balance-feedback-discussion

[grave veldt]

all these stego nerf feedbacks lol

[sinful cove]

“Fake charges” comment makes me think this dude wants stego nerfed so he can hunt it easier as carno? Lmao

Carno is cancer enough rn

Bastards are on every corner of the map i cant get away from the spamcalling

[grave veldt]

imagine wanting a small game niche hunter

to kill an apex herbivore becuz hehe

[sinful cove]

Stego isnt even on carno diet anymore is it

[grave veldt]

nope

which i think isnt a bad change but

[hollow canyon]

I mean it shouldn't be and Carno has no business hunting it

Carno doesn't really have any business hunting things larger than itself fullstop

It should be good vs animals up to Tenonto's size, anything bigger than Carno itself should be turning it into a beef stroganoff

[craggy trench]

I mean then what could even hunt stegos?? we arent provided with many choices eh ?

deinos apparently cant

utahs are out of question

then hf playing an untouchable walking concrete wall

must be fun playing a survival game like a vr chat game

[tall bronze]

Focus Kentro, replace Stego with it until later on

[golden coral]

As soon as utah pounce is properly fixed, that'll change

[tall bronze]

👈

[craggy trench]

Even with proper utah pounce, it takes at least 5 utahs with very well group organization

rando utahs generally behave like dog packs, if you can bite without damaging your m8, you will bite. This is all the organization there is.

[sinful cove]

Yeah utah is a pack hunter for large game and naking a pack is barely any difficulty even now

[golden coral]

And it should very well take at least 5-6 utahs since they have a pack limit of what, 8, or even 10 these days. Should take a full or near full pack to attempt large game.

[tall bronze]

It's good that it takes coordinated Utahs.

[craggy trench]

yeah it is good, im just saying that it is very, very hard. Is it good it being that hard ?

well maybe yes

[golden coral]

Yes well, that's random groups in general. And the solution is to think before act a bit more, which goes for all playables really :p

The biggest issues for utah is part lack of functioning mechanics and part lacking good prey in the roster

[craggy trench]

that leads to every group member staying passively, observing the game xd

[tall bronze]

That's also pretty good. Strategizing and trying to find an opening for attack is much better than just running up and spamming pounce

[craggy trench]

this game just doesnt seem very intact and smooth rn to apply sophisticated tactics in it. You generally run up with thinking a little on where to pounce. Even a little desync can end it all which is very common on eu servers

This is all theoretically valid but a single swing can end you and with that AoE, effort required to kill it and your risk of dying doesnt add up properly

[hollow canyon]

Which is why Stego's at 75% growth and more should probably give Utah more than one nutrient, at least imo

prey that is dangerous for some specific animal should be more rewarding than something that can be killed easily

[craggy trench]

very true

[hollow canyon]

Then again this is assuming we keep those awful diets and they don't undergo a general change, which they probably won't

[craggy trench]

Stegos which have more than 75% growth filling all hexes for all carnis wont be an exaggerated feature imo

and when carnis sniff, the symbol for dead 75+% stego would be gold outlined meat or sth

[wise sparrow]

A prime meat thing for large animals would be cool. Also I think people forget that utah can (with fixes to its pounce and removal of all the exploits to negate utah's pounce) hunt stego reasonably well. I feel like utah packs that can take out a steg should be rewarded with more than one hex

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it should be so much for the large animals but perhaps for the animals that are really hard to kill for something. Stego is a very special case because it's hard to kill for literally everything(same goes for Deino really). However I don't think that some more powerful hunters that would presumably have a better time with Stego should get a free ride just because they can kill Stego relatively(more) easily.

[wise sparrow]

I mean I ment like if a utah pack killed a stego they'd get more than 1 hex but if a rex killed a stego it would only get one

[hollow canyon]

Fair enough, that's what I had in mind too

[wise sparrow]

I dont think stego needs nerfs as much as utahs need fixes. Even with a working pounce apparently all utahs are hydrophobic and stegos will just wedge themselves in trees. If these exploits along with utahs pounce were fixed stegos would have something to fear

I'd have to see a fight with stegos where pounce consistently works to know what on steg needs nerfs

[grave veldt]

its hard to judge the balance of an apex tier dino with no other actual apexes

[placid reef]

you mean like diets should have a few dinos that are classified as dangerous/ difficult but give more reward?

[alpine plover]

Issue is they can never hunt without almost always losing swaths of their pack

The "pack hunters" do not pack hunt

Make them spawn 100% as Hypsi even, the corpses of Utahs everywhere would not change

[placid reef]

well this is the case partly bc of the bugs and partly bc of the dozen or so counters to its main attack

[sinful cove]

That is true at the moment considering pounce likes to randomly bounce you off like your raptor is a rubber ball. When it involves skill and not winning a pounce lottery then skilled packs and packs of morons who wipe themselves on any large animal they look at will set themselves aprt

[alpine plover]

Should be

But "skilled players" are no longer a thing since combat is so diluted

Every utah is dependant on one ability with so many counters , everyone has to play the same way

[hollow canyon]

@cosmic veldt The growth buffs from diets do work for Deinos - that's the sad thing, you were growing with a growth buff for that long.

[wise sparrow]

The pond just sucks. If it was removed prey might go to the rivers where they can avoid stegos

[cosmic veldt]

That's pathetic quite frankly. It makes playing Deinos a dying simulator because they relatively speaking have a complete lack of options and mobility to be able to sustain themselves on anything other than fish

[hollow canyon]

To make myself more clear - the way growth buffs work is that they double your growth rate

[wise sparrow]

Imo stegos dont need nerfs as much as utahs and the exploits that cancel its pounce need to be fixed.

[hollow canyon]

however the devs have doubled the growths of everyting in update 4

so your normal growth would be 10 hours for Deinosuchus, it's only half that with a perfect diet

[wise sparrow]

Although idk exactly cause I haven't seen a single fight where pounce worked consistently

[cosmic veldt]

See I must have missed something cause in non-QA it took about 6 hours or so to grow a Deino to max size. Did they make it longer to compensate for the diets in QA/how long does it take on the current version?

[hollow canyon]

It's 5 hours in non QA, I can assure you of that, it's always been 300 minutes since its release

on QA it's longer than that in reality

[cosmic veldt]

So essentially even in update 4 it will still take 5 hours even if you manage a perfect diet (something that is currently damn near impossible at larger sizes)?

[hollow canyon]

It will de facto take more than that

For a simple reason - you will never have a perfect diet right from the start

It's exactly 5 hours assuming you start with 3 nutrients

which you never do

unles you're super lucky but even then you will have added a couple of minutes before the diet buff maxes out

So in reality you will always grow longer than on the livebranch

Overall diets effectively increase the growth time of every animal

because this game hasn't been enough of a waiting simulator prior to this

[cosmic veldt]

Right that's fine and all. Maybe for some reason I'm just having a hard time wrapping my brain around this math (in which case sorry your putting up with my dumbass this morning XD) but if the growth times are being doubled in update 4 does that mean that the Deino will only take around 2.5 hours then on max diet efficacy or is the 5 hours what it will still be even after update 4?

[hollow canyon]

No, "growth times are doubled" means that instead of growing for 5 hours as your base growth you have to grow a Deinosuchus for 10 hours to reach full adult

This is assuming you have one nutrient

[cosmic veldt]

WAIT WHAT?

[hollow canyon]

If you have two - 7hours 40 minutes

If you have three - 5 hours as it is on the livebranch

[cosmic veldt]

Oh f**k that

[hollow canyon]

if you have zero - 20 hours

[cosmic veldt]

That's simply awful

I don't have that kind of time to play this game. Unless update 4 is adding in A LOT of other options to keep players occupied for the duration of that time I'm out

[hollow canyon]

Well technically you get to grow to 50% with a perfect diet as long as you eat anything

carnivores up to 50% don't really have a diet

they get all the nutrients from whatever it is that they eat

that's because well... the diets weren't designed with carnivores in mind and clearly just got slapped on those playables without much thought

past 50% is where the problems start

and yes - no sane person will want to spend this kind of time on this game

then again sanity is a thing that's been lacking in the recent times

[cosmic veldt]

Yeah there's altogether too little map, too few options, and not enough variety and entertainment value in the game play to make such a grind remotely worth it

[hollow canyon]

That's true

the actual value that I'm getting out of the gameplay when compared to the time spent on the game just plummeted with the release of the diets

I have hundreds of hours in Evrima and I have honestly kind of quit it because of this

[cosmic veldt]

I don't mind the idea behind the diets in concept but they are just horrifically imbalanced relative to the current spread of creatures and there simply is not enough AI or hell even other players on QA enough to sustain the system

[hollow canyon]

I do take an issue with the concept. Not that diets in general are bad but the way they've been implemented with those three different nutrients is just... mind-numbing.

The idea that each carnivore should run around and kill different animals one by one to stay in its top shape

is just so dumb

Hunting shouldn't be like a shopping spree in Walmart

[cosmic veldt]

Yeah. If you ask me now that I'm taking a step back and looking at the whole picture the bonuses for maintaining a good diet relative to the effort it currently takes to hold them should be MASSIVELY adjusted. For one thing Attack damage, scent range, and night vision just simply shouldn't be impacted by it at all

[hollow canyon]

I absolutely agree

the fact that scent and damage are affected makes it so counterproductive in reaching a good diet

since you're already weakened by default the moment you start

[cosmic veldt]

And the growth bonuses for maintaining them should be doubled or even tripled. Like 100% growth rate increase per full nutrient that decreases WITH their absence

So you're growing at triple speed IF you're able to get all 3

[hollow canyon]

triple speed might be too fast, that would allow the largest animals to grow a bit too quickly

[cosmic veldt]

Maybe but you get my point

[hollow canyon]

But I'd just tone it down to the point where perfect diet allows you to grow in 4 hours, great one 5 hours, good one 6 hours and bad one 8 hours

and that's it

there's a decent progression

rather than making it so that having 2 nutrients makes you grow in 7hours 40 minutes

that's just... baffling

[cosmic veldt]

Yeah. I don't mind different sized dinosaurs having different base growth rates relative to their overall threat level when fully grown but NONE should be taking 8+ hours base to grow unless we're talking about adding dinosaurs like a damn Giganotosaurus that can basically OHKO anything

(Obviously I'm being very hyperbolic here but you get what I'm saying)

[hollow canyon]

I get what you mean, the thing is that the growth times for each animal now vary depending on how many nutrients they have

When I speak about their "base growth" I'm talking about the growth rate they have when the character menu doesn't show any bonuses nor debuffs.

This is when they have 1 nutrient

the question is how exactly should those growth timers be balanced out between all the different diets - e.g. how long it should take to grow something that has all the nutrients, no nutrients and so on

[cosmic veldt]

Yeah they either need to make maintaining diets MUCH easier for BOTH herbivores and carnivores to justify the rewards and penalties for not maintaining them or leave it like this and both MASSIVELY increase the benefits and decrease the negative impacts from not maintaining them

At the moment starting off with automatically reduced stats as a baby is inane. At the very least all dinosaurs should be immune to diet related nerfs until AT LEAST 25% size so they have an opportunity to get somewhere and find the right food

[hollow canyon]

That's a decent suggestion, you might want to drop that in the mechanic test feedback channel I think

[cosmic veldt]

Did so. Let me know what you think

[hollow canyon]

I doubt the devs will introduce the last part

as in - I'm pretty sure they won't

I agree that the negatives shouldn't be a thing when you're fully grown but I'm pretty sure the devs want those to be a thing

[cosmic veldt]

Well there needs to be some kind of significant incentive for making it to maximum size if the grind is going to be so long

If no negative buffs perhaps maybe a special ability or extra attack unique to each dinosaur

[barren oracle]

Just make the 1 nutrient grow time the previous ones and have it lower from there

[hollow canyon]

Don't get me wrong it's not that I necassarily disagree, I'm just pretty sure the devs won't make it so that there are no debuffs when you're fully grown because that would allow people to ignore their diets.

Diets are - from what I understand - supposed to create a specific gameplay for each animal

they are limiting by nature but that's what they're supposed to do

they are meant to ensure that each dinosaur remains in its own biome eating things it's supposed to eat

[barren oracle]

Supposed to stop mr.Allo from meeting mr.Magy

[hollow canyon]

Exactly ^

I think there were far better ways of achieving that

[barren oracle]

I cant think of any off the top of my head

[hollow canyon]

but it might be too late for any suggestions with regard to that because the devs kept quiet about it for too long and gave us diets only when they were more or less already in the game

[barren oracle]

Gore would of been responsible to come with diets, then it would be a bit better

[hollow canyon]

I've described what should've been done in terms of diets a couple of times

not that it matters because it's just too late

to make such large changes as what I was proposing

[barren oracle]

I dunno what you were proposing gimme insights

[cosmic veldt]

Simply put, I understand that every dinosaur shouldn't be able to kill every other cause that's just unrealistic BUT there should be additional methods to give creatures a fighting chance to either do some harm or flee even if they're more or less outmatched in a fight

[hollow canyon]

Does it matter what I was proposing? It's not doable anymore either way because it's way too contradictory to the current system

#885026544689492018 message

That's what I was proposing

but it's completely irrelevant

it's too late to introduce such large changes to this system

It might at best be a mod if I ever decide to get this game modded

[barren oracle]

seems complicated and boring

[cosmic veldt]

Another thing that I think should be implemented in some form is a mechanic to discourage mix/megapacking

[barren oracle]

Overcomplicated mechanics suk

[cosmic veldt]

And so do poorly planned and executed ones like what we're currently dealing with lol

[hollow canyon]

If you're calling what I described there as complicated then I guess we aren't really on the same waves

What i described there is so simple that a lobotomised monkey could grasp that with ease

[barren oracle]

Eh its not great in terms of grow times but i dont mind it, the carnivore one sux though

[cosmic veldt]

Ultimately this is what I think the devs need to focus on:

High Priority:

More map
Diet systems
Ai/Food Placements
Server stability

Low priority:

-basically anything else

[barren oracle]

Map needs less deino and more other things

[cosmic veldt]

Deinos are already being played less than basically every other creature because of how badly the current system supports them

[barren oracle]

Gimme bamby swamp but deeper

[wise sparrow]

Honestly if deino was never added the map could look so much better. They had to change the entire thing cause dumb river worm

[versed rune]

Absolutely wacky to me that 9 people are okay with stego being able merc a giant crocodile that should be for all intensive purposes be killing it in 4-5 headshots, just because muh herbivore

[dark onyx]

It's an apex

Deinos arent supposed to hunt stegs

(Stegos aren't supposed to hunt Deinos as well tbf)

[golden coral]

Deino is designed to hunt "smaller" prey, and not tangle with large targets. How is this confusing to you. Also, do you imagine a rex or trike or anky or giga being any more fun for a deino to encounter? I get the feeling people keep forgetting that stego won't be the only large critter around, so whatever you want to apply to it, should be applied to all the others too.

[dark onyx]

^

[frail flicker]

The issue is we don't have an answer to Steg at the moment, but we will in the future, so for now when you see a Steg, just submerge, kill em with boredom lol

[alpine plover]

i agree stego should have the advantage, however stego taking on multiple deinos at once seems a bit iffy to me. not sure if it was due to the diet situation with deino and such, you know decreasing its bite value, but I've witnessed a stego taking on about 3 deinos at once? killed 2 and the other ran away with like 10% hp. It's insane how strong stego is atm

stego is easily overwhelmed by utahs, a solid pack of 4 or 5 can take one on, however utahs pounce is really weird atm so stego is in a spot where it has no enemies except other stegos, if that certain stego even wants to kill the other stego which is unlikely

I think the main problem with stego is nothing can really compete with it, outside of utah (if the pounce works) or other stegos, carno is out of the picture because the worsened turn and overall damage nerf. Seeing terrestrial competition for stego would be nice

[dark onyx]

agreed, Stego really needs some competition

[golden coral]

I had an idea for a rework of stego attacks and stats that might help with deinos being "safer" against one, even if they still would struggle to kill the stego. Same would go for the rest, in a sense less chance to win, but greater chance to survive the fight vs a stego.

[versed rune]

define smaller prey because deino weighs 2 whole tons more than a stego

[golden coral]

Half their weight. As the current grab mechanic allows for. Since that's how the devs decided to implement it.

So basically, midtier range of prey

[alpine plover]

not sure if people would agree but i would honestly make deino a full on apex like rex or spino in the future

[golden coral]

Which is an issue since we lack in roster :p

[versed rune]

i mean thats one thing i dont understand, why deino didnt come with a tug type thing rather than just a grab

[golden coral]

Give it proper mechanics, and sure. The issue is the current design of the grab and drown. Having it do that to a rex or trike is just meh.

[versed rune]

like the ability to grab a steg and attempt to pull it in

[golden coral]

If there was a tug of war, then deinos could hunt stegos since there'd be some way to fight back or challenge, just like in a fight vs a rex or anything else

[versed rune]

but what about simply biting a stego's head? that should still kill relatively quick

[alpine plover]

oh yeah if definitely shouldn't be grabbing rex or spino, but it could possibly latch, like a sort of stamina battle between the 2

[golden coral]

But since we don't have that, I'm going with the idea that deino is more so designed to hunt "mid" tiers, things that go up to 4T, maybe a bit more if it's something less weaponized, but yeah

[alpine plover]

i would just make deino an absolute pain in the ass to grow, but becomes a literal monster once full adult

[versed rune]

id like to agree with that but growing is already boring af

[alpine plover]

if you compare isle deino with irl deino, isle deino is like a sub adult

[versed rune]

its basically a wait timer until you're allowed to have fun

[versed rune]

that too

[alpine plover]

you can literally afk grow anyways so the diet system is flawed

[versed rune]

carnivores shouldnt even have diets

[golden coral]

It does, 6 hits is rather fast? But that would again go for a rex as well. Ceratopsids and anky are armored, but aside from them, most things have as vunerable head as everyone else.

[versed rune]

literally just perferred foods thats it

[alpine plover]

carnivores should be able to eat pretty much everything, but preferred gives more

diets in general need a re work, the idea is there but the execution is meh

[golden coral]

Change stego quick angle to a slower, more normal speed, damage down to 1K or so, change the most reaching of the angles to a much quicker attack (if not as fast as the quick angle currently is), with maybe 500 or so damage. Remove the other angles, put the attack on RMB and Alt+ RMB with camera only for which side to hit. Crank up bleed on the stegos attacks more akin to utah pounce in style, remove the extra head multiplier. There you go, a slightly more stego-ish stego, which will be much less capable of hunting deinos, and if utah/pachy gains 500+ weight/health (which they probably could), it'd not oneshot them with damage unless hit by the slower and stronger attack, giving the utahs more chances to survive, even if the bleed might force them to give up the hunt if too many of the pack takes hits.

[hollow canyon]

I completely disagree, Deino wasn't, isn't and shouldn't be meant to be an apex.

As for why it didn't come with a tug type mechanic - because it wasn't ready.

The devs either decided to postpone it or just ignore it outright and go with what we have now.

[hollow canyon]

Deino needs 7 bites

[jolly matrix]

That is absurd

[hollow canyon]

Honestly - just nerf Stego's damage and be done with it, an outright nerf to its damage output should solve most of the issues. It can simply make up for any mistakes it makes with its absurd damage output

[jolly matrix]

Deino should be able to headshot stego in 6 or less bites.

[golden coral]

That + the speed of the quick angle, which is just.. a bit overdone. And yes, 7 hits, or 6 + any hit aside from tip of tail.

[jolly matrix]

If you all agree that stego needs a nerf, then why did you downvote The94thDoctor's post?

[golden coral]

Because I don't think stego needs a nerf, it needs a bit of a rework

[jolly matrix]

That is a nerf.

[golden coral]

See my earlier propsal, that's not just an outright nerf, I'm saying to change it around

[jolly matrix]

If it is making it less powerful is some regard, it is a nerf.

[hollow canyon]

I didn't downvote it

[jolly matrix]

I know aken

[golden coral]

And also because he's complaining about the whole pond issue, which is another issue and not related to stego really, as well as saying deino should be hunting that large prey, when it's current mechanics aren't supporting that very well

[versed rune]

literally just make stego an outlier apex herbivore that can be hunted by mid tiers via being bad at taken headshots, and large tier carnivores have it more difficult because they cannot maneurver around its tail.

[jolly matrix]

His main point was that stego needs a nerf, the pond issue is a such nitpicky thing to downvote for

[calm ibex]

thats the issue though, people are "trapped" to the pond and easy to camp, its direct result of having a pond

[grave veldt]

a nerf and rework are not the same thing

[golden coral]

That's bad when the entire hadrosaur and ceratopsid "line" would be better as such targets.

[versed rune]

because allo should be able to hunt stego, how tf is allo gonna do that right now when a carno, which is much faster than an allo, can barely hit a stego without getting nearly one-shot in return. allo being much slower would make it get eviscerated, at least carno can simply move

[jolly matrix]

If you are reworking a dinosaur to be less op, it is a nerf.

[grave veldt]

so stegos r op

even though the entire roster can escape them

[golden coral]

Allos in pack of 3-4, sure. And they can, because they have more health, more damage, and so on. And they might even be a bit more agile at that. And if you rework it a bit like I want, they'd be quite well suited, since they'd be big enough to handle the fast attacks (that are very hard to juke) but agile enough to juke the power attacks (that in turn would take them out quickly). Meanwhile carno is fragile enough to suffer from even the fast attacks, especially since bleed would shit on it, and it's not agile enough to juke much at all when it comes to movement.

[jolly matrix]

Your only option shouldn't be having to run away from a herbivore. Especially as a pack of carnos or a deino.

Stego is almost unkillable currently. Which is bad game design.

[grave veldt]

first of all a carno pack is not a good choice to kill a stego and secondly deino should've had a tug of war but it doesnt for some reason

[jolly matrix]

It isn't a good choice, but it shouldn't be nearly impossible. That is always the argument. It shouldn't be impossible.

[golden coral]

Yeah, carnos should really not go near stegos at all, or anything else bigger than themselves. Even allos would be scary for a carno.

[grave veldt]

it isnt impossible

nothing is technically impossible

[golden coral]

It isn't impossible. It's doable, just very hard.

You can still damage the stego, and it does not outheal that, so it will die, eventually :p

And as stated, deino struggles with it's design

[grave veldt]

utah packs r what should be hunting stegos currently

[golden coral]

They don't want deino to go on land and fight, and they gave it an attack that is very much oneshot, which means it's bad if they can do that to another playable with that amount of time investment

[grave veldt]

if utah wasnt broken

[cosmic veldt]

In fairness what i was saying was less an overall complaint about the pond itself but more that a stego should not be able to chase and kill in 4 hits a creature that should logically be its offensive superior in virtually every way

[jolly matrix]

You are taking something I'm saying too literally. Obviously its not literally impossible but its HEAVILY unbalanced. Stego should OBVIOUSLY have a big advantage but the current advantage is bordering to that point.

[dark onyx]

And half of the Utah players used their brain

[grave veldt]

a carno is a small game niche hunter it should be one of the worst dinosaurs to kill a stego

[grave veldt]

[golden coral]

Except deino isn't offensively superior. I'd say stego has the better weapons for raw damage honestly. Aside from that, it's more so that well, you're in a pond, you've locked yourself in. Be it a stego or trike or rex, you'd have the same result there. And then there is the design issues with deino, it's not designed to "fight" as it stands. For good or ill.

[cosmic veldt]

It's not that I don't think a Stego shouldn't be one of the herbivores with comparatively more offensive power than other herbivores but being able to carve a path of bloody destruction through any other dinosaur even carnivores can't match is inescapably lame

[golden coral]

Lower the growth time and I'd be fine with making it "easier" to kill a stego. But then people would complain about that no doubt :p

[jolly matrix]

I takes over 17 headshots for a carno to kill a stego. Does that seem fair?

[grave veldt]

i dont see how thats possible when every carnivore is capable of escaping stego with ease also the only reason stego is so lob sided is because the carnivore side is lacking

stego shouldnt have been put into the game but it is what it is

[versed rune]

carnivores shouldnt have to escape herbivores. the point is for carnivores to eat the herbivores.

[golden coral]

Yes. Now do you imagine it'd take less vs a trike or anky or rex or giga? :p

[golden coral]

That depends on the carnivore and herbivore in question, you realize that right?

[grave veldt]

[cosmic veldt]

That's literally my point. The carnivores that are actually SUPPOSED to hunt and kill other dinos should rarely if ever be outmatched directly in terms of raw offensive output against any 1 dinosaur of a similar size

[calm ibex]

carnivore already has the advantage of picking your fights that favour you, how much do u need the game to hand hold you

[jolly matrix]

Your question doesn't make any sense. I know what you are trying to do but it actually doesn't make sense. Stego's head is a small and fragile. Headshots should be stegos weakness way more compared to other dinos.

[grave veldt]

trike vs rex, rex should dominate trike every time?

[versed rune]

name one carnivore that should have to actively run panicking for its life from a specific herbivore the MOMENT it sees it

aside from like

troodon

im saying as a general rule.

[golden coral]

My question makes perfect sense. There is nothing that argues that stegos head is more fragile than a dryo or utah head or anything. And it already is their weakness, because of how their attacks work. The extra head multiplier is stupid and unreasonable. But my point was more so that you're just thinking of stego, forgetting that there'll be other critters. So you'd just go from not complaining about stego to complaining about trike and rex instead.

[jolly matrix]

Plus it is so easy for a stego to dodge headshots with its super fast turning.

Trike has no obvious weakness a carno could exploit, so I wouldn't be.

[grave veldt]

trike has an obvious behind area to attack for carno

[versed rune]

trike is bulky as hell

[jolly matrix]

Its pure muscle behind, sadlion you didnt think your response very well.

[grave veldt]

realism

[golden coral]

I'd argue that if you're not big enough to take it on, any ceratopsid should make you very wary, since they'd be liable to charge you. Pachy is another example that you should be cautious around. Basically, any well offensively designed herbi is probably something you should be careful around if you're not big enough to overpower it easily.

[jolly matrix]

Realism, if a carno bites a stegos head, it would literally die. What is your point?

[golden coral]

Except it turns even slower than stego and has a big open rear to bite? :p

[jolly matrix]

Applying realism fully is just dumb.

[grave veldt]

who cares if it has fat or muscle the point is stego can cover much more areas with its tail rather then trike who can cover one specific area at a time

[versed rune]

fragile head of stego with a headshot multiplier vs three horned tank with normal 1x damage or less being applied due to possible tail hits

[golden coral]

@jolly matrixIf a carno should not hunt a trike, it should not hunt a stego either. Or a giga, or rex, or anything else large.

Hell, even a para would flatten a carno

[grave veldt]

GamingParasaur would be proud

[jolly matrix]

My whole point is that stego should have a bigger headshot multiplier on ITS head as its weakness since its so effective at dodging with its head.

[golden coral]

And that thing doesn't even have much in terms of weapons :p

[alpine plover]

it has a pretty tiny head yeah

[jolly matrix]

Its actually so easy to dodge headshots as a stego.

[grave veldt]

it already has a 2X multiplier

[golden coral]

It shouldn't even have an extra multiplier, it's not logical at all.

[jolly matrix]

Thats not logical...?

[alpine plover]

Just to but in here
How would it not be logical?

[golden coral]

It's not. There's nothing that says a stego would be more fragile

[versed rune]

my point is that carnivores should not have to worry about actively being pursued by herbivores. they need to WATCH OUT for them but they shouldnt have to run to the ends of the earth to avoid

[golden coral]

You're telling me, a dryos head is stronger than a stegos head? ^^

[versed rune]

bro its head is tiny

[alpine plover]

I'm not

[golden coral]

tiny in comparison to it's body

[cosmic veldt]

The fact of the matter is that if this game is supposedly opting for realism than there would not and should not be a situation in which any lone herbivore can make mincemeat of any carnivore equal to or bigger than it. Now if you were to say, for example, that there was a mechanic where herds of the same herbivore that fight together get a damage buff for working together THAT makes more sense because no carnivore should conversely should be able to carve through an entire pack of similarly sized herbivores. As it stands however, the current damage meta is broken massively in favor of the stego and, more broadly, reliant on a finicky targeting system that simply cannot be exploited realistically

[golden coral]

Then why do dryo not have the same extra multiplier?

[grave veldt]

its only small relative to its body, the head itself isnt as small as it seems

[golden coral]

Which was my point

[calm ibex]

where do you see realism in this game?

[jolly matrix]

For the sake of gameplay and balance

[golden coral]

It's not logical, cause the stego head is no more fragile built than a dryo or utah head

[jolly matrix]

IF the game was designed on 100% realism, it would be terrible.

[golden coral]

Which isn't needed

[jolly matrix]

Balance isnt needed?

[alpine plover]

Simple, gameplay reasons
Dryo is supposed to run and scurry away to escape
Stego is a tank anti flank creature
Two completely different creatures

realistic rex in the isle

[golden coral]

The extra head multiplier isn't needed

[jolly matrix]

Why?

[calm ibex]

if your aim is realism you'd have like couple dinos viable and everything else fodder that died on sight

[golden coral]

Yes. But as I said, it's not logical. Which was my point. Stego heads are not more fragile than dryo or utah heads, as such, there is no logic in making them have extra head multiplier.

And stego, like kentro and anky, due to having attacks in the rear, is already weaker in the front, unlike a rex that can bite you in return, or a trike that has armor + attack.

[jolly matrix]

Erik Eden we are talking proportionally, for literal balance it is logical, UNLESS the devs think of a better system.

[golden coral]

All I'm saying, is that the extra head multiplier is not logical, and is not needed by any means.

[alpine plover]

(they won't)

[alpine plover]

Two different health pools though
Dryo's body is squishy enough to be munched on or bled out in 1-3 bites almost anywhere on the body
Stego has multiple thousands of an hp pool

[versed rune]

best skeletals that i was able to find quickly so sorry for the bad crop, but here is carnotaurus skull size compared to a stegosaurus skull size.

to say that headshots should not matter is ludicrous.

[golden coral]

The only thing it possibly does is make it so stego requires extra damage on it's attacks

[cosmic veldt]

This game is not built to be a battle royale killcount bloodsport for the violent and competitive players out there. It should not be built where every dinosaur is meant to be able to kill shit

[grave veldt]

the stego head image is missing btw

[golden coral]

I think you need to try that again, I see a carno head but the stego down there is not showing anything

[alpine plover]

i see its head

[golden coral]

That has nothing to do with my point, how much health or weight they have?

[versed rune]

the front dinosaur is a sauropod lol i cropped it from this

the stegos are behind

[alpine plover]

stego head is like non existent

[alpine plover]

Because it's a false equivalence
Those are two different animals with different sizes and different gameplay styles

[golden coral]

None of which has any relation to my point about the head multiplier.

[versed rune]

we have reached an era where i have to resort to skeletals to prove that stegosaurus had a tiny head vulnerable to attacks

we live in a society

[golden coral]

Gameplay style, or different size of the anial, is not relevant to my point

[jolly matrix]

Making stegos head have a bigger headshot bonus isn't unlogical. It's stupidly easy for a stego to dodge headshots. Actually brainlessly easy.

[alpine plover]

[golden coral]

I did not say it did not have a tiny head, or was'nt vunerable. I said it's not more fragile than a dryo head and so on. But by all means ignore my actual point.

[jolly matrix]

It doesn't seem like you are applying any sort of gameplay logic at all Eric.

[alpine plover]

Your the one who used the example of dryo and stego
I'm saying it's not a fair example given they have different weaknesses and exploits

[golden coral]

Them having other weaknesses is irrelevant to my point

[alpine plover]

i mean with the current roster and balance i wouldn't mind an extra head multiplier for stego

[golden coral]

It's a fair example cause we're using the size of the head as the reason

[versed rune]

what does dryo have to do with anything tho

dryos head doesnt matter because it gets murdered by most things with body shots anyway

[golden coral]

Saying tiny stego head = extra multiplier

[alpine plover]

Dryo's biggest weakness is being stationery to get hit
Stego's biggest strength is staying stationery to counter

[versed rune]

correct

[golden coral]

So I'm saying then any tiny head should have that multiplier if that's what causes the weakness

[versed rune]

???????

[jolly matrix]

Also for gameplay. Gameplay is always number one priority over realism.

[golden coral]

You're bringing in unrelated points

[alpine plover]

Nah, any flanker should have a weakness that should be exploited

[golden coral]

Yes, but a logical one. Which this is not.

[cosmic veldt]

Honestly I think EVERYONE here is missing the greater point. This current QA meta is broken on a level that countless minor changes and alterations won't fix and will arguable make worse

[jolly matrix]

Erik you are literally trying to justify your point with realism which is beyond unlogical to put it nicely.

[alpine plover]

QA is awful right now. in more ways than one

[alpine plover]

How so?
Stego covers almost every degree of it's body
Even to it's head?

MANY more ways

[golden coral]

No, I'm using nothing but pure logic, not even "realism" here. You just can't counter it.

[versed rune]

revert everything back to original update 3 stats and then make changes from there

[alpine plover]

Stego has to play keep away with it's head
Time it's attacks for devastating counters

remember deino and stego having a 50/50 squareoff back then

[jolly matrix]

Your only point is "why should stego only have it and not dryo"

[cosmic veldt]

Your opinion doesn't = pure logic. You can't just declare it infallible

[golden coral]

Except it doesn't far as I know. But even so, why is it so hard for you and the others to simply counter my point logically. If the reason the stego has an extra multiplier is due to "small head", then apply that to everything. Have consistency in your logic, simple as that.

[golden coral]

Except it's not my opinion. Simple as that.

[versed rune]

remember when literally every animal wasnt nerfed to shit

[jolly matrix]

Your point literally makes no sense in terms of gameplay.

[alpine plover]

utah when its main ability doesn't even work, it's such a joke rn

[golden coral]

You're justifying stego head multiplier by "small head", and so I'm saying it should apply to everything if you want to be logical. Nothing else is part of the point or relevant to it.

[versed rune]

ok so give all dinosaurs with small heads high multipliers

[alpine plover]

I'm not arguing "small head should be weak"
I'm saying that an anti flanker tank should have the weakness of having a crit part of it's body

[versed rune]

im not against that at all

[hollow canyon]

This is a size comparison(more or less) of all the animals scheduled for Evrima.

Stego's head is roughly the size of Dilo's head

[golden coral]

It does. Since there are other ways to work with stuff, and since you're entirely missing that the real weakness of a rear defended animal is lack of protection and counter for the front, not a specific multiplier.

[golden coral]

Sure, I'd be down for that. All I'm asking is to use proper logic in applying things.

[hollow canyon]

it's not much smaller than the head of Ceratosaurus

[alpine plover]

Ehhh, if you include the neck for Stego maybe

[golden coral]

And that's fine, it already is a weak point due to lack of defense and counter. An extra head multiplier does not change that. The critical is already there, since head by definition is more vunerable.

[hollow canyon]

I think its headshot multiplier should depend on the state of the animal itself.

I haven't played Stego in over a year now

[grave veldt]

stego convo still going on?

[hollow canyon]

I do know that initially it was much less agile

so hiding its head was harder

[alpine plover]

Then it depends on what kind of apex should it be
Removing it would put it more of in line with the other Apexes

[hollow canyon]

But now I believe it turns somewhat better so protecting the head should be somewhat easier

[golden coral]

@alpine ploverLook, my point is very simple. If you justify stego head multiplier with "small head", then you should apply it logically to anything with that size of head. And anything bigger, should possibly have a smaller head multiplier. If you want to give stego weaknesses, that's fine, it already has when it comes to the lack of ability to attack in front of it, which works both on defense and offense. Whereas for example if you attack a carno face with another carno, it will bite back with full power.

[alpine plover]

good, don't ever play it. it's just the pure definition of boring

[hollow canyon]

I mean I almost died of boredom when I've grown it once after it came out

[golden coral]

Not.. quite sure what you're answering there, since I was busy trying to clarify my point here.

[hollow canyon]

Decided not to bother with it again since it was the biggest snoozefest ever

[alpine plover]

5 hours to walk around and eat plants

The Apex it is now is that it's more vulnerable to being hunted by other mid tiers
You could decrease the growth times or remove it to have it more in line with the other Apexes in it's size range

[hollow canyon]

The thing is - those other animals with heads the size of Stego's head have much smaller health pools

so they already take "more damage" relatively to their max hp

[versed rune]

^^

[golden coral]

anky and stego both suffer from "lack of protection on front", and "lack of attack in front". (usually those work together). Anky on the other hand has armor, so it has some compensation there.

[hollow canyon]

Stego has the head the size of Dilo's head yet it it has almost ~10 times more hp

[golden coral]

But that goes for any attack on any point

Not sure how that is relevant since it's not a head target specific issue

[hollow canyon]

Yes, this is the reason why they shouldn't have a higher headshot multipliers

they may have heads the size of that of Stego

[golden coral]

My issue is simply the illogical justifications for stegos extra head multiplier despite it not being more fragile

[hollow canyon]

but one headshot that would take them out with a x2.0 multiplier

[golden coral]

But the multiplier should be applied due to weak spot, not due to "health pool" reason

[hollow canyon]

tickles Stego which has the head of the same size

like - let's say that if we have an Alberto that crunches Dilo's head in its jaws and bites with that one bite

[golden coral]

Well yes, different health yields different results

[hollow canyon]

the same headshot to Stego would at best tickle that Stego

[golden coral]

That's the point of having a health pool

You're what, asking for the same effect of a bite on different things?

[hollow canyon]

No, the point they are asking for is for Stego's head to take more damage

since it's about as "protected" and "armoured" as Dilo's/Cerato's head

and yet Stego has many times more hp

[versed rune]

wait now are we saying that an alberto headshotting a stego wouldnt do anything to it

[hollow canyon]

so something that would realistically crunch Stego's/Dilo's head

does little to nothing to Stego and absolutely kills a Dilo

[golden coral]

... But that is exactly what is illogical, it is as protected, thus should have the same amount of damage taken from the bite, the same effect.

Yes, due to game not being realistic, as we know

[alpine plover]

It kind've would considered Stego is beefy in hp pool
even with the headshot multiplier, the translation to damage would be a tickle

[golden coral]

That also.. kind of applies to most hits

[alpine plover]

Alberto and Allo headshots on Stego would be love taps

[golden coral]

@hollow canyonSo they're asking for the same effect despite different targets?

[hollow canyon]

No

[golden coral]

Basically negating the health pool?

[hollow canyon]

Well I don't think they want something that even approaches that

but

what I'm understanding from what's being said is that

since Stego's head is very vulnerable when compared to most other animals with that HP pool

let's say Acro/Trike/what have you

if it gets hit on the head it should receive more damage

[golden coral]

Trike admittedly bad example due to armor, but acro works. But is acro head much less vunerable, really? That's my contention here.

And taking HP pool into account when it has nothing to do with it

[hollow canyon]

I mean yea I'd say so

Acro's head is much bigger, it's much harder to actually apply enough force to it to reach the brain-matter

[golden coral]

Which would, in that case, apply to any critter. Which is still my contention then.

[alpine plover]

That's going for realism approaches though
Hitboxes and multipliers or species gameplay type should be the point

[golden coral]

It should. But it should also make sense and be logical. And adding extra multipliers where it's not needed, causes extra damage to have to be applied to the targets attacks to counter it.

[hollow canyon]

I mean - Trike is supposed to have a lower headshot multiplier, because it has a particularly well protected head(pachy already does that). The likes of Deino and Carno have heads that aren't particularly vulnerable but aren't exactly extremely armoured either

[golden coral]

You make stego head extremely weak, great, now it needs to twoshot a rex in return to stand a chance.

[alpine plover]

To put it this way
Stego should have the extra multipler for it's head given that it's a weakness since it's an anti flank tank type creature
For the same reason Trike should have a decreased head multiplier because it's a front forward spear/shield type creature

[golden coral]

Should trike have extra multiplier on rear then? :p

[versed rune]

https://tenor.com/view/negative-reaction-genie-aladdin-what-gif-5581463

[grave veldt]

Yk my main gripe with the whole discussion in the first place is that the suggestion were debating about is mainly a map issue

[hollow canyon]

I really don't think this is a map issue at all

[alpine plover]

Is Trike encouraged to be hunted by mid tiers?

[hollow canyon]

as much as people like to claim that literally every issue with the game is caused by the bad map, a lot of them don't really seem to be quite that

[golden coral]

It should be hunted by small and mids yes. Without a doubt. All ceratopsids should.

[hollow canyon]

Is it not? I literally don't know

[golden coral]

Stego should only be hunted by large mids in packs, and large predators really.

Same as with anky, except anky is even less of a target :p

[jolly matrix]

Your ass is not a vital organ

[alpine plover]

Again, realism approach

[golden coral]

Ceratopsids and hadrosaurs are the ones that should be weak to small and midtiers

[alpine plover]

Trike is kind've unclear if it's suitable prey for mids

[jolly matrix]

Erik this response, again, makes 0 logical sense.

[golden coral]

No but if stego has extra head due to "need weakness" and trike has armored head, then trike needs its own weakness, no?

[grave veldt]

Not putting the entire blame on the map of course theres other issues here as well

[golden coral]

Look at the thing I was answering and it makes sense :p

[alpine plover]

If Trike needs a weakness, it should be it's neck

[golden coral]

I'm just looking at what makes sense

Trike can not defend its flanks and rear

[jolly matrix]

This makes sense.

[golden coral]

Means it's open to a lot of stuff

[alpine plover]

But I don't know how if that's possible with the game's functions

[jolly matrix]

An ass is very easy to hit

[golden coral]

Honestly, yes, but at the same time.. Neck is right there with head

[hollow canyon]

Idk how in the world you want Trike's "neck" to be its weakness

[jolly matrix]

a head on a stego isnt easy at all.

[golden coral]

Trike turns head, well there you go

[hollow canyon]

it's literally protected by the frill

[jolly matrix]

Trike probably wont turn as fast as stego

[hollow canyon]

I kind of doubt that

I think it's quite likely to turn even better

[golden coral]

It was more so me asking Nacen if trike should have "extra weakness" then since that's kind of their argument

[jolly matrix]

Stego's head is smaller, therefore a smaller hit point. Plus as I said multiple times, stego's head is stupidly easy to dodge with.

[alpine plover]

Damn Trike just built different then
Literally almost has no weaknesses in design

[golden coral]

Great, that sounds promising :p

Anky even better though!

[hollow canyon]

The animal lived in the "Hell's Creek"

that name didn't come out of nowhere

[grave veldt]

trike will most likey turn probably even better then stego honestly

[alpine plover]

Anky has a soft belly, I don't think the devs will ever have intuitive mechanics to play off of that

[golden coral]

Probably not, or if we get it, it's a way in the future

[grave veldt]

with their weird mammalian anky design im not sure what the devs want to do with anky

[golden coral]

@alpine ploverAt least we can agree on that much, that there's.. a lack of good mechanics and progress on those things in this game :p

[alpine plover]

True

You almost had me with Trike rear point
But Trike is just something else

[golden coral]

Running anky!

[grave veldt]

anky gallop with jab

[golden coral]

Wait and see, it'll run faster than stego :p

[grave veldt]

r they planning on making anky run from apexes or something

hope not

[golden coral]

I wasn't entirely serious, but it was more so. If we argue stego should have extra multiplier for a proper weakness, then well, there's a fair few other critters that you could apply that logic too. And in trikes case, or ceratopsid case, it gets weird cause head is most certainly not a weakness. But at the same time, rear isn't really vital, so.. :p

Could make the base of the tail a weak spot maybe

Bleed em out that way

Soft and good to rip open :p

[grave veldt]

I could've sworn in a dev blog they stated that ceratopsians would have necks as their weak spot

lemme see if i can find it

[alpine plover]

Trike seems to have a tough hide

[jolly matrix]

Trike having its neck as a weakspot makes a lot more sense than its ass. Since proportionally it would be comparably hard as hitting stegos head.

[alpine plover]

Couple tons of muscle and fat
Having it be a weakness is as arbitrary as attacking the rear of Stego

[grave veldt]

getting the neck is quite difficult tho

[golden coral]

@alpine ploverOn the other hand, if you removed the stego head multiplier, you could nerf the stego damage a fair amount. You need less power if you don't add "exaggerated" weaknesses. Stego will always have a weak head due to tail not covering it, and the lack of proper counter, meaning it's a lot safer to attack the weak spot on a stego as compared to a rex, much less a trike. So I could possibly make an argument that for balance, stego having normal head multiplier is probably better, for the matchups in general.

[grave veldt]

right next to the head so

[alpine plover]

Though albeit it is a realism argument

[golden coral]

Animals do hunt by nipping something elses rear, assriding as it were, so there is that

[alpine plover]

I don't think that's a solution
Remember Stego is going to have to go toe to toe with Rexes/Acro's/Gigas

[golden coral]

But much less dangerous :p

[alpine plover]

It needs the damage to ward off those predators

Otherwise it'll be chow

[jolly matrix]

What is less dangerous?

[grave veldt]

ass

thats sounds bad out of context

[golden coral]

Yes. That's what I'm thinking of. If you remove the multiplier, it won't need as much damage. Those two things goes together, no? The greater the weakness, the less room for fighting you have, so the more damage in return? Or am I missing something here?

[golden coral]

Going for a stego head, vs a trikes neck.

Since the stego does not have it's weapon right there, while the trike just have to look to the side and "oh hi there"

[jolly matrix]

Yeah but stegos head is much EASIER to dodge with.

So it balances out.

[alpine plover]

It needs the exaggerated damage to ward off those huge apexes
But if it's prey to Allo or Alberto packs, the head multiplier needs to stay otherwise it can sneeze off those attempts 99% of the time.

[golden coral]

Why would you need the exaggerated damage in any case? I'm not sure I see a need for it there if it's not as vunerable in the first place

[alpine plover]

Because Rex/Giga will ignore Stego's attacks and mow it down

Either through damage or bleed

[golden coral]

How much damage do you imagine they'd have then?

[alpine plover]

Only way to make your suggestion work is to give Stego a stun

[golden coral]

If you're thinking that it wouldn't matter if it has a weakness or not

[alpine plover]

Although Stego is a special case
Vulnerable to mid tiers
But must effectively fight apexes

[versed rune]

nerfing stego's damage will only do the exact same thing that happened to carno, teno, and utah when their damages were nerfed.

makes them feel unnecessarily weak and makes fights drag on for way too long

damage nerfs are, unless in VERY specific cases, never the right option

this applies to every animal in this game and every game in general

[golden coral]

Well, what "way too long" is, is a bit subjective. I'd rather have longer fights than shorter personally.

[alpine plover]

True, unless all the apexes have significantly lower damage pools
Rexes/Giga's will have no problem tanking Stegos

[golden coral]

And considering people think 6-7 hits is "too long", I don't know.. :p

[versed rune]

6-7 hits being too long is, a bit subjective

it literally depends on the animals fighting

[golden coral]

Between equals, more or less I guess

But people thinking deino should kill stego faster, well, then that goes the other way around too

[alpine plover]

It's a bit subjective
I enjoy quicker fights

[golden coral]

And I'm not sure it'd be that fun if they 2shot each other

[alpine plover]

Far less room for error and increased intensity

[golden coral]

also less room for any skill, no? :p

[jolly matrix]

Honestly, two animals of the same tier or species shouldn't take more than 12 hits to kill eachother

[alpine plover]

I disagree
I find lower fight times increase skill

[versed rune]

if you make it take a million hits to kill anything you are remaking legacy.

[golden coral]

I'm inclined to think longer fights are better, more room for things to happen and change

[versed rune]

legacy had long fights.

[tall bronze]

Hunts and fights gotta have a balance of length. Too long and it feels boring, too short and the game feels more like deathmatch

[golden coral]

Legacy was fine :p

Fast fights allows more luck

[golden coral]

Except if it only requires a hit or two, you can get far more luck out of it

[versed rune]

you're trolling right

[golden coral]

No? The more that is required of you, the more you have to do it right

If I oneshot something, I can get the kill due to luck as well as skill

[grave veldt]

I finally found it

". This is also future proofing us for playables later on, such as Ceratopsians that would have much thicker skulls (and therefore take less damage to their heads), while they may have an increased modifier towards their neck."

[alpine plover]

Depends on the circumstances
There's body multipliers, and bleed doesn't wash you down anymore in seconds

[golden coral]

True, but even so. The more times you have to do something, the more you have to rely on your own ability?

[jolly matrix]

This statement specifically, this is a joke right?

[golden coral]

Not at all. Unlike you, I don't think everything was bad in legacy. Some things were, but hey, it lasted for a good few years and I have a good few hours there and in progression, so yeah.

[jolly matrix]

Current legacy.

[alpine plover]

Fights could also "last longer" given the two opponents gauge each other, and observe each other's movements given that one mistep is their end.

[jolly matrix]

Do think current legacy is fun?

[golden coral]

Current legacy is still more fine than not to me. Biggest issue right now, lack of official servers there. If they had, I'd still be playing that too :p

[golden coral]

That would be nice yes.

[grave veldt]

current legacy is a mess rn

[golden coral]

Well yes, ever since they tried to fix stuff.. :p

[jolly matrix]

Since you have said this, every opinion you have on balance is instantly invalidated. Have a good day.

[grave veldt]

honestly all 3 branches r a problem

[golden coral]

Perhaps I should clarify, legacy before Evrima came out then

[golden coral]

Great argument. Here's a counter: Apply that to yourself.

[tall bronze]

Legacy has some good memories. But, even in it's current state, I still find Evrima superior.

[grave veldt]

evrima doesnt have parasaurolophus walkeri

[tall bronze]

Again

Evrima is superior to me

[grave veldt]

[tall bronze]

HEEEEHEEEHEEEE

[golden coral]

Mechanics in Evrima good, but aside from that, legacy is fine as well

[versed rune]

https://tenor.com/view/what-starlord-star-lord-what-guardians-of-the-galaxy-i-know-that-sounds-bad-gif-20738349

[tall bronze]

I think one of my biggest gripes with legacy was hit detection.

And growth.

And balance.

And the code

[grave veldt]

ever since they did that "fix" to legacy it went down hill from an already deep slope

[golden coral]

Balance was fine in legacy, far as I'm concerned. Growth, eh.. seamless is obviously nicer, but again, mechanic more than not.

[grave veldt]

rex only dino with leg break

[golden coral]

Well, barring some issues with pachy, para, and cerato on some points :p

[alpine plover]

Cera would like a word

[golden coral]

Rex still okay, despite that :p

[tall bronze]

When a dev says they can't let you smell corpses because that'd make all living players also scentable.......something is definitely wrong with the code.

[alpine plover]

Giga would like word

Para too

[golden coral]

See earlier. But in general, I don't agree that legacy had terrible balance :p

Also para used to be good :D

[grave veldt]

para was quite amazing for a specific amount of time

[versed rune]

yea having to left click a rex 50+ times as an allo to kill it is balanced

[golden coral]

But it's more so I don't think the overall.. idea, or concept, of the balance in legacy was an issue

[alpine plover]

Allo abuse heal strat taking on Sucho's/Albertos/Sub Rexes

[grave veldt]

if u want to be technical then every dinosaur in legacy is the same

[tall bronze]

Yep

[grave veldt]

they only had different models hit boxes and stats

[golden coral]

Yes. Hunt the weak and young. You just want fights, I want hunts. No wonder you want quick and mindless balance ^^

[tall bronze]

Hunts were fun

[alpine plover]

Damn, what a micro aggression

[golden coral]

Well, you guys do seem to want just outright fighting

Wanting faster fights and all

[alpine plover]

Well, fighting is fun
But to say it's outright mindless comes off as passive aggression

[golden coral]

Meanwhile I want a more survival focused game where you generally don't get into fights, but hunt, and choose targets wisely

[versed rune]

what? who said they dont want hunts? theres a difference between fights and hunts. fights should be quicker, hunts longer. a fight occurs WITHIN a hunt.

[golden coral]

So there's the reason for why I think balance was okay in legacy, I guess.

[golden coral]

Well, you used "having to click 50 times to kill a rex as an allo". I never saw that as an issue due to not hunting rexes as allo, why would I? I'm in the game to survive, not to get into epic fights :p

[grave veldt]

the bleed system in legacy wasn't as bad as people think it was

it had garbage balancing

[tall bronze]

Eeeeeeeh

[golden coral]

So my balance take is based around survival, not around "fighting".

[versed rune]

are you saying that this game should not focusing on dino fights at all

[alpine plover]

It wasn't. just crazy high values and lack of counters to bleed

[versed rune]

because the people who enjoy fun would like to see both hunting and fighting

[grave veldt]

yea thats why I said if it was balanced properly with more mechanics it would've been better

[golden coral]

I'd like to see a full gameplay loop, a proper lifecycle, and that does include hunting and fighting. But my balance, and takes, are based on you being able to survive. If that means you can only fight a small percentage of the roster, that's fine by me, thinking in terms of ecosystem and niches.

[versed rune]

but then that means you are forced BY THE GAME to ignore 90% of the roster

no matter what you are

that's just stupid

[golden coral]

@versed runeDoes that help clarify it? If you dislike balance in legacy due to "too hard to hunt certain things", I get it. But I disagree due to my balance being "Can I kill what I need to survive", which is obviously different.

@versed runeI mean, if I' m a herrera, then yes. I'd expect most of the roster to be out of my reach 99.9% of my playtime. Obviously this vary by species and abilities and so on.

[tall bronze]

I'd prefer fights to be something you normally don't want. Foszor talked about it once, saying they want fights to go from "I only got in 3 fights today" to "DUDE. I GOT IN 3 FIGHTS TODAY"

[golden coral]

This is not an issue as long as my lifecycle and gameplay loop as herrera is still fun and interesting

I don't base my entertainment on the amount of things I can interact with, as much as the interactions and the rest of the game

[alpine plover]

Also, it maybe survival. It almost always boils down to hunt/fights
It's not survival against pve mainly
Having fun mechanics focused on the encounter to fights only helps it as a survival game as a whole
Someone has a body that you need? You might need to fight them
A Carni approaches you to eat you? You'll need to fight or escape
Someone threatening your nest? You're likely gonna have to fight them

[golden coral]

Not sure how I can clarify it any better.

[golden coral]

Huh, I vaguely remember that :p

[tall bronze]

It was in the olde days of Recode

[alpine plover]

It'll be hard to do that with mechanics
People really dislike(I included) against inflated growth times

[versed rune]

herrera is very small compared to the rest of the roster. the focus is on mid tiers and pseudo apex tiers and you know that. mid tiers and pseudo apexes should have the most overlap with the large tiers and small tiers

simply because of the nature of being in the "middle"

[golden coral]

@alpine ploverHonestly, I see survival in terms of PvE, PvP, and Co-Op, and I think all of those three separate parts should be well developed and important for the lifecycle. (thinking in terms of playing as an animal here btw, not your normal human build a base stuff)

[tall bronze]

Fair point. If we actually had more stuff to do than fight, it may not be as bad. But currently, I h a t e i t

[grave veldt]

diets are a chore thats pretty much it

and carnivores till 50% dont even need to participate in the system

[golden coral]

Well, the focus in Evrima is "small playables", but we know how that went. I'm just trying to give you examples, I think legacy balance in general was fine due to my approach of the game. You want more interactions between the tiers, whereas I'm fine with less. I also apologize for being rude. And I kind of agree, overlap is fine, but I also think it should vary even there.

[alpine plover]

True, the survival aspect having work helps it
But having mechanics making engagements dynamic only helps
Doesn't negate other mechanics
If people only ever fight? Guess what. There's no other mechanics to support the survival aspect
Just like Evrima

The only thing you can do in Evrima is to fight or birdbath
Guess what people gravitate to

[golden coral]

I know. And diets didn't do much to help either.. :p

[alpine plover]

Yes, fetch questing eventually ends. Which leads to bird bathing, or finally going out to go fight with their extra buffs

[grave veldt]

theres still nothing to do while growing which is why ppl afk

[alpine plover]

I afk moreso now with diets than before

[golden coral]

@alpine ploverQuick question, how much damage do you imagine an allo or alberto would do?

[alpine plover]

Nothing too higher to compete with Deino for sure

Maybe the 300's area. Tad higher for Alberto

[grave veldt]

750

[wise sparrow]

@terse hazel oh boo hoo the animal who poses no threat to anything at all flys kinda fast. The balance is ruined!!!

[alpine plover]

For Allo?

Damn

[tall bronze]

[grave veldt]

yes

[alpine plover]

That's crazy

[grave veldt]

750 (this is balanced)

[alpine plover]

Ahh he's trolling lol

[grave veldt]

maybe 300 for allo

I would like for it to rely on grapple

[golden coral]

@alpine ploverSo about 15ish headshots on a stego from an allo to kill it then.

[alpine plover]

Which is good then

[grave veldt]

allo is getting a grapple so dpending on how that works

[alpine plover]

One strike is enough to put an Allo out of commission with the added bleed

[golden coral]

Only if you hit with the power attack, and even then, that'd do about half an allos health if it's a body hit. Mind you, according to my changes and all.

@alpine ploverAlso, those 15 hits, that's with normal head multiplier and 8K health :p

[alpine plover]

Right, but current Evrima's Stego strikes are decimating to put the trade on an equal playing field

Allo is also not as fast as Carno, or nimble as Utah
So it landing those shots won't be a breeze against an anti flanker

[versed rune]

you want it to take FIFTEEN headshots for an allo to kill a stego??? HEADSHOTS???

[alpine plover]

Well....

Doesn't seem that unfair

Allo should have the bleed on it's side

Not everything needs to be raw hp brawls like Cera

[dusky surge]

hi, just coming in to say 750 bite force for allo is utterly fucking absurd

if DEINO is 500

[wise sparrow]

Legacy allo was a bit over 2 hours to grow and the grow times normally dont change that much. stego is 5 hours at the least

[alpine plover]

he was trollin

[dusky surge]

why the fuck would ALLO be 750

[alpine plover]

trolling

[versed rune]

Allo is slower than carno. Allo is a slightly bigger target than carno. how is allo going to get 15 consecutive headshots without dying

[dusky surge]

honestly, allo being bleeder means it should probably have a lower biteforce for size, higher bleed

[versed rune]

that's utterly insane, regardless of bleed damage

[wise sparrow]

i mean irl allo had shite bite force for its size

[alpine plover]

Because it's not relying on raw hp damage like Cera

Less insane if you factor in heavy bleed status effects

[dusky surge]

a stego should rarely be dying to the raw damage of an allo, much more to its bleed, a lot like utah

[wise sparrow]

stego mains when they realize they will eventually have a predator

[alpine plover]

It's not like legacy anymore, we have special abilities to close the gap now

[dusky surge]

utah should be that predator, but due to its, well, everything, it isn't

like utah needs to actually fucking work before it's a viable predator

[wise sparrow]

im defo gonna play stego once utahs fixed or allo comes out. honestly its hard to tell what will come first

[alpine plover]

We don't need to brawl everything in every given circumstance
Though other things we should
imo Utah's should brawl Teno's again just for the sake of how addicting the gameplay was

[versed rune]

any and all mid tier carnivores should not take more than 12 headshots to kill a stego and i will stand by that forever because of how absurd having to get 15 individual bites to kill an animal with a TINY head is, meanwhile stego can simply click at the right moment and delete 50%+ of a mid tier's hp

[grave veldt]

ok so 1000 it is

[dusky surge]

we aren't doing legacy anymore, we should not be going based on fights where we only LMB

[grave veldt]

yk theres someone out there looking at 1000 being ok with it lol

[alpine plover]

Well
It takes Utah 30 plus headshots to kill a Stego
But if you factor in consecutive (working) pounces. They should burn it down within minutes

[hollow canyon]

it takes way more than that, where did you get 30 from?

[alpine plover]

Just at the top of my head, couldn't remember the exact numbers

[versed rune]

people arent gonna be spam LMBing a stego in evrima i can guarantee

[hollow canyon]

Utah takes like... 55?

[grave veldt]

bites are not the only way to kill a stego allo will have grapple which will probably be way more effective

[dusky surge]

so what's the issue with the headshot count

[golden coral]

To be fair, utahs really should not be hunting the antiflankers, with them being the most flanker style animals we have in the game. But allos agility would help them enough with my rework, since any "easy to land" attack would be something they could take one or two of and still be fine with. Not really a fan of the whole massive damage for stego honestly, it seems like something more for trike.

[alpine plover]

Right
Pachy doesn't need to Lmb either
It has a special headbutt attack

[versed rune]

the fact that you have to dive in at least 15 individual times as an allosaurus to kill a stego

[dusky surge]

but we aren't just LMBing, like you said

[alpine plover]

Allo's should be brawling Alberto's/Cera's/Carnos
They shouldn't be brawling Stego's and use their tool kit to close the gap

[grave veldt]

yea utah has 55 N currently so it would take 55 bites from utah on the head

[golden coral]

Yes. I don't see that as an issue. Again, I like long fights, I like that apexes/large tiers aren't generally hunted, and I believe there'll be lots of other, more favourable things. And again, compared to the other large tiers, I don't see an issue there.

[alpine plover]

Same way how you argued yourself Carno should headbutt charge Stego heads

It shouldn't be the only way
But it should help

[versed rune]

you cannot spam bite a stego. allo is slower than carno. it is also a larger target, ie easier for stego to hit. stego will likely kill allo in 2-3 hits. you have to take into account hits that dont register. if a stego, with all of its advantages, lets an allo get 10 headshots on it, let alone 12, it deserves to be killed.

[golden coral]

But you're not.. hunting it as a solo allo?

[dusky surge]

allo is a pack hunter for larger animals

a solo allo will get their ass whooped, rightfully so

[alpine plover]

Well. Allo's are a generalist predator

A Menace solo, terrible to see in packs

[versed rune]

even against a pack of allosaurs a stego should not necessarily have an issue in its current state

[golden coral]

I suggested once that maybe allos could "pin" a stego tail

But that didn't go over well for some reason :p

[versed rune]

simply based on predicting allos stats compared to carno's right now

[alpine plover]

Well, if Allo has those base stats
But has the tool kit and devastating bleed to deal with Stego
It could be serviceable

[dusky surge]

we literally know nothing about how the allo grapple will work but apparently it's already decided that allo stands no chance if its bite force isn't high enough

[alpine plover]

Remember Utah is trash if we only look at it's base stats. But (if pounce works and get's adjustments to it's bite)
It's a menace to the roster

Ever moreso in a group

Base stats aren't always the only way to make a creature viable
Pachy says hi

[golden coral]

Comparing allo and carno might not be the best either

[versed rune]

i do not understand how you can justify a stegosaurus being able to tank an allosaurus biting its head FIFTEEN times for the sake of quite literally FORCING allo to use its ability

[dusky surge]

lmao look at utah my good man

[versed rune]

bites shouldnt be useless

utah is tiny compared to a stego

[alpine plover]

They won't be

[versed rune]

allo is larger than carno

[alpine plover]

But the tool kit is supposed to help

Not be dependent on, but to push it to punch up or exploit

[golden coral]

I'll justify it based on how stego compares to the other large tiers, small and weak head or not. It is an apex, or should be, and should be comparable in power and survivability to the others. More or less. Obviously a trike would be even longer of a hunt, but possibly a bit safer, than a stego hunt.

[dusky surge]

stego is literally the smallest of the apex tier

[golden coral]

Technically I think anky is tinier, but it has armor so :p

[dusky surge]

smaller, but not lighter

[golden coral]

i think it is? 7,5T vs potential 8T

[dusky surge]

anky is literally a walking suit of armour

[golden coral]

Granetd, they're about similar weight, both being "tiny" :p

But yeh, anky has armor

[alpine plover]

15 bites isn't useless imo
A consistent pack could make it work

Skilled players in a group might even mow down a couple of Stegos with the help of bleed and it's special abilities

We're also forgetting how good Allo's bleed will be

[golden coral]

Possible changes to bleed at that, as a mechanic

[alpine plover]

Right

Bleed needs more adjustments, some nerfs and buffs in areas

[golden coral]

I know, we have little faith, but again, we both want more and better things :p

[grave veldt]

well not anymore i'd say its pretty much there with the rest of em (if were using irl scales and not the 6 T stego we currently have)

[golden coral]

And bleed sounded more interesting on paper I think at least (the trello card)

[dusky surge]

yea except stego (according to the Isle size chart), is the smallest

[alpine plover]

Bleed needs work

[grave veldt]

on the isle size chart yes

[alpine plover]

Right now it's too easy to apply in some instances
And when we're doing big numbers it's not doing enough

Unpopular opinion we need bleed stages again

[tall bronze]

[grave veldt]

I wish bleed affecting stam regen was gradual and depended on blood

[tall bronze]

Mmhm

[grave veldt]

so far any type of bleed even a small amount will tank your stam regen by a lot

[tall bronze]

Smelly

[grave veldt]

its very noticeable when standing

[alpine plover]

1st stage, negligible effects. Similar to bleed now but with some nerfs
2nd stage noticable effects. Similar to bleed now but with some buffs
3rd stage, actual damage ticks. But nothing like legacy. Just where it feels like leaks

[golden coral]

Why would that be unpopular?

[tall bronze]

MY DINO......IS LEEEEAKIIIING

[alpine plover]

becaus legacy

[golden coral]

Bleed stages was hardly the issue in legacy..

[grave veldt]

were there even bleed stages in legacy

[golden coral]

Was it an issue with the overly harsh bleed and the ease of just "bite x times, watch em die", yes

[grave veldt]

I thought it was just a specific bleed amount that slowly takes away hp

[alpine plover]

But Utah pounces should do third stages frequently
To make it feel impactful

[golden coral]

But that's not an issue with the bleed having stages, or even bleed doing damage

[tall bronze]

I just don't want the legacy situations of being unable to run away nor chase your attacker, so they just circle you and you stand there for 20 minutes slowly bleeding because you can't do anything

[alpine plover]

Brawlers cannot deal bleed past the 1st stage
Allo can deal 2nd stage frequently, but needs it's ability to pass to the third.

[golden coral]

Exactly. Maybe allow it to heal up faster, so bleed has to be added more than "once" like in legacy :p

[golden coral]

Now that sounds like an arbitrary restriction. I get the idea but.. still :p

[alpine plover]

Mmm

Not really

[tall bronze]

Bleed potential shouldn't be hard locked

[alpine plover]

Brawlers dealing heavy bleed sounds more arbitrary to me

[tall bronze]

Like I don't want it where you should be dealing more bleed, but the game magically stops you "because"

Same with like fractures

[golden coral]

Well no, but more so that they "cant", not that it's just very difficult

[tall bronze]

If my creature could logically fracture something, it should

[golden coral]

You phrased it as "cannot", implying that it's just impossible no matter what they do, which seemed a little off?

More so that the target would die of raw damage first I guess?

[alpine plover]

Well how so would it be possible

Brawlers will just outright kill their targets before dealing that amount of bleed

The damage values far outspeed the blood value

[golden coral]

Well, if a cerato finds an afk shant and just.. noms it, wouldn't it eventually add up enough bleed damage, possibly before it's chewed through the massive healthpool of the target?

[alpine plover]

Sure

[golden coral]

But yeah, if you just mean a brawler in general does more damage to the point of it's bleed being effectively useless, that's fine

[tall bronze]

Mmhm

Hard locks are smelly

[alpine plover]

Though the issue I have is that bleed is too easy for how versatile of a tool it is
At the same time, me doing heavy blood feels like it's not making enough impact
So that's why I feel these stages should be in place

[tall bronze]

Could be a character menu thing for immersion.

Like "Status: Fatal Bleeding" for when you're at/near like max bleed

Just an example

[alpine plover]

This change solves the issue of bleed being too versatile while not making enough impact at the same time

I'mma just

[tall bronze]

Hmmm....just a random idea......

But what if certain amounts of blood loss couldn't be naturally healed over time?

[golden coral]

Locked health but for blood? :p

[tall bronze]

Not sure if that'd be good or bad or whatever, just thought of it and wondered

Basically

[alpine plover]

Hmm

So basically perm nerfs like sickness?

[tall bronze]

Kinda like Barotrauma where you need bloodpacks

Not permanent, but lasting debuffs yeah

No injury should be totally permanent

[alpine plover]

Right, maybe food/hydrating should solve it

[tall bronze]

That's how you get people throwing away dinos

Yeah, something to encourage movement rather than AFKing until healed

[alpine plover]

So full food and water bars should be the only way to heal it off then

[tall bronze]

Could work

[alpine plover]

Nice suggestion

[tall bronze]

Stay healthy, heal better.

Take poor care of your dino, suffer

[pale island]

It'd be hard to actually get both at the same time, especially for carnivores, but maybe that's what the mud pools could do, like river banks stop bleed, but mud pools slowly heal max bleed damage over time

Doable but risky if you aren't paying attention or have low nutrients

[mental roost]

alt bite is what allows land gators to be a thing and succeed because it's straight up better than Deino's normal bite in everyway...

[sinful cove]

if deino got fracture on its bite instead of a flat damage buff it could probably deter stegos with head fractures because having a head fracture is annoying af

[placid reef]

you have 20 sec of healing after you reach full 95%+ water and food

[alpine plover]

Good

[sinful cove]

That suggestion only wants large herbivores to be harder but not large carnivores and then says it promotes a realistic ecosystem

Diets already make the herbi faction more shit than the carni faction rn

[alpine plover]

it's pretty easy getting your diets as herbi, it's just boring

[dusky surge]

you could say the same for juvi carni diets

[alpine plover]

diets are kinda meh atm

for juvie carnivores you just have to be lucky and find a corpse

which is likely

[sinful cove]

Carni juvies eat a frog in any dead corner of the map of their choosing to get their grow boost while herbis are pretty much forced to center which is a pvp hotspot

[dusky surge]

i despise juvi carni diets

[sinful cove]

Carnis are already way way easier to grow

And maintain since they can go anywhere and eat ai

They dont have to stick to any specific biome or location

[alpine plover]

i remember trying to get my diets as pachy which of course are in the major hotspot of center

was around 30% percent

died

[sinful cove]

I played utah while my friend played pachy and i grew effortlessly while he got killed by utahs 3 times at center trying to get coconuts and agave

[alpine plover]

pachy going like 1 kmh

[sinful cove]

Yeah its bs

[alpine plover]

this definitely makes sense

[sinful cove]

Herbis forced to center plains and always slower than their predators

Makes a lot of sense

And since carni juvis can grow anywhere most of the carnis i see at center are already adult

Carnis literally have legacy afk growth rn

[alpine plover]

i think it would be pretty nice if the coastal region was optional for pachy, there's only coconuts though so you're kinda stuck at center unless you want to grow for 5 hours

[sinful cove]

I found one coconut tree on the beach

It crashes my game if i go near it

[alpine plover]

and since you can't really get coconuts until you're 50% unless it falls you're kinda screwed

[alpine plover]

wow it's like the isle is being the isle

[sinful cove]

Basically

[alpine plover]

[dusky surge]

the tree

[sinful cove]

Also i had to go all the way north to find one mango tree that was also on the beach

[alpine plover]

pachy seems absolutely useless until it's like 50 or so percent

[sinful cove]

It really is

[dusky surge]

Pachy also seems REALLY good for a small tier once 100% too

[sinful cove]

If a predator sees your juvie pachy you may as well just take your hands off the keyboard

Slower than deino

[alpine plover]

i get that everything is forced to stay in the plains due to the lack of actual map, but spread the food out more. please

[alpine plover]

pachy can kill a carno if it gets lucky with the leg break

pachy should be able to break a carnos leg and run, not kill it

[sinful cove]

The scavenger hunt is boring as shit too. Why would I pick herbi where i have to play eye spy for food when I can go carni, eat a dead turtle and sit in a bush with what is essentially a free growth boost

And why would i want to move around as carni when i am rewarded for afk

[alpine plover]

honestly the way the map is set up, either you go carnivore and fight the massive roleplay herbi group and center, or become a herbivore and sit there for all of eternity

it's just not fun

this map is awful

[sinful cove]

I jeep my free grow boost longer as carni by afking like wtf is this design

[dusky surge]

the map is kinda shit tbh

[alpine plover]

the tropical theme is cool, but the layout is so terrible it stops actual gameplay from happening

[sinful cove]

I wish i could even find a herd i just run in to occasional pairs or trios of aggro herbis and then a shitton of cancerous carnos that i can hear spam calling from every corner of the map

[dusky surge]

i get that they don't want to force juvi carnivores to eat things they have no chance of catching, but they could just have the diet change over time. Newborns eat more AI, adults eat more dinos

[alpine plover]

i always find herds, they tend to mixpack with utahs and deinos for some reason

[sinful cove]

Yikes

[alpine plover]

it's bad

[sinful cove]

I ran in to a carno pack that was mixing with a single tenonto while growing deino and they were killing all the elite fish on shore and dragging them away and spam calling

Actual cancer

[alpine plover]

jesus

why didn't they eat the teno

[sinful cove]

Carnos never shut the fuck up

[sinful cove]

Idk because they were idiots

[alpine plover]

reminds me of rex spamming 1 call not shutting the fuck up in legacy

[sinful cove]

Yeah the rex and giga spam every 10 seconds

[alpine plover]

evrima carno brings that sort of energy

[grave veldt]

yes

[sinful cove]

Carnos were a mistake this early, just like stego and deino

[dusky surge]

its like they say, the bigger they are, the harder they call

[alpine plover]

lmao

literally

[sinful cove]

Their call is so loud and long too its disgusting

[alpine plover]

carno is like one of my favorite theropods of all time, but the players are so obnoxious

[sinful cove]

How do those morons not annoy themselves

[dusky surge]

seriously tho we need some kind of carno regulation, be it even cerato to just be like a bouncer to keep them from stepping outside their boundries

[sinful cove]

Cerato would have been a better choice than carno this early

Cerato, kentro and idk beipi or something

[alpine plover]

cerato should be able to mess up a carno in like a dense forest line

if anything i would make traversing more difficult for carno

[dusky surge]

Perhaps, but a cerato is more suited in an environment with pre-existing mid-tiers. It's simply not fast enough to catch most of our roster and relies more on bullying than hunting

[alpine plover]

in dense areas at least

[sinful cove]

How fast is cerato going to be? Id expect around teno speed

[dusky surge]

most of the roster would be near uncatchable for a cera, since it has a brawler lifestyle

[alpine plover]

i wonder if they're actually going to go through with ceratorex or not

[dusky surge]

probably, which is remarkably slow for an animal its size. It's sort of like the pachy of pseudo-mids, shockingly slow for size but makes up for it in being a fucking nightmare to tussle with

[alpine plover]

iirc cera is like 1.3 tons, not very large

[grave veldt]

cerato vs pachy

[alpine plover]

poor cera

[dusky surge]

im not against ceratorex at this juncture, as long as that ceratorex is evadable and stays within the limits of its size tier. A rex-style animal will tide over rex fanboys till the actual king rocks up

[alpine plover]

i also like the idea of bleeder cera

[dusky surge]

nothing like legacy ceratorex for example

[sinful cove]

Wouldn’t nind cerato and tenonto being pretty evenly matched brawlers if their speeds match

Would be a more fun match than carno

[dusky surge]

cera is likely gonna tussle with magy more, who is slower

[alpine plover]

teno atm can mess up carno pretty easily, as it should

[sinful cove]

Yeah though fighting carnos is boring

Since they just run around like idiots

And spam call

[dusky surge]

which begs the question, how does cera fare against teno? Is it favoured or unfavoured?

[alpine plover]

imo i think cera should have the advantage

[sinful cove]

I guess it would depend on the situation and if they make cera faster or slower

[alpine plover]

but thats probably my bias

[sinful cove]

Because whoever is faster shouldnt have the melee advantage in the same tier

[dusky surge]

cera having decent bleed is honestly fine for it, since it likely won't have fracture, so bleed would make a good deterrent

also just look at the thing's teeth

[alpine plover]

if you look at ceras teeth, yeah it makes sense for it to do a lot of bleed

[grave veldt]

would make more sense for cera to be faster then teno

[dusky surge]

i guess, but not much so

cera should be something that has a size that deceives the attacker

it has been compared to the honey badger

which, despite being a pretty small animal, will actively fight anything that tries to fuck with it, regardless of size

[grave veldt]

honestly to me i dont rly mind either way

whoever is slower tho should hold the brawler advantage

[spare badger]

Cerato should probably win, but just slightly. It will probably get trounced by a few tail slam stuns, but it should have high damage and bleed. The 2 shouldn't really need to worry about each other.

Teno should be slightly faster

In water and on land

[grave veldt]

i still dont see how cera wins tho just for the fact that because cera is 1.3 tons a tail slam would be devastating to it

4 body slams would kill one

and it'll play the full animation not even the stun

[spare badger]

True
But
You can run from tenos
Cause they can't exactly chase you
Cause they have shit running stam and backwards attacks
They could easily make cera faster

[placid reef]

well they go for the family jeweles, can cera do that /s

[ocean wagon]

I wished they would give us the size for cera smh

[ocean wagon]

That’s the confirmed size for it? I saw charts ranging from 970kgs to 1200kgs

[stiff zephyr]

i think so? i mean carno and utah sizes/weight add up to what they are like in game rn

[placid reef]

smth like that, they might change but wont stray much from what nova included in his charts

[ocean wagon]

Hmm, I’ve explained before why honey badger cera is a bad idea, but I’m still confused about how cera will actually be able to defend itself from carno effectively

The weight difference is a lot, even if we get 1300kg cera

[placid reef]

it has power and agility for one, and biome difference

carno has speed and bulk on the contrast

[ocean wagon]

Unless ceras ablility gives it some sort of stun to whatever it’s attacking

[placid reef]

also cera looks to be a brawler so not someone carno wants to fuck with

like cera would have a similar idea to utah, punches above its weight class

[ocean wagon]

From my experience from playing carno unless you’re playing in the forest where there’s 1000 fallen trees, there’s no real difference to battles. Also, unless they give cera some sort of mind blowing damage, do you think It’ll be enough to bypass the carnos bulk

[placid reef]

cera could very well get double the damage of carno, so like 290+, plus cera is gonna like closer to water and forests compared to the exclusive plains of carno, so cera might have the same idea behind teno, forest/ water

[ocean wagon]

Well yeah, only reason I didn’t take water into account is because carnos can just use their charge and zoom through a river

[placid reef]

ye but cera will be a better swimmer seeing a lot of water in its concept art, one hunting a small deino, running from an allo in water and one taking a bath ig

this is the one im reffering to

[ocean wagon]

Yeah cera having a better swim speed should be good in terms of escaping, but limiting cerato to rivers would be ehhhh. Also a double the bite force of carno would be nightmare fuel for tenos

Cera is on the more speedy side of the carnivorous roster

[dusky surge]

im gonna be honest, based on what they've said, cera probably not going to be speed

[ocean wagon]

I would kind of prefer it to have its relative speed of legacy, faster than allo but slower than dilo and utah

If we made cera a slow Dino, the mid tier carnivores would smack it around

[dusky surge]

if cera has high swim speed and is meant to be a brawler that steals food, it's going to be slower than most. High swim speed is usually a way to get away from land animals, we can even see it swimming away from an angry allo in the concept art

[ocean wagon]

But that’s limiting cerato to rivers and water sources still, hoping that things will die their at rivers and not get eaten by deino, spino, or sucho

And at that point I’d rather just play those three over cera

[dusky surge]

cera will def outspeed those three

i see cera as more of teno speed

[ocean wagon]

The phrase “slower than most” is a little to vague imo. Because if it’s around teno speed, then it shouldn’t have high swim speed too because I’m pretty sure teno will be faster than most of the dangerous solo carnivores

Basically anything that’s allo sized or larger would be to slow to catch it

So why would it need high swim speed too

[dusky surge]

teno is actually apparently the fastest quadruped

[ocean wagon]

Yes

And I don’t see anything larger than a allo catching a teno

[dusky surge]

then perhaps teno faster than cera faster than magy faster than allo?

[ocean wagon]

Wait-

I thought magy being faster than allo was a joke

[dusky surge]

idk man

i just do the QA

[ocean wagon]

But back to cera, maybe that could work? But unfortunately we don’t know the speed of allo compared to teno

Because what if teno isn’t that much faster than allo?

Just fast enough to escape

But not completely speed blitz

[dusky surge]

allo will probs also have lower stam

[placid reef]

stam also enters the "fast" discussion, or at least it should be more, i just see many focusing on speed alone

[ocean wagon]

I would hope allo has decent stam though? It’s ability Is a grapple, no?

[dusky surge]

allo is also ambush tho, ambushes are better at bursts of speed rather than endurance hunting

[ocean wagon]

I see allo more of a generalist hunter though.

It’s equipped to hunt sauropods, stego, and small tiers

[placid reef]

not like any of those (stego and sauropods) are outrunning it

[ocean wagon]

No but it is smaller than both, and in order to hunter it, it would need the stamina to keep up a hunt

[alpine plover]

@primal dove Good bleed suggestion, but the issue I find is that the earlier stages still have too much versatility

It'd still be too much of a tool that most brawlers could tip the scales in modes of combat

[primal dove]

yea, that's kinda tricky

maybe brawlers should inflict less bleed bc they have decent stats overall already?

pounce for example could instantly trigger the dmg increase which would normally happen at 50% blood loss

[dusky surge]

brawlers are often slower than other animals as a downside tho

[primal dove]

so smth. like a brawler is cera right?

[dusky surge]

teno is a brawler we current have in the game

same as pachy

they're slow but brutal when approached

[keen plover]

Also allo seems to be getting a relatively fast trot (WIP, and it could be slower than what we perceive from video), so having very high stam isn't required

I could see allo getting like 50-75 seconds of stam imo

[spare badger]

Because cera will probably be living in jungles and swamps I doubt carno will be a problem for it because it won't be able to line up a charge and isn't agile or strong enough to tangle with it.
Teno v cera can go either way. But because teno is heavier, it'll knock cera over, so cera should be a bit faster and have better running stamina (which is easy since teno has like none)
Magy will very likely be slower than teno and cera, but it should be getting stuns and fracture to deal with Allo and carno, essentially being a pachy/teno hybrid. It would also live in the same environment as cera, so probably would get a decent swim speed as well

[keen plover]

Fractures, sure. But I don't think magy should be able to stun an allo all that well. Also if it deals fractures and stuns to deal with an allo, then what would its matchup be against cerato?

[sinful cove]

Magy should die