balance-feedback-discussion

[tacit oriole]

if you pounce, wait 30s, pounce, wait 30s, repeat

you expect the total bleed per sec to stack higher and higher, but that doesn't seem to be the case

[golden coral]

I don't think a new bite/pounce would add to the total, just add it's own value and keep the wound open, thus preventing regen?

Or maybe I'm too tired and not quite understanding what you're trying to say here

[tacit oriole]

I think you are getting it - you would expect the new pounce to keep the wound open but it doesn't

So a full length pounce to a standing stego will deal 11% bleed by the time it starts healing

So you would expect if you did a full length pounce, wait 30s, again, wait 30s, again, you would deal more than 33% - since each pounce is keeping the previous one bleeding - but that is not the case

it's like every pounce is a different wound and they don't interact with eachother at all, even if you are pouncing the same spot

[golden coral]

Ah, no

The former one is "healed"

I think the wounds are separate

You're adding a new one, but it doesn't keep the other one, it just keeps the wound open = you can't recover

And I think this goes for all bleed wounds, pounces, bites, or otherwise

[tacit oriole]

Yes, which is counter-intuitive

to me, anyway

[golden coral]

Maybe, to me it does make some sense

Mostly I think because I don't see them as digging the same deeper wound

It's a different wound, so while you're still bleeding, the first wound is healing up

[tacit oriole]

I would agree except if you pounce the same spot a second time

[golden coral]

Ah, but that's.. well, slots

I think that's more of a mechanical thing you know

You bite on the head, or body, we don't have a detailed spot for it, far as I know

[tacit oriole]

I would honestly prefer any damage keeps a bleed open

think about it, you have a huge cut barely scabbed over

what happens if you get it hurt

[golden coral]

Well it does keep the bleed open, just not quite how you mean it

But I think it's down to limitations

Because a bite would do the same, if I bite you in the same spot

[tacit oriole]

normal damage doesn't affect bleed healing at all

[golden coral]

Keep in mind, I could be entirely wrong on how bleed works, this is just how I think I've seen/heard it explained, and how it makes sense to me

So by all means don't trust my word on this all that much

[tacit oriole]

So far testing suggests that is correct, every application of bleed damage is entirely independent of every other application, and nothing stops it healing

[golden coral]

But unless an attack deals bleed, it will not open a wound, even if you have one just healed

Far as I know at least

Which is probably for the best, I think

[tacit oriole]

A wound can't be re-opened, to be pedantic, but you can create a new wound

you do have an overall "are you bleeding" state which prevents regen

[golden coral]

Which makes sense, and adding another bleeding wound to that keeps the state like that, so it's just that you want the next attack to also increase the bleeding if it hits the same spot? Which would make sense if we had spots, and they were difficult enough to repeat on

But I'm sure you can see how pounce with its slots would be, well.. rather easy to "abuse" like that

Since you can not "miss", unlike with a potential bite or so

[tacit oriole]

I want it to work like poison in other games, when you inflict bleed it's a X/sec debuff

[golden coral]

Okay.. now I think you lost me a little

[tacit oriole]

and it will only get removed if you don't take bleed damage to that body part again in X time

[golden coral]

Ah, yeah, I get it. But see above, I think it would be way too easy to use, especially with pounce. And as of right now we don't have bodyparts like that, far as I know

You can't choose to bite utah body here, but not there, it's just body, right?

[tacit oriole]

Well, dinos do have 5 body parts, head, body, tail-base, legs, tail-tip

each has it's own damage multiplier

[golden coral]

Mhm, but pounce has both sides

But only one "body" to count

[tacit oriole]

there's 4 pounce locations

[golden coral]

If you count the locations separately then yes

[tacit oriole]

so a full length pounce is about 10%/minute bleed damage to a stego - if I pounce full length, wait a minute (it heals at 1:15) then pounce the same location again, I want there to be 20%/min for the next 1:15

[golden coral]

So yeah, if you had to repeat the same pounce slot, it could work, but I'm not sure that's a good idea, as stated earlier

[tacit oriole]

So instead of it being "You need 10 full length pounces" you can do it quicker if you are good enough, and you can use mini-pounces to keep them bleeding

[golden coral]

Yeah, I get it, but it's too easy as it stands

But what would a full pounce + a mini pounce yield then?

[tacit oriole]

So you could do the full length pounce (10%/min) and then use mini-pounces to keep that 10%/min bleed going

[golden coral]

Yeah no, that'd be stupidly good from what it sounds like

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, the bleed/min would need to be adjusted heavily

[golden coral]

You'd literally get on/off

It'd be like how it was when utahs just used the impact and never really pounced, or so it sounds

[tacit oriole]

keeping in mind that every mount/dismount is a risk

[golden coral]

Well, dismount shouldn't really be, and sure, mount can be, but, well, I've not found it to be that risky at all

[tacit oriole]

I wasn't around when that was a thing so I'm missing some context

[golden coral]

But then I've also successfully landed 90% of my pounces, so I.. don't see pouncing as hard as it stands

Well, the pounce itself did impact, right, the moment you latch on, you did a decent chunk of damage/bleed for just latching on

So the utahs would just do that, get on, immediately let go again

That was enough to inflict damage and bleed to kill, granted, it obviously took slightly longer than staying on, but well, no bucking risk and so on

And this was when tailtanking was a thing too

So very little risk of death at that

[tacit oriole]

tailtanking?

[golden coral]

First hitbox counted

[tacit oriole]

ah, gotcha

[golden coral]

Tip of tail of utahs from a stego swing

5% health damage

Also why a deino could bite over the entire utah, but do that damage cause it bit from tail first :p

I'd say there should have to be a minimum of staying on before you get an effect, so it's not just jump on/let go of mouse button and get off. Either that or you'd have to severely limit how effective this can be

But then it's hard to say where it would be just this or an actual pounce, so there is that

@tacit orioleAnyway, I need to go sleep. I'm not neccesarily against your idea, if it can be done (though it would be interesting if it worked for bites and stuff too, somehow), but it'd have to be balanced very carefully to not be too good/easy to use and no longer have to rely on getting at least a few full pounces in for some real effect

[tacit oriole]

Having spent most of today in a sandbox trying to kill things as a utah group, I feel like the big issue with utahs atm isn't really their bleed output, or speed, or anything, it's how strong treecamping and sitting in shallows is

all a carno or teno (or stego) needs to do to totally counter pounce is hug a tree or stand in water and you can't get a good duration on pounce, and every dismount runs a serious risk of getting you stuck under their head

stegos can camp in the clusters of palms and you can't pounce them at all

but of course stego tail goes straight through trees

[empty cosmos]

Am I the only person in this discord that thinks that the stam nerf on tenno and carno were way too severe? That and the damage nerf on raptor makes all three unenjoyable now to me

[tacit oriole]

Stamina debuff to carno/teno is news to me, they have the same sprinttimes and teno has the same total slam capacity

[empty cosmos]

They cut carnos stam by a third. Tenno seems to be cut as well but I haven't timed it yet.

[sinful cove]

i think teno just got stam cost added to most of its attacks?

[empty cosmos]

I realized how intense the carno stam nerf was when I swam in the water for a moment to get rid of a swimming animation and after just a couple moments I was at half stam.

[wild cove]

If Teno movement stam got nerfed, I'm guessing it was to counterbalance the previous problem with Teno running down Carno and other things

Not sure on Carno, I haven't played it yet, but swimming was always hard on Carno and Utah

Carno also got a swim speed buff so it might be balanced out with more stam usage

[sinful cove]

if both teno and carno stam got nerfed together then i think it would invalidate the 'teno running down carno' purpose, i don't think either of them needed a nerf honestly

[empty cosmos]

I used to play this game after work every day and since the patch was released it just doesn't feel fun.

[wild cove]

I mean if most everything else got some form of stam nerf, then they probably did, but off the top of my head I don't remember what all got stam nerfs

[empty cosmos]

Raptor stam seems fine.

[sinful cove]

mobility nerfs always ruin the mood, i remember teno was like the only actually good herbi last patch, not sure why theyd change it so much this time around

[empty cosmos]

Carno stam was hit heavy. Tennos seems to be hit as well but I haven't timed it yet as I said before

[wild cove]

I'm guessing because it was a little too good

[sinful cove]

it really wasnt imo

[wild cove]

By itself, maybe not, but 2-3 tenos were constantly wrecking everything shy of adult deino

They could wreck adult deino too if they caught one afk growing on a river bank

[sinful cove]

it was about 50/50 with a lower stam predator faster than it, making an animal awful alone just because groups were KOSing also seems like poor choice

like carno megapacks were also going around wiping people

deino swarms could come on land and be unchallengable as well last patch

[dusky surge]

carno imo having low stam works with its overall toolkit, but I see the problem due to its abysmal trot regen

[sinful cove]

carno trot being so slow made no sense too

its trot speed should have been raised to almost match teno's or its trot regen should have been raised

[wild cove]

But Teno is supposed to be in herds. Again, devs are trying to push people into the intended playstyles

[sinful cove]

nothing should be balanced to be trash alone

[empty cosmos]

In my experience, carnos are the most difficult to grow to adulthood but there was a payoff. The payoff doesn't seem there anymore.
So I thought of switching to raptor, who now hits like a limp noodle.

Then I tried tenno but as the stam was draining seemingly much faster I just gave up.

I like deino and steggo. They're cool. But they're really slow gaming experiences imo and I get bored of them quick.

[sinful cove]

balancing something around only being viable in a group makes it much less likely to even find a group

especially on the already less populated faction

[dusky surge]

exactly, only people i've found people playing utah are mixpacking cannibals recently, sadly

[sinful cove]

utah doesnt have enough small shit to hunt alone yeah

[empty cosmos]

^ I've seen MUCH more cannibalism in raptors and carnos

[sinful cove]

honestly these changes could/should have waited for a more complete ecosystem

[empty cosmos]

I think so too.

Honestly? I miss the land crocs

[dusky surge]

I'm happy that herbis are finally being worth play over the far superior carnis, but it just feels like there aren't enough creatures to fufil certain niches

[sinful cove]

utah getting a smaller hp nerf and stego getting an hp buff, carno bite nerf and charge buff would have been fine i think, but this stuff we have now is all a bit severe for the timing

oh and the deino alt bite shit, that was awful before

utah got turned into a paper bag of hp when there isnt much small game to hunt alone

[wild cove]

Utah does need a bit of love now yeah but my point being that making it so a Teno is so OP it actively hunts down and slaughters everything is a bit much

[empty cosmos]

The most confusing thing to me is nerfing the runners while buffing the health of steggo and deino

[dusky surge]

thats the thing, even with more small game, it still makes utah just another small-game hunter, solidifying it as carno-lite. Something NEEDS to be done to seperate utah from becoming a carno clone in terms of place in the ecosystem

[sinful cove]

stego was trash tier last patch tbf

[wild cove]

Also nerfing juvies significantly

Makes little sense

[sinful cove]

now though with the nerfs on the other end it seems severe

[dusky surge]

personally, i enjoy lots of what was done with this patch, but I just don't find much joy in playing utah

[empty cosmos]

The hunger also seems to be just excessively nerfed. Last patch had issues but I don't think it needed the massive upheaval of changes

[hallow spire]

[sinful cove]

they could have held off on reducing the speeds across the board by letting juvies keep their original speeds while the adult stages got the reductions

[dusky surge]

If a trike exists, and utah was designed specifically to fuck up trikes, that'd be fine. I see a pack of utahs causing hell to a trike personally.

[wild cove]

Honestly I think the main problem is that if Utah gets buffed too much, people will hunt everything else anyway because its safer by default. So its difficult to buff it enough to be a menace towards its intended prey (Teno and Stego), and then have Utah actually hunt what it specifically is supposed to

Diets will help with pushing people to hunt their intended prey hopefully

[sinful cove]

as long as hunting is enough of a challenge, that is

[empty cosmos]

I loved raptors and carnos last patch. I thought it was balanced beautifully.

[sinful cove]

if it is easy to kill something that goes against your diet people will mass kfs regardless

[wild cove]

In the meantime though, Utah is in a weird spot because if you buff it too much, its not going to favor what's most likely to kill it, because players don't want to lose progress

[dusky surge]

Unlike a stego, trikes cannot cover 75% of their body, they would be easily subject to flanking by a utahraptor

[crystal wharf]

fun fact
utah is perfectly balanced right now
people just dont like change

[wild cove]

Balanced against each other, maybe. Not so much with everything else

[sinful cove]

i feel like styraco will be a lot better of a counter against smalls than trike, best they can do for trike is good stationary turn and thick skin i guess

assuming styraco isnt cancelled

[empty cosmos]

Well. At the very least at least I can say I was here last patch and had a massive amount of fun before it ended

[crystal wharf]

styraco using its frill spikes to counter attacks to its side and rear wen?

[dusky surge]

bork i know you have a massive hateboner for utahraptor but you don't need to make shit up because others can clearly see how dirty he was done

[sinful cove]

styraco is the escalated version of "when somebody touches your neck" against utah pounces

[empty cosmos]

Right? I think a ton of people hate carnos/raptors.

[crystal wharf]

i actually play utah more than any other animal in evrima
utah is fine

[empty cosmos]

??????????

[crystal wharf]

people dont like change

[wild cove]

To be fair, any half-decent Utah or Carno were easily cheesing basically everything but adult Deino before. There really wasn't any challenge to either of them past fresh spawn stage

[crystal wharf]

they dont like that they cant nuke a stego in 5 minutes with overtuned stats

[wild cove]

And a lot of people are mad they can't just mindlessly cheese everything else now it seems like

[empty cosmos]

Stego was an extremely hard match for carno as well as deino

easier for raptors

[sinful cove]

last patch stego was ezpz for deino

[crystal wharf]

https://tenor.com/view/woody-toystory-please-laughing-lol-gif-4410695

[wild cove]

Pretty much that, yeah.
"Utah is unplayable. Pounce only does 10% bleed damage"
Its a 450kg animal pouncing a 6000kg animal? Of course its going to take lots of pounces to bring it down

[sinful cove]

deino absolutely curbstomped stego with alt bite

[wild cove]

Deino used to curbstomp EVERYTHING with alt bite

[sinful cove]

beyblade croc

[empty cosmos]

I just think the nerfs were extremely intense; beyond tweaking

[wild cove]

Now it actually has to be worried about a few psuedo apexes

Which is a healthy change imo

[dusky surge]

I'm not saying it SHOULD nuke a stego, I'm saying that it can't fucking do jackshit against anything bigger than it as it stands and is essentially carn lite, hunting babies and only babies

[wild cove]

Until we get a bigger roster

[crystal wharf]

they needed to be intense
utah was overtuned as fuck

[sinful cove]

utah and dryo were soloing stegos last patch idk how it is now

i know dryo got demolished this patch

[wild cove]

Which Utahs SHOULDN'T be soloing stegos

Dryo, sure

[sinful cove]

yeah especially since they soloed them with bites lol

[crystal wharf]

alright
hear me out
utahraptor
pack animal
hunts in packs
if used correctly, and when the bugs with inertia and bleed are sorted
its going to be able to murder stegos just fine
and maybe
just maybe
choose your battles, and dont fuck with carnos

[sinful cove]

carno is supposed to be sort of a counter for animals in utah's size range anyway

[empty cosmos]

Carnos arent intimidating to run away from as raptor anymore.

Their run time was cut by a third; a couple zig zags and they will have to sit down to regain stam.

[wild cove]

...that sounds like a contradiction to the whole "Utah needs to be able to fight fairly against Carno and now it can't" argument

[empty cosmos]

No

[crystal wharf]

good
carno shouldnt be trying to sprint utahs down, they should try and hit them like the freight trains they are

[dusky surge]

I got on a test server with a ton of other guys, just to test how well a full pack utahs would do against a stego. Stego immediately went into a plain bush, stood there and was surrounded by small trees and bushes. Any attack we did would immediately be brushed off by the stego and we'd die. We tried any and all counterplay, but the steg legit just immediately figured out how to ensure utahs never kill you again

[empty cosmos]

Running away

[sinful cove]

utah is carno food you are supposed to run away from it

and carno is supposed to ambush you

[crystal wharf]

this again goes into that choosing your battles thing
this was the stupidest shit you could have done
its like fighting a deino in the middle of the ocean

[wild cove]

That's the thing is Utah isn't supposed to be a tanky brawler... its a coordinated pack hunter that takes things down with group strategy

So use group strategy

[dusky surge]

you realise how easy it is for any stego to end a fight with a utah? Find any tree (there's a lot in this game, trust me) and you've essentially won the fight.

utah is almost entirely incapable of large game hunting because any creature with 2 braincells can find an easy place to hard counter

[crystal wharf]

hear me out
then dont fight the stegos that have their sides facing you, and their other side towards a tree
revolutionary thought right?

[harsh lark]

Stupidest comparison you could of made. The stego situation is essentially if the deino could walk 5 feet and slip into an ocean on any part of the map.

[dusky surge]

so, don't fight any smart stego who will approach trees the moment they see you? Not like utah has the damage or bleed efficiency to stop the stego before it reaches a tree

We're relying on a player being bad to win a fight

[crystal wharf]

good thing a lot of stegos arent very smart then

[dusky surge]

lmao

[crystal wharf]

you approach something in the perfect place to defend itself
and you're surprised when it ends poorly?

[dusky surge]

actually balanced around how dumb the players are, incredibly done. Why have a fair matchup when you can assume that one party is just stupid

[harsh lark]

It's not a perfect place though? It's literally just standing near any object with collision on the map that lets you bug out utahs pouncing you. You say that like a "Perfect place" is something hard and difficult to find and reach.

[crystal wharf]

hey, something you might not have noticed, in this right here
and when the bugs with inertia and bleed are sorted
there is issues with the game itself currently, not just utah
utah in general is fine

[wild cove]

I mean PvP does rely on some level of intelligence, yes lol

At least good PvP does

[harsh lark]

PvP should be balanced around players of equal skill level, not hand waved with "Go find someone whos bad then"

[dusky surge]

Exactly

[crystal wharf]

alright
so if a rex and hypsi are equal skill it should be an even fight right?

maybe a rex vs 20 equal skill hypsis

even fight

[harsh lark]

Stop the strawman arguments and say something worthwhile please.

[wild cove]

Skill level implies you've practiced. So, practice?

[crystal wharf]

its not a strawman argument
if 4 utahs should down a stego
shouldnt 20 hypsis down a rex?

[dusky surge]

what the fuck is this argument

[harsh lark]

You're trying to get me to answer something pointless lol. Stop comparing a pack hunter to a tiny herbivore.

[dusky surge]

this is actually the dumbest thing you could have responded with

lmao

[wild cove]

Its really not, if the complaint is a tiny utah can't solo a giant stego

[crystal wharf]

alright fine
15 velociraptors

[dusky surge]

is not at all the complaint

[harsh lark]

When were utahs soloing stegos last patch?

[turbid hazel]

this

[crystal wharf]

last patch

[harsh lark]

show me

[turbid hazel]

at least it doesn't have 1k hp anymore

[crystal wharf]

motherfucker do you expect me to have that stuff on hand?

where is your proof that a stego next to a tree is unkillable huh

show me

do it

im waiting

[hallow spire]

[wild cove]

The only two complaints I'm seeing is

1. Utah can't roflstomp Stegos so its bad
   and
2. How dare Utah actually require skill because other players have skill

Both are pretty silly arguments tbh

There are a lot of bad or dumb players in the Isle

They're not really that hard to find

[crystal wharf]

there is also bugs with inertia and bleed currently in the game

[dusky surge]

No, the complaint is Stego can invalidate an entire pack of utahs by sitting in a bush and occasionally pressing RMB

[harsh lark]

Nice deflection, still waiting though. But to answer anyways we did just discuss how a stego next to trees is unpouncable due to the collision bugs.

[wild cove]

Then hunt something else

[crystal wharf]

show me

[wild cove]

Every time I'm in the Isle there's 3-4 stegos or tenos in open fields with barely any trees or bushes

[harsh lark]

Play the game

[crystal wharf]

Nice deflection, still waiting though.

[wild cove]

Saying "I can't hunt Stegos, because trees!" is dumb. Go find a Stego not camping next to a tree

Or a teno

Or Dryo

Or literally anything else

Sorry to say but there's no way for the dev's to balance the game against stupidity

[harsh lark]

Find stego in the open. Pounce it with 4 utahs at once. It immediately bucks everyone off and runs to the nearest set of trees before anyone can get their stam back.

[crystal wharf]

are you seriously get outran by a fucking stego?

[dusky surge]

"Go find a stego not camping next to a tree"
You realise in the time it takes for a utah to even do anything to a steg, that steg is def within range of a tree

[crystal wharf]

it takes 7 seconds for a stego to buck off a solo utah
thats 7 seconds for your brain to fire the signals required to let go of right click

[wild cove]

Not if its in an open freaking field in Center, which enough of them are to find one you could hunt lol

Or again

Hunt something else

Like a dryo or teno or hypsi

or Ptera

You have options

Game "balance" shouldn't revolve around user error and making dumb decisions

[harsh lark]

If you look at the map you might notice the open field in center is littered with patches of bushes + trees, any of which work for the stego.

In any case, you keep droning on about hunting something else but have you considered the experience from the stegos side of things? How is stego fun when nobody bothers hunting you because they literally can't? I play herbivores to be hunted, that's where I get my enjoyment out of it.

[crystal wharf]

stegos were hunted for over 8 months (if i am counting right)
and were being hunted a lot
let me tell you they were not having fun

[wild cove]

If you want to be hunted so badly because that's fun, then just walk away from trees, since that's apparently the big hangup of why no one will hunt Stego

[crystal wharf]

some people play stego to be stego
not a slower
worse
unable to hide
loud
and functionally useless version of tenonto

[wild cove]

If you want to encourage a certain playstyle, then don't use the playstyle that turns everyone else off

[hallow spire]

lol

[crystal wharf]

if you want to play stego like a tenonto that can only bite and tail slam
you're more than welcome to
just dont try and balance the game around flawed playstyles

[harsh lark]

If whether I get hunted or not is in my control, it's not being hunted, its just going around looking for a fight. Not sure why you guys are so content with stego as a walking simulator until a mixpack comes to kill you.

[harsh lark]

I don't think wanting to be hunted by carnivores as a herbivore is a flawed playstyle, it's kind of what the game advertises.

[crystal wharf]

where

show me

[wild cove]

Not sure why you're complaining about something that's easily within your control either.
If you want to get into fights, then go get into fights

[crystal wharf]

or competent utahs
but i suppose those are few and far between

[harsh lark]

Nothing competent utahs can do if you stick your butt in a tree, thought we already established this

[wild cove]

Then don't stick your butt in a tree if you want a fight

[harsh lark]

I would play as an aggressive carnivore if i wanted to get in fights. When I play stego I'm playing a defensive herbivore thats gonna stand its ground against anything that comes for it. Or not anymore since nothing will come for you now.

[wild cove]

But supposedly they won't come for you because of trees. So just don't stand in trees and you can have your defensive fight.

[harsh lark]

Why should I have to gimp myself to have an actual fight? That's just not good design for a video game.

[wild cove]

Then that's your choice and you're complaining just to complain, not because you have a solution. You can't control what other stegos do. You can control what you do. If you choose to play in a way that deters the defensive fights you claim to want, that's your own damn fault. Play differently or don't be surprised that the result you get is exactly what you're complaining about making your gameplay less enjoyable.

Trees are optional.

[harsh lark]

It's not my fault if I wanna play with everything at my disposal, that's what people naturally do when they play competitive games. You're doing a whole lot of mental gymnastics to justify the obvious issue of stego being a herbivore that doesn't have to worry about being hunted because it's too good at what it does.

[wild cove]

Not as many gymnastics as it takes to complain about an easily remedied problem lol

[harsh lark]

But it is a problem when something is so powerful you need to purposely bring yourself down a level to give others a chance?

[wild cove]

Yeah it is because they also have the chance to run away and go find something else to kill if they want to. Pick your battles, find someone who's not playing smart of playing something else easier to kill.

Stego isn't the only dino that can use trees to get a utah off

You're acting like its unique to just Stego

In either case, a Stego should be difficult to take down

Its the 2nd biggest dino on the Isle rn

It takes 5x as long to grow

At least

[harsh lark]

"Picking your battles" doesn't solve my issue as a stego, if an entire utah pack can look at me and collectively go "Yeah not even bothering." Thats just not fun for me as a stego player.

[wild cove]

Yet you refuse to change playstyle to what might actually encourage them to try

[harsh lark]

Stego was already a risky, difficult hunt before this patch. It was the second tankiest dino and has the most impact dmg to boot. Now it's just passed that point of difficult to "not worth bothering with"

[wild cove]

Refusal is a choice, not a game mechanic

[harsh lark]

I'm a herbivore. A gazelle isn't gonna be nice to a lion and let it get close for a fair chase. If there's absolutely nothing that can hunt me when I'm playing at my peak there's a problem.

[wild cove]

A gazelle is also smaller than a lion lmfao

[tacit oriole]

Maybe ptera shouldn't be able to fly with a utah clinging on?

[wild cove]

Literally comparing a 50lbs prey animal to a 500 lbs predator

Its not even a close comparison

[turbid hazel]

i mean, it is kinda your choice to go all in to the whole acting as a herbi would thing. i play stego and i just go find a deino to harass and that's fine for me.

i've had utahs, a pack of like 6-8 attack me before, sadly they were horrible and all of them forgot to dismount their pounces and all but one died in the span of a few seconds.

[harsh lark]

Try thinking of things in general concepts instead of exact metaphors. Gazelle are prey animals, Stego is a prey animal. Fair comparison to me.

[turbid hazel]

i don't even see what you suggest, bring utah back with 1k hp and being able to abuse the hell out of any stego that isn't competent

plus, stego doesn't really seem like the prey of choice for a utah

i see it going after gallis, tenos or smaller stuff

[wild cove]

Except you're comparing the exact opposite of what we're talking about.
A 500lbs pack predator hunting a 50lbs animal that's built to run away.
To a 450kg pack hunter taking on a 6000 kg slow, defensive prey animal with giant fuck off spikes on its tail

Its not even the same universe

[turbid hazel]

and a carno isn't build for fighting a stego either

it's to do with the roster, not the dino

[wild cove]

It'd be more accurate to compare a pack of lions trying to hunt down an elephant

it doesn't end well for most lions

[harsh lark]

That's dandy and all but the game doesn't have an actual ecosystem. Every playable needs a degree of versatility to deal with the fact that there isn't always gonna be somebody playing the dino you're "Meant" to interact with.

[turbid hazel]

the only thing that can prey on stego and seems like an animal that could is deino.

[wild cove]

No, skilled Utahs should (and from what I've seen from some people, skilled Utahs CAN) hunt Stego

[turbid hazel]

they can yeah

[wild cove]

But you have to play the way Utah is supposed to be played

With actual skill and group coordination

[harsh lark]

You're thinking about it too much. A gazelle as a prey animal uses every strategy at it's disposal to ward off predators. No prey animal purposely puts itself in a position that makes it easier to kill. That's the point about stego I'm making.

[wild cove]

A bunch of idiots running in at the same time spamming Pounce and hoping to get lucky isn't skill

Any more than pre-patch Utah spam biting everything as its main attack were skilled

[turbid hazel]

pre-patch utah was way too strong

[wild cove]

I'm not thinking about it too much. You're trying to compare apples and coconuts

[harsh lark]

Pre-patch utah got folded by carno megapacks.

[wild cove]

Carnos weren't supposed to megapack

[turbid hazel]

and pretty easily kill a stego, even easier a teno

[wild cove]

People playing outside the intended design isn't bad balance, its people playing outside bounds

[turbid hazel]

if you think that utah having 1k hp when it's not even that heavy is balanced there's a problem

[harsh lark]

My bad, megapacks would be the wrong thing to say. More like 5 carnos, which is the intended pack limit right now. Although I would say even that is more than enough.

[turbid hazel]

carnos are meant to be utah destroyers though...???

[wild cove]

Honestly Carnos shouldn't have a pack limit of 5, but reducing it wouldn't change anything anyway

[harsh lark]

Why do you think HP and weight have to exactly mirror eachother when they're different stats.

[turbid hazel]

i don't

[wild cove]

Carnos will still megapack together regardless, as pre-patch showed

[turbid hazel]

i didn't say i did. don't assume that

do you think, logically, an animal that isn't even a ton should have 1k hp

[wild cove]

Honestly the Weight = HP system is a little bit funky. But a utah shouldn't be tanking things much bigger than it either

[harsh lark]

Unironically yeah, when 1k HP wasn't even enough to save Utah from being oneshot by lunge, charge, tail slam, and stego impale.

You're the one making a direct correlation between weight and HP

[turbid hazel]

you think a utah would survive a stego impale???

[harsh lark]

Never said that? 1k explicitly wasn't enough to survive a stego bodyshot

[turbid hazel]

it's still too much hp for an animal that didn't weigh that much

body mass would logically correlate with hp.

i see nothing wrong in doing so.

[wild cove]

But you're using Stego as the main reference for what stats Utah needs, when Stego isn't the only dino on the Isle

And its the tankiest

Next to adult Deino

The problem is if you're adjusting Utah stats only with Stego in mind because apparently hunting a Stego shouldn't be a big risk (it should be), you throw off the balance for everything else as well and have to adjust. And then you end up with the balance problem we had BEFORE patch where everything was getting overtuned to be able to compete, because of 1-2 dinos specifically being broken

[harsh lark]

But what reason is there to have an issue with something that caused no abnormalities in the gameplay? It's not like utahs were surviving stego impales, eating tail slams or shrugging off carno bites before this patch. 1k hp worked pretty well for utahs interactions with other dinos.

[harsh lark]

The problem you just described is something I would say happened in this patch. Utah got brought down to 450 hp specifically so that a 500 deino bite could oneshot it and that had a huge dominoes effect on all its matchups.

[turbid hazel]

do you think a utah could survive being bitten by a deino. realistically. since afaik, the isle is aiming far more to realism.

[wild cove]

Utah was already dying to adult Deino most of the time

[turbid hazel]

the sheer force would crush the damn thing in an instant

[wild cove]

Also all dinos had most of their attacks nerfed across the board

[turbid hazel]

this explains hp decreases to a degree

[harsh lark]

Realistically no, but it's not like surviving a bite was doing utah any favors in that matchup. Deino already had a pretty laughably easy time against utah before this patch.

[turbid hazel]

as it should. since a utah shouldn't go anywhere near a deino, and if it did, it died.

[wild cove]

I think a lot of people just straight up forget this is a Survival Game first, with elements of PvP

Its not a brawler game

You shouldn't be hunting everything you see or beating everything you try to fight all the time

[harsh lark]

ah yes, because a deino should be allowed to run 20 meters inland to fight a utah pack for reasons.

[wild cove]

More often than not there are plenty of dead bodies of other players to scavenge off of. People just choose not to because they'd rather surplus kill "for fun"

[turbid hazel]

yeah then that deino is out of stam and can't even alt bite and gets harassed.

and the utah just

move away???

it's not hard

[harsh lark]

Well thats true, and brings me back to my earlier point about stego losing enjoyability because of the ease of surviving. It's not much of a survival game if you don't need to worry about dying.

[turbid hazel]

plus the roster isn't finished

[wild cove]

Maybe there are people who actually enjoy that aspect? If you want to be worried about being eaten, play a Hypsi or something lmao

Also yeah, that Yinoxa

[harsh lark]

Please don't start talking about dinos that aren't even on the roadmap yet.

[turbid hazel]

things will be able to hunt stego somewhat reliably in the future just not now

i'm not?

[harsh lark]

What will hunt stego that's on the current roadmap?

[turbid hazel]

cerato could try if it's packed. more mobile than a carno is so can dodge easier. probably stronger bite too

[wild cove]

I know a lot of people don't want to hear this but some people actually enjoy playing a dino that's relatively safe from predation once fully grown which takes a significant commitment, since it takes 5+ IRL hours to hit full grown Stego. Not everyone wants to play a brawler game.

[turbid hazel]

neither utah nor carno are made to fight stego

that's the problem

[wild cove]

I wouldn't say that's entirely correct. Skilled Utah that actually knows how to use its toolkit and manage its resources is designed to hunt Stego. But its a very specific toolkit and play style.

Which is good I think because otherwise why play one dino over another if they're basically the same

[turbid hazel]

that's true

[wild cove]

If you want to just run in and bite shit, go play a carno

[harsh lark]

Cerato would be slower and have less HP if we go by the trend of HP = weight. And considering carno currently takes 15 headshots to kill stego, I don't think you'd be able to gear Cerato for a stego hunt without some pretty absurd stat bloating.

[wild cove]

If you want a slow-burn hunt that takes time and strategy and care, play utah

[turbid hazel]

i said it could try. doesn't mean it's aimed for it

[wild cove]

If you want a mostly safe herbivore that can relax and enjoy the scenery, play stego

etc

[turbid hazel]

does it look like anything would have an easy time with stego

it has a literal death weapon on it's tail

[wild cove]

Can't wait for the complaints about Kentro if it ever makes it in

lol

[turbid hazel]

i just hope they don't make apexes exclusive to certain 'gamemodes'

nobody asked for that

[wild cove]

Yeah dividing up the roster like that seems like a really bad direction imo

[turbid hazel]

just have survival and deathmatch/sandbox

[harsh lark]

I acknowledge there's people who might enjoy that playstyle, but Stego shouldn't be the one who caters to that. That's more the territory of absurdly large sauropods like Brachio. Stego is an weaponized dino with a clear weakness and strength. When I play stego I want to play around those strengths and weaknesses. Not grow 5 hours in a bush as my instant win condition for any future encounter.

[wild cove]

Far as I know, Brachio isn't in nor is it going to be. So its a moot point.

[turbid hazel]

yeah

[harsh lark]

Probably because the concept of a herbivore that removes itself from the natural ecosystem just by reaching adult is a flawed concept.

[turbid hazel]

but the ecosystem isn't done

[wild cove]

Doesn't matter why. Its not in the game so saying "Well if people wanted to play that way they should play a dino that's never going to exist in the game" is flawed logic

If you want to play an herbi with more risk, play an herbi with more risk

You have 3 other options

Soon to be 4

[turbid hazel]

stego should've been released somewhat later tbh

[wild cove]

It probably should've, but it wasn't, so also a moot point unless they just straight up remove it. Which I doubt they will. No point to remove an option some people like on an already limited roster

[harsh lark]

Excusing yourself from the "Survival" portion of this game shouldn't be as trivial as growing for 5 hours

[wild cove]

You say that like 5 hours each time you want to grow, remembering server wipes and other circumstances are a thing, is an insignificant amount of time for someone to waste in a video game just to enjoy their time in it

If you don't enjoy playing something the way it was designed to be played, then play something else?

[harsh lark]

So that's suddenly the intended design for stego? Not having to worry about being hunted? Could of sworn stego was supposed to do something with its tail to protect some sort of weakness in its front.

[wild cove]

I mean if a stego just stands in one place getting spam pounced and bitten I'm pretty sure it dies like anything else

Again, you're making arguments that don't even apply

Actually you're making arguments that directly contradict yourself

[harsh lark]

We already established that stego is pretty much untouchable as long as you use bare minimum strategies with it like good positioning. I don't see where I contradict myself when I point out how the recent patch has made these strengths overblown to the point where stego doesn't even get to have defensive fights anymore.

[wild cove]

Again, "doesn't get to" is a playstyle choice. Trees are an option. You don't have to use them.

A smart stego that takes 5+ hours to grow shouldn't have to be that afraid of a swarm of mediocre-at-best gnats that take 45 minutes to reach full adult mindlessly throwing themselves at it knowing full well that the environment is to their disadvantage

Natural selection at that point

[harsh lark]

Well we're gonna go into a loop here, but to reiterate my earlier point, I shouldn't have to gimp my own gameplay just to get predators to even consider hunting me.

Stego is 5 hour and utah is an hour and 10 minutes.

[wild cove]

Then don't, just don't be surprised if smart players don't throw themselves at you to die lol

Plenty enough dumb ones who'll do it anyway

Risk assessment should in fact be part of a survival game

[harsh lark]

Sure, but there's also a point where certain strategies need to be nerfed because they take out the "survival" in survival game.

[wild cove]

Not really. You still have to grow those 5 hours without getting caught and killed and diets are coming soon which is going to force players to actually migrate for food and not just sit in a bush

5+ hours of growth should in fact be rewarded more than 45 minutes

[true ginkgo]

A lot later. At the very earliest alongside allo. If not, alongside acro.

[harsh lark]

Diets only reinforces my point. Imagine having current adult stego in 3 hours. Either way stego was already pretty solid as a 5 hour investment before. You shouldn't be able to outgrow the player ecosystem, otherwise it ruins the whole point of it

[wild cove]

Except you'll be forced to cross paths with things that want to kill you, whereas nothing was forcing that before lol

You could just afk for 5 hours and be fine

The risk goes up

And if diets are going to focus certain food to certain biomes, predators will learn where to stake out claims to kill stegos, tenos, and whatever else

[true ginkgo]

The issue with stego now, is either you have gimped stats which felt like it was doing an apex sized animal a disservice, and was a complete was of 5 hours when 3 utahs could kill it in under a minute. But it fit the roster of smalls more.

Or it got proper and more realistic stats for an animal of that size, and it makes it clear that it's far too large for the current ecosystem.

[harsh lark]

Still doesn't justify ridiculous strength as an adult when people will inevitably still speed through diets growth by being helped by adult stegos or play during inactive server hours where less predators are on to stop stegos from growing to unhuntable sizes.

[true ginkgo]

The problems were made even more clear before where stegos (and deinos) of matching sizes to other animals were a faction of their power. A 120kg dryo had more health than a 500kg stego. A 3000kg ton stego lost in a tankfight to a 1600kg tenoto.

[wild cove]

The main problem isn't really Stego though. Its that Utah suffers from a lot of bad or punishing mechanics that makes it unable to defend itself or run away very well from its main predator right now, which is Carno, and it also gets animation-stunlock punished for missing its special attack, which right now is unique to Utah

Give it a better turn and better ability to flee, and don't punish it so hard for a missed pounce, and it'll be in a much better spot

[harsh lark]

You can't really deny that stego isn't part of the problem when it and deino got mostly buffs in the patch that stamped every smaller dino down even further below them.

But yeah, utahs pounce does need better fixes like not being instantly deactivated by minor collision or shallow water

[true ginkgo]

I mean that's a completely different issue. Smalls got this huge agility nerf, and suddenly their sprinting turn circle is the size of Texas. They can no longer change direction quickly to avoid attacks. It's effected utah the most as it has to hunt, but even hispy turns like a truck now.

Alongside carnos alt bite being too powerful, it's making it so utahs can't dodge attacks to make up for being fragile.

[harsh lark]

Also this, the global speed nerfs were pretty much indirect buffs to deino and stego who never really needed speed but benefit enormously from having an easier time landing their punishing attacks.

[wild cove]

For some reason it just seems like the devs apply certain things universally to all species with no or little nuance. Deino splash detection was the same way. A hypsi or baby deino gave the same splash detection distance as a fully grown Deino or Stego. Utah and Hypsi definitely both need much more forgiving turn inertia appropriate to their size and play style.

[true ginkgo]

I like the speed nerfs. They were needed. Dinosaurs running at highway speeds looked awful, and the animations were having to be stretched to their limit to work. It's the agilty nerfs which are the problem. Can't change direction, accelerate, or dodge very easily as a small.

[true ginkgo]

Yeah varied sonar pings is something I've suggested before. No reason that a wading brachi should show up at the same range and intensity as a swimming compy.

An adult deino should ping up on the sonar long before a fresh spawn.

[wild cove]

Yeah the speed nerfs were mostly fine. I think Hypsi is the only "fast" dino that didn't get a speed nerf, but it already couldn't and still can't outrun Utah or Carno anyway in a straight line chase

Which is fine

But it should be able to juke and change direction, as should Utah

[true ginkgo]

Except duking and changing direction seems to be really poor right now :/ Really crippling utahs ability to dodge and bait attacks.

[wild cove]

Yeah. Both should have good juking and directional change imo. Hypsi should be superior in agility but Utah should be close enough to reasonably be able to catch Hypsi if its persistent and skilled enough to cut off its escape or working with a pack, and for bigger game like Stego it should be more a slow-burn war of attrition

[runic cliff]

I tried Dryo yesterday, growing up really feels good, it almost feels a bit like our own legacy Dryo...untill you meet a predator like a raptor. You can no longer get away from them. Tried to circle around, then run into the forest, but Utah seems to be turning faster and catches up insta. Not sure what to think of it. You have to be sneaking all the time now and lets face it, this playstyle makes Dryo sooo useless to grow. I LOVED the new Dryo because of its agillity, sad the devs took it away. You didnt see them very often anyway..

[carmine charm]

@past gulch and you are not talking the fact that "SAFE LANDING" does not exist against a good stego ... they just hit you in air and you are dead ....

[true ginkgo]

@wild cove Yeah the amount of food you get from bodies seems way too low atm. The carnis arnt even able to fill up from their own kills. Let alone leave any for scavengers like pteras and juvie utahs. Seems you need to eat your entire body weight to fill up which is silly.

[primal token]

Wow the devs decided to make Utahraptor a new Dryo species with the only purpose of running away from everything…

Stego growth 3 hours, but with a stat nerf!

Stego shouldn't be 5 hours anyways

[winged sierra]

what

[safe anchor]

?

[cedar shore]

@primal token Nerfing stegos growth timer fixes absolutely nothing

[primal token]

Kinda does but okay

[cedar shore]

every dinosaur should be equally viable, how powerful it is should be determined by its growth time

[primal token]

Sure thing

[cedar shore]

If stego isnt viable how does nerfing its growth timer fix anything?

[safe anchor]

nerfing the grow time just makes it easier to grow and is pointless

steggo is perfectly fine where it is at 5 hours

[primal token]

Then people woulden’t be spending 5 hours in a bush to die in 10 min

[cedar shore]

So?

its power is equal to 5 hrs of growth

[primal token]

It wasn’t 5 hours in legacy

[cedar shore]

LEgeacy stego was kinda ass though

[safe anchor]

if you are currently dying in 10 minutes as a steggo you have your own problems

[primal token]

Yeah but with a damage nerf like I Said

[cedar shore]

No stego should stay as an apex

[safe anchor]

ignore legacy it has nothing to do with evrima

[primal token]

Thats why utah Got nerfed lol thats what people are complaining about

F

I never wanted utah to get nerfed

Its unfair, just because players didn’t play stego right man…

[safe anchor]

so now instead of buffing utah a little bit,you want to change steggos grow time? what is your logic behind that?

[primal token]

The Hole point in that is getting the utah buffed😂

[true ginkgo]

People wanting stego to be a mid tier lol.

[primal token]

4 utahs should imo be able to take down a stego

[safe anchor]

by making steggo grow faster? you have no clue

[primal token]

Yes

How would you fix the balance Then?

[true ginkgo]

3 hours should be things like allo. Not stego.

[primal token]

How Much for Trike Then?

[true ginkgo]

Personally, remove stego from the game until the ecosystem can handle it.

[true ginkgo]

6 for trike, 7 for rex.

[safe anchor]

there are lots of ways to fix it but changing steggos growth fixes nothing if you are making it shorter anyways

[primal token]

Fair enough, but that would only make the game more boring

[true ginkgo]

Unless the new giant trike is picked. Then 7 too.

[primal token]

6-7😅

Im not playing that

[true ginkgo]

Growth shouldn't be boring. Juvies and subs should be fun and viable too.

Dinos shouldn't need to just afk grow.

[safe anchor]

no one said you had to play it

[primal token]

No one has 7 hours to throw at 1 game like that

[primal token]

I want to make this a good game all dino loves Can play m8

[safe anchor]

people have been doing it in legacy for years......

[primal token]

Hell nah wdym

5 hours was the limit

At tbh that was alot

[true ginkgo]

Ajuvie rex should be sprinting round hunting dryos, and then dueling utahs once it gets bigger. It should be agile and feel like playing a small. Then when it gets to sub it's trying to brawl with the mid tiers and adopt a more balanced play style. Chasing tenotos over long distances in endurance fights.

The entire thing should be fun.

[primal token]

Love your Way of thinking

[safe anchor]

yep 5 hours 1 or 2 more hours people will still play it and you dont need to do this all in one play session its why it saves your progress when you safe log

[true ginkgo]

5 hour rex means you basically have a subrex in a similar time it takes to grow a carno.

You have an allo level animal in carno time.

[primal token]

And Thats what makes it fair

But utahs has always Been dependent of skill

[primal token]

How Can you balance that?

[true ginkgo]

How does that make it fair? That makes it very unfair.

You've got an animal more powerful than other things of its growth time if you make rex 5 hours.

[primal token]

I mean it aint more powerful

You Can be skilled with everything

Utah Can be a Quick Way to join the fun😁 the downside it that you cant Keep growing…

[hollow canyon]

The logic behind that is to make Stego fodder but to make it easier to grow so it feels less bad when people lose it - sounds like a good way to balance the game :sarcasm:

[primal dove]

ok guys my mindset about the utahs current state kinda changed. I´ve fought a carno 30 mins ago and i nearly got to kill it if i had more stamina. I got 2 pounces in, jumped off before it bucked my whole stam away and when it went wallowing i also got some bites in, if it tried to attack me i just ran in a zick zack and it couldnt hit or catch up to me. So my conclusion is buff the global bleed loss and give the utah way more stam since it has to be able to track its prey item after a pounce or just overall

[hollow canyon]

Was that a 1v1?

[primal dove]

yea

[slim dragon]

Then Utah doesn't need a buff ?

[hollow canyon]

I mean... Utah isn't supposed to 1v1 a Carno.

[primal dove]

well i had a juvi utah with me who tracked the carno down when i had to rest

[slim dragon]

I mean the fact you almost soloed a carno shows that Utah is good enough

[primal dove]

ok wait i forgot to add that the carno got hit by deinos before

[hollow canyon]

If you were in a pack then that Carno would've going to die there.

[primal dove]

so it was already hurt and had some bleed on it

im just saying some small buffs can bring utah on a good way

[hollow canyon]

It's mainly a matter of bleed against the Utahs

[primal dove]

yea i mean the carno was also kinda bad facetanked 2 deinos lol

i also had a juvi utah who tracked down the carno

[hollow canyon]

Utah's bleed really, really doesn't need a buff, it's really powerful already if you can keep on your target after applying it

[primal token]

That carno was bad lol

[primal dove]

but it definitely needs some changes

[primal token]

And even Got hit by a deino

[primal dove]

exactly

[hollow canyon]

The key thing is applying the bleed and then having other Utahs follow it

[primal dove]

it wallowed 3 times and everytime i could get 2 bites in

[primal token]

Give utah more stam

[primal dove]

way more

[primal token]

Ye

[safe anchor]

yeah playing like a wolf pack works well

[primal dove]

it´s too slow to keep up but it should have more stam then

[primal token]

And a sligt buff in bf

Then im happy

[primal dove]

exhaust ur prey and then track it down uhh wait that makes no sense

[oak wind]

Utah is an endurance predator of large hadros or such animals slower than itself. It's job is to keep them in place with their pounce, not by biting.

[primal dove]

exhaust ur prey and then kill it lol

[safe anchor]

it made no sense before when a single utah could take on a steggo

[primal token]

Normally you cant Regen stam in a 1v1 if the carno is good…

Which equals in only 1 pounce

[primal dove]

that carno went to wallow 3 times and i could get every single time 2 alt bites in

and remember the deinos attacked it before

[oak wind]

Then, it is an ambush of small animals if alone because of its rather low stamina.

But Carno isn't a food item to Utah packs.

Slightly larger animals are really bad match-ups for Utahraptor.

[primal dove]

if it plays that dumb tho...

just imagine that he ran away from an utah and a baby

[wild cove]

Kinda what I was saying before... lots of people are willing to play dumb in the Isle. So yeah, you SHOULD be using other people being bad at the game to your advantage, like taking down a Carno that's dumb enough to facetank 2 Deinos. Natural selection lol

[primal dove]

bc he first he facetanked 2 DEINOS let me get 2 pounces in and if he went to wallow i just bit him

im still laughing my ass off, after i sat down to rest it crossed the river and nearly got killed by the deinos xD

the way it 4 called afterwards lol

[wild cove]

lol

Also nerfing Stego grow time to 3 hours is an awful idea

Absolutely not

[primal dove]

3 hours is absolutely nuts for such a big herbivore

that´s like saying carno should grow as fast as a dryo

[wild cove]

Stego is hard to kill if you don't have the patience and skill to fight it the right way, and it SHOULD be with the amount of time it takes to grow

That tankiness is earned

[oak wind]

Utah mains

[wild cove]

Especially once diets are out

[safe anchor]

yeah stego grow time wont change

[true ginkgo]

If you're bringing its stats and grow time down like that, it's better to just cap its growth to 75% instead.

And just uncap it when allos arrive.

[wild cove]

If you can manage to make it to full adult Stego when diets are implemented, I'd say you definitely earned it

[primal dove]

absolutely

found the carno again, i could bait 6 alt bites from it by just tapping sprint lmao

jsut give utah more stam problem solved

wait wtf

I KILLED IT! It bled out xD

jeez that hunt

deino stole my kill :<

im so fucking proud of myself now

[sonic needle]

yeah he knew that a Utah couldnt do anything to him so he just took it 😄

[primal dove]

can´t hunt for himself lmao

[sonic needle]

Deinos dont realy Hunt 😄 they steal bodies like yours near the water or the just wait somewhere under water for something to come drink. There isnt much hunting

[true ginkgo]

Best tactic as a deino is find a fish, and put it next to the riverbank. Then ambush whatever comes to eat it.

[fading zodiac]

imagine not spawning fish

[foggy arrow]

is possible to intrise the heath of the utah? they die why to ease one tail from the stego or one or two hits from evrithing else.

[true ginkgo]

@tulip star The issue with that is arbitrary healths break down at other growth stages. Having weight linked to health keeps it consistent with animals of the same size.

Last patch a 500kg stego had less health than a 120kg dryo. And a 500kg utah had 3x as much health as a stego of the same weight.

Meanwhile a 1600kg tenoto outtanked a 3 ton stego in a tailfight.

Deino had similar issues, where it didn't have remotely enough health for its size when compared to creatures of an identical size.

A 500kg animal should be roughly as tanky as another 500kg animal.

[primal dove]

but a 500kg full adult utah should be a litlle tankier than a 10% baby deino

(u can put any dinos into that example)

[true ginkgo]

Yeah it should, and it is in the current patch. A 10% deino is less than 200kg in the current update.

[tulip star]

He’s using it as an example

Not literal

But the point is you can do that with health scaling

[primal dove]

yea otherwise we might get stuff like juvi cera assriding a rex to death (I know the rex has more health im just using overall stats as an example now)

[true ginkgo]

A utah should have similar health to a roughly 30% deino (not sure of the exact values).

[harsh lark]

only reason immature life stages had wonky hp stats was because the growing formula is logarithmic when it should be exponential.

[true ginkgo]

A juvie cera can assride a rex to death even easier with old stats. As big animals were punished way more healthwise than small ones.

[harsh lark]

When you're half grown in this game you don't actually have half your stats

[tulip star]

I’m pretty sure in legacy weight equals hp

And you see how that went

[true ginkgo]

Stego had 2-3 health/weight. Utah had 2-1 health/weight in the old update.

Now it's 1-1 for both.

[golden coral]

First of all, it doesn't always, and second, that's not an issue in legacy.

[tulip star]

But what’s the point, now you have these big creatures always just getting these massive health boosts simply because they weigh more

[alpine plover]

it took rex like 9 bites to kill a spino I believe, rex did 1,200 damage, spino was 9 tons, so 9k hp

[true ginkgo]

A: In legacy it was often weight=HP, but for many creatures it wasn't.

B: Legacy had a formula which literally prevented small things from doing damage to large things. A utah would do standard damage to another utah, but basically no damage to a rex.

This update isn't like legacy at all. A utah does the same damage to another utah as it does to a deino.

[alpine plover]

Legacy was confusing anyways

[golden coral]

Well, they should have the health buff anyway, but I guess you could have done that without the new health formula

[tulip star]

There is no new health formula

There is zero formula involved

[golden coral]

Health = weight, as you mentioned

Is what I meant

[true ginkgo]

Yes. Big animals which have huge grow times should have more health.

Small tiers should not be hunting apex level animals.

[golden coral]

You could of course have given stego 6K health while keeping utah 1K health

[tulip star]

Which would have been fine

[true ginkgo]

That would still leave the issue of a 500kg stego having 50% of the health of a 500kg utah.

[golden coral]

So granted, it didn't have to match health/weight, but then we still have the .. oddity that things won't always match up and make sense

[tulip star]

I don’t think a 500kg stego should have the same health as a 500kg Utah as they completely built different

And play different

Stego should be tankier

[true ginkgo]

The issue isn't with stego/deino having large amounts of health.

The issue is those two animals being thrown into a small tier ecosystem without any suitable animals to act as competition or predators.

Should have been like kentro and austro.

[harsh lark]

you fix that by making stats properly scale with growth instead of ridiculous buffs to adult stages that weren't even a part of the problem

[golden coral]

Maybe you could somehow make it so that stego also had 1K health then, if we kept old utah health

[tulip star]

You can have a 500kg stego have like 500 more hp then a Utah it’s not hard

While also not fucking up the balance of the game

I also do think growth should be exponential as well

[true ginkgo]

I'd honestly rather just not have stego in the game than have it with artificially gimped stats to make utah mains happy they can kill apexes in 30 seconds flat like in the prior update.

Less than 500kg small tiers should not be hunting apexes.

[golden coral]

Problem is more so that there's nothing then for players to really go by. Sure you could say that x weight for two critters means more or less similar hp given similar build. But then you still have the idea of why some critters would have the utah "scale" of health, and others would not at all have it. So I can still see some issues there in understanding how the game works and making sense of it all.

Utah had double health to weight, all good, but when stego then had not even it's weight in health, it's odd. Because you get no coherent way to measure things.

If you get what I'm trying to say here?

I look at former utah and go "Okay, playable have this much health for size/weight", noted." Then I look at stego and try to figure out, and it goes "no, it doesn't work like that at all, it has way too little health for the given weight/size" for some reason.

[tulip star]

Well guess what we have stego and we have deino there’s no point to try and say they shouldn’t have been added. We know this, yknow what we can do to balance them though? Balance them to the current playables and maybe down the road buff them to be an actual apex creature like they are when bigger and badder animals are added to threaten them. There’s no point to say a stego shouldn’t fear Utah and carno when Utah and carno are literally the only thing that can hunt it as of currently. They have to give it gimped stats in order to make it playable and actually participate in the game.

[tulip star]

Right but now with the Heath equals weight issue it’s either the fights are dragged on for 7 years and it becomes a face tank battle or the battle ends within 3 seconds

I want there to be a middle ground, whereas weight doesn’t really play a role in anything besides abilities used

Which is how update 3 had it

[golden coral]

You could have just upped the health anyway, so it could have worked. I'll grant you that. I argued mostly that stego was too fragile for what it was, not so much that utah needed less health (though possibly less damage cause someone decided stego head is weaker than a dryos for some reason), and biting a stego to death should just not be viable as anything smaller than maybe a large allo or up.

Though I'm not sure the hunts last that long xD

[true ginkgo]

I'd rather they capped the growth of stego to 75% and kept the health-weight formula. Basically making the stego into something like the 'sophie' stego. Growth could be uncapped when allo turns up.

Which would make the growth time 225 mins, and the 75% weight is 2700kg.

[golden coral]

Still too high growthtime for that I'd say

[tulip star]

That’s too much and you could achieve the same thing with just nerfing

[golden coral]

Maybe 3 hours at most then, if we're going with roster-balanced stego

[tulip star]

And rebuffing when newer badder creatures get added

[tulip star]

I honestly think growth time plays a role as well

I don’t think they should be a 5 hour creature when everything else in the game is 2 hours or just a bit higher

[harsh lark]

Just downsize it? Carno and teno both got downsized in update 3, and downsizing makes more sense than making people think their game is bugged because they're stuck as a subadult stego

[golden coral]

It does? I'm mostly saying that if stego should be balanced for the current roster, which is one way to do it, then growth time should make it worth it. If I am to die to 3-6 utahs more often than not if they know what they're doing, then 3-3.5 hours is more reasonable, since at least in my experience that amount of utahs is very common. (barring the carno megapacks being in the way, but that's a carno issue/food issue).

[tulip star]

So with that you agree weight and health should be the same, you could have just buffed stegos health and achieved the same effect without touching the fragile balance of every single other creature

[golden coral]

It could, but I think it's more complicated than it sounds. And the biggest reason for that downsize was to avoid size inflation when we do get other big stuff.

And apparently that took some convincing and doing to get it

[tulip star]

Oh no I completely agree, with what creatures are in right now they should def be nerfed and reduced the growth time to make it fair

[true ginkgo]

The downsizing of carno and tenoto was to make them their real size.

Downsizing stego so it's no longer its real size undoes any of that.

[harsh lark]

How exactly would you have size inflation? Teno or carno being slightly bigger than normal doesnt mean you gotta make rex 20 meters long

[golden coral]

Yes. I don't think I ever argued for the formula, or that it has to be that way. I do think it's good if there is some sort of coherency so you can look at playables and figure things out and make sense of them. If you get what I mean there. But obviously it wasn't needed to just change stats around.

[golden coral]

To keep the size differences between them all. Allo gets bigger to match over carno, rex in turn gets even bigger. No it wouldn't lead to a kaiju probably, but you do see the point here right?

[true ginkgo]

I like the formula as it actually adds some consistency. No reason for big animals to be squishy for their size while small animals are walking tanks for their size.

My issue is with the roster.

[tulip star]

You could just downsize it until the bigger things get added, so the creatures that are in right now could have a chance

[harsh lark]

Only people who care about accurate sizes are paleo nerds that are liable to have a heart attack from seeing a dino a few meters above its usual estimates. As far as im concerned any size is good as long as you're not doing something ridiculous like making a raptor the size of a rex.

[golden coral]

No need to be rude. And they did say they wanted accurate sizes, so there is that.

[harsh lark]

Allo isnt actually that much longer than carno, just heavier, and a rex would still tower over old teno/carno or even current stego

[golden coral]

Anyway, there was a reason for that, if you don't think it was needed, that's fine. I'm not sure I would be as fine with an oversized critter, even if it's not stupidly exaggerated. If that means I'm a paleo nerd then I guess I am ^^

[tulip star]

I don’t care if the creature is a bit bigger then what it was realistically as I don’t care enough about dinosaurs to actually be so strict to the point of this creature has to be x and y

I just care about gameplay and how it plays more so

[true ginkgo]

I mean some of us actually arrived when the game looked a lot more realistic than it does now, and most animals looked convincing apart from maybe integement. The 'realism' was what made it more attractive than things like ark.

That all being thrown in the bin puts us off the game.

[tulip star]

I’ve been here since the very beginning and I don’t really remember the game looking any more realistic then evirma like at all

[golden coral]

I'd probably be fine with a little difference, but I think there were a risk of it actually being a too noticable one as the carno and teno was sized.

[true ginkgo]

Evrima's graphics are better. But the new concepts are a lot more fantasy and ark like than anything which used to be there.

Look at allo or carno next to things like new acro, alberto, or anky.

[tulip star]

Well isle has always had a stylized way of portraying their dinosaurs

[true ginkgo]

Carno is basically perfectly paleo accurate.

[golden coral]

Honestly, it's varied. But I find it hilarious the original stego model was accurate in all of its boxy-ness xD

[winged sierra]

claiming legacy designs are stylised to the same level as evrima's A-team is just a blatant lie

[tulip star]

But that brings up another point, why buy the isle for realism at all?

[golden coral]

Yeah.. new austro is.. fancy :p

[true ginkgo]

"A-Team"

I'll be stealing that

[golden coral]

You know that term has been around a lot right, Jen? ^^

[winged sierra]

i stole it from someone else

[golden coral]

At least if Kato is using it the way I know it's been used

[true ginkgo]

I've heard "The four A's" used mainly.

[winged sierra]

yeah i took it from someone else (i think?), forgot who it was though

[golden coral]

Because it aims for it, more so than BoB at least

[true ginkgo]

Look at old austro next to new austro.

Accuracy went from like 75% to 10%.

[tulip star]

But you have these giant strains and these horrifying fantasy creatures like cannibals and shit running around

[true ginkgo]

And those were seperate. There was an intentional contrast. The normal dinosaurs and the fantasy monsters.

Now it's the fantasy monsters and the other bigger fantasy monsters.

[tulip star]

I feel like isle strives for some realism, but not the main point of the game is to be realistic

[winged sierra]

the isle, even if it doesn't aim to be so, has been semi-accurate and realistic up until recently. The A-team are a complete U turn because of how hybridised and inaccurate some of the new concepts of regular animals are. The strains have always been monstrous, that's indisuputable, but the regular roster was never stylised to this degree

[true ginkgo]

If you're shrinking stego to midget size. Why actually pick and model a stego?

Why not pick miragaia? The perfect weight and size to go with a smaller roster.

[tulip star]

I honestly like the stylized creatures to the game it gives the game its own calling card and makes it unique

[winged sierra]

strains were treated as what they are, fictional monsters, and the rest were treated as real animals. Now we have a divide between real animals and hybrids and strains. It's a very odd art direction that not many like

[true ginkgo]

There are piles of smaller stegosaurs to use. So picking the massive one and making it small makes no sense at all.

[tulip star]

That’s an issue ur going to have to ask the devs but we have what we have now and we gotta make do

[true ginkgo]

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/8e0657fd-321b-49fe-941e-c71ef10a532b/db98fgp-353df86a-3c95-4cbf-9c7e-1dd3ad6dadba.png/v1/fill/w_1600,h_1200,q_80,strp/hesperosaurus_by_cisiopurple_db98fgp-fullview.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.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.njzRyaZFqxBxH7PcVdLLBT7cKgTPcjaYenj0EUfZYVU

[golden coral]

Yes, but they're realistically designed, more or less. And well, yes, strains are.. obviously fucking weird. :p

[tulip star]

Yes again we don’t have that

We have stego

And we have to balance it towards the roster that’s what you’re not understanding you keep asking about all these other smaller stegosaurs that could have been added but we don’t have them

[golden coral]

I don't mind some of that, there are some good concepts, and then there's some.. just outright bizarre ones. You can both keep to the animals skeletal and basic accuracy, and still make it your own with soft tissue and a bit of "fancy" stuff.

[tulip star]

We got stego

Was it a smart move to add stego? I don’t know but we have it now

[harsh lark]

Completely wasting dev resources and time to add some literal who relative for something that could just be accomplished with simple stat balancing in a fraction of time

[tulip star]

^^

That and they already had animations done for the thing

[true ginkgo]

Stat balancing which makes an apex level animal into something killed by smalls for kicks and giggles.

Which is just completely wtf.

I know uwutah mains want to just kill everything in the game, but that's not how it should work.

[tulip star]

So why not have a toned down version of stego that can fit the current roster then waste all of your time and money into a smaller stego that would have achieved the same effect as a toned down stego

[tulip star]

Here’s the thing

It’s temporary

No one said it’s going to be forever

[golden coral]

Problem with that is. It makes the playable not feel like it should.

[tulip star]

Just do it until we have bigger creatures

[golden coral]

Now it's fair, it is temporary, but it's also.. not very fun at times

But it's doable, I'll give you that

[tulip star]

I think if they nerfed the stats and buffed the growth time to be shorter

It’s do able

[golden coral]

Yeah. Honestly, if they had just put stego on 3 hours in the first place, we'd have been good

Well, except for the 4 pounces shredding it before it can even buck them off, we had at some point

[tulip star]

The roster as of right now doesn’t warrant one apex predator let alone two

[golden coral]

But that was some stupidly weird pounce power there :p

[tulip star]

I do agree pounce was a bit busted

[golden coral]

Well, that particular one was. But that was fixed, thank god :p

[true ginkgo]

Option A: Nerf stego down to make an apex into an animal which gets hunted by smalls. Most balanced but completely jarring both visually and gameplay wise.
Option B: Keep as current. Looks and feels correct, but is completely unbalanced in the current ecosystem.
Option C: Remove until there is suitable competition and carnivores. Avoids the problems above, but stego mains will be very unhappy.

Honestly I hate every single one of those.

[tulip star]

Option a would be the best

[hollow canyon]

Thank the devs they finally set the hp pools to be as large as they should be instead of artificially bloating Utah's hp causing all kinds of balance issues like Carno having way too high of a biteforce than it should have.

[true ginkgo]

unironically prefer option c

[tulip star]

Who cares just down size the creature why remove variety from the already content starved game

[hollow canyon]

It's funny how even in the legacy where the weight was a completely different factor than hp those were usually still the same or about the same for most creatures.

[golden coral]

I sort of prefer option C too, but then I am a stego main and it is jarring to play as one and not feel like one, especially with all the time in progression and all that.

But I don't think that's doable, so it's not really an option

[tulip star]

It wouldn’t make sense too

Especially when u can just downsize and nerf it

It’s not like stego is going to stay that way

[versed rune]

i am still amazed that this current patch was greenlit to be perfectly honest

it threw literally everything off the rails

[tulip star]

^^

[primal dove]

yes

[hollow canyon]

I'm not, it's a step in the right direction

[tulip star]

Too many changes for one patch imo

[winged sierra]

the patch has very strong reasoning behind it

[hollow canyon]

It shouldn't be surprising considering the devs care more about where the game is supposed to end up rather than where it ends up for now

[winged sierra]

have some things been made less fun? Yes, but it's a stepping stone for what's to come

[primal dove]

a step in the right direction maybe but they are going the wrong way towards it

[true ginkgo]

Downsize to 3500kg, change the name to Hesperosaurus (the animal looks like a small stegosaurus anyway).

Change it back to stegosaurus when the ecosystem can handle the upsize.

[golden coral]

Problem is, most of us don't know that reasoning, so it.. seems odd I guess.

[tulip star]

But why make things less fun on purpose

[hollow canyon]

They just don't care about temporary issues. That's also why they'd deleted the global chat - imo way too early.

[golden coral]

And well, more or less fun is subjective

[tulip star]

That seems like the opposite of what a dev team would want

[hollow canyon]

Because the final product isn't supposed to be like this

[tulip star]

No point of changing the name just downsize it

[winged sierra]

simply put, things just weren't right before the patch. Now they are right, but the lack of a suitable roster makes the gameplay now less than ideal, especially compared to what it used to be

[hollow canyon]

^

[golden coral]

I can understand fixing it sooner rather than later, even with roster issues

[hollow canyon]

They also require some additional work - e.g. inertia being a bit too high on smalls

[golden coral]

Because otherwise people get used to stuff

[true ginkgo]

Changing the name isn't hard. It's just text.

[golden coral]

And then suddenly it's different, and people will be upset

[winged sierra]

filipe has hinted at the patch being a necessary precursor to the implementation of diets, so take his word if not mine

[true ginkgo]

It's not going to take the devs 3 months to change a name.

[tight dome]

@past gulch I’d like to know who tf you’re playing with that you’re having trouble killing stuffs

[tulip star]

What’s the point of changing the name it’s pointless who cares that much

[golden coral]

I do agree with Wifi here

I don't think a name change does all that much ^^

[hollow canyon]

People who actually wanted to play stegosaurus might care about it. I personally don't think there's any need to go about changing names and so on - Stego is on the roster and it should play like a Stegosaurus

[tulip star]

Oh my gosh they downsized stego to make it playable in the roster🤯

[hollow canyon]

It's good the way it is

[harsh lark]

Stego is boring the way it is.

[golden coral]

It's also not needed. A better thing would be a little disclaimer telling "this is not the final version of a stego, it's limited for now to fit in better"

[winged sierra]

i can see the want for a new name, but i don't think the devs will find it important enough to bother

[hollow canyon]

And no - I'm not a Stego main, I don't care for the animal

[true ginkgo]

I mean people wanting to play stego will also hate it if their dino is a midget with barely any health.

[harsh lark]

I grew to adult, now nobody wants to fight me because I'm way too powerful for my own good.

[tulip star]

No one said make it have barely any health

You don’t have to nerf it to the extreme

[hollow canyon]

That's why it is good the way it is - not a midget with a decently large health pool.

[true ginkgo]

4000 is barely any health. Last update a utah had 1/4 of a stegos health. That is absurd.

[golden coral]

Honestly, people are too scared of the stego, they've always been. Which is why you had such a disparity between "they all die" or "stego just dies"

[winged sierra]

yes, that is the life of an apex among smalls and mids. It's a hard situation currently

[versed rune]

the only reason stegosaurus is even a discussion right now is because virtually nothing can bring it down, even when they headshot it, which mind you is stego's designated weakspot.

[harsh lark]

You wouldn't even need a nerf, just a revert to last patch where it still 1-2 shot every non deino dino on the roster while also being the second tankiest to boot.

[primal token]

Listen guys stego was hunted by medium sized carnivorous anyways so it shouldn’t be an apex anyways..

[safe anchor]

i think they should start balancing things for what they are.

[hollow canyon]

^

[tulip star]

Meh

[winged sierra]

and we do not have any of the medium sized carnivores that it was hunted by. Do you really want carnotaurus to be effectively taking down stego?

[tight dome]

Ok. Who thinks Utah’s suck now?

[golden coral]

Also wait for diets, then you'll get other challenges, and so on.

[true ginkgo]

Lone allos likly did not hunt fully grown adult stegos solo.

[tulip star]

^^

[golden coral]

Yes, headshot, with sufficent power behind it. Something current roster lacks. And deino is even more unkillable anyway.

[harsh lark]

Apexes shouldn't have a complete pass from worrying about packs of smalls and mids. They should have the potential to overcome them if played well though.

[golden coral]

Not sure why people take issue with stego when we have deino

[primal token]

Thats when Utah is great

[winged sierra]

and they do. Utahs and carnos are perfectly capable to taking down a stego if they are in a large enough group and play smart.

[true ginkgo]

Also, if you want stego to be 'not an apex', what should its counterplay be once the apexes arrive?

Can't hide as it's a walking display board. Can't flee as it's potentially the slowest dinosaur ever known. Can't fight as you want it equal to mids?

[golden coral]

Let's not revert to the prior, bad balance, please and thank you. Rather adjust things a little now if we absolutely need.

[tulip star]

Not in the current patch they don’t lol

[hollow canyon]

They do - they just need to be ready to take heavy casualties in the process.

[winged sierra]

yes they are lol

[safe anchor]

utah had the stats of a mid tier and got smacked with the nerf bat pretty hard making it a aa small which it is.does the utah need some tweaks on its stats sure i thinks so but it was basically op before nerfs on all of its stats

[primal token]

I wish nothing was changed tbh

[true ginkgo]

Deinos all murder each other none stop. So they don't build up like stegos do.

[primal token]

Utah is too weak now

[tulip star]

^

[harsh lark]

Making it mandatory to die no matter how well you play isn't good design.

[winged sierra]

7-8 utahs is enough for a stego, carnos can run in and out in any number and kill stego over time

[versed rune]

i hope we arent going down the "carno had a weak bite" path, and also deino is only unkillable because of its health buff and the damage nerfs to everything else

[golden coral]

And they don't. It's more a matter of the size of the pack of smalls, and mids. Packs of utahs can kill stego as it stands even right now, so there is that. I bet packs of carnos can too, if with more difficulty obviously.

[tulip star]

I Don’t even know who to respond to anymore so many people

[hollow canyon]

It isn't a good design to let a rat that grows 70 minutes kill animals that grow for 5h willy nilly without having to risk much.

[tulip star]

@hollow canyon they get one shot

They’re risking a lot

[hollow canyon]

And it isn't mandatory to die

[primal token]

5-6 utahs should be fine I guess

[harsh lark]

Carno taking 15 head bites to kill stego is definitely pretty ridiculous.

[tulip star]

Head bites *

[primal token]

Depends on the stego player

[golden coral]

Maybe not to you, but to someone else it is.

[tulip star]

But to who?

[harsh lark]

No risk even though Utah got oneshot by stego last patch?

[versed rune]

oh it definitely is. it should be 9-12 headshots.

[primal token]

Fax

[tulip star]

Who thinks having mandatory death is a good idea

It should be based on skill

[golden coral]

Maybe to the devs. I've heard Dondi claim it would take 20 utahs to kill an ai rex, and half the pack would still die. So there is precedent.

No.. just stop with the "skill"

[primal token]

I agree

[golden coral]

It' not a fighting game

[tulip star]

What’s wrong with skill

[golden coral]

Stop thinking it's about fighting

[hollow canyon]

Barely any risk - Utah grows for 70 minutes. I can go on and grow a Utah in a single sitting with ease. Stego requires far more time and is actually pretty screwed if spotted by something while young.

[tulip star]

The isle def is skill

It literally is

[primal token]

Why make a boring game with no “skill”

[versed rune]

its hard to think that its NOT about fighting when there's nothing else to do in the game.

[safe anchor]

yeah utah last patch got one shot by stego tail unless it hit the tail tip

[true ginkgo]

Kissen stated just recently that apexes will be stronger and scarier than legacy apexes.

[golden coral]

There's nothing wrong with it. It's just that there are other values too. You don't need to fight to survive. Sometimes you just run. And so on.

[winged sierra]

"mandatory death" isn't mandatory either. You choose to hunt an apex as a small and you're taking the risk of dying at any moment.

[harsh lark]

It's a survival game, fighting is a part of it, please stop trying to make it something it isn't.

[golden coral]

Because we lack the full gameplay loop. And you know this.

[hollow canyon]

Also - the Utahs can still kill a Stego it's just that the hunt actually takes time as you have to bleed it out.

[golden coral]

You're the one not comprehending survival. You don't have to fight to survive. You can run, you can avoid. You can make other choices.

[tulip star]

Again skill, you just defined it

[safe anchor]

and they should be but with harder diets to follow this making it balanced

[golden coral]

Most of the other is not skill. Not by my definition at the very least.

[harsh lark]

I don't even want to think of how bad that will be lmao. If stego is this strong right now at this rate Rex will be a borderline demi-god.

[true ginkgo]

And long growths too. Having to follow the diets the entire time.

[versed rune]

Of course i KNOW that but time and time again, the most alluring aspect of this game is dinosaurs fighting dinosaurs. always has been, always will be. There is zero reason to make dinosaur interactions so polarizing to the point where the game literally BARS certain creatures from fighting other ones, within reason.

[tulip star]

You should know whether or not your able to handle a certain creature at your point in the game, that’s game knowledge and skill

[golden coral]

It is not. That is just about fine. Much less and it's too easy for the power gap that should be there.

[tulip star]

^^^^^^^^^^

[harsh lark]

Unless I play stego of course, in which case I don't need to run, avoid or even fight given my stats just make predators give up before they even try.

[versed rune]

this is exactly what legacy did and it did NOT work out.

[winged sierra]

and you do. Are you a good utah with 7 other good utahs? Congrats, you can take out a stego

[safe anchor]

yeah it shouldnt be an easy road to get to an adult killing machine like Rex ect,it should be very very hard

[true ginkgo]

Part of the issue with legacy was AI literally spawed on your rex. You could lie down for 6 hours with your mouth open, and AI avas would walk in.

Hopefully ebrima apexes require actual skill to grow.

[tulip star]

Right I’m replying to Erik eden saying there’s no skill

[golden coral]

Not if they are changing how the game works. Which they are. If it's the most alluring aspect to you, that's fine. But it's not to me. I don't mind if I'm barred from fighting others, as long as I can fight some and survive and thrive. And there are reaons, niches, so you choose the right playable, and so on.

[winged sierra]

ah i see, my bad

[true ginkgo]

I do want things to be viable and fun over their entire life though. A juvie rex being speedyboi, chasing dryos and duking utahs. While sub rex has to face off with allos and albertos.

[tulip star]

Should have prob used the reply thing but oh well

[golden coral]

You do. Utah packs can hunt you. So can sufficent amount of carnos most likely to.

[safe anchor]

kinda i do think that sub stage rex should lose to allos and alberto depending on % of growth of course

[versed rune]

But other people do mind. It makes the game much more interesting if every species can potentially pose a threat to you. It becomes a much more high stakes game, rather than “im an apex lol, u can’t touch me”

[golden coral]

Legacy was fine. There are plenty of other issues there, but not what you claim is an issue.

[tulip star]

Damn u spitting fax

[true ginkgo]

Small sub should be fleeing and dead if caught. Large sub should be dominant but slower as it gains chonk.

[sonic flame]

Stego and Deino are borderline apexes living in a world where the largest land carnivore is a Carno. Their perceived invincibility is due to anlacking roster because Stego is a god damn mistake

[golden coral]

I never said that. I don't mind that there's skill involved, but I don't count knowledge and such as skill, so there is that. That's smarts, or other parts, that should also be involved of course.

[harsh lark]

Last patch maybe, now though? I stand in shallow water or near any source of collision and I can't be pounced. Carnos die in a single headshot now, so it's incredibly unlikely you'll run into any who find it worth risking 2 hours on 15 run through bites.

[tulip star]

You said stop with the skill shit

[sonic flame]

Tbf the water is a bug, and rocks and trees are also bugged in being too effective

[alpine plover]

“Legacy was fine”

[hollow canyon]

Those are issues that will be fixed. They aren't a part of the game and aren't taken into consideration when designing it.

[golden coral]

See, you think so. I don't. And that's as far as we get. I mind if we get the game like you want, and you mind if we get the game like I want. Solution to that? Besides, apex does not equate to "can't touch me", that's a strawman. It equates to "only x can touch me", which is not the same.

[sonic flame]

Carno really isnt meant to tangle with a Stego, Utah is only held back by bugs and impatient players

[versed rune]

I agree here. If carno can be clean one shot by stego now then carno’s headshot damage should be much more generous towards it.

[golden coral]

The water is a bug. Invalid. The trees are a potental issue. Carnos were "oneshot" before, it should make no difference. And why not risk it, no point in living right now anyway in the game. But the point is that it's doable, when you said it's not.

[hollow canyon]

Legacy wasn't fine - the fact that smalls got to run through the large animals with no collision and I could take down a Rex with a Dilo was pretty laughable.

[harsh lark]

When the "X" that can touch you is only other apexes who may only make up 10% of the server at best considering how rare apexes will supposedly be, its not a good argument for the entertainment value of apexes.

[golden coral]

It was. Or at least, in this aspect it was. Sure, there are plenty of other issues, but not the one people are complaining about.

[hollow canyon]

The only thing the Rex had to hope for was that it would get a lucky bite off with the dislocated bitesocket.

[golden coral]

It is to me. If you want more constant fighting and so on, that's fine. But then we're again back to subjective opinion.

[true ginkgo]

Now people seem to want smalls to fight apexes even with collision.

[alpine plover]

I think legacy had a good atmosphere and pretty decent maps, but that’s about it in terms of positivity

[golden coral]

In the sense of wanting to be able to do anything just because of skill. I think there should be limits, simple as that.

[true ginkgo]

I miss the temperate style maps of legacy. Miss me with this jungle map.

[hollow canyon]

Ikr even though it's been stated that it will be harder than in the legacy to kill an apex with a pack of smaller animals.

[tulip star]

I never said do anything though

The combat is legacy can’t even compare to evirma so I don’t know why it was brought up

[true ginkgo]

Didn't dondi mention utahs on trike to be like those lions trying and failing to eat a hippo while it just ignores them.

[hollow canyon]

He did

[tulip star]

Dondi also compared para to a deer

[true ginkgo]

https://tenor.com/view/hippo-lions-attacked-gif-8652926

[golden coral]

Everyone so salty because I say legacy was fine ^^

[true ginkgo]

10 ton para goes brrrr

[harsh lark]

I think it's pretty objective to say that apexes shouldn't exist in their own vacuum where they only have to worry about interacting with the handful of other players who obtain apex. In any case, the biggest problem with apexes at this rate is that the gameplay loop will be a breeze for them when they can get to adult and snowball through the rest of growth until they die of old age because nothing can kill them.

[safe anchor]

legacy has never been fine hahah

[hollow canyon]

The fact that Utahs were allowed to be so absurdly broken since the release of Evrima is the main reason why we're even having this conversation.

[tulip star]

So dondi comparing animals to stuff isn’t really anything to go off of

[true ginkgo]

I enjoyd legacy. It had issues, but i spent a long time on it

[golden coral]

I brought up that the issues in legacy was not that "smalls cant touch apexes". There are plenty of issues in legacy, but that particular thing is not an issue.

[golden coral]

No, it's still subjective. You're still basing that balance on what you think. I think most things should be limited in what they interact with, in all sizes. As a troodon, I'd also be limited.

[versed rune]

I agree that there should be limits, but within reason. There should be certain animals that are just pure tanks like trike, but stego is not one of them. It has a literal designated weakspot (its head) and is vulnerable against more agile opponents that can dart in and out (mid tiers). So things like allo, and YES, carno and cerato, should have at least SOME capability to down a stegosaurus. The trade off is that stego can obliterate them in 1-2 hits.

[golden coral]

It's not just apex being "limited", it's that all critters have niches, and positions in an ecosystem.

That comes with limitations of what you can and can not do

What your life looks like

And so on

[tulip star]

Alright I wish I could keep this convo going but unfortunately I have to go

[harsh lark]

What I think is based on what works from a design standpoint for a video game. Saying its a baseless opinion that apexes would have a snowball issue that allows them to breeze through the gameplay loops endgame is just wrong.

[hollow canyon]

Cerato shouldn't be getting even close to Stego, neither should Carno really. Both of those are not built to take on prey larger than themselves.

Allo is an animal that could threaten Stegosaurus but those two - not by any means.

[golden coral]

See, that's where we disagree. I think stego should be right up there with trike and anky, because we need another "rear defender", giving a slightly different approach, which I personally appreciate. We only have three of them that I can think of, stego, anky, kentro. As such, I don't think anything that does not hunt a trike should hunt a stego with any better success.

And yes, stego head is weak, but it's not extra weak, or should not be (no reason for that). The weakness lies in A, it has no attack there, unlike a rex, or trike, or even utah and B, the normal weakness multiplier that everyone has of course. That's plenty enough. So no, carno or cerato should not be touching a stego. Allo and up, I can grant you, but not much below, barring utah and maybe dilo because they're so special.

[versed rune]

Super controversial take, but I’m going to die on this hill. Mid tier carnivores should be the PRIMARY threat to stego, not apexes. Apexes basically HAVE to take a hit from a stego, unless they pull off a perfect ambush to its head. Apexes are too big to maneuver around it properly, we see this with deinosuchus. Mid tier carnivores are smaller, agile, and can deal decent damage. It makes for an interesting gameplay design. And to help emphasize this, reduce stego’s grow time by 1-2 hours.

[golden coral]

Except it's not. Because "what works" comes down to what people find fun, which is not design per say. Since there are many different genres and so on for video games. And I did not say they would be able to "breeze through" any gameplay "loop" or end game at any point. There'd be all sorts of issues for them, but it's more than just dying in a hunt. And do remember when they grow old, they can probably die a lot easier to things. Then there's nesting, diets, and all that. You can't say they'll have it easy because there are limitations on what can do what at a given point in time.

[tight dome]

@tulip star elaborate.

[versed rune]

We don’t have any apex herbivores that basically say “fuck you” to regular apexes but have to actually worry about mid size carnivores. I think it would be a really awesome design, since stego is always depicted battling things smaller than it.

[golden coral]

Not controversial at all to me. I think stego should be strong vs small/agile shit, and large/unagile shit, and vunerable to midtiers. Give a proper swing, and jab. The mids are in the best position to take the swing but live, but juke the jab. Where the small would die to the quick swing, and the large cant juke the power jab very well.

Meanwhile, you have kentro that's vunerable to small shit, because they can dart in despite the spikyness, and large shit, because they have the health to "power through" the defenses. Whereas mids are worse because they don't have that health, but they're also not agile enough to dance around the much more nimble kentros defenses.

Only difference here is I don't count carno as that midtier because it's a frail, small game hunter.

Or at least as of now it is. It could be redesigned of course.

[hollow canyon]

I think it's quite the opposite. It makes no sense for me that Stego would be more vulnerable to smalls than to apexes. It's quite the opposite with the likes of a Trike. Stego has a large AoE attack that can cover a large area around it and hit a target from relatively far away. Trike only has the area in front of it covered by its weaponry and has an entire exposed back that it has no way of defending.

[alpine plover]

In general I’m hoping pseudos won’t be apex food and can actually stand a chance against apexes if the cards are played correctly. For example a good pseudo player should be able to scare off a bad Rex or giga player. Hell. I think 2 acros should be able to have the advantage against a solo giga or rex.

I just don’t want the “oh I grew longer than you so that means I should one shot you” mentality

[golden coral]

Small and mid is not the same, keep that in mind.

[hollow canyon]

I.e. Stego's weaponry makes it far better suited for fighting off smaller animals than that of a Trike which should be better against a single opponent.

[versed rune]

But trike is a literal tank, a carno biting its ass would do virtually nothing to it

And it shouldn’t

[golden coral]

Acro! :D

[alpine plover]

Carno shouldn’t even think about going after a trike unless it wants to go to the selection screen again

[hollow canyon]

Why would Trike take to getting bitten better than a Stego? Is there something about its skin that is special?

[golden coral]

And one-shot is fine, with sufficient size/power difference and all that

[alpine plover]

Yes the big man himself

[golden coral]

But nothing near each others sizes/growth times, should one-shot, longer fights better in that case to me at least

[versed rune]

Or unless it wants to do a little trolling

[hollow canyon]

The only reason could potentially be that the largest Triceratops now might be somewhat larger than the biggest Stegosaurus making it have more health but that's about it.

[alpine plover]

[golden coral]

Used to be one of my favourites in progression! Lacey skin = so good!

Not the biggest fan of the.. redesign.. :p

[alpine plover]

Not a huge fan of it either

I will always love pce acro

[golden coral]

@versed runeI'd still say you'd have an easier time "trolling" a trike over a stego, because of how they work.

[alpine plover]

Who knows how trike will work, it may have a super fast turn attack like deino

[tight dome]

People downvoting my arguement without giving any counter points 🤨🤨🤨

Whack

[golden coral]

We know it has a little hop so there is that!

[alpine plover]

Trike Utah jump please

[versed rune]

Welcome to balance feedback. We hope you like it here 🤠

[spare badger]

Allos hunted stegs, and Allo isn't all that large, so saying packs of ceratos should be able to hunt Steg is super reasonable

[hollow canyon]

Cerato isn't an Allo

[tight dome]

Thank ya kindly

[hollow canyon]

Allo>Cerato in just about every way

especially when it comes to handling animals that large

[vagrant inlet]

They said packs of Cerato

[spare badger]

Packs of ceratos

Not one

[vagrant inlet]

Plural is the key word you missed

[hollow canyon]

So? First of all you'd need to state that Allos didn't do it in packs

which... there's no evidence for

We just know that the two interacted

What the exact circumstances of those interactions were is as of now a complete mystery

we also know that Cerato is completely ill-suited for hunting animals of that size.

[versed rune]

We have to remember though, cera in the isle is different from irl cera

Isle cera we can assume is much more powerful

Now even so

[hollow canyon]

Nothing about what has been said about TI Cerato suggests that it would be good at hunting apex herbivores

[alpine plover]

I wonder how the cera v carno matchup is going to play out

[versed rune]

Out of cera, carno, and allo, I have no doubt in my mind that of those three, cera will have the worst matchup against stego

[hollow canyon]

Quite the opposite - it's been stated to be a bully and a survivalist

[versed rune]

That’s what I mean

[hollow canyon]

None of that screams "Stego-hunter"

[versed rune]

We can assume it will be powerful

I- you’re missing my point

I’m basically saying you’re right

[spare badger]

Would stego be considered an apex herbivore?

[versed rune]

Yes and no??????

Idk if I’d call it a pseudo apex

[tight dome]

Idk honestly

[versed rune]

But idk if I’d call it an apex either?

[tight dome]

Isn’t it a tier below shant and trike in Legacy

[spare badger]

Maybe borderline bit it seems too small

Like a pseudo

[tight dome]

We consider Shants and Trikes apex herbies.

[golden coral]

It depends on what we mean with the term "apex" honestly

Also I'd imagine cerato being better at hunting stego than carno at least

[spare badger]

Acro level strength?

[hollow canyon]

I know, I'm not so much referring to what you're saying, Kryptops, I'm just hammering the point that there's nothing about Cerato that would suggest it will be capable of hunting a Stego

[golden coral]

Which I'm sure Kryptops here won't like :p

[versed rune]

I mean

[alpine plover]

I would honestly consider stego a pseudo

[golden coral]

But carno is even more limited in agility, while not having the health to back up taking a hit

Whereas I imaigne cerato is more agile

And thus stands a better chance of avoiding the hit, even if it also can't take a hit

[versed rune]

I just think that’s faulty logic. Cause even tho carno isn’t that maneuverable he’s still faster than cera

[spare badger]

That's fair

[versed rune]

Cera would be a pretty easy target

[golden coral]

You think speed would be more important vs stego than agility, alright. I'm not sure I agree but I can see your point there.

[alpine plover]

Cera will likely have the hp and physical damage advantage

[versed rune]

That’s why I think cera will have the worst matchup out of our three mid tiers, allo, carno, cera

[golden coral]

It's possible. I just imagine carno is very much, unable to react if the stego sees it, whereas a cerato can go "oop, nvm, turn aside"

[spare badger]

Cera will be at a bit more risk of being caught by a swing

[stark knoll]

cera isnt really a mid imo

[spare badger]

They're increasing its size tho right