#balance-feedback-discussion

1 messages · Page 308 of 1

spare badger
#

Carnivores should body camp
That's the point
It's their food
They gotta protect it

granite gate
#

i think the real solution to herbi bodyguarding is just to let herbis eat corpses

placid reef
#

raising their imaginary stats, literally

granite gate
#

🙏

fervent tusk
#

You know the definition of herbivore is "strictly eats plants" yeah?

granite gate
#

no???

#

herbi is fat slow version of carni

hollow canyon
#

I mean... I'm not going to comment on how dumb the fact that the current system incentivises leaving bodies because "they are not a part of your diet" is.

granite gate
#

😤

hollow canyon
placid reef
#

wait rn if you eat smth thats not on your diet you get debuffed or nothing happens?

hollow canyon
#

At one point there was a bug that caused grazing not to work

placid reef
#

for carni i mean

fervent tusk
#

You fill your hunger, but get no dietary cores.

granite gate
hollow canyon
#

unless you were grazing on top nof a body

hollow canyon
#

I wouldn't do that now

granite gate
#

also tbf herbis in the wild irl will often eat small birds / rodents if they can, for the nutrients

placid reef
granite gate
#

not completely unrealistic

fervent tusk
#

Exactly, unless I was desperate and starving. Which does happen.

granite gate
fervent tusk
#

You don't get a debuff unless you're a raptor and you cannibalize

#

If you drop all your cores, you have a poor diet and there is consequences.

granite gate
#

the grow time increase is fucking ridiculous imo. like with a perfect diet you can grow at the same speed as pre-diets? stupid asf

#

dino grow times are already stupidly long

#

given you can die at anytime to anything, especially glitches

fervent tusk
#

But if you need to eat and your cores have something in them, eating something that isn't in your diet doesn't do anything but make you more full.

placid reef
#

aha... ye persoanlly:

  • canibalizing is left the same
    -eating whats on yuour diet stays the same, maybe increase percentage gains
    -and eating whats not on diet feeds hunger, you get no debuff, and it gives you the nutrient you have the most of and in decent amount, but overfilling nutrient from non diet gives you the debuff, so you can eat non deit food but its much much less efficient than going for diet

how's this idea?

#

and when i mean a decent amount i mean like a lot more so you can easily overfill the nutrient before you fully feed yourself for ex

fervent tusk
#

What's the point? And what debuff? The diet system right now isn't bad, the main problem is lack of variety for carnivores, but that's an easy adjustment.

granite gate
#

wait whats the grow time on a utah rn on a perfect diet?

fervent tusk
#

Plus it's also fairly easy to overfill your cores on anything once you're full grown.

placid reef
fervent tusk
#

I just don't get what the point in that change would be? It seems like you're trying to fix a problem that isn't there. I'm confused.

placid reef
fervent tusk
#

Ohh I see. I guess that's fair. To me, though, the diet system seems like a supplement. I.e. if you want boosted stats, then go around and eat these different things. I do think they need to readjust the base grow times to be shorter, and maybe reduce the diet grow time buff.
Ultimately, though, there's really no reason why every carnivore shouldn't have a bunch of options, diet wise. Like 5 things for each core. Meat is meat. Most carnivores are opportunistic in nature and will hunt what they can. The only reason I could see for making it specific is to try to keep certain carnivores in certain parts of the map, following the food they need, but the map really isn't big enough to do that, and most already think it's too big.

placid reef
#

personally i didnt get much info first hand from diets first hand bc i wanted to play not hotspost and with that i barely say players and AI, nontheless dead bodies, but ik before diets you found a lot of bodies so ik this would/can be a problem and annoyance

hollow canyon
#

It looks like something that was designed for herbivores and then slapped onto carnivores last moment when the devs realised they needed diets too

fervent tusk
#

Yeah that is very true, but I think that's a bandaid until AI dinos are reintroduced.

placid reef
placid reef
fervent tusk
#

Well the plant nodes are scuffed and everyone knows that. No way that's permanent.

hollow canyon
#

I think the general "idea" of it was designed with herbivores in mind

placid reef
hollow canyon
#

it's just that the map is absolutely atrocious

#

and the plant-placement is completely terrible

fervent tusk
#

Yes.

placid reef
hollow canyon
#

Something inside me breaks when I see the word "rushed" used in regard to the update that took so many months to make.

placid reef
fervent tusk
#

But the carni diet is easily fleshed out when AI dinos are brought back, in my head. I dont't see a reason not to allow carnivores to benefit from eating every type of meat.

placid reef
#

if they can eat anything then there is no point of diets, if thats what you meant

fervent tusk
#

There is. It still encourages players to move and find things if you want to maintain your cores.

hollow canyon
#

I'd just propose a whole different system for them

placid reef
#

ah you meant just hunger not nutrients

hollow canyon
#

that would be tied to gore

placid reef
hollow canyon
#

which(gore) should really have been tied to diets instead of goddamn fractures taking its place

fervent tusk
#

I mean i can sit at nursery lake on a ptera for days right now if I wanted to.

hollow canyon
fervent tusk
#

I wouldn't be surprised to see a big change with the way it was received.

hollow canyon
#

If the devs weren't so cryptic and enigmatic with the diet update during its early stage of development(spring/summer last year), then the community could've likely thrown them half a dozen of better ideas as to how to design the diet system, but instead we got... this thing.

placid reef
#

for me the bigger problems with diets is tied to gorwth and in general the punishment mentality with no rewards

fervent tusk
#

Yeah I dont appreciate how little info they push out considering we're playtesting the damn game for them.

fervent tusk
placid reef
hollow canyon
#

I think one of the biggest issues with this update was that it was tied to fractures

#

It's just complete non-sense

#

there's no way this system took that many months to code and implement

#

I'm pretty sure fractures and all the bagajillion animations that they required was the reason it was taking this long

placid reef
#

diets rn imo are somewhat fine, its more that there is no incentive to try to and do them, people would choose to brute force their way rather thna spent the time doing diets, which idfk how they never realised during QA this... you never punish the player if they do not do what they where supposed to, you need to reward good behaviour

fervent tusk
#

It is rather complicated, even if it isn't implemented well.

placid reef
#

like idk how such a major take in game development with lots of data to back it up was just ignored in a game where its basically a grind to the fun part

fervent tusk
#

Idk either diets need to punish people who want to sit in one spot forever, or be a buff system that adds something substantial to those who are willing to work. I'm for the former, personally. I don't want to have to guess in a fight if the thing I'm going up against is jacked up on all three cores and is gonna stomp me.

placid reef
#

uh... let me pull up my idea for how diet-growth should work

hollow canyon
#

Part of the issue with this dumb mechanic is that it actually allows you if not outright encourages you to sit in a single spot

placid reef
# fervent tusk Idk either diets need to punish people who want to sit in one spot forever, or b...

Diets-growth- The classic topic of disccussion, diets and growth. Before I start I will use stego/deino and the examples with their old 5h growth time (or base growth as i will call it).
Firstly the food spawns would be semi-random, not totaly rng but nor designated a one and be all spot on the map, so jungle food will spawn only in jungles but randomly for ex, this could be attuned via making that there will always be a minimum set number of food in each biome if needed. This would bring more dynamic to herbis gameplay loop and a less sedentary style making them be on the move more, enforcing migrations with bigger herds.
Secondly freshspanws, i'll categoroize them in 2 groups, nestspawns and wildspawns, nestapwwns , as the name implies are the ones that are spawn in a nest, tehy would get 50% of a random nutrient and hunger, 25% of another random nutrient and the last one would be at 0%, this would make the adults know what to focus on first and make smarter moves, wildspawns are the other type, they would get 40% nutrients across the board and 70% for hunger, allowing them to either look for smth to eat suited for them and/or look for people that can help them (they will have dietary needs aswell so no more of eat anything till 50%).
Now for growth times, I’ll start from worst to best diets, so a bad diet should be very punishing since the player in question couldnt even be asked to maintain 1 nutrient and to engage with the system, so going with deino as mentioned above bad diets should add 10h on top of the base growth so in this case 15h+, normal diets would add 2h on top so 7h, good diets will add 1h so 5h and great diet/ perfect diet will reduce 1-1.5h from the base growth so in this example 4-3.5h, make the people dedicated to the system feel the worth of doing so and not just a need to do so.

wall of text sorry

fervent tusk
#

On a carni that's valid, for herbos it's just because of the shit map design, which will be addressed.

hollow canyon
#

And yea the fact that we might have to be guessing whether the animal we're up against is on juice from diets or if it's just a normal stat animal really worries me.

#

I thought that perks would likely break the game via tinkering with the stats of animals but the devs decided for some reason to let people tinker with the stats via diets(or that's the intention) which is just... unthinkable

placid reef
#

diets should never touch stats in any way with a 10 ft pole if its not towards people with 0 nutrients for more than an hour

hollow canyon
#

This game can't be balanced out properly even with 8-9 animals having just their base stats

#

and the devs for some reason want people to be able to tinker with things such as speed, damage and what have you via their diets for every animal? I mean... what could possibly go wrong?

fervent tusk
#

Right now it isn't so bad. Health and stam regen are kinda meh for fighting stats given how slowly they regen, anyway. Scent range, and growth rate are moot in a fight.

hollow canyon
#

Right now it's manageable

#

health and stam regen are neat

placid reef
#

for me its damage and scent that are bs

hollow canyon
#

if you "play the game correctly" you get to spend less time afking while you're healing up/regening stamina

#

which is a good thing

#

although tbh punishing people that afk with making them afk more is a... weird solution in my opinion but oh well

fervent tusk
#

I can buy the dmg thing because it's only effected for poor diets. If you're weak because you eat shitty food, you hurt less. Makes sense to me.

hollow canyon
#

Yea the issue is that it's supposed to get worse

fervent tusk
#

I don't like that

placid reef
#

for me its the fact you spawn with 0 nutrients TI_Wheeze

fervent tusk
#

Word

hollow canyon
#

In the future you're supposed to be able to get your animal to move faster/deal more damage and much more via diets

fervent tusk
#

If there's trade-offs I can see it being okay, at best. Personally I don't think they should get all that in-depth with it. I mean it doesn't track from a realism point of view, and it'll only add confusion and frustration in PvP situations.

#

I'll have to know the base speed and dmg of X dino, then understand that if it's moving slower it's going to hurt more and vice versa, while also knowing what my dino is capable of and how that translates into the fight.

hollow canyon
#

they want to avoid creating a meta that way

#

which is just... baffling

#

because with what they're proposing they will definitely create a meta

fervent tusk
#

If you want to avoid a meta then don't introduce the system, at all lmao

hollow canyon
#

where each animal will likely have an optimal build

fervent tusk
#

yuck

#

that's so dumb

#

I don't see what's so bad about leaving base stats as base stats, hitting you with nerfs if you don't eat right, and non combat buffs if you do. I'm honestly so confused about the direction now.. Is this meant to be a survival/horror game or an arena/battleground game?

placid reef
#

the only way perks could work is if they worked more like: teno: move slower on land but swim faster and now can dive aswell, and stuff like this, bc on the roadmap they say able to support a lot of playstyles so if they just start changing stats left and right...

fervent tusk
#

I could see it being interesting if they got creative with implementation. I heard something about cannibal humans being able to move fast and deal a lot of damage, but had very limited vision. Stuff like that sounds sorta interesting, but I still struggle to see the point in a game where they could stick to basics, and focus on fleshing out the world.

placid reef
#

i think canibal humans are just tribals

fervent tusk
#

Yeah but adding that perk system into the tribals. I'd imagine the tribals will have rudimentary tools; spears and such. Imagine one moving twice as fast and dealing a bunch of melee damage, except it's vision is super blurry.

placid reef
fervent tusk
#

hahaha

placid reef
#

just makes me think of this

KV7wf9g7.png
fervent tusk
#

fuckin perfect

pale surge
crisp junco
#

amazing how people are upvoting balance feedback saying we need to nerf pachys, so i give some examples of how to, and mine gets downvoted 😂 yet no one is suggesting any better solutions
if you cant see pachys are an issue, then you are the issue

dusky surge
#

you literally suggested RNG mechanics on the pachy

#

lmao

#

that's the reason people don't like it

crisp junco
#

what and being knocked out 24/7 is better then it being a chance based system?

dusky surge
#

yes

#

absolutely so

crisp junco
#

lmao in what world is that better

#

it shouldnt be 1 shotting everything

#

thats what is making everyone play it

dusky surge
#

because at least it isn't up to literal random chance

crisp junco
#

then how would you suggest you fix them

#

or are you a pachy advocator

dusky surge
#

what in gods name is a "pachy advocator"

#

you are aware that nerfing an animal should not include making the experience of playing that animal inherently unsatisfying. Having knockdown, a core defensive tool for the pachy, left up to random chance, would do that

crisp junco
#

someone who will stand by and say no matter how ridiculous they are, that theres nothing wrong with them and they dont need to be changed when quite clearly they need a nerf.

dusky surge
#

never said they weren't strong

#

just said RNG mechanics aren't exactly great

crisp junco
#

neither is being 1 shot out of nowhere

#

then restart your baby timer

#

just to get to adult again and out of nowhere get 1 shot again

pale surge
#

there's other solutions than implementing RNG mechanics tho

crisp junco
#

no one is providing them

dusky surge
#

you are aware that pachy is incapable of oneshotting utah or carno atm

#

like it PHYSICALLY cannot do enough damage to one-shot either

crisp junco
#

you are aware you get 1 shot, and youre knocked out for 3-5 seconds then they stand over your body and bite you to death right

dusky surge
#

also pachy isn't that fast

crisp junco
#

you cannot do anything because youre locked in a knock out animation

dusky surge
#

in fact it's extremely slow for its size

crisp junco
#

so you watch your body just get eaten it literally happened to me 3 times last night

#

pachy is fast, it can keep up almost with raptors when it charges, forcing the playstyle of them sitting in a bush and then using their charge to get to you in a matter of seconds and animation lock you

dusky surge
#

pachy has the slowest trot speed of any existing land animal and is 5km/hr slower than a utah while both are sprinting. A utah can easily outrun and out-endure a pachy

crisp junco
#

until you stop for a literal second and theyve caught up

dusky surge
#

if you're being chased by a pachy why would you stop

crisp junco
#

um you cant exactly regen stam whilst running

dusky surge
#

you can regen stam while trotting

#

and your trotspeed is faster than a pachy's

crisp junco
#

they arent going to trot just because you are wut

dusky surge
#

i mean, if you wasted all your stam and a pachy runs at you, it's kind of your fault you can't escape

#

you can't really nerf pachy to not punish people without stam

#

otherwise it becomes a pretty shit animal

crisp junco
#

pachy shouldnt be a an aggressive hunting animal, its a herbivore but its become an apex because of how strong it is.

#

It hunts carnos, when it should be the other way around carnos are meant to hunt small game like a pachy

#

If you cant see a pachy how it should be then this conversation is pointless

dusky surge
#

true, but pachy also shouldn't be helpless against a carno

crisp junco
#

correct!

#

but its better then a carno, dieno, utah, basically any carnivore

#

which means it needs a nerf

dusky surge
#

because its speed is so low for its size, without proper defence, it will die against most encounters

#

i'd say a rebalance, some areas need buffing with it

#

like body fractures

#

because holy shit

#

body fractures are so worthless compared to the other two

crisp junco
#

if your body is fractured it can keep up with you

#

how is it worthless

dusky surge
#

body fracture is barely impactful

#

it doesn't do anything to speed

#

and the additional stam loss is very hard to notice

#

compared to leg fractures, which heavily impact speed and head fractures which reduce both damage and vision, body fractures fall short

spring dagger
#

I mean the way you rectify Pachy is actually make it so that it has to charge up its ram in order to use it, the bone break is so fucking easy to get off if you tap it. Also remove the stun on the ALT attack when it's against utahs, since utahs get hard-bodied by Pachy; for those that say "But 1 pounce kills it" good luck, if you miss you die; as it should be, but pachy can just charge into the Utah to cancel out the pounce eitherway because it can just tap it.

dusky surge
#

I'm personally fine with the knockdown on alt-bite, I just feel that the alt-bite should be slower and use more stam

spring dagger
#

I mean put it this way, one charge + alt bite spam is enough to kill a utah in 1 combo because it is stun-locked

#

you can stunlock carnos with it too if you coordinate yourself with pack members

dusky surge
#

alt-bite cannot stun carnos

spring dagger
#

That alone is justification for the removal of the stun imo, it's an overtuned animal.

dusky surge
#

like it just can't

spring dagger
#

It does, its just you have to hit the head with it

#

It's rare but its happened to me many times

#

It wouldn't be so bad if the hitbox wasn't borked tho

#

As well the fact that the charge stuns a carno makes it super easy to get off the bone break on the leg, you just tap once, hit the leg, loop around and tap again and he's pretty much broken.

#

That in combination with herd-mates is pretty much a death sentence for a carno now.

dusky surge
#

If I were to change pachy, I'd do a few things

  • Buff body fracture
  • Nerf alt-bite heavily, increasing stam consumption and reducing the speed at which it attacks (perhaps even giving it a bit of winddown to leave it vulnerable on whiff)
  • Reduce turn radius
  • Make it that a charged ram cannot be used while sprinting, charged rams can be held forever (meaning you can stand upright forever unless you cancel yourself) but remove your ability to sprint and the damage on a charged ram is always the current damage for a charged sprinting ram

This means that the charged ram is a primarily powerful defensive move, and can be used as threatening displays and pachy's primary weakness comes from being flanked, while not being a worthless animal

spring dagger
#

The charged ram thing would just make it useless though

#

Carno charge exists

#

Its 1 charge + 2 bites and you die

dusky surge
#

Then don't do it when a carno is charging

#

Or just headbutt the fucker when he runs right at you

spring dagger
#

Its alright saying that, but you have to know the guy is coming which most of the time you do, but the bushes offer excellent cover so it's just not a viable thing

#

And whose to say its not bait?

#

Yeah it adds that dynamic, but it would be so tideous i think, idk.

dusky surge
#

i find the current issue with the charge is you have to get the timing perfect

#

otherwise you just go back down and look like a fool and die

#

being able to indefinitely hold means you can pressure predators into leaving you the fuck alone

spring dagger
#

But its not addressing the tap issue as well.

#

people dont hold the charge, they tap it

#

since it comes off so easy

dusky surge
#

tap does significantly less base and fracture damage

spring dagger
#

It doesnt

dusky surge
#

so you COULD do that

spring dagger
#

it does the same

dusky surge
#

it does

spring dagger
#

It still breaks in 2 hits

#

thats the same as 2 full charges

dusky surge
#

from lowest to highest damage
standing tap
standing charge
running tap
running charge

spring dagger
#

It might do lower damage, yeah sure but it still leg breaks in 2 hits

#

consistently

#

thats the issue here

#

Impaired mobility is donezo

crisp junco
#

i literally ran up as a utah to a pachy standing still in and went to bite it and it headbut me without moving and it knocked me out then bit me to death, the stun is broken

dusky surge
#

hence why i want it to be slower

spring dagger
#

Slowness doesn't change it though

dusky surge
#

it turns way too fast

spring dagger
#

You run into the issue of:

#

"Its too slow, we need to buff it"

#

or "Its still too strong"

dusky surge
#

im not talking move speed, as in running

#

i'm talking turnspeed

spring dagger
#

Having combat be predicated by whoever stuns first is a dumb idea.

#

It removes all interactivity of combat

dusky surge
#

i mean, frankly, i feel like if that giant fucking headswing didn't at least cause a stagger or a stun, i'd be a tad confused

spring dagger
#

Yeah, but you already have the problem of herds being omega strong

#

why give them another weapon? they dont need it for now

#

If it were later on in the games development i would be all for it, but atm we only have 2 viable carnivores

#

and 2 dogshit playable carnivores that are just always going to be shit

#

Viables being carno and utah btw, deino just gets hard bodied and will always get hard bodied and ptera is just spectator mode as i've said before numerous times.

dusky surge
#

which ones are the dogshit ones?

#

ptera is really really good if you just like surviving

#

ptera is literally the best animal in the game when it comes to survival

spring dagger
#

Yeah of course, its a flyer

dusky surge
#

not so much combat but it shouldn't be doing combat in the first place so TI_HypsiShrug

spring dagger
#

it has that advantage, other than that its just boring and doodoo.

#

which makes it a dogshit playable

#

Deino is an apex sure, but it cant fight for shit, it can only kill its own kind and it has to predominantly scavenge kills from more based carnivores in order to get by, and its diet is terrible.

crisp junco
#

ptera is just to annoy people with your 1 call

dusky surge
#

ptera is a good animal, just a bad combat animal

spring dagger
#

I dont play a game to watch paint dry.

#

I play a game to do stuff and have fun

#

Like im sorry if that comes across as arrogant, but its the same issue with dryo and hypsi atm

dusky surge
#

so to each their own

#

hypsi and dryo literally are not functionally complete

#

like i would play them if they had half the mechanics they should

crisp junco
#

hyspi and dryo should be ai

spring dagger
#

But they were still added anyway

dusky surge
#

absolutely disagree

#

hypsi has so much more it can do planned for it

spring dagger
#

I mean if hypsi is a climber, sure

#

that will be sick

dusky surge
#

it is a planned climber, yes

crisp junco
#

bet my bottom dollar in 3 years time when hyspi is finished itll get played once and then people will realise its not that fun because itll just be another 'survival animal' like ptera

dusky surge
#

nah man

#

once hypsi can leap through the trees and fuck with people from above

#

100% playing the hell out of that little bird bastard

spring dagger
#

I mean the dynamic is interesting for herrara

dusky surge
#

yea, it'd still have to handle the herrerra hunting it too

spring dagger
#

But the thing is right

#

What happens with its spit?

#

the spit isnt exactly useful cause the games mechanics

#

and if something is leaping through trees it will just miss every time

crisp junco
#

theres literally millions of trees the odds of coming across something standing under the tree youre on is going to be so low lol

#

dinos hide in bushes not under trees

dusky surge
#

i heard that the spit would be somewhat influenced by diet, but i might be wrong

#

right but when there's fucking apexes running around, they ain't gonna be able to hide from my tiny bird fury

#

also its funny

spring dagger
#

But with the rate this game is going

#

its fucking gonna be extinct by the time it hits stable development

#

Cause it was 4 months for a human tech demo and pachy, people have seen it all and have quit playing again, player stats have reduced significantly over the years that evrima has been out

#

people have just been moving on

dusky surge
#

and thus i shall comprise of the entire population

#

i mean, unless another dinosaur game comes out that's BETTER than the Isle, I'm pretty sure it's survival is ensured

#

and looking at PoT and BoB, yea, the Isle's safe

glass berry
#

people keep saying the isle's player base is depleting but ive yet to actually see that be the case. yeah theres a lot of other dinosaur games out there, but its not as if the isle players playing those have just quit this game enmass either, it seems like the majority of bob and pot players also play the isle frequently too. really the only thing ive seen that gives the illusion that evrima is empty is that there's hundreds of community servers that are constantly empty and filling the menu, but the ones people actually use have players on them

#

either way, despite the setbacks the game has had, it has been making progress the whole time anyway. maybe not on things players want, but things the game does need. just because progress is slower than what you want or mostly back end doesnt mean its not happening

granite gate
#

“but things the game does need” ah yes the diet system was so much more important than optimizing the game and yknow… making it playable lmao

hollow canyon
#

Atm the game safely has some 1600-1800 players on average.

#

It's nothing too impressive and a far cry from what it used to be but it's not dead at all.

granite gate
#

it’s been 3 years since dev on evrima started. the two big attractions of it were ptera and deino…. ptera’s hard to play when the optimization is shit and deino’s are constantly glitching around with their fish

hollow canyon
#

Then again the update has been out for a short time so far(what is it... 3 weeks?). And the numbers are typically much better after the release.

#

The current numbers are comparable to those we had prior to the release of update 3(after months of waiting and with the game performing really poorly at the time) which is hardly impressive.

glass berry
#

i'll absolutely agree that the optimization is a massive problem, but its a common problem with that particular engine too. ive def seen points where it did get more optimized over the updates, particularly around 3 and 3.5, and then something happens and it all falls apart again. not really sure what the issue is but most of the frame drops seem to be when looking around at the mountains on my end, and general glitches and bugs

#

optimizing the game and doing things like the diet system are pretty different departments though and i doubt they had the same people who are trying to fix that issue working on diets instead of that- it's kinda like saying the game isn't optimized so why are they working on art assets, yknow?

alpine plover
#

@glass berry I do have to say tho, making stego more "vulnerable" to bleed would also mean nerfing its health. I think the bigger issue is bucking and being able to instantly swing your tail. You could essentially just buck+swing spam and the Utah basically just jumps right into your swinging tail, dying

alpine plover
#

@sharp isle Why outstam them if you can just kill them?

#

Like literally, you can facetank a Carno with claws only

#

Then you also have an attack with long range, very high dmg AND cc, that is also somewhat aimable.

#

You ALSO have another CC attack that does pretty good dmg and you can do a 180° turn with it

#

Not only that but you're pretty damn agile for your size AND have pretty good stam regen

#

Against a super in-agile animal

hollow canyon
#

I'm genuinely confused... is that whole feedback a joke? Dude, you ran across the wall while jumping the whole time. How are you surprised that you've burnt the whole stamina fast? If you're having issues surviving as a Tenonto atm then there's only one fix - l2p - cause this playable is just outright broken good. You have the fastest trot, the second fastest swimming speed, the third highest damage, some of the best CC in the game. Unless you're heavily outnumbered by carnivores there's no excuse to be dying as this animal currently(and even if you're outnumbered you can get away through the water if you stick to the area where this dinosaur is meant to be played).

placid reef
hollow canyon
#

I was going to say that but with how absurdly good Pachy's CC is I'd argue that they are comparable.

#

I think Pachy might be slightly better at stunlocking stuff

placid reef
#

i mean its cc is good just bc it costs like no stam, for the most part

hollow canyon
#

Idk about that being the only reason after I saw a video of a Pachy borderline stunlocking and soloing a Carno

placid reef
#

havent seen stunlocking in action but i did see a baby pachy staggering/ knocking an adult carno TI_Wheeze

hollow canyon
#

I did see a Pachy staggering Stego and Deino cancelling their attacks.

#

And I mean... Tenonto is pretty broken but it can't quite do that

placid reef
#

at leasts tenos slam is in one direction and harder to 360

hollow canyon
#

Yea it's not quite as oppressive as Pachy I'd argue, it's just that its damage output is completely absurd to the point where after landing one attacks it can very often just 100 to 0 its opponent.

placid reef
#

but the game really feels like its just a 180 of legacy at this point lol

hollow canyon
#

I think it's mainly caused by the fact that the devs do balance patches way too rarely

#

we had a pretty decent balance in update 3.5 with just some things needing fixing

#

and they somehow have managed to send it all down the drain

ocean wagon
#

Why did this person expect to be able to run a marathon after hurdle jumping the blocks on the bridge as a teno

placid reef
#

i meant like the game feels so oposite to legacy, there carnis where the meta here its herbis, here we have more "uniqueness" but worse balancing

hollow canyon
#

Yea I know

#

To be fair legacy did have some herbis that were good

placid reef
#

maia moment

hollow canyon
#

and at different points the ones that are bad atm were good too

#

e.g. Para being one of the most broken animals before it got nerfed to its current sorry state

#

it's really quite typical for The Isle to do balancing like this

#

where animals go from absolute trash(Tenonto) to a godlike status

placid reef
hollow canyon
#

It is really really bad

ocean wagon
hollow canyon
#

I'd argue it's slightly better than Cera and Pachy

#

but it's still in the dumpsterfire tier

placid reef
#

like ik its not what it used to be but its def not cera pachy level of bad

hollow canyon
#

no stam regeneration, atrocious bleed regeneration, it gets bled out easily by the faster carnivores

placid reef
hollow canyon
#

Idk about Pachy being worse tbh, while it can get bled out very quickly it can also down something like a Dilo or Utah

hollow canyon
ocean wagon
hollow canyon
#

it's really super vulnerable to bleed for the exact opposite reason than Cerato is

#

it has an awesome bleed resistance

#

but its healing is just so slow that it still loses a tonne of hp before it heals it up

placid reef
hollow canyon
#

It's also slower than Allo

#

and yea its attack bugs out really badly

#

just an awful animal really

#

I'd say it's still better than Cerato although the latter can at least be abused on no alt servers to a certain extent

#

that is - until you run into a competent Allo that knows what it's doing and kills you anyways

placid reef
hollow canyon
#

I think it would be extremely difficult to kill a Cerato as a Utah

#

I know it's doable but it has to be some Sticky-Utah strategy of jumping into Cerato's midsection and placing a single bite

#

It's just very difficult to pull off with Cerato's amazing turn rate

ocean wagon
#

You can ride a cera to death as a Utah though lol

hollow canyon
#

Can you? From what I've seen Cerato turns fast enough to just turn around and munch the Utah

#

it borderline turns in place while walking

ocean wagon
#

It’s not that hard tbh

hollow canyon
#

Well you might be right, I haven't played Cerato on no alt ever

#

I think it's an awful animal all around

ocean wagon
#

On ALT turn servers yeah it’s dog water, but in no ALT turn servers cera is pretty beastly tbh

hollow canyon
#

It's... kind of a decent one trick pony but idk I've never died to Ceratos on no alt

#

and I did kill them quite often as most of the animals I was playing

dusky surge
#

@mossy flax fracture isnt chance-based

sinful cove
#

Why do people want rng bone break back TI_Yikes

#

I want deino to have fracture but i aint upvoting a suggestion that wants rng lol

alpine plover
hollow canyon
#

Yesn't - the cancelling of attacks is a bug

#

the CC does not seem like a bug

#

and I'd argue that Pachy does have a slightly easier time applying its CC than Tenonto does

alpine plover
#

Yeah, and if it weren't for the cancelling then Teno would be better with Cc

hollow canyon
#

I'm not sure about that

placid reef
hollow canyon
#

So it's arguable because Tenonto has 2 attacks that CC everything up to Carno in size

alpine plover
#

So does Pachy

hollow canyon
#

Pachy has 1 that CCs things up to Carno's size(assuming that the attack cancelling goes away)

#

Nah, Pachy has only 1

#

Alt only ccs Utah sized things

alpine plover
#

I guees but Teno is bigger

hollow canyon
#

Yea, but what I'm getting at is: Tenonto's CC is in a way "more potent" because more of its attacks CC larger creatures but

#

Pachy imo has an easier time applying its CC

alpine plover
#

My main reason is because the range of the tail and the kick also beong able to be performed with a 180° turn

hollow canyon
#

That's true

#

but I still kind of think Pachy's CC is easier to apply

#

just by the virtue of it being forward-facing rather than back-facing.

#

that's arguable though, just my opinion

alpine plover
#

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

placid reef
#

and well risk, you dont loose much if you fail one

#

recovery isnt that long and stam kinda same

alpine plover
#

From my experience I find Tenos easier. You find pachy easier

#

Just a matter of what we like to play

hollow canyon
#

The fact that there can even be a discussion about which of these animals is better at CCing stuff is imo an issue

placid reef
#

lol... true

hollow canyon
#

because Tenonto should be vastly better than Pachy at CC

#

That's kind of its whole schtick

#

unlike Pachy which is supposed to be about the fractures

alpine plover
#

Teno is in a weird spot

placid reef
#

imp pachy is in a weird spot, teno just does to much damage

alpine plover
#

They were between the path of "Do we make it an all-rounder for pseudo-mids or a brawler?" But just kinda got stuck on both

slim dragon
alpine plover
#

Cuz to me Teno was always iust an all rounder but not a full out brawler

#

In fact I'd go as far to say that it turns itself into a brawler through being such a good all rounder

alpine plover
hollow canyon
#

I do think it should knockdown things its own size, I don't think it should be doing that to a Carno or Tenonto

alpine plover
#

But then it would be pretty bad tho

hollow canyon
#

I mean it could maybe, just maybe knock back a Dilo, but even Cerato seems too large to me to get knocked back by a Pachy

alpine plover
#

Imo

hollow canyon
#

If that was the case it would mean that it's fractures would have to get buffed

alpine plover
#

Imagine you go to hit somethings leg, great you do, but in return you just got attacked like 2-3 times and are already dead

hollow canyon
#

If Pachy ends up getting attacked 2-3 times while fracturing something then that means the recovery after the ram is too long.

#

It would have to get shortened

#

but it's impossible to tell if it's too long since Pachy just stuns stuff with it

#

Overall the game should cut down on things that make you unable to control your animal or at least ease up on them

alpine plover
#

My problem with pachy isn't even the stun on bigger things but just that attack cancel bug

#

I think when that is fixed Pachy will automatically stoop down a notch

hollow canyon
#

To me it's absolutely both

#

There's no reason why something this small should be stunning animals much larger than itself. On headshots? Sure, but anything than that has no place in the game.

alpine plover
#

But there kinda is

half girder
#

@alpine plover read my feedback

#

do we come to agreement

half girder
alpine plover
#

Do I care? No

half girder
#

oh fr, still on the overnerf pachy huh?

#

ok bozo

alpine plover
#

It's hardly really an overnerf

half girder
#

ok bozo

alpine plover
#

Why so aggro my guy, can I not have my own opinion?

half girder
#

well thats all i needed to know, still some unskilled players in here

alpine plover
#

I can solo Carnos my dude

half girder
#

oh well gn 😴

alpine plover
#

That just shows how OP pachy is

sinful cove
#

Most carno players right now have the brain capacity of a house fly so it aint much to say “i can kill carnos”

alpine plover
#

I mean most Carnos try to fight, so if they do they die

dusky surge
#

its funny too, good carnos can still wreck your shit

alpine plover
#

Instead of running

dusky surge
#

but they don't

#

as long as carnos know when to actually leave

#

they're basically immortal

alpine plover
#

I mean once they have a head fracture and decides to keep fighting, lest you the pachy makes multiple mistakes he's just kinda dead

#

Which is what I do with Pachy usually

#

Stun, while they're stunned break their head

#

If they run they'll live, if they fight they die

#

But man stooping so low as to insult me

#

Even if I'm the pachy player killing Carnos

alpine plover
# half girder oh fr, still on the overnerf pachy huh?

Since your head is so stuck up your own ass tho.

Tap headbutt is fine, and no, you can't "stunlock" creatures, that's all bs. The main issue with Pachy is that the bastard cancels attacks(which is a bug and will be fixed).
Because you can quite literally stop a stego swing as a newly spawned Pachy, which is ridiculous. That is the problem people have. That is what people think the "stunlock" is.
All I proposed after I found out it was a bug was to just maybe nerf the recovery of a missed headbutt because most times a pachy can still just ignore any punish by doing an alt attack.
That is quite it.
But if you go and start insulting me all because I have different opinion, then you can go talk to a damn wall

verbal iris
spring dagger
#

You can stunlock creatures with coordinated groups, the ALT stuns a utah and can stun a carno if you hit the head

verbal iris
spring dagger
#

With the charge or the ALT?

#

cause with the charge its anywhere

#

with the ALT you have to hit the head to stun a carno

verbal iris
spring dagger
#

its no problem dude

spring dagger
#

As for actually fighting pachy, For utah it's fucking impossible, one ALT Stuns you and then its a ALT spam until you die, or 1 charge is enough to kill you provided they immediately follow up with ALT spam. Carno you just need to land a charge and its 2 bites to the head to kill them. But if they hit you once with a Tap charge, you can loop around and then break your body or leg and it's pretty much over if theres more pachy's or other herd-mates around. a Solo pachy is not going to be much of a threat to carno

#

It needs a nerf, theres nothing bad for calling for the nerfs of pachy.

verbal iris
# spring dagger It needs a nerf, theres nothing bad for calling for the nerfs of pachy.

Tap charges don't stun carno, you have to get a full charge to do anything to a carno, if a good carno player fights a pachy the carno wins 80% of the time, as for utahs a charge and alt spam won't kill it, it takes two full rams and some alts to kill a utah, giving it many chances to back off, which if a utah is trying to 1v1 a pachy it deserves what's coming
I think pachy is fine the way it is and poeple just need to get good at the game

spring dagger
#

Tap charges do stun a carno.

#

And do full damage, i've been in plenty of fights to know that the tap does stun it.

#

A Charge + alt spam whilst the utah is down does kill a utah 100% of the time, cause again; i've done it. It's an overtuned animal, no two ways about it.

#

You can literally tap charge into a carno, loop around and do it again and it will get a body fracture or leg break in the worst case scenario, hardly an 80% win especially if theres more than one pachy or other herbis there to back them up.

safe mango
#

Things to consider when talking about Pachys:

  • A smart Carno can one combo you

-A Pachy can’t outrun a Utah or Carno, so if you get hit/knocked by a pachy, you probably weren’t paying attention.

-Utahs in large packs can easily take down a Pachy

-The Pachy’s blood pool is pretty small, so once they start bleeding you can quickly drain their blood pool by not letting them rest. The blood pool also effects stamina recovery. Literally just make them bleed and they’re pretty much screwed

-Pachy’s can deal pretty harsh blows, so unless you’re confident that you can take it head on, then maybe back off and wait for some back up

Things are pretty balanced at the moment, in any case, the smarter/more skilled player is going to win. Both sides can outplay each other, you just have to play your cards right

placid reef
#

tf happened here, looks like a warzone TI_LUL

placid reef
# safe mango Things to consider when talking about Pachys: - A smart Carno can one combo you ...

see but when i hear the but a large pack can do it is such a diluted view oand kinda dumb, yes a large pack to take a dino thats of equivalent weight, a pack of the same size that you would need to take down a teno, a creature more than 3 times pachys weight, this is the problem with utah, its balanced around just get more number lul so utah just becomes useless if it doesnt have more than 3 members basically, so utah group si closer to half or more while pachy is still solo, do you see where im going here?

now to go over how utah should be from a nr of members/ fight ( i mean fight/ hunt scenarios):
-utha, like every other playable needs to be balanced around solo play aswell, so solo utah contests smaller critters and and around its size

  • 2 utahs are needed to fight prey its size of higher skill, and prey around pseudo mid size
    -3+ for mids or animals that punch above their weight classes (like kentro for ex)
    -and close to max/ if not max group for anything substantial with medium to high chance of casualties

ofc these are more just placeholders and can vary from scenario to scenario but this is how a pack animal should be balanced, the pack isnt what makes it able to survive, its what allows it to punch above its weight class

#

also the balance rn is heavely favouring herbis, as they do not really have to put much thought unlike carnis, teno has great CC which is good but also has a slam that does the 3rd most damage in the game, pachy has alt and whatever is going on witch its ram, and stego... well, its stego. Carnis are pretty good rn but i have to admit that neither utah nor carno fulfill the role they are supposed to play

alpine plover
#

@versed rune people shitting on your suggestion acting like holding E for 5 minutes to fill up as a baby Utah is good for gameplay. The argument I see used most for the new eating times and the ones that devs used were that it encourages more contesting or something? But if you're near something then don't eat yet, and if you're not then it's just a chore for no reason. Even if carnivore values or speed aren't changed, Pachy definitely needs an increase in eating speed, man gets a portion every 10 seconds and it already has the disadvantage of being immobile and vulnerable both while eating and the short period after eating

dusky surge
#

stomach capacity and eat times are just wack atm imho

spring dagger
#

Blood pool is a non factor for massive packs and the fact that oasis exists which is predominantly where everyone goes, that isn't something that negatively impacts pachy.

Utahs in large packs cannot take down a pachy that knows it's ALT and charge can cancel the utah pounce, one pounce is enough to kill a pachy sure, but your chances of landing a pounce are significantly low on a pachy that knows you're there, even so; the risk of missing the pounce is too significant especially since 1 charge + alt spam is enough to fucking end you, the trade off for a full pounce + your stam to wait for a pachy's bleed to tick down when they can just sit or wallow is not worth the risk.

Pachy cannot outrun a utah or carno but it doesnt need to. It has the best offense in the game at the moment, why would it need to run? if you run as a pachy you basically give up your advantage, your deterent is your aggression but that deterrant is so effective at offense that pachy might as well be a carnivore since it can both dictate the terms of a fight and absolutely body the fuck out of things that it needs to AND get away from things that it cant, (as i've said before; tap charge into a carno then loop around and tap charge into a carno is a guaranteed break, aim for the legs and you're golden)

Carno is entirely reliant on its charge to win against pachy. If it misses, it uses alot of its stamina or has to waste time in prep for another round. (GL with that if they know you're there btw) The Ram attack (tap charge or full charge) cancels the carno charge knock down as well. It's becoming more of a prevelant exploit that's making the animal even more infuriating to fight.

#

Not to mention the general issues i've discussed before, stunlocks, tap charges, Stun on the ALT turn etc etc etc. It's not a balanced animal.

placid reef
spring dagger
#

replying to bean

#

i forgot to use the reply function its been a long day, mb man

placid reef
#

ah alr, kinda guessed who it was but not sure, on the fact you brought that up, i find it hillarious how little thought was put into who takes piority over what

spring dagger
#

yeah

#

imagine a 1.8 kg animal being stopped by a fucking 500kg animal

#

wewlad

placid reef
#

priority with the current roster should be:
teno = carno (no priority), carno/teno > pachy, pachy > utah, pachy > all of the others ALT

spring dagger
#

yeah its ridiculous

#

Like people gave carno shit when it was OP (even though it was relatively fine when teno was buffed up) but those same people dont acknowledge pachy as being busted which is kinda weird to me

alpine plover
#

people who are happy with pachys right now are either pachy players, or have a shit ton of hours in the game so they can sometimes handle them

placid reef
#

or just delusional TI_Trollge

versed rune
# spring dagger Like people gave carno shit when it was OP (even though it was relatively fine w...

It’s because people always focus on the largest animal that they think is “op.” It lets the smaller animals that are busted fly under the radar.

Part of it also has to do with the majority of people complaining that carno was too op weren’t actually bright enough to simply press A or D to juke it. They also probably were bad at carno too and unable to hit anything. Pachy meanwhile turns on a dime which makes it super easy to land hits, so of course they don’t want the animal that has a win button to be nerfed

placid reef
#

honestly i have no fucking clue where they got the nerf its turn from, the only problem i personally had with carno and many other did was just how easy it could turn on a dime, via its super short skid

versed rune
#

Gonna be honest the carno mobility nerfs were fine because if you play smart it doesn’t really affect its gameplay all that much but the damage nerf was just plain petty

placid reef
versed rune
#

“Small game hunter” is a meme

#

People echo it while coping after dying to a carno as anything larger than a utah

#

Carno is best at hunting medium targets slightly smaller than it

#

like tenonto

placid reef
#

thats what its supposed to be, thats what the devs want it to be, but i have no clue if they knew they nerfed thge one thing it needed to hunt small game TI_Wheeze

placid reef
#

carno, at least for what it should be, needs to be able to do fast, small angle adjustments in a charge/ run but suck ass if it tried any 180, normal turning needs to be closer to what it used to be too

versed rune
#

Carno’s damage currently also proves people know nothing about biology. Like. Carno? Short, rounded skull? Abelisaurid? Strong neck muscles? That all equates to strong bite.

Like I know videogames should prioritize balance but if we upped carno’s bite force to 220 and buffed Utah’s hp up to 500 then carno would feel fine

#

But everything that isn’t stego or deino needs a damage buff tbf

#

And pachy

placid reef
#

that you bring up utahs weight, utah always was 500 untill pachy so it cant pin, bc god forbid they made pachy 600+ bc thats def no accurate and kept utah at 500

versed rune
#

Pachy is fine as is assuming everything else got a buff

#

If anything pachy damage could be reigned in a bit

placid reef
#

or pachy just needs nerfed, basically everything else is good, except teno slam maybe, just that pachy is way to overtuned

versed rune
#

But give carno 220 bite, give utah 90, and give tenonto 45

placid reef
#

attack damage or what?

versed rune
#

55 bite damage for utah is obscenely low

#

Primary bite damage

placid reef
#

90 is far to high for a dromeosaur

#

maybe 65, but utahs bite needs to do more bleed than deal more damage

#

primary bf are not even a problem rn, just that carno imo should be raised to the point where it still 3 shots utah, so whatever the max for that to still be true

versed rune
placid reef
#

or give carno 200, same amount of hits

#

and if utah would be back to 500 pachy needs to be 600, since utah souldnt pin it

sinful cove
#

Pachy would only need a small boost, its 50 above utah rn

hollow canyon
#

Carno's bite-nerf was indeed just petty, it doesn't really affect any match ups(aside from Carno vs Tenonto where it adds one additional bite assuming you're killing a Tenonto just with bites).

However I don't think it's the bite damage that was the issue with Carno's nerf. It's the turn rate that got gutted. With this turn rate Carno is anything but a small game hunter. Genuinely if you get hit by a Carno as something small atm that means you were either trying to fight it or you have to l2p. Even prior to the nerf it got on the MT it wasn't hard to juke a Carno as a Utah.

As for biteforces - I think Utah could use a buff. Perhaps Tenonto too, I don't think Carno needs a biteforce buff it more so needs either a buff to its turn rate, a rework to its charge or a buff to its acceleration.

#

I think exploring the last option would be interesting, it would make Carno closer to what it was irl. This animal wasn't capable of turning fast while running at all(although abelisaurs were generally pretty agile and maneuverable, probably just not in full sprint) it could accelerate obscenely fast.

#

Having an animal both have the worst acceleration in the game and an awful turn rate makes it a meme.

placid reef
placid reef
hollow canyon
#

There was quite a lot of people that said that "Carno plays like a bit Utah" and that it should have its turn nerfed to be more like in the legacy.

#

Carno is hardly my favourite theropod or the animal that I was particularly excited for but I have to say that I was really happy that in Evrima it wasn't what it was in the legacy.

placid reef
#

for me it was utah... welp... They fucking did it

spring dagger
#

Put it this way

#

One charge and 6 or 8 bites is what you need to kill a teno

#

Meanwhile 4 head tail slams kills a carno

#

And people are still crying about Carno

hollow canyon
#

Atm you need 10 bites to kill a Tenonto, charge's damage isn't superclear to me, I haven't tested it

#

but either way it's a heavily Tenonto-favoured match up atm

#

ridiculously so I'd say

#

I've had instances where I 1v2ed Carnos on this patch

spring dagger
#

I mean the balance is ridiculously herbivore sided anyway yet people still complain.

hollow canyon
#

It is, indeed

#

I see the comments that "the game has never been balanced as well as now" quite a lot

#

and I mean... I guess if you think that herbivores should be vastly stronger than their carnivorous counterparts then it makes sense that's the case for you

spring dagger
#

The problem is, people want herbivores to be strong solo when their gameplay loop revolves around cooperation, you cant have strong herbivores and practically limitless cooperation potential. You dont need 3 diets, you can sustain yourself off of 1 and just graze which is what people do especially at oasis when you're a full adult.

#

Theres no competition to regulate the population either

hollow canyon
#

I think herbivores should absolutely be strong solo

#

but to me Tenonto was strong previously, before the MT started

#

atm it's just broken

#

same as Pachy

#

and arguably Stego

spring dagger
#

If they spread the diets around i'd agree with you, but atm:

hollow canyon
#

I know, they all just form megaherds

spring dagger
#

yeyeyeye

hollow canyon
#

That shouldn't be a thing

#

mixherding is just as bad as mixpacking

#

that's the reality of it

spring dagger
#

I've hunted these herds on EU 1 and theres so many fucking braindead people that play these herbivores and they die

#

and those are the people that claim carno is OP

#

like i've had tenontos chase me down and run out of stamina, get charged by my friend and then they die cause they have no stam

#

i've had pachys chase me, get charged and die in 2 bites

#

It's these people that are vocal about balance when people should just get a fucking grip and know you can't chase a carno as a solo pachy or tenonto because he's not going to be alone, and if you're out of position you die.

#

So they have to over-buff to cater to the vast majority of people (which is unfortunately people like this) and then fuck the balance over

#

Pachy was terribly broken on MT and it still is though

hollow canyon
#

I think the main reason why balance is this scuffed is because the devs just release the balance patches way too rarely and in the meantime they get a tonne of suggestions thrown their way which ends up ultimately just messing up the balance again

#

e.g. Tenonto was bad on the MT, they'd overnerfed it

#

people started crying about nerfs to Carno and buffs to Tenonto

#

and the devs ended up doing both of these at once

#

making Tenonto strong and Carno just bad

spring dagger
#

Carno needs it's 200 bite force back

hollow canyon
#

I really think that biteforce is the least of the issues with Carno

spring dagger
#

It is fucking ridiculous the fact that it takes a charge and 6 - 8 bites to kill a tenonto

#

meanwhile they only need to hit you once in most cases

hollow canyon
#

the difference in terms of bites vs Tenonto prior to the nerf to now is

#

9 bites before the nerf

#

10 bites now

#

it's really not the biteforce that messes this animal up imo

#

it's the hot garbage turn rate

spring dagger
#

Yeah its not,

#

and it's stamina

hollow canyon
#

and stamina yea

spring dagger
#

speed pursuit predator can barely fucking run for a minute

#

what kind of joke is that

hollow canyon
#

it's just... it has the worst acceleration, the worst stamina and the worst turn rate

#

all at once

spring dagger
#

I'm fine with the turn rate being dogshit if it could just have improvements to it's stamina

hollow canyon
#

Having like one or maybe two of these is okay

#

but all three at once?

spring dagger
#

Since it makes sense anatomically

#

cause carno's caudofemeralis? muscle was very rigid which didn't allow for tight turns, having a lambo carno on update 3 was ridiculous

hollow canyon
#

It couldn't turn fast while sprinting

spring dagger
#

ye

hollow canyon
#

but it had an amazing acceleration

#

and abelisaurids in general were not that bad in terms of turning

#

as in - speaking about walkin/standing turn

#

idk why these got nerfed for Carno

spring dagger
#

oh right

#

yeah yeah i agree with that

#

like

hollow canyon
#

It's fine for it to turn badly while running but why does it turn as if it was stuck in a tar pit even while standing?

#

It even looks bad

#

I compared to what it looks like with Tenonto and Utah and then saw Carno and it's just

#

the first two turn normally while standing

spring dagger
#

Dont you feel like carno is legit the only viable carnivore in terms of PVP now?

hollow canyon
#

while Carno seems to be stuck in a spiderweb

#

I honestly have no idea

#

I only play herbivores on this patch

#

mainly Tenonto

spring dagger
#

Utahs get hard bodied by everything from what i've seen

#

once again

hollow canyon
#

I know that I was clapping Carnos with ease

#

I did give a shot at Utah and killed one Pachy

#

we were both subadults though

#

and he was doing dumb stuff

spring dagger
#

Thats fucked

hollow canyon
#

and I had some help in the end

spring dagger
#

That guy should've never been able to die

hollow canyon
#

he started wallowing mid combat

#

and in the end a larger Utah came over and finished him off

#

either way

spring dagger
#

utah needs nerfs, its bleed is too strong TI_Troll

hollow canyon
#

I don't think that carnivores are worth playing atm

#

I think Utah needs a rework

#

its bite should be stronger

spring dagger
#

They are to make fucking mega herds mad as a carno

hollow canyon
#

It shouldn't be so pounce-centric

spring dagger
#

Thats what me and a mate have been doing on EU1

#

other than that, theres not really any point

#

ptera is awful, deino will forever be a dogshit addition and utah is just not fit for purpose

#

in terms of PVP anyway

hollow canyon
#

I mean I sure as hell find Carno to be the only interesting Carnivore atm

#

I'm hoping they release Cerato and Dilo asap

#

because I don't really like Utah and never did

#

Deino is a terrible addition as you've mentioned

#

I think it's a terrible playable design-wise

spring dagger
#

agreed

hollow canyon
#

and Ptera is just... a flying Dryo

#

so yea it leaves me with Carno that I honestly don't particularly like either

spring dagger
#

I mean if people like playing AFK simulators (Deino and Ptera) then sure, thats ok ig but it's not for me and i dont think its for alot of people

hollow canyon
#

and with the playstyle that the community screeches it should have(the same garbage as in the legacy) I think I'd rather not have it in the game at all

hollow canyon
#

I hate those playstyles too

spring dagger
#

I mean as i said earlier, before:

#

Deino will never be viable simply because of its gimmick and the way it plays

#

Sucho, Bary and Spino players will learn that the water is not safe until they're fully grown and just go on land because they have better land performances than deino

#

And just live off 2 diets or go AFK at the corners of the map

#

Then they'll come back, fully grown

#

O look

#

deino's gimmick is useless, cause it cant grab sucho and spino

#

and bary will be faster than it

hollow canyon
#

I mean the very fact that it's an animal whose entire counterplay is dependent on not-interacting with it

#

makes it an awful addition imo

spring dagger
#

^

#

exactly

#

You can literally

#

turn off the screen and walk away

#

congrats, you've made deino redundant

hollow canyon
#

I was hopeful when the devs spoke a year ago about how they're working on making its playstyle more interesting

#

but in the end

#

I have no idea what it was they were doing

spring dagger
#

They can't make it interesting lmfao

hollow canyon
#

because it's just as boring and bad as I thought it would be

spring dagger
#

its a fucking crocodile, what, do they wanna give it lazers and fucking wings?

#

Crocodiles are lazy hunters, deino is just a big as fuck lazy boy. You cant ever make that shit interesting without making it ridiculous

#

and they cant ever balance it either

#

I would honestly just replace it with a better playable, maybe kapro or boverisuchus (since they're adding megalania)

#

since they might actually be able to pressure the smalls and make more consistent kills as opposed to being bodied by stegos all day.

dusky surge
#

i know a mate who loves playing deino, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be swapped out

spring dagger
#

Thats fair enough, but lets see how he likes it when spino and sucho are added

dusky surge
#

deino isn't going to be doomed by the existence of spino or sucho

#

sucho won't usually share its waterways, sticking to shallower waters and not being an adept diver

#

spino is big, yes, but likely will prefer clear waters where fish are more easily visible

#

these three contenders most likely won't even be near each other most of the time

frail flicker
#

I see Deino being a river/swamp creature, while Spino is more of an ocean or lake dweller if I'm honest, just more fish in the ocean for Spino, plus the beaches and near the beaches it's gonna have its own eccosystem of creatures

spare badger
#

Sucho is shallow rivers/moderately deep rovers
Deino is swamps/deep rivers
Spino is lakes/ whenever the hell it's a spino lmao

frail flicker
#

Fair enough

#

But I definitely see Deino being swamp boi, I just hope there's gonna be a reason for Deino to reside in swamps (as in I hope there's reasons for other players to chill there as well for interaction)

spare badger
#

Bary would be more land dwelling and go to shallow creeks and rivers

spare badger
frail flicker
#

I can see Austro being a river/lake dweller so they're gonna be dealing with Sucho and can definitely run from Spino

Me too, if they can utilize the rivers then it's good for them

dusky surge
#

if only there was any viable reason to enter a swamp, then maybe we'd see more deinos down there

spare badger
#

Yea
Like more fish and swamp dwelling animals

dusky surge
#

what's funny is, exploring the swamp, its got some awesome deino spots and is really an amazing environment for the animal

#

but being so barren, this legit doesn't matter

frail flicker
#

For real

spare badger
#

And there was that drought thing too right
Maybe they'll live in swamps to be safe from that

dusky surge
#

it allows deino to be stealthy and gives it plenty of space to move around, but its just so fucking dead being at the very edge of the world

frail flicker
#

Swamp was practically made for deino, but no one uses them

That'd be neat, but a once in a playthrough event won't keep the deino pop up

spare badger
#

Half the problem is it's in the corner and the world border causes a shit ton of lag

frail flicker
#

I mean I can see large families of tenos there usually, but that's when pond is occupied by carnivours

dusky surge
#

pond is the opposite of swamp. Small, shallow, little to no real good spots to hide and rest, etc

spare badger
#

Bary area

frail flicker
#

When they make different water types and clarity they should have ponds water be different, it'd be nice if they also gave the rest of the map more reason to be explored

spare badger
#

Ponds with small amounts of fish are perfect Baryonyx habitats

spare badger
frail flicker
#

I mean maybe with the existence of Barry deinos will stop hanging around pond, I doubt it, but maybe

#

unless it just gives them more reason to hang there

hollow canyon
#

Swamp overall is the best part of the map, now the only question is... why is it at the very edge of the map?

#

Just move it to the centre

#

It made sense to have the swamp in the centre, I'm genuinely incapable of understanding why they got rid off it.

spare badger
#

If they swapped the position of swamp and pond it would be so much better
Remember when there were 2 swamps in the middle of the map? Those were the days

spring dagger
#

Those were the days

#

an actually fucking interesting hotspot for once

#

but hey >pond time

frail flicker
#

pond is just a mini swamp TI_Troll

#

honestly, if they put pond over by the jungle gym rock formations thatd give that cool little area a reason to be visited

hollow canyon
#

I think we should get the swamp back in the place where it used to be in the centre of the map

#

And also - we could really use some more spawn points, idk why we have few options the way we do now

frail flicker
#

where else would we spawn tho? or did you mean spawn locations inside the main spawn areas [like spawning on the plains side of the center river instead of the forested side]

dusky surge
#

centre swamp would be really nice

#

also with spawnpoints, i'd like to see maybe a system where people spawn randomly around the map in their preferred biomes (but that would imply that some areas of the map are even survivable)

hollow canyon
frail flicker
sinful cove
#

Does… does this guy really want utah to survive a hit from stego's thagomizers?

rancid bluff
#

if you get stabbed by a stego as a utah it's your fault, I understand wanting to give something a chance in a fight but when it's utah surviving a stego swipe, you might as well make hypsi survive a utah bite

sinful cove
#

Pretty sure hypsi can survive a utah bite

rancid bluff
#

a tail shot it can

#

body shot it dies

sinful cove
#

It would be like asking for a dryo to survive a carno ram

rancid bluff
#

can't utah already survive a tail shot from a stego anyways?

#

if it's hit on the tail

sinful cove
#

Not sure, haven’t experienced it myself

rancid bluff
#

the only way I can imagine a utah being stabbed by a stego with no way to avoid it is from jumping off while pouncing

#

which not a whole lot I can think of for the devs to add to give utahs a chance against that either

sinful cove
#

Isnt the kickoff aimable now?

#

It seemed to be when i disengaged pounce last time

#

Not sure how well it works with stegos though

rancid bluff
#

might be haven't tried, but idk if it's aimable to the extent where you avoid a stab

#

I've seen a lot of times where utahs dismount and get stabbed as or before they land

#

it sucks but not much you can do about it unless the devs make it where a utah can climb on top of a steg while dismounting and jump off

sinful cove
#

Unironically it would be cool is things like pounce would function like dragon's dogma where you could latch on to different parts and move around at a stamina cost

#

Of course, pouncing on to certain spots would end more badly than on others depending on the target, would add a bit more strategy

rancid bluff
#

pouncing the tail of a stego

sinful cove
#

lol pouncing on a trike's face and just immediately ending yourself

#

Pouncing on a rex's face and getting chomped

rancid bluff
#

they're already planning on adding that

sinful cove
#

Yeh i saw the trike clip

rancid bluff
#

a face pouncing utah pouncing onto a trikes horns will be great

vocal nexus
#

Pounces into a Gigas mouth

sinful cove
#

Hopefully it means they are also planning on adding more latch points that have different stamina costs and different affects to them. Like pouncing the legs of an apatosaurus vs pouncing its side or the base of its neck

#

Not that utahs would really be hunting an adult apato probably, but still, an example

rancid bluff
#

the pouncing system needs an overhaul, make it less boring to use

sinful cove
#

Right now utah is a one trick pony. Pounce on your flank and run around in circles while you bleed. More latch points and also a variation on the pounce itself would make it more engaging

rancid bluff
#

hopefully they add where different areas bitten increase bleed damage done as well, biting a carnos head is useless bleeding wise but biting the achilles tendon (which I think is just above the ankle joint on dinos) would cause heavy bleed

sinful cove
#

Locational bleed would be cool if it isnt already in yeah. especially if they fix their constant hitbox issues

rancid bluff
glass berry
#

i do like the new tracking system in concept but yeah, it absolutely needs more work done to it. I think if you go beyond a certain range or after a certain amount of time, it needs to unlock the scent and stop tracking it to avoid just being able to track someone forever

dusky musk
dusky surge
#

its a stego

#

it has a giant spiked tail

#

having that giant spiked tail not actually be an effective defence tool even when it hits a utah would be ridiculous

#

also, leaving up mortality to chance is ridiculous

dusky musk
dusky surge
#

because killing is more effective, and its fucking hard to hit utahs. Trust me, if you play utah well, stegos can scarcely hit you and it feels great

dusky musk
#

If the stego plays well, you will die after a pounce. Even with directional dislodging you cannot avoid the swing if the stego knows what he's doing.

dusky surge
#

i've had the opposite experience playing utah

#

managed to survive a stego many times through smart dismounts

dusky musk
#

All the stego has to do is turn as you dismount, and it will catch you even if you go towards the front

rancid bluff
#

if you have packmates with you they can fake the stego into swiping so you can safely dismount

dusky surge
#

personally, i feel that taking on a stego should always include the risk of death

#

stego's thagomizer is its iconic tool and it should demand respect

rancid bluff
#

hell, there's a skeleton of an allo who got stabbed in the nuts just to show how deadly, he lived though, he lived

#

I can see a utah surviving a tail shot from a stego, but a body or head should should be an instant death

#

maybe surviving a leg shot but it's pretty hard to be hit in the leg and not the body too when you're the size of a utah

dusky surge
#

allo and utah are barely comparable

dusky musk
#

If you're bleeding heavily and have to slowly hobble away with multiple bonebreaks, the risk of death is still very much there. If you run, you die from fracture damage. If anyone else catches you with your pants down, you die. If you can't sit down safely, you bleed to death.

dusky surge
#

allo is FAR larger, it's survival makes a bit more sense

#

utah tho? Such a small species would be dead against any hit unless the tail were hit

#

simply put, i dont believe we should be giving utahs or any animals free passes when they should, by all means, die

dusky musk
rancid bluff
#

if a utah can survive a tail swipe from a stego, imagine how easily shrugged off a tail swipe would be from a carno

dusky surge
#

lmao true

#

it invalidates an apex-sized animal imho, especially since the tail swipe almost does 3x utahs health in a single attack iirc

#

absolutely no reason a utah should be surviving such an attack while also dying instantly to deino bites

rancid bluff
#

yeah, so you'd either need to over triple utahs health or make the swipe a third of the strength

dusky musk
#

Not necessarily, it could just be a sort of oneshot-protection system instead.

rancid bluff
#

a system that makes it where you don't die from hits that should've by all means killed you

dusky musk
#

As in, if you're a full health adult utah, you MAY survive a thagomizer strike if your team manages to keep you safe.

rancid bluff
#

not like it'd do any good, if you have a leg fracture from the hit the stego will just run you down and either kill you or bleed you out

dusky musk
#

Okay? so whats the problem then? The stego can still take you out, but at least you have a CHANCE to get away.

rancid bluff
#

that you shouldn't even have a chance of surviving as a utah when you're already hit it's a stegosaurus thagomizer, a utahraptor being swiped by that would be made into swiss cheese, even a carno should be nearly killed or even killed by a stego swipe, but it isn't for balancing

dusky musk
#

The thagomizer isn't some sort of hyperdermic needle or a jurassic lightsaber. It's a massive spiked lash that can more easily transfer its kinetic energy on heavier targets. IRL, a utah would be more likely to be knocked off his feet and heavily injured than impaled on those things to comically dangle off them.

spring dagger
#

Stegosaurus does 1 hit a Carno to the head

crystal drum
#

I really don't see why people are complaining about stegos, your not forced to fight one literally every single dino is faster so you get to chose if you want to fight it or not.

placid reef
#

stego balance wise its good, its just that its at the wrong time in the wrong place

crystal drum
#

As for uthas v stego~ you dont have to pounce it like ever, and even if you go that rout if you do 4 pounces even if stego shakes them of will bleed it out.

dusky surge
#

stego i'd actually say is underpowered in a completed roster, but this is not a completed roster, this is a roster which has no place dealing with a stego

placid reef
dusky surge
#

if i were to face a stego against a rex, i'd fear for how the stego fares tbh

#

stego is the smallest of the apexes and makes up for its smaller size with absurd damage

crystal drum
#

I would say that uthas are by a pretty large margin the most powerfull dino in the game atm

placid reef
#

with pachys exitance... ehh

crystal drum
#

Yeah i think so

#

you turn faster and runn faster

#

its up to the utha to mess up the fight if pachys are to win that

dusky surge
#

that's because pachy is a brawler

placid reef
#

its up to the pachy to have an understading of how busted pachy is*

dusky surge
#

just because pachy doesn't generally control the fight does not mean it is weak by any mean

#

teno also does not control the fights it gets into with carno yet can often find itself the winner

crystal drum
#

If you are forced to 1v1 then maybe id lean more twords pachy

#

but in groups there really is no reason to be losing that as uthas

placid reef
#

imo utah is like carno, fairly balanced but suck at the roles they should be playing, also another thing i find very much wrrong with the game, no dino should be balanced around a group, it should always be in a 1v1 scenario

placid reef
crystal drum
#

you can 1v1 any dino with uthas though

#

it will just take allot of patience

#

I will add though that carnos and uthas has a major advantage when it comes to ambushes

dusky surge
#

true but carnos and utahs are speed-based predators, so they're naturally better

crystal drum
#

Yeah and im comepletly fine with that, but like i think allot want to balance this game as one would a fighting game

#

thats what im seeing allot of at least

#

and thats simply not the chase. If you stride out on your carno without taking advantage of ambushing then you shuld be in a worse spot

#

same with uthas if you ask me

dusky surge
#

carno has more to benefit from an ambush if i'm to be honest

#

the damage and knockdown of a charge are brutal

placid reef
# crystal drum you can 1v1 any dino with uthas though

not a pachy, and in general if a pachy knows what its doing it would take a bunch of utahs to take it down, equivalent to what it would take for a teno maybe, and utha to be most effective you need to be all skilled

dusky surge
#

plus, carno's low stampool means it generally wants the kill fast

placid reef
crystal drum
#

How many pounces does it take to bleed out a pachy? i know the stego matchup but pachys i generally try to go for bites on the heabutt windup

placid reef
#

1 i heard

crystal drum
#

Even with the shake?

placid reef
#

not sure on that, just that everytime someone brings pounce v pachy up they say you pounce one and done

crystal drum
#

then it shuld be more then doable to hunt lone pachys with pounce

#

You do have a small margin of error as a utha i will admit to that but I kinda like that feeling

placid reef
#

more than double what? the number of utahs?

crystal drum
#

"doable"

#

Like possible

placid reef
#

the pachy would be really bad or first time with it bc pachy just needs to spam alt and it wins

crystal drum
#

WHy not stalk them

#

untill they feel safe then

#

again your still the faster dino so you dont have to force the fight

placid reef
#

ALT, this move does everything, costs little stam, is incredibly fast, overrides pounce midair, CC, stun, staggers, knockdowns

crystal drum
#

Yeah its the side swing

#

it has a huge animation lock

placid reef
#

oh also that both of pachys attacks have very little recovery animation, unlike pounce..

crystal drum
#

I mean if you miss the headbutt it feels at least like the same as a failed pounce

#

havent timed it so i dont know for sure

placid reef
#

pachy does have a bug with tap rams but you dont even use rams for small stuff basically

#

idk tf happened during balancing that they thought to overtune pachys ALT so much was ok

#

it negates utah in every way, to the point where it needs a larger group of utahs to take 1 down, and the desync and hitboxes dont helm either, for either side

crystal drum
#

Hmm well maybe i just have not meet a really good pachy yet, but it feels like im the one messing up the times i die to them

placid reef
#

ye like comparing the playables should be done with both at equivalent skill levels, or more lowest and highest, and once you get into that highest range theres very little the carni equivalents can do

crystal drum
#

Aside from oneshoting it with a pounce you mean XD

placid reef
#

but in general herbis rn need way less thought to be as effective as a good carni

placid reef
#

since all of pachys attacks take priority

#

and knock a mid pounce utah

crystal drum
#

Well if it does actually oneshot even with a shake

#

i think thats fair

#

Like if the reward is so high on the pounce it needs to be exstreemy difficult

#

is what i mean

placid reef
#

for ex: even if utah would kill it in 1 bite, it wouldnt matter when you can barely get close without getting stomped, this is the problem, fights should never be 1 dimentional/ sided when we are talking about dinos in the same class with a 50kg dif, pachy beeing a brawler does give it an egde but not a total guaranted win unless its messing around, utha shouldnt need a group to deal with stuff its size, not efficiently, just be able to deal with it in general, having a pack doesnt make you viable, it allows you to punch above your braket

crystal drum
#

Well from the sounds of it you can kill them in one "Bite"

#

Even if its hard to pull off

placid reef
#

like im all fine for a good move when its up to skill and your skill beeing high specifically, but not to how bad or whatever the oponenet was and how pounce doesnt take much high skill outside of know when

crystal drum
#

I think in this chase the healthier gameplay would be if both the pounce and the sideswing got nerfed

#

just make the margin of error a little lighter for both of em

#

I would honestly need a deathmatch server and a cupple of hours to really say how the current balance is but i really dont have much qualms with the balance of the game

#

Honestly im thinking the pounce mechanic might need a complete rework

placid reef
#

like imo how utah should be balanced with packs, 1 is able to take take down stuff smaller thna it and struggle with stuff its size that is designed to be a defender (like minmi, pachy proto) 2 are able to take these down like a 50/50 but stuggle with the dinos in the mid ranking, and 4+ depending on the mid dinos or the higher ranking ones

placid reef
crystal drum
#

agreed

#

only think i like about bleed is tracking with blood

placid reef
#

made a comment once to give it a kick as an alternate move

crystal drum
#

That actually is an interesting idea

#

the charge mechanic is a nice touch

placid reef
#

like if staggers are gonna be in the game at least everybody could get them, but they would ofc last much less than now, so it would last for as long as it takes the person to apply them

crystal drum
#

Yeah staggers are a bit much right now

placid reef
#

so by the time they finish the move your stagger is finished, so it only really affected the fact you have moved spots a bit and that he dealt some damage, small stuff like this can make combat so much nicer

crystal drum
#

I think the ideal for lets say tenonto is to just get a big enough opening to land a tailslam if you aim it well

placid reef
#

no more they hit me with that move, finished it but im still stuck here like... TI_GarboSquint

crystal drum
#

as it is now you can get two in on one stagger

#

something that is pretty darn insane

#

well i think the key is "stagger" not a stun

placid reef
#

stuns imo should not exist, leave just staggers and knocks

placid reef
crystal drum
#

Yeah i think we agree on that

#

Honestly i think the stun mechanics can move to a small stagger and have fractures be more fleshed out

#

If you get a headfracture then i would honestly be fine with something that lasts a bit longer

#

but then fractures allso needs to be a bit more predictable

placid reef
#

stuns are such a shit idea, just have staggers, make those last way less, and allow anybody to cause them (the timings for it akin to what i said above), and keep knocks for stuff that makes sense, like a pachy with utah mid air, carno charge etc

crystal drum
#

Well we can only hope 🙏 I will say that the combat system so far is a huge leap from legacy (Even though i do adore the simplicity in legacy)

placid reef
#

at least it has some depth, not good one but it has it

sinful cove
#

Aw man i missed the fight with the guy trying to defend his idea of utah surviving a thagomizer TI_Succ

placid reef
rancid bluff
ocean wagon
sinful cove
#

Utah kick should cut stego in half because he has a knife

dusky musk
#

Sure, just keep constructing strawmen and attacking them, because that's some healthy way to argue a point.

sinful cove
#

Something called a joke broh

dusky musk
#

Wow, did youjust miss my joke there bro? xD

sinful cove
#

You mean your suggestion?

dusky musk
#

Look, it's fine that you don't agree with it, but what's the point in continuously mocking it? I see that everyone disagrees with my view, and that's fine.

sinful cove
#

Well because the suggestion was comedy gold

dusky musk
#

How so?

sinful cove
#

Because you want a 450kg shrinkwrapped jp raptor to survive getting impaled

#

By a 6 ton animal that is slow as molasses and easy to avoid

dusky musk
#

Why would it get impaled if it's a tiny shrinkwrapped raptor? How would the spikes even connect without throwing the thing 20 feet away?

sinful cove
#

Because theyre pointy

dusky musk
#

Not that pointy dude.

sinful cove
#

They aint blunt that theyd just knock the raptor away

#

I hope anky club just liquifies a raptor and throws it 50 feet though

dusky musk
#

Sure, but they probably wouldn't turn it into a shish kebab that dangles of them either.

sinful cove
#

Even an unsharpened knife can impale somebody

dusky musk
#

And you immediately die when impaled by that knife I suppose.

sinful cove
#

Or a stake being swung with massive force

placid reef
#

you know that if you throw smth hard enough, no matter how blunt it is it will go trough? ye thats stego basically

sinful cove
#

If youre 450kg and get impaled by a stake swung with massive force by a 6 ton behemoth then yeah it would be comical to just survive thay

#

Thats some anime shit

dusky musk
#

I never said utah should "just survive it" but get a small chance to escape with a debilitating injury.

sinful cove
#

coughs up 10 liters of blood “let me sit this one out and heal all my ruptured vital organs and broken ribs” this is what you want utah to do

dusky musk
#

You know, create some interactive gameplay rather than having the most unkillable thing in the game just be forever unapproachable.

sinful cove
#

Its already interactive

#

Just dodge

stark knoll
#

A smart utah pack can kill a stego cleanly

sinful cove
#

Utah generally isnt supposed to take hits

stark knoll
#

Plus, tail hits don't 1 shot

dusky musk
#

Sure, dodge and then get lagstabbed by wonky hitboxes.

stark knoll
#

Not a balance issue

dusky musk
#

It pretty much is atm.

stark knoll
#

I don't consider bugs and game problems to be part of balance

sinful cove
#

If youre complaining about hitboxes then why not ask for that to be fixed rather than asking for utah to survive getting impaled by something it can easily avoid

dusky musk
#

Well it doesn't look like they're going away anytime soon, unfortunately.

placid reef
#

you dont take a bug in consideration when you balance a game, if you do then its just chaos

dusky musk
#

I don't know that anyone here has access to hit- or hurtbox data, so how can you be so sure anything is bug and not working as intended?

#

If the thagomizer swing is supposed to hit in a wider area than visible, maybe that's intentional to compensate netcode or something.

#

And if that's the case, it would be nice to be able to walk away from one laggy hit, even if it is just barely.

wicked quarry
#

who agrees shallow places need to go bc it makes it easy for any dino to feel safe near the waters edge where they should not bc there might be a giant croc waiting for them but that is not the case due to the shallows for being a realistic dino game this is not very realistic same for the deino's bit force its supposed to be bone shattering not tickle like. a stego can 4 shot a deino to the head and they cant 4 or even 5 shot a stego

sinful cove
#

considering droughts seem to be a thing that's going to come, shallows isnt even necessary for that because it'll happen periodically. I think shallows should be removed outside of droughts where they're gonna pop up as a result anyway

#

there shouldnt be set areas where people can just go and avoid any risk of deinos while drinking, if such safe areas are changing often then people would be more pressed to just risk drinking from deep water

wicked quarry
#

agreed

frail flicker
#

Yeah shallows forming from drought would be a nice mechanic, it'd make the deino life harder than normal and make people feel a bit more at ease when drinking

fallen cave
hollow canyon
#

@dusky musk

Utah shouldn't be surviving a hit from Stego simply because it doesn't have the HP to survive that. Your suggestion doesn't really say anything, if you want Utah to survive Stego's attack you should specify how you want it to be surviving: do you want Stego's attack power to get reduced or do you want to buff up Utah's hp?

#

Because honestly either of those two sounds like a terrible suggestion.

wicked quarry
#

stegos should be nerfed a bit they are so aggressive to denio's its insane

#

denio's dont have bone break which they should it would make walking on land a little less stressful

hollow canyon
#

Stego getting nerfed overall might be a possibility... it getting nerfed so much that its attack doesn't kill a Utah? Nah

wicked quarry
#

and not being able to phase through ppl anymore is so bad 2 stegos block u in and ur done

hollow canyon
#

I personally believe that the Deino-Stego match up should be closer to 50/50 than what it is now but I don't think Deino should have bonebreak

#

just like I don't think that Carno should have bonebreak

#

Neither of these animals is reliant on breaking the bones of their prey to kill them

#

Deino kills via drowning by using its special ability

#

Carno ccs stuff and mauls its prey while it's on the ground

wicked quarry
#

well there bite force is twice that of a rex

hollow canyon
#

It wasn't

wicked quarry
#

serch it

#

A study from 2012 by biomechanist Karl Bates and colleagues found that Tyrannosaurus rex had a maximum bite force of 12,800 pounds. ... That superlative goes to Deinosuchus, an ancient crocodile which was estimated to have a bite force of 23,000 pounds

hollow canyon
#

I know which study you're talking about

#

Yes, it's the 2012 study, its estimate for Deino's biteforce has been called "tenuous" by the very authors

#

Deinosuchus in general didn't shatter bones with its bites

#

we have the fossils of its prey after it got bitten

#

we know what happened to those animals

#

if you want a croc that turned bones into dust with its bites then look at Purussaurus

#

we actually have a fossil of a sloth(iirc) that got bitten by a subadult Puru

#

that thing had its bone pulverised

wicked quarry
#

like crocs and alligators they can but their jaws were like vice grips and they would drown like u said and death roll

hollow canyon
#

but Deino aint Puru

#

Yes, in vast majority of cases crocodillians just drown their prey

#

it's possible for them to break their bones in certain circumstances but it's not exatly the norm

#

Deino doesn't rely on biting its prey to death to kill it, it just grabs it and pulls it into the water

#

which doesn't and shouldn't apply bonebreak

#

most cases if you got a hold of something as Deino - that thing is already dead

#

if you let it go that's on you

wicked quarry
#

also i aint talking about moby if it was a croc im talking about the deino

hollow canyon
#

and even if you had bonebreak it wouldn't really help you against Stego unless you could disable its attack via fracturing it

#

Also - I'm just going to go on and say that the results of that study that you quoted there are... less than believable, the value of its bite there is way higher than in any other study that I've seen

#

Even Erickson and Gignac in their 2012 study put it "only" at 102k N

wicked quarry
#

ok cool 👍

#

still stegos shouldn't be aggressive for no reason that is y realism needs to be a thing

hollow canyon
#

I agree that this match up shouldn't be this Stego-favoured, the idea that Stegosaurus should feel comfortable enough to run into the water to fight a Deinosuchus is kind of absurd

wicked quarry
#

yeah

#

deino has no grip and drag and crocs and gators are fast on land if they want to be

#

the denio should be able to have a super sprint ability if they are close enough to the water in im opinion

hollow canyon
#

Crocs and gators aren't actually that fast on land, the fastest extant crocodillian is the Cuban crocodile which can reach the speed of roughly ~19km/h... that's about as fast as Deinosuchus in the game, despite the fact that Cuban croc is much, much smaller, realistically Deinosuchus wouldn't move anywhere near as fast as it does.

#

I personally think that it should just be more capable of combat on land

vocal nexus
#

I think itd be cool to have a Quinaka or something like that though

proud anchor
#

Pachy knockdown ---> Spam spam spam
How is this reasonable?
There should be a cooldown. This creature basically has a kill-confirm on a full Utah.
All that talk about fractures being it's weapon, I'm not seeing it.
Knockdown is it's weapon.
It's lame, and tired, same as the Teno tail knockdown.
Why is no one playing Teno anymore? No, not because Pachy is new.
Because Pachy knockdown is a trillion times more spammable and thoughtless.

sinful cove
#

Stun or cc locks like knockdown in general could be solved by diminishing returns across the board

proud anchor
#

I feel the issue is one of two things:

  1. The animation being static, and non-moving. You know exactly where to be when the target is knocked down. The exact place of impact. The character just "Lays down" no force-feedback, no ragdoll, no movement at all.
  2. It lasts way too long for how it works currently. It should be bad, but it feels like a death-sentence to be hit by a single ability.

Stun seems super placeholder, while we're at it. It's just so jarring that you're at full speed, and you either get stunned, or knocked down, and your momentum goes from full, to completely stopped. It almost looks like a bug, it's so abrupt.

The whole system needs tender love and care to be passable in a combat sense.

They say they're not making a fighting game, but you add in the Pachy, who essentially functions like a "Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robot" NotLikeThis

#

I'd also add that the getup animation when you're being smashed into the pavement is super slow, and it feels like even after you're fully up and about, you're still completely immobile. It just feels so off-base.

spring dagger
#

Maybe it could work where the get up animations get slower with the more fracture you have?

#

So instead of slowly getting up, you get up instantly and then gradually you become slower as more fracture is applied, it would be a good system for fractures going forward as well

placid reef
proud anchor
#

Exactly. 💯

proud anchor
#

In the end, it's not being used as a defensive tool, because it's too applicable to a hyper-aggressive offensive playstyle.

wicked quarry
#

Stego=busted, shallows=safety around water which shouldn't be a thing if there is a dino to make u hesitant about being around water or risking dying by getting water

spring dagger
#

I dont agree with buffing deino, its fine the way it is, but my friend was talking about having a panic system for when X number of herbivores were present, in order to like thin them out or force them to move away. even then the dietary changes and having greater upkeep will fix the issues with mega herds since they cannot sustain it.

wicked quarry
#

Deino super low dmg and 100% of time loses to stego

spring dagger
#

It's reliant on its gimmick as it should be, buffing deino would just make the game worse

wicked quarry
#

Stegos are bullies to them

spring dagger
#

We've already seen this with U3

proud anchor
#

Deino adult vs Stego adult, Stego should win.
However, the Stego shouldn't walk away unharmed, either.

wicked quarry
#

I agree with a panicking system for large herb packs

spring dagger
#

Stegos with all respect, should bully deinos on land, deinos should be bodied by stegos on land

#

In water however it deino should be able to grab a stego

wicked quarry
#

Like a debuff for dmg and stam would be inflicted

spring dagger
#

I'd agree but herbivore mains will get salty and start crying, like when they cried at carno being "too strong" with 200 bite force and nerfed it down to 175

wicked quarry
#

Not when u try and leave them alone they just go for for no reaskn

proud anchor
#

Carno was too strong, period. (Not an Herbie player)

spring dagger
#

It was when it had 225 BF yeah

#

but 200 was fine

proud anchor
#

It's at a respectable "Small Game Hunter" level of attack power now.

spring dagger
#

With no small game

#

ggwp

proud anchor
#

Raptors are small game, technically.

wicked quarry
#

How often do u see raptors

spring dagger
#

^

dusky surge
wicked quarry
#

Herbs need a debuff if to many are present in an area

proud anchor
#

Wave, thoughts on my knockdown suggestion?

spring dagger
#

I mean they need to control the mega-herds somehow.

dusky surge
#

not by doing that

spring dagger
#

How would you do it?

dusky surge
#

simply make it that diet food is more spread out and cannot be farmed from a single location, requiring movement and competition for existing food

alpine plover
#

Mega herds do need to be sorted out and so do mega packs by default but they just need to spread out the damn plants better and make them less of them in each area but accessible in each area

wicked quarry
#

If no debuff for mega herds make a buff for more than one carni in a area

spring dagger
#

Hardly going to do anything mate, you've not addressed how easy it is to sustain a herbivore diet when it's easy as shit to grow

#

Your food sources dont go away in an instant like most carnivore food sources

dusky surge
spring dagger
#

Food drain is virtually non-existent for herbis either.