balance-feedback-discussion

[fresh laurel]

Its just the stun that lets teno slam again

[hollow canyon]

Headshot does oneshot a Utah and that's what the whole discussion is about

[fresh laurel]

Never been one shotted then

[hollow canyon]

doesn't change the fact that Utah can be oneshot by it, this isn't some grand conspiracy, the damage values state that clearly and the fact that people complain about being oneshot confirms that it is possible

Tenonto deals 360 damage with the tailslam

Utah has 450 hp

Headshot on Utah has a x1.5 multiplier

[fresh laurel]

Damn

One shot by a mid tier?

[hollow canyon]

I mean... a really, really small mid tier I guess

Tenonto is absolutely tiny compared to things like Allosaurus or Albertosaurus not to mention Suchomimus

[alpine plover]

I wouldn’t be too sure of using the word “small” for tenonto, almost the same size as our carno

tenonto is rather short though

like I’m pretty sure a utah is taller than it’s upper torso region when it isn’t standing up

[hollow canyon]

It's smaller than a Carno, a tadbit but smaller nevertheless(although honestly it looks kind of just small next to Carno to me in general), it's only when you see it next to Allo that you realise what an enormous difference there is between the two

[alpine plover]

But compared to other animals in its respected category, it’s pretty tiny

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto looks as if Allo could just lift it with its arms while bear hugging it and chomp its head off

[alpine plover]

honestly teno being 1.6 tons is hard to believe, especially when it’s compared to carno which is only like 200 kg more than teno

[hollow canyon]

I'm actually not sure if I should be sharing this, give me a moment, I will ask Nova if he's fine with me showing this stuff off

[placid reef]

this image is more to show how light carno is lmao

[hollow canyon]

Well Carno is a bit too light in the game compared to irl but oh well

[placid reef]

irl it was 2t right?

[hollow canyon]

It's currently estimated at around 2t yea

I remember its estimates going up to 2.2t though

[alpine plover]

Wouldn’t mind increasing carnos weight to 2.1 tons in the future

[hollow canyon]

I'm pretty indifferent about it tbh

It's good for what it should be doing at its current size

I don't think that Carno should be particularly tanky or have a very high damage output

it's meant to hunt smalls with Tenonto being the largest thing it would realistically go for

[alpine plover]

Our carno weight is fine as it is I think, but seeing it heavier could be neat

Carno should always have a slow pathetic bite anyhow

[hollow canyon]

It would be fine but it's fine the way it is

Well, just for the record irl Carno had a pretty impressive biteforce

it could "outbite" an Allosaurus of comparable size

[alpine plover]

for isle balance reasons I guess it’s fine for it to have an underwhelming bite

[hollow canyon]

it's just that as a dedicated small game hunter I wouldn't want it to bite too hard

[alpine plover]

Although it’s anatomy literally proves it had a powerful bite

[hollow canyon]

it shouldn't oneshot things like Utah or Pachy

and it should take a while to kill something like a Tenonto

bigger things should really be offlimits for Carno imo

[alpine plover]

Tenonto should be like the largest thing a solo carno can take on, even then teno should have the overall advantage

[hollow canyon]

I'd agree if Tenonto was supposed to live in the plains but its current habitat and diet kind of imply that it shouldn't be where Carno's supposed to be at all

I think it should be a 50/50 match up at this point

if Tenonto had to actually go into the plains then yea it could have some advantage

but it literally has no business going there

atm the match up is definitely way too Tenonto-favoured

[alpine plover]

tenonto is kinda overtuned anyhow

At least atm

[hollow canyon]

that might be more so on Tenonto being too strong though

[alpine plover]

herbivores right now are a little too deadly

[hollow canyon]

Carno just needs some buffs to its walking/trotting/standing turn rate(idk why those got gutted in the first place) and perhaps some acceleration buff to make it a more efficient ambush predator since that's what its ability implies that it should be

yea, herbivores are a bit too deadly, especially when coupled with how much easier they are to play and grow

Goddamn herbivores are just no-brainers atm compared to carnivores

[alpine plover]

I have no idea why they nerfed carnos turn in place while stationary

Imo I think it should have a good stationary turn, but of course the sluggishness it has when turning

running at least

[hollow canyon]

it should turn badly while running

but not when standing, trotting and walking

[spring dagger]

Carno turning too fast whilst walking, standing or trotting would just completely invalidate utah

[hollow canyon]

it absolutely wouldn't

[spring dagger]

Not that carno doesn't already do that kinda.

[alpine plover]

it would not

[hollow canyon]

if you're dying to Carno as a Utah atm - genuinely l2p

[alpine plover]

I mean with carnos current balance 2 utahs can kill the poor thing

[hollow canyon]

dying to Carno required Utah to play like a complete moron even prior to Carno's nerfs, now it's just a joke

If you get hit by a Carno as something with that level of agility consider playing Stego I guess

[spring dagger]

I've not had issues with utahs as a carno, i've consistently bodied massive packs of them with a friend

2 V 12 mostly

[hollow canyon]

if 12 Utahs die to 2 Carnos they either wanted to die or they should uninstall

[alpine plover]

I’m honestly more afraid of pachys and tenos than I am of carnos

When playing utah

[hollow canyon]

you literally shouldn't even be able to land a bite on a Utah that actually wants to stay alive against you

[spring dagger]

Hitboxes are wack as fuck dude.

[hollow canyon]

Never got me killed so far

[alpine plover]

I was able to fight 5 adult carnos at once as utah just because they couldn’t even turn

Was actually sad to watch

[spring dagger]

That's a serious skill issue

[hollow canyon]

Utah is probably the closest thing to a viable carnivore in the game atm

[alpine plover]

They just couldn’t do anything

[hollow canyon]

just like 2 Carnos soloing a pack of 12 Utahs

[spring dagger]

Could be, but i was able to contend with them toe to toe fine.

[alpine plover]

Utah is rather viable but the problem of mixherding still lies

[spring dagger]

They landed 3 pounces on me and i didnt die

[alpine plover]

Center pond as an idea is rather cancerous

[spring dagger]

Whereas i can hit them once with a charge and they are dead as fuck all the time

I only managed to get to like 50%/35% of my blood pool left and i just sat in a bush and they wouldn't dare go for me since they were all low

then i just ran out nommed them one by one and they fell over

IDK man i think we're of the opposite opinion, i very much think carno is viable compared to utah

Atleast if you stay near oasis anyway

[hollow canyon]

If Utah gets hit by a charge then that genuinely are good grounds for advising it to uninstall the game

I genuinely don't even understand how asleep someone has to be to get hit by that as a Utah

[spring dagger]

well there were two of us and we were coordinating ourselves and catching them out

we just keep them central and charge if they go left or right

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto - sure, maybe your tail can get caught by it or something but a Utah?

[spring dagger]

it works every time

[spring dagger]

Carno's charge doesn't effect the tail for some stupid reason.

[hollow canyon]

Utah is definitely far better than Carno

Not on a Utah from what I've seen it doesn't

Tenonto does seem to get knocked over when hit on its tail

[spring dagger]

It doesn't.

[hollow canyon]

or at least it did on MT, not sure if that was changed

[alpine plover]

it does, happened to me yesterday

[spring dagger]

You have to hit just behind the legs or anywhere forward of the legs

[alpine plover]

Ran into a carno megapack

[spring dagger]

If we're talking about the tail bit just behind the legs? then yeah

But the actual tail itself it doesnt

It plays the sound and then it doesn't knock them over which is dumb.

Idk man i think Utahs viability comes from the fact that it doesnt starve ever, thats about it though. Combat potential is significantly better on carno rather than utah.

[hollow canyon]

In that case I genuinely don't understand what you have to do to get hit by Carno's charge as a Utah

unless you have the game outright minimised there's no excuse for that

[spring dagger]

I agree but it's hard to dodge carnos if 1) You charge through bushes since the sound doesn't play half the time, most ppl dont rely upon their vision and rather audio ques. 2) You're boxed in by multiple carnos, kinda hard to maneuver if they're forcing you into a single direction which is what you should be doing when hunting utahs anyway

But most people just stand there and get hit

[hollow canyon]

I mean most people don't do anything even when they do see you charging

[spring dagger]

Yeah

[hollow canyon]

on update 3 I had multiple instances where I charged a group of Utahs head on, they saw me coming and still got hit

[alpine plover]

Really? I can never really pull a charge off unless it’s a tenonto

[hollow canyon]

that is irrelevant to the balance

it can be pulled off against people that are afk and halfwits

[alpine plover]

guess I was just unlucky then

[spring dagger]

Its pretty easy to pull off charges, you just have to wait until you're as close as possible.

[hollow canyon]

That's not true

you outright cannot use the charge if you're too close

you need to maintain a healthy amount of distance before you can charge

[spring dagger]

I said close as possible.

I've done it many times, it's possible.

You run for 3 seconds, press RMB

[hollow canyon]

and I deny that it's possible

[spring dagger]

i just spam click it.

[hollow canyon]

if you crawl up to your opponent

you won't be able to use the charge

[alpine plover]

I think it’s just better to not play carno at all

[hollow canyon]

this is the key part ^ you need to run for a couple of seconds before you can use it

[alpine plover]

Too many weaknesses not enough strengths

[spring dagger]

A couple of seconds is nothing if you just position yourself in cover

[hollow canyon]

^ awful animal on this patch, Utah was much better in my experience although it was still lacking compared to Tenonto and other herbivores

[alpine plover]

Unless they actually re do the animal entirely

[spring dagger]

Like going by my experience in oasis, theres plenty of bushes to use to get close, then you run, RMB spam and you're guaranteed to land a charge on something thats unaware or is AFK growing in the bushes

I dont think Carno is all that bad based on my experience of it, you can reliably kill everything in the roster except stego. The only cons are it's poor stamina and its dogshit hunger time.

But if you stay around oasis you should be fine, as boring as it is.

[hollow canyon]

you definitely can't kill everything reliably

[spring dagger]

You absolutely can

[hollow canyon]

Reliably would imply that as long as you play optimally you will be killing the thing you're after

[alpine plover]

that’s if you don’t get negative 3 fps at the pond

[spring dagger]

Yes, which you can.

[hollow canyon]

meanwhile you literally rely on that thing being played by an idiot who can't move two steps to the side

[spring dagger]

Or just doesn't see you because you've positioned well

[hollow canyon]

you also mentioned that sound "doesn't play always" I mean - I've never had an instance where I didn't hear the Carno coming

Like, idk if I had my headphones off and my screen turned off then I guess it would be possible to get ambushed by a Carno

[spring dagger]

I've had it happen to me before, i dont hear the sounds at all most of the time.

[hollow canyon]

If you're any good at this game you will never get charged by a Carno as a Utahraptor

I'd say more - if you want to stay alive you will never die to a Carno

[alpine plover]

just don’t run into the starving kos megapacks and you have a pretty decent chance

[hollow canyon]

literally every single death that I experienced against Carnos was when I was trying to solo some Carno as a Utah, which admittedly is and always has been very hard

[alpine plover]

you’re more likely to die to a pachy than a carno as utah

[hollow canyon]

I never got caught by a Carno when I decided to just get away from it and stay alive

and I'm talking here about the previous updates when Carno had a vastly better turn rate, not just while walking and standing but also while running

[spring dagger]

Yeah

Well i'm just telling you what i've experienced, i'll send you our kill list if you like because we've been keeping score of the shit we kill on EU1

[hollow canyon]

Also - I got a go ahead from Nova to post his size comparisons so I'm reposting them

That's Teno with Carno and Allo obviously

[spring dagger]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/350242017453932545/934910263734460456/unknown.png

Thats our totals

[hollow canyon]

I don't doubt that, a tonne of people just play poorly, I'd killed some raptors larger than me as a Carno and soloed a large juv Stego as a fresh spawn Utah but that doesn't change the fact that that's because those people just played badly

Were those stegos/deinos adults?

[spring dagger]

2 of the deinos where

[hollow canyon]

Because if they were then idk what to tell you

[spring dagger]

Stegos were about 50%

[hollow canyon]

a single Deino absolutely eats 2 Carnos alive

[spring dagger]

Until it wastes it's stamina and it's done for

Can't crawl into water when theres no water near you remember so.

[hollow canyon]

Oh god... were they running after you or something?

[spring dagger]

ALT spam

[alpine plover]

Deino is irrelevant to everything

[hollow canyon]

I mean I'm pretty sure that I could just trot to the water with just two carnos attacking me

[spring dagger]

Then once they're down you can literally just butt-ride it and it dies

[alpine plover]

Redundant animal

[spring dagger]

This.

[alpine plover]

it’s just a slug that sits at center pond waiting for something to die so they can eat a corpse and go back to starving to death again

[spring dagger]

It takes around 24 bites to kill it though, it could be more but its around that number

[spring dagger]

Deino roomba gameplay

[hollow canyon]

It does not, if it took only that many you were either hunting a not fully grown one or that Deino was severely hurt

[alpine plover]

Therefore deino is an objectively bad animal with no input on the ecosystem

[hollow canyon]

Deinosuchus can tank 45 bites from a Carno

[spring dagger]

No way it's 45.

[hollow canyon]

it has 8000 hp, Carno has 175 biteforce

[spring dagger]

It cant be

[wintry mountain]

(it is)

[hollow canyon]

well divide it yourself

[spring dagger]

god

Guess time flies when you're biting ig

[hollow canyon]

As I said - you're not killing a Deino that has any idea where left and right is

[spring dagger]

idk i just bite until they die, i dont pay much attention to the numbers

[hollow canyon]

Stego's not much better it requires something like... 35 or something?

[alpine plover]

It’s well over the 40’s

I think

[hollow canyon]

35

still you're not killing that either unless the guy is a complete moron

[barren oracle]

what does that mean

[spring dagger]

Just a kill count

[spring dagger]

Wewlad

[barren oracle]

Jesus christ wtf

What are you playing as dude-

[hollow canyon]

2 Carnos

[spring dagger]

Ye

[barren oracle]

That seems unrealistic

3 deinos and steg?

[spring dagger]

50 - 40% stegos, prolly shoulda clarified it

We could stun them repeatedly until they died

Deinos were just bad ig idk what they were doing

[hollow canyon]

50% stego goes down to 2 Carnos easily

it does beat one if it's good but 2 are way too much

an adult Stego would clap 2 Carnos so hard they'd go back in time and stop probably halfway through the Cretaceous though

[spring dagger]

Yeah

1 tail shot does 50% of your HP

its fucked

[hollow canyon]

Btw regarding Carno's turn rate and their effect on Utah

[frail flicker]

ive solod a 50% steg as carno, didnt try charging it, just baited it and head bit

[hollow canyon]

note that we were talking about increasing the walking/trotting turn rate

not the running one

[spring dagger]

Yeah

It would still invalidate utah on a 1 on 1 match-up even further

Even though you're not supposed to, people still try

[hollow canyon]

I mean... wat

if they try then they should be dying

[spring dagger]

Yeah idk either, people are just insistant on 1v1ing carnos ig

[hollow canyon]

if Utah soloes Carno 1v1 then we have some serious balance problems

[spring dagger]

But i think the turn is fine the way it is honestly

The main problem with carno is it's god awful fucking stamina and hunger drain

[frail flicker]

i have 1v1d a carno adult with utah but that was because i was chasing it off my pack mate, i got a good pounce on him and didnt let it rest, it tried running away which is why it died

[barren oracle]

Deinos?

[spring dagger]

2 of the deinos were full adults

1 was like a 50% sub

[wintry mountain]

[barren oracle]

You did 8k damage to them.

Why.

[swift beacon]

why the fuck are you comparing 1 Utah to 1 Carno

[spring dagger]

Because they always come at me one on one, even grouped

[brittle herald]

Then those are bad Utahs

[spring dagger]

Even with 3 utahs, the turn is fine i can still keep my attentions to them.

[brittle herald]

A turn speed buff doesn't change anything here aside from making it slightly easier for Carno to kill utah when it's already piss easy

With the alt bite and everything

[spring dagger]

I dont use alt bite, but thats what i've been saying

[hollow canyon]

I don't think anything should be getting hit by Carno's alt bite, it's extremely slow

[barren oracle]

Dude. 8k damage against deinos

[hollow canyon]

I mean it's okay-ish if you bite in front of you

[barren oracle]

why.

[spring dagger]

Fucking felt like it.

Fuck deinos.

[hollow canyon]

but if you turn around it's way too slow to get hit unless something like idk Tenonto runs after you

[barren oracle]

8 0 0 0 health

[spring dagger]

[barren oracle]

They already get shreaded by stego leave the poor creatures be

[spring dagger]

No.

[swift beacon]

I've found the alt-bite speed to be acceptable as Carno but I haven't been playing much lately so that might be a recent development

[spring dagger]

Deinos are the worst playable, they deserve to get the bullet.

[barren oracle]

What about stego, and teno?

[spring dagger]

Teno is fine, stego is also bullshit but i can't kill those otherwise i would.

[alpine plover]

deino would be good if we had a stable aquatic ecosystem with more aquatic based playables

[barren oracle]

Teno is not fine

[spring dagger]

Teno absolutely is fine, it just needs it's hitbox tuning down

[barren oracle]

Its really not

[spring dagger]

I dont really have much of an issue with them as a Carno

[swift beacon]

Stego shouldn't have been in this early. Its adaptations are better suited for mowing down hordes of smaller enemies, making it nigh-unstoppable by the planned evrima roster

[spring dagger]

Stego needs competition

[barren oracle]

My guy they instakill you

[spring dagger]

If you charge headfirst into 4 of them then yeah absolutely.

[barren oracle]

No one of them will do the trick

[spring dagger]

I doubt that

[barren oracle]

I mean 1 stun allows you to be killed instantly

[hollow canyon]

you can doubt it but the numbers say something else

it is a bit situational but Tenonto can combo Carno from 100 to 0

[barren oracle]

how much does teno slam do rn? its over 300 right?

[hollow canyon]

naturally it also kills everything smaller in a single combo too

[spring dagger]

How do they do the combo?

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto's slam? 360 dmg

[spring dagger]

I've never seen it

[hollow canyon]

You need to land the first hit on the head

then you just slam the head again twice

[spring dagger]

Right

[alpine plover]

you spam until it falls on the ground

[hollow canyon]

the last slam kills it even if it doesn't land on the head

[spring dagger]

Yeah i can see that, but it's never happened to me ever.

[hollow canyon]

I've done it before

[barren oracle]

Never?

[hollow canyon]

It doesn't happen that often

[spring dagger]

Never, i've not died to a tenonto as a carno

[hollow canyon]

it never happened to me when I was a Carno

[alpine plover]

because tenos are kinda rare

[barren oracle]

Not once have you been 100-near death'd by a teno

[spring dagger]

Not once

[hollow canyon]

it did happen to me when I was the Tenonto in that match up

[alpine plover]

nobody plays teno for some reason

[spring dagger]

Partly because i play with my friend

Heres our combo:

One of us lands the charge, hyper focus the head, one guy tanks the hits, the other guy finishes it

[hollow canyon]

I mean 2v1 is a different story(although a good Tenonto could probably win that too)

[spring dagger]

Its simple as piss.

[barren oracle]

I only play dryo so balance for me is aweful anyway but if im watching a fight between a carno and a teno, teno wins 8/10 times

[spring dagger]

I honestly struggle more with Pachy than i do with tenonto partly because of the fractures

[hollow canyon]

I mean you're starting that whole thing by talking about landing the charge

Idk about a good player letting you land that

[spring dagger]

It's legit so easy to do

It's mainly about positioning

[swift beacon]

I've accidentally dodged a charge by turning around to look at the Carno charging me

as Tenonto, no less

[spring dagger]

Sure he might see you coming but he's not going to see the second guy as his attention is drawn to you

[swift beacon]

the key word here is accidentally

[spring dagger]

Whoops

[swift beacon]

absolutely piss easy to dodge charge I can do it without even meaning to

and I'm awful at fighting

[spring dagger]

I mean idk what to tell you mate, i hit them pretty consistently

[barren oracle]

Im a dryo player once again, charge is literally the reason i can escape carnos some time

[swift beacon]

playerbase is full of idiots. that's all there is to it.

[spring dagger]

If we had a ratio for idiots v smarts

what would you say the ratio would be

[barren oracle]

Statistically carno is awful but players are worse

[swift beacon]

probably around 10:1

[spring dagger]

I'd prolly go 25:1 honestly.

[swift beacon]

that is a higher ratio, but fair

either way, one should not try to balance games around the fact that most people who play it are idiots

even the dumbest of people are capable of learning basic counterstrategy if given the motive

[barren oracle]

Or just make the game easier smh

Imagine putting a new player as utah

[swift beacon]

no.

[barren oracle]

Ok then where is our tutorial

[swift beacon]

at the rate this game is going? already implemented in the game we'll eventually end up in.

that said, I think the toggle tips might play a big part here

sandbox will help the average player learn combat for their preferred assets at full growth

beyond that, most knowledge boils down to third party interference making information public, like navigation and dietary item locations

no doubt due to the rather flawed map layout

[half girder]

just wait 7 years

if we get troodon before june there is hope

[alpine plover]

we’ll be lucky to even get Cerato by the end of 2022

[fresh laurel]

Watch them delay update 5 because skin system got broken

lmao

I do hope skin system comes because I really need a camo skin for mah utah and mud seemed to work the best

[fresh laurel]

I wonder how much n is utah alt bite

[half girder]

think its like 10 more dmg

[fresh laurel]

doesnt seem worth it in a fast combat fight ngl

[half girder]

i was told its more but not exact

i do it vs carnos and dodge and bite at the same time

[fresh laurel]

ngl pounce seems to really start breaking at higher pings

[half girder]

i float at times

and go under the map

[spring dagger]

Not to mention the bleed pool differential means you're gonna have to be seriously committed to a stego in order to kill it, whereas they only will have to hit you twice as an Allo to end it since Allo is historically 2.5kg in larger specimens

Just continuing it here since there's a 5 hour post lock on the thread

[dusky surge]

by the time they release allo, they're probably gonna fix that issue

[spring dagger]

I hope. But it's not looking good in terms of scheduling.

We dont even know what's coming next other than skins and gore and nesting

[lapis leaf]

Of course that single Allo isn't gonna do shit but Allo packs will easily kill solo Stego. Bleed is the only way, but yes I do agree that Oasis is a problem as well.

[spring dagger]

Yeah it will combat the solo population but it does nothing against pairs of them, Stegos are rarely alone afterall and if they are then they all are heading to oasis and just sit there

You're on a time-window effectively, you have to kill them in that window otherwise they're still unkillable

[lapis leaf]

It would be better than nothing. The current roster is simply useless to combat stego as none of them deal enough bleed to kill it. You can literally land 10 headshots on a Stego as a Carno and not only it won't die but also it won't bleed out either.

[spring dagger]

But allo is just made redundant by the sheer numbers of them. And the fact that they can subsist off one diet and have no net negative, they may spread out diets but that doesn't address the core issue with mega-herds

[lapis leaf]

Now let's say the same amount of bites would come from an Allo and boom, Stego bleeds out within minutes.

[spring dagger]

Bleed is a non-factor when theres two or more of you.

[lapis leaf]

Mega herds aren't the problem either, problem is that when a body drops all herbis just start body guarding which is the cringiest thing a player can do (Stegos especially)

[lapis leaf]

Sorry but you are wrong, even with bigger numbers you can just focus on one and bleed it. That's it.

[spring dagger]

Megaherds are a significant problem because you can't sustain yourself as easily as a carnivore and they will always take up atleast 20 - 30 slots.

[spring dagger]

If they allow you to bleed them then yeah, but players wont allow you to get that off especially if you're a fucking allo.

[dusky surge]

also, stegos arent born in a group

if the general difficulty of reaching adulthood is increased, the amount of megapacks is decreased

[spring dagger]

No, but the vast majority of them are

[spring dagger]

Yeah i agree

There should be a bigger dependance on sticking to your diet as a herbivore since herbivourous animals have to eat more to actually get vital proteins and stuff

[lapis leaf]

We simply need a dino who can compete with them, not any apex as it would make the game unbalanced even more than it is now. Mid-tier bleeder is what we need now.

[spring dagger]

I dont agree. I think bleed is too hit or miss and in my experience it barely does anything.

[dusky surge]

thats not even what im trying to say, although that'd be good

im saying that if you add allo, stego population WILL suffer

[lapis leaf]

I got bleeded to death from utahs as carno many times. Now apply the same technique on stegos and you have a fix.

[spring dagger]

Bruh

Solo?

[lapis leaf]

Exactly!

[dusky surge]

because allo can kill young stegos easily. Higher damage and bleed + health to survive a tailswing = efficient kills on stego juvis

[lapis leaf]

Yes solo, 7 Utahs is smth you don't wanna mess with. But even when I play Utah a coordinated pack can kill smaller group of adult Carnos.

[spring dagger]

Bruh

[dusky surge]

even if an allo was added now, stegos would suffer

regardless of oasis' existence

[spring dagger]

I dont believe so.

I dont think bleed is viable enough even still based upon my experiences.

[lapis leaf]

You can count yourself as a lucky person then

[spring dagger]

I mean i 2v12'd utah packs on EU1 with my friend, its piss easy and they landed 3 pounces on me

I was put to 25% bleed pool, but we killed them all

Then i just hid in a bush and they wouldn't approach me because it's suicide to

[dusky surge]

If you account for stego in a vacuum where it only exists as an adult and only exists in large herds, then yes, allo does nothing

[lapis leaf]

I killed 7 Utahs solo too but if the players are coordinated the bleed is what you have to worry about not the hp usually

[spring dagger]

Yeah, so by extension bleed is redundant, you can only die to it if you mismanage the fight so poorly or your stamina was already low.

Or if you're a pachy

[dusky surge]

however, stego can be killed in juvi stage and it can be killed by a competent group of allos solo

[spring dagger]

Yeah absolutely.

But GL finding a juvie stego that isnt atleast 60%

[dusky surge]

which makes it FAR harder to grow megapacks

[spring dagger]

It doesnt.

[lapis leaf]

Doesn't have to be solo, even a group of two or even three maybe would be an interesting fight to a group of 5 coordinated allos let's say.

[spring dagger]

The thing is, people will just subsist of 1 diet and grow 3 hours, then just go out and grab their food and grow to full once they've hit 3.4 tonne

Since at 3.4 tonnes the only threat to you is utahs, and even then you can just sit in a bush and be unpredictable and kill them.

[lapis leaf]

Still bleed is NOT redundant, the fact that you have not experienced it doesn't mean it is.

[dusky surge]

it does though, stop looking at stego in a single isolated instance, it leads to horrible balance if something is just a solution to a singular problem in a vacuum. A stego herd SHOULD be hard to kill, even a rex should struggle in such an instance

[lapis leaf]

Could not say it any better.

[spring dagger]

But i'm not even considering the solo matchup, as i've just said player nature will just find ways and means of circumventing the growing and come out and exploit the system since they're already pretty much unkillable by the terrestrial matchup at 3.4 tonnes, provided they play with their terrain and aren't completely incompetent. Stego herds should be hard to kill i've not disputed this, but there has to be measures to promote competition between them as well and have an inability to generate these fucking massive death-balls.

Bleed is redundant for the factors i keep posting about, a pair makes your only method of attack and generating the high bleed completely redundant since they can literally attack you whilst you're on it, and you'll of course jump off because you're not stupid, thereby resulting in significantly diminishing returns for the stamina investment and the outcome you get.

You dont bleed them all that much when you pounce on them for 1-2 seconds afterall, which is all they're gonna allow you to pounce them for.

[dusky surge]

i can guarantee you bleed is far more powerful than you let on. Simply the act of pouncing a stego then jumping right off will begin a rather shocking decrease in bleed per second

you can also bleed someone as they wallow, completely removing the buff

if you bite an animal once after it wallows, buff is gone

[spring dagger]

Yeah, but smart players wont even bother wallowing unless it's pure desperation and even then you can just again, plop yourself in a bush and circumvent the issue

Nobody will be pouncing a bush with a stego in it unless they are extremely brave or stupid.

Since you can get smashed into other shit in the bush and knocked off too.

[dusky surge]

allo doesn't pounce tho

[spring dagger]

I know, it has it's lunge grab or whatever its meant to have

But the premise is still there, You can still be entirely circumvented by doing the same thing as what you would do with a utah.

[dusky surge]

there is never going to be a miracle animal that kills stego herds. That's just a fact

[spring dagger]

Yeah, which there should be a mechanical basis to promote competition to remedy that.

Herbivores dont compete with eachother which is a significant problem.

When there should be competition.

[dusky surge]

and that's good, i agree, we should have more spread out diets and encouragement to compete

[spring dagger]

IMO:

• Every player should spawn in with 25% hunger and 25% in each diet.

• Herbivores should be stronger than carnivores universally in respective of comparable weight classes, but the trade off is your diet should be harder to maintain given the infinite supply of your resource needed. (I'm fine with the balance at this current moment in time with exception of Stego)

• Penalize herbi players that dont have 2 diets minimum, (since they're going for realism, herbivorous animals have to eat way more per volume to get the nutrition needed to sustain themselves in comparison to carnivores which dont have to eat as much and can sustain themselves for longer periods of time)

• Reduce effectiveness of Juvi stego, it's too strong

• Increase effectiveness of Juvis across the board.

• Carnivores should be weaker than herbivores but have the ability to better sustain their dietary needs given the risk that comes into making a kill, it would make bodies significantly more valuable.

• Incorporate a stage system to bleed that would make bleed significantly more effective.

[wise sparrow]

@glass berry I don't think it's a good idea to balance herbivores on the assumption that it has a herd. What if you are a lone teno who just hasn't spotted a herd yet, and two carnos pull up on you while you were going for radish. Should the teno not be able to survive just because it didn't have a herd?

Besides, most herbivores actually didn't herd as far as we know. We only have proof of hadrosaurs doing it. So for all we know, pachy, teno, and stego could've been solitary animals.

Herbivores weren't made for herds only

[placid reef]

well thats just a fact, same for utah, you dont balance them around their group segment

[wise sparrow]

Yes but utah has food options when solo. At least when more smalls come out

Its got dryo, hypsi, proto, mono, galli, and all sorts of other things

While if teno and pachy were balanced to only be viable in herds, we would have BoB all over again were herbivores cower on their hills in huge groups and if you dont join them you get shredded by the carnivores

[placid reef]

BoB has 1 good use, to see how many good ideas on paper are actually atrocious in gameplay
cough herd balancing, debuff systems etc. cough

[wise sparrow]

BoB is just a "what not to do" balance wise

[placid reef]

i thank the bob devs for making the dev of every other game easier

[wise sparrow]

I feel bad for the devs though. there are tons of solutions they've proposed but then the community threatens to leave the game because they won't be able to abuse x mechanic

They cant really update because they will lose the man children that make up 70% of their playerbase

[dusky surge]

BoB just feels like a clusterfuck

[placid reef]

it is*

[spring dagger]

BoB for a time was good though

Infinite growth killed it since people could just kaiju it

[placid reef]

god i hope all strains will be timed, in gameplay wise, how hypos need to eat 24/7 but at some point they wont be able to, hope tisso and neuro get smth too

[wise sparrow]

I mean herbivores are supposed to be stronger than their carnivore counterparts. At least when they are slower. Stun locking is kinda broken atm but none of the large herbivores rn can run or start the fight so they have to be good at fighting. If teno and pachy didn't have stun carno would steamroll them because it's just so fast AND strong

So its kinda iffy messing with stun

[spring dagger]

I agree with teno having the stun since it doesn't have fracture

[calm ibex]

stuns could be changed into status effects that just reduce movement and OR turn speed massive amount for a moment

[spring dagger]

Pachy doesn't need it though imo, its so easy to get the fracture off

[wise sparrow]

If pachy cant stun carno could kill it after it hit its headbutt

Its staggers pachy and it needs to turn away

Carno could face tank it

[hollow canyon]

They might be supposed to be stronger but not this much stronger

I honestly believe they should have 50/50 chances in general, they are easier to grow and require far less effort both to grow and maintain.

I never got to afk as much on a carnivore as I did on a herbivore and it's perhaps most visible in this update.

[placid reef]

they should be slightly stronger, ever so sligthly that equaly skilled players the herbi has a bit better chance

[hollow canyon]

As for Pachy stunning Carno - it shouldn't do that, if anything it should be allowed to to move away faster, or the stun should be shorter, atm it's way too long.

unless you bonk the head then it's fine if Carno gets stunned

[wise sparrow]

If pachy loses its stun body fracture would need a buff. Maybe something to do with turn rate?

[hollow canyon]

Body fracture does need a buff

Imo it's bugged based on the couple of tests I've done

[wise sparrow]

Pachy ironically being punished by body fracture more than its predators

[hollow canyon]

In general - it was supposed to increase the stamina drain of the opponent, specifically to double it

this is not a thing, it just doesn't do that

I've checked it on a video of a Carno that was body-broken by a Pachy

it should have 30 seconds of running time there

it ran for 15 seconds and lost only 25% of its stamina meaning that body fracture doesn't do anything effectively

just increase the stamina drain by 100% when you land that and it should be good

[strange heron]

Delete pachy

Delete carno

Problem solved

[spring dagger]

Punishing stamina regen for body fracture is just a bad thing for anything thats body fractured though

[spare badger]

Tbf teno is supposed to be better at fighting than carno by design of teno being a brawler

[spring dagger]

It should be that actions drain your HP like old bleed.

So if you're body fractured and you run, you lose HP over time based on how long you run, you can still get away and you're de-incentivised to continue the fight because you're low and adds more to the gamble of it

I fucking hate the way head fracture is though, fuck that noise.

[spare badger]

I agree with that

Body fractures should do DOT

[spring dagger]

Head fractures shouldn't reduce your damage imo, all it takes is for a pachy group to break the leg and head of a carno and it's fucking done for

[spare badger]

I got head fractures and damn if you aren't a carno you are toast
I got hit as a teno and needed my teammate to defend my from the carno pack until I could see
At least as carno you can just book it

[spring dagger]

I know it makes sense but if you get double fractured you're fucked, and we all know how thats gonna play out when rex comes into play against other apexes

Head and leg fracture and they can't fucking do shit

[spare badger]

Imo rex shouldn't fracture...

Unless it's a body/tail

[spring dagger]

I think if rex was a glass cannon apex then the fracture would be fine.

[spare badger]

It shouldn't be able to get leg or head it does not make all that much sense

[spring dagger]

In which all tyrannosaurs should be glass cannons imo

It would make for an interesting niche

[spare badger]

I guess so

[spring dagger]

Giga should be a tanky bleeder that has low base damage

But high bleed

[spare badger]

Spino
I would say spino should be the most aquatic spinosaurid
But it's model disagrees with me

[placid reef]

how can it when its either 2nd or 3rd heaviest carni in the game

[spare badger]

2nd I believe

Spino is bigger

[spring dagger]

It is 2nd yeah, Idk to tell you the truth but i think it would defo be interesting

[spare badger]

Spino will be a tank I think
High health, medium damage and bleed

[spring dagger]

I think spino should actually be the moderate of the apexes

[placid reef]

ye ik spino was the biggest forgot how giga was

[spring dagger]

High brawling potential, lots of CC, high damage on some attacks, low on some.

I think giga is bigger than rex but only slightly right?

[spare badger]

It's bite shouldn't be too strong cause it preys on fish often
But its claws will do good damage

[spare badger]

It won't be heavier though

[placid reef]

low bleed, spinosaurids didnt have cerated teeth, also spino will prob be the slowest land carni

[spring dagger]

give it old spino ambush speed

[spare badger]

Charcaradontosaurids in general were of much lighter builds
Tyrannosaurids were super bulky

[spring dagger]

Yeah

[spare badger]

Medium bleed cause claws

[spring dagger]

But for the sake of balance and the fact that i fucking hate legacy rex

[placid reef]

oh ye, thought you meant bite

[spring dagger]

I think giga and spino and rex should have diverse niches and playstyles

[spare badger]

I meant it's kit as a whole

[spring dagger]

instead of being "apex copy and paste" which is what i'm worried they'll do

[spare badger]

Spino should be slow on land, fasted spinosaurid in water

[spring dagger]

in terms of combat, not survival

[spare badger]

It should live in deino infested areas

Which leaves the clearer lakes and rivers to sucho and bary respectively

Keeps them diverse

[placid reef]

spino slow on land, a tank, bitch slaps with cherry and deino, rex hunts the big tiers like shant, trike anky and stego, and giga hunts prey with bleed and gang tactics

[spare badger]

Rex eats the armoured bois (trike, anky) and hadros (shant, para)
Giga eats Sauropods and hadros (bronto, brachi, Cama, shant, para)
Spino hunts whatever the hell it wants
(Cherry, Deino, literally anything that goes to water)

[placid reef]

between the 3 giga is the only one that really should get use out of a second or third giga

[spare badger]

Giga will be given group size up to 3
Rex and spino 2

[placid reef]

spino hunts whatever it can catch or risks with deino and cherry

[placid reef]

Yep

[spare badger]

A pair of spino and rex are still even with 3 Giga s

[placid reef]

solo they are kinda even as all can escape the other, spino is obv, rex is faster and giga has stam and just a bit better speed

[wise sparrow]

Acro causally being forgotten

[spare badger]

Acro pseudo

[spring dagger]

acro for nocturnal apex.

[wise sparrow]

Acro is just worse giga

[spring dagger]

I dont want it as a pseudo

[spare badger]

Acro gets discussed with sucho and the like

[spare badger]

If it's a normal apex it will just be worse Giga

[wise sparrow]

Acro should get it's old legacy heal

[spring dagger]

If it was nocturnal it would have that niche, and that would be fun as fuck

[spare badger]

We need more nocturnal creatures

[spring dagger]

We do

[wise sparrow]

Venomous acro

[spare badger]

Nocturnal dryo

Nocturnal Acro

Sounds really cool

It could be a burst sprinter

Instead of long distance like Giga it is bursts of speed

[wise sparrow]

Lets be honest if any carnivore gets to be nocturnal the devs will slap venom on it

[spring dagger]

Yeah :c

[spare badger]

No
Bad
Just because it's nocturnal doesn't mean it needs venom

We have 3 venomous animals we don't need more

[wise sparrow]

B- but nocturnal animals in jw have venom!!!!

[spare badger]

Like
1

[spring dagger]

I would VERY much like to see a glider carnivore

[spare badger]

Being Troodon

[spring dagger]

Not even micro-raptor, could even be a strain

Like the tissoplastic

[spare badger]

Herrara strain glider

[placid reef]

lets make sucho nocturnal, unironically

[spare badger]

Sucho? Really?

Explain

[wise sparrow]

I have a great idea for ceratopsids but I am dreading typing it

[spare badger]

Do it

[placid reef]

either it or deino, allows them to not have to worry about beeing to similar or negated by spino

[spring dagger]

Do it

[spare badger]

That is easily solved by environment

They won't be living in the same place

[wise sparrow]

I'm on mobile rn so it will be hell

[spring dagger]

ok

[placid reef]

say it here, thats what i've been doing for months, not gonna post a feedback, just gonna see opinions in discussion lol

[spare badger]

Bary is designed for clear rivers
Sucho is designed for lakes
Spino and deino for water you can't see anything in

[placid reef]

maybe sucho, but deino and spino... or sucho and spino or sucho and deino...

[placid reef]

we have no clear waters, we have rivers which are intrensic muddy and swamps, so hope Jace packing the heat there

[spare badger]

According to the devs spino will clap Deino so it will love where deinos are

[spare badger]

We are getting clear water iirc

[placid reef]

so what the point of deino then... god how dirty deino has been done

[spring dagger]

Im fine with deino being done dirt

its a bad animal :c

[placid reef]

both slow on land and one is just straight up better than the other

[spare badger]

Deino one shots half the cast
And swims faster than spino

[spring dagger]

When are they adding koolasuchus so we can have a complete walking with experience

[placid reef]

swiming is only gonna be usefull to run away from spino and you really think spino is gonna have a problem when ambushing 4t and less dinos?

[spare badger]

Deino is just kinda a poor playable design wise imo

[placid reef]

yes

[hollow canyon]

Sizes of the largest specimena of the theropods:
1.Tyrannosaurus rex 9.9t
2.Giganotosaurus 9t
3. Spinosaurus 6-8.2t(the one in the game I'd personally expect to be much larger than this though)

[spare badger]

Crocodiles can go without eating for weeks to months and just wait for food to come to them, pretty bad plater experience

[placid reef]

like at least sucho can be dif from spino in a handfull of ways but deino is just gonna be shit spino and they are the same class, but even giving deino great nv wont do much

[hollow canyon]

In general I expect Spino to tbe the tankiest and Giga to be the squishiest apex carnivore.

[placid reef]

i think Nova put spino at 9.7t or smth like that

[hollow canyon]

Nova put it at 9.1t... but it's not really based on any evidence of how large in-game spino would be. I'm pretty sure that nobody did a GDI of it. I argued for it to be bigger than Rex because I personally believed it to be bigger out of the two.

He initially had both at ~8.8t

[spare badger]

Is 9.9 the average for rex or the max size

[hollow canyon]

That's the max size

It's Scotty's weight estimate

[placid reef]

avg is more what we have planned/ novas charts

[spare badger]

Yea so I would go with the average

[hollow canyon]

Scotty is the largest theropod we have have, followed by Sue at 9.7t and Giga paratype at 9-9.2t

What we have planned was supposed to be based on the largest paleoaccurate estimates

8.8t used to be the largest estimate for T.rex when Nova started making the chart

[placid reef]

when they got slated as they said what was there is what we get even 10 years later

[hollow canyon]

He just didn't get to changing it and I'm not sure if he's gonna feel comfortable about making those animals that enormous

I will speak to him about whether he intends to upsize all the apexes now that they got bigger(well... the two of them, cause Spino's only shrinking really)

Then again irl Spinosaurus is a weird animal that we know very little about, it has little bearing on the game

Imagine if the devs wanted to do Spino paleoaccurately

They'd have to change the goddamn thing every 4 months or so

[placid reef]

or stego... a bit

[hollow canyon]

Stego only got one change over a relatively long time it got bigger(kind of/sort of)

Its a more bulky animal than what we have in Evrima and this changed has caused it to gain some 2t

the thing is - a/ I've heard it's likely getting lighter in the near future and... b/ technically the plates and what-not add a couple hundred kg, the animal itself without that fancy stuff weighs 7t+(sry, i don't recall the exact number from top of my head)

[spare badger]

I would say that the average weight for rex should be used since we have so many specimens and the max size for elders
Spino should be the biggest just based on the niche it looks like it is going to have

[placid reef]

oh ye true, elders are larger than the adults

[spare badger]

Like a 9.9 elder rex sure
But not normal
We can't really do the same with spino and Giga due to the much fewer specimens

But for rex we can take averages

Cause like
Not every elephant is as big as jumbo

Not every rex grew to 9.9 tons

So using elders to reach those sizes would be a neat addition

Spino is hella fragmentary so we have no clue of its approximate max size

[hollow canyon]

We have only two specimens of Giga and they are both larger than an average Rex. effectively making "an average Giga" the largest carnivorous dinosaur(on average) Rex has the largest specimen among the theropods.

It's a bit of a funny situation I think

when it comes to "the biggest one" which is more interesting than having a clear answer imo

[spare badger]

Giga was longer and lighter than rex right?

[hollow canyon]

When i say "bigger" I mean "heavier" - Giga was heavier on Rex than average but Rex has 2 specimena that are heavier than the heaviest Giga

And yea Giga was indeed longer

even the holotype from what I recall is longer than Scotty/Sue

[spare badger]

I always thought Giga would be lighter than rex by a good amount

[hollow canyon]

It was until recently

Rex is heavier at similar length but Giga is heavier on average because we have only two specimens of it both of which are generally quite big, there are no midgets that lower the "average" for it

[wise sparrow]

It's hard cause we cant tell the average of 2 animals

[spring dagger]

... Lowering stegos health and damage until we get better things is nerfing it.

[sinful cove]

Diminishing returns can be nice but this is garbage. No one should rely on being in a group to survive, especially pushing a whole faction in to that cancer. If an animal relies on a group to defend itself, it actually becomes harder to find a group, and drives solo players away as well. Just kills the faction

[placid reef]

but muh immersion, but muh fantasy

[fresh laurel]

Utah crying increases

[sinful cove]

Bro i play utah solo and thrive all the time

[fresh laurel]

There might be a chance of a bigger giga in that case

[fresh laurel]

I avoid combat as solo utah so eh

[sinful cove]

Sure its boring though since i cant usually any good fights but i can blame oasis for that

[fresh laurel]

Oasis did kinda ruin the fun ngl

[sinful cove]

Same, but utah can thrive in the forest and is faster than most of its threats

[fresh laurel]

Cant find anything solo no more

[hollow canyon]

If you mean irl then sure, perhaps. The chance that we found the largest specimen of either of those species is unlikely although the biggest Rex's seem to be pushing the upper boundaries of what was possibly for theropods to achieve.

[sinful cove]

The nost i usually run in to is juvi tenontos that i ignore most of the time because by the time i find them i aint even hungry anymore because i run in to like 472826429 boars

[hollow canyon]

I always find boars funny

[fresh laurel]

Me when boar fights back against my utah

[hollow canyon]

every time I'm prior to 50% on Carno they are literally never there

[fresh laurel]

[hollow canyon]

the moment I hit 50% an entire legion of Pumbas is on me

[sinful cove]

Boar doesnt fight back it runs to you and gives you free pounce

Mobile typing is agony

[fresh laurel]

Me when pachy head smack takes prioty over pounce

[hollow canyon]

although to be fair it seemed to me that boars are only relatively easy to find when there are few players on the server

when I played today with ~95-100 players on the server

not a single boar was in sight

[fresh laurel]

More ai would still be nice ngl

[sinful cove]

I usually get pachies while theyre eating but thats rare because… oasis

[hollow canyon]

I don't think we need more AI tbh

what we do need is for the hunger requirements to be normalised

[fresh laurel]

I legit cant find anything but boars and goats lol

[fresh laurel]

Me taking 20 years to fill my belly

[hollow canyon]

the idea that a Carno has to eat an entire Carno to get full on food is the issue

[fresh laurel]

Legit make eating faster for carnivores

[hollow canyon]

Utah being required to eat Hypsi and Dryo for its diet

[sinful cove]

Carnis should beed maybe 20% of their body weight in a sitting to get from 0-100

[hollow canyon]

where Hypsi gives it next to no nutrients and is rare like hell

[fresh laurel]

I eat as fast as a baby who doesnt want food

[hollow canyon]

yea that would be reasonable

20% would be good

[sinful cove]

Varying a bit between animals of course but in general

[hollow canyon]

that's basically one Pumba to get Carno from 0 to full

and you will still have some leftover food I think

[sinful cove]

Like gators irl can eat about 20% to fill up

[fresh laurel]

Hypsi should fill adult utah pretty well imo

[hollow canyon]

Hypsi is just 20kg

[fresh laurel]

And utah belly?

[hollow canyon]

that's ~5% of Utah's mass

[fresh laurel]

Aye man i just said fill it pretty well

[sinful cove]

And when things like bones and organs come out with gore and different parts of bodies are more useful to some than others it can be more interesting

[hollow canyon]

I've never been inside of a stomach of a Utahraptor so I can't hypothesise about how much space it has there

[fresh laurel]

Not much with our model

[hollow canyon]

Well the good thing is - it can only get better from here

I don't think it's possible to make it much worse than this

unless someone actively tries

[fresh laurel]

Brain giving protein

Would like that

[sinful cove]

Don’t underestimate the devs ability to make a mechanic worse

[fresh laurel]

Lmao

[sinful cove]

Sometimes it gets way worse before it gets better lol

[hollow canyon]

Fair point

I mean it was even worse during QA

[fresh laurel]

Remember pounce in legacy

[hollow canyon]

goddamn the time when nutrients were dropping as fast as hunger

[fresh laurel]

[hollow canyon]

they actually should have a lower decay rate than they do now

[fresh laurel]

Or carnivores getting all nutrients from one dino even as adults

[hollow canyon]

No, I mean both herbivores and carnivores

[fresh laurel]

Legit was old food system but you eat more sepcific things

[hollow canyon]

the nutrients shouldn't drop this fast

[sinful cove]

Carnis being able to get all nutrients from one animal if that animal has all the preferred tissue types available

[hollow canyon]

Although i think that having it so that carnivores perhaps get all three from a specific food item at a specific time would be fine

e.g. the game randomly chooses 3 animals for you and you have to eat one of them

[fresh laurel]

Diet should of came with gore imo

[hollow canyon]

if you do you get all 3 nutrients

but yea gore should handle that better(hopefully)

atm it's just... really weird and bad with carnivores

you have to hunt pretty much non-stop

[fresh laurel]

Diets and gore were suppose to be in same update at some point

[hollow canyon]

and you pass multiple bodies that are just not to your liking

[fresh laurel]

Could of been a prefect diet update

[hollow canyon]

also - why does Utah eat Deino and why does Carno eat goats?

Goats live in the mountains which is the last place Carno should be found in

[fresh laurel]

Why cant utah eat ptera if it counters it and why arent goats in its diets

[hollow canyon]

Deino is the biggest counter to Utah

[fresh laurel]

Stego actually

[hollow canyon]

pteranodon would be really problematic, it's not a reliable food source at all

[fresh laurel]

But deino?

[hollow canyon]

also - herbivores should have more than just 3 plants on their diets

[fresh laurel]

I see more birds than gators

[hollow canyon]

there should be some alternatives

[spring dagger]

Deino counters pretty much everything though aside from stego

I shudder at thinking about land deinos

[fresh laurel]

Tbf deino is a giant massive gator

[hollow canyon]

just like carnivores have it with e.g. dryo, hypsi, deino for whichever nutrient on Utah

[sinful cove]

Imo berbis shpuld have plant groups in their diets, like cucurbits as a whole diet preference

[fresh laurel]

A giant gator aint losing to carno or teno lmao

[hollow canyon]

that could work

[sinful cove]

Like something might like cucurbits, wildflowers and asparagus

[hollow canyon]

just give them more than one plant

[fresh laurel]

Same for carnivores when more playables come

[spring dagger]

It does quite often lose to carnos because people that play it get sucked into their own ego and fucking die as a result of stupidity

[hollow canyon]

because it's dumb atm

[fresh laurel]

Like ceratopions or iguandon family

[sinful cove]

Since agave is an asparagus, and we have more than one cucurbit in the game

[hollow canyon]

Carnivores just need a completely different system

[fresh laurel]

Deino cant die to carno XD

Legit it just cant

[spring dagger]

It absolutely can.

[sinful cove]

If it chooses to

Or is a juvie in the wrong place

[fresh laurel]

Same for anythjng

[spring dagger]

If it runs out of stamina it's completely fucked, theres nothing it can do and a carno can buttride it super fucking easy

[sinful cove]

Yep

[fresh laurel]

Im saying adults

Any juvie dies to anything

[sinful cove]

In the wrong place that it chose to be you mean?

[spring dagger]

O ye if its miles away from water and gets ambushed and dies

[fresh laurel]

Deino with 8k hp...

[sinful cove]

Land gators can die if they make the worst decisions

[spring dagger]

deino needs buffs so it can be a land deino tho

[sinful cove]

[spring dagger]

like fr, srs, its too underpowered it should 1 shot everything in the game

[fresh laurel]

Remove deino add kapro ggez

[sinful cove]

Allow deino to use its tail to fly between water sources

[fresh laurel]

Allow deino to go type h at command

[spring dagger]

In all seriousness, they should just stop adding dogshit playables that dont interact.

[fresh laurel]

Deino was nice way to make me avoid water tho

Stego though...

[spring dagger]

Yeah but thats legit it

"Just walk away lol" there we go, you've just made deino redundant in every facette

[fresh laurel]

Get water later gg

[spring dagger]

drink at shallows omegalul

[fresh laurel]

Go to shallows

Exactly

Congrats you countered deino

How was deino viable irl then?

Or did its size become its downfall

[sinful cove]

Unironically a land gator eventually would be nice but…
Chad presto > virgin kapro

[fresh laurel]

Oh...

Was gonna say kapro could be the isle jaguar

But yea thats better

[wind ivy]

Kapro will win

[spring dagger]

I want more triassic animals

[sinful cove]

Chad presto breaks your legs while virgin kapro dies to one utah

[spring dagger]

Rauisuchids especially

[wind ivy]

I also agree

[sinful cove]

The isle has a raui in its database

[spring dagger]

I want fucking tanystropheus

[sinful cove]

Tanystropheus and atopodentatus for the coast

[spring dagger]

Yes

[fresh laurel]

Irl utah is strong ngl

[spring dagger]

just Yes. though do you think tany could actually fight anything or would it be the equivelant of a elasmo with legs?

[wind ivy]

Diplocaulus for river Ai 🙏

[fresh laurel]

Remember our utah is apolloraptor

[sinful cove]

I hope plateo goes coast too

[fresh laurel]

Replace deino with land gator

Sucho more viable

[barren oracle]

@grizzled holly tf you want oasis to stay?

[spring dagger]

Just fucking stop fucking adding these playables that borderline OP like deino was literally meant to be just a kaiju mosa from BoB

[barren oracle]

No. Make a larger version of kapro. where is our dog croc

[spring dagger]

then they fucking changed it thank fuck

[spring dagger]

Boverisuchus niche

[barren oracle]

Deino was basically always fine

map however.

thats a different story

[fresh laurel]

It was evrimas most hyped playable...

Just wasnt added right

Deino needs the tug of war mechanic already

And it gets harder for it win with the bigger the target

So its possible to drown stego if get good

[spring dagger]

Everyone was hyped for an AFK simulator / river ambusher that is locked into one biome because it's so utterly useless on land... right.

[wise sparrow]

@woven ginkgo it would be better if grass in an area depleted. Some herbivores especially juveniles have a hard time finding preferred food at the start.

[fresh laurel]

I think that would be good along side smaller yet faster herbis cant graze

[wise sparrow]

And if you live off of grazing you ain't growing

[fresh laurel]

Since grass would give nothing for them

[wise sparrow]

Hadrosaurs should be the ultimate grazers

Inhale plant

[fresh laurel]

Yes

Stegos should be cows but stronk

[wise sparrow]

Spike cow

[fresh laurel]

Dunno how grazing even fills dryo hunger

Its fast boi

[woven ginkgo]

I'd like that as well. Anything that makes starving an actual possibility for herbivores

[fresh laurel]

Pls

Or buttload of ai for carnivores work...

[wise sparrow]

Osias would constantly be a grassless wasteland lmao

[fresh laurel]

You arent wrong...

And i love that

Too bad that could ruin the environment

Less places to hide

Less afk growing

Herbivores had now played themselves

[wise sparrow]

Brachi casually deforesting the island

[fresh laurel]

Brachi drinking oasis pond in one gulp

[barren oracle]

Oasis removed? Yes? Gamer moment

[fresh laurel]

Yes

[wise sparrow]

The single deino in the water at that time:

[fresh laurel]

Everyone mains brachi for that one reason

[fresh laurel]

Skill issue ngl

[wise sparrow]

I feel like if more than 7 people were playing brachi at once the island would be dead. All the plants would evaporate

[fresh laurel]

https://tenor.com/view/the-isle-adapt-git-gud-skill-issue-gif-23598192

[fresh laurel]

At least carnis will eat for days

[spare badger]

The full map is huge so I doubt it

[rapid flicker]

So many people hating on fractures…

Salty carnivor mains. Just dont get hit or dont pick a fight in the first place. You have speed for a reason… you can just run away

[placid reef]

god another debuff request... smh

[dusky surge]

i love arbitrary punishment

[placid reef]

i love easily abused systems that increase griefing

[dusky surge]

i just really want to hop on the Isle to be punished for playing herbivore

[placid reef]

nah now its getting in carni territory too , we all get debuffed

[dusky surge]

true

i just want to be punished for playing and i want it to not be something i can deal with

[placid reef]

also love when you give concrete logical explinations why it will never work and better ideas but they still go nah that wont do shit bc debuff just makes sense on paper

my favourite

[dusky surge]

people really like looking at problems in pure vacuums

like the stego issue

people want their magic animal that will walk up and wipe a stego herd off the planet

[placid reef]

this comunity doesnt have much in terms of foresight, inteligence and in return skill for designing/ balancing so expected

[dusky surge]

im an actual game designer with experience and education so i feel a special pain

[placid reef]

like once you get to learn and understand human psichology and game dev, both which im doing/ going towards, you just realise how shit many ideas are

[spare badger]

Bright idea
Don't fight a herd

[placid reef]

bright idea, get gud

[dusky surge]

@half girder you can still kill juvis lmao

[half girder]

naw

[dusky surge]

i'd rather juvi killing go for the actual juvi killer flyer than the fisher flyer lmao

[half girder]

but..

it was so fuuun

[dusky surge]

eh

[half girder]

fiine, i removed it.

[dusky surge]

not really that fun for the receiving end to die with very little counterplay

[half girder]

bruh

i whooped pt butt as baby utah

now its buggy

[dusky surge]

the only counterplay is being able to jump

also, quetz

[placid reef]

another herbis are fodder they dont fight back

[white owl]

What do you mean herbis are more than fodder they are just stupid things walking around only there for the sake of carnivores. The way it should work is if you play as a carni you can go up to a herb and just 3 call it and they will instantly just flop over and die

[placid reef]

true, thats all documentaries show, duh

[spring dagger]

Yes just dont get hit from tap charges most of the time as utah, and dont get cancelled out of your pounce even though you're on the guy and still get hit

Carno is fine tho, anyone that complains at this point about pachy as a carno is just something else

[placid reef]

tap charge got fixed, 1 down 1 million more to go

[spring dagger]

even for utah?

I tried playing utah yesterday and it is legit pure suffering

so i just went back to pachy and beat the fuck out of utah players since it's so one-sided even still

[placid reef]

tap charge got fixed, alt still exists

[spring dagger]

wowie ok

IG it's across the board then, i'll have to test it more

[placid reef]

ye latest patch fixed it as a few people metioned it doesnt work anymore

[spring dagger]

I know it doesnt work against carno anymore which makes the matchup so fucking good for carno and rewarding to fight

But i think i still knock utahs over on the tap

and then alt them because they die in 2 hits

[wise sparrow]

I'm sorry does this guy really want herbis to literally not be able to fight?

[sinful cove]

Ah yes another muh jurassic park carnivore roleplay ‘herbivores should just run away even though theyre slower’ feedback

[hollow canyon]

It's worded weirdly but I think he's trying to say that there should be some form of CD on Pachy's stun so that they can't stunlock Carno(unless he literally means that there should be CD on receiving damage from Pachy attacks) and that Utah should be able to jump over a charging Pachy.

[keen talon]

@daring summit I think you're onto something. It is a dead body after all, I would say there is a dim in eyesight after hanging around a dead ally herbi for longer than 1 minute.

[hollow canyon]

I don't think the second one is that realistic, but Pachy should most certainly not be CC-ing a Utah with its alt attack.

[keen talon]

Or a blocking of smells next to carcasses?

[hollow canyon]

That would be abusable tbh.

You could just drop bodies or carry them around herbivores debuffing them as a carnivore.

[placid reef]

any debuff system can and will be abused

[hollow canyon]

1 minute is also a very short time in a prolonged engagement.

[hollow canyon]

Any system can and will be abused.

Currently herbivores are abusing the hell out of the diet system.

Which makes them the vastly superior faction.

[keen talon]

lmao after a minute? Not abusable

If you're not aware of your surroundings after a minute then you deserve to die

[hollow canyon]

That coupled with the fact that they are much better in terms of PvP causes them to abuse the hell out of carnivores atm

[hollow canyon]

@keen talon ^

[keen talon]

Then make the affect timer restart after each carni pickup?

[placid reef]

yes but one is debuffing the other class, diets is just that one class was developed better for that system, a debuff system is directly targeted at one of them

[hollow canyon]

So as to stop them from abusing a different system - in general herbivores just need a nerf.

I'm 90% sure that the vast majority of the current herbivore abusers are the very same people who abused Carno in the mechanic test when Tenonto and Utah were hot garbage.

[placid reef]

yes, diet system is for the most part, the root of many issues rn like body guarding, mega/mixpacking, made a comment about all of this and ways to fix it

[hollow canyon]

These people will jump on whatever animal is at the time best suited to just break the game and do whatever they can to make it a miserable experience for everyone trying to play it.

[hollow canyon]

It would not be if carnivores weren't just awful in comparison to herbivores.

[placid reef]

i mean yea but herbis having the map favour them by default, same for food has a much larger impact

[hollow canyon]

Yea they would still be harder to grow and maintain but at least they would be equally capable of PvP.

[placid reef]

well we would have both in the best case

[hollow canyon]

At least one of them would be neat

I personally take more of an issue with the carnivores' impotence in pvp

they are just much worse when played against an equally skilled opponent

[placid reef]

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/423939730544132096/935133051808251955 this was the comment i was talking about, how diets rn are the root of most of this as from my experience with past updates all of them where very rare or didnt happen

[hollow canyon]

The fact that I can grow a Tenonto with a fraction of the effort I need for Carno is an additional issue

as for your suggestion - that stuff about Stego not attacking through trees - yea... that was supposed to be a thing

in the initial days of the recode

what happened to that? I don't know, I guess it may have been difficult to program

[dusky surge]

very likely lmao

[placid reef]

what did they want to make, where trees literally block the tail, like the model too?

[hollow canyon]

No, basically

you couldn't attack through walls like in the legacy

if you did you'd do no damage

At least I think that was the idea

in this case if you have a tree in the way it would just cause your swing to deal no damage

[placid reef]

so hitting a tree, rock etc would remove the damage hitbox/ value of the attack?

[hollow canyon]

although admittedly it gets into a weird territory where you might just scrape something during the attack causing that attack to do nothing

and it could be difficult to set up sensibly

[wise sparrow]

I thought maybe instead of a stun pachy's ram could cause carno to flinch. Body shots would play an animation where the carno recoils at a 500 kilo battering ram hitting it at 37 kph. This slowes the carno down and prevents it from attacking at full strength for like a second or half a second. This recoil could have a cooldown that prevents pachy from chaining it endlessly. Also pachy's turn needs a slight nerf. And it needs more punishment for missing a bunch of alt attacks and rams

[placid reef]

ye like adding such a system wouldnt be that hard, making it sensible would be hard

[hollow canyon]

I don't think that Pachy needs a nerf to its turning ability

[wise sparrow]

Tail hits shouldn't stun at all though

[hollow canyon]

Idk why people love nerfing turning on different animals, it's like the last thing that should be touched about the animals and like the last effort nerf in desperation since touching that usually ends up in the animal moving like its stuck in a tarpit and being completely unnatural(i.e. Pachy in MT, Carno rn)

[dusky surge]

i like how carno moves rn lmao

[hollow canyon]

It looks like its stuck in a good

trying to make its way through it when you turn around

[dusky surge]

its actually the most fun i've had playing carno... ever

[hollow canyon]

Idk, maybe you like dinos that are stuck in goo, I'm not judging

I do like it when they move like there's just air resistance though

[dusky surge]

it doesn't at all feel like its stuck in goo to me

[hollow canyon]

it looks that way whenever you try to turn around while standing

[placid reef]

maybe wave is stuck in goo so he doesnt realise

[hollow canyon]

there's a weird delay and it seems to take effort from the animal

it does not look in any way natural

[placid reef]

like when you turn right for ex you make a small shuffle left before you start turning?

[hollow canyon]

Pachy looked bad with the awful turn rate too

I think it's most visible when you try to turn around by more than 90 degrees

[dusky surge]

i thought pachy's turn rate needed a buff, but i feel it got overbuffed

[hollow canyon]

I think it's fine

despite the fact that I think that Pachy should absolutely get nerfed

that's not what I'd nerf about it

[wise sparrow]

Pachy doesn't need stat nerfs it needs tweaks to the way stuns and spamming attacks work

[dusky surge]

i liked the slower turning pachy, it felt like a powerful animal (especially since MT pachy did INSANE damage), however, the low turn speed allows ambushes

it had strengths and weaknesses

[wise sparrow]

It was kinda absurd seeing a carno tail ride a pachy though

[dusky surge]

that was back when carno had great turn tho

[hollow canyon]

Carno didn't have a great turn since... update 3?

It was pachy that turned like it was stuck in a quicksand

which is something that no animal should be made to to look like

that looks awful and causes the animal to be awful

it might be just a matter of this being a juvie, who knows

the animal takes visible effort to turn around

that looks really off and weird

as if it was trying to fight against some force that's holding it back

Carno shouldn't be turning well while running - at all, the way it turns now is ok in my book

but standing turn is a joke

[rapid flicker]

I agree on you there that the pachy vs utah matchup might be a bit pachy sided. Although if you pounce a pachy for just 3 seconds it gets to half bleed. But still you guys have more speed so if you dont think you can win you can just run away... Fully agree on carno fight is still very carno favoured.

[rapid flicker]

I did extensive testing and 1 headbutt does 45% of utah hp. So you actually need 3 headbutts.

[spring dagger]

You dont, you can just headbut and alt spam.

[rapid flicker]

As i said. i did testing. headbutt tap does less dmg then charged headbutt. and alt attack does about 1/5 of the charged headbutt dmg

Try it out yourself

[spring dagger]

But it doesn't change the fact that you literally need 1 headbut and 2 alt headbuts to kill them.

I know this because i play pachy.

[rapid flicker]

No

You dont kill with that

[spring dagger]

You absolutely do. a charge ram tap and 2 hits with ALT to the body does kill them.

Again, i play pachy alot i know what goes into it.

[rapid flicker]

Ill invite you to hop on my testserver and try it out

Since i literally tested it yesterday

[spring dagger]

I'll tell you ferbatum that the guy dies with a charge and 2 alts to the body mate, its how i managed to be a black hat pachy

But when im in a more stable position i'll take you up on that offer

[rapid flicker]

This is turning into a Yes/No discussion. Only way to proof who is right is to do tests together. Hit me up when you have the time!

[spring dagger]

Sure thing

[sour halo]

huh????

[spring dagger]

What

[half girder]

very nice game, very nice totally out skilled, did utahs get a buff where i cant control my dino?

[fresh laurel]

https://tenor.com/view/the-isle-adapt-git-gud-skill-issue-gif-23598192

[wintry mountain]

Known and reported bug

[hollow canyon]

That looks like a bug that I've seen since update 2, not sure if it's exactly the same thing - let me guess you couldn't buck either?

[stark lion]

known and reported but not fixed 😕

[crimson dune]

Is so funny seeing a pachy player complaining about other dino's bugs

[half girder]

no

[half girder]

just spilling the beans

about something that should have been fixed 😩

[dusky surge]

"i dont like your dinosaur thus your feedback is less valid"

what

[crimson dune]

What

[glass berry]

just react with the number of the one you like dude, not hard. its also how literally everyone posts feedback with multiple potential options and how they vote if they only want a particular one

[alpine plover]

@half girder maybe nake the dismounts aim through keys instead of camera

[wise sparrow]

I dont think cera can hunt stego unless you give it busted stats and abilities. Dilo definitely could take a steg at night in a pack. I'm all for downsizing the two for now though

[spare badger]

Kentro > Stego
Sucho > Deino

[wise sparrow]

Eh... sucho might work but kentro would need another animal with it as it's kinda unapproachable to our carnis

Carno would be suicide trying to kill it and same with utah who would only have 2 pounce spots

[spring dagger]

I think removing apexes would be a fucking good idea. its clear that deijno and sucho are a apex.

[spare badger]

It would definitely be possible in groups or with an ambush. I can't imagine kentro having very much health so if a carno pulled off an ambush it may be able to kill it
It is essentially anti Utah though
Cerato would be the best dino to take on kentro

[spring dagger]

Kentro is 3 tonnes

Cerato is 2.1, 2.3 ish

[placid reef]

what... kentro isnt even 1.5t

[spring dagger]

i thought it was bigger...?

[placid reef]

and cera is 1.3t at most

[placid reef]

nope, cerato, kentro and bary are all around the same weight

[spring dagger]

Ah my mistake then

[spare badger]

Kentro smol

1.2 tons

Cerato is agile and strong enough to kill it
Carno isn't agile enough and will get impaled
Utah isn't strong enough and will get impaled

[placid reef]

utah just gets negated by kentro, samew for stego, both are the counter to utah (and anky but anky is counter to all but rex)

[fresh laurel]

How so not rex

[placid reef]

rex is supposed to get fracture bite or bone break or smth like that so the armour of anky will be much less effective then, ofc the club still exists

[fresh laurel]

Think would be funny if rex could oneshot anky if it lands headshot

Anky could just turn around too