balance-feedback-discussion

[tulip star]

So obv making juvies more fun isn’t one of their priorities

[golden coral]

Well, I could see "juvie only" areas, baby fight club style and so on. And no, not all of them will get something, but we can damn well try I think!

[gentle vault]

I remember seeing a Thesis video about how to do exactly that. Why not give the Juveniles, like the adults, a specific perk for that stage that betters their chance of survival through some means. Or maybe a specific requirement or food for their development. Just an idea.

[golden coral]

At least I'd rather start there than just work with stats to make juvie/sub fun, give environment and playables around that suit the growth stage, and mechanics if possible, and so on

[harsh lark]

Seems a bit roundabout when standard procedure is usually to minimize the most boring part of a game anyways.

[golden coral]

@tulip starBecause rex is one of those that goes from carno-speed juvie, to bulky fat adult. Meaning that the juvie is a very different animal than the adult. Just going "x strong as adult" would not make a juvie rex.

[golden coral]

Well, the goal is to not make it boring at all, but as interactive, demanding, and interesting as being an adult

Maybe SOP in this case is not the best choice

[tulip star]

Well they already said that rex would be broken and not be apart of the main game didnt they?

[golden coral]

No one ever said we've found the perfect way to do something so xD

[golden coral]

Say what now?

[harsh lark]

Also rex is just a very big exception, most dinos in this game won't have juvies that differ much from adults except for scale.

[dawn falcon]

Nothing set in stone though

That may change when we actually get apexes

[tulip star]

I’m p sure the plan of evirma was to have no apexes right?

[golden coral]

Last I heard it's more so that we'll start with rex ai

And then get it as playable

I sincerely doubt we're not getting rex as playable

[tulip star]

No I mean

U can play as rex

But not the main game

[dawn falcon]

He means not in the gamemode

[tulip star]

^

[golden coral]

Well... what Evrima is..

[dawn falcon]

Called EVRIMA

[golden coral]

Honestly, I don't know at this point :p

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

Things will change no doubt

[tulip star]

Evirma I think stego was going to be the biggest

[golden coral]

So many different .. claims.. from a certain dev to be sure I think

[dawn falcon]

We’ll just have to see what the true direction will be

But yeah

[golden coral]

It went from "recode" to "new game" to "part/phase of development" to "gamemode"

[tulip star]

Yeah I see that

[golden coral]

So.. honestly, I don't think we know what Evrima is as of now :p

And it can still most likely change again too

[tulip star]

I thought it was just an update tbh

When they announced it that’s what it was wasn’t it

[golden coral]

Yeah.. things have changed. So you could be right, or you could be wrong, in what will happen to rex or any other playable. And stego was meant as AI, so for all we know, it was never meant to be a playable in Evrima either.

It just happened that way because reasons. But if AI had worked, maybe stego would be so til this very day.

[tulip star]

I still hate how it’s in the game rn

Causes so many problems

I liked the idea of apexes being AI only

Then u don’t have to worry so much about fuckin stegos ruling the server

Or x or y

[spare badger]

Stegos aren't even apexes
I think anyway

[tulip star]

They r

[spare badger]

And I do agree
Stego shouldn't have been put in before

[golden coral]

But but.. my rex/giga/spino or trike, or even anky/stego. xD

[spare badger]

They feel more like pseudos to me
But if u disagree that's fine

[dawn falcon]

Weight = HP is not a bad thing as long as manipulators, multipliers, and locational damage is incorporated.
A Utah could have more resistance to withstand certain attacks. Maybe they could enter the complex route and make different resistance multipliers for different things.
Now, what if anky was added? Will weight not be HP? And if so, what would the HP be that wouldn’t cause it to be unbalanced? If weight was HP, let’s use 8 tonnes as an example. If anky is 8 tons, that means it’s got 8000 Hp. If stego can obliterate a Deino in 4-5 shots, whos to say it wouldn’t be the same for anky? That’s where resistance modifiers come in to play. Maybe anky will have a 5x resistance multiplier to help protect itself? If anky is 8 tons, and stego deals let’s say 2000 damage per hit, a 5x multiplier means stego will only deal 1000 damage per hit to an anky.

[tulip star]

Pseudos I don’t know what that is

[tulip star]

Good suffer

[spare badger]

Like
Acro
Under apex
But above things like allo

[tulip star]

I don’t see them as pseudo apex

[spare badger]

But it doesn't really matter

[golden coral]

@tulip starI would be fine with a "no apex" game mode, much as I would miss my stego, kentro is a stegosaurian so I'm good. And herrera/carno are cool as well, so I can do without acro if it doesn't make the cut. :p

[harsh lark]

Acro is just a large dino though

[tulip star]

It’s either u r apex or u aren’t

[dawn falcon]

Apexes should be highly skill based to grow. Much like Deino is currently

[golden coral]

It depends a bit on what they do with acro

But I'd be fine with no apexes, but most others will not ^^

[tulip star]

P sure that’s what evirma was supposed to be

[dawn falcon]

Enough hours to discourage players, harder to grow, hard diet path to follow, etc

[spare badger]

They should have put in kentro first

[tulip star]

Deino isn’t skill based at all

Deino is not skill based to grow

[dawn falcon]

Deino is highly skill based rn

There’s no fish

[tulip star]

Not it ain’t

There is

There all stacked in the rivers no one goes in

[dawn falcon]

Not from what a bunch of players have mentioned

[tulip star]

I lived to adult on fish on na1

[golden coral]

Possibly, but then people would complain ever so much, and you know it. Just because you or I would be fine with it, does not mean most would. Too many that wants to be a rex or so on. And would not be as happy with being alberto or whatever.

[dawn falcon]

They’re saying there’s barely any fish to begin with

And so they have to venture out where cannibals could be

[tulip star]

That’s why there’s going to be a game mode for them

[golden coral]

Is there still fish around? I've also seen a lot of complaints about no fish

[tulip star]

But it’s hard to balance apexes

There are less yes

But not enough to make a big deal out of it

[golden coral]

I know, but then people complains about having to choose a specific game mode. You get the idea anyway. I'd be fine with it, as long as I get my kentro, and herrera. So it's others you'd need to convince :p

[tulip star]

Also the only reason they don’t get a lot of food from fish anymore is Bc they nerfed the growth u have to be to swallow

The fish

Once u can swallow fish ur fine

U get so much food

Compared to holding e

[spare badger]

I hope
That diets will make apex growth more skill oriented
Rather than bush simulator number 5

[tulip star]

I literally set a timer for an hour and twenty and go fully afk as deino

That’s how I grow it

And when I get back I’m on 15% food

Deino has to be the easiest thing to grow actually

[golden coral]

Technically herbis are easier, but deino was very easy at least before patch

[tulip star]

Literally safe from everything in the water besides other deinos but there completely avoidable if u know where to go

Theyre*

[harsh lark]

I don't think you will ever design a growth/diet life cycle that will make apexes difficulty to grow proportionate to their planned adult strength.

[tulip star]

I honestly think diet should change with growth too

A juvies diet shouldn’t be the same as adult

[dawn falcon]

So a dynamic dietary path?

[tulip star]

Yes

[golden coral]

Yes

Sounds good to me

[dawn falcon]

That would be amazing honestly

[tulip star]

As the lifestyles of different dinos r completely different

Let’s take deino for example

[golden coral]

Small stegos should eat food in a different, maybe more "sheltered" biome, and go out on plains when they're big subs/young adults

[tulip star]

It’s juvie could rely on fish

And partial sub adult

[golden coral]

Small stegos = forest, sub stegos = treelines, adult stegos = plains

[tulip star]

But once ur sub u start to go for actual creatures

[spare badger]

They said something like that but less complex
It was something like
Well when your a baby you can eat little rabbits but when your an adult rabbits won't be enough food so you need to move on

[tulip star]

And once ur full adult fish shouldn’t really give u any diet

[tulip star]

I think it would be better if it just changed imo

[golden coral]

Also trike competing with the other ceratopsids at different growth stages please!

[tulip star]

It would make the gameplay loop more fun

[spare badger]

Me too

[tulip star]

And have differing gameplay

For each stage of life

I don’t think it could be that hard to code

[spare badger]

It'll be like that
But not enforced ig?

[tulip star]

You wouldn’t necessarily have to follow growth percent

More so just what model u r

[spare badger]

Idk
I just want diets and pachy
Then I'll actually play the game more

Cause all I can do now is sit in a bush, grow a teno, then wander around centre murdering any carnos that challenge me

[tacit oriole]

I wonder how long it will take people to get past this racial hatred of utah

Seems some people won't be happy until they are totally removed

[ocean wagon]

if utah gets nerfed any more then it might as well be removed from the game

[gentle vault]

Fixed my response. I hope someone reads it again. Probably not.

[ocean wagon]

woah there

stegos are NOT deinos to go prey

if you catch a juvi/sub stego lacking then sure, but adult stegos are a no go for deinos

[gentle vault]

At this point they are. A predators mentality is to secure LARGE prey instead of eating tiny, multiple prey that give you next to nothing.

[ocean wagon]

mid/small teir dinos are deinos prey range

if you arent able to grab something as a deino, it isnt in your prey range

[gentle vault]

As I said, they're too infrequent at the moment. Then again, most of the servers are empty because of the bugs.

[ocean wagon]

besides im pretty sure the devs stated multiple times that fish arent deinos main source of food

[gentle vault]

Did they state that Deinos are supposed to cannibalize eachother?

[ocean wagon]

yes

[stark knoll]

yep

[gentle vault]

Mm.

[ocean wagon]

literally

its a cannibal dino

well

reptile

[gentle vault]

I can understand that, it has cut down the populations and stabilized the pred and prey ratio. But my point still stands with how much meat you get from another Deino.

It's not enough.

Eating a full grown Deino as a full grown only gives you 20-30 percent.

For an animal that big, it should give you more, right?

[ocean wagon]

yes

but fish are not meant to fill you

fish for deino is the same thing as what compy is for utah

[gentle vault]

Okay, then that is my main point. Deino bodies should give you more food

[ocean wagon]

right, i only commented on stego being deinos to go meal

[gentle vault]

To be fair, it's suicide half the time to go against a stego. I've been in and seen plenty of fights and it just isn't worth going after them.

[frosty heron]

The food giveaway nerf its a bit overtuned all across the board for what I've seen

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

[frosty heron]

If you eat your own weight in food at very least you should refill

[dawn falcon]

I wish it was incorporated into your own weight. Meaning a 1 ton creature would give you 1 tons of meat. But you’d also need to eat your own body weight

Though

Don’t know how bushes would be given weight afaik

Actually I’d rather have bodies be about half the weight

It feels.. better? That way

[sinful cove]

Bodies should be split into meat, organs and bone values if diets involve that

[dawn falcon]

Yeah honestly

[sinful cove]

So something that only eats meat or organs would get less than something that eats organs and meat, and those would get less than one who eats it all

Dinos should need maybe 20% of their weight to be filled, or varying by species

[dawn falcon]

1 ton of meat but that being the OVERALL amount of edible components. A quarter of it could be flesh, another quarter being organs, etc.

[frosty heron]

That's something we won't see until Gore update far in the roadmap

[sinful cove]

Probably yeah

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

[sinful cove]

Id also maybe say some plants should be partitioned in similar ways. The fruit bushes for example, some dinos may only eat the berries, some may eat the whole bush, so the values would subtract separately

[gentle vault]

You know what would be nice? Have a basking mechanic for the Deino that slows your hunger time while you do so. Realistically, Crocodiles and Gators can last long periods of time with little food, as well as other reptiles because they use less energy via bathing in the sun.

At the same time you could have an Overheat debuff if you do this for too long. Your thirst could drain quickly and you could grow lethargic from the heat.

[sinful cove]

As long as there arent any safespaces for them to bask in idk it might not be bad

[spare badger]

Yea
They'd be out in the open and targets for an ambush
Once creatures that can actually kill deino are in the game

[golden coral]

Wasn't it more that if you eat one, you also destroy the other.

[sinful cove]

Right now it is

[golden coral]

@gentle vaultBasking as a mechanic woud be cool. I think we're getting temperature, so that could tie into it.

No, I meant with diets. Two herbis want the same bush, for different parts

But they can't both eat it, if one eats, it destroys all of it, so the other can get nothing

[sinful cove]

But like a hypsi could maybe pick the berries off a bush and leave the rest for something that eats the leaves in the future

I dont think it would make sense for something that eats only the berries ti destroy the whole thing

[stark knoll]

they mean that if something eats the roots of a plant, itll likely dig and destroy the rest of the plant when trying to reach them

[sinful cove]

A carni who only eats meat isnt going to pulverize the skeleton so it isnt edible to a scavenger or rex or something

[stark knoll]

and if something eats the stems, then the flowers would fall off, etc

[golden coral]

Yeah that. Might apply to other combos too for all I know

[stark knoll]

i hope theres lots of little complexities and interactions like that

[sinful cove]

If something eats roots it will probably be from a tuber plant that is only usable for the root, if it eats the whole thing including the roots obviously it will be spent

[golden coral]

No, they've said there will be a conflict

So two herbis can't get the same food because eating their own part will ruin the whole

[gentle vault]

I just thought of something else. Don't certain herbivores, if there isn't a lot of plants in the area gum on bones for phosphorus and calcium? That could be an interesting mechanic. Like when gore is stripped to bone, a herbivore could interact with it and chew on the bones.

[sinful cove]

Eating berries off a bush shouldnt destroy the whole bush thats just silly

Conflict can exist without it being super artificial

Many herbis will still eat the entirety of their preferred plants and roots, others can prefer parts of plants without destroying the entire node. Making a dryo eat some berries and the entire bush gets hakaid just looks bad

Or a pchy knocks some fruit down and suddenly a cama cant eat leaves from that tree?

Seems super artificial

[golden coral]

I'm sure there can be both options, some things do conflict, others do not

[tacit oriole]

Are the bushes meant to be berry bushes ? When I looked closely looked more like flowers or something

[sinful cove]

They just look like flat texture berries to me, i hope that particular asset is entirely replaced tbh

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, it's a bit silly how one particular arbitrary bush is edible while everything else isn't

Given that all the current static assets are streamed from the server (which is a major cause of the frame drops you get moving around, btw) I suspect more of them will be edible in U4

There's no other reason for them not to be clustered static assets

Or the other explanation is all the trees/bushes/etc are being live procedurally generated by a UE4 plugin

Which would make a lot of sense, and also be a big cause of fps issues for low end machines

I'd be pretty disappointed if that was the case, though

[tulip star]

@dawn falcon I like the idea with growth but not so much the idea with hp and damage resistance

seems like it would be solved with just having hp back and having to avoid so many damage modifiers that can be tricky to keep track of and shit

[tacit oriole]

"HP not equal to health is too complicated. Instead let's have more hidden multipliers and modifiers"

It's staggering for me just how much important data is hidden from users, and most people don't realize

Like carnos thinking they can bleed stegos by nibbling on their tail

We need more transparency, not less

[toxic crypt]

@worldly venture Deino's alt bite was undeniably overpowered and dryo was a galli clone. They've both now been improved, especially dryo.

[vagrant mural]

Dryo? Improved? You’re joking right?

[toxic crypt]

No. I'm a dryo main, and I personally am very glad it's actually a dryo again and not a worse galli

[vagrant mural]

The speed nerf was necessary, the biteforce I didn’t see as a major issue but it’s fine, but the goddam inertia just makes Dryo feel like legacy carno at times

[toxic crypt]

I've also played with other dryo players and they agree

[vagrant mural]

Like I overall agree with the balance changes, but to say it’s not mini Galli anymore when it didn’t really get any identity changing nerfs kinda bugs me

[toxic crypt]

the speed nerf changed it back into a juke-dependent creature

[vagrant mural]

Eh

Considering it can just see Utah coming 90% of the time it just runs away and maybe occasionally dodges it

[toxic crypt]

that's the utah's problem for not being sneaky

[dawn falcon]

Inertia wasn’t adjusted for every Dino

So everything has the same inertia

[tacit oriole]

Utah should have a slight speed advantage over dryo imo

Or dryo should have less sprint time than Utah

I'd like to see the dodge fixed and speed dropped to 40.5, same as teno

Maybe a little higher

Possibly Stam cost of jump reduced

[ocean wagon]

Utah should be faster but dryo should be able to out juke a utah

[stark knoll]

@versed rune Stego currently has a higher headshot multiplier than all other dinos, and locational resistances have been hinted at as well

[versed rune]

wait for real???? oh my god it feels like it takes almost no extra damage from headshots this patch

[stark knoll]

unless its bugged then it should, yup

[tacit oriole]

No need for hints, I've confirmed they exist haha

I've just been to distracted with bleed stuff and trying to make Utah work to do much testing with straight locational

Can confirm that most (if not all) dinos have 5 hitboxes - head, body, legs, tail, and tailtip

Head is usually 1.5x (apart from stego), tailtip is usually 0.01x (0x for bleed), tail 0.6x legs 0.75x, at least for teno

Tail is most of the tail length, tailtip is about the last 15% or so, for stego it's the thago, for Utah it's the bit with solid rings on male patterns

[tacit oriole]

If anyone's curious, carno can eat 1875 kg of food in a single sitting (empty to full), and it takes 2 minutes to eat

with a 45 min food timer, that's just shy of 42 kg/min you need to feed one

[tacit oriole]

Well, except there's something very weird going on with food. So a full carno can polish off another full carno (1800kg) with a couple of percent to spare

But a 55kg baby carno gives 15.2% food, which if you calculate it out means 360kg worth of baby carno to full

Also you get about 3x the food from a body if you can pick it up and swallow it whole instead of eating it from the ground

[primal dove]

yea i´ve noticed that too

[tacit oriole]

Well, bleed is a lot more complicated than I expected

Missing stamina and missing health both increases your bleed rate AND increases the time to heal

low food and low water both increase the time to heal as well

[tacit oriole]

If you are a bit low on all four a single utah pounce can easily kill you if you can't sit down

Well, that explains the delta between testing and what some people are experiencing in-game

[wild cove]

Could be ya

If a bunch of utahs are pouncing a stego with full hunger, thirst, stamina, and health, its gonna be a lot tankier than a stego with no stam, starving, dehydrated, etc

Which makes sense

And if that's the case, depending on how hard it is to find food on the new diet system, you might have starving stegos sprinting for food and/or water making them easier to hunt

Among other dinos

[tacit oriole]

low food/stam/thirst/health basically triples the bleed

[primal dove]

does it already do that or is that a future idea?

[wild cove]

I think it already does that

[worldly venture]

I know, that's what I said

???????

And you used the squint react too, did...you not read my post? I'm an confuse

[ocean wagon]

moving the balancing convo from out of general feedback

my stance on how it should be played is that when I think of utah I think of an African wild dog. Utah is a fast and nimble hunter who can use it impressive jump, speed, and agility to dodge/escape larger threats. Utah should have 3 general hunting tactics it should deploy.

1. Smaller things- prey items that's typically dont require much skill to catch and can normally only feed one or two adult utahs. Utah should be an ambush predator that runs down its prey biting at it until it dies. Hence the smaller bite force because utah only really uses its mouth to catch smaller things so it wouldn't need a giant bite force.
2. Prey items around utahs size/ medium size range- ill just use pachy and dryo for this example. Dryo, being somewhat comparable to utahs size, can be hunted via bites(which has a chance for it to escape)or a successful ambush pounce to(which you have a chance of missing and the dryo getting away. Pachy while being in utahs size class, should typically be hunted using a combination of an ambush pounce and bites, while Utah having the superior ability to dodge out a pachys lethal headbutt.
   3.larger game(honeslty anything bigger than a solo utah)- utah should be in packs taking turns resting and wasting their targets stamina and using their agility to dodge lethal attacks. Utahs should allow being utahs their pounce as their main attack weapon to slowly bleed out their victims.

How i think utah should he balanced in current game to better fit the devs view of utah, carnivores in general need to have a slower food drain rate to that of herbivores. Carnivores in real life (especially pack hunters who take down big game) don't have to eat that often. Especially utah who is being pushed to be an attrition pack hunter should also have the hunger drain to actually pull of an attrition hunt. Currently utah is too slow to pull off correct agility maneuvers, so I'd say up their agility so more. And if utah will mainly be relying on its pounce for larger game(which let's be honest most herbivores mains will play mid tier-apex dinos) missing a pounce should not be as lethal. What im talking about is the pounce stun you get when you miss. I think the recovery time should be based off how much stamina you have. If you have full stam, you should have a faster reaction time to get out of the stun lock. But if you have little to no stam, your utah should be sluggish getting out of that missed pounce animation. Also me personally im voting for utah to be an endurance hunter im packs, so a little bit of a stam buff would be very appreciated. I think the bleed in current game is fine, because enough can bleed out smaller things your size very fast and you should need more utahs to bleed out bigger dinos.

[thin mantle]

Pretty much everything in this is correct, the only thing I would add is for utahs to be able to drive off carnos when the carnos are outnumbered. Currently attrition hunts don’t go over well because carnos will just come curbstomp the utahs while they are in a hunt, and seeing as how carnos are just so much better than utahs in every way and can’t really be combated without purposeful sacrificing multiple utahs. An attrition Hunter needs a way to prevent other more powerful predators from ruining the hunt. If a hunt is meant to be won over time utilizing bleed and strategical pouncing that makes it very easy for stronger predators to take advantage of the engagement. Which really sucks, because if a hunt is about to be finished or is even halfway complete and gets interrupted or ended by carnos, the remaining utahs will almost certainly die of starvation.

[ocean wagon]

Yeah imo the carno vs utah pack match up needs to be reworked

If you want me to be honest

They should've made carno have the same bite speed it did in legacy

If you think about what carno is and how it hunts, it doesn't need a spammable bite

Carnos entire gig is "ambush, run fast, knock over unsuspecting victims to deliver a deadly bite to them"

Current carno is literally just a faster legacy Cerato

And my mind isn't changing on that

It having the same bite speed in legacy, and its ALT bite speed being the same speed as its current ervima left click bite seems good to me

[thin mantle]

Actually I don't think bite speed is what would fix this. Because they're trying to make animations dictate the speed of actions instead of a timer between movements. I agree with that philosophy because it prevents physical limitations from feeling or being arbitrary. And since carno is supposed to be hunting small/fast moving targets it makes the least sense for it to have a slow bite speed. Although I think you could change the entire paradigm by giving utah a small damage buff, only enough to give it the ability to pressure carnos away from their hunts instead of utilizing a damage mechanic that takes time to be effective. Carnos can kill utahs too fast for bleed to be relied upon for self defense. Not too much damage to return utah to it's former meta of biting over pouncing tho, it just needs that edge in numbers. Oh and removing inertia from the game would also fix almost all the balance issues that we currently have with utah.

[hallow spire]

@barren oracle what do u mean by the pounces lock on?

[barren oracle]

edited it lol

[hallow spire]

oh lol

[barren oracle]

ever pounced a carno charging you head on tho?

you get on its side jump off and run

[sinful cove]

I hope they remove socketing or at least add more attachment points so a utah who jumps onto the face of an allo can get chomped on instead of the game handholding them and teleporting them to the side

[gentle vault]

I can't shorten my message any longer but it's still too long. Anything I can do to help this?

[barren oracle]

split it in two

and ask someone to post part 2

[gentle vault]

Okay

Shortened it

There might be gaps in there but I tried.

[dim radish]

I dislike the deino bask idea

Encourages afk

[sinful cove]

Actual bsking and non-logout sleeping could be added to speed up heal times and help bypass the health caps but afk shouldn’t be incentivized with decreased resource drain at all

[frosty heron]

If basking is made in some sort of way you need to be precisaly on "basking spots" and this spots are exposed enought to be vulnerable the time you spent there I don't see a problem with it

[ocean wagon]

I was actually doing some testing with this, you can still bite the Utah’s that pounce your face

[frosty heron]

Because basking inside a cave to accelerate heal times could be broken Lol

[tall bronze]

They talked about Deino getting basking at some point where it'd actually be based on sunlight. So being in shade wouldn't do anything.

[sinful cove]

Yeah if we got underground caves with air pockets and deinos could bask in there that would be so busted lol

If they could only bask on rocks in the sun or something somehow it could maybe not be abusable

[frosty heron]

If we gonna make pounce locational by precision, remove the missed pounce stun then, otherwise pounce will be harder to use than a sniper rifle with 1 bullet and 10 seconds reload time

[sinful cove]

I mean it would just make you latch on ti the region you pounced

[frosty heron]

There's certain creatures where going for "precision pounces" could be a very high requirement, like a small Tenonto or Carno

[sinful cove]

Pounce stun could be reduced if that got in, wouldnt be hard to still hit large dinos like para with it at all

Small dinos like dryo wouldnt be affected since you know, theyre small

[frosty heron]

Yeah Stego is not an issue to land the pounce but smaller creatures could be a real problem

[sinful cove]

So locational pounce would be useless on smalls

It would all be the same for them, this would just involve large animals

[frosty heron]

I also see a lot of netcode issues with making Utah pounce requiring so much precision

[sinful cove]

If we still have shitloads if desync yeah theyd have to fix that again

Would he a disaster

In a theoretical scenario where desync doesnt demolish advanced combat mechanics it would be cool

[ocean wagon]

And honestly? Locational bleed damage for pounce wouldn’t make that much sense, if a Utah pounces a paras body vs a paras tail, it should still bleed the same amount. Like the Utah is still making the same size hole in you

[frosty heron]

Could be, but that also will make Utah way harder to use than already is, that's why I would ask to remove the pounce stun and if you miss the pounce take out big portion of your stamina to prevent spamming

[ocean wagon]

Like if someone slices your arm vs your leg, you’re still going to bleed the same

[sinful cove]

Locational bleed still makes sense, also different affects for locationak fracture

[ocean wagon]

The only area I can see making a huge difference is if the Utah pounces somethings neck

[sinful cove]

Arms and legs are both limbs though, a tail usually wont bleed as much as gut slash

Arms and legs require more bloodflow than a tail only used as a rudder

[ocean wagon]

Why not? (I’m just going to keep using para for simplicity) paras tail is still considerably big

[sinful cove]

The base of the tail yeah but the middle and end arent going to bleed a whole lot especially compared to getting your thigh shredded

The middle and end of the tail is something you would want to fracture, not waste effort on bleeding

[ocean wagon]

Well yeah, I’m going off the base of the tail. I don’t really see Utah’s being able to pounce the end of their tail. They wouldn’t be able to hold on with the para swinging around in distress

[sinful cove]

And utah doesnt seem like the best fracturing type

The base of the tail still has a lot of dense tissue attachment and would probably bleed about as much as the thigh

The rest would take less

[ocean wagon]

Right

I don’t think the mid/end of the tail should be pounceable

[sinful cove]

It should be grabbable but if you try to pounce it you should just be throwing yourself into the dirt pretty much

[ocean wagon]

Unless half of the Utah’s body is just floating (like how their bodies just float under deino)

[ocean wagon]

Wdym mean grabbable?

Is them pouncing not the same as them grabbing on?

[sinful cove]

Pouncing this part would be useless. Grabbing/biting it as a large dino could fracture it

Tail fracture could reduce agility

Grabs like deino lunge, allo grapple perhaps, rex grab if its still planned

[ocean wagon]

Oh oh lmfao

I thought you were talking about Utah grabbing it

And I was hella confused

But yeah allo and Rex could def grab a paras tail

[sinful cove]

If utah tried to grab a para tail it would probably go something like

https://tenor.com/view/mop-cat-funny-gif-3535770

[ocean wagon]

LOL

I mean that’s currently Utah pouncing anything rn

Let’s be real

[sinful cove]

maybe lol

[tacit oriole]

Already does it.

[tacit oriole]

African Wild Dog is actually the perfect analogy. They love to carry on and 1 call spam just like Utah too haha

[tacit oriole]

The big issue with Carno vs Utah is the combine global speed reduction and Utah turnspeed reduction makes it too easy for a carno to tailride a Utah. Secondarily, it's hard for Utah to get Carno low on Stam to make bleeds properly threatening

Plus all the hard pounce counters

I'd like to see utahs able to (at the cost of Stam) use Space to to an extended jump when dismounting, preferably with some ability to aim your dismount direction so you can get aimed at trees

[primal dove]

why should it cost stam tho? you lose more using ur "special ability" and might even die while doing so. Also the problem is not that u dont get too far it´s that u are too slow dismounting which is the main reason why utahs can still get impaled while dismounting

[tacit oriole]

Normal dismount doesn't cost Stam, I'm talking about a special move

So for an additional 6% stam, same as normal jump, you can get that extra distance to be safer

[primal dove]

ik but you´ll have to use it in combination with ur special ability which sucks if u just can buff the speed of the dismount so it gets nearly impossible to get spiked while dismounting

[tacit oriole]

Just being able to aim your dismount would be a pretty big change tbh

[primal dove]

@modest carbon the problem with utahs alt bite is that it doesnt inflict more bleed damage and you lose momentum while performing it. The 3rd attack of the utah should be a claw attack which can be used while running without losing momentum and inflicts more bleed damage.

Just a claw swipe which tears up flesh but doesnt deal much damage at all

[tacit oriole]

This is not correct, slash inflicts significantly more bleed than bite - in fact against large body targets bite doesn't bleed at all

[primal dove]

you still lose the momentum tho

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, that bit sucks

[primal dove]

the alt bite should just be against like sub adults,juvis or ankle biters

[tacit oriole]

You can quick turn with it and go back and forth through a target to bait an attack, but slash is only really useful for preventing regen on a tree camper

But yeah the bleed from slash is pretty insignificant compared to a good pounce

e.g. against a full everything teno standing, full pounce is about 42% bleed and slash is 2.3%

[sinful cove]

The old health system wasn’t that great because you had scrawny little raptors with a tank ratio of hp and dryo seemed to have a similar ratio too. Health should still be weight based for the most part with some exceptions of armoured dinosaurs

[tulip star]

Keep in mind they were going to give Utah a 10% health nerf anyways

[sinful cove]

I thought utah hp would have heen fine reduced to 750, it is lower than that now but i think it only needs better agility and not have the hp nerf reverted

[tulip star]

Also sorry if I’m late to replying to anything I can really reply quickly as of right now

[tacit oriole]

10% would of been a lot less painful than 55% lol

[sinful cove]

I was thinkin a 25% nerf lol

[tulip star]

Hence why I want it reverted too

Nah

10% is a lot

Especially with the carno alt bite buff too

[tacit oriole]

The analogy between Utah and African Wild Dogs is actually really good

[sinful cove]

As long as utah has the mobility avoid hits he is fine with the paper bag health

He just needs more agility, his agility was nerfed

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

It doesn’t really matter if you have low hp

When

You can just dodge attacks

Think troodon

[tacit oriole]

Wild Dogs can't really fight other predators unless they are weakened already (same as Utah), and rely on coursing, ambushing, and chasing prey into waiting pack members

[sinful cove]

He should be a very high risk hunter, rely on your mobility, if you make a mistake then RIP your grow time isnt that long anyway

[tulip star]

I mean with 10% less hp would have made it paper bag

[sinful cove]

Wild dogs and hyenas are very good at wearing down animals while taking minimal damage themselves

[dawn falcon]

Utah had 1000 HP before weight = HP was a thing.

[sinful cove]

Because they dint wrestle like lions

[dawn falcon]

Guess what

Stego had only 4000

[tacit oriole]

Deino had 6k

[dawn falcon]

A half ton carnivore had 1000 HP while a 6 ton herbivore had 4 times that.

[tulip star]

Again look at my suggestion

[dawn falcon]

That’s unbalanced imo

[dawn falcon]

Already did. Just stating things that were a problem

[tacit oriole]

Yes, but it worked

[golden coral]

Stego already has increased head multiplier. If you increased both health and the multiplier, then there's no point in the health buff.

[dawn falcon]

^

It’s just

[golden coral]

The point is that it should take more headshots than it did before, since before it was way too easy

[tacit oriole]

Stego needed a buff but not this hard

[dawn falcon]

The damage that counts really

[tulip star]

Stego had an increase with the head multiplier?

[sinful cove]

900hp for a 400something kg bone bag of agility is wack too

[tulip star]

I can’t tell

[tacit oriole]

Good stegos don't let their head get hit anyway

[dawn falcon]

I don’t think so?

[golden coral]

@tulip starYes, everyone else have 1.5, stego has 2

[dawn falcon]

But

[tulip star]

It takes carno 16 headshots where imo it should be like 9-10

[dawn falcon]

Stego has a 2x multiplier while everything else is 1.6

1.5*

So

[tacit oriole]

Plus not only did stego get a HP buff but everything else (except teno) got a major damage nerf

[tulip star]

^^

[dawn falcon]

Stego really did need a health buff to 6K.
Just idk why everything else got nerfed

[tacit oriole]

The only reason stegos aren't invincible right now is there's so many noob ones

[tulip star]

Because weight = health

[dawn falcon]

Utah’s pounce bleed bug needs to be fixed

[tulip star]

Can’t have the same bite force with the new health

It would fuck up the balance hard core

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

But

[tacit oriole]

Weight = HP = blood = bite damage was the logic applied

[raw sparrow]

cause we know balance right?

[tulip star]

?

[dawn falcon]

Huh

[tacit oriole]

This crude effort at realism has destroyed gameplay, is the issue

[harsh lark]

Stego having a lot of hp but also a higher HP multiplier doesn't neutralize the changes, it puts a greater focus on headshots and minimizes bodyshots.

[tulip star]

^

[golden coral]

Which is dumb when the utahs should not go for headshots at all

[dawn falcon]

^

[golden coral]

And the carno should not be hunting stegos at all, so there is that

[dawn falcon]

^

[golden coral]

You're just putting stego back to be hunted by things, and in ways, it shouldn't

[tulip star]

But carno is all we have currently

[dawn falcon]

Which is honestly where we get to the problem of STEGO SHOULDNT BE A THING IN THE CURRENT ROSTER

[tulip star]

Excuse me?

[tacit oriole]

Realism is a lofty goal but let me ask, which is a more popular, more fun game - Battlefield 5 or ARMA3?

[tulip star]

You want

[harsh lark]

lol, this herbivore should just not be attacked, screw high risk high reward plays, don't even try. No fun allowed

[tulip star]

One of the 6 or whatever creatures we have

To be unhuntable?

[golden coral]

Right, 5+ utahs can hunt, and that's not good enough for you

[dawn falcon]

Utahs and a pair of deinos should be the only things able to hunt it

[tulip star]

I’m not saying carno ideally would hunt it

It would be hard

[golden coral]

It is

[tacit oriole]

Utahs damage output is actually decent IF you can find weakened targets

[golden coral]

You can still hunt a stego

[dawn falcon]

You should never let a small game hunter be able to take it on. That turns it into a brawler

Which

Is where we get to problem of again, stego being in the current roster of small

Smalls

[golden coral]

A carno pack can still hunt a stego most likely

[tacit oriole]

We only have 8 dinos. Perfect niche twirling is not possible atm.

[harsh lark]

No it doesn't, that just adds versatility to gameplay instead of shoehorning everyone into being a one trick pony to compensate for a bloated roster of 56 playables.

[tulip star]

Stego should def be huntable by the current roster

It’s not fun if it is t

Isnt*

[tacit oriole]

8 dinos, including 4 that Utah will never get an opportunity to hunt

[dawn falcon]

Being huntable by only 2 creatures of the roster is perfectly fine.

[harsh lark]

Deino and Ptera are already essentially unhuntable when they get into their element, why do we need to add even more dinos to that list.

[golden coral]

Bascially. Even a full carno pack should only try for a stego if desperate. A utah pack, meaning at least 5+, can give it a try and succeed with or without casualties, depending on numbers and how the encounter goes and so on. This does not make the stego unhuntable, simple as that.

[dawn falcon]

Stego is too slow to truly fuck with the roster anyways.

So

[tacit oriole]

Land battles are Utah, carno, stego, teno. Unless you want to soft remove another one, they need to be all able to compete

[dawn falcon]

Which is where Pachy comes in

[golden coral]

Versatility is only good so far. Niche is better, that is the point of the roster.

[dawn falcon]

Pachy is another combat herbivore

[tulip star]

^^

[tacit oriole]

Great, so balance around pachy when pachy is released, not 3 months before

[tulip star]

Niche is good when there’s more stuff to fill those niches

[harsh lark]

You don't ensure people will play a dino just because you added it. Thats why we had swarms of rexes, shants and trikes in legacy. Why would I play pachy when I can be an unkillable stego?

[golden coral]

I sincerely doubt you'd be happy if we let stego be killable as you want now, and then make it untouchable by utahs and carno in the future

[dawn falcon]

Stego, like I said, is fine being hunted by only 2 carnivores.
Stego is also slow, so carnos can easily disengage and go in with their day, so can other carnivores.

[golden coral]

Then people would complain that they could hunt stegos before, why not now

[dawn falcon]

If Utah’s have the option to take down a stego, and a pair of deinos can too, that doesn’t make stego unkillable

[golden coral]

Well, we've had the patch for not even a week, and we don't know how far away the update is ^^

[tulip star]

Hold on I’ve got to go, but I’ll be back and I’ll ping y’all when I’m back

[dawn falcon]

Have a good one

[tulip star]

Ty

[golden coral]

I've had to deal with trash tier stego since it came out, with shit like 4 utah shred pounce, carno thagomizer killing, and so on.

You've had not even a week of your utah nerfs

[dawn falcon]

And the fact a solo Utah could take down a stego..

[golden coral]

Yet you're the ones that somehow are shit on and no longer have any fun in the game at all

Just think about the fact of how long stego has been shit, and not what a stego should, compared to how long you've suffered with your still capable but no longer as strong utah.

[tacit oriole]

I played lots of U3 stego. It was rough, required a lot of skills but it was viable

Utah still is too but

[golden coral]

Sure, "viable", so is utah right now

[tacit oriole]

It's too situational imo

[golden coral]

So yeah, now spend the same amount of time with your utah that I did with stego

Then you can be upset

[harsh lark]

Cool sob story, but ever since stego was released it was the tankiest land dino with the ability to two shot any other land dino. We're talking objective game balance.

[dawn falcon]

Not really

It was killed by a carno with 6 headshots

That’s not tanky at all

[tacit oriole]

I've spent about 15 hours with Utah since the patch, I'm a bit burned out with TI atm

[harsh lark]

There's no point in petty "I had it rough now you have to do it too!"

[golden coral]

So am I. And "tanky" and "power" means nothing when it's not efficient.

[dawn falcon]

Plus

With it 2 shotting carnos

[harsh lark]

In a game with only melee ranged combatants its the strongest ability to have in skilled hands.

[dawn falcon]

That means each Carno could go in and tank a hit, while trading one in return

[golden coral]

You're not talking objective when you're claiming that stego is unhuntable now when it's not

[dawn falcon]

And now stego is down to 1 hit left

Not tanky whatsoever

[golden coral]

Except it's not, because again, shit tier attacks and extra weakness on head for no good reason, despite low health

But it's easy to just excuse it with "skill", but then you can apply that to yourself too

[tacit oriole]

Utah needs to be smarter, luckier, more skillful, and outnumber it's prey every fight. It just gets frustrating

[golden coral]

That's how utah, and generally predators should work. Be smarter than the prey and so on.

[dawn falcon]

Is Utah not a pack hunter to you?

[golden coral]

The attacker should always have it more difficult than the defender

[tacit oriole]

I disagree

[harsh lark]

They're called trade offs, characters in a video game aren't mean't to just have everything they need with no built in issues to overcome. Stegos weakness is a peanut sized head, just accept it.

[golden coral]

And the one with the speed that sets the engagement/pace, is another factor that should increase the difficulty

[golden coral]

This is not that kind of game. So no, you're wrong there. The head is still "weak", considering attack is in the rear and all that

[dawn falcon]

Utah is a frail wolf, requiring team work to take down the “good stuff”.

[tacit oriole]

Herbivores already have number and food convenience advantages. Herbivores win fights by default if nothing dies, carnivore lose it

[dawn falcon]

Or we’ll, Utah should be a frail wolf

It needs a lot of it’s bugged patched before so

[tacit oriole]

Now I actually know how the bleed system works I can see why Utah is like it is, but it still needs more love

[tulip star]

This is def that type of game where trade offs are needed, have you seen legacy rex it literally has everything and it dominates servers. Anyways this time I’m really gone

[golden coral]

As it should be. Herbi is "easy mode", carni is "hard mode".

[dawn falcon]

Inertia wasn’t adjusted for every dinosaur so every dinosaur has the same inertia, and pounce bleed is bugged

[hallow spire]

sometimes i pounce through things lol

[dawn falcon]

So it’s all about fixing some things

[tacit oriole]

Bugged? How?

[dawn falcon]

To make Utah better

[golden coral]

Didn't mean to keep you here, but no, I don't agree there. Legacy rex "dominates" (not really) for other reasons.

[harsh lark]

If this isn't that kind of game then it's something we call a horrible game. I don't get why you have a problem connecting balanced games with fun.

[dawn falcon]

The math is wrong so it doesn’t apply the proper amount of bleed

The proper amount that was stated brings a carno down to 20% blood with 2 Utah pounces

[tacit oriole]

Explain, I've done days of testing on it

[golden coral]

I don't have a problem with that, you just refuse to acknowledge that your idea of "fun" and "balance" is different to mine.

[dawn falcon]

Read what I said above

[tacit oriole]

Bleed depends on heaps of factors, though

[golden coral]

Balance to me is not the same as balance to you, and fun is certainly a subjective thing

[hollow canyon]

It's weaker than intended, there's a lot of stuff that we aren't aware of that affects how the bleed works. We just know that it's bugged and should be more powerful with the net patch.

[golden coral]

So what you want, makes the game unfun to me, and vice versa

[dawn falcon]

So I forgot to add its WHILE BUCKING and trotting/walking

[tacit oriole]

I can hit y'all with some bleed numbers if you want

[harsh lark]

Sure, but my idea isn't really exclusive to myself. The average person who plays games will agree that balanced games are more fun. You can keep arguing in circles with me about this, but we're not gonna get anywhere if you want to stick to your views.

[dawn falcon]

I don’t Mind if you do

[tacit oriole]

But a single Utah pounce can kill a carno with bleed in the right circumstances

[golden coral]

But "balance" and "fun" is still subjetctive. So that depends on who you ask. We all want a balanced and fun game, but what that means is different.

And you're just as stubborn as I am, pot meet kettle

:p

[dawn falcon]

Huh

Rn?

[golden coral]

My idea is hardly exclusive to myself either, you just seem to refuse to admit that I also want a fun and balanced game, but what that entails differs.

We agree on the basics, just not the execution

[tacit oriole]

Let's see if this works here

Utah Bleed on Carno
No Water 57.2
No Food
No Food/Water 41.7
N Sit 81.52
N Stand 64.42
N Trott 43.97
N Sprint 31.53
N No stam, walking 0
N, No Stam, trott, full hp 9.8
N, full stam, stand, hurt 55

Number is remaining blood

[dawn falcon]

Well

[golden coral]

Well that's some different values depending on circumstances

[harsh lark]

What you want isn't balance though, it's just hardcore realism. Sure the game can be balanced that way, but you'd have to add in a buttload of unfun mechanics, like restricting what dinos people can play to ensure everyone doesn't go the biggest dinos that are clearly the best.

[golden coral]

So what I take from that is, make the carno waste stam first, then bleed it? :p

[tacit oriole]

Correct

No stamina makes bleed really nasty

[dawn falcon]

Now you know the proper amount of bleed that’s supposed to be inflicted is enough to bring down a carno to ~20% blood while bucking and walking/trotting and being pounced 2 times.

So it’s supposed to be lethal

[tacit oriole]

Sitting to standing to trotting to sprinting all significantly increases bleed too

[golden coral]

See, that is still balance. Hardcore realism is a way to balance. Though it's hardly what I want anyway But my point is that it is still balance, even if you don't think so. Because again, balance is subjective, depending on what your goals are and what you want result-wise.

[frosty heron]

Smart Carno would just play defensive and not waste Stam when bleeding

[hollow canyon]

Did I get that right? You lose more blood if you walk rather than trot?

[dawn falcon]

I’m assuming these are all by full pounces?

[golden coral]

@harsh larkCan we just agree that we both want a balanced game and both think that balanced = good. Beyond that we disagree on what balance is and entails, because we have different experiences in mind for the game that we find fun and engaging.

[hallow spire]

i doubt that'll happen that often most carnos i see charge at everything they see and alt bite like crazy except deino and stego lol

[tacit oriole]

A full length pounce is about 22s, bucking knocks you off in like... 8s?

[dawn falcon]

Correct

Though

Bucking I think is also bugged

[tacit oriole]

Full length pounce to a full carno, who then sprints through the bleed, deals 60% bleed

[frosty heron]

That's on them, when I played Carno before the patch that was my playstile, ambush Utahs, try to get them and if I get pounced play defensive, they end up messing up

[true ginkgo]

It’s because different people have different ideas about what the gap between small and large should be.

[golden coral]

I know. I'm trying to get that point across to Sino here :p

That we both do want a balanced game, we just severely disagree on what that actually means

[harsh lark]

Sure why not. I'm not here to force you to believe what you don't want to believe. But all I'll say is that Isle has tried to make the type of balance you like work in the past, like the weight system in legacy, and it's fallen flat. Which is why such mechanics didn't make the cut into evrima.

[tacit oriole]

Utah is an absolute machine at cleaning up after fights. If you have a pack of Utah that rocks up after a teno vs carno fight they are just lethal

[dawn falcon]

lol

[tacit oriole]

But against full, normal targets they struggle hard

[golden coral]

I'd be inclined to believe you if the weight system was a matter of balance issue in that way, but it never was. To me the issue was how .5 more growth meant the older one shat on the younger one cause of how weight synergies worked. Far more than any interaction between different species where both were adults, and so on. And I'm not here to force you to believe something you don't want to believe either, I hope you know that.

[true ginkgo]

Like I think the gap between utah and rex should be massive, with all but the very largest utah packs not being able to bring one down. Others think a solo utah with some time and skill should eventually beat a rex.

[tacit oriole]

I love it in some ways but my scrawny buddy gotta eat

[golden coral]

Good. Maybe that'll help cut down on the deathmatch thinking :p

[true ginkgo]

Imo the skill with the apex should be successfully growing it.

[golden coral]

Just start a clean up service and teach people how bad it is to constantly go looking for fights :p

[dawn falcon]

Here comes hypno

Oh

That’s actually hypno

[frosty heron]

[dawn falcon]

I feel something big coming

[alpine plover]

the bully dev

[frosty heron]

More Utah Nerfs

[dawn falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/the-dark-knight-joker-batman-here-we-go-gif-3430376

[hallow spire]

[dim raft]

I think a lot of people forget that we're making a survival game first and foremost with characters varying hugely in size and strength. We are not making a fighting game. There will be characters that are just inherently better than others because it makes sense for them to be, due to the aforementioned reasons. We alleviate the issue of players rushing to ONLY play those characters through other systems, such as growth, diets, nesting, etc.

[thin mantle]

Plus it requires Utahs to run from carnos for a substantial amount of time, this is all assuming the utah can survive it's terrible turn rate and speed. Pounce requires a lot of stam to use, you're gonna be out of stam by the time the carno is drained of it as well.

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, full 22s pounce until you fall off

[dawn falcon]

Pog af

[dim raft]

Not every creature has to be able to kill another creature. You win the game by just surviving.

[dawn falcon]

Also Hypno. If you don’t mind me asking, what were the reasonings behind making weight = HP?

Just curious

[dim raft]

So if that means turning around and walking the fuck in the other direction, that's what you do.

[tacit oriole]

Which is great, but until all those mechanics are in place it's a Dinosaur Fighting Game

We'll see

[thin mantle]

A massive draw to the game is combat ofcourse

[tacit oriole]

Look at how aggressive all the teno packs are on official atm

[dim raft]

Well it's going to be balanced for the long run. We don't want to constantly go back on ourselves to change balance every time a new feature/playable is added.

[tacit oriole]

People don't want to sit in a bush and RP as herbivores

They want to fight stuff and have fun

[golden coral]

To be fair, we're, hopefully, near the update where gameplay loop is starting

[true ginkgo]

Currently a full utah pack still beats a stego, which is fine imo. It just takes time and patience

[golden coral]

So the time of "only fighting to do" is hopefully coming to an end

[dawn falcon]

Is this for weight = Hp or just in general?

[frosty heron]

I have self opinion about this, while this is right, we need more options ingame to make that "Surviving" enjoyable apart of just, killing stuff, which is pretty much what you can do now and nothing else

[dim raft]

Yes. Utahraptor packs can still beat a Stego, it's been tried and tested and it's playing out how we want it to.

[tacit oriole]

Only if you have the food and thirst to spare or they don't know about tree/fern hugging

[stark knoll]

Which is why diets are in the next update

[tacit oriole]

Fern hugging stegos are basically invincible

[thin mantle]

Even if so, I'll prolly only play so I can get to my next combat encounter. I like the combat in this game quite a bit. Well I used to

[dawn falcon]

Is the weight = HP thing for development purposes like making it easier to balance creatures?

[hollow canyon]

It takes roughly 20 minutes to kill a Stegosaurus in a mid to large sized Utah pack atm.

[stark knoll]

And nesting is in the one after that

[alpine plover]

This is true, but sadly the mentality of the playerbase acts like it's entirely a pvp game, because in the past, surviving was so barebone that the only actual fun was pvp and killing. I feel like this mentality will change if the surviving part of the game is more fleshed out.

[thin mantle]

I'm pretty sure it's just because it's less confusing

[true ginkgo]

Hopefully terrain hugging and water camping is fixed.

[swift beacon]

While you're here, do you think you could offer your thoughts on whether Stego will get a kit adjustment once there are creatures it can't just simply stand up to and try to stab to death are in?

[dawn falcon]

pretty sure if it’s less confusing then that means it’s easier to balance

[tacit oriole]

If you remove the core PvP loop you will lose most of the playerbase overnight

[frosty heron]

Even Diets wouldn't give many options apart of just a better and enjoyable grow, which is great but the endgame will be the same, grow adult to kill stuff

[swift beacon]

Yesn't

[dawn falcon]

Though it gives you something to look for

[dim raft]

You don't know what's in the diets update.

[alpine plover]

Okay, who said it should be removed?

[golden coral]

Well, then that's on you. I hope diets, nesting, and all that, will add more to do. If you only really want to fight, then.. maybe sandbox will be for you. Or perhaps a server with faster growth times and less punishing diets and stuff, if that becomes server options that is.

[frosty heron]

Of course I do not, I wish

[swift beacon]

It's been stated that following or ignoring diets will buff/debuff you based on the duration and magnitude of how long you have/haven't followed them

[alpine plover]

I'm saying "survival" part of the game should be just as important as PvP. I'm not saying anything should be removed. You can't even remove it because one of the major part of the game is pvp.

[thin mantle]

Oh no I love the rest. I just find combat engaging. It has nothing with what I want in the game, it's just that combat is fast and reactive.

[swift beacon]

In addition to offering bonuses/penalties to growth

[golden coral]

I'm not so sure you will. We need a proper gameplay loop, of which PvP is a part, but so should PvE and nesting and all be. There's a good deal of us who have been waiting for so long for more than just fighting in the game. And nesting in legacy is.. well, as barebones as combat is there so.

Bascially what RyK said. It's not that PvP should be gone, it's that there should be more to the gameplay loop preferably.

And diets, from what I know, is not just for growing Turok, it's for your entire life + for perks and god only knows what else

[dim raft]

It will help us a lot knowing how we want to balance characters before they're in, but it's also just good for making characters less artificially inflated. If it weighs a small amount, it's small, therefore it has a small health pool.

[golden coral]

So it's not just "I'm grown, now I no longer care", if you do that, you'll grow weak and vunerable and so on

[dawn falcon]

[dim raft]

I agree.

[hollow canyon]

PvP might be the most exciting part of the game but the beauty of it in The Isle is that it sometimes has a lot of build-up. Those are the best fights when you don't just rush in head-first but instead work for your animal first to have it reach a stage where it is a threat to another player and then work further to maximise your chances in an encounter. As much as I love the PvP aspect, the game would be much less exciting if it was turned into a deathmatch(which it kind of is atm).

All those additional things that are coming into the game are actually good from my PvP-centred perspective.

[thin mantle]

Yeah pretty much

[hollow canyon]

Sandbox simply never equates to survival in terms of PvP precisely for those reasons in my opinion.

[thin mantle]

That's just factual

[tacit oriole]

My experience is people love PvP but the survival part is what keeps you coming back

[hollow canyon]

I love the PvP in this game precisely because it is a survival. I don't enjoy other games that are perhaps even more PvP centric than The Isle despite the fact that PvP is the main draw for me.

[thin mantle]

I think they both do that honestly, that's why people are stull playing Evrima despite there being relatively few survival mechanics in game

[tacit oriole]

There's a reason people fire up TI instead of CoD, Apex, etc

But hiding is not gameplay

[hollow canyon]

It might be a bit paradoxical but that's how I feel about this game.

[tacit oriole]

The effort and investment that goes into simply surviving makes the combat more impactful

You die on CoD or CS who cares, 10s later good to go

You die in PubG it sucks hard

[thin mantle]

It incentivises you winning

[tacit oriole]

Maybe Utah just needs more tools to get the sort of successful ambush it needs. Ability to sense exertion to guess if your target is low Stam, for example. Maybe extended scent range for blood

Plus some agility and a slightly longer hunger timer

[golden coral]

I'd start with the agility and hunger timers. And the bug fixes/tree adjustements.

Does the breathing when low on stam work for everyone else or only you?

[tacit oriole]

If you can fix the hard counters to pounce Utah will get genuinely scary again

Everyone, but the range is super short and it stops as soon as you stop running

[golden coral]

Hm, well there's room for some improvement there then perhaps

[hollow canyon]

Agility is a given, the loss of agility on Utah is very likely unintentional. I'd wait until the next update to see what's done with it. Utah overall isn't in a terrible position atm, although it is a bit underwhelming due to a set of circumstances that hold it back(be it bugs like the water-bug or the agility which ended up worse than inteded after the introduction of inertia). Just give it time until update 4 and see what changes about it when the update comes out.

[thin mantle]

It needs a severe lack of inertia

[golden coral]

Here we go again.. :p

[tacit oriole]

Haha

[thin mantle]

Am I wrong!!!!? xD

[hollow canyon]

Utah is still genuinely scary imo although it's such largely due to another bug that I've been experiencing since update 2.

[dawn falcon]

Wait till they patch that bleed bug

[golden coral]

Not neccesarily, but you could do with giving it a chance! :p

[dawn falcon]

Utah will be even scarier

also wait till it’s more agile

[thin mantle]

I'm literally playing it rn, it has no benefits to gameplay :/

[golden coral]

Because it is a bit of a mess right now, which we all admit :p

[dawn falcon]

Inertia wasn’t customized to every Dino

[hollow canyon]

I'm just hoping that if the bleed and water bugs get fixed then the pounce bug gets fixed as well.

[dawn falcon]

So every Dino has the same inertia

[thin mantle]

Ik but even then why does it exist as a mechanic at all?

What does it add?

[dawn falcon]

Why not?
It so shit doesn’t have a superb turn while being hella fast

[hollow canyon]

It's genuinely frustrating to know that you're going to lose your animal just because the bug decided to strike again and stopped you from bucking.

[dawn falcon]

It’s also like weight = hp

If they make a creature fast

They have a. Slower turn

The faster they are

The slower the turn

[golden coral]

Hopefully if bucking takes front and center as the counter to pouncing, that'll be looked at

[dawn falcon]

Just like weight being increased, means more HP

So it’s like

It makes math easier I guess

[golden coral]

Just like how the water bug is now more noticed when utahs can't just use bite but have to pounce

[hollow canyon]

Hopefully because as it is I've lost way too many animals because of that bug.

[golden coral]

So I imagine we'll first see fixes to make bucking the "hard counter", and then we'll see what bucking needs to work properly

Looping bucking would be nice too

[hollow canyon]

Funny thing I've experienced it once during update 2, then a couple of times during update 3 and as soon as update 3.5 came out I get it every other time when I get pounced.

[thin mantle]

This was already in the game due to varying turn speeds and rates prior to the fix

[dawn falcon]

Not really

[thin mantle]

Now it's just forced

[dawn falcon]

They had to adjust it themselves

So both speed and turning

[thin mantle]

Yes, that was loads better than it is now

[dawn falcon]

Now inertia combines them and makes the math easier

Not really

It’s the same

Just

[thin mantle]

You had control over your movement

[dawn falcon]

Everything has the same inertia

So

It hasn’t been customized yet which means we’ll have to wait till it does

[thin mantle]

No I'm questioning it's benefit on a basal level

[tacit oriole]

I mean movement feels natural to me now, but it makes it so much harder to juke

[dawn falcon]

It makes math easier and adds physics to it.

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

Especially Utah

Which will change once it’s again, customized

[thin mantle]

I've literally never heard that before, to me it just makes movement frustrating

Right ik

[dawn falcon]

I’m talking to ag

[tacit oriole]

Even if Utah could just leap forwards while doing their tight little slow turn it would be good

[dawn falcon]

I guess the best explanation is

It makes the creature feel more natural when it moves?

[tacit oriole]

Realistic. But it also sucks

[dawn falcon]

It makes the dinosaur feel like it’s alive

[dawn falcon]

Yeah it needs some work

Quadrupedal creatures should have less inertia

While bipedal suffers more

[thin mantle]

Yeah that's kinda my point, why add realism to the game when it makes gameplay less enjoyable

[thin mantle]

This is very true if the mechanic is to remain

Teno really shouldn't have inertia

[dawn falcon]

I don’t think it makes it less enjoyable. Maybe for now, but it needs to be customized and expanded on

Like

[tacit oriole]

You don't have to scrap inertia just tune it. Let them accelerate faster and turn harder

[dawn falcon]

It needs more factors to take place

Like do you have 2 or 4 limbs to walk on? What’s your weight?

The more you weigh, the worse your inertia is, aswell as faster, but if you have 4 limbs, cut the inertia in half

So like

Yeah

It’s just very bare atm

[tacit oriole]

Also make them lean into corners and actually run hard instead of just trotting around https://images.app.goo.gl/hDe5UGtbRdaKeg8N9

[dawn falcon]

So kinda like

This in a sense for Carno

[tacit oriole]

Oh hell yeah

[dawn falcon]

Just

Slightly more punishing cause it only has 2 limbs

[thin mantle]

I think the most frustrating thing so far, is that as a utah you can tap your A or D and you will travel an entire body length away from your starting point before leveling back to your original trajectory.

[tacit oriole]

While leaned over like this

[dawn falcon]

Ah so you kinda wobble when it comes to movement?

[thin mantle]

Yeah it almost feels like input lag

[dawn falcon]

It definitely does feel like input lag

But that might be because the inertia is a fuckin carnos in a Utah’s body lol

[thin mantle]

And during chases of small creatures, you kinda need to stop moving to readjust before running back through eachother. I literally just had a fight with a dryo as a 60% utah where both of us couldn't hit eachother because we could really only do "legacy runthroughs"

TLDR: Utah and dryo inertia needs at least a 50% reduction

[dawn falcon]

Yes

[thin mantle]

And if it were up to me creatures of that size wouldn't even have it for the sake of agility

Larger creatures I can definitely understand

But things below the weight class of a teno just confuses me

[tacit oriole]

I do really think that sneaky ambush hunters should have longer hunger timers and less overall hunger compared to their brawler cousins

The current "hunger = weight" thing is silly

[dawn falcon]

Huh

Could you explain to me in more detail

[tacit oriole]

Every carnivore can eat just over their own weight in food atm

In a single sitting

[dawn falcon]

Oh my

[golden coral]

Is that related to hunger drain though?

[tacit oriole]

Hunger drain is pretty consistent, 45min

60min for deino

[hollow canyon]

Are you sure it's 60 minutes for Deino?

[tacit oriole]

There is some extra stuff, like you get more food when low and less when nearing full

[hollow canyon]

I think it lasted me until I was past 20% as a Deinosuchus

[tacit oriole]

And you get 3x bonus for anything you can swallow whole

[tacit oriole]

That would be correct, 1 hour is 20%

If you had a fishy along the way you should be good

[hollow canyon]

Yea but I mean that I believe I still had some food after passing 20%

I think I had to eat at around 24%? Might be me misremembering it or perhaps I ate something on the way

but that was my impression

[tacit oriole]

Ah. I tested 100->80 and 10->0 and it was consistent, but I may have made a mistake

[hollow canyon]

Nah, i think if you tested it then you're probably right

I haven't done any tests that was just how it "felt" while growing it

I may have simply eaten something and forgot about it

[tacit oriole]

I'll double check next time I'm on though, people have caught mistakes of mine previously

And there's a lot of hidden shit going on this patch

[hollow canyon]

True

[tacit oriole]

But yeah. Even with the 3x bonus for eating little stuff, and the bonus when low on food, (and the bonus deino gets from fish) keeping carnivores fed is a lot harder this patch

Growing carnos is especially noticeable

[golden coral]

@languid frostIn the patch before this, stego and utah had the same biteforce. 130 if I recall correctly. Teno had 110. And pounce does "no" damage, but impressive bleed, because utah is now properly balanced as an attrition hunter who wears prey out over longer times. The turn radius is because of inertia being the same for all critters right now, instead of designed for each species properly. This will be adjusted.

[ocean wagon]

i was reading the chat and im happy that a lot of people like my comparasion between a utah and an african wild dog. With that said, to the people that want utah packs to roll over stego.....please stop and just take examples of animals in real life. A pack of wolves dont stroll up to a full grown bull moose hoping for a meal. The only time Moose are on a wolfs diet, is if the moose itself is extremely sick, injured, or its a calf. The same logic should be applied in game. Yes although you can technically take down a stego as a utah pack, its high advised that you find easier prey. Unless the Stego is extremely sick, injured, or its a calf the match up should be more so in a stegos favor

its really not a hard concept to grasp

and yes we're all aware of utah needing to be more agile.

@fiery mantle perfect suggestion of what utah actually needs

[fiery mantle]

Thank you sir I'm glad you agree 🙂

[thin mantle]

Yeah what you wrote is fantastic. I've always kinda felt that Utah should have a better stam regen but this latest update reallly puts into perspective how important that actually is

[fiery mantle]

I just hope the devs hear me out on that one 😂

[golden coral]

@fiery mantleGiving a bit more stam usage, at least for running and jumping could be fine, the regen I'm not quite as sure on, if only cause I still want utahs to require a more or less fullsized pack to have that much stam available for pouncing and all that. For the last, I agree with longer hunger drains, but I also want to point out that the moment you no longer have a carcass available, you should start hunting again.

[thin mantle]

If it were changed the way you wrote it I'd actually enjoy playing utah again

[golden coral]

The agility is well known, and should be fixed. No isse there.

As for fall damage, I don't know how bad it is, but I do know people tend to.. misjudge the height because of no good comparison, so keep that in mind.

[ocean wagon]

i dont really mind the height that much

[golden coral]

I don't know how it is, I just know from first hand experience that the "tiny fall" was a good few meters :p

[ocean wagon]

ive only died to height back when i didnt know the map and i run off a cliff

[golden coral]

If you never had the chance to try out first person, you missed out :p

And oh yes.. the shallows.. far too many carnos lost to that area xD

[ocean wagon]

^^^^^

[thin mantle]

Well honestly the stam regen doesn't change much about the gameplay other than enabling players to be more active. Mainly because the stamina management is still a factor, although the amount of time it takes to regenerate the stam necessary to do anything would be shorter. Stam would still have the same risk/reward

[fiery mantle]

the surprise cliffs on this map are just hilarious. Forget 1 v 1ing a carno, I usually just get them to run themselves off a cliff in the shallows 😂

[golden coral]

More so that you could regen fast enough to "counter" the lack of extra packmates, is what I'm thinking of. There's still the same risk/reward in using it, but it might make it easier to cycle with fewer utahs, is all.

[ocean wagon]

i juked the shit out of a carno on the massive cliff by the ponds when i was a dryo

amazing

[golden coral]

See that's good thinking! I've wanted to do that but with dryo dodge :p

[fiery mantle]

Ngl I think players need to use terrain more often as an option in combat and escape

[golden coral]

Preferably in proper ways and not just tree-hugging or shoving head into rock xD

[fiery mantle]

Yeah true those are both annoying strategies to deal with

[golden coral]

Movement based impact on trees/rocks might be a solution.

[ocean wagon]

did they ever fix carno being able to bite through rocks?

[thin mantle]

It would be such a minimal impact, and honestly the amount of utahs you have only affects how much bleed you can administer initially. This change doesn't increase or decrease the difficulty of hunting a stego or defending as a stego. You can still just apply bleed, wait for it to drain, walk around as your stam regens, then repounce before the bleed heal begins. The only functional change is that utahs escaping carnos would be a bit more manageable, and the combat between utahs and stegos would be more active

[golden coral]

Don't think so? Stegos can swing through after all.

[fiery mantle]

my friends and I were playing Utah and got a good laugh out of a Teno who tried backing himself up to the water near the shallows... you bet we watched him get dragged away by a deino real quick

[golden coral]

Not so much changing the difficulty itself perhaps, but still, not quite sure on it. Not a fan of things running around too much in any case. Use your trot to travel and stop being in such a rush! (carnos seem to suffer from this issue even more for some reason!)
Giving a bit better run time and jump (though rocktahs are dumb, and I'll not hear otherwise!), is fine. But I'd start there and maybe consider regen if the rest isn't helping, including that agility fix.

[thin mantle]

Why should we not use our run to travel?

[golden coral]

Because running means you're hauling ass, which you usually only do when it's important. Such as escaping something or in an attack, or possibly if you're you know, starving or dehydrating. It's not for normal moving around or migrating. Use your stamina when it's needed. At least that's how I see it and how I want it. You don't normally run around throughout your day, do you? :p

[tacit oriole]

Pounce does about 540 damage over the full duration now

[golden coral]

Sounds noticable enough I think, and with health affecting bleed, every little bit will help on that account too.

[tacit oriole]

Worth noting too that since bleed is affected by HP, two pounces does significantly more than double one pounce

[golden coral]

Does it stack then?

[tacit oriole]

All the bleed modifiers stack

[golden coral]

But that makes sense, utahs should be encouraged to fill the slots in an attack

[tacit oriole]

But not 100%

[golden coral]

Instead of "taking turns" one at a time

So that sounds reasonable to me if 2+ utahs at the same time has a better effect overall

[golden coral]

Explain please.

[tacit oriole]

So empty food does adds 30s to bleed heal, empty water does the same, but empty food AND water adds about 45s

[golden coral]

How about health/stamina, they also increased bleed rate right?

Do they affect total blood loss, or just how fast you lose it?

[tacit oriole]

Both

They make you bleed for longer and make you bleed faster

[golden coral]

Hm

[tacit oriole]

Sadly I need a helper for bleed testing and it takes a lot of time, so I've not been able to be as scientific as I'd like

[golden coral]

No worries, you're doing great work!

Just make sure to put it in the document, in a nice and easy to understand way preferably!

Perhaps with some examples to help

[golden coral]

Does it count for every attack cycle then, or why is it more effective?

[thin mantle]

A lot of irl animals run to travel. I don't see why utahs can't do the same

[golden coral]

I guess they could, I just find it very strange. Anyway, do said animals travel at max run speed then?

[dawn falcon]

Actually

A lot of the animals jog

They don’t actually “run”

[thin mantle]

Depends

[dawn falcon]

Because running would waste their stamina needed to pursue prey.

[thin mantle]

Plus there aren't varying degrees of sprinting in this game

[golden coral]

Expand on that please. But running in this game = max running speed. Trot is your "travel speed". So unless your examples are of well, running at max speed, then I'd say trot is what you're looking for in the game for a comparison.

And yeah, wouldn't be wrong with more degrees of speed for different situations

[dawn falcon]

Certain creatures will have good or bad trots.

Good trots are moreso endurance creatures

Like tenonto

just not to the point of endurance hunting carnos

Bad trots are slower ones, with a lack of stamina, but great speed when running

[tacit oriole]

It counts for extra because the target HP is lower for the duration of the bleed

Each tick of bleed is affected by the current HP/Food/Water/Stamina and stance

[thin mantle]

Honestly I don't see the reason why realism needs to be taken into account here. I don't even care that there are animals irl that utilize running to travel. The point I'm making is that running doesn't have to be reserved for hunting or escaping, players should use it how they see fit

[dawn falcon]

So far, we haven’t had any “bad trot” creaturess

Every playable seems to have a decent trot.

[tacit oriole]

Ignore the no food lone, whoops

[thin mantle]

Giving utah more stamina than it has now solves a couple issues it is currently facing as outlined by Oddity, whether players use that stam to travel should be up to them.

[tacit oriole]

Pounce needs to work quicker imo

22s is too long

[golden coral]

Wait really? I.. don't think that's how it's supposed to work?

[thin mantle]

It needs the stun animation removed, doesn't really make any sense why it would take so long to get up from what is essentially a "spicy jump"

[tacit oriole]

Ya. You get a wound opened, you need to nurse it until it clots

[dawn falcon]

I think the 22s is moreso due to the fact if you don’t buck, you’ll be punished with a shitton of bleed.

[tacit oriole]

You sprint around with a huge gash in your side, going to be bad news bears

[dawn falcon]

And when you buck, the pounce usually doesn’t last that long

[tacit oriole]

Yeah buck is super OP this patch

1 buck and you gotta bail as Utah

[golden coral]

I mean, you can use it. Just.. well, then you're out of stam in case you need to hunt or get hunted. I don't think stam should be used that way, so making it well, discouraged is fine to me, to encourage trot or walk as well. It's part realism, but also part me wanting all the "speed" modes to be useful for different things.

[ocean wagon]

isnt bucking supposed to make the creature bleed more?

[tacit oriole]

Like to add. Not a fan of the fastest way to travel being full sprint, lay down, repeat

[dawn falcon]

Bucking honestly should be 2s longer to buck off a Utah, and drain more stamina to the bucker

[golden coral]

But then if you increased food/water/stam while bleeding, you'd take less?

[thin mantle]

Realism is a pretty bad standard in regards to utah. If this game was realistic in regards to a utah then single pounce would be more than enough to kill a stego, but for gameplay purposes it isn't and that is perfectly fine. This is a similar case, we can't just apply 'realism' to some creatures in regards to certain stats but not apply it to others

[tacit oriole]

Nah, no multiplier for bucking, and even if there was, 2s of bucking to prevent 3/4 of the bleed would be well worth it

[dawn falcon]

Actually if it were realism it probably wouldn’t even be able to pounce a stego lmao

[golden coral]

Don't think so, that'd be counter to making buck the best for getting rid of pounces I think.

[thin mantle]

How so?

[tacit oriole]

Correct. Same as if you lay down half way through bleeding you take less

[dawn falcon]

Utah weighed way too much to be able to leap high enough and latch on a proper surface of the stego.

[tacit oriole]

It's not "X damage applied over Y seconds" it's "X/sec that lasts for Y seconds"

[thin mantle]

Oh I'm merely referring to the physics in regards to TI utah

[dawn falcon]

Ah

[golden coral]

Fine, ignore the realism. My other points still stands I think.

[golden coral]

You need to test that. Cause from what I know, it does not help to fill up, you don't gain something from that. Because bleed does what it did when it was inflicted.

But if it works on the "negative", it should work on the "positive", but last I knew of it, that's not how bleed worked

The stance changes I get. But if you do a pounce, on empty stego, and then let it start eating/drinking, that should not make the bleed any less bad, from what I know.

[thin mantle]

Well not really, it relies on the standards of realism. There isn't a reason to make stamina regen less because all speed modes are used differently. I don't want utah to have more stam necessarily. Having a higher stam regen is what I would change

[golden coral]

Well you know I'm not sure on the stam regen, I'd rather just give them a bit more usage. Not sure there's standards of realism in wanting a different use, granted, my choice of use is based on realism, but do you have any alternative to offer? What use is trot or walk currently, barring some turn changes potentially?

[tacit oriole]

I can say with absolute and total confidence that your bleed/sec changes live with your current multipliers

Anyone who has been given a good whap by a stego and watched their bloodpools going from sitting to sprinting can attest

[golden coral]

Alright. I have no reason to disbelieve you, it's just a surprise because last I heard it did not work like that before.

Yeah, stance changes I'm sure of

It's the stam/food/water increase I'm not so sure of

[tacit oriole]

Remind me in a few hours, I'll do a little live demo

Assuming my helper is available

[golden coral]

Like, if you get pounced while having 0 stam, then rest up to max stam, assuming you don't die that is, would you consistently get less bleed damage the more stam you get?

[tacit oriole]

Your bleed rate would go down as you regenerated stamina

It's easy to test directly though, if you still aren't convinced

Stamina and HP not so much, but food and water

[golden coral]

Right, I'd appreciate some proof of that, same if it works for food/water, though that was only time to heal right? But then resting would both lower the damage because of resting, + consistently lower it for every bit of stamina you got back?

[tacit oriole]

Yup, and it's why testing had been so annoying

[golden coral]

But yes, please provide proof if it's not too much to ask for, because yeah, far as I knew, if I took a pounce, even if I then immediately ate/drank to full, it would do no difference

[tacit oriole]

Because for example, I want to know exactly what the stamina multiplier is - I actually can't hold my stamina on 0 without doing some sprinting and some walking

[golden coral]

Well we don't need to know the exact multipliers here, only if they change both positively and negatively

[tacit oriole]

So now you also have a variable amount of Trott and sprint multiplier coming in

[golden coral]

Not so much what?

[tacit oriole]

Ease of testing

I can arbitrarily set food and water, but you can't independently set Stam and HP using admin commands

[thin mantle]

Walk is essentially for aesthetic purposes, it doesn't have a use, it's not even a proper walk it's incredibly slow for every creature (which is fine, it's pretty cinematic). Trot is ironically a more fitting walk, it can be used to travel distances without incurring side effects from bleed as well as cover distance relatively slowly without using stamina. Run is used for covering distances efficiently and dodging while using stamina. Utah should be able to use it's sprint to travel, out of all the dinos in game it is probably one of the greatest examples of a creature designed to run long distances without tiring (along with teno). Your example is already true in the case of deino, it loses all of it's stamina in seconds when running on land, the same is true for ptera when flying. It's just that for a dino like utah it doesn't make sense to limit it's stamina pool in a similar way, especially with it's primary ability already draining it's entire stamina pool in a matter of seconds

[tacit oriole]

By the way: walking and trotting both have increased bleed over standing

And all 3 have different stamina regeneration numbers as well

However there is no difference for health and blood regen

[thin mantle]

Yes that is true

[golden coral]

Walk should maybe be increased to a proper walk then. It should have a use, not just look fancy, at least as far as I'm concerned. But I'm talking in general here, not utah specific. I can agree maybe utahs would be having a slightly easier time of it running, but even so they should still use trot when following prey over longer distances, or when migrating or similar. So I'd increase walk speeds to something approaching trot, then trot for a bit faster, and run the fastest and most specifically used then. I'd have to think on it, but you get what I'm going for.

Do walk and trot have the same increased bleed?

[tacit oriole]

Compared to standing, sitting is 50%, trotting is 200%, and sprinting is 250% bleed

[tacit oriole]

No, Trott bleeds more than walk

[golden coral]

Alright. So better to walk than trot then if bleeding at least.

Better for stam regen too or?

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, but sitting is so much quicker usually better to just do that

[golden coral]

Not if you're being attacked I don't think :p

[tacit oriole]

Sitting vs any standing stance is double HP and blood regen

[golden coral]

So many numbers!

I'm too tired for this I think!

[tacit oriole]

I'm an engineer by trade haha, I love numbers

[thin mantle]

That would actually be a decent change, have trot not consume stamina but still be quite a bit faster than it is currently, and increase walk to the current trot. I'd be down for that if we could have the current walk as a cinematic option, because I really enjoy all of the walk speeds when I'm feeling cinematic. So perhaps make a 4th movement speed for that. Generally I'd agree on the usage of your various movement speeds if the previously stated changes were being implemented. Although even still I'd argue utah, teno, dryo, and hypsi would be incredible long distance runners considering their physiology and niches.

[tacit oriole]

It's so annoying having to constantly fight the urge to just pull the game apart and get the numbers directly. But that is way too disrespectful, besides being against the EULA

[golden coral]

Maybe that variable speed thing we both mentioned would be a nice thing. Go from slow walk to outright "get me the hell out of here" speed. Somehow... :p

And it's fine to have variable capability to run, it's more so over longer terms. Utahs run in hunts, more than some others, but for migrating, even they would rather trot. For example. Same with teno.

[tacit oriole]

I want significantly reduced scent trails for walking and trotting

[thin mantle]

Yeah xD Well I like that idea because it actually makes trot a reasonable method of getting around. If it was the way it is now then I'd be mad, because the utah trot is relatively slow for an animal it's size

[golden coral]

Why we didn't keep legacy footprints, I have no idea.

Because that's exactly that, more or less

[tacit oriole]

🤷‍♂️

Was legacy built in UE?

[thin mantle]

Well considering Tenos most direct parallel seems to be horses, I'd like to point out the fact that horses can run on average of 2-3 miles at a full sprint before completely tiring.... just saying it's kinda neat

[tacit oriole]

Sprint timers are great, but I think resting Stam recovery needs to be significantly longer

Trotting should be the fastest long-distance travel imo

[golden coral]

Trot to me should be that, fast enough to migrate decently and all that. Walk should be for you know, roaming for food (for herbi at least in an area), and around your nest or maybe going for water nearby. And then run for those life/death moments! But I'm fine with increasing walk and trot speed, and even run a touch more (as long as we don't run into those performance issues, they really need to know what the max speed for good performance is and work down from there!)

[thin mantle]

Exactly

[golden coral]

No idea. But the idea for footprints were fine. Walk = barely leave any. Trot = leave more. Run = leave a solid trail. Crouch was like walk I believe, but of course much quieter.

[tacit oriole]

Tune speeds around that obviously, but longer Stam recovery makes super-aggressive plays riskier for herbivores too. If it takes you 5min to recover your Stam, maybe you won't be quite as happy running around tail slamming everything

[golden coral]

Instead of crouch = invisible mode!

[tacit oriole]

Make recovering from fights a bit scarier, too

[thin mantle]

Kinda seems like an arbitrary limitation considering diets

[golden coral]

I am ever so salty, being a stego baby. And nothing you say will convince me that it's fine that a dryo or utah can just go "poof" by crouching away, while I can do nothing except wallow and pray nothing sees me in the open there/deino gets me.

[thin mantle]

The fight itself was risky enough, you shouldn't be punished for surviving too much

[tacit oriole]

It's more around making fights a bigger deal. Atm it's win a fight, sit down for a few minutes, and you are good to go. IRL animals avoid fights because a bad outcome can leave you vulnerable for days

[golden coral]

On the other hand, horses don't generally go around chasing down their predators, do they? :p

[thin mantle]

Doesn't really matter, actually Zebras do that sometimes

[thin mantle]

Oh that sounds painfully dull gameplay wise

[tacit oriole]

Zebras will chase lion and cheetah cubs, absolutely

[golden coral]

Well, people have complained about tenos running down carnos and even utahs so you know... :p

[thin mantle]

I don't want this game to be an arduous slog for a couple in game days because I didn't die in a fight, I'd rather just regrow that dino

[tacit oriole]

I'm not talking about days haha

Just not 1:15

[golden coral]

I would like that some fights end by stamina running out

[thin mantle]

Exactly! Make both of their stam regens faster and we have nothing to worry about

[golden coral]

Rather than fighting/giving up cause of damage

It would be nice if it as times is "I just have no energy left to fight", the opposition out"endured" in some way

[tacit oriole]

Doubling all the stamina timers would be a good change imo.

[golden coral]

But but... herbis are always nice, don't you know?!

[golden coral]

You and Aken would be the best of friends I think! :p

[thin mantle]

Canadian moose will literally track you over miles if they're having a really bad day

[thin mantle]

Would we xD

[tacit oriole]

I never agreed with that, herbivores will absolutely kill any carnivore they can safely, but they also won't risk injury for sport

[golden coral]

Yes! xD

[tacit oriole]

Also cranky bull elephants love to chase down cars and push them over lol

[golden coral]

Scary critter. I'm just making fun of those that don't quite understand that "mixherding", while a thing irl, is not the only way to be a herbi :p

[thin mantle]

When those herbivores are controlled by real humans they absolutely would, this game will never be a hyper realistic simulator and that's simply because it's controlled by humans that enjoy playing games

[thin mantle]

Ikr xD I will never understand herbivore aggression rules

[golden coral]

Good realism servers back in the day!

[tacit oriole]

It's just smart gameplay imo. Kill a single carnivore now, make the pack 1 smaller when it next comes at you. Why wouldn't you?

[golden coral]

Where you had yourself to blame if you thought going up to a shant as a smaller herbivore was a safe thing to do

[thin mantle]

Oh ik, herbivores shouldn't be so classified as peaceful until provoked, because that's not how most herbis are irl and that's certainly not how isle players use them

[thin mantle]

Yeah exactly

[thin mantle]

Good times, good times

[tacit oriole]

Anyway. Longer Stam regen is the biggest change I want now I've decided.

[thin mantle]

Oh I'd argue the opposite.....

[golden coral]

It was. More dryos died to my collateral than the austros that hunted them when I was stego. They never seemed to get the idea that I was trying to kill the austro, not protect them :p

[thin mantle]

But ultimately both have the same outcome it's just that yours adds more waiting

[tacit oriole]

Ooo, explain

[thin mantle]

Shall I 😏

I love a good stamina balancing discussion

[tacit oriole]

I mean I think you sort of have already

[golden coral]

Hah! At least I'm not involved here, so I can go sleep :p