow canyon]

Yea

[spare badger]

An old dino doc

[hollow canyon]

Also - there's more Sucho specimens from what I've been told

[spare badger]

By Horner

[hollow canyon]

it's just that all the others are smaller

[spare badger]

I see

[hollow canyon]

and they are stuck in Sereno's basement

as for Sucho getting bigger than T.rex - hard doubt

Longer? Sure, no problem

but heavier? Yea, that's not happening

[spare badger]

Not heavier lmao
Longer I could see it

Tyrannosaurids are thick as hell

[hollow canyon]

Yea it could definitely be longer

wouldn't even be particularly hard

it's as long as Stan despite weighing less than half Stan's weight

[spare badger]

I could imagine it

Either way I don't really think anyone would mind if sucho got an upsize in game

[hollow canyon]

It kind of needs one imo

at least weight wise

[spare badger]

Tyrannosaurus especially is known to keep growing once reaching maturity so who knows if it's true for other therapods

[hollow canyon]

It would be pretty lame to have the animal presumably taking some ~4h of growth with a base diet get deleted with a single click by Deino

[spare badger]

And judging by suchos shared Environment with sarco and the like a rex length sucho isn't hard to imagine

[hollow canyon]

ergo - Sucho should be outside of Deino's grab range in terms of weight

[spare badger]

100%

No question

[hollow canyon]

I think the Sucho on Nova's chart at 4.2t is a sensible size of it

[spare badger]

Lemme grab it

[hollow canyon]

big enough to have a decent advantage over other mid tiers

large enough not get instagibbed by Deino

[hollow canyon]

while also not threading upon Acro's territory of the big bulky terrestrial predator

[spare badger]

4.2 seems reasonable for it
Easily squash any mid tier, but can escape any larger animal

Cerato on steroids if you will

[dusky surge]

i believe the size chart puts it at 5tons, well outside deino's range

[hollow canyon]

It used to

Nova downsized it

[spare badger]

4.2 in the image

[dusky surge]

4200kg works

[hollow canyon]

cause the Sucho that he uses there would have to be much larger for it to be 5t

as in - the animal would have to be larger in terms of dimensions than it's on that chart

[dusky surge]

suchos should be vibing in shallow waters anyways, but it still makes sense for it to need to be safe from a deino lunge

[spare badger]

5 tons? I could see that, although that may encroach on acro

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it should be that large

[spare badger]

I would say that's the maximum reasonable size they could give it

[hollow canyon]

4.2t is just the right place where it's big enough to bully mid tiers without being absurdly upsized

[dusky surge]

it def should have some bully/brawler aspect to it honestly

[hollow canyon]

I might be wrong here but 5t Sucho would likely have to be longer than Rex

[spare badger]

Anywhere from 4-5 tons would work well for sucho

[dusky surge]

generally fishing-based animals should struggle in any endurance-based hunt, be it due to unsuitable physique in terms of combat or in terms of movement

[spare badger]

When I think of sucho I think of grizzly bears and a cerato on steroids

[dusky surge]

sucho having a bear niche is exactly what i'd like to see honestly

sits near shallows, grabs fish, beats things that get too close to it to death with extremely oversized claws

[spare badger]

As my name suggests, sucho should have almost no negative mobility when wading, so it can easy get away from other animals by wading, no need to swim in deino territory

I can imagine it stealing kills that occur too close to a river

[dusky surge]

that too

[spare badger]

Just waltz up into a carno pack and drag their kill into shallows

Or an Allo pack

[dusky surge]

if a carnivore can afford to survive without ever needing to hunt (cera able to eat horrid fucking rotting meat, sucho/spino able to eat fish), I feel their abilities to actually hunt do not need to be as high

[spare badger]

(this is why I want sucho for this current roster)

[dusky surge]

legacy sucho would've been so much cooler if fish existed

[spare badger]

Spino will prob be more active since it's over 9 tons and fish won't do much for it

[spare badger]

It would

Although spino will probably tangle with deino and cherry more often, since fish won't sustain it for long
Fish would be the equivalent of grazing for spino

[dusky surge]

@versed flume steg's head takes more than every other playable

[versed flume]

Really. Well personally I think it's not enough damage then

[dusky surge]

i mean

steg has a lot of health

but steg does 100% take more damage than every other playable when it comes to headbites

[versed flume]

Well damn. My only argument is Carnos can't really bite a stego down with it taking forever. But stego is not in Carno diet and deinos aren't really post to mess with stegos cause they are ment to be water bound.

[fresh laurel]

I mean carno vs stego shouldnt really be a thing...

[dusky surge]

carno v stego is not a fight that's ever meant to happen

[versed flume]

Yeah I mentioned that

[fresh laurel]

Deino needs more things i guess to stop it from going land gator again back when it could kill stego if it does get a buff

[hollow canyon]

@versed rune It's not a biteforce buff nor a new attack that Carno really needs. It needs either buffs to agility or acceleration+stamina.

[dusky surge]

i'd prefer the new attack or a change to charge to assist in ambushes

[versed rune]

Not really to be honest. If we want this thing to be an assassin class it should have the kit to dispatch enemies quickly. Which means higher damage and stronger attacks. Give carno more stam without buffing it and you’re just making it play like legacy carno, weak as hell and has to take 20 years to bring down an opponent

[dusky surge]

headswing sounds cool and works well for the bastard

[hollow canyon]

You can throw all the damage you want on it, this animal doesn't play like an "assassin" because it's loud and takes forever to start going, it needs to have its acceleration increased to be a proper ambush hunter

Then again - I don't think Carno is or should be an ambush hunter

[versed rune]

Plus, if we give carno a faster trot there’s no need for a stam buff, because players won’t be incentivized to sprint everywhere and would instead encourage conserving stam, which is how teno works

[hollow canyon]

Being an ambush hunter is completely counterintuitive to Carno's identity

[versed rune]

Then what should carno be if not an assassin

[placid reef]

chaser
if we to use terms

[hollow canyon]

An animal that runs down its prey items in the plains - if you're out in the open against a Carno as an animal smaller than it - you've already messed up and you have to make it into the treeline before you die.

[placid reef]

carno should chase its prey, it needing to outmanuever it untill they get to a forest/ other biome

[hollow canyon]

^

[dusky surge]

isnt that just legacy carno

[hollow canyon]

or until Carno runs out of stamina

[versed rune]

Yes lol and it was vile

[placid reef]

carno rn needs to have a bush or smth to hind behind/ in to work as a plains ambush hunter

[dusky surge]

thats legit just legacy carno

[hollow canyon]

No, the legacy Carno you just sidestepped and bit back

until it went down

[versed rune]

If carno is gonna be a “chase down pursuit predator” then you may as well make it allo

[dusky surge]

true

[placid reef]

legacy carno turned like a spaceship on land, a bit harder to compare to that

[hollow canyon]

I think Carno needs to have its agility increased so that it actually poses a threat out in the open

[dusky surge]

i actually love the high speed being used for scaring the FUCK out of people before they can blink

its so fun

[versed rune]

Like I’m a carno main I’m sure you know but I seriously don’t think more agility is what carno needs

[placid reef]

thats just carno, nothing chanegs if it has to chase its prey, its faster than it, they need to outmanuever it

[dusky surge]

i'd buff charge to be an "ambush move" in certain circumstances rather than relying on like 3 seconds of windup

[hollow canyon]

Idk how anyone can be scared of Carno

[versed rune]

Carno already handles so much better than legacy

And the drift helps it a ton in certain situations

If you wanna make carno scary you make it stronger

Because you CAN dodge it, but if you fuck up then you’re gonna get hit by a truck

[hollow canyon]

I just see it coming and go "oh... another one, let me look for "a" and "d" on my keyboard... where are they... oh here we go" :presses whichever key and looks at Carno try to land a single attack:

[placid reef]

thats not much of a compliment https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/778350416831709314/936643901001977896

[hollow canyon]

is this a joke?

Carno is much worse than it was on the legacy atm

[dusky surge]

carno can be one of the scariest predators if it pulls off the ambush. I had a friend SLAM his keyboard after being utterly yeeted by a carno charge in MT (no way asking for return of MT carno, just saying that the carno's ambush can be awesome if used well)

[hollow canyon]

It turns worse it has just about the same acceleration and it also has much worse stamina

Carno on the legacy>Carno in Evrima

[dusky surge]

as someone who recently went back and PLAYED legacy carno

no it is not legacy is SO MUCH worse

[hollow canyon]

Legacy is far better lol

[versed rune]

No because I have had next to zero issues handling it. If you can aim your attacks with precision it’s fine. But it doesn’t have the damage output to make it effective right now

[dusky surge]

I mean, if you like waiting the whole day/night cycle to get 100% stam after running out, yea carno is great in legacy

[hollow canyon]

Yea I also have had next to zero issues handling it - it just got clapped the moment I hit it once as a Tenonto

Carno's trash in the legacy

it's just that in Evrima it's worse

[dusky surge]

i have to disagree

[versed rune]

And I know typically realism doesn’t have to be exactly on the nose, but an abelisaurid should have high damage output

[placid reef]

balance is more important, if not we just have rex as the best large dino in the game basically

[versed rune]

To be honest that’s a tenonto problem because the teno doesn’t have to use any brainpower once it hits a tail slam

[hollow canyon]

You can disagree all you want but that's the way it is - the only reason why Carno might seem better in Evrima is because it's stuck with a bunch of smaller animals, if you have the same roster in Evrima as you do in the legacy Carno would be on the rock bottom

[dusky surge]

EVRIMA carno just feels better to control in my experience. A headswing and an ambush variant for the charge is all I really want for the animal honestly

[hollow canyon]

Idk how it feels better to control in your experience if it turns worse, has worse stamina and similar speed

[versed rune]

And that’s why you give it a power buff, so it can compete with cera/allo/bary/alberto when they arrive

[hollow canyon]

that's not what Carno is supposed to be doing though?

[versed rune]

Carno is right in the middle of those four as far as size goes so it needs to compete with em

[hollow canyon]

It's supposed to be a small game hunter

[placid reef]

cera is much smaller, same for barry, also biome dif, and allo is much larger

[hollow canyon]

not an animal that tries to duke it out with Allo

[versed rune]

Small game hunter is a meme, please stop lol

[placid reef]

allo is close to almost double, and cera and bary are at max 1.3t

[dusky surge]

I love the drift, it feels cool to drift from a high speed sprint, the turn speed is fine, makes the animal have a fair weakness, I just wish the charge and alt-bite actually existed

[placid reef]

also for cera and bary, those do not live in plains, so no, carno wont be interacting with those 2 and allo just much bigger

[hollow canyon]

it's a meme because the balance team has turned it into a meme

Carno was just fine in update 3

[dusky surge]

Carno was fucking boring in update 3 imho

[hollow canyon]

Oh, you like drifting around, cool

[versed rune]

Carno had higher damage in update 3

[hollow canyon]

It had better agility in update 3

[versed rune]

Also true

[hollow canyon]

the damage was irrelevant

it needed as many hits to kill a Utah

[versed rune]

But everything else was faster too

[dusky surge]

i prefer update 4 agility to update 3 agility

[hollow canyon]

Yes, Wavepoole, you also think it's better in Evrima than in the legacy so I mean..

[dusky surge]

it is

i dont even know why you like legacy carno more

[versed rune]

The issue with update 3 carno was, while fun, the charge was ass

The high damage output was nice

But remove some of that bite damage (it had 350 so plenty to spare) and move it to the charge and I think it would’ve been better

[hollow canyon]

I don't, I despise it

which is the reason why I hate the Evrima one so much

it's more of a meme than the legacy one

it has all the weaknesses of the legacy one without any of its strengths

[dusky surge]

it really isnt honestly, it's not as garbage as you seem to see it

[hollow canyon]

it wasn't

if you wanted to kill a Tenonto you had to land the charge on it

[versed rune]

Legacy carno is what happens when an animal is designed to do something specific, then people complain about it being able to do that thing then it gets nerfed

[hollow canyon]

That's... exactly the case with Evrima Carno too

[dusky surge]

except its resting stam regens MUCH faster, it has a charge and has superior acceleration and agility. Legacy carno's agility was the worst fucking shit ever

[hollow canyon]

funny how that works

[versed rune]

Blame people for crying about it’s damage

[hollow canyon]

it doesn't have superior acceleration, its agility is outright worse

[dusky surge]

try playing legacy carno again because idk how you despise it if you apparently just let it off the hook for its clear issues that EVRIMA improved upon

[hollow canyon]

I despise it, I just despise the hot garbage that this animal is in Evrima more

[versed rune]

Evrima carno is underdeveloped but it is in no way worse than legacy

That standard also applies to dryo utah and stego too

[hollow canyon]

It turns just as badly while running while also having a worse walking turn rate, this animal is just outright worse than in the legacy

[versed rune]

All superior to legacy in every way

[dusky surge]

have you seen the walking turn rate for legacy carno

[hollow canyon]

its acceleration is comparable, the animal is just bad in Evrima

[versed rune]

I agree carno is kinda ass rn

[dusky surge]

you stand next to a cliff and you're dead lmao, you ain't turning around

[spring dagger]

wew

[versed rune]

But again I think that can be solved with a damage increase and a new attack

[hollow canyon]

Yes, because there's no standing turn rate, if you had to rely on walking turn to get away from a cliff you'd die all the same in Evrima because this animal can't turn if its life depended on it in this game

[spring dagger]

I mean the community was petty enough to nerf it to 175 instead of keeping it at 200 which is perfectly fine for a carno

[hollow canyon]

200 was fine for Carno

[spring dagger]

Absolutely

[hollow canyon]

175 is ok too, it's not the damage that's the issue

[versed rune]

Honestly

[hollow canyon]

it's literally everything else

[versed rune]

It could’ve went up to 220

But 200 was nice and round

[hollow canyon]

it could go up to 200, it wouldn't change anything about this animal

[spring dagger]

The one bite difference is significant in the teno match up honestly, other than that i agree with you

[dusky surge]

alt-attack should be relevant to the animal's toolkit and not an afterthought for the animal. Carno's alt-bite is an example of an alt-bite that feels meaningless

[spring dagger]

I wish they gave it a side-ways shove

[hollow canyon]

It feels meaningless because it got nerfed to the ground

[versed rune]

“turn around bite lole”

[spring dagger]

so that way it could actually fucking chase small game

[hollow canyon]

idk why anyone would even use this garbage

[versed rune]

this has happened like 5 times to carno throughout the games history

[hollow canyon]

This attack is so slow and telegraphed that only a mentally challenged person that decides to stand next to you and mash lmb can get hit with it

[hollow canyon]

Yea I know

[versed rune]

Carno functions well, but idiots who don’t know how to juke die to it, they complain, and the devs listen for some reason and nerf it to shit

[hollow canyon]

it's a goddamn trend with this animal

[dusky surge]

carnos alt-bite SHOULD be slow, but it should have a purpose separate from its main bite

[versed rune]

As a carno main literally since 2016 it’s annoying as shit

[hollow canyon]

I personally wouldn't even care, I don't even like this animal particularly, it's just infuriating knowing it happens again and again

Especially that it was fine in update 3

you could easily escape from it as a Utah if you actually cared to live instead of fighting it

[dusky surge]

in the case of utah, the alt-bite has good distance and damage and can be continued into movement
in the case of teno, a ton more damage and bleed for low stam cost
in the case of pachy, STUNS AND DAMAGE FOR DAYS
in the case of deino, a very quick defensive attack for the cost of a lot of stamina

carno's alt-bite just doesn't have a purpose, and I don't like the idea of it just being fast again

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto could win that fight if it played it correctly

matter of fact it should have been winning that fight

[dusky surge]

carno being a good brawler fucking sucked

it was so lame

[hollow canyon]

it wasn't a good brawler?

what are you talking about?

[versed rune]

Pachy mains explaining why being able to kill a utah in a single combo is fair and balanced

[dusky surge]

the speed of the alt-bite helped it out tons back when it was quick

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto clapped Carno with ease if Carno tried brawling with it

I don't even remember which patch Carno had the fast altbite on, it was too good back then but at least it was useful

I'd have left it at that speed and increased the stam cost if anything

at least the ability would have a use

[versed rune]

God no that fast alt bite was aids

[hollow canyon]

atm it's just a waste of stam and a noobtrap

atm it's worse than that - it's just a trap for noobs who are all the people that actually use this garbage attack

[versed rune]

The altbite made (and still makes) carno mirror matchups hell

Oh and that’s another thing

Since carno has such shit damage, it favors idiots who spam click in carno v carno mirror matchups

Carno has the most miserable mirror matchup out of all of the evrima dinos with the exception of deino

[dusky surge]

a headswing would be a good way to fucking clap an over-confident pachy/utah and follow up with a quick death. Staggers on carno wouldn't be wrong, it could be a decent damage move and would still keep it fighting animals its size or smaller since you could simply set the staggers to creatures smaller than it. As long as it's slow enough on cooldown to allow intervals between stuns. Quick start up, slow cool down. Bad on whiff and against big shit and great on hit against small thing

[dusky surge]

For cannibalistic dinos, these animals have extremely lame cannibal combat

[spring dagger]

Cannibal matchups are just legacy rex match up

1 bite and you die. you can't outplay it once you've been bit.

The only option is to run really, or be in a group

[versed rune]

Right???? It currently forces a facetank most of the time

[spring dagger]

Eitherway the problem persists if we dont enable a complex moveset with different combos to pull off with button presses

[dusky surge]

a headswing could actually create dynamic gameplay for carno v carno honestly. Headswing gives huge damage and stagger, allowing for easy follow up and damage, but baiting out a headswing allows for a punishment

[spring dagger]

Each dino should have different movesets available to it, in the case of stego it's swings can be aimed horizontally, but no upward swing is available.

[versed rune]

This

[hollow canyon]

I think that would be absolutely cancerous to deal with, I don't think Carno should have attacks like that which would allow it to CC things.

[dusky surge]

it has a charge

literally that's its main ability

[hollow canyon]

Charge is not comparable

[spring dagger]

I think it should CC small things that make tight turns so you can bait them into turning and then just smack them

[versed rune]

@dusky surge you should mention this headswing idea to the rest of the QA team if you haven’t already

[hollow canyon]

at all, you can't use that repeatedly

[spring dagger]

Cause rn a fucking utah runs circles around a carno

[dusky surge]

you know what, i might just do that

carno headswing basically should have a fast startup but slow cooldown, so you can be punished for being the dreaded "alt-bite carno". Fuck alt-bite carnos, lunatics fight like that move is actually good

[versed rune]

It’s always funny coming across a carno alt bite spammer

It’s only really good for trading or baiting a cocky teno that’s riding your butt

[dusky surge]

it is extremely funny that is true

[versed rune]

you can tell most alt biters think they’re good too ☠️

[dusky surge]

its the ultimate monkey way of playing carno. You can literally hear the ape screams behind the screen

[versed rune]

LMAO

[dusky surge]

its like my fave teno, the "teno who thinks he's a carno". Had a teno who hacked the game to bushhack and proceeded to use this knowledge to chase juvi utahs while spamming M1

no alt-bite, no kick, no tail slam

only bite as tenonto

he was a fucking enigma

[spring dagger]

I mean the movesets in general need fucking work

They are woefully outdated for the pace of the combat

[versed rune]

Reminds me of the time four tenos tried to run me down as a carno and once they got into the perfect spot I fought them all and somehow beat them all

It’s not even that I was good

They were just really. Realllllly bad

[dusky surge]

its really incredible how bad tenos can play the game

[spring dagger]

Its incredible how pachys can too tbh

Herbis in general now honestly.

[versed rune]

I think a lot of the clownery in evrima is because it’s more nuanced compared to legacy

And a lot of people still have yet to get how to fight effectively in it

[dusky surge]

True

[versed rune]

A utah tried to legacy assride my carno a few weeks ago

I just laughed

Then proceeded to gut it

[dusky surge]

i saw a video where carnos killed deinos because they all didn't know how to alt-bite

so they just kinda sat there like big dumb idiots

[versed rune]

I think I saw something similar

[dusky surge]

and retreated to the water after the carnos had sufficiently kicked their ass

[spring dagger]

ashame.

[versed rune]

It was posted in videos and streams not too long ago

[spring dagger]

Woulda loved to see the 5+ hours gone to waste

[versed rune]

My friend and I watched it in vc and were dumbfounded

[dusky surge]

i love watching people be bad at the game then call the game bad

[versed rune]

The crocs looked like they had stam to spare too

[spring dagger]

The game is pretty shocking atm tbh

But i aint got nothing else to do until elden ring

[versed rune]

The thing is this game isn’t even skillful

[dusky surge]

people not being able to adapt to a world where they cant sit on a tail and bite to win is extremely funny to me

[versed rune]

It’s just basic movement prediction and knowing how well YOUR animal moves vs your opponent

And knowing how much it takes to kill somethin

[dusky surge]

im not going to say what games im waiting for because then people will make fun of me

also utilising your special abilities

[versed rune]

I don’t mean to sound arrogant when I say this but I find it so disheartening when I see a player do something so obviously stupid, because then I’m reminded that that is, in fact, another human behind the screen, who thought to themselves, “yes, THIS is a good idea”

[dusky surge]

sometimes i just let people get away with stupid shit if they aren't hurting anyone

[versed rune]

True it is very funny

“The isle is a horror game”

[dusky surge]

it is sometimes and other times absolutely not

i have audibly screamed from some encounters in this game i will not lie

particularly deino

deino is a fucking nightmare beast

humans were actually pretty good with the horror shit, was running down a bank and a giant fuck-off croc just walks from a bush into the water right in front of me and actually scares the shit out of me

[versed rune]

I haven’t been ambushed by a deino since update 3

I almost miss it

[dusky surge]

true but they still manage to find away to sneak up on me. They don't kill, mind you, but they do scare

[versed rune]

Key word almost because I’d rather not instantaneously die for needing a resource

It’s those damn bushes at oasis

[dusky surge]

i actually do miss it lmao, started drinking from unsafe waters and swimming in them just to tempt fate, but they're all at oasis

[versed rune]

This is why we need Riverside wallowing

Gives deinos a thing to do

[dusky surge]

either that or make mud pools big enough for deinos to fuck around in then allow them to plop themselves in there like big muddy idiots

mud monster

Concept: Wallowing near rivers but it covers you in mud for less time and also only works near deep rivers. No go with shallows. You run the risk to wallow or you can try and rest it out

[versed rune]

Maybe??? I did like finding random little mud splotches throughout the map though

They can always come in clutch

[dusky surge]

It is cool finding those

[versed rune]

I feel at that point it’s the job of the predators to know where their prey could potentially go to get mud and escape

[rapid flicker]

@hexed sorrel Your issue with the delay on canceling your eating animation is something that works both ways. So i think it cancels itself out here. A Carno is just as likely to be ambushed by a pachy as it is the other way around. Its just that the pachy dies when he is hit with a charge 🙂

[slim dragon]

@warm lagoon Are you saying a deino's bite to the head should oneshot stego ?

[warm lagoon]

Not necessarily

This is still a game

But if we're talking realistically, a well placed shot would do it

[slim dragon]

Stego already takes increased damage compared to all other playables when hit to the head tho

[hollow canyon]

Deino doesn't have a higher biteforce than Rex

[warm lagoon]

Depends on whose data you use

[hollow canyon]

Just based on the fossils of their prey we can see that Tyrannosaurus had a more damaging bite

And exerted greater pressures

Deinosuchus has a tonne of ridiculously high biteforce estimates done by people upscaling the biteforces of extant crocodillians

relatively to the size of Deinosuchus

which results in absurdly high values of its biteforce

As far as the actual evidence goes Deinosuchus seemingly didn't bite as hard as Tyrannosaurus rex or Purussaurus

[warm lagoon]

Well if we look at biteforce data from crocodilians there is an extremely clear correlation between body mass and bite force. For my data I used Dr. Erickson's data on the biteforce of crocodilians

[hollow canyon]

Which are the two competitors for the highest biteforce among the terrestrial animals

Yea, I've figured you used Erickson and Gignac

[slim dragon]

Square cube law moment

Wait I don't know how it's named in english

[hollow canyon]

however the study itself states that the biteforce estimate for Deinosuchus is "tenuous"

I've read that thing like 2 years ago

"(Note: the upper bound bite-force estimate for Deinosuchus riograndensis is more tenuous since the largest known fossil crocodilian specimens greatly exceed the neontological size range studied here.)" This is from Erickson and Gignac

[warm lagoon]

Fair, thank you for correcting me, but that isn't rlly the point of my post

What do you think would happen if an adult deinosuchus bit an adult stegosaurus squarely on the head

[hollow canyon]

It's fine, I don't disagree that it should be more even of a match up

I think it's too Stego favoured

it should be slightly in favour of Stego but not by much I think

[placid reef]

Frosty back at it

[hollow canyon]

i.e. if you pull of an ambush on Stego's head and start chomping at it you should be winning it generally

[rapid flicker]

Deino has the edge in water, stego has the edge on land. as it should be

Also Deino is an ambush predator

[warm lagoon]

I mean, if a stego catches a deino on land it should be 100% fucked, but I feel like a deino should absolutely win if it gets a drop on the stego and a clean bite to the head

[rapid flicker]

The problem is that the deinos weapon is his head and the stegos weapon is its tail.

but i think you still win if you get a 2-3 bites in on stego head

incase of an ambush

[spare badger]

Deinos bite is temp nerfed cause of the roster so that won't happen for a while

[hollow canyon]

Yea... that seems to be the conclusion that certain parts of the community have reached but there's absolutely no evidence that this is actually the case

[brittle dirge]

Pretty sure this info came from one of the devs a long while back

[fresh laurel]

Deino tail attack?

I mean crocodillians now can tail smack

And a tail that big gotta be doing something

[fresh laurel]

What would its buffed bite be?

Same as rex or more?

Less than rex?

[slim dragon]

I highly doubt Deino's bite damage will ever go as high as rex's

[fresh laurel]

Thought a gator biting as a big as deino would get to rex levels

[brittle dirge]

More than likely less cause then at that point why even have the grab? Lol

[fresh laurel]

True lmao

What if deino ambushed a rex?

[slim dragon]

According to most recent studies, it wouldn't, actually
But anyway for simple balance reasons deino should never have a bite higher than a rex's