balance-feedback-discussion

[tacit oriole]

Imagine Counterstrike with 1 long corridor and 1 weapon

That's not good gameplay

You need choice and player authority

[thin mantle]

Yeah pretty much. It’s one of the main issues I’ve been having with the hyper focus of only using pounce to win fights as a Utah

[tacit oriole]

That's why games like CoD embraced perks and builds

You don't need to go as far as say Path of Exile, but you need variety and more than one viable matchup

[raw sparrow]

so what should be changed then cause im sure everyone agrees,provide feedback

[golden coral]

Keep in mind, changing dino here is how you change "weapon"

To use Agoutis example

You have choice, it's just choice by playable more than choice by playing in a sense

With that said, it's fine to have some alternative ways and all that, but primarily it should be a case of choosing the right dino for whatever you're looking to do

Hence we have a huge roster of playables, so there's something for everyone

[thin mantle]

Oh I already have

[thin mantle]

Even still, it’s one of the issues legacy has in droves. With each Dino, there is pretty much 1 way to fight all the other dinos unless you must run away

[golden coral]

That's because legacy has.. well, no fancy mechanics or anything

[tacit oriole]

Teno is a good example of a good playable imo. You have multiple ways to play - slam for straight damage, kick/slash for bleed, you can chase and slash or stand and point your tail towards enemy

[golden coral]

Progression would have been a slightly better example perhaps

[tacit oriole]

Utah was, but isn't now

[thin mantle]

Oh yeah it’s just a baseline example

[golden coral]

Legacy as a word isn't really good, since I don't know if you mean survival or before that

[thin mantle]

Legacy in its current state

[thin mantle]

^

Utah currently only allows 2 methods of encountering an enemy:
1: Run away
2: Pounce then run away and get stam

Pretty flat

[golden coral]

I think teno slam should be CC; and work in tandem with swipe/kick for damage/bleed

[turbid hazel]

but i think we all agree that we'll be very happy when the server wiping stops being a constant thing

[golden coral]

So, to me it's more that you use all of it, utah pounces for bleed, then bites to keep bleed while gaining stam for more pounces

[thin mantle]

Hell yeah

[golden coral]

No more lose your dino bug.. :p

My poor stego!

[turbid hazel]

it's a bug?

[golden coral]

I think so yes

[turbid hazel]

how has something like that not been fixed yet wtf

[thin mantle]

If you don’t run off to get stam you can’t be of use, bite does negligible damage and you need to spend stam to utilize it. No herbi will let you walk up to them for a bite

[golden coral]

They don't know how to fix it yet, or haven't pushed that patch I guess

Or it takes more work to fix it

[turbid hazel]

if they managed to do it in legacy and with them saying how horrible legacy code is idk how it would be super hard in current but i'm not a coder so

[golden coral]

Sure you can be. You're done pouncing, you still have enough stam to dance and bite. So you keep the pressure while the next packmember pounces, and around you go? Point was more so that both pounce and bleed does serve a purpose together in a hunt, or at the very least can do so.

[tacit oriole]

Bites don't keep bleed, just prevent them from regenning

[golden coral]

That's what I mean..

[tacit oriole]

Actual bleed form bites is negligible

Ah, gotcha

[golden coral]

You keep the target from being able to regen blood pool by keeping the wound open

As such, it will just lose more and more blood from the new pounces

While one of you makes sure it has a hard time to try and recover what is already lost

[thin mantle]

Considering the stam nerf to running I can’t see your point. This hasn’t worked as a strategy before for me and that’s mainly due to the speed nerf. It’s very easy to see a Utah coming and hard counter it.

Plus this only works against stegos

[golden coral]

Maybe it's just worked better for me then. And well, stegos would be the easier target, that makes sense, but I think it'd work vs teno or carno too, though it's less needed there, since bleed is lethal, despite belief to the contrary :p

[thin mantle]

Oh I don’t deny that, bleed is very strong. I’m more so referring to how it requires time to take effect and Carno and teno can easily kill most of the pack in that time

[golden coral]

And I've always had enough stam left from a pounce unless I mess up to dance around, so not sure on the nerf there. Speed also seems to work for me at least.. :p

Well, there is that issue with inertia right now so there is that

[wintry mountain]

intertia aye and well

Mid tiers themselves are a very valid counter

[golden coral]

Teno is slower, that should be escapable, especially if it's now bleeding and being harassed by someone else. Carno is a bit more iffy for obvious reasons, but even so

[wintry mountain]

Pounce is always going to be more effective against slow moving less reactive animals

[thin mantle]

If it were gone I prolly wouldn’t have many complaints

[wintry mountain]

Mid tiers are, anything but that

But I do agree

Inertia is a big issue

[golden coral]

Yes well, go yell at the green man here! ^^

[thin mantle]

With teno I’m talking about how easy it is to position teno, and that it Insta kills utahs

[turbid hazel]

screams at green man

[thin mantle]

Yells in direction of green man

[ocean wagon]

If Utah was had it’s old agility, I really wouldn’t see that much of a problem with it

[wintry mountain]

Tbf, if you swarm a tenonto

It drops p damn quickly

[golden coral]

Slam doing both damage and CC is dumb. Leave it for CC, let the teno then kick or swipe to do damage, and maybe look over the damage a touch. Same for that carno charge.

[thin mantle]

Yeah same, inertia was a mistake

[wintry mountain]

Carno is the bigger two between it and tenonto

[ocean wagon]

I back kicked 2 utahs at once

[wintry mountain]

Kek

[thin mantle]

Well it should still deal damage, that would be like rex having an attack that only breaks bones

[tacit oriole]

If utahs have enough of a number advantage they can kill tenos, but the more tenos there are the worse th matchup gets for utahs

[wintry mountain]

Honestly I would like to see tenos tail become more of a cc tool like it was ment to be

Well yeah, expecting to wipe an entire group of em isnt gonna happen for obv reasons

[tacit oriole]

4 utahs vs 1 teno it has to treehug

[golden coral]

Fair, damage is fine, but I think it would be nice if it was the main CC and then you'd reposition with swipe (since you can turn anyway), or kick if you slammed someone close enough, to finish them off

[tacit oriole]

12 utahs vs 3 tenos and it's pretty GG for the utahs

[thin mantle]

Yeah tail slam should deal damage, but less than kick

[ocean wagon]

Speaking of tree hugs, for the love of god make the tree hit box smaller

[golden coral]

That makes some sense though, no? :p

[tacit oriole]

Yeah but I don't like the idea that easy counter to Utah is find a friend

[golden coral]

A rare moment, we agree on something! :p

[thin mantle]

I think the problem I keep running into rn ( I know ai will fix this) but I have a hard time even making it to adult with no available prey

[tacit oriole]

Maybe people are ready for my teno nerf suggestion now

[thin mantle]

Oh come on it’s not that rare😂

[tacit oriole]

Though given fractures any suggestions made now are unlikely to be actioned in any way

[golden coral]

Well, that kind of goes for everything to be fair. Numbers do have their advantage. And some benefit more from it than others at that.

[thin mantle]

If teno was nerfed it wouldn’t really be viable anymore, it’s just strong enough to fight carnos

Which it quite literally has to be good at

[tacit oriole]

Teno vs carno favours teno atm

[golden coral]

I think it sort of have to, since they can't run away from the carno

[tacit oriole]

and imo given the extra challenges carnos face around food, isn't fair

[golden coral]

It would maybe be better if they did have to do a retreat though

[tacit oriole]

I think it was fine before

Carnos got nerfed a lot harder than tenos this patch

[golden coral]

But they need to have a way to survive, since the carno sets the encounter

So either running or fighting

[tacit oriole]

I still maintain it was fine before, but I didn't play as much teno as some

[golden coral]

I think it was, personally, but people did say if a carno and teno were equally skilled, the carno always won so

[tacit oriole]

In artificial fights 3v3 carno vs teno usually ended in carno victory before this patch, now it's almost always teno winning

Yes, artificial fights remove ambush and such, but there is very little opportunity for ambushing anyway against decent players, plus tenos usually have stegos nearby

[golden coral]

Mixherding.. :p

I'm pretty sure people know my opinion on that one by now, so I'll spare you that :p

[ocean wagon]

I’m 50/50 on mid herding

Like for ex

Dryo and stego I really don’t care

[turbid hazel]

a teno would probably go with other hadrosaurs

[golden coral]

Yeah. Mostly it's an issue when both parties add to the conflict

[turbid hazel]

not stego

[ocean wagon]

But if you have a shant, trike, and theri defending each other

[golden coral]

And can cover each others weak points and all that

[ocean wagon]

Just ALT f4

[turbid hazel]

like a teno and a shant seems legit and fine idc

[ocean wagon]

Teno isn’t a hadro though

[tacit oriole]

Once diets are out tenos won't hang with stegos as much. Stegos eat way to much to coexist with haha

[golden coral]

Yeah

[ocean wagon]

So they say

[golden coral]

Should also cut down on stego herds hopefully

[tacit oriole]

Grazing is so OP for herbis

[turbid hazel]

it isn't?

[ocean wagon]

I don’t take the devs word as law until the actual content is in my hand

[ocean wagon]

No

It isn’t

[golden coral]

It's an iguanodontid I believe

[turbid hazel]

paleo shit is at it again

[golden coral]

xD

[ocean wagon]

Yeah it is

[turbid hazel]

curses in it being really complicated

[golden coral]

Apparently so is dryo.. now that's strange xD

[tacit oriole]

https://c.tenor.com/DIis1-A9ST0AAAAM/big-brain-pulp-fiction.gif

[ocean wagon]

Hadro are (or should be at least) normally forest/plains creatures. Teno is supposed to be a marsh/swamp dwelling Dino

But they made teno a horse on steroids instead of a water Buffalo

Smh

[turbid hazel]

i don't know if i could see teno like that ever

[ocean wagon]

Bc they made it a horse on steroids

[golden coral]

Teno semi-aquatic, instead of swiping at utahs, it just grabs them and drowns them? :p

[tacit oriole]

I mean, they gave it a fast swim and heaps of swim sprint

[ocean wagon]

Drown the Utah’s

[tacit oriole]

Teno can sprint swim for longer than it can run sprint lol

Bit silly

[golden coral]

But yes, it was supposed to be swimming into the swamps for plants and all

[turbid hazel]

seems legit

[golden coral]

Not if their proper food is on little "islets" in a swamp :p

Don't want to spend too much time there, lest the big hungry gator gets you

[tacit oriole]

Before this last patch it could actually outswim deinos iirc

Over long distances, anyway

[golden coral]

Sounds reasonable honestly, since a deino can just.. approach and grab while swimming

[tacit oriole]

Plus dive and ambush

[golden coral]

Herd swimming to the islet, suddenly one of them just gets taken away :p

Should be a thing honestly

[tacit oriole]

I'd love to see tenos able to duck-dive for water weeds and stuff

But then they could see through water and it would be a bit OP

[golden coral]

I think that is probably for some of the semi-aquatic ones we're getting

[ocean wagon]

Tenos IMO should be in grouped of 6-7 I’d love to see a herd crossing and then BAM a deino drowns one

Like in the trailer

[tacit oriole]

Just plop and a teno is gone

Where's Bob? He was right here a second ago

plop

[ocean wagon]

Tenos should have a slightly better oxygen range for something that’s supposed to live in a swamp environment

[golden coral]

You're not swimming underwater? :p

[ocean wagon]

“Slightly”

[golden coral]

And it's not so much living in that area, as going there for good food every now and then I think

Fine, I guess that could be okay

[ocean wagon]

Only reason I say that is if a sub deino grabs you and runs out of stam, you should at least be able to survive making it to the surface of the water

[golden coral]

Yeah, that's reasonable

[ocean wagon]

If the devs also really want to balance off the ecosystem, they should plan off all the small herbivores that they’re going to add to the evrima branch of the game, and starting pushing them to the priority list

We don’t necessarily need more carnivores for the ecosystem when the herbivore population essentially consist of 2 dinosaurs. And no I’m not counting hypsi and dryo because no one plays them due to poor mechanics or lack there of.

[tacit oriole]

People need viable matchups as both herbivore and carnivore. Few people are happy to just survive and stay hidden

[golden coral]

Dryo should be fine. Hypsi is.. well, hypsi

[tacit oriole]

You could live forever out in the corners as a dryo or hypsi, but that isn't fun

Hypsi is what you respawn as when your teno dies and your friends are still fighting... Lol

[golden coral]

More so because surviving requires very little, but I don't think there's any unviable matchup in the game, assuming inertia and that gets worked on.

[ocean wagon]

This is literally what I do as dryo LMFAO

[golden coral]

Otherwise things are viable. At least grown ones.

And yes, they do need to plan out the ecosystem properly

But.. well, experience says their plans tend to change

[tacit oriole]

Haha well I'm glad there is a playstyle there for you at least

[golden coral]

Good dryos are heard but never seen? :p

[tacit oriole]

It is fun playing bait-the-utah as dryo

Was more fun when you could punish missed pounces though

[ocean wagon]

me setting a 15 minute timer to get food and water and afking watching a series on Netflix = good gameplay

[golden coral]

xD Well, there's, as we know, no gameplay loop in the game

[tacit oriole]

Could you multibox and raise my stego too? Thanks

[ocean wagon]

Stego is just as easy because the hunger drain is soooo slow

[tulip star]

^^ I legit timed the water drain for all creatures and just set a timer on my phone for whatever I’m trying to grow so I can come back to the computer

[ocean wagon]

And you can just graze

[tacit oriole]

It's 30min for everything except deino, easy peasy haha

18min graze, 30 min drink for stego

[tulip star]

Yeah or u could just do autograze

And never lose any hunger

[golden coral]

You guys having the luxury of having a pc being able to run something more than the game without dying.. :p

[ocean wagon]

I really wish they add a better way for you to defend your kids though. Bc it’s literally me telling them “run in a bush and wish for the best” and stegos don’t even have that luxury

[tacit oriole]

Oh god. The stego gravitational well

[tulip star]

@golden coral it’s really easy actually

FPS lock it to 1 FPS

[tacit oriole]

No you dumb brats don't hide under my tail ffs

[tulip star]

And set resolution to zero

[golden coral]

The what now?

[tulip star]

That’s what I do atleast

[golden coral]

@tulip starAh. You know, I might have to test that out!

[tacit oriole]

Playing as stego you magically attract babies to you

[tulip star]

^^

[tacit oriole]

Like you leave pond and have 3 by the time you get to shallows

[tulip star]

I don’t know why they gravitate to stego

[ocean wagon]

Yeah I don’t leave my hiding stop till I’m at least 80% and that’s if I want to leave

[tulip star]

Nine times out of ten they end up just dying anyways

[golden coral]

Well, ideally you'd spawn as a juvie and a bit more independent, and only be hatchling while nested, which should, well, have a planned out nest. Nothing wrong there with having the babies hide, I wouldn't say. But yes, mostly it's "don't stay near me, follow from the foliage, and don't come out unless I say so or you are about to starve/dehydrate".

[tacit oriole]

That's what I try to tell them. I've made like 3 courier trips to arch river to deposit babies so far this patch lol

[tulip star]

100% only

[ocean wagon]

Oh yeah I forgot about nesting

Big yikes

[tacit oriole]

Otherwise they just follow you like ducklings and end up getting water by a carno

[tulip star]

Arch river?

[tacit oriole]

And they are soooooo slooooow

[tulip star]

Never heard of that

Is that north east?

[ocean wagon]

Yes

[golden coral]

Oh so that's why they all show up!

[ocean wagon]

No one goes there

[tulip star]

Oh lol yeah

I grow teno there all the time

[ocean wagon]

Same lmfao

[tacit oriole]

Have a look at vulnona.com/game/the_isle

Bah

http://vulnona.com/game/the_isle

It's the river going northwest from middle of pond river

Heaps of stegos and stuff grow there

[golden coral]

@tacit orioleBabies do have a tendency to think they're perfectly safe just because there's an adult around :p

Not taking into account I'm not in a nesting spot or otherwise have any plans for the kids.. but I'm still supposed to care for them because hey, herbis are always kind and caring apparently ^^

[tulip star]

Oh damn I usually just go north east

[ocean wagon]

Actually I guess when nesting does come around, the parents are just going to have to find a really good hiding spot for their young like irl

[tulip star]

And chill there

[tacit oriole]

There was one that kept drinking every 5 minutes and wallowing at pond when there was deino on the river

Then just lay down next to the water

Like

[golden coral]

Arch falls is a nice place, I like the look of the area there

That and the swamp, but most people just stay at pond, the plains, or the entrance of the swamp

[tacit oriole]

At some point you just gotta go you know what? Some lessons need to be learnt the hard way

Yeah, arch river is my favourite area in the whole game.

Especially up above the waterfall

[ocean wagon]

It even has a shallow portion you can drink from

[golden coral]

Back when the swim in air bug was a thing, and I couldn't get down from there with my stego because I had no idea on how to handle the bug ^^

[tacit oriole]

But only one spot, and lots of carnivores swing that way for drinks too, so it's not like shallows

[tacit oriole]

Hahaha

[golden coral]

All I knew was you could for some reason fall to your death

So I was understandably a bit.. wary to say the least

[tacit oriole]

The stego elders say that spot has bad mojo

We don't go there

[ocean wagon]

I just want carno to impale it’s skull on kentro if it tries to charge its body

[tacit oriole]

I'd like to see corpses turn into carrion after 15min or so. Carrion can't be dragged, and not every carnivore can eat it safely. Utahs and deinos would be able to, carnos and ptera risk getting sick

Herbivores close to carrion also risk getting sick

Whole idea is give scavenger Utah a chance to work

And inconvenience KoS herbivores at pond

[wild cove]

So it looks like I was pretty much right that turn intertia was universally applied to different dinos across the board without tweaking it for individual species

Good news is though if they're working on customizing that more, hopefully by Update 4's release, we shouldn't have to suffer with it for long

[tacit oriole]

Is it universal? Teno doesn't seem to have any real changes

[wild cove]

Seems like its been confirmed that the inertia is the same regardless of dino right now yeah

[tacit oriole]

It sucks for dryo but was needed so Utah could hunt it imo

Not that enough players are going dryo for it to be a viable source of food

[vagrant mural]

Inventing something that entirely excludes 2 playables just to make one playstyle for one playable work seems a bit crig

[tacit oriole]

Ya, but something needs to happen until pachy and fractures rolls out

[vagrant mural]

Scavenger Utah still works

[tacit oriole]

Plus it's not entirely excludes - it just becomes a risk/reward. If you are hungry enough, carrion is there, but it just comes with a cost

And it helps to discourage herbivores camping spawn areas and racking up kills

[vagrant mural]

Ok but 15 mins

[tacit oriole]

Noting that is about the despawn timer currently

So food would be staying for longer, not shorter

[vagrant mural]

Also there’s the chance of carnis just farming carrion to drag to herbis

[tacit oriole]

I specifically stated carrion could not be dragged tho

[vagrant mural]

Wait nvm

Wait actually

[tacit oriole]

You could slow drag corpses and leave them to become carrion

[vagrant mural]

Just suicide, boom, herbis are now denied that area

[tacit oriole]

I mean, how much of an issue would that really be

Oh no, here's a 20m circle I can't sleep in anymore

[vagrant mural]

Sending a million hypsis or juvis to constantly harass a herd

[tacit oriole]

On 5 minutes respawn timers? You'd have to be pretty fun committed

[vagrant mural]

If people are committed enough to spamming juvi utahs to bleed something after they die

They’re willing to suicide them as well

[tacit oriole]

Plus herbis are always migrating for food or looking for action anyway. We want to discourage bush camping, remember

Herbis have no reason to camp an area like that

[vagrant mural]

I’m all for getting herbis to move

[tacit oriole]

Now if you could poison drinking areas, sure, that could be abusable

[vagrant mural]

But artificially doing that by making it a ticking time bomb once literally anything dies is crig

Do fish also give carrion

[tacit oriole]

I think we might have different ideas about how effective a single corpse would be

Good question, I would say no

This all assumes that the bodies aren't just going to get eaten, too

[vagrant mural]

Yeah

Also, how fast do bodies rot currently

[tacit oriole]

Fish would stink but wouldn't be a health hazard, same for mammal AI

[tacit oriole]

I thought it was 15 minutes, but I've never tested it

[vagrant mural]

And assuming it takes 15 mins, how long would carrion last

[tacit oriole]

I would say another 10min more

Possibly 5

[vagrant mural]

So 20-25 mins, how much food would it give

[tacit oriole]

I'm thinking about 1/2 to 1/3rd of the food left on it before it rotted

Kinda like legacy corpse system

Same model too, the ribcage and bones

I mean, the easier way would be once it rots, it just decays and loses mass until it disappears, as if compys were eating it

So small corpses disappear quickly, large ones take longer

Hypsi would be like 2min, full deino maybe 20min

[vagrant mural]

So to discourage bush camping, we’re giving certain playables the ability to keep food around for roughly 20 mins, at a fraction sure, but given sometimes people kill multiple enemies, you would have decent quantities of food around for way longer, encouraging them to sit nearby and when they get mildly hungry they get a bite

[tacit oriole]

If a Utah pack can kill a full deino they deserve a 30min picnic imo

[vagrant mural]

Yeah, with the body

[tacit oriole]

And yeah, I would like to see big corpses stay for longer. Let the risk of taking down something like a stego count for more

[vagrant mural]

It’s giving the same amount of food, but goes against what you said about wanting people to move, and denies herbis in a certain range

[tacit oriole]

However I doubt things that size will die very often, stego fishing expeditions and deino cannib aside. In my head I'm imagining a Utah herd roaming around looking for carrion like a stego looks for bushes, each giving only a relatively small amount of food

And I think the map is more than big enough for herbis to be denied a little spot here and there

[vagrant mural]

Given bodies already stick around longer, and they naturally decompose as well as get eaten, chances are if it stumbles across a body it will be the same thing

Also, ngl I really don’t like negation mechanics for existing, and if your gonna give herbis a fuck off you don’t get to be here I think it’s only fair carnis get one

[tacit oriole]

When I still had a stego, I was at pond and there was easily 18+ corpses all around it from tenos and stegos KoS. There was a Utah perched on the rock trying to get a chance to scavenge from a corpse, and tenos were guarding them to stop it

It felt so artificial and... Well, stupid

[vagrant mural]

The isle

[tacit oriole]

Doesn't mean it can't be improved. Let herbivores go around on rampages but also let small carnivores clean up afterwards

[vagrant mural]

They can, I have on multiple occasions stolen snacks while there was a death herd around

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, but with how loud and slow utahs eat that seems very difficult

You can G snatch snacks I suppose, and take even longer

[vagrant mural]

Is the chance for survival lower? Yes
Is it still a shitload of bodies that the killers aren’t gonna eat?
Yes

It’s a simple case of risk reward

Free food or death by thagomizer

[tacit oriole]

As all things are. I'm proposing making it more viable for your average players not limited only to elite ninja utahs and mixpackers

[vagrant mural]

Ngl I suck

But if I can do it

Other people can do it

[tacit oriole]

Well, my experience from the herbivore side felt like it was a lot less possible than your experience from the carnivore side, so maybe I just need to spend more time as Utah and try it

I'd still like to see a mechanic discouraging herbivores from living in a huge carrion graveyard

[vagrant mural]

Eh personally I’m not a fan and never will be of something like that

Let herbis go crazy if they want

[tacit oriole]

I think peoples experience of body stress in BoB gives them a gag reflex of anything that sounds remotely like it in TI

Which I get, but there are far more subtle and sophisticated ways of solving the same issue

[vagrant mural]

That and many, many, bad suggestions (no offense btw I think yours is pretty good I just don’t agree with it)

[tacit oriole]

No offence taken, didn't post it looking for validation, and appreciate the criticism

Also my phone hates me, stupid autocorrect

[foggy arrow]

new born stego one shot my 2 stage utah.....................

[raw sparrow]

get good

[sinful cove]

https://tenor.com/view/tom-hiddleston-loki-thispleasesme-hiddleston-gif-5584648

[cedar shore]

@steel whale you good?

[steel whale]

No I’ve lost to many dinos to deinos and Utah’s where I can’t do anything

[cedar shore]

Mabye just be a bit more careful? lol

[hallow spire]

lol

[ocean wagon]

Well being that Utah can only pin down things 450kgs or under, and deino….well deino is supposed to grab you and drown you

The only thing deino can’t grab is an adult stego

So you being grabbed by a deino as literally anything else just boils down to you drinking at the wrong place at the wrong time

[hallow spire]

^^^^

[tight dome]

@sturdy stone every creature has been experiencing this.

Not only does it take longer to eat, but the amount of food corpses give is dependent on their weight. And it’s kind of thrown everything out of balance. For better or for worse? That’s to be argued. Facing starvation is more of a reality now than ever before, which I think is good for the game.

[pearl elbow]

Maybe not at the time before an update which seeks to change how we eat anyway, so objectively it might not be that great anyway.

Furthermore, @tight dome i disagree with your balance feedback on utah. As your testing must have been flawed if you believe the utah is in a good position this update, from any position that seeks to have a good balanced game at least.

[sturdy stone]

I support taking longer to eat for sure, though I do still think large animals like a stego should definitely provide more food than a dryo. I just find it super odd that an incredibly large animal that doubles in size against current ai is inhaled super quickly. I want to feel more inclined to hunting players, not pass them up in favor of fish or dryo ai cause player food values just don't compare to them.

[grave veldt]

Food values should correspond with their weight imo

[tight dome]

Ok. What’s the type of testing you think would back up your arguement of it not being in a good state?

Because i haven’t had a problem with murdering carnos/tenos after this update. Haven’t gotten after any stegos yet

[primal dove]

carno matchup is fine if the carno is dumb but teno matchup is unplayable

[tight dome]

How so?

[primal dove]

claw attack

way too spamable

and 2 shots u at 360°

otherwise it´s fine

[tight dome]

Hm. I have yet to die to that

[dawn falcon]

Wait

[primal dove]

@vocal minnow it does problem is just that stegos will run towards water/trees or just buck u off in 1s so u cant get the bleed on

[dawn falcon]

The teno matchup with Carno or Utah

[tight dome]

Utah

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

Wait till QA fixed the bleed bug

If the intended bleed is supposed to take a carno down to 20% while BUCKING, imagine the damage to teno

[tight dome]

I think everyone is looking at this from the wrong perspective.

The way me and my group of have been targeting groups of bigger prey like carnos and tenos

[vocal minnow]

But still if he wouldn't do anything the blood damage isn't good at all for utah

[tight dome]

Is picking one and singling it out

Instead of trying to brawl with the whole group.

[vocal minnow]

we pounced the guy on the clip 4 times full

and like 10 head bites and he is still on his feet

He didn't have any stamina left thats why we could pounce him full

[primal dove]

it´s not the more attacks u stack the faster he loses blood, it´s just how much bleed gets stacked

[dawn falcon]

How low do you think he was

Blood wise

[primal dove]

if he doesnt move he wont lose as much blood as if he´s running

[tight dome]

^^^

[primal dove]

it did some serious bleed dmg yea but it doesnt mean he loses blood faster

[vocal minnow]

Yeah but i mean it should be faster, because logically you lose more blood with more injuries

[dawn falcon]

Well

Like I said

The pounce bleed is bugged

It doesn’t deal the proper amount of bleed damage

Gotta wait till they fix it

[primal dove]

yea

[tight dome]

We already do an insane amount of bleed to carnos and tenos

[primal dove]

not if they buck u off in 1s

[tight dome]

I wonder how easy it’ll be when they “fix” it

[dawn falcon]

How long does it usually take to bleed out a carno or teno

For u

[primal dove]

that´s the main problem rn, u put urself into a life dangerous position to use ur special abilty but it just gets countered by 1 button or many other methods

[tight dome]

If everything goes smooth, and my full group of 8 pounces atleast once and dismounts immediately the moment it bucks, a single carno will bleed out in under 5 minutes.

[dawn falcon]

Okay there’s the problem

8 Utah’s required to take down a carno

With better bleed it’ll probably take 3-5 for a carno

Thoug

[stark knoll]

8 utahs is optimal but not required

[tight dome]

Well idk

[stark knoll]

6-8 can take a steg

though carno is arguably a harder target

[dawn falcon]

Yeah I’d say that’s a good number

[tight dome]

More often than not we’re playing with 6-8 people

[primal dove]

8 utahs is sub optimal for a carno maybe for intimidiation

[stark knoll]

its the exact opposite of what utah is good against; big and slow

[primal dove]

4 are more than enough if u know how to bleed it out

[dawn falcon]

Eh

I’d say 4 is ENOUGH

Not more than enough

[tight dome]

We can take on two or three at once with 8, but we always pick one and single it out. That’s where our success lies.

[primal dove]

fine

[dawn falcon]

Carno should be the “oppressor” to Utah

[vocal minnow]

it is already

[primal dove]

to a solo utah yes not to 4 utahs tho, what many utahs dont know is that utah can actually run away from the carno by just zick zacking

[true ginkgo]

8 utahs can take out a stego currently. Let alone a carno.

Yeah the carnos charge needs to do less damage, and the alt bite slowing down. But utahs are functional.

[golden coral]

@dawn falconI still worry on if this is how good bleed is while bugged, 20% from one pounce despite bucking... That sounds way overdone, what's even the point of bucking at that level?

[primal dove]

dont slow it down, carnos and tenos should be punished for not hitting a claw or an alt bite by stamina drain

[golden coral]

Alt bite from the front/sides needs slowing, carno altbite 180 is fine speedwise I'd say. It was stupidly slow before.

[true ginkgo]

Carnos vs utahs will always be messy and bad for everyone involved. Utahs punch up, carnos punch down.

[primal dove]

u make the utahs drop and 20% isnt a lot if are a carno who can just run away

[tight dome]

Like I said before, I think people are looking at it as Utah should be able to brawl with a carno pack.

[dawn falcon]

No, it should be able to take out a pack of 4. I’d say it should be a 50/50, maybe a 40/60. Carno is a small game hunter, meaning it’s designed and SPECIALIZED to hunt you and the rest of the small tier.

[golden coral]

If you have 20% left, it's a lot. If you "only" lose 20%, it's not as bad. Maybe I misunderstood.

[dawn falcon]

A pounce would probably be carnos arch nemesis though

Since it’s designed to hunt you, but not to withstand your ability

[golden coral]

@primal doveI read it as one pounce with bucking would leave the carno at 20% bleed, not cost it 20% bleed. If it's the first, then you're crippled even with bucking from just one pounce, if it's the latter, then it's maybe okay.

[primal dove]

ahh ok yea if ur blood drops to 20% from a SINGLE pounce while bucking then it´s way overdone, true

[golden coral]

Yeah, remains to be seen. I may have misunderstood how the green one phrased it :p

[dawn falcon]

Well I assume he meant by like a full pounce. Though you won’t see many full pounces since you’ll have to dismount, meaning you’ll probably deal give or take a half-pounce instead

[tight dome]

All I know is, the way Utah is right now me and my pack have had a lot of success with hunting them in small groups

Mega packs are a different story

[dawn falcon]

Here’s the statement

[dawn falcon]

Thanks Soad

[golden coral]

Drop to 20%

Which to me sounds like even with bucking, you'd be left with 20% of your total blood

Hence the "crippled"

[dawn falcon]

Well, he didn’t explain whether or not he means a full pounce or not.

So it’s left to be interpreted

[golden coral]

Enough to cripple even if you buck

By the other screenshot

Which would mean not a full pounce (full stamina) since you'd be bucked off

That's why it's a bit tricky to interpret what it means or would mean

[dawn falcon]

Either, he means fully pouncing a carno WHILE it’s bucking, meaning you’ll get knocked off afterwards, or he means by a half pounce. Though I hope it’s not the ladder

Hopefully a half pounce will only bring a carno down to 60-50%

[golden coral]

Well if the carno bucks, you can't do a full pounce, assuming we mean full pounce = use all your stamina, with no buck drain

[fathom obsidian]

i think he was referring to 2 utahs pouncing tho

not just one

[dawn falcon]

I meant a full pounce as in, while being bucked off, you fully deplete your stamina WITH the drain.

[fathom obsidian]

iirc

[dawn falcon]

I’ll search for the statement then

[golden coral]

Even so, leaving the carno at 20% only from that one pounce seems harsh. Leaving it with a 20% blood loss seems fine, that's still a good chunk out and should limit it's ability to chase/defend against more of you.

[dawn falcon]

Well

If it’s a half pounce it won’t be nearly as bad as a full one

Though I have no idea how much bleed damage it’ll deal

Okay

Found the statement

He means multiple Utah’s thank god

[golden coral]

Well then it seems more reasonable

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

[fathom obsidian]

yeah he was referring to 2 utah pouncing

and getting bucked off

[dawn falcon]

If he means two Utah’s being bucked off (meaning they use their full pounce) and it brings a carno down to 20% blood that’s more reasonable

[fathom obsidian]

im like 80% sure maybe he can confirm it

[dawn falcon]

Cause the Utah’s would probably die

But the carno would be down to one full pounce left

So either he books it or kills the two Utah’s

[golden coral]

I think the problem here is that full pounce to me = no bucking involved. And I don't think the difference between getting off/vs falling off is that great in pouncing time, so it shouldn't do much, if you leave a second or two earlier.

[fathom obsidian]

btw all this talk is obsolete now since we know bleed is currently bugged, we gotta test again when its fixed to see if its still too low or no

[golden coral]

True enough

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

[fathom obsidian]

so we gotta wait a bit then

how you guys feel about teno?

[spare badger]

Uh

Teno is fine

Because carno and utah got nerfed

It's in a good place

[frosty heron]

Why that sounds like Teno was bad prepatch Lol

[spare badger]

It was ok pre patch

[frosty heron]

Because it wasn't, prepatch Teno was actually better than current

[fathom obsidian]

i mostly agree but it feels like good at everything now, teno got to keep 2 damage untouched

[spare badger]

But carno just did too much damage

For a not brawler

So now I feel like it's better

[frosty heron]

It got nerfed speed and stamina which makes endurance hunt Carnos not as viable

[fathom obsidian]

i like the fact a carno can only kill a teno if it lands the charge, if not teno has a massive edge

[spare badger]

Yea

[fathom obsidian]

as it should

[spare badger]

Exactly

[fathom obsidian]

but also i like the fact that if you get ambushed you are fked

[spare badger]

Carno should need to ambush larger targets

Yea

[fathom obsidian]

give clear win conditions you know?

[spare badger]

Reminds me of Disney's dinosaur

[fathom obsidian]

thats good design in my opinion

[spare badger]

The first scene

[spare badger]

Ye

If the teno is aware itll be fine

[fathom obsidian]

probably utah vs pachy will be also like that

[spare badger]

Ye

[fathom obsidian]

it pachy lands a ram, utah is dead cuz stun and fractures

[spare badger]

If it gets a pounce it'll hurt a lot

[fathom obsidian]

if the utah dodges and manage to land a good pounce the pachy is done

kinda thing

im a fan

[spare badger]

Well
Not done per se
But close to it

I like that

[fathom obsidian]

yeah well you get it, both got their win conditions which is good

[spare badger]

If the herbi is aware it will live
Which makes sense

If the carni pulls off a good ambush it has the advantage

[frosty heron]

Easier win conditions to herbs, as always

[spare badger]

Ehh

[fathom obsidian]

its fine i like the challenge

as both

basically i like if you play better you win type of gameplay

[frosty heron]

I like the challenge but honestly being aware of your surroundings is stupidly easy compared to land good ambush

[fathom obsidian]

so im a fan of those type of fights

[frosty heron]

Unless you're typing in chat were most people gives a carnivore valuable seconds

[ocean wagon]

If pachy will be able to buck Utah, then Utah’s pounce drain for pachy shouldn’t be that fast

[fathom obsidian]

he will buck thats already a thing

[ocean wagon]

Right, but Utah’s stam shouldnt drop like a rock if pachy is bucking

[fathom obsidian]

you know what would be fun but super op? if pachy headbutt a tree with a utah latched on then he sends the utah flying lol

[ocean wagon]

If anything that would just do more harm to the pachy

[fathom obsidian]

yeah, a trade then 🙂

utah take fall dmg pachy hurts his head

[golden coral]

Pachy knocks down tree, tree falls on utah ^^

[fathom obsidian]

lol

[ocean wagon]

Utah then ALT f4

[ocean wagon]

Having a curved 10 inch claw kicking in your sides/gutting you out, suddenly ripped out of you doesn’t sound like a good trade

[spare badger]

It makes sense
And you know what you're signing up for when you pick a carnivore
Most carnivore hunts in nature fail

[fathom obsidian]

yeah thats true

[spare badger]

Damn finally have service again

[ocean wagon]

most carnivores aren’t equipped with 10 inches curved claws meant to grapple and pull your insides out

[fathom obsidian]

i would love to see guts spilling out with gore update when you get pounced

[spare badger]

Well
That was just par for the course back then

[ocean wagon]

Oh ok

My bad

[spare badger]

But yea

I see your point

Many hunters give up if they're spotted too

Like tigers

[true ginkgo]

It's thought that most either used their claws to pin down smaller prey, or held prey with their arms/jaws while kicking at it.

Not leaping miles into the air to land on top of big dinos to grab on.

[thin mantle]

I can only really write one message cuz I'm at work, but the success rate of carnis irl varies greatly. Lions have an average success rate of 30% whereas Hyenas are around 75%.

[fathom obsidian]

raptors where over equipped for their size, huge claws

[ocean wagon]

Realism isn’t the isle Utah

[spare badger]

Lions use ambushes, hyenas are distance chasers, so I can see why the numbers are like that

[primal dove]

i mean pounce does more damage the lower the enemies weight is right?

[spare badger]

I don't think so?

[ocean wagon]

I think it has a base dmg, that’s it

[true ginkgo]

Don't think so. Ebrima doesn't have the weird formula where you can't damage large things.

[thin mantle]

I know, someone said that irl carnivores rarely make their hunts. So I wanted to dispel that with an example is all 🙂

[spare badger]

I did lol
But yea you're right

[ocean wagon]

Oh god imagine if they added blood running down the side of animals you pounce

[spare badger]

Ooo

[fathom obsidian]

that would be cool

[thin mantle]

That'll be in gore without a doubt

[copper anchor]

The isle New Update Game Play PVP Bugs DEV's PLEASE WATCH https://youtu.be/K_8ftazqohU

[steel whale]

Drinking in ervima is like playing Russian roulette with a half loaded gun

[wraith spindle]

tru

[thin mantle]

Yeah you can't be careful when there is not signs to look for

[fathom obsidian]

i stopped at like and subscribe

[steel whale]

Yeah I don’t fall for the bodies at the side of the river it’s just randomly a deino comes out of the water and kills me and I can’t do anything about it

[thin mantle]

Yeah :/ It's pretty unsatisfying. I don't know if that will ever be changed or if the devs want drinking to essentially have an rng dictated mortality rate

[primal dove]

drinking at pocket pond is like playing russian roulette with a shotgun

[steel whale]

The only way to drink there is to be a baby and drink out of the little pocket of water

[steel whale]

I hope they make the grap escapeble

[primal dove]

or like at the end of the river where a stone protects u

[copper anchor]

That’s fine so you missed the part where bodies disappear and you pounce enemies as a Utah and they can still move and attack you back while you have them pinned… also not being able to pounce targets in water/ being able to pounce a carno if a bother Utah is on his tale.

[fathom obsidian]

so same old bugs

[woeful walrus]

I play as a croc a lot and Utah’s do no damage to me especially on the tail so idk bout that

[steel whale]

Yeah

[thin mantle]

There's no way, how could an animal in jaws that should absolutely be instakilling them possibly escape

[copper anchor]

Guess since they are the same bugs they don’t need to be reported with video?

[spare badger]

They really need to add all types of water bodies
Lakes, streams, rivers, swamps, etc

[fathom obsidian]

they need to be reported until fixed, i just stated im not watching a 10 min vid

also they know, hypno knows aswell about the water stuff

[sleek obsidian]

That’s just because croc has a ton of health. And there’s locational damage

[thin mantle]

Yeah it has nothing to do with weight at all

[copper anchor]

If you are a dev then I asked you to watch but if you aren’t I never asked you to watch but okay

[fathom obsidian]

not a dev but you posted the vid here instead of sending a bug report, so its public

[ocean wagon]

Wouldn’t it make more sense if the Utah’s pounce animation was on top of the adult deino instead of just glitching through the floor while on their sides

[primal dove]

yea when U3 was released I thought utah would be on the back of it lol. Looks so unnatural if it pounces its side.

[spare badger]

Yea

[fathom obsidian]

@copper anchor but yeah those bugs are legit, so good job for the work

[ocean wagon]

Like our feet seem to be kicking the underbelly of the deino which is it’s soft side. Their massive bleed resistance for Utah pounces would make sense if we were in their backs since their backs are essentially armored

[primal dove]

yea, also if we dismount from the top of the deino there is less chance for the deino hitting u while dismounting

[ocean wagon]

New idea

Let Utah’s tackle the mouths of deino

[sleek obsidian]

dies instantly

[ocean wagon]

Not saying you should do it, but a human does have the strength to keep a croc/gator mouth closed. (Minus them thrashing around obviously)

But that was a meme suggestion

[sleek obsidian]

Now I want to see a team of mercs ducktapeing a deinos mouth shut

[ocean wagon]

To quote you

[cedar shore]

Try drink while inside some foliage or go to the shallow river, Ive played update 3 for a long time and only been lunged once

[pearl elbow]

@gloomy ravine the bites and health are said on the character screens other than that the alt attacks are somewhere

[gloomy ravine]

yeah but has someone grew all of them and can share, i dont want to grow all caus ei know i will lose it but colectively we can find out and share new info

i know carno is 200 dmg and 1800 hp
and ptera is 15 dmg and 90 hp

[tender sundial]

i still dont know how to get discord points :<

[gloomy ravine]

thats all i know

[stark knoll]

you need to be on the discord for whichever community server youre playing

[tender sundial]

wha-

[stark knoll]

this is the official isle discord. we don't have any points systems

[tender sundial]

ok-

[cedar shore]

They really gotta add that soon imo

[stark knoll]

what?

what for?

[steel whale]

Uhh yeah becuase an adult carno can be drowned by a 80% deino without being able to escape is fair

[cedar shore]

To show how active you are on this server, its a nice little feature

[winged sierra]

that can be done with server roles

[cedar shore]

You can also compare your ranks to others

??

[winged sierra]

and no we do not need this to become a competitive game

[stark knoll]

you can also just search for message count, really

yea

[winged sierra]

for the love of all that is holy we do not need competitive isle

[cedar shore]

Its only competitive if you want it to be

[primal dove]

ur mistake, deino should be rewarded for waiting so long for a kill

[winged sierra]

you are quite literally adding a points system with which to rank players. It's inherently competitive

[cedar shore]

I just like level systems :(

I dont see the problem with it

[steel whale]

Well it’s just not fair to the carno

[winged sierra]

it adds unneeded goals for people. Instead of surviving and playing the game as intended some will go out of their way to "be the best"

[primal dove]

it is if he´s not paying attention to his surroundings

imo

[cedar shore]

What do you mean?

you know im talking about the isle discord server right?

[steel whale]

I’d weaver that ever person that dies to be grabs are aware of their surroundings

[winged sierra]

some sort of stat tracking like how many footsteps you've made, how long you've been underwater, etc. would be fine

[winged sierra]

then what does that have to do with points??

[cedar shore]

Points for how active you are :P

[winged sierra]

so just mee6

[cedar shore]

yeah

just that

[winged sierra]

oh lol idk ask punch

i thought you meant in game

[cedar shore]

This would be cool though

yeah i saw that

Idk what in game points would be fo

r

[winged sierra]

some people have suggested things like it before

kill trackers, leaderboards, etc

[cedar shore]

I feel like a tracker of "days survived" would be sick

[winged sierra]

yeah or how many hours played as a specific dinosaur

[steel whale]

No I don’t want points for that that’s dumb

[cedar shore]

Kill tracker idk

I love pvp but i dont think thats the way to go

[winged sierra]

simple things like that are cool and don't really affect how someone plays, unless they really want to increase their footstep tracker

[cedar shore]

however i reaally do feel like scars should leave permanent marks on your dinosaur instead of just recovering away

[winged sierra]

yeah dynamic wounds and scars would be cool

[cedar shore]

Its a clear sign that you arent messing around and have survived pleanty of fights

[primal dove]

but there shouldn´t be too many scars otherwise it might screw up combat, but yea the idea itself is cool

[cedar shore]

I feel like there should be some certain plant you can eat if you wish to remove the scars instead

or anything really

[primal dove]

i like that idea

[cedar shore]

Im usually someone who goes into a lot of fights and come out victorious but scarred and i want that to be shown on my dinosaur

[winged sierra]

yeah it'd be an interesting way to gauge who to fight

i remember a few months back me and another carno took down some 15 utahs and were both covered in wounds

would've been cool to have those heal up as scars so as to say "hello i've been through hell and back do not pick a fight with me"

[primal dove]

bloodbath

[fathom obsidian]

battle scarred stat track carno

[alpine plover]

@vocal minnow

What is your post supposed to mean?

@warm forum

Nah stegos tail is fine

20 is too low if anything

Imagine if everything took stamina when biting, that would be insanely unfun right?

[warm forum]

he can whip his tail 20 times before being out of stam

= op

[alpine plover]

How?

Do you not want it to defend itself?

[warm forum]

with that hp 20 is a bit much

[alpine plover]

So you want stego to be unable to defend itself?

[warm forum]

you can one shot almost everything beside croc is that fair?

with 15 whips theyd be fine too

[alpine plover]

Because you have to defend yourself?

15 is too low.

[warm forum]

if you die easily with 20 whips you are doing something wrong my guy

[alpine plover]

Carno doesn't take stamina when biting, utah doesn't, why should stego be punished so hard for usingits basic atttacks?

[alpine plover]

Tail jab is easy to dodge

and you can always just not attack the giant 6 ton herbivore.

Not stegos fault you cant juke

[warm forum]

that tail whip is not a basic attack what you on about

[alpine plover]

It is?

[warm forum]

no its OP as hell

[alpine plover]

How?

[warm forum]

either make it less strong and have ur 20 wips

[alpine plover]

It's slow and predictable

[warm forum]

or less wips

[alpine plover]

Just juke it

If anything, stego should have around 70 whips.

Maybe 100

[orchid coyote]

Stego’s basic is bite aka USELESS and its special is its tail.

[warm forum]

no not really, 20 is absolutely too much for the strength they have alread

[alpine plover]

How?

Stego is the slowest animal in the game

Why shouldn't it be able to defend itself?

If you can't dodge stegos tail, thats a skill issue.

[orchid coyote]

You also have to understand that a stego is like 6 ton and a few ton of that is also muscle which is trained and made for that attack-

[alpine plover]

^

Imagine if rex had to use 10% stamina just to bite

pretty absurd.

[orchid coyote]

Personally I’d prefer a swipe over a jab, but still its easily dodgeable

[sinful cove]

An aoe swipe would be fine draining the stam the current attack uses, the current attack isnt reliable enough to justify it

[thin mantle]

I wouldn’t really change much about stego. It’s reasonably powerful and has enough stamina to defend itself. The only change I would make would be in carnivore mobility, particularly in inertia for utahs. If that was reduced or removed it would make juking a lot more reasonable as a strategy. Otherwise stego is pretty much fine

[thin mantle]

That would be depressingly useless.

[sinful cove]

Stego's jab was pathetically easy to juke in the last patch, i agree the small dinos should be more agile but stego needs a better attack

Or it will go back to ezpz head bite solo because its jab is crazy easy to juke

Also it standing in the water to be immune to terrestrial grapples should be fixed when that happens

[ocean wagon]

i dont really see how stegos tail swing is too slow to dodge? just dont get baited?

[sinful cove]

I mean i dodged it i dont even bother with stego 99.999% of the time

Its too boring to me

Im a shit player and i dodged it

[modest carbon]

decreasing the stamina drain factor and giving steggie 70 jabs would remove the need to be careful with jabs and allow them to just spam it

[ocean wagon]

like if utah pounces you, just buck and then swing mid animation and that a confirmed kill

[sinful cove]

70 jabs is quite excessive but it deserves more than it currently has

[ocean wagon]

and if you're getting baited by a carno as a stego, i suggest dropping stego as a dino to play

[sinful cove]

I dont think carnos even bait stegos do they

[ocean wagon]

there are some that try

[spark pond]

stego's jab is fine now,you just need to time it right, that's the skill part

[alpine plover]

The attack isn't reliable enough to justify 20 attacks

[ocean wagon]

but you have to be bad to fall for a bait from a carno

[sinful cove]

The point is in the last patch utah didnt even need pounce, it should be more agile than it is now but stego also needs better coverage in return

Because it seems for whatever reason utah has lost a bit of its agility

[ocean wagon]

utah vs stego match is is still pretty bad imo. im a stego that will use my enviorment and utahs wont do shit to me

[sinful cove]

Stegos are pretty great at just stuffing themself next to a tree

[ocean wagon]

right so why buff its swing

like you have to be bad if youre dying as a stego in the current meta

a full grown stego

[sinful cove]

I didnt say buff its attack i mean add a swing

Trees should have hitboxes that stop attacks

[ocean wagon]

i was more so referencing the suggestion, not the addition of a new swing

[sinful cove]

And stego should have a swing + jab

I think that while it only has jab it isnt worth the stam drain

[ocean wagon]

im all for stego having another attack, i just dont think its necessary to push one out atm bc they dont really need it

[true ginkgo]

The only thing I'd change about stego is giving it a less powerful tail swing, with a narrow arc but can be used while trotting.

But that's unneeded till the big things come.

[sinful cove]

It being usable while trotting would make it worth the stam cost at least

[ocean wagon]

how about a stego stomp?

[sinful cove]

Ew

That would look funky

[ocean wagon]

no no not its front legs

[true ginkgo]

Stego stomp seems wrong. Their build it wrong.

[ocean wagon]

like for a utah that misses its pounce on the back

instead of utah decent stam to swing

just stomp

[true ginkgo]

also trike, hadros, and cama all get stomp. Don't want the same thing cloned for all herbis.

[sinful cove]

Stego should just have a moderate damage trotting swipe, the jab, and a lower damage but high bleed sweep

[ocean wagon]

well actually ig the back stomp could be tied into trample dmg

so nvm

[sinful cove]

And its shitty bite, but no need for stomps

[true ginkgo]

Jab: Stationary, can hit in a larger arc, high damage, high stam.
Swing: Use while trotting, narrow arc, lower damage, low stam, fast.

RMB is the swing. Alt-RMB is the jab.

[sinful cove]

I guess i should remove my thumbup because 70 is wack i just think about 35-40 would be better for it only having the current jab lol

[golden coral]

@alpine ploverThe fuck are you on about? 20 swings is fine for stego, I'd grant you maybe 25 but you kind of can get that unless you spam, so... it's fine?

[true ginkgo]

20 is fine. The only way for utahs to hunt them is drain the stam. More than that and you flat out can't wear it down.

Hunting one as a max pack already takes like 15-30 mins

[winged sierra]

i'm sorry... 70 swings?

[spark pond]

with 20 jabs, you can kill 20 utahs, you just need to apply a little bit of skill, if you are getting juked that's on you

[winged sierra]

stego is already hard enough to deal with as is, giving it more swings is completely unnecessary for the time being

[golden coral]

It's far from that easy, you can't really count every attack as hitting, in that case it's bad on the attackers part more than on the defender.

[ocean wagon]

the most efficient way to kill stego as a pack of utahs is to get its bleed down to the point where its not regaining stam, so you and your pack can just shred it. 70 swings? you'll never exhaust a stego with that many swings

[golden coral]

It is. But I will grant that there is a point to it because the stego tail attack should be the main, like a rex bite or trike gore. But maybe those attacks will also take stam.

[winged sierra]

i can see where you're coming from, perhaps a few more swings could help

[spark pond]

well it's not like 20 utahs attack a stego all at once every single time, just pointing out what 20 jabs can do

[golden coral]

As it stands, not really, 5 more maybe but not really needed. It was more so the whole "main attack not taking stam" that I'm a little curious on

Since obviously stego won't be the only thing with powerful attacks, especially not when we get the carnis

I guess trike could get a bite too, but well, rex and giga bites.. weaker? :p

[winged sierra]

yeah that's what makes me hold off on saying much about it now. Stego is an apex so it could be shoved around a bit until we have a larger playable roster

at which point we could balance them all out in a similar way, rather than having one or two be suited to an environment with smalls and mids cough cough pre patch

[golden coral]

True true. Perhaps stego could get it's own special ability at that! :p

If all critters are supposed to do something fancy or other

[winged sierra]

i guess only time will tell

[lament cloak]

a few more swings wouldn't hurt, I would say 25-30 (no more than 30), but with 50 or 70 you will never run out

and teno is punished as hard, if not harder than stego for using attacks

[dawn falcon]

@harsh lark Pachy is a poor comparison when it’s literally weighing less than Carno and also the fact Pachy can just break its leg and run off.

[stark knoll]

damage resistance can still exist as well

just lower the locational modifiers

[true ginkgo]

Pachy weighs basically the same as utah. It should be killed quickly by carno if it tries to stay and fight. Carno is dedicated to killing small game.... like pachy.

Pachy should fracture a leg, then turn and dip into the forest while the carno hobbles.

[harsh lark]

Fractures aren't even gonna work like that, a Pachy wouldn't cripple a carno in one headbutt, the legacy cripple system is exactly what the devs intend to avoid. And even if it did a carno would obliterate a pachy in the time it takes to charge up one headbutt.

2 alt bites and one normal bite and it'd be donzo

[dawn falcon]

It’s already confirmed that a Pachy can break the leg of a carno and run off.
A fracture will slow down the carno, allowing you to probably outturn and (maybe) out speed it as you run into the forest.

You’re right

It’s not going to be legacy’s system

But it’s still going to be a HUGE tool for combat

And hunting

And even evading

[tulip star]

You don’t seem to understand how fractures will work

From my understanding, the things I’ve gathered from Filipes streams is that fracture will be a percentage, meaning you have to hit something multiple times in order to inflict a fracture

If I’m correct, that makes pachy v carno very hard to deal with

[golden coral]

Would that not mean that every percentage might add to the effect?

So you might not need to break the leg entirely, just.. cause some cracks, which would then have enough of an effect to shift, at least when it comes to running

[tulip star]

I don’t fully know, but from what I’ve heard it’s a percentage and then it’s the full fracture

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

[tulip star]

So percentage doesn’t actually do anything

[golden coral]

Depends on what "full fracture" means I think

[tulip star]

If I correctly understand it

[dawn falcon]

Doesn’t mean the Pachy can’t FRACTURE it with one hit.
It’s designed around fracturing and surviving.

If not

[golden coral]

What we do know is that it won't be random, and that it won't just be "your leg is broken, you are now utterly useless"

[tulip star]

Filipe said pachy doesn’t fracture carno in one hot

Hit*

[dawn falcon]

When?

The stream?

[tulip star]

It was on one of his streams

I think it was ai and pachy stream in the test level

[golden coral]

From how it was described, a pachy that fractures/breaks a carno leg and then runs will be fine, but if it stays around to fight it will inevitably die to the carno

[dawn falcon]

That was also before testing

So it may have changed

Though take that with a grain of salt

[tulip star]

May, but if it hasn’t pachy is going to get shit on by carno bite speed

And alt bite speed

[dawn falcon]

Yeah that’s how I remember it being described

[tulip star]

Yeah but u have to fracture first

[dawn falcon]

That’s why it’s dependent on if you land the hit successfully, yeah.

[tulip star]

But here’s the thing carno isn’t getting fractured in one hit

Going based off what the devs have said

Maybe it changed I don’t know

[dawn falcon]

We’ve also been going based on what the devs said

[golden coral]

I think that would be down to balancing there

[dawn falcon]

^

[golden coral]

If they stick with how I described it, then the balance would follow that

[dawn falcon]

I’m curious if Pachy has even gone through balance yet

[golden coral]

Meaning that you will be able to inflict fracture well enough, and then get out

[tulip star]

Well there’s the thing with the weight = health thing

[golden coral]

Be it by greater percentage by hit or that it works differently

[tulip star]

Pachy will also get 3 shot

Which I don’t think it should

[dawn falcon]

I think it should

[golden coral]

Maybe it'll have resistance on head

[dawn falcon]

It’s another small tier

[dawn falcon]

That too

[tulip star]

Carno bite force is what like 200?

[golden coral]

Hence, it can go face first much easier

[dawn falcon]

Correct

[tulip star]

Will it have head resistance

[golden coral]

We don't know, it's an idea

[harsh lark]

normal bite is 200, alt bite is 250 for carno

[tulip star]

Because If it doesn’t it’s gonna be hot garbage

[dawn falcon]

Don’t know, but it’d be stupid if not

[tulip star]

Alt bite is 250?

Why tf they give more damage to the alt bite

[dawn falcon]

Yeah alt bite does more damage

[harsh lark]

also its unlikely pachy would tank with head armor when its so small carnos entire bite would phase through its whole body and take the body dmg multiplier first

[tulip star]

Why

[dawn falcon]

Every alt bite does

[golden coral]

Because alts take stamina

[dawn falcon]

Because you consume stamina to use a more powerful attack

[tulip star]

Yeah but I see alts as getting turned around more

Not as more powerful

[dawn falcon]

Wel

[golden coral]

Well, they've made them more powerful

[tulip star]

Kinda dumb lol

[golden coral]

Even if I could agree with you on alt being more so for the turn and range, than just damage

[dawn falcon]

If you turn around, technically you’re throwing your weight down to Create a more powerful attack,

[golden coral]

I don't neccesarily think alts would need more damage, teno swipe being an exception of course

[true ginkgo]

How pachy should work is ram the carnos leg, and maybe take a bite in the process.

Carno is now slowed too much to follow as the pachy woops away into the jungle.

[dawn falcon]

Just like how a rex would stomp at the same time as it bites

It helps keep its balance and create a powerful bite

[golden coral]

Do deino alt do more damage, or what happened with that?

[dawn falcon]

Haven’t tried

[tulip star]

I don’t know if deino alt does more damage

[dawn falcon]

But I’d assume so

[tulip star]

I know it bites faster

But idk about damage

[dawn falcon]

But yeah

I wouldn’t completely throw out the weight = hp idea

[tulip star]

I would

[dawn falcon]

Especially over the fact a lot of the problems are due to bugs

[tulip star]

Shit idea imo

[dawn falcon]

Bleed being one of them

Bucking

[golden coral]

@gentle vaultHow are utahs/carnos/tenos too fast to lunge?

[dawn falcon]

Etc

[tulip star]

I don’t think weight should equal health at all

I think they should be separate entities

Way I see it a 500kg stego should be tankier then a 500 kg Utah etc

I think the health should be based on the creature

[dawn falcon]

Is it not?

[tulip star]

No

They have the same hp

Weight = health

[dawn falcon]

Well Utah does deal 55n aswell as being completely shat on by the stego

Idk

All it takes is 1 extra weight and the Utah can’t pin it anymore

[tulip star]

But what I’m saying is every creature is different from another

[dawn falcon]

Mhm

[gentle vault]

Because players are aware that Deinos might be in the water, it's difficult for anything to come up to the shore and be able to pounce them. That is, if there IS any players coming up to the water at all. I'd be nice to add something like birbs or other ai that actively swim in water now that fish has been nerfed and barely spawn anymore.

[dawn falcon]

But the point of an apex

Is to start out weak

[tulip star]

And some should be more tankier

[dawn falcon]

But grow into a strong af creature

[tulip star]

I’m using it as an example

[gentle vault]

I meant to add that to my sentence.

[tulip star]

Like two very different builds

Utah is skinnier more agile less hp while stego is tankier and slower

More hp

[stark knoll]

you can use locational modifiers to add resistances

[dawn falcon]

^

[tulip star]

I don’t think weight should just equal the hp

[stark knoll]

we already have a variant on that in stego's head multiplier

[dawn falcon]

^

[harsh lark]

in any case, there's no downside to playing apex if you're just completely equal to a similar sized adult creature as a juvi or subadult

[dawn falcon]

Weight = Hp, not resistance

[tulip star]

^^

[harsh lark]

At that point not playing apex means purposely capping your own power potential for no good reason.

[stark knoll]

you can be equal in health, but ideally the juvies damage would be proportionally much lower

[golden coral]

Equal in health does not mean equal in other ways though

[tulip star]

I don’t think a 450 kg Utah and a 450 kg pachy should have the same hp too

[dawn falcon]

Well that’s one similar sized creature which you can take down with other abilities

[dawn falcon]

Why though

They’re equal in power to each other

[tulip star]

I think the health should be veered to the pachy

[dawn falcon]

One mistake could end you

For both sides

[tulip star]

Pachy is slower and bulkier

[dawn falcon]

Bulkier =/= more HP

Teno is bulkier than Carno

Yet it has less hp

But deals more damage

With a bunch of its attacks

[harsh lark]

I wouldnt say teno is bulkier, carno just has longer legs.

[tulip star]

Teno is small af compared to carno what

[dawn falcon]

But you’re saying bulkier

Carno is skinnier

Teno is bulkier

[true ginkgo]

Prior to the weight = health update, a 500kg utah had 3x as much health as a 500kg stego.

[dawn falcon]

^

[tulip star]

I don’t think that should be the case

[dawn falcon]

Huh

[tulip star]

Just change the health values around

[golden coral]

@tulip starI get your point, and I would agree, but then we had the earlier "balance", where stego was fragile and utah was tanky, a dryo had way more health than it needed, and so on. Granted, those could have been adjusted no doubt, but it still seems odd with how it worked.

[tulip star]

That can be balanced

Is what I’m saying

[golden coral]

But yes, they could have just added 3K health to stego, removed 300 from utah and so on.

[tulip star]

Easy fix

[harsh lark]

Adjust the formula for how stats increase with growth. Right now it's not linear so a dino gains most of its stats increases in the last 30% or so of its growth.

[tulip star]

That too

Growth is fucked bad rn

[dawn falcon]

Weight = HP adds another value to weight, so increasing the hp means increasing the weight, which you can balance it out with the ability IF it requires weight. Not to mention, if the HP is too little, just increase the resistance and it solves the issue.

[tulip star]

Juvie you only get speed and subadult you start to gain strength and get slower

I think it should be ur 30%

Aka meaning ur 30% of ur potential

[dawn falcon]

Hold on

[tulip star]

?

[dawn falcon]

I’m still confused

[tulip star]

How do

So

[dawn falcon]

Are you saying a subadult should have 30% of the potential of an adult? Or

[tulip star]

No

If you’re 30% grown

[harsh lark]

That's just over complicating things? If I want a dinos mechanic to work on another dino now i have to buff or nerf someones HP, or if I want to adjust someones HP I have to make sure it doesn't ruin their interactions with another dinos mechanics.

[tulip star]

You should have 30% of the stats of the adult

[harsh lark]

You're forcing two different parts of the game to be conjoined at the hip, which is gonna be disastrous for the long term balance goals of making a 56 dino roster work.

[tulip star]

Not this juvie gains speed better but then sub adult loses speed and gains power

[dawn falcon]

Yeah, which can be adjusted with resistance and (when it becomes a thing), armor

[tulip star]

I think it just complicates the balance a lot

[dawn falcon]

Which is pretty much just resistance

But yeah

[tulip star]

It’s really seen with deino

As juvie almost has the same bite force as hatchling

[dawn falcon]

I see now

[tulip star]

Until it reaches sub adult and then it’s bite force skyrockets

[gentle vault]

Quick question, can I edit my response? The speed of prey items I realize has nothing to do with Deinos struggling atm. You CAN catch just about anything if you time your strike, but almost everything but a Stego or other Deinos gives 20-30 percent food for almost dying in a fight against one. Great risk, great reward. Stego bodies and Deinos bodies should give more food to Deinos.

[tulip star]

So that’s why

Stego didn’t have any hp

[dawn falcon]

Yeah I find that quite odd

[tulip star]

When it was smaller

I noticed it when playing deino a lot

It’s very noticeable

[dawn falcon]

Though that can really just be fixed by increasing how much damage is gained over time and adjusting some stats that scale with growth.

Though that’s odd

[tulip star]

Or just get rid of the formula they have

[dawn falcon]

How Deino as a baby has almost the same stats as a juvie

[tulip star]

The only thing a juvie deino has is speed

Granted it gets a bit more bite force but not much at all

It’s with all creature that way tho

[harsh lark]

Growth should just be exponential tbh, get players out of the boring juvi stage where they have to hide most of the time quickest and keep them in the subadult stage for the bulk of gameplay.

[dawn falcon]

Getting rid of the formula won’t do much
Weight = HP
Not damage or speed. These 2 are both different entities.

If anything

[golden coral]

Better make the juvie gameplay more fun!

Give us things to do as juvies we can't as adults, and so on

[tulip star]

I’m talking about the formula for the growth

[dawn falcon]

Ah

[tulip star]

How u don’t start gaining mass and biteforfe till subadult

[golden coral]

@tulip starKeep in mind, 30% growth = stats of adult would not work with rex

[tulip star]

It’s cool yeah like whatever but is it needed

[dawn falcon]

Yeah I noticed that too

[golden coral]

Now there's one animal that really would grow different stats at different times

[tulip star]

How wouldn’t it

It’s still a rex

[harsh lark]

You're not gonna give every juvi in the game some special ability when the planned roster is 56 playables. Unless your plan is giving juvies some logs and other mini-me only areas to hide in. Not that much different from current bush afking though.

[tulip star]

You have to have some caution

[tulip star]

Also they just nerfed juvies into the ground didnt they