balance-feedback-discussion

[hollow canyon]

They aren't huge just compared to legacy

They were just huge - Carno's biteforce was 350N whilst Deino's bite was only at 500N

Can you imagine what kind of absurd biteforce T.rex would need to have?

It would have to go over 1k if it was meant to be able to oneshot a Utah with a bodyshot

That would mean it would be 4 shotting a Stego

it was a terrible base for the future balance

[versed rune]

but in relation to its opponents, carno's 350 bite force worked. it 3 shot utah. idk the exact numbers against teno but carno and teno both had to be careful in their matchup

if you nerfed utah's hp to say 900, you could drop carnos bite to 300

[hollow canyon]

I had the calculation for their match up somewhere

[versed rune]

because the consensus is that carno should 3 shot utah with bite

[hollow canyon]

You would go up to 4 bites then just fyi

The health regen is constant - it would heal some hp between Carno performs 3 bites making it survive those 3 attacks

[versed rune]

i mean im gonna be honest, rex probably should 4 shot a stego

but the way stego functions right now, stego would get trashed.

[hollow canyon]

As for Tenonto vs Carno, they used to 6shot each other

now they both need more attacks

iirc Carno needs 9 bites atm

[versed rune]

how much hp did teno used to have

[hollow canyon]

360N

on the tailslam

I'm not 100% sure about other attacks

[versed rune]

no i mean teno's hp

[hollow canyon]

2k both Teno and Carno

[versed rune]

ok so yea 6 each with body hits

[hollow canyon]

Yea they both needed 6 attacks

in theory that is

The current match up is problematic because Tenonto needs stamina to perform this attack and it doesn't have enough in the tank to go on for very long, coupled with the fact that its damage is simply just too low

I'd personally buff Utah's hp to 500 and Tenonto's tailslam to 300N

it should fix most issues

well some of the issues

[versed rune]

im gonna be honest, on paper it sounds absurd, but the 6 body shots to kill for both kinda worked when put in practice. it was not perfect and you could certainly make the case for damage reductions of both animals

what is teno's slam right now??

[hollow canyon]

250N

[versed rune]

what the fuck

thats so low holy--

[hollow canyon]

Let me just point out one issue with the 6 attacks to kill

This number only applies if we're talking about bodyhits

In my experience as a Tenonto after landing one attack

I'd just slam the head of the Carno 3 times

I had situations where I just sent them to the grave

with a single combo

exactly because of that

[versed rune]

yeah thats why i said you could make an argument to change the values

bascially what im arguing for is something in between then and now

[hollow canyon]

I mean - Tenonto has to hurt a Carno enough to make it think twice about whether it wants to continue the fight after a single combo

[versed rune]

cause now everything is much too weak

[hollow canyon]

but it shouldn't be comboing it down to zero after a single combo

[versed rune]

the thing is with carno is that carno should be raw offense

[hollow canyon]

Also - just based on certain things that I've heard about Tenonto I suspect that it might be bugged

[versed rune]

because if you give carno too much defensive capabilities it makes it OP

we're seeing that now

[hollow canyon]

I've been told about situations where Carno gets hit 6-7 times while tailriding a Tenonto

[versed rune]

it can tank several hits from a teno with very small consequences

[hollow canyon]

which should absolutely take a Carno down

[wraith galleon]

those last 2 feedbacks are painful to look at

[hollow canyon]

if you're behind a Tenonto and it starts tailslamming

even with 250N

it will kill you with 6 slams

let me rephrase that - it should kill you because of the headshot multiplier

[versed rune]

carno should be the epitome of a glass cannon simply due to how much control carno inherently has as the fastest carnivore

[hollow canyon]

With this damage Tenonto should be taking a Carno out with 5 headshots

but from what I'm hearing it doesn't actually happen

[versed rune]

i think a fair number for teno tail slams is 4 headshots to kill, 5 body shots

against carno

[hollow canyon]

4 tailslams and you get back to Tenonto comboing Carno from 100 to 0

[versed rune]

cause any less and the stun is long enough to kill in one combo

well the max teno can land in one stun is 3 slams right?

[hollow canyon]

yea

[versed rune]

or is a fourth possible

[hollow canyon]

No

the third one isn't always possible either

[versed rune]

ok, so 4 headshots, 5 body shots to kill a carno is fair

[hollow canyon]

You'd need to deal more damage than Tenonto did before the nerf to kill Carno with 5 bodyshots

360N Teno deals exactly entire Carno's health after 5 bodyshots

the issue is that - again - regen will save a Carno

so you'd have to do more

[versed rune]

but carno's health is 1800 now

[hollow canyon]

Yea 1800/360=5

but there's regen taking place between those hits

so it will have a sliver of health left after those 5 tailslams

[versed rune]

so are you thinking 5 headshots, 6 bodyshots instead?

[hollow canyon]

Oh no, I think 4 headshots might be fine

Let me calculate a sensible damage for Tenonto

I will try to come up with something

310 would mean that you take out a Carno with 4 headshots, 6 bodyshots

Alternatively 300 flat would leave a Carno with a sliver of health after those attacks(it would die to a single bite)

[versed rune]

hmm that sounds fair

[hollow canyon]

Give Tenonto that much damage, buff Utah's hp to 500 and we should be good

this of course assumes that Utah's pounce gets fixed/reworked

I personally don't like the way it works now and I'd rework it completely

[versed rune]

but then we have to worry about another thing. the fact that carno and utah headshots against a stego do jack shit.

[hollow canyon]

I mean... I don't think either of them should be trying to hunt a Stego via headshots

Carno shouldn't be even thinking about hunting a Stego

Utah should kill it via pounce

which needs a fix... badly

not sure if you've seen the videos of Stego killing a Utah that's latched onto it

but yea - Utah can get killed mid-pounce at times due to bugs

[versed rune]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/844785369823707217/899758521153892392/unknown.png

[lament ermine]

how many hits does a carno kill a teno?

[versed rune]

tested with my friend the other day, thats two HEADSHOTS against a stego as a carno

[hollow canyon]

You need 30+ to kill it

Carno just doesn't hunt Stego, and rightly so, it's not meant to do that

[versed rune]

headshots???? to a steg as a carno????

30+?

im sorry but that is absolutely absurd

[hollow canyon]

Yes, 30^

bodyshots would go up to 60+

You're not meant to hunt Stego as a Carno

Utah can(or rather could) do that if its pounce wasn't completely borked

[lament ermine]

So the only way to kill it is to bleed it to death

[hollow canyon]

I've done it on 3.75

Yea

[versed rune]

see this is where i disagree, theres no use in cramming creatures into individual boxes and labels of "this one can do this, but literally CANT do this"

[hollow canyon]

it takes some 20 minutes and you will likely lose 3-4 Utahs

You don't even wanna know how many bites you need for Deino then

(spoiler alert: it's more than that)

[versed rune]

I think 12-15 headshots for a carno to kill a stego is more than fine. If you're a stego and you let a carno get that many headshots on you then you probably shouldnt be stego

[hollow canyon]

I mean... Carno is a small game hunter and in this scenario you're trying to put it up against an apex-tier herbivore

[versed rune]

yea its like 40 body shots, cuz deino has 8k hp. but thats alright because deino isnt really supposed to be food. carno's main interaction with a croc will be if it gets ambushed, or over food competitions

[hollow canyon]

Actually wait, cancel what I said

30+ was for the body

headshots were 15+

[versed rune]

just because something "specializes" in smaller prey does not mean larger prey should be off limits

just as something that specializes in larger prey should not have small prey off limits

[hollow canyon]

As I said - I was wrong there, I was speaking from top of my head and confused the numbers - Carno needs 30 bodyshots to kill a Stego, not 30 headshots

Headshots go down to 15+ iirc

[versed rune]

stego's hp is.... 6k right?

[hollow canyon]

Yea

[ebon kraken]

Doesn’t carno need 15 headshots cause of the multiplier

[hollow canyon]

30x200=6k so you'd need a bit more to offset the regen

[versed rune]

so a buff to carno's damage up to 250 would make it kill stego with 15 headshots exactly.

assuming stego's headshot multiplier is 2x

or

you could increase stego's headshot multiplier specifically.

[lament ermine]

Someone said headshot multipliers are 1.5x so idk

[hollow canyon]

They are but not for Stego

[lament ermine]

Ah

[hollow canyon]

all the others have 1.5x multiplier on headshots

Stego has x2.0

[ebon kraken]

Stegos have a 2.5 headshot multiplier

[versed rune]

pretty sure its 2.0

[wise sparrow]

Animals should be ENCOURAGED to be in certain niches not forced into them. Look at Utah, the devs forced it into a pack hunter and now its shit.

[hollow canyon]

Utah is doo-doo because it's bugged

[versed rune]

THIS HOLY SHIT

^^^^^

[hollow canyon]

And it's getting more bugged

as time goes on

[alpine plover]

I think Teno should headshot Carno down to 4-5 tail slams

But reduce the stun times or recovery period

[hollow canyon]

You could have update 2 pounce and it would still be garbage because you'd be dying while latched onto Stego's back

[hollow canyon]

That's actually an ingenious idea - buff up the damage and decrease the stun length

[alpine plover]

I wouldn't say so, it's pretty basic on my part

[versed rune]

if stego had a 2.5x head multiplier, it would let carno kill it in 15 bites. it takes more than that currently so it must be 2.0

[wise sparrow]

The game: literally doesn't save your progress

The devs: haha troodon go ooooooaaaaaa

[ebon kraken]

15-16 headshots kill stego if you count the health regeneration

[alpine plover]

Idk, nerfing Stego to be able to be challenged by Carno would set severe precedents down the line for things like Allo/Cera

[versed rune]

Hey man. Don't be so mean to the devs. Rest assured they're hard at work behind the scenes.

[alpine plover]

Allo would crumple up Stego

[wise sparrow]

Yeah your right

[hollow canyon]

Yea while I don't think the animals should be locked too hard into specific niches I don't think Carno should be going after big stuff at all.

It's supposed to be good at oppressing the likes of Utahs, Pachys and having an equal fight against things like Tenonto

[alpine plover]

I think given enough time and patience, with enough manpower
It should be possible, just not a regular occurrence

[versed rune]

15 headshots to kill a stego as a carno isnt all that much of a severe nerf. if a stego lets carnos land 15 headshots then thats kind of on the stego. especially since steg can clean one shot carno now.

[hollow canyon]

It's possible even now

[alpine plover]

Yeah, but Carno isn't exactly a heavy hitter, and Carno has speed to simply dodge the slow jab

Alberto and Allo would make Stego's life pain real quick

[wise sparrow]

Remember back when carno could fight rexes way back

[versed rune]

like i get people want herbivores to be strong, and they should, but we see herbi exclusive mains in here all the time writing essays about how stego should be literally impennetrable by anything that isnt an allo or bigger

[alpine plover]

I don't think it should be invulnerable though

I personally think Utah packs should pose a threat to them

[lament ermine]

All you gotta do as a stego is not get baited and ur good

[alpine plover]

Especially sizable packs

[sinful cove]

i barely ever see anybody opposing utah packs hunting stego. carno shouldnt

[versed rune]

exactly

[alpine plover]

Well, pounce is still fucked, so Stego's remain listless atm

[wise sparrow]

Question. How will stego fair against giga?

[versed rune]

this is exactly my point. of course utah should be more favored against a stego than a carno. but to say carno simply isnt allowed to touch it is delusional.

[alpine plover]

Not good with current Stego

[sinful cove]

utah is dogwater rn but once its fixed. i never see community opposition to a pack of utahs hunting stegos

[lament ermine]

current stego will prob get face tanked to death haha

[sinful cove]

it was dumb af when utahs were soloing stegos but like 5 good raptors taking one down should very well be possible

[alpine plover]

Stego needs fixes too, troodon at this point will be solo'ing Stegos

[sinful cove]

when utah isnt stank af

stego def needs buffs when the future roster comes

[hollow canyon]

Just going to point out that the last(and only) time I've played Stego was in December 2020, right after it came out. I absolutely despise this animal as a playable and I'd have to probably get paid to play it again because it's just that boring to me. I play far more Carno, Tenonto and Deino but I still really don't think that Carno should be hunting Stego.

[sinful cove]

like alberto and acro are gonna make stego their bitch in its current state

[hollow canyon]

Idk about Alberto, although it could survive getting whacked by Stego twice

[sinful cove]

the fastest predator in the game shouldnt be punching up

[hollow canyon]

Yea Carno shouldn't be punching up, it should be good against the small stuff and the stuff its size but that's it.

[alpine plover]

I had a cool idea
Make the jab a sniping move, meaning it's difficult to land, but increase the damage and bleed values, while including a stun on headshots. With an increase to stam to use
And the other two attacks would be a short swing and a sweep swing.

[wise sparrow]

If you are good you should always be able to punch up

[versed rune]

if we buff stego that'll make it even worse than it is now. what you do is you give stego a new type of stun that doesnt disable movement, but instead disables attacks. so if a stego stabs a rex, rex cant attack for 2-3 seconds. rex has to either bait stego or ambush it. this way rex cannot facetank it.

[sinful cove]

if you are a good carno and you are fighting a stego who is being controlled by somebody ij a literal coma then sure

[versed rune]

so you're saying that if a stego lets a carno bite it on the head FIFTEEN times, the stego does not deserve to die?

cause im advocating for 15 carno headshots to kill a stego.

[alpine plover]

If it was Allo, I'd say sure

[sinful cove]

the stego has to be afk or literally braindead to get bitten in the face 15 times by a carno

[alpine plover]

Allo should reliably take on Stego's in small groups

[versed rune]

exactly

right now it takes more than 15 headshots for carno to kill stego

[wise sparrow]

Dont make it so you physically cant do something. Sure carno v stego will be HEAVILY slanted in stegos favor but this is a game, dont just say "oh no you aren't allowed to touch that" it's like legacy's weight system all over again

[alpine plover]

Hm

Think of it this way instead

[versed rune]

if it took allo 15 headshots to kill stego, then stego would rinse it cause allo is slower than carno and a bigger target.

[alpine plover]

Some animals just have better or worse matchups

[sinful cove]

but carno is also disgusting in qa right now so i cant consciously want ot ti be even stonger just because of one herbivore it sucks against

[versed rune]

SPITTING FACTS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[sinful cove]

it steamrolls tenonto, it steamrolls utah packs.

[alpine plover]

Utah's do horrible against agile based opponents, like dibble, Carno, or sometimes Teno

Carno's do worse against matchups with playables that require agility to bring down

Like Stego, Shant, or Apexes

[sinful cove]

once carno isnt so filthy then sure, its matchup against stego could be fixed

[versed rune]

thats a teno and utah problem. not a carno problem. nerfing carno will just ensure that utah, teno and carno are all terrible TOGETHER. Instead, make everyone happy and bring utah and teno up to carno's level.

[alpine plover]

It shouldn't be clear cut definied

But there should be favourable matchups

[sinful cove]

but it doesnt need literally any help right now it needs to be put in its place

[wise sparrow]

Yes but it shouldn't be impossible.

[hollow canyon]

Carno's fine the way it is, it's just Utah and Tenonto that are hotgarbage

[versed rune]

^

[sinful cove]

tenonto got hard shafted and utah was already trash and they somehow made it worse

[versed rune]

carno is actually balanced so it makes everything else look trash by comparison

[hollow canyon]

It can't do anything to Deino and Stego, it has a decent enough match up vs Pachy

[versed rune]

like people advocate for carno nerfs, but which carno nerf would actually solve ANY problems????

[hollow canyon]

Tenonto is trash against everything, Utah is a walking bugged meme

[wise sparrow]

I miss 3.5 teno. 1v1s/1v2s with carnos were SO fun man

[sinful cove]

idk what malice the devs had against those two this patch

[hollow canyon]

I don't think it's any malice, it's merely a matter of the devs not focusing on balance at all atm

When Punch was asked about the balance he responded with "it's not on our minds right now"

[sinful cove]

cant really say they werent focused on balance when they made conscious numbers changes on tenonto

and what ever the hell that is they did to utah with the pounce delay

[hollow canyon]

They will get to it after they figure out the diets

[versed rune]

then they wonder why they get attacked

[hollow canyon]

New animation, apparently it's a part of it

[sinful cove]

they already "got to it" when they made those conscious decisions

[hollow canyon]

Idk why it needed a new animation tbh

[sinful cove]

there isnt an excuse

for these awful decisions

[versed rune]

^^^

[hollow canyon]

As for Tenonto and Utah - as I discussed with Pesky above: if Tenonto gets its tailslam buffed up to either 300N or 310N it should have a decent match up against Carno

[sinful cove]

like did they test this shit before sending it to qa? i sur ehope they fix it before shipping it to live and forcing it upon us all

[hollow canyon]

and not even require any further changes

Utah should then get a buff up to 500hp

[versed rune]

they should seriously just say fuck it and hire the people who discuss in here most frequently and intelligently to fix stats because QA apparently isnt doing it

[hollow canyon]

There's no real reason why it should be at 450

[versed rune]

its just... so damn frustrating.

[sinful cove]

i mean they could certainly at least take a gander at the convos about balance and think ya know

[wise sparrow]

They need people who dont have any bias toward x dinosaur.

[lament ermine]

yeah the devs do some questionable things haha

[hollow canyon]

Do the devs even read the discussion here? Don't they just read the suggestions?

[sinful cove]

befor ethey remove the bones from tenonto's tail and coat utahraptor in oil

[versed rune]

its what happens when you dont play your own game. Flashback to the time dondi streamed legacy cera for 2 hours, didnt encounter a single player, and said "stop complaining cera is balanced."

[hollow canyon]

Although Hypno once got into a discussion here so idk

[sinful cove]

i doubt the devs pay much attention to the entire feedback category

[alpine plover]

I don't think they read this channel

[versed rune]

its blatantly obvious they dont

[alpine plover]

Or a lot of them

[sinful cove]

one of the devs accidentally started typing in gen feedback like a month ago while lurking so clearly they at least open the channels, but it seems to change nothing

[wise sparrow]

They listen to carnivore mains who want herbis to suck and that's it

[alpine plover]

When the carnopaclypse happened, and people begged for Carno nerfs. What did they do? They added Carno ai

[lament ermine]

punch says they do but idk man

[versed rune]

we got ONE thing we've been asking for in the last patch and it was the removal of carno AI but even THEN they said it was TEMPORARY.

Like, no, we dont want it temporarily gone. Carno AI is a mistake and NOBODY wants it.

ever.

[alpine plover]

Cani ai is so jarring

[wise sparrow]

Ai in general is bad if there isn't enough carnivore food there are too many carnivores soooo

[sinful cove]

its funny that they thought carno ai was a good idea when utah ai were already heat seeking missiles previously and boars ran across wate rlike jesus christ

their ai is a disaster

[alpine plover]

They legit need to get their priorities straight, getting one person on the job to code the ai will take ages for the type of interactive ai they have envisioned

And too brutal on just one person alone

[versed rune]

this entire game's development is a disaster. ive been here literally since early 2016 and its the same shit over and over and over every time

[sinful cove]

even dryo ai is awful and has a super clear pattern when it does run

[alpine plover]

They have triple A studio ambitions, but C rated methods to meet these ambitions
They need to change their methods

[versed rune]

like i want this game to be awesome and succeed but

[sinful cove]

i always keep my hope slow for new systems, mechanics and dinosaurs yet i somehow end up being disappointed by some balance decisions

[versed rune]

mother of god

[sinful cove]

how many times i go "yo i called it, they fucked this up"

[alpine plover]

Utah and Teno changes.......

[sinful cove]

yeah like that

what did tenonto do to deserve this

[alpine plover]

Pachy has been our only good inclusion in the roster for a long time

[versed rune]

it doesnt help that the isle's only competitors are both the start of a bad joke, either. if the isle had ACTUAL competition theyd be forced to either get the ball rolling or fail.

[lament ermine]

was anyone complaining about the teno or utah when they were nerfed to the ground? or did they just feel like doin it?

[sinful cove]

i didnt even play it as much as i play ptera because im just a trolling little shit small tier player but it saddens me now i cant enjoy it ever

[alpine plover]

POT really slipped up in that regard, fumbled it's momentum

[wise sparrow]

They will nerf it soon enough cause it's a herbi

[sinful cove]

at least ptera hasnt been shafted.... yet

[versed rune]

pot literally committed suicide and everyone watched it happen. they have no one to blame but themselves.

[wise sparrow]

What happened to pot?

[alpine plover]

Pot was in an arms race with the isle

[sinful cove]

PoT is so money hungry like 30 bucks for the game and then buy DLC? oof

[alpine plover]

Tripped on itself and then fell off a cliff

Got up, then shot themselves in the foot

[versed rune]

a bunch of terrible gameplay, balance, and marketing decisions killed it. no one plays it anymore.

[sinful cove]

why does PoT have to be the game that is going to add Miragaia, my beloved miragaia. going to the worst game

[versed rune]

theyre adding miragaia.....?

officially?

[sinful cove]

yeah

[versed rune]

they already have kentro and stego

[sinful cove]

its on their list

[versed rune]

WHY

that's just redundant at that point

[alpine plover]

Pot had potential
It's another tragic dino simulator going broke

[sinful cove]

to be fair most of their roster is

[versed rune]

this is true

[lament ermine]

bc they want to add content but in reality its just reskins

[wise sparrow]

Like I'd play bob while the isle gets its it shit together but god damn, the clans and balance

[alpine plover]

Their roster was clever, but it has no smart additions in accordance with ecosystems

[versed rune]

at least BoB has the charm of being a game so bad and broken that the badness and brokenness of it is a novelty.

[sinful cove]

BoB where a pteranodon can pick up a sauropod and a pachy can fus roh dah a rex off a cliff

[versed rune]

PoT is just plain bad and broken.

[alpine plover]

Pot has like 2-3 Certopsian clones

In similar weight classes

[sinful cove]

PoT sarco is laughable it thinks it's a kapro

giant kapro

[alpine plover]

Galloping Sarco was it for me

[versed rune]

lets not forget pot's lovely map.

"lovely."

[wise sparrow]

Oh god that thing

[sinful cove]

also that thing where if there are people near a water source it becomes undrinkable

[versed rune]

"yeah lets make water get dirty"

"thatll make the kids become immersed"

[alpine plover]

Then we have modern day wildebeast drinking blood and croc water in the nile river

[wise sparrow]

Hmmmm who else did that? And have it do nothing useful

[sinful cove]

animals in africa drinking out of swimming pool sized pools with 10 alligators shitting in it and dead bodies

PoT devs: yeah our dinosaurs dont wanna drink some backwash"

[versed rune]

its almost like making water get dirty will kill the one hotspot anyone goes to on your awful map. funny how that works.

[alpine plover]

Honestly though TI needs to clean their progress up

A triple A company will speed and blow through these years of progress the Isle struggled with

[versed rune]

they dont have to because their competitors have the competence of any disney villain sidekicks

[alpine plover]

They need to be in a comfortable position already if that's the case

[sinful cove]

lmao imagine some aaa company goes and decides to copy isle and the whole trinity just collapses

[versed rune]

it would collapse in an instant

id be upset, but i wouldnt feel bad

[lament ermine]

id be fine w that

[alpine plover]

Bob, Pot, TI, would get shattered very very quickly

[versed rune]

because as much as i want the isle to succeed, they have it coming honestly. so much time yet so little progress

[sinful cove]

i just want cool dinosaur game with good looking models and good balance

[alpine plover]

Almost effortlessly too

[wise sparrow]

What they need are more staff. Not a whole company but just more so 1 person isn't working a whole game

[alpine plover]

Issue is, that if they have aaa standards, they need to have the workforce and methods to match their own standards

[versed rune]

the frustrating part is the balancing is literally not difficult at all, but people have the brain function of a baboon and cant seem to figure out how to do it

[alpine plover]

Yeah

[sinful cove]

some of the balance choices that have come to this game are just too stupid to be stupid

[lament ermine]

they had it right in 3.5

[alpine plover]

Balance isn't 4D chess to figure out as well

[lament ermine]

or close enough

[wise sparrow]

Why do they always shaft herbivores?

Other than the huge ones

[alpine plover]

Because they're not carnivores

[sinful cove]

because the herbivore community is smaller so their solution is to listen to the loudest whiners in the carni community

not even exclusively herbivores getting the shaft

but it seems more consistent

[versed rune]

in balancing the isle you literally only have to ask yourself 4 questions. "what should this animal do? what are ideal stats for this animal's function?" how does it interact with every other animal individually with these stats?" "are any changes needed?" THATS LITERALLY IT.

[sinful cove]

"is this animal able to run, hide, or fight against its competition on the same skill level?" easy question to ask and fulfill in balance

[alpine plover]

Lmao, lets nerf Utah and Teno
Carno no longer has stacked competition, so now it's more realism with size ranges!
The result:Carnopocalypse

[versed rune]

as mathematical as balancing is, at the end of the day, it all comes down to whether or not it feels right to play as

[wise sparrow]

But my sprinter ambush predator carno should be able to face tank a tenos tail!!1!111!!!1!

[lament ermine]

carno can do it all

[alpine plover]

Hypsi fucking sucks

[sinful cove]

carno is the brawler, ambusher, and sprinter all in one

[alpine plover]

How did they ever release such a playable

[sinful cove]

man hypsi is such a throwaway lmao. its fun to troll with after you die and are salty about it but thats it

[calm ibex]

fuck hypsi, who knows how much dev time has been sunk to that animal and its feathers

[wise sparrow]

Hypsis sole purpose is to suck and I love it

[versed rune]

"guys lets add carno without a carnivorous opponent in the same size range. Cera? Allo? what are those???"

[sinful cove]

the last time i saw a hypsi is when i killed some juv stego on my tenonto and that stego came back as hypsi to spit at me and my friend. its literally just a salt pick

[wise sparrow]

Cera would have been a better first mid tier change my mind

[sinful cove]

cera would have been sooo much better

and kentro instead of stego

[wise sparrow]

I like being a small prey animal

[alpine plover]

Hypsi has no growth, no tree climbing. So why bother adding it?

[sinful cove]

i like playing the small tiers most too but some of them just arent worth the time as a regular pick

i hope oviraptor doesnt blow chunks, its one of my fave dinos

[alpine plover]

Dryo cannot access burrows

[versed rune]

i dont think cera wouldve been necessarily BETTER because then nothing would be able to hunt teno. im assuming cera will be slower than teno and if you're slower than teno and ALSO in its size range then you're not gonna be able to hunt it efficiently. carnivores ALWAYS need a counterpart. the only way for it to work is to add cera and carno at the same time.

[sinful cove]

dryo shouldnt even need burrows it should just get better work on its dodge which currently is a trash ability

if dryo ends up getting burrows again it should just be simple one chamber ones

the REAL burrowing should go to my man taco

[alpine plover]

They should’ve focused on feature complete dinos before speeding ahead with roster additions. They’re now forced to backtrack on these decisions

[wise sparrow]

It should be omni directional

[sinful cove]

dryo dodge should be omnidirectional aimed yeah

[hollow canyon]

I wouldn't assume Cerato is going to be slower than Tenonto - the real issue is that even the nerfed Tenonto would likely body a Cerato since Tenonto would just knock the Cerato down.

[sinful cove]

not some rng decising if you go right or left despite you aiming one way

[wise sparrow]

I wanna play hop scotch around a carno lmao

[versed rune]

another issue that can be solved by removing weight=health

[hollow canyon]

That's assuming the damage of the tailslam actually gets applied and doesn't bug out

[sinful cove]

personally id hope cera is aroud the same speed as tenonto, it isnt all that fast

so whats the harm

[hollow canyon]

Not really, since Cerato would still be going down on the ground

[versed rune]

if you keep cera's weight realsitic but make it a defensive tank with its health, then that solves the problem of teno potentially bodying cera

it also solves the problem against carno

[wise sparrow]

Something reasonable though. Not like sub deinos health

[alpine plover]

I don’t think it’s fun for Carno’s right now bodying everything either

[hollow canyon]

If it ends up being at its irl size I don't see why it should be tanking more damage than its size implies

[versed rune]

cause when carno is against allo, allo has superior hp and stregnth, making the carno v allo matchup even. if we keep weight=health, cera will get bodied by carno in LITERALLY every single concievable way.

[alpine plover]

A legit Carno main requested for nerfs in this channel to make it more challenging

[hollow canyon]

...how is Carno vs Allo even?

[alpine plover]

Also weight=health is bad

[sinful cove]

somebody a while bakc, dont remember who it was, had some idea for a judo cera that could duck and push other theropods over from their underbelly using its head and neck/torso

[alpine plover]

Magy is doomed

[sinful cove]

carno and allo are even because carno can just run tf away

[versed rune]

i didnt mean literally even. i shouldve used to word fair.

[hollow canyon]

I mean yea - I don't think there's any scenario where Carno would be winning against an Allo

[sinful cove]

the one who controls the confrontation generally should be at a disadvantage in the melee

[versed rune]

if allo wasnt stronger than carno then carno would have an unfair advantage. but allo is stronger. cera doesnt have that same luxury.

[alpine plover]

That’s what I thought, the weight hp thing fucks Cera in the Carno matchup

[versed rune]

gonna hard disagree there cause people always seem to overestimate the size difference between allo and carno but thats a discussion for another day. and that also goes back to the "some matchups should be discouraged, but NEVER impossible" thing.

[hollow canyon]

I've gone over what Cerato could do that would make it viable without turning it into a discount Alberto a couple of times

[alpine plover]

And I don’t wanna Cera moving at Utah speed and agility

[hollow canyon]

Allo is some 50% larger than Carno

the difference between the two is about as big as the one between Cerato and Carno

[versed rune]

but we agree that carno shouldnt completely trash on cera, right?

[alpine plover]

But for the sake of balance, it’s gonna have to bend the paleo gripes

[hollow canyon]

It should be winning handily in the open, Cerato should be turning that around in the woods though

[versed rune]

exactly

[alpine plover]

Suppose we have ur suggestion implemented Aken

Cera would need something to compensate

Like a special ability or a stun

Cause no way it’s winning a face tank

[hollow canyon]

Idk about Cerato's special ability, I presume that the devs have it figured out already

[versed rune]

i know its a super hot take but im gonna stand by it yet again, but cera, allo, carno, bary, and alberto should all be within similar power ranges to where they can all compete against each other in SOME way to avoid anything like the legacy weight mass system.

[hollow canyon]

Other than that though - it's not meant to be winning a facetank

If you gave me an animal with Utah's agility and 200N biteforce 1k hp

[lament ermine]

but what prevents the carno from just facetanking it

or ass riding it

[hollow canyon]

I'm quite certain I could take down a Carno in the woods with it

[alpine plover]

I actually agree, the mid tier roster should be the most competitive

Exceptions being Utah and Dilo

[hollow canyon]

I disagree - Bary and Cerato shouldn't even think about fighting an Alberto or an Allo

[wise sparrow]

Pachy will need to be changed a bit when cera comes in. Seeing as it's faster and can cripple it

[alpine plover]

They punch up in that roster with numbers and tools

[hollow canyon]

Neither should Carno

[versed rune]

if we make something like allo body cera carno and bary with no way for them to fight back, we get legacy allo all over again.

and we all know how OP legacy allo is.

[hollow canyon]

Legacy Allo isn't op at all, it's Cerato that's hot garbage

[versed rune]

alberto is a special case since that thing in its very nature is designed to be OP and i have no clue how the hell to handle that thing balance wise.

[hollow canyon]

Allo and Dilo are pretty much the only well balanced animals in the legacy

[alpine plover]

I agree, having superior playables stopgapped only through diets caused the carnopocalypse

[hollow canyon]

all the others are either garbage or too good

[versed rune]

the damage, bleed, stamina, and ambush speed time of legacy allo are absolutely mental

[alpine plover]

Wasn’t fun for Carnos , wasn’t fun for everyone else

Also Allo was busted

That’s irrefutable

[wise sparrow]

Legacy para was pain

[versed rune]

granted ambush speed is irrelevant now, but my point is that no other mid tier could contest the thing. partly because cera and carno were trash, partly because allo was busted

[hollow canyon]

Sucho bodied Allo easily

[wise sparrow]

I love sucho

[alpine plover]

Not if they abused the heal

[hollow canyon]

Cerato was trash, Carno's too small to fight it

[versed rune]

sucho is not a mid tier and never should have been considered one.

[alpine plover]

They could solo Sucho

[hollow canyon]

Sucho is absolutely a mid tier

[versed rune]

sucho is a pseudo apex along with acro.

[wise sparrow]

Sucho would be god if it wasn't a slug

[versed rune]

well. in legacy it WAS a mid tier. but it shouldnt have been.

[hollow canyon]

and yes - a good Allo could kill a Sucho abusing the bleed heal but guess what? If Sucho was any good it just doublebit the Allo and Allo was going down

[hollow canyon]

Why not?

It's nowhere near the size of Acro or apexes

[versed rune]

because sucho is absolutely gigantic in real life.

[hollow canyon]

It's not

[alpine plover]

Allo could double bite as well, and the heal was enough to negate that

[versed rune]

it is???

[wise sparrow]

Sucho is a chonker

[hollow canyon]

How large do you think Sucho is?

[alpine plover]

Sucho is around 5 tons

It’s pseudo ish

[hollow canyon]

It's nowhere close that size

[hollow canyon]

Yea

[versed rune]

same range as acro.

[hollow canyon]

Acro dwarfs it

[wise sparrow]

A lot of spinosaurus were criminally big for only eating fish

[hollow canyon]

The sucho you posted above was estimated by the author of that skeletal at ~3400kg

that Acro was estimated at 6.1t

their weights have changed since then and Sucho is now 3.6t while Acro moved down to 5.8t

[versed rune]

The point i am making is why, for gameplay purposes, should sucho be a mid tier????

we have 5 already.

[hollow canyon]

but that doesn't change the fact that they are nowhere close to those weights

[versed rune]

carno. cera. allo. bary. alberto.

[hollow canyon]

Cerato isn't a mid tier either - it's a small tier according to the old roadmap

Sucho was labeled a mid tier there btw

[alpine plover]

I think some mid tiers should be weak

[versed rune]

why not give acro a competitor in sucho? real life nitpicks about weight dont matter in a videogame. acro and sucho are in the same size range visually, so why not make them compete in game??? otherwise what is going to directly compete with acro?

[alpine plover]

Like Bary

[hollow canyon]

Sucho isn't a competition to Acro even at 5t

[alpine plover]

In the context of game design though, it can be

[hollow canyon]

Acro's just a far more adapted to killing large animals on land and it would roll over a Sucho with ease

[versed rune]

again, video game.

[hollow canyon]

That would be absolutely dumb, Sucho has no business hunting things larger than itself

[alpine plover]

Aken you’re a cool paleo guy, but the realism reaches too far. Especially in a game cluttered with irl apexes under one ecosystem

[versed rune]

iirc sucho has estimates that put it as big as rex as well, so i dont understand how it would be dumb. acro needs a direct competitor. otherwise we get what we have now with carno. no competition.

[hollow canyon]

no, it doesn't

[versed rune]

key word being estimates here.

we're talking a videogame. we can use our imaginations and guess.

[alpine plover]

You’re viewing all these animals functioning at their irl respective abilities, when we have Herrera, troodon, and kaiju Spino off the walls

[hollow canyon]

No, I'm serious - the largest estimates of Sucho go up to 5t but those are based on the premise that the holotype found was a subadult animal

[versed rune]

carno PROBABLY wasnt a bullet train irl, like teno PROBABLY didnt slam the guts out of things with its tail

[hollow canyon]

The issue is that we currently widely consider it to be a fully grown specimen

I don't mind some animals being fictionalised to fit a different niche

[versed rune]

there is no reason we cant make sucho more powerful than it wouldve realistically been for the sake of making the game's ecosystem function better

[hollow canyon]

but you'd have to redesign Sucho to be able to hunt large animals

It doesn't look like it could take an Acro on

[alpine plover]

Therefore brawling Cera, and tanky Sucho

[hollow canyon]

It looks like it would get stomped into the ground

[alpine plover]

Then it’d retreat in water

[hollow canyon]

I don't have a problem with Spino killing a Rex or a Giga because its fictionalised

[versed rune]

our current sucho looks pretty tanky with those arms.

[hollow canyon]

neither do I have a problem with Tenonto tailslamming things to their deaths

[versed rune]

scale it up and we're fine, honestly.

[hollow canyon]

How much would you have to scale it up? To reach Spino size?

It's just a tiny animal in comparison to Acrochonkosaurus

[versed rune]

literally just to acro size, which is realstically what it wouldve been anyway.

[wise sparrow]

What was our original topic before? lmao

[versed rune]

again im not talking literal weight. im talking VISUALLY.

[hollow canyon]

when you say "acro size" do you mean Acro's weight or length?

[alpine plover]

Pretty sure it was balance

[hollow canyon]

Yea but the visuals are what determines the weight

for irl animals

[versed rune]

i mean its literal visuals. height. length.

[alpine plover]

Aken always brings it around to weight realism though

[hollow canyon]

Give me a second

[versed rune]

it is only slightly shorter than acro in both length and height. there is no reason for it to be bodied by acro in the context of this game

keep in mind i love both sucho and acro.

[hollow canyon]

This is our Acro

It's fictionalised

this thing is more robust than the irl animal

[versed rune]

im also not necessarily saying sucho should have an outright power advantage, keep in mind.

[hollow canyon]

if you fictionalised Sucho to make it plausible for it to take down an irl Acro you'd have ot make it reach the length of some ~13m but this thing is likely even bigger than irl Acro

Nova's estimate for it, assuming its at the same length was 6.5-7t

[alpine plover]

Okay, so reason one, our roster is bloated anyway, reason two, there must always be a method for a playable to survive against another playable

That’s all it boils down to

[hollow canyon]

Sure, but Sucho out of all the animals really shouldn't have an issue surviving against larger predators

it's got no business going out and hunting Acro

leave that to a pack of Allos or something

[versed rune]

again why are we talking about weight? im talking strictly visuals. people need visual queues to tell which animals they can fight and which they will need a group to battle.

[hollow canyon]

Visuals are what determines the weight

alright, let me just clarify what I mean by that

[versed rune]

no one is saying sucho should hunt acro. they should be rivals. competitors.

[hollow canyon]

Weight in dinosaurs is created by calculating a GDI which determined the volume of the animal

meaning

[heady flare]

its pretty self explanatory tho

[hollow canyon]

lengthxheightxbroadness

that's how we get weight

we don't actually "know" how much they weighed

we assume that based on how "big" they are

that's why I use weight

instead of length or anything else

What I'm talking about when I say "weight" is really their volume

but it would be weird if I started throwing around "2100 litres"

[versed rune]

exactly, and sucho and acro are very close in height and length, based on those two diagrams. for the purposes of our fictional video game, carnivorous animals in a size range that close should be competing with one another

[hollow canyon]

They aren't very close in broadness though

Sucho is a stick compared to Acro

it's like Mike Tyson compared to one of the NBA players

[hollow canyon]

yea - they are about as tall

but one of them is twice as broad as the other

[wise sparrow]

Was legacy acros damage weird? Or am I bad?

[alpine plover]

This circles back to the Cera Carno debate

[hollow canyon]

Everything about legacy Acro was weird

[alpine plover]

Regardless, Cera or Sucho need surefire counterplay

Anything else is secondary

[hollow canyon]

Its damage was 250N but it weighed ~4790kg so it packed quite a punch

Sucho can easily survive - it's meant to be around the water

it can either just swim away or wade through the water that would slow Carno down

the main issue with Sucho is how to make it survive a Deino attack

since it's actually going to have to coexist with it

[alpine plover]

I can see 2 Suchos challenging Acro though

[versed rune]

easy, you make it a pseudo apex like acro

[wise sparrow]

Let's start another debate. Should sucho kill deino?

[hollow canyon]

Young ones, sure

adult - nah

[alpine plover]

A full grown? No

[jolly matrix]

Sucho and Acro should be wary of one another. Acro obviously would be more adapt at hunting bigger prey, but sucho isn't really at all. It's a fisher but it still has the weapons to defend it self quite well against an acro. They are both within eachother size ranges, sucho is a bit thinner but not a twig compared to acro at all...

[wise sparrow]

Then what will deino fight? It seems like all the semi aquatics either body a dino or get bodied

[hollow canyon]

It is a twig though - as I said above. Sucho weighs over 2t less than Acro while being roughly as long as Acro.

[wise sparrow]

We have bepi Barry sucho deino and spino

[hollow canyon]

Like the specific thing about spinosaurids is that they are long but thin

[jolly matrix]

Aken its a video game...

Teno is smaller than carno

but can still defend it self against one

[hollow canyon]

Yea, sure

[spiral sparrow]

just drowned as deino cause the oxygen meter is too small

[jolly matrix]

Same should go for sucho

[wise sparrow]

Not in qa sadly

[hollow canyon]

This is assuming Sucho is actually slower than Acro which going by Acro's concept art I don't think it's going to be

[jolly matrix]

You are thinking we are saying that sucho should out right slaughter an acro, no one is saying that. If an acro sees a sucho, the acro should be HEAVILY wary, thinking that he could get seriously injured if he fights it, same goes for sucho.

[alpine plover]

Honestly I'm not so sure

[hollow canyon]

Even if it was slower it would still have other ways of getting away from an Acro

[alpine plover]

Acro needs to escape Giga, and Sucho need to escape Acro

That's the apex conundrum

[jolly matrix]

If a sucho is caught away from water from an acro, obviously the acro has an advantage but not a big enough advantage where sucho gets bodied.

[wise sparrow]

I feel like sucho will ambush thing bully others off corpses and fish

[alpine plover]

We'd have some lanky speeds there

[jolly matrix]

if an sucho is near the water then the fields are more even.

[hollow canyon]

I don't think Acro should be wary of a Sucho just like I don't think Allo should be wary of a Carno.

[alpine plover]

That's arguable

[jolly matrix]

Aken saying allo shouldnt be wary of carno, is just bad game design.

If you promote bad game design then I have nothing else to say.

[hollow canyon]

It's not bad design

[versed rune]

this line of thinking is what led us to what was so disastorous about legacy

[jolly matrix]

Yes it is.

[hollow canyon]

Allo is just much larger

and stronger

Carno is a small game hunter

[jolly matrix]

Balance

Game design

[hollow canyon]

Exactly

[jolly matrix]

carno isn't a "small game design"

[hollow canyon]

what you're suggesting is bad balance and game design

[alpine plover]

Okay look

[jolly matrix]

it is efficient at hunting small game but can absolutely take out a teno

[hollow canyon]

It's a small game hunter - it shouldn't be going after another theropod 50% larger than itself

[jolly matrix]

or a maia

[hollow canyon]

How do you know how Carno's going to fare against a Maia?

[jolly matrix]

Did i say i knew?

Im saying it should.

Read more carefully please

[alpine plover]

You just hard locked Carno out of a matchup because of niche
Not even from a ridiculous standpoint, like Carno going up against a Shant.
But variables exist

[versed rune]

we arent advocating for carnivores hunting carnivores. we are advocating for competition between carnivores within a similar size range because dinosaur fights are fun and cool. that's literally it.

[alpine plover]

Aken, you're a professional Legacy designer

[hollow canyon]

No, you said "it can absolutely take out a Teno" - which is true, but then you added "or a maia"

[jolly matrix]

An allo is stronger than a carno, thats common sense

[wise sparrow]

Oh God

[jolly matrix]

but straight up saying a carno will not win against an allo

[versed rune]

i mean why shouldnt a carno be hunting a maia

[jolly matrix]

is just not very logical thinking.

[wise sparrow]

Why are there more carnis than herbivores planned?

[hollow canyon]

The carnivores you're talking about aren't in the similar size range though

[alpine plover]

Carni bias

[jolly matrix]

Allo has an advantage but carno has a possibility

[hollow canyon]

I mean - it has a possibility of killing a Stego too

[versed rune]

Carno and Allo are very much in a general size range.

[hollow canyon]

it's just not very likely

[alpine plover]

That's what it boils down to

[versed rune]

Bary and cera are also in the mid tier size range.

the mid tier size range should be large.

[hollow canyon]

as long as it deals more damage than Allo can outheal then Carno will have a chance

[versed rune]

because they're in the "middle"

[hollow canyon]

That's just your interpretation of the "mid tier"

[versed rune]

because thats what the definition of the "middle" is

[hollow canyon]

a tonne of people on this discord don't even consider Carno as a mid tier

[jolly matrix]

All mid tiers should have a POSSIBLITY of taking one another out

some have more advantages than others

[versed rune]

exactly and its a problem.

[hollow canyon]

They will

Just like Utah has a chance of taking out a Carno

or a Carno has a chance of taking out a Stego

[jolly matrix]

oh hohoho

[hollow canyon]

Everything is possible

[alpine plover]

If we were to go by this standard of thinking
Then there'd be little difference then playing a predetermined roleplay server
Or current Evrima qa

[jolly matrix]

carno currently doesnt have a chance at killing a stego at all

[hollow canyon]

Since they're not outhealing your damage

[jolly matrix]

sadly it doesnt

[versed rune]

im also sick of people calling teno a psuedo mid tier, too. teno is a mid tier. there is no need to hyper-categorize with "psuedo" tiers unless we are talking about pseudo apexes like acro and sucho which do not fit into apex, but do not fit into mid tiers either.

[hollow canyon]

It does, you need over 15 headshots or a long time to bleed one out but it's doable in a large enough pack

[wise sparrow]

Oh you see you aren't allowed to attack that rex with your pack cause you FEAR them

[versed rune]

all this mentality does is create an environment like legacy where every dinosaur is hypercateogrized and therefore limited in its ability

[hollow canyon]

I don't see any reason to use "tiers" at all - the weights of those animals say all that needs to be said regarding their size

[jolly matrix]

Aken it takes more than 15

It takes 30+...

which is absurd

absoluty absurd

[hollow canyon]

30+ would be bodyshots

[jolly matrix]

It shouldnt take more than 12...

[hollow canyon]

You need over 15 as I said

[jolly matrix]

Stego can litrally tank 30 head shots

it takes 30 HEADSHOTS

[alpine plover]

Lmao, nothing should ever challenge Rexes lol
"The tiers are too wide regardless"
Cerato is doomed at any counterplay against Carno because of size differences

[hollow canyon]

Carno deals 400 damage per bite due to x2.0 multiplier, Stego has 6000 hp = 15 bites(+ some additional ones to offset the regen).

[versed rune]

pretty sure it takes like 17-18 headshots. still an absurd number though.

[hollow canyon]

If it takes 30 then either you're not hitting the head or something is bugged

[jolly matrix]

Well maybe i was over reacting but my point still stands. Stego and carno arent balanced at all.

[alpine plover]

I'm still iffy on the Carno/Stego matchup

[jolly matrix]

Well

Carno is fine rn

Stego isnt

But thats not even the topic of discussion

[alpine plover]

Teno and Utah isn't

[wise sparrow]

"Realism" servers were just made to make life easier for apexes

[hollow canyon]

Carno shouldn't be hunting Stego

it's just that simple

if you want to - GL HF, you're up for a tough task

[alpine plover]

If they want to sure, if it's possible yeah
That's where I stand

[wise sparrow]

Yes it should be tough, not impossible

[jolly matrix]

Carno should have the ability to hunt a stego with HEAVY difficulty. stego needs a much bigger headshot bonus

[hollow canyon]

It is tough

[jolly matrix]

specifically for stego

[hollow canyon]

you can kill it, just need those 15-20 bites

[jolly matrix]

something like a 3x bonus to 4x

[alpine plover]

It's a bit much

[jolly matrix]

If a stego dies to a single carno even with the headshot bonus. The stego is just bad.

[alpine plover]

Stegos would be dropping like flies

[hollow canyon]

That would cause Deino to 4-5 shot it

[jolly matrix]

Yes

A stego shouldnt be messing with a deino like its a baby

A stego should be very wary of a full grown deino

[wise sparrow]

Oh and that would cause land deinos

[jolly matrix]

both should be able to kill one another

a stego can easiy keep its head safe from one anyways

[alpine plover]

For now, I'd say just rework Stego currently

[hollow canyon]

Pretty sure that would make it a Deino favoured match up

[versed rune]

if we give stego a stun that disables attacking then that wont be an issue. it would also prevent against apexes facetanking it in the future.

[alpine plover]

Make Utah function so they actually have a threat, wait for more proper inclusions to challenge it

Jab should stun tbh

[versed rune]

***note that this proposed stun disables ATTACKS for 2-3 seconds, NOT movement.

[alpine plover]

On headshots

[wise sparrow]

I have an idea and I'm really proud of it but I'm on mobile and its gonna be hell to type

[jolly matrix]

@hollow canyon Aken what do you believe carno vs allos matchup should look like?

[alpine plover]

Probably that when an Allo strolls up on a Carno, there should be zero concern

[hollow canyon]

It shouldn't really look like anything - 1v1 Carno should just run from an Allo.

[jolly matrix]

Would a carno have any chance at winning?

What would the odds of a carno winning you think?

[hollow canyon]

Sure - if Allo misses bites repeatedly and Carno gets free hits

[jolly matrix]

So carno barely has a chance?

[hollow canyon]

In general Carno can always get out of the fight here

I don't see why it should have much of a chance of killing an animal which takes longer to grow and can't pursue it

Especially with how it's designed to kill things smaller than itself

[jolly matrix]

Ah alright alright.

[hollow canyon]

Utahs should have a better match up against Allo than Carno does

[versed rune]

note that when we say "this thing should be able to battle that thing" we dont necessarily mean outright stats and raw power. we mean a lot of situational factors like who the players are, the environment, etc

[hollow canyon]

I'd say that I'd probably sse a pair of Utahs as likely having a better chance of killing an Allo than Carno would

[alpine plover]

Would Allo be a brawler?

Cause I do think brawler classes should pose more of a tricky type for Carno's

Same way Teno does(should)

Note the language I use

[versed rune]

Allo is a generalist. average at most things, but not the BEST at anything

good starter dinosaur

[alpine plover]

I say tricky, not "fucked"

[hollow canyon]

I mean if Allo has a grapple that allows it to just grab Carno and stop it from moving then this fight is absolutely one sided

[hollow canyon]

That's what it was in the legacy we don't know if it's going to work like that in Evrima

[alpine plover]

It could be an ambusher in Evrima, high chance from the running animations

[versed rune]

but the generalist niche fits allo well

like the assassin niche fits carno well

but its more refined in evrima

carno was just "the fast guy that cant do anything but be fast" in legacy

but they changed that into a hit and run assassin type by refining it.

[hollow canyon]

Carno was a meme in the legacy

[alpine plover]

It was

[hollow canyon]

but I just don't see how Carno would win against an Allo in Evrima - its charge would cause it to stun itself

its turn rate is awful

what exactly can it do to kill an Allo?

[alpine plover]

Again, in your own words

We know nothing of Evrima Allo

It could have terrible bleed resist for all we know

[hollow canyon]

Yea but you need to make pretty bold assumptions about it to make it possible for Carno to solo

[versed rune]

well im sorry but a carno running 40 something miles an hour charging an allo with sharp horns should absolutely not stun itself.

[hollow canyon]

Carno stuns itself on anything that's larger than itself

Even a relatively small Stego causes you to take damage and get stunned

[alpine plover]

Some sizes, it should be able to tackle though relatively

[hollow canyon]

that's how Carno's charge works - it's intended for killing small animals

[versed rune]

and that's a problem, dont you think?

[hollow canyon]

No, I really don't, it's a tool for hunting smaller animals, I think it works fine

[alpine plover]

Throwing your own weight at something even if you're smaller can make the larger opponent tumble over from the simple fact of unstable balance

[versed rune]

should a stego not be harmed if a carno aims a precise charge directly on its head????

[alpine plover]

Carno charge could be multi functional

[hollow canyon]

There's no locational damage on charge

It just deals flat damage

Not sure how much work it would take to change that

[alpine plover]

They should add locational damage on the charge tbh

[hollow canyon]

I'd assumed there was locational on it but apparently they didn't add it for some reason

I don't expect it to get changed

[alpine plover]

Getting hit from the tail shouldn't deal the same damage as head

[versed rune]

and it should be. like lets be honest here. if you use charge as a carno, you lose a ton of mobility. if you wanna chage a stego, go for it. risk slamming into the stego's side and getting gutted for it. BUT if you land a precise hit on the stego's head, i dont see why that shouldnt be massively rewarding towards the carno

[jolly matrix]

Plus stego can EASILY move its head

[alpine plover]

I don't think charge though should be dps based

It should be more of like a tackle

[hollow canyon]

^

[alpine plover]

Stuns and drops small tiers

[hollow canyon]

I wasn't happy with charge getting the damage buff in 3.75 either

[alpine plover]

Can be used to tip over an Allo running at top speed

[hollow canyon]

it should be a tool for CCing things

not a nuke

[versed rune]

charge damage buff in 3.75 was ass. made hunting utahs no fun.

it was funny for 5 minutes but that was it

[alpine plover]

So yeah, tackle charge, way more fun and variable for Carno

And it can realistically have an option to fight Allo with

Throwing it's entire weight at it with really fast speed resolves the realism approach at least in the bare minimum

It'd require semblance of movement on the Allo's part too

So it's not just standing still in circles

[dusky surge]

I don't think carno needs to be fighting an allo but whatever.

[hollow canyon]

^

[alpine plover]

Sorry bros, but fun games sound cool

And fun to play

[dusky surge]

Carno fast. Very fast. Allos literally can be left in the dust by a startled carno, the thing can and will fucking BOOK IT to nowhere. Add the ability for a carno to not only escape, but fight back, and we're left with the apex carno syndrome

[alpine plover]

Nahh

[hollow canyon]

I don't think that's the definition of fun, a single Carno taking on an animal that takes longer to grow and is slower than it doesn't sound like fun at all

sounds like a pretty bad design all around

[alpine plover]

We know little of Evrima Allo

[hollow canyon]

We know it's slower

[dusky surge]

One thing we do know is it ain't outrunning the carno

[hollow canyon]

and I mean you can assume it will take as long to grow than Carno but I'd rather remain in the realm of reality

[alpine plover]

Sure, but we don't have it's clear stats for agility, it's speed, how tanky it is, how it's grapple and damage values are

[hollow canyon]

Allo's animation puts it at around 42km/h

[alpine plover]

And the Carno charge is assuming only used for tackling, which is also stam based

Allo straight up brawls it any other way

[jolly matrix]

Allo vs Carno's match up should be 60-40 or 70-30 in Allos favor. The fight should not be even, no one has said that, all that has been said is a reasonable possibility that carno has a chance. That is all. The rest would come to skill which the isle currently doesn't require.

[alpine plover]

That's where we disagree
Liberties make fun variables possible

[dusky surge]

So, nacen, if you're running INTO an allo, at brawl range, as a non-brawler dino, and using up the precious stamina you could use to NOT die to the allo, how does that make any sense? Would that not be saying to players "well you CAN stun an allo, but this is just because we thought it'd be funny to watch carnos kill themselves"

[hollow canyon]

So the liberty in this case is that Carno gets to pick whatever fights it wants while Carno has to count on Carno being bad enough to either run into it or go afk in front of its keyboard

yea

that sounds like "fun"

[hollow canyon]

Those numbers like "40-60", "30-70" mean absolutely nothing

How was Tenonto's match up against Utah in update 1?

[alpine plover]

It gets to pick most fights, but reasonably is at a clear disadvantage in most of those fights
Assuming as well that most playables become good enough to ward it off respectively

[versed rune]

i mean we cant really change carno being able to pick and choose fights. that just the nature of the fastest. also did you mean allo has to count on carno?

[dusky surge]

I agree with liberties being fun, I like player freedom, but encouraging a downright suicidal playstyle by getting into close range with an animal nearly an entire ton above you as a non-brawling speed-based small game hunter seems like its less giving player freedom and more encouraging stupid play.

[hollow canyon]

Was it 50:50? Was it 30/70? Was it 70/30?

[jolly matrix]

You took it too literal.

[hollow canyon]

It has to count on Carno being dumb enough to either walk up to it or falling asleep in front of its keyboard to do anything about it, it literally makes Carno the superior playable.

[alpine plover]

You're gonna have to elaborate, I'm a bit confused so I don't wanna misinterpret what you mean

[hollow canyon]

No, I didn't, those numbers just mean absolutely nothing

[calm ibex]

how the fuck would carno take on generalist like allo?

[versed rune]

isnt the risk of ramming into something with a ton of force inherently a suicidal playstyle? like if a carno fucks up a charge, should it not be incredibly punished for it?

[alpine plover]

You could resolve that by making charge somewhat like Pachy's
Adding a layer of punishment

[versed rune]

like the thing is with carno, you gotta get close to deal damage, and your health is trash for your size, right? glass cannon???

[alpine plover]

And nerf it's dps value

[hollow canyon]

By charging it and tackling it or something apparently

[dusky surge]

Alright but even if it SUCCEEDS, it's just burned a ton of stam in doing this, and for what? To piss off an allo even further and decrease your capacity to get the fuck out of there

[alpine plover]

Remember, a tackle would be multi functional

[versed rune]

if it burned a ton of stam, then its charge should have a high reward. because the risk is high, too.

[alpine plover]

You could use it to defend one of your wounded packmates

[jolly matrix]

Aken, you aren't understanding what I really meant. Allo by default has an advantage to carno, a quite large one, it has size over carno. But if you read the last sentence of what I said, it should all be reasonably possible. Carno should have a HARD time fighting an allo but it shouldn't be a "fuck this, im running far away" situation.

[versed rune]

remember a smart allo can just simply dodge.

[alpine plover]

Or one your young so it can escape

[versed rune]

carno has next to no mobility when charging.

why should landing a charge not be punishing

[dusky surge]

And it is high reward, on small things. You get an instant knockdown and a ton of damage. HOWEVER, on an ALLO, all you're doing is running headfirst into something that will proceed to tear you a new one

[alpine plover]

If it's an apex sure

[versed rune]

so are we saying allo should not get stunned by a 2 ton animal ramming it at 40+mph with sharp horns?

[alpine plover]

But mid tier matchups should be multi faceted

[dusky surge]

Putting carno's damage values into account, there is no way on earth it is beating an allo with a charge before it shreds all its stam and fucking dies. The allo can and will tank those attacks and attack back with FAR greater damage numbers. Not to mention an allo will likely have the speed and agility to just fucking run circles around a carno if it chooses to brawl.

[alpine plover]

How can you say so? Allo isn't even in yet

[hollow canyon]

It will be possible, as I said - just like killing a Stego with Carno is possible(obviously not to the same extent). As long as animals don't outheal the damage output of one another killing them is possible. What I'm getting at is that the numbers that the community loves to use like "70-30", "60:40" or even "50:50" mean absolutely nothing. How would you describe the match ups in Evrima so far? They just elude such numerical descriptions for the most part.

[alpine plover]

If it counters a charge with a grapple
Then I could see it happening

[hollow canyon]

Like - what are the numbers for Utah vs Tenonto?

Do give me something to work with here

[wise sparrow]

Depends on how many

[jolly matrix]

I absolutely agree that the numbers are just dumb. I just used the numbers to simplify heavily what I was saying.

[versed rune]

so if allo has that much advantage against a carno, what is the problem with carnos charge affecting it?

[alpine plover]

And besides, landing a tackle on an Allo wouldn't doom it, it still has the massive brawl advantage, and hp/dps advantage.

[dusky surge]

Frankly, I think designing the literal thing that aims to destroy shit smaller than it to also kill allos will make shit like cera doomed to get fucking obliterated by the carno. If I can reliably kill an allo as a carno, then i should have no problem in obliterating the FAR smaller cera

[hollow canyon]

Do try to use an example that already exists in Evrima then so that I can grasp what you mean then

[dusky surge]

Encourages stupid lmao

[hollow canyon]

Would you want those match ups to be more similar to e.g. Utah vs Tenonto in update 2

or perhaps Carno vs Tenonto in update 3?

Just like Syrus said "it depends"

What would it depend on in Carno vs Allo example?

Does it depend on Carno landing the charge?

Allo missing its bites?

[versed rune]

you're not listening. we are not saying carno should be running around NUKING allos. we are saying that carno should be able to fight one as a rival and a competitor. should it not be able to do that????

[alpine plover]

It won't be used to immediately one-shot Allos smh
And the stam use for it's ability would limit it
It would simply just be another variable to add in the mix in that encounter

[hollow canyon]

I'd rather have you describe the circumstances in which Carno would be winning against an Allo

[jolly matrix]

Well Carno and Teno in update 3 were pretty even right. Teno could what, 4 tail slams? and boom a dead carno, but lets use that matchup as a template, and then switch it with carno and allo, then just tip the favors in allos hand a bit more then i think its fine

[hollow canyon]

What does it have to do to win this match so that it's fair

[jolly matrix]

Ambush. A carno should NEVER be fighting an allo head on.

[hollow canyon]

Alright so Carno ambushes an Allo and charges it while Allo doesn't see it coming

[dusky surge]

If there's a group of carnos, maybe the allo might have a problem. 1v1, the carno is literally defined in a space between pseudo-mid and mid, BARELY making the bottom of the mid roster.

[jolly matrix]

Carno then gets a few bites and weakens the allo

[hollow canyon]

does Carno now just kill the Allo by biting it while the Allo is stunned?

[versed rune]

there's a dead body. Carno wants it. Allo wants it. Carno stays out of range of allo's attacks. Carno lands a charge and some bites by either outmaneuvering it or ambushing it. Allo either gives up and leaves, or is killed.

[dusky surge]

It is small and going to get shit on

[jolly matrix]

then the fight can proceed in any way

the allo could potentially survive

the carno could potentially survive

who knows

[hollow canyon]

Why would Carno let it go?

[alpine plover]

Okay, Allo is standing there
Carno relys on it's charge to tackle, get one or two bites, then disengages to get stam back or charge again. But it is limited by stam.
For Allo's case, it dodges or punish missed charges, easily rendering it dead if it lands a grapple.
It can swipe some bites and make the situation really bad quickly if the Allo manages to trade bites with it

[hollow canyon]

It's faster, if it knows that it will kill it if the fight goes on then Allo is just bad(as in - a bad playable)

[dusky surge]

Carno is meant to be a non-brawler, if there's a body contest, more than likely a carno will lose due to its godawful brawl ability. Carno is designed to be offense, not defence

[versed rune]

this is literally a hypothetical situation. maybe the carno doesnt want to risk injury. This is, again, why carno should be weak in the durability department. cause if the carno makes a wrong move, allo can punish it.

[jolly matrix]

All of these hypothetical fights are HEAVILY based on the players decisions in the fight. The scenario I gave is what I would describe as a chance carno could win due to its beginning ambush but still the allo could survive and either kill the carno that ambushed it or scare it away

[alpine plover]

There's plenty of counterplay on room for error to have the Carno quickly rendered dead

[versed rune]

I agree about carno being offense and not defense. I also agree it should not be a brawler. But fights dont come down to JUST brawling. there are other battle strategies other than close combat.

[alpine plover]

Successive charges and trades for the Carno are less powerful and effective
Carno is defensive in nature as well

[hollow canyon]

That's not how people play this game though - the situations in which one person lets another one go after they gain the advantage in the initial part of the fight are... really something that only happens on the "body drop" servers

[alpine plover]

Allo despite these factors, should have the advantage no matter the skillgap

[jolly matrix]

No one said that.

[versed rune]

it was literally a hypothetical, most fights will in fact end in a death assuming the faster animal gets the upper hand. but at that point its the job of the more powerful, STRONGER animal to play defense and shut down the smaller, faster one

[hollow canyon]

Pesky said that carno "doesn't want to risk injury". It literally never stops people from attacking one another.

[versed rune]

and by shut down, i mean either scare away or outright kill the faster animal.

[versed rune]

if carno is balanced it wont have much hp compared to allo. allo can shut it down quickly if it lands its hits.

[alpine plover]

Even if Carno gets the initial upper hand, it has to repeat the process of continuing it's upper hand. As Allo would simply have to trade enough bites with it. Or grapple and doom it.

[versed rune]

thats why carno is faster. so it can AVOID being shut down quickly. and thats why allo is stronger. To AVOID being shut down by carno's sheer speed

[hollow canyon]

I mean - duh Allo will likely have some 1k hp more than Carno while presumably also having a higher biteforce. I don't see any scenario where Carno would be winning against Allo that's at all competent at the game.

[alpine plover]

You could remedy this fact as well that Tackle would not apply to base of tail or tip of tail shots either

[jolly matrix]

Its all very situational...

[versed rune]

for the last time im not disagreeing with you there

[alpine plover]

Making dodging more effective, and increasing room for error on the Tackle

[versed rune]

i agree that in a classic 1v1, no special conditions, allo should have an upper hand.

anything otherwise is illogical.

but to say that carno should have NO chance is equally as illogical.

the key word is "upper hand." not "win button."

[alpine plover]

If anything

[hollow canyon]

It most definitely won't have a win button

[alpine plover]

Allo's grapple would be it's "win button"

[hollow canyon]

but it will probably be so unlikely for Carno to win that it won't be worth even trying

[alpine plover]

Lands it, burns Carno's stam, it can no longer run away

Then shred it

[hollow canyon]

you'd probably have to make Allo miss you repeatedly over and over while landing a tonne of bites on it

[wise sparrow]

My mimi will crush both of them

[hollow canyon]

I just don't think it's a realistic scenario

[versed rune]

yes you would. thats the nature of the matchup. thats not impossible.

[alpine plover]

But it's interesting enough dynamic to make situations possible and have variables at play other than facetanking

[hollow canyon]

I'm sorry I typically assume that both people participating in that fight have at least a single brain hemisphere working

[versed rune]

fair assumption

[hollow canyon]

That's why I am quite an absolutist in terms of how match ups go

[dusky surge]

i mean, its the same way that it would take a genius utah vs a complete fool of a rex for rex to die to a utah. Possible, yes, technically, but so goddamn unlikely you'd need the stars to align.

[alpine plover]

Mhmm

Not a fair comparison

The gap is tremendous between Utah and Rex

[versed rune]

not a fair comparison at all

[alpine plover]

Less so between Carno and Allo, by a long shot

[hollow canyon]

e.g. - Spino dumpsters Giga in the legacy, while Rex dumpsters Spino, Deino murders Utah in Evrima and is pretty much immune to them. Carno plows through Utahs

When I say that something is impossible this is with the assumption that both sides play it optimally

If Allo is special then yea it will probably die, I've seen Deinos die to Utahs

[alpine plover]

That's the neat thing of special abilities , and the new movement, it should in practice make things less absolute

[hollow canyon]

Hmm... they are pretty absolute in the current game still

that's assuming that both sides play optimally

[alpine plover]

qa balance is hell, but we're talking about how it should function currently

[hollow canyon]

I'm actually more uncertain about the legacy match ups

E.g. while I say that Spino dumpsters Giga I quite regularly kill Spinos as a Giga

but that's mainly due to them making some form of a mistake

in Evrima... idk what would have to happen for Utahs to kill Deino

nvm I do - Deino has to be unaware of bucking and alt biting

[alpine plover]

Or player ignorance and lack of experience

[hollow canyon]

Evrima overall has imo more clear match up results than the legacy

aside from Carno vs Tenonto maybe

[alpine plover]

Anyways, I'm just not convinced that playables interacting in a similar tiered roster should be locked of interactivity from one another aside from just running or avoiding

Pachy is a great example of a much smaller thing which can have an upper hand on larger creatures, while remaining open to quick counters which result in death

[hollow canyon]

Same goes for Utah but I wouldn't compare Carno to either of those animals

[alpine plover]

Pachy being a brawler of course, but there should be other avenues or variables spreading as a spectrum for most playables

[hollow canyon]

With Carno it's more so about the fact that it's specifically designed to hunt smaller things, I don't think there's any good reason to make it have a particularly good chance of taking on an Allo

I think that Allo itself if anything could probably punch up more so than Carno

[alpine plover]

Moving up the sizes eventually hits a limit
Like Pachy shouldn't bust Acro or Rex knees
Or Carno not staggering Apexes or Stegos

[hollow canyon]

a pack of Allos would imo threaten even an apex

[dusky surge]

actually

holy shit

[hollow canyon]

just like a pack of Utahs could threaten Allos, Carno or what have you

[dusky surge]

if this is correct, a carno CAN stagger an allo

because an allo is apparently 2700kg

and a carno is 1800

[alpine plover]

What are you talking about?

[dusky surge]

And it can stagger anything that's 100-150% its size

[alpine plover]

Huh

[dusky surge]

It totally could stagger one

BARELY

[alpine plover]

Well I'll be damned

[hollow canyon]

If it can stagger things up to 150% of its size then yea, it would stagger both Alberto and Allo

[alpine plover]

So Carno tackle is canon?

[dusky surge]

Tackle? No

It'd be a small stun

[alpine plover]

Or stagger yeah

[dusky surge]

Like a teno hitting a carno with a tail

[hollow canyon]

It would be the same thing that happens when you charge another Carno

[dawn tangle]

@fallow scroll They're not working on Legacy anymore. once evrima is at a good state they are erasing legacy completely

[dusky surge]

Short stun

[hollow canyon]

It just gets staggered and can't move for a moment

[alpine plover]

I'm fine with a stagger too

[dusky surge]

Also it'd do less damage than a knockdown

[alpine plover]

I care about functionality, so it'd wouldn't bother me if theres no animation for it

[dusky surge]

you can test this on a steg, if you put it at around 2.6 tons through the admin menu and charge the thing

[alpine plover]

@versed rune u got ur wish, read above

[dawn tangle]

It also doesn't really make much sense. you were injured. if a real animal is injured by something their size then attacked by something smaller its still pretty accurate for that small thing to have a fighting chance between tiring and weakening an animal. It's also a skill based game and it would be very inaccurate for a dino to be based off of a dinosaur from a fictional film

[golden coral]

I'll just point out that this earlier stego vs carno/the rest convo is possibly a result of first balancing for the current roster and then for proper power (more or less, stego is still not full power by any means, much less a good or interesting playable, but the latter is another issue). Players get used to being able to do something that should not have happened in the first place. Stego is and should be treated on the same powerlevel as the other large "apexes", be they carnis or herbis. So whatever you want to apply to the stego, you should ask yourself if it sounds fine applied to a trike or rex or spino or something. A lot of this issue could have been avoided if stego had not been introduced this early. Imagine introducing rex right now and say "5 utahs should hunt it" or "carno should be able to kill it in 5-10 headshots".

[river nebula]

Elder allo tanking a Carno ram like a damn football player

[primal dove]

I hope once Gore gets released, as stupid as it sounds(balance-wise) , deino will be able to pop stegos head like a melon

[dusky surge]

ehh

i really ain't a fan of the whole "deino should kill stego a lot lmao" precedent going around

because that is frankly going to make stego fucking suck

since it needs to drink

[ember osprey]

I think it should be balanced

But atm the stego is broken in my opinion

[dusky surge]

Ehhh

[ember osprey]

I mean everyone needs to drink

[dusky surge]

Steg isn't that broken, issue is that utah got nerfed into oblivion

and the one thing that could deal with it was utah

without utah packs actually being viable, stegos are free to roam safely

[ember osprey]

Exactly as the deino should not be that powerful on land

[primal dove]

stego is on deinos diet list now tho, so that´s the problem

[ember osprey]

True too, and atm I've only seen deinos eating stegos when doing 4 adult deinos vs 1 stego

I think that's pretty ridicolous

[dusky surge]

Everything is on its diet list

That's the whole thing with deino

[ember osprey]

Yeah but it's like putting carno on dryo diet list. I mean or you don't put or just put everything to everyone

[dusky surge]

Dryo is a herbivore

[ember osprey]

Get my point, I meant that it's impossible

[dusky surge]

EVERYTHING is on deino's diet list tho

[primal dove]

but u get no nutrients from stuff like utah carno hypsi, u get red from stego, blue from teno and yellow from other deinos now

[dusky surge]

that's a glitch

not at all indicative of how deino should be

[ember osprey]

It's like "just put every out-of-league dino on the list, anyway they're not gonna kill it

[primal dove]

I like this glitch

[ember osprey]

That's exactly what I think it's wrong >>> It's like "just put every out-of-league dino on the list, anyway they're not gonna kill it

[dusky surge]

what

its a diet

it has EVERYTHING

[ember osprey]

I think you're not getting what I mean

[dusky surge]

fara

everything is on its diet

doesn't mean it should kill everything

all of the time