balance-feedback-discussion

[golden coral]

Also, they mention what, 30 lions, vs that one elephant? So sure, if you wanna come in 20 man band of utahs I guess we can consider it.

[slim dragon]

And you can't in evrima ?

[vocal minnow]

yeah but everyone says utahs have to play in groups so there is a reason for it

[obtuse ocean]

Not that i have seen yet, i saw it alot in legacy tho

[vocal minnow]

i also have clips where i won 2vs1 as utah against tenos and now you cant even beat a bot who started to play this game

i dont see any balance here

[golden coral]

You mentioned the counter was to go in groups to survive, that's a difference. In any case, I don't belive a pin mechanic should lack counter. I was never a fan of it in utah vs utah, barely even utah vs dryo, because just "lying there" and waiting to die is not very fun.

[slim dragon]

Then watch #videos-and-streams I guess
I've seen a teno solo 3 carnos, a utah solo a stego, and a stego solo an entire pack of utahs
I myself once beaten a carno into retreat as a utah and forced a deino to flee aas a ptera

[golden coral]

If we get bucking that can counter pinning as well as pouncing, it might work out however. That would make it somewhat interesting, and the idea of letting a pack be able to slow down or otherwise hinder the prey isn't bad itself I don't think.

[vocal minnow]

but its like this what do you want to do if you are pinned cant do much and its in reallife aswell

[golden coral]

Hopefully if the trees/rocks thing is looked at, bucking can be looked at too. Make it a proper loop, no animation locks, and maybe useful for pin too. And speaking of animation locks, why do stego still have such a noticable eating anim lock?!

[slim dragon]

Reminds me of something I thought of for a suggestion, what about making bucking automatic ? If you're not attacking (and not moving if your dino can't move while bucking) you automatically start bucking. Also could be seamlessly implemented into the pinning mechanic by making it costing way more stam than pouncing on something that doesn't buck currently.

[vocal minnow]

cant even use pounce

everyone bucks

[slim dragon]

Cause you automatically struggle when you're pinned down

[obtuse ocean]

Ofcourse, even i soloed a bad stego as utah. Even tho im bad aswell. But 95% of the fights i see in evrima is won beacuse they are more. Might change later with more dinos getting added.

[vocal minnow]

but that makes sense that you win when you are more

[golden coral]

You can. You just need to pounce over a few waves. Don't expect the first 2-3 waves to do much, but drain stamina and start inflicting bleed. Just keep it up, it's a long term thing these days.

[slim dragon]

Well bucking is such a simple thing to do, everyone should do it no matter what. Seeing a dino being pounced and just stand around without reacting is really jarring

[vocal minnow]

yep

[vocal minnow]

wait

[slim dragon]

There should be no skill involved for just reacting to something actively tearing through your flesh

[vocal minnow]

very skillfu lto hold E

[obtuse ocean]

True, but it depdends on what you play. If your an allo, you should be able to defend yourself again 4 utahs if you have skill. And not just, hey we are more lets kill it

[slim dragon]

Yes, there is already not much skill involved, that's why I thought about suggesting to make it fully automatic.

[golden coral]

Oh I would love it if bucking/pouncing/grabbing was more than just hold x or y button. But here we are. You can still pounce, just do it in waves, was my point.

[vocal minnow]

Adding onto @tame rivet feedback, @Xenon #GigaPriest #TroodonGang and I have done some tests to see how effective the Utah pounce really is.

Pounce times

A "full" pounce, which is where the opponent doesn't buck, and lasts until you have nearly run out of stamina, lasts 20 seconds

A "normal" pounce, which is where the opponent would buck a couple seconds after the pounce has landed (realistically they never buck instantly), until stam nearly runs out lasts 8 seconds

The time taken to rest from 0 to full stamina takes 1 minute 24 seconds

Pounce bleed values

vs Stego:

The blood loss after one second of pounce is 0.625%

This means that after a normal pounce the stego loses 5% of it's blood, and after a full pounce it loses 12.5% of it's blood.

This concludes that vs a stego it takes 20 normal pounces or 8 full pounces to fully bleed it out.

It would take 44 minutes of normal pounces + rest to fully bleed

It would take 19 minutes of full pounces + rest to fully bleed

vs Teno + Carno:

The reason these are grouped is because they lose the exact same amount of blood per one second of pounce, which is quite interesting.

The blood lost after 1 second of pounce is 2.2%

After a normal pounce they lose 17.6% of blood, and after a full pounce they lose 44% of blood.

This concludes that vs a teno or a carno it takes 6 normal pounces or 3 full pounces to bleed them out.

It would take 13 minutes of normal pounces + rest to fully bleed

It would take 7 minutes of full pounces + rest to fully bleed

Conclusion

From this, imo the blood lost by the pounce is fair and balanced. But as marble said prior the stam loss needs to be changed, and as more blood is lost there should be some effects. Needing to rest the full 1m24 per pounce is too much.

[slim dragon]

Or maybe change buck into spam-jump ? Feels more intuitive to do than hold the interact button, and could change effectiveness with how fast you press jump (or if you follow a precise timing)

[vocal minnow]

and more than half of the group dies

ok lets fight a stego for 44 min

[hollow canyon]

I'm completely lost at that last balance-feedback... what is it trying to say? For some reason it uses an example of a male African elephant weighing 6.6t while showing a video of a lion pride(...of 40 lions) hunting a herd of female elephants that weigh probably half that.

[golden coral]

I want some form of attack vs cling in relation to bucking. Like when you just hold on, bucking is very cost ineffective, but you're obviously not doing any damage. When you attack, you can get bucked off very easily, but you're doing damage. The idea is to try and trick the prey into bucking while you're clinging, vs attacking before it can start bucking again, basically going back and forth. Or somehing... I don't really know, but I would like some sort of interaction there in some way.

[vocal minnow]

40 ahhahaha

[golden coral]

It said 30, but it's still a decent number I'd say

:p

[hollow canyon]

The narrator literally says that the pride has 40 lions in it

[slim dragon]

Like in Monster Hunter ?

[golden coral]

Never played, so wouldn't know. I'm just thinking it should be some sort of back and forth. More like Saurian I guess, the RPR there. You alternate between balancing and attacking. And the prey has to alternate too, so you're trying to outmanuever each other, sort of.

[hollow canyon]

Pardon me - 30 of them, not 40

The point stands

[golden coral]

Yes. It's a large animal, and even with a full pack, it should take a decent amount of time. 15-25 min seems reasonable to me at the least. And while I don't believe there should be given losses, I do think you should expect to lose people, it is a dangerous hunt. Do you imagine hunting a rex would be any safer? :p

[karmic delta]

Utah is a pack animal that should be using tactics and strategy to win fights and hunt larger animals. It shouldnt get a free win simply by outnumbering something

[hollow canyon]

^

[slim dragon]

Basically in Monster Hunter whenever you get on a monster's back, you have to stab it repeatedly until it falls to the ground. When it attacks or occasionnaly bucks, you have to hold on, otherwise your stamina empties extremely quickly and you fall down.

[hollow canyon]

In my experience you take down a Stego after a hunt that typically lasts ~20 minutes

[golden coral]

At some point numbers do take precedence, but that should be rare I'd say. Sure, you might run into a group that's feasting on a brachi carcass and at that point, you might just get overwhelmed but.

[hollow canyon]

Normally there are some 3-4 Utahs that die

[golden coral]

Yeah, sounds good to me. Probs not the best solution, but I'd like to see some sort of interaction like that.

[vocal minnow]

yeah

[hollow canyon]

I've never seen a Stego hunt take 40+ minutes? How do you arrive at that number?

[karmic delta]

utah shouldnt win against an animal that is 2 tiers larger than it simply by having more numbers than it and pouncing. Utah is a small game hunter that uses pack strategy and tactics to hunt things larger than it.

[vocal minnow]

you need like 60-80 bites depends on where you bite

try this without dying in a group

i mean you still want live after a hunt

[karmic delta]

thats the point. ITS DANGEROUS

[hollow canyon]

You're not going to be killing apexes without any losses, you're not meant to

[obtuse ocean]

60-80 bites ??

[hollow canyon]

You only land bites while the Stego is bucking, why would you bother with that as your main method of killing it in the first place?

[karmic delta]

hunt something more YOUR SIZE then. Utah isnt meant to be large tier apex killer . you're not blue from JP hunting the fucking indominus rex.

[vocal minnow]

try to pounce a stego he spamm rmb and you die mid pounce

[obtuse ocean]

damn, you can kill a rex in legacy with 12 bites with dilo. 60 bites would be insane

[vocal minnow]

cant even pounce because everyone is in a group so

[hollow canyon]

I've pounced Stegos on multiple occasions and didn't die mid-pounce but I wasn't the only person pouncing

[karmic delta]

then dont do THAT. find a strategy that works. like yknow. HOW PACK HUNTING ANIMALS WORK

[small pawn]

that being said Numbers is a strategy. if you completely overwhelm the prey the numbers should win just because your number.

[obtuse ocean]

you want cuddling up game win over skill ?

[vocal minnow]

i play utah since i bought this game try to find a good group of utahs

[karmic delta]

i would expect that at like yknow. 20 utahs. Not 4 utahs pouncing a stego

Deniz. read that

[hollow canyon]

Sure Stego can wait out your pounce and hit you mid-air if it knows that you're going to disengage if you're the only Utah pouncing it, that gets more complicated when there's multiple Utahs pouncing it at the same time.

I've played Utah since evrima came out

For most of the time Utah was completely broken and way too good

It is arguably a bit lacking atm

[vocal minnow]

you definitly never play utah

[hollow canyon]

I've played solely Utah until update 2 came out

And I've played it quite a bit afterwards too

[vocal minnow]

i know that the utah was to powerful before update but now its really like trash

[small pawn]

Its not a cuddling game. Utah's in this game are pack animals. They are supposed to cuddle. Carno's are not yet you get 2-5 carnos running together almost all the time on the servers i have been on.

[karmic delta]

you literally want utah to get a free kill on stego without any of them dying simply by having numbers

[vocal minnow]

try to hunt anything in a group

[vocal minnow]

if he stays in a group it wont happen

[small pawn]

No i always expect someone to die. Thats why you have numbers. those that die help the pack

[vocal minnow]

everyone plays in a group

[hollow canyon]

Stego shouldn't be in a group

[karmic delta]

so just force everyone to play in a group no matter what?

[vocal minnow]

shouldnt but everyone does it

[hollow canyon]

It should be at most allowed to have 2 Stegos in a group

Yes, because the game is still being developed

[vocal minnow]

i dont have to force it everyone does it

[karmic delta]

utah shouldnt be this force of reckoning that makes everyone huddle together in fear.

[hollow canyon]

Stegos are free to just stay in a single spot, chilling even in a group of 20

nothing is stopping them

That's going to change when updates come out

and they can't just AFK in a single spot grazing their way through life

[small pawn]

not 1 utah, but a pack of utahs yes. That goes with any pack animal. Your not dealing with just one of them your dealing with quite a few. You dont just wander into a den of wolves as a human with a gun and think your going to get out unharmed. not how it works

[karmic delta]

Need i remind that utah is a small game hunter

that uses pack based strategy to hunt things larger than itself.

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but if im giga. Those 12 carnos should be dead. And not go around killing whatever just cause they are more. Ofcourse cuddling up should have advantages, but not free kill.

[vocal minnow]

i mean lets wait for update 4 i think everything will change

[small pawn]

Agreed

[small pawn]

Its not always a free kill, when hunting in a pack. someone almost always dies if the prey is any good

but that is where the skill comes in. I have not seen a pack hunt go without losing at least 1-2 utahs

[golden coral]

You're not meant to bite things to death unless they're your own size or smaller as utah anymore.

[hollow canyon]

In general Utah is being moved into a group hunter/bleeder niche where it's supposed to attrition hunt larger animals by bleeding them out. Its hunts are going to be slow and methodical.

[golden coral]

Yes, and that's outright stupid.

[karmic delta]

wow almost like theyre supposed to use pack based strategy or something, right

[wide cosmos]

Yes, I don't get your logic. And the stupid "ThErE SHOULD bE HeAvY Loses If YoU AtTacK An Apex as A Pack Of Utahs"

[hollow canyon]

It's much easier to hit a smaller animal in the legacy than it is in Evrima

[karmic delta]

...yes...there should be heavy losses for attacking an apex tier that weighs multiple tonnes more than you

Utah packs shouldnt just be able to kill anything they want.

[wide cosmos]

Please elaborate on heavy loses. It's such a stupid argument

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, i agree. I would totally accept my death if i died to 5 utahs as an allo. But i took 2 down with me

[vocal minnow]

yeah it makes fun to die after almost every hunt

[hollow canyon]

Don't hunt the apexes in every hunt then?

[vocal minnow]

hunt what then?

[karmic delta]

if you have a group of utahs, fighting a fucking rex

You should suffer heavy losses. aka only like 3-1 utahs survive the fight

[small pawn]

Not necessarily, just because your heavier doesnt mean you should win. You have to think of Speed as well. how do you think lions take down water buffalo

[vocal minnow]

teno ? one kicks you

carno? spamm alt attack

[hollow canyon]

Teno is overtuned atm

[vocal minnow]

dyro ? never see one

[karmic delta]

by using strategy

[wide cosmos]

"Should" still no elaboration.

[golden coral]

Stegos should not come in groups anyway, no more than trike or rex or giga should. It's a large, weaponized animal with a rather bad disposition. If you need large herding herbis, there's the hadrosaurs, even shant can probably get away with a trio possibly.

[hollow canyon]

Carno is the direct Utah counter so it's hardly a good argument either. In normal circumstances Utahs should be going for things like a Maia or Para preferably, as in - the animals that are based on running away rather than murdering you in a hunt.

[karmic delta]

the fuck do you want me to say. a rexes mouth fits an entire fucking utah in it. one bite would kill a utah

[wide cosmos]

How do you make pack suffer heavy loses but be intentional big game pack hunter?

[karmic delta]

big game does not mean apexes

[small pawn]

but Stego is apex

[wide cosmos]

Exactly what it means

[golden coral]

I think the problem here is that we're forgetting half of the roster. You can be big game hunter, and not hunt apexes. Let's say you hunt things between 2-6T or so. Anything above is a bit too big.

[karmic delta]

Mid tiers such as Maia, Para, Styraco, and others that are being added are what "big game" a utah pack should be hunting

[golden coral]

And even then, there's also the kind of prey you're hunting to take into account.

[karmic delta]

Dondi literally disagrees with you but okay.

[small pawn]

but those are not in Envrima thats legacy

[karmic delta]

they are g o i n g to be in evrima

[golden coral]

@small pawnWe know, I'm giving examples of "large game" that isnt apexes

[small pawn]

Envrima we are very limited in what we hunt

[small pawn]

agreed,

[hollow canyon]

I personally think that Utah should also hunt Tenonto but Tenonto specifically right now is kind of... good, probably too good

[wide cosmos]

The whole argument on Utah packs should suffer heavy loses is just a nice way of saying Utah packs should not be able to take down stegos

[small pawn]

they will be in envrima when, next 2 years you cant count that as now

[karmic delta]

Yes.

[golden coral]

Just becaue people said "If you hunt apexes you will take losses" and then said "but you're supposed to hunt large game". So just clarifying that there are large game that isn't an apex.

[hollow canyon]

They can take down Stegos even now though.

[karmic delta]

because stegos are considered apex tier. utahs shouldnt be hunting apexes unless they want the majority of their pack to die

[wide cosmos]

And that's why it is stupid argument

[hollow canyon]

And this is with the bleed being bugged

[karmic delta]

read it

read. it.

[golden coral]

I mean, honestly, stego would be the worst prey option for a utah pack, with anky being the one even more difficult prey. Compared to shant or trike or para and so on.

[hollow canyon]

^

[vocal minnow]

havent see a single vid of it

[wide cosmos]

Jesus are you still quoting that out of context nonsense

[sonic flame]

For your average skill level Utah pack, it's likely that you'd lose many Utahs because when hunting something like a Stego, you're playing a one touch game

[karmic delta]

Read. it.

[sonic flame]

A highly skilled Utah pack can likely do it loss free, a bad or disorganized pack can all die without really accomplishing anything

[golden coral]

Proper prey lists and proper accounting for different "types" please and thank you!

Which does mean proper roster too!

[karmic delta]

Not everything has to kill everything
that includes utahs struggling to kill apexes. because theyre APEXES.

[wide cosmos]

I've seen it dosen times. And Ive seen dozens of people misinterpret it. You are one of them

[sonic flame]

Proper roster kinda a prerequisite there lol

[golden coral]

It is. I hope we're getting to that "we can add new dinos fast and easy" phase sooner rather than later!

[karmic delta]

so utah, a small tier, should be able to hunt rexes, giga, spino, trike, and stego without any issue or any deaths at all?

[sonic flame]

Well gotta get through nesting, which has the ability to be crazy complicated if the devs are willing

[hollow canyon]

I think someone may have been recording the hunt in the question. Not sure if the other Nova has the recording of one of the hunts but in general there were typically 3-4 Utahs dying per Stego and each hunt took roughly 20 minutes. It's also likely going to get easier with time when the Stegos can't use the shallow water to defend themselves from pouncing and when bleed gets fixed.

[wide cosmos]

If you want to oversimplfy it so much, sure

[golden coral]

@sonic flameI more so am hoping that when we have a proper roster, there's differences in the "types" of prey and how to approach them and all. I'm just not a fan of just "large game" "small game" and all that. I want to see choices in those "tiers" as well and so on!

[karmic delta]

so utahs in a pack should just kill the entire roster with ease?

[wide cosmos]

5-8 Utahs working together > 1 Apex

[sonic flame]

I know I'd personally want to rank them into like things you can solo, ideal pack prey, and the super large game that you only go for if you've got the skills

[karmic delta]

20 utahs working together = 1 apex

[vocal minnow]

try it and send me a clip of it try to find good players in chat or discord and then fight a stego who is good

[golden coral]

Does nesting include hypsi treehouses? :p

[dapper frost]

20 is a bit much, but 5 is also a bit low

[sonic flame]

Honestly 8 Utahs if they can duck and dive well could probably take an apex simply because the apex wouldn't be able to hit them back

[vocal minnow]

20 utahs last time i saw so many was before update 4 because no one plays utah anymore includes me

[karmic delta]

fine, make utah able to kill the entire roster simply because its in a group. obviously everyone would think thats just absolutely fine.

[wide cosmos]

Oh you are one of those people who just want to pick a dino and steamroller everyone because your are an "apex". Thats a dumb concept that plagued legacy.

[sonic flame]

If they're really stupid you'd need a shit ton more tho, because they'd literally be throwing themselves into death

[karmic delta]

i literally dont play apexes

[small pawn]

i still play utah its one of my favs but i dislike how hard it is to survive with so little ai.

[sonic flame]

Utah against anything larger than like, a Maia, is going to be one shot likely

[karmic delta]

I just think its fucking stupid for a small tier to hunt the APEX OF THE FUCKING ENVIRONMENT simply because theyre in a pack.

[sonic flame]

so as long as the Utah's don't get hit, they can threaten a lot of stuff, but they are allowed to make one mistake

the apex meanwhile is allowed to fuck up dozens of times

[golden coral]

7-8 preferably, maybe 6 if you're really good. And even then, yeah, one apex. If there's two, go find a solo one! :p

[small pawn]

@sonic flame well said

[wide cosmos]

Having coordinated pack is extremely hard. and takes alot of experience and multiple individuals vs one person

[vocal minnow]

you never see solo adult herbis

[sonic flame]

How do you propose a rex stops a pack of Utahs, any size, from killing it if the Utahs can't get hit due to their agility?

[vocal minnow]

they even mixpack

teno and stegos together nice

[karmic delta]

if the rex cant even actually hit the utahs due to them being so fast, that sounds like a skill issue on the rex, not a balance issue

[small pawn]

By using the environment to its advantage fight in a closer quarter area where they dont have as much room

[golden coral]

Even so, there has to be viable defenses. You can not, as a defender, rely on the opponent screwing up. It has to be the other way around, the attacker relies on the defender screwing up to secure the win.

[hollow canyon]

Each one of those individuals has invested insignificant amount of time into their animal compared to the apex player. It makes little to no sense either from the balance nor realism point of view for 7-8 Utahs to be steamrolling an apex.

[golden coral]

Otherwise we get evrimas version of assriding :p

[sonic flame]

So then how is Utah being able to kill apexes in a coordinated pack a balance issue then?

[small pawn]

nice one

[sonic flame]

If the apexes only die due to a lack of proper decision making on their part, that's not the Utah's fault

[karmic delta]

theres a difference between a utah pack having enough skill to be able to kill a rex

and any utah pack that forms having the ability to kill a rex simply because they formed a pack

[vocal minnow]

if they play it good yes

[karmic delta]

Skill isnt a balance issue. utah having the stats to form a pack capable of killing a rex by simply playing utah is a balance issue

[sonic flame]

Yeah, in the first one the Utahs know how to jump away and avoid being caught out with no stam, in the latter you can have as many Utahs as you want, they're all going to get one touched

[golden coral]

As long as the coordination does not negate the ability to defend, that's fine. But it should not be a case of "if the utahs just plays well enough", because then you can say "if the apex plays well enough". And then you get the question of which side win if both sides are just as good? :p

[wide cosmos]

We are talking about actuall Utah packs that work together not some random Utahs that 2 called eachother and are randomly wandering around

[sonic flame]

Bad Utahraptors aren't going to take into account their own stamina, positioning of their pack mates, current state of the prey, the lay of the land, or anything else, they're going to run in, right click, miss and get one shot

[small pawn]

but those are 2 different things. If a pack grows to say 15-20 utah they should kill the rex if they have the skill alot easier than a pack of say 8. Numbers doesnt always mean the pack wont suffer

[karmic delta]

then why is this being discussed in balance if the only difference is skill of players. thats not a balance issue thats a player being bad at the game

[golden coral]

Yeah, but in turn, getting a pack above 6-8 utahs should be immensely hard to sustain ,and having 10 or more should probably be impossible to keep at all. We don't want rex packs after all either xD

[obtuse ocean]

First time i played rex, i ran up to a pack of utahs Screaming. 10 min later i was playing sucho

[sonic flame]

The apex has a lot more going for it, massive hp and the ability to easy snipe a Utah even on a tail hit alone is massive

[hollow canyon]

If the counterplay for the apex is to hope that Utahs are so challenged to miss the pounce then that's not really a counterplay. It's literally relying on Utahs being completely oblivious. How does a Utah even miss a pounce on something the size of a bus?

[sonic flame]

They manage to miss on Stego as it is

[small pawn]

Well thats going to happen anyways because its a game and people are in control of the creature so non pack animals are going to pack.

[karmic delta]

if you play rex and lose a rex to a pack of utahs despite utahs being tuned to hunt midtiers in packs, that sounds like a bad fucking rex player.

[golden coral]

That's why you have food and other stuff as limiters. :p

[dawn falcon]

Rex kicking Utah’s mid pounce wen

[hollow canyon]

If they play the Utah for the first time then yea maybe

Other than that I don't see how a Utah would miss the pounce on a Stego

[wide cosmos]

A coordinated low tier pack hunter should definitely be able to take down a solo apex. It would be a different story of its a pair of apexes or a herd

[hollow canyon]

Unless it's that weird bug where they don't pounce at all while moving up hill

then that's a different matter and fair enough but that's more of an issue with the game than anything else

[sonic flame]

And besides, bucking as an apex would be devastating for Utahs, as it forces them to take shit tier damage against something that's already got over 10x their health, or they can run out of stam and die instantly

[karmic delta]

however, i think utah, as a balance considering its stats should be tuned to consistently hunt mid tiers as a pack, they shouldnt be tuned to hunting apexes on the regular.

[sonic flame]

in addition, every single time they run up to the apex to even try and pounce it, they run the risk of getting bodied

[golden coral]

True enough, but even so. You can't just have the defender, apex or no, relying on the attacker making mistakes. It has to be easier to defend than to attack, that's a given. It's for the attacker to find a target that screws up. Same with size/strength, same with speed, same with everything else. The one who sets the pace must always have the disadvantage since they can just go away and try something else and all that.

[sonic flame]

and that's not counting the possibility for some animals to have auto pounce counters like that video of the Trike auto impaling

[wide cosmos]

It should. That would discourage Apexes from being steamrolling tanks with no contest.

[karmic delta]

like lets say a pack of utahs just wandering around just forms. like 5 of them. They should be capable of hunting solo Midtiers as a regular food source. Theyre not coordinated or anything thats what utah should be intended to do

[sonic flame]

It is far easier to defend, buck is powerful, especially on larger animals, their attacks will melt a Utah that tries anything too risky, and the Utahs would need to play the extremely long game, more than enough time for any little variables to throw off their hunt

[golden coral]

Apexes contest other apexes, and midtiers, especially while growing up.

[karmic delta]

why does UTAH have to be the thing that stops apexes. Why not a group of like. 5 large mid tiers.

[obtuse ocean]

I would rather fight 1 solo rex then 1 solo allo as utah

[hollow canyon]

that wasn't really so much a "pounce counter" as it was a Utah literally impaling itself onto the horns though. Gameplay on the side of the Trike shouldn't be reliant on hoping Utah is dumb enough to jump onto its horns.

[karmic delta]

why not like a group of 3-5 allos being able to contest apexes

[wide cosmos]

It's just one option not only option

[small pawn]

As a pack of utah's they should hunt mid to apex because they need more food. But it also depends on how many do you consider a pack. 1-3 Utahs should not take an apex quickly and they should only attempt it if the apex is already hurt. But a pack of 4-8 Utahs should be hunting mid to apex because they need the amount of food.

[small pawn]

why cant they?

[sonic flame]

It wouldn't be, I'm just saying that atm you can pounce from basically any angle and snap to the right spot, but if some angles were just instant death, that means you have fewer spots to watch for, and the Utahs have to be more careful where they approach from

[obtuse ocean]

Dilos and troodons gonna be the apexes killers : )

[hollow canyon]

4 Utahs shouldn't be even thinking about coming close to an apex

[golden coral]

Bucking, while powerful, has it's issues as well I'd say. We're lacking a proper loop of it, as well as not sure on how easy it is to break off to catch an incoming utah and so on. But yes, point was mostly that defending should always be easier, and that it's for the attacker to find a target that screws up. You can't rely on the attcker screwing up. So if both rex and utah pack plays it perfectly, the utahs should not be able to do much, barring sheer overpower with numbers possibly and losing 99% of the pack or similar.

[wide cosmos]

I see it bybthe growth times 5 utahs = 5-6h growing = 1 apex growing

[hollow canyon]

Absolutely awful comparison

[karmic delta]

because...theyre like 3 tiers of size below them. I know size isnt everything when it comes to the game but you gotta admit that being mulitple tonnes heavier than another animal has its advantages

[golden coral]

It's not just bucking either, it's how to prevent the utahs from getting to you, and from getting away. And so on. And it's not just utahs for that matter. I'm talking interactions in general. @sonic flame

[dapper frost]

By this logic 5 pteras should be able to kill stegos

[sonic flame]

If a Utah pack is playing perfectly though, they wouldn't be losing any members, which means that eventually the rex, or any other animal would go down

[karmic delta]

5 utahs... = 1hr of growing...they all take 1 hr....

[small pawn]

4 utahs can take a wounded apex.

[wide cosmos]

It they were pack hunter as intended then sure

[small pawn]

i can agree to that

[dapper frost]

[karmic delta]

n....no

[sonic flame]

It's just a matter of making it so fucking hard to play perfectly by giving the defending animals strong enough counter options to make it far more likely that a Utah will fuck up

[karmic delta]

5 utahs that take 1 hr to grow is still...1hr

[hollow canyon]

growing 10 Dryos is much, much easier than growing a Stego, growing 5 Utahs would be equally easier to growing an apex carnivore.

[small pawn]

not saying the larger animal doesnt. All apexs as far as i know 1 shot utahs i think that is its advantage plus the health pool

[karmic delta]

if they spawn at relatively the same time...thats still 1 hr

[wide cosmos]

Keep in mind that to coordinate 5 utahs is alot harder than 1 person controlling 1 dino

[golden coral]

Do that, and remove the stun on miss (just make stamina drain so they cant just spam it/use it for travel or so), and that should be interesting. Proper dismount, but in turn make it potentially easier to catch on pounce (at least to me that's where the danger should lie for the utah, that the prey sees them coming and snaps them out of the air, hence the pack distraction + ambushes).

[hollow canyon]

It's also incomparably easier to grow

[obtuse ocean]

Yea, but you loose speed/agility/stam for size and power

[golden coral]

At the same time, if the rex plays perfectly, it would not get hit in the first place. So then it'd be a stalemate or the utahs would die?

[wide cosmos]

Yes and it's also alot harder to hunt as a pack vs solo apex

[sonic flame]

The stun on miss I feel is an important part of making Utahraptor's more challenging given their potential to body everything in packs

[golden coral]

Dilo, possibly with venom. Troodon? I... don't think so :p

[hollow canyon]

Exactly, glad we've reached the agreement on the apex having it much easier against the Utahs in this match up.

[sonic flame]

The rex cannot realistically be expected to avoid being pounced, it is too large and slow to dodge effectively and if the entire pack rushed it at once, at least one would connect

[small pawn]

true to a point which is why i hate Carno's they easily can move as fast as a utah and can turn on a dime just as much. plus with i think its 2 bites maybe 3 adult carno wins over utah not entirely sure i always run from carnos

[sonic flame]

Rex simply lacks a full body hitbox to prevent being attacked from every angle at once

this is true of every apex, they don't have a "you can't touch me" button

[dawn falcon]

Though, assuming rex gets an alt bite, you better hope the rex doesn’t time it’s bite with your pounce

[wide cosmos]

That's what I have in mind they both have pros and cons but they should be on equal footing 1 large apex vs alot smaller pack hunters

[karmic delta]

smallER not small

[obtuse ocean]

I think smaller dinos gonna have a better chance vs apexes then mid tiers tho. And midtiers are better against smaller dinos

[karmic delta]

utah is small. I would reasonably see allos contesting with a solo rex but Utahs is just....

[hollow canyon]

If they're on an equal footing then the Utahs don't have it harder in this match up do they?

[golden coral]

Yes and no. I think it's fair while we have slotting, but if there's actual demand of aiming to get the pounce, and risk of getting knocked on ass (or die if you pounce spiky things), then i don't think the stun on miss is neccesary, at least not on ground. Maybe if you hit trees/rocks I can see it, cause you did hit something and it hurt. But to me the stun on miss (ground) was mostly to prevent utahs from just traveling via pounce/spamming it (something they used to do back in the day!). I think with proper aiming required and knockdown/death if you misaim, that's punishing enough. Hitting other objects could have that stun, as should a carno ramming into a tree or rock too or maybe attacks in general for that matter.

[karmic delta]

the only small tier i could see contesting with Apexes is dilo and thats not because of its stats that solely because venom can be potent no matter how much you fucking weigh.

[wide cosmos]

Like I said not everyone can coordinate a pack to take down an apex. Some random utahs running in like lemming should have no chance.

[small pawn]

i can agree to that i have yet to see a carno get knocked over from Headbutting a tree from full charge. i think thats a little rediculouse

[karmic delta]

again. on the issue of utahs fighting an apex, it should be a difference in skill not a difference in stats and balance

Utah should be tuned to hunting midtiers as a pack.

[hollow canyon]

That doesn't sound like the two are on an equal footing then

[golden coral]

True enough in open combat, which is why it's a tricky question on what side should win. To me it would come down to the number of utahs then. If both sides played perfectly, then the rex would make them lose a member every time, so unless they had a full pack+ they would die before the rex does, or at the very least lose all but one utah then. Say you catch one utah every pounce, and they have to pounce so many times they'll run out of utahs first.

[wide cosmos]

Stats should make sense for utahs to take on apexes if they are coordinated.

[sonic flame]

I mean think of it like this, Utah runs up to an animal and misses its pounce, currently that means the prey animal has a very easy chance to punish it, while if it lacked a stun for missing then what, the utah loses a bit of stamina? The Utah would pretty easily be able to retreat and just try again that way, making a missed pounce a minor inconvenience rather than a terrible miscalculation. Given pounce's potency to punch up against animals far larger than it, having such a harsh punishment kinda makes sense.

[wide cosmos]

Not just face tanking one by one

[karmic delta]

stats should make sense for utahs to hunt midtiers, players skill is what should be the deciding factor whether utah kills a fucking rex.

Utah shouldnt be tuned to regularily hunt apexes

[wide cosmos]

Disagree

[hollow canyon]

That's not what they're meant to be doing? I don't think there's literally any player even one that just started to play the game who would have the bright idea of walking up to a Rex as a Utah and just trading bites one for one with it.

[sonic flame]

Well assuming pack limits stay the same, then yes the rex would win if it could always force a trade. Takes more than 8 pounces to drop a Stego iirc, and rex has an extra 2.8k hp and probably fewer sockets

[wide cosmos]

It's only feasible if you have a coordinated pack

[karmic delta]

yes. coordination aka player skill
not utahs stats

[sonic flame]

Well yeah, Utah's stats aren't built for it

[golden coral]

I get it, but if we changed aiming then the miscalculation would come in there. Say you pounce stego thagomizer = death. Say you pounced the head/tail = knocked on your ass like out of stamina. You had to hit the flanks to land. Then just missing on ground would just take 50% of your stam (so you're still out, for a little). And pouncing something else could stun because it's not a living creature retaliating in the same way.

[karmic delta]

and they shouldnt be

[wide cosmos]

No matter how skilled you are dryo pack not gonna kill a steggo

[sonic flame]

is anyone suggesting Utah gets buffed to allow it to easily drop apexes with minimal effort?

[karmic delta]

Utahs stats shouldnt be built for hunting apexes. It should be the skill a player has that is the deciding factor

[karmic delta]

why shouldnt they?

[golden coral]

Basically what I mean. If both sides played perfectly, then the utahs should not be able to just "safely" pounce, since they can and should have risk when getting on (instead of off), so you'd defend that way. At least that's how I want to see it go down, it makes more sense to me. Also encourages utahs to ambush or distract, so the target have a harder time to aim and catch one of them and all that.

[sonic flame]

That's kinda already the case, like now if a Stego can always force a trade then the Stego will beat a max pack of Utahs

[hollow canyon]

You will be able to hunt the apexes after some of the issues with the game are fixed - specifically the pounce disengaging if the pounced animal makes any contact with the water and bleed being bugged. Utah also might've gotten hit with the inertia a bit too hard but other than that I'm not sure what exactly you'd want the devs to do about it.

[karmic delta]

Dryo is a small tier and if it wants to fight an apex like stego, shouldnt it? utah gets to do it?

[sonic flame]

There is a point where some animals simply shouldn't fight other animals

[golden coral]

What? No? The closest I've come is arguing for the removal of the stun on ground-pounces at the trade of removal of slotting I think.

[karmic delta]

but utah fighting the biggest animal on the island isnt?

[sonic flame]

The question was rhetorical and not directed at you lol

[golden coral]

Alright xD

[sonic flame]

Yes because that's Utah's specific thing, and also rex is far from the largest, no amount of Utahs could take a Brachi

[karmic delta]

...

[wide cosmos]

They shouldn't. It's just an example. No solo or couple Utah can take down an apex. But if you manage to got 5+ working together then there shouldn't be any solo apex out of your reach

[sonic flame]

Dryo's thing is speed, not combat, it can't even fight things its own size, let alone several times larger

[karmic delta]

then dryo should hunt rex.

[sonic flame]

pounce's entire purpose is to allow it to take animals several times larger

How exactly would dryo manage that?

[golden coral]

I do think it's a fair trade. I'd rather make pounce more challenging to land and use, with more risk. With no slotting, you'd still have the "shit" moment if you pounce the wrong spot. It's just that you won't get as punished if you just pounce the ground. You can keep the stun for other terrain/objects of course.

[karmic delta]

yes. several times larger is midtiers

[sonic flame]

Run up and get its face bitten off?

[wide cosmos]

If dryo was intended big game pack hunter, then yes

[golden coral]

I'm fine with full sized utah packs hunting solo apexes

[karmic delta]

"big game" isnt apexes

[sonic flame]

Most of the mid tiers have the combination of bulk to shrug off Utah and speed to catch up to it as it attempts to flee, things like Allo and Alberto and Maia are in the perfect size range to shit stomp Utahraptor

the apexes are too slow to punish a Utahraptor easily, which makes them more viable targets for packs that can dodge their attacks

[hollow canyon]

It's also pretty good at killing smaller stuff considering how much bleed it applies and that it pins the smaller animals down. Let's not play it down like this, as pounce isn't a tool that's used just for hunting large animals.

[wide cosmos]

Yes it is. Apex is not some magical term that makes you unlikable in game

[sonic flame]

Yeah, though against smaller game you can also use your bite and alt attack, things that simply aren't an option above a certain size

[karmic delta]

i never said apexes should be unkillable. I think midtiers like allo should put up competition in packs against apexes.

[wide cosmos]

4 midtier sure 8 low tiers also sure

[hollow canyon]

Bite is still an option against the larger animals, I've personally used it quite a bit against Stegos while they were bucking.

[sonic flame]

most of the low tiers would just get fucked against apexes, they'd lack any dedicated ability to help them against larger targets

[karmic delta]

Small tiers like Utah shouldnt be looking at a rex unless theyre like. in a fucking discord practising for this day by day.

again the issue is player skill, not balance

[sonic flame]

Even Troodon's venom won't save it from the fact that a Rex could literally walk on it and kill it

[wide cosmos]

Yes, those utahs. Not some utahs. ACTUAL UTAH PACKS THAT HUNT TOOGETHER

[sonic flame]

Whenever anyone is talking about Utahs taking apexes, the general assumption is that the pack is coordinated enough to attempt such a thing

[karmic delta]

Then you agree that utah shouldnt be tuned to hunting apexes and that the issue is player skill

[sonic flame]

Everyone has been agreeing that Utah shouldn't be able to take apexes with raw stats

hell, Utah would need like 4 or 5k hp to think about doing something like that

[wide cosmos]

It should. Thats the point. 1-2 utahs = food for apex. 5-8 utahs = danger for apex

[sonic flame]

or they'd need enough pounce damage to melt a rex in a single pounce

and those numbers are stupidly inflated

[hollow canyon]

The question is what exactly do you mean by "the pack is coordinated enough"? What does this coordination exactly entail because if it's just the stuff I've seen above - e.g. they don't miss the pounce - then that's not exactly setting the bar very high.

[karmic delta]

not 5-8 utahs, 5-8 skilled players. 5-8 utahs shouldnt be a guranteed danger for rex

[dapper frost]

5 utahs for an apex

[sonic flame]

Don't miss the pounce, don't waste your stam, don't get touched once for 20+ minutes, etc

don't make a single mistake, or you die instantly

[karmic delta]

you should need to be the best of the fucking best utah pack to be able to hunt down the average rex player

[sonic flame]

because you have 450hp, and even the weakest attacks from apexes are likely to deal more than that

save Stego's bite

[karmic delta]

because utah shouldnt have its stats tuned for fighting rex players

[wide cosmos]

Utahs are carnivorous pack hunters, they shouldn't be ignore by any solo apex regardless of skill

We are not talking about compys here

[hollow canyon]

None of that requires any serious amount of skill. And besides - you could still take a tip of the tail attack from any animal.

[karmic delta]

utah may aswell be a fucking compy with the size it has

[sonic flame]

Disagree thunder, skill should have to matter

[karmic delta]

yes they should

[wide cosmos]

[sonic flame]

why grow a single 8 hour rex when me and the boys can grow 8 1 hour Utahs and fucking melt anything on the server with little resistance

[sonic flame]

Compared to most apexes, Utah is 15-20x smaller

[karmic delta]

the average group of players playing utah. just average players in a discord call should not pose a threat to rex

[sonic flame]

so it's little more than a rat

8 Utahs = a 3.6 ton animal

a full pack is equal to a Maia in terms of raw size

Rex is over double that

[karmic delta]

you should need to live and breathe utah PvP to be able to take on the average rex player

[sonic flame]

if the utahs could just go "hurr durr damage" and melt a rex, then what's the point of a rex?

[karmic delta]

because some animals will simply be better than others because

THIS ISNT DINOSAUR TEKKEN. THIS IS A SURVIVAL GAME

[hollow canyon]

The size difference between a a Rex and a Utah is about as big as the size difference between a male lion and a dachshund

[small pawn]

i still think you have your head stuck in the fact that utah pack is coming out unharmed. a group of average players like you said should be able to take out a rex at the cost of 1-2 players of the pack

[wide cosmos]

But it isn't like that already, one mistake from Utah and it's dead

[karmic delta]

...n

[dapper frost]

Only 1 to 2?

[karmic delta]

no

[sonic flame]

No it's not like that currently, Utah's don't one shot Stego (anymore) with raw damage, nor would they be able to do that to Rex

[karmic delta]

average utah players in a pack of 8 vs an average rex player should come out with 1 utah and the rex maybe almost dead.

[small pawn]

of average players yes, you cant tell me the rex is going to be able to play perfect and the utahs are just some average joe. If they have communication in Discord you damn right it should because they are talking to each other

[sonic flame]

A successful attack on a Rex from a pack of Utah's should be a superficial wound, and over time it piles up and eventually weakens the rex to the point that it drops or gets killed by something else

[wide cosmos]

That's dumb, how do you even image that. Utahs just lemming train into Rex and bite him?

[sonic flame]

so you'd need many many attacks to eventually drop the rex, not just one or two

[small pawn]

but you are talking about utah's staying in constant fighting

[karmic delta]

its called the fact that rex is one of the biggest carnivores to ever walk the damn planet

[sonic flame]

I mean if the rex is playing perfectly then the rex would be able to force a trade every time the pack engages

[small pawn]

not running in biteing running out and making it atrition based

[sonic flame]

Which means every attack the pack of Utahs makes on the rex results in one less Utah

[wide cosmos]

Ok, and this is a dinosaur game not RL

[sonic flame]

8 attacks later, no more pack and the rex is still standing

that's up to the rex to snipe the Utahs, and up to the Utahs to not get sniped

[karmic delta]

its also a survival game, not a fighting game

[small pawn]

exactly but if you take an average rex and a group of average utahs that can communicate through discord i do believe that the pack should win with minimal damage

[wide cosmos]

Fighting is a part of survival

[sonic flame]

I mean basically any damage is a one shot

[karmic delta]

THERES A DIFFERENCE

[sonic flame]

So a coordinated group of Utahs in discord sure they can plan their attacks, its still up to them all to avoid being touched at all

for some players this will be a lot easier than others

[karmic delta]

Do i need to send that image again, because this isnt a pvp game

[wide cosmos]

Also I can use the same logic on your Apex concept. Whats kind of survival it would be if apexes have almost nothing to fear

[dapper frost]

Average pack of utahs vs average rex = the pack winning with minimal damage? What

[sonic flame]

since the Utahs would probably need to land like, at least 10 or 12 successful attacks, while the rex only needs to hit them once to drastically decrease their damage

[sturdy stone]

don't mind me just casually browsing the chat
but uh, personally, I think any group of utahs that try and take on a rex are either extremely desperate, or just plain stupid
it shouldn't be a cake walk to kill a rex with what's basically a chicken in comparison
back to stalking i goooo

[golden coral]

Should go for all the large/apex tier animals really. You attack in waves, the first few won't do much, but it does add up, as it should. This also forces the utahs to put themselves at risk a lot, as they should vs a rex or similar animal.

[dapper frost]

the pack could win sure but they would probably take more than minimal damage

[small pawn]

It is a pvp game in survival when you have carnivores and herbivores its just picking your fights vs just fighting everything.

[sonic flame]

and every interaction that the rex wins gives it more time, and decreases the chances of the Utahs winning

[hollow canyon]

They have each other to fear and packs of mid tiers that actually take some time and effort to grow, rather than Utahs that you can get to full adult while barely paying attention to the game.

[karmic delta]

"We are not making a fighting game. There will be characters that are just inherently better than others because it makes sense for them to be"

[golden coral]

Yes and no. I'd say just above half a pack of losses in an average vs average, communication or not.

[sonic flame]

I mean ideally Utah vs Apex will be monumentally difficult simply because the Utahraptors are going to be so much fucking weaker, and thus have to last a very long time without making a single mistake

[small pawn]

i can see it,

[wide cosmos]

Can you stop quoting that. You don't seem to understand what it references.

[small pawn]

agreee

[golden coral]

They should absolutely have things to fear. Each other, midtiers, and some specific small tiers like utah and maybe dilo. I don't think anyone here says they should not fear a full utah pack, because a solo apex should absolutely be wary around something like that.

[sonic flame]

your average pack of Utahs would likely get bodied simply due to the effort of bringing down an animal that laughs at your best attempts

[karmic delta]

please enlighten me then as to what its talking about other than "This is a survival game not a pvp game"

[wide cosmos]

Agree. But seems like some people think differently, that's why we are having this discussion

[golden coral]

Me trying to be reasonable here xD

[sonic flame]

If you'd like a game that adopts the rule of anything should be able to fight anything and win, try BoB, this game is fundamentally unfair in terms of combat because you don't have to fight everything that moves

A troodon doesn't stand a chance against a rex, it's too small to go for anything but the legs, and the act of walking would smash a Troodon into a fine paste

[karmic delta]

Mid tiers could easily contend with apexes in packs and large tiers like sucho should def put up a challenge. Not a 450kg utah

[small pawn]

My problem with utah right now is that there isnt enough ai at the right size for growing utahs. as a fresh spawned utah i nearly died of starvation just looking for food and when i found one it was a adult dryo which nearly killed me before it dieing. i do believe something there needs to be something done in that position

[sonic flame]

Yes but they aren't saying a lone Utah should be able to threaten apexes, they are talking about a full pack

[karmic delta]

but they are also apexes for a reason

[sonic flame]

and Utah is unique in that's its entire gimmik is that it's a pack hunter that can punch above its size, outside of maybe Dilo nothing else in its size range has that ability

[golden coral]

Honestly, I feel like having a max pack should be rare for most things. So most packs would run around 5-6 utahs, with 7-8 being more rare, and those groups should be more feared, because well, it's harder to keep them sustained in the first place. But an average pack of 8 utahs vs an average stego or rex should end with a dead apex, but 4-5 dead utahs, depending on how well both sides played.

[karmic delta]

average utah PACK should be easily fought off by an average rex player, assuming the rex knows how to hit the utahs

[sturdy stone]

mmmmyes troodon groups hassling adult rexes will be an absolute charm

[karmic delta]

punch above its size. Aka Mid tiers

[sonic flame]

Well yeah, that's pretty obviously the case

[golden coral]

Yeah. Roster issues! If we had a more fleshed out roster, utah would shine a fair bit more!

[karmic delta]

because thats whats above a utah

mid tiers

[karmic delta]

not what thunder is saying

[hollow canyon]

Not even roster issues, that whole situation is more of an AI-issue

[sonic flame]

Thunder was saying that a pack should be able to have a chance at killing apexes, I agree, and you agree, we also all agree that their raw damage or hp shouldn't be tuned to let them do this easily

The Utahs are playing a massive uphill battle, since they really shouldn't be fucking with a rex

but they can try, which is more than any other small tier can say

[karmic delta]

an average utah pack shouldnt have a chance at killing a rex. an top tier, communicating and coordinated utah pack should.

[wide cosmos]

[golden coral]

@small pawnThe worst thing is, pretty much everything in the roster right now is designed to combat utahs. You have teno, who is designed to fight utahs (rivalry concept and all that), you have pachy, who is also designed that way (also rivals), you then have carno who is a designated small game hunter (meaning it should shit on utahs and dryos and stuff), and then there's stego, one of the worst apexes for a pack that wants to flank things to go for, barring anky, what with it's anti-flank nature. So there's dryo, and maybe cera (depending on what they do with it) and hypsi to hunt, aside from juvies/subs of the aforementioned critters.

[sonic flame]

When did I say you average pack should be able to?

[small pawn]

No a PACK of any carnivorous animal should be a threat to any solo apex period. Bears dont go tromping through wolf territory because their not stupid. even though a bear can easily kill one it is not stupid enough to take on a full pack

[small pawn]

i did

[sonic flame]

So let's break this down again

[karmic delta]

almost like irl carnivores tend to avoid fights at all. but people look for fights here so you have to balance for that

[sonic flame]

8 Utahs = 8 bites from rex to win

1 rex = a hell of a lot more than 8 pounces

[dapper frost]

Not saying utah shouldn't be able to take on apexes, but I'm pretty sure there is a big difference between the size of a bear and wolf to the size of a rex and utah

[sonic flame]

so if the rex hits every Utah when the Utahs go to pounce, the rex wins

[karmic delta]

an average midtier pack like allos, should be a challenge for Rex

[sonic flame]

the Utahs get at most, 7 attacks on the rex

each attack weaker than the last as they lost more and more members

[wide cosmos]

Same as larger size low tier pack

[karmic delta]

the size difference between a bear and a wolf and a utah and a rex is not comparable

[karmic delta]

n o

[golden coral]

@sonic flameApply that to every and all large/apex tier animals and we're pretty much set!

[karmic delta]

not unless they are extremely skilled

[sonic flame]

An average pack who tries to take on the rex will most certainly lose, a highly coordinated pack could manage it

[karmic delta]

also im not sure if you've seen the clip where dondi talked about this exact topic

dondi mentioned a pack of 20 good utahs likely losing the majority of their numbers just to kill a rex

[sonic flame]

Here's the problem

[small pawn]

im not comparing size im comparing power.

[vocal minnow]

And who is dondi

[sonic flame]

how is the rex hitting them if the Utah's are good

[sonic flame]

Lead dev

[vocal minnow]

Ok

[dapper frost]

Is the power difference between a bear and wolf comparable to a utah and rex?

Once again I'm not saying utah shouldn't be able to take apexes

[karmic delta]

still...not..comparable..

[sonic flame]

Because a Utah that is good should be able to evade the attacks of a rex, that being the case, how exactly is the rex managing to kill them

[vocal minnow]

And still utah bleed the prey out

[golden coral]

This is why the pounce has to be risky, so it can't just be a matter of using it and getting off safely. Though I imagine the rex would have some sort of "sidesnap" maybe. Or a lunge, so it can actually go after the utah it's bucked off.

[wide cosmos]

It should as a pack, not some Utah, or couple utahs

[dapper frost]

I didn't disagree with that tho

[sonic flame]

Personally I'd like the bucking animations of some of the larger animals to function as attacks

[barren oracle]

rex be like

[karmic delta]

a regular average pack of people playing utah should not kill a rex

[sonic flame]

dismount by X time or the Rex just Jurassic Park's your ass

[barren oracle]

ooh ahhh

[golden coral]

Oh? Like how the stego wiggles it's tail currently?

[sonic flame]

Yeah except imagine if that impaled Utahs

[wide cosmos]

If it's average Rex, yes they should

[hollow canyon]

Wolf packs on most occasions avoid messing with bears. Such occurences happen at times with bears taking the kills of wolf packs but wolves most of the time retreat in such a situation. Not to mention this isn't an apt comparison - again the size difference between a Utah and a Rex is that between a dachshund and a lion.

[karmic delta]

No.

[dapper frost]

No

[sonic flame]

or the stop drop and roll meme

[karmic delta]

utah is not that powerful and SHOULD NOT be that powerful

[golden coral]

interesting idea. And yes, stego wallow bucking when?! :p

"Flop!"

[karmic delta]

it is a fucking SMALL TIER not even HALF A TON

[sonic flame]

To be fair Utah is a little more complicated than just its weight

[karmic delta]

weight isnt everything but being under half a ton vs multi tonne apex predator its.

[sonic flame]

Pounce is really the only reason this is even a discussion

[karmic delta]

a bit fucking ridiculous

[sonic flame]

Because Pounce kinda says "fuck you" to the normal rules of combat

it has multiple systems entirely dedicated to it

[golden coral]

Not really no. Average vs average the win should go to the one that has invested more time, has more power, and is on the defensive in the encounter. Especially when there's a big difference in investment and power.

[karmic delta]

also now, thunder is arguing a pack of utahs should have its stats tuned for hunting apexes

[sonic flame]

and it's entire purpose is to allow Utahraptors to threaten things that they otherwise wouldn't even think about attacking

[golden coral]

@sonic flamePounce is such a problem child xD Always have been a bit weird ^^

[karmic delta]

yes. Mid and maybe large tiers.

not the apex predator of the environment

[sonic flame]

Again, if the pack is the cream of the crop and knows what they're doing, apexes are on the menu

but be prepared to fucking die if anyone blinks at the wrong time

[karmic delta]

YES. if theyre GOOD. the difference there is SKILL. NOT STATS. THUNDER IS SAYING STATS

thats what im against here

[sonic flame]

and we ignore that

People wanted Deino to have 1k bite force, ignored that

[karmic delta]

good

[wide cosmos]

Utahs are carnivores, they suppose to hunt and be feared. If Rex stumbled upon couple utahs then it just be an easy snack for rex. If it's a large pack, Rex should feel like it made a mistake engaging. Adds alot more dynamic to the game.

[sonic flame]

The Utahs should always be on the back foot

they are so out of their depth against an apex

[sonic flame]

if we had the option, a headswing from a rex would be fatal

[karmic delta]

utah shouldnt be a natural predator of rex

[sonic flame]

To be fair, Apex predator applies to none of the animals

[wide cosmos]

Do you want me to quote you what you been quoting?

[sonic flame]

a Rex's natural predators are the other apex predators and the strains

[wide cosmos]

It's a survival game

[karmic delta]

which mean not every animal has to kill every animal

[sonic flame]

Utah isn't built for hunting apexes

[karmic delta]

aka UTAH SHOULDNT AND DOESNT HAVE TO COMPETE WITH REX

[sonic flame]

like, Para? That's good eating. Rex? Fuck no

[karmic delta]

THANK YOU

[wide cosmos]

Utah pack is a natural preditor not "utah" big difference

[golden coral]

Yes and no. Like I said, average = win to the rex, vs an average utah pack. A skilled utah pack vs a skilled rex = also rex win. You want to hunt the weak ones, the not fully grown ones, the "dumb" ones. And so on. You have control of the encounter via speed, you are on the weaker end via stats, and if you're the one attacking, those are all factors that should demand more skill than the other side. Should a rex be wary of a full utah pack, of course, but you have to be anyway, because of the fact that they can still inflict damage and all.

[karmic delta]

NEITHER SHOULD BE A NATURAL PREDATOR OF REX

THATS THE ENTIRE POINT OF APEX

[sonic flame]

The only times attacking a rex should be worth it for Utahs is if the rex isn't doing to hot, or if the pack has the edge in some otherway, like a total ambush on open ground

and even then, why would they attack a rex

[karmic delta]

you dont get to win just because "hehe utah is a carnivore"

[wide cosmos]

I don't understand why are quoting RL stuff. Most of the animals in game haven't even lived in the same time period

[sonic flame]

Rex should obviously be able to kill Utah because largest normal land carnivore, and because it's so much fucking larger

Utah has no need to be able to kill rex

It's faster, just leave

[karmic delta]

because the lead dev of the game, while he isnt aiming for total realism is still aiming for a BELIEVABLE ECOSYSTEM

[sonic flame]

can it, sure probably if you're really lucky and skilled

but why risk it when there's nothing to gain, and everything to lose

[dapper frost]

Realism =/= accuracy

[wide cosmos]

Ok then it's believable that large pack can take down one large apex

[dapper frost]

You can have inaccurate aspects be realistic

[vocal minnow]

Guys you sre discuting since 2 hours

[hollow canyon]

you can risk it because if you lose a Utah you lose little to nothing

[karmic delta]

a large pack of animals that are half its fucking weight. not an animal that is 1/12th its fucking weight and thats assumin rex is only 6 tonnes, which it will likely be MORE

[golden coral]

You new here? This is how it normally goes. :D

[vocal minnow]

Ahahhahahahah

[sonic flame]

I mean sure, though in the 70+ minutes it takes you to grow and get back to the pack that rex has likely fucked off

[hollow canyon]

...or you know - it died

[sonic flame]

The key thing is that death makes you unable to continue that hunt in any reasonable manner

[wide cosmos]

Weight is not the only or most important factor

[sonic flame]

Only if the rex actually did die tho, and if it did that rex wasn't doing a very good job

[karmic delta]

you are arguing that 8 rats should kill a polar bear

[hollow canyon]

8 dachshunds killing a lion is more like it

[wide cosmos]

More like 8 small cats, rats are bad example

[karmic delta]

that isnt...any better

[sonic flame]

you would need 20 Utahs to equal the weight of one Rex

[karmic delta]

im sorry but i would never in my life bet on 8 cats versus a Fucking polar bear

[wide cosmos]

By cats I mean wild ones like, Lyxs, mountain lions etc

[karmic delta]

still wouldnt

[dapper frost]

Is a mountain lion a small cat tho?

[karmic delta]

not rlly

lynx are small cats

[dapper frost]

I'm thinking more like house cats and bobcats

[karmic delta]

Utah isnt powerful enough to contend with Rex and it shouldnt be. The difference of that fight should be player skill

"There will be characters that are just inherently better than others because it makes sense for them to be"

[sonic flame]

That's ideally going to be the case in every matchup where a smaller animal is attacking a larger one

some exceptions

like I think it's likely that Kentro/Diablo can handle a Carno, despite being lighter than it

[vocal minnow]

Utahs would have a chance even if it was a good rex player

[karmic delta]

no.

[sonic flame]

but like, if an Allo wants to take down a Maia, it should have to play it smart so the Maia doesn't flatten it

[karmic delta]

a skilled rex player should put down a utah pack no matter how good. Because the utahs CANT fuck up.

[sonic flame]

if the rex is a good player than the Utahs would simply have to be better

[vocal minnow]

Its like lions and elephants

[karmic delta]

it really isnt

[hollow canyon]

I don't think those examples are at all comparable to Utah vs Rex

[karmic delta]

it is alot fucking bigger

[vocal minnow]

How it is then

[sonic flame]

more like lions and hippos lol

[barren oracle]

utah would die of fall damage from the buck xD

[karmic delta]

house cats and a polar bear

[sturdy stone]

a utah pack should absolutely get demolished by a rex if their entire thought process is "hurr kill big rex for bragging rights"
it's like comparing a chicken to an ostrich. ostrich is gonna win.

[sonic flame]

a whole bunch of the utahs being angry and the rex shrugging it all off

[hollow canyon]

We've already gone over this - 30 lions, taking on an elephant that weighs 1/3 of a Rex. This isn't a good comparison.

[sonic flame]

then if the Utahs get too testy, the rex just fucking crushes them like paper

[hollow canyon]

And an elephant isn't a T.rex either

[sonic flame]

in a situation where both players are playing perfectly, the rex would always win

[wide cosmos]

We keep forgetting the whole intended big game pack hunter intention of an animal. It's not called mid tier game hunter

[karmic delta]

you aren't blue taking down the indominus rex. you're an actual animal

[karmic delta]

mid tier IS BIG GAME

[sonic flame]

however it's unrealistic to expect the rex to play perfectly, but that goes for the Utahs as well

[hollow canyon]

Utahraptor doesn't weigh 1000kg

[karmic delta]

big doesnt just mean THE BIGGEST IN THE GAME

[hollow canyon]

The largest Rex weighs 9.7t

[sonic flame]

Those are outdated sizes on rex, and the Utah isn't reliable

[hollow canyon]

It's not that Utah isn't reliable - it's just flat out wrong

[sonic flame]

given that irl Utah was a bulky heavy set monster, and ingame Utah is a twig

[hollow canyon]

Utah's highest estimate is ~500kg

[sturdy stone]

big game pack hunter in relation to herbivores, their intended diet. their intended diet sure as hell isn't going to include a whole ass apex carnivore lol

[wide cosmos]

Why is weight a factor?

[sonic flame]

Mass = Hp for one

Mass = special ability thresholds for another

[vocal minnow]

If the rex is out of stam and several utahs pounce it would pinn

[wide cosmos]

Well I understand that but it's about the tools. Utahs has pounce to hunt big animals as a pack

[karmic delta]

.

no

fucking no

just

no

[sonic flame]

Sure, Rex has the tools to defend itself

[karmic delta]

you aren't blue fighting the indominus rex.

this isnt jurassic park

[sonic flame]

if you want to hunt large game, go for large game that isn't capable of spinning around and just melting you instantly

[hollow canyon]

The Utahs are about as likely to pin a Rex as a housecat is to pin you down - unless you're already dying it's just not happening

[wide cosmos]

That comparison doesn't make sense and Noone but you are referring it

[sonic flame]

go for something like a Shant, it's literally shaped like a billboard and doesn't have the horns teeth or armor of the other apexes

[vocal minnow]

Yes look at lions the elephants has no stam left and gets pinnes

And he even has 4 legs

[sonic flame]

Yes but that's not how our CC system works

Utah also wouldn't be able to pile 20 Utahs onto a single rex

at most you'd get 4

[karmic delta]

house cats and polarbears is a better comparison. not lions and elephants

[sonic flame]

and even an exhausted rex can easily stand up when it's only got 1.8 tons on it

[vocal minnow]

Why house cats?

[wide cosmos]

No pinning big animal don't make sense

[karmic delta]

because thats about the power comparison between a utah and a rex

[hollow canyon]

that's about the size difference that we're talking about

[vocal minnow]

Rather lynx

[hollow canyon]

I'm assuming you weigh 70-90kg

[karmic delta]

....maybe

[hollow canyon]

No, Utah isn't a lynx in this case

Do you think 8 housecats could pin you down?

[vocal minnow]

Yeah after a while

[sturdy stone]

wh-

[hollow canyon]

I rest my case, ladies and gentlemen

[vocal minnow]

You cant really compare dinos with animals

[sonic flame]

????

They are literally animals what

[vocal minnow]

Maybe size but not strenght

[sonic flame]

Dinosaurs weren't fucking superpowered

maybe in The Isle, but irl, it's not like their muscles were just better or something

[vocal minnow]

Yeah but they were bigfer and much stronger than todays animals

[hollow canyon]

You're right - it's still an awful comparison because you're a primate with an extremely fragile skin that is still vulnerable to the claws of a cat. You're not a giant theropod covered by scales all over its body.

[vocal minnow]

I mean look at trec bite strenght

T rex

[sonic flame]

Not all of them

For example, the largest Utahraptor is still smaller than the largest living land carnivore

a Polar bear is double their size

[vocal minnow]

Yeah

[sonic flame]

so sure, the currently largest known theropod with the most powerful bite is an impressive animal, but not every dinosaur is the largest known theropod with the most powerful bite

[karmic delta]

Utahs are small game hunters that use pack based hunting tactics to take down things that are bigger than them not the biggest land carnivore on the god damn island

[sonic flame]

so saying that as a rule dinosaurs were larger and stronger than any other type of animal isn't exactly fair if you're only citing the largest examples

[sonic flame]

Sorry to be that guy, but the hyperendocrine strains would like a word about that largest land carnivore thing

[karmic delta]

we're disregarding the strains rn. they aren't meant to be balanced

strains say fuck ur balance

[sonic flame]

Debatable

Most of them yes

some of them, not so much

Hyper regen only helps if you don't get one shot after all

haha Brachi stomp on Hyper carno and turn into paste

or Hyper Utah getting fucking bodied by a rex

because "ooh I'm like 1 ton now and I heal really fast" vs "I'm 9 tons of go fuck yourself"

[wide cosmos]

Debatable

[wide cosmos]

So the quote you like so much making goes out the window if you choose to play apex, since according to you you should be able to ignore majority of the roster

[sonic flame]

I mean yeah

as an apex you do kinda get to say fuck you to most of the roster

but they can also just... leave

"Oh no here comes the rex I better walk away at 2 miles per hour!"

[wide cosmos]

And then you have 90% of the people just playing biggest badges apex, how fun /sarcasm

[karmic delta]

....thats...thats how apexes work

[golden coral]

Well yes. If you are an "apex" you are literally the biggest, meanest things around, excepting the strains which are well, once in a blue moon and designed to shit on everything else pretty much.

[sonic flame]

Only if you can make it to adult

[golden coral]

And yes. There'll be other challenges, and the playstyles/niches

[karmic delta]

thats why you make them difficult to grow

[golden coral]

I mean, I'm looking forward to arboreal gameplay

[sonic flame]

The grind to get to the relative safety of adult apex is going to be hell on earth

[golden coral]

I.. doubt I'll get an apex doing that :p

So it's not just about sheer power, it's enjoying the playstyle too

[sonic flame]

and on top of that, even an adult apex only gets to say fuck you to most of the roster

[karmic delta]

thats why we have growth times and diets

[sonic flame]

keyword: most

[golden coral]

You could go brachi, be "invincible", but I doubt you'd enjoy it that much

Keep in mind, people generally want to enjoy their gameplay too, and if you just go rex because "I can fight", well, 90% of the roster can just avoid you

[sonic flame]

I for one would love to be a sauropod, invincible to all but the largest strains, even if I can't interact with the players around me much

[karmic delta]

rex will have extreme hunger demands to keep its massive body moving and strict and difficult diet demands aswell as an extremely long growth time

[sonic flame]

Rex is also built to tackle dangerous prey, sure a Trike is a good meal, but one wrong move and you fucking die for it

[vocal minnow]

Dyro will kill rex easy….

[golden coral]

Playable brachi please. It's JP iconic as anything! I'd love to try it out, I like it so much more than cama. For some reason I find cama ugly and weird, never liked it, even pue was cooler!

[sonic flame]

and if you're a rex, you have the options of "Well I guess I can fight a Trike" and risk death, or "Well I guess I'll try to ambush some small game" and risk starvation

[karmic delta]

rex will have to ambush trike to get it imo

[golden coral]

But the point was more so that I suspect all the apexes will be rather specific in playstyle

[sonic flame]

yeah if a rex comes at a trike from the front the Trike's already won

[karmic delta]

like if a rex has to face down a trike? might aswell find something else.

[wide cosmos]

So you make it to adult apex = you have little to no competition?

[golden coral]

So it's not just "be a stego and you're set", because you might not enjoy the very slow and "chill" playstyle of a stego even if you get massive power

[sonic flame]

yeah, If

[karmic delta]

"without natural predators" yes

[sonic flame]

If rex morality rate is any lower than 90%, then we fucked up

[karmic delta]

this literally doesnt disprove what i just said

[golden coral]

What do you mean facetanking a trike is a bad idea?!

[karmic delta]

"NOT EVERY CREATURE HAS TO BE ABLE TO KILL ANOTHER CREATURE"

[golden coral]

To be fair, with the stego thagomizer thing, maybe we will get facetanking trike as a viable strategy ^^

[sonic flame]

this is literally in reference to animals like apexes

[karmic delta]

AKA "AN APEX HAS NO NATURAL PREDATORS AND NOT EVERYTHING SHOULD BE ABLE TO KILL IT"

[wide cosmos]

It's talking about 1v1 scenarios

[sonic flame]

If you see an apex coming, you fucking leave

[karmic delta]

ITS TALKING ABOUT ANY ENCOUNTER

[sonic flame]

if you want to fight it, prepare to die

[wide cosmos]

And Machias that don't make sense like dryos killing carnos

[karmic delta]

how is this relevant?

[sonic flame]

Where are you seeing Dryos killing Carnos?

[wide cosmos]

So you just apply this quote only when it suits you agenda

[sonic flame]

an adult apex is the thing that makes you turn around

[golden coral]

Again, apply to all the "apexes" and we're set. I fully expect stego growth to be "through hell and back" when diets and stuff comes out.

[sonic flame]

their entire thing is that they sacrifice any ability to run, for a total lean into fight

[karmic delta]

"my agenda" fuck off this isnt debate club

[sonic flame]

Rex literally can't run

it has to be able to fight everything

[wide cosmos]

Not that I've seen it but people were asking for it, that's why this quote was made

[sonic flame]

The people asking for that are stupid

[karmic delta]

utahs killing rex is fine and natural but dryos killing carnos is unreasonable. okay

[sonic flame]

Dryo isn't made for combat, it's special ability (which sucks atm but that's another point) is literally only useful to run away

[karmic delta]

im not talking to this person anymore.

[sonic flame]

How would apexes be balanced if they cannot run, or fight things?

They would just die because they are too large and loud to hide

[wide cosmos]

Like I said before. If it's intended for dryo being a pack hunter it would be reasonable

[sonic flame]

and they aren't going to be out running anything

[sonic flame]

so since none of the apexes can outrun a Utah pack, they have to able to fight and win

[karmic delta]

im not saying anything else. im not putting anymore energy into arguing into a circle.

[wide cosmos]

Your Wikipedia quote of a definition of a word does not apply to a dinosaur game...

[sonic flame]

The quote you used literally disproved your point, don't throw stones in a glass house

[karmic delta]

Rex is an Apex. It shouldn't have natural predators, that does not mean it should not have competition. it should have competition from mid tiers, large tiers, and other apexes. Those aren't natural predators.

[fathom obsidian]

i've never seen such a metldown lol

[sonic flame]

This is literally the "but steel is heavier than feathers" video

[karmic delta]

ive been arguing in a fucking circle for the last 3 hours

[sonic flame]

Utah is a pack hunter of big game sure, big game like Para and Shant, not big game like rex or stego

Animals are allowed to have bad matchups, shant has a winning matchup against nearly everything in the game, but Utah will likely be its weakness

[sonic flame]

it lakes the ability to deal with Utahraptor as well as other animals can

[dawn falcon]

This literally proves his or her point lol

[sonic flame]

This literally supports Angular's point

You are only proving yourself wrong with that quote

[sonic flame]

[karmic delta]

this is what I mean. IN a fucking circle.

[sonic flame]

So tell me this, if you are a rex, what are you supposed to do if a pack of Utahs show up?

[wide cosmos]

Judge them, based on that choose either fight or flight.

[sonic flame]

You are a rex, you cannot flee.

[lament cloak]

the key word is that not "every" creature has to be able to fight everything, rex. HAS to be able to fight everything, (except the 3 big sauropods) because it cannot outrun them, if you can't evade something. you HAVE to have a fighting chance to kill it

[sonic flame]

You are slower than they are, too large to hide, and too loud to slip away stealthily, try again

[lament cloak]

how in dondi's name is rex going to flee from utahs

[wide cosmos]

Then fight it is

[sonic flame]

But you want the Utahs to win right?

So then Rex just dies?

8 hours down the drain because you got spotted?

This is why Rex needs to be able to win consistently in most cases

[wide cosmos]

If I'm a lone Rex and it's a large pack yes, they should have upper hand

[sonic flame]

Define large pack

[karmic delta]

im fucking done

[golden coral]

@wide cosmosI think you're missing the point. A stego, anky, rex, giga, can not escape very well. A spino could retreat to water, a deino can, a shant can probably run feasibly and has the sheer bulk to actually "outlast" the utahs and get away.

[karmic delta]

im going back to discussion

[fathom obsidian]

can we talk about something else?

[wide cosmos]

6-8

[lament cloak]

im going to take a quote from Krow's book here.

"im glad we have a QA team"

[sonic flame]

So you are a lone rex, and 6-8 Utahs spotted you. You die the end.

Good gameplay

[dawn falcon]

You’re a large pack of 8 Utah’s against an 8 ton theropod with a thick af body. You may not even be able to pierce that lol

[hollow canyon]

^

[dawn falcon]

Dude has so much muscle your teeth could break

[golden coral]

@sonic flameWait... is the anky faster than the stego? What do you think? :p

[hollow canyon]

"large pack"

[lament cloak]

you wouldn't break its skin with a bite, but you would with your toe claw

[sonic flame]

I don't want to think about that

[golden coral]

Hah! Fair enough :p

[wide cosmos]

No it would be a long fight, since utahs are attrition hunters. And depending on how good the Rex or the pack is either one could walk away winner

[dawn falcon]

Fun fact
Rex with alt bite

[lament cloak]

[sonic flame]

But the Utahs would have the edge would they not? Based on your very own stance the Utahs should be winning, so then you have "large" packs of 6-8 Utahs going around hunting rexes because they can easily.

Rex meanwhile, is too slow to flee, to loud and large to hide, and just has to sit there and die

sure it can fight, but you're only delaying the inevitable

[karmic delta]

i just fucking- if a fucking SMALL tier pack has an 50/50 against a fucking rex. how powerful would mid-tier packs be then?

[wide cosmos]

Never said it should be easy. It should be viable

[karmic delta]

no it shouldnt

[sonic flame]

Why? Why does Utah need to hunt Rex?

What does Utah bring that no other apex tier threat can?

[lament cloak]

rex should be able to consistently take on 15 utahs and live, a coordinated pack of 8 can do it, but odds are the lose, like, nearly every single time. utah is meant to be a pack hunter that takes on mid tiers, and in large (10+ utahs) can tusle with bigger things

[karmic delta]

utah uses pack numbers to punch above its weight class. GUESS WHATS ABOVE A UTAHS WEIGHT CLASS. MID TIERS

[wide cosmos]

Many reasons, and it's a Utah pack that saw lone Rex and took the opportunity

[sonic flame]

And large, and apex if you're good enough

[dawn falcon]

I honestly think Rexes alt bite should be fast and sudden, but take a considerable amount of stamina to use, like throwing all your weight at once, accompanied with a ground pound with one of its legs and a devastating bite.

[sonic flame]

Okay but why did they take it, what do they have to gain?

[dawn falcon]

hm yes, many reasons but I won’t explain it

[karmic delta]

List these many reasons

go ahead.

[wide cosmos]

Feed the pack

[karmic delta]

since theres so many of them

[sonic flame]

I doubt rex will be a diet option for Utah, try again

[dawn falcon]

Ffs

Stegos more of a diet option than rex

Why rex of all things

[sonic flame]

Utah packs would target things like Maia and Para, maybe Stego

solo Utahs are going after things like Galli or Dryo

[harsh lark]

Let’s make Rex bulletproof. It’s not fair I could lose my 8 hours of growth to a guy who got lucky and found a good rifle in 2 hours.

[dawn falcon]

Stego should be the max prey a Utah pack can take down.

[harsh lark]

Time based power rankings are crap in the long run

[sonic flame]

Rex is not only a massive fucking risk, but really shouldn't be prey to anything else

[tidal obsidian]

Yeh that seems right

[wide cosmos]

Solo Rex decided to attack a pack, pack needs food, Rex invaded nesting grounds etc

[tidal obsidian]

Yes

[sonic flame]

if a Giga or a Spino or a particularly skilled pack of Utahs kill a rex, it should be for a damn good reason because that fight should probably be in the rex's favor

[fathom obsidian]

i assume galli is going to be fast af

[karmic delta]

the entire point of being a fucking apex is that you have no natural predators
Something being a threat to you does not make it a predator. Hunting is different from fighting

[sonic flame]

Slower than Carno but yeah

[fathom obsidian]

zoooooom

[golden coral]

I could see them target trike/ceratopsids over stego/anky to be honest. Flanker should not go for anti-flank animals or otherwise problematic ones.

[tidal obsidian]

Yep

[tidal obsidian]

Agreed

[lament cloak]

these are the biggest things you are killing as a pack of 8 utahs, if you want to win a decent amount of the time (excluding quetz, you can kill quetz as a single utah)

[hollow canyon]

Giga and Spino should have a far better shot at killing a Rex than any Utah pack

[sonic flame]

Honestly yeah, Trike is a better choice than Stego

[dawn falcon]

Idk I always assume stego would be easier to take down than a trike. Trike just seems more combat specialized than Stego.

[tidal obsidian]

Yep

[harsh lark]

The fight by default is in rexes favor. Utah’s need to have eight people who are all good at the game, grew an hour beforehand and are coordinating together. And even then they can be one shot if they mess up once.

[sonic flame]

Trike is only scary from one direction tho

[karmic delta]

do i need to post the definition of apex predator again for you to understand

[tidal obsidian]

Yep

[sonic flame]

Stop you're basing your head on a brick wall

you're only gonna give yourself a headache

[karmic delta]

I WILL BREAK THIS WALL GOD DAMNIT

[sonic flame]

besides, when has using evidence convinced anyone in this discord

[dawn falcon]

Yeah but it’s got a riot shield, which it can turn around to minimize damage while impaling Utah’s, whereas stego has 1 (hopefully 2) useful attacks which drain its stamina considerably and a giant weak spot.

[fathom obsidian]

is beipi gonna be a threat for utah?

[hollow canyon]

It's in Utah's favour by default - you can literally just turn around and walk away, the Rex can't do that. Also what does "coordinated pack" exactly entail in your opinion?

[golden coral]

It's because of how the attacks work yes. Trike/rex, ceratopsids and the others are attacking in front. Utah pounces flanks. Stego on the other hand covers it's flanks, it's literally anti-flank if done properly. Anky also does similar + has the armor. Shant meanwhile is the "bulk" but not really "weaponized". So a Para or young Shant (since grown ones are massive) would be the easiest prey. Big open flanks, and not as scary as a ceratopsid in attacks.

[sonic flame]

True, but that weakspot can't be exploited by pin/pounce specifically

[tidal obsidian]

He’s correct

[sonic flame]

Beipi gets pinned and dies, the animated movie

[lament cloak]

trike puts all its attack into one single direction, where as stego has this massive, flexible tail that it can swing in all directions with meter long spikes slaped onto them. the only problem is its incredibly clunky atm and it shouldn't be

[dawn falcon]

Like health wise or

[karmic delta]

beipi is what a solo utah should be hunting

[dawn falcon]

Oh wait

[tidal obsidian]

Yep

[dawn falcon]

I thought you said chunky

Never mind

[hollow canyon]

...is there a follow-up to that?

[sonic flame]

Beipi, Ovi, Dryo, things like that

[lament cloak]

trike would have more health

[fathom obsidian]

and some subs

[golden coral]

@dawn falconI phrase it as "stego/anky is safe to approach, but dangerous to engage", because of their very defensive, but otherwise scary coverage. Trike/rex/others are "dangerous to approach, but safe to engage", in the sense of them being capable of attacking on the move, in front, but their flanks/rear is less covered and harder to defend. Of course safe/dangerous is not to be taken literally here.. :p

[sonic flame]

even Acro and the other Pesudo apexes I'd say are too big for a pack to take with any degree of safety

[harsh lark]

Coordinated in that they are all in a voice chat together and know how to cycle pounces + resting together. Utah needs so much shit set up beforehand to even stand a chance I don’t see why it shouldn’t have one lol

[sonic flame]

Para being the exception, I think Utah packs are quite well suited for Hadrosaur hunts specifically

[dawn falcon]

Eh, when it comes to combat, rex is very well suited to have the advantage against a Utah pack, but Utah’s can disengage.

[karmic delta]

the issue there is player skill. and if a utah pack is skilled enough to take down a rex. they should have a chance at it.

Thunder is literally arguing that your average utah pack should be hunting rexes for food

[dawn falcon]

It’s a bipedal which can turn around and chomp down at the exact same time a creature moves into its range. Did you guys see the rexes bite animation? It fucking lunges.

[hollow canyon]

I find it absolutely flabbergasting that anyone would need a voice chat for cycling pounces and resting together.

[lament cloak]

well yeah, you should have a decent shot at taking down a rex with a large (not 6) utah pack, but it should never be in your favor, unless you have like 30 utahs...

[karmic delta]

if a group of utahs is so skilled they can kill a rex. the issue there isnt balance, its player skill. and thats pretty damn good. Thunder is arguing utah should be balanced to fight rexes in packs.

[sonic flame]

Thunder is basically pitching the same arugements given for doubling Deino's bite damage

"Water apex goes brr"

[karmic delta]

thats what Thunder is arguing. That Utah packs should be a natural predator and regular consumer of rexes.

[harsh lark]

Well that’s just a slippery slope. If you’re strong enough to kill something naturally it doubles as food. But the lines get blurred considering hunting and fighting are the same thing against prey that doesn’t run

[sonic flame]

in this case, "Pack hunter goes brrr"

[wide cosmos]

Yes it should have far better chance. Compared to Utah pack killing an apex would take alot more time. And in that time any mistakes a pack member makes would mean an end for utah

[golden coral]

Agreed!

[hollow canyon]

A utah

a single one of them, not all of them, if Rex kills one that doesn't mean it's won

[karmic delta]

personally i consider hunting anything you can regularily and consistently kill with minimal damage. a fight is more equal. Utah packs should HUNT solo mid-tiers. utah packs should FIGHT groups of mid tiers, utahs shouldnt be touching or considering apexes

[harsh lark]

Rando Utah’s who coordinate with local chat will be noticeably worse and more limited than a pack in discord together. They’ll accidentally pounce each other, rest at the same time leaving nobody to pressure, or just go in at bad times. This is basically true in evrima right now

[fathom obsidian]

why is para the exception?

[sonic flame]

A Utah pack has literally no business fighting a rex

[tidal obsidian]

Yeh

[sonic flame]

Just how I see it panning out in terms of it's potential moveset against Utah's approach options

[karmic delta]

a utah pack should only kill a rex if theyre god tier utahs

[sonic flame]

Acro/Theri/Pachyrhino can all pivot and deal fatal damage easily

[lament cloak]

no weapons, you could probably survive a hit from a para tbh

[golden coral]

Pretty much. Hunting and fighting is not the same thing. No matter if the prey run or not.

[sonic flame]

Para, not so much, any fatally damaging attacks to a Utah would likely be clunky to use

[tidal obsidian]

Yeh

[wide cosmos]

Define God tier?

[golden coral]

Big, open flanks, with very little in the way of weapons. Relying mostly on it's bulk to run away, rather than fight. Thus, a "safe" and "easy" prey target in a sense.

[sonic flame]

Literally playing perfectly

[tidal obsidian]

Yes para in the first game was not that good why do we have a idea that they will make it have one attack that can seriously hurt uthar or even 1 shot a uthar

[karmic delta]

the best of the best. lives and breathes utah pvp and has meta gamed it to perfection

[wide cosmos]

In that case it would take down anything with no casualties?

[karmic delta]

like if ur killing rexes as a utah pack, you should be known for it in the community. not just Some dudes playing utah in discord who play a decent utah

[sonic flame]

well, Utah is weak, so for a 7 ton animal, it's not that strange for it to have attacks that can one shot a Utah. The larger issue is how easy it would be to use those attacks against such a small and nimble target

[golden coral]

Generally animals that are less weaponized and more inclined to flee over fight would be good for utahs to hunt, especially since they can hunt over longer distances with their pack, leading the prey into traps, and so on.

[hollow canyon]

I can see that the definition of a "coordinated"/"skilled" pack is not a bar set very high. Going by this logic of Utah having to be so incompetent as to pounce each other mid fight we can make Rex have the bleed resistance of a Deino, the speed of its alt bite without any cost and call that "balanced" because there's a risk that the Rex player will accidentally unplug its computer from the electric socket.

[tidal obsidian]

That is also correct

[sonic flame]

Yeah, but it should be very difficult to reach that level of skill, not just your average player

[golden coral]

And on that note, slower rather than faster prey would obviously be better for the utahs to hunt. A Parasaur over a maia, most likely. Assuming para is slower than maia that is.

[fathom obsidian]

who are you the judge?

[tidal obsidian]

No I’m not just saying it is correct

[wide cosmos]

I think we are going too far into hypothetical

[golden coral]

Assuming that the opposition also lives and breathes their pvp and meta game, then no. Then you're back to difference in stats and circumstances. In which case the utahs would lose. But finding that one rex that is so good, vs your pack, is unlikely. As unlikely as your pack being that good too of course.

[sonic flame]

Not really, it's just that if you want to kill a rex with Utahs, you have to play very well, you can't just be some random dude who's only played Utah once or twice, team up with a few other randoms and then go rex slaying

All other things equal, Rex should beat a pack of Utahs

if the Utahs are better than the rex, they can win

if the rex is better than the Utahs, rex can win

the Utahs should have to be significantly better than the rex

[tidal obsidian]

They havent even released it yet we have no idea how good you have to be to use it we have to be hypothetical

[harsh lark]

Pouncing each other does happen though? You make it sound like a ridiculous occurrence but Utah’s who don’t understand pounce sockets and how many each Dino has can accidentally pounce another latched Utah.

[wide cosmos]

All I'm saying is that coordinated pack of Utahs as described by @harsh lark should be able to take down a solo apex if it's by itself. Should not be easy but be viable

[sonic flame]

define viable

[golden coral]

Assuming the solo apex is not just as good that is.

[sonic flame]

because viable would imply easy enough to be consistent

[karmic delta]

it should not be consistently able to be done

[sonic flame]

killing a rex with a pack of Utahs should be a rare occurrence, even for the best of the packs

[harsh lark]

Sounds fair, I think apexes should just always be solo anyways given how high above the rest they’re being made

[wide cosmos]

They both have equal chance based on player skill levels to win

[tidal obsidian]

There will be probably rules on servers to limit this

[sonic flame]

cause the Utahs can just choose to not fight the rex

[karmic delta]

yes but balance isnt based on rules

[wide cosmos]

Thats a victory for Rex then

[sonic flame]

I disagree that it should be equal, given that the Utahs have the freedom to choose when the fight starts and when the fight ends, the Rex should have a huge advantage in the fight itself

[hollow canyon]

It is a ridiculous occurrence and for that to happen the players have to be absolutely atrocious. I've played Utah-only from the day Evrima released until update 2 came out. I've never pounced a person in my pack and I've never gotten pounced by a person from my pack. For someone to pounce their companion they have to be atrocious at the game. I think the only comparable "missplay" that I can think of in the current game would be Carno using its charge on a fully grown Stego/Deino.

[sonic flame]

Yeah, ideally the rex would have such a massive advantage over the Utahs that the pack would choose to not fight them

[wide cosmos]

It already have advantage by default

[hollow canyon]

It's never happened past that point either.

[sonic flame]

Well yeah, and it should, since it doesn't get a choice

[golden coral]

No. Nesting is a thing, and humans are social animals. I can see pairs, that's fine for all of the large animals, but I don't think anything should be forced solo, we do want people to interact and engage with as players.

[sonic flame]

8 Utahs killing a rex really should be more about the rex playing poorly than the Utahs playing super well

[hollow canyon]

The levels of competence that's being described as a "coordinated" or "skilled" Utah pack is basically a bunch of people who are actually playing with their monitors turned on and using their hands.

[sonic flame]

since the Utahs never have to fight a rex

[fathom obsidian]

what about utah escaping carno, its really hard at the moment

[wide cosmos]

Same as steggo has advantage by default over a packnof utahs. If Utah makes a mistake engaging, it's dead, while steggo can make mistakes and still walk away

[sonic flame]

Inertia broken

[hollow canyon]

That's because the inertia hit the Utah harder than intended

it's not intentional and it will be adjusted in the future

[sonic flame]

So I'm unsure then what you're arguement is here

[golden coral]

Yes.

[sonic flame]

Because now you seem to be agreeing

So do you agree that even for a highly coordinated pack of Utahraptors, a rex should be a vastly challenging bordering on impossible challenge

possible only through immense skill on the part of the Utahraptors

[wide cosmos]

Shouldn't be borderline impossible, that's my argument, hard but not "borderline impossible"

[tidal obsidian]

uthars with overworldly skill are probably the only ones who will win

[sonic flame]

The thing is, if it's not obscenely difficult, then the apexes are at a massive disadvantage because Utahs grow rapidly and are thus easy to replace, while the apexes never get the choice of who to fight and when

the only thing a Rex is out running is other apexes

[wide cosmos]

Utah pack should be considerate when engaging an apex same as Apex should be considerate engaging a large pack

[sonic flame]

Obviously the apex is going to think twice before most fights, the pack may not be a lethal threat on their own, but every bit of damage leaves an apex a little more vulnerable

I don't really think that on their own a pack of Utahs should be killing rexes

[golden coral]

Exactly. And being a wounded apex... well, there's a lot of others that would like you gone, including others of your own kind that might very well see this as the opportunity to take over.

[sonic flame]

but a pack of Utahs is still scary, because it leaves you hurt

a healthy rex might be able to handle 5 Allos

one that just got out of a tussle with a pack of Utahs? Maybe not

[karmic delta]

a large pack of mid tiers

[fathom obsidian]

i can see some spontaneous temp alliance forming just to kill the rex, is that cool?

[tidal obsidian]

alll in all utahs are like at the bottom of the carnivore food chain except for the dinos like compy

[wide cosmos]

Trodoon, velociraptor, herra...

[tidal obsidian]

i said like compy so it includes

[fathom obsidian]

thats far from bottom then

lower side yes

[wide cosmos]

Utahs are large compies are literally size of rats

[tidal obsidian]

yeh

[wide cosmos]

You just want an easy mode apex, I'm confident that's not gonna be a case in this game

[tidal obsidian]

so am i

[karmic delta]

I literally want to kill apexes i just think its stupid for utah to be able to hunt apexes like fucking food

utah shouldnt have its stats tuned for hunting apexes on the fucking regular

[golden coral]

It also depends on what easy mode entails, and at what points in growth/game loop it's easy or hard. And so on. Saying utahs do not hunt apexes on the regular does not mean apexes are suddenly having it easy or anything.

[tidal obsidian]

yeh i guees

[wide cosmos]

Stop saying Utah like we are talking about 1v1

[wide cosmos]

It's not stats but tools, Utah packs have tools to hunt apexes in certain conditions

[tidal obsidian]

yes they do

[karmic delta]

so utah should be able to just hun rexes for fucking food

[wide cosmos]

Those conditions being Apex is alone and in favorable terain to be hunted by a pack

[karmic delta]

so rex sees a utah pack and if they want to fight rex is fucked because "Thats what utah is supposed to do"

[tidal obsidian]

kinda

[wide cosmos]

Not as simple as that. If Rex finds himself alone in the open surrounded by utahs then yes Rex if likely fucked

[karmic delta]

if a utah pack can consistently and regularily hunt rexes why even play rex? fuck if utah packs are that powerful packs of midtiers will rule the entire game and kill everything they want

a rex should never be "fucked" against a bunch of fucking small tiers

[wide cosmos]

Like I said before, there conditions that could favor either one side

[tidal obsidian]

maybe 15 of em and the uthars may win

[karmic delta]

im fucking glad dondi wants it so that utah consistently loses against a rex

[wide cosmos]

I think you'll be disappointed

[sinful cove]

Dondi said that he wants it so that even if a megapack of utahs attacks rex most of them will die at least lol

[hollow canyon]

I don't even know why you're having this discussion - the lead dev literally said what the interaction of Utahs and apexes is supposed to look like

You will be able to kill a Rex with a large Utah pack but you will likely lose most of the members of your pack

[karmic delta]

Dondi has talked about this exact topic before and has said that even in a pack of 20 that utahs should lose most of their people to bring it down. it should be POSSIBLE if they have so many people but it should not be consistent so much that REX. THE APEX OF THE FUCKING ECOSYSTEM HAS NATURAL PREDATORS

[hollow canyon]

it's as simple as that

Even the current Utah vs Stego match up is honestly better than that

[wide cosmos]

Well see when it's actually in game

[hollow canyon]

You lose like 3-4 Utahs against a Stego while taking it down

It's probably possible to do it with smaller casualties but I haven't seen it done so far

[wide cosmos]

Just hope I'm not gonna see servers with 90% rexes running around because few things can kill them

[hollow canyon]

Because seeing half a server play Utah is all that much better