#balance-feedback-discussion

1 messages · Page 293 of 1

golden coral
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It's been changed then? Cause last I recall, yes, you stop, for all of what, a second, that's not really commitment, you can use tailslam and be on the move rather easily at least back then

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The stam is an issue all of it's own and probs need a buff there, damage change or not

dusky surge
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frankly, teno already has a fuckton of attacks

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making its attacks also a "jack of all trades" deal will bring people back to playing it

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ultimate generalist

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fastest quadruped (according to devs), fast swimmer, four attacks, a plethora of possible status effects. Let people fuck around and experiment with the thing, I swear to god it will get a solid playerbase if you give it flexibility

golden coral
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I don't know, you keep saying that, but I'm not sure you understand the Isle playerbase well enough :p Also not sure generalists are a good idea, but maybe it can work out

dusky surge
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teno isnt played because it kinda blows atm

golden coral
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Yes, that much we can agree on. But it was played before, despite not being anymore fancy than it currently is :p

dusky surge
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It kinda was more fancy because its moves did actual shit

golden coral
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So it's just a matter of damage then? :p

dusky surge
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i mean surew

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we can buff it up again

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i just wanted a more unique take than just it beating things to death

golden coral
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Which I'm fine with, even if we disagree on what kick/slam should do. My comment was more so that I don't think you have it right when you say this or that will make a critter played more or less

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Since teno was played before, purely because attacks did damage, not because it was any fancier/more of a generalist or anything like that

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Much as I would like it if critters were played because they are unique and cool and so on, I don't think the playerbase, at least current one, thinks like that

wise sparrow
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I want teno to be a swiss army dino. That's it.

sinful cove
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Frosty the icewing back at it again with the “turn herbivores in to fodder because i cant control myself and have to attack everything thet moves even when its way slower than me” suggestions

dusky surge
sinful cove
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TI_LUL you're right. what was i thinking, juvie utahs shouldn't be able to die that is unfair to them they should have the attack force of a full grown megalodon until adulthood so they can be properly balanced against dinos who are about as fast as a snail on tape

dusky surge
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also those numbers

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70% slower attack or 45% weaker attack

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holy shit man

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stego already has a slow attack when it comes to attacking its front and back and a period of vulnerability after attacking

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but sure

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make it literally lose in any fight

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make it either completely incapable of killing utahs or completely incapable of killing anything that isn't a utah

sinful cove
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This guy wants the game to be bubble wrapped for carni players like they are all brainlet preschool children

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Its crazy

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Its the second suggestion like this that they have made recently as well

dusky surge
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its really incredible how much people hate how in nature, herbivores can defend themselves and carnivores struggle heavily

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its like they watched nature documentaries which specifically shows successful hunts of carnivores and go "yep, that's how nature works"

sinful cove
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It’s laughably childish mentality thinking that any herbivore they stumble across should be food for them . It's so entitled lmao

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And yeah docs tend to show carni victories because it's “cooler”

dusky surge
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i like carnivores. I also like realism and challenge

sinful cove
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Thry skip over the lions getting butchered by the buffalo they tried to hunt or the zebra stomping a cheetah's brains into the dirt

dusky surge
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Most herbivores in the Isle are equipped to defend themselves, its up to the carnivores to get around their defences and kill

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AKA, real life nature

sinful cove
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The herbivores are also slower than their predators in the isle

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And idiotic carni mains want fights to be equal or skewed in their facour despite having the engagement advantage

dusky surge
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Carnivores should have to assess if its worth going up against a creature and justify risk vs reward of taking a hunt

sinful cove
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It should be a challenge, that is the whole point of picking carni aside from the “cool” factor

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The challenge of the hunt

dusky surge
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I think, personally, overcoming a massive herbivore and getting a huge meal for yourself and your pack is rewarding in itself

sinful cove
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But for some reason some weirdos want herbis to be complete fodder so they can feel like they accomplished something in steamrolling something that looks tough but really isnt

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This is what participation trophy treatment turns people in to

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Entitled af

sinful cove
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Feels good to see some doofus playing the same dino as you die against an enemy that you then win against

dusky surge
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yea

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so tired of entitled carni mains lmao

golden coral
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I think people tend to ignore that it's only one specific attack angle of the stego that has that very quick attack. And that angle is near the hind leg if I recall correctly, not near the head that you might want to attack if you're going for a bite. Or if you're going for a pounce, well, use your pack and distractions, or bait an attack from a different angle, and pounce from there. You do have the slotting still after all, so you can get on rather easy still.

dusky surge
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I find the "pachy is the most broken dino ever please nerf" shit also comes a great deal from carno mains specifically

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since they're so used to winning by doing one method over and over again that the moment a dino has a counter, they're stumped

sinful cove
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Anything more than a facetank strategy will give the people who make these suggestions a headache

dusky surge
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lmao

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people wondering why their speed-based dino isnt great at facetanking

sinful cove
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They want to be both the cheetah and the tiger

dusky surge
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i really hope cera just puts these facetank carnos in their place and forces them to play like they should

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dont make carno unviable, just punish it for playing in an unviable manner

slim dragon
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I just read their older messages on other channels
"Carno should be able to kill teno with no sweat" TI_Yikes
They literally want to nerf every herbi to the ground

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I am ashamed by the mindset of my fellow carni mains

alpine plover
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Pretty sure this same sentiment leaked into the qa branch tho

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Someone making the balance decisions likely thought so with the teno/utah/carno changes

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Now it seems like backpedaling by releasing Pachy in a competent strong state in response

sinful cove
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Utah was already in a kinda sorry state before qa but tenonto got hard shafted

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Both need a lot of tlc

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And carno needs to be knocked down a peg

alpine plover
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I feel like buffs and competition should resolve that

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I'd rather not have everything play like dog water

slim dragon
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Boom
Essay in general feedback

versed rune
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Still disappointed yet not surprised to see people thinking that nerfing something is always the answer

alpine plover
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Depends on the nerf sometimes

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Sometimes it's very justified

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Like the og qa Carno charge

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Shit dealt damage, bleed, stun, and fracture all in one attack

versed rune
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wait wait wait it did bleed?

alpine plover
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Apparently

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And Carno's normal bite deals bleed like a mf

versed rune
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and I agree it does depend on the nerf, but in general it’s better to give buffs than hand out nerfs

alpine plover
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Better than Utah does

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Also, the severity of buffs it depends as well

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If to say, there was two broken playables in the game with busted abilities like og qa Carno charge

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Then buffing everything to compensate would lead to insufferable power creep

sinful cove
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Utahs numbers are fine i think but it suffers from bugs and that weird ass pounce delay

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Its honestly hard to gauge how suitable utah's actual stats are with how buggy it is

alpine plover
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It's impossible considering pounce is a 50/50

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So can't say for certain

sinful cove
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Pounce bounces you off like a rubber ball on hits that should have worked

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And it feels like they reduced its range on top of the delay but idk

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I didnt play with it much

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Cus i hate utah but man i feel kinda bad for it

alpine plover
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I tried testing again but without relying on pounce in the qa a few days ago
It's a bitch without it, and ironically has Legacy Pachy syndrome, where Evrima Pachy is now in doing this well...

sinful cove
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I would think fixing pounce would be among the top priorities since they want utah to rely on it so much

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I think utah having a shitty bite is fine but its pounce should work like come on lmao

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A carno can run in and kill 8 utahs and then steamroll a tenonto in one session

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Absolute war machine

alpine plover
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Tbh, I'd rather it not be dependent on that ability for hunting or combat given how much variables or counterplay there is.
Make it suited only for bleeding large targets.
It's shitty bite just makes it have nubbed teeth against prey way smaller than it. And gives little ass Carnos free shots to kick it's ass.

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It's fine with the tiny health, should be dodging anyways

sinful cove
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For hunting small shit like hypsi it should be able to use bite reliably but with an actual good pounce (which it lacjs obviously) it should use that way more on large enemies

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And not back to in an earlier patch where utahs were just biting stegos

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And dryos and utahs were soloing stegos with biting

alpine plover
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Tbh, I think that's always gonna be the case regardless because Stego is just designed so shitty

sinful cove
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Stego came too soon

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And honestly, carno too

alpine plover
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Nerfing Utah bite resolves the symptom rather than the cause
What do you think Troodon is gonna do to Stego huh?

sinful cove
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Well troodon is designed to use venom

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Its his gimmick

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Utah's gimmick is rawr xd pounce

alpine plover
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Yeah, and it's tiny size and agility is gonna make the jab hilarious

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Troodon hunting Stego in packs of 2-3 is gonna happen

sinful cove
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I bet its gonna be either mega busted or mega shit when its released

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Its how isle works

alpine plover
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It's one of the two

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It's way too small to have shit venom

sinful cove
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Were either gonna have troodons soloing stegos or troodon dying to a hypsi

alpine plover
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There's little alternative unless they rework Stego

slim dragon
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Or trample damage will exist

alpine plover
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Give Utah a bit of oomf it's in bite relative size, Stego is competent against mostly everything
Everyone wins

sinful cove
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Troodons should be more focused on pack hunting things like tenonto and utah packs should be more geared towards the bigger things

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And deino… idk it came too soon as well

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Guess well have to wait for more semiaquatics to deal with the gator epidemic

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Deino, stego and carno came before their time

alpine plover
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Sucho respectively

sinful cove
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Shoulda been cerato, kentro and perhaps beipi

alpine plover
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Ideally

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But there's no road back now unfortunately

sinful cove
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Yeah were stuck with this trio now

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Hopefully cerato comes soon and they stop trying to make carno an all-rounder as a start

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And utah gets a fixed pounce and tenonto gets his wet noodle nerf reversed

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And deinos weird weight issue

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Thats a new problem theyve thrown at us lol

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Add to the horror

alpine plover
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So resolutions:
Teno needs to brawl effectively again
Utah needs a bit of a push for the bite, Pounce needs to work
Carno needs an equalizer. Aka Cerato
Pachy is a good boy
Hypsi needs to be complete
Deino weight
Stego rework

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One thing I'm not sure on though is Pachy alt attack

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I'm not entirely convinced it should deal stuns

sinful cove
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It should deal stuns on headshots, knockdowns on bodyshots and just appropriate damage on tail shots imo

alpine plover
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Hmmmm

sinful cove
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Its dumb to get CCed from a tail hit lol unless its a grab which we dont have yet

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Carno charge, teno slam and pachy smack shouldnt cc on tail hits

alpine plover
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I view alt attacks more leaning as a stationery attack for trading hits

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Having it as a stun is a bit overtuned

sinful cove
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I think its pachys gimmick really

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Like its hard to tell without testing out how bad he'd be with one less cc but idk

alpine plover
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Yeah, it is. But the Headbutt is reliably devastating as it should be, yet counterable
So having yet another stun in it's back pocket and more use of use seems like alot

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I'd be fine if the alt attack still did concussions though on headshots

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And did aoe damage

sinful cove
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How much stam does its alt cc cost too

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If it dealt good head fracture i think the cc could be dropped because it applies a similar affect with blurred vision and whatnot

alpine plover
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I don't think Pachy's alt attack is significant on stam

sinful cove
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They could also try upping the stam cost then

alpine plover
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Okay, so you know about concussions right?

sinful cove
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Yeah

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They were planned right

alpine plover
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They're in rn

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I tested it

sinful cove
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O nice

alpine plover
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How it works is if a Pachy drills you in the head(as a Utah)
You're entire screen is blurred, it decreases in vision overtime, your playable makes very loud noises in pain for a long period. And you have to rush to somewhere safe as you go blind

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Your health drops slowly too, so it's sort of a rush to get away

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Thing is though, I think there was a stun that happened too
So having two really powerful deterrents combined in one attack is making me unsure

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In that state, you're one shot after the initial attack too

sinful cove
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Yeah if it deals good head fracture i think it should be suitable enough

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One or the other, rather than both

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A stun or heavy fracture

alpine plover
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That's what I was thinking
Headbutt for the devastation
Alt attacks for trading/concussing

sinful cove
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Since pachy's whole gimmick is powerful blunt damage, having both of those things makes sense but they shouldn’t both be in one attack

alpine plover
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Cause let me tell you, when you're concussed, you're really helpless on the receiving end, you're out of commission, vulnerable by sound, dying, and blind

sinful cove
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Should be encouraged to switch up attacks like tenonto does (even tho teno is trash rn)

alpine plover
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You can only run away and pray it doesn't pursue you
While laying low and trying not to die from the health dropping for too long

sinful cove
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So a stun AND concussion is busted for one attack. Should requite two successful separate attacks if you want to apply both

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lol i cant imagine concussions rn with all fracture basically being full bb from legacy

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I havent dealt with it yet

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Sounds nightmarish

alpine plover
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Trust me, it's strong

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Despite the dire situation, I was pretty pleased

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I like interesting mechanics and variables as a carnivore
Gives me challenge

sinful cove
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That feeling of “wow i fucked up” is a lot better than “wtf this game”

alpine plover
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Pretty much

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I now know as a Pachy too that just concussing someone on the head can send a Utah scampering if it slips up into my attack

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Though the stun might be too much for it, that's my only issue

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But concussions get a 10/10 in my book

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Tenoto should get them for back kicks

sinful cove
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Yeah it probably kicks like a horse on roids

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It makes sense

alpine plover
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I'd rather have Teno brawler oriented than it being a ninja with a bunch of status effects

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Bleed and fracture jutsu's

sinful cove
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Brawler tenonto was cool when it wasn’t wet pasta for carnos to casually bully

alpine plover
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Yeah

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Tail slams would be it's main weapon for the range

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Kicks for concussing after landing after landing a headshot, since the range is so short

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Claws for agile Utahs, and doing a bit of bleed

sinful cove
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And bite for um

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Basically just shittalking

alpine plover
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Nothing

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Pretty much

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Hitting your friends

sinful cove
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Bite is just “rawr im an asshole look at me biting air”

alpine plover
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BM'ing

sinful cove
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Lotta people do it so i guess they think its effective lol

alpine plover
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Intimidating is an important skill in nature

sinful cove
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Though its nice to have it to bite your annoying friends while theyre juvies and you cant slap them yet

alpine plover
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So yeah, I'm a concussing advocate now

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I'd even route for a second tier, a daze concussion

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It'd work like a flashbang

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Brief, but confusing and blinding

sinful cove
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I hope para gets a daze. Bit offtopic but speaking of daze

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Making his big voice his gimmick would be cool

alpine plover
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Dazes could work for Para, really well

sinful cove
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Just boom your bass in predators faces and haul ass

alpine plover
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People assume they'd troll with them, then just don't mixpack lmao
Make Para themselves resistant to it

dusky surge
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Para having AoE would be extremely interesting for a dino

sinful cove
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Also it could have diminishing returns

alpine plover
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Aoe dazes?

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Yeah

sinful cove
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To make it ineffective to spam

alpine plover
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Make them recharge based, like voice

dusky surge
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I mean, the amount of air used and the voice would be impacted if you spammed it

sinful cove
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If para spams its daze its voicr gets hoarse, and also victims get a diminishing return so they cant be locked by a para train

dusky surge
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It would make para packs the most goddamn nightmarish things ever lmao

alpine plover
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Para with a concussion daze is actually viable and believable

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Other playables would tend to avoid them as well

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Herbi's and Carni's

dusky surge
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“PREDATOR SIGHTED, EVERYONE SCREAM”
predator has a stroke while paras boom in unison

sinful cove
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I remember thinking of a para daze way back when i was chilling in swamp as a spino at night and like 5 pras come in to my nightvision range, surround me and 3 call me all at once

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It literally turned my speakers to static

alpine plover
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It'd be funny to see a confused Rex bite air, and sprint towards water after being dazed trying to ambush

dusky surge
alpine plover
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Guys, Para is just a superior Hypsi

sinful cove
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I had a screenshot of it somewhere, looked like some metal band cover lmao

dusky surge
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Herbis def need more cool unique mechanics, para AoE daze would def be awesome for an otherwise slow animal that often gets bodied by apexes

alpine plover
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Yeah, Utah's would have to coordinate better in hunts too

sinful cove
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Id consider para to be moderate speed rather than slow, least it should be

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Moderate speed and good stam. Hadros in general should be great travelers

alpine plover
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They shouldn't group up, and have everyone get hit by it in an aoe
Leaving an entire pack running around like headless chickens

sinful cove
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Yeah it would definitely help out the otherwise pounce magnet hadrosaurs

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Like they look so easy to pounce

alpine plover
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Two Paras?
I could see them being formidable by timing their sonic attacks cooperatively

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What would be fodder are now a tricky matchup to bring down

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Not from raw stats as well, which makes it interesting

sinful cove
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Hadros as a whole i think should be cc gods, and otherwise not very strong offensively. Their gimmick should be CC and then choosing between running and neutralizing the threat, but not really dangerous to non CCed attackers

alpine plover
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If they can't CC, they should be capable of fleeing

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the whole "sonic attack" sounds too ark-ish

sinful cove
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Like shant should have to knock you over before it can reach you with a lower to the ground stomp barrage, rather than rearing up and slamming your shit in while youre standing up

alpine plover
sinful cove
alpine plover
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like hadrosaurs as an entirety had resonating nasal chambers

sinful cove
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Para though is known for his trumpet voice

alpine plover
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Besides, we already have concussions as a status effect within the game
Having a slightly edited version of that coming from a ranged aoe ability is very doable in mechanics right now

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besides, it is diet and habitat which differentiates the ecological niches of animals, not the way they attack.

sinful cove
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What unique role would you have para play then? Not some boring cookie cutter overgrown whitetail deer j hope

alpine plover
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I don't think a trumpet voice would classify as an offensive attack
More like a deterrent, or tool to use

sinful cove
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Its no more offensive than hypsi spit (which is trash for actual defense now to be fair)

alpine plover
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Utah's trying to pounce you? Daze them, if they keep trying they'll be unaware of where you are, and leave them open to counterattack if they run towards you or miss a pounce

golden coral
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I would be fine with giving para something interesting with its calls. I know there's also been talks about longer range chat and stuff, so why not a bit of both. Work with the sound, both as a social/"defensive" feature as well as an added offensive/"damage" feature. And with Para being immune to their own calls, any fights between Paras would be slightly different to what they do to others, which I personally like. (Big fan of doing things like making troodons/dilo immune to their own venom, so they have to think differently fighting their own vs hunting others and so on).

alpine plover
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Fighting in dense forests or near cliffs would make it near impossible to bring down as well
Giving them an edge unless you slowly burn out it's ability

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the african plains have a shit ton of antelope species, and most have basically the same defense strategy. Sounding the alarm and then trying to outrun the predator, perhaps kicking it or trying to trampling it along the way. The thing which diffrentiates them is their ranges on the continent and their diet and feeding strategies (e.g. buffalo eat whatever grass there is, wildebeest are picky and only go for the freshest shoots)

golden coral
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Yeah but this is a game, so we can make it a bit more fun you know

sinful cove
alpine plover
golden coral
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There's a reason I want my stego rework, and for the same reason, giving Para something cool like this could work. And you still tune it to be defensive/evasive and more of a runner than not in most encounters.

alpine plover
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actually the whole sonic attack may not be so unreasonable.

golden coral
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I figure shant would be more of the "fighter", and hell, even maia could, aren't they built pretty stocky and all?

alpine plover
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I think in the context of the game's ecosystem, having differentiating factors should be sought after to reduce sandbox redundancy
We have Teno, Maia, Para, and Shant. There needs to be mechanics in place to have separate attractive enticements for each playable

sinful cove
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Just a cookie cutter run away herbivore with nothing unique. How is para supposed to run when it is big and slow? Its daze would help

sinful cove
alpine plover
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Making them fodder to catch

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Elephants can produce sonic amounts of sound to literally shake the insides of predators and scare them off from such volume

sinful cove
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Dont the frequencies of tiger roars also fuck some animals up

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Like its realistic shit to add this

alpine plover
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Parrots can do so as well, by releasing frequencies to annoy and literally harm their attackers senses with repetitive sound

alpine plover
sinful cove
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Para deserves this

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So much

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I sincerely hope they dont just make it yet another “just run even though youre slower” incident

alpine plover
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It is no way unreasonable by those accounts, especially a past real creature with implicated biological sound manipulation to have it in a video game

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apparently people can get "paralysed" by a lion's roar, though idk if this is true or not.

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Tigers moreso, they're roars can shake you inside out

sinful cove
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Ive heard if it with tiger roars, lion roars can be heard from a massive distance though so i wouldnt be surprised if they can do it

alpine plover
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All I'm saying if Parrots, Elephants, Tigers can do it

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Para should too

sinful cove
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Para should also not get that stupid headbutt back

alpine plover
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Especially if it has literal evolution adaptations for frequency manipulation

sinful cove
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So dumb using the hollow head dong as an offensive weapon

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Like in melee

alpine plover
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Ig it's kick would be it's main attack

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I'm fine with Para having mediocre combat if it has something cool as fuck as this

sinful cove
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A shoulder check, kick, punch and horn blast should be a good enough moveset

golden coral
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@alpine ploverIf we get some calls like that, we need them inspired by real life para as much as possible :p

sinful cove
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All hadros should have a shoulder check and some form of kick imo

alpine plover
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Allo trying to solo? Inflict daze, get a good number of hits on it
Have it out of commission to pursue further

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It can apply to most things all the way upto Acro

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Therefore, viable

sinful cove
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It could probably daze acro but its attacks would be pretty useless so best to cc and then get out of sight lol

alpine plover
alpine plover
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Like Pachy fracture

sinful cove
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Well i mean, that sound study they did on para could be an inspiration for the call noise

sinful cove
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Land cc first, then fight or flight depending on the situation

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Not very offensive unless you land the cc

alpine plover
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True, maybe except Maia, it should be tanky Galli, but can still fight

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Maia is hard to think of

sinful cove
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Maia should still be tanky and fast but not offensive on the move like legacy maia

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I think its headbutt should halt its momentum

alpine plover
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Legacy Maia was cool, the best migratory herbie

sinful cove
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Yeah i loved it

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It should get a shoulder check and a backwards kick but its forward attack shouldnt be spammable while running

alpine plover
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No issues here if they don't give it anything cool and just straight ported it, it's tanky speedy gameplay was enough for me

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Maybe nesting mechanics it'd double down on

sinful cove
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If it forward attacks while running it should lose its momentum to avoid the cases where it would just run down dilos and headbutt them to death

alpine plover
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Make it overpopulate like a plague

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Massive herds coming up hot like fast food

sinful cove
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Maia is the good mother lizard after all

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It should get some form of nesting bonus imo

alpine plover
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Yeah, it'd excel at creating and upping numbers, while also benefitting individually

alpine plover
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Straight up boom from there should inflict longer dazes based on range

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Prevents spamming, rewards timing

sinful cove
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Spamming could be prevented with diminishing returns on both ends too, either or

alpine plover
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Two could work

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It'd be funny to play chicken as well with your friend

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An approaching Giga starts charging

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Whoever calls first to save their life loses

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Right when it's near point blank range

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Boom

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It's fucking blinded, and the two guys barely dodge

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Giga's now neck deep in a river

dusky surge
sinful cove
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Yea we talked bout that its pretty cool how animals can use sound as a weapon like that

#

Hell, even us humans do it, dog whistles come to mind

#

And isnt there a frequency that some older movies played that automatically makes humans uneasy

#

I heard something about that

dusky surge
#

I genuinely like the idea

#

Don’t give para a ridiculous looking attack with a ridiculous amount of damage, make its primary tool for survival the thing that makes it most iconic

barren oracle
dusky surge
#

Every attack for para in legacy looked ridiculous for the animal imo

sinful cove
#

The headbutt was so dumb lol

dusky surge
#

One used the pathetic legs to swipe at the opponent, the other used a hollow fucking skull to head butt

sinful cove
#

Backwards kick to combat smalls, a shoulder check, a punch is fine even though it does look kinda silly, and then the sound cc

#

Kick should be for quad stance and punch for biped stance

#

In quad stance its punch would just do a flimsy ass bite

#

Stamping with front legs can be for shant. Not the shit it had in legacy tho lol that was wack

dusky surge
#

Daze should be an effect cancelled by damage to help it be better for disorientation and evasion over KOS and combat

#

Rex uses stam to close gap and get near you
Use disorienting call to delay predator and make an escape or distance, wasting the stam and assisting in an escape

smoky palm
#

you're just garbage and thats why you're mad

unborn iris
#

"A carno should be able to kill a teno no sweat" basically invalidates any of your opinions.

primal dove
#

I think they should just increase the stam cost for the stego jab and lower its health from 8k down to 6k same should go for deino tbh

golden coral
#

Stego only has 6K health right now? And increasing the stam cost would make the stego very hard to defend itself with, unless it currently has way more than twenty swings? We can see how bad it goes for teno, and it has far more fighting capability in the first place.

primal dove
#

wait they nerfed stegos health?

primal dove
#

so that u still can spam it theoretically but at some point you´ll run out

golden coral
#

Stego never had 8K health?

#

No idea where you got that from, that would be deino that has that much

golden coral
# primal dove yea maybe like 35-40 swings and then it´d run out

How in the world are you counting? Last I played stego, which was admittedly before this whole QA mess, you had about 19-21 swings, depending on if you used the quick jab only or not. And I know stego at one time only had about 10 swings, but that was pretty rough for it, especially since it has less alternatives than teno when it comes to attacks with stamina cost.

#

In any case, about 20-25 swings should be just fine for stego as it stands, no need for it to have any more.

primal dove
#

hmm ok I thought current stego had like 70 swings idk never played it lol

#

20-25 swings is perfect

golden coral
#

Well if it does, then it sure has changed.. xD

grave veldt
#

Yk what the problem is is that they added stego with no other apex-ish animals

golden coral
grave veldt
#

Exactly

hollow canyon
#

Stego doesn't have 70 swins and it never had more hp than the current 6k. At the time when it had 10 swings it was just fodder. I've soloed Stegos with a Carno on that patch.

#

I don't think they've changed Stego's stamina cost on swing, it should be the same as on livebranch.

spare badger
#

Stego is fine. It shouldn't be in the game rn but that's besides the point.

Carno needs a nerf, everyone knows that. At least they removed the fracture from charge, but it's much too nimble and strong.

Poor Teno was shafted cause they listened to all the salty carnos, and reverting it back would be perfectly fine

Pachy I don't personally have experience with but it seems okay right now.

hollow canyon
#

It absolutely wouldn't be anywhere near "perfectly fine" to revert Tenonto

#

It would be about as fine as bringing back update 2 Utah

#

I genuinely don't think that people played much Tenonto on the livebranch at all.

#

Going by what's being said here.

#

For context: reverted Tenonto tailslam would take out 80% of Utah's health upon a bodyhit, not a headshot but a bodyhit

#

You would also oneshot Pachy's with a headshot

sinful cove
#

Pachy and utah are faster, and utah should be trying not to get hit in the first place

hollow canyon
#

I mean - yea they are but that doesn't mean they should be getting oneshot by the tailslam. I'm fine with them dying to the second one but taking them out with a single attack is a bit absurd.

#

I've been saying the same for Carno's charge when it was instakilling Utah in update 3.75 - Carno should be required to put in some additional time to get back to that Utah after hitting it and have to attack it again

slim dragon
#

Doesn't pachy take reduced damage to the head ? Since it had more health than utah, I don't see it being oneshot to the head by a update 2 teno tailslam

hollow canyon
#

Idk what it's multiplier is for the head but so far I haven't seen anything that would suggest it takes less damage on the head

#

seemed to be taking the normal damage from Carnos when they were landing headshots

#

The point stands - that damage is too high for the current game. There are reasons why the biteforces of everything went down, Tenonto might need a slight buff to its damage and some additional buffs but it shouldn't get back to 360 damage on the tailslam

slim dragon
#

Yeah that would be a little too much

hollow canyon
#

In general I have a couple ideas as to how to buff Tenonto to get it to have a fair match up against Carno, although some of them might require fractures to be fully completed

spare badger
#

Perhaps if they left tail slam damage low but nerfed it's Stam use and nerfed carno it would be ok

sinful cove
#

it cant punish carno with low tail slam damage. carno outbrawls teno with its wet noodle damage

#

even if it doesnt get returned to its old value it needs to do more than it does in qa, stamina use isnt the problem when the attack itself is also trash

hollow canyon
#

I kind of agree that it should deal more damage than it does now tbh

#

I just genuinely oppose it doing 360

#

Alternatively it could have the stun replaced by bonebreak on one of its attacks(kick perhaps?) making it so that when you CC the Carno with one attack you can then break its leg with another attack.

spare badger
#

If you kick the carno it stuns and tail slam breaks its bones? Could work

umbral inlet
#

Im convinced that the right balance for all dinos lies in alpha damage nerfs and bone break and bleeding buffs. At least, if its gonna feel wild and real. I watch a LOT of natural predator stuff, and living beings are incredibly resilient against raw physical trauma. Most animals die of attrition from broken bones, blood loss from wounds, or strangulation. The most efficient predators kill using asphyxiation.
The greatest threat to a predator is getting its face broken. So I agree with the alpha damage nerf to teno. But it should have some serious stun capability, and the chance of putting debuffs like a concussion or broken ribs or something.

hollow canyon
dusky surge
hollow canyon
#

Interesting I haven't noticed that but tbh I haven't fought Pachys all that much until now

#

Pachy should be safe from getting oneshot then

#

Although it would be going down to one tailslam and 2 bites/1 clawswipe

opaque yoke
#

Maybe a desync issue? Or a bug if they really can swing while swimming, but before the most recent test branch patch stegos definitely couldn't swing while swimming

fresh laurel
#

surprised people agreed with my utah weight buff thing

#

if i said to buff weight for combat bet no one would say yes lol

hollow canyon
#

I personally don't think it would hurt if Utah got beefed up to 500kg, which is its irl weight but idk how that would affect its ability to drag bodies. Is the relation between the weight of the dinosaurs and the weight of the dragged body even public knowledge? I don't think this has been disclosed as of yet.

fresh laurel
#

more weight means more pinning and more draging

#

but since weight is same as hp it makes balancing harder

unborn iris
#

I don't think they want it pinning an adult pachy.

dusky surge
#

why not make adult pachy like 600kg then

sinful cove
#

Out utah is scrappy af compared to actual utah

#

It would feel dumb for it to weigh as much as actual utah. Is it secretly full of cement blocks or something?

#

Unless they beef up its appearance it would just be weird for that little goblin to weigh as much as his stocky and muscular namesake

alpine plover
#

Okay

#

So after some practice

#

The most effective tool for Utah in actual direct combat is the alt bite

#

The normal bite is straight up useless, as alt biting in combat is deals fair enough damage

#

The pounce is still pretty shitty too

#

But hardmode strafing and aoe alt biting through the sides and base of the tail is the only way Utah can combat with anything

#

Still need to test this on Pachy's on Teno's

#

Tried it on Carno

alpine plover
#

Somewhat effective against Pachy, but the stuns on it's alt attack leave little counterplay

#

It's overtuned, died from pounce again as it was able to hit me somehow, but I'll chalk up the death as a bug

#

Gonna look for Teno's next

#

But Teno is kinda shitty anyways rn

#

So I'll do it for the sake of it

alpine plover
#

Utah is still pretty shitty, alt biting is not valid after testing

#

Glad to see Pachy doing good though

golden coral
#

@alpine ploverI'm fine with removing the punishment on missing, especially since pounce is all kinds of buggy. Not sure on changing stats, especially since from what I know, bleed on the pounce is plenty lethal, more so now with limited wallowing. As for if pounce should do bleed or damage, I'm fine with either, as long as it is one or the other, and pounce have a given purpose, be it as main damage tool or as finisher.

barren oracle
#

I mean when pounce is mastered it will have the ability to chose the direction you jump off at, and different punishments for missing based on speed

#

Its just collision thats fucked up to work with

golden coral
#

I'm not sure on changing stats on it until it actually works, since we don't even know how good or bad it is right now due to all the bugs.

#

At least not in QA, since we have no good way to easily test there

alpine plover
barren oracle
#

I did a tiny bit of testing with Juvies

#

Utah pounce does enough bleed cause of the lack of mud pools

#

And bite can maintain bleed enough to take anything slow down

#

(not counting deino)

alpine plover
#

Mhmm, I'd disagree. We were told that a single Utah pounce would "cripple" a Carno even if it bucked
That hasn't been the case in qa

#

There's plenty leeway for them to continue a rampage post pounce

barren oracle
alpine plover
#

Not really, a missed pounce means instant death pretty much

#

since it has paper hp

#

and shit bleed resist

barren oracle
#

Carno is large and fast. Its Job is to prey on small dinos

#

Utah is either small small game hunter or big game

#

not really inbetween

alpine plover
#

And Utah is meant to prey on large prey, that's the conundrum in the matchup

golden coral
# alpine plover I'd personally be in favour of the latter option As missed pounces could filter...

I'd be fine with damage, but then you'd have to A, make it so the utahs need to bite a lot (with very low damage but bleed focused bite), first in order to be able to use the pounce without falling off in a second or two, and B, increase stamina cost and ramp up on the damage over time so you have to weaken the prey properly before being able to kill it, or you'll just get bucked off over and over and be unable to get anywhere since the target would just recover both stam and health before you can keep pouncing.

golden coral
barren oracle
#

Honestly we need more carnivores and herbivores + bug fixes before utah is done

golden coral
#

Bug fixes first and foremost, and then better prey items yes

#

Why they decied to introduce utah and then fill up with a roster of some of the worse matchups.. :p

barren oracle
#

I want Utahs to stab themselves on kentro ngl

alpine plover
barren oracle
#

They shouldnt of added carno or stego or deino

#

Mono, Dilo, cerato + kentro, beipi and gali would of been better

#

mabye even herra would be better

#

^^ those would add some jungle dinos too

golden coral
#

@alpine ploverThe idea would be that utahs would use their bite (id like it if it added a claw swipe in the anim) to stack bleed, and then when the prey is weak, launch pounces, drain the preys stam so by the third pounce rotation, the prey can no longer buck em off and then they have the time to shred it with the pounce

alpine plover
golden coral
#

Nah, they meant cripple as in you have 20% blood left

barren oracle
#

I mean if 3-4 utahs landed a pounce that would make a lot of sense

golden coral
#

And that would be without running around at that if I recall correctly, so yeah, that would be harsh :p

barren oracle
#

Utah does relay on packs tho

#

hence its max groups of 8

#

and slow eating

#

Its a trade of sorts

alpine plover
#

Idk, I just think it needs a change

#

Had a pack of near 8-10

#

None of us felt encouraged to take on a Stego

golden coral
#

It could yes. I'd like it if we had a clear idea of what the pounce is meant to do in the first place, and what the goal is in how a utah hunts and all

alpine plover
#

With a pack that big, I see that as a problem

barren oracle
#

Honestly Update 3 or 2 and i would take that fight all the way

alpine plover
#

That too, but the gap is pretty big from stats alone

golden coral
#

i think it depends on who you ask as well. Just because utahs can hunt big prey in large packs does not mean that it should be a common thing perhaps. Which would be fine in a proper roster

alpine plover
#

Even without the bugs, I didn't feel confident we could take it on just from the stat values of pounce

golden coral
#

Just because 10 utahs can hunt a rex, does not mean they should ever feel comfortable doing so perhaps

alpine plover
#

And with a pack of 10, that should literally be the perfect pack range for apex hunting

golden coral
#

So it depends a bit on how you see it, is it a matter of it being doable, or outright comfortable

alpine plover
#

But none of us dared too

barren oracle
#

Utah just needs better hitboxes and better players

golden coral
#

Well, maybe that's a good thing. Hunting apexes might not be a common thing

barren oracle
#

Actually i believe that there should be difficulty in the selection screen

alpine plover
#

It should given circumstances like that

golden coral
#

And that would be another issue with lack of balancing, we have no clue on what they want

barren oracle
#

Cause Dinos like Utah and Teno are quite difficult to play

golden coral
#

Well, you think so. I'm a bit undecided, and I know some who would disagree with you :p

barren oracle
#

whereas stegos and carnos are quite easy

alpine plover
#

Deinos are easy mode

barren oracle
#

Their mechanics are simple to understand and use productively

golden coral
#

What mechanics xD

#

Well, carno has but still

alpine plover
#

I just think playables shouldnt be inherently invincible from tiers

barren oracle
#

Whereas say teno has multiple ability's to master and utah takes more skill

alpine plover
#

Especially a playble geared to take on large prey

#

There are exceptions ofc

golden coral
#

@alpine ploverBut this is a problem with balance I think, or balance vision. It's hard to argue when there's no basic "this is the goal we're trying to achieve"

barren oracle
#

Honestly they do need a difficulty thing on selcetion screen

golden coral
#

Problem with "large" prey for a utah is also that utah is 500 kg, there's a big gap in large up to 8T+

alpine plover
#

Like legit, it was really jarring to just have a big ass pack of 10 collectively go "nah" at the sight of a lone stego in a field

golden coral
#

Not like a 4-6T prey is "small" for a utah xD Or small in general

barren oracle
#

ya know that screen with the dino running on it? Put a difficulty thing on the top left Like in red letters hard, orange medium, green easy

#

That would be really nice to newer players

golden coral
alpine plover
#

I think it's distinguishable

barren oracle
#

I mean there is very different levels very easily distinguishable

golden coral
#

Not reallyu

alpine plover
#

It is

barren oracle
#

Like Ptera and deino is an easy

golden coral
#

I don't think utah demands skill at all

alpine plover
#

lol

golden coral
#

The pounce is easy to land when it works ;)

barren oracle
alpine plover
golden coral
#

Doesn't matter

alpine plover
#

Wh

golden coral
#

You dont miss

#

It's easy to land

barren oracle
alpine plover
#

That does matter

barren oracle
#

and learn mechanics

golden coral
#

no it doesnt matter Nacen, not when its very easy to not miss

#

That's the thing. Punishments dont matter when the ease of use is there

barren oracle
#

whereas ptera is just a casual experience

alpine plover
#

It does matter period

golden coral
#

No

barren oracle
#

It really does

golden coral
#

it does not

alpine plover
#

Clicking too early legit kills you

golden coral
#

But it's very easy to not do that

barren oracle
#

Utah is not remotely easy to play comparing to other dinos

alpine plover
#

If you anecdotally say "I never miss" doesn't validate your point

golden coral
#

Right, you don't measure skill the same way I do

#

Hence why I said what is difficult is not that easy to measure

alpine plover
#

I measure skill based on hard baked mechanics

golden coral
#

Because you count things that are irrelevant in my eyes

#

Skill = how difficult it is to execute/do something

barren oracle
#

you gotta learn how to play bleed, What to fight, how to use ability's, how to consistently use pounce, when to run, where to rest all of those tings

golden coral
#

Nothing more or less

alpine plover
#

If the margin of error is straight up instant death
That's clear cut measurement in my eyes

golden coral
#

But margin of error does not relate to skill

alpine plover
#

Especially an ability that requires repetition on that ability that can kill you

golden coral
#

That's punishment for failure

alpine plover
golden coral
#

That does not relate to how easy or hard it is to fail

alpine plover
#

Sniping is much different from spraying and auto in an fps

golden coral
# alpine plover It does

You think so, I do not. And I measure skill on how hard something is to do, irrespective of the punishment for failure

barren oracle
alpine plover
#

Hitting with the snipe gets you an instant kill, missing gets you killed from the player spraying

oak wind
#

Erik, you must know that your pfp is perturbating as it looks more like Thomas the train than a snake.

barren oracle
#

The reward is high but the punishment is worse

golden coral
#

You count punishment, I don't, because punishment does not change the difficulty of doing something

alpine plover
barren oracle
golden coral
alpine plover
#

That's irrefutable

barren oracle
#

it directly effects how difficult something is to play

golden coral
barren oracle
#

If i play COD and only use sniper, being a new player would be a fucking hellscape

golden coral
#

Like I said, skill = how difficult it is to do something. Irrespective of anything else.

barren oracle
alpine plover
#

If to say, missing a Carno charge suddenly got it instantly killed, then yeah, it might be easy to catch dumb immobile players, but players accounting for your charge start dodging, then now it's a dynamic risky ability

golden coral
#

That's how I measure, because that's the only way to measure. You can change the punishment for failure after all.

#

So if you changed so the pounce no longer has a punishment on miss, it's suddenly harder to land it?

#

Or easier to land it?

barren oracle
#

Carno charge has little punishment making it easy to use

golden coral
#

If you gave utah health to survive a stego hit, it's now easier to land a pounce?

#

Harder to land it?

#

See my point now?

barren oracle
#

Same with deino lunge, It has little punishment

golden coral
#

Punishment has nothing to do with how easy it is to do something

barren oracle
#

Are you ok up there?

alpine plover
#

Depends on the Playabled, it's hard to hit a player running away,
Or a speeding Carno mid fight
For the smooth brain Carno just spinning in circles, then yeah. It's easy

golden coral
#

I'm perfectly fine yes

#

But if you can't answer obvious questions, well then maybe you need to consider how you're wrong :p

barren oracle
golden coral
#

@alpine ploverJust answer the questions/examples I gave. Does the difficulty of landing a pounce change depending on if you get stunned for a miss, or if you can take a hit or not?

golden coral
barren oracle
golden coral
#

Punishment has nothing to do with how easy it is to do something

barren oracle
#

If you miss then You dont die and can try again later

golden coral
#

So?

#

Im asking how difficult it is to land it

barren oracle
#

Whereas when you instantly die you dont get a chance to try again and get better

golden coral
#

As in, how much skill it takes to use the action

barren oracle
#

That makes it far harder

barren oracle
golden coral
#

So you're saying the difficulty of using an action depends on the punishment then. Not how the action works

golden coral
alpine plover
barren oracle
alpine plover
#

It's not "something takes skill because of this one and only factor"
That's a wrong approach

golden coral
golden coral
alpine plover
#

And your example is faulty anyways

golden coral
alpine plover
#

Pounce delay and the short range pounce does make it unpredictably hard to land

barren oracle
alpine plover
#

If it's easy to you, congratulations

barren oracle
#

Being a new Isle player is a hellscape

golden coral
golden coral
alpine plover
#

If you have it figured out and it's now easy, then wouldn't you say you're now skilled?

#

Since comparatively the average player still has difficulty

golden coral
alpine plover
#

And you can't chalk it up to the "average isle player dumb"

barren oracle
#

each Dino is unique and you gotta learn them all of them, But some are easier to learn therefore Less Difficult, Those that are harder to learn but have little punishment are of medium difficulty. Those that are medium or hard to learn and have high punishment are of Hard difficulty

golden coral
#

I guess I can live with that ^^

alpine plover
#

Carno and Utah are just not on the same skillgap
For one reason
Margin of error

golden coral
#

You keep thinking that

barren oracle
golden coral
#

But you're counting things that aren't relevant

barren oracle
#

They are stupidly relevent

#

there is no sandbox

alpine plover
#

That inherently makes Utah more difficult to perform, and optimally at that level, and requires teamwork and coordination to perform just as powerful as a Carno does

barren oracle
#

There isnt an easy way to say, Oh hey i can test out how this works without losing 2 hours of my time

#

The margin of error makes utah the hardest Dino by far

golden coral
barren oracle
golden coral
#

I'll grant you lack of sandbox is a problem, but thats an entirely different issue :p

barren oracle
#

Skill isnt raw

alpine plover
#

Stam management also comparatively makes Teno more skilled to use, and wasting it removes it's option to escape

golden coral
#

You're adding a bunch of stuff into this to call it skill

alpine plover
#

YEAH

#

Because Skill is variable

golden coral
#

Which I do not because that's not how it works

barren oracle
#

BRUH

barren oracle
alpine plover
#

It's not just one factor

golden coral
#

You're taking a bunch of things into account while I only measure the action itself

alpine plover
#

Of course

#

It's not just one mode

barren oracle
#

Its not just OHOHOHO you hit pounce ok that means you got skill breeeeeeeeee

golden coral
alpine plover
#

What..

barren oracle
#

What happens after you hit the pounce huh?

golden coral
#

You pull in other irrelevant factors to claim something when the only measure is the difficulty of executing the action itself

barren oracle
#

what happens when you gotta do it again>?

golden coral
#

That's the only thing I will measure, and while you're free to add stuff onto it, I'm not going to count those things because they don't change the difficulty of executing the action itself

alpine plover
#

Skill is just a collective of different thinking capabilities such as quick thinking, timing, patience, planning, and reaction , etc

barren oracle
#

Or maintain the SEPERATE MECHANIC that requires you TO BE AWARE AND KNOWLEDGEFUL of it

alpine plover
#

It's not only just sniping good

golden coral
#

Most of what you mentioned there are separate things

alpine plover
#

Then the argument is moot

barren oracle
golden coral
#

Not that the rest of playing demands any more but :p

barren oracle
alpine plover
#

And no, it's not at all separate, skill is a collage of these capabilities cohesively performing together at once

golden coral
barren oracle
#

You cant just master landing a hit with a pounce and then GG EZ Won game NO RE

golden coral
#

No wonder people claim skill this and that when they just mix it all together :p

alpine plover
#

It's supposed to be

barren oracle
golden coral
#

But skill is one specific thing to me, nothing more or less

alpine plover
#

Utah dodging and weaving against Carno's takes a modicum of timing, and moving through dense jungles all together takes skill

barren oracle
#

What now?

alpine plover
#

Not just combat specific

golden coral
barren oracle
#

Do you sit there on the creature?

golden coral
#

Since apparently I'm just that good at the game ^^

alpine plover
#

2-3 Carnos?

barren oracle
#

Do you get off

#

Do you get off and continue chase

#

do you get off and get more stam to do it again

golden coral
#

You'd get off the pounce before you get bucked/knocked off? :p

barren oracle
#

do you try and maintain bleed

golden coral
#

Beyond that, you're asking for a decision

#

Which depends on the circumstances

#

But that's making a smart decision

alpine plover
#

Decison making is skill as well

golden coral
#

Something I don't consider skill

#

That's smarts, not the same as skill

alpine plover
#

Based on experience and snap judgement of circumstance

golden coral
#

Again, you're classifying a whole bunch as skill

#

I only count the given action

barren oracle
#

A smart decision requires knowledge you gotta learn making it more difficult making you more skillful if you know what your doing??

alpine plover
#

Because it does validly classify

golden coral
#

I can know everything

#

Still fail at doing something

alpine plover
#

Depends on the something

barren oracle
#

Exactly HENCE WHY margin of ERROR effects skill

golden coral
#

I can know how to conduct the hunt properly, but lack the actual skill to do it

golden coral
barren oracle
#

You can sit and watch 1000 videos on how to play UTAH

alpine plover
#

Margin of error is literally missing with the sniper means death

#

That's the failure aspect

barren oracle
#

But fail a hunt and die

#

Because you dont have the experiance

golden coral
#

Rather, don't have the skill. But again, what does that have to do with margin of error or how difficult it is to do the thing?

barren oracle
#

And you cant get experience and skill If you die every time

barren oracle
golden coral
#

You can, because you do get experience for every attempt, as well as skill, as in you finetune until it works

barren oracle
#

sitting in a bush with a rex on legacy takes no skill.

alpine plover
#

Because even if you mess up with how difficult it is to do the thing
It's the worst case scenario, death
Carno's charge doesn't even come close to that consequence

barren oracle
#

Using an LMG on a shooter game while holding an angle takes no skill

alpine plover
#

There's a clear gap in punishment between the two

golden coral
barren oracle
#

Plus the topic itself here isnt just skill

alpine plover
#

It totally does

golden coral
barren oracle
#

Were talking about difficulty levels of different things

alpine plover
#

There is now inherent danger that comes with that action

barren oracle
golden coral
barren oracle
golden coral
alpine plover
golden coral
#

But that doesn't change the demand for the action to be done successfully?

barren oracle
#

Put it in real life. If your fast and there is a car on the road coming at you do you run?

alpine plover
#

It changes the stakes

barren oracle
#

Theres a chance you make it

golden coral
#

I'm not asking for the stakes

barren oracle
#

But do you?

alpine plover
#

Okay

golden coral
#

Im asking for the demands of the action

barren oracle
#

Your fast?

alpine plover
#

Wtf is so easy to land pounces on

#

Stego?
It doesn't bring it down, and it's tanky enough to absorb it anyways

golden coral
#

Seriously. All I'm asking is, how does margin of error/punishment/reward change the difficulty of the action itself and the success/failure of it.

#

?

barren oracle
#

If your fast and there is a car on the road Do you cross? do you run?

alpine plover
#

Sure as hell it aint easy to land sprinting Carno's at top speed

golden coral
#

So give me a proper example of how it actually changes it, so I can understand you better then

#

Since you insist that it does

alpine plover
#

Okay, so landing a pounce on a sprinting Carno mid combat

#

Miss the closing of timing, you die

barren oracle
#

If you mastered landing on your legs from high drops but each time you break your legs do you do it?

unborn iris
#

The skill comes in avoiding getting one shot by the whole roster. 😎

alpine plover
#

Due to the speed of the creature, the window is much smaller comparatively to anything else, and you're now liable to being nearly instantly killed for missing

barren oracle
#

If you need to Its not like its easy

#

You get punished for doing what you need to do

golden coral
barren oracle
#

and if you mess up you die forever

#

You gotta make decisions

unborn iris
#

I take that back, the not getting one shot by the whole roster while trying to kill said roster. Pretty easy to survive as a utah if that's you're only goal.

golden coral
#

@alpine ploverSo far I'm with you. Now take that example, nerf carno damage to 10, and tell me how it's now easier/less difficult to land the pounce in the same circumstances.

#

Because that's what I'm asking

barren oracle
golden coral
#

You've changed the punishment here for failing, the carno can no longer do much damage

barren oracle
#

If you die you lose

golden coral
#

Everything else is the same

#

Do you now land the pounce easier on the carno?

#

Given the same situation

#

Yes or no?

barren oracle
#

The goal is surviving not landing a 5 seconds pounce you moron

#

You want food and a good diet

#

to do that you attack

#

But you gotta learn how to bleed to do that

golden coral
barren oracle
#

and how to pounce

alpine plover
barren oracle
#

and how to regen stam and making good decisions

barren oracle
#

Do it

#

on your own

alpine plover
#

Try pounce a sprinting Dryo or it bobbing and weaving, there's difficulty in timing or performing the action to pin

golden coral
#

... Am I this unclear in what I'm asking or are you trolling me now? ^^

barren oracle
#

explain in your terms how much skill it takes

golden coral
dusky surge
#

i still dont think utahs should be killing carnos lmao

golden coral
#

Random Wave :p

barren oracle
alpine plover
golden coral
golden coral
alpine plover
#

But that doesn't mean that avoiding margin or error is not correlated with skill

barren oracle
#

Is it just land a pounce and you win?

#

cause then yeah its easy 0 skill

#

not at all easier with a steg

golden coral
#

@alpine ploverDo you see now? I measure only the action. I understand that you count extra things, but to me they don't matter because the action is what I measure. And to me, utah pounce, utah evasion, and so on, never were difficult in the first place to successfully do.

barren oracle
#

which takes 1 hit to kill it

alpine plover
#

Margin of error is punishment, having players adjust around or die to punishment is skill

#

You just don't measure those other factors as you admit

golden coral
alpine plover
#

But any designer would disagree with your stance

#

So again, this argument is moot

barren oracle
#

you dont have infinite stam

#

you are on your own here

golden coral
barren oracle
#

they are gonna buck you every time

alpine plover
#

You see the driving wheel and pedal
I see the timing and snap judgments between drifts turns, and speed adjustment based on knowledge

barren oracle
#

What do you do if they cross a river and wait on the other side to insta kill you

golden coral
#

And since skill to me refers only to the action, since I don't think being smart, or patient, or any of those are skill related, then my point still stands

alpine plover
#

Those are skill related

barren oracle
alpine plover
#

Because they classify as skills

golden coral
#

Me being patient to sit in a bush for 60 min to wait for the prey to sit down so I can ambush is not skill

#

That's just me having patience

golden coral
barren oracle
alpine plover
#

Skill is a loose general term, for having several capabilities unison at once

alpine plover
barren oracle
#

If you didnt know how strong you were are you gonna run in there and pounce?

#

yes!

alpine plover
#

It's acquired through time and knowledge

golden coral
#

That's a very strange way to use the term skill, that's all I can say

barren oracle
#

Smh

alpine plover
#

Just like repetitive action to know how to snipe accurately

#

Those are all apart of skill

barren oracle
#

Does it take skill to hit a quick scope with a sniper?

golden coral
barren oracle
golden coral
#

But yeah, you're counting a whole bunch of things I don't count as skill so yeah, no wonder we're getting nowhere :p

alpine plover
#

It does if it's mechanically difficult but requires little room for margin of error, and accuracy

golden coral
#

Not that I think any of those are very demanding either in the game so :p

barren oracle
alpine plover
#

And those bunch of things are called factors under the blanket of skill

unborn iris
#

ull Definition of skill (Entry 1 of 2)
1a: the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance
b: dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks

golden coral
barren oracle
alpine plover
barren oracle
#

read that

alpine plover
#

1a:

barren oracle
#

You are not using B

alpine plover
#

Oklay

#

Timber

#

This argument is a lost cause

unborn iris
#

You disagree with the literal definition of the word. 🤣

barren oracle
#

You are using The condition of land pounce = win

alpine plover
#

He disagrees with the definition

barren oracle
#

It was a lost cause for a while

alpine plover
#

Just drop it

#

No point discussing anymore

#

That ends it right there instantly

barren oracle
#

Yes.

unborn iris
#

Essential Meaning of definition
1: an explanation of the meaning of a word, phrase, etc. : a statement that defines a word, phrase, etc.

sinful cove
#

Holy shit this guy doesnt eant to fix pounce he wants to make it disgusting busted

#

Turn it in to the other kind of broken

slim dragon
#

Update 1 Pounce

#

When utahs had chainsaws instead of foot claws

sinful cove
#

Just give utahraptor a gun

slim dragon
#

Hypsi is nothing but a baby utahraptor with a gun if you think about it

sinful cove
#

Hypsi is an obnoxious kid with a squirt gun

edgy root
#

lolol true

#

I had one fire at me, miss, and i picked his feather duster self up

sinful cove
#

Is Frosty a troll? They keep making the worst suggestions lately lmao

#

Plus teno isnt even a hadrosaur

#

@peak pumice you're trolling right?

stuck void
#

Tentos are fine where they are imo. Would have to see more when the pounce of Utah is more consistent. But tento v carno if the carno can’t land a ram it’s a very tough fight for the carno. The tail stunning the carno can pretty much guarantee the tento will hit you 2 if not 3 times if it’s quick enough. With the diet system tentos are more likely to be buffed up consistently from how easy it is to locate food rn which makes stam managing more bearable. I play a lot of tento because I enjoy the combat with it right now to the point that I actively attempt to fight adolescent deinos. Although it mostly down to just use tail but timing it properly and watching a Utah turn into a caketah is very satisfying.

sinful cove
#

tenonto and utah in qa are both dogwater

#

have you even touched qa? its basically the opposite of what you just said

#

carnos are dominating

#

they clap utah packs solo and clap tenontos too

alpine plover
hollow canyon
#

^ I think pounce should be changed back to be predominantly a damage dealing tool with the damage ramping up the longer Utah remains latched onto its prey.

#

As for Tenonto - needs buffs, stamina cost, damage, potentially fractures on some of its attacks.

#

I'd also think about buffing Tenonto's trotting/walking/standing stamina regeneration so that it has a better chance to use more attacks during a longer fight.

alpine plover
#

@peak pumice skill issue

dusky surge
#

frosty might actually be fucking insane

sinful cove
#

literally every feedback they have posted is a bad take

dusky surge
#

every post he makes in that channel is about nerfing herbi

sinful cove
#

every post in his feedback is "i main carni but i suck cheeks at PvP so nerf every herbi"

#

"turn troodon in to sinornithosaurus so it's literally just venomous herrera so i can kill herbis in the woods easier"
"nerf stego because i tried to attack its ass and died"
"nerf tenonto because i, a utah, should facetank everything even if it is bigger than me"

dusky surge
#

also the fact that he calls teno "fast af" despite being the second slowest herbi in the game amuses me greatly lmao

sinful cove
#

he calls teno a hadrosaur and says its fast af when its slower than every land predator

#

i sincerely hope he's a troll

dusky surge
#

true, but honestly, he seems like the kind of person to complain when mercs come out that they don't have enough ammo and guns for slaughtering a herd of stegos

#

like death should just be a given

sinful cove
#

"I, a merc, got oneshot by a MAIASAURA, an HERBIVORE!!! an HERBIVORE should not be killing it should EAT GRASS nerf it now"

dusky surge
#

God I cannot believe these are real posts people make

sinful cove
#

worst part is the devs seem to listen, looking at what became of tenonto in QA

dusky surge
#

id say they tried to design around fractures

#

that clearly didnt work

#

so now we have a teno that sucks on every front

#

they did a similar thing with carno, nerfing the charge damage and giving it fracture

#

except the amount of fracture damage carno got was far greater

versed rune
#

I mean im gonna be honest, the fact that this post recieved any attention at all is a win for insanity.

#

The post immediately fell apart when it was said that a sub teno 1 shot a sub utah with a bite

#

teno's bite is so pitiful that an adult cant even do that.

wise sparrow
#

My dude watched a raptor 1v1 a trike in JWE and thought that herbis were all walking food carts.

#

"B-but in the movies the carnivores wins TI_TenontoCry "

versed rune
# hollow canyon I'd also think about buffing Tenonto's trotting/walking/standing stamina regener...

the quick stam regen was what made teno unnecessarily OP and oppressive in update 3. i agree with damage buffs for bite/claw/tail and slightly lowering the stam cost of the kicks but we also gotta remember that the root issue was its stam regen and therefore its ability to run down carno and utah. teno's stam regen right now isnt THAT bad assuming you dont whiff all of your attacks and play defense.

hollow canyon
#

It wasn't the stam regen, it was the runtime. Tenonto could simply wait for a moment when Carno had less than full stamina and run it down forcing it to use up all the stamina. It didn't rely on stamina regen at all and as a matter of fact I'm pretty sure the stamina regen has been left unchanged on Tenonto for quite some time now.

#

And naturally I'm not suggesting that it should get all those buffs at once.

#

The more you buff it in one department the less it should get buffed elsewhere.

#

E.g. buffing the stamina cost to allow it to use the tailslam 20 times shouldn't go along with increasing the stamina regeneration.

versed rune
#

as for the stam regen im thinking back to the initial launch of update 3 before the cursed hotfix where they nerfed everythings damage, which was also the patch where they nerfed teno's stam regen

unborn iris
#

They nerfed everything's trotting and idle stam regen.

versed rune
hollow canyon
#

Oh yea, everything's runtime got lowered their iirc

versed rune
#

except stego

hollow canyon
#

Tenonto specifically had its trotting stamina regen nerfed

hollow canyon
unborn iris
#

Utah got hit pretty hard too.

hollow canyon
#

Forgot about Stego

unborn iris
#

You use to be able to just trot around to regain stamina in a fight. Now you pretty much have to find somewhere to rest.

versed rune
#

i mean tbh stego's stam is fine that thing is not fun to play. its just other shit that makes stego way too strong

hollow canyon
#

Then again - it doesn't need to have specifically the trotting stamina regen buffed, that's why I said trotting/walking/standing

#

All those have different regeneration rates for every animal

versed rune
#

trotting regen is the same as walking/standing isnt it?

hollow canyon
#

No

#

they are all different

versed rune
#

for real???

#

since when??

hollow canyon
#

I can assure you of that

#

Yea I tested it on Utah in update 3.5

#

It took 270 seconds to regenerate the stamina trotting, ~170 walking and only around 110 standing

versed rune
#

well the difference is so miniscule it may as well not even exist lol

#

wait

#

nevermind then

#

i never noticed it

hollow canyon
#

Not sure if those values are completely correct but it was something around that

#

I tested it in ~early August I think

#

so things may have changed since then

versed rune
#

interesting

hollow canyon
#

when the updates come out I will test all this stuff for every creature

unborn iris
#

And those rates went down for about everything in 3.75.

#

To make stamina management more of a thing.

#

Which seems like a good idea.

hollow canyon
#

Actually - only Tenonto got its stamina regen rate nerfed

#

the rest only had their runtimes lowered

unborn iris
#

Nah, utah 100% had it lowered.

hollow canyon
#

I'm looking at the patch notes right now

#

"Movement speeds
Sprint speed reduced.

Stamina decay rates
Sprinting decay rate increased."

#

There's no mention of Utah getting any stamina regen nerfed

versed rune
#

but yeah, i think tenos stam is fine as is currently, but the damage, my god. its horrendous. its damage before was too much since it could stunlock a carno and kill it with only one stun. But my god, the other day i was playing tenonto on mechanic test and a carno ran right up my butt. tail slammed it 6-7 times and it did not die. I died in a facetank cause i ran out of stam cuz i landed all direct hits.

hollow canyon
#

It only lost stamina faster while running and its speed has been reduced

#

You need 7 bodyshots and 2 bites/1 clawswipe/kick to kill a Carno

#

or 8 bodyshots

versed rune
#

the carno shouldve been dead as a doornail for letting me punish it so easily yet it won lmfao

hollow canyon
#

7 leave it something like 50hp shy off dying

versed rune
#

and this is why weight=health is a bad thing

#

because it FORCED teno's bite and claw to get nerfed so it didnt kill utah in 2 hits

unborn iris
#

Utah definitely doesn't have the same trotting stam regen it did in 3.5.

versed rune
#

so now that ruined its matchup against carno.

unborn iris
#

But you're right, I don't see anything about it.

hollow canyon
#

To be fair - Utah got nerfed more than its irl weight would suggest

#

Teno's bite got nerfed?

#

Oh wait it's like 25N now isn't it?

versed rune
#

what did teno's bite do in update 3???

#

wasnt it 50?

#

or was it 100

hollow canyon
#

I think it was... 110N?

#

Yea you're right it got nerfed

versed rune
#

no stego was 110 and so was utah

hollow canyon
#

Utah was 130N and so was Stego

versed rune
#

i think teno was a bit less but it scaled properly

#

wait it mightve been 110 for teno then idk

#

my point is

#

the bite and claw are LITERALLY useless because of weight=health

#

terrible design choice

hollow canyon
#

I mean you wouldn't be biting a Carno regardless so Idk how that means anything

versed rune
#

the bite and claw of teno are tools to stack damage aside from your main attacks, kick and tail

unborn iris
#

Claw is far from useless.

hollow canyon
#

I don't think I've ever gotten bitten by a Tenonto as a Carno

versed rune
#

punishing smaller mistakes made by your attacker

unborn iris
#

Claw in 3.75 still 4 shots utahs.

hollow canyon
#

I don't remember ever biting a Carno either - actually perhaps I did that once or twice to show it who's the boss

#

But yea I don't think Tenonto's bite is an attack that should be utilised against Carno at all

versed rune
hollow canyon
#

Tenonto didn't get its damage nerfed until the release of the mechanic test

versed rune
#

which mind you, the claw shouldnt do a CRAZY amount to a carno

#

but right now it does barely anything

hollow canyon
#

on 3.75 it still dealt as much as it did on 3.5

versed rune
#

yeah they never nerfed it in mechanic test

#

they nerfed it in 3.5

#

when i talk about damage nerfs, im almost exclusively referring to 3.5

#

i dont think there have been any since 3.5

hollow canyon
#

Just to clarify something - "3.5" was the update that was released at the end of May

#

that's the update that introduced the new interactive water

#

"3.75" is the update that lowered the weights and hp pools of Carno, Teno, Hypsi, Utah and Dryo

versed rune
#

ok then. i meant 3.75.

#

its hard keeping track

hollow canyon
#

those terms are used by the community for simplicity's sake, the real name of that update was:

unborn iris
#

3.75 was teno bite nerf.

hollow canyon
#

"EVRIMA Patch 0.7.111.31"

versed rune
#

3.75 is what put the game in the current balance nightmare its in. NOT 3.5. I made a mistake.

#

but nobody talks about 3.75 enough and how it absolutely screwed everything up

wise sparrow
#

please forgive my friend midkight

hollow canyon
#

Nobody talks about 3.75 because that's the update that also introduced the logout bug

wise sparrow
#

hes just shitposting

hollow canyon
#

therefore - everbody stopped playing the game shortly after that patch came out

fallow scroll
#

syrus you dumbass

#

im not shitposting

hollow canyon
#

I honestly have so little time on that patch that I'm not quite sure which change was done there since I gave up on Evrima after getting two Utahs to full adult and losing them to the logout bug.

#

At any rate - it's pretty clear what has to be done about Tenonto

versed rune
#

Everyone's like "why is everything unbalanced???" but nobody thinks to remember update 3 and 3.5, when the game was actually semi balanced, and then look back to 3.75, where everything went wrong. Because again, thats when weight=health became a thing.

hollow canyon
#

It wasn't balanced that well

versed rune
#

better than it is now.

wise sparrow
versed rune
#

hence why i said "semi" balanced

hollow canyon
#

Utah having the overblown hp pool of 1k was leading to a tonne of issues - Carno had an absurd biteforce of 350N at the time and Tenonto dealt a tonne of damage too just to be able to take out a Utah at all

#

Utah had half the HP of a Carno which is 4 times its size

versed rune
#

it sounds stupid but yet it still functioned properly

hollow canyon
#

a quarter of Stego's hp which is an animal that's a colossus in comparison

#

It functioned properly among smalls, it was hurting the large animals a tonne though

#

and it would be getting only worse as time went on

versed rune
#

utah still got 1 shot by stego. carno 3 shot utah, same as it does now. a tail slam from a teno meant utah still died to it

hollow canyon
#

Stego was probably the biggest loser there

versed rune
#

the values are huge compared to LEGACY

#

but evrima functioned differently