balance-feedback-discussion

[thin mantle]

I definitely have, turning while being chased pretty much kills you

[tacit oriole]

When I get on later I'll take a quick vid of how it works for me to compare, might be an issue you are having specifically, or it might just be something I'm not noticing

[wintry mountain]

its very hit or miss

Really dont feel its effects unless your being chased personally

[tacit oriole]

The turning did feel natural but yeah, dunno how normal people can juke carnos with the new speeds

[wintry mountain]

Speed change wouldnt really be an issue

as they all lost the same amount

[tacit oriole]

Yeah, the speeds are all lower but carno turnspeed isn't

And slowing everything down makes it easier for carnos to track you

Same for carnos doing drive-by headshots on stegos

Easier to hit them now

Easier for tenos to land slams, all that

[wintry mountain]

The Speed nerfs were a thing overall, it was just the agility hit that really caused issues

It really isnt just a utah issue

Hypsi and Dryo are bad too

[vagrant mural]

Dryo unironically turns like legacy carno now while sprinting

[minor cipher]

@fresh laurel @quick latch If you want to discuss balance suggestions do so in here please, no need to be replying to others in the feedback chat.

[wintry mountain]

I'd personally like to see the small guys have their intertia toned down to allow them to be agile again(as they should be)

Increased agility gives more leeway for Utah to land and escape from pouncing

Thus preforming hit and run tactics better as it should

without re-oversaturating its bleed output to the level of update 3 when it really doesnt need it

[thin mantle]

I just want inertia removed, it doesn't add anything new or interesting to gameplay it just makes movement more frustrating

[wintry mountain]

Removed, toned down, either or

[quick latch]

alright sorry my bad

[tacit oriole]

I agree with a lot of what @hollow canyon said earlier... I'd like to see slam dealing less damage and kick more without the stun

[thin mantle]

If I had to compromise I'd give inertia to really large animals instead of the ones we have rn

[vagrant mural]

Yeah hypsi being butchered due to inertia just feels bad

[wintry mountain]

A solution needs to be found

[tacit oriole]

Small dinos need more than just 'dont get found". There still needs to be two outcomes - you live or die - based on skill

[wintry mountain]

I respect the calls for buffs and nerfs but, from a personal standpoint after playing with the changes non-stop, I really cant get behind buffing utah anymore than it already has bleed wise. Players just need to get used to the new meta for it and adjust.

I have been front and center to experience both utahs packs getting completely dumpstered, or do well if played right

9/10 I see them die because they made a stupid mistake or their agility just isnt up to par with what it should be

[tacit oriole]

Being chased by a big dino and your only skill-based outcome is how many seconds before you get eaten will crush the soul of small Dino players

[wintry mountain]

Disregarding attributes like carnos alt bite speed ofc

Aye, rectifying the issue with their agility should help

Smaller animals should generally always have maneuverability on their side

[tacit oriole]

OG dryo was great in that regard, good dryos would keep coming out and taunting carnos and having a ball evading them

And it was fun to chase them too

[wintry mountain]

Small guys simply need to revert to post hotfix agility

[golden coral]

Have to ask what you mean with OG dryo? :p

[tacit oriole]

Legacy dryo was pretty OP lol

But U3 dryo was good too

U3.5 dryo is just sadge

[golden coral]

U3 dryo, how did it differ from the 3.5 one, if I can ask?

[hollow canyon]

I think Agouti is referring to the pre-patch Dryo as "U3" Dryo

Agouti, you've probably forgotten that Update 3.5 was released in late May

like - that update was literally referred to as "update 3.5" it's the one that changed how the water works in the game

[golden coral]

Oh, okay.

[thin mantle]

I'm genuinely happy that most people aren't enjoying the agility nerfs (not talking about speed nerfs those are entirely fine)

[golden coral]

Yeah, I've noticed you really aren't a fan of the new inertia.

[thin mantle]

Indeed

It's more so that I can't find a reason to add it, just makes movement less responsive and less smooth

[flint ocean]

Also adding onto what @past gulch has said is that you also get 2 shot, yes i get it and i understand it's supposed to be squishy but getting 2-1 shot by a teno or carno as an adult utah is stupid. punishing an animal but let others get away for making a mistake is stupid. also you can't use pounce now just like in the early days of evrima because you don't know whether you'll die or not. example https://www.twitch.tv/scopeog/clip/AbstemiousGentlePandaKeyboardCat-pUhscm3xpEGP_wL1?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time because the pounce doesn't work.

[thin mantle]

Wait what do you think about it I can't remember?

[golden coral]

I haven't really tested out much, so can't say as of yet. From what I've heard, it seems to be way too much on the smaller animals and most certainly need a bit of work.

I'm not going to say it's an outright bad idea, because it depends on if it can be balanced and all that.

[thin mantle]

Conceptually speaking I just think it doesn't make sense in a game like this for creatures below 3 tons to have this effect. With the way combat works and how small creatures are balanced to avoid damage rather than tank it, they need those on a dime turn speeds to compensate. I really didn't see any issue with turning pre hotfix, and now movement for teno utah hypsi and dryo is just..... well basically I've switched to stego xD Because it's not very noticeable on stego and it's just too debilitating to play the other dinos rn. I’m not even a big fan of stego gameplay, I’m just happy that when you change direction it doesn’t massively disadvantage you

[dawn falcon]

Really can’t wait to see how people counter my point.

https://tenor.com/view/popcorn-eating-popcorn-movie-time-gif-12551924

[alpine plover]

Utah needs buff becau

[fathom obsidian]

i think you times are off thats it

the buck ones i mean

[dawn falcon]

What’s the number

[fathom obsidian]

you are certainly not safe staying latched for 4 or 5 sec

[golden coral]

I didn't have any issues pre-inertia either, so we agree there. I'm just not willing to say the idea is outright bad until it's been worked over. But you're right, agility and juking is what the smaller and weaker animals tend to rely on, so that's a given that it works. And yeah, being that I main stego, I don't normally know what "fast" or "agile" means so I wouldn't notice much of a change I suspect. Stegos.. just waddle along, as they should! I didn't even think stegos had any inertia since they don't really run around trying to juke something anyway. I would however point out that it's not just weight, it should also be determined by how the critter should play and so on. Carno is not heavy, but we can still make an argument that it should have inertia compared to a utah because of how it should play and behave in general.

[golden coral]

I think you are, from what I've heard. Also tested numbers from what I know.

[dawn falcon]

I’ll just decrease it to 3-4 seconds

[true ginkgo]

So.... carno alt bite nerf, tenoto tail slam nerf, and small tier agility buff?

Means the utahs (and other smalls) can actually dodge around and change direction fast, using skill to avoid the attacks of larger animals.

[dawn falcon]

Yeah

That sounds good

Also a carno charge nerf so it doesn’t one shot Utah’s

[fathom obsidian]

well a utah is dead anyway if it gets hit so who cares

if it get oneshot

[golden coral]

@dawn falconDo we know how much a utah does per second in damage/bleed while pouncing or something?

[dawn falcon]

Atleast if the Utah is on the ground it’s a distraction so the other members can pounce

[fathom obsidian]

yetrue

[dawn falcon]

Last I checked it drains about 1/6 of a stegos bleed gauge

Though

[true ginkgo]

Yeah I don't like carno charge being able to instikill utahs (and things like galli/pachy if going by weight).

Using the charge to floor them, and then turning round to bite to finish is much better.

[dawn falcon]

Take what I said with a grain of salt as I’m not a professional tester

[fathom obsidian]

no way 1 full pounce takes a couple of pixel from a stego bleed pool

[true ginkgo]

One of my issues last patch was 500kg utah took a charge + two bites. While a 500kg stego just instidied on a charge.

Charge + a bite is more fun and balanced. So a slight nerf to charge would be good.

[dawn falcon]

Ah.

[hollow canyon]

The issue is that if you change the damage of the charge you also heavily impact the match up against Tenonto

So unless you nerf Teno quite severely on top of that it will make Teno have the upper hand by a large amount in this match up.

(whilst Teno is probably the second biggest winner of the last patch next to Stego anyways).

[primal dove]

yes, maybe with a bleed change/update since it´s pretty useless in the current meta

[dawn falcon]

Which is why it’s tail slam needs to be nerfed a bit

Atleast so it doesn’t one shot Utah’s anymore

[woeful walrus]

@dawn falcon love the profile pic but also herbis need a bit of a nerf because my croc family is being hunted by 3 stegos that are cheating as they just keep coming back and we can’t do anything

We killed 1 and a full grown came straight back

[dawn falcon]

Are y’all in the water?

[woeful walrus]

Yes

[dawn falcon]

Then you’re fine

[woeful walrus]

And they’re sitting at the banks waiting

[dawn falcon]

Crocs shouldn’t be taking on stegos unless they’re in a pair

As long as they aren’t like

Closing in on you from either side of the river

[woeful walrus]

I did have a pair and we killed one

[primal dove]

u are dead anyway when a teno tail slams you since you get stunned

[dawn falcon]

Atleast it’s a distraction for teno so you can pounce it

[woeful walrus]

There’s 3 stegos 2 are on each side of river and 1 next to pond

[dawn falcon]

Each side?

[primal dove]

ok that makes sense

[dawn falcon]

So they’re trapping you in the river?

[woeful walrus]

Yes

I can’t go to pond as there’s one more there

[dawn falcon]

Okay best scenario is to move downstream or upstream to try and escApe the stegos or try to take out another full stego.

[woeful walrus]

And I can’t go on shore to move to centre

[golden coral]

Oh, is this near the waterfall?

From the pond?

[dawn falcon]

Wait this is near pocket?

[woeful walrus]

Yes

[golden coral]

I don't know, it could be? They did mention a pond, and it's the only one I know of

Hm

[dawn falcon]

Okay

Here’s the plan

[woeful walrus]

It’s at waterfall

[primal dove]

wait I know these stegos what the f- they´re still there? I logged out 3h ago and they already were there

[woeful walrus]

We killed one and it came back straight away

[primal dove]

ffs

[dawn falcon]

Hm

This is a tricky situation

[woeful walrus]

I have a suspicion they are cheating because they can see us underwater

[golden coral]

The foliage/water hack isn't fixed... Damn

[woeful walrus]

And apparently they insta grow cuz we killed one and few mins later a full adult comes straight back

[dawn falcon]

Try to make them seem like you’re heading to pocket and then turn back and run down to the center river.

Gotta distract them somehow

[golden coral]

If they can see them underwater, that ain't going to work

[woeful walrus]

Can’t do that because there already is a stego at pocket

[dawn falcon]

Wait really?

[golden coral]

Otherwise it would possibly work, if they could trick them by going underwater

[woeful walrus]

And when I tried to do that they followed me downstream

I’ll show you

[primal dove]

guys remember this is #balance-feedback-discussion go to #evrima-eu if u want to talk about that

[golden coral]

Yeah.. sorry :p

[dawn falcon]

No not actually go to pocket, swim in the direction to pocket and make them follow you, and then submerge yourself and turn back and run

[primal dove]

all good :3

[dawn falcon]

Lyesh sorry

Yeah*

[woeful walrus]

Let’s go to the other chat

[thin mantle]

Yes absolutely, although I don’t think carno needed a further reduction in turn rate than what it already had. Carno already had a slow acceleration and a slow turn while running, this made it so players could strategically stop sprinting using trot to turn tighter at the cost of speed. That sounds like inertia but the difference now is that the ability to turn sharper has been drained of its player input and is now a mandatory aspect of turning in general, which eliminates a once valuable aspect of chases that Carno players had to consider.

[golden coral]

I get the idea. Though as for if carno was fine before or not, well, there's a whole host of opinions on that one I'm sure. The walk/trot turn trick is old, from legacy even! But I absolutely get it, though maybe inertia could be worked on to still allow for something like that?

[thin mantle]

I get that concepts from legacy are usually looked down upon but I think this one makes sense to have regardless, it’s simply adds more player input and makes the player understand that their hunting failures are a result of them not doing something correctly instead of:
“oh well their inertia was better so it makes sense I didn’t catch them”
That actually sounds a whole lot more like legacy but in legacy it was:
“Well they had a better turn rate so what else am I supposed to do”
It makes a players failures feel arbitrary, because they wouldn’t even be of the fault of the player if a raptor escapes a Carno due to better inertia, they just had the better stats so they got away (sounds a whole lot like legacy)

[golden coral]

Seeing as I'd be one of the few that don't think everything was bad in legacy, or that the issues some see in legacy are not things I see as an issue, I don't mind if you're okay with something from legacy. So don't worry about that. Tracking in legacy is a great example of how footprints were better there than they are in Evrima for example.

I'm not sure I quite agree, because to me it sounds like there's a decision to be made in how to approach there honestly. The failure isn't quite as arbitrary if you keep in mind if you know the turn or inertia, you can compensate for that by changing your approach or angle for your own attack and so on. And seeing that I do believe stats should make a clear difference, I don't mind that half as much as some others do. If you know the stats, you can compensate for them after all.

[silver drum]

completly destroyed this game with lasdt update some ome had one to many drinks when they aproved this changes quit game for good. garbage is the only word that comes to mind when evaloating this changes good by isla

[thin mantle]

Coming from the perspective of someone who only really plays Utah Teno and Carno, I can assure you that inertia does nothing more for combat than make player movements more predictable. Prep only plays a small part in combat, as it should, because this is a competitive pvp oriented survival game. If all fights could be greatly influenced before they even begin through positioning, then it reduces the skill ceiling. This is simply a universal negative and makes combat very 1 dimensional in practice. Failures would become arbitrary as a result and successes would be less satisfying.

[silver drum]

\well sead you hit the nail in the head

[golden coral]

See that's where we severely disagree again. It's not a pvp-oriented game, it's a survival/horror-oriented game with pvpve. That means prep is by far the greater part than the actual fight if anything. Inertia making it more predictable, I'm not sure is an issue there. I get that you will not like this, but I really don't like your approach either.

To me the positioning, stalking, planning, and all that is the main part of the hunt. Skill is still there, in interactions, but smarts take precedence, as it should in my eyes. So to me it's more a universal positive, because this is not a combat game. Sure, combat should be interactive and fun and all that, but it's just part of the overall hunt, just like hunting and killing is just part of the overall gameplay loop at that.

I'm not sure how that is arbitrary, though I could misunderstand what the word means. I'm also not sure how you're using the word competitive here, but the way I read that, it's all wrong for this kind of game. To me, success = getting what I need, in one way or another. And that is always satisfying because it means I remain alive, which is the entire point of the game.

[sinful cove]

utah isnt being subjected to realism at all, it's already super fictionalized lol

what is that dude talkin about

[golden coral]

Also there's nothing wrong with realism. Can we please stop equating this or that with the ever so subjective "fun". Fun is something everyone has a different idea of, as me and Fluff are demonstrating here.

[sinful cove]

realism can be good or bad, it isnt inherently either

it can always be used as an inspiration, i dont see how it relates to utah's situation though

[alpine plover]

Utah can survive = viable

Many ppl currently thinking : Utah can't take on Stego as solo = Utah isn't viable.

[frosty heron]

That's your thinking and yours only actually

[alpine plover]

Why can’t I take on this animal 10 times my size by myself

[sonic needle]

A Utah can take a Stego solo when hes thinking about his tactics

[sinful cove]

i guess they miss their jurassic park superpredator gameplay, personally my computer's been acting too shitty for me to test it out myself yet so i cnt really comment lol

[thin mantle]

Well this ultimately comes from a perspective difference when it comes down to what we value in a game. Playing Utah and getting kills isn’t entertaining, likewise for Carno. The only interactions that are engaging is Teno v Carno right now, because utahs are insanely easy to kill and stego is untouchable (it should be but the point still stands). The vast majority of people would place combat as the more important of the two, staying alive for most is simply a vehicle to get you to your next combat encounter. That’s why so many people gravitate towards carnivores, the playstyle is just more interesting and skill testing. We can make staying alive as interesting as we want, and I agree we should because that would add so much more depth to the game than it has now, but encountering other dinos and adapting in the midst of great odds is the primary drive for most people to continue playing, it’s why people have played legacy for 5 years still and continue to play Evrima. Getting combat to be less procedural and more a measuring of adaptation and application is objectively better because that’s why people play games. They are meant to be interactive.

[alpine plover]

Possible.

But knowing that this game is filled with children, I wouldn't be so sure about that.

[golden coral]

@thin mantleI'm also not sure we use the word skill floor/ceiling the same way. Because to me, nothing of what I said would lower/remove a skill ceiling. Skill is literally how good you are at executing a certain action, nothing more or less. Floor would imply what the minium requirement to do so is, ceiling how difficult it is to reach "perfection" with it.

[sinful cove]

if utah really is capable of surviving as it is rn then i agree too honestly

[sonic needle]

aperantly so many forget that the Utah is a Pack hunter not a solo runner

[alpine plover]

Personally I think utah needs a bleed and agility buff, then it would be enjoyable

Utah is capable of surviving, disagree and your opinion is instantly ignored

[sinful cove]

utah shouldnt only be viable in a pack, but it doesnt need to be hunting things larger than it alone

if it can hunt things its size and smaller alone and escape its predators then it is fine as is

[vagrant mural]

Galli and pachy when they

[alpine plover]

Utah can hunt solo, just not what it used to or not that easily. I do agree they might've been too harsh with Utah, but nerf was needed. I would probably give back a little bit of biteforce to it (around 75-80N) and a bit of agility. But that's it.

[frosty heron]

I never wanted to go solo on Stegos but actually being capable of doing hunting something without the stupid common excuses like "You shouldn't be hunting this or this" when the game roster is stupidly limited and even more when the last 2 playables are linked to a niche

[sinful cove]

god i cant wait for galli, i miss kicking juvies to death

[thin mantle]

Oh ok I’ll put how I define it this way:

A skill ceiling is the potential degree of knowledge, reflexes, strategy, and execution it takes to complete a task.

[alpine plover]

I just don’t like how sluggish it is. For a 450kg animal it just doesn’t seem that mobile

[alpine plover]

Devs implemented error in the roster, that's the biggest problem. Stego shouldn't be in the game rn, neither do Deino.

They could've implenet Beipi to make baseground for aquatics.

[sinful cove]

they should have added kentro and beipi and then the ecosystem would be less shite

[alpine plover]

I'm not crying, because Deino was a long awaited playable, but still. They sometime act against their own saying

Bary would be cool

I would replace deino with bary in a heartbeat

[alpine plover]

I would say it would be probably more fun than Deino currently is.

[thin mantle]

@golden coral The reason this differs from yours is because you define skill as your ability to complete a task, and that’s it. If it were that simple then it would take an incredible degree of skill to hunt a Taco in legacy

[thin mantle]

It would, and it would give Carno competition

[alpine plover]

Carno would probably smack bary tbh but still

It’s better than 8 ton alligator that spins like a ballerina

[sinful cove]

it would be better than deino who can only kill carnos that allow it to lol

same with steg

[thin mantle]

Doubtful, Bary is bigger and has better weaponry to combat animals of a similar size, Carno is optimized to take down creatures that can fit in its mouth

[golden coral]

Of course it does. We have very different views of what constitutes a survival game in the first place, and what values we then want to see in said game. This has been obvious from our first disussions I would think. Which is perfectly fine of course, this is as always a pleasure.

And yes, I get that most value the combat and only stay alive to get to more fighting, which to me is in direct opposition of a survival thinking. Especially playing as an animal. To me it's about surviving, and thriving (nesting, keep your chosen playable population going strong). To me getting a kill is always entertaining, or rather, satisfying I suppose. I get my entertainment from just being the animal and living it's life. That is why this game appealed to me all the way back then.

I would say there is a clear divide between those who's primary drive is what you describe, and those who think more like me, where the primary drive is to just be the animal and live the lifecycle and all that, with combat being just a part of it. So it's not just the only reason why people have played legacy (including progression) for so long. There are at least two different playerbases here, most likely another one or two we're not counting.

Well, I would still say it's adaption and all even if you do it "my way", just in a different manner. Planning, and approaching and positioning is also adapting to the given circumstances you find your prey in and all that. It's not mutually exclusive to putting weight on either the prep part or the fight part the way I see it. And yes, games are meant to be interactive, but interaction comes in many forms, and many different games and genres do exist, some with no combat interactions at all.

[thin mantle]

Well I think we still disagree but I don’t think I have anything more to say😂

[golden coral]

Ah, see. Most of that is not skill at all. Skill to me is only the execution of an action, so that would be reflexes and "execution". The knowledge, strategy, is all part of smarts. But then I fail to see why you'd not put value into positioning and prep. That is where your knowledge and strategy comes in after all.

[hollow canyon]

I think people need to stop saying that Utah needs a bleed buff without playing it - it literally just received one.

[golden coral]

I.. don't think we understood each other if that's your conclusion, seeing that it takes barely any ability to hunt and kill said taco in legacy. Be it a player or AI.

Maybe I missed my phrasing somewhere here.. :p

[thin mantle]

Perhaps, but that’s what your definition was so I didn’t have much to work with😕

[golden coral]

I'm.. not sure we understand each other here right now.

[thin mantle]

Yeah I’ve been subject to doing that exact thing, but that’s mainly because I physically can’t play Utah anymore it’s just lost it’s appeal to me. So I’ll stop

[golden coral]

Anyway, that's fine. And yes, we clearly disagree, but that's just how it is. Sorry if I seem unreasonable or something like that.

[hollow canyon]

Well - bleed is just about the last thing about it that needs a buff

[thin mantle]

Oh I absolutely do put value into prep and positioning, although the degree of which these two things are to the outcome of a battle differ between us

[frosty heron]

No bleed buff but make bucking less stronger than it is

[cedar shore]

@dawn falcon you are right, but i just feel like the health and damage nerf was overtuned

[hollow canyon]

Whenever I see someone saying that Utah needs a bleed buff I genuinely can't stave off the feeling that the person saying that either doesn't play Utah much or plays it completely wrong.

[golden coral]

Very much so. And now I'm stuck trying to figure out where my definition went wrong for you to mention taco taking incredible skill :p

[thin mantle]

Oh no not at all, again neither of us are being purely objective (which I’ve been trying to do as best I can but bias is prevalent in both of us) and that’s partially fine? Although we could be a bit less subjective.

[dawn falcon]

The health for Utah actually wasn’t overtuned. Look at Carno for example. It still kills it with 2-3 hits like before the patch some things were just nerfed for some odd reason, like Utah’s agility, and it’s bleed.

[thin mantle]

Lemme go check it again

[dawn falcon]

Utah just needs better agility, and also to fix that stupid glitch where you get stuck in mid air when you pounce a creature in deeper water

[golden coral]

Maybe it sounds different in my head.. wouldn't be the first time I say something that is obvious to me but doesn't come across at all to someone else.

[frosty heron]

This

[dawn falcon]

Like

Stego launches you off when it fail swings in deep water

But Carno?

You fucking become the air

[frosty heron]

You can literally be safe from pounces standing still at shallows if you know that bug

[golden coral]

Well, the subject is rather .. subjective, so I'm not sure we're doing wrong in not being objective. As long as we're talking about what we value, and how we see the game and what we want, it's purely subjective. Since it all comes down to what we prefer at that point.

[dawn falcon]

If you stand in shallow water the pounce is fine, but when that water get deeper into water that submerges a chunk of your leg, Carno makes you float forever

That needs to be patched ASAP

[thin mantle]

So basically:

Your definition allows entirely mundane tasks to be considered “skillful”
Because it’s literally your ability to execute a task.
This opens up a lot of room for interpretation where slaying the might Taco could be considered incredibly skillful because you executed it well.

[frosty heron]

You should test it at shallows part of the map, it knocks you off if anything you pounce stays there

You just need to be on the middle of the river, it's still happening

[alpine plover]

It depends on the task's difficulty and how well you execute it. That is skill to me.

[thin mantle]

Oh if that were the case my approach would be entirely different😅 I’m actually not advocating for what I “want” in the game, I’m just arguing for what is balanced. Balance is not a subjective thing, it pertains to the base capability of a creature to do different things based on stats alone, no subjectivity exists in a conversation regarding statistics. It’s practically mathematical.

[dawn falcon]

Honestly, here’s how to not make Utah trash

Decrease charge damage
Decrease tail slam damage
Fix the deep water bug which either launches you out of the. pounce or traps you in mid-air
Decrease its inertia therefore making Utah more agile

Make it so you can ACTUALLY pounce uphill

[thin mantle]

Correction: Remove inertia it has no positive qualities

[hollow canyon]

I believe the QA should know about this bug now, hopefully it gets fixed asap.

[dawn falcon]

No I’d rather have intertidal

Inertia*

[thin mantle]

Oh that’s very interesting, you’re the first person I’ve heard say that in the last 2 days

[dawn falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/maybe-robert-downey-jr-sherlock-holmes-rdj-gif-4384335

[golden coral]

Oh, so we're sort of not talking about quite the same thing. This was more so me telling you what I want and how I think a survival game should work and be balanced around. But what is "balanced" is admittedly subjective, as we can clearly see here. Because balance at the end of the day, still has to start with some idea of "this is how it should go", which is inevitably down to preference and belief.

Though yes, you're correct in that term of balance. I should read the whole response before starting to write my own! Yes, objectively balance refers to the actual capabilities, such as being able to jump or not, and so on. But balance is also subjective in what we think the capabilities should be for what our given goal is. Or so I think it works at least. But I obviously missed the statistics and math in our prior conversation :p

Definitions are confusing!

[thin mantle]

So fun fact: Opinions are not inherently subjective.

That would be the first thing I have to say

[golden coral]

Correct. Assuming that the skill floor is high/ceiling is. I wouldn't say walking takes much skill, and I wouldn't say there's much to improve. But for example throwing a punch. Skill floor = low, most of us can do so. But throwing it perfectly, aim, movement, leverage, best impact = ceiling. And that is something you can and probably have to work on. Martial arts being my example here.

[thin mantle]

Yes that is entirely correct😄

[frosty heron]

@cedar shore I agree with the Carno Pack number but then Teno pack limit should be also tonned down

I think it's 8 Tenos currently which is stupid

[hollow canyon]

Yea, both should go down

there's no reason for Carnos to be grouping up to such high numbers

I think 3 is a sensible numbers for Carnos and Stegos

Tenontos? I'd go with maybe 4 for now

[golden coral]

@thin mantleThere you go then! And I would find it hard to believe there is much in slaying the mighty taco, no matter how good you do it, that would demand much more than the baseline. So yeah... xD

[cedar shore]

yeah even worse

4 tenos sounds balanced

you will hardly ever find that many tenos though so its not really a big problem

[hollow canyon]

There just isn't really any good reason for why such relatively large animals should be in high such numbers

[frosty heron]

I did found 8 Tenos, maybe more

[golden coral]

This I need to hear your explanation for. Because that might be the first time I've seen someone claim opinions are not subjective. Though, since you did say "inherently", I do wonder...

[hollow canyon]

That isn't true, UpInSky

I've ran into multiple Tenos

multiple times

groups of 6 or more, sometimes even going above the limit

[dawn falcon]

Decreasing the group limit does not = Less tenos

[frosty heron]

In the same spot I mean

[hollow canyon]

often mixpacking with Stegos

[dawn falcon]

It simply means there will just be a group scent

[thin mantle]

So arguing for what we thing is best can both be subjective or objective. Not at the same time, I’ll explain:

So if you were arguing for what you would want or what would be best for your game preferences and desired experiences, that would indeed be subjective.

If you were arguing for what would be the most functional, that would be objective.
Balance fits into both, but objective balance is more useful that subjective balance, because ultimately that is a unique mindset that belongs to you alone.

[dawn falcon]

As the group gets higher than 4

But

Overall

[hollow canyon]

I was about to say that any changes to numbers should probably wait until update 4 is released

[dawn falcon]

It’s better than 8 group members lol

[hollow canyon]

so that there are some actual tools to go about controlling the numbers of those animals

[dawn falcon]

But overall

Utah doesn’t need a health boost

[hollow canyon]

the megapack scent is really bad btw. I absolutely hate using sniffing when there's a megapack around as the scent of a megapack is extremely intense and actually covers up the screen

[dawn falcon]

It’s still the same as it was with 1000HP, but some of the attacks for other creatures got buffed which makes them destroy Utah

[hollow canyon]

I think that its opacity should be considerably toned down

[thin mantle]

An Opinion is simply a belief or thought, and objective opinion would be something like:
“The sun is a star”
A subjective opinion would be:
“I enjoy the sun”

[golden coral]

Functional for a given goal, which would still be subjective, mind you. Balance as a definiton can go for both cases, but only one at a time I'd say. And you can't have objective balance without subjective balance first. Since you need something to work from/with to use maths on.

[golden coral]

Ah... I.. think the first is called a fact, not an opinion.

[thin mantle]

If you contemplate that fact it is an opinion.

Objective opinions are based on fact devoid of bias or emotional inclusion. They are a qualitative statement of what exists.

[golden coral]

I think this is another issue of definitions then. To me opinion is not the same as a statement on what is, or how it is, but what you think or feel about said thing.

So while I do fully understand what you're saying here, I make a clear distinction in how I use the word opinion vs fact or statement.

[thin mantle]

It quite literally is, opinion has multiple definitions which is why both types of opinions exist

Although at its most commonly used definition it is a belief or thought

[sonic needle]

isnt this a balance feedback discustion channel and not what a word means?

[golden coral]

I'll grant you that then, but I trust you also understand how I use the word and why it might be useful to not use the same word for both things, even if it does work. And yes, I would be agreeing with how the common use is. And I prefer to keep one definition for one thing, since it tends to require less clearing up, like we're doing now.

[thin mantle]

We’re establishing context, we’ve been discussing balance this whole time

[golden coral]

Oop, right you are Nico. Apologies.

To be fair, we're a little off-topic by now

[thin mantle]

Kinda, I consider this “establishing context and defining terms”

[golden coral]

But you do have a point, we clearly needed to sort it out a bit from our earlier discussion

[thin mantle]

Still balance

[thin mantle]

Yeah man this coulda cleared up so much prior confusion😅

[sonic needle]

i dont think m8 that that sentance has anything to do with balance 😄

[thin mantle]

If you scroll up everything would make sense, but we’ll move

[sinful cove]

That is your opinion

[sonic needle]

true xD

[sonic flame]

what the fu

[golden coral]

Oh oh..

[sonic flame]

that's a novel if I've ever seen one, someone mind giving me the tldr?

[thin mantle]

I… Erik is such a thing possible??

[golden coral]

Eh... Me and Fluff are debating our views of the game, of survival games in general, how and what we want and prefer, and so on. In the context of the balance changes and how the Isle currently works of course.

[thin mantle]

And balance….

There’s that too

😉

[sonic flame]

oh gotcha, so it's less discussion of a specific feedback post and more the general things of what you consider balance in the context of The Isle and the survival game genre as a whole?

[golden coral]

Well yes, it does spawn from the current changes and if we like and dislike it and why and so on.

[thin mantle]

Ding ding ding

[hollow canyon]

I think they're discussing inertia

[golden coral]

This time it started with Inertia yes

[hollow canyon]

just in a very... ermm unorthodox way

[sonic flame]

Utah Dryo and Hypsi could use inertia increases imo

[thin mantle]

That’s been a part, albeit small, of the discussion

[sonic flame]

and kick carno in the fucking knees, bastard is too mobile in tight spaces

[thin mantle]

Inertia just, I have tried but I can’t find the positives of its existence

[hollow canyon]

Carno didn't strike me as very mobile while running at full speed

[sonic flame]

Inertia serves to allow smaller animals to have higher agility than larger ones, something possible without it but still helpful in widening the gap

[thin mantle]

Yeah Carno was never competent in forests

[hollow canyon]

isn't it even worse than it was on the previous patch?

[sonic flame]

Carno is worse at it yeah

[dawn falcon]

It’s based on FPS I think

[sonic flame]

but Utah's lack of agility makes it so Carno can easily follow it into the forest

[dawn falcon]

Lower FPS usually means slower turn for some reason

[hollow canyon]

It's more so a Utah problem then

[sonic flame]

It's a bit of both

[hollow canyon]

Carno turned like a bus even on the previous patch

while running of course

[sonic flame]

truthfully Carno could still use the hit as juking it in open ground flat out isn't possible for most of the small animals

[thin mantle]

Well we already had that, a Carno at full sprint had a wildly different average turn than a Utah did, now it’s just bigger but instead adds the “benefit” of a less responsive movement system

[hollow canyon]

Utah felt much better than previous patch Carno in my experience even after the introduction of inertia

[sonic flame]

You can evade for a few seconds but it can and will get on you

[hollow canyon]

it wasn't "good"

but it was still better

[hollow canyon]

I think that's due to the small animals being just overtly affected by the inertia from the balance patch onwards.

[sonic flame]

Tbf that's due to inertia being based on FPS for some reason (bug) and the small animals having the same inertia as the big animals (also bug)

It's currently a flat value that decreases as framerate drops

...for some reason

[cedar shore]

What do you feel about this balance patch overall though?

[golden coral]

Oh boy. So I should just stick to my stego with my 20 fps then, yeah? :p

[hollow canyon]

I haven't had any issues avoiding Carnos prior to that change, matter of fact from the short time that I've played an adult Utah before it got wiped it wasn't too bad either although I was close to a forest so I lost it easily

[sonic flame]

Well I needed to give myself a few days with it, and I'm feeling that overall it was a good step forward but some key adjustments are needed

[thin mantle]

Some animals really shouldn’t have it, I can agree that massive creatures should have inertia but the only two that qualify for that would be stego and deino. Carno already had movement limitations that kept it from being agile, and they worked perfectly fine

[cedar shore]

what ajustments would you say?

[thin mantle]

Hey that’s what I’m doing🤝

[sonic flame]

I think it's meant for the larger animals, the smaller ones tho got it because I don't think it was meant to release as early as it did

[thin mantle]

Yeah, perhaps it was a physics test to see how it would operate? But currently it kinda makes Utah unplayable due to have much Carno fodderizes you

[sonic flame]

Well given that things like "give stego new attack" aren't possible without the devs wanting to do that anyway, I'd want to see Teno and Carno damage dropped a bit since they were unchanged mostly. This has the side benefit of giving Utah a little more breathing room without restoring it to the unusually tanky nature of update 3.5. Pounce has a bunch of bugs that need to be fixed, bleed is broken as well and needs to be fixed, the inertia needs to be fixed or removed, and hunger/thirst durations need to increase

oh and juvi carno too fast

[sonic flame]

Well it wasn't a part of the balance changes, so I'm betting it was unintentional test that slipped into the public build

[thin mantle]

It was included in the patch notes on steam🤷‍♂️

[cedar shore]

I agree tbh. carno really needs a nerf, especially so there is room for slower larger mid tiers

[sonic flame]

on steam yes, but not in QA's balance notes

[cedar shore]

I was worried cera would just be inferior to carno when it would come

[thin mantle]

Keep in mind it did receive a nerf of 150n to its bite force

[sonic flame]

Eh Cera would be balanced around Carno and Teno

[cedar shore]

yeah but utah got a 55% health nerf so..

[thin mantle]

Indeed, honestly all this fix has proved to me is that deino should have been Cera and stego should’ve been kentro

[sonic flame]

the problem is that Carno and Teno are balanced around each other, while Utah kinda got unfairly fucked

[cedar shore]

yeah..

[sonic flame]

They should've. Stego was a mistake. Deino was only 'okay' because of Stego

[thin mantle]

Oh I know Utah is in a depressing state, especially with inertia negating it’s agility

[spare badger]

True

[sonic flame]

See Utah I think is in a place that is okay for it, but Teno and Carno got away with too few changes

[cedar shore]

I feel like the damage nerf was unneeded, utah allways have to rely on pouncing and bleed when taking on bigger prey

[thin mantle]

Deino is a really neat animal, it just has nothing that challenges or threatens it outside the occasional losing stego

[spare badger]

Or Baryonyx
Cause semi aquatic update

[sonic flame]

Teno and Carno are hitting like they are 3 tons instead of less than 2

I think the damage nerf is fine because as a rule fights should be longer than 1-2 minutes unless its one of the animals that has a specific burst damage option/ambushes are involved

before the changes, if a fight lasted longer than 30 seconds you fucked up somewhere/were fighting something you shouldn't be

[thin mantle]

Yeah Bary would’ve been great. Once Allo is in they could add Sucho. Once Spino is in they could add deino. Like just stack the tiers up instead of just adding 1 from each category

[sonic flame]

Stego came too early due to it's stupid Ai not being ready, but holding it back didn't make sense with so few animals, Kentro wasn't planned to come at that time either

so we got Stego in Update 2

[golden coral]

And much regret was had over that decision

[cedar shore]

Stego really needs a faster tail swipe/jab

[thin mantle]

I just wish they were working on kentro to begin with instead

[cedar shore]

its waaaay to easy to bait out

Like carnos could bait it out easily

[sonic flame]

then Deino because it's the only full on aquatic, all the others are either unmodeled (austro,bary) too large for the current roster [didn't stop Deino] (sucho,spino) or just otherwise weren't planned that early and thus didn't have specifics [bepi,minmi]

[thin mantle]

Not anymore, it’s got a drastically better turn rate now

[cedar shore]

really?

Havent tested it yet so

[thin mantle]

Indeed, it got a turning rate improvement that basically makes inertia that much worse for the rest of us😁

[sonic flame]

Honestly yeah, but I understand why they didn't have it ready, Stego's been teased for Evrima since the hope trailer so they wanted it in early, while Kentro didn't have a model shown off till the new roadmap iirc

[dawn falcon]

How

I mean Utah and Deino really should be the only thing hunting a stego

Utah in packs and Deino in pairs

[thin mantle]

We aren’t talking about Carno tho

We’re actually talking about Utah primarily

[dawn falcon]

So I really don’t understand how the turn increase made Utah a lot harder

Or the inertia I should say

[fathom obsidian]

@sonic flame is it intended that utah cannot pin a 0% carno until the utah reaches at least 40%? even 39% is not enough

[thin mantle]

Inertia makes dodging or redirecting while running incredibly difficult and unresponsive. It’s Turn rate on top of the speed nerf makes getting to optimal positions for pouncing very difficult as well

[sonic flame]

It's based on mass, if you are lighter than the carno then you cannot pin it

this may change in the future

[dawn falcon]

Just decrease Utah’s inertia and it’s good to go

[fathom obsidian]

yueah but 40%, utah also looks huge compared to baby carno

[dawn falcon]

It’s as simple as that

[sonic flame]

however the reason it's like that atm is because there is nothing a pinned animal can do, just 0 counterplay

[dawn falcon]

^

[thin mantle]

Or just remove it, inertia doesn’t have gameplay benefits

[sonic flame]

Your option if you can be pinned is "don't get pinned" which for most slow juvis is basically "don't get spotted"

[dawn falcon]

It makes creatures that are supposed to weigh a lot feel more immersive

And create immersive movement

Also it becomes easier to adjust turn speeds with it

[sonic flame]

Utah may be putting on weight a bit too slowly atm, due to some changes to growth

[fathom obsidian]

i disagree since now they can survive since the raw dmg is laughable and the bleed only put it to 30% pool

[sonic flame]

can always be adjusted

[dawn falcon]

Thought

Though

Utah suffers too much inertia

[sonic flame]

Bleed is bugged atm causing it do deal less damage than it should 9/10 times

[dawn falcon]

Which is something easily adjustable

[thin mantle]

Dryo hypsi teno Utah And ptera just shouldn’t have it

[dawn falcon]

Everything should have it

But

[fathom obsidian]

good to know nova

[dawn falcon]

At smaller amounts

[sonic flame]

by all accounts numbers wise, it should be fatal, but it isn't because of that bug which was only found out today because I was confused by your doc

turns out some math is fucky and needs tweaking

[dawn falcon]

The smaller the Dino, the less severe the inertia

[fathom obsidian]

so i did something right Pog

[thin mantle]

So for realism sake make movement less smooth and more unresponsive?

[dawn falcon]

Dryo, hypsi, and Utah shouldn’t even be suffering with this high of an inertia

[thin mantle]

I hope I’m not strawmanning

That’s just how it comes off to me

[dawn falcon]

If it were to function as programmed instead of it being overtuned, than no

[thin mantle]

So I’m sorry if I’m wildly misinterpreting you

[sonic flame]

I mean inertia is not customized to animals right now

so ideally for smaller ones it'd basically have no impact

[dawn falcon]

So it’s set the same for every Dino?

[sonic flame]

yep

[fathom obsidian]

to be honest i dont think utah feels bad at turning, carno feels worse than utah

so i find it easier to dodge em

[sonic flame]

just made a surprise entrance when pushed to public, I think it was in a QA build but I'm not sure, I was on vacation

[thin mantle]

Or adjustments depending on the physiology of the creature, like quadrupeds having less inertia as a baseline

[sonic flame]

Yeah I was thinking something similar

tbh I don't know how it works in engine tho, so I don't know what's possible

[thin mantle]

The amount of inertia teno has rn is actually hilarious, it’s basically the opposite of immersion

Turns as if it just stopped moving

[sonic flame]

I was able to juke a Carno as a stego juvi because of the inertia lmao

[thin mantle]

That is…. Wow

[sonic flame]

Yeah that's when I noticed something wasn't right

[thin mantle]

Yeah Carno should be able to run in more directions than straight🤨

[sonic flame]

oh I haven't seen anyone talk about this, how is the carno charge speed?

It's moving much faster than it used to proportionally, but the same total speed

[thin mantle]

It kinda feels like the og Carno charge speed, so yeah a lot proportionately faster

Not quite that fast tho

[sonic flame]

It's actually the exact same speed

and bit of it feeling slower is inertia I'd bet

[thin mantle]

Oh that makes sense, thanks!

I needed to know that😅

[golden coral]

You're going to have nightmares over inertia by the time this is all said and done!

[dawn falcon]

Good info

[sonic flame]

I already have nightmares about this game's fucking balance

Balancing rex

[scenic heron]

Pls no your triggering half the playerbases PTSD

[sonic flame]

Oh you think that's bad, wait till we get to Allo

[scenic heron]

Legacy or evrima?

[sonic flame]

all the Utah players that are mad that the animal can't solo Stegos anymore won't have anything on the Allo players

Legacy Allo mains coming to Evrima

[scenic heron]

Oh no

[sonic flame]

in Legacy Allo was a generalist that did everything good

in Evrima it'll actually have to stay in its lane and use its tools

[scenic heron]

Except evrima allo will be fast af

[sonic flame]

so ideally it won't be easy mode anymore

[scenic heron]

Maybe

[golden coral]

I'm curious about the dilos too :p

[sonic flame]

personally I'd lock most of its damage behind the grapple, it's bite would still hurt, but you should be using the grapple to really cripple things fast and make sure they can't get you back

[dawn falcon]

Also was the fact that it takes so long to eat food intended for update r

4

[sonic flame]

Dilo is gonna be painful

[sonic flame]

yeah

[dawn falcon]

Oh

Hmmmm

[sonic flame]

this entire balance pass was for update 4

[dawn falcon]

Interesting

[sonic flame]

but surprise it made it into the hotfix

[tall bronze]

Just imagine having to balance stats while also taking diets into account

[fathom obsidian]

come on no one is mad bc utah cant solo stego, we are mad cuz we didnt keep 3.5 bleed dmg, and others animal kepts their dmg (stego tail,teno kick and tail, carno ram)

and deino bite

[dawn falcon]

Remember he said bleed is bugged

[sonic flame]

Stego and Deino are keeping their damage to put them above the others, Teno and Carno need a kick in the knees imo

[fathom obsidian]

yeah

but i was explaining why

will see after bleed fix

[sonic flame]

honestly after bleed and the pounce bugs are fixed it might need to be reduced again

[dawn falcon]

What needs to

[fathom obsidian]

why the hate lol

[sonic flame]

Utah's pounce bleed

[dawn falcon]

Ah

[fathom obsidian]

i dont get why utah gets so much hate honestly

[sonic flame]

don't want to make it where a single Utah pounces you, you buck it off and kill it, then die of bleed anyway

[tall bronze]

I think it's due to the types of players it tends to attract.

[golden coral]

If the carno and teno loses out on damage, then it should be fine if the utah pounce is also lower in bleed

[fathom obsidian]

remeber that utah have the only punishment for missing its special also

[golden coral]

Then they're all losing out on some of their old power

And yes, remove the stun, add stamina drain. Still punishment for spamming, but less so. Just make it cost half your stam.

You miss, you need to go recover

But you get out alive

[fathom obsidian]

exept thats not even remotely true bc buck is insane and you apply little bleed in that window

[golden coral]

And then remove the slotting and we're good

[sonic flame]

So buck takes about 7 seconds to dislodge a Utah, closer to 10 on a Stego who has a slower buck

[fathom obsidian]

and thats not true also pog

5.5 sec as carno

you can stay latched for 4 top

are we playing the same build?

[sonic flame]

Eh when we were checking it, it was closer to 7

[fathom obsidian]

you gotta give us the same QA build

[golden coral]

xD

[fathom obsidian]

its better than live

[sonic flame]

well bucking wasn't changed so

might also be bugged

[fathom obsidian]

and pounce stam got nerfed so

🙂

[sonic flame]

That part I am aware of

[hollow canyon]

Soad, it depends on what your stamina was when you've used the pounce, if it was lower than max then it will take less time to throw you off

[fathom obsidian]

i dont get why your numbers are so different to live numbers

[sonic flame]

anyway according to what should be happening, you would be dealing enough bleed to cripple a carno even if it bucks, and enough to take it out if it doesn't

[golden coral]

@sonic flameFrom what I know, utah packs have already successfully bled out and killed stegos, even with this bugged bleed (assuming it wasn't that one off time it worked that is), so I don't know, I'm a touch worried on how this is going to do

[fathom obsidian]

i mean you guys did balance on different numbers at this point

[sonic flame]

however you are taking significantly less bleed than you should, and bucking might be fucked

[dawn falcon]

Cripple as in severely damage the blood gauge?

[sonic flame]

yeah as in drop to ~20%

ignoring movement

[hollow canyon]

Crippled as in - if it moves at all it dies

[sonic flame]

if it sprints it dies more like

trotting and walking would be fine

[hollow canyon]

Yea I meant more so running

[dawn falcon]

Oh my

[fathom obsidian]

a carno bucking 2 utah pounces walking go to 50% bleed

[hollow canyon]

trotting/walking should be fine at that point

[fathom obsidian]

thats too little bleed according to you

[hollow canyon]

Yea walking decreases the amount of bleed by quite a lot

[sonic flame]

Again, you are taking significantly reduced bleed damage atm due to math being fucked

[fathom obsidian]

yes

you are right

[sonic flame]

if you were taking full then yes, it would be a shit ton of damage

[fathom obsidian]

but guys pls do proper testing when you get it fixed in QA

its not an attack or anything

[spare badger]

Can someone pls explain the inertia thing?

[sonic flame]

I mean I am very sure this would've been ironed out more, however again, surprise hotfix balance patch caught us off guard as well

[dawn falcon]

Faster you move the slower your turn

[winged sierra]

telling QA to do their only job does seem like an attack

[sonic flame]

eh don't worry Kato it's fine

[golden coral]

Move faster, turn slower.

[fathom obsidian]

well as he said you got caught by surprise so its undestandable

[golden coral]

@dawn falcon! :p

[spare badger]

They added that In this patch?

[fathom obsidian]

and its not an attack

[sonic flame]

Tho this bleed buck wouldn't have been found until we got an actual bleeder in game

and as Utah is going to be our first proper bleeder, it's what led to us figuring that out

now as for bucking, I'll have to double check that, but ideally it would be your main counter to pounce

[fathom obsidian]

im sorry that kato got offended

[sonic flame]

since water stopping it is a bug

[dawn falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/terminalmontage-anime-anime-battle-mario-parallel-universe-gif-21337269

[sonic flame]

and the trees/rocks stopping it is janky as fuck and honestly hurts more than it helps

cause you could buck and waste your stam.... oooor

[fathom obsidian]

yeah, also that

[sonic flame]

just walk into a tree

[wintry mountain]

When trees/rocks and the water issue are ironed out

you'll have to bare in mind bucking will need to be actively used

meaning will still need to be somewhat cost effective on the user as it becomes the only reliable means of combat against pounce

[dawn falcon]

So like doing everything else would be way less efficient than bucking?

[fathom obsidian]

im relying on player not knowing how to buck to kill as utah now which is not ideal

[sonic flame]

Plus ideally Utah would have the agility to escape even when lower on stam

[wintry mountain]

^

[sonic flame]

so you can pounce them --> dismount with a bit of stam --> retreat and let the pack harass them --> come back and cycle

[wintry mountain]

In the end once bucking enters the forefront, Utah players should be expected to have the agility and skill to drag out the bucks

[sonic flame]

unfortunately due to shit being fucked, it doesn't work like that

[fathom obsidian]

yeah thats what we doing now

[sonic flame]

I mean that tactic does work, it's just not working as well as it should

[wintry mountain]

That cycle should remain as is, it simply just needs to be in the forefront

Trees/Water break it

[fathom obsidian]

right

[thin mantle]

Fucked shit indeed

😞

[sonic flame]

Utah will likely remain a glass cannon, it's just lacking a bit of the cannon aspect of that imo

[fathom obsidian]

btw im thankful you guys take time to excange feedback with us now i feel bad for kato

[sonic flame]

more just glass that is a little sharp but no big deal

[wintry mountain]

The fight should still be expected to drawn out, but atm there are too many things ingame preventing it from properly happening

[sonic flame]

It's no worries, we get a lot worse than this regularly lol

[wintry mountain]

I would never expect the nuke that was u3 utah to return, that was simply far too much

[thin mantle]

Like a bag of glass shards being thrown by a 4 yr old at a brick wall

[wintry mountain]

But making it so utah can actually preform is definitely a necessity

[fathom obsidian]

well my intent was not to attack but it was clear something slipped, my eng is also a bit of a barrier too., im sorry @winged sierra

i sound very direct cuz i dunt know how to word my phrases very well

[dawn falcon]

Whenever QA does something and it looks bugged as shit, I usually think “It’s supposed to be like this, but probably not as they intended”

[thin mantle]

I love how we’ve gotten to the point where we can accurately declare, “please just make this animal functional”

[sonic flame]

In a perfect world QA would have the time to test everything very thoroughly and we would have no bugs

[wintry mountain]

The ironic thing is, the bugs/features that are deemed as bad used to be acceptable when utah did too much bleed and damage

[thin mantle]

It’s fine, tbf your English is very good so don’t sweat it

[sonic flame]

unfortunately, things have to release at some point lmao, and QA doesn't get to choose that

[wintry mountain]

Because those two things were necessary as even buck couldnt save you

But now that utah has been toned down, these two things are far too much and are simply defeating the entire purpose of the changes

[fathom obsidian]

if you guys fix rock tree water, buck needs to stay strong

[wintry mountain]

Aye.

[sonic flame]

Buck will stay strong, at least for the time being

[fathom obsidian]

like as strong as now

[sonic flame]

it may be toned down eventually

but that is dependant on how pounce gets adjusted and other stuff

good thing is there's always next patch to adjust balance

[fathom obsidian]

also i think im the only one who likes inertia, makes you feel your weight

[thin mantle]

Ok Erik and I’s battle for literary dominance has tired me out so I will now be taking a nap, have fun discussing how sharp teeth should be😊

[wintry mountain]

Intertia is good

its just

far too much on the three small guys

[sonic flame]

Inertia is nice, but needs tweaking

[golden coral]

@wintry mountainThe water thing is just dumb. As for rocks or trees, I don't know, it would be nice with some kind of interaction but you're right in that the buck should always be your go-to for removing a pouncer.

[thin mantle]

It also needs a massive reduction for teno

Ok now I sleep Gnight

[wintry mountain]

o/

[fathom obsidian]

also i have a concern, im a fan of longer fight, but food needs to be tweaked a bit for that no?

like how much it take before starving i mean

[wintry mountain]

Aye

The longer fights are good

[golden coral]

Yes, longer lasting food and water times would be great

[wintry mountain]

but the game does not support them

least with hunger/thirst times

[sonic flame]

okay so feedback time yall

how much longer do you think hunger times should be

[tall bronze]

Long fights are good. But I do not want to return to legacy levels of long fights where it's just "let me stand here for 15 minutes as I slowly bleed out because I can't run away nor chase my attackers."

[sonic flame]

atm most animals sit around 45 min, give or take

[golden coral]

It depends on how you want the critter to play

[fathom obsidian]

as utah right now, lets say our pack find a lone carno we start to fight it for food, another carno comes and it bullies us out mid fight, we run without food and die

[wintry mountain]

I think personally the direction was good, but there were other elements that weren't accounted for to blunt

Which is on us

[lament gale]

an hour or more, depending on how the animal hunts/plays

[fathom obsidian]

or die trying

[wintry mountain]

But its why we have feedback

[golden coral]

The time is fine, the "bleed out cause no counter" is bad. :p

[tall bronze]

Yeah 😛

[sonic flame]

atm the exceptions are Teno who sits around an hour, and Stego/Deino who sit at around 1.5 hours

[wintry mountain]

Aye

[sonic flame]

also every single animal has ~30 min of thirst, it's a universal value

[fathom obsidian]

i think depends on animal, certain animals that kills their pray fast need to be kept the same, animals that take longer to hunt need a lil more time than right now

[wintry mountain]

Personally I'd do minimum 45 min - hour with the max being Hour and a half - hour 45

depending on size and the animals playstyle

[lament gale]

how it hunts

[wintry mountain]

Carno for example should be burning through food quicker as its such an active predator

[fathom obsidian]

yes i agree

[wintry mountain]

likewise utah being an attrition pack hunter should have a slower metabolism

[sonic flame]

making Utah's hunger last longer would for example allow it to afk grow nearly to adult before hunting anything

so that's something that needs to be accounted for as well

[fathom obsidian]

maybe just as adult?

[wintry mountain]

Diets would hopefully handle that

[fathom obsidian]

or thats not possible?

[lament gale]

you can adjust hunger times too

[sonic flame]

Juvis could spawn with less food as well

[wintry mountain]

Return to spawning with half hunger

[sonic flame]

Yeah

[wintry mountain]

[fathom obsidian]

also yeah an afk utah is gonna be weak with diets

[sonic flame]

Yeah

[fathom obsidian]

im glad diets are gonna fix afk growing

[golden coral]

Hunger changes with growth stage. Quick drain but little to fill up as baby, slow drain but high intake when adult.

[lament gale]

ye

[wintry mountain]

I am happy after things have cooled off

[sonic flame]

Technically possible, but not atm

[wintry mountain]

The general direction seems to be agreed upon just

Again certain things werent accounted for

[sonic flame]

think about how none of the juvis actually have different things like sprint times or whatever

[tall bronze]

I am so hyped for diets ;-;

[fathom obsidian]

also guys, is the food giving this little currently a bug?

[golden coral]

Hm. Well, diets then I trust, and how they work, would help there.

[tall bronze]

I really hate how juvies like Deino or Stego don't feel like juvies and instead feel like small adults. Like why does a juvie Stego still move and run like it weighs 6 tons?

[golden coral]

At least the wallow works for it ^^

[wintry mountain]

Changelog mentioned it was intentional. Longer hunger times will offset it regardless as you have more time to find food and thus more room to work with

[sonic flame]

Lack of time to animate things, with fractures coming up we have a massive amount of animations per animal

~20-30 anims per

[tall bronze]

[dawn falcon]

I might type a feedback based on what we’ve just heard since people look at balance feedback a lot now. Just wanna inform the community on what the fuck happened to Utah.

Thanks a

QA

[sonic flame]

so with that huge backlog, plus Pachy, there's not a lot of time for extra stuff

[tall bronze]

I know animations are important, but I meant more so how it actually moves 😛 Like juvie Stego still accelerates like a 6 ton adult

Or juvie Deino being super slow

[sonic flame]

Those values aren't set up to change with growth yet

[wintry mountain]

To be blunt, it was nobodies goal to make Utah useless, there was a goal for it, things were changed to meet that. Just, certain aspects of the game got in the way of this.

The general identity of utah will probably not change, it works as a large game attrition pack hunter

[tall bronze]

[wintry mountain]

We just need to fix some kinks in the system

[fathom obsidian]

also guys to stop this utah feedback can consider making the bleed bug a public knowledge or something?

[sonic flame]

Trust me I have a shit ton of stuff ready for when we can change these things

[sonic flame]

I mean it won't stop the utah feedback, we'll just fix the bug when it's fixed and toss it out

hopefully in a hotfix, potentially in update 4

[south root]

🍿

[fathom obsidian]

sup grimster

[fathom obsidian]

gotcha

[half jackal]

but why not fix it now

[sonic flame]

Well when the bug is fixed, it'll be fixed, but the patch that fix arrives with we have no control over

[half jackal]

awe

I thought you Qa people had a say in this

seeing you guys actually play the game

[dawn falcon]

The devs have a say

The QA help them I think

[sonic flame]

We have a say in things like "fix this" or "this sucks"

[wintry mountain]

i'd be pushing for these type of patches left in right if it was ultimately up to us personally

[sonic flame]

but we can't say "release this"

[wintry mountain]

Aye

[dawn falcon]

So basically the devs have a say in how the patches are but you have a say in balance and how things should work

[wintry mountain]

Have to be mindful of the devs work and what they want done too

[sonic flame]

nor can we tell them "don't release this"

[sonic flame]

eh that's still the devs, and they do read feedback here, but it's mostly them

[dawn falcon]

Ohhh

[half jackal]

so the people who have no idea how the game plays are the ones who have all the say in what gets released and when even though it doesn't make sense

[sonic flame]

it's just that QA also kinda has the secondary job of distilling feedback that is here sometimes

[dawn falcon]

The devs are the ones who program and shape the game. They know how it plays.

[sonic flame]

The devs are the ones making the game so they decide what gets done when (time permitting of course), as QA we can only do our best to make sure that when they decide to release it's as functional as possible

unfortunately time crunches make that less possible

this hotfix for example wasn't going to exist, but a bug forced the devs to patch it

[dawn falcon]

Rubberbanding I think?

[sonic flame]

someone found a game breaking error that couldn't be ignored, and it came at the same time as the balance so stuff couldn't be done

[half jackal]

thats the problem they should have been looking into this since the beginning

[sonic flame]

nah server crash and exploit

[fathom obsidian]

vegetation thing i guess

that was bad

[sonic flame]

It was like, someone was logging in with Hypsi and crashing servers with a third party program

so that had to be patched

because while the foliage is a really shitty thing to have happen, at least the servers don't crash from it

but yeah, that's how the hotfix blindsided everyone involved

[dawn falcon]

Wait a fucking second

Someone managed to MAKE a HACK that could CRASH a server????

Damn

[sonic flame]

yeah

shit was fucking wild

[stark knoll]

it wasnt exactly a hack according to filipe

but

[sonic flame]

yeah more of an exploit

[stark knoll]

the crashes were due to players

[dawn falcon]

Yeah exploit

[stark knoll]

yep

which is the big reason why the hotfix came out and why anticheat was in it

[fathom obsidian]

is the bush thing fixed too?

[dawn falcon]

It was definitely needed honestly

[stark knoll]

im unsure if the bush exploit was patched

[fathom obsidian]

hope so

[dawn falcon]

qas

[sonic flame]

unfortunately for us, the hotfix happened at the same time that we got the balance patch to test, so we were worried more about the exploit than the balance and shit got fucked

[stark knoll]

im on mobile

[sonic flame]

and since it was such a bad bug, it had to go ASAP

[fathom obsidian]

gotcha that explains everything

[sonic flame]

and the balance came with it

[dawn falcon]

So I’m assuming there’s a balance pass being worked on right now to help what got fucked up?

[sonic flame]

There's always another balance pass being worked on

[dawn falcon]

Or is it being left out for update 4

Ah

[stark knoll]

we were able to test fights but not really survival, especially with the longer dinos

[sonic flame]

just need to wait for enough feedback to be gathered to make a meaningful change

[stark knoll]

and balance is always wip

itll probably stay wip until the full roster is 100% complete and settled

[sonic flame]

i.e. every single change, no matter what, will have someone saying it sucks, so you need to give it time to see where the real issue lie and how to fix them

[stark knoll]

yup

[sonic flame]

plus I am willing to bet if we change nothing, players will figure out some crackhead strats that make Utah busted

[wintry mountain]

At the end of the day a lot prob wont be happy with the changes

[sonic flame]

in like, several months

[wintry mountain]

Many got used to the blitz fighting style of evrima

[stark knoll]

not even

[wintry mountain]

now that its changing

[fathom obsidian]

it will always stay wip i guess, ppl finding new metas, way to play etc

[sonic flame]

Carno tail biting moment

There's also the matter of we don't know what concerns are from actual issue, and what are from people not being used to the new changes

[stark knoll]

initial pushback will always be "change bad" and once that clears youll find feedback with actual meat in it

like how inertia fucks smalls

[sonic flame]

so about now is when the dust is settling, and we can actually start looking at feedback in a more meaningful way

Because now we know that people have gotten used to Utah for example, and their feedback isn't just "change bad"

[fathom obsidian]

thats a legend for me lol, i can easly juke carnos now as utah, better than U3.5

[golden coral]

Maybe you're just a very good utah xD

[fathom obsidian]

no

[stark knoll]

people focused so hard on the biteforce change without taking anything else into consideration that we werent able to see how people felt about inertia

just like deinos release

[hollow canyon]

Tbh this might be weird but I haven't felt it that much on Utah

[fathom obsidian]

the inertia thing i think its just getting used to it, but i only played teno stego carno utah as of now

so dunno on other playables

[stark knoll]

it is, but utah still feels too sluggish to me

[hollow canyon]

It's... there? But it didn't feel overbearing

I haven't got to play with adult Utah for a very long time though

[dawn falcon]

Man I can only imagine Utah with better inertia

Mmmm

[fathom obsidian]

also if you dodge the ram, teno claps on carno really easy now

[hollow canyon]

I think Teno in general is just about the biggest winner of those last patches aside from Stego ofc

[fathom obsidian]

update 3 they were more close but teno had an endge, now the edge is clear in teno favor, carno is now better at ambushing it tho

[hollow canyon]

it has like 90 seconds of run-time, and got its kick cost nerfed(although it's still lower than it used to be before it got buffed)

[sonic flame]

You know how it's been said a few times that 3.5 Utah had OC levels of balance? Kinda feels like that's Teno now

[hollow canyon]

I think it might just be the best animal aside from Stego in the game but that's just on paper I didn't get to playing it yet, I probably will give it a shot from Wednesday onwards

[sonic flame]

Animal is a little too strong, and Teno being strong means Carno needs to be strong means Teno needs to be strong means ...

[fathom obsidian]

imo right now teno and stego as super strong then deino carno also feel strong (that alt bite)

[stark knoll]

even after you get a hang of the system utah feels heavier than it should

[sonic flame]

Deino and Stego should feel strong tbf

[fathom obsidian]

yeah

ofc

[hollow canyon]

I agree its inertia could be decreased slightly

[fathom obsidian]

i think stego is ok like it is now tbh

[stark knoll]

that message sent late my b

[sonic flame]

Deino finally one shots Utahraptor with its bite, hope people are happy about that one

[fathom obsidian]

yes hypernova

thats good

[stark knoll]

imo tenos tailslam needs slightly lower damage

but i need to play with it more

[fathom obsidian]

wasnt nova tha oneshot filipe utah yesterday? lol

[stark knoll]

it feels pretty busted having cc and high damage

he did yup

[fathom obsidian]

he wasnt amused

hahah

[hollow canyon]

I personally think that it shouldn't be oneshotting a Utah

[stark knoll]

i put out a bounty that no one filled sadly

[alpine plover]

tbh People are crying because the roster is a joke.

[fathom obsidian]

deino oneshotting utah is fine, its supposed to have monstrous bite force

[sonic flame]

Yeah uh, I didn't mean to do that

[stark knoll]

tailslam oneshots utah on the head and neck

[alpine plover]

hipsy, dryo, Utah, Tenonto, Carno, Ptera . Yo let's put Stego and Deino besides them!!

[fathom obsidian]

you did what you do best, shit on utahs 😛

[stark knoll]

yea the roster makes balance hard

[sonic flame]

[valid sedge]

Tbh utah just needs to be more agile and have a better bleed with the pounce

[hollow canyon]

The roster is... ehhh how to put it - it has quite varied animals that all show tendencies towards different things - it both makes sense and makes it hard to balance

[dawn falcon]

Bleed is bugged

[sonic flame]

but yeah hard agree, Stego and Deino were mistakes, but rather than remove em might as well just let them do what they do

[stark knoll]

you want stego to feel like a stego and the next biggest thing isnt even 1/3rd its size

[fathom obsidian]

that will come form what i gathered here

bc bleed is bugged

[alpine plover]

Yeah, almost impossible.

[sonic flame]

Stego unforutnantly is the literal worst animal in its size range that could've been chosen

[dawn falcon]

What hyper mentioned about bleed :: 😁

[sonic flame]

yeah bleed fucked atm

[stark knoll]

high damage, high range, nearly omni directional attack on a 6 ton animal

[hollow canyon]

Alright I have a question regarding bleed - is it really bugged? Because whenever I played either as Utah or got pounced by one it seemed to work just fine.

[dawn falcon]

Look at the pic

[hollow canyon]

I've read that

[fathom obsidian]

math is wrong

[hollow canyon]

even before

[dawn falcon]

Hm

[hollow canyon]

but bleed seemed to be working just fine for me

[sonic flame]

Basically the bug is that you are supposed to take more bleed damage when you are less healthy, and there's a lot of stuff that factors into being healthy that I don't have the time or permission to explain

[hollow canyon]

I see, that's fine

[alpine plover]

I think adding Stego and Deino besides this current roster was a huge balancing mistake and nightmare. Especially because the devs said they want the smaller ones first. Stego came out of blue, why? I don't know, it doesn't make any sense. Deino was needed to create the base for aquatics? how about beipi, or literally any smaller semi aquatic?

[sonic flame]

however due to the bug, the point at which you are no longer considered healthy is way too low

[hollow canyon]

I was "full health" when I was bleeding anyways so I wouldn't have noticed

[sonic flame]

so you can be very unhealthy, and still take reduced bleed damage

[fathom obsidian]

oh yeah the bleed does apply fine, its just lower than supposed to be

[hollow canyon]

As in - I only took the damage from the pounce

[dawn falcon]

Stego came out because the ai wasn’t ready and it wouldn’t make sense leaving it out of the dust since it was pretty much almost done so they released it with update 2

Did I get it to go t

[valid sedge]

I think that they added stego because they were afraid that carno may had destroyed the other dinos

[dawn falcon]

Right

[dawn falcon]

Read what I said

[sonic flame]

Yeah Stego was going to be Ai, but the Ai sucked so it became playable instead of being removed

[hollow canyon]

it was added because the animal was ready but AI for it wasn't - it was supposed to be AI only at first

[sonic flame]

as for Deino, it was chosen because Beipi and Minmi weren't ready and Deino had a load of preexisting animations and was a part of the hope trailer

[alpine plover]

Well cool, now it's causing more problem than it solves.

[sonic flame]

yep

[valid sedge]

How many devs work at AI?

[dawn falcon]

Yep

[sonic flame]

1

[dawn falcon]

Yep to rly

Ryk

[sonic flame]

Ai is only Amarok

and he also does other things

[alpine plover]

This is the biggest problem with the Isle, the devs have a pretty good plan (in my opinion), but then it just go 3 ways and completely against what they wanted.

[sonic flame]

So Ai atm is one dev that also has other things to work on, like the server queue and stuff

Stego and Deino suffer hard from big fish small pond atm

they won't be issues when the roster is bigger, but until then they are causing problems

Deino not so much as its only an issue near water

but Stego

[dawn falcon]

I mean it’s good that they’re trying to release dinos for the roster, but goddamn it made so many more issues

[stark knoll]

id like to think that it could always be worse, but on the same hand it could be better

[fathom obsidian]

is collision being worked on...if cant say no worries

[sonic flame]

unfortunately it's not really an option to pull Stego and replace it with Kentro, so it either needs to just stay there and keep being a problem, or totally removed with no replacement as one isn't ready

[sonic flame]

backburner, it's being tested, but that's most things

[fathom obsidian]

cuz i saw some improvements in collisions

like trees and stego/deino

[sonic flame]

Collision is really hard to get right, and we have more important things, like fractures and nesting and skins and stuff

gotta get the game's major mechanics in place, then QOL can take the lead

[fathom obsidian]

so how does the hitboxes works now, is it still if i hit more than 1 it chooses the highest dmg one?

[alpine plover]

There will be a lot of outcrys of balance until the roster is big enough to have a healthy ecosystem. Because current one is everything but that. To be fair, besides Stego and maybe Deino, I think it's fairly good. I would probably buff Utah's bite to 75-80N and improve it's agility back a bit, but thats it.

[sonic flame]

It's chooses the highest one up to a point

i.e. tail tip will become tail if possible, and tail will become leg, but leg cannot become body, and neck cannot become head

[fathom obsidian]

ooh thats a nice change, i guess thats what fixed deino biting stego from back and dealing head dmg

[wintry mountain]

I'd imagine utahs playability to skyrocket when large animals that dont have a far reaching aoe come in

[sonic flame]

yeah, before it was just "take highest number" as a flat thing

[fathom obsidian]

yeah that was...something

[wintry mountain]

Hadrosuars and even some of the big theropods

[fathom obsidian]

much better now

[sonic flame]

Improving Utah's bite is a bit of a slippery slope, as that is a tool more meant for small game so it's a fine line between its intended purpose, and just being better than pounce

[stark knoll]

i can totally see utahs shredding things in the 3-6ton range

packs, that is

[wintry mountain]

I'd gone even higher tbh

[sonic flame]

Utah vs Maia is gonna be a bad day for the Maia I'm willing to bet

[stark knoll]

super bad

[sonic flame]

Para vs Utah as well

[fathom obsidian]

i wonder if maia weight will be realistic and its hp as consequence

[sonic flame]

hell even a Trike would struggle when being mobbed

[sonic flame]

That's the idea being mass = hp

[wintry mountain]

I'd say its best effective range is 4-7ish tons with it quickly tapering off against large apexes

[stark knoll]

stego is hard because of the long tail attack and i imagine anky will present that problem and more

[wintry mountain]

(8t+)

[sonic flame]

Hadros would be very tanky

and as such their attack would probably take a back seat

[stark knoll]

but hadros? pachrhino? hell maybe trike if theyre good? sure

[sonic flame]

health = mass gives a bit off leeway balance wise because you can more accurately predict the stats of future animals and make sure they slot in nicely instead of breaking the balance with each new creature

[fathom obsidian]

yeah i know kg=hp but i still dont know if its a good idea when more animals come in game, isnt gonna be hard to balance like that?

[golden coral]

Do we even have many 8T+ animals? I don't know what the "main" apexes fall in under as it stands right now.

[stark knoll]

what im trying to say is that on paper utahs current values (outside of a few problems ie inertia) are fine, great even. but in this roster its surrounded by its counters

[sonic flame]

Actually no, the hardest thing will be the smalls, with this in place the large animals are basically already layed out nicely

[stark knoll]

shant, possibly spino and rex, the sauropods

[wintry mountain]

Rex, Giga, Spino, Trike, Deino,

etc

[alpine plover]

I just think like this. I think Pounce should "replace" biting if the prey is big enough. ( End of midtier, etc) Bite should be favorable against smaller things, and 55N is not doing a really good job with that. It seems a little weak to me, but again It's not a huge problem. However if not the bite, some agility should definitely return to the Utah, because the agility of it got really trashed and I understand it why, but I think its a bit too much.

[sonic flame]

animals below 1 ton are really hard to get right, but above that everything makes perfect sense

[fathom obsidian]

yeah a 40kg troodon sounds hard to make it viable

at something

[sonic flame]

Agility was unintentionally trashed due to inertia

[stark knoll]

yea, you dont want the health to feel inflated

[sonic flame]

Just gotta make it hard to hit, Troodon is shown getting dunked on in every bit of concept art afterall

[fathom obsidian]

lmao true

[stark knoll]

lol

[sonic flame]

cause Troo isn't playing ball with the big boys, Teno is basically an apex to it

[stark knoll]

buff dryo bite to 40

[fathom obsidian]

ill play it tho, i will even play a compy, but my fav is gonna be dilo

[sonic flame]

You'll give Jaffad nightmares lol

[fathom obsidian]

im always for perfomance before new animals tho

so ill gladly wait

[dawn falcon]

We got rubberbanding patched

Now imagine what it’s going to be with FPS drops and microstuttering fixed

[sonic flame]

and then rubberbanding comes back

[alpine plover]

It might be me but, I think one of the bigget combat issue is Utah vs Utah Pounce. Like that's just horribly bad that you have no way to counter the exact same animal. Utah vs Utah pounce needs to have some form of counter, because probably thats one of the worst thing in the game that can ever happen to you. AND this would be fine if the "pouncer" would be bigger. But cmon, it's the exact same animal, you should have chance to get free from it.

[fathom obsidian]

gotta wait for that, it may start to rubberband back at some point

[dawn falcon]

https://tenor.com/view/flashback-seasamestreet-gif-10051490

[fathom obsidian]

exactly lol

[dawn falcon]

I want to think that rubberbanding is truly gone

[sonic flame]

Yeah that's why Utah had its pin toned down. Being pinned sucks because you just have to sit there and take it, no counterplay.

[dawn falcon]

Leave me alone

[fathom obsidian]

like deino drowning you 😦

no struggle, actives one at least

[sonic flame]

Yeah Deino's lunge and Utah's pin need a struggle/buck option

until then, they are just not fun to get hit by

"oh boy time to take most of my health in damage and die when I stand up because they bit me"

[alpine plover]

It needs to have counter when it makes sense.

[fathom obsidian]

well utah pounce being full bleed oriented you survive now the pin, you may even kill the utah and wallow on time

so its less frustrating (utah vs utah specially)

[alpine plover]

I'm acutally not mad if I get pinned down by a utah if I'm a dryo, because I don't expect to have a chance against it if its already on me, however if I'm a Utah with the same capibilites, it sucks.

[sonic flame]

It'd be nice if Utah and Pachy had some sort of "get the fuck off me" option

same with the other animals around Utah's size

[fathom obsidian]

pachy wont be pinned

[sonic flame]

not anymore it won't be

when Utah was still 500kg it could pin Pachy

[fathom obsidian]

yeah

[sonic flame]

and the Pachy could do nothing because there is no pin struggle

[fathom obsidian]

hope utah wont be bullied by pachy 1v1

[vagrant mural]

considering pin and lunge are more ambush oriented mechanics, I'm generally not bothered because yknow, hit the thing and get rewarded, pachy and other animals in that size range having counterplay options doesn't bother me, and a tug of war mechanic for deino on larger animals would be nice as well

[fathom obsidian]

hope its gonna be a 50/50 skill matchup

[sonic flame]

honestly it'll probably get dunked on if the Pachy lands a clean hit

that's if it can tho, Utah will hopefully be more agile

[vagrant mural]

current utah vs what I've seen of pachy looks like it favors pachy tbh

mainly due to utah being so sluggish

[fathom obsidian]

yeah but headbutt can be dodged i guess

i dont see pachy being very fast

[vagrant mural]

lmao

[stark knoll]

if a struggle is added then the pin threshold should be increased slightly imo

[dawn falcon]

Yeah missing the headbutt seems to stun Pachy a bit

[fathom obsidian]

i imagine pounce would do a fuckton of bleed to a pachy since its similar to utah size

[sonic flame]

Pounce would fucking shred Pachy

assuming that the Pachy doesn't buck

[fathom obsidian]

so they both have a chance it looks like

yeah ofc

[sonic flame]

course on the flip side, the Pachy can probably wreck your shit if it hits

[fathom obsidian]

thats good

mean you need to be good and dodge it

[sonic flame]

because the headbutt has the stun, but it also will deal fractures

so even if you live and get back on your feet, you've got fractures to deal with

which means you probably won't dodge the second one

[dawn falcon]

and I’m assuming the fractures make a huge difference in combat?

[fathom obsidian]

im fine with dangerous mechanics that have a way to play around while still having a chance

[sonic flame]

Well the specifics aren't worked out yet

but I'd fucking hope so lol

[fathom obsidian]

ideally if i dodge every headbutt ill fuck him up as utah

[sonic flame]

yeah

[fathom obsidian]

but maybe all i play will be pachy so who knows

50/50 fights are fun, hell even 3.5 utah vs teno 1v1 was super fun

a good teno would shit on you but you had a chance vs not so good ones

[winged bison]

how much hp does a fully grown steggo have? I saw they got buffed in patch notes but didn't see a specific number

[hollow canyon]

6000

[winged bison]

thanks! I was trying to see if deinos can still 1v1 kill steggos and you helped a ton!

[hollow canyon]

No, they can't unless the Stego messes up really badly

[dawn falcon]

The only way for it to be a 50/50 is if Deino is in a pair

2 deinos = 1 stego on land

[spare badger]

Yea
I feel like health matching weight is a bit of an overstep
It should be similar not the exact same imo

[hollow canyon]

I don't think that's the issue

There's a plethora of reasons why Stego wins heavily now, hp increase being one of them but not the only one

[dawn falcon]

^

[hollow canyon]

In general anything that prolongs this confrontation works in Stego's favour because its sheer damage can outperform Deino's initial burst that Deino typically gets to unleash onto Stego's head, the longer the fight goes on the more Stego's superior DPS matters.

Meanwhile the changes to the locational damage also make it more Stego-favoured since Deino can't bite through Stego's body anymore.

[grave veldt]

i havent played in many months but does deino still dunk on stego?

[sonic flame]

it shouldn't

[tacit oriole]

Another blow for Utah: Biting doesn't seem to keep pounce bleeds open

Actually, even subsequent pounces don't stop the bleed damage from the original pounce staying open

[golden coral]

Does a bite or pounce not keep the wound open or what do you mean?

[tacit oriole]

Correct

So the time for a bleed to heal on all dinos is 1:15