balance-feedback-discussion

[placid reef]

same idea so i can see the confusion

[spare badger]

I really want them to put in sucho already

[wheat field]

What do you realistically think comes 1st sucho or allo

[spare badger]

Sucho is basically confirmed

They said they are Adding it after.all of the 'inhabitants'

Allo they said is far off

[wheat field]

Unfortunate

Im a bit of an allo main

[spare badger]

Allo wouldn't have enough food to be in the game even in the inhabitants list

[wheat field]

True.

What do you think of deino’s state of balance with diets

[spare badger]

Eh

Deino came out too early

[wheat field]

Same with stego tbh

2 Dinos that are fairly unkillable in a midtier-smalltier roster

[spare badger]

Sucho and kentro would fit much better

[wheat field]

Agreed. I can only imagine how fucked the roster will be with Rex AI on the roadmap

[spare badger]

The AI is so bad probably no problem

[wheat field]

Yeah but considering how the AI is aggro af and chases long distance and rex can break trees as it runs

[spare badger]

The rest would be z walking in zig zags and wouldn't react well

[spare badger]

Rex has no stamina tho

It's an ambush predator

[unborn iris]

Ai has infinite stamina 🤣

[wheat field]

Im wondering if ambush will ever be brought back for specific dinos or something similar to it if you are in a specific environment like behind a bush or something

[slim dragon]

I hope not

If anything, you could have sprinting speed tied to stamina
So if you run with full stamina you go faster for a short time
It's like ambush, but it makes sense

[wheat field]

Kinda like that adrenaline mechanic that was suggested awhile back for herbis?

[spare badger]

Most likely not

[spare badger]

Those mechanics all sound bad
Like comeback mechanics in smash bros and other fighting games
Nobody likes them

[spare badger]

And also would work with herbs

[unborn iris]

It would make sense for certain dinos to have a temp speed boost. An ability that drained a decent amount of stam but couldn't be used very often.

[wheat field]

Im wondering how ambush preds are gonna fit in if they have no ability to become faster than their slow selves

[spare badger]

Rex is fast but has no stam
That's one way

[wheat field]

Like deino is slow but has lunge. What is a rex gonna do; sit in a bush and hope to god something comes close enough?

Rex ain’t fast

[spare badger]

Rex is oddly quick when running

[wheat field]

Isn’t the fastest it can go like 30mph

[spare badger]

Unless that was ambush speed
I never actually played rex

[slim dragon]

That's the best part

[wheat field]

Irl rex went 17-25mph and Isle rex when in ambush goes like 40mph

[spare badger]

Keep in mind that rex usually ate ankys and trikes
And edmontos who are the only ones faster than the rex

[wheat field]

Which surprises me considering rex would literally break its fucking legs if it went faster than 28

[spare badger]

So it doesn't need speed

[wheat field]

Rex’s passive is breaking down trees right?

[spare badger]

All big creatures

Depending on the size of the trees
Anything from a sucho or acro to a brachi
Depends on the tree

[wheat field]

I imagine redwoods would be invulnerable

[spare badger]

Most likely

[placid reef]

brachi...

[spare badger]

They're pretty large

[spare badger]

?

[placid reef]

brachi could maybe alter them a bit

[spare badger]

Perhaps

[placid reef]

i just cant wait for the new map

[wheat field]

Jace is said to rework it right?

[placid reef]

afaik yes, but they are also plannijng on new maps entierly

would love if the maps become part of rotations and we dino rotaions according to each map as a theme

[hollow canyon]

Not true

[wheat field]

Which part

[hollow canyon]

The Isle Rex in ambush going like 40mph

it goes 42km/h

which is incidentally around 25mph

not that Rex could go that fast irl based on the current consensus but still

[wheat field]

Preciate it always nice to have corrections

[hollow canyon]

Irl Rex is estimated to have been able to move ("powerwalk" - it couldn't run at its size) at 23km/h maybe 27km/h for the largest specimens(the so called robust morph e.g. Sue, Scotty, Victoria and Trix)

The more gracile morph is estimated to have been able to travel at a speed of 34km/h

That is roughly 21-22mph for the fastest Rexes

of course the juvenile Rexes moved much, much faster(very likely some of the fastest dinosaurs we know of)

[primal dove]

Didn´t know rex was an endurance hunter lol

[hollow canyon]

It kind of was one but at the same time - it's not like it had too many things it had to be running after in its ecosystem.

[primal dove]

yea

[hollow canyon]

This animal was adapted to killing heavily armoured herbivores it coexisted with and those animals generally weren't all that good at running.

[placid reef]

well, if he doesnt kill you from the start his powerwalk will

[ocean wagon]

@jagged heart I agree to an extent. The problem was that carno had a brain dead spammable bite that required 0 skill. But its current bite force damage isnt that much of a different

[jagged heart]

Id only prefer its bite force be returned back to normal considering this Carno is literally weaker than Legacy Carno now if you think about it

[dusky surge]

hard disagree with that notion

[ocean wagon]

^^^^

unpopular opinion, legacy carno was pretty good

[jagged heart]

you only disagree because the playables we have now are very limited

Legacy Carno was very balanced

Carno would be far from strong with more carnivores in the game

it just seems strong at the moment

but instead of nerfing a bite that can be spammed why not leave its bite force alone and just make it to where it cant be spammed so much?

[dusky surge]

They did reduce the bite rate

[hollow canyon]

Yeah, Carno got just about everything nerfed(although the biteforce nerf is mainly cosmetic and only affects the Tenonto match up in a minor way).

[ocean wagon]

yeah i dont see a reason to buff it back to 200

[hollow canyon]

The biteforce nerf is probably the most baffling one - it doesn't really change any of its match ups too much(or at all)

To be honest - neither do I

Carno's biteforce being 175 or 200 changes pretty much nothing about it

I'm pretty sure the only reason it got nerfed was so that the devs could say "see? we did something about it"

it has no real impact on the game

it's all the other stuff that they did with this animal that is the issue.

Although it is still a bit funny that Carno's damage was halved since the days it had a 50/50 match up against Tenonto, while Tenonto's main damage-dealing tool remained at the same level damage output.

[spare badger]

charge is still funky

A teno slam should beat it out cause range but that doesn't happen

[dusky surge]

Honestly, having a lower bite force means it can widen the gap between small mid-tiers like carnos and larger animals

[grave veldt]

remember when bite was 350

[dusky surge]

yea

that was absurd

deino having not even double a carno's biteforce was fuckin' stupid

[hollow canyon]

Meanwhile Tenonto's tailslam dealing even more damage

[spare badger]

it does?

[hollow canyon]

Yeah

Tenonto's tailslam right now does more damage than that old Carno bite, the only time its damage went below that value was on those previous patches during the MT.

[spare badger]

how much damage did it do in 3.5 vers. now? I don't remember the numbers

[alpine plover]

well in fairness everything was also better back then, and its matchups were relatively the same except a group of coordinated carnos could kill a stego and thats much more difficult now

[hollow canyon]

Same as now - 360N

It's done that much damage since Evrima's launch - matter of fact at the time its damage was actually written down in its character sheet instead of its biteforce.

[spare badger]

Well it was drastically nerfed at one point right?
Did they just revert that then?

Cause it used to one shot utahs

[hollow canyon]

They reverted the nerf in the last patch yes - it's been heavily nerfed until now from the beginning of the MT

It's damage went down by some 30% - from 360N down to 250N

I personally think it should be at around 300-310N

that would mean it would 4shot Carno with headshots or 6shot it with bodyshots

Carno on the other hand would 10shot a Tenonto

...or 6shot it with headshots

I'd also buff Utah's hp up to 500 or at least 480 to make it impossible for Tenonto to oneshot a Utah(the Utah should be dead regardless if it gets CCed but in this case the Utah pack could potentially try to distract the Tenonto to save their fallen comrade)

Assuming that Utah gets buffed up to 500kg, Pachy should go up to 510kg not to get pinned since the devs/the community don't want it to be pinnable

with those changes I think the game would be much better balanced than what we have now

[spare badger]

Yes

Teno still f'd if it runs into more than one carno at centre
It's not swampy enough there for it to swim away

Can't really balance carno packs tho

[sinful cove]

unfortunately very hard to balance less populated animals around dealing with the inevitable carnivore megapacks that always end up happening

especially since balance should be done on a 1v1 basis but its hard. its uncommon to just see a lone carno, but buffing animals to deal with the regular packs also screws over the players who do go solo and makes them less viable on their own

[wise sparrow]

The game should be really fun but people just prioritize ruining it. Just look at Bob.

[sinful cove]

tenonto utterly shitstomping a carno makes sense for the environment of the game where there are packs of 5+ carnos running around in every end of the map but it makes things harder for solo carnos

yeah the megapackers and mixpackers and all that other garbage ruin it for the people who just want to play the game fairly

[wise sparrow]

I mean last I played carno I charged the teno ran a fair distance and then snuck over to ambush again

Worked for me at least

[sinful cove]

carnos can succeed right now yeah

they atill got megapacks all over the place too

overpopulous plague of an animal

they shoulds done cerato first

[wise sparrow]

Cause a lot of people just suck at the game so they need an army to take on a sub teno

[sinful cove]

pouring over the map spam broadcastig and wiping everything in sight but if one gets dunked on by an herbi they cry to balance feedback

ive watched carnos take a lot of time to hunt a single juv pachy, kill it, broadcast and leave without eating

see a lot of dirt as ptera

carnos are just a disease rn

[wise sparrow]

Fuckin hell...

[sinful cove]

like those failures spent a good 10-12 min trying to get the juv pachy

clearly they have it pretty easy if they can divert time to do that

[wise sparrow]

I'd be laughing my ass off if I was the pachy

[sinful cove]

yeah itd be funny but also infuriating because like

thy probably just want to play the game

i cant even bring myself to kfs them and i love to kfs juvies like an asshole

but the carnos doin it more than enough

[wise sparrow]

Carnos playerbase will dump once allo comes out and becomes the new plague

[sinful cove]

yeah theyre just legacy rex mains flocking to what ever uncontested predator pops up

all the same people form legacy who played giga on beaches and killed fresh spawns after afk growing in a corner of the map

[placid reef]

imagine if rex doesnt become the sole best playable and they godforbid have competition

[sinful cove]

Honestly rex isnt even the most busted in legacy lol

Rex simps gonna be salty if they cant facetank a trike like legacy though

[placid reef]

i cant wait for apexes to die to herbis and other carnis, the feedback chats will be pure gold

[sinful cove]

“I don't automatically get a free win in any fight just for picking rex? Buff rex immediately this is absurd”

[placid reef]

maybe for once they will learn something lol

[wise sparrow]

I believe utahs will be amazing apex hunters iirc

[placid reef]

depends on some thing, but i can see that

[wise sparrow]

Nice big body to pounce

To slow to catch low stam utahs

[frosty heron]

The issue with Legacy Rex wasnt the Rex itself but the Trike being so bad

[wise sparrow]

Rex was the most broken thing in the game

[frosty heron]

Because you actually needed some knowledge agaisnt other dinos , non official ones specially

[frosty heron]

It isnt

Its just very good, because it has the leg break

[wise sparrow]

One bite literally fucked anything and the weight system made them untouchable

[frosty heron]

But theres far more busted dinos than Rexes in their tier

[wise sparrow]

Giga and rex would be better off removed

[wise sparrow]

It was literally just point and click

[frosty heron]

I just killed a Rex as Cera today , theyre def not untouchable, but im not discussing that here as this thread its for Evrima

[wise sparrow]

With tail riding? If so your point is irrelevant

[frosty heron]

Not sure how much time you spent on Legacy but that isnt true

Well, it is partially true but thats all dinos on Legacy

Not only Rex

[wise sparrow]

Rex was so played cause it was the most braindead playable

[hollow canyon]

This ^ The devs need to find a way to prevent people from overpacking like crazy.

It's literally ruining the game

[hollow canyon]

It really wasn't

[placid reef]

i mean with 56+ playables + humans theres only so many you can pick in a 100 server

[hollow canyon]

Rex had a number of clear limitations

[placid reef]

prob increasing server sizes and doing rotations maybe

[wise sparrow]

The little skill rex had with ambushing was removed with the fact that bo one did it cause rex just ran slower animals down

[sinful cove]

Yeah trike was trash. Surprisingly rex was the least unbalanced of the three survival apexes

[hollow canyon]

There were like 4 animals slower than Rex in the game - Trike, Giga, Sucho and Dibble

Trike was trash

Well... it wasn't quite trash but it was pretty bad

for a 6h animal

[wise sparrow]

Of course the apex herbivore was the shit one

[hollow canyon]

It was getting dumpstered by a Rex with ease

[sinful cove]

Yeah rex mains got trike nerfed to trash in legacy

Giga vs trike was basicaly a free win for giga as well

Giga also solos camara with ease

[frosty heron]

Trike was only good against mid tiers, but thats sad considering its heavier and tankier than Gigas and Rexes

[hollow canyon]

Idk about that - Trike generally fared against Rex really badly aside from a single patch where Rex lost its %damage on bite

[wise sparrow]

Hmmm where did we see this before? (Cough cough teno)

[hollow canyon]

Giga vs Trike was Giga favoured but nowhere near as much as Rex vs Trike

I've won against Gigas on multiple occasions as a Trike

[frosty heron]

As Rex main myself I just see Trikes bitting the dust on Legacy most of the time

[sinful cove]

Its one of the reasons i have little faith in isle balance decisions. The same dev decision making from legacy

[hollow canyon]

against Rex I've won only a couple of times

[frosty heron]

Probably due to hit registration or just the Rex was bad

[hollow canyon]

it was the latter one

[sinful cove]

Trikes only win in legacy if the giga or rex was a. A conplete sped or B. Already wounded

[hollow canyon]

I was doublegoring a Rex vs his singlebites

Giga was winnable, it was hard but doable

[frosty heron]

Then it makes sense

[hollow canyon]

Rex was absolutely not winnable unless Rex was bad

vs Giga you just had to land more hits on it than it does on you

which is doable since you have a more stocky body and a higher attack speed

[sinful cove]

All giga bas to do is trade hits and then walk around until the trike bleeds out because giga is more durable somehow and has far superior mobility

[hollow canyon]

You can't allow a Giga to trade evenly with you when you're a Trike

if it gets to land one bite for one gore then you're going to lose

but Giga is much longer than you are and has a lower attack rate

[sinful cove]

Giga also kills camara with ease even if the camara is smart enough not to stomp

[hollow canyon]

I've done it against Gigas multiple times

Camara is not a survival animal

it's not balanced - it also dumpsters Rex hard

[frosty heron]

Problem also is , as soon as you succesfully bait a Stomp, its a free win

[hollow canyon]

like there's nothing that a Rex can do against one that really wants it dead

[sinful cove]

Camara should dumpster rex. Its strength is why im also comparing it to giga because giga fodderizes it

[hollow canyon]

When I say that it dumpsters it I mean that I can just follow Rex until Rex runs out of steam and kill it

[sinful cove]

Camara shouldnt be hunting rexes but it should kick its ass honestly

[hollow canyon]

Cama regenerates stamina

it's a hard counter to Rex and on some pvp-oriented servers where I've played people would literally go Cama just to counter Rexes

[sinful cove]

It shouldnt be like theri and allo which is also another example of a crazy sandbox dino curbstompong a survival one

[hollow canyon]

Agreed but that's not how it worked unfortunately

[sinful cove]

Those rexes should get some giga backup lol

Camara stands 0 chance

[wise sparrow]

Theri was terrifying

[hollow canyon]

Yea it wasn't a herbi vs carni fight though

just large groups of players going at it

with different dinosaurs

[sinful cove]

Theri just karate chops everything to death

Imagine if it also did bleed

[frosty heron]

Best way to deal with Rexes with other dinos like Gigas its to sucess on ambushing their backs, and thats hard with Giga being so big

[hollow canyon]

Giga kills a Cama but it takes a long time

[hollow canyon]

On alt turn the Rex can kill a Giga that does it

Gigas ambush doesn't last long enough to let it disengage from a Rex

Rex just runs it down and kills it

[wise sparrow]

Tail riding was the most boring unskilled meta that shouldn'tve existed

[hollow canyon]

of course barely any Rex knows that and they typically play defensively after getting bitten which gets them killed

[frosty heron]

I wasnt counting alt turn but yeah

[hollow canyon]

on no alt yea you can just ride a Rex

While we're mentioning the non-survival ones there's also Spino which just fodderises Trikes

This thing could easily 1v2 Trikes if not 1v3 them

Literally do the same thing Gigas does while having the advantage of healing up 100 bleed in 4 minutes

It's like Giga on steroids

[frosty heron]

Yeah and it was overall better against everything including mid tiers

[hollow canyon]

yea Spino was just kind of broken

its ambush was as fast as that of a Rex and lasted longer than Giga's ambush

[barren oracle]

Legacy balance bad yes

[hollow canyon]

Not really, it's the sandbox animals that were not balanced properly. Survival ones just needed slight tinkering for a couple of animals.

[barren oracle]

Sorry rephrase that- legacy combat and balance bad

[grave veldt]

teno can do 10 tail slams only

[primal dove]

hmm ok, that's good, tested it out as a sub adult, first time playing teno mb

[ocean wagon]

Yeah Rex was pretty cracked in legacy but I’m surprised to see that no one is talking about Utah though

It could solo majority if not all the survival creatures

[grave veldt]

all g

it is 18 for kick tho thats why its best to stun with a kick and then tail slam for max dmg output

[primal dove]

btw to every dipshit that reacted with the salt emote. I'm not saying nerf teno into the ground I'm just saying it should have a weakness u can play around. Actually enjoying playing teno.

2 calling baby pachies, lining them up to kill them was the best experience I got from this update

[dry badger]

Be civil please. There's no reason to name call. Your opinion is out to the public, you should expect public responses.

[cedar shore]

@jagged heart Suggestions are weird lol. I suggested the exact same thing and got a lot of upvotes

[jagged heart]

Because the isle community has no brain and are crybabies

[sinful cove]

Even stuff like stam regen feels the same as live when i have the 130% buffs

Might not be but it feels that way

[alpine plover]

@stiff turret in what way tho

[barren oracle]

Man got shitstomped as a carno for the first time in his life

[alpine plover]

Welp

Looks like it's time to learn around a thing called "baiting"

You want genuine advice?
Teno is not faster than you if you are a predator

Stay in a range where you can just get away easily if the Teno charges you

But close enough to move in for a bite if the Teno makes a mistaken attack

It's the Teno's job to hold their nerve and time their attacks patiently

What you can do is spook them, make feints and try to make them think you're going in by using agility, swerving in and out

You can instigate an attack by nipping their tail and moving your body away quickly as well

The more stam a teno spends, the more desperate the situation becomes, which is why you don't have to immediately brawl them to death in short 2 min fights

The longer a fight goes on, the more favorable it is for you, as bleed can tilt the odds slightly as well

A Teno with no stam is a crippled Teno

Other than the Carno v Teno matchup

Utah is still in a shit spot, so it might feel fucked in the teno matchup when it's really the fault of the utah's viability

[hot lintel]

"Noooo, I just ran head first into a Teno's ass and I died, it's so op please nerf!!!!" - Carno players.

[alpine plover]

it can be really hard to hit terrestrial creatures as a pteranodon so I say make pteranodon 1-2 shot every creature in the game like if you agree!

[sinful cove]

sounds incredibly well balanced I think pteranodons should also be able to see through all foliage because it is a mild nuisance to fly in the forest

[alpine plover]

yeah but also fishing is really hard so it should be able to pick up fish at the waters edge but not have to worry about deino because it could be scary so let it see through water

[placid reef]

you realise river water is very far from transparent, right? you cant see anything inside unless they are right under the surface

[alpine plover]

yeah I mean let pteranodon see is really clearly so it doesn't have to worry about deinos

because it would be really scary

[sinful cove]

yeah but pteranodon eats fish so he should have super fish vision and maybe it should be able to slap a deino in the face with its wing and stun it for 8 seconds

[alpine plover]

but also about deino some people don't have the time to grow it and that's really upsetting for some people so they should make deino grow quicker and also let it swim faster because it is too slow

[sinful cove]

deino needs a land speed increase too sometimes i see a carno and i want to kill it but it just runs away too fast i think deino could use a small run speed buff to 60kmh

[placid reef]

deino is the fastest swimmer in the game

[hot lintel]

That's a dumb fucking comparison because it's actually really easy to hit things as a Ptera, just takes practice. Plus, unlike Teno, the bird actually has the speed to chase you.

[placid reef]

the birds that hunt fish while flying usually do so in lakes, while the ones that do for rivers (with the exception of shallow rivers) do on land

[pale island]

I think you managed to not get the joke three times in a row

[barren oracle]

^

[vagrant mural]

Bob bob bob

[alpine plover]

no every time I do it I die

[alpine plover]

yeah but it should go faster

[placid reef]

why, its already the fastest and most likely will remain the fastest

[vagrant mural]

No no, he’s got a point

Why shouldn’t it go faster?

[alpine plover]

yeah make it go really fast

it should be faster in the water than carno on land

[sinful cove]

i think that if a ptera flies at full speed in to any dinosaur it should impale through them in a oneshot hit like the goku vs king piccolo

[sinful cove]

another deeback from somebody who wants herbis to be nothing but fodder

[alpine plover]

they should also nerf apato's thick hide specially it is so broken

[sinful cove]

Put these on stego's thagomizers so he cant hurt the poor carnos and utahs who try to bumrush it

[spare badger]

Here we go
I'm seeing the NeRf ThE hErBiVoReS mAkE tHeM fReE fOoD

Again

[sinful cove]

Yeah its pretty pathetic

[spare badger]

Just because they get eaten doesn't mean they are weak as hell

There's a reason that most hunts fail
And why ambush hunting is so prevalent

And why animals go for weak and young individuals

[sinful cove]

These people simp too much for JP where the carnivores run in and oneshot everything regardless of size differences

[spare badger]

I know

In JWE2 the herbivores can't fight back most of the time

[alpine plover]

but carno is so big and cool i think it should be equal with a stego because it should be slow while carno is fast

[sinful cove]

In jwe the shitraptors run in and kill a large sauropod in 5 seconds

[sinful cove]

Give carno a gun

[spare badger]

And raptors are OP
In the deleted JP3 scene 20 raptors took on a spino and 12 died
In game 4 can kill one easy
People simp for carnivores and especially raptors thanks to JP...

[placid reef]

brachi dies to velo in 3 sec

[spare badger]

So bs

[sinful cove]

Also all the nature docs where they cherrypick predator victories Doesnt help much

[spare badger]

Edmontosaurus gets flung around like a ragdoll when it should be able to easily wreck a rex
It's sad

[placid reef]

man idk, the ones i saw showed some good amount of carnis getting fucked

[sinful cove]

Some of them do

[spare badger]

In JWE2?

[alpine plover]

they should also nerf how much stam pachy's skid takes

[spare badger]

Rarely
All the herbivore stats in that game are too low

[placid reef]

no, the nature docs i watched

[sinful cove]

A lot of the big ones just show the lions absolutely demolishing a buffalo and skip over buffalo performing open surgery on a lion with its face

[spare badger]

Nature docs show herbis wrecking carnis
But they cherry pick most of the time to show them in a successful hunt

[sinful cove]

Theres a big false narrative that all zebras and antelope do is run and die and they never return fire

[spare badger]

Have you seen zebras? They are ridiculous

[alpine plover]

haha zebra go brrr on lion's jaw

[sinful cove]

Zebras are mean

[spare badger]

They're angrier than a donkey

[sinful cove]

Herbivores can be mean as fuck even deer who have a rep for just running around and getting hit by cars

[spare badger]

They will forcefully abort others kids

[sinful cove]

Oh yeah there was a zebra trying to drown another zebras foal in a vid i think

Theyre savages lol

[spare badger]

Also
Camels
There's this video of a camel biting a donkey and paralysing it

[barren oracle]

The only one they fear; Is you

[sinful cove]

Also kangaroos will square up just to flex

Same with elephants

Theyll just run over and kos something to show off to their pals

[barren oracle]

Indorex Intensifies

[barren oracle]

(better have gotten that reference)

[sinful cove]

Doom right

[barren oracle]

Yeash

[spare badger]

Doom music intesifies

10/10 study music

[barren oracle]

You gotta write a 10000 word essay in 4 minutes? no sweat

[spare badger]

It works tho

[sinful cove]

Camels have scary ass teeth

Hell tf no

Demon

[barren oracle]

Camel bouta slaughter the whole desert

[sinful cove]

Designed to kos

[barren oracle]

Designed to kill my guy

[spare badger]

They eat spiky cacti and those teeth have a good secondary purpose

[sinful cove]

Secondary purpose: paralyze some donkey

Damn just found the video

[placid reef]

they like to swim too

[sinful cove]

The camel straight up locks on to it and shakes it like a bear lmao

Absolute predator

[sinful cove]

Theyll bait other animals in to water and then drown the mfers

[primal dove]

camels are such chads holy moly

[spare badger]

It was a very horny donkey apparently

[grave veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/beasts-of-bermuda-kaperoo-the-isle-path-of-titans-gif-23526654

[alpine plover]

https://tenor.com/view/beasts-of-bermuda-the-isle-kaperoo-path-of-titans-gif-23526684

[grave veldt]

'herbivores cant even attack"

https://tenor.com/view/the-isle-kaperoo-path-of-titans-beasts-of-bermuda-gif-23720633

[alpine plover]

Bruh it fucking died holy shit

[sinful cove]

Remember that hippo that swam across a river to kos a gazelle and then leave

[alpine plover]

Didn't happen, herbivores aren't aggressive

[grave veldt]

^

herbivores dont even have attacks

[alpine plover]

Stegos tail swing is actually a myth it's just that the predator dies of cringe due to the herbivore having the audacity of not sitting down immediately and dying

[grave veldt]

people keep talking about teno tail slam which isnt possible because herbivores dont attack

[alpine plover]

How do you buff something that isn't there

[grave veldt]

exactly

[alpine plover]

https://tenor.com/view/the-isle-kaperoo-path-of-titans-beasts-of-bermuda-gif-23528257

found footage of pachy player spotting a baby stego

[primal dove]

https://tenor.com/view/plantbased-openied-herbivore-vegan-nopalmoil-gif-15898156

[alpine plover]

https://tenor.com/view/attack-the-pet-collective-chicken-kick-strike-gif-18191573

[primal dove]

https://tenor.com/view/veggiesaurus-lex-veggie-vegetarian-jurassic-park-gif-20879288

E N O U G H !

[alpine plover]

enough of what

[primal dove]

bullying the herbivores, allthough they feel no pain or even know what it is

[alpine plover]

we are not shaming, we are showing their strengths

[primal dove]

https://tenor.com/view/funny-gif-23169978

[alpine plover]

at least the strengths from our dreams because herbivores dont attack

[primal dove]

they actually can't until the carnivore attacks them, read the rules

[alpine plover]

BoB rule servers when Pachy gets updated to eat meat
https://tenor.com/view/the-watcher-marvel-gif-23393096

[placid reef]

Bob do be on some LSD shit

[alpine plover]

yeah, it hella fun tho

until some 2.0 grown bitch pulls up

[vagrant mural]

In what universe ☠️

[grave veldt]

i wish it was fun

https://tenor.com/view/beasts-of-bermuda-kaperoo-gif-23694374

[pulsar ember]

@primal dove That is really dumb. Stego take 5 hours to grow, so the fact that you want them not to do any damage until half their growth makes no sense.

[sinful cove]

Carnivore main mentality

Make the slow fat juvie also incapable of deterring any of its missile speed predators

[vagrant mural]

Make it just keel over and die if it sees anything carnivorous

[sinful cove]

Attach a neon lights McDonalds sign to the end of stego's tail until it's about half grown

[pulsar ember]

lmao

[hollow canyon]

I don't think he said anything about "half growth" he said 35% which would be 1 hour 40 minutes assuming a perfect diet. Idk what can be done with animals such as Stego/Trike or even Anky for that matter to make them playable during their juvenile stages. Atm Stego definitely does too much damage and I agree that it should do less as a juvenile/hatchling however it should also probably spend less time during those stages.

The growth for these animals shouldn't be linear and they should grow out of the phase where they can't defend themselves properly relatively quickly and then spend a significantly longer time during their subadult and adult stages.

I don't think there's any other sensible fix for this. Tiny Stego dealing as much damage as it does with its measly body proportions and a tiny thagomizer looks just ridiculous but having people play as such an awful animal for a lengthy time just doesn't seem like a a good idea.

[dusky surge]

baby stego needs higher damage

it literally has no other form of defence

[hollow canyon]

it's not like it can defend itself from anything that actually cares to kill it

meanwhile it's just weird when it gets to swing that tiny thagomizer at you and takes out an enormous chunk of your health

Decrease the time spent as a juvenile by animals such as Stego, spread their diet across the map so that they aren't forced into the killzone that is the southern plain and wish the players luck

That's about the only sensible approach to animals such as trike and stego, their juvies are just bad animals by default because they are extremely defensive animals that rely on being big and doing a lot of damage which are characteristics that they simply do not have as juveniles.

[heavy fossil]

Hmm... I don't know about my thoughts on that topic. The opinions I do have will probably be unpopular as I play mostly as either a raptor, or a Pteri as the slow, lumbering pace of the stego drives me insane. As a primary Utah or Pteri player (And hypsi, the times I want to be a troll), I've noticed that even baby stegos can do some massive damage to even a half grown raptor if they're not careful.

I mean, I agree, against adults of basically any species, a baby stego is doomed, but that said, they should probably be moving in herds or hiding.... For such a high reward animal, (when it's full grown), I almost prefer the fact that it takes so long, and is so difficult to grow to adulthood, especially since they're supposed to be a top tier damage and tank.

Plus, as it was said, it looks ridiculous for such a tiny creature to do so much damage. I prefer the idea of it maintaining it's weaker damage, if only because nesting and such will come out soon enough, and then it'll be nearly impossible to get a hold of a baby stego to kill it. Right now it might feel unbalanced, but later on when the herds really start forming up, it'll be a lot more even.

That said, I do agree with the concept that growth shouldn't necessarily be linear. I like the current growth time to stage 2, but growing to stage 3 and then to full grown in any species I've played, I sort of wish would take longer.

Again, probably highly unpopular opinion, but as someone who despises the way Stegos' are currently just murder tanks, and can even go fishing for crocs, I'm just not a fan....

[primal dove]

guys

it's an apex

are u kidding me

growing it should be like the hardest thing ever

same for deino, way too easy to grow

@sinful cove

carnivore mentality do u want everyone be able to grow a stego and deathmatch at pond?

shouldn't I then have to right to say that herbivores only want to KOS stuff at oasis?

or give it an other way to survive as a juvi

but like baby stegos killing adult utahs? W H A T

[dusky surge]

i mean

it has a big fucking spike tail, regardless of age

Also stego has the same damage scaling as everyone else

It just does a TON of damage

So it does, I think, 37.5 damage when newborn

[primal dove]

what would be the problem lowering it then? Only the strongest should survive as an apex, I don't want to see 10 stegos at oasis bc they can grow them so easy

[dusky surge]

because then that's legit putting a stego at a disadvantage

every other animal has their damage reduced by the same percentile

why should stego be lower?

[primal dove]

no no no I mean for the juvi stage

adult stego should like oneshot a carno

[dusky surge]

thats what im saying

every other juvi has the same percentage of damage reduction as a juvi

except in their case, they can be faster and smaller and grow quicker

[primal dove]

yes, but as adults they aren't as threating as a stego

so it kinda balances out

[golden coral]

Honestly, before 25% (juvie?), stego should not do much damage at all. Before that growth stage, the thagomizer is just small nubs, hardly something that'll do much of anything. And a possibility could be to add fractures or knockdown/back before damage for smaller stegos. So they trade ability to keep the predator away and "wear them out" while small for outright bleeding and killing them when larger.

[alpine plover]

Should juvie stego be more speedy rather than tanky?

[primal dove]

yea

[grave veldt]

I still think you should make the Juvi time period the 25% much faster and after 25% it'll hit a slow down period and continue to grow slowly till adult

[heavy fossil]

@alpine plover It would make sense to me for them to be speedy while young. After all, they're broad, big creatures, but they also don't have the sheer mass that the adults do. I mean, look at elephants. They are still relatively fast as adults, but they are nowhere near as agile and.... well, frolic-y as the babies are; their mass as they age slows them down. I think the same should apply to big, lumbering creatures like the stego.

I still think though that the juvi grow time shouldn't necessarily be sped up, but more kept the same while the subadult and adult time periods slow down....

[sinful cove]

While its true that stego came too early, some of the reasoning in that feedback is stupid af lmao

[wise sparrow]

Just fix utah and stego will have a predator

[dusky surge]

I really dont understand why people use carno v stego matchups to prove its strong

carno sucks against big things, thats kind of the whole flaw of ir

[spare badger]

Stego isnt even on carnos diet anymore right?

[dusky surge]

no, for good reason

[spare badger]

There's always an influx of 'Stego OP' suggestions after a Pesky video

Especially cause he talked about it in his most recent one

[dusky surge]

true lmao

i get he likes carno but asking it to threaten stego is silly

[spare badger]

I like his content
But carno is not meant to kill stegos

Just not in its body plan

It's fast but not too agile
It can drift at high speeds allowing it to chase more nimble animals
But isn't agile enough to harass large dinosaurs

[sinful cove]

“If i, the fastest land animal in the game, want to attack this slow tank, I have to strategize and it only has to defend with lmb? Preposterous!”

[spare badger]

Ah yes stego bite best move in the game

Unless they changed that I haven't played stego since update 2

[sinful cove]

Opf my bad lol i had mine changed on keybind

So i got used to it

[spare badger]

Lol
Once cerato (and maybe large packs of Troodon) are in stego may be less untouchable

[sinful cove]

“There may be 500 boars and tenonto ai plus other carnos, utahs and pachy players but I HAVE to attack this stego!!1!”

Troodon may be able to cut down on the stego pop while theyre younger

[spare badger]

His argument was that hampering what a playable can do is bad
Which doesn't make much sense

[sinful cove]

And when utah is fixed to where its pounce actually works and doesnt just slide off then good utah packs can hunt adult stegs but carnos can gtfo unles the stego is afk or some shit lmao

[spare badger]

Carno can easily hunt teno
One carno was just stalking the outskirts of the swamp and killed my baby teno cause I was too small to swim away

[spare badger]

They always used to be able to
Mr D Bear excelled at it

[sinful cove]

The teno ai spamming east of swamp are annoying af too and just waiting for some carno to kill them like carnos have 0 issues with other food options

There was an issue in a previous patch where like 2 utahs destroyed stegos with relative ease and even a patch where dryos soloed stegos

[wise sparrow]

Utah vids went from boring as fuck to really interesting cause of pounce

[spare badger]

I dislike dino AI

[sinful cove]

Now utah is broken instead of busted

[spare badger]

Dino AI is not necessary

[sinful cove]

Yeah i wouldnt miss if all the teno and utah ai just vanished

[spare badger]

It's so bad too might as well not be there

[sinful cove]

They just walk in circles and broadcast

[spare badger]

Like
They one call and Z walk in circles until you kill them

And are only a threat to juvies

If it works

[sinful cove]

Theres a teno ai that is in the same spot every time im on walking in an oval pattern spamming

Shit never changes

[spare badger]

The spamming is annoying cause I think 'Oh! Another teno player maybe? We can go shitstomp carno megapacks?'
And then I find a fuckin AI

[sinful cove]

Its also so ear grating loud

Like i gotta just go away as a small because its so annoying

East of swamp is such a nice place too

Ruined by the “RUhHhHHNGHUH”

[spare badger]

Swamp is laggy cause of the spiky plants and the world border

[sinful cove]

I dont lag there personally

[spare badger]

My frames always tank from the already low 30 to like 15

I miss the 60fps

[sinful cove]

If my frames drop it isnt too noticable to me

[dusky surge]

very true

[spare badger]

The game is nice if it actually runs

[sinful cove]

Theres plenty of boar and deer idk why they need loud ass tenonto ai walking in circles

[spare badger]

Especially cause AI modern animals are on all carnivore diets

[dusky surge]

honestly, there's a ton of little balances id like to see, like for example utah getting a bleed buff to its bite and alt-bite, deino getting a biteforce buff and/or possibly fractures, pachy getting minor nerfs to turning and/or altbite, etc

[spare badger]

Is pachy that good? I haven't touched it since teno got buffed

[dusky surge]

it invalidates utahs by mere presence

[spare badger]

Wasn't that the point of pachy
Being nearly impossible for Utah to take down by itself or something like that

Like not one on one or whatever

But if it can take on groups that's too much lol

And having an above average buck

Utah needs help tho
It needs to be able to embrace it's bleeder playstyle

Bleed with ounce, keep up the pressure with bites to prevent bleed heal

[grave veldt]

Yes stego complaining

Sort of missed them tbh

[spare badger]

I found this

[grave veldt]

lol

well technically

[old crag]

The fix for Deino vs Stego is for Deino to be able to latch on to bigger prey. Not scoop them but maybe a slow tug of war mechanic. Still not ideal for one Deino to kill a stego solo but could allow a pair to effectively hunt stegos. Gives stego something to worry about instead of just trotting waste deep in water wishing a Deino would.

Also, if the stego is low on stam the Deino would be able to pull it in the water. Once the stego reaches 0 stam the pull becomes stronger from the Deino and he could actually pull a big boy in the water.

[alpine plover]

Pachy beyblades

[jade mica]

Why is everyone crying when somebody suggest a stego nerf?

Well not outright crying but downvoting or whatever it's called

[dusky surge]

because the issue is not stego is OP, it's that the roster cannot account for it (also deino is pretty weak atm)

[odd kelp]

stego needs a stam nerf or the swing needs to cost way more stam

had stegos at full sprint for a good 2-3mins and still being able to swing like 10-15 more time and still run lmfao

[dusky surge]

it already got a stam nerf

[odd kelp]

lol

well it needs it again lol

[dusky surge]

i disagree

that would make it have the worst stam in the game

which is fucked

cause its also slow as fuck

[odd kelp]

i take it you play a lot of stego

[dusky surge]

not really

stego is probably my least played animal

i prefer animals like utah

[odd kelp]

i mean from what i have seen when fighting a stego that thing has mad stam

[dusky surge]

not anymore after the most recent patch

[odd kelp]

being able to run for it's life and still be able to swing a good 10-15 times ain't right

[dusky surge]

it can run very barely longer than the speed demon that is carno

it runs for less time than 5 of the playables. It runs for longer than ptera, deino and the speed demon that is carno

[odd kelp]

well it might just be me then but 4 of us full grown carnos had a stego running non stop and had it swinging for a good 15mins and it didn't stop or sit down and never seemed to run out of stam

i mean i might just need to grow a stego and test but they seem a bit nuts

[gusty mason]

@main cave deino isnt even an apex, its a pseudoapex thats specialized in hunting land creatures 50% its weight or less. Carno is a small game hunter. They only thing supposed ti fight stego is utah in groups. That would be possible if pounce works
What i mean stego isnt op, there is just no creature ig currently that hunts it or is working right (utah). That isnt that bad cause stego cant hunt things cause its so slow

[dusky surge]

Deino is actually put in apex with stego iirc

and stego is only in apex due to absurd damage outpuit

[odd kelp]

oh would be nice if when a stego swings next to a tree the tail could get stuck the spikes that is

[dusky surge]

thats fair

[odd kelp]

and pls just give utah 60 bite force 55 just bugs me and carno i think is 177 just make it 180

[gusty mason]

current deino is never a apex lmao

[dusky surge]

current deino, sure

but both stego and deino have been nerfed for the existing roster

(imo)

[golden coral]

At the very least they have the potential to get buffs and still be realistic so there is that

[placid reef]

would love that, utah gets hindered by trees and rocks while stego can just swing trough them like its no problem

[placid reef]

not really when pachys alt attack is so effective and doesnt take much stam

[signal fable]

Just wait till Rex gets added back in

Pretty sure Rex will be the most OP thing to step into Evrima, Stego will have almost no chance against it

[barren oracle]

Nah stego stands a good chance

[placid reef]

rex is so far away, stego will be our only land apex for a while, plus stego isnt really meant to be rexes diet, that spot is more for ceratopsioan and hadrosaurs

[barren oracle]

It will get buffed when bigger creature are added

Should get buffed at least

[placid reef]

also very likely, prob just a stam increase but still good enough when rex either wont be able to run or runs very slowly

[golden coral]

No idea why you think rex would be slower? I think the only critter possibly slower than stego would be anky, most other things will most likely be noticably faster

[dusky surge]

rex is quick but will likely burn stam faster

rex's whole point is either it manages to get an attack in within the first minute or it straightup loses the hunt and has to try again later

[barren oracle]

Thagomizer

Go brrrr

I can’t imagine wanting to take a headshot from that thing

[placid reef]

i meant in corelation to every other carni, rex is pretty damn slow even with some of them geeting huge speed boots, since very likley it will be between 17-25km/h

[golden coral]

Not sure how that would compare, but I think rex will be faster than stego without doubt so

[dusky surge]

Rex being very slow and very low stam makes little sense to me

[placid reef]

prob but as stego is gonna live more or less in plains and rex would be somewhat middle ground with ambushes... but most likely stego just wont be on his diet

[dusky surge]

Rex is meant to be a short-burst ambush predator that can at least somewhat brawl with attackers

[placid reef]

personaly i'd like rex to be able to powerwalk its slower prey to death

[dusky surge]

giga

[placid reef]

fair enough...

[spare badger]

Rex will probably have a decent speed but very little stamina

Giga will have much more stamina and should be quicker just based on their builds

[dusky surge]

and based on their irl counterparts

[spare badger]

Yea
Giga will be a sauropod/ornithopod hunter, using bleed and stamina to keep them moving (shant, any sauropod, para?)

Rex will be an ambush hunter that takes on armoured herbivores and large hadrosaurs (shant, trike, anky para)

And tries to take them down with high damage fracturing bites

Should be simple enough to balance
The fossils give us all the info we need

[golden coral]

Are we basing these ideas on legacy, on "irl" or what? Cause there's potential that they work differently from that after all. Just like they sort of did way back when, so there's no saying they'll end up like that.

[spare badger]

A bit of both

Rex and Giga both did that in legacy and irl
And I think it works well

But what the hell is Acro gonna do?

[placid reef]

be faster than giga

[spare badger]

Acro obviously will eat teno

So maybe itll be partially swamp based?

[wise sparrow]

Gets instantly annihilated by a spino

[spare badger]

How will they make it's niche not just small Giga?

[spare badger]

I would say spino is too slow but then I remember it looks like a deformed jp3 rex in this game

[wise sparrow]

I know!

[spare badger]

Still want this spino

[wise sparrow]

They dont

[spare badger]

This one is much better

[wise sparrow]

Acro just shouldn't have been added in this environment

[spare badger]

Objectively

Maybe they'll make it a jungle predator then

[placid reef]

in that case nor should sucho

as its in most ways just small spino

[spare badger]

I would also say not really to that
But spinos design

It all boils down to spinos.design being so bad it conflicts with the balance of the rest of the game

[placid reef]

basically

[spare badger]

Sucho should be plenty fast enough on land
Spino should be the slowest carnivore in the game

But spinos design doesn't work and messes.eoth the rest of the ecosystem cause it's a damn spino

Spino *should be the strongest apex in the game
It should be the slowest due to its below average leg length
It would be SO EASY to balance that way

[placid reef]

why that statement? as far as we know all of the 3 main apexes might very well be equally good

[sinful cove]

Didnt dondi say rex would clap spino's cheeks

[placid reef]

dondi said many things

[sinful cove]

Rex will probably stay as the offensive brawler predator for the apexes

Probably gonna beat gigas ass too on average

[spare badger]

Giga would make sense
Spino I'm not too sure on tho

Prob be 50/50 or so

[sinful cove]

They really fucked up with the design if they wanna keep the rex>spino statement but its what was said

[wise sparrow]

Having 3 and a half apexes in one ecosystem is the dumbest thing ever

[spare badger]

It could work cause of their radically different hunting techniques and prey

[placid reef]

having humans in the same world as uthas and carnos is pretty dumb aswell but this is The Isle

[sinful cove]

Well it is modern day

[wise sparrow]

I just want rex to have to play smart to utilize fractures in its bite. Legacy was just bite and win

[signal fable]

I think the more dinos we have the better, sure there would be balancing issues, but thats why dinos should be added slowly into the game, regarding Spino vs Rex, Spino should dominate a rex in water envirement, so swampy areas and what not

[spare badger]

How does adding them slowly change anything? The point is that spinos design clashes with the balance of sucho and other pseudo apexes cause spino was said to be pretty fast for some reason

[signal fable]

Adding dinos slowly overtime would be benefitial for the balance of the game to make every dino good in something

F^*k my spelling

[placid reef]

then they release at the end a dino that goes against everything they've done to that point

[signal fable]

But thats just my opinion

Frankly that Rex vs Spino is kind of pointless as a debate, they lived on different continents anyway

And having a dino that can kill whatever it looks at is just... No

[placid reef]

but they dont in this context, they will live on the same island

[spare badger]

Not in this context

[signal fable]

Thats a fair point

[spare badger]

They're in the same game so they need to be balanced

TLDR The slower one should win
That's how balance in a game like this should work

[wise sparrow]

This roster was a do first think later thing.

They just wanted to shove a bunch of big names in the game

[placid reef]

rex on land and spino in water environment

[spare badger]

Ok now balance it with sucho and deino

And deinocheirus

Will sucho be faster than rex and spino? What will happen to the smaller dinos?

It's a cascade

[placid reef]

deino is the easiest, it should always be close to deep waters where it should win/ have better chanches thna in shallow rivers/ some form of mid deep rivers if we get those

[spare badger]

Ok deino can swim away faster and can maybe fight
How fast are we making sucho?

Or cherry?

[placid reef]

imo between them 2 they should be 50/50 in all conditions, maybe sucho a bit better in water and cherry on land, deino is the weakest in any form of water that isnt deep like current rivers and swamps, if they meet a spino that would be a bit slower than either in mid water (shallow has no affect on them nor bary) they can easily retreat on land beeing faster thna spino and deino, bary beeing even better on land but worse than all in water

[spare badger]

Then sucho will get murdered by deino in water deep enough that they both have to swim in

Cherry could work

[placid reef]

i did say it would work that way if we get midwaters, not shallows not deep, like mangroove forests or floodplains for ex, where deino would be weaker as he cant dive much and stuff like bary which would like to stay more in shallow rivers and sometimes mids, would be a great place for cherry and sucho to exist, spino beeing a inbetwen deep and mid, bary shallow-mid and cherry and sucho mids only, and ofc the obvious land speed, barry > sucho = cherry > spino > deino

[spare badger]

Didn't dondi say spino will clap deino tho

[placid reef]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

i see no way it could if the deino is in any form of deep water, more prefferably swamp deep water than river

alos i dont even see it possible for spino to be able to submerge in swamp deeps

[spare badger]

All of the spinosaurids/semi aquatics should be able to dive like deino can

[spare badger]

Did you see the development of the swamps? Some parts are as deep as 3 spinos

[placid reef]

hm, last time i've been in a swamp as a full deino it looked like it would just fit one submerged spino with no space for movement vertically, granted this was some time ago

if now they get this deep i can believe that

[spare badger]

These were the older pre deino swamps tho so they may have changed it

[placid reef]

Ye ive went into the swamp after c
they changed the map and it was at best 1 and a half spino, since our spino is massive

[spare badger]

Yea

Idk
Spino in this game is weird
Its deformed jp3 spino

Will it be stronger than rex? Who tf knows

[alpine plover]

Bruh

Ppl deadass salt reacted the Pachy alt attack adjustment? lmao

It has both stun and concussion in one attack
easy to use, and for minimal stam
while covering aoe, with a decent damage rate

[placid reef]

wait, are people saying its not broken?

[placid reef]

also dont forget it barely uses stam iirc

[alpine plover]

read in balance feedback

At least 9 people think it's fine lol

[placid reef]

and people said that pachy is weak to utah since flanks bs etc, my ass its weak, not only is utah garbage in every way rn, but pachy has the easiest alt in the world that does everything, my ass you need to keep track for all utah around you you use close to no stam to get an ability that negates all of utahs ability, and utah literally got changed to 450 so it cant pin it, fuck that shit, and some say its fine, my ass it fine

phfew... needed to let go of that one

[alpine plover]

Like

It's really not that hard to tell

All you need to do is just surface level testing

[placid reef]

they literally made utah 450 so it cant pin it, not like all of pachys kit revolves around countering utah, the dif is you dont need to time it, it just does it constantly

[alpine plover]

A utah engaging in a brawl is not feasible, the bite is too weak, the hp considerably low
And the Pachy alt attack is too strong while covering flanks so well
They're not bait-able either because of how low stam cost the attack is

The stun or concussion literally puts it out of commission or neuters it for the rest of the encounter

How is that attack weak?

It's the best of both worlds of Teno's claw and tail slam(minus the small bleed)

[placid reef]

i despise what they did with utah, i hope the other dromeosuars/ troo dont get this treatment, i might have to play austro once its out since it has the better model and might just get better treatment which is a shame since utha has the gameplay i like more, unbelievable

If raptors werent ruined for me before Evrima, now they def are

[alpine plover]

There's little a Utah can do against any Pachy

[placid reef]

theres nothing it can do

it cant pin so thne it gest countered by the dozin ways to get rid of pounce, plus buck is crazy good again, it has an alt that has no risk and all reward and can also charghe a headbut to make sure you're dead

also that pounce doesnt even work rn that well

[alpine plover]

Can't pin, harder tp pounce because of smaller hitbox, pounce might not work, missing the pounce dooms it. Alt attack covers flanks at all times with little punishment, and the headbutt murders it

[placid reef]

also the fact they have the same growth time

[alpine plover]

What counterplay is there exactly?

[placid reef]

NOTHING

its unbelievable how many otpions there are to counter pounce, and yet they make it lighter just so it cant pin smth that already would dominate it even then

[alpine plover]

Like damn, cool if they want to keep the alt attack this strong

But you gotta compensate that with higher stam costs

[placid reef]

i have to find the list of all of pounce counters that arent for pins, hol up

https://discordapp.com/channels/401464048610312193/885026544689492018/909488483373039656 closest thing i can find but thats not even close to lal of them, just the map counters

[alpine plover]

Fucked up really

[placid reef]

and the fact i think the dinos that have the worst/ least accurate dinos are the ones dondi likest he most, then why do they want to make utah so garbage

[primal dove]

bc of : tHe cOmuMiNitY

[alpine plover]

I kind of blame QA tbh as well

[primal dove]

yea feels like most of them don't even play the game, no front

[alpine plover]

Back then they were praising Utah for being pushed more of being a "pack hunter now"
Rather than encouraging pounce, they made it dependent on it like the ability is it's lifeline.

This had terrible consequnces, like when Utah would get outboxed by smaller Carno's

Difficulties in hunting smaller prey, often getting away because of it's nibble bite

The issues with bleed and the bugs with pounce only exacerbated these issues

[primal dove]

utah should be made more bulky, like its irl counterpart it's so stupid that u can't even kill juvis with a single bite

[placid reef]

then we wouldnt be able to run this fast, utah wasnt that fast, they could pull a JP and model it after dakota and just name it utah

by jp i mean model it after a dino and namint it smth else

[primal dove]

mobile and strong for its size that's all I want

[spare badger]

I haven't played pachy but it seems like it's alt attack needs a bit more stam drain eh?

[alpine plover]

It does

Or to be tuned down

Way too good for how much it costs rn

[spare badger]

That sounds fair
Pachy seems pretty good based on the herds of 13 pachies I always find at centre

[spring dagger]

Pachy is borderline OP against certain matchups, I dont like how you can run from a considerable distance and max charge and clip someones tail and still cripple them (More of a hitbox issue than a issue with the mechanic), Utah should recieve its historic weight of 1200 or 800 at a compromise and its pounce should be fixed, its bite force should be around 115 so it can atleast not expend its pounce against small shit which it should realistically be able to kill without pouncing.

[barren oracle]

I mean body fracture but yeah it’s op

And no Utah should not be able to pin pachy

[spring dagger]

How do you counter it then?

[barren oracle]

Increase stam cost of alt attack

[spring dagger]

God no, that changes nothing pretty much

assuming they dont buff the weight

its literally 1 hit and you're crippled/bb'd

[barren oracle]

It does, alt attack does cc and fracture

And your hunting them so it’s a matter of baiting their low amount of stam already

[spring dagger]

Good luck doing that against 13 trillion pachies

Cant exactly isolate and target people when they're clumped at oasis pond in mega herds and there's no competition for food cause they can literally subsist of 1 diet with no net negatives,

as a full adult anyway

[barren oracle]

That’s more of a new Dino problem than a balance problem

Plus aweful map design

[spring dagger]

Yeah the map sucks

Im just not a fan of 1 hit and you die pretty much, its the same with tenonto stun atm given the sheer volume of players

Everyone who was a carno-rex main has just switched to tenonto cause it's piss easy to grow and theres no need to compete with eachother for food given the abundance of food

[barren oracle]

I mean one pounce on pachy and it’s basically dead

[spring dagger]

It should still pin, theres still ways for you to counter it

if you're in a herd anyway

which im assuming you would be, why would you play solo?

[barren oracle]

Hell naw then pachy is fodder

Utah is already a pack animal

[spring dagger]

You have the benefit of covering eachother, if that utah doesn't get off with another pachy on its ass its gonna fucking die.

[barren oracle]

I mean pachy just needs a alt attack stam cost up and Utah needs pounce to work for once

[spring dagger]

I think if pin was to be implemented, there should be a deflection for pachy similar to trike

[barren oracle]

I mean it already pins pachys below 97%

[spring dagger]

Yeah but its still unreliable given the herds

[primal dove]

^^^

[spring dagger]

You cant have an animal be strong and have the benefit of numbers, mega packs are still gonna be a problem for sure and thats just endemic to the game but herbivores allow that to happen cause its intrinsic to their gameplay

[barren oracle]

Also that doesn’t solve anything, if it pins pachys solo pachys are fodder while groups can just kill the Utah that pinned

[spring dagger]

Solo pachies should be fodder?

You're a herbivore and a herd animal

Its the same thing with solo utahs

solo utahs should be fodder cause they're not in a group

It feels like the balance is herbivore favoured anyway given the fact that herbivores outclass their contempareries on all counts, with the exception of Carno which is literally the only viable carnivore playable atm. Ptera is spectator mode, Deino is OP but dogshit cause stego campers and its playstyle, Utah is dogshit.

[golden coral]

No. You're not fodder just because you're solo. That is stupid, and not how you do things.

Not as pachy, not as utah.

[spring dagger]

Well thats just the way the game is going, atleast with utah

otherwise they'd keep its nuke pounce and its 800 weight

So i dont see why it doesnt extend to pachy

[golden coral]

Fodder = you die if x finds you, or similar. Does a utah just die if it's found/seen by a given critter?

[spring dagger]

A solo one pretty much dies every time to a carno or a carno group?

that sounds pretty fodder to me.

[golden coral]

Can you survive just fine if you're on your own. If so, all is well. If not, some change is needed.

[spring dagger]

I can survive solo if i hunt AI yeah, but thats not exactly a good player experience atm

[golden coral]

Since when did utah ever have 800 weight anyway, our ingame utah is nowhere near that heavy?

[spring dagger]

It was update 3

it had its historic weight in Update 1

Then they nerfed it to 500 and then 450 during 3.75 i believe?

[golden coral]

And no, not how I meant it. But can a utah escape a carno if it gets seen? Granted, numbers will make a difference of course, if they can trap you. But if a pachy gets seen by a carno, do the pachy have a way to survive? If a utah gets seen by a carno, do the utah have a way to survive?

[spring dagger]

The pachy can literally full charge and break the carno's leg.

in 1 hit

by hitting the tail

Utah has no counter play

[golden coral]

I think what they meant earlier with pin is that there's no real counterplay to that, so if you let pachies get pinned, then you just die to the utah. Pin as a current mechanic is bad precisely for that reason, since there's nothing to do but die. Same as with deino lunge really.

Wait.. charge works on tail? Don't they have specific areas to hit to get effects on

[spring dagger]

Isn't bone break just as bad?

[golden coral]

Well it shouldn't be, given the whole stages of it

[spring dagger]

or having fights be the equivalent of 1 stun and you die?

[golden coral]

At least how it's been described to work

[spring dagger]

Cause thats how fights are atm

[golden coral]

If it was like legacy, then yes, that is bad

But from what I know, it's supposed to work in stages, and so one hit should not be "Oh I'm doomed"

[spring dagger]

A pachy yesterday bone broke me by hitting my tail and i couldn't trade bites with it cause it kept stunning me.

not exactly my idea of counter play or emergent gameplay.

[golden coral]

Well, that doesn't sound like how it's supposed to work

[spring dagger]

Like i said, its more of a hitbox issue

[primal dove]

pachies ram shouldn't stun

[golden coral]

I'm operating under what I've been told/have read about how it's supposed to work with the new fractures, so yeah

[spring dagger]

well i was biting and it just didnt register so idk

[golden coral]

I'm thinking they need to go for that whole "Pachy breaks carnos leg and runs. If it stays to fight, it dies anyway, even if carno is 'broken'"

[spring dagger]

They do that

and they fucking swarm your ass.

[golden coral]

But that means carno needs a way to defend properly when fractured

[spring dagger]

OR:

[golden coral]

So a pachy or two can't just finish you off

[spring dagger]

They break your leg and a tenonto shows up

you're legit just fucking dead

[golden coral]

Though maybe with current numbers there's an issue there

[spring dagger]

thats what i mean with the balance issue

[golden coral]

But that's more so down to groups being far too sustainable

[spring dagger]

well yeah

but they're not gonna change the spawning of the plants

cause its been like this for a while

[golden coral]

Hence why they need to do biomes proper

[spring dagger]

The map doesn't allow for it though

they'd need to redesign it

Cause lets face it, update 1's map is vastly superior to this fucking garbage ass map.

[golden coral]

Keep teno in swamp, keep pachy.. on coast? Keep stego on plains. Let utahs roam since they can hunt everything. Keep carnos mostly on plains, deinos in swamp, and pteras wherever.

[spring dagger]

Pachy should be an intermediary

it should be in jungles and swamps

[golden coral]

Yeah, I miss the old version of the map too

I don't think pachy belongs in swamps, jungles/forest I can see, and maybe the coast cause why not

At least I've seen people say it should be out there

[spring dagger]

its not really a coastal dino

in my mind anyway

[golden coral]

My point was more so that you need proper biomes to counter the mixing

[spring dagger]

Yeah

we agree on that

[golden coral]

Eh, I don't care, I'm mostly tired of everything being in center :p

We know teno is swamp at least

[spring dagger]

but theres still going to be the problem of 1 diet being enough to sustain massive mega packs

[golden coral]

Well that's a matter of respawn rate/hunger drain and all that

[spring dagger]

Nah its just the system being shit imo

Diets has really done nothing for the game aside from quell somewhat AFK growers

but even then it still happens

You have to be super active as a carnivore which if you dont find a body or dont find some other juvi you're just fucked

[golden coral]

Problem is, if you want to limit bigger groups via food, you need to do it properly, and that means people will starve often, so there's a very clear "you won't be able to do this, split or kill each other, or starve together"

[spring dagger]

Yeah

[golden coral]

Diets were mostly meant to keep critters in their biomes

[spring dagger]

That also diminishes the quality of herbivore gameplay

[golden coral]

Which well... center.. :p

[spring dagger]

cause if you cant herd in massive migrationary paths then whats the point

[golden coral]

So I don't know how they were thinking there, using diets to keep things in their own biome would work, if the plants were in different biomes

To be fair, we have grazing for herbis

Perhaps that could be expanded to be a "on the move food source" for said migrations

[spring dagger]

Like before, when Diets was just implemented they had the balance perfect imo for herbivores

it was groups and small pockets

competing or starving

[golden coral]

But there's not that many ways to limit group numbers unless you want to add some sort of hard limit somehow

[spring dagger]

Yeah like thats the problem

its fucked

and its just endemic to the game, you cant balance it

I still dont know why there was a massive outcry for nerfs to playables when they should be focusing on buffing them up on a competitive level so they can all realistically compete and survive

cause again to reiterate, the only viable carnivore is carno

whereas Tenonto, Dryo, Hypsi, Stego and Pachy are all going to be at a much better state due to their gameplay

You can actively dictate the terms of the engagement as a herbivore which is the strongest weapon to have, whereas the carnivore player is more situation dependent

which alot of people will call me silly over mentioning this

[golden coral]

Not sure there's much to say about hypsi really, or dryo. They're.. "viable" but lacking. Teno is good, pachy is good, stego has it's own issues. And I don't know, the one with speed dictates the terms of the engagement, and that's normally the carnivore.

[spring dagger]

I mean maybe, but its dependent on age as well

[golden coral]

So that's less herbi/carni matter and simply whichever critter has the speed

[spring dagger]

if you're a juvi out in the open then yeha

but if you're an adult

speed doesnt really matter when 1 stun can just end a carno's game

cause you've got pachies, other tenontos and a stego for your pleasure

[golden coral]

Speed matters since it decides if there's an engagement at all

[spring dagger]

I dont agree

tbh

[golden coral]

Well that's just facts

Nothing you can disagree with

[spring dagger]

I think speed is a factor, but there are other factors that determine engagement

[golden coral]

Speed determines if you have to engage at all

[spring dagger]

Power, Weight, HP status, Hunger etc

[golden coral]

If you can outspeed the other guy, you and you alone decide if there's to be a fight or not

[spring dagger]

theres more factors than speed to consider when you hunt

[golden coral]

Yes but speed is the one thing dictating the engagement

[spring dagger]

from a herbivore perspective i agree with you

[golden coral]

Nothing else matters for who decides what/if anything will happen

[primal dove]

You have to keep speed in mind yea but a teno still can dictate where the fight goes if we take the carno matchup, since it can kill the carno in seconds

[spring dagger]

exactly

[golden coral]

The carno dictates if there's a fight at all

The teno can not force the fight

[spring dagger]

The tenonto can force the fight

[golden coral]

No?

[spring dagger]

absolutely

you can run carnos down if they charge you

i've seen it happen many times.

[golden coral]

Which means the carno decided to engage

The teno can not force the fight unless the carno decides "yes lets do it"

[primal dove]

to survive

[spring dagger]

Thats what i mean with the engagement thing

Sure carno is the initator

but ultimately the herbivore can dictate the terms of where it goes

[golden coral]

Well, dictating the engagement is just who decides if there's a fight or not

Not how the fight goes

[spring dagger]

I think we have different definitions

[golden coral]

Possibly

[spring dagger]

Ig i should phrase it as:

Yeah carno can dictate the terms of the engagement, Herbivores can dictate the terms of the actual fight and its outcome

[golden coral]

But the defender has to dictate how the engagement goes, since the "speed" dictates if there's an engagement at all

So that makes some sense to me

[spring dagger]

ye

Eitherway i think carnos charge uses so much fucking stamina now for it to be viable, its pretty much a death sentence if you dont hit it

which i dont agree with

[golden coral]

Since you can choose if you get into the fight, and the other person can't, it makes sense that the other peson can choose more on how the fight goes, since they have no choice but to take the fight if you want it.

[spring dagger]

Plus you have to wind it up to do more dmg and actually burst the tenointo down

[golden coral]

Eh.. carno charge.. I don't like it

Personally I would design carno differently

[spring dagger]

I would've preferred a side swipe so it can knock people on their side or tip them off balance and collide into stuff like it historically did

[golden coral]

Then again, I would probably do the same for utah, skip the whole epic JP raptor and make it more "accurate", and more of a same size/slightly larger hunter or something

[spring dagger]

that would make it excentuate the small game huinter niche

[golden coral]

I want a focus mode for the carno

Keep the trash turn radius when running normally, give it extremely good turn when charging, but make that very short lasting. Basically the carno goes "I will kill you, and you in particular", running one of the small and agile things down and biting it to death.

Rather than this current charge/ram thing

[spring dagger]

You cant really do that cause of the massive herds though

thats the problem with it

[spare badger]

Ah yes carno discussions
Always a pleasure
Carno charge works fine imo
It makes it focus on effective ambushes

And allows it to defeat stronger animals like teno

[golden coral]

Well, a carno would be hunting smaller stuff, dryo, galli, maybe younger things of slightly larger size, lone/pairs of utahs maybe and so on. Not really hunting herds/bigger things.

[spring dagger]

It works fine yeah but it drains so much stamina to the ppoint where you cant get away reliably after use, unless you wait to the last second but thats asking to be stunned or just run into a teno and do nothing

[golden coral]

More so you let one of them spread from the herd, then run it down before it can get away/back.

[spring dagger]

ye

If they actually impllemented more playables sure

[golden coral]

Well, we do need to keep in mind there is an entire roster coming

[spring dagger]

but for the sake of balancing now, it has to be able to hunt mid tier things, theres just no dryos or hypsis for it to be a small game hunter

[golden coral]

At some point, so

[spring dagger]

not to mention the stupidity that is boar not being on its diet

small game hunter btw

[golden coral]

I don't know, I find it a bit questionable on how to balance, for current roster or for what the critter is

Also yeah, there's no dryos, how do we fix that? :p

[fresh laurel]

I feel like utah would work as a jaguar niche ngl

[spring dagger]

thats herrera

[fresh laurel]

true

[golden coral]

Baby utahs could have it though

[spring dagger]

Utah should be the bruiser dromeosaur

[fresh laurel]

also true

lets be honest

we are never getting realistic ootah

[golden coral]

It should be, but our utah is not made for that

[spring dagger]

yea

[golden coral]

If we had a proper utah, then you'd be spot on

[spring dagger]

I mean IMO:

[fresh laurel]

utah remodel...

could fix that

but that will be in 3 years

[golden coral]

I'd be fine with it, I think more accurate utah is pretty badass

But it's a JP game, so we get the JP raptor, for good or ill

[fresh laurel]

a realistic utah prob wouldnt have pounce tbh

[golden coral]

Hence spino and so on as well

[fresh laurel]

spino...

spino been lifting since legacy

[golden coral]

Nah, it might be more akin to the allo grapple possibly? Some sort of heavy RPR, but more direct and less pouncing/jumping around

[fresh laurel]

maybe

[golden coral]

Realistic utah would also be way slower

[fresh laurel]

but a more relistic utah would lose some speed for power

ye

[spring dagger]

[Utah Balancing]

- *Fix Pounce*

- Give its historic weight of 1200KG or 800KG at a compromise

- Make its stamina more efficient in the pounce, but bucking uses a fuck tonne of stamina of the utah, whilst using an amount of the pounced creatures stamina

- Make it more reliant on bleed than on raw dmg, but increase the bite force of its bite to like 115N

Thats what i would do

[fresh laurel]

800kg would be good

[spring dagger]

IDK what i would define amounts as.

[fresh laurel]

pachy would need to eat mc donalds to compensate

[spring dagger]

thats why im suggesting like pachy should beable to deflect utah mid-pounce like trike did

when they were showing off utah pounce pre-evrima

[wise sparrow]

Isn't pachy bigger than what we have in game?

[fresh laurel]

pachy can deflect pounce

[spring dagger]

Slightly i think?

It can?

[golden coral]

With current weight/health, I don't know about that, unless you want to boot pachy up in power as well. It is reliant on bleed, but biteforce at 65-70 would be fine. Not sure on it going much higher though, and certainly not that high.

[spring dagger]

damn holy shit i didnt know

[fresh laurel]

it needs

crazy good timing

[golden coral]

It'll get along great with our acro then :p

[spring dagger]

Pachy should be about like 950kg?

i think its fair that Pachy is slightly above Utah

[fresh laurel]

our acro has a platinum membership mcdonalds card

[golden coral]

I think that was mostly an automatic thing. Not so much an action as "if you pounce here, this happens". Just like we could add "if you pounce stego tail, you get impaled" or something.

[spring dagger]

Ye

[golden coral]

So then you'd need an automatic "if pachy is facing the pounce, this happens" I guess

[fresh laurel]

im just mad utah weight got nerfed cus devs didnt wanna make pachy heavier

[spring dagger]

I dont think anything should be auto

[fresh laurel]

now i can barley drag a dryo

[spring dagger]

i think it should reflect the skill of the player for sure

[golden coral]

But I don't think we can make the weights that high, it'd throw off the rest of the balance

[fresh laurel]

i mean

apex would one shot utah still

ngl apexes were added too early to begin with

[golden coral]

I meant more so that I don't think the trike thing is an action, so if you want something like that, it'd probs be like kentro "if you pounce here, you die" :p

[fresh laurel]

I think if utah pounces kentro side it would be fine

but anywhere else is gg you're dead

[spring dagger]

Weights for the creatures i think ideally, for the current roster:

Carno - 2100 / 1950

Utah - 1200 / 800

Pachy - 950

Tenonto - 2000 / 1975

Stego - Fine where it is

Deino - Fuck that piece of shit crocodile its fine

Ptera - Fine where it is

Hypsi / Dryo - Fine where it is

[primal dove]

agree

[fresh laurel]

carno will have trouble with a utah like that ngl

but lets do it

:)

[spring dagger]

I liked the old carno v utah match up

[primal dove]

who knows? Let's find out :3

[fresh laurel]

smite all the carnos mains

[golden coral]

I think the issue might be that the differences then aren't big enough. You're bumping things up to sizes and powers they wouldn't have.

[grave veldt]

problem is that their using more accurate weights

[spring dagger]

In game now?

[golden coral]

And yes, we're going for accurate sizes, which means it'd be odd

[grave veldt]

yes

[fresh laurel]

wouldnt teno tail make it a bit more heavy than carno?

[spring dagger]

Cause Utah is far from accurate, same with carno

same with pachy tbh

[golden coral]

Hence why carno got downsized back then, as did teno I think

[spring dagger]

ye

[grave veldt]

no utah is accurate so is pachy

[golden coral]

Nah, carno is accurate

[spring dagger]

Utah isnt accurate

[golden coral]

Pachy, I think? It's not a big animal from what I know

[spring dagger]

i stg

[golden coral]

And utah is accurate for what we have

[fresh laurel]

carno is accurate after the nerfs

[grave veldt]

no utah specimens with 800 kg as an estimate

[golden coral]

At the very least

[spring dagger]

But they're 450kg

and its a range of specimens

[fresh laurel]

a big utah could work if it loses some speed for agility

[grave veldt]

if u can find me a specimen that has a estimate higher then 600 kg then that would be interesting

[spring dagger]

with 1000kg being the largest and oldest