balance-feedback-discussion

[dusky surge]

it LITERALLY

got nerfed

it used to be able to pin larger targets

[alpine plover]

i think it should be harder to kill things that are barely smaller than you with it

[dusky surge]

up to 1000kg

but now it only pins things 450kg and below

[alpine plover]

because thats fair, especially considering a lot of the time you're both slower and less agile

[placid reef]

utah cant even pin adult pachy

[alpine plover]

good

[quaint merlin]

im just asking for things to be able to buck the pin

[dusky surge]

frankly, utah is meant to be either a VERY small game hunter or a large game pack hunter

don't take another thing away from it

[placid reef]

50kg is kinda stupid imo

[alpine plover]

pachy shouldnt way that little anyway

i think it should be at least 600, its quite a chunky boy

[placid reef]

ye but rn its like 1/9th of utahs weight heavier which makes it bs you cant pin it

[alpine plover]

how much does utah weigh rn?

[placid reef]

450

pachy 500

[alpine plover]

imo it should be far lower

[dusky surge]

really?

it used to be 500kg

we reducing it again lmao

[placid reef]

500 seemed perfect imo

[dusky surge]

why does everyone want UTAH nerfed of all things lmao

[alpine plover]

utah was slightly lowered for the sole reason of making the new system not pin pachy i believe

[placid reef]

maybe pachy headbut overirdes pin?? i dont know if that was something they thoght of

[dusky surge]

how

[alpine plover]

Well from a realistic standpoint 500 kilos is heavy. That is the weight of a horse.

[quaint merlin]

idk man holding rmb to win without any brainpower just doesnt seem THAT fun, i think it should be still be able to do that but atleast give it a fuckin buck man

[dusky surge]

yea and utahs are big

[slim dragon]

Like, instantly break free of a pin by headbutting ?

[placid reef]

they made tail slam of teno overirde headbut so its def smth they can do

[dusky surge]

tons of other animals hold RMB to win

[alpine plover]

yeah but in the game it is significantly less bulky than it was irl

pachy should do the worm and fling the utah off of it

[placid reef]

like knoking headbutting while its pouncing if you time it right so its just falls

[quaint merlin]

yeah but its not a fucking one shot win against opponets

[dusky surge]

deino

literally deino

[quaint merlin]

you can escape

[dusky surge]

how

[slim dragon]

Isn't that already the case ?
If a Utah is pouncing at a charging pachy, I think it gets knocked away

[unborn iris]

Yeah, that's how it works already. You can be hit mid-air pouncing.

[dusky surge]

the only way you can escape a deino is by hoping it runs out of stam (the same way you deal with a utah)

[placid reef]

then seems kinda stupid since it has 2 counterplays towards pounce

[slim dragon]

Just make pinning a target cost more stamina than pouncing a target that doesn't buck
Boom, automatic bucking when you're pinned, problem solved

Maybe it's even already the case

[alpine plover]

the 500 kilogram estimate applies to the real animal as it is ridiculously heavily built, not so much to the ingame raptor as it has like a third of the weight of the irl shorn off.

[dusky surge]

i just dont think utah needs a nerf. evade utahs as a child, that's literally it

pin is meant to be brutal, utah is a fucking extra-small killing machine

[alpine plover]

also why is weight a mere synonym for (max) health?

[unborn iris]

Realism arguments are pointless if they want weight=hp. There will have to be some unrealistic weights for game balance.

[alpine plover]

ironic considering the utah found him with esp lol

[slim dragon]

Also they're trying to make the pounce hard to land, especially on smalls, so it's fair that if you get hit, you get screwed

[dusky surge]

i refuse to account for cheats in the realm of balance

[quaint merlin]

haha thats a story for another day

[dusky surge]

cheats are designed to forgo balance

[unborn iris]

Yeah, that seems to be the point with the pre-pounce delay. And it seemed to work.

[alpine plover]

you missed the part where i brought it up for comedic timing and not for a point

[quaint merlin]

the thing that annoyed me was the fucker made no audible footsteps

[dusky surge]

hacker crigne

[quaint merlin]

like i usually hear shit in this game

[unborn iris]

Sounds have been busted since they added in ambience.

Somewhat before, but it's so much worse now.

[wise sparrow]

@pale island stay in the water. Easy fix. Deino is supposed to have a disadvantage on land.

[pale island]

That would be fine if it could get its nutrients and food by staying purely in the water, but thats not the case

[wise sparrow]

Its an ambush predator. Lunge from the water.

If there isn't enough animals drinking there are too many deinos eating them all

[pale island]

Gl finding anyone drinking from water deep enough to lunge from, drinking above you, not seeing you or the ripples, and pulling off a lunge

[wise sparrow]

Well deinos broken rn but not taking the ripples into account the map isn't designed to support as many deinos as there are

[unborn iris]

You do know about deino alt attack, right?

[pale island]

I mentioned it in my feedback, so yes

[unborn iris]

Ok.. you do know it bites where your camera is aiming, right?

[pale island]

I know about alt attack, alt attack isnt the problem, the problem is that you get tail ridden constantly because you cant turn if you cant alt attack

[unborn iris]

Deino has a few issues right now.. but alt bite isn't one of them.

[pale island]

Im not talking about alt bite

[unborn iris]

That's literally the whole point.. you use stamina for alt attack, if you use stamina, you can't do it..

[pale island]

Im talking about turning normally

[unborn iris]

If you are getting tail ridden as a deino, you messed up.

[wise sparrow]

1. You can turn. Get good.
2. Stop trying to go onto land then complain that you get minorly damaged by land based dinos

[unborn iris]

If you could just 180 turn at any point you wouldn't need alt attack.

[hollow canyon]

I haven't played Deino in the MT so far but from what I recall based on what I saw in its diet - I wouldn't want to really play it anyways

[unborn iris]

Yeah, they messed up on the diet it seems.

[hollow canyon]

in general this animal seems really bad with the diets to me

at the same time - it's way too good if it gets to ignore diets

[pale island]

The problem is that you cant 180 turn because the game wants you to 90 turn, thats my whole feedback. I know deino is supposed to be weak on land, but it shouldnt be tail ridden because you cause turn fast enough without using your insta turn attack

[hollow canyon]

Idk what to do with it, I don't think it should've been added to the game this early on

[pale island]

Because the game makes you 90 turn when looking backwards

[hollow canyon]

What do you mean by you can't 180 turn because the game wants you to 90 turn?

You're talking about turning without alt biting right?

And that the game makes you turn only by 90 degrees whenever you try to turn by 180?

[wise sparrow]

But that's the point all dinos are gonna have the mobility advantage on land. What they do with that is up to them. Stop wanting deino to be a rex and get better

[pale island]

Yes, if i look backwards to try to 180 turn, i either 90 turn, or the game makes me 180 turn back and forth rapidly without actually turning because it cant pick a direction

[wise sparrow]

If deino could 180 with no stam cost it would be untouchable.

[pale island]

Its not a skill issue if you cant physically turn. I want deino to be balanced, thats why i suggested nerfing it. And it can already 180 turn. I just want it to not freak out every time

[slim dragon]

Seems like a problem on your computer's end
Like keybindings conflicting or something

[pale island]

Its not my keyboard, its the game thinking its not enough of a turn to 180 turn, or it not figuring out a direction to go because im looking straight back

[wise sparrow]

While I see tail riding as absolute ass, even irl animals can stay on an exhausted crocs ass.

Anyway gtg

[slim dragon]

You're the first person ever I see talking about is problem, and I know you're far from being the only one playing deino. So it's a bug on your computer's end, not a problem with the game.

You should submit your issue to #🐞-evrima-bug-reports-🐞

[pale island]

Idk how itd be only my problem, its possible other people didnt think it was big enough to report it, and im pretty sure thats what it is is that it cant figure out where to go based on camera direction, but ill do that

[slim dragon]

Maybe it's just super rare and you are unlucky

[pale island]

Ill try to get a video of it sometime so you can see

Cause it doesnt feel like a glitch type bug, more just unintended

[unborn iris]

Yeah, I just got on a deino and had no trouble doing a 180.. yeah it's not an instant turn, but no issues like you are talking about.

[pale island]

I was thinking about it and it may also be an issue with collision when being tail ridden, like it wants to turn but wont turn into a hitbox or something like that, ill see if i can replicate it later

I was able to 180° a few times when i was tail ridden back then, but when I actually needed to never

[heavy fossil]

@deft hornet Yeah, but how old of a stego were you when you died to the boar? Because baby stego vs full grown matters. If you died as a full grown, or near full grown stego to a boar, that's a problem. Otherwise.... shrugs Babies are weak and die. Circle of life and all that.

[deft hornet]

the boar not suppsoed to show up randomly crossing a river and aggro two small stegos across the map tho. thats not circle of life thats circle of broken AI.

[spare badger]

Since when do you need to be 50 percentage to get coconuts? I could do it as a fresh spawn, unless that changed in the recent patch

[grave veldt]

its changed

which sucks cuz u literally cannot eat coco's unless they've already been hit

[placid reef]

they fall naturaly i think

[grave veldt]

if they do then thats good

[barren oracle]

they do

[pulsar ember]

@raw sparrow there is no reason for swim speeds to be nerfed. Most dinosaurs get a running start before swimming. Deino swim faster at the water surface. Or most ppl cross where the river is smaller.

[raw sparrow]

u should be scared of crossing a river, right now u arent scared cause youre swim speed is almost as fast as deinos swim speed... there should be consequence for crossing river... players have that sprint and jump, so why do they need a fast swim?

[dusky surge]

they aren't. Every fast swim swimspeed, with the exception of teno, is less than half the speed of a deino's fast swim

Teno is the exception because it literally lives right next to the water for its diet

[pulsar ember]

Well I'm not, as a stego I take a running start as a Utah/teno I can just jump.

[grave veldt]

the main issue isnt the speed of dino swim

its that the rivers are extremely thin and not wide at all

there isnt much to cross

[dusky surge]

Very true

[pulsar ember]

Yup

[raw sparrow]

seeing as they arent changing river width, swim speed needs to be reduced or jump distance needs to be reduced

[sinful cove]

Most dinos swim slow af what are you on

[wise sparrow]

He just wants deino to be easier to play

[dusky surge]

i just think we need water that isn't exclusively rivers lmao

[wise sparrow]

Honestly lazy river would be TERRIFYING in evrima lmao

[sinful cove]

Lazy river was great. Luckily we have like 1/5th of the map available rn so we have a lot of chances to get something like titan lake or lazy river at some point

[wise sparrow]

If lazy ever makes a return it would be a semi aquatic paradise

Too bad legacy lazy had no people cause they all went to gf );

[sinful cove]

The islands at lazy river and titan lake would have been great nesting spots for deinos

I used to nest there as sucho

[wise sparrow]

Sucho was pretty good at lazy. I've seen rexes get so hurt form drown damage that I could kill them lmao

[sinful cove]

Would also be a horror show gaining stam as terrestrials on the islands, wondering if a deino will pop up on your patch of land as you are cornered. And horror is what the isle is apparently supposed to be

Lmao yeah lots of fool rexes who tried to swim to the islands for a fight

[wise sparrow]

Spinos scared me tho

[pulsar ember]

Again no it doesn't, you need to be more around of what going on well your in the water. If your too late to catch a Utah in middle swim. Then that on you.

[raw sparrow]

again, yes it does.. there needs to be a downside of crossing a river, period

[pulsar ember]

By that logic, most people will not cross the river. Or cross it where it is shallow and Deinos have to walk across. The downside of crossing is getting attack by a Deino. Because the next complain will be "Utah/tento should be able to jump half way across."

You not gonna catch something that half across, let alone kill it in time before it reaches land. I'm not saying that is impossible.

[raw sparrow]

yeah people need to consider before crossing a river, right now no one does because they can jump over the river or swim fast af

[wise sparrow]

You're basically saying if something touches the water while a deino is in a 100 mile radius then they're fucked. You clearly need to find popular crossing spots, then set up there. Deino is supposed to have a high skill wall and you seem to want it to be legacy rex but wet

[raw sparrow]

i didnt mention the deinos distance

youre assuming i want deinos to teleport

is what youre saying

[wise sparrow]

What I'm saying is you need to position yourself better. Dinos in the water aren't free meals

If all the animals sucked at crossing rivers then they'd go extinct cause the deinos would eat them all

[raw sparrow]

decent players know safe crossings, im talking about the players theat cross where deinos are and theres no consequence to that, there needs to be

[wise sparrow]

People shouldn't be limited to the 4 or 5 safe spots

[pulsar ember]

You gotta be a troll. A stego or any dino for that matter, watches/looks at the water before crossing. Stegos, are not a one spot. Utah/tentos can just and carno get a running start

[wise sparrow]

Also if they cross near a deino and the deino doesn't catch them then clearly they knew they had a chance

[raw sparrow]

theres more than 4-5

[wise sparrow]

This seems like, quite literally, a skill issue on your part

[sinful cove]

You can also try baiting with meat at the shore because a lot of desperate or stupid people still fall for that trick but other than that get better lmao

[mental roost]

Nerfing the current roster's swim speed would just feel like shit and they're already slow swimmers. Have you ever played as a juvi carno and had to cross a river? It sucks because of how god damn sluggish it is. Deino is already faster than them in the water, so it doesn't even matter. The issue is strictly in the fact that most of the rivers are pretty damn thin.. Utahs and Tenotos jumping is fine, it makes them stand out more and it feels more fun to play around with. As a Deino you won't be able to catch everything.. If a utah jumps over you and to the other end of the river.. Well too bad, it's using its abilities to its advantage. Maybe you'll get the maiasaura trying to drink instead since it can't jump over.

I fail to see how lowering the swim speeds of the roster is beneficial in anyway whatsoever except making for more infuriating design choices.

[pulsar ember]

I have seen Deinos wait till the last sec after the dino has cross to swim towards them.

[wise sparrow]

^

[pulsar ember]

thank you

[sinful cove]

Also isnt a vertical lunge still planned so skilled deinos can catch skimming pteras and jumping people if they time it right

I know it was mentioned by a dev

[wise sparrow]

God imagine that from the utahs perspective

Honestly legacy made me loathe utahs but now I feel bad for them

[sinful cove]

Narrowly dodging a deino that just shoots out of the water as youre jumping over

Im usually a hardcore utah hater but damn they got it rough rn

Carnos are the new cancer

[golden coral]

Reminder that you can swim-lunge and catch someone in the water

[pulsar ember]

As ptera I never did skimmed in the same water as a deino. Something just told me no

[mental roost]

The real way to add more consequences for river crossing would literally just be making Deino feel better to play. Water lunge adjustments(audio, distance, etc), making smaller/younger deinos able to move more quickly, vertical lunging, etc.. Currently juvenile-sub adult Deino is a wasted opportunity but I feel like it could be built upon further if someone just had the will to do so.

[sinful cove]

I skim with deinos around sometimes because losing a ptera doeant mean much to me but i havent died to a deino yet

[wise sparrow]

Thing is I respected carnos in legacy for the sole reason that they had to fight without tail riding. But NOW oh god

[mental roost]

I'd love if swim lunge had more of a tell... as in opening jaws wide, dashing forward, with a loud rumble, and actually having a clear frame for biting and grabbing..(right now it's just kinda.. small zip and pop.. and you can barely tell it apart from the hold right click dash)

[sinful cove]

Being able to drag or snare animals usually too heavy to drag ok land while they’re swimming could also be cool

[mental roost]

Would make it scarier too to see one dash forward, with its mouth open and then bite onto you and force you down into the water.. As opposed to " .. .Missed that one, gonna try again."(because the water lunge is kinda...underwhelming compared to the lunge used for ambushing drinkers)

[sinful cove]

Maybe swimming terrestrials could have their weight reduced to 2/3 of its usual

The current lunge is like “hehe surprise hehe”

[mental roost]

I'd be fine with that rip.. Could also lead to an opportunity for a death roll ability.

[wise sparrow]

I can already see a bug that sets their health to 2/3 of its original health lmao.

[mental roost]

Water lunge:" . gao... missed, try again.."
Ambush lunge:"Jaws of death lunging out of the water at high speed(before the nerf)

[sinful cove]

Honestly, knowing how the isle goes… yeah lmao

[wise sparrow]

Deino has great potential and I will defo main it eventually. But the overpopulation and deinorex players make me wanna treat that animal like nuclear waste

[sinful cove]

Deino rn is in a spot where even if i want to suicide i wont do it to a deino because i dont want to feed their population out of spite

My friend was suiciding to deinos the other day as tenonto and he had to TRY because the idiots didnt know how to lunge and were too afraid to bite him. Full grown deinos

[mental roost]

I wouldn't mind buffing Deino's bite force... if they actually made its bite unique(ei two parts.. initial bite current damage(or weaker).. bite and hold for maximum damage.. at the cost of actually having to focus on a target..

-Low key.. juvenile and sub adult Deino need more love still...

[sinful cove]

Deino doesnt reallt need a bite force buff but it would make sense for him to fracture

[wise sparrow]

Not related to anything rn but I remember a time when I heard crunching and I cleared the trees and there were like 7 tenos grazing on the deinos body and they all stopped and looked at me and went back to it. It was scary man.

[sinful cove]

Lmao

Only real use for graze, to taunt on bodies

[mental roost]

More so thinking for water than anything.... but I still think as a side note, it's kinda BS that being bit on the tail by a Deino as a tenoto and losing so much health is a little... BS... so making the bite actually have more of a purpose(so it's not just water Rex) would be nice.

-Also wtf was its bleed damage in 3.75 because it felt like huge BS

[wise sparrow]

I almost feel bad for the deino cause it got gang banged by 7 tenos. But he was like miles away from the water sooooo

[mental roost]

-. Maybe he wanted to die?? Or just dumb.

[sinful cove]

I would too if i was playing deino

[mental roost]

-Probably the latter.

[wise sparrow]

Probs a deinorex player

Going onto land thinking hes tough shit

[mental roost]

I'd be fine if Deino's bleed got nerfed... because why the hell does it need so much bleed anyway, same for Carno.

[sinful cove]

Probably wasted all his stam running on land to the tenontos and got pummeled because a good 75% if deino players are bottom of the barrel

Deino should have frac instead of bleed at adult

Juvie gators have sharp af teeth tho

[wise sparrow]

Give it legacy rex bone break

[mental roost]

I kinda think that Deino and others would benefit from still being able to use stamina using attacks without stamina.. HOWEVER both their damage and speed is reduced(ei, a deino with 0 stamina can alt bite...but it's slower than its normal alt bite, and the damage slightly reduced.. making it easier to avoid than normal.. and also keeping its stamina down if it's still spamming it)

-legacy Rex bone break only belongs on Anky...(if it was actually a good design for Evrima), and nothing else. Change my mind.

[sinful cove]

Rex and anky should be the top two fracturers

[mental roost]

Sorta like when you're tired.. and you're FORCING yourself to keep moving..but you're shit at it.

[sinful cove]

Followed by pachyrhino and adult deinos maybe

[mental roost]

So your movements and ability to do said actions are shit.

[wise sparrow]

"Bonebreak is op so we are removing it" gives the most op dino bone break

[sinful cove]

Deino could also have a tail slap that just soes blunt damage for that purpose

[mental roost]

-Just don't make deino tail slap too strong.. or annoying.. F

[wise sparrow]

Deino doesn't need any new attacks rn

Maybe in the future but deino would be untouchable with a tail slap rn

[sinful cove]

Deino shoulda had a tail slap from the start. Deino and mega should have one eventually

But yeah maybe not rn

Since it is already in with its current shit

[dusky surge]

With the most recent patch, jumping a river as teno is probably less efficient than just swimming it

you swim extremely fast for very little stam

[mental roost]

@dusky surge Don't jumpscare me like that.

[dusky surge]

i managed to escape a carno through simply the act of swimming

[dusky surge]

Deino and rex are the only two creatures I like the idea of getting fracture bites

[primal dove]

totally agree, bonebreak for deino would be huge. Imagine if it bites a stego in the head while it´s drinking. Your screen turns black in a second and u try to run away from the river and never come back xD

I'd love it

[hollow canyon]

I love the fact that the map is already messed up because the dumb river worm is a part of the roster and now some people want the game to be even more messed up to cater to the dumb croc. I swear this is probably the most atrocious playable added to this game so far and it only negatively impacts the game.

It plays like garbage and playing against it is also garbage.

Wanna win against Deino? Just... don't come close to it... EVER.

Fascinating counterplay.

Then we end up with all the other playables clumping up in the specific spots where they can drink without risking losing however many hours of time spent on growing whichever animal they are at that moment within a single moment where Deino presses right mouse button as well as a bunch of crocs that are bored like hell because nothing ever comes close to them(aside from Stegos who do whatever they want).

[dusky surge]

I still think ptera is a worse addition to the current roster than deino

[sinful cove]

Hey all us pteras do is be annoying

[hollow canyon]

It's equally dull and boring but at least it doesn't cause the devs to mess up the maps to make it better.

[sinful cove]

It aint as bad

[dusky surge]

i kinda wish sucho was in instead. If we wanted to go big, we should've gone big with the aquatics. Let the two giants fight over their puddles and stay well away from the affairs of the land species

[barren oracle]

Thats factually a war crime

[hollow canyon]

The worst it does is it works as a scout and honestly I haven't seen them being worked as scouts since ~May?

[sinful cove]

At least ptera is fun to play unlike afk simulator oneshot river monster

[unborn iris]

Every good mega/mix pack has a ptera scout.

[barren oracle]

Ptera do be base flyer

deino could be a good base swimmer

[dusky surge]

One issue I have is we have TWO planned fucking flyers

TWO FLYERS

[barren oracle]

if it wasnt massive and overpowered

[dusky surge]

WHAT

[barren oracle]

shhhhh

[sinful cove]

Possible third too

[barren oracle]

Ptera is fun and different

[hollow canyon]

I think both are dull playables but Pteranodon honestly seems better as it has less of a negative impact. Deino's just awful all around and it causes the game to be worse because devs have to cater to its playerbase to make this trash playable at all.

Literally should be turned into AI

[dusky surge]

Deino isn't even that. Deino's playstyle is very much unlike any other aquatic, since it will likely be the closest thing we will get to a fish. It is basically the most aquatic an aquatic can be

[barren oracle]

Deino bad bary better

[dusky surge]

Deino can dive, breathe for long durations underwater, etc

No other aquatic is really going to be THIS aquatically focussed

[barren oracle]

bary better

[dusky surge]

Eh

Bary cool but map no good for it atm

[hollow canyon]

Just about anything is better than this

Map is no good for anything

[barren oracle]

Then fishing is a thing with ptera so probably could add a small stream or two where you can fish from

[hollow canyon]

largely because Deino exists and it needs to have all the water connected so the whole map looks like a joke

[dusky surge]

My issue with how they added deino is that the ENTIRE map became deino-focussed, and it created the new map meta of "centre haha"

since the closer you are to shallows, the better

And in centre, there was the shallow river

So guess where everyone wants to be

[barren oracle]

Huh

Oh i go to centre cause all the food is there

[dusky surge]

Nah, Update 3

That was caused by water

Not food

[barren oracle]

Oh i went south then

all the players where there

[dusky surge]

Yea true

But it was centre-south

That's it

[barren oracle]

that or i went somewhere at the edge of the map with a herbi and vibed

[dusky surge]

i wish they added sucho so we could have sucho for shallows and deino for the depths

[barren oracle]

Sucho is pretty big tho right?

[dusky surge]

yea, and it could beat the FUCK out of a deino

(if the deino was young)

It's also VERY slow on land

[barren oracle]

I like bary more than any other aquatic

mainly because it can move pretty fast and can sit in a quite location with fish and vibe

[dusky surge]

True, however, if we're going to start adding extremists over generalists with deinos, might as well add the king of the shallows (besides deinocherius)

[barren oracle]

I mean Tbh i like the bar they've set in size with deino and steg but they did add them too soon

Mabye if they added cerato troodon and kentro before them

[dusky surge]

cerato seems like the next semi-semi-aquatic

our first of course being teno

[barren oracle]

Teno is faster than a deino now lmao

[dusky surge]

Nah

Deino still faster

By a longshot

[barren oracle]

Not while casually swimming

[dusky surge]

As in, slow-swim?

[barren oracle]

As in like normal swimming

idk what to call it

[dusky surge]

Teno is still slower swimmer

[barren oracle]

swear it was faster but nvm i guess

[unborn iris]

Do QA get some kind of admin access in QA builds?

[dusky surge]

I love referring to teno as the semi-semi-aquatic

[unborn iris]

Like to test stuff without actually having to grow/play?

[dusky surge]

I genuinely have no idea how far the NDA goes

[unborn iris]

I see.

[dusky surge]

So I choose to be safe

And only bring up stats that can be tested in-game

[stoic token]

its written that clearly huh? on another note. Whos is able to restart the QA servers?

[hollow canyon]

The programmers are the only ones who can do that

[stoic token]

ahhh

[hollow canyon]

That is: Filipe, Amarok and Adam

[stoic token]

unfortunate

[dusky surge]

Oh QA has no control over the base servers

[hollow canyon]

The official server admins and even other devs can't do that

[dusky surge]

lmao

[hollow canyon]

Yea nah, there's no way QA can turn the servers on or anything like that

[placid reef]

imagine, the plot twist, it was QA all along

[hollow canyon]

last I've checked they all did have admin on the QA servers but that was during ~the January stress test

Idk if it's still a thing

[stoic token]

QA is crashing the servers you heard it here first folks

i kid

[unborn iris]

It wouldn't make sense if they didn't have access to some kind of admin commands. If they were limited to only testing what they grew it wouldn't be very good QA. Apparently there's a new fatal error issue. Happened yesterday around pond, everyone who went there fataled and then same thing every time you log in to that server until your dino apparently dies of thirst or hunger.

So not like the carno getting knocked down.. something just causing it constant now.

But I doubt spectator mode would help much in that situation.

[barren oracle]

Jesus im glad they have the MT for this crap

[unborn iris]

Just happened to me earlier in an area on the map that not many people go to, twice.. like my dino died and I could get back in and restart. Went near the same area and it did it again.

[spare badger]

How are the new balance changes?

[dusky surge]

imo, really damn good

[spare badger]

Do tell
I want to know before I jump in today

Can I play teno again?

[dusky surge]

Teno is basically a kangaroo, a roided up angry-ass herbi that will fucking beat the shit out of you if you get close and likes to spend its time waiting in shallow rivers so you can join it and pretty much instantly die. Also, the swimspeed is great and can help you escape carnos at a young age.

Carno actually takes skill and coordination to take out animals like teno, its no longer a given fight in the carno's favour.

Stego runs for a reasonable amount of time considering the fact that it could run FOREVER before.

Utah cannot die to starvation, it can basically live entirely off scraps it finds because of how long the hunger drain is.

[spare badger]

That sounds amazing already
Can pachy actually turn now too?

[dusky surge]

Yes

Pachy is actually scary good

Maybe a tad too good

It still has the weakness of being an absolute pushover as a kid, and I think the fractures aren't as powerful as before

(you can sprint with body fractures and trot with a leg fracture)

[spare badger]

Nice

[grave veldt]

are there fracture tiers on a body part?

[spare badger]

Carno-rex has been banished and I'm happy

I can go beat up carnos again

[spare badger]

Staying in shallow rivers?

[dusky surge]

If you stand in a shallow river while being attacked by pachys or utahs

They are FUCKED

Teno not only has a godly swimspeed, but the attacker cannot hope to trot through water nearly as fast as teno

And if you get too close, you'll get tailslammed to oblivion

[spare badger]

Nice

Imma abuse that

So in jungle gulley tenos are untouchable? Nice

[spare badger]

It makes sense too cause they're supposed to be swamp creatures

Hopefully the future Baryonyx will have teno on its menu

[spare badger]

I like how fast teno is in water
It let me escape some carnos
Unfortunately I clicked the wrong button and didn't tail slam it so it facetanked me

[placid reef]

when you realise utah is the same growth and so much worse

[dusky surge]

yea, utah is better than before, but not good enough

[placid reef]

its still holds everything it was in 3.5 right? (pounce wise)

[signal fable]

I think it does

I havent seen anything leaked being "different" about the Utah

[grave veldt]

Pounce from 3.5 till now hasn’t changed balance wise

It still doesn’t work but yea

[placid reef]

yikes, utah really weak af then, thought they nerfed pounce itself too

[grave veldt]

Nah pounce is honestly not bad

If it could work

Utah itself is just

Not very good

[placid reef]

does it still do 130 dmg?

[grave veldt]

It should

I haven’t seen anything with pounce change balance wise

It just doesn’t work

[wise sparrow]

Wait I just thought of this but, HOW THE FUCK DID THEY GET TO ADULT THEN!?

[grave veldt]

the isle at its very finest

[hollow canyon]

@cedar shore Teno has never 4 shot Carno with bodyshots. If you're talking about headshots then it's already a thing(before you needed 5 headshots).

[grave veldt]

4 shots seems

could u insta combo a carno with that?

[unborn iris]

Technically yes. But the odds of you hitting 4 headshots is a little hard. The one that stuns would have to be a head shot too.

And for some reason teno hitting a headshot on a standing carno seems pretty hard.

[grave veldt]

no i mean like if it were 4 body shots that seems too much

[unborn iris]

Still 5 body shots to kill, though. If they actually upped teno damage back to the original 360.

[hollow canyon]

I've done it before

You don't even need 4 tailslam headshots to kill it

you need 3 tailslam headshots and kick/tailslam - this one can be a bodyshot and it will take the Carno down anyways

The way I did it was by kicking the Carno(I don't even know if it was a headshot or not) and then tailslamming it 3 times over the head. It just went down like that despite the fact that it caught me sitting down and not even looking at the game.

[unborn iris]

Hmm.. you're right. Actually the first one can even be a tail shot.

[hollow canyon]

If you're talking about whether you could instacombo a Carno if Tenonto had enough damage to 4-tap a Carno with bodyshots then the answer is yes, easily

[unborn iris]

Tail slam to the tail would still do 180 right.

[hollow canyon]

I think

Actually wait

I think the base of the tail was 0.25 on Utah

idk about Carno

[grave veldt]

ok yea thats why 4 would be a little too much

[hollow canyon]

It would be way too much

[grave veldt]

yea

[hollow canyon]

I honestly think it's too much right now

[grave veldt]

seems fine honestly carno is a small game hunter

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto is smaller than it

I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be hunted by Carno

not to mention Tenonto shouldn't have much trouble getting away from Carno now

[grave veldt]

never said it cant hunt it

and teno cant rly escape all that well still mainly cuz of its long tail

[unborn iris]

I think utah took less tail damage than other dinos.

[hollow canyon]

It kind of can

[grave veldt]

not exactly

its iffy

it works better if ur slightly not full grown

[hollow canyon]

You might be right, but I genuinely don't remember the locationals for Carno that well

[unborn iris]

For some reason I think most tail modifiers are .5

Yeah. Me either.

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto assuming that it sticks to the area where it's supposed to be should honestly have no trouble getting away from Carno

I will test that when the build goes live

but I'm quite confident that I will be able to get away from it without using the tailslam

[grave veldt]

in jungle, bushes, etc it can escape perfectly fine

[hollow canyon]

I mean maybe but that's not where Tenonto is supposed to be

[grave veldt]

oh wait i forgot

u dont even have to dodge the carno u can cross rivers much faster

[hollow canyon]

yea

you just bail from it easily now

[grave veldt]

theres the threat of deino ofc but water is viable

[hollow canyon]

that's why I'm quite confident that I would be able to run away from a Carno even without attacking it

idk whether it's the right approach since this used to be the best match up in the game but it works

[grave veldt]

even in plains it works honestly but it can get iffy

[hollow canyon]

Wait, do you mean that Tenonto can get away from Carno in the plains?

I genuinely don't see how that would be possible but I haven't tried

[grave veldt]

u cant exactly get away from them but it is possible to dodge them

[alpine plover]

Balance is in a good spot for Carno v Teno

[grave veldt]

it is difficult and ur much better using bushes if u want to escape tho

carno vs teno has always been fun imo

[alpine plover]

Using the charge in an ambush or applying bleed work as options besides just outright brawling them to death

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it's been fun since the MT has started

[hollow canyon]

you'd need to charge the Tenonto 3 times

[grave veldt]

just gonna pretend that teno never existed lol

[alpine plover]

You can stun and get additional bites in

Skewing it in your favour

[hollow canyon]

What do you mean "stun"?

[alpine plover]

Knockback charge

[hollow canyon]

Right, you charge it and then get 2 bites in

what then?

that takes out ~600 hp

[alpine plover]

From the get go, you have the edge in the fight

[hollow canyon]

I don't see how that gives you much edge

[alpine plover]

Now having much more progress and less chances for the Teno to make mistakes

[hollow canyon]

It's irrelevant since Tenonto can combo you from 100 down to 10% or 0% health

[grave veldt]

head multiplier is 1.5 right

[hollow canyon]

Yea

[grave veldt]

alr

[hollow canyon]

it's 262.5dmg per headshot

[alpine plover]

It's pretty rare for that to happen in practice, even then
It can be fixed with stun adjustments, rather than reworking values that are issues that are based on the stun itself

[hollow canyon]

It is because Carnos have to charge the Tenonto now

Charging it repeatedly gives it much less of a chance to combo you from 100 to 0

[grave veldt]

although then again teno is slower then carno cant run it down and its limited to 10 tail slams

[hollow canyon]

Carno stops with a delay if you tailslam it mid charge

this thing saves it

if it wasn't for that it would be over after one tailslam

Back in the day the tailslam stopped Carno in tracks straight away

[alpine plover]

Still a good thing imo
Using more of a creatures utilities makes the matchup more enticing to engage for both parties

[hollow canyon]

It's a w/e thing and since I've considered Carno charge a pretty bad ability from the get go I don't think it's a good thing, this makes the game far less interesting imo

I both preferred brawling Carnos and brawling Tenontos

[alpine plover]

How so?

[hollow canyon]

Seemed far more interesting than looking at a weird jousting tournmanet

where one animal runs away from the other to run in a straight line at it

hoping the other one doesn't move away fast enough and doesn't hit it mid-charge

from what I've seen in this match up so far it seemed absolutely dull on videos

[alpine plover]

Well imo not everything needs to be brawling from that lens
Other carni's can provide that like Cera and Allo, and look more natural doing it.

[hollow canyon]

I mean I'd be fine with that I guess if I had Cerato in the game then

Although Idk

[alpine plover]

Seeing Carno's rely on hit and run's and use their speed gives it personality, and is less homegized from the other theropods

[hollow canyon]

I think this whole playstyle of running in a straight line is atrociously boring

[alpine plover]

Another thing people talked about was that people often thought that Carno played like a "bigger Utah"

[grave veldt]

brawling carno just takes away what carnos niche is supposed to be

[hollow canyon]

Carno's niche is supposed to be a small game hunter in the plains

I think it's pretty atrocious at small game hunting

and it has been for a long time now

Tenonto was ironically probably the best opponent for it

Utah was ok, I can't speak about Pachy because I haven't really fought them as a Carno

and I don't think I've ever cared to grow a Pachy

Right now I don't think Carno is any good at hunting smalls at all

they are way too agile for it after the turn rate nerf

let me rephrase that - they should be way too agile for it

[alpine plover]

What would you propose to remedy Carno from being proficient at it's niche then?

[hollow canyon]

I'd revert its agility nerf, as simple as that, its biteforce can stay

it's not meant to be hunting big stuff

and with this biteforce it's not going to

tune down its bleed too if possible

it's not meant to be bleeding stuff

I genuinely don't believe that a Utah that cared to stay alive would die to a Carno even prior to the agility nerf of the latter

[fresh laurel]

how about we dont revert but just do a small buff

[hollow canyon]

I haven't died that way a single time

[golden coral]

I would ask: what are the "small game" that the carno is meant to hunt good at doing? And what then, does the carno need to be able to do better to provide a threat and competent hunter for said small game?

[alpine plover]

Even if that was the case, There's not a lot of small game for the Carno to really apply itself

Except for juvies or Utah's

[hollow canyon]

Utah, Pachy and Tenonto - that's enough

It can't hunt Dryos and imo it shouldn't

[wintry anchor]

can I just say that the devs need to be doing this more instead of just going for polar opposites

[alpine plover]

I agree with this as well

The small adjustments recently are a direction that needs to be kept

[wintry anchor]

definitely

[hollow canyon]

I spoke about that a couple of times now - Dondi mentioned back in the legacy days, right before the recode happened that the devs should now be able to release balance changes whenever they want without having the need to wipe the servers or do any other nasty stuff

this is what we need

just small balance changes taking place rather often to see what makes the animal feel "right"

The fact that we had a broken Tenonto for so long is just absolutely weird

[alpine plover]

In your case Aken, Carno does need some adjustment to your argument

Rather than buffing Carno's hp, bleed, or charge to have ridiculous capabilities

[hollow canyon]

I don't think Carno needs any of that

charge is imo a bad idea for this animal altogether

but I can see why the devs went for it

[alpine plover]

It's an example. How adjustments work better than raw buffs that aren't that applicable to problem solving

[hollow canyon]

its looks make it seem like a good choice but it genuinely just doesn't work well for what this animal is supposed to do

The thing is that I don't think there was really any problem that had to be solved on Carno's part - it was the other animals that needed to get fixed

E.g. Tenonto being fodder as it was

it needed a buff, that was clear

[grave veldt]

i still think the main issue is how fast carno reaches top speed

[hollow canyon]

Utah being a walking, borking meme

it takes the longest time out of all the small animals to reach the top speed

it's 3 seconds

compared to 2 on Utah

let me put it this way

which animal in your view the pre-nerf Carno oppressed?

[wintry anchor]

What i've always imagined for carno is its charge should be its prime move. you charge out of the tree line break the ribs of a dino then finish it off

[grave veldt]

well clearly teno but that was mainly cuz teno was just not good

[hollow canyon]

See? My point exactly

[grave veldt]

pachy needed a better turn and it got that

[hollow canyon]

Utah can get away from it, it pretty much always could

Pachy - yea it needed a better turn rate

it got that

I haven't tested this match up at all

so I can't speak about it

[alpine plover]

Tbh, the issue of Carno being oppresive also was because of the desync

[hollow canyon]

but I don't think that Pachy should be bad enough at turning to not get away from Carno the way Utah does

[alpine plover]

Wasn't fun being sniped by Carno's

[unborn iris]

100% this

[grave veldt]

oh yea getting sniped by carnos sucked

ofc thats a game issue not a carno one

[alpine plover]

And it gave the impression that Carno was downright impossible to avoid in any other circumstance

Though it was only a game issue

[hollow canyon]

Desync on QA is a whole different story, it might be the reason why Utah is this bad too

[alpine plover]

That still exists

[grave veldt]

quite frankly

i dont think it'll ever go away

[hollow canyon]

I've spoken to some of the QAs and they were unable to replicate some of the issues with pounce on servers that weren't lagging

[alpine plover]

Unless they do a code writing update

It'll stay

[hollow canyon]

Btw when you talk about Carno "sniping" things

are you talking about the charge

or bites?

[alpine plover]

Charge and bite

I've had it happen to me

[hollow canyon]

Because I've heard the latter has an issue where it stretches too wide to the sides

Idk if it's a bug or desync

[alpine plover]

Yeah, if the game's code worked completely okay and the server connection was never faulty

You'd be right, I'd never die to a Carno

But with those factors in mind

Carno's did frequently feel oppresive

[hollow canyon]

Well... I have never died to a Carno that I didn't try to fight as a Utah

and pretty much to everyone that I did decide to fight

[unborn iris]

What else were you supposed to fight.

[hollow canyon]

As a Utah?

[grave veldt]

example of desync

[hollow canyon]

1v1?

Definitely not a Carno lol

[unborn iris]

Servers were herbis hidden in some corner of the map growing or carebearing. Or utahs and carnos.

What else were you going to do.

Go hunt dryo AI

[alpine plover]

If I had your connection(?) and circumstances, I'd be able to say the same.

[hollow canyon]

Yea but in this case the question is whether it's ok to build the game around the fact that it doesn't work properly

the devs clearly don't want that

[unborn iris]

In the perfect ecosystem, yes.. you are probably better off avoiding carnos. But with this roster in 3.5.. that's all you were really going to run into as a utah.

[hollow canyon]

since they refused to buff Utah

despite the fact that its pounce is garbage

and pretty much everyone agreed that it's the pounce that has to be fixed

instead of Utah getting an otherwise not necessarily needed buff

[alpine plover]

Surprisingly it was unanimous from the community

[hollow canyon]

(although to be fair I really don't think that Utah would get too oppressive if its biteforce went up a bit).

[alpine plover]

It wouldn't

[hollow canyon]

that's even if its pounce worked as intended

[grave veldt]

wouldnt be bad at 75 something like that

[hollow canyon]

In general I really dislike the idea that any animal should be build fully around its special ability

the bites should do stuff too

[alpine plover]

Pachy's and Teno's can still doom it
Stego's and Carno's have desync to support them
Deino has it's water

[hollow canyon]

Utah should bite smalls and pounce big stuff

I mean my view is that the terrestrial carnivores are just really bad right now

Utah should get buffed up to 500hp and have its biteforce increased

I'd probably nerf its pounce

while at it

[alpine plover]

I feel that Carno should use the charge as a tool in combat against larger opponents, but never as a complete reliance on
And it can run down and try to nab the smaller critters

[hollow canyon]

In theory perhaps yea

but

in practice you shouldn't really be able to do that with its current turn rate

at least I can't even imagine getting hit by a Carno now

as one of the smaller animals

[alpine plover]

With the desync you can

But that has not much to do with Carno by itself

I actually think

All updates need to be paused

To figure out the desync and optimization

[hollow canyon]

Idk about that, it's just something that will keep on breaking imo

Desync gets better and worse all the time

[alpine plover]

The point of the recode was to have a game not riddled by messy code so they could properly build upon to realize the project

Or at least breaks post updates and be told that they're happening

[hollow canyon]

And yea looking at that Pachy video it's just... idk how to describe it

[alpine plover]

Because we get the impression the game's code only degenerates ever moreso

[hollow canyon]

but it's just a part of the game in its current state

I remember once upon a time swimming across a river

[alpine plover]

Without other information other than theorycrafting

[hollow canyon]

walking on land

being pretty far from the water

and teleporting back into the water, to a Deino holding me in its jaws

[dusky surge]

I uh, think that desync is more on the fact that people from across the globe are going to other servers and bringing horrid lag. I should know, I'm australian

[hollow canyon]

that was one of the biggest "wat?" moments I had in this game

It might be

[dusky surge]

Also sadlion, don't you play on AU as someone who's like across the fucking globe

[alpine plover]

Honestly

There's quite a lot of things to warrant the negativity(not the toxic kind) and criticism

[grave veldt]

perhaps

Actually I just use it as a backbone

if I cant play other servers ill go to au1

[alpine plover]

Like the roster choices, the sucky map, desync and optimization making my pc do work, diets, fractures being nowhere done
Balance was the icing on the cake for a storm

Thank god this didn't reach the live yet

[dusky surge]

Okay, you really can't do much about the roster lmao

[alpine plover]

Yeah you can't

That's what sucks

You either have a boring stego that does nothing but chill

Or a watered down one

[dusky surge]

I mean, I'd say our current steg is watered down, same with the deino

[alpine plover]

mmm

[pulsar ember]

are carno canni or?

[dusky surge]

atm, yes

[alpine plover]

Nah, it could be watered down even moreso if we were to acheive perfect balance with the "current" roster rather than the far off future one

But the issue stems with that we have a bunch of squares fitting into circles atm

Despite that

With the current balance

I would've liked that Carno had a different weakness imo

If it had trouble dealing with bleed

You might actually feel urgent danger while playing Carno, other than diving headfirst into a Teno/Stego

[dusky surge]

I mean, issue is, you can't give it a NEGATIVE bleed resist

It legit has no bleed resist, like the rest of the roster

[alpine plover]

THEN REWORK IT

Goddamnit lmao

I kind've liked Legacy's bleed ngl

The super amped numbers made it suck though

[dusky surge]

Man, carno does bleed out faster tho

Bleed is significantly increased by movement

Carno spends all its time running around

More you move = more you bleed

[alpine plover]

I still think bleed needs more adjustments and additions

Search up blood loss symptoms and the ideas start flowing in

[golden coral]

I'd wonder why there is no bleed "stat" that can be adjusted?

[dusky surge]

I mean bleed has several uses atm, it reduces stam regen and health regen and can be used for tracking.

[dusky surge]

wdym by that

[alpine plover]

Oh right

[golden coral]

Bleed handling/"resistance". So you could make x dino take more bleed damage running than y dino. Like in legacy?

[alpine plover]

How do we determine that

[dusky surge]

There is different blood pools (same as HP and weight) and bleed resist per animal

[alpine plover]

So there is bleed resist

[golden coral]

So perhaps give the "baseline" some bleed resist then, if you can't give negative

That way carno for example would still handle it worse

[dusky surge]

only deino has it

[golden coral]

As Nacen said, if you could give carno problems handling bleed, especially handling it while running perhaps, compared to another critter

Then bleed would shut down a carno a lot easier than say, a teno, if the teno could run better despite bleeding, and so on

[dusky surge]

I mean, it does technically work that way atm. Carno is more reliant on sprinting than teno, who focuses their stam more on their attacks

And because carno has a shitty stam regen unless resting and burns stam quick, it also suffers from the fact that bleed goes longer the less food/water/HP /stam you have and the fact that bleed harms regen of both HP and stam

[alpine plover]

Hmm

But with all that
Could bleed be seen as something effectively is "counterplay" to a Carno?

[dusky surge]

If utah didn't suck fucking ass then probably

[alpine plover]

How much bleed does Utah do?

[dusky surge]

If a utah gets a full pounce on a carno and the carno doesn't slow down, it can legit fucking keel over and die.

From bleed

A single utah

[alpine plover]

Right, and but that depends on if the pounce works, The carno burns their stam. And if the player in question actually lands it, while attaining a full pounce

I personally think that being shocked from a "full pounce" might be a wrong way to look at things

Since anyone with a brain will press "e" to buck and negate the pounce in mere seconds

Either forcing the Utah to a really short pounce, or dooming it.

Should bleed do slight bonus damage?

[dusky surge]

True, however, you get a lot of utahs, and it quickly becomes more problematic. The more utahs that pounce you, the more stam it costs to buck

[dusky surge]

?

[alpine plover]

gimme a sec

one of the symptoms of blood loss is pains

Or another thing to consider is that you could reduce the amount of damage of the base bite force since bloodloss creates muscle weakness

It could be done through a gradual process of losing blood after a certain percentage

Rapid bloodloss like through sprinting could have a daze or darkening effect like drowning

[dusky surge]

Yea but the thing is, legacy bleed was fuckin' hated, and EVRIMA bleed works ENTIRELY differently

[alpine plover]

It was hated because how overbearing it became, and there wasn't much depth to the mechanic

Sometimes invalidating entire playables

We also didn't have mud pools or bleed clotting

[dusky surge]

Yea however, new bleed is completely seperate from HP

integrating the two would be fucking annoying to do

[alpine plover]

To heal bleed, you'd have to heal the entire status effect to go down zero

If there was blood clotting

People would've felt much more differently about it

[alpine plover]

integrating two?

bleed can still be readjusted or changed

It's just still lackluster atm

[dusky surge]

Eh

I kinda like the bleed system and don't like it being completely changed to be more like legacy

[alpine plover]

I don't feel like I'm ever using it

Or at least, it doesn't have the intended impact as it should

[hollow canyon]

It was hated because its values were just completely messed up and created a situation where animals were completely forced to sit in a single pot for a long time waiting for it to heal otherwise they'd just die.

The fact that you only needed a given number of bites to bleed something out was another issue.

it made the game really simple

[dusky surge]

exactly the problem i have with this concept tho

[hollow canyon]

and kind of stupid

But it's not the concept

[dusky surge]

since bleeding is slowed by not moving

[hollow canyon]

that's the values

[dusky surge]

we're going to have another issue where you simply don't move to avoid taking damage

[hollow canyon]

If I had access to balancing the legacy I could easily do it so that bleed wouldn't work like that

it's really not that hard

you can do a number of things

a/ you can decrease the bleed of every animal to make it an auxiliary mechanic in killing

b/ you can increase the bleed healing per tick to make it so that animals aren't sure to die after getting bitten

this would make it so that you have to reapply the bleed multiple times to them before they bleed out

the concept of legacy bleed was alright, it's the balancing of it that was the issue

putting such high numbers on dinos' bleed output while keeping their bleed healing low made this system really annoying to deal with

but it's not a conceptual issue, merely a balance one

The current bleed imo just feels and plays worse than the legacy one, it's not really an auxiliary mechanic for killing, it's more so a second health bar

it is an attrition tool same as in the legacy but it just feels bad

the fact that it decreases health regeneration is probably the biggest meme btw

[dusky surge]

i'm fine with EVRIMA bleed doing more mechanically, just not damaging main HP

[hollow canyon]

I think it should absolutely damage the main hp pool

let me put it this way: why does this mechanic even impact health regen

if it doesn't actually kill via removing health?

Do Utahs care about reducing Stego's health regen when they're attrition hunting it?

No, because what kills it is the lack of blood

[dusky surge]

Okay, but that's like if I, a rex, took TONS of blunt damage to get to low health, then took a small cut, started bleeding, and apparently that small bloodloss killed me

[hollow canyon]

I mean... it would be really unfortunate but honestly that seems like a really far fetched scenario

like it's probably the cut that would kill you in this case

bloodloss can be outright negated in Evrima

via wallowing and sitting

[dusky surge]

neither one of those actually completely stops the bleed

[hollow canyon]

no

both at once

stop it completely or at least they used to stop it completely

sitting itself doesn't

and wallowing itself doesn't

[dusky surge]

still doesn't stop it, it just makes it a REALLY low amount

[hollow canyon]

well the point stands

it would take a really very weird and specific scenario in which a tiny amount of bleed would kill you

I think the current bleed is just vastly inferior as a mechanic

[dusky surge]

Still think it's silly.

Just make bleed have its own set of unique mechanics outside of "regen nerfs"

[hollow canyon]

as I said - if I'm a Carno and I'm being pounced by a Utah - do you know what's the least of my worries? That my HP regen just tanked.

I mean you could but you'd have to come up with those mechanics first

I genuinely don't like this idea of a second health bar that affects things in a very subtle way

And yes I agree that legacy bleed did have its down-sides but I still believe that they were mainly caused by the powercreep of this mechanic

I don't know how long you've played the game for but

[dusky surge]

IDK man, feels like if we go down the route of "bleed harms base HP", venom and bleed are going to be pretty much the same but with different flavours

[hollow canyon]

earlier on having 15 bleed was a tonne

I think venoms are supposed to do other stuff

I don't want to discuss it with you since you're a QA

and I don't want you to say something you shouldn't be saying

but

[dusky surge]

What does QA have to do with anything?

Don't worry mate

[hollow canyon]

I'm pretty sure they were supposed to do different stuff

Dilo making you hallucinate

[dusky surge]

Yep

[hollow canyon]

I don't know whether it's even supposed to deal damage at all

[dusky surge]

So we have:
Standard bleed
Hallucination bleed
Vomit bleed

I just think let bleed be bleed

And have venom be tick damage to base HP

[hollow canyon]

The thing is - venom irl very often works on blood

getting bitten by many vipers causes blood to thicken or coagulate in the vessels

I don't know whether Dilo will remain its role as a bleeder with venom that helps bleeding

or if it will just attack the hp of the target

it's hard to speculate at this point

[dusky surge]

True. However, this could also be made interesting with say, megalania, as the irl komodo has venom that's an anti-coagulant, thus it could use its venom to ALSO damage bleed pools much more effectively.

[hollow canyon]

yea, exactly

We will see how it works but I'm not particularly enthusiastic about the current bleed

[dusky surge]

However, if this venom damages blood pools and HP pools, and the HP pools are damaged by blood pools, mega would be fuckin' ANNOYING

[hollow canyon]

especially the health regen debuff is just weird

it's like an additional kick in the shins

after winning a fight you just sit there regenerating health longer

at the same time during the fight it does nothing

because bleeders don't kill via removing the HP of their target

[dusky surge]

Then it would be better for long-game hunting, right?

[hollow canyon]

Would it though? You want your target to run out of blood, not hp

Assuming you're e.g. a Utah

unless other bleeders are heavily damage based

that would be fine I guess

e.g. if Giga hunted sauropods via attrition hunting

by applying bleed and not bleeding them out but just stopping their regen

and slowly chipping away at their hp

I guess that works?

[dusky surge]

Personally, I think if they wanted to make utah a bleeder, it should do more, you know, bleeding. Its pounce is its only bleed tool, why not let its bite also do more bleed than normal to make up for low damage

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it would be a bad idea tbh

I thought about that

I don't think the devs wanted to make Utah a bleeder btw

it was a community suggestion

one I disagreed with

and I still do

I'd have reworked pounce slightly differently

instead of making it so that it applies bleed instead of raw damage I would just make it so that its damage output is reliant on how long a Utah is attached to you

In other words we would avoid the problem of Utahs nuking things down with their pounce the way they used to do in update 2

and it would make it an attrition hunter because Utahs would have to pounce the target multiple times so as to avoid running out of stamina

but they'd kill via damage not bleed

that's how I see this animal

I also thought that perhaps having more Utahs on a single target could increase the stamina cost of bucking

meaning that if you're pounced by a single Utah you can buck it off rather easily but if 4 sit on you bucking starts to drain your stamina quite heavily

[dusky surge]

that's already a thing

like that is already in the game

[hollow canyon]

I kind of suspected that it might be

but

I actually didn't get to test it

ever

since pounce is kind of buggy

I don't even remember when the last time that I fought Utahs was

[dusky surge]

4 utahs on a stego can decay it pretty heavily, I think it can lose like almost half its stam?

[hollow canyon]

interesting

I think that might be a bit too good if we ever have the pounce working properly

just my guess though

taking out half the stamina would leave it at only 12 swings

that + the bleed affecting its stamina regen sounds pretty strong

[dusky surge]

Exactly

And I think the bleed per sec for utahs pounce is fuckin' crazy. Honestly, if the utahs all coordinate and pounce at the right times, they can make it that the stego becomes pretty helpless

However, the stego can still, you know, beat them to death in one blow

[hollow canyon]

Yea and from what I could see the issue is that it can sometimes do that while they're latched onto it

or at least that was a thing prior to this patch

idk about now

[dusky surge]

im just waiting to see trike v utah pack lmao

that's going to be fucking terrifying for the trike

tbh utah atm seems to be designed to face ceratopsins

which is great because we have zero of those atm lmao

when you have an animal that attacks the flanks vs an animal which keeps all its defences to the front of it and has an extremely large body, seems pretty good for the utah

[spare badger]

damn im lovin the balance changes

diets are fulfilling, teno isn't useless, carno isn't rex

i actually had fun playing the game

now they gotta optimize it tho, still getting half the frames than i used to

[ornate sage]

How strong is an AI teno i cant even kill it as a full grown utah

and my pounce makes me bounce off haha

yay pounce worked

Utah needs a damage buff with bites

i bit that teno over 100 times and nothing lol

[placid reef]

we get utah that kills trike in 5 sec like in JWE2

[hollow canyon]

"Teno isn't useless" might be an underestatement of the century.

Also the idea that it should kill Carno in 4 tailslams is just completely absurd. You'd have the tailslam deal almost as much damage as Deino's bite? Seriously? We're talking about an animal that is smaller than Carno and takes between Utah and Carno in terms of growth.

[dusky surge]

honestly, i think deino's bite is woefully underpowered, but it works well with our current roster, just like I think stego would be weak in the completed roster

but yea, 4 shotting a carno?

Actually

.... I think it can 4 shot a carno

[placid reef]

isnt that the idea? to be the weakest apex?

[dusky surge]

not at all

thats a ridiculous idea

stego is meant to be the smallest apex, far from the weakest

the thagomizer is meant to be one of the most brutal damage attacks in the game

[hollow canyon]

It almost threeshots it if you land headshots

I'm assuming they're talking about 4shotting with attacks on the body

[dusky surge]

but back to the point, you can do 525 damage to the head with the tail slam, doing the maths. 1800/525 = 3-something

so basically

yea, teno can fuck carno up

[hollow canyon]

which would require the tailslam to do 450+ dmg

[dusky surge]

yea that'd be fucked

teno already does an ABSURD amount of damage for an animal its size

[hollow canyon]

to say that it "can" do that is a euphemism really

Tenonto should win against Carno

every single time now

just based on numbers this shouldn't be even a close fight

4-5 taps against 11+ bites

[dusky surge]

However, MOBILITY

[wise sparrow]

Teno should win vs carno not utterly destroy it

[hollow canyon]

Teno has good mobility atm

If you keep to where it's intended to reside you shouldn't even have to fight Carnos

literally just walk into water and they can just wave at you with their tiny hands

Atm this animal can either defeat a Carno if it wants or get away from it(if it wants).

[wise sparrow]

Two words. Radish. Root.

It almost never spawns in wetlands so teno is vulnerable when going for it

[hollow canyon]

That sounds like more of an issue with its spawn points than anything else - it's supposed to spawn in all the land biomes

But yea I didn't see it in the wetlands either

[placid reef]

do deinos even live in swamps rn?

[hollow canyon]

No - they should but I haven't seen one in that area since... early update 3?

I've travelled there once as a Deino in 3.5 and honestly that felt like the biggest waste of time during my entire Deino gameplay.

[placid reef]

damn, i once did the great travel trough shallow river to the west side with someone else

[wise sparrow]

I saw one there it was a sub and thought it could take on 7 full tenos. Spoiler alert, it couldn't

[placid reef]

i really hope they make deino into a mainly swamp and deep river(so like the ones connected to swamps) dino

i went to a swamp once too since there was like 0 people there

[carmine spindle]

gotta have swamps somewhere where other dinos have to go to drink though

the issue I had as deino is that i never saw anything other than fish (and other deinos)

[placid reef]

bc no other dino had inscentive to go there

diets will fix that and if they make deino want to go there and also not have so many shallows, there should be abalance between shallow piscivores and deep water ones

[hollow canyon]

Because Deino is a garbage playable. Every other animal "wins" against Deino by not interacting with it.

[wise sparrow]

Crocs just aren't good playables

[hollow canyon]

As long as you're not up against morons you will not get to interact with any dinosaurs because any person who has any clue as to how Deino operates will not drink in any spots where you are likely to right click them to end the creature they've been working for for however many hours.

Yea they aren't - the devs have said that they were working on making Deino's gameplay more interesting

but honestly - I don't think they succeeded at that one bit.

[barren oracle]

If deino wants to live in swamps gotta remove the stupid amount of plant cover

[carmine spindle]

as long as players no where not to go, the devs are gonna have their work cut out for them imo - i don't think you can really force an interaction

it's just gonna be deino br in the rivers

[dusky surge]

i disagree with this sentiment, they're pretty interesting as concepts. However, it was absolutely a mistake to add the most aquatic animal before even building an aquatic ecosystem

[wise sparrow]

I mean from a balancing perspective. Either dinos have shallows and deino cant interact with anyone or there are few shallows and hours of work can be lost cause someone clicks right click once

[dusky surge]

i mean, this is why i wanted sucho instead of ptera

deals with growing deinos while sticking more to shallows and not interfering too heavily in the affairs of the land animals

[placid reef]

bary works too

[dusky surge]

ehhhh

bary is small

and would spend more time on the land than near shallows

[placid reef]

i mean in the current roster, bary makes more sense, with the 2 apex/pseudos we have rn

[dusky surge]

it wouldn't bring risk to the shallows, since a carno could easily fuck it up

nor would it bring risk to the deinos, because again, small

Fuck man, it's literally smaller than a tenonto

[placid reef]

maybe, but then again, what is barys niche

[dusky surge]

I think it's supposed to be able to be both very adept aquatically as it is on land

[placid reef]

and what would be suchos competition? in general adding such big creatures rn was a really poor decision by them

[dusky surge]

deino and sucho equal each other out. Kind of a natural bicker brawl between these two oversized animals

since they aren't fast enough to terrorise the land creatures, and with a smaller roster, sucho and deino would fight amongst themselves and cull their own populations

basically the aquatics would go in the opposite direction from land animals, starting VERY big and going down

a spino would obviously be too big for this juncture, so a sucho is the next best thing

[spare badger]

Bary would be a teno rival, both living in swamps. It should be able to be its own again at a carno, and swim faster than teno

Sucho would be a threat to all non adult deinos, and anything that goes near the water, shallow or not

[barren oracle]

I want bary tho

[spare badger]

Both would be good for this roster

[barren oracle]

Bary can be small and fast plus maybe they could add some streams around the place

[sinful cove]

Baryonix looks no better at swimming than an allo

[sinful cove]

Look at his body

[placid reef]

if its faster in water thna teno (which imo shouldnt) thne teno needs to be faster on land

[spare badger]

Bary isn't that small

[sinful cove]

He has no swimming adaptions

[hollow canyon]

With your latest suggestion Bary wouldn't be so much a "Tenonto rival" but a Tenonto punching bag. Even the current Tenonto would absolutely wipe the floor with Baryonyx unless they give Bary some surprise buff

[spare badger]

Hmmm

[hollow canyon]

It's an animal that's smaller than Tenonto

[spare badger]

They seem like they'd interact often cause bary is a more land based spinosaurid and would inhabit similar places

Maybe not a rival but def a threat to the babies

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto currently demolishes Carno with 4-5 tailslama, Bary would survive 2-3 at best

It very likely dies to third/fourth tailslam depending on where those tailslams land

[barren oracle]

shhhhhhh

[placid reef]

bary is just inbetween spino and sucho in terms of niche

[hollow canyon]

if all of them are headshots - Bary just dies to the third tailslam that lands on it

[spare badger]

Yea so juvie tenos would be on its diets probably

Seeing as it ate juvie Iguanadon in life

[sinful cove]

Bary should be either faster or more agile than tenonto on land to account for it probably being weaker but it has no business swimming faster

[hollow canyon]

Why not?

[sinful cove]

It is built like a terrestrial

[hollow canyon]

It's also supposed to hang around the water

[sinful cove]

Its a wader

[placid reef]

imo bary should swim equal while beeing better on land

[spare badger]

Doesn't mean it's a bad swimmer

[sinful cove]

It isnt built to swim

[hollow canyon]

So? Tenonto isn't build like an aquatic either and yet somehow it's allowed to swim ridiculously fast

[placid reef]

it has a paddle of a tail tho

[sinful cove]

Tenonto has a huge ass muscular tail that can propel it

[spare badger]

Cause they both have a swamp/plains niche

[sinful cove]

Bary is built like any other land theropod but with a fish catcher face

[hollow canyon]

No, Tenonto's tail isn't used to propel it

[placid reef]

niche wont mean much if it makes no sense

[hollow canyon]

not at all

[spare badger]

Okok so they swim a similar speed

Teno faster then

[hollow canyon]

The fact that it has a vertically elongated tail doesn't make it a swimmer, it doesn't use its tail to propel itself by moving it to the sides, matter of fact it just moves it up and down.

[placid reef]

its tail is def large enough to work as a paddle

[barren oracle]

Bary looks cool in water

[hollow canyon]

But it doesn't work as a paddle

[sinful cove]

Yes, it is

[barren oracle]

teno doesnt need to be faster in water aswell

[hollow canyon]

Teno should be fast in water

[spare badger]

Teno is meant to live in swamps, rivers and plains
Bary should too, being the most land based spinosaurid of the 3

[hollow canyon]

I just don't see why Bary shouldn't be

[sinful cove]

It can definitely work to propel it in water more than generic theropod body can

[placid reef]

imo it should be the same but more agile on land

bary i mean

[hollow canyon]

Yea

Idk it depends on what its diet and niche are

but if it's meant to hang around water it should be a decent swimmer

[placid reef]

but generaly it would be weaker thna teno so makes sense to be able to disengage easier

[hollow canyon]

^

[sinful cove]

Plus a quadruped is typically better for swimming with few exceptions

[spare badger]

Do bary is like a mix of Utah and cera? With hints of sucho

[sinful cove]

It should be faster than teno on land or it will be fodder but it is a wading animal

[hollow canyon]

It's a smaller Sucho

[barren oracle]

Its swimming speed rn is ok

[placid reef]

maybe make it a tad slower in water thna teno to really hint at the dif in adaptations, both semi aquatic but one more so thna the other

[hollow canyon]

likely capable of reaching higher speeds

[spare badger]

Eats fish, juvie tenos, juvie deinos, beipi

[spare badger]

It's less derived, longer legs

[placid reef]

i'd like if we get some inbetween shallows and deep, would be amazing for austro, beipi and bary for ex, and stuff like cherry can be there too from time to time

[spare badger]

A marsh?

[hollow canyon]

I mean... perhaps it has longer legs?

It's not a really big difference for sure

[placid reef]

smth like that ye

[hollow canyon]

They are relatively longer but nothing too crazy

[placid reef]

would love such a biome

[spare badger]

Bary isn't as water based as sucho and spino so it living in the same biomes as teno seems the most reasonable
It'll avoid them and should be faster
But definitely should be the number 1 threat to the juveniles

[sinful cove]

That looks like a hot cherry biome

[spare badger]

Not too difficult to balance

[placid reef]

as it would be not as deep as rivers but still ot shallows could be a great place for beipi, austro, sucho, barry etc

[sinful cove]

In almost every depiction i see of cherry he is in open wetlands like that

[placid reef]

spino beeing much larger would stay more in swamps where deinos are, cherry and sucho too

[sinful cove]

Very fitting

[spare badger]

A great biome for semi aquatics

[barren oracle]

You guys remember bary in hope trailer

better be a feature

[sinful cove]

Wasnt that sucho

[spare badger]

That was a sucho

[sinful cove]

Bary is getting remodeled

[spare badger]

Uea

[barren oracle]

Eh

same thing

Feature +

[spare badger]

If it were ready it would be in already 100% cause it fits their "small dinos but not too small" thing they have

And would slide into update 3

[sinful cove]

Maybe they could focus and spot elite fish through the water with a sense

[barren oracle]

Bary is such a good boi

[placid reef]

def sucho

[barren oracle]

Oh i was just blind i guess

But still same thing i want