balance-feedback-discussion

[alpine plover]

How so?
Giga can't be contested, nor can Rex
One eliminating another just puts another big guy in charge

[keen plover]

Their contest is other rexes

[barren oracle]

Booo

[alpine plover]

I will live to see diets not ascend

[barren oracle]

I love spino

[placid reef]

so canibalism, the one thing everybody agreed was stupid

[alpine plover]

...

Not everyone

What the hell

[barren oracle]

VILLAIN ARC

[placid reef]

the majority

[barren oracle]

ITS STARTING

I can’t wait for the fight scene

[alpine plover]

Kind've a loose argument since no one is batting an eye for Cera cannabilism
Nor for the idea of Rex cannibalism

[barren oracle]

Nacen uses half the roster to beat up the other half he wants to cull

[alpine plover]

People only mind Deino cannabilism because the Deino v Deino mirror matchups are shit, and unfun

Fuck half the roster

It's poorly thought up

[placid reef]

bc ceras makes at least some sense for the scope and intent of the creature, same for deino, looking as these creatures are either solo or in small groups (talking game not irl)

[keen plover]

I think cannibalism is fine

[alpine plover]

Yea

Therefore not all cannabilism is bad

[barren oracle]

Sidekick arc

[keen plover]

😎

[placid reef]

yes, better phrasing: basically everybody agreed that nonsensical canibalism is stupid

[keen plover]

What's nonsensical about rexes being cannibals though?

[barren oracle]

I don’t like losing my Utah in a pin so someone can eat me

[alpine plover]

Better

What makes the different result if a Rex brings down another Rex, rather than a Giga taking down a Rex?

[barren oracle]

Giga cooler if it wins

Other Rex is an asshole

[alpine plover]

Both results are achieved, the larger Apex predator niche still remains either way.

This means that Giga offers no difference other than gameplay variation to justify it a role in the ecosystem

[barren oracle]

villain arc

[alpine plover]

Sure it may hunt certain prey better and use different tactics to do so. But the end result is the same, it's a larger Apex top predator, fulfilling the same role as Rex does in the ecosystem

Thereby rendering it's role redundant

This isn't the case with Allo v Carno/Cera

[calm ibex]

rex is smelly and should be removed if you take so much issue with it

[alpine plover]

If the Allo somehow loses the matchup
Cera still specializes in the scavenger corpse bully niche
Carno still specializes in the small game hunter niche

No niche is lost, they still keep their respective roles even before and after altercations

[placid reef]

so you contradicted yourself and reinstituted your comment in the same comment, well then, you just gave the explnation to how it is dif then negated that by saying its the same role, anything can be dumbed down to such an extent, i and the person next to me may have dif personalities and dreams but we esnestuially fulfill the same role, beeing humans and getting trough life if we dumb it down this much

[alpine plover]

I'll be honest that's a pretty vague and weak argument

[placid reef]

you just said in a way or the other the same idea, giga may hunt and be an apex in its own way dif to rex, but no matter that both achieve it in a dif way they achieve the same thing so either should be negated

[alpine plover]

To piggy back on your example
Say we're stuck on an island, and we need to survive, if I as a farmer, kill the engineer out of survival
That doesn't mean I can become an engineer because of this fact. I'm still a farmer in profession(niche)
That's the only role I can play in that given time

[placid reef]

same as us humans, me and someone else might want to achieve the same thing but we each do it in our own way, so bc its a common achievement either is negated?

[barren oracle]

This sounds like some real nerd stuff

The more Dinosaurs the better

If I want less I go to a server with less

If I want more i go to a server with more

[alpine plover]

These professions are stagnant for the animals in the context of the game
They may do different things, but the professions(ecological niches) are stagnant and fulfill roles within the game's ecosystem

[barren oracle]

If I want only Rex I can go to a server with only Rex

[alpine plover]

Giga may play differently than Rex, but they fulfill the same need within the balance of the niches

[barren oracle]

Not really limited are we

We don’t need to cull everything if everything isn’t together

[alpine plover]

Having another playable only creates a sub class with an arbitrary competition
It's like adding a Jaguar in Africa when there's already a Leopard

[barren oracle]

I’m pretty sure I remember them saying that stuff like Rex won’t even be on official (don’t quote me the blue cat will tell me off)

[alpine plover]

I'm arguing that the sandbox would play cleaner and more dynamically if certain redundant roles were reduced

[barren oracle]

So ugh- don’t have the roles together

I want more dinosaurs 🦕

[alpine plover]

Cool

[keen plover]

Evrima Officials isn't the same as The Isle officials. Unless they mean when the game is complete and rex won't be on the officials- which is absolutely stupid lol

[alpine plover]

I want more dinosaurs with different roles

Not ones filling preexisting ones

Would be much cooler and more unique that way

[barren oracle]

Evrima officials will be smol yes?

Smol stuff

[keen plover]

Evrima sure, since it's a beta

[barren oracle]

So don’t cull everything and make everything unique

[keen plover]

But when the games complete- why would rex not be on officials?

[calm ibex]

split roster 🙂 let apex tier play against other apexes and have their power fantasy 🙂

[barren oracle]

Hope it will

[alpine plover]

? Isn't that what makes the ecosystem interesting
Like the inclusion of tree climbers, advanced burrowing, aquatic creatures

I'd be down to remove Velo and replace it with a feathered Raptor glider

Kiting around the treetops

[placid reef]

so an farmer that has sheep and one has potatoes achieve the same thing, maintaining resources for a comunity or themeselves but bc both are farmers one is more important than the other, sayng that me and x are both programmers is a board term that means nothing, even if we got more in depth, like both are front end dev there is still more to say, apex, is the same as this, is a broad term that reffers to a top tier predator, top of the food chain, and this spot is always contested by outside forces, thats how revolution happened in history, thats how new apexes are born, either sheer luck, superior evolutions or a mix of the 2, both giga and rex are apexes but each have a dif role in it, one is an endurance hunter and the other is an ambush hunter, apex is not the role, the way they affect the ecosystem is, same way as a lion affects the ecosystem in a dif way to hyena, both could be called the apex but each achieve it in a dif way

i see your point, and def there are more than a few questionable additions to the roster, but you go into the base general ranking instead of their niche, for ex Austro is a small tier so bc of that you say its should be scrapped bc Utah exists (or what the reason was), but then utah is an attirtion bleeder and austro a fisher similar to many current day birds, both achieveing the same ranking but owning dif nieches, same as rhino, it a weaker trike, fair but it also is entrensically dif to all other ceratopsians well maybe pachy of we go that deep, by beeing a fracture based one instead of impaling, while styraco and dible for ex both achieve the same roll and ranking so either of the 2 has to be scrapped (unless we go into the instead of new creature make it a skin)

[alpine plover]

Fair point, but that goes to how busted nearly Hyenas are considering that they're highly developed scavengers, their intelligence and numbers give Lions extreme competition if not for their size and strength.
Lions are considered Apex predators, while still heavily competing with Hyenas which are corpse bully/scavengers. Despite Hyena's being highly successful predators. Just because something is an Apex doesn't mean they face no competition or danger.
Giga and Rex being applied differently still results in the same result though
As the top large Apex predator
Gameplay variations make them only a sub class, not a new role to separate them as

[placid reef]

spino is an apex but a fisher, smth that neither giga or rex is, it achieves the same ranking with a dif niche, while i wouldnt say spino irl would be an apex, but with our Isle model,,, ehh

[alpine plover]

Funny you bring that up
But Spino is another example

Spino is only Apex in size range, not as an effective predator in the ecosystem. It being so large yet being a fisher is an example of niche overlap

Shared by Bary,(Austro?), Sucho, Cherry

[placid reef]

ye thats what i said, spino wouldnt really be an apex, just that the devs wanted it to be so... eh, its basically sucho+, or sucho is spino-

[alpine plover]

Which is the result of bloated sandbox

That I'm advocating against

[placid reef]

cherry is a herbi iirc not an omnivore bit even then, not beeing a full carni gives it a dif niche

[alpine plover]

The true original holders of these niches aren't settled into them, often sharing them or rubbing elbows with other sub class versions

Which only muddy the dynamic

And the strong validation of their niche and their justification in the ecosystem

[placid reef]

sucho and spino are very weird as both are very very similar, bary is a bit weird as it might compete with the juvie/sub stages of the 2, austro is in its whole other world so he's fine

aight, time to bring up every dino/ pair/ group of dinos that achieve the same thing in the same way and are bloating the system that

[alpine plover]

Take this for example, say for Carno, it'd be pretty silly to add more creatures that specialize in "small game hunting" would it?
Then imagine making a list of sub class creatures like Carno in different size ranges specifically designed to hunt down small games effectively
Some sub classes more effective or generalist than the others

[placid reef]

rhino v dibble, sucho v spino, bary v sub versions of sucho and spino, plateo v basically every other herbi in that range and/or even maggy, velo oro and taco, ava and proto (if ava is actually gonna be a burrower as well, if not ava v minmi kinda) alberto v sub giga and rex, homalo v sub pachy, mono rugops as awhole are weird untill we see what their role is, acro v giga as a whole

this is every group of dinos that achieve the same niche and role in the same way while beeing in the same ranking/class or very close

[alpine plover]

Right

This is my issue, I can maybe overlook 2-3 of these similarities

[placid reef]

there could be smth for cherry and theri but im gonna wait for more cherry info to say that

[alpine plover]

But when the list keeps going on and on, that's when I notice an actual flaw that will impact the game negatively in the future

[placid reef]

well i just said every group of dino that on of them (either side of the v) has to be cut and i can bet that spino rex and giga are here to stay so thats like 6 dinos that are filler when you take the sub stages into consideration which for apexes we should

i didnt add anything about trike sub/juvie bc by that point trike is much slower and less agile than dible/ styraco or ava so they have more dif then

[alpine plover]

There's no issue with other animals flirting or sometimes briefly using another animals niche

Say for example an Allo scavenging a meal
As long as the bearer of the niche hold the best specialization to justify and defend it's role. It's okay
Allo might scavenge, but never as proficiently as a Cera can.

[placid reef]

but in general, does it look/ do you think i missed any other group/pair that achieves the same thing in the same way while beeing in the same or very close ranking/class, or that i was unjust with some of them?

[alpine plover]

Nah, maybe we might've missed one. But it's a detail that we don't know atm

[placid reef]

ye for like rugops and mono we know nothing on them so who knows, they might bc smth like herra, really out there but fitting

[alpine plover]

Herrara is another example

Other animals might tree climb

But they should never do it as good and as complex as a Herrara could

[placid reef]

herrera imo was done exceptional, bc herra is a very boring and general creature from a gameplay perspective, but making it a climber was still fitting and felt realistic to the model, if we can see stuff like this shown for many of the creatures i listed above...

tho still plateo, homalo, acro, sucho and ava are all lost causes

[alpine plover]

True

Unless they do some batshit insane solutions for them like Herrara

Then they're useless filler additions added only for novelty

[placid reef]

bary can be saved or at leats can be entrensicaly special but sucho with the existence of spino that there is in no way is getting scrapped is a lost cause

[alpine plover]

Why tf even play Sucho when there's Spino?

Sucho is a fisher that's a big bully to the mids

Spino does that job significantly better in all avenues and claps Deinos far better

[placid reef]

thats why i selected them bc for them there almost nothing that can be done to save them, one beeing basically a 1:1 copy of giga, 3 beeing herbis which basically have every role filled, and the other is just spino-

[alpine plover]

By the time you're a sub spino, you've basically achieved Sucho already
With the prospect of growing even more to Apex range

[placid reef]

im fine with the 3 or how many sauropods we have (not maggy i mean the big ones) since they could be done more intresting or bc set that only 1 of them can be available at a given time on a server

[alpine plover]

The issue follows with your other examples too

There is clear bloat or redundancy

[placid reef]

ava is fucked in every way, it cant be a burrower bc proto, then its just a shit juvie trike/ dible or styraco

[alpine plover]

Creatures who cannot justify existing and are added only for novelty

[placid reef]

ngl each day i like the idea of making some of them just skins for other dinos, like acro beeing a skin for giga, and alberto for rex, there is already plenty of liberty done with TI so im fine with this made so they can justify all of this

just like how plateo could in some way be made into an alternate maggy, granted it will need new animations but still

[alpine plover]

Idk

I just think it's lame that if I'm a Sucho, it's gonna be much harder to group up since the guy over played Spino instead and was the obvious better pick

[placid reef]

make sucho a skin for spino, or smth i just came up, make it so you can have a dif skin when you are at a certain size, so juvie pachy can look like homalo for that period, or juvie trike like ava etc

sub spino/rex can be sucho/ alberto respectively during that time

[alpine plover]

Decent suggestions

But it's likely never seeing light of day

Fucked up roster is what we're getting unfortunately

[placid reef]

maybe once mods came out i'll make a mod to fix all this

[alpine plover]

Sadly the devs didn't conceptualize the roster to intuitive extents.

[frail flicker]

@vocal gorge
I completely agree the state hunger is in rn is very annoying, if they kept hunger drain the way it is rn but increased the amount of food body's give you then it might increase competition along with making more hot spots to help with the distribution issue it'd make competing for food more viable instead of trying to catch something for yourself

[vocal gorge]

Yeah.. it just ended up being a bad idea implementing this feature to increase competition with the current state of the game. I could see this working later in the game maybe, but right now it’s just not viable :/

[frail flicker]

Yeah, just gonna have to power through it right now sadly until the devs come back, I hope they fix the main issues when they get back (or attempt to atleast, anything would be good with how food is rn)

[vocal gorge]

Yeppppp

[wheat ridge]

food drain is insane for the last 2 patches, not only do you get way less food value out of bodies, eat alot slower, start with 15% food and you are also lose food faster, they wanted to archive that carnis eat longer at a body but nerfed like 3 things at the same time, carni isnt fun atm, thats for sure

[barren oracle]

Ugh wouldn't water on rainfall just be directly ripping off BoB

[placid reef]

how would reality and physics rip off BoB

[barren oracle]

Dont they Already have a system that is exactly like that

[placid reef]

doesnt make it a BoB system like their perk builder and wacky physic engine, the same could be said BoB and PoT ripped off TI growth

its just a realistic system that would help the environement and immersion greatly

[barren oracle]

bob is an isle ripoff with extra steps

[placid reef]

every dino survival game kinda is

[barren oracle]

Pot just feels like its trying too hard to be unique

[placid reef]

its trying to hard to not feel like legacy when it just is

[ocean wagon]

I wouldn’t mind things like oasis in game if there was some kind of drought system implemented . But being that oasis is just a safe infinite water source slapped dead in the middle of a plains biome where you have a clear view of everything, I suggest just removing as a whole

[frail flicker]

removing oasis wont stop people from chilling at center alone, i think itd be better to add more hot spots further away from spawn locations, because rn oasis is the only viable place to hunt/grow dinos

[sinful cove]

in evrima there are only a few interesting spots on the map, and another big issue is herbi diets are crammed in center or swamp and much more scarce everywhere else. in legacy we had a lot of cool locations at least

everything looks the god damn same on our map minus a couple outstanding areas

it's easy to get lost and wandering is punished once you find a place with suitable amounts of food

[barren oracle]

remove shallow water at center

[sinful cove]

yeah that place is cringe tbh

i dont even go there its a shithole

the condensed diet food there isnt even worth the trouble

[grave veldt]

mushrooms

[sinful cove]

:0

[grave veldt]

there are actually only 4 spawn nodes in the entire map

for mushrooms

and one of them is in the best place yet

center

[sinful cove]

why am i not even remotely surprised

one of those 4 must be the one on the side of the fucking mountain at the edge of the map where you cant even stand on thanks isle

[grave veldt]

diet food isnt even fun to like look for its just a shopping list

[grave veldt]

it is

[sinful cove]

exactly like 3 god damn plants i dont want to walk in a triangle as my gameplay

[grave veldt]

idk whats worse carni or herbi diets

herbivore is mind numbingly boring and carni diets dont work at all

[sinful cove]

also the roots are tedious af i dig for roots 5 times and sometimes one edible piece pops up and after a coconut tree is knocked it sometimes breaks and all coconuts from it become uninteractable

[grave veldt]

yea the diet food itself is still glitched

ill go to dig for potato but the potato is already dug but i do the eat animation while showing the digging

so weird

[wanton hedge]

i was an 100% carno full health and the small guy with acid just one shoted me

[sinful cove]

what

how does a hypsi oneshot you

[wanton hedge]

idk

[barren oracle]

Lul hypsi hacker

respect

Also carno death

thats a plus

[frail flicker]

The hypsi sniper

[barren oracle]

Because of how dumb i am im going to make a hypsi sniper gun mod

where your weapon is a hypsi

I have so many really dumb mods i plan on making

I wonder if i can even use them

do they need accepted/

half of them wouldnt be

I wonder when we are getting mods in evrima

[frail flicker]

I'll definitly use the hypsi sniper, gotta make the reload noises/ anims feeding it a mango or a mushroom

[half girder]

love it when carnos are low bleed and throw themselves in the river

[grave veldt]

^

[frail flicker]

I think the only time I've ever decided to toss my carno off a cliff was when I got chased by a group of like 6 Pachys, got chased from center pond to shallows, had a head fracture, leg fracture and body fracture when I gave up

[half girder]

lol

[slim dragon]

@scarlet onyx Utah should not ever be able to die. It's been designed to kill things, not die to them in any way. It was an apex predator irl, so How can something that is a prey to Utahraptor kill it ? That doesn't make any sense.
Same logic

[scarlet onyx]

Lol what?

[scarlet onyx]

Head fracture = same as death? WTF LOL?

[scarlet onyx]

Worst comparison I've ever heard, bar none. Play with crayons instead

[slim dragon]

It's the same logic
Saying carno can't be head fractured because it is made for using its head as an attack is like saying utah can't be killed because it's made to kill

Or saying stego can't have any fractures at all because it's big and strong

[scarlet onyx]

You are straight up talking out of your ass and its funny watching you backpedal

[slim dragon]

What are you on about ?

[scarlet onyx]

That is nowhere near the same logic. I actually have a reason based on the dino in question on the particular subject, fractures. You're actually just saying something something random about what is meant to be killed and saying it's the same thing, I pity you.

[slim dragon]

But saying carno cannot get head fractured is completely random, if you can't understand the link between what you said and the comparison I gave you, you should think about it a little more

[scarlet onyx]

LMFAO. Who invited this guy. I said carnos shouldnt be head fractured because theyre intended to ram skull first, and their head is clear above pachy, that's apparently as random as saying something shouldn't die for no reason at all. Do you hear yourself?

Don't type. Just stop while you're ahead.

[slim dragon]

Their head is not sturdier than a pachy's at all. PACHY's skull is made to break bones. A human skull is the sturdiest bone in our body, and a hammer is much lighter than a human being. Yet, if you take a hammer strike to the head, it will break your skull. In that case, pachy is like a hammer charging at a carno's head, it's logical that carno's skull gets fractured in the process, even if it takes a few hits.

[deep ginkgo]

why are you so toxic lol

[scarlet onyx]

Just stop bubu this is sad. Human heads aren't made to ram things so why are you making that comparison to a carnotaurus. Your point proves nothing.

[slim dragon]

Actually you're right, I should stop. Your initial reaction and lack of self-control should have warned me that there was no point in trying to explaining things to you.

[scarlet onyx]

Why was your account conveniently created a minute before this conversation took place?

[deep ginkgo]

i just joined the discord lol and you take this way too personal

[scarlet onyx]

Just joined sure bud

[deep ginkgo]

take a deep breath

[scarlet onyx]

Isn't it against TOS to create multiple accounts for a discord?

[deep ginkgo]

its against TOS to be toxic and this is my own account, idk who he is

suggest you stop

[scarlet onyx]

Hilarious

[slim dragon]

Of course I have nothing better to do than creating discord alt accounts and being connected with both at the same time, risking premanent deletion of them both just to argue with some random person on a EA videogame server

[scarlet onyx]

apparently you don't LOL

[slim dragon]

Are you a troll or something ?

[wise sparrow]

Can't come up with a valid argument so just reacts with random emotes

[golden coral]

@scarlet onyxJust because carno is perhaps better at taking impacts does not mean it's immune to fractures, nor should it be. Also I don't know if that whole designed to do so translates to the game version. And as someone pointed out, Pachy is the critter designed to ram things and inflict fractures, carno is not. Carno does ram, but it can easily be seen as more of a full body ram rather than the knock impact pachy does. The best you could argue for is maybe that it should take an additional hit to fracture the carnos jaw, but it should by no means be immune to it. Also there's going to be heavier fracture based critters in the future, so if nothing else, they'll still break carno. Hell, a stego tail swing should most likely fracture a carno head, not that it's needed since it oneshots currently but still.

[scarlet onyx]

I get that but I still don't get the height difference in tandem. At most you could say carno's head is vulnerable while biting but I've gotten countless headfractures while just getting T-boned in a sprint. The only times I can think carno head would be that vulnerable is resting or looking down and it just never happens like that.

[wise sparrow]

Also @scarlet onyx you're entire argument is that it's not "realistic" ...carno didn't use its head to charge prey, teno probably didn't use its tail in combat, pack hunting in dinosaurs is not yet proven. Realism can be tossed aside for balance (or fun)

[scarlet onyx]

Something can also be both unrealistic and not fun, and getting head fractured from pachy hits to the leg that can't reach carno's head is both of those imo. I'm fine with all other fractures in this situation, I even think fractures should be buffed, but this makes no sense to me

[wise sparrow]

If you're getting a head fracture from the side of the legs that's desync

If you get hit head on then that's perfectly fair

Besides I'd be thankful if I got a head fracture cause then I could run away. Leg fractures are scarier anyway

[scarlet onyx]

Well I'm back to explaining my original point, even in full sprint, with both those dinos running at each other, pachy can't physically hit carnos head, it will land anyway as a head fracture. I get desync, but this happens all the time to the point it shouldn't be possible to happen that much

[tender ermine]

leg fractures are a death sentance lol

[rancid bluff]

makes sense, a broken leg was always a death sentence in a fight in The Isle, a broken leg means you can't run or you're significantly slower, if you've got a broken leg at that point all you can do is try to get into cover

[alpine plover]

I mean you can still run lol

[hollow canyon]

That's not true, it was only a death sentence is you were facing a Rex

[half girder]

was hit in the face with an alt bite from a pachy and i was actually stun locked on the ground for like 4-5 more alt bites lol, i hope they tweak that abit cuz i never had that happen when i played pachy so i wasnt aware. WOW

tho it kinda makes sense but for balance naw

[frosty heron]

The posibility of being stunlocked exist, not sure if its a bug but should be fixed, when it happens its damn broken Lol

[rancid bluff]

and if you fall off a cliff?

and predators come over

[hollow canyon]

Depends on what predators, in some circumstances it was possible to survive that

[placid reef]

now you understand what we meant by pachys alt beeing bonkers? lel

[half girder]

you guys were talking about speed

and the stam

and what happened to me never ever happened before

[placid reef]

i think someone mentioned the stun locking but dont know for sure

[grave veldt]

Pachy be like

[spare badger]

@undone hill carno charge already knocks teno over tho?

[undone hill]

K

[spare badger]

So you must be missing your charges

[ocean wagon]

Carno charge most definitely knocks over teno

[sinful cove]

Literally every corpse debuff suggestion i see looks incredibly exploitable

[river nacelle]

Yeah I don't see any way mechanics wise to stop corpse guarding. I think the only way would be to have a private server with specific rules and so forth. Otherwise it's just going to happen

[sinful cove]

Things like mix packing and corpse guarding (the latter problem that i've never run in to but i dont play in the shithole hotspot that is oasis) cant really be resolved in non explotable/intrusive ways and will probably always just rely on moderation to stop

[crude shadow]

i gotta disagree on that one but its a good topic for discussion for sure im interesting in different ideas on how to go at it

[sinful cove]

Ive seen a lot of different people bring up ideas but they all have loopholes

[crude shadow]

like what

its great to find loopholes so you can constantly improve ideas and strategies to better the game for everyone so the more loopholes we know the better too

[hollow canyon]

@crude shadowSo some of the potential issues with what you suggested there are:

1. you could have carnivores carrying small corpses around, following a herbivore pack, while trying to debuff them in a long run
2. carnivores dropping corpses around the nesting areas of herbivores in the future making the herbivores have to desert those nests.

[crude shadow]

yes i thought of all that

some ideas to conteract this would be to set better timers on the corpses

dont have them reset when picked up maybe

good points you have though just need some ideas to solve em

[fervent tusk]

If you're carrying a corpse you can't attack, so you're vulnerable. Bodies despawn, so it nullifies a single plant node for what.. 10-15 minutes? If your nest is easy enough to continually stack bodies on, you should find a new place to nest.

[crude shadow]

I think the easy route is to give up and allow the issue to continue but in the long run that will hurt the game objectively

[hollow canyon]

You don't need to attack, you're not trying to kill those herbivores outright there, you just want to get their stats down before you go for the kill.

[crude shadow]

i know it is tempting for people to simply say "oh well, its a tough issue so we just gotta deal with it..." but telling that to new players or even seasoned ones who have seen this game grow and evolve over many years is a rough sell ya know

[hollow canyon]

Bodies do despawn but I'm not sure how long that takes, I'm fairly certain it's longer than 10-15 minutes.

[crude shadow]

the debuff could stack a reasonable pace, nothing too fast so a dino just drops a corpse and debuffs em immediatly

i want to come up with ideas thats fair for both parties

[fervent tusk]

having it slowly stack is solid. Making it a fairly small radius would be good, too.

[crude shadow]

i admit i dont have a perfect plan just wanna get the community willing to talk about it more

because it isnt in a good place atm

[hollow canyon]

The bodyguarding unfortunately has been an issue since Evrima's release(matter of fact it was much worse at its release).

[crude shadow]

i know it has

thats why we gotta keep butting heads and come up with something, we got alot of smart players out here we can do it

even if we gotta hit a middle ground

[sinful cove]

99% of the bodyguarding is at the one hot spot on the map, same was the case for legacy bodyguarding

The oasis hotspot brews a lot of cancerous behaviour

[hollow canyon]

That's not really true

[fervent tusk]

It's not though.. It happens everywhere.

[hollow canyon]

I've encountered bodyguarding all over the map and I did it in multiple places as a Tenonto

[fervent tusk]

^^

[sinful cove]

I never see bodyguarding outside of oasis but there i see mix packing, megapacking, bodyguarding, etc

[crude shadow]

ive seen body guarding at oasis, all the way to the top right corner of the map in the north east, i think it is easy to say it just happens every where but the intensity is definatly at oasis simply because of population, so you see it more

[sinful cove]

The reat of the map is so dead there is usually nobody around to bother bodyguarding a kill i make or see

[hollow canyon]

Well I can assure you that it happens in other parts of the map too, idk why it wouldn't tbh. My ability to bodyguard isn't somehow connected to the oasis

[fervent tusk]

It happens all over, herbos are bored and there's no downside to starving out a carni

[sinful cove]

The cancerous mix packs bodyguard together at oasis

Because theres so much food there in that singular spot

Herbivores are boring and their diets have made it no better

[fervent tusk]

We're not saying that it doesn't happen at oasis more, because obviously there's more people.. but you're insistence that it doesn't occur anywhere else is just false.

[sinful cove]

Diets on both factions encourage afking once food is found

[hollow canyon]

Diets made both factions more boring somehow

I've afked pretty much just as much no matter what I was playing

[crude shadow]

it is a web of issues i totally agree with you Miragaia, the body guarding is a result of many little issues about herbie that tend to make it boring, the problem comes when the herbie players solve this problem by ruining the rest of the game for the other half of the player base. This isnt a healthy solution in the long run

[sinful cove]

It barely occurs in most of the map because most of the toxic sweaty KFSers and brawlers hang out at oasis

[hollow canyon]

which is - 95% of my growth

[sinful cove]

Not that it never does

[hollow canyon]

Well yea, it will happen the most in the spots where there's most people around but the point stands that you can have it happen wherever there are people.

[crude shadow]

we would also have to play with the numbers if the debuff route was picked

[hollow canyon]

Oasis is probably just the worst offender.

[crude shadow]

was cool is it could be placed on the test servers where everyone could have time to run it back and see how it feels before making a final call ya know

[fervent tusk]

The point is that there's not penalty for it, which is creating a toxic environment. Adding some sort of debuff could solve that. I personally like the idea of sort of a timer leading them to vomit once they spend too much time near corpses.

[sinful cove]

At oasis it is easy to mix pack, everybody wants blood and toxicity is survival

[crude shadow]

tweek the numbers up or down whatever

oh the vomit idea is something i hadnt thought of Steve thats true

could hurt their diet and force them to go find food

[fervent tusk]

It's been suggested elsewhere and it had decent traction. You'd have to tweak it around nests, for sure, though.

[hollow canyon]

Idk whenever I played carnivores I didn't have much of an issue with bodyguarding, it is an issue but it was hardly the biggest issue for me. Atm I just wouldn't play carnivores simply because they're trash

[fervent tusk]

It

[crude shadow]

the tricky part is coming up with something that wont lean too far to one side. Please dont misunderstand anyone reading these ideas, i love playing herbie, i do but this aint beuno right now haha

anyone know what body timers are currently?

[fervent tusk]

It's been my only issue on a utah. You can't eat when catch someone out because friends show up to help, don't make it in time, and just guard the corpse until you leave

[sinful cove]

Carnis have the issue of AI not respawning so once you get a body its optimal to just afk with it unless you want to try hunting at center and get merked by a mega mixpack, basically as boring as herbi gameplay

[hollow canyon]

I'm not sure I vaguely recall from top of my head that it's 30 minutes but it's something I've heard from another person, it's just hearsay.

[fervent tusk]

I want to say bodies despawn after ~15-20 minutes.

[crude shadow]

yea see ive been told the same but it seems inconsistent in game to me, 30 min was legacy with 45 min rib times so they might be thinking of that

[hollow canyon]

Maybe, I will have to test it at some point if I can even be bothered to touch this game in its current state.

[crude shadow]

Body guarding is by far not the most pressing issue i just get so bummed out when i see folks on here say "oh well cant solve X problem so lets just give up it'll never change..." man that must make the devs feel bad too

yea ill go test it here soon

alot of smart folks on here who im sure got some solid ideas

[sinful cove]

I suicided as a compy and went ptera and my compy body lasted until i was 44% growth on the ptera if that gives a time estimate on despawn lol

[fervent tusk]

I don't see any issues with carnis sitting on a body after getting a kill.. you see that in nature all the time. If this game ends up leaning into the horror/survival genre like the tags say it is, then you have to use up resources you get.
Killing something, eating a few bites, then moving on to kill something else immediately sounds like you want this game to be a arena/battleground pvp type, and I think that's just silly.

[crude shadow]

what if like, theres a time limit on when carnivores can drag a kill. so like when a corpse starts to rot or come apart right maybe stop the carnivore player from carrying it, possibly solving the abusable issue some of you have brought up

[fervent tusk]

That could get hugely frustrating for carni players.. imagine you manage to bleed out 1 of a group of 5-6, then spend a decent amount of time fending off the rest. You return to the body to drag it somewhere more ideal to eat only to find you can't move it, and have to try to eat where all of it's friends know it died.

[crude shadow]

and Miragaia you made a great point that right now the ai spawns dont help the problem either, they seem to be all over the place and unpredictable (which might be by design) but creates these awkward situations where this lone utah might NEED that body for food to survive the night and 3 pachy just say "no..."

yea that is true Steve

Ok so ill go back to my first thought of the debuff/buff idea, but to make it more sweet sounding for Herbie players just take away the buff to carnivores yea? just take that away, they dont need it anyway with the bites and bleed and etc... but keep the debuff part, test the numbers, shot gun some numbers at first like 15% here, 10% there then tweek as needed on test servers

[fervent tusk]

I really don't see a downside to making herbis vomit if they spend too much time near a corpse.. expand the radius out for multiple even so they're shooed from the area. There's no reason for them to hang around the dead. If the bodies are near plant nodes, oh well, there's other nodes spread around, go find them. The nesting thing could present an issue, but simply get rid of the debuff is the herbivore is near THEIR nest. They'll have to leave for food eventually and become vulnerable then.

[crude shadow]

thats a good idea Steve, the bit about them being near THEIR nest and losing that particular debuff makes alot of sense that might work

it depends too though because if nest making is like in legacy where its a push of a button, simple, not alot of thought put into it, then this could be abused by herbie players to get around teh vomiting so im curious to see how nest making works

[fervent tusk]

The nesting thing is gonna be V tricky anyhow, savvy carni players will know spots to hang out and wait for potentially vulnerable herbos leaving their nests. But honestly, that's how nature works.. herbos travelled in packs for a reason.

I've heard that nests will require materials, but that could be hearsay.

It would be neat if it took collecting sticks or something for certain species, or an animation of some sort for species that burrow or just dig a crater or whatever. I think requiring nest upkeep could be an interesting mechanic, too.

[crude shadow]

im just happy to get atleast some folks talking about it. This game has so much potential i just dont wanna settle for "oh well shrug just gotta deal with it lol..." attitude

yea stick collecting or rocks something like that

[fervent tusk]

I agree. This is one of the most interesting games I've ever played and there's so much potential.

[crude shadow]

im gonna head out, go test that body despawn thing good ideas though dood

i stop by this particular channel sometimes and the regular balance feedback, cya around

[fervent tusk]

Take care, man, good talking with you.

[sinful cove]

There was a lot of “realistic” “thats how nature works” talk here but in real life, herbivores dont lose their shit or start puking because theres a dead body near them. Forcing herbivores to migrate prematurely just because some sped raptor player runs in and tries attacking 3 tenontos makes herbivore gameplay worse and punishes them for just getting rid of a threat even if no one is there wanting the body. I dont want one -6 iq carno player to be able to decide that i have to go back to my “migration” routine of sniffing in place for 20 seconds, walking 100 feet and sniffing in place for another 20 seconds because the devs continue to force herbivores to do that and refuse to change it, it would make me not want to touch that faction again.

[fervent tusk]

IRL Herbivores don't sit on dead bodies and taunt predators, either. It truly seems like you want this to be some sort of battle royale game instead of a survival game. I don't get it.

[hollow canyon]

In real life they also don't generally stand around the bodies trying to kill the carnivore that got the kill for a lengthy period of time. In general dinosaurs to our current knowledge probably didn't care all that much about one of them getting hunted and killed.

[sinful cove]

don't know where you pulled that notion out of, i don't bodyguard. but i dont want some predator's poor decisions to vacate me from my spot. that is punishing me for defending myself

[fervent tusk]

"Your spot" There it is.. I get it now.

[sinful cove]

no, you really don't, but ok

the process of sniffing in place, walking a bit, sniffing in place, walking a bit, sniffing in place, walking a bit is the most boring garbage in the game and it's whhat is required to find a feeding ground

[fervent tusk]

Nah you think you're owed something, which makes a lot of sense from the way you talk. Hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of survival games are pretty boring until they suddenly aren't. It seems like you want non-stop action, and I'd recommend you find a different genre for that

[sinful cove]

i want to actually be able t enjoy the game, not let some utah that thought it could tank a tenonto ass or a stego tail decide where i can't be

[sinful cove]

okay buddy, nice bait, but you're wrong lol

[hollow canyon]

I bodyguard all the time

[fervent tusk]

So your enjoyment of the game depends solely on whether you can sit somewhere for as long as you'd like?

[sinful cove]

i dont want non stop action, maybe it's just you projecting your own mind set because nthing i've said has translated to "i want to sit around on a body and pick a fight"

[hollow canyon]

^ that's what I do as a herbivore

[fervent tusk]

i want to actually be able t enjoy the game, not let some utah that thought it could tank a tenonto ass or a stego tail decide where i can't be

[sinful cove]

not sure if youre acting clueless on accident or not, because the obvious point her eis i dont want the MISTAKE of one other player to decide where i can't be.

[fervent tusk]

got news for you, man. predators typically determine where prey can be, if they so choose.

[hollow canyon]

Herbivores aren't my go to animals specifically because I like pvp and non-stop action, when I play a herbivore and you allow me to bodyguard I will sure as hell do that.

...which is a bit unfortunate but it is what it is

[sinful cove]

you seem to love putting real life in to a game when it suits your faction

[fervent tusk]

Bruh. You're talking as if you know me lmao I have more time on tenos than anything else

Get real. There's a problem that needs to be addressed.

[sinful cove]

bit hypocritical seeing as you are doing the same shit here

[hollow canyon]

Well to be fair - Tenonto's just really efficient and kind of too good

I have quite a bit of time on it despite the fact that I'm not really a herbivore player

[fervent tusk]

I'm going strictly based off of the shit you

[sinful cove]

not doing a very god job there, mate

[fervent tusk]

you're spewing. You seem to think that my idea of making it to where the migratory creatures have to move on is somehow shit tier?

[sinful cove]

because you seem to insert shit i havent even hinted at in to the conversatin

[spare badger]

Another bodygaurding debate?
Bodygaurding will go when we get scavengers
And if there's a stego bodygaurding just go somewhere else

[sinful cove]

there is no commitment in the game, herbivores are boring as shit, thats why there is bodyguarding. and 90+% of it is at the cancer field that is oasis

[fervent tusk]

As if Oasis is the end-all-be-all to the game's issues.

[sinful cove]

it isnt but what ever

[spare badger]

We can't make herbi players cater to the carno players

And any system that makes herbis get sick when near a body is so fucking abusable

Just have a random Galli drop a dead hypsi near a nest and drive the adults away is daft

[sinful cove]

im just saying its a festering cesspit that makes it easier

[spare badger]

They need to spread diets out more
There is no reason stuff like mountain ash should be at oasis

[fervent tusk]

If myself and a group of carnis spend 20 minutes in a fight, manage to kill 1 or 2, and a stego shows up, I'm just supposed to leave because the stego player feels like sitting on corpses that serve him in no way? We truly don't think that's a problem?

[hollow canyon]

I mean... if a Galli can drop a hypsi near a nest then I'd assume that those nesting herbivores could also pick that Hypsi up and just... remove that corpse?

[sinful cove]

mountain ash isnt even a swamp plant but they stuff it at oasis and swamp lol its like they pulled random plants off google and put them in ??? location

[sinful cove]

galli is omnivore

[fervent tusk]

Man Oasis isn't the point of the discussion, why is it even being discussed..

[hollow canyon]

I thought it was omnivore as in eating eggs, not omnivore as in eating other dinosaur

[sinful cove]

still a part of that factin so it may or may not have body dragging, who knows yet ig

[spare badger]

You can't really solve that without making something abusable as shit. You either have to wait until they get hungry and leave it wait till they put rex in the game and people won't bodygaurd for the fear that a rex will smell the corpse

[spare badger]

If the herbis can drag corpses it would probably make the problem worse
They could easily drag bodies to deino infested rivers for shots and giggles

[calm ibex]

its very difficult "issue" that wont be ever solved most likely, it would be so meme worthy to just chase herbies around carrying small body

[sinful cove]

again there's no cmmitment, players feel that they can just body guard to pick a fight and if they get killed too it's what ever they can just afk grow again

[spare badger]

Exactly why we need a gameplay loop
The game isn't a survival game
It's a PvP game that you have to sit in a bush for 3 hours first

We kinda need elders in the game asap

[fervent tusk]

So hold up.. If you make it to where a corpse has a scent in a radius around itself, that radius being relatively small, and if herbivores stand in that radius for too long, they vomit. Get rid of that mechanic if the herbivores are near THEIR nest so they aren't punished for defending their babies.

[sinful cove]

people treat the game as a death match because 1. diets are boring and 2. they can just watch youtube and sit in a bush to get to adult again

[calm ibex]

so just put random nest on the bodies you camp then

[hollow canyon]

I'm very well aware of that, just speaking about that specific example of Galli dropping a Hypsi. Then again - there could be just harsher limits on herbivores body-dragging.

[spare badger]

What's to stop a carno harrassing a bunch of herbis my carrying a dead hypsi around?

[fervent tusk]

Nesting won't be as simple as legacy, we already know that. You won't be able to set up a nest in .5 seconds whenever you want.

Again, make it happen over an amount of time.

[hollow canyon]

it's not even "can" - it's "they should just watch youtube and sit in a bush" the game makes it so that you're far better off watching youtube than actually participating in the game.

[spare badger]

How does that change anything?

[hollow canyon]

Thank you, growth system.

[hollow canyon]

You could technically make it so that the body has to be large enough to affect them.

[sinful cove]

yeah your epunished for traveling once you find food lmao it sucks. afk simulator, pretty ironic since they wanted diets to help resolve that

[hollow canyon]

Idk if they wanted diets to resolve that

[spare badger]

The nest thing is only one example
But making a body sickness mechanic is just too abusable to feesibly work

[hollow canyon]

I'm pretty sure diets were introduced more so as a tool to control where players go

[spare badger]

And the problem is just worse with our crap roster

[hollow canyon]

which is also ironic considering how badly this turned out too

[fervent tusk]

A stationary corpse. There, fixed.

[sinful cove]

i heard a lot about it urging players to travel/migrate to find plants or follow the animals finding plants

[hollow canyon]

You could technically just run through a nesting ground and drop it there

[fervent tusk]

I addressed that already

[hollow canyon]

Ah let me read up then

[sinful cove]

a corpse that hasnt been dragged, but then again that doesnt even fix it lol

[fervent tusk]

Remove the debuff for herbivores when they're near THEIR OWN nests.

[spare badger]

What about other POI? Hotspots and the like

[hollow canyon]

^ fair point

[fervent tusk]

A corpse on the ground and a corpse in a mouth aren't the same, should be easy enough to code.

[stark knoll]

Migrations are still planned

[sinful cove]

having many POI like the old maps might help a bit but even back then those areas just became ripe with toxicity

[stark knoll]

They're separate from diets

[fervent tusk]

If corpse touches ground for x amount of time it begins to "rot" or whatever, emitting a stink that will make herbivores vomit if they remain in the area for too long

[sinful cove]

if a corpse is rotting then most predators wont be able to eat it either

thats what animals like cerato and pteranodon seem to specialize in

[fervent tusk]

rot was just a substitute word, man, don't get nitpicky

[spare badger]

Yea only scavengers could eat it then

[hollow canyon]

I think it's a metaphor there, he doesn't literally mean having it turn to gore

It's more so - if a body is on the ground and you're not around your nest, you don't want to hang around it as a herbivore.

because after some time it would cause you to vomit

[fervent tusk]

There's a saying in the military, dead bodies attract dead bodies.

Same shit, ya'll/

[sinful cove]

this also might pose an issue in long lasting confrontations vs a pack where bodies drop and moving enough to get away from the debuff zone just exposes yourself to both attack and extra bleed

[fervent tusk]

If your herbo friends start to drop, you should probably think about getting out of dodge anyway

[sinful cove]

did you even read what i wrote lmao

vs a pack, aka pack members are dropping, you are punished for being attacked by a pack

[fervent tusk]

Nope. Closed my eyes and responded.

Of fucking course I read it

[spare badger]

That should just come naturally as the carcass being a POI for larger scavengers (which we don't have yet which is why the problem is so bad)

Imo the point of leaving a carcass should be "y'know a rex would probably smell this and murder me so I should leave"

[sinful cove]

if you kill a utah and the pack continues to attack, you will get a debuff if you dont move, if you mov eyou expose yourself in a crucial situation due to an artificial mechanic against something you arent even doing

[spare badger]

And also yea

If my teno is fighting a pack of raptors and I kill one and the pack is still attacking me I shouldn't get weaker cause I killed one of the aggressors

That's just not fair

[sinful cove]

mainly an issue for large animals where long confrontations are more likely

large, slow animals like stego, who is also more vulnerable while moving

[fervent tusk]

If corpse is on ground for 5 minutes it begins to emit debuff, if you stand near corpse for 10 minutes while it's emitting debuff, you puke. 15 minutes is PLENTY to decide a fight or create distance safely

[spare badger]

How does that solve the original problem if the carnivores have to wait 10 minutes until the herbivores leave?

[fervent tusk]

And these numbers a hypothetical, adjust them as you need. The point is that there's absolutely nothing stopping herbivores from punishing carnivores that did a good job.

[sinful cove]

"begins to emit debuff" but you dont get the debuff until 10 minutes? so what does it do while it 'begins to emit the debuff' lol

[fervent tusk]

It sits there lmao

[spare badger]

Imo no body debuff is required
Just a better roster

[sinful cove]

also yeah this also opens a similar problem to a mixpack 'solution' before. can't i just be nearby and charge predators when they try to go to the body? keeping enough distance to not get the continuous debuff

like a group of pachies i ran in to were doing, hiding in the foliage somewhat of a distance away like viet cong soldiers waiting for a predator to try to eat

they could dodge the debuff that exact way

[spare badger]

True

[fervent tusk]

Ahhh a point. Yeah, you'd have to play with radius sizes, for sure.

[dusky surge]

stegos aint gonna stick on a body if that body attracts shit like a pack of allos or an apex like giga or rex. Issue isn't the herbis themselves, just nothing scares them into leaving the bodies alone and keeping on the move

[spare badger]

Exactly my point

[sinful cove]

so its either useless and easy to bypass or just plain punishment to herbivores for defending themselves

[spare badger]

Even a shitty AI rex would work

[hollow canyon]

The way it works is - the body doesn't do anything for the first 5 minutes, you can stay next to it freely with no issues, however past that point it starts to emit the debuff, meaning that if you stay there for 10 minutes you will puke. It's more so that it eventually pushes the herbivore away from the kill(I probably wouldn't want to wait that long tbh).

[dusky surge]

easy now buckaroo, let's not get too crazy

[calm ibex]

ai rex pls 🙂

[fervent tusk]

I love that you deal in these extremes without offering up any sort of solution lol The games just shit and it's gonna stay that way, huh?

[spare badger]

Lmao

[grave veldt]

[sinful cove]

yeah right now the stego at least has the satisfaction of "if these utahs try to fight me for the body i'll probably kill more before i die, if i die" but they dont get the same feeling when larger animals come in that can use group coordination with less likely casualties

[dusky surge]

i'd rather they drop an actual playable rex that's near fucking impossible to grow than an AI rex lmao

[sinful cove]

they body guard because its just a KtD ratio game for them

[spare badger]

We would need a better roster to prepare for a playable rex though

It would only be able to eat stego

And maybe deino

[grave veldt]

50% growth no preferred diet for predators

[dusky surge]

that needs to be scrapped so bad lmao

[sinful cove]

rex sits on beach and eats turtles until sub stage

[dusky surge]

i fucking cannot stand playing carnivores because FUCK they're boring

[hollow canyon]

Because herbivores are oh so interesting right now

[dusky surge]

they only get actually interesting post-50%

more interesting than 50% free growth card

yea

[grave veldt]

im guessing its just something they added for the time being hopefully it goes away later

[sinful cove]

herbivores are interesting to fight with at least because we have 2 brawlers, but no brawler carnivores yet

[grave veldt]

is utah a brawler?

[spare badger]

True

[sinful cove]

but their diets, and traveling as them is god damn boring

utah is sort of an endurance glass cannon bleeder

[spare badger]

Yea
Diets need to be better spread

[hollow canyon]

I haven't noticed any difference between the two sides, it was all just being in a bush either way after walking for a bit

[sinful cove]

utah doesnt trade hits and run head first in to a fight unless its suicida, unlike a brawler

[spare badger]

Cerato would be our first brawler carni

[hollow canyon]

well - herbivores are just outright better when fully grown so there's that I guess they are "more interesting" in a way because there's a better pay-off for reaching the adult but that's it.

[sinful cove]

cerato was one of my main animals even when it was lame in legacy so i hope its fun

[dusky surge]

in absolutely zero sense is utah a brawler lmao

[hollow canyon]

The growh was just as bad for them

[grave veldt]

with the way pachy works now cera would be demolished

[hollow canyon]

Dw, with the way Tenontow works it would demolish a Cerato too

[sinful cove]

cc resist cera

[grave veldt]

[grave veldt]

i only heard sum ppl say it was so i was curious

[dusky surge]

assuming that a cera would even care about running away. Cera seems like something that would be extremely painful to get within range of

[sinful cove]

some people just think fighter = brawler

[grave veldt]

current pachy could destroy most psuedo mids due to the stuns

[spare badger]

Cerato should easily be able to kill a pachy
It's also much more agile than a carno

The one problem is teno
It should be able to run from teno, since teno is bigger and can knock over a cera

[sinful cove]

brawler hebrivores are proactive defensives, brawlers just thrive on being aggressive and intimidating and having an array of ways to kick your ass

[dusky surge]

brawlers want a fight done quick, if you're in their little area, they have no qualms making quick work of you. Their low speed means they can only use their higher lethality generally defensively, which is what makes them brawlers. Brawlers have little control over the fights they get into due to lower speed, but have the tools to either get the opponent to leave fast or die fast

[sinful cove]

utah is sort of a one hhit wonder

utahs game is to just wear targets down sort of like wild dogs

using bleed

wild dogs dont stay around in the melee for long, they apply damage and diseangage while their target exhausts

[spare badger]

Yea
Wear them out and bleed them

Although Troodon would rely on the 'wear out' with the stam drain venom

[dusky surge]

a spinosaurus, for example, would be the apex brawler. Slowest land speed of the apex trio but can swim to quickly escape threats, has a much higher weight and HP pool than the others and two very large claws designed for slashing the utter shit out of foes

[spare badger]

Cerato should body pachy and carno
And be able to outrun a teno

Examples of brawlers are sucho, cerato, teno, spino, and probably Dibble?

[sinful cove]

legacy diablo definitely played like a brawler despite its typical legacy lack of moves

[spare badger]

Although it's getting a size nerf so maybe more styraco

[sinful cove]

in ev it or styraco will probably be brawler role again

[dusky surge]

diablo was an endurance brawler, which frankly, was fucking terrifying

[spare badger]

Kentro would probably be a brawler too

[sinful cove]

styraco looks like it could be antipounce due to its frill too

[dusky surge]

because it was slow but it was persistent

[spare badger]

Kentro will prob be on the slow side but will bleed you out in minutes if you engage it

[dusky surge]

idk if kentro would be a brawler. Seems more like stego, except it relies more on passive defence than active defence.

[sinful cove]

id probably say sty and kent are glass cannon brawler types similar to pachy

except with bleed/raw damage

[spare badger]

Yea
Get behind pachy and styraco
Get infront of kentro
Makes sense, they have an obvious weak point

[sinful cove]

kent could end up being more defensive reactive though its hard to tell for sure yet

but stego is already defensive reactive so i hope its more proactive

[spare badger]

I really hope kentro is good

It's essentially immune to pounce
It should be more proactive since it should have decent speed and agility thanks to its speed

[dusky surge]

stego isnt even really a brawler since it has one move, no CC, and doesn't really do the whole brawling thing and just skips straight to the utterly absurd damage output

[sinful cove]

kentro is the closest lookin stegosaur ill probably get in this game to miragaia so i hope its fun lol

stego is a defensive, not a brawler, yeah

brawlers are proactive

[dusky surge]

brawlers are not quite aggro and not quite defensive

they sit in the middle

[sinful cove]

brawlers are the "you started this fight, but i'll end it" type, they can take you off guard much easier than a defensive

[dusky surge]

like a carno is extremely aggressive, a stego extremely defensive and a teno somewhere in the middle

[sinful cove]

if you are injured theyre much more capable of preventing you from recovering

[spare badger]

On a scale kentro would be a defensive brawler
Cerato an agressive brawler
Teno in the middle
Something like that

[dusky surge]

cerato is certainly more aggro, since it'd be chasing shit away from corpses a lot

[spare badger]

Kentro wont have good front attacks
Teno has claw
Cera has bite ofc

[dusky surge]

and generally getting into tussles with a lot of other carnivores

[sinful cove]

kentro has good flank and backwards attack, weak front

[spare badger]

Yes
So harder to chase down
Hence more defensive

[sinful cove]

cera is the highschool bully stealing your lunch money

[dusky surge]

which is why I like cera, it focuses more on taking on carnivores than actual herbivores since it prefers to take via force rather than actually do the hunting itself

[spare badger]

It sounds like a sick playstyle and I'm very excited for it

And I hope ceras rip and tear special is good

[dusky surge]

yea, cera needs high power combat to make up for small size

[spare badger]

This looks like it'll do tons of damage and bleed
Good for driving off other mid tiers

[dusky surge]

i do wonder if cera will end up as some kind of bleed-brawler hybrid

[sinful cove]

looks like a snare attack perhaps as well

wouldnt want to get hit with that

good deterrent

[dusky surge]

if it can do enough bleed, things simply will not fuck with it because it would SUCK to lose that much blood

[spare badger]

The bleed would make it easier to make things leave and go rest and give up a body so I hope so

[dusky surge]

bleeding makes the prey run off to wallow or rest

which means more food for you

[sinful cove]

yeah thatll probably be its main tool, "you may kill me but at what cost"

[dusky surge]

cera being a bleed brawler would certainly be interesting

[sinful cove]

if cera isnt particularly fast, septic bite when it eats rotting carcasses could be even more of a deterrent

[spare badger]

Ye
If it hit that on a carno it's only option would be to run and give up its food or bleed out trying to kill the cera
Even if it does kill the cera it would die from blood loss or another scavenger

[sinful cove]

septic wounds which would just take longer to heal or make the location take more damage while the infection lasts and make people consider further if they want to make themselves vulnerable like that

[spare badger]

Certainly interesting

[dusky surge]

cera was also referenced to have "loose skin", so perhaps it might even be more resistant to bleed while being able to dish it out

[spare badger]

Like locked health?

[sinful cove]

locked health, or just general slower heal times on the injury

maybe the injury would be treated by wallowing or in water

[spare badger]

Which puts you at risk of deinos or suchos and stuff
Great deterent

[sinful cove]

yeah i wouldnt wanna kill one measely cera over a gnawed on carcass just to screw myself over after

would fulfull its role

vulnerable wounds or slowed healing may even deter large animals

[dusky surge]

i really like the honey badger concept

cera's existence being a "fuck you" to most of the creatures in the game amuses me to no end

[spare badger]

Same

[dusky surge]

like they can all get away from it but he's just an annoying gross little fuck

[sinful cove]

cera taking the role of those lazy giga players in legacy who literally just followed allo packs and stole their shit lol

[spare badger]

Won't be able to steal from Allo tho

According to the concept art

[dusky surge]

like "oh cool there's a cera guarding a fucking rotting old-ass teno corpse, disgusting beast"
or
"we legit just got food but some cera walked out and kept 3 calling us and biting the air till we left. What, of course we left, I cannot be fucked to fight that annoying bastard"

[sinful cove]

might be able to deter an allo from a low value body but certainly not a pack

cera would die 1v1 to one allo but just the deterrent of the speculative wounding might make an allo choose to simply leave a low value body behind. thats just with the speculative attacks though

[dusky surge]

i'd honestly say cera packs should be able to get larger than carno packs, but not by much

cera seems like something that would get in clan wars then eat the opposing faction

[sinful cove]

what is carno group size now? once cera comes in, carno should honestly be just 2-3, it doesnt need groups to hunt the vast majority of its diet

cera should definitely have the larger group size

[dusky surge]

3

[sinful cove]

oh, seems like a good spot for it

[dusky surge]

i'd put cera at 5-6

[spare badger]

I'd say 5

[alpine plover]

And then it dies

[spare badger]

It won't do it to a stego ofc

A carno yes

[alpine plover]

Not what I meant

Even if it were to do that to a Stego, right after the stun stego just swings its tail and kills the Cera

[sinful cove]

Doesn’t look like a stun anyway, its grabbing its ass, wouldn’t make sense to stun it. A grab like that would probably be a snare. But yeah, it probably wouldn’t end well for the cera to walk up to a stego and grab its ass, but it is just an example model anyway

[alpine plover]

I mean Deino does that to a full grown stego already

Quite literally the same thing

[wheat ridge]

idk all this cool shit for carnis while barely anyone plays herbivores makes it seem useless, it probably gets even worse when more interesting carnis like dilo, allo and so on will be released, doesnt help that many cry for nerfs as soon as a herbi is good, so even more will quit playing herbi, just like in legacy

[river sentinel]

i can totally agree with that lyskir

as a herbivore main, rn its fun as were "on top" tho temporarily as stegos main enemies arent implemented yet rn

and teno will 100% become a feed fodder and will feel almost like para with a maia player base (aka well received though with a weaker attack tho not broken like para is in legacy and only a speckle of players playing it) as i feel the novelty will wear off and as its not very fast, will be easily picked off by allo, cera, carno, giga, rex and those are just those i can think off the top of my head

[slim dragon]

I'm a canri main and I hope herbs will stay as strong as they currently are
Hunting a defenceless prey is boring

[river sentinel]

pachy is really overpowered as for something with a massive bone head and short stubby legs, it can run hella fast, and the tap tap clicky wicky attack

[grave veldt]

well clearly carno isnt picking off tenos too well are they

[river sentinel]

i totally agree

and it also turns it into a carnivore eat carnivore world, and herbivores just sitting and watching cuz carnis know if they attacked theyd drop like flies (legacy)

[river sentinel]

rn no

[slim dragon]

Pachy needs some fine-tuning and the stagger/stun mechannic needs a rework tho
Diminishing returns is a good idea, but I don't think it will be vey effective in matchups like Utah vs Pachy

[river sentinel]

but i mean when people are only playing teno off hand

a single teno can more or less have a 60 40 or 40 60 fight with a carno

but carno has always been well received

[dusky surge]

also feels more realistic. Have you seen how powerful irl herbis are in comparison to their carnivore counterparts? I like playing carnivore and having a challenge to kill a prey item

I would honestly keep herbivores hard to kill but make it that carnivore stomachs are MUCH smaller

So a kill feels more rewarding in all senses

[slim dragon]

Do you know how much of its weight a carnivore currently needs to eat to get full ?

[dusky surge]

Since the fact that carnos can eat almost an entire other carno is ridiculous

No clue

Not the exact numbers anyways

[grave veldt]

it would be nice if a large herbivores main threat is actually finding enough food to keep it alive

[dusky surge]

i agree on that

stegos should be destroying plains worth of food and migrating for more

[grave veldt]

basically if u can get food you'll last a long while but actually getting full is what should be hard

[grave veldt]

yup this

[river sentinel]

i totally agree, its pointless hunting something if its gonna keel over and die, though having a varied method of killing and prey reactions is important.

imma post the more detailed outline for that in general feedback

as it got LONG

[dusky surge]

I don't like fodder prey, I believe prey should both be hard to kill and rewarding in output

[river sentinel]

Exactly

[frosty heron]

This could also end the Stego corpse guarding and the camping hot spots situation we have now which leads Stegos to group in the same spot and mixpack with herbs

[dusky surge]

And with gore, corpse rot would mean you would have to eat quickly to be able to capitalise on it, thus not allowing many hunter animals to rest on a single kill forever

[river sentinel]

paras are kind of fodder prey unless near water as most servers make them water based so they have SOMETHING

[grave veldt]

never thought about that but yea indirectly it would help that as well and every other large herbivore from doing it too

[river sentinel]

well ya i feel like this is 100% true, if u somehow manage to top up lets say that top up lasts you 30-40 minutes of relaxation before it starts to deplete again

as well i feel if herbivores stay near corpses too long, their should be a small debuff of food or diets or such

[grave veldt]

I think para is fine making it work shouldnt be too difficult

[river sentinel]

so they are discouraged from staying by bodies

[fresh laurel]

so uh guys

[river sentinel]

as herbivores usually flee bodies

[fresh laurel]

question

!

[river sentinel]

the fact its head butt doesnt hit 90% is what im referring to

[grave veldt]

i wont answer

[fresh laurel]

how do you think devs will handle giga and acro

:<

[grave veldt]

oh u mean legacy yea para in legacy was garbage same with pachy and cera

[fresh laurel]

i mean their both bleeders while being apexes

[grave veldt]

one having a different method of bleeding then the other?

[fresh laurel]

how so

[grave veldt]

only thing i can think of

i dont rly know

[fresh laurel]

giga ripping chuncks and acro what...

[river sentinel]

mhm

[river sentinel]

i think giga is fine personally

[grave veldt]

pachy in evrima tho

[fresh laurel]

and then there was rex...

[river sentinel]

i think that dino is the issue

give it a fracture system

[fresh laurel]

i think giga was perfect in legacy but rex just made giga seem bad

[river sentinel]

instead of bone break

Exactly

[fresh laurel]

giga could walk down everything it couldnt chase

[river sentinel]

eactly

[fresh laurel]

and with new tracking update

giga is op

[river sentinel]

i think re should be kept as a harder hitter

[fresh laurel]

just bite something and let it run away

[river sentinel]

but be slower

and giga faster but more of a bleeder

give re fractures

[fresh laurel]

rex should have its special power be ambush

[river sentinel]

if it has to have an extra little something

[fresh laurel]

like legacy

but slow base speed

hear me out

its gonna be a dino that wins in face tank

but slow

so it uses ambush

but since its slow...

[grave veldt]

in the facetank world i would like to see it be Spino > Rex > Giga

[fresh laurel]

giga as in losing or spino as in winning?

not sure spino would face tank those 2

[grave veldt]

it should, its playstyle is much more defensive

its much larger, heavier, and is semi aquatic so it cant chase things down

[fresh laurel]

I think giga as bleeder, spino as tank but kinda low dmg, rex as brawler

[fresh laurel]

still low bite dmg

unless we talking about new spino...

ew

[grave veldt]

obviously the new spino thats what their adding

[fresh laurel]

ima be honest the old isle concept art of spino looked cooler

was nice hybrid of real and fiction spino

[grave veldt]

that spino is almost the same size as shant its quite large

[fresh laurel]

spino is still a fisher

though its arms would be not to messed with

[spare badger]

Spino would be a brawler

[fresh laurel]

yea with its hypo design

but i was saying realism

[grave veldt]

I still think spino being a tank works best

[fresh laurel]

but new spino being tank eh

too bad we cant get one more remodel

[spare badger]

Strong enough to make most things flee with high health but can escape by use of water, kinda like how Cera and teno are designed

[grave veldt]

new spino would be quite good at being a tank

[fresh laurel]

maybe

[grave veldt]

its very large, its def not outrunning anything so its main option is defense

[fresh laurel]

but it looks like it could bite harder than rex XD

like new spino feels out of place in the game

[spare badger]

Sucho would be similar

[fresh laurel]

sucho i could see as brawler thats slow

[grave veldt]

i think the fred concept awhile ago for spino was cool

[fresh laurel]

well kinda slow

[fresh laurel]

exactly

[grave veldt]

this one

[fresh laurel]

it was perfect

ngl

wonder why they went full on jp 3

[spare badger]

All brawlers are slow in comparison to similar sized animals
That's the point, they can't run but they can easily fight and scare most things off

[grave veldt]

not sure but then theres anky

[spare badger]

Infinitely better design

[fresh laurel]

watch a aquatic perk of spino make it look like that

[spare badger]

They said no remodels

[fresh laurel]

anky the armadillo

[grave veldt]

there r some key differences between being a brawler and being a tank tho

[spare badger]

Spino is much too strong to be considered a tank

[fresh laurel]

im mad that went jurassic park 3 ripoff over something original

imagine how good some dinos would be with a original design..

besides anky

[fresh laurel]

and then theres camaera

[grave veldt]

spino vs trike

[fresh laurel]

spino vs 5 suchos who wins

[spare badger]

Brawlers would include teno, cera, sucho, spino, and maybe styraco or dibble

[grave veldt]

if all five suchos just dogpile the spino they will win

[spare badger]

Sucho isn't that small

[fresh laurel]

ik

[grave veldt]

sucho is 4 tons

[spare badger]

It's almost Acro sized
2 or 3

[fresh laurel]

ik

[grave veldt]

its quite large

[fresh laurel]

but with ti balancing

[spare badger]

Most likely 3

[fresh laurel]

BUT TI BALANCING

[spare badger]

Yea

[fresh laurel]

we saw what they did to acro last time...

:<

poor acro

[spare badger]

Acro wasnt even a survival animal so it barely counts

[grave veldt]

i take this back since this fight shouldn't rly happen ever except on super rare occasions

[fresh laurel]

spino was viable

kinda

shant

was viable

[spare badger]

But they weren't survival animals so they were never balanced properly

[grave veldt]

legacy balance is pretty bad

[fresh laurel]

hypos were viable

[grave veldt]

rex is balanced

[fresh laurel]

hehe

magma dinos were viable tbh

[grave veldt]

magna dinos seem boring imo

all the other strains have different characteristics

[fresh laurel]

magma were suppose to be hypos if they were limited to their hunger

basically hypo but no always hunger

[grave veldt]

yea thats just boring its literally just a better version of the adult dinosaur your playing

[fresh laurel]

thats hypo tbh

and to be fair

hypos and magma need to be expanded on

necto i think it was were cooler tbh

[grave veldt]

hyper's have extreme hunger loss and you will die fast cuz of it
Neuro have barley any skin or very light skin so you take much more dmg
theres one more im missing but i forgot the name

[fresh laurel]

type s

i think

[grave veldt]

true but unlike magna, theres actual drawbacks to becoming super strong

[fresh laurel]

i would say magma were hypos for players who were new

like didnt know popular spots or you know

couldnt fight well

while hypos are if you know you can get the kill

at all times

[grave veldt]

love talking about strains when they wont come out for at least 10 more years

[fresh laurel]

XD

ngl

strains felt like they were the game selling point

like yea yea normal be dino game

then you see hypos...

[fresh laurel]

also

its type d

theres a type d giga concept i think

where the dinos look undead

[slim dragon]

as far as I know the only official strains are hyerendocrin, neurotenic, tissoplastic and magna, but tissoplastic is being redone and we didn't have any info on magna and neuro recently

[fresh laurel]

interesting..

[dusky surge]

i see spino as the brawler, rex as an ambush and giga as this weird, not endurance but kind of endurance hunter. Not like legacy endurance, since in EVRIMA, you actually would have more than one way to get away

legacy giga put a bad name on endurance giga

even tho it could def work

[fresh laurel]

i was saying a realistic spino btw

also mind saying the difference

[slim dragon]

Realistic spino wouldn't fight

[fresh laurel]

in getting away in more than one way

[fresh laurel]

it would def fight if it had too

prob get bodied but

[grave veldt]

realistic spino would be bodied in the isle

[fresh laurel]

and thats why we got jp spino

heh

[grave veldt]

yup

[fresh laurel]

im waiting for giga to come on the isle evrima tbh

even if it takes a year

again...

wonder how alberto gonna be a balanced mid tier

[spring dagger]

playing deino in 2022

[granite gate]

😔

[dusky surge]

@granite gate put any corpse near a herbi nest

now you have herbis with less stam, food and water

and no way to deal with it

[granite gate]

let herbis eat the corpse if its near a nest 🙏 call that parenting rage

jk but yeah that is a good point, i keep forgetting people can move corpses now

could always allow herbis to move corpses

[slim dragon]

Corpse guarding is only a problem because grabbing chunks of meat is so finicky

If a carnivore could easily run in, grab a piece of meat while stopping for less than 5 seconds and run away, then there wouldn't be any problem

[granite gate]

tru but i think that depends on the carni and the herbi who's guarding

rn the carnis we have in-game are all fairly mobile (other than the crocs) tbf but whenever we get slower ones, running in might not be a viable fix

honestly tho i don't particularly care about corpseguarding myself, it just seems realistic since most animals dont wanna stick around rotting bodies bc of disease and bacteria. would be nice for scavengers at least

[slim dragon]

Most animals don't want to stand near bodies because they stink
But intelligent animals like elephants prefer staying near bodies of their fallen brethren to prevent the predators from eating them

[fervent tusk]

@slim dragon You have a better idea? It seems you agree that it's a problem, but every time a suggestion is made everyone shoots it down. Not sure how anything is supposed to get better if everyone is opposed to change.

[slim dragon]

No, I don't agree with the suggestion of dead bodies giving debuffs to herbivores. I'm not even sure it's something that needs to be fixed.

[hollow canyon]

Dinosaurs aren't elephants for starters, to our current knowledge they wouldn't care one bit about some carnivore eating one of them

And while I agree that grabbing chunks of meat should be much faster and easier I don't think it would solve the issue at all

Bodyguarding by herbivores is just a whole different problem

[slim dragon]

As a carnivore, I never experienced the problem of having herbivores camp a body. I know it's not always doable, but you better find isolated targets or be prepared to fight the entire herd when you select your prey. Ideally this should be possible to do (with adjusted hunger times and better AI spawns)

[slim dragon]

Well you can't know anything about this
Also dinosaurs in-game are most probably controlled by humans lore-wise

[hollow canyon]

I agree that bodyguarding isn't that big of a problem in itself

it's more of a symptom imo

the herbivores are simply free to go on fighting the carnivores however they wish because they are just much stronger than them

[slim dragon]

If I was to suggest a fix for bodyguarding herbis, it would be to double or triple carnivore hunger times (with associated buffs or nerfs) so that a carni can just wait for the herbi to starve if one wants to bodyguard.

[hollow canyon]

I'd argue that hunger times should be extended for all the adult animals in general

[slim dragon]

Well we don't have a single strong carni yet
Utah is tiny
Carno is a small game hunter
Deino is water-locked
Ptera shouldn't even be considered a carnivore

Hopefully this could change when cera appears

[hollow canyon]

I disagree - Carno might be a small game hunter but pretty much all the animals in the game are small game except Deino and Stego

meanwhile Tenonto and Pachy both do way too well against Carno and Utah

[slim dragon]

Teno hardly is, and pachy is designed to counter carno

And yes, currently carnis get hard-countered by their herbivore counterparts

Note that we have much less carnivore variety than herbivore variety

[hollow canyon]

Pachy isn't designed to hunter Carno how in the world do you reach that conclusion? It's literally the animal that is the exact definition of what Carno should be hunting

they aren't hard-countered

the herbivores are just overtuned like hell on the current patch

all three of them

[fervent tusk]

^Agreed

[slim dragon]

Pachy's initial gimmick was being able to break a faster predator's leg in order to be able to run away

[hollow canyon]

That's... not what Pachys do at all

[slim dragon]

And all carnos has for itself is speed

[hollow canyon]

Pachys are capable of cancelling out attacks of all the animals

[fervent tusk]

Yeah that may be the idea but that's not how it actually works

[slim dragon]

Because they are overtuned, but that's what they are supposed to do

[hollow canyon]

Pachy is probably the most overtuned animal atm

the goddamn thing can cancel out Stego and Deino attacks for some reason

the idea that this little thing should be stunning and CC-locking animals larger than itself is completely absurd

Tenonto on the other hand simply has a bloated damage output on the tail

[granite gate]

stunlocks and cc in general is horrible for fun combat

[hollow canyon]

to the point where it can 100 to 0 most animals if it lands a single attack

[fervent tusk]

Regardless, the body camping is simply something players will choose to do because they're bored, or assholes, or whatever. You can't simply nerf herbivores to try to prevent it, because a carni still has to fight over a body at that point. There's no current mechanism to adjust or tweak to disallow body camping

[granite gate]

how does removing counterplay make combat more fun? the answer is that it doesn’t. it doesn’t even make it more challenging

[hollow canyon]

Well for starters we could try to get the herbivores to have to move

if they are allowed to just play a birdbath simulator then they can absolutely sit on top of a body however long they wish

[slim dragon]

Actually, if herbivores are nerfed, they won't be able to bodycamp so easily since the smell of fresh meat will attract carnivores, and eventually something stroneger and bigger than a carno

[hollow canyon]

meanwhile a carnivore can't afford to do that because it has to move around to get killed

[fervent tusk]

I don't see how body camping is counterplay

[granite gate]

a sickness debuff for herbis and non-scavenger carnis does make sense though…

bc dead bodies generate disease

[fervent tusk]

Okay but then the carni that landed the kill has to share or contest the body with other carnis

[slim dragon]

That'd be annoying

[fervent tusk]

same damn problem

Doesn't make sense in what regard?

The counters don't make sense to me.. If herbis are nerfed they can still camp and not allow a carni to eat. If other carnis show up chasing the dead body scent, now the original carni has another issue to deal with.

The only way to address the issue fairly is to introduce something that makes camping herbivores move.

[hollow canyon]

@glass berry I don't think you read the latest suggestion very closely - it was specifically mentioned that herbivores would be immune to that debuff while around their nesting areas. As for the bodies being around their food - the debuff that Steve spoke about would kick in only after some 10 minutes of sitting on top of a body.

[fervent tusk]

^^^ Exactly

[slim dragon]

Allowing herbis to camp would not be that bad if balance wasn't so off

[granite gate]

and if it wasnt so easy to fucking starve

[hollow canyon]

Also - no sane person heals up next to a bunch of dead bodies, you're literally asking to get killed by someone if you do that.

[fervent tusk]

Ideally you'll have time to grab food if it's near a dead body and go. But lingering longer will be punished.

[granite gate]

i swear to god the devs just think grinding = challenging

[fervent tusk]

Bro

[hollow canyon]

^

[fervent tusk]

Allowing toxicity wouldnt be so bad if the dino the toxic player is on wasn't strong

What??

[granite gate]

“we’re gonna create this huge beautiful map but fuck you and starve if you want to see more than 2 sq meters outside of the hotspots”

[hollow canyon]

I mean... that's not entirely wrong, I've encountered body-guarding since Evrima released but it wasn't that bad when carnivores could put up more of a fight against herbivores.

It was still a thing but it was more manageable.

[granite gate]

they’re mistaking food-gathering for content rn… like no, having to sprint from food source to food source doesnt make the game more interesting :/

[fervent tusk]

I'm not disagreeing that herbos are overtuned, but it wouldn't matter if they weren't. A weak ass pachy can still land cheeky headbutts to a carni that's trying to eat.

[spare badger]

Pachy alt shouldnt stun imo

[slim dragon]

We're also talking about a survival game where everything is trying to kill you
Denying food to your enemy increases your chances of survival by making them die of starvation, it's not always out of sheer toxicity

[glass berry]

I still think that even with immunity around nests, players would be complaining heavily about herbivores body guarding though, which would negate the system in the first place. It would need to be all or nothing in order to work properly, because herbivores who do want to body guard could if the nesting system still allows nesting outside of particular areas, simply put down a nest to avoid it.

[hollow canyon]

I would say that it would matter, they wouldn't be quite as oppressive while bodyguarding as they are now, it would still be a problem but... less of a problem?

[placid reef]

its just PoT quests with extra steps

[granite gate]

exactly 😩

[hollow canyon]

This is assuming that putting down a nest will work the way it does in the legacy - to our current knowldge it will take significantly more effort and you won't be able to do it with a press of a single button.

[granite gate]

i assume banging will reduce food ^

bc yknow… creation of life

[glass berry]

Even so, what's to stop it from happening if say, you're up against a herd that can defend the one putting the nest down?

[spare badger]

Apparently you will have to gather materials to make a nest

[fervent tusk]

The nest point isn't fleshed out because we don't know how nests are going to work. There's talk of significant build time, material requirements, cooldowns, specific areas etc. Ideally you won't just be able to plop a nest down wherever you want, because that doesn't actually make sense, either.

[placid reef]

https://tenor.com/view/life-uh-finds-a-way-it-be-that-way-it-will-work-itself-out-gif-16077053

[granite gate]

yeh

[spare badger]

They so said that there are benefits to building in nesting grounds over in the forest somewhere

[glass berry]

Either way, perhaps solely around heavy gore that most carnivores aside from scavengers can make use of, I dont see a mechanic like that working well or as intended, without being heavily abusable.

[hollow canyon]

I mean they'd probably have to sit on top of that body for quite some time and build that nest spending resources and time doing that. It would be possible but it would be quite a big hassle when compared to just being able to stand on top of that body indefinitely no matter what.

Would it be doable? Sure

But it would still make it much harder to bodyguard for a long time.

[fervent tusk]

The point is that you can't win on a carni. You take the time, play the game well, and are still punished because of a toxic move that has no repercussion.

And chiri, bodies despawn long before herbos need food or water. It's much more likely that the carni gives up and looks for something else to kill before the herbo fucks off to eat or drink.

[spare badger]

That should all be solved with gore

And cerato

Or AI rex

Or some other scavenger

[fervent tusk]

How

Start with gore, please.

[placid reef]

would expect rotten food to have some effect towards players honestly, except cera

[spare badger]

Because bodies would last a long time and be made up of many parts
All with likely different rot times

[fervent tusk]

Ok how do bodies being made of different parts or lasting longer solve the issue?

[spare badger]

And to encourage scavenger gameplay of course they won't respawn as quick

So that the bodies don't despawn by the time herbis need food

[fervent tusk]

Odds are the carnivore is hungry after a fight, are we to bank that the herbo is just as hungry or more, and that they'll leave first?

So the carni is just supposed to starve waiting for the body to turn to gore?

[glass berry]

Think about other ways it could be abused though that would make the system not work-
Herbivore successfully defends itself and kills whatever is trying to kill it. It needs to stop and heal, and sits nearby the body just for a while. It now has debuffs that decrease its chances of survival, which is not fair to the herbivore, punishing it for surviving. 'Just move' isn't a good option either, as with heavy bleed and so few mud pits, it might not have a choice in moving without dying.

How long would it take for these debuffs to actually go in? If it happens very quickly no matter what a body's size is, what's to stop carnivores from taking tiny bodies (juvies or ai) and dropping them at an herbivore to get the debuff on them, even if they're not trying to be around a body. Some bodies are so small they might not even see them, especially if its during a fight. I absolutely foresee carnivores would use it to their advantage for more kills.

If the debuffs are small enough, some herbivores might not even notice it even if it stacks, continuing to guard long after theyve gotten the debuff. Too large a debuff, it could make it that if you hang around trying to defend yourself and not die, you still get slammed w the debuff and die anyways.

[placid reef]

why wouldnt rotten food just make your thirst and/or hunger drain faster?

[spare badger]

That is true
Of course when this game becomes a survival game and has a gameplay loop and dying is impactful staying near a corpse will be a shit idea

Especially when the roster is expanded

[hollow canyon]

You do not sit by bodies to heal up, that's something honestly worthy of a Darwin award in this game.

[placid reef]

i'd expect a body to start to rot after like 10-15 min

[glass berry]

Most herbivores wont stay until theyre at risk of starving or dehydrating to death, theyll leave long before this. Even in the worst cases of body guarding ive been up against, it's still relatively easy to get your food as a carnivore. Most of the cases where I've seen in game people are complaining about herbivores body guarding, the carnivores are still attacking the herbivores, forcing them to defend.
Most cases, leaving them alone and backing off slightly, they go away before it despawns and let carnivores eat, unless still being attacked.

[glass berry]

And yet, players still do it.

[hollow canyon]

Considering that with the proposed mechanic it would take some 10-15 minutes for oyu to puke

Well they deserve to get hit with the consequences then

[placid reef]

wdym? after the food starts to rot, after 15 more min you start puking?

[hollow canyon]

Honestly this mechanic might outright help them by getting them to move away from a body so that they don't get eaten by other carnivores that get drawn to the dead corpse right next to them.

[fervent tusk]

I addressed the moving bodies part in my suggestion, nice to know you thoroughly read it before slapping that X reply and arguing.. Simply add a UI element to allow herbos to see if they're taking the debuff and where the body causing it is.
Stopping to heal near dead things is ridiculous. Again, dead bodies attract dead bodies.
The debuff is that after a long enough time spent near a dead body, you throw up. Hard to not notice that. Again, thanks for actually reading my post.

[hollow canyon]

iirc the way it was supposed to work - a body takes 5 minutes from the moment the animal fell to start applying the debuff which you then have to be around for 10 minutes for it to stack up to get you to throw up

[spare badger]

I have honestly never seen bodygaurding
When do you see it?

[placid reef]

wait, theres smth already in the game or is this just an idea for gore?

[fervent tusk]

Except that they don't. I've experienced it, my friends experience it, other people posting about the issue experience it. Herbos are boring, and because of that they look for ways to bug and annoy carnis. The easiest way to do that is body camping. I've watched multiple herbos sit on a body until it despawns before moving off. They don't care, they have nothing better to do.

[hollow canyon]

that's more than enough time to heal up a little bit but in all the honesty there's a pretty decent chance that the dumb herbivore that decides to heal up while sitting on top of a dead body outright gets eaten by another carnivore that gets lured into the area by the carcass.

[hollow canyon]

proposed mechanic to get the herbivores to get the hell out from the areas where carcasses are to stop bodyguarding

It's what Steve proposed as solution to this problem

[fervent tusk]

It happens all the freaking time lol I'd really love to know what server you're on and when you're playing that you don't see it.

[glass berry]

You're not the only person to suggest it, and either way, I still find it to be a bad idea. Chill. It's an extremely exploitable thing even in the form you suggested it, as are the vast majority of the other suggestions. I also don't think mechanics are a good way to enforce unspoken rules due to how they can be exploited, bugged, and pose issues for other servers, such as community ones that may have different rules.

[placid reef]

ahh, ngl that idea isnt that bad, and could go hand in hand with gore

[spare badger]

I play on official servers and have never once seen it in any evrima update

[fervent tusk]

How is it exploitable?

I legit want to know. Because everyone who's opposed to things like this seem to have a very strong opinion, but no counters or other solutions.

[hollow canyon]

Literally like all the time? Whenever I play a herbivore and I kill a carnivore I will specifically camp that body so that other carnivores can't eat it. If I see another herbivore get killed by a carnivore I'm going to get out of my way to kill that carnivore.

Admittedly I do get bored pretty easily

So I never do that for too long

[fervent tusk]

I've played on every official server and I've seen it everywhere from the mess at Oasis to random parts of the map throughout.

[glass berry]

Carnivores being the only ones to be able move bodies you could easily force the debuffs on herbivores by dropping bodies near them. You could get a small body that triggers the debuff, have someone run through a herd defending itself, drop it, and harass and attack them until the debuff ticks.

[fervent tusk]

Again

[spare badger]

I've never seen it personally idk man
Usually if I kill a carnivore I kill it's pack then I go hunt for more carnivores at oasis

[fervent tusk]

The debuff is on a timer.

[glass berry]

Yes, the entire point of me saying 'harass them until the debuff ticks'

[fervent tusk]

It would take a certain amount of time after the body hits the ground to trigger, then a certain amount of time from that before it actually does anything.

[hollow canyon]

For 10 minutes? With them not moving one bit that whole time?

[glass berry]

Entirely possible, especially with how fights on NA1 go down at oasis. There have been many fights that have lasted up to 30 minutes just because its the one mud pit and people trying to heal bleed.

[fervent tusk]

You can also adjust the radius of the effect. Obviously too big poses a problem because it'll block off whole sections of the map, too small and it won't have an effect.

[hollow canyon]

I mean I'd question why people are even allowed to sit for 30 minutes+ in a single spot in the first place.

[fervent tusk]

You know they're changing the map and food node spawns, right? This current map isn't final. Oasis is a shithole for multiple reasons, most of which have fixes coming down the pipe

[hollow canyon]

I do get that the current game/map-design allows for this birdbath gameplay but that's not what the game is supposed to be.

[fervent tusk]

^^^^

[spare badger]

I want no hotspots tbh
Having dinos.spread out throughout the map would be much cooler experience

And diets gave the devs a way to do that
And they didn't

[glass berry]

Carnivores again, also do the same thing people are complaining about, there are many cases of carnivores who aren't hungry using bodies as bait just to get in more kills, and not having a similar mechanic to carnivores who arent hungry/have their diet filled would be an outrage.

I just dont see the body guarding as that much of an issue even as a carnivore main, because there are many ways around it and even body guarding gets boring too. There are always gonna be stupid and toxic players who go against what the game actually wants them to do, but there shouldn't be a mechanic just to negate something that isn't really that big of a deal. If you're starving to death and need to eat, you can always move on and find something else, because very rarely do I see it where herbivores are so toxic and aggressive they force it so no carnivore can eat at all everywhere in the map

Hotspots are always going to be a thing, regardless of how the map is set up. If oasis is removed or changed, people will simply move on to the next hotspot or make their own

[placid reef]

thats what it should be...

[hollow canyon]

Carnivores do not leave their bodies though... why would they do that? If you get a body of an animal that is a part of your diet why would you leave it if it's what you have to be eating?

[glass berry]

Not at all what I said?

[hollow canyon]

I don't think they even should be leaving the bodies, carnivores should be competing for them trying to either steal the food from other carnivores

or bully them off those kills

[spare badger]

Yea
Imagine the diet foods being equally spread out in their respective biomes? It would be so much better to play in and interact with other animals

[hollow canyon]

You're speaking about carnivores using bodies to get more bodies

or sitting on top of them while not being hungry

[fervent tusk]

Again, I wanna know where you're playing. I've been chased by a group of tenos clear across the map, I've had bodies camped by pachys and stegos until they despawn.

[hollow canyon]

I do not see absolutely anything wrong with that

They get more food that way and why would any carnivore leave its kill?

[spare badger]

How have you had tenos chase you? Tenos running stam is bad
Not as bad as it used to but still bad

[glass berry]

Yes, as frequently happens. I never said anything about carnivores leaving bodies, but that carnivores often body guard in the same way when they dont need the food. Should there be a mechanic against doing that for them too?

[fervent tusk]

Exactly. This is a survival game, not a battle royale. Moving off of a kill to simply find something else to kill shouldn't be encouraged. You should absolutely be pushed to use every resource up.

[hollow canyon]

If you are a Carno and kill another Carno then leave its body to lure more carnos and kill them then that's good for you.

[hollow canyon]

No? Because that's perfectly fine

They might not need that body at the time but they might need it in future

[glass berry]

All NA servers, and NA1 is where I've seen the absolute worst body guarding, but its still something you can get around

[hollow canyon]

It's food

Why would you leave it?

[spare badger]

Exactly
But the only way to make players play careful is to have an incentive to survive (elders and perks)

[fervent tusk]

They press W key and aim their mouse at me. Idk how to answer that question, dude, people are assholes.

[hollow canyon]

I find the idea that a carnivore should leave a body of something it killed absolutely preposterous and dumb

[fervent tusk]

You're talking about adding in even more nonsense that might dry fix the problem instead of addressing it head on.

[spare badger]

The problem is people treat it as a battle Royale cause there's no incentive to live a long life

That's the point of elders is it not?

[placid reef]

kinda..

[glass berry]

That's my point aken- people who want to body guard would just simply go carnivore to do it if they couldnt as herbivores. It was happening on NA2 just last night with a carno group massacereing everyone near center spawn, and not eating the bodies. Herbivore or carnivore, body guarding will happen, it'd just shift from herbivores doing it to carnivores

[fervent tusk]

You're skirting the original issue. Body camping is easy to do, and has no repercussion.

Elders won't fix that.

[hollow canyon]

Why would you NOT body-guard as a carnivore? You should absolutely do that and be encouraged to do that.

Other carnivores should be encouraged to bully you off that body/steal it from you

[fervent tusk]

Yuuuuup

[hollow canyon]

I generally don't understand how that is an issue

[fervent tusk]

The problem is that herbos, who have ABSOLUTELY NO INCENTIVE to do so are able to, and do it well.

[spare badger]

Yea I guess it has no repercussions since the strongest carnivore is carno...

[hollow canyon]

Herbivores literally have 0 business sitting on top of carnivore's food, other than trying to raise their KDA

[placid reef]

if the food is on your diet, def, idk how it would be you body camp whats not on your diet but ehh, anyways